564: Let's Get Ready for The Ones Who Live!

[00:00:00] It's about the ride. It's the ride they'll be on. I think what excites me is I think there's some really unexpected turns that it'll take for people where they'll think they're thinking one thing. I'm already noticing they're thinking one thing and it's like,

[00:00:19] that's a whole other thing. So I'm excited to see people take the ride. That makes sense. Yeah, I agree. And well, and also I think it's, you know, it's about completing something that we started 13 years ago. You know, it's a big show. It's an important part of both

[00:00:34] of our lives and you know, like the DNA of the old series. I want people to be moved, thrilled, scared and exalted, you know, and hopefully we can bring a bit of love and hope and justice to the audience and you know, six hours of zombie filled escapism.

[00:00:53] AZ Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 564. And this episode we're getting ready for The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live. Spoiler right in the title there. Yeah. Do you think they might live? I don't know.

[00:01:40] Might as well not watch it. No, I'm just kidding. I'm super excited. We're going to be talking about our favorite things about Rick and Michonne to help get ready for this show. And we're

[00:01:49] going to catch you guys up on everything about like what led to the series, including how Rick disappeared, who he's with and how Michonne came to be looking for him. I wonder what percentage of our listeners are like, yeah, Jason, we know more about that than probably

[00:02:04] you do. You don't need to catch us up. But I figure there's got to be some people out there who are kind of fuzzy on it, you know, and could use a catch up before we get into

[00:02:13] the series. But anyway, are you excited about the series? How are you feeling about it? I'm excited. There've been some good buzz, which I wasn't expecting. I said the first review I saw was like, this is a shamble through something. And I was like, ah, but then like

[00:02:25] other nine or 10 have read have been really positive. So yeah, I'm feeling feeling quite excited actually. I think Daryl Dixon gave me a renewed positivity about these things. So yeah, and also like it was fun and fresh. And just like jazz to see Rick and Michonne

[00:02:43] again, like just absolutely like to have them on the screen. I'm just like, oh, amazing. Like for me that makes up for a lot like even if it was Gimple, like middling Gimple. Yeah.

[00:02:54] With Rick and Michonne, I would be like so glad to see them finish that story rather than not finish it. Yeah, I feel like people are coming to visit and I'm really excited. I'm like, yeah,

[00:03:05] I'm super I mean, Rick's my favorite. And, you know, I had a thing in the news, but I'm going to talk about it now since you mentioned it. So I know a lot of you guys don't put much

[00:03:15] stock in what the critics say, but I find it kind of interesting at least to see what the trends are. And so as of now, The Ones Who Live has an 89% on Rotten Tomatoes, which

[00:03:24] makes it actually the highest rated of any of the Walking Dead series as of now. There's only nine reviews, so we'll see what happens. But here's some quotes from a few of my favorite.

[00:03:36] Sarah Beth Pollack of What to Watch says, The Walking Dead The Ones Who Live is a triumph lovingly created by Walking Dead fans for Walking Dead fans. Created by Walking Dead fans? I guess Gimple's a fan of his own show. I like Walking Dead. Cool, I guess.

[00:03:52] She said she didn't even finish watching it. I could see that, you know, like, when you put so much into something and then you leave, sometimes, like, I think a lot of times they don't want to go back and watch it.

[00:04:07] Kaya Shinyata of RogerEbert.com says each time Lincoln and Gurira are on screen, it becomes clear that while the spinoffs have been entertaining, they were missing the kind of sincerity these two actors bring to the table. So that makes it feel like, oh, add

[00:04:21] something more even than what we've been getting lately. And last Cameron Bonomolo at comicbook.com says The Ones Who Live plays out as a conspiracy thriller against the backdrop of the post zombie apocalypse, part Prison Break and part World War Z. This is The Walking Dead on the

[00:04:38] scope and scale of a zombie movie blockbuster. That's cool. So that sounds pretty cool. That's really cool. So getting into it, would you rather start with top five favorite things about Rick, top five Michonne or do the catch up first?

[00:04:56] Oh, good question. Probably top five. And you can pick who. Let's start with Michonne since I have that first in my notes here. So what are you what's we're gonna do our top five favorite things that you guys a lot of you guys wrote into

[00:05:11] so we'll go through your your things. Okay, so my fifth favorite thing about Michonne is that she is played by Danai Gurira who is amazing. She's an absolute stone cold legend. She's like this polymath of a woman who writes

[00:05:29] plays does activism always looks stunning on the red carpet. Like this is a this is a not so secret thing about me is like one of my favorite things to do is watch red carpet breakdowns or read red carpet breakdowns, particularly those by Tom and Lorenzo my favorite

[00:05:45] gay bloggers. And Danai Gurira always serves amazing looks on the red carpet. She's strong, she's intelligent. And I love that she has come into this show that's upcoming as like a third part of the triangle. So it's like her Andy Lincoln and Gimple have made this

[00:06:01] happen. Yeah. And I just She fully wrote one episode. And I think she was just, she's listed as the co creator with Gimple. Yeah, and I just love that. And I think I sadly had not heard of Danai Gurira

[00:06:15] much at all before Michonne and I'm still hoping that there's even more to come for her and I was bummed that Americana didn't get made. And she was so she left the Walking Dead to work on an adaptation of Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's book Americana, and I think

[00:06:32] with HBO, but then the project that got cut in the pandemic, and this guy, whoever, the head of discovery that became the CEO of Max and just fucked everything up. Yep. And that was a big bummer for me. And she also she was amazing in Wakanda forever

[00:06:49] and the Avengers films that she was also in. But I'm hoping for really big things for Danai Gurira. But selfishly, I'm glad that they haven't come yet. Because I think if they

[00:06:59] had, we might not have her back as Michonne. But we do and I'm psyched and I've been loving her and Andy Lincoln do red carpets and interviews together. I have a clip of them together for the news later on.

[00:07:14] So yeah, my number five is the fact that she's played by Danai Gurira, who I just think is ace. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had an interview with her and she just seemed very passionate and to like

[00:07:29] Michonne, just straightforward and like an honorable type of person. And then backstage with her at conventions. She's always very protective of her co-creators. That's what I've noticed about her the most. Want to make sure that they get treated well.

[00:07:51] Did you go up to her and you're like, so fucking gimp was a dick? And she's like, yeah. Who's that woman that used to go on Talking Dead a lot and she was on Community? Yvette Nicole Brown.

[00:08:03] Yvette Nicole Brown was a presenter at one of the conventions and I introduced Yvette Nicole Brown and she was like, you make sure and talk her up good or something like that. Like she wanted her to get her due, you know. That's really nice.

[00:08:16] Yeah. All right. Well, mine is that she has integrity. She's Michonne. She's straightforward. She always says what she thinks. There's no one that she won't stand up to. I think she's kind of egoless maybe or she doesn't have much ego. I mean,

[00:08:37] she's like Rick in that way where they're very strong personalities, but they seem to do what they do purely out of a desire to protect those that they care about, not to try to prop themselves up or gain power for the sake of power, unlike others.

[00:08:52] Dig it, dig it. It's all about just trying to do what's right for the people that they care about, being honorable, being trustworthy, brave, would never back down from a fight out of fear.

[00:09:07] I think one reason why Rick and Michonne are such a great couple, which I do think they are, is that they're both fierce and can be brutal when necessary, but they care about the people

[00:09:18] close to them and would risk their lives for them. They're leaders with drive and vision. They have integrity and honor. I know I'm saying a lot here, but I'm just thinking about Rick.

[00:09:29] They both know how to relax and be playful and appreciate little things every now and then, like that little rainbow cat that she went back for. Yeah, I love the cat. That's on my list.

[00:09:38] Or when Rick and Carl and her were walking down the train tracks for a long time, I think headed terminus. Rick was like, we're about to run out of water. He looks back and sees that Michonne

[00:09:52] and Carl are balancing on either edge of the track, trying to see who can last the longest. Carl wins, so she has to give him a candy bar. Carl chooses the good one. She's like, aww.

[00:10:05] He goes, you said I got the winner gets to choose. Then he ended up sharing with her. It's just that nice vibe. She's a well-rounded kind of a person. Yeah, I have a little rainbow cat on my computer that a listener,

[00:10:19] Claire, gave me. I can't angle it without unplugging my computer. It makes me smile every time I use my computer, which is every day. Yeah, the cat is actually one of my points. I think Michonne has a very dry sense of humor.

[00:10:35] I love that because I think it's what endears Carl to her, is the cat. But underneath the cat is her saying that she understands Carl's need to see this picture of his mom and dad and him together to show. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

[00:10:50] The context is he's been a little punk. He's like, I'm going to sneak into this place and he won't tell her why. And she is pissed off because he's being he's risking his life.

[00:11:02] And then he tells her and she's pissed. She's like, stay here. And then she goes in, kicks some ass and comes out with the photo, but also with the cat. So it's kind of like a jokey,

[00:11:11] I see you. But it's also like a thing between the two of them, which I love. Also, when looking through some of the listener feedback, I remembered Morgan asking if one of them had eaten his protein bars when they'd been in the house and clear.

[00:11:27] Yeah, I think Michonne does help herself to some of his food and says like Matt said, welcome. Just these very few lied to him, though she told him she didn't. And this is point three. Michonne is untrustworthy. She's usually trustworthy. She's usually trustworthy.

[00:11:46] Unless it's protein bars, the peanut butter ones, because they're the best ones. But yeah, my number four was that she recognizes classy cat art when she sees it. But generally,

[00:11:55] that she has a very dry sense of humor and when it comes out, she just shines like she's got such a wonderful just presence with those moments that I really always love seeing.

[00:12:05] Mm hmm. Yeah. And just saying classy cat art, that's my next one is she's got a badass style. She's just got style. She looks great and the way she is, the way she moves like she's lethal.

[00:12:22] And with the way she moves with her katana, like she's stepped out of a samurai movie from the 70s or something and she flicks the blood off of it and she's just so badass with that.

[00:12:33] And in her first appearance, she's a hooded figure with two chained armless Zed's and saves Andrea by decapitating one of them with her katana and her look with her long black dreadlocked hair and those outfits like always well fitted and kind of she has like arty stylish bandanas

[00:12:53] that she wears and like that leather zippered vest showing off her bare arms, muscular arms and her low slung belt and laced combat boots like she looks the most like she could be in a Mad Max movie. I think of any of the characters on The Walking Dead.

[00:13:09] And she owns it. Like the other thing I love is like you see this. I can't quite remember. It's not quite a dream. It's sort of like an AU of her and it must be her husband and his brother who I

[00:13:20] think are the Zed's we see her with originally and you see this thing of them. It's almost pre apocalypse talking to one another and then it's a dream or something because it turns out she's

[00:13:31] cutting bread with her sword and there are zombies but. Yeah, we don't know how much of that is real. I presumed that it was fairly real until it started getting surreal. And in that you see she's actually

[00:13:42] like super fucking smart and like arty and they're criticizing some art piece or other. It's like I thought it was derivative and things like that. They seem like NPR listeners.

[00:13:51] Yes, I was like we would have things to talk about at a dinner party. Yeah, I love that and her looks are just absolutely iconic. And she pulls it all off too. Not everyone can pull it off like she can.

[00:14:07] Yeah, that's one of the things I was annoyed about the preview for The Ones Who Live That We Saw is she was in this like I don't know weird Wakanda Forever-esque costume and I was like oh I miss

[00:14:18] the iconic Michelle look. So hopefully we'll get some classic looks in this upcoming series. What's next for you? I love her arc. So she starts off pretty closed off as just this like fierce

[00:14:33] warrior like that image of her turning up at the gates because I forget that there's not. I think she turns up like one or two episodes after Laurie dies. There's not actually a big gap between.

[00:14:44] And I forget a that they were never on the show together and be that actually it was quite close together when she appears and she's at the gate with the baby formula looking

[00:14:55] just murderous and scary. And she's so hostile and she's like a. It's like when I have to take my cat to the vet and it's just pissed off at everyone like it doesn't want you to touch it.

[00:15:05] It doesn't want anyone to fucking come near it. It's hissing. It's if it's not hissing, it's sitting there glaring at you and growling. And I love that she starts to really let her

[00:15:15] guard down with these people and we see that by season four. And a lot of that is her relationship with Carl who is really on the fence about her and doesn't like her much at all. And he thinks

[00:15:24] she's weird. He doesn't want her to come with them on this road trip. And then they really see one another and understand. And I think the final wall that comes down is with Judith

[00:15:34] when the prison is on lockdown because of the flu. Beth is holding Judith and she's crying a lot. And Michonne's really struggling with that. And we later find out that's because she lost a child,

[00:15:44] like a young child in the in the apocalypse. But she kind of gets past it and that's the moment where she sort of becomes Judith's mom. And I just love that she knows what people around

[00:15:56] her seem to need. And she steps up to it. And I think you're right. I think she's very egoless. She becomes she becomes a mother to Carl and Judith without question. And yeah, that that

[00:16:09] active love and chosen family is such a wonderful part of that arc. And I thought it was really interesting in season nine when they pull her back into that spiky porcupine shell of being

[00:16:21] scared and defensive only to pull her out once again, but then have the heads on pikes happen. And it's just really heartbreaking because we're upset because we see Michonne closed off again. Then we see her open up again. But there are some disastrous consequences.

[00:16:38] Well, then when she had to kill those kids. Oh my God, she was closed off after that. Yeah, that would fuck you up. Understandably so. Yeah, absolutely. Fuck you right up. Massacring a whole heap of children.

[00:16:51] I mean, all the that's the thing about this show. They've put the characters through hell over and over again. I was watching something else was a yellow jackets and Jocelyn turned up and I was like, oh, it's Jocelyn. She was evil children army.

[00:17:07] Tara on true blood. Did you watch that? That's what I know her from. That's a great character. Yeah. So as much as I hated Jocelyn, I still have a warm place in my heart for her.

[00:17:21] But yeah, I think Michonne's whole arc is wonderful. And I hope my main hope for the show I think is that there's a good resolution to it because I think I'm sure it'll come up in

[00:17:30] some feedback and stuff. I think, you know, the big issue we all have with Michonne's arc is her leaving the kids. But I'm also like, that was so obviously an actor wanting out of their

[00:17:41] contract that I'm sort of like, all right, you know, I don't think Michonne would have done that. Yeah. I don't know if they can wrap that up in a way that would make it feel okay with me. So

[00:17:56] same as you. I'm like, I think I'm just going to have to let that go and chalk it up to behind the scenes stuff. And because it does seem out of character for her to me. The ones who live is

[00:18:06] actually I don't I think this is probably a spoiler, but it's actually Judith's therapy session where she imagines the reasons that her parents fucking left her. Because they were kidnapped. They were kidnapped. They must have done that right.

[00:18:23] They had no choice. And they're just like, nah, your parents are just trash, man. I mean, it's one thing to leave to go look for Rick, but I'm going to go over this in the catch

[00:18:35] up section. But Michonne was off looking for weapons to fight the Whisperers in the war that they were having with Virgil. Yeah, on that island. And she found some evidence that Rick

[00:18:47] was still alive. And so she just walkie talkied Judith and said, Hey, I'm going to go look for him. And so just have her make that decision while she was already away. And Judith lied and said,

[00:18:59] yeah, the Whisperer war's over. And it just felt so sad that Judith is like, I'm going to let my mom leave me and lie. And it just felt like, man, even honestly, even with Michonne or Danai Gurira

[00:19:12] deciding it was time to leave and do something else with their career, which is perfectly reasonable, they still could have handled the story at least a little better where maybe Michonne

[00:19:21] was back at Alexandria and was like, I there's evidence of Rick. I'm going to go look for him. Daryl, can you please take care of Judith? You know, that would have been even just a little

[00:19:32] bit better to do it more responsibly. Actually wrote in and said exactly the same thing. He's like, I don't grudge being a father figure, but I didn't like that I wasn't

[00:19:40] asked. And that's why I'm in France and not coming back. So my next one is that she has a good judge of character mostly, and she's not quick to befriend or trust anyone. Hence what you're talking about

[00:19:54] how at first she was sort of standoffish with everybody. She never trusted the governor, rightly so. And she took a while to trust Rick and everybody. But once she does have your trust,

[00:20:06] then she's fiercely loyal to you. She will fight for you, put herself in danger, be effective. She'll kill for you. She's definitely someone you want on your side. And even with Virgil,

[00:20:20] like she kind of didn't really trust him or seem to like him at all, but she was very desperate for weapons. And so she went along, but she was very tried to stay observant and stuff. Still ended up

[00:20:33] in a cell, hopped up on shrooms. But we all have bad days. But for the most part, I think the way she handles people is she's very careful about who she'll let in, who she'll let in. But then what she

[00:20:50] does, she's tight as hell with them. I like that. I agree with that. I have for my next point, one of the things I think it goes for both of them, but I'm putting it particularly with Michonne,

[00:21:02] because I think it's something that can, like all shows can struggle when a character pairing gets together. Like it can either make or break a show. And sometimes you see they're like, oh no, we have

[00:21:15] to split them back up. This is not working or whatever. But one thing I liked about Rick and Michonne as a couple is neither of them really changed after they got together and they made

[00:21:25] each other better. And I think that was really important. Nobody became helpless or stupid. Nobody became an asshole. There wasn't really any manufactured drama. I suppose you don't really need manufactured drama when you're in a zombie apocalypse, but I appreciated that it didn't

[00:21:41] take away from their characters. And one of the things that's coming up a lot about this series is that Danai Gurira in particular really wanted to lean into it being a love story

[00:21:51] because she's like, you know, often in The Walking Dead, you don't have a lot of time for for love stories. And it's funny because rewatching season two, which if you've not been listening is

[00:21:59] what we've been doing up to this point. You see Glenn and Maggie's courtship, and that's probably the most traditional love story. And even then it's not very traditional in all the things that

[00:22:10] happen, but you see those feelings build and grow. So it's been interesting to me to think, yeah, with Rick and Michonne, it kind of just happens, but in quite an organic way. But then they get

[00:22:22] on with it like Jesus finds them in bed and they both just hop out of bed, butt naked, ready to fight him, which is like the summary of it. They can be in love, they can be having sexy time,

[00:22:32] but they're still going to stand up and take arms when they need to. And I respect that from the show's point of view is like a storytelling thing that they kept them strong.

[00:22:42] I just think they're doing these top five lists, much like they helped me appreciate Daryl even more. They helped me appreciate Michonne and Rick's relationship more. And I already did, but it's clear when you just think about them a little bit that they're very alike.

[00:23:01] They're just such strong people and loyal, and also they're leaders. They're both leaders. And like you said, they make each other better. They both kind of pushed each other to... A central question of The Walking Dead is always, can you come back from the darkness that you did,

[00:23:19] the dark things that you did? And they both pushed each other to do that, to come back from dark things that they did and try to be more civilized and to impart that attitude onto the

[00:23:32] communities that they were leading, to lead them into a less barbaric... I mean, from a barbaric place into a more civilized place. And because they're both so powerful that they were able to

[00:23:46] set out in that direction, that's an inspiring thing. And that's my next one that she's a great leader and she led Alexandria. And I especially liked that she drafted that multi-community charter of rights and freedoms. Established the common laws for the communities, Alexandria,

[00:24:05] Hilltop, the Kingdom, Oceanside and Sanctuary, which after the Saviors, after Negan was defeated, they tried to incorporate the Saviors. And I think that was my favorite thing that she ever did.

[00:24:17] Because I just... Looking at The Walking Dead in total from a bigger point of view, after it's all said and done, I say this a lot, but it's like we see the collapse of civilization and then we see

[00:24:32] it come back at the end. And before we got to the Commonwealth, we saw this where she... I think they were in Washington, DC and she got inspired by some sayings on the wall or something about freedom and civilization. It was the... Was it not the...

[00:24:50] Some museum or something? Yeah, it was the Smithsonian or something. But it was... Was it the Declaration of Independence? It was something. I don't know. Something like that. Sorry, America. I don't know your history so well, but yeah.

[00:25:00] I remember feeling like, oh wow, yeah, this is inspiring. She wants to come back to where things are fair and civilized and just, and people can be at peace and be free to do the things that they

[00:25:11] want to do and have art and have things be fair and just move together in a more inspired direction where we all take care of each other. And that's... Rick had... When he decided not to kill Negan,

[00:25:27] that was sort of a big step in that direction. Nice start. Yeah. And Michonne and him from that point forward until he got taken away were working on that together. And so I think that's great. Can we talk comic or are we not?

[00:25:41] Yeah, it's fine. I think at this point it's okay. I don't know. I guess if you want to give people a warning if they're still comic spoiler averse to skip ahead a little bit, but whatever.

[00:25:52] Spoiler warning. I like that a lot because in the comics two things are very different. One is that Michonne essentially gets Yumiko's Commonwealth arc. And I loved that in season 10, 11, season 11, because we get to season... I don't remember the number. 11 was the final one.

[00:26:13] 11. I loved that they had Yumiko in that role because I think Eleanor Matsuura is amazing, but we see Michonne integrate with the Commonwealth and become eventually a Judge Hawthorne. That's right. She rises right to the top.

[00:26:27] And you get the sense that she's integral in setting the course for what's left of humanity. Yeah. And you actually see her doling out some of that justice and bylaws in the final issue,

[00:26:38] in a good way. Not like she chops everyone's heads off and it's cool. More like there's a courtroom scene that's very powerful. Well, she kind of made it seem like it was all impartial, but really she loved Carl. So she

[00:26:50] kind of let him off the hook if I remember right. Yeah, exactly. Because Carl's cute. That's the kind of judgment I'm going to give. So cute. He gets off the hook. And I guess the other big differences, and I'm sure everyone knows

[00:26:58] this, is that in the comics it's Rick and Andrea till the end. Till the end of both their arcs anyway. Michonne kind of does her own thing and has relationships, I think with Tyrese. Ezekiel.

[00:27:09] Ezekiel and Bob. It's interesting that they tend to be paired off with people of their own race, Rick and Michonne, in the comics. I don't think Kirkman's a racist. I just... And actually that's... No, I don't either.

[00:27:21] That I like about this is I remember when Rick and Michonne got together, reading a couple of think pieces and talking to a couple of friends who were like, this is really cool that the kick-ass power couple at the head of the show are mixed race.

[00:27:35] Like it's a white guy and a black woman. And I'm like, yeah, it is. It's really fucking cool. And I think the conversation has changed since then that now that's maybe less remarkable,

[00:27:45] but I thought it was baller that The Walking Dead did that. I thought it was really fucking cool. And it was well-deserved. And I love... Yeah, exactly. I love when that kind of thing happens because I want to see

[00:27:59] characters of all different types together and representation and that kind of a thing. And I like it, especially when it just feels organic. Like it doesn't feel like they did it just to have that happen, you know? Because it totally makes sense that those two characters

[00:28:16] would be together to me. In the comics as well, to be honest, there's part of me in the comics that's like, oh, why are those two not together? They're like such good friends. Like they're such good friends in the comics.

[00:28:24] But it was kind of to me in the comics, it was a bit like Carol and Daryl are on the show. Like I like them as friends. And Andrea was cooler in the comics. Yeah, yeah. Andrea was a lot cooler.

[00:28:34] Really good. Yeah. It was all like, I always say it seems like a whole different person to me. I think one of my favorite bits of trivia, and I couldn't find a source for this,

[00:28:41] but I remember reading at the time was that Andy Lincoln's mom was really into Michonne. She was like, when are you going to get together? Like she's like, they seem like a nice couple. And I'm like, oh, Mrs. Lincoln, that's cute.

[00:28:55] Your mom's watching the show like, I don't like that, Jesse. You should get together with Michonne. Like, sure. Why not? All right, my turn? Yes. This is my only last one. And I mean, really, my favorite thing is that the whole multi-community charter.

[00:29:12] I just love that so much. But she's just fierce. She's powerful. She's effective. She's one of the best fighters. She's quick. I mean, she might also just like go around the corner and then appear on the roof. She's magic. She can teleport. She's magic. She killed the governor.

[00:29:31] Well, she impaled him and left him for dead. And then April came along and shot him, but basically killed him. She killed many of the governor's thugs, many saviors, many whispers. I love that she can be so intimidating, but like I said, well-rounded.

[00:29:47] She's respectful of everyone who deserves it. And she's gentle and nurturing to her kids. And so she's just kind of a well-rounded person. But when it comes to it, she can be so lethal and is one of the most powerful characters on the show. Oh, yeah.

[00:30:04] Well, that leads nicely into mine, which was, I think, whether intentionally or not, Michonne upped the ante for women on The Walking Dead. I feel like she was a game changer. Like we were starting, we're seeing it in season two now again, do tune into our season

[00:30:17] two rewatch, that like Maggie has always been a badass. Carol's starting to come out of her shell a bit. Andrea is also present. No, Andrea's becoming a bit of a badass. She's shooting stuff, but there's still this kind of, it still doesn't feel quite equitable.

[00:30:36] But then Michonne coming in, I don't know. I feel like by the time Michonne comes in partway through season three, by season four, it's an even keel for women and men at that point. Like there are, Carol's come into her own, Michonne is there, Maggie's proven her grit

[00:30:52] time and time again. So I don't, I couldn't say it's all Michonne. I don't think she was the only badass woman, but I think she came in at a transitional period for women on The Walking Dead and really pushed it into the next level of

[00:31:05] badassery that we've come to know and love. Yeah, it would have been interesting to see what Michonne would have been like if she was part of the group at the quarry in season one. It would have been a whole different dynamic, I imagine. Can you imagine?

[00:31:19] That would be really strange. Conflict. I don't think she would have stood for any of that bullshit. No, I don't think she would have liked Shane very much. Shane or Ed especially. Oh, fucking Ed, man. You would have had his head chopped off.

[00:31:32] You would have had his head chopped off. All right, let's get into, is that all? That's it. Yeah. Okay, let's get into some listener responses about what's great about Michonne. Everything, the end. Okay, so first response is from Lani Gilbert who says, everything. Sorry, Lani. Simple.

[00:31:53] Santos S Sanchez says her relationship with the young Carl. Yes. Kirstie C Kirstie CF says, honestly, her muscles. Winky face. She's just a complete badass. Completely agree. Mark Nichols says she steals peanut butter protein bars and Jennifer McGinley replied, well, the mat did say welcome.

[00:32:11] You're not wrong, Jennifer. Damien Vitale says she kicks ass but she is compassionate. Loved her bond with Andrea in season three. I mean, yeah, that is cute. Girls night. Becky Fenner Anderson says she's fierce.

[00:32:24] A survivor doesn't run from any challenge and will do whatever it takes to protect the one she loves. Yes, absolutely. Dre Manoni says it took me a while to warm up to Michonne, but I love how badass she is with her katana.

[00:32:36] She just always seemed so confident and in control. I mean, when I talked to Danai Gurira, it was after her first few episodes in season three and Michonne hadn't said much and she just seemed pissed off all the time.

[00:32:50] And I remember the fans were just like, she's just angry. They weren't taking to her, a lot of them. And I tried to bring that up in a very sort of tactful way and it seemed to worry her.

[00:33:03] And I said, I think once she starts to talk more, simply, and reveal more of herself that people will come around. And they did. And I remember Danai Gurira wanted to talk to me about that after the interview was over. What are they saying?

[00:33:19] She wanted to just have an honest to goodness chat about it. We did. And then I asked their publicist if I could publish that part and they said no. But it was a cool chat anyway. Claire Redaruri says, I love that she's a strong mother.

[00:33:35] Unpopular belief, I'm sure, since she left her kids to go off and find Rick. I might do the same though. Wouldn't we all, Claire? I don't even know where my kids are. But I love the loving, loyal, protective mother that she chose to be to Carl and Judith.

[00:33:52] Absolutely. Except for that one thing, she was amazing. I love that, Claire. I love the idea of choosing that role as well because she didn't owe them anything, but she's been this amazing presence in their lives. RJ's she kind of owes, but otherwise.

[00:34:04] Yeah, but I mean, RJ's are right off, isn't he? No, I'm joking. I'm joking. Oh, RJ. Evan Brickman says, I like that she rendered a couple of Zs safe, put them in chains and made use of an otherwise abundant resource. I think it was an ingenuitive, ingenuitive?

[00:34:23] Oh, I've learned a new word, ingenuitive survival technique that she apparently never felt the need to employ on camera again. Or at least I don't think she did. I think she did it again. Almost. Yeah. When they're split up after the prison, right? Yeah.

[00:34:36] Yeah, I think she did it again then. And I love it too, but I think it looks like it shouldn't work to me because when you're in a crowd of zombies, they're going to eat you.

[00:34:50] So why, if you happen to have two chain to you, would they all ignore you? It just and in the comic, it's that's one of the things like there were so many things in the comic where I'm like, how is that going to translate to the screen?

[00:35:01] And like the whispers, for example, I wasn't sure, but I thought it was better on screen. But that with Michonne and her pets, even though it looked cool, as soon as it came on screen,

[00:35:10] to me, it just looked even more like, well, why are the other zombies not eating her? You would be better off just covering yourself with guts. But, you know, Michonne, there's a bit of Michonne that's like vibes. It was like performance art.

[00:35:22] She's like the aesthetic of this is vibes. Yeah, do you see how I'm dominating these two? It's a statement on the patriarchy. Kelly Burgess says she's amazing. Her strength, both physically and emotionally inspires me. I feel like she actually, she's actually the heart of the group at times.

[00:35:41] She definitely is a driving force in keeping them together. One of my favorite characters, and I'm starting to really get excited to see where her story goes. Yeah, me too. You, me too, Kelly. Andy Fisher says I love Michonne, the sexiest couple on TV. Yep, agree.

[00:35:56] Deny makes you feel everything that Michonne goes through. The despair that she carried after the prison fell in the episode after she wandered searching for survivors until finally finding Rick and Carl. So heartbreaking. And no one looks better with a sword. A true ninja. Get right on.

[00:36:12] Oh, that was an iconic moment when Rick says it's for you when the door is knocking and it's for Carl. Sorry, when after when she finds Rick and Carl at the house, she knocks on the door and Rick looks and he says to Carl, it's for you.

[00:36:27] I don't even remember that. Oh, it's beautiful. It's so good. Yeah, thinking about all this stuff has me excited for when we get back to the rewatch. Right. Get into the Michonne stuff. Alma Contreras says I love her badassery. LOL.

[00:36:41] I just recently watched the season nine episode where Michonne had to kill those bad kids and her old friend because they were trying to take Judith. Plus she was pregnant with RJ. This episode caught me in my feels.

[00:36:55] I felt so bad for her having to kill those kids. I'd forgotten how traumatized she was after that time. Yeah. So we're gonna get to see hopefully Michonne tell Rick that he has a son. That'll be that'll be cool.

[00:37:07] I think we're gonna see tell Rick that she killed a bunch of kids. I'm like, yeah, that'll be gripping. I wanted to change the subject. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that'll be lovely because yeah, they have a kid man. They have a little kid together. So cute.

[00:37:19] Because he didn't even know she was pregnant. So I don't think so. Yeah. Sam Lowe says Michonne is a character I remember immediately connecting with. She was a strong, brave, intelligent woman who had adapted to the apocalypse.

[00:37:31] She was a much welcome female character after Laurie Carroll up until that time. Andrea Beth. Maggie was a great fighter, but Michonne was the boss in the apocalypse. She was also really funny and warm and just plain cool. Also, she is freaking gorgeous. Agree, Sam.

[00:37:45] Agree with all of that. True. Vincent Pagano says the rewatch with you guys has been amazing. Thank you. Aw, thank you. After Walking Dead ended, I was missing your guys' coverage of the show. I've been following along and admittedly have gotten carried away and watched up until Michonne

[00:37:59] left the show to prepare for The Ones Who Live. Still listen to the rewatch coverage every week though. A lot of people just, yeah, they kept on going. I think after doing this rewatch my thoughts on Michonne are simple. Badass. She has some flaws as we all do.

[00:38:13] However, the true measure of a person is how they bounce back and keep fighting. She never stops fighting. She always bounces back. Her mercy prevails over her wrath. Vince, love that. Chandra Wright says Michonne is everything. I mean literally she's all the things.

[00:38:29] Smart, strategic, visionary, loyal, brave, compassionate, fierce, beautiful, capable, strong, playful, convincing, loving, just to name a few. She's all the things you want a hero to be and in just the right doses. I always remember one of the Woodbury goons called her a weapon with a weapon.

[00:38:44] It was true. See this is funny because in Scotland a weapon is an insult for like an idiot. You're like that boy's a total weapon but I understand that it's different here. Chandra also says but she becomes so much more than that.

[00:38:56] Do we ever learn what her pre-fall occupation was? The flashback house, was it real? She seems like she could have been in a profession where gaining trust was important and she could definitely have been a politician. The good kind. Yeah. I don't know. We don't. She's a lawyer.

[00:39:11] Yeah, she's a comic and I think up until this point I had just presumed she was a lawyer in the show too but when I saw this comment from Chandra I looked it up and it seems like they never really said what she did before.

[00:39:23] No, it was never confirmed. I think she was a samurai. A professional. Megan Dively-Layman says I love how Judith helped turn Michonne around from a dark path that she was on. Everybody remembers the relationship between Michonne and Carl and Michonne and Rick but

[00:39:42] you don't often hear it mentioned that the reason she found the group to start was because Glenn and Maggie got kidnapped by Merle when they were out looking for formula and Michonne picked up the basket of baby formula and found the prison.

[00:39:54] Her first act as part of the group was one of caretaking to Judith. Oh, that's interesting. I'll never forget how she was carrying her on her back as they fought their way out of Gabriel's church and she raised her as her own.

[00:40:09] She's her mother in every way that counts. Oh, I love that. Josie Bowen-Echtel says Michonne is one of the best written female characters in television. She is a badass but has the biggest heart. She's a fierce protector and leader.

[00:40:22] I would absolutely trust her to have my back but most importantly, I would trust her with my children. I think that's actually her best quality. Her ability to be gentle, encouraging, kind and strong as a mother. I loved watching her evolve into a mum to Carl specifically.

[00:40:35] As a stepmum myself, this dynamic hit home for me and exactly portrayed how I hope to be with my stepdaughter. Oh, Josie. Start out as a trusted friend, confidant and evolve into a true mother.

[00:40:45] Also, I love that she's not afraid to let Rick know he's being too much. She truly holds him accountable like a real partnership. Yes, Queen. Yes, Josie. Yes to all. And it was kind of hardest to watch when Rick was really bowing to Negan and you could tell

[00:41:04] Michonne didn't like that but she went along with it for a while. She supported him. Yeah, but then I think she called him out eventually and he rose to the occasion. And in that moment, I don't think he was afraid for himself at all.

[00:41:20] He was just afraid for the people he cared about. Yeah, he felt a huge sense of guilt, didn't he? Like, yeah, like he tends to. That's great, Josie. Jemma Hall says Michonne is the Buffy of my 30s. Oh, I love that.

[00:41:35] She was amazing from the moment she appeared on screen as the cloaked figure who saved Andrea and then the bond she forms with her during the winter. Michonne has a sad past and she cut herself off in the beginning with only two walkers for company.

[00:41:48] I absolutely love her first interaction with Rick at the fence carrying Judith's baby formula. She seems troubled and closed off but we see her cry when holding Judith and then the bond she forms with Carl from clear onwards, I'd say is lovely to watch.

[00:42:01] She has the choice of going back on the road with the walkers after the prison but she chooses Carl and Rick. I've been watching season five and six and seeing her become this strong leader and she's

[00:42:11] not afraid to stand up to Rick and clonk him over the head when needed. Oh yeah, that's really nice. Oh Jemma, oh damn it. Yes, that is her best moment. That is a good moment, yeah. Spooky. I love how that's like the epitome of their romance.

[00:42:26] I think I love her, doof. I love how their romance blossoms and it's truly a strong match between them. In losing Rick she's devastated but becomes an even stronger leader in charge of Alexandria and mother to Judith and RJ.

[00:42:41] I love how she teaches Judith to use a mini katana. Michonne has been through a lot but she's tough as old boots and has a kind heart and a good sense of humor. Wow Jemma, you're really on form here with this.

[00:42:52] Nobody can wield a sword like this woman. I cannot wait to see her track down Rick and what will come of it. I just hope she can get back to those kids because being left with Aunt Carol never bodes well.

[00:43:03] As long as they don't eat any cookies or go into any fucking flower fields they'll be fine. Don't listen to Carol's stories. Just be okay, you're fine. Keep your eye on her. If you see any flowers don't take your eyes off Carol. Don't take your eyes off Carol.

[00:43:20] Never look at the flower. All right that was great. That was fun. Yay. Now let's get into Rick. Who's my favorite character on The Walking Dead in case you didn't know and to prove it

[00:43:36] here's my ringtone that I've had for the last like I don't know seven or eight years. So I just think as good as The Walking Dead was I think we both thought after he left and

[00:43:59] in some ways because he left that he was still the spine of the show and I don't think it would have been the show it was without Rick. I think that his presence as an actor and the character on the show elevated The Walking

[00:44:16] Dead and helped shape it in so many ways. I think. Yeah. So do you want to go first for this one? Sure. Go for it. So my first one is that he cares deeply. He's a protector. I think that's actually one of his flaws at the start.

[00:44:38] He cares about everyone and he wants to do what's right and what he feels is right is protecting people. I think that's why he's a police officer and he's such a hero and you know I'm not trying

[00:44:53] to be like pick a fight but what I always have my eye lately on what you were saying about him hiding out and I want to see some moments where that's what you're getting from it because I don't see that.

[00:45:12] I think he's actually really tuned into people and just wanting to make sure that everyone is okay and that is respected and cared for and protected and I think that's why he actually spreads himself too thin because of that.

[00:45:25] He wants to make sure everyone I don't think it's about hiding. I think it's about caring about people and even to the point where he'll go back to Atlanta and save Merle you know or why he says sorry this happened to you to bicycle girl or gives

[00:45:39] a eulogy for the zombie that died because he's just trying to respect every single person and he just doesn't have the bandwidth for that. Like I don't think he seems like he's hiding.

[00:45:52] He's just spreading himself too thin I guess is what my sense of it is and he has this compulsion to protect and he takes on this leadership role. He even demands it I would say but he seems tangibly weighed down with it by it.

[00:46:11] For whatever reason he just feels responsible for everyone at the beginning and then over time that narrows down to fewer people but he just feels so responsible and I think that's why well I'll talk about more of that later but yeah he just for whatever reason he just

[00:46:27] feels responsible for everyone's safety and steps up and takes on that role of trying to protect them. Gina Yeah so I agree with a lot of that. I think with Rick I think the thing I'm always trying to get to is like he can't sit with himself.

[00:46:43] Like he can't sit with his grief or his fear in healthy ways sometimes but it does mean that he goes off and does heroic things but I think the one time we do see him sit with his grief it

[00:46:57] pushes him over the edge like when Laurie's gone at the prison you see that that pushes him to absolute breaking point. I do think he cares about other people. I think honestly at the start of The Walking Dead Rick's basically like an open wound.

[00:47:10] Like he's feeling everything and feeling it 10 times harder I think because he hasn't had the chance to get his head around it. Those six weeks have cost him because he didn't live through it's the frog in boiling water

[00:47:23] thing if you put a frog in boiling water while it's cold the frog won't. It will adjust and do that whereas if you throw a frog into boiling water it will jump right back out. Trevor But he can't jump out of the zombie apocalypse.

[00:47:34] Gina No you can't jump out of it and I think with Rick yeah I think all the points you've made are really valid but I do think he has a tendency to

[00:47:44] maybe it's not so much go where he shouldn't go because I agree that there's a moral case for almost everything he does but I think the thing that would upset me as a partner

[00:47:53] or a co-parent with Rick would be and admittedly he doesn't really do this with Michonne so maybe he just doesn't want to be around Laurie but there are some points where she is asking

[00:48:03] him to stay and be with them as a family where he's not going to do it for a more noble cause. Trevor Yeah and see my sense is he's doing that not because he's trying to get away from them or doesn't want to sit with himself but just

[00:48:20] because he feels compelled he takes responsibility for everyone and he feels compelled to go off and fix it you know yeah not to get away from something but just to live up to that responsibility that he's taken on for himself.

[00:48:35] But you're right then that means he's like take he's gone away from like leave he leaves Carl and Laurie unprotected and almost loses them. Angelea And it's also like I mean not to go down the road of like psychologizing it too much but like

[00:48:49] he is a cop and I think in certain roles like cop or soldier or roles where your role is to protect and serve that does cause some interesting relationships within a family because you

[00:49:01] your duty isn't just to your family you have an obligate duty elsewhere and I think what Rick maybe takes longer to shake off in the apocalypse is the obligate duty to protect and serve the community as a whole rather than just his own people in his own family.

[00:49:16] And I think he becomes stronger when he starts to focus in on one thing I'll say about our boy Rick who I love very much and I'm sure you'll find out why in the next the next few minutes.

[00:49:28] He's not good at moderation like it's kind of like either we love everyone or let's kill all the saviors like but that said he's better than Morgan who's much more flip floppy.

[00:49:40] But I do think with Rick you see him his struggle almost always comes from not knowing how to modulate how to sit in that middle ground and I think in a way that's why Michonne is quite

[00:49:48] good for him because she tempers some of that with a bit of logic and a bit of commonwealth law as the commonwealth is in the common good not the commonwealth which is completely different. Yeah. What do you got?

[00:50:02] I got the Andy Lincoln because much like with Danai Gurira I just think Andy Lincoln was made to play this role. I remember the skepticism when he got it and now I'm like yes.

[00:50:13] I've just written he gives it 100% at all times and I've also written the snot bubble because one of the things I remember most about episode 701 apart from Glenn getting his head bashed in is Andy Lincoln giving like such a grotesquely brilliant performance of a completely

[00:50:30] broken man but then when he's like weeping over Carl's arm. This show is so fucked up when he's about to chop Carl's arm off this snot bubble. And I'm like oh but also no vanity he goes in he throws himself in he's gonna blow snot

[00:50:50] bubbles he's gonna give you 110% in a scene and the rewatch has made me appreciate that even more like those scenes where he's running with Sophia. But you know Andrew Lincoln's running full pelt like he's not doing it in half measures and it's little things like

[00:51:03] that where I'm like he just made Rick this character that gives it everything and I think he just I don't know he just had the right heart and soul to do it and in a way I'm glad

[00:51:16] he left when he wanted to because I wouldn't have wanted to see Rick become anything other than full Rick and full Andy Lincoln. I don't think he would have I think he's a professional

[00:51:26] but you know when sometimes you can tell people are like itching to do their own thing or go elsewhere. Maybe yeah maybe it was similar for Andrew Lincoln like maybe he felt himself going down from giving 110% down to 105 and he's like I don't want it to dip below 100.

[00:51:43] He's like this is unacceptable and everyone else is like I give it maybe 70 like Norman Regis is like some days I don't even have lines. I just run. I'm just myself like I'm just myself. I film that or.

[00:51:56] So yeah I think that passion that that commitment it bleeds into how we feel about Rick you know coming from Andrew Lincoln that emotion and intensity and everything. And every single person that was on the show including like I think the Dan Fogler crew

[00:52:14] who all came in after Rick left same episode so they must have had some slight overlap said that he set the tone of everything. He was an absolute gentleman and I just think in today's fucking society it's so rare for

[00:52:29] a show to kind of come along and for there to be no bad blood and nothing but love and respect for the main character and I just think that's great. I really love that. Yeah yeah it's decent you know and Rick is a decent man and yeah.

[00:52:42] There was some drama on it with Darabont versus AMC and also Glenn Mazara versus Laurie Holden but as far as the general tone and I think well one of my points is Andrew

[00:52:59] Lincoln too and it might be kind of weird to say your favorite things about a character is the actor that played him but I've just said twice so fuck it. What I know about Andrew Lincoln makes me like Rick even more and everyone whoever talks

[00:53:16] about Andrew Lincoln who's acted on The Walking Dead like you said whether he was even on it with him or not said he set the tone on the set and that he would do things like you

[00:53:26] know when you have to shoot a scene between two people from different angles and one of them doesn't need to be there when you're shooting the other one so they often have a stand-in delivering lines that Andrew Lincoln would always stay there and deliver the lines

[00:53:39] to help get the best performance out of the other person you know. Yeah and just a general feeling of kindness and love and respect on the set and when I was there filming the season two finale and a bunch of us zombies were next to the barn

[00:53:58] when Carl and Rick were coming off of the top of the RV we're getting ready to shoot that scene and there was some gunfire there I think it was him firing his gun at a couple

[00:54:07] zombies and we were about to shoot and he said oh wait wait wait do the zombies over here have their earplugs because there's going to be gunfire in the scene and we didn't and

[00:54:18] they got it for us and it was just because Andrew Lincoln is such a good guy you know. So the reason you're able to listen to me talk absolute shit is because of Andy Lincoln. Thanks Andy you've made Jason's life so much worse.

[00:54:30] And I moderated panels for Walker StuckerCon for years and Andrew Lincoln you know we did sometimes up to 14 conventions a year and he would only go to the Atlanta one where kind of like the mothership convention the biggest one where the show is filmed and everything

[00:54:51] and the London one as he's English and he was so generous with his time and kind to the fans and he like Norman Reedus and Jeffrey Dean Morgan God love him they would go to several

[00:55:06] conventions a year and pull in six figures over a weekend easy. Andrew Lincoln would go to those two and he would give all of the money that he made to charity and he never publicized that

[00:55:18] as far as I know either we knew about it. I think I knew through you that that happened. And so what the hell dude so he's stupid that's another thing. So he's a dumbass,

[00:55:28] he's a poor dumbass. We love him. We love to see it. It's just warmed my heart to do that and he was just a good guy to be around I interviewed him on the podcast a couple of times and on panels and

[00:55:38] he was always really considerate and attentive and fun too playful you know and I have one of my favorite moments here from the interview we did with him on our hundredth episode on play

[00:55:55] because it's one of my favorite segments. I think I mean I can tell Andrew that you just really love the whole process and I think and you've been so raw and emotional and it feels to me anyway when

[00:56:08] I'm watching it that you're actually having those emotions and I imagine you are but I just want to ask you it feels I really believe that when we see true emotions like that as an audience watching

[00:56:19] TV that it unlocks some of that in us too and that's one reason why we like it because we get to open up a little bit. Have you ever thought about that? Yeah I mean I think that that's why I

[00:56:33] go to movies and theater and I think I believe in the power to affect people and to educate people and to emotionally connect with people. That's the point for me I mean I love the fact and it was

[00:56:51] Frank Darabont always said to me he said it's a Trojan horse we go inside people think we're a genre thing and then we break people's hearts and we tell them what it is to be alive. Nice

[00:57:03] that's beautiful. And I went count me in I want to do that. That's it. Oh that's amazing. Yeah I love that. I just hear I mean not only is that a great sentiment but just how what a great person

[00:57:19] he is to talk to you know to interview just it's a pleasure to be around that guy. I just god love him. God love him we love him. All right what else? All right we spoke about it's funny I had this

[00:57:34] point for Rick but not for Michaud and you had it from Michaud iconic looks the hat the boots the beard. That's all I've written is the hat the boots the beard. Yeah that famous cowboy hat

[00:57:48] the cowboy boots not the cowboy hat the sheriff's hat sorry cowboy hat that would be a bit different sheriff's hat cowboy boots. The way that he grows into his lovely salt and pepper beard as the

[00:58:00] seasons go on but that's maybe just something I enjoy I don't know. He looks no I don't think it is and he looks more sort of clean cut and then he gets more disheveled and grizzled and

[00:58:13] you said he's an open wound but then he gets more calloused. Yeah he does and he I don't know he roughs up a bit and it's funny because someone mentioned in the was it a reddit forum or something

[00:58:24] that I think we even spoke about on the podcast that Aaron on the show actually ends up looking like comic book Rick does at the end of his comic book Rick. He's lost his hand he's had his

[00:58:34] head he shaves his head at that point I think because he's older and losing his hair and it was funny that whether deliberately or not Ross McCann kind of took on the iconic Rick in later

[00:58:47] seasons appearance but yeah just the whole aesthetic of Rick and that oh my god the jacket with the fur like the fleece collar that he like killed a bunch of claimers in and and the way he

[00:59:00] holds his gun he kind of angles it down the gangster ship as was it t-dog calls it when Jimmy tries to do it. Jimmy's holding it sideways but Rick has his own special like I don't know

[00:59:12] what it's like he's bearing down on you or something and he's not I was thinking will he get his coat python back in this season but he won't because Judith has it but yeah I love that

[00:59:21] and I love that you know maybe you will the little katana the coat python the hat they're all Judith now which I mean they're talking about this as if it's a mini-series and it's been unclear at times

[00:59:33] but they're like Denia Greer and Andrew Lincoln say yeah we want to finish the story that we started so it sounds like it's just going to be six episodes and out which I think if that's true

[00:59:44] we still maybe they'll surprise us at the end but if that is true and it's a one and done that maybe they will be at the Commonwealth at the end of it and we will see Judith

[00:59:53] and RJ yeah I think if if and when this their story ends that we need to see them reunited with their kids if I don't see Rick Grimes and Judith reunite I will haunt the shit out of

[01:00:08] everyone and I want to see them Daryl and Rick reunited too I will fucking come back to earth and haunt Paris I will haunt London. The cliffhanger at the end is Rick and Michonne saying they're gonna honeymoon in France. Yeah I love that but here it's really cool

[01:00:29] there's a continent we want to visit like okay all right my turn so my second one my next one I should say is that he changed over the course of the series yes I love flawed characters and

[01:00:45] Rick starts out as just a total hero but he gets really dark and brutal so biting Joe the Claimer's throat after he and his men nearly hurt Carl chopping up Gareth and the termites in the

[01:00:58] church with his red machete wanting to go in and kill everyone at the Grady hospital to save Beth even though he didn't know much about them leading his people to kill the saviors in their sleep

[01:01:09] after only hearing what they did but not knowing whether any of these people in particular did it under duress or anything firing at a stranger without knowing anything about them only to find

[01:01:19] out later that was a friendly person from Ezekiel's kingdom so and just his general vibe changed over time he had that open wound feel at the beginning but he felt more calloused over and and I think

[01:01:31] but even with that he had at the core of his being willing to do anything to protect the people he cared about his just his circle of care shrunk down and I just think that deep need to protect

[01:01:42] and and that responsibility he felt and then losing a lot of the people that he tried to save is what damaged him so much and calloused him over and and just caused him to become

[01:01:58] so dark and you know lost his mind seeing ghost Laurie at the prison and had to kill Shane and lost T-dog and Glenn and so many people but then you know you said Morgan flip-flopped a lot

[01:02:13] I think Rick has more of an arc that makes sense he he got yeah he got damaged and calloused but then he started to come back around he um I think Negan helped snap him out of that he reacted

[01:02:26] to Negan by wanting himself and everyone to be better more civilized as we talked about Democratic compassionate Michonne helped him with that too but Carl Carl's letter to him is all that he wrote

[01:02:41] as he was dying from a zombie bite is all about you know he says I wanted to kill Negan I wish I did maybe it would have been done um uh wait let me see but he says there's people savior still out

[01:02:58] there I don't think they'll surrender there are workers in their dad they're just regular people old people young people families you don't want them to die dad we're so close to starting

[01:03:07] everything over and we have friends now it's that bigger world he used to talk about the kingdom the hilltop there's got to be more places more people out there a chance for everything to change

[01:03:16] and keep changing everyone giving everyone the opportunity to have a life a real life if they won't end it you have to you have to give them a way out you have to find peace with Negan you

[01:03:25] have to find a way forward somehow you know on and on so um I think that also inspired and that's one way that they tried even though I don't like that Chandler Riggs left probably

[01:03:39] because of a contract thing they tried to make something out of his death and yeah I'm seeing it now maybe more than I ever had that that really was crucial in starting to bring back more back

[01:03:52] to his humanity yeah I agree with that we were we're hanging up the washing the other day and I'm still really pissed off that they killed Carl this kind of shit we talk about when we're doing

[01:04:02] household tasks and Peter just goes no you're not and I'm like yes I am what do you mean no I'm not he's like no you're not because if they hadn't you wouldn't have got Judith and you fucking love

[01:04:09] Judith and I'm like yeah I do love Judith could have had them both maybe could have had them both but Judith yeah no I think that's totally fair and the flaws are what make the man

[01:04:23] yeah I mean I don't that's one thing about The Walking Dead like I was thinking you know saying that Michonne's kind of egoless Rick too he's never in it just to have power for himself

[01:04:37] he's trying to protect the people that he loves unlike there's Negan who's very much has an ego Gregory Nicholas you know there's plenty of characters that do but but there's so many that don't Glenn Aaron Maggie even Carol probably Daryl Rick and Michonne and it's like too many

[01:05:03] almost you know I almost feel critical like why does this show have to have so many people who are just badasses and why do the fans want that so much of the time there's a part of me that

[01:05:13] feels like that but but it's also pretty cool too in a way but anyway with Rick he's got so many flaws that it makes me love him even more and be more interested to watch him his story yeah I mean

[01:05:26] we're about to in the rewatch we're about to see him be pretty terrible to Laurie for like the rest of their relationship after Shane dies like he's a oh that's right husband like I remember feeling

[01:05:38] for Laurie quite badly that she's like pregnant and terrified and he won't even fucking talk to her and I'm like oh oh that's like he has his reasons but I don't remember so well yeah we'll

[01:05:48] get to that but yeah there's behaviors saying stuff and things that's my other points are stuff and things um well I think this might carry on from one of the ones you said I've written that

[01:06:03] just a simple point Rick has an everyman arc I think that makes us ask what we would do and where we would go for the people that we care about like he starts off as a very I don't know I've

[01:06:15] been thinking a lot about um I don't play D&D but Peter does so I pick up D&D bios most of this and they have these like character charts of like are you lawful good lawful neutral lawful evil that

[01:06:28] kind of thing and I think Rick starts off very just lawful good but we see him go all over the place in his character and I think that's a really interesting place to be he starts out at

[01:06:39] this very basic good morality and then he's pushed his absolute limit of the things that you would or wouldn't do or would start to think were sensible or not sensible and I think he out of all the

[01:06:51] characters because we follow him right from the word go we follow his whole experience of that apocalypse makes you question yeah your own relationships and your own reactions to things and I think that's a really interesting narrative hook to have and he's a fantastic character for it

[01:07:08] yes I'm trying to think what's Negan's alignment chaotic evil maybe I mean that's like the worst one but he creates his he creates laws but he doesn't follow them himself this would be an

[01:07:25] amazing like off-season or listener call an episode actually do that yeah yeah it'll be fun have a segment yeah character alignments or they're like MBTIs and things like that MBTIs

[01:07:37] MBTIs yeah I think I'm just looking at a quick chart here I think it would be or maybe lawful evil because Negan has laws he has laws but he doesn't follow laws yeah so I don't know but

[01:07:51] anyway Rick yeah I agree with you he's all around the map of the alignments at times he doesn't embody every single one but definitely he switches around yeah I think that's fair

[01:08:04] well let's see uh he's a good father he cares so much about his family you know that scene where he's crying in his house when he first wakes up from the coma and then at the camp hugging him is

[01:08:16] I mean hugging them is so iconic and just always being there for Carl and guiding him and I think if Rick had to pick one person to protect above all others it was always Carl that's just the one

[01:08:28] that he cared about the most and that was clear to me and I think he's great in most close relationships I think he's a good partner to Michonne respectful gentle honest loving caring

[01:08:38] he's a good brother to Daryl you know showing him respect and calling him out when needed and depending on him and making him better and affirming him and everything and I just think

[01:08:54] it's so weird with him because he he's the person that you would be drawn to but you may end up dead if you spend too much time around him if he turned up in your community

[01:09:06] you would have concerns I think it's safe to say you'd have heard he's so emotionally compelling as a person you know just because he's respectful of the people that he cares about I think absolutely

[01:09:19] what else um I have yeah I'll have two more things I've got this one then next one um I've put relationships to Carl Judith but also found family um Rick embodies very much the

[01:09:32] you can be someone's people without being their blood relation or their parent or their child and it's interesting because at the start of his story his quest he is very much about his blood family about finding his wife and child and that relationship but by the end when

[01:09:51] he's talking about getting back to his family he means everyone he means everyone in the fold he means Daryl he means the people that they've collected along the way and I think that's such a

[01:10:00] fun hopeful message for the walking dead because it embraces all different kinds of family embraces different ways to be a parent and to be a sibling and to be a friend and to be a loved one and

[01:10:14] and a leader too and a leader yeah and I think caring for yeah yeah and I think Rick and Michonne are both at the heart of that but particularly Rick um who sets as a character sets the kind

[01:10:25] of rules and tone as as apparently as Andy Lincoln setting the tone for the groups that he works within um and opening up this idea of found family and taking on Judith you know I mean he was never

[01:10:37] going to leave her out in the cold was he but if raising another man's kid yeah like really took her on never questioned it never even said to Michonne until much later like she's not my kid

[01:10:49] but she is not only another man's kid but a man who had an affair with his wife yeah um but she is his kid and that's beautiful really beautiful I want to hear yeah did Judith ever I feel like

[01:11:04] there was one point where maybe she acknowledged Shane but I can't remember for sure if I'm just making that up in my head I don't know I don't know uh my last thing is that he's got inner strength

[01:11:16] and similar to Michonne eagles never of never avoids danger out of fear for himself doesn't even seem like it would be an option for him no he was afraid of Negan but I think only

[01:11:28] that he could would hurt other people that he cared about yeah after he almost chopped Carl's arm oh my god forced him to do that um I think about when he was trapped in the train car at

[01:11:41] the termites and saying they're screwing with the wrong people you know he he didn't he wasn't afraid he's just like fuck you guys yeah um so yeah I we've already kind of talked about this

[01:11:52] but yeah amazing my final point is dundun drumroll please uh his softer moments just like Michonne has her funny moments there are some moments with Rick that I think are just really lovely and

[01:12:05] when he's talking with Carl that episode where Carl kind of goes on a wild adventure with chocolate pudding because Rick is comatose on the sofa and he's he's just kind of very gentle with him about

[01:12:17] that and about him having eaten all the pudding and barfing um when he's winding Darryl up by playing country music in the car together and Darryl fucking hates it but he'll do it anyway

[01:12:28] and I think he gets some really nice soft moments with Glenn as well because Glenn is I think one of the things I'd forgotten when embarking upon the rewatch but I remembered but

[01:12:38] I didn't quite compute is just how much Rick owes his life to Glenn and owes everything that happens to him after Atlanta to Glenn and in that sense Negan's murder of Glenn is one of the most harrowing

[01:12:53] that could have happened to Rick because that's the one person who I don't know I imagine Rick always felt he owed a great debt to and he wasn't able to repay it and he lost his life so I think

[01:13:04] there are some really sweet moments with them and Glenn's just such a good person too so yeah they're very like there's a nice kind of symbiosis there of their kind of goodness and morality yeah I love that so yeah those soft moments always make me really love Rick

[01:13:21] absolutely yeah yeah you're right with Michonne even maybe more with Rick but it's to have someone who can be so fierce and also can just be so chill and emotionally engaging is super alluring yeah absolutely all right listener responses okay so Gigi Puthia says stuff and things

[01:13:45] iconic iconic Jack Shandle says his love for coral does love coral yeah on that note Mark Nichols says the fact he can turn Carl into a four syllable word Carl I hope I did that justice Andrea Hatfield Olmsted says his courage

[01:14:06] and determination to be a man with honor I love ricky dicky do da do da Santos S Sanchez says my favorite thing Alexandria Rick specifically the moment after he brawled with porch dick what classic black heart running emoji skull emoji zombie zombie zombie

[01:14:28] I wonder I don't know why this popped into my head but what it would be like if you and I did one of these lists with Negan I bet you we'd come away feeling a little differently about him in one

[01:14:37] way or another I'd probably get him I just get so mad after like two I'd be like oh I could find some good things to say about it maybe we could do that before season seven and then see where

[01:14:46] we get to like yeah or dead city Brad Holt says I love that Rick always tried to do what was right even when it blew up in his face that and his dedication to protecting his family at all costs

[01:14:59] Gloria Lateri-Hernand says his love for his family and chosen family his willingness to do anything to protect them and his confidence in himself confidence is very sexy he's a very confident guy he's spreading over whether he made the right decisions but usually that's just with him and

[01:15:15] Lori so no one else can see Lori's like I'm out Chandra Wright says his total badassery he's loyal and willing to examine his mistakes at the same time he has a quiet methodical determination that I'm guessing is going to help reunite him with his family I'm getting cautiously

[01:15:33] excited about this spin-off yeah Jacob Decker says besides giving the best performance and dialogue he leads you to fight his off kilter slant with a gun stance he's just the most badass

[01:15:45] also giving attitude to the people who hold them hostage or try and eat them he tells them I'm gonna kill you lol that's true he did it more than once he did it with Negan too

[01:15:56] Becky Fanner Anderson says the complexity of his character he's the perfect blend of hero and villain oh interesting he does what he has to do to survive and take care of the ones around him

[01:16:07] he's able to make the difficult choices but he had his own failures and struggles which makes him human and relatable plus he's pretty nice to look at too can't disagree with that

[01:16:19] Sam Lowe says he's loyal to those he considers family and which he opens up past blood relatives he's also able to adapt when needed no matter how hard that can be people can become so rigid

[01:16:29] in their thought patterns and he is able to shift it if he has to and he listens to those around him even if that can take time he is a leader I would follow for all of these reasons amazing

[01:16:40] I always thought early on I kept I always thought yeah I would totally follow him I would totally follow him and then after a while I'm like I don't know if I'd be following him right now

[01:16:49] when we get to that again Megan Dively-Limb says his cunning and tactical skills very underrated think of how he set the trap for the terminus leader at Gabriel's church and outsmarted slash outmaneuvered Negan at the end even going back to season two and three when

[01:17:04] he taught Shane to start using the knife instead of the gun I think that was the dropping Randall out in the middle of nowhere episode yeah using the fences using the fences strategically at the prison and taking the prison he was always watching the situation and thinking ahead

[01:17:19] yeah good call glad you wrote that absolutely Karen Cox-Munoz says I'm so excited for the ones who live I'm doing a rewatch with you JNL and I'm now ahead of you and almost through season three

[01:17:31] because I couldn't stop watching these first seasons are the reason we love Rick I think Gemma got it all right in her comments but for me it's his ability to be wrong about thangs and

[01:17:40] adjust he recognizes when he's going too dark and throughout the series always makes his way back to trying to be the good man he wants to be for his chosen family can't wait to hear your

[01:17:49] coverage of the new series oh thanks Karen Penny Lennox says the swagger Rick's confidence is as powerful a weapon as that python I think about him in that train car they're gonna feel pretty

[01:18:02] stupid when they find out find out what they're screwing with the wrong people this is why his people follow him even after he goes insane or makes a bad choice he makes them feel like they

[01:18:11] can do anything Alex Kruger says Rick is such an interesting and complex character above all else he is a family man both blood-related and found family he is compassionate and hopeful but he

[01:18:25] adapted so well to the new world in the ZA what always impressed me was his strength and toughness he wasn't as big as Tyrese or as hardened as Daryl but he knew he was never knocked down and then

[01:18:36] stayed there he didn't seek out being a leader in the beginning but he was one naturally he was he was adaptable and able to be talked to his goal was always to do what was right for the people

[01:18:46] that counted on him but he was also willing to accept that his decisions weren't always the right ones I asked my partner who got me into The Walking Dead how she would describe Rick and her

[01:18:55] response was simply sexy and honestly I can't argue with that either Alex your partner and you sound like you have a good relationship I love it it's interesting you mentioned his size because

[01:19:07] I think Andrew Lincoln he's not a small man but he's not big either he's one of those people though that seems bigger than he is you know when you meet him it's like oh he's actually

[01:19:17] smaller than I thought just like a normal-sized dude and uh yeah unlike um Tom Payne who played Jesus who's like an elf yeah he's such a little like cute little elf guy he's great uh I could

[01:19:31] definitely fill out a top 10 list for Jesus oh yeah Matthew Randall says he's confident but since the rewatch I've noticed a little bit of insecurity early on me too he allows people to

[01:19:42] look up to him and he puts on a brave face but internally he's pretty constantly second-guessing himself especially in season two he seeks counsel especially from Laurie early on and if she has

[01:19:52] faith in what he's doing then he lets that assuage his doubts he knows when things are rough and when a rictator is needed and takes on that role but he doesn't get attached to the power and is happy

[01:20:03] to re-invite in the opinions opinions of the group once they're more safe and settled so yeah especially early on he's a little bit insecure at times but he doesn't make it other people's

[01:20:12] problem he puts ego aside to accept help so that he can be as reliable as people need him to be he was never my favorite character but I think a lot of people myself included

[01:20:22] could learn a lot from Rick Grimes that's nice I love that Rinaldi says okay I'm going to list my top five speeches for Rick I think Rick's positive qualities outweigh the negatives to

[01:20:34] a large degree and Andrew Lincoln does a great job bringing these traits to life that's why Rick is my number three walking dead character I love when Rinaldi drops some hints about the list I

[01:20:44] know making you wonder what the other ones are but then doesn't say number one and two who would I guess I think Negan's his favorite for sure you reckon I think dog dog's my favorite we're going

[01:20:57] to do top five dog and be like when dog was a good boy when dog was a traitor Rinaldi's number one is Rick Tatership speech season two finale yeah this is not a democracy this is a Rick

[01:21:14] fucking Tatership that's I'm pretty sure that's a direct quote number two we are the walking dead speech minus Darrell's contribution season five three Rick's too far gone speech to the governor's

[01:21:25] army season four four Rick's no more kid stuff speech to Carl season two five I think that's in the barn yes I think yeah I think that's right five Rick's life over death speech for sparing

[01:21:38] the savior season eight worst speech is Rick's rock of the road speech to Ezekiel season seven my reaction to that speech yikes I'm excited to see Rick again and I'm confident he'll reunite

[01:21:49] with his children I feel like Rinaldi has an eidetic memory and could recite all these speeches to me I just have like a vague recollection of most of them sometimes I'm like huh care

[01:22:06] I remember yeah he did do a lot of speechifying and some were better than others but these all seem pretty good speechify yeah Danielle DeMint-Juice says he's loyal and courageous and competent no line is too far for people he cares about this is sometimes problematic

[01:22:22] but I still like it for the character he's determined and will always find a way to accomplish his goals even when they seem impossible he's adaptable like Randy explained I guess that's

[01:22:32] next I put these out of order through Shane he learned not to ignore a problem through Herschel he learned to see others points of view through the governor he learned how to go on the offensive

[01:22:44] through Gabriel he remembered how to be kind and appreciate people for who they are and what they have to offer through Andrea he learned how to annoy the fuck out of her no I'm just kidding I

[01:22:54] added that part in uh through Negan he learned how to retreat and lick his wounds while giving himself time to make a plan Carl and Sadiq taught him to be merciful Rick already knew how to

[01:23:06] sacrifice which was his final act before being whisked away I imagine all these experiences have come in handy dealing with the CRM he's also sexy as hell so there's always that that's a great

[01:23:19] take yeah I mean there's a thing about that he took on some of the bad characteristics of some of his nemesis's nemeses to over time and so I want to keep more of an eye on that as we continue

[01:23:33] the rewatch after the ones who live I love that yeah he's like cannibalizing the bits from them that he's like I mean in a way we all kind of do that from relationships don't we we all pick up

[01:23:44] the things that are good and but yeah I think that in particular is hopefully we learn but yeah there can be some remnants of things that we get from people that aren't so great sometimes and from

[01:23:56] Gareth he learned some excellent barbecuing techniques sorry Randy Stevenson says one thing I love is that he seems to take on the traits of the enemies he defeats like he's Nintendo's Mega Man Randy you read our minds the traits he takes on aren't always positive though after Shane

[01:24:15] he declares his rictatorship and starts putting his friends and family first see you made it sound good there Randy said it wasn't positive anyway I hear you I hear you from the governor

[01:24:25] Rick becomes more brutal when Rick comes up with his plan to deal with the saviors outpost he repeats a version of the governor's line kill them all which the governor said about Rick's group he

[01:24:34] also wants to employ a similar tactic when rescuing Beth my favorite is taking a page from the walkers and biting Joe the claimer's neck there are other examples but the point is I enjoy the that this

[01:24:46] shows Rick doesn't forget the past he's affected by it and uses those lessons for both good and bad apart from the one about covering yourself in zombie guts and I'm joking as a viewer it's great

[01:24:56] to have a character that embodies the history of the show in such an entertaining way I agree Randy well that was good timing thanks Randy yeah we didn't set that up promise Gemma Hall says

[01:25:09] everything he's a father a family man a true hero who fights for the people he loves he's a natural born leader who people look up to immediately yeah that is true he's kind and empathetic towards

[01:25:21] others I think it's a testament to Andrew Lincoln's acting how wonderfully he nailed Rick from the get-go I usually find the good guy on TV shows boring and one-dimensional like Jack from

[01:25:32] Lost Bill from True Blood etc but Rick has always got me straight in the heart and I think it's because he's so deeply multi-layered and a fighter he's not afraid to get his hands dirty and I think

[01:25:42] this starts properly with killing Joe from the claimers the only way he can then his absolute power moves at terminus and the destruction of Gareth and company he does then get cocky thinking

[01:25:53] he can take down whoever but I still think he's got the good intentions of his people in his mind you know what they say about the road to hell yeah he's not he's not afraid to show his

[01:26:03] vulnerability and faults he has human moments at time and times where he literally loses his mind his love for Judith and Carl are the backbone of the show as well as then later Michonne

[01:26:15] his final episode of The Walking Dead in season nine all he's thinking is I'm looking for my family he realizes he's had them all along that's who Rick is I really hope he can come home where

[01:26:25] he belongs love you Rick always I mean Gemma's one of the biggest Rick fans I know of all oh yeah Zedhead like if you say who's a who's a Rick fan she's the first one I think of no

[01:26:37] um that was great I love that I love that who've we got we've got Dina oh Dina this is a long one okay I will try and do it justice I will try okay Dina says the first

[01:26:49] thing that pops in my mind about Rick is the peculiar way he pronounces Carl's name my family wanted to name our brand new cat Carl just so we could call for him in Rick's accent I vetoed that

[01:26:59] and we named him Mortimer Brewster instead Mortimer that's amazing Mortimer um it went a bit there um like most of the main characters on The Walking Dead Rick's character arc is tantalizing

[01:27:14] TWD is my comfort show so I watch episodes out of order depending on my mood and I've been trying to focus more on Rick in preparation for the new series but the angel's wings keep distracting me so forgive these initial less than deep thoughts about Rick

[01:27:28] Carol and Darryl grow into their skins during these 12 years they may regress before moving forward again but I think their journeys are mostly linear whereas Rick's journey is a spiral that leads him right back to who he was at the start of the series but with enhanced superpowers

[01:27:41] for lack of a better term oh that's such a good description love that in the beginning he is honorable just a seeking kind maybe a little unsure in the end he is honorable just a seeking

[01:27:51] kind and very self-assured that's the enhanced superpower we all know that a major theme in The Walking Dead is that we get to come back from whatever dark place we find ourselves in Rick proves it and Gabriel who's become one of my favorite characters also proves it

[01:28:05] I've always likened Rick to King Arthur in the once and future king in that story all the tribes are fighting each other the philosophy of might is right prevails King Arthur spins this catchphrase

[01:28:16] into might for right and then creates a democratic civilization where he is more of a president than a king Rick is might for right at the start might is right through much of his journey and then might

[01:28:27] for right at the very end very roughly and I'm overlooking a lot here's what I mean season one good husband good father good cop season two I knew Rick had cop sense but I still thought he

[01:28:39] was a little naive until Andy Lincoln's acting in Nebraska showed us that Rick was very very savvy then of course he declares himself dictator at the end of the season that's our next episode

[01:28:49] Nebraska I'm so looking forward to it yes season three he goes a little insane and is still a struggling dictator until he realizes he's done a terrible thing sending Michonne to the governor and declares democracy again season four he knows that civilization is achievable and opens the prison

[01:29:05] doors heralding a just and kind world season five untrusting Rick is back understandably if some asshole had just tried to rape my kid I'd rip out his throat and gut him as well but he also turns

[01:29:16] into Shane they find Alexandria and he's hell bent on taking over if the residents don't bend to his will he also is a little creepy much like Shane stalking Laurie Rick stalks Jesse it's a little

[01:29:27] weird season six Rick's cockiness is a little out of control but here is Negan to humble him season seven doing whatever he has to do to appease Negan while preparing for war I know a lot

[01:29:38] of people got tired of the savior wars but I enjoyed these seasons lots of character character instincts and growth in there season eight my mercy prevails over my wrath Rick's might for right moment Carl's plea for peace overcomes Rick's need for vengeance Shane and his good moments

[01:29:54] Dale Herschel Laurie's ghost and Darrell all planted those seeds of a just society in his head but it was Carl's letter that reminds Nick of who Nick that reminds Rick of who he is at the core

[01:30:06] you have to make it right dad season nine King Arthur is back he's hell bent on uniting the tribes even if it means sacrificing his own life but never fear the fairy queen Jadis has whisked

[01:30:17] him off to the Isle of Avalon where he will rest until the world needs him once more that's my rusty take on Rick's arc and I'm eager to hear everyone else's views before the new series

[01:30:26] starts thank you Dina I love that as a medievalist in particular but King Arthur yes please very nice very nice thank you Dina okay we have one more message it's a call from our friend Robin

[01:30:40] hey y'all it's Robin um good to talk to you it's been a minute this is about the Rick podcast and I taught literature for a long time and I always think of Rick as a tragic hero

[01:30:52] and so you know I think that the fact that he is a tragic hero is what makes us love him and Lucy I know you're a literature person so if I get this wrong I had to dust off my notes I haven't taught

[01:31:03] in several years um you know let me know but he's a tragic hero he's uh noble he's virtuous he's brave he makes self-sacrifices he's intelligent he's charismatic he has his own set of beliefs and

[01:31:17] won't yield to anyone he goes on the hero's journey uh on an adventure with a supernatural element which of course is the you know zombie apocalypse he's got to be victorious in decisive

[01:31:31] crises and then um which you know there are many then goes to the abyss and many there are many examples of that in the whole show he loses Laurie he loses the prison um at the church

[01:31:47] after terminus when he bites out Joe's neck um the most important one I think is the circle with Negan where he loses Glenn and Abraham and almost loses um um Carl and you know he

[01:32:05] goes really to rock bottom there but then of course he comes home comes home sort of metaphorically transformed uh we see his atonement on the return and I think we see that in in the

[01:32:18] dream that he has um the day that he's dying when he speaks with Herschel and realizes that he had his family all along and then of course his ultimate atonement is um his sacrifice his self

[01:32:31] sacrifice on his death you know and a tragic hero always has a tragic flaw which of course with Rick we can see a lot is hubris he has a lot of hubris but that leads to his absolute fixation on

[01:32:46] protecting the people and so that hubris leads us to the things that make us love him it's it's both his flaw and his redeeming feature uh it and it's his flaw because it leads him to make some

[01:33:00] really bad decisions um an example is killing Negan's people in the night um you know that's that was not not really good but um you know I think that we see that and and all of the qualities

[01:33:13] of a tragic hero all of the the things that he goes through on the hero's journey and again even his tragic flaw are all the things that make us love him um not to mention the fact that he's also

[01:33:24] um you know incredibly handsome and incredibly just you know my favorite character I almost stopped watching the show uh when he left to be honest with you um but anyway uh I hope it's not

[01:33:37] too pedantic and obnoxious to talk about a tragic hero but um you know I I really got thinking about it when I thought about what would I say about Rick um and that that's what it is so um hopefully

[01:33:49] I'll get on track and I'll be able to talk with you more often and thank you for everything you do um the podcast right from the very beginning as I've said before has gotten me through some really

[01:33:58] really rough times and I consider you guys friends um thanks a lot I'll talk to you soon bye. Oh well it's no notes for me Robin that sounds amazing. Yeah thank you Robin.

[01:34:11] Yeah I hope you um it's great to hear from you and yeah I hope you get back on track with us for the ones who live and then to the rewatch and we hear more from you that'd be great.

[01:34:20] Yeah I always love Robin's calls. I love all our calls I love all the feedback we get it's great it's just such a nice community of people. Yeah except for um Fred otherwise no I'm just kidding I'm not I'm gonna take that out I was

[01:34:33] trying to think of a name that we that we didn't have we don't have Weisinger we do have a Fred Weiser he's gonna think it's him so we love him we love Fred we love Fred Weisinger there's like

[01:34:44] one little Fred who's never written in like I was gonna send a call next week and now I don't want it. Fred right dude we miss you. We want to hear from you. Directed at you. That's hilarious.

[01:35:23] All right we thought we'd do a quick catch-up on the events leading to The Walking Dead the ones who live I'm sure everyone at least knows the basic premise Rick disappeared years ago

[01:35:34] they did a time jump so it's been at least I think it's around eight years right because there's a six-year time jump and then maybe a couple more years in the series. Yeah RJ's like at least five? Oh yeah so maybe it's not quite that long but it's

[01:35:48] No but if she'd been pregnant for nine months like five or six and then we we cover a couple of years in the show I feel like So I think it's like seven or eight years.

[01:35:58] Yeah and Michonne is out looking for him so what happened to Rick well he was on horseback drawing a horde of Zeds away from one of their camps where they were trying to integrate these

[01:36:11] ex-saviors and they were building a bridge and the horse that Rick was on got spooked and bucked him off and he fell and was impaled on that rebar. Stupid fucking horse.

[01:36:23] Damn horses and he seemed like he was dying but he managed to lead the Zeds over the bridge thinking it would collapse from their weight and they'd be swept away in the river I think

[01:36:32] but the bridge did not collapse and if they had crossed they would have gone directly towards hilltops so he shot some dynamite that was on the bridge I think they I forget why they had

[01:36:44] they were building a bridge but then they decided they needed to destroy it so anyway he he shot the dynamite to blow up the Zeds seemingly sacrificing himself but he ended up unconscious

[01:36:55] and floating down the river and Jadis of the trash people who I think was going by her original name and then finds him and takes him aboard this helicopter to deliver him to her group the CRM.

[01:37:08] I remember that because we heard it was going to be Rick's last episode and I was just ready for him to die I wasn't ready but I was trying to be ready for him to die and then he gets taken off

[01:37:18] in a helicopter I'm like what? So what's the CRM? Well we've learned a lot about them from all the shows The Walking Dead, Fear the Walking Dead and most of all World Beyond. They are the

[01:37:31] CRM is the Civic Republic Military it's a military organization that's trying to rebuild what was lost in the zombie apocalypse and create a new world from what was left behind they are part

[01:37:43] of this thing called the Alliance of the Three which is a network of three large communities the Civic Republic, Portland and Omaha and I think all of these communities are actually bigger than the Commonwealth. The Civic Republic which I think is in Philadelphia is about 200,000 people

[01:38:02] and we haven't really seen much of that just maybe one a couple little scenes. The CRM is secretive and ruthless and they will kill anyone who tries to get in their way or expose them so it sounded

[01:38:13] all good up until this part they are actually pretty dark among other things they're trying to find a cure for the zombie virus so they experiment on people including killing people sometimes by deliberately causing them to get bitten just so they can study what happens when

[01:38:29] they turn and it's not all willing subjects it's many unwilling subjects. In World Beyond the CRM they decided to betray and destroy the Omaha group one of those three groups of the alliances because they thought that the Omaha group was too dependent on the CRM's resources and would

[01:38:48] never be self-sustaining and the CRM scientists predicted that the Omaha group would eventually fall to disease and famine and that would spread to the CRM and threaten their mission their survival anything that threatens their mission has to go. So on this special day called Monument

[01:39:02] Day which commemorates the start of the zombie apocalypse which is August something 2010 when most people in Omaha were outside and gathered together the CRM killed them all something like 100,000 people with a chlorine chemical compound gas that was supposed to prolong the time before

[01:39:19] their reanimation just so they could also get more research specimens. So that was like really dark. Super fucking dark I'd forgotten how dark that was I'm like. Yeah and I think then they were on their way to kill everyone in Portland too the other community

[01:39:35] and that's like the open thread of World Beyond that we will probably never see resolved unfortunately maybe they'll do a comic at some point or something. I think that's just because like they didn't like the free liberal way of life in Portland

[01:39:48] they're like you know what there's too many and do bookshops we're over it. That chlorine thing worked pretty good in Omaha why not just take care of those lefties. Yeah let's do it you know we'll get rid of the Pacific Northwest easy.

[01:40:00] And so the CRM is all about sacrificing for a future so like as we saw there was a character called Isabella in Fear the Walking Dead and the way she talked about it was like I'm doing this

[01:40:12] for people who will be alive after me and she didn't seem to care if she died and that sort of everyone in the CRM was infused with that so they're that's how they can be really ruthless

[01:40:22] because they're like this is about the children of the future not about us or something like that. So the CRM had formed an agreement with Jadis and her scavengers slash trash people where they would

[01:40:33] supply her and her group in exchange for people like prisoners that she would deliver to them and these prisoners were designated as either A or B's and we never knew for sure what that meant

[01:40:46] but I think we have a pretty good idea it's sort of up in the air but she told the CRM at first that Rick was an A but then she said she was wrong and that he was a B and later in World

[01:40:58] Beyond which Jadis was also a part of she said to the daughter of the woman who's second in command of the CRM I had someone special I had an A talking about Rick but I said he was a B so he

[01:41:10] wouldn't end up in your mother's lab I owed him that much so I think that meant that A's were experimented on and B's were conscripted into the CRM you know brought into the organization

[01:41:23] and I think we thought that A's maybe were more rebellious and so they were the ones that they knew they couldn't trust to work for them and be compliant and so they were experimented on

[01:41:35] bitten and then studied as they turned and stuff like that. Which kind of chimes with some of the stuff we've seen in Paris as well. How so? Darryl, well the experiments that they're doing

[01:41:47] I wonder if yeah yeah if it's related or just some similar impulse that these organizations have yeah you're right exactly but so Rick I think that means he's basically probably a slave or at least a

[01:42:01] prisoner of sorts and he has been for the past you know eight years we'll find out more specifics in the series other players well Jada's she in World Beyond she was an officer of the CRM and she was

[01:42:13] kind of climbing up the ranks by being ruthless and having a terrible haircut yeah but she was much better character in that show oh yeah she's cool in The Walking Dead and she'll also be in the

[01:42:22] one to live and in World Beyond there was a lot of talk about the CRM's leader Major General Beale who seems like the main guy behind their ruthless philosophies though we never saw him and he's

[01:42:35] going to be played by Terry O'Quinn in The Ones Who Live, Locked From Lost which I'm really excited which is awesome yeah and then last how Michonne came to be out looking for Rick in season 10

[01:42:47] episode 9 of The Walking Dead Michonne's final episode she went to Virgil's Island which is what do you call that place Bloodworth Island to get weapons to fight against the whispers and at some point Virgil shows Michonne a room full of scavenged gear and she sees Rick's boots

[01:43:06] there and she's like where did you get that and Virgil takes him to this beached military boat where he got that stuff and aboard she finds a cell phone etched with Rick's name and a drawing

[01:43:18] of her Michonne and Judith and some logbook that I forget exactly what it said but indicated that Rick might be alive somewhere near New Jersey maybe it was stops that that boat had taken or

[01:43:27] something so so she calls Judith on the radio and is like I'm not your mom anymore no I'm just by the way your real dad is Shane bye he said bye no um she tells him that she's gonna go look for

[01:43:43] Rick and then um sometime later we see her it's not clear how much later but we see her walking through a forest and she comes upon two people asking for help catching up to this huge like or

[01:43:55] phalanx of people an organized militia heading north maybe that's CRM we don't know and then in the Walking Dead series finale we see Michonne is still looking for Rick and we flash back to how

[01:44:08] Rick's things got on that boat he's at that island Virgil's Island Bloodworth Island and he seems to have escaped I guess he I think he has a CRM jacket on I don't know if he's on the island

[01:44:18] because he's near Philadelphia is he not we see the skyline okay oh oh okay so but he's near that boat yes that boat is there and because boats move around so that's why because boats they go

[01:44:32] away they go from place to place and so that's what it is so um he first he throws his boots and his things onto the boat and there's a CRM helicopter and they're like you know designee

[01:44:46] Grimes you must return with us or whatever and they recapture him so I think he escaped and maybe he threw his stuff on there just in hopes that someone would find it I wasn't totally clear on

[01:44:55] that unclear yeah yeah but anyway that's how it got there so that's all we know that he's a prisoner and that she she knows he's alive and she's out looking for him yeah that tracks I did read an

[01:45:11] article that said do I need to have watched world beyond to watch the ones who live and the verdict of the article was no but it helps a little bit okay I mean you would think if they're at all

[01:45:22] smart they will do their best to make this so that you don't have to have seen that because not a lot of people saw it yeah no I think there was us and that was it um I think we had like two

[01:45:35] listeners and us so four people hey I'm holding out for a Silas cameo I just want Silas to be there that's my it was a great especially second season and not about first season yeah um so and I I

[01:45:47] haven't been watching the trailers so I don't have any clues to talk about or anything about the series and it starts in a few days so let's just watch it that's what I said yeah let's just

[01:45:55] watch it and see what happens yeah so I did have a couple of quick news items um the guy there's a guy from Xfinity named Kwam I don't know if he just has one name or what but anyway he did an

[01:46:11] interview with Andrew Lincoln and Danai Gurira and I thought I'd play a few bits it's not spoiler at all just kind of fun to hear them together and get us in the mood so here it is

[01:46:20] Danai I want to throw the question to you first with your characters Michonne and Rick returning do you give us a quick preview of where the show is picking up at uh yes of course we left with

[01:46:29] Michonne as as Michonne left the uh Mothership show she had found some really clear evidence that he definitely did not die on that bridge which is of course what she's always believed

[01:46:39] so we we pick up at a time when you know we're picking up a lot of pieces but a pieces of course that she is now um searching high and low for for Rick y'all have been working working together

[01:46:52] for so many years how has your relationship evolved both professionally and personally it's deteriorating yeah it gets worse and worse it's a joy the reason why I'm here is because Danai's sister we I said do you think we should do this and she said my sister thinks

[01:47:10] we should do this she just said of course you have to finish the story you guys have to complete the narrative and it was just such a clear specific way of looking at it like yeah there's a narrative

[01:47:20] to complete and we'd always planned to but that really kind of grounded it I guess yeah it was and that was the that was the kicker and you know and I was fed up of people stopping me in

[01:47:29] the street and just going when are you coming back where have you gone and I think that those were the two sort of questions that we sort of started with and as Danai was saying you know

[01:47:38] at the beginning we had a lot of things to wrestle with time wise so we had to sort of wrangle those in our narrative as well as hopefully you know get these two you know characters together as

[01:47:50] quickly as possible and tell this big epic love story it's broken Danai I want to throw this question to you who's lasting longer you or Andrew? I think me yeah because she's got a bigger entourage

[01:48:06] I don't know I'm such a loner that is not true but I think it's because I he's just he's just too nice well you think I'm too nice to be so I get eaten straight away you'll try to talk the zombie out of being a zombie

[01:48:24] take the zombie to a therapy session like hey listen you don't have to do this I'm sure we can sort something out guys oh so Andrew I you so you're from London how do you think the Brits would fare compared to

[01:48:41] the Americans in a zombie apocalypse? They'd be toast we wouldn't do that well because we'd all be queuing up and just the infection would just run riot it would be a disaster what are y'all most

[01:48:56] excited about for fans that see in this new series? It's about the ride it's the ride they'll be on I think there's some what I what excites me is I think there's some really unexpected turns that

[01:49:06] it'll take for people where they'll think they're they're thinking one I'm already noticing they're thinking one thing and it's like that's there's a whole other thing so I just I'm excited to see

[01:49:15] people take the ride if that makes sense. Yeah I agree and well and also I think it's you know it's about completing something that we started 13 years ago you know it's a big show it's an important

[01:49:26] part of both of our lives and you know like the DNA of the old series yeah I want people to be moved thrilled scared and exalted you know and hopefully we can bring a bit of love and hope and justice

[01:49:41] um to the audience and you know six hours of zombie filled escapism. There you go oh my god they sound like they're having the most fun yeah yeah that makes me even more excited. I love it

[01:49:57] I love it. A couple other things so The Ones Who Live had a premiere at the Linwood Dunn Theater in Los Angeles recently I guess they played the first episode and the cast was there

[01:50:11] with Scott Gimple and Gimple said that he hopes to be able to reunite characters to reunite characters like Rick, Michonne, Daryl, Carol, Negan, and Maggie in a crossover. He said there's so many

[01:50:24] things with this universe that I plan and put together but I also know that God laughs and you have to pivot to something else. I absolutely have been working towards that and hoping towards that

[01:50:34] but we'll see what happens it might be a version of it that no one expects like a comic book I think that'd be cool they could do a movie or something that brings all that together.

[01:50:52] And last item here is more related to The Last of Us which is that Disney made the official announcement that Pedro Pascal aka Joel of The Last of Us will be Mr. Fantastic in the upcoming

[01:51:05] Fantastic Four movie which comes out July 2025. I was glad to have that confirmed they also announced Vanessa Kirby who was Princess Margaret in The Crown I don't know her but as Sue Storm, Joseph Quinn who is Eddie Munson in Stranger Things as Johnny Storm

[01:51:23] and as the Thing Eben Moss Bachrach who played Richie in The Bear. Oh I love that that's such a good cast. I kind of thought I was like oh I'm not going to be jazzed about this film but then I saw

[01:51:33] the cast and I was like that's cool. I think I mean it's unfortunate I've I always say this but that there have been like three middling Fantastic Four movies and that's what most people know about

[01:51:46] them because they're great comic book characters and they've not been done well by the theater and and I think that this I have a good feeling about this it's Matt Shackman directing and he did

[01:51:58] WandaVision and the poster they put out is very retro it's like a yeah 60s kind of 60s one which I love. I like that feel. The Fantastic Four are the first family they're known as the first family

[01:52:13] of the Marvel of Marvel Comics they were the first Marvel comic to come out back in I think 1961 and it's a great comic book. There's something else I was going to say about oh yeah there's

[01:52:26] superhero fatigue right now even me I'm kind of tired of most superhero movies but I'm looking forward to this one the Deadpool movie coming out in next month with Hugh Jackman in it and also

[01:52:41] Superman Legacy with James Gunn that's his first thing over at DC as director of the guy who did Guardians of the Galaxy those three movies as much as I'm tired of superhero movies I'm super

[01:52:53] jazzed about those and I hope they're all as good as I think they're going to be. I also saw that Catherine O'Hara has been cast in The Last of Us season two. Yeah oh yeah I forgot about that

[01:53:05] yeah that's cool. I'm excited about this. Yeah I think it's gonna be I mean she's known for being funny as fuck but I bet you it'll be a dramatic role that'll show off her dramatic chops. Oh yeah

[01:53:17] she'll be great. I love her. I love her yeah I think that would be wonderful. All right that is our show episode 564 thanks so much for listening everyone we had a week

[01:53:32] off there but it's great to get back and to get all hyped up for this series coming up. Next episode will be The Walking Dead The Ones Who Live season one episode one entitled

[01:53:44] Years which I think years is sort of like we know Rick's been away for years we're going to address it. How many how many? If you would like to write in or leave us a voice message about it you can

[01:53:59] find all our contact information at podcastica.com and while you're there please check out our other podcasts but just I mean this is the best one so yeah just listen to this one another one though

[01:54:11] is we recently combined all our Marvel shows that we had done a separate podcast into one Marvel TV cast so it has She-Hulk and Moon Knight and What If and Loki and most recently Echo is in

[01:54:24] there so I would check that out that's a lot of fun. Yeah and this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Julie McDonald who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Capassi

[01:54:36] so thank you to Julie she gets ad free early release episodes of this podcast. All right that is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Andy Fisher.