562: "Pretty Much Dead Already" (TWD S2E7 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Huh... Podcastica! What the hell you do? Change us back up! Why do your people have guns? Are you kidding me? You see? You see what they're holding on to? I see who I'm holding on to. Nah man, you don't.

[00:00:12] Let us do this, then we can talk. What you wanna talk about, Rick? These things ain't sick! They're not people! They're dead! Ain't gotta feel nothing for them, cause all they do, they do! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill!

[00:00:25] They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They kill! They do! They kill! These things right here, they're the things that killed Amy! They killed Otis! Ain't gotta kill all of us unless we do good! Hey, shut up! Hey, Herschel, man, let me ask you something.

[00:00:38] For the living, breathing person, could they walk away from this? Stop it! That's three rounds in the chest. Could someone who's alive, could they just take that? Why is it still coming? That's its heart! It's lungs! Why is it still coming? Shane, enough! Hey, you're right, man.

[00:01:01] That is enough. Welcome to The Cast of Us, a podcast dedicated to the show. Hey, Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 562. And this episode, we are covering The Walking Dead, season two, episode seven, Pretty Much

[00:01:49] Dead Already. It's a great title. So good. Kind of casual. We have a special guest with us today. It's Mr. Jonathan Buccalow. Welcome to the podcast, Jonathan! Yay! Hello, Jason, and hello, Lucy, and hello, Zedheads. Hello! Have you two podcasted before together? We have not.

[00:02:07] No, it's our first time. I finally got the call up to the big leagues. We coaxed him out of the barn. We were like, come on! That's a good one to be on. Jonathan, you might recognize his voice. He's called in. He's a longtime listener.

[00:02:24] He's also hosted a few shows now at Podcastica. On the Star Wars TV cast, he and his buddy James covered Andor. And then Kristen joined them for Ahsoka. And you also guested with us on Obi-Wan. I guess you're a Star Wars fan.

[00:02:41] Well, I've watched it once or twice. I feel quite strongly about the original movies and quite strongly about the sequels, as Jason does as well. Especially some of those directors in there.

[00:02:56] But let's keep it on The Walking Dead because I want to know what's your history with The Walking Dead and with the podcast. Well, The Walking Dead is what led me to the podcast and all of them.

[00:03:10] I watched the first season, didn't really get into it, and then came back to it. And I find that if you watch some things at a different time in your life or even a different season, they suddenly make sense.

[00:03:24] And so I watched it and then suddenly I'm just binging all the way from season one all the way to the end of season two. And then picked up the podcast and I've been listening ever since and writing letters, arguing on the Facebook page, calling in.

[00:03:42] The podcast has been a constant friend for many years now. I'm glad you found it. Yeah, you've been a supporter going way back. I remember you writing in early on. You picked this episode to come and guest with us on. I said, would you like to come on?

[00:04:01] And you picked this one. Why did you? I mean, I know we're going to talk a lot about it, so I'll find out what you think about it.

[00:04:07] But just did this come up right away in your mind when you were like, which one would I want to be on? Was it clear? Oh, yeah. 100%. This is one of those seminal episodes.

[00:04:18] These are the ones that expanded the whole lore and really, really brought me into the series. And this is what showed what The Walking Dead could be. The series was going along. This happened, then this happened, then this happened.

[00:04:40] And as you were saying in an earlier podcast, Jason, it was that things happened so they could have a story and they didn't necessarily connect. But then this one was so – it was planted so early and was just in the background of this whole season.

[00:04:59] And it kind of ebbed and flowed whether you were thinking about Sophia. And then that moment when she comes out of the barn – spoilers – was just such a gut punch and a shock and just such an amazing moment that you just couldn't wait to watch the next episode.

[00:05:17] Because suddenly it became more than just a horror thing. It just was such a – made you think so hard when that happened. It's interesting because there's so many people I've heard this is the episode that pulled them in.

[00:05:32] And we'll talk about – that's actually one of my points about why that is. But on first glance, it's kind of funny. It's almost like, yeah, this girl that everyone was hoping would be saved was a zombie. It's like, we love this show because we're masochists. That's why.

[00:05:53] That's what it seems like. There's a lot more to it than that. But it's just really interesting that this is the one. And I can see why. I mean, it really – but I don't want to unpack that right now because we need to get into it.

[00:06:08] Let's just talk about first, Lucy, what about you in general? How was it to revisit this one? Oh, like putting on an old horrible sweatshirt. Comforting and yet horrifying. Yeah. There's just a lot in this episode, a lot to kind of unpack and go through.

[00:06:26] And I really enjoyed revisiting it. Me too. I had forgotten how much of a build of tension this was all because of Shane. He's just – I think as soon as he finds out Laurie's pregnant, he's like, I'm going to kill all those zombies. Where's the guns?

[00:06:43] And so just that progression of him with Dale and then up to the end was so tense. I think that's another reason why this episode stood out to people. Even without Sophia coming out of the barn, what Shane does is pretty horrific. Like it's a – there's a lot.

[00:07:01] It was, yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. Like the Dale and Shane scene was really tense. It was. And then – and all the stuff in between too. But then when they're shooting the zombies, that is insanely tense because of what they're doing and Herschel's reaction to it.

[00:07:22] And then you think that's like enough, right? That's a tense fucking show. And then when Sophia comes out, it just raises up an even other level. Oh shit. Yeah. So. And with that level of tension – because, again, I binge this one. You know, life gets in the way.

[00:07:44] And so just – so leading up to this podcast over the last kind of ten days I've watched the season two. And that underlying feeling of impending doom is throughout season two. That you know something's coming. You know something's coming.

[00:08:03] And what I loved is how it lulls you into this feeling of we're just going to forget about Sophia. Where Carol and Darryl are talking. She's like, you know, you've tried so hard. I'm almost ready to let her go.

[00:08:16] And everyone's all – you know, there's all this thought of moving on. And then she just – then that moment when she walks out of the barn. It was just so horrifying. And so it just hits so hard. But I've loved watching this – the rewatch.

[00:08:32] It's been way better than I expected. I've enjoyed it way more than I thought. And at the end of each episode, I'm like, that was great. You know? It wasn't like, okay, let's get through the next one.

[00:08:44] It wasn't like, you know, a thing that you do trying to just do it. You know? It's not like an American film. You're pulling along, right? It's like a walk along the beach. Yeah. I've really been enjoying it. I mean I would argue – I have too.

[00:08:58] But in large part, that's because as I've been saying, that I really have come to care about the characters. And it's really fun to go back and see their early selves. But I also – I remember what it felt like to watch this the first time.

[00:09:15] I actually liked it pretty well my first watch through. But then when I went back to watch it again soon after for rewatches, I was like, man, this is slow. And where's the zombies? And even when I first watched it, I had some of those criticisms.

[00:09:28] And so it's a mixed bag for me. But I would argue that another part of the reason why this episode hit so hard is because it was such a slow build and maybe some would say too slow that it got us like jonesing for something, you know?

[00:09:44] Come on. It's like enough foreplay. Give me the climax. So then when it finally came, it was like, yeah! Yep. If you know what I mean. Jason is a demanding lover. I mean, all said and done, it was probably for the best. Yeah.

[00:10:04] Smoking his cigarette after she's come out of the barn. Started the podcast. All right. So, yeah, that's what I always do after sex. I explicate the hell out of it. So let's go. What did you think? Jonathan, how about your first point? Oh, all right.

[00:10:24] So I'd like – it's titled Should I Stay or Should I Go? You know, I think the whole theme of this season has been what they should do now. And should we stay at the farm? Should we go? Are we allowed to stay at the farm?

[00:10:42] Are they going to throw us out? Is Herschel going to recognise his own humanity and responsibility and let them stay? You know, but Rick's guilt is keeping him there. He blames himself for Sophia.

[00:10:56] But Shane wants to leave because he's feeling guilty over Otis and Shane wearing Otis' ill-fitting clothes at the funeral was one of the highlights. You know, just one-shouldered thing. But is Herschel right or wrong? And that, I think, is one of the great things of The Walking Dead.

[00:11:19] It does present a moral dilemma and there are two sides of it. It is important for should he keep the group or should he stay small and look after his own? And that scene with Rick when he's begging Herschel, don't send us back out there.

[00:11:36] It's not whether you live or die. It's who you become. Trying to say it's not whether we live or die. When we go out, we will just turn into horrible people and you as a good man, can you let that happen?

[00:11:48] And so I found that question throughout the series and this episode one of the great interesting themes. And I think there are two sides of it. You know, Herschel's right to want them to go. Maggie's right for wanting them to stay.

[00:12:05] Rick's, they're all of course right to want to stay as well. So I thought that tension throughout the series and this episode was really good. Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:14] I mean it gets you thinking about future events too because Rick's talking about it turns you into a horrible person like you said. And we see they do end up forced off the farm and they do end up getting a lot darker.

[00:12:30] And also he says, if he's, my wife's pregnant. If you send us out there, it's a death sentence. And that's exactly what it ended up being. Ended up being, yeah. Yeah, a lot of things came to fruition. But all these, a lot of threads started here.

[00:12:49] And you know, this is one of those open door or sliding door moments. You know, what would have happened if they stayed at the farm? Yeah. They all decided to pay.

[00:13:00] On a previous podcast I was saying, you know, we got, I got so tired of the theme, how dark would you go to protect the people that you love in this world? But that theme wasn't even there in the first season very much.

[00:13:15] Maybe you can argue, but I'm like, oh wow, we haven't even gotten to that yet. And I got tired of it.

[00:13:20] And here is really where it starts to be introduced this season because Shane is like the prototypical, oh, he's the one who thinks you should go dark and Rick is resisting it. So he Rick isn't even going there yet, but he shoots Sophia here.

[00:13:33] So maybe that's like his first step down the road. And the next episode he kills two living men. Right, right. Yeah. And it's a very, it's a watershed. Like, oh, this is Darabont's final, huh? One is showrunner then. Because I remember Glenn Mazzara. That was his first one.

[00:13:51] Nebraska. Oh, the second half of season two. Yeah. This route. Yeah, it's interesting. He couldn't agree with AMC anymore. And okay, Lucy, what about you?

[00:14:04] Oh, I feel like there's so much I haven't quite got my head around it yet, even though we've been preparing for this for days. I think I'd like to talk a little because I think we're going to talk a lot about Sophia in this episode.

[00:14:18] But I want to talk a little about Daryl and Carol, particularly Carol, who I think you're right, Jonathan, she has. You get a sense in this episode that Carol's almost come to a kind of peace with how things are.

[00:14:30] Like she's recognizing the efforts have been made in the conversation might be moving on. What I found really interesting is how shitty Shane is to Daryl at the start of this episode. He just undermines him.

[00:14:49] He talks sort of they come to blows because Daryl's like, you know, we found her doll the other day and she's like, oh, you found her doll? Like he's really like quite. And he's being talking about his buck knife and just, you know, being a dick.

[00:15:07] Shane would have come across guys like Daryl all the time as a policeman, you know, the local troublemaker. And so I think that's kind of goes back. And of course, you know, Daryl's opinion of the police would be kind of fixed.

[00:15:23] So there's all that background without them just being too strong guys going at it. But it's like we're getting past where people because they're getting to know each other and also societies and labels are kind of gone.

[00:15:38] And, you know, Rick said in season one, there's no N word anymore. And so now when Shane is just sort of triggered or whatever, he just falls back on all that. And I have he says, let me tell you something else, man.

[00:15:51] If she was alive out there and saw you coming all messed out with your buck knife and geek gears around your neck, she would run the other direction.

[00:15:58] And it absolutely triggers Daryl all to hell to start being an absolute dick because he calls Carol a bitch, which I was not happy about. When they have their little set to in the stables. But fair play to Daryl. He does apologize for it later.

[00:16:15] The two of them kind of reconcile and they're looking at some Cherokee roses. And he's the one who holds her back when Sophia is coming out of the barn.

[00:16:24] And obviously there's a very powerful mirror of that in season nine and season nine and season 10 with Henry and the whispers. I can't remember what happens was Henry a zombie and Daryl. What happened? No, when she sees the head on his head cut off.

[00:16:42] Yeah. When she sees the heads on the right, Daryl is holding her back saying, don't look. That's right. That was a great moment. Awful. It's great. So good. And you see Daryl, it's funny, he is still a team player, though.

[00:16:55] Like when Shane hands him a gun, he takes the gun and walks with him. But what's interesting is when Shane is going all out trying to shoot the Zeds coming out of the barn. Initially, Daryl is marking Rick and making sure that Rick doesn't.

[00:17:10] He's marking the Zed that Rick is carrying on the leash. Right. And I was like, that's really interesting. Daryl is actually looking out for the team here, looking out for Rick. He's very protective.

[00:17:21] Yeah. Where Shane is more focused on this mission of like, I'm going to kill everyone in the barn. He does kill the one next to Rick, though. He does eventually. Yeah. I had to go back and double check that.

[00:17:31] But that is such an interesting move because it's like, come on, Rick, you have to get involved. Like there's so much in that moment. Then Rick gets involved. I just think Carol and Daryl in this episode are both really strong. And poor Carol, that bit at the end.

[00:17:48] I had to rewind that moment and put the subtitles on. I'm like, did he just call her a stupid bitch? Yeah, I know. I was like, sorry. Yeah, he did. Whoa, Jesus.

[00:17:57] I was like, what's because she's saying, you know, hey, maybe she's gone and I don't want to lose you too. And he's like, you stupid bitch. And I'm like, whoa, what was that all about?

[00:18:09] And I think it could have been either that he was triggered or that he didn't want to give up hope and that he's mad that she did. Or he just doesn't know what to do when someone expresses care and affection for him or a combination of both.

[00:18:24] Yeah, or all of the above. I have another take. And because my next point is relationships. And so one of them is the Daryl and Carol thing. And she turns to him at this moment and she's like, I don't want to lose you.

[00:18:42] And she's looking at him with more than just friendly affection. I think so. She's like, I can't, you can't lose you too. And that's when he looked at her and he's like, he has that expression of what?

[00:18:55] And he suddenly realizes, this is how I interpret it, realizes that she has romantic leanings towards him. He's like, oh, leany be, stupid bitch. I thought that was. But I think that's kind of related to what I said about not knowing what to do when someone shows affection.

[00:19:11] But I do think early on in a relationship, a lot of times it's not clear to either party maybe what it could be or what it is. And I feel like that's kind of where they're at right now and later on.

[00:19:25] But even with Carol in the prison, she says to him, you want to fool around at one point and she played it off like she was kidding. But I think if he would have said yes, she would have been okay.

[00:19:35] But then over time, like no, like now that would never happen. But yeah, I felt like that was there too. But I've had relationships like that with people where we're in a being of should we, shouldn't we? And then you become great friends, you know.

[00:19:49] Or you go out and do it. Or never see each other. That's the third choice. Speaking of Shane and Daryl, I love that. It made me wish that we could see more of Shane.

[00:20:05] I always wish that, you know, as much as I thought it was a great ending for him. But what would like what would Daryl and Shane's relationship have evolved into?

[00:20:13] Would they have just been even more and more pissed with each other over time or would they have grown to respect each other? We'll never know. I just don't think Daryl would be Daryl if Shane was still around.

[00:20:22] I think he would have had the chance to grow into that role. But I know what you mean, Jason. It would be really interesting to see. Yeah, yeah. That's I didn't think about that. But maybe that makes me sad to think about. Yes. All right. My turn? Yes.

[00:20:36] Okay. My number one is called Built for this World, which they kind of focused in on that concept of what it means to be built for the zombie apocalypse. With Shane and Dale in particular, when that was such a tense scene and Shane's like, give me those guns.

[00:20:52] Dale's about to shoot him but can't bring himself to and says what this world was made for you, for guys, people like you. And he told Andrea, you know, you don't know him. And I think what he mean, he didn't say it to Andrea. Maybe he should have.

[00:21:09] But he should have said, you know, he had his gun trained on Rick for a while out in the woods. He's got that in his head. And he even though he doesn't know, he really did figure out that Shane killed Lotus and he shot him. He knows.

[00:21:22] So he knows that Shane is a cutthroat kind of a guy. So I guess that's what I mean. Built for this world. Does that mean it's interesting to think about that. What that means. Shane tells Lori Rick ain't built for this world.

[00:21:39] And when Shane lets the zombies out of the barn, he says enough risking our lives for a little girl who's gone enough living next to a barn full of things that are trying to kill us enough. Rick and ain't like it was before. You want to live?

[00:21:53] You want to survive? You got to fight for it. So what he's saying is Rick, you're too soft. You're you're carrying what other people think at the expense of our own safety. It's going to you need to step up and make the hard choices.

[00:22:04] And if anyone goes against you, you either force them to go along or kill them. I think that's what it means for Shane to be built for this world and sort of for Dale to I mean, yeah, it's the same thing. Just killer be killed basically.

[00:22:19] And and Shane blames the rig for having lost Jim and Amy didn't mention Ed. So Rick is circle of care is too big because he was off trying to say Merle at that point. And he just cares about too many people.

[00:22:36] And Shane's like, you should pick the people that you care about and everybody else you kill if they get in the way over time. Rick's circle of care shrinks. But then I think and I want to explore this more as we go along.

[00:22:50] But I think it expands out again, maybe because of Negan actually in reaction to Negan and thinking how do I can't be like him. I got to be better. But but anyway, before that he gets really dark.

[00:23:02] So that'll be fun to track when Rick tells Shane that Laurie's pregnant. His first thought is we need our guns. So I think he's like, oh, I have a baby. We need to kill those zombies. He knows right away what he's going to do.

[00:23:15] So his circle of care just expanded by one more person. You know, now it's Laurie Carl and this new baby.

[00:23:21] And and he's going to do it no matter what, even though it's not his land that the person whose land it is absolutely doesn't want him to do that. Okay, I don't care. So that's what built for this world means to him.

[00:23:34] Now I was asking myself, is Shane right? That Rick's not built for this world. In hindsight, I would say, no, he's wrong. But only because Rick is changing.

[00:23:44] And as he said, like you said earlier, Jonathan to Herschel, he says, this world is much worse than what you saw on TV and it changes you either into one of them or something a lot less than the person you were. Don't send us out there.

[00:23:57] So Rick doesn't know how true that is. Later in Alexandria, Carol's like, if we get comfortable here, we let our guard down. This place is going to make us weak. Rick says it's not going to happen. We won't get weak. That's not in us anymore.

[00:24:12] We'll make it work. And if they can't make it, then we'll just take this place. That's what Shane is saying right now. Yeah, he's turned into Shane in Alexandria. Pretty much. He's not quite as bumbling about it.

[00:24:25] I mean, if you're talking about who's built for this world, who's alive and who's dead? Shane. Yeah, that's right. Shane is too. He's not crafty enough. You know, he got himself killed because he was just brute force trying to brute force it. The ZA is chess.

[00:24:42] It's not checkers. You have to think ahead. You have to plan. And maybe that's what Rick is always trying to do, is that he went after Merle for the peace of the group.

[00:24:53] And it was the right thing to do, but also to maintain the harmony of the group. But I think it's also a question of can people make the hard decisions? And the hard decision is to move on from – obviously, Sophia is dead after five days.

[00:25:08] And that's what changes with Rick over time. He's able to more make those hard decisions. And we saw him do things like bite Joe the Claimer's throat out. You know, he went too dark. He shot at random people that turned out to be from the kingdom.

[00:25:23] He told his people to go to the sanctuary outpost, kill everyone in their sleep without knowing if any of them were maybe being forced to work for Negan. It doesn't matter.

[00:25:32] He told him to go to the Grady Hospital where Beth was being held and just kill everyone there, even though Daryl, I think, talked him out of that. And there were good people there.

[00:25:42] So when Shane says to Laurie, Rick isn't built for this world, Laurie says, you're wrong. You're wrong. And I wonder, at least in hindsight, I'm retconning that to mean you don't know him like I do. You don't know what potential he's got in there for darkness, you know?

[00:25:57] So let me see. I had a lot more. I don't need to go through the whole thing. But, yeah, I just love that that that contrast of and how the characters this we know how they change over time and who makes it and who doesn't.

[00:26:13] And so thinking in terms of who's built for this world, what does that mean? Was it really take and does it really take all that like, you know, built for this world? I feel like it's not even that much about the zombies.

[00:26:26] It's about dealing with people like the governor, Negan and Shane in this instance, like dealing with people like you is if you got to know how to deal with people like you, like, are you capable of the violence that it requires to stay alive?

[00:26:44] And then is it worth protecting people that aren't, you know, eventually, you know, the The Walking Dead becomes survival of the fittest with each season. Those that aren't fit to survive don't. And even some that are don't, you know, because it's such a dangerous place.

[00:27:03] You know, you need to be prepared to be violent and accept violence, you know, in order to survive. But then the the continued struggle in The Walking Dead is holding on to humanity.

[00:27:16] I just covered Squid Game and I don't want to give too much of that away for people who haven't seen it.

[00:27:23] But there's a time in that series where you realize that anything goes, that in order to win the squid game, you can kill anyone and they're all sleeping in the same place. So you're not safe at night anymore.

[00:27:37] And that got me thinking about how society developed, because I think that's how it was for people before we started organizing into societies. If you were out and you saw someone you saw something you didn't know, it was kill or be killed. And so that's why civilization developed.

[00:27:51] So we could have laws and rules and things to keep us feeling safe and people to enforce those laws in order that we didn't have to worry about our survival in our lives all the time.

[00:28:00] And we could do other things like arts and, you know, just the development of humanity. And so now all that is kind of taken away. But in order to bring it back, you need strong leaders who can inspire people to be organized.

[00:28:14] So you need people who do care about more people, but they have to be really skilled at getting everyone else invested in that. Right. So. So right now they're early on and Rick is trying to be that person.

[00:28:25] But Ezekiel ends up being the one at the end in the Commonwealth. I talked way too long. Sorry about that, guys. No, I'm sitting here listening. That's my longest point. I can actually talk back listeners. This is what it's like. It's good isn't it?

[00:28:42] Talk back is your turn. What do you got next? I disagree with everything said Joe. Here is my list of grievances from the last 10 years. Number one. Let me take you back to what you said in episode three. All right. So relationships.

[00:29:05] I'd like to give my impression on the status and motivations for various relationships as they appear to me as I've watched season over the last week or two. And of course, up for discussion and I may have it completely wrong.

[00:29:20] And I'm kind of doing this all a bit of tongue in cheek as well. Let's start with Daryl and Carol. I thought it's a bit of the beauty in the beast because Daryl is the beast and Carol can see the good in him. Will they, won't they?

[00:29:36] And this ignited a fierce debate on the Facebook chat. I'd check in on the Facebook group if you're not a member. We're closing in on 700. So come and join us. And this just thread after thread people going back about their relationship with Daryl and Carol.

[00:29:55] And so we correct that Carol is around 40 in The Walking Dead. I think so. Or late 30s. I checked their ages. Yeah. I mean, Melissa McBride was, I think 46 and Norman Reedus was 42. But as far as the characters, I don't know. Yeah.

[00:30:14] Because it appears that she is older. But not a whole lot. Just a few years. I kind of thought that they were playing Daryl younger, like Beverly Hills 90210. They're all kind of 36 but they're playing teenagers. Yeah, maybe so.

[00:30:32] So I thought that he's kind of meant to be around 25 or something. Yeah, it was like the late 20s, early 30s. Yes. So I think there's a good 10 years gap between them. But in the beginning I've always found that them being shipped was kind of odd.

[00:30:51] But now that I'm watching this again, I see that she does desire him as her protector and there is a relationship there. And the show actually has some awkward pauses where they're about to kiss but I found it's a very one-way thing.

[00:31:11] But then there was that scene with the leave me be, stupid bitch, which I thought was like, that's really intense between these two. So I don't know. What are your guys' thoughts on it? I know you've done it a million times.

[00:31:26] I've always loved them as a platonic thing. But what I was thinking about when I was watching this episode is at this point we're still pretty in comic land for a lot of it. And Carol in the comics is very different when it comes to relationships.

[00:31:48] And at one point I think at the prison she wants to be a throuple with Rick and Laurie. She wants to be part of their marriage. Really? Yes. That's right. I'm not making that up. That does happen.

[00:32:00] And I think is she with Tyrese for a bit in the comics as well? There's someone she's with who does not want to be with her and this leads to her, spoiler alert, her end in the comics. I won't say too much about it.

[00:32:14] So I wonder sometimes if they were still toying with that in this and that's why they have her be a bit more… Because I think it doesn't seem to me that there was ever really any potential for a romantic relationship.

[00:32:30] And I don't know that that's what they were leaning towards. But for Carol's character at this point, if we were sticking closer to the comic book trajectory, it wouldn't be bananas. It would make a little bit of sense with where she ends up in text.

[00:32:46] What do you think, Jason? Go Carol! Yeah! Very progressive. I remember being kind of annoyed with Carol in this season but I can't remember if that was a little bit later on or if I was feeling that way right now.

[00:33:02] I remember when she was mad at Carl in one of the episodes coming up but I can only remember the bad lip reading where he says, and she goes, he said, but I can't remember what actually happened in the episode.

[00:33:18] But anyway, so it's hard to recapture the feeling I had about Carol back then because now I know her character and where she goes and at this point… What a character arc she's had. Yeah, and I'm fully not annoyed with her at all.

[00:33:34] When she was talking about maybe Sophia's actually gone, I was like, oh man, yeah, she's really just starting to grapple with that. And then she expressed, like, I don't want to lose you too and I was like, oh yeah, that's so nice and sweet.

[00:33:47] And then he called her that, the bitch, and then I was like, what a… Fuck you dude, shut up! So I'm fully on her side here. But as far as a relationship between Carol and Daryl, I love them as friends.

[00:34:01] I was never, I don't think like, oh God, if they got together, that would just be the worst thing ever. But I'd rather, I mean, it's like me and you Lucy or me and Karen, it's nice to just be friends. Men and women can be friends.

[00:34:17] Yeah, men and women can be friends and that's nice. But I guess not on the internet, you know. I once had a massive… So this does have a point. I once went to see a masseuse and she was like,

[00:34:27] oh, I can tell a lot about a person from their energy. And I was like, all right, okay. And she's like, let me guess, all of your close friends are male? And I'm like, what? No. And then I was like, oh, actually, no, yeah,

[00:34:38] a lot of my close friends are male. Well done. Because I don't know, when you're younger, you think that's impossible and then you're like, oh no, like, yeah, yeah, that is true. Well done, masseuse lady. Thank you for verifying that fact. But yeah, it's interesting.

[00:34:53] I watched Apple TV, the series Platonic with Rose Byrne and Seth Rogen. Really good. Really good. Kind of explores this in a bit more detail. Oh, it does? Oh yeah, okay. Rose Byrne gets to use her Australian accent, which I love. Oh, she does.

[00:35:08] Yeah, I photographed her years and years ago on a boat. Yeah, she was a gorgeous, sweet girl. Yeah, absolutely. A long, long, long time ago. All right, so then Dale and Andrea. This is an interesting one. And it really surprised me, Jason,

[00:35:24] when you said about their relationship in the comics. That kind of is very interesting. What did I say? It seems like they actually have a – they get together. Yeah. But it's much different because Andrea is way younger, way younger. Like she's 25 and he's 65 in the comics. Yeah.

[00:35:45] And that seems like, oh, in today's day and age, that's problematic, it's wrong. In the comic, I thought it was beautiful. They were both just very respectful of each other. Andrea was a kick-ass character, not like she is in the show by a lot of accounts.

[00:35:59] And so it's just almost like two whole different characters, I thought. Yeah. They never played it as creepy in the comics. They always played it as an actual relationship that they had, which I thought was quite cool. Right. Yeah.

[00:36:12] I mean, I would hope no one would ever play their relationship as creepy. The comic doesn't shy away from some very awful sexual things and like – Oh, yeah. Right. But it always – in the comics, it was taken seriously as a relationship.

[00:36:27] It wasn't like, oh, this is creepy or this is – Yeah, because in this, it seems creepy because he seems like an old man hiding his desire for Andrea behind his care for her, where it seems he's like a – you know, he's in the friend zone,

[00:36:43] but one day she'll realize that I'm the one for her and he's hanging around and trying to manipulate her, trying to isolate her. And the reaction that he had to when Shane and Andrea hooked up

[00:36:59] when they had danger sex in the car and then he came back and of course – Of course. He's like, Shane, you should leave. Straight away. Yeah, yeah, Shane should go. I just have this feeling that it's time for him to move on. I know who I hate, Shane.

[00:37:13] Like, okay, cool. Yeah. But he's so jealous of Shane. It seems that Dale can't accept the decline of his influence and his power, you know, as a younger man. You know, it's like I think this is why the Boomers never retire is they can't,

[00:37:31] you know, they can't let go. But so I find that was a hilarious scene where Shane just – I mean, Dale was so obvious with his jealousy of Shane. Yeah. But to his credit in this episode, he says, you know, I mean,

[00:37:49] I think everything you said is right and he is manipulative at times. Like I couldn't think of the line but he's saying we've all wanted to shoot Daryl. I think he's just sucking up to Andrea because she needs –

[00:38:02] she's, you know, in a one down position there or she's feeling bad. But also mixed in there is just some genuine care that's nice, you know. Of course. Yeah. He doesn't want his friend to kill himself whether he's in love with her or not.

[00:38:16] That's still like – and here in this episode, she's telling him I'm okay and he's like, you don't know what kind of a person Shane is. And she's like, it's okay, Dale. And he's like, okay, I'm done. And I really got the feeling that he meant that, you know.

[00:38:31] And so at least he's like – he finally seems to be getting the message. Yeah. But I love Andrea's reaction is like she's kind of – sometimes gives him this quizzical look and he's like, are you hitting on me?

[00:38:48] But I think the intention was to end up getting them together in the show too. And then Geoffrey Dumond wanted to leave because Frank Darabont got ousted. But it really – maybe in my opinion, if they were planning on that,

[00:39:06] they maybe should have changed their plans because it just doesn't feel good between those two characters. Maybe they could have made it work, but up to now, I'm not into it. Did Dale in the comics look like Dale in the show? Yes. The hat is canon, I believe.

[00:39:20] He looked maybe older actually. Older. That's so interesting. That's so interesting. But I guess when the world – there's not a lot of options. That's kind of what I – one of the things I – I mean it was just a great relationship because they were both cool people.

[00:39:35] But one of the things I liked about the idea of the comic and even in the execution of the comic is, okay, all of our social mores are gone. We don't have to adhere to any of these anymore if we don't want to.

[00:39:47] And so whether you agree with that or not, I thought that was cool because they're just like, hey, we like each other. Let's just go for it. Yeah. All right. So Rick, Shane and Laurie. And we have the – this is just for me to kind of clarify

[00:40:03] to make sure that I'm on the right kind of thing with the relationships here because when you're sitting there on your own watching – this is why we all listen to the podcast – you've got the classic good guy and the bad boy fighting for dominance

[00:40:16] and then to claim Laurie and the child. It was such a – like Rick knows but Shane doesn't know he knows and this leads to one of their demise. And of course Laurie said, you know, why did this happen? And she was like, I wanted to feel something, anything.

[00:40:35] And anything would have been better than sleeping with your husband's best friend even though you knew he was dead. It's just going to cause trouble. And then it was so interesting to see when Shane pleads his case, you know,

[00:40:52] and he says, we've carried on quite a bit and everyone knew. And so this whole group knows about it. And then he just literally claims the child is mine and she's – and so that is such a dangerous dynamic within the group.

[00:41:09] Although Laurie in the earlier episodes appears to put an end to it and a hard down, she doesn't want him to leave, she wants him to stay, she goes to him occasionally, has kind of intimate moments with him. He can't forget it.

[00:41:24] And all this is going to end in is someone's death. So it's such a fraught relationship. And it's also really sad to see like the split between Shane and Rick as well because they are brothers, you know.

[00:41:44] And so I'm just – I was also wondering because I couldn't quite – wasn't sure, does Shane know that Rick knows in the end about their affair? I don't think he knows yet. No. Because he's like congratulations and Rick kind of nods awkwardly.

[00:42:04] But wasn't there a scene in this or the end of last episode when Rick goes, I know, I know about Shane, but Shane doesn't know Rick knows, right? Yeah. That was just between Rick and Laurie. Yeah, right.

[00:42:19] So Shane tells Laurie the baby's his and Laurie says it's Rick's. But then she goes, Shane, I'm sorry, but even if it's yours, it's never going to be yours and there's nothing you can do to change that.

[00:42:33] And like a couple episodes ago when Shane was ready to leave, he's like, this is not working. I need to leave. Andrea's like, can I go with you? Then Laurie goes, stay. And my criticism was that she didn't say,

[00:42:47] I want you to stay because you have a relationship with Carl and your help around here, but it doesn't have anything to do with us, okay? But now she's being direct. It's not yours. It's never going to be yours even if it was yours.

[00:43:01] It's not – she's saying Rick's my husband. I love Rick. She should have made that clear earlier. And now – because then Shane would have maybe decided to leave, having that information or at least he wouldn't know. But now that Shane thinks – and he's right, I think,

[00:43:16] that she has his baby, it doesn't matter what she says. So she's chosen the wrong time to be direct. And I think that in-story makes me feel more critical of Laurie and probably a lot of people. But I think it's just a soap opera thing.

[00:43:29] It was how can we do this to ramp up the drama even more? Let's get Shane to stick around thinking maybe there could be something and then find out that it's his baby, but Laurie tells him to leave.

[00:43:42] I really hate the trope of woman gets pregnant because adultery. I can't stand it. I forgive it in The Walking Dead because we get Judith and it's fine. But like I was reading – I've been reading a poem from like 1560s today for work.

[00:44:01] It's a poem about an adulterous wife and the narrator is laughing because lo and behold she gets pregnant, serves her right. And I'm like, oh my God, come on lads, have we not? But also then I'm like, Laurie, contraception exists even in the zombie apocalypse. Be smart.

[00:44:17] But maybe it is the older story of mankind, of people having affairs and people getting pregnant and secret relationships and marriages that aren't great but you have to stay in them and then you move without them.

[00:44:34] But then everything is so intensified by this situation because it's life and death. I think it goes – like for me the zombie apocalypse leads to us kind of devolving two or three hundred years, five hundred years, going back a thousand,

[00:44:54] going back into medieval times where it's small settlements fighting against each other and you have to have hard men on the walls to protect yourself. And also there's bands of horrible men out there going to just take things.

[00:45:12] And so I found it really interesting when Shane was pleading his case, it was as a protector and he's like, who protected you? Me or Rick? How many times he saved your life. Yeah, that one. You seem like a little kid. How many?

[00:45:30] By my count that's only one. And you're like, okay, well, fuck that mate. Yeah, so well, it's an intense relationship and it's interesting how soap-opery it is. And okay, my last one is how I like to look at it, it's the manipulation of Glenn by Maggie.

[00:45:57] Poor young Glenn that doesn't know anything, he's very innocent. And it seems like it was teenagers dating and there's an argument over what happened at the bowling alley rather than discovering a whole band of walkers in the bar that could be dangerous to everyone

[00:46:20] because she kind of gives him the silent treatment and he's pleading after and she's walking away, she has this light smile on her face and okay, I'm reading him in, I'm reading him

[00:46:32] and then he's begging for her to talk to him and he smashes her on the head with the egg which is still kind of flirty, you know, they have that kind of flirty thing. I use that all the time, yeah, in bars. Yeah, exactly.

[00:46:50] But then when he makes his speech of I will do anything to protect you, you know, the walkers are dangerous and I forgot they were which I thought was very interesting. It immediately, once she has his dedication and knows that he will protect her and be with her

[00:47:10] then he offers to wash his hat and then Glenn takes the gun but then asks permission if he's allowed to go and shoot the zombies. And so it was very interesting how fast that went from running into each other on the veranda

[00:47:25] to a full-on relationship where you're each asking permission from each other or approval in like four or five days but then again, that's the zombie apocalypse. I love that he asks her before he joins in the shooting, I think that's so important

[00:47:43] because what Shane does to the Greens is awful. They're definitely not getting to stay on the fucking farm after that. As far as Herschel's concerned, Shane's massacring his family and friends.

[00:47:59] And in a way, Sophia coming out is a bloody good thing because it gives them something to be like well you didn't tell us Sophia was on the farm. I kind of wonder that's why Rick shot Sophia because he hadn't shot anyone else.

[00:48:14] But I think in part maybe it was like, because Rick wants to stay on the farm and he's like look if we're gonna have this rule that zombies aren't people then now someone comes out that I actually kind of care about, it's my fault she's like this

[00:48:30] I'm gonna show them that it goes across the board, not just your wife and kid but our child too. Something like that. I really judge Shane for not shooting Sophia. I think it was a great story moment though because Shane's supposed to be the one that's the badass

[00:48:51] and Rick is soft and Rick ended up being the one to do it and that just shows who's gonna go on in the series in a weird twisted way. But as far as Glenn and Maggie, I just think it's kind of interesting that

[00:49:05] so Maggie's mad at Glenn for spilling her secrets and that's the conflict between the two of them about the walkers in the barn. But it turns out, I think, that well Glenn reveals that the reason he did that is because he wants her to be safe

[00:49:23] he cares about her, he doesn't want her in danger. So he did it because of his love for her so it's really sweet. And I think that she's mad at him for a similar reason because we see she's coming around to

[00:49:35] she calls the zombies walkers, she tells her dad, you know, you think they're sick but one almost killed me so maybe in the pharmacy that's when she changed her mind about that, when Glenn saved her.

[00:49:47] But so I think the reason she's mad at Glenn for telling isn't so much anymore that she thinks her stepmom and brother are in there but more because she's afraid that this is going to cause conflict and Glenn's going to have to go away.

[00:50:00] So they're both mad at each other because of sweet reasons. It's an adorable relationship but I always, I love pre-Maggie Glenn and I understand the change and I think they have a great relationship

[00:50:20] and of course Maggie turns out to be a great leader and a great person and everything but are you suited for the zombie apocalypse? And I find one of my favourite kind of tropes of these things is

[00:50:38] someone's normal skills in real life being super important in the zombie apocalypse. Glenn was the pizza delivery guy but that makes him think about routes and efficiency

[00:50:51] and just getting through things and like driving around the city, you know the city, how to get in and how to get out and that was actually one of his skills and that was one of his main contributions to the group

[00:51:03] was going on runs because he was so safe. And I love that kind of thing of like an everyday skill becoming important after everything goes to shit. She rides horses so that helps too.

[00:51:20] Oh and that was one of my favourite moments, sending that head off with the baseball bat for the polo play. There's been an accident, sorry I have to say it. I need to clip that.

[00:51:33] So and to, you said this, you know something about this changes Glenn right after this with Maggie and when she says hey walk or bite and he goes don't call me that and she goes okay Glenn and this is where he stops being comic relief I think.

[00:51:54] I can't remember, I mean he still maybe has some moments but he was, seemed like the comic relief character on the show like Hurley on Lost but now he's turning into more of a serious, grounded, solid person.

[00:52:08] And he grows up and becomes a man and has responsibility for someone and wants to take on that responsibility. And Steven Yeun does a great job of showing that in his character but I, in one sense I was like

[00:52:25] yeah but I like the goofy, doofy funny Glenn but I can't blame, I mean Steven Yeun didn't like that you know he told us on the podcast so maybe he had some influence on how this went

[00:52:36] but I didn't remember it being so early on that he starts to get more serious and capable and everything. I think Maggie was enjoying making him go through hoops with the egg. I think it was rotten. I'm like, there's a little smirk on her face.

[00:52:53] She's got a great swagger Lauren Kuhlman, she's like hmm, okay. Yeah well I totally get why Glenn is like yeah I'll do anything. Yeah anything you say Maggie, anything. She's pretty great. When Maggie says when Herschel married her stepmother all she wanted to do was smoke and shoplift

[00:53:17] and that made me think of Glenn in the comics revealed at some point that he used to steal cars before. Ah really? Yeah I don't think they ever had TV show Glenn say that but it's sort of a connection,

[00:53:31] shoplifting and stealing cars like they're connected on that level too. But anyway, alright that was great, thanks Jonathan, relationships. Lucy? I had Glenn and Maggie also. A Scottish Southern accent.

[00:53:51] I was doing an improv show last week and we got given the prompt to do it in the style of Bluey which is an Australian. Not having children I've watched Bluey maybe once, half an episode so I just went for it with the Aussie accent. Your Aussie accent?

[00:54:08] Didn't go well. Can I love? Oh Bluey, your family's just been killed in a massacre. It was not great, the audience were like, it could be worse. Anyway, moving swiftly on, Shane's turn, the switch flicks in Shane this episode.

[00:54:26] I think we've spoken about it and around it but the moment he hears that Laurie's gonna have a baby, that's caveman shit that he goes into at that point and you can see, I think that scene, that walk with purpose that he goes on and then Carl.

[00:54:43] I felt very tense when Carl puffs up to him and calls him out on his bullshit and there's a moment where I'm like, is Shane gonna go for Carl because he's so hyped up and so angry

[00:54:54] but he does something that in a way is more threatening to Laurie which is, goes paternal. Goes paternal on Laurie's son. That was more threatening wasn't it? It was more threatening and Laurie sees it and she's like, fuck, he's not going anywhere.

[00:55:10] He really views this as his stake now and he's just on an absolute rampage and you can see, I sometimes wonder, Jon Bernthal went on to be the punisher and I'm like, you can see that in this episode. You can see that drive and that intensity.

[00:55:29] Laurie fucked this up. She should have been like, Rick maybe don't tell Shane, although I don't know if he might be like, why not? Well that's their whole conflict is because Shane is like, I know why Rick told me and you didn't and he's not wrong.

[00:55:45] She should have went and told Shane, hey Rick knows I'm pregnant or tried something other than just let it happen. Tried to get him out, being like, actually Shane yeah go, leave, I don't want you here anymore before he finds out.

[00:55:57] It's such a mess. It's such a glorious, glorious mess and that scene where Rick tells Shane and I think there's so much unspoken subtext in that scene because what Rick is telling Shane is

[00:56:09] you're going to be a dad and what Shane, the joy on Shane's face and they're like, oh Laurie's pregnant. Wow, congratulations. It's about how he's feeling and then Rick looks over his shoulder like, thanks

[00:56:22] because he knows it would be weird if he didn't say thanks and I'm like, the sexual tension between Rick and Shane is like off the scale. I always laugh when I hear this because it's a bit, okay.

[00:56:36] The smolder, they're just smoldering at one another. I'm just like, just kiss. I mean, they're obviously not actually trying to each other but the intensity, like especially when Rick's like brother don't do this when he's like holding this up, it's so good.

[00:56:51] I think it's because John Bernthal and Andrew Lincoln are similar kinds of actors that just put so much into it and they feed off of each other. Oh, they're brilliant to watch together. Absolute dynamite.

[00:57:05] And yet Shane going for the barn, not being deterred. That scene where he is dishing out the guns and Maggie, God bless her, is standing up to him and saying, what the hell are you doing? That's a coup. That's him saying this farm isn't yours anymore.

[00:57:22] It is so disrespectful what he does and little Carl screaming out, Shane we have to stay. Like we want to stay, don't do this. Awful. He's an absolute man on a mission and it's a terrible mission. It's not a mission he should be on. It's a cruel mission.

[00:57:39] It's one that, yeah, technically he's in the right but he's showing absolutely no empathy for the people around him. It had a point, didn't it? I thought it was interesting as you say it was a coup. It was also a coup on the group.

[00:57:54] It was taking over Rick's leadership. He's like, I'm the leader now. I'm deciding this. Rick can't do it anymore. Yeah, absolutely. And I hated the way he played up to this very masculine thing of like, what about you Glenn?

[00:58:09] You're going to protect your own? You're going to do that? And I'm just like, Shane is toxic masculinity. And this makes me wonder like, because I can't remember. Okay, this seems like Sophia was the reason that they were sticking around or at least one reason.

[00:58:25] Rick clearly wanted to stay here longer and so did Carl but it seems like after this they would be on their way but they're not.

[00:58:34] So I'm like, what? Didn't Herschel kick him? But they're there for the rest of the season. I know because I tried to get in the last episode.

[00:58:42] Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the back half because I can't remember it. I've got some vague images of things that have happened but I really don't remember the story. We can see if there's any other Shane moments.

[00:58:59] But he was an unstoppable force wasn't he? It was like a train, a runaway train just heading down the tracks. There was only one destination and he wasn't stopping until he got there.

[00:59:10] One of my favorite exchanges I've ever had about Jon Bernthal was off podcast where I was talking to my friend Diane and I was like, can you believe that Jon Bernthal trained in Russia?

[00:59:21] Like he trained as an actor in Russia and she looked at me and she's like, that man's got the face of a man who trained in Russia.

[00:59:29] I was like, yeah, you know what? You're not wrong. You're not wrong. If they told me Chandler Riggs trained in the USSR I might be like, did he? But yeah, Jon Bernthal, I'm like, yeah, no, that does actually make sense.

[00:59:40] I don't know if I've talked much about my interactions with him. No, you haven't. I remember being at a Walker Stalker where you did a panel with him. But I never really, he's one of the ones I've never heard you talk about so much.

[00:59:55] There were a couple that come to mind. One was in Boston and Nerf was sponsoring it. So all the actors had Nerf guns and they were trying to shoot each other and stuff.

[01:00:04] And we had a couple up on stage and he, I didn't click with him. I wanted to, but I don't think he connected with me. I always felt like that.

[01:00:16] He wouldn't look at me. And when we sat up on stage, I tried to kind of break the ice by picking up the gun and pointing it at him, the Nerf gun. And he just goes, don't like he was scared, you know, not kidding around.

[01:00:27] And then he took your family out of the car and shot them with a Nerf gun in front of you.

[01:00:34] It was a kick ass panel, mostly because of his interactions with the audience in the Q&A. And I just sort of stood back and let him do his thing.

[01:00:43] Then there was another time we had this smaller stage right in the middle of the convention and it was just me and him and there were people, you know, no seats, just standing all around.

[01:00:52] And I had this question. I don't have any clue what it was, but it was too long of a buildup for a question before we warmed up at all, because halfway through the question he just like trailed off and stuff.

[01:01:06] He like saw some little kid or something and he goes, oh, that's a cute kid. Like right in the middle of my question. I think he was making a point like that. Your question was too long.

[01:01:14] And then I said something about, or he goes, he reminds me of my son and I'm like, oh, I have a son. And he goes, oh, how old? And I'm like this. Oh, that's how old my son is, which I knew. I knew our kids were the same age.

[01:01:26] And so I had to like really catch myself and be like, he's kind of in the moment. So let me meet him where he's at and go from there. And it was better after that. But I don't know. I never quite figured out how to really connect with him.

[01:01:42] He seems very serious about his craft. He seems quite thespian in interviews I've seen. But he also, like I've seen some, has he been in the military?

[01:01:57] I think he, there's something that his Mark Maron episode is brilliant. He acts up here. I'm pointing at my brain because it's a podcast and me pointing at something on the screen isn't that helpful. He's actually quite cerebral because I was like, oh, he looks like an action guy.

[01:02:19] But yeah, he talks to Maron about kind of the career he had before The Walking Dead and stuff. And yeah, it's fascinating.

[01:02:28] He's very serious. And like, especially interviews I've seen in later years, like, you know, you have to talk about serious things with him is what I found. But, you know, he's not some, you know, goofy guy.

[01:02:44] Yeah. I wish I could have gotten into a really serious conversation with him because I did with several others. But anyway, I, cause I had all varying types of connections with the different actors. Some of them, I'm Facebook friends with some of them, but not so much him. But I still totally respect him as an actor. I love his performances and I'm glad to see that he's one of the ones that have gone on to really be successful.

[01:03:14] After The Walking Dead, because he's so talented. I think his appearances in The Bear are some of the best bits of TV I've seen. He's great.

[01:03:24] Yeah. He fills a role that is done mostly in flashbacks. Well, it's done in flashbacks apparently and he just owns it. Like it's hard to describe, but I remember just being like, oh my God, he's great in this role. Yeah, he's really good. Fantastic. Yeah, really good.

[01:03:42] There has been a lot of shirtless shots of him I've noticed as we've been going on as well. I have to say, just take one look at him in those dungarees and no shirtless shirt, no shirtless shots can get those out of your mind.

[01:03:57] One time in Atlanta, Andrew Lincoln had a big panel and I was trying hard to get it set up as a this is your lifestyle thing where we would have in the wings waiting John Bernthal and the guy who played the governor, Dave Morsey.

[01:04:16] And one other guy, maybe it was the Terminus guy. Yeah.

[01:04:20] And they were all game, including Bernthal. Like that was the most connected I ever felt with him when I was like, yeah, we're going to do this. It's going to be great. But then technically didn't work out for whatever reason.

[01:04:28] He and Lincoln were really close friends. I think I feel like their kids were of similar ages and stuff. Yeah, I remember there was an anecdote about them going trick or treating together with the kids, presumably not the two of them. That'd be really weird.

[01:04:39] Rick and Shane just at your doorstep asking for candy, I suppose. Oh, you come as Rick and Shane. Oh brilliant. Good costume. Oh my god, I would do that. You look amazing really. If I was on the Walking Dead I'd be like, hey. So where are we?

[01:04:53] I was just saying that Shane is, Shane kills it in this episode in more ways than one. But this is where his spiral starts. Like this is where it's fully engaged in evil Shane unlocked in this episode.

[01:05:06] I think all bets are off. He's gone complete rogue and this is, there's no coming back from this. Because I remember him and Rick taking Randall out and 18 miles out and they're still friends. It's very tense though. Is it? Okay.

[01:05:22] And at that point isn't Shane like planning to do exactly the opposite? Planning to kill him or something? Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to watch now. I'm excited.

[01:05:32] Okay. My turn. Should I do? Okay. Why did this episode hook people into the show? I think the obvious reason is that it was so intense and unexpected and there's something about the bleakness of it that's compelling.

[01:05:47] We want to see these characters that we have come to love be put through hell and see how they'll come through it, you know? But also I don't know, just spending six episodes hoping that they would find this little girl and somehow having her come out.

[01:06:06] It was just being shocked like that is it's hard to do, you know, it's hard to shock people. Exactly.

[01:06:15] I don't know if anybody expected that. So that's just unexpected. And then it just, like I said, seeing how they come through these awful situations, the show keeps going after this. There's people dying, cannibals, rapists, autocratic assholes. So that's one reason why everything we come to know about.

[01:06:36] That's why I really liked the ending where they found some peace and stability in the commonwealth. You know, it's like a good place to end. But also I just think what, what else about the episode? It's helpful to ask what this revelation about the walkers in the barn in the first place.

[01:06:56] And then having Sophia be in there meant to the group. It's so destabilizing. Like Glenn doesn't realize it, but when he's telling people about the walkers, it's going to have a bigger impact on his group situation than he thinks.

[01:07:11] And Sophia is the main reason why they're there. So that takes that away. It could impact how people perceive Rick as a leader, given that he's the one who kind of lost her. And that's been a big theme on the show this season.

[01:07:30] He didn't know Shane was going to go in and shoot them. And so that causes a lot of potential conflict between Hershel's people and our people. Yeah, like you said, Jonathan, Shane sort of asserted that he's now the leader. So that's conflict between him and Rick. It just destabilizes everything.

[01:07:49] And I think destabilization is just what the show needed because like I said at the top, it was getting a little bit like, okay, the search for Sophia, everybody standing around talking all the time. No zombies. Come on. So this really kicked things into gear, you know?

[01:08:05] But then the writer said, what will make the second half even better? An extended debate about the death penalty. But you know, there's stuff happens around that that's better. It amps it up I think. But yeah, it's all teething problems, isn't it?

[01:08:22] I think you're right though, Jason. That was a joke. But no, I think you are right that it does pull out from that kind of standing around the farm playing CSI with a missing child. Laying the map out on the hood and well, let's try over here.

[01:08:43] In this episode of The Walking Dead, we're going to learn about concentric circles on an ordnance survey map. Yeah, Darryl. That's how he does it. Expanding concentric circles eventually ending up in France. In France. Which was a fantastic series. You enjoyed it too? I loved it. Good.

[01:09:02] Oh good. I'm glad. All right, Jonathan, do you have any more points? Yeah. I assume we're going to address Sophia deeply later on, but I'll just throw in a quick thing on the camera work and how this season has been shot.

[01:09:24] I think in the beginning there was this crash zoom at the intro to a perfectly blocked shot of the cast. You see these shots of groups and they all stand around like the Avengers.

[01:09:38] The way it was framed was these group shots were really well done and gave everyone a presence and power but also seemed not set up. It seemed quite natural. And then there's also the shots of the barn that seems like a new character in the series.

[01:09:58] It's just this imposing barn. The music gets a little ominous when they show it too. Yeah, almost like the Amityville Horror House. Yes. Where they have that shot and it also had at the front the two eyes of the two windows.

[01:10:16] But I also like the horror vibes of how this was shot. The grading of it, it felt very Texas Chainsaw Massacre with the colour palette, this warm thing and the heat. And they did some interesting angles from the top of the barn looking down was very graphic.

[01:10:35] One of my favourites was Rick and Herschel at lunch. It felt very noir because they were backlit and in silhouette and framed by the door.

[01:10:46] The framing of the door kept becoming tighter and tighter as the tension built between the two of them were making it feel like the walls were closing in. And this may have been because of the constraints of shooting on location in a house.

[01:11:03] There were a lot of long lens and close-up shots but that also added to the tension. There's this great idea in 12 Angry Men how in the beginning everything was shot on a wide angle lens.

[01:11:20] And then as the movie progressed the lens got longer and longer and the frames got tighter and tighter to have this build up of tension in the movie. And I feel like they're doing that here as well.

[01:11:33] There's a lot of shots using walls and doorways as frames, especially at the end when Sofia is… You have this POV shot of Sofia looking out and it's just the doors of the barn in full silhouette and you have Shane looking back in, peering in.

[01:11:52] And you're just thinking, oh what's about to come? But basically the camera work was a real character in this one and really added to the tension.

[01:12:01] Are you talking about… so early on there was one when Shane first finds out and goes over to the barn and you see his face through like a crack. Yeah. But as when it went at the end, yeah. And we should come back to that.

[01:12:12] That was great. That shot early on I loved because he's like locking his head looking in there. And then we get a jump scare! Obviously a jump scare. I knew it was coming and I still did it. I was like, oh a jump scare, jump scare.

[01:12:24] And then when they're arguing, I think it's Shane and Daryl arguing that we talked about earlier and then the Zed's here and they get all agitated and you see the door start to shake.

[01:12:33] I don't know if that was so much great film work but it was a good moment. But it's just there is horror here. It's creepy. And I also noticed earlier on in what's different now to later seasons is the characters are afraid of the zombies. Yeah.

[01:12:53] There's real fear, you know like… They're like pests later. Yeah. No one would care about like a dozen walkers in a bar in season eight. No. Someone would walk in on their own and just go stabby, stabby, stabby, stabby.

[01:13:08] If it was Fear the Walking Dead they would go in and have full on dialogue as the zombies stood around waiting for their turn to… Brand standing. Seriously. Coleman Domingo giving it all that while the zombies are having a knife fight in the background. You're like, okay.

[01:13:24] That one I fell out of because… and the literal reason I stopped watching Fear of the Walking Dead is because my DVR didn't record the first one. And I'm like, oh well. Your DVR did you a massive favor. Yes. It was a fated moment.

[01:13:43] Coleman Domingo by the way, I think he just got nominated for an Oscar. Indeed. For Rustin. He's amazing. Why? Oh my god. Someone at EMC has blackmailed him. That's when you quit fear or when you leave fear.

[01:13:54] Well that was the saddest thing because it was such a great show in the first two seasons and I thought it was amazing. And then it just, you know, I'm sure you've spoken about it before. Oh we rarely mention it.

[01:14:09] But I love how this season was shot and how the color grading of it, that warm kind of thing and the haziness of it and the sun setting. I felt it added character to the whole series.

[01:14:26] When I was preparing the graphic to put up on our Facebook page for the comment post, it was Rick holding his gun at his iconic downward angle, you know, that came to… that's just how he uses it. But I don't know if we've seen that before now.

[01:14:43] Maybe this was the first time. Anyway, I just sometimes I have a photo in the photo, Apple Photos application and there's a magic button that you press that kind of saturates things and bumps up the contrast and color and stuff.

[01:14:59] And it looked, I did that and it looked really good but it was like, no, that's not The Walking Dead. It needs to be kind of washed out, warm. So I just undid it and posted it up there. You had to hit that desaturation button.

[01:15:12] When you think you've gone far enough, just go a little bit more. Oh my God, I love your point, Jonathan, because I noticed a couple of things in this episode aesthetically that I didn't know how to articulate and I think you have just done that really well.

[01:15:26] Photographer's lingo. I know. And one thing I wondered about watching this is I remember this season ends with when the herd comes through, they're actually starting to hunker down for winter.

[01:15:42] And I was at this episode, I was like, are we starting to turn up a bit late summer, early autumn with the colors like Rick's wearing slightly?

[01:15:49] I don't know. He was wearing a darker shirt. Like I was just like, oh, is this where the turn starts to come where? Because we don't see a full kind of seasonal shift. But I wondered if it started to kind of…

[01:15:59] But that is an interesting, yeah, because it does feel like the end of the day. It does feel like the end of summer. And are they saying that because this is the end of summer for humanity, you know?

[01:16:12] We're going into a dark winter. We're not quite there yet. Winter is coming, you're saying. Yeah, winter is coming. Yeah, that's a good point, Jason. Winter becomes… This is something I really realized living in… When I lived in Canada, it was like winter can kill you.

[01:16:28] Like we've lost so much touch with the actual elements of the world outside. We sit in our heated houses, which is our right and is one of the reasons that we are successfully living on this planet.

[01:16:43] And you can die outside if you're not warm. Four walls and a roof and warmth and heat becomes this huge, huge thing.

[01:16:50] The other shot that I noticed that kind of leads into my final point was there was a really interesting framing of Maggie and Herschel before they have their conversation in the kitchen where the camera is almost…

[01:17:04] It's almost like it's on a shelf behind the room. Like you can see some wood around and it's the two of them are facing each other over the kitchen table. And Maggie's disappointment in her father, I think, is weighing on him.

[01:17:17] I really loved that sequence because I think what Maggie talks Herschel into there is giving Rick a chance, which is what we see when he takes Rick on the awful mission to capture Mrs. Lou from down the road from the bloody swamp.

[01:17:33] But the way Maggie delivers it with scripture is so beautiful. Love one another. It's just really nice. And it affects Herschel because she's speaking to him in a language that he understands.

[01:17:47] Because we see him doing his Bible study in this episode. His faith is front and foremost of how he operates here. And I thought that scene between the two of them in the kitchen was just lovely, intimate work.

[01:18:01] And it's Maggie pushing back against her father in a reasonable and robust way. And she corrects him. She says the Asian boy is called Glenn. And he kind of takes it.

[01:18:15] And yeah, that kitchen scene really struck me. And then, of course, you get to Herschel taking Rick to do… Lead them, Rick! You've got to lead them! It's so ludicrous. I found that so funny. He goes, you're the carrot, not the stick.

[01:18:34] And even Rick, who's like, you've got to say anything you ask me I will do so I can stay on this farm. He's like, this is easy?

[01:18:43] It's like, poor Rick. He's like, these are zombies. Have you ever seen Night of the Living Dead? But all right, I'll play along. Awful. And Jimmy falls over. Otis clearly had skills that we just didn't appreciate in the time that we had him.

[01:19:00] Otis is the one who used to do that, which is why no one knows that Sophie is in the barn because Otis put her in there. But going to your point, Lucy, about that conversation, because Rick's earlier conversation with Herschel is like,

[01:19:19] we don't want to go out there because we'll become something we don't want to be. And Maggie brings that up to Herschel is like, you're becoming someone you don't want to be. You're sending people out into the thing and that's not you.

[01:19:35] And I think he realizes, yeah, like I'm doing something wrong here. And then she turns him around and tries to work it out. So then he's like, all right, Rick, if you want to stay here, you got to pass this test. Treat these zombies like people.

[01:19:52] And then Shane sees that, that just pissed him off. What the hell are you doing? Well, it's like if it wasn't done then. It's like degrading, isn't it? To see someone like Rick doing that. It's like humiliating and Rick's just like, we just got to get it done.

[01:20:10] Rick might as well be giving one of them a piggyback ride. Yeah. And Shane's essentially like, hold my beer. And then it's so bad. It truly is just a massive clusterfuck of epic proportions at this point.

[01:20:24] Oh, we find out in the conversation with Rick, with Herschel and Maggie that all the other farms nearby are burned out or overrun. Yeah. And he's like, they'll find themselves a farm maybe even nearby.

[01:20:38] Because I did sort of think, oh, maybe they could just go two miles down the road and be like near but not too near. But Maggie, you know, they're all burnt out or overrun, which again, leaves the question of why Herschel's farm isn't.

[01:20:50] And it seems to be this magic river that's made of quicksand. Yeah. I don't know how that relates to the other direction. Herschel's farm is so special. And Rick is so adamant about wanting to stay there.

[01:21:04] I think he wants to stay even after they find Sophia and Carl says the farm could be a home to her. And I'm like, why? And Rick says to Herschel they've been shielded from what's happening. And I'm like, why though? That was always a criticism.

[01:21:19] And then they go to corral these Zeds and they're stuck in the mud. And I'm like, is that why? Because they're all getting stuck in the mud. But wouldn't there be a whole bunch more stuck in the mud if that was the only thing?

[01:21:28] And I think the idea is that it's surrounded by water. It's never really clear, I don't think. When all the zombies attack at the end of the season, I think it's because the ground is frozen. So they don't get stuck in the mud.

[01:21:43] I think they said something like that. But is it also just symbolic? Like Lothlorien in Lord of the Rings. It's held together by magic and there's magic that's keeping things out. And it's a special place, not a regular place. Yeah, but this is a grounded show.

[01:22:05] My headcanon is that there's a mountain on one side that's blocking them in fences. And then there's a river on the other side that can't be crossed. So this season is a prototype for every late Fear the Walking Dead story.

[01:22:21] Some place that's special for some indiscernible reason, but it's all important and we have to stay here. Think Strand's Tower or Padre or a couple other things. Rick is all wrong about it because the farm isn't as shielded as he thinks.

[01:22:36] But at least for this moment, for whatever vague reason, I just feel like it would have been better if they could have come up with a more solid and clearly articulated explanation for why this happens and shown it more satisfyingly.

[01:22:52] At least they didn't blow it off with a line. I've been watching these videos and there's just a line of exposition. But they actually showed it and showed how it could work. And there was some effort put in, whether it was believable or not.

[01:23:11] At least they've addressed it and they didn't just say, well, we're just in this area that doesn't have a lot of traffic. But there's certain physical things about this property. Partly, as I'm watching the first time, I like zombies. I want more zombies. Bring them in.

[01:23:33] Oh, for some reason because of this mud, they're not here. Well, I didn't like anything about it. More on your side, Jonathan. I was glad that Maggie said the other farms were burned out or filled with walkers because that was something fear would never do.

[01:23:53] Why do we have to go to Strand's Tower? There's a lot of other towers. Whether it's believable or not, you could say, oh, they're all burned out and full of walkers. Something. Exactly. Address it because otherwise it's just because the plot demands it.

[01:24:07] This farm doesn't have any walkers because the plot demands it. And then we just do something through our way along. It's a weak point. To what degree is debatable, but even then it's a weak point. In my view, it's a weak point of the season. That's all.

[01:24:30] Anything else, Jonathan? I mean, why don't we get to the... Get to the Sophia a bit. I may have prepared a recap, Jason. Yeah! Wait. I was holding off. Well, you know, I'm a guest on the big shows.

[01:24:57] Things really kick off after days of bubbling tension when they bring back the walkers from the river and Shane has had enough at this point. And so he's bringing the neighbours down and you're right, Rick does just look humiliated.

[01:25:11] And then so Shane just pulls his gun and he's like, can a living, breathing person do this? Three rounds in the chest and they, why is she still coming? Three more rounds. And then the walker keeps coming and he's like, that is enough. And then, boom!

[01:25:26] Shot to the head and time just stops and everything slows down and we pan across the crowd. And it's like, it ain't like it was before. And at this point I'm thinking, is this war or is it survival?

[01:25:41] You know, are we just doing what we can to leave or are we at war with the zombies? Are we out to take them out to give us peace or do we just try to stay on the run and stay one step ahead of them?

[01:25:54] And then there's chaos as Shane opens the barn and then people, you know, wailing and reality is hitting everyone like a truck. And then Rick screaming to Herschel, Herschel, take it! And he's like, don't do it brother. And he can't interact and then, but he does.

[01:26:12] And then the walkers come out and they're determined, you know. And this is what I love about these early episodes is the walkers are determined and hungry and want to attack you and they're faster than they are in later episodes.

[01:26:28] And they're looking at you and you're like, I want to eat you and they're coming after them. But then, but our crew's determined as well. And then Shane, Andrea, Andrea and T-Dog and Glenn all form a line and then get down to business.

[01:26:43] And then we have some glorious, glorious Walking Dead scenes. And you know, there's such great takedowns and Andrea goes into slow-mo focus mode again and becomes the perfect shot. There's shotgun blasts to the face of these and they're all, there's just all these walkers on the floor.

[01:27:06] And then we pull back and we send it, see the grim regret of the aftermath. Oh, that's brutal. Yeah. You know, and then we hear the slight growling and then there's a shot from the inside of the bar

[01:27:24] and like once, just when you think it was all over, we get that shot from inside that I was talking about before where the barn door's black in silhouette, taking up most of the frame and you have someone looking at it.

[01:27:40] And I'm like going, what, who, what, what's happening? And then Shane's peering back and he's like going, what? And then it pans from the shoes up and we see the frail body, the clothes falling off and as she comes out, she's kind of flinching in the sunlight.

[01:28:00] And I remember and I said it again this time when I first saw it, I'm like, oh my God, it's Sophia. I couldn't believe it was happening. And I'd been lulled into this false sense of security that she was just gone

[01:28:16] and we wouldn't have to deal with the loss of this child. But Carol runs over and she's stopped by Darryl, even Herschel's horrified and Rick has this look on his face of such, he's so drained by it

[01:28:30] that he knows what he has to do and with guilt and regret etched on his face, he's staring into Sophia and she's looking back with these vacant dead eyes and everyone's broken, everyone's broken now.

[01:28:44] And then the music which had been, had this eerie kind of supernatural feel to it, almost like an early Spielberg film music as when she's coming out but then the music starts to swell and Rick is determined to end this horror

[01:29:05] and so he strides forward and there's that great shot from the side as Sophia's stumbling towards him and closer and closer and then he takes a shot and she just goes down and then we see this close-up of Rick as he drops the gun to his side

[01:29:23] and the camera pulls back from them and it reveals the grief of everyone gathered and then the camera pulls up into the sky to rise as if it's finally Sophia's soul has been released and then cut to black. It was such an amazing moment.

[01:29:47] Something that really struck me when we were re-watching this is that Herschel has a chance to kind of stop it when Rick is saying take the bloody zombie and I will stop Shane but the way Scott Wilson plays it as just paralyzed, like he is overcome,

[01:30:05] it is a horror show, he is watching a massacre. Oh it's powerful and Maggie, oh my god all of them. It's powerful isn't it? It's so powerful and they focus in on this zombie with curly hair

[01:30:23] like a kind of late middle-aged woman and I'm like oh that's his flipping wife isn't it? I think that comes back in the next episode with Beth. Yeah, just horrific, absolutely horrific. Yeah I was thinking what if there, because we haven't really seen

[01:30:42] Rick have to put down a zombie version of anyone that he very much cared about. What if it was zombie Laurie in there or something? And he never gets that with Laurie, he never gets that close.

[01:30:58] Yeah, never. I was trying to look like he, I can't think of anyone. Daryl had to kill zombie Merle, Michonne killed zombie Herschel Head. That's the count, it was only like a quarter of his body.

[01:31:16] So yeah, I feel like that's something they should have done a little bit more in the show as horrible as it is. That's the thing about zombies that's so interesting is someone that you cared about

[01:31:27] suddenly wants to eat you and you have to figure out what to do about it, you know? I think in the later seasons they stopped killing the main people up, they lost half their audience. Right, they had to be careful.

[01:31:43] Lucy, do you remember when you first watched this how you felt when Sofia came out? That's a good question. I don't think I was spoiled, which is unusual for me. This was back in the pre-spoiler days. Just really…I was all in by this point.

[01:32:01] I was like, yes, I just love this show so much and that moment was just an absolute stunner. But I remember being… I think for me the big grab of the season actually comes more towards the end with Rick and Shane.

[01:32:16] I feel like that's what we're building up to. But this was just…I'd never seen anything like it. It was just incredible. I don't think at the time I appreciated how horrific it was in terms of the Green family.

[01:32:32] I think I only remember Sofia, but when I re-watched I'm just really struck by what happened to Hershel and Maggie and Patricia and Beth. And I guess Jimmy. Jimmy the idiot falls over in the mud. Poor Jimmy, he's just trying to get by. Did you kill Jimmy, Jason?

[01:32:50] No, I didn't kill Jimmy. I heard him being killed. He screamed for that long. Because apparently that actor, he had expressed in some interview that his greatest fear was being eaten alive. So he was really drawing on that in that scene. And he was just going, ahhh!

[01:33:11] What episode are you in again? So I look out for it coming up. Thirteen. The finale. Oh, we'll be doing a deep dive into Jason's. I was chewing on Patricia's leg for a while there. That's it. Oh my God, my leg! I love her. I think she's great.

[01:33:32] But just the overwhelming grief on everyone's face and the horror and the shame that they all felt. Even shame. Especially shame. He finally reclaimed some of his humanity at that moment. When it is someone they know, even though he's dismissed her completely and he's like,

[01:33:58] we've lost her, let's go. Even Shane in this moment recognises his humanity and how awful this is. And going back to Glenn saying, you know, they weren't, they're dangerous. You stop thinking of them as former people and as zombies.

[01:34:21] And then I think that every character again is the horror of the situation. That these are people that had lives and meant things to other people. It's just the tragedy of it all came down on everyone.

[01:34:36] And then I was hooked and I'm just like, this is such a great show. And it's kind of interesting that Shane always gives Rick shit about not being willing to do what needs to be done.

[01:34:49] But then Rick ends up being the one to shoot her at the end. And he does what no one else can bring themselves to do. And he's like, I shoot little girls all the time. Little girl! I asked Peter what he thought about that.

[01:35:05] I was like, why does Rick shoot him? Why does nobody else do it? And Peter's like, I think the rest of the group, I think that's Rick being a leader. Like they don't know what to do. And I think Rick is giving permission.

[01:35:17] Like it has to be Rick. But I think I'm more of the reading that it's about… I keep thinking that line in Lord of the Rings where like, a chance for Faramir of Gondor to show his quality. But I think it is about Rick showing his quality.

[01:35:34] It is. That he can make the hard decision. Yes. Yeah. I've thought that this whole time.

[01:35:40] And the only new thought I had this time, looking into it deeply, is that he also needs to show that this rule or this idea that the zombies aren't people anymore applies even when it's one of our own.

[01:35:58] Because if he couldn't do that, then it would have been so hypocritical to try and persuade Herschel of that in the first place. You need to let us kill your zombie wife and son. But then when one of ours comes out, we can't do it too?

[01:36:13] That won't fly. You know what I mean? No. And he does become the benevolent king. Although he looks after his people, he will still make the hard decisions and ban people from the group, kill people if necessary.

[01:36:36] Now they know as a group that he can make the hard decisions and he reasserts himself as leader and ends Shane's coup in that moment. Right. If he hadn't done that… I don't know what about that. Me neither.

[01:36:53] It was a coup of his own, of not just Herschel but his own group. And then Rick ended that with that one last act there. It's interesting. Take charge! So Dale says on the highway that he wants to avoid some of the…what was it he calls it?

[01:37:12] The big conversations about the needs of the many versus the needs of the few for as long as possible.

[01:37:19] And there's this sense in which Dale is kind of like the Cassandra of the group and sees what's coming or just has a feeling of what's going to happen before that. Cassandra in Greek mythology could see the future but nobody would believe her and that was her curse.

[01:37:34] And you see that scene with Andrea and Dale where Andrea…I don't know, Andrea's quite smug in this episode. I can't quite put my finger on it. But she's like Shane wants to watch by the barn. Dale is pissed off. She's got a gun.

[01:37:50] Yeah, she's like I've got a gun now. I think part of the reason why people don't like Andrea is actually at times how Laurie Holden plays it. The look she gets on her face. Smug.

[01:38:03] But there's a moment in that scene where she says Shane thinks we need to watch and Dale's like does Rick think that? And Andrea knows what he's asking. He's basically saying Shane's not in charge here and Andrea's like why wouldn't he?

[01:38:17] And I'm like oh…and then I think at that point that's when Dale is like I've got to hide these guns because shit's about to go down. Yeah, that's what he was doing. It's interesting. It's really…I don't know. There is wisdom with Dale.

[01:38:33] I think I see him as more of a meddler this time around but there is also wisdom there. It's not black and white for me. There's things about him I like and things I feel critical of like with most of the characters.

[01:38:45] He's always been referred to as the moral compass of the group and a group needs a moral compass. And he was the one now and Herschel becomes it later but he's the moral compass but the gang doesn't want a moral compass.

[01:39:01] They want to make decisions and that moral compass applied in the pre-apocalypse world but maybe not so much now. I would say like Glenn goes to him for advice. Yeah. I only see resistance from Shane and Andrea really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:39:23] But then that is the redefining of what the morality is. Darrell's idea of morality was universal but now… Dale. Dale, sorry. Now that is the question of the series. Even Dale seems to abdicate that. Okay, I'll just die. Shane, it's your world now. Yeah, no, but that's it.

[01:39:49] Some people are suited to it and that's what I loved about… Sorry, what's his name? Red hair, moustache, muscles. Abraham. Abraham.

[01:40:02] So I loved about Abraham in the later episodes how he thrived in the CA and he's just like finally all my skills that I have I can just use everywhere.

[01:40:12] And he loved taking out the zombies and took counts of it and it was such a kind of like this is my kind of world, you know? Yeah, but he could be a good loyal friend too. Yeah, look out for his people. Yeah, yeah. All right, thank you.

[01:40:28] Shall we move on to notes? Yeah. That's good. Stray observations and things. That moment where Herschel comes to ask Rick to help and Rick's like a kid being like, oh, Herschel, the only reason we have our guns is because we're about to go out on a thing.

[01:40:44] And it's that kind of childish obeyance quality that I think Shane really… It's like a red flag or red rag to a bull when Shane sort of sees that with him guiding the Zed along. Something none of us have mentioned. This is a Scott Gimple episode.

[01:41:05] I think it's his first writing credit. Is it? It doesn't feel like a Gimple episode, but maybe it feels like Gimple at his best episode. Between this and last week's Angela Kang episode, you can see why they both got a shot at showrunner.

[01:41:21] I think both episodes are done very well. Andrea loves or doesn't love… Andrea's got the horn for Shane because he's not a victim, which is a fair point. She's kind of caught in this position of wanting to end her life, but also wanting to survive and thrive.

[01:41:44] And I kind of empathize with that. I empathize with the idea of being drawn to somebody who didn't let the tragedy define him. Yeah, but as long as you're not being reactionary or just going to such an extreme that you steamroll over everyone else.

[01:42:00] But she didn't care about that. Gimple also wrote Save the Last One episode three, where Shane shaves his head and shoots Otis. So two of the best episodes of the season. And that really got me that one. Through me, the structure of the episode was so great.

[01:42:21] And as you mentioned on the episode, you're wondering what happened and that the mystery of what happened and how it revealed in that episode was brilliant. The thing is, as a showrunner, you're more shaping help.

[01:42:36] You have the final say in the shaping of the story, the arc of the story, or even giving direction of where you want the story to go in the first place. And all the writers sit together and break out by beat what's going to happen.

[01:42:47] And then each writer gets assigned the episode to actually write what you've all already agreed on is going to be the story.

[01:42:54] So maybe Gimple thrives best when he's the one who's fleshing out the vision that several people have come to together and someone else has given the main direction.

[01:43:05] Although I would still say that seasons four and five and six have had some kick at where Gimple was showrunner, have had some very good stuff in it too. Definitely. Okay, Jonathan, what do you got? Yeah, like I thought was really interesting.

[01:43:22] There was a moment when you pointed out when Shane's peering through the crack in the barn door, and then we get that jump scare. But his training kicks in and he immediately goes for his gun that's not there.

[01:43:38] And I thought that was a really great illustration of how binary Shane is.

[01:43:44] It's on or off, you know, and he can't help to react to things because of all the training he has had and the way things are from him being a policeman and that sort of training and how to deal with people is so ingrained in him.

[01:44:00] It's how he deals with the world now, you know, and I thought that was an interesting moment. I think that Darryl's biceps should get a separate credit in the show. Two separate credits. Jennifer McGinley listening, I bet she agrees.

[01:44:20] It's also how I found it interesting how eye candy these early seasons are with some of the boys, I think, especially with Shane and Darryl. I didn't think that was really a thing but it is. Yeah. Yeah, thinking about Shane's training.

[01:44:43] I had been thinking about Rick too because a lot of his character is about him wanting to protect and needing to go off and try to save Merle and just, you know, wanting to lead so that he can be the one to set the direction and be the protector for the most part, keep everyone safe.

[01:45:02] And I was thinking, man, a guy like that who's so compelled to protect, it makes sense that he wanted to be a police officer. And I think that's why, you know, he wanted to protect and he took that job.

[01:45:15] So and then as I said, over time his circle of care kind of shrank at times. The people he wanted to protect and the people he didn't care about so much. But then maybe…

[01:45:26] I had another thought about how the walkers are treated in this as they're still dangerous and they are still a part of the story and it's still an obstacle to overcome rather than later in the series it feels like they're an annoyance.

[01:45:48] They wish it was an apocalypse but not in the zombie apocalypse so we didn't have to deal with fighting zombies all the time and rather finding a clever way to overcome the obstacle and how dangerous they still are. It's just seen as pests. Yeah, exactly.

[01:46:14] Which I think was to the detriment of the show. There are exceptions though, especially when Angela Kang came in. Definitely exceptions. Yeah, like I always think of that scene with Rosita on the front doorstep in the rainstorm.

[01:46:29] I mean maybe they're still like kind of pests but it's badass, you know. Well I'm really looking forward to as we go on with the rewatch is re-looking at the latest seasons because at the end I feel like… Come on, let's get through a bit.

[01:46:46] But I'm hoping that when we get to especially to the Whisperers that I look back on more fondly now that section and that it was dangerous. Yeah.

[01:46:57] But I think that was really, really interesting and you know there has been a, you know, turning them a level of zombies. You know they become very low level zombies in the end. Yes, I agree.

[01:47:12] And I forgot how much, how different they were early on like you said. They seem more aggressive and just more human and cooler looking in a lot of ways. Yeah, and you know we actually see some that weren't all in the group of people wearing long sleeve t-shirts.

[01:47:31] Yes. I always thought a lot of them would just be naked but… Yeah. Some people must have died on the toilet. Yeah. Or just cut their pants on a hook or something. They've got their pants down so they're forever kind of walking a few steps and falling over.

[01:47:48] Having to get up again. When I first got to set to be a zombie they took me to wardrobe and there was a room with just long racks of shirts and pants and all the shirts were long sleeve.

[01:48:03] And I had to pick a t-shirt and an over shirt and you know it was all very samey. It's deceiving doing the makeup on the arms, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It feels like it's like from Seattle in the mid 90s and everyone is just munching about.

[01:48:20] Nirvana playing in the background. I know I mentioned this when we podcasted about it the first time but Glenn mentioned Portal. You know, I looked at Lord of Me into that well like it was fun like I was playing Portal. It's a video game.

[01:48:35] She goes, of course it's a video game. And I just love that because Portal is my favorite game. It had only been out for… I think it had just… Well, Portal 2 had just come out back then in 2011. But they haven't made a third one.

[01:48:50] Come on, make a third one. I never played it. I wonder if it's still worth having a look at it. It is. You should look. Yeah, it's my all-time favorite. Last of Us is my second favorite game. Portal is the first. Yeah, me too.

[01:49:04] So when Herschel asked Rick how many walkers he's killed, I wanted to say how many people? Why? Because it just made me think. Three questions they ask later on. There's some criticism sometimes when characters are only there as a prop in someone else's story.

[01:49:24] I think Sophia is that and is that okay? People being sacrificed for story? No, where like you say, oh, you know, so-and-so had a girlfriend or a boyfriend only to enhance that one character's story. They weren't characters in and of themselves with their own stories, you know?

[01:49:43] We hear that criticism a lot. Yeah, because what I liked about this is that it didn't seem like they said, oh, we're going to have a walkout of the barn bachelor maybe. And then let's work backwards to how that happened.

[01:49:59] I think that she was a character that was always there and that events led to events, you know, rather than- Or at least it felt that way. It felt that way. Yeah. Like the scene at the church where they hear the bells ringing, they all go running down.

[01:50:21] That felt like an insert that felt like then this happened. Oh, then they go to the church and there's zombies sitting in there. Because how can that happen when that is on a timer?

[01:50:32] That church would be just surrounded by walkers if it's putting that sound out once a day. But they wanted that scene in there. So that felt like an insert scene. Contrived, like kind of. Yeah. And the Darryl falling down the cliff and getting himself up.

[01:50:49] That was like, oh, we want to have this moment with him. It didn't feel like it would happen, you know? Because it's just like, oh, he's on the skiddy horse. And then he goes riding on his own because that wouldn't happen.

[01:51:01] And then a snake comes up and then he falls down the cliff. And then he loses his thing and then the walker comes. Over the years, I think there's a lot of that in Walking Dead where you just feel them riding to the gag kind of thing.

[01:51:14] Yeah, exactly. But this is why it felt very earnt. I think the moment with Sophia was earnt. And the shock on there wasn't manufactured. At that moment, you realize you actually care about these people.

[01:51:33] It was so heartbreaking to see Carol come running through and then just break down in Darryl's arms. I think she's a valid character. And I think this was a result of great writing, which is why it's so memorable.

[01:51:53] I think at this stage as well, the show later does a good job of developing child characters and young people characters. But at this point, we just hadn't really had a chance to with Sophia and Carl because we'd only had six episodes with Sophia before she disappears.

[01:52:13] And Carl they're doing pretty well with, I would say. Yeah, Carl's doing... Carl said bullshit today. I would say if we want to talk about kids getting killed for a story. Anyway, moving on. But yes, go ahead, Jason. Who are you talking about? I'm thinking about Carl.

[01:52:31] And how stupid that... Anyway, yeah. That was a contract dispute. You know, that's what the one thing I say it over and over. That's one thing that annoys me about this show is you need to get some good lawyers.

[01:52:46] Have this sorted out. Stop having characters get famous from the show and leave. Or someone just getting left on the bridge never to be seen again. Or what's his name in the Oceanside? Yeah, I mean, back when Michonne left Denia Guerrera, that was the result of two things.

[01:53:08] One that you mentioned earlier, the show got too afraid to kill people off later on. And then two is, yeah, she didn't have a solid contract and could leave to go off. So then you end up with a really dumb story point where she leaves her child behind.

[01:53:22] But hopefully the ones who live will be great. There was a trailer for... Was it American fiction? I can't remember. There was a film we saw trailer for when we were at Cinema at the Weekend.

[01:53:30] Corey Hawkins is in it. And I was like, he's... It's like, he's loose. He's still out there. You look just like comic book Heath here. And then my last note is just I was asking myself what might have happened on Herschel's farm if Rick's group never came along.

[01:53:49] And I was thinking that the zombies would have stayed in the barn, but then the river or magic, whatever, would have frozen over and the barn, the farm would have been stormed by all of the Zeds.

[01:54:01] And then maybe Herschel and his group would not have been as prepared because they would have had practice or just they wouldn't have had the idea that it's kill or be killed by that point, you know? So they might have all just been dead. Yeah. No greens.

[01:54:18] After that. All right. How about some IMDb deep dive? Not too much. I love when they tell you something really obvious. This week's Captain Obvious is the title comes from Dale and Shane. Shane says he is pretty much dead already.

[01:54:35] Which is, I mean, talking about built for this world, that's Shane saying you're not built for this world, Dale. He wasn't actually threatening him. I don't think he was just saying you're not going to last long. And he was right.

[01:54:46] Yeah, absolutely. The two zombies in the swamp are a father daughter stunt performing duo. So together before. I can't help but think of that lip reading on that one too. Hey!

[01:54:59] In the comics, Sophia outlives her mother, outlives Carol. This is the first child zombie we've seen since series one episode one. And an additional fact about Sophia, Sophia outlives everyone in this episode except Carl.

[01:55:22] Sophia and Carl are still living at the end of the comic. And they have a daughter called Andrea. So it's very nice. And in our timeline, we are on day 71. So they've been at the farm for roughly four days.

[01:55:37] Yes. And Shane's like, how many times has Rick saved your life in the last four days that he's been conscious?

[01:55:43] Yeah, I know. How many times has Rick saved your life in the 10 days since he came back and the four days that we've been at the farm and the other times? And she's like, what's wrong with you?

[01:55:51] Yeah, on the plus side, Carl's up and about. So the major surgery clearly went really well. But yeah, that's it for me. That's my two bits.

[01:56:02] While I'm on, to go back to this a bit as a listener, I've been trying to get to, was Laurie and Shane having an affair before the zombie apocalypse? I'm a strong no on this. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm most likely no, but I'm like 85%, 90% no.

[01:56:24] Yeah, I think there's a slight possibility they might. Yeah. Is that what you think too? Slight possibility, but probably not? Yeah.

[01:56:33] I don't think I told you this, Jonathan, but we've been doing Only on the Walking Dead. So only on the walking dead would finding out that a lost little girl that everyone was hoping was still alive was actually a zombie be the thing that hooks all us sick and twisted viewers into loving this show?

[01:56:52] Exactly. I feel you need a sting though, like only on the walking dead. Now we have it. Thank you. There you go. Only on the walking dead would a rotten egg lead to true love.

[01:57:08] I had mine here. Only on the walking dead would pool tools come in so handy. And I know that they were, I know that they were cattle wranglers or something, but it just that scene looks so comical to me. Yes.

[01:57:29] I mean, they all had kind of pool tools and then just taking the netting around and had it around their head. Oh, so good.

[01:57:36] But I thought that those two zombies and now it makes sense that they're actually kind of stunt performers. They were some of the great zombie performers, especially the woman, the grouse and there was a close up of the guy and he looked so scary.

[01:57:52] But her taking those shots later on was so visceral and it was so well acted. That was I think there were some great zombies, but that was such a comical scene for me with the pool tools.

[01:58:07] For a minute when you said that I was thinking of those big noodles you get for learning how to swim. Yes. That would be hilarious. I love that. They'd stick it in their mouths.

[01:58:22] McDonald's, E-I-E-I-O. And on this farm we had some living dead. E-I-E-I-O. With a bear, bear, bear, bear, bear, bear. Oh, McDonald's had a farm. E-I-E-I-O. All right, we're back. It's time for Listener Moans, Groans and Grunts.

[01:58:56] Speaking of brains, next week Lucy and Karen and I are going to be covering Return of the Living Dead, which is the first zombie movie where they said brains. I'm excited. I've never seen it so I'm looking forward to watching it. Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

[01:59:19] All right, let's get in some feedback. Jonathan? Ah, okay. Cindy Barak. This one should win for best title, Smiley Face. Kirsty Keene says, the feeling in the closing moments of this episode I'll never forget. Pure shock.

[01:59:36] Michael Koska says, I enjoyed this show up until this point and then I quit. No, I'm just kidding. But this moment, Sophia coming out of the barn is what turned me into a super fan.

[01:59:50] And hello to Ben Beck who says, I still don't think there's been a moment in television that has made my heart sink faster and further than Sophia coming out of the barn.

[02:00:00] Oh, Ben. Mark McBurney says, loved zombie movies growing up but I was late to the party and didn't start watching until the Shane slash Ota's school episode, which I really liked, but the next few years were slow and wasn't sure if I was going to keep watching then this happened.

[02:00:15] So yeah, this was when I was hooked and all in. And Mark McBurney, I really want to know if you're Scottish because that's a heck of a Scottish name. Mark McBurney.

[02:00:26] Mark McBurney. Matt King said, I'd kind of forgotten the exact ending. Like who was in the barn? No, just kidding.

[02:00:34] A lot of the episodes and storylines have merged together over the years for me, but that was a real gut punch and couldn't help but tear up a little as Sophia emerged from the barn.

[02:00:43] John Bernthal, knocking you out of the park again this episode. Yeah, it was pretty emotional even watching it this time for me. I felt a lot.

[02:00:51] Yeah, absolutely. And John Bernthal was amazing in this and like, it's such a good sign of how good a job you're doing when everyone hates you.

[02:01:03] And I can appreciate his performance more now because back then I did kind of hate him. But now I'm more removed from it. So I can just appreciate it, I guess. And we see how everything turns out. Yeah, yeah, that too.

[02:01:20] All right. So Brad Holt. Hello, Brad. This was the episode that made me crave more content. It was during the hiatus after this episode that I found The Walking Dead cast and the Walker Stalker podcast. There you go.

[02:01:33] I think the same for me. I also acquired the first two comic book compendiums, flew through them and began buying the single issues monthly, turning me into a true Zedhead. Nice. Still my favorite comic, I think. Yeah.

[02:01:47] Brad, I think you and I have a similar comic book trajectory. I think that was the case for me as well. Gemma Hall. Hi, Gemma. Says there's walkers in the barn. Oh, and Sophia. This moment will probably live in Walking Dead infamy.

[02:02:02] And I remember just feeling heartbroken, especially for Carol. It's never easy to watch. The scene is so exceptionally filmed and acted and the momentum builds so well. Shane is just full throttle and the Green family look on in horror.

[02:02:13] Rick has to be the one to kill Sophia, making her the second little girl he said to put down in a few weeks. I always cry at this scene and episode, but it is outstanding in my opinion. I agree.

[02:02:25] I can't believe they had Rick shoot at least one little girl every season. That was so weird. I'm just kidding. Carol takes the mantle though in season four. She enjoys it. We are horrible people.

[02:02:37] Laura Willie Swink says, yep. This is the episode that truly hooked me in and set up the stakes for the show. And despite the shocker finale on rewatch, I appreciate all the great character interaction going on in this episode that leads to that pivotal moment. Yeah, me too.

[02:02:54] Maggie standing up for Glenda Herschel, Glenn standing up to Maggie and her loving him for it. And Shane going full Shane when he discovers he's going to be a daddy.

[02:03:04] Can we now imagine how that would have been with Shane as Judas dad? That could have been interesting. I bet she would have turned out different at this point in the story. Rick still believes in peaceful negotiations. Oh, how that changes in the future.

[02:03:21] We'll intersperse some calls in here. Here's Steve Brown.

[02:03:26] Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve and this is going to be for The Walking Dead season two episode eight pretty much dead already. I've already started the episode. I wasn't going to do a live Steve but then I just had to because Maggie you're gonna waste an egg. You know that's food.

[02:03:44] Glenn just said the same thing, waste an egg. I forgot about that.

[02:03:48] Oh, that's heartbreaking. The way Daryl just walked away from Carol and called her a name. And I'm getting choked up by it because it's just his way of coping with the notions right now is by leaving. Is this before or after Dale has seen Shane point his gun at Rick? I don't remember but he definitely got a feeling about Shane in this conversation with Andrea.

[02:04:11] Oh, and Maggie overheard this whole conversation I'm assuming between Herschel and Rick. Herschel giving them the to leave by the end of the week. Wow. Oh, and Rick just told Shane that Laurie's pregnant and I'm sure Shane's thinking that it's his. Oh, Maggie's picked up the vocabulary walkers.

[02:04:27] Jimmy just ran in and said it happened again. And I think it's there's a walker on the farm, right? So Shane blames Rick for the deaths and says that he saved Laurie more times than Rick has. And now this scene between Carl and Shane is just great little Carl bone up to Shane to say we're going to stay.

[02:04:46] Carol and Daryl still have hope that that Sophia is going to be found alive. And here Herschel's trying to convince Rick these people can be cured. Oh, walkers I mean. Seeing the beginning of Maggie and Glynn's relationship is so touching. Oops. Shane just found her- Dale.

[02:05:04] Oh, Shane just at the top of the episode pretty much dead already. Mic drop. Dale figure out that Shane shot Otis. This is intense. This Shane shouting and these walkers and I know what's going to happen but man it's still intense.

[02:05:18] Never realized all the bodies fell in just a clear line where there's a path for Sophia to walk through in between the two sides. That wasn't quite as clear as I thought but still she's walking pretty well.

[02:05:29] Of course Rick has to deliver the final bullet that takes out Sophia. Oh, heartbreaking. Talk to you next week. Oh Steve the tone shift there is like- It's fun to hear live Steve's for these early episodes because he didn't start doing that until much later. Yeah, that's great.

[02:05:52] Did you ever have him on to discuss his method of the live Steve? I don't know. That'd be cool. I always wonder whether he cuts it together later or whether- I guess if it's a live Steve he's just commenting and recording and stopping and recording and stopping.

[02:06:06] He keeps them really tight which is great. Yeah, they're really good. I love them. Well done Steve. He's great. I think it's your turn. Is that me? Yeah. Shanna Shanna. Oh, Shanna Shanna? Shanna Shanna. Alright, Shanna Shanna.

[02:06:20] This iconic Walking Dead episode tells the complete Greek tragedy of Rick Grimes. A man just trying to find his family and navigate the cruel, disturbing post-apocalyptic world where the illusion of control will get you killed.

[02:06:34] The exploration of the farm as a potential moral and physical home for our survivors may have felt long at the time but it was necessary to lay the foundation of this series. Jason and Lucy, I was completely shocked, horrified, hooked when this episode first aired.

[02:06:49] I had no idea Sophia was in the barn. I don't think we used the acronym WTF in 2011 but that's exactly it. WTF. Sophia was in the barn. There was no going back for me after this episode. I believe in Rick Grimes.

[02:07:06] That's awesome. I think we did because I think Mark Maron's podcast WTF is older than ours. So WTF was a thing. Oh there you go. Chandra Wright says it was tough watching Rick escorting walkers on a stick in an attempt to keep the peace with Herschel.

[02:07:25] You could feel how it made him appear less capable as leader. Though I'm not sure I agree with that, said Chandra.

[02:07:30] And why Shane was pissed when he saw it. It was also painful to watch Shane go way too far and cruelly shatter the hope and misguided idealism of the Greens.

[02:07:38] From Rick pleading with him not to do it, Glenn checking with Maggie before opening fire on her friends and family. It was already a tragic scene.

[02:07:46] When Sophia shuffled out, squinting from the light, the oxygen felt sucked from the room and the gravity of what happened was felt immediately.

[02:07:53] I thought it was a great episode then and now and a real turning point for the group. Very well put Chandra. Agree with all of that.

[02:08:01] Yep. Rinaldi says, Rinaldi Kleek says there's an episode of the sitcom Fresh Prince of Bel-Air where Will Smith has an emotional outburst scene because his father abandons him for a second time.

[02:08:14] After the director yelled cut, James Avery, who played Uncle Phil, praised Will saying, you did it. You were a real F bombing actor now. You're going to reach your potential as an actor.

[02:08:24] That is how I felt about The Walking Dead. Once this episode ended, Walking Dead, in my opinion, fully reached the potential it showed in the excellent pilot episode with this episode.

[02:08:34] Everything in this midseason finale was building up to Sophia's reveal as a walker and that buildup lasted throughout the episode. Several characters, Rick and Shane in particular contributed interesting moments and overall the buildup was well executed. Pun unintentional.

[02:08:47] That's why this episode is number eight in my Walking Dead episode rankings. Don't get bit like Sophia did. Yes, I admit I can be terrible sometimes. Rinaldi's the star of the chat. Let me tell you.

[02:09:01] He won't tell us what his bottom three are Rinaldi. We need to know. I know he's really eking it out now. I guess we'll have to find out when we get to that.

[02:09:09] All right, Josie Bowen, XTOL. During my first watch just a few years ago, I had suspected that walkers were in the barn, at least those that related or familiar to Herschel and his crew.

[02:09:20] But when Sophia came out, I lost it and screamed, holy shit at the TV. My husband who has seen the series before laughed and said he had a similar reaction at the time.

[02:09:30] I just couldn't believe after all the time and focus on this storyline that she was there.

[02:09:35] I truly expected them to find her somewhere else and I actually predicted that she would later be discovered with a shady group Randall had been with and be subjected to all that horror.

[02:09:45] I'm glad they found her in the barn instead. Also, the way Daryl has to hold Carol in this scene kills me. I love their friendship and this scene means even more to me now with so many years of friendship later.

[02:09:56] This pivotal moment of Rick having to be the one to put Sophia down is so important because it shows us he really is a true leader of the group, despite what Shane would like to believe.

[02:10:08] And the discovery that walkers truly aren't people anymore, poor Herschel, such a great scene, iconic television.

[02:10:15] It's great. Although, Josie, you need to tell me how you predicted that Sophia would be discovered with the shady group Randall had been with when Randall hasn't been on the show yet, nor his group. And she's already come out of the barn.

[02:10:31] Not to call you out. Just curious. Maybe she's a psychic. Please keep listening. Hi, this is Dodie from Wells, Maine. And this is for season two, episode seven. What an intense and emotional episode.

[02:10:49] I think I was really appreciative of one of the few light moments that we had in the season. What a great little scene. Just love that. But my main focus in this episode is Shane. And his behavior.

[02:11:06] I got to ask, what's more dangerous? A barn full of placid walkers well fed on chicken or a barn full of chicken? I think it's the chicken.

[02:11:16] Some will say that Shane did what had to be done, but did he? Or did he do what best served his narrative of being the only person in the world who could have a chance to be a part of this?

[02:11:31] A barn full of placid walkers well fed on chickens or an enraged, pathologically possessive man?

[02:11:38] Some will say that Shane did what had to be done, but did he? Or did he do what best served his narrative of being the only person who could keep his family, Carl and Lori, safe? Yes.

[02:11:53] To further this narrative, he promotes the myth of the one solution. Always beware of that. There's only one way that this can be handled. Yeah, right?

[02:12:05] Anybody who wants to show human compassion and concern is pretty much already dead. So that means Rick is already dead. Dale is already dead.

[02:12:15] Even Lori and Carl would be already dead if they didn't have him and only him to keep them safe by doing what has to be done. They belong to him.

[02:12:27] And once Shane knew walkers were in the barn, he starts poking the bear, shaking the doors, triggering the walkers. He ends up creating the danger that he claims he wants to prevent so that he can prove his point and secure his place of leadership.

[02:12:45] Is that really doing what has to be done? Or were there other choices, other ways to get to the problem? It certainly would have been a lot safer if the family could have been persuaded with more information that it was time to put down these walkers.

[02:13:11] And they could have been shot safely from the top of the barn. No. Shane didn't do what had to be done. He did what his rage told him to do. He's always operating on a trigger. I think Shane is the most dangerous thing in their world.

[02:13:39] Anyway, I'm really enjoying your rewatch. And I thank you for having a chance to go back to the beginning and walk through with it with you. So, well, thanks a lot. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Dodie. Thanks, Dodie. I loved that. It was very intense.

[02:14:10] She's, I think she's not anymore, but she used to be a minister and she's retired. I met her out in Boston. Her delivery is amazing. I love it.

[02:14:20] It definitely makes you think. I think she's absolutely right about Shane, but that's also what makes him so compelling to watch.

[02:14:29] Absolutely. If it would have happened the way she suggested where they would have gone about it all reasonably, then this season would have continued to be a snore fest.

[02:14:39] But no, that's great. I mean, we always talk about these stories on two different levels in one sense where it's how you react to them as real people doing things and what's the best story.

[02:14:56] And those are never the same, you know, what you want them to do for the story versus what you would be smart in real life. Right. But grounded in reality is great, which makes it so good. And there are people like Shane in the real world.

[02:15:10] Oh, yeah, they're everywhere. Absolutely. Go to the gym. Join a frat. Maria Lawson says I am perhaps in the minority of those that really liked season two the first time I watched it, possibly because I watched the season on Netflix.

[02:15:28] So the story didn't seem to drag like I think it may have if watching week to week. I came to The Walking Dead and the podcast later.

[02:15:35] I think season four or five was my first live watch season because I don't like scary movies much and didn't realize what the show was truly about people. The watch I people about this watch. I know the show is about people. Well, this is about people. People.

[02:15:55] It was about people. Sorry, Maria. It's about people. There we go. We got there. Maria says this what I watched secrets on this episode back to back and the tension that starts in secrets just keeps incrementally climbing throughout this episode.

[02:16:13] This episode is one of my favorites of the whole series. It has everything. My favorite moments are Maggie having her own opinions aside from her father and calling him out. Herschel being forced to confront the reality that is the new world.

[02:16:26] Shane being an absolute unhinged dick and Carol and Daryl sharing in the devastating reveal that Sophia was dead this whole time. This episode still makes me cry no matter how many times I watch it.

[02:16:38] I'm looking forward to hearing about Jason's experience as a Walker extra in the finale to both my husband and I had the opportunity to work as background actors and world beyond since it felt too far from us. Neither of us got to be Walker.

[02:16:50] So I'd love to know what that was like. Thanks for the rewatch coverage. Thank you Maria. Sorry for murdering your prose. That would be great. Yeah. Daryl, I forgot to look at Daryl's expression when he first saw Sophia because he must have been crushed.

[02:17:07] He's been everyone holding out more hope than anyone. Oh yeah. That beautiful panning scene and everyone's gun dropped to their side, their shoulders slumped and everyone just reacted so badly to that. Carl smirked but other than him. Carl was like, nah. I'm number one again.

[02:17:29] I'm an only child again. Yeah. Oh no my mom's pregnant. Damn it. You win some you lose some. Oh wow. Karen, she says it's interesting that we still refer to Sophia by name when she comes out of the barn.

[02:17:44] Even when most viewers have aligned with Rick and company believing that the walkers are no longer human and need to be put down. Oh God, insightful as ever Karen. Good point.

[02:17:54] They're no longer Sean or mom or Lacey and Duncan as Maggie called them in the previous episode though we see a shift in Maggie's beliefs now. When Glenn takes a more diplomatic approach telling Maggie that they may be dead people or sick people but they're still dangerous.

[02:18:05] Shane flat out calls Herschel's Walker neighbors things and his iconic. Why is it still coming if it's alive rant? Isn't it easy to dehumanize who we don't know? It's easy to see monsters of those who aren't our own.

[02:18:20] This is a good point Karen except in this case they are. They are monsters. But no, it's still point stands. Hence Sophia shuffling out to complicated characters and the audience beliefs.

[02:18:33] Even Shane the biggest advocate of dispatching the walkers can't put her down because he finally stands in Herschel shoes and in the clear light of a day Shane lost his humanity long before the barn massacre. So going forward into the season, he's pretty much dead already.

[02:18:50] Bears music and that panning crane shot across Glen Andrea Shane and T-dog as they realize who's come out of the barn. The crescendo to Carol crumpling and Darryl's arms so devastating. The turning point in this series so far if there ever was one.

[02:19:05] The Walking Dead isn't holding anything back. Excited to hear Jonathan guest host with Jason and Lucy. Thanks for the coverage. Yeah, thanks, Karen. All right, here's that was great Karen. Thank you so much. I was glad when you write in. Here's a call from Archmaester Renny. Renny.

[02:19:24] I noticed that there is a lot in this episode about fatherhood and stepfather hood.

[02:19:30] Maggie says to Herschel that she was 14 and angry about her mother dying when Herschel married his second wife and he told her then that Bible quote where Jesus says to love one another and her implication is that he was a good father figure to her at that time.

[02:19:48] But you're different now. She says meaning he's not being a good father figure now. And then Lori says to Shane, even if it's yours, it won't ever be yours. Meaning that biology doesn't matter. She and Rick will raise the child.

[02:20:04] So even if Rick isn't the biological father, he'll be the quote real unquote father. And then Shane reasserts what a good stepfather he's been to Carl by stopping to talk when Carl calls out to him rather than just continuing to stomp off mad.

[02:20:21] And by admonishing Carl not to swear as if that mattered in the ZA. I think the show continues to explore this father figure theme throughout its run. And there are several poignant things that happen, most especially with Herschel giving his watch to Glenn.

[02:20:40] Interestingly, I don't think there's any real focus on stepmotherhood until the late seasons with Michonne and Judith.

[02:20:48] One other thing I noticed in this episode is that sharp eyed watchers of the credits would have realized that Sophia was going to be found one way or another in this episode. Yes. Because Madison Lintz's name reappears in those credits after having been absent for several episodes.

[02:21:07] Finally, I'll say that this is one episode where I was really on Shane's side when I first saw it. And I still am on rewatch. He was right to demonstrate to Herschel that the walkers are actually dead, not sick. Brutal as that was.

[02:21:23] Rick's mollycoddling, Herschel's delusive wishful thinking was more likely to get them killed. All for now. Wow. Ruthless. Wow. Archmeister. Carl. I like it. I like it. Love it. That's great. Great. Dina, hello Jason and Lucy.

[02:21:44] I watched Pretty Much Dead already about a year ago and didn't rewatch this week so the details are fuzzy. But what stood out for me back in 2011 is that it was the first time I really saw Rick as a leader.

[02:21:58] He struggles in subsequent episodes during the season but he earned my esteem when he shot Sophia. He and Shane both want what's best for Laurie and Carl and that means remaining at the farm. Rick chooses respect and cooperation and Shane chooses all out rebellion.

[02:22:14] Both men are somewhat infuriating. Yeah, well it happens. Number one, Rick hurting walkers. I think even he recognises how absurd it is. Number two, Shane outright disrespecting another man's property. It is no matter that Herschel has deluded himself in it. It's his land, not Shane's land.

[02:22:33] Apologies to you Woody Guthrie. Shane whips most of the group into a bloodthirsty frenzy. Big man with a big gun and a big chest to thump and a small mob behind him.

[02:22:43] Yet when Sophia growls her way out of the barn all he can do is stare, dumbstruck and useless. I do believe he's grief stricken but so is Rick.

[02:22:53] In one simple minute Rick is the only one who decisively steps forward and puts that little girl out of her misery. Maybe he blamed himself. I'm sure he did. The only thing that really matters is that he took responsibility. That's a leader.

[02:23:08] Other moments that have followed me over the years, Glenn begging Maggie to let him fight yet fully willing to remain if she said no. Herschel's anguish, Maggie's heartbreak and Darryl holding Carol's grief. I love how the latter scene plays out again when Carol sees Henry on that spike.

[02:23:27] There we go. Not a particularly cohesive letter here but how can one follow the eloquence of that episode? Love to both of you. I don't know if I like Rick, I feel like Rick was doing the best he can.

[02:23:49] I'm trying to, I don't remember what convinced Herschel that the zombies were not people anymore. Is it after this episode now he's convinced because Shane shot that one? Shane shot that one in the chest several times?

[02:24:02] I can't remember the second half but I would assume this might have an effect on his opinion. We have a conversation about it in the next episode I think.

[02:24:12] I've side more with Karen who's saying Rick could have tried to gently more lead Herschel to this so that they can safely shoot the zombies from higher up in the barn versus what Rennie side more that Shane did the right thing by just kind of abruptly doing it.

[02:24:33] Because that's risky I think, you know, that's a risky ploy. What if it didn't work? I don't know, maybe it did work. We'll have to keep watching and find out. And it's interesting of this is, it's Herschel's farm, it's his property. But is it?

[02:24:51] I mean what's going to, who's going to enforce that? Today we have property laws and police and courts to enforce that if you buy property it's yours. Now it's just human decency. Can you hold it?

[02:25:04] It's your property if you can hold it and you must defend what's yours with violence if necessary. And that doesn't happen now. But in this situation where law and order no longer exists, you know, it is down to you.

[02:25:21] And this really does feel like a transitional episode of are we leaving, finally leaving the real world behind? The old world behind and moving into the reality of the situation because we still have some rules and etiquettes from before the CIA still here.

[02:25:46] I mean, yeah, to hold a property you're going to have to defend it against those who would take it from you. But as someone like Rick, if I was Rick, I would not be like, hey, property doesn't matter anymore. We're going to take this place from you, Herschel.

[02:25:57] I'd be like, hey, we need to, I would still try to respect Herschel as the owner of the property and impart to him. That's maintaining your humanity. But then you've got someone like Shane whose humanity is slowly leaving him or quickly leaving him.

[02:26:12] And he's like, well, why are we even asking? Yeah, totally. All right. One more. We have Danielle Dement-Yost who says, wow, this is really such a stellar episode. I had forgotten. Shane just reached the end of his patience with everything and made some big moves.

[02:26:32] I think another what if episode would definitely have to be Andrew and Shane leading the group as a couple. Oh my God. Oh yes. But also, oh, that could be a fierce if morally questionable group to contend with.

[02:26:46] I am loving watching Carol and Daryl's friendship really blossom and seeing Maggie and Glenn finally fully embrace their feelings for one another. Shane is desperate for some control at this point. He lost his leadership role when Rick showed up. Why is that anyway?

[02:27:00] He lost the right to have an opinion on what Laurie and Carl do. He feels controlled by Herschel and Dale and Rick and Herschel and Dale and Rick and is dying to take charge of something, anything.

[02:27:09] He saw a way to get control of the guns and went for it. He knew he could intimidate Dale without actually doing anything. I actually do not think that he would have attacked Dale at this point. I don't think he's quite that far gone yet.

[02:27:21] But Dale wasn't about to take that chance, understandably. Just to recap. On day 67, they go looking for Sophia, find the church, split up. Carl gets shot. Rick rushes him to Herschel's. Herschel digs a bullet fragment out and explains that he needs more supplies.

[02:27:35] Otis and Shane leave for the school, find the supplies. Shane shoots Otis, comes back and Herschel completes the surgery. That was a long day. The biggest suspension of disbelief, however, is that the last episode, Secrets, takes place on day 70,

[02:27:48] a whole three days after Carl has had major surgery and substandard conditions. And he's just chilling, feeding chickens until he can shoot in practice. Jerk. In response to the conversation about the waste of ammunition during shooting practice, I just think it was an investment in their future safety.

[02:28:04] Without the training, they'd have a group of people relying on only a few who could shoot. At this point in the ZA, they're still thinking they can find more ammo and they need to learn to protect themselves.

[02:28:13] Anyway, this was a really fun rewatch and it took all I had not to watch Nebraska, which is one of my favourite Walking Dead episodes of the whole series. Can't wait for next week. Oh, bad news, Danielle. We went a little bit longer than next week.

[02:28:26] Danielle also says, I've been relishing your friendly voices and time with my comfort TV lately. Thanks as always. Love to you both. Heart. Danielle, I give you permission to watch Nebraska because we're going to be a while.

[02:28:40] Yeah, so we're going to take a break because The Ones Who Live is coming up, the Michonne and Rick series, which we're going to cover. It's not actually out for another month, but we said we were going to take breaks in between and cover movies.

[02:28:56] So as I said, we're going to do Return of the Living Dead next week. And then we're going to do one or two episodes leading up to the Rick series, talking about Rick like we did with the Daryl series.

[02:29:07] And we're going to cover the Rick series. Then we'll be back on the rewatch after that. Which I'll probably say again in the end segment in case anyone didn't hear that. But we have one more call and that's from Sam. Oh, Sam. Yay.

[02:29:22] Hi, it's Sam. I'm so excited you guys got to this episode. I've been waiting for you guys to get to this episode so I can hear what you think about it. This is one of my favorite episodes of The Walking Dead. I know I'm not alone in that.

[02:29:35] It's so, so well done. I mean the opening scene with them calmly eating around the campfire, not unlike myself, watching it live as a viewer, turning on AMC, watching it. I'm like, okay, let's ease into The Walking Dead world.

[02:29:49] And then Glenn drops the bombshell about the walkers in the barn. Of course, the entire group has to go and double check. You know, fact checking is important even in the zombie apocalypse. And then they confirm it. And then boom, shit hits the fan.

[02:30:04] Everyone goes into animal mind, emotion mind, whatever you want to call it. Fight or flight is real with that group in that opening scene. They're saying like, let's go find Sophia. Let's go talk to Herschel. Let's kill the walkers. Let's just leave the barn.

[02:30:20] Everyone is so in their own emotional argument. They're not even trying to understand the other person next to them, which is what happens when your amygdala takes over. So it was so interesting to see, like fear taking over,

[02:30:34] the social niceties do fall away and you just end up being ruled by that emotion brain. And then the credits. And I like how every scene after that, the interactions between the characters are so filled with tension. Whether it's an internal tension or an external tension

[02:30:49] between two or more characters in the scene, it was interesting to see it build and build and build. And watching it live, I was like, well, this is building towards something. I'm not quite sure what. And then of course it's the barn.

[02:30:59] And I mean, Bernthal just did an incredible job. Andrew Lincoln hitting some of those high notes with Herschel, take the stick. Or I don't know what you said exactly. And then they go and they open up fire.

[02:31:12] Just all of them just shooting the walkers as they come out of the barn. Nice little reminder for me at least that they're not the expert sharpshooters that they go on to become. A couple of those walkers did get immediate headshots. Most of them required multiple shots.

[02:31:29] So it makes sense why they would be so terrified to not want to nap a few yards away from where a whole group of walkers are locked away in kind of a rickety looking barn, I gotta tell you.

[02:31:41] And then not only that, are they sleeping with the dead a few feet away, a few yards away? Their loved ones are. And they don't have their guns. Like they are not really good walker killers yet where they can just use knives all the time.

[02:31:53] They're not there yet. So they're even more hyped up and afraid. So we see this whole like, you know, the music builds while they're shooting the walkers and it's all like, oh, okay, cool. And then there's a lull and just like every good horror movie,

[02:32:05] they come back, we're not done. And you hear the music being all creepy and then it zooms in on Sophia's little feet. It starts to get sad. And you see this horrific bite on her neck because poor Sophia died horribly and alone.

[02:32:19] And she's been dead for a while. And it zoomed up to her face and Carol's crying, Carl's crying. Everyone's devastated. And then Rick steps forward and shoots Sophia and I was like, I will follow this show until it's ending. It is phenomenal. It is so, so good.

[02:32:36] I know horror movies and TV shows have probably killed kids before. It's not my favorite trope. But I don't remember another TV show or movie that would have me get attached to a little child, a human innocent child, and then to kill her off.

[02:32:50] And not just kill her off like right in front of us. No, no, no. She died horribly and she's been dead. You could have never saved her characters in the show. And I just thought that that was so innovative and brilliant and they were letting us know,

[02:33:03] the writers that they were saying like, there's no holds barred. We're going to be as brutal as this reality will be. And they kept their promise. So I'm so excited for this episode and I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say. Agreed. Great quote.

[02:33:21] I mean, remember the first shot or the first thing in the show was Rick shooting a little girl in the head. So they kind of just like, nope, we really mean it here. Yeah. I forgot to mention,

[02:33:33] I don't think when I first recorded on this that I said this because I wasn't revealing that I'd been on the show, but I think I've talked about it on the podcast since, but I was spoiled on this when I was an extra.

[02:33:46] They said, oh yeah, Sophia was in the bar and I was like, what? So I kind of feel robbed a little bit of this moment. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody's talking about what a mind blowing moment it was

[02:33:58] and I didn't get to, I kind of had it when I heard, but it's not quite the same, you know. I remember being like, what? It was the way it was shot. Everything was, it was so hard hitting. Yeah, you definitely missed out on a great TV moment.

[02:34:12] Sorry, Jason. You made up for it with your analysis. It's not fair. None of us got to sit on stage with all the crew. That kind of makes up for it. All right. That is our show episode 562. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thank you, Jonathan.

[02:34:35] It was a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much guys. I had really fun and great to meet you, Lucy. Oh, it's so fun. I'm really glad. I hope we get to do this again. Me too.

[02:34:45] Everybody, if you, I mean, Andor is the best Star Wars show from Disney. It was up for an Emmy for best show. It's fantastic. And Jonathan and James did an amazing job podcasting about that. So if you go to podcastica.com and check out Star Wars TV cast,

[02:35:03] you're going to love it. I promise. And season two is yet to come. Yeah. The show is amazing. It is the best Star Wars they've produced for Disney Plus. And, you know, we loved talking about it and yeah. Have a listen.

[02:35:19] But more importantly, just have a watch because it's amazing. Jonathan adds a lot of Star Wars special effects and really puts a lot into it. I don't know what you're talking about. And some terrible impressions. That was meant to be Obi-Wan Kenobi. I do that. I like that.

[02:35:35] As I mentioned, we're taking a break from the rewatch until after Rick and Michonne, The Ones Who Live. So we'll be covering next episode will be Return of the Living Dead and also the return of Karen,

[02:35:48] because she's going to be back to talk about that with me and Lucy. And then we'll do a couple of prep episodes to get ready for The Ones Who Live. And then we'll get back with rewatch once that is over. Yeah, we will.

[02:35:58] There's new trailer out drop today. Oh, I'm not watching it. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, please check out some of our other podcasts.

[02:36:13] If you haven't already, I recommend you go check it out. In addition to Andor that I just mentioned with Jonathan, I think you would really dig Welcome to the Apocalypse, our zombie improv show with Randy who calls in sometimes and Jenny and Robert.

[02:36:31] And I think I'm going to release an episode of that in this feed next, like in a couple of days, just so you can guys can get a hit of it and see if you guys like it. This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Justin Smith,

[02:36:44] who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabassi. So thank you to Justin. Justin gets ad free and usually early access versions of these rewatch episodes. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Josie Bowen Echtold. Only on The Walking Dead.