588: "Walk with Me" (TWD S3E3 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] The Walking Dead, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Only this time we won't be eating each other.

[00:01:11] Hey, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm the Governor. And you were going to say that. I don't know. I just heard it in my head right before you said it. This is The Cast of Us, Episode 588.

[00:01:26] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, Season 3, Episode 3, Walk with Me, which just makes me think of Twin Peaks. Fire, walk with me every time. Every time. Yeah, Twin Peaks.

[00:01:40] I was so into Twin Peaks until I realized that it was all just a bunch of stuff thrown out there. I mean, it's still cool in a way, but it was set up to make you think. It was kind of like Lost in that way.

[00:01:56] Anyway, it's not a Twin Peaks podcast. It is Walking Dead. I wanted to mention that I'm going to be in Scotland for the next two weeks, hanging out with Lucy, Peter, Karen and David. Oh, yeah, I remember.

[00:02:10] And we're going to be skipping next week and then we'll be recording on Season 3, Episode 4 in Scotland together the week after that. So it'll be two weeks until the next episode, just so you guys know. Yeah. And that episode is a laugh a minute.

[00:02:25] It's like super fun episode. Yeah, it's going to be such a blast. We're going to cry together. Oh, gosh. We, I remember when we were talking, you know, we've been having some Zoom meetings to talk about vacation plans with the four or the five of us.

[00:02:39] And I started talking to Lucy about our podcast schedule and Karen's all, you're going to be podcasting while we're over there? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, Karen, we're going to take a break off one week off. So it's a compromise. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:02:58] And I'll be bearing as well. I'll be doing the bear at some point. Right. You figure that out. It's tough. It is, it's a hard life. You're on vacation. But I'm looking forward to podcasting in the same place.

[00:03:10] But so it's The Walking Dead, Scene 3, Episode 3, Walk With Me. I forgot that we had said a while back we were going to read plot summaries in case people are listening to the rewatch but not going back and rewatching.

[00:03:21] Or I think a lot of people just kept on binging because they don't want to wait. Yeah. So I totally forgot about this promise to read plot summaries. I know, we did like two and then we did. So I have one here. Hopefully we'll keep going with this.

[00:03:34] But it says, this is just from Wikipedia, Andrea and Michonne are drawn to a helicopter crash where they're captured by Merle. He provides them shelter and medicine at Woodbury, a safe and well organized town of survivors helmed by the governor.

[00:03:48] Andrea is impressed and wants to stay while Michonne distrusts them. The governor tracks the helicopter to a remaining group of soldiers and ambushes them, stealing their weaponry and claiming their heads as trophies. It sounds like he just goes through and chops off all their heads.

[00:04:02] But yeah, it's not quite as good as that. But yeah, interesting. So that should at least give you guys an idea and bring back some memories of what this episode is all about if you didn't just watch it recently. How was it to watch it again? Yeah.

[00:04:19] You know, I'm not going to lie. I've not been the most jazzed about going back to the governor story. But I actually enjoyed this episode. Same. Exactly. I was like, oh, I feel like the governor gets overshadowed sometimes in our memories of the show.

[00:04:34] And yeah, I really like David Morrissey as an actor. So I actually was like, oh, yeah, OK, I can do this. This is fun. I got it. Yeah, I had exactly the same reaction. I mean, I wasn't like dreading it or anything, but I'm just like, oh, cool.

[00:04:47] The governor and the governor. I mean, if you read the comics, you know, the governor was this like mustache Danny Trejo looking guy who just chopped Rick's hand off in the first issue. He was like total evil mustache twirling.

[00:05:03] I mean, he did pretend to be good for the Woodburyans, but for us, he just seemed like this maniac. And he was he was a maniac. But not only was he overtly evil, but he was just such a psycho in the worst way.

[00:05:19] He's the worst villain in the comic for sure. Yeah, I think so. I really think so. In terms of the the spread of his evil and how much he does to people and yet there's no doubt about it. In the comics he's the worst. Yeah.

[00:05:35] So, I mean, he's a rapist and he's just awful. So, so I remember being a bit, I don't know, you kind of expect something along those lines. And it was much more subtle, the portrayal in the show.

[00:05:49] And I felt on one hand he seemed more like a real person and Dave Morsey is a good actor. And so it made more sense. But there was a part of me that's like, I didn't get quite the impact as the comic, you know?

[00:06:03] And so I think that might be one reason why I sort of I know a lot of people, he's their favorite villain. But for me, he just like you said, kind of fades into the background. So all that said, watching it now, I very much enjoyed it.

[00:06:17] And I also like the whole thing about how unlike the comic, the way this episode is structured is that you, especially if you don't know the comic and you kind of put aside that you're watching a TV show where a lot of there's a lot of bad people.

[00:06:33] He seems trustworthy. And just the fact that Michonne doesn't trust him, you sort of are looking for red flags. But they kind of draw us, the audience in, just like they're drawing Andrea in until this punchline at the end. So it's a great structure.

[00:06:50] I think there was, I would say a listener wrote it. I think it was actually IMDB trivia that said, you know, this season is about the shift from the villain or the threat being zombies to the threat being people.

[00:07:01] And I think if we'd gone straight into Woodbury with the kind of foaming at the mouth Danny Trejo governor, it would have felt like too quick of a shift.

[00:07:10] Whereas I think the kind of subtle shift that we see of things becoming more threatening and the governor becoming more heightened work in the context of the show, of easing us gently into it rather than being like, oh my God, OK, here's just a bad dude straight up first episode.

[00:07:27] Shane's more like that, I would say. Yeah. Shane's more, I mean, he was the threat in season two and he was pretty, you know, off his kilter a lot of the time. And Merle too. I mean, he's the subtle, I think the governor's the subtlest villain yet.

[00:07:45] Yeah, for sure. Far from it. Well, no, Gareth lets the mask slip pretty quickly. This far. This far. Yeah, this far. Oh, for sure. This far. Yes. Yeah. All right. So what's which first point? I guess we could talk about the governor. We've kind of started.

[00:08:00] Yeah, it was nice to see him back on the screens. I remember at the time laughing quite a bit that Rick and his big adversary were both being played by British actors putting on Southern American accents. But I think they both did good.

[00:08:16] I think they didn't appear in at least one thing together before this. I don't know. Undoubtedly. They're roughly the same kind of generation of actors. The thing I remember David Morrissey from was he appeared in a Christmas special of Doctor Who. And he was also in that.

[00:08:33] That's the only other thing I've ever seen him in. It was the one where he believed he was the doctor. And I think we questioned whether he was, but spoilers turned out he wasn't. Yeah. And Peter was late for our first date because he was watching that.

[00:08:46] And I skipped it. And then years later we were watching TV and I was like, I've never seen this episode. And Peter's like, I have. And I was like, oh, that's why you were late, you asshole. So yeah, that's how I remember him.

[00:08:59] The other thing that he was in that I recall was Blackpool, which was a kind of surreal musical drama on the BBC that David Tennant was also in. That was early noughties, late nineties. So, yeah, David Morrissey.

[00:09:14] Basically, if you live in Britain, you know who he is because he's in everything. So it's really funny to see him over the pond in this big this exactly the same kind of thing with Andrew Lincoln. It's like, oh, Zach. OK, but I liked it.

[00:09:26] I liked it a lot. I like that they do. There is ambiguity about The Governor. If you've not read the comics in this episode, like it could go either way at certain points.

[00:09:36] But when you're watching it as someone who's read the comic or someone who's rewatching the show, you see. Everything, I think the way Michonne sees it in this kind of sinister way.

[00:09:46] So when we see him helping people and we see, well, helping people, inverted commas, getting the guy out of the helicopter and taking him back to Woodbury, helping Michonne and Andrea.

[00:09:57] It kind of makes Andrea a little bit more forgivable at this stage because she isn't really being given a reason to doubt him. But we are as the audience. We know we know that he's bad news. I read The Governor series of books by J. Bonasinga. Bonansinga. Bonansinga.

[00:10:15] They're great. They're really great. And I wish I'd reread them before I watched this because I felt like they really informed my reading of The Governor's character even more. Well, they informed David Morse's too.

[00:10:26] He never read the comics or at least he maybe dipped in, but didn't he based his performance on those novels? I think that pays off. The bit that struck me the most is the final scene when he's sitting with his zombie vision.

[00:10:42] I think I recall that in the books, the concept of The Governor is that he's like this actually quite weak willed man who becomes unhinged and violent and reactive. And I think one of the reasons he has all those heads is because he is scared of them.

[00:10:59] It's like staring into the fear and trying to harness that fear to make himself monstrous. And I was watching the way David Morrissey played that moment at the end and there is almost a disgust there, a disgust and an unease.

[00:11:13] But he's kind of forcing himself to look at them and really stare at them. And it's so dark and so creepy and such a good reveal. Great visual. Great visual. And yeah, I just loved it.

[00:11:23] I loved the way that he came across in this first episode and that moment with the army camp where he's so friendly and so bumbling. And then all of a sudden they're waving his white flag literally. Yeah, just come up in his shabby little car.

[00:11:36] Well, it's not a shabby little car. It's not that. It's not a tank or anything. I wonder if they wouldn't let the governor drive a Hyundai. They were like, no, we won't have it driven by the bad guys. And yeah, everyone started shooting and that's it.

[00:11:50] It's cover blown. We know that he is just a bad dude. And then he outright lies to the people who he's leading. Not to draw any parallels with modern politics, but is the governor the worst leader? Who's to say? So, yeah, I just I don't know.

[00:12:05] I enjoyed spending time with him. I don't know that I have much more productive to say about him other than it's a good performance. It continues to hold up and I enjoyed coming back to the layers of it, particularly after, you know.

[00:12:18] One of the things we liked about season 11, I think, was that Pamela as a villain is much more like the governor without the mental unbalance. Like Pamela is like a bad politician who makes shitty decisions and is selfish. But she's not. She's not a cartoon cannibal.

[00:12:38] Yeah, and I think this is the start of that cycle that we kind of go all the way around to get back to this point. And it's nice to be at the beginning of it again and see where that starts.

[00:12:48] I also am like 90 percent sure that they took some of Lance Warrensby's wardrobe from the governor's. Like, I can see Lance wearing some of those gilets, some casual. He has that quilted vest that looks fitted in it. I always liked that. Yeah. Good fashion choices from the governor.

[00:13:07] So, yeah, there we go. I'm not going to say I'm good for the governor, but. No, but. He's alright. I enjoyed watching it again, too. And trying to imagine how I would feel if I was in Andrea's place, you know, and whether

[00:13:23] I would fall for all of this. Oh, I would. I'd be like antibiotics, beer, booze. Yeah. And just. Well, I'm going to go through like my first point is looking for red flags. So because Michonne doesn't trust it. Right.

[00:13:36] And and so I'm like, well, what do we what are the things that we can do to get her to And so I'm like, well, what do we what do they have to go on? And.

[00:13:49] So the way he's introduced, they want us to question whether he's doing something great. And so, yeah, I just want to I think it's more interesting to look at it from Andrea's perspective rather than from the perspective of knowing that he's an evil character because

[00:14:03] you read the comics or even just when you're watching The Walking Dead the first time, let's say, you know, any of us who didn't read the comic and you're watching for the first time, you're automatically going to suspect anyone new.

[00:14:17] And when you have Michonne there clearly being suspicious, you're gonna be like, yeah, this guy's probably no good. But I want to say, no, what if I was Andrea? I don't know.

[00:14:29] I'm on a TV show, you know, so I don't know that this that, you know, bad things are always going to happen every week. So anyway, the first stuff, the governor knifes this guy in the head who's been cut in half

[00:14:42] and Michonne and Andrea are like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Funnily enough, their first red flag is actually not a red flag. Yeah, it's not. They don't know. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know that that that everyone turns.

[00:15:00] But I was a little confused by that because Andrea said we watched you drive neither. We watched you drive knives into the skulls of two dead men. But one of those guys wasn't dead. He was flailing around. Oh, yeah. So I don't know.

[00:15:15] He was said, oh, she didn't know they were. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I guess she thought they'd know. Yeah. I know. Anyway, the idea is that they thought he killed he knifed a dead man for no reason, but it was because the zombies came back.

[00:15:30] So no, nothing like you said, that's not a red flag. Shouldn't be. So then Andrea and Michonne are brought to the holding area and their question and their wounds treated. And that reminded me of the Commonwealth, you know, when our people got held and it's

[00:15:46] not clear whether they're in a bad situation or not. And it does make sense for any new group like this, any community to be careful about who they take in to vet them a bit first.

[00:15:59] And the governor says they're being cared for and even that they can leave, that they're only under guard to protect his people because they don't know. We don't know you, you know. And then he says, we don't open the gates past dusk. It draws too much attention.

[00:16:14] That was suspicious to me. You know, like, really? You can't just slip us out. Why do you care about drawing attention? I guess you could say when it's darker, it's more dangerous because you can't see.

[00:16:26] But there could be truth to it that they don't want to draw attention at night. And even though he could make an exception, I think you could also be thinking, well, he wants to encourage them to spend some time there to recuperate maybe because he's a

[00:16:42] kind person or more importantly, maybe taking a liking to the place. He's hoping they'll take a liking to the place and stay because he's trying to rebuild civilization, which is also I mean, it's not cool to lie to somebody to try to manipulate them.

[00:16:56] But if it's not evil, necessarily, you know, yeah, like I'm just trying to think of plausible reasons for all this stuff. And that's very plausible to me. So he offers them a night's sleep and says they can leave in the morning with ammo and

[00:17:09] supplies and even a vehicle, which seems like a pretty big deal. So he seems generous and kind so far. And there's people around that seem happy there. And to respect him, that woman that shows them around seems to respect everything.

[00:17:24] We don't see what would happen if Michonne and Andrea actually tried to leave. But I don't even know for sure. Would the governor stop them? Would it be a big problem to him if not everyone decides to stay? I don't know. We don't know.

[00:17:40] I just keep thinking about the Hotel California. I'm just like, you can check in anytime you like. Yeah. Relieve. I'm just like probably. Yeah, because I think Michonne does leave and doesn't he like send people out to try to kill her or I forget. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:55] He doesn't want anyone to know they're there. Yeah. And that's that's Shane logic, you know, like where under Shane logic, the governor should kill anyone who wants to leave so they don't go get their group and come back and attack.

[00:18:08] So if you were standing up for Shane to kill Randall, then you should be standing up for the governor to kill Andrea and Michonne if they want to leave. That's my take. I don't know if people are standing up for him to kill Andrea. Not Michonne, but Andrea.

[00:18:22] But Michonne is the one that wants to leave. So then the second red flag for me is and Andrea and Michonne don't see this, but Milton seems intimidated when he contradicts the governor. Milton's describing Michonne pets and says they become docile in a sense.

[00:18:39] And the governor goes, so lurkers. And he goes, mm, docile. And the governor gives him a look and he goes, or lurkers, you know, whatever you like. I think the biggest like I don't suppose Andrea sees it, but one of the biggest red flags

[00:18:50] is how coward Merle is. Yeah, that's like Merle is like, but to me, yeah, I mean, I even think that that is exactly what it seems to be, which is not that Merle knows what a bad guy the governor is. So he's afraid.

[00:19:09] I think it's more like Merle's been given some purpose and some authority and he feels good about that and he's starting to respect himself. So he doesn't want to lose the respect of the governor.

[00:19:19] You know, I think that's the psychological reasoning behind why Merle is cowed by it, because he actually appreciates the situation there. I don't think he's feeling like, oh, I'm trapped here because this guy's a psycho. Yeah, I could be wrong. I don't remember all the details.

[00:19:33] I don't think it's so much that he thinks it's like a, but he'll have seen what he does. And he's aware that that could turn around on him. It's true. But I still think he, if he, if he didn't care about being feeling important in the

[00:19:45] governor's organization, he would just get out of there. You know, I don't think he's feeling like scared of the governor and that's why he's staying. I could be wrong, but that's, that's my take on it. Andrea seemed disapproving that the governor's people call him the governor, you know?

[00:20:01] And he says, oh yeah, sometimes nicknames stick or whatever. But I'm like, well, maybe you got elected. I don't know. That doesn't seem that bad to me. If he runs this place, he's the governor. Yeah.

[00:20:13] I didn't really see that as a big red flag or anything in and of itself. I do know now that I know more about him, which I'll talk about later, but just where we are right now. So he gives them this room for the night.

[00:20:26] He says to Michonne, I know you feel better with your sword, more secure, but you're safe here. I thought it was good that he sort of keyed in to her and tried to address her concern. Michonne gives him a dirty look.

[00:20:38] I could totally understand Michonne being suspicious too, but in my opinion, everything the governor's done so far makes sense for a good person who's built a community, except that he won't let him go right now. He's trying to keep them there.

[00:20:51] We learned he set a strict curfew and that could be a red flag, but it's also could be about control in the name of security. I think it does make sense to have more control in times of emergency, but then

[00:21:03] people in control have to give up control when it's possible. And often they don't like the CRM that didn't want to give civilian control of the civic republic back to the civilians. You know, or we see that a lot in real life where the militaries of countries

[00:21:17] take over and don't give control back. Yeah. This wounded guy tells the governor about where he came from, where it got overrun and that they got jammed up on the highway. And he took the helicopter up to the scout and crashed.

[00:21:33] And he asks if his guy survived and the governor shakes his head. And then the governor wants to know where his people are so he can rescue them and bring them back to Woodbury. That seems plausible. He's trying to rebuild civilization.

[00:21:47] He's trying to build, build out his community. So that seems okay. At breakfast, the Andrea asks, the Andrea, Andrea, the Andrea asks him how he expects Woodbury to hold off a herd. If a herd comes true, what's your secret? And he goes really big walls.

[00:22:04] And then she said, well, the other place had walls and we know how that turned out. And he just says, I guess we do. So it seems like there's kind of some mysterious and possibly nefarious secret we're not learning here, but I don't remember if there actually is.

[00:22:17] What is the secret? I don't, I don't know if there's some secret. I think he's just like, well, we have guns all around these walls. Yeah, I think so. So I don't know. It seemed like they were hinting at something. Then.

[00:22:31] So Andrea is starting to fall for him, not just, I mean, she's really starting to buy into all of this, which I would be too, but there's heat between them. Like he looks at her a little too long when she says what he says, we will

[00:22:42] rise again. Only this time we won't be eating each other. And I'm thinking she's like, can we just a little, I don't know. She's got the horn. She's got the horn for the governor already. Which is, I get it. I get it. Like at this point.

[00:22:56] I don't blame her. Just miss showed in her two packs. I think it's cool. I mean, he seems like this handsome guy who's like calm and centered and commanding and has built up this community. And so putting the comic aside, he comes off very trustable and impressive

[00:23:12] to me. And I would definitely stay for at least a while if I was them, but a little bit more. So this is my long one, by the way. But at the end of breakfast, Michonne demands the weapons back and the

[00:23:23] governor says, okay, you can take your meals to go, but you should take time to relax and get your strength back. And maybe you'll like what you see. And we didn't see Michonne's response to that because the camera cut away.

[00:23:33] But it's, I think it's because she's deferring to Andrea because they're talking about it. And now Andrea is arguing, Hey, we should stick around for a day or two. And, and I think, I think it totally makes sense for her.

[00:23:43] I don't think she's dumb at all for, for wanting to do that at this point. So then the governor goes out to where this guy told him his people were, and we see all these military guys, like you mentioned, that he waves his

[00:23:55] white flag and then he murders all of them. That's a red flag a little bit. I'd say that. Yeah. But for a red flag there. Yeah. But, but the show and Andrea don't see this, but that's where we're like, okay, he's a psycho.

[00:24:08] Like if you didn't read the comic and you weren't thinking he's probably bad because I'm watching a TV show. You're like, okay, he's a bad guy. And then, um, then when he goes back home and there was a woman in his bed. Right. I forgot about that.

[00:24:21] I totally forgot about that and I don't know who she is, but anyway, then he's drinking whiskey in front of his, uh, aquarium wall, zombie heads. And that's yeah, they don't have Netflix, so they got to make do. Um, and so I wonder how much this subscription is.

[00:24:35] I'm sorry. I don't know how much subscription is, but, uh, uh, that was like, okay. Not only is he just ruthless murderer, but he's there's something psycho going on in his head, which was so much fun.

[00:24:49] And then I loved ending on that because, um, then you're like, oh, wow, how deep does this go? How bad is it? Um, so that's a great way to end. You're like, okay. Yeah. And so, so we're still getting to know Michonne at this point and,

[00:25:04] and we're getting to know her in the context of not trusting this guy who seems maybe fine. So she comes off to some anyway as a bit paranoid, but it turns out she's just a really good judge of character. Yeah. I have to say two things.

[00:25:22] One is watching Michonne like suspiciously eat scrambled eggs is such a mood. I love it. And the other is the music cues for the governor are really smart. Like there's some really nice kind of just generic walking dead music, but he has this kind of unsettling string.

[00:25:40] It just picks out a little bit. I love it. They're really trying to stoke that suspicion. I didn't even catch that. That's cool. I really liked it once you've heard it, you'll like hear it more. But yeah, no, it's great. It's really fantastic.

[00:25:57] Yeah, we both, I mean, we just both said we would at this point. I mean, I would, I think I would, would I be suspicious? I don't know if I'd be suspicious, but I imagine I would just be like, Oh my God, thank God there's some civilization left.

[00:26:11] Look, they've got their shit together and they want me to stay. I'm definitely going to stick around here at least for a while and see how it is. That's especially like Andrew's real sick. Like she's got a really, really bad flu. I would be like, yeah.

[00:26:25] Hook me up to those antibiotics in the hot shower. I will take my eggs over easy and I will be having some tea, please. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm nowhere near discerning enough to survive in the zombie apocalypse. I'd be like, sure.

[00:26:39] It did make me wonder what the Commonwealth would like at this point. Like there's something Commonwealth-esque about Woodbury that I'm just like, I wonder. But the Commonwealth was already a big community, so they didn't build up to this. But yeah,

[00:26:56] what kind of shape it was in at this point. It's funny. I hadn't thought a lot about the visual parallels between Woodbury and the Commonwealth, but it's been interesting watching this episode and just being like, Oh yeah,

[00:27:10] there are some similarities here and it would have been interesting to see Rick react to that. And I guess Michonne react to that because they would have had very bad memories of Woodbury and how that impacted their decisions, you know? In fact,

[00:27:24] that's something that comes up in the comics with Governor Pamela Milton is Rick's like, I need another governor. It's like a big red flag for him. Yeah. I mean, I love the Commonwealth story in the show,

[00:27:38] but one thing it's really missing that what happened in the comics was what you just said, both Rick's and Michonne being there made it more interesting in the comics. Cause I don't know if we even get Maggie there really, like she's around,

[00:27:51] but we never see her in the Commonwealth per se cause she would be the only other person who'd been in both. I guess Darryl, but he only really goes in as anyway. Yes. I'm tangenting here. Darryl's really the one. It makes sense at this point.

[00:28:06] I have a whole point on that compares some things about the Commonwealth. It makes sense for us to be talking about the Commonwealth cause there's some similarities, you know, the return of civilization idea. But anyway,

[00:28:16] Darryl's really the only like OG person that we get to see in the Commonwealth and it's really striking because he just becomes this working father. He becomes like a non deadbeat deadbeat dad. Like he's just like, these kids aren't even mine. I love them, but they're not mine.

[00:28:32] All right. Off to the nine to five. I'm good to go into that if you want, because we've kind of started talking about the Commonwealth already. So if you want, I mean my main thing is just, yeah,

[00:28:44] it's interesting to have this kind of circular moment between the two and see how the same things that make the Commonwealth a comfortable place, like in the Commonwealth, it's ice cream. But as we find out, I think in a couple of episodes time in the, in Woodbury,

[00:28:57] it's like a freezer so you can have a cold beer sort of thing. It's the human comforts and what the governor says to Andrea isn't necessarily wrong about giving people something to live for and giving them a place that

[00:29:10] gives them comfort and makes them feel seen and gives them a sense of purpose. Like that's all true. He says, so she's, this is the discussion they have over breakfast, which I guess is one of my points, which falls on from what you're saying.

[00:29:21] Milton is really bad at reading the room, but the governor I think is better at engaging with the people there and he and Andrea are, it's the really big walls conversation. But he goes on to say it's about getting back to who we were. And she says,

[00:29:34] it looks like you're sitting pretty at the end of the world because I guess you would be a bit pissed off if you've spent seven months roughing it and there's these people living in relative comfort. And the governor says, we're the seed now that winter has passed,

[00:29:45] it's time to harvest. And I thought that was interesting because one of the episodes is called seed. I think it was last week. It was called seed. He talks about allowing people to rise again only this time we won't be eating each other. And he can't,

[00:29:58] Andrea kind of raises her cup to him to like a better future, but he can't really raise his cup back because he gets a knock at the door. And I thought that was really interesting. Like he's not really looking towards a better future. He's looking towards survival.

[00:30:10] I'm now wondering if the reason that episode is called seed is because one of these scenes was supposed to be in it or something or introduces the idea. So that was interesting and it got me thinking about Woodbury in relation to

[00:30:20] other societies that we see and how it amps up these differences of like Andrea and Michonne, even though they've spent so long together. Andrea feels like she doesn't know Michonne very well. Whereas the governor is kind of opening. I mean, he's still holding some things back,

[00:30:35] but he's not really looking at the future. He's still holding some things back, but it's like being in Woodbury exacerbates these tensions between them that have maybe been brewing over the seven months. So it's just an interesting character study and interesting little psych

[00:30:50] experiment of what happens when you get back to safety after clinging only to each other and your two pets for the last seven months. Yeah. Now they have time. It sort of feels like, and I still don't totally buy into this, but the same,

[00:31:06] a similar dynamic to Lori and Rick where they spent all this time just out being nomadic and haven't had time to deal with their relationship issues. And now they can finally rest for a minute. And that's when it comes up similar to Andrea and Michonne where she's,

[00:31:22] they get to the city, they can relax for a minute and Andrew's like, you know, you never talk and I don't even know you. Yeah. Actually, I don't know you. I don't know her. So yeah, let's, let's go Commonwealth. Tell me, tell me your thoughts. Well,

[00:31:38] return to civilization. So, you know, it's maybe not super easy to remember. Well, maybe it is, I don't know. But at this point in the show, it was something to see all these former trappings of civilization that we hadn't seen before in the show, except in flashbacks,

[00:31:57] you know, like it was, it was a big deal. First, off I remember even just this helicopter scene stood out because we weren't used to, we saw helicopters far off in the distance, but we didn't see people operating tech like this and talking to radios, you know? Well,

[00:32:13] Rick talking to Morgan, notwithstanding her trying to talk to Morgan, talking to himself. It seems like army guys, I guess, but maybe it's still meant to be the U S military, not some offshoot. I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting kind of hear that feeling.

[00:32:29] Same with the bigger storyline. Now that we know more about the CRM and things like that. So yeah, interesting. Be interesting to know what happened to the military. Did they all just get cut off from one another and form these groups like this or what?

[00:32:44] So they are in this holding room and actually the vetting process was a lot gentler than at the Commonwealth because for too long he walks them right out to the middle of town. Welcome to Woodbury. And it looks like main street in some idyllic little town,

[00:33:02] well kept and everything that's Sonoy in Georgia, by the way, that that's like the main street. It might even be called main street. I'm not sure. It's a sleepy little town in Georgia and that street ended up with some walking dead centered shop selling merch and stuff.

[00:33:19] I mean, is that where Nick and Norman's is? Yes. Nick and Norman's. Is there Greg Nicotero and Norman Reese's restaurant? I ate there once. Pretty good. And it really was the first time I went there. It was very sleepy,

[00:33:33] but the second time a few years later it was bustling because of walking dead. So they really brought a lot of economic activity to the town. I bet you it's sleepier now. Yeah, I was going to say, I wonder what's happening there today. Tours and stuff.

[00:33:47] I'm sure some of that still going on, you know, for sure. I mean, I used to walk by Cheers every day when I was in Boston and there would still be people snapping pictures 10, 15 years after the show was over. When I was in Dubrovnik,

[00:34:02] there was still a lot of Game of Thrones stuff going on there. So yeah, I think it's still, it still handles. Uh huh. So the governor shows them this room with the bed made up and he's like, not the four seasons, but there's a hot shower.

[00:34:13] And Andrew is like, holy fuck. Yeah. This is awesome. Marry me. There's food there and fresh air. There's food there and fresh clothes. And he's like, I hope this works. Then they get scrambled eggs and coffee. Uh, so yeah, just like it must be amazing to them. Um,

[00:34:30] I guess we had a little bit of a hit of that when they got to the CDC, come to think of it, they had a hot shower and some wine. That was what? Eight months ago. Yeah, right. Right. Eight months without it. Uh,

[00:34:44] so we've seen a lot of these kinds of return to civilization things. Alexandria had that impact. Um, the kingdom and Hilltop to degree, uh, the campus colony even more in world beyond if you watch that. And then of course the Commonwealth with ice cream and shops and everything.

[00:34:59] And then the biggest community, the civic Republic and the ones who live. But at this point it felt like a little small miracle. And so when we got to the Commonwealth on in the show, I think some of the criticism was,

[00:35:10] we've already seen this kind of plot with Woodbury and the governor. And I argued and I said, I argued and I still would argue that that's right. There are commonalities, but there's enough differences to make it more of a progression of story than a repetition. Uh,

[00:35:28] and I think the size and scale of the Commonwealth opened it up to new themes that to explore. So there's only 73 people in Woodbury and there's 50,000 people in the Commonwealth. It's funny how 73 seems so much at this point.

[00:35:42] And then when you think about the scope of the Commonwealth and the scope of the Commonwealth, and I guess later the CRM, yeah, it doesn't seem like that much at all. It's nothing. Um, the main difference to with the Commonwealth aside from being much bigger

[00:35:56] and more advanced is the focus was on class differences and inequality and disparity of wealth that can come with bigger societies. Basically the return to capitalism and how that can sort of disadvantage some people and things like that, that I'd say with Woodbury, it's more,

[00:36:15] there is a parallel to society, but it's more about how, uh, you have to have this security force in order to preserve this lifestyle. So the com, the commonalities is, you know, we've gotten organized to a point where people can specialize.

[00:36:32] Not everyone has to be a fighter so you can live more comfortably and go back to some of the old ways of civilization. Kids can go to school. And so I feel like with Woodbury, if I remember right, I remember thinking a lot about how that, um,

[00:36:49] corresponded to regular society where in order to keep this way of life, where we can all feel safe enough to not have to be fighters and we can do science and art and everything.

[00:36:59] You have to have an army and the army has to do things that aren't so nice sometimes. And sometimes there are things that the citizens don't even approve of, but a lot of people don't even want to know what happens outside there, outside the walls.

[00:37:11] As long as we get to keep our way of life, do whatever you have to do. Right. And so that's kind of the way it is with Woodbury people. Just the only ones who know what the governor's really like are his mercenary cohort cohorts there. Yeah, absolutely. Gosh,

[00:37:27] there's so much there. Isn't there between the two of them? Yeah, there's a lot similar, but I feel like they're different enough. Plus the Commonwealth has Lance. So there's that. Let's fucking talk about Lance. Yeah. Well, I mean, I do know,

[00:37:41] I remember Peter and I having discussions when we were watching the Commonwealth arc about whether or not, because we felt there were some parallels between Lance and the governor, but there was like, there was an earnestness to the people of the Commonwealth that it's more like

[00:37:54] the people of Alexandria in some ways. Like there's a naivety there. Because there isn't that class at least that we see yet. They all just seem like, like Alexandria. Yeah. Exactly. And so that is weird. I think somewhere in that Venn diagram is,

[00:38:06] is the Commonwealth is Woodbury and is Alexandria. There's these sort of three different things that are all kind of circling something, but the Commonwealth, because of sheer numbers, I think an infrastructure comes the closest to being functional, but in doing so it integrates this class system that's fucked.

[00:38:20] So it's like, it's like, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a class system that's fucked. So yeah, it's really hard to kind of, I don't know,

[00:38:36] get your way around that. It's it's a funny one. Right. And somehow Ezekiel ended up having this Utopian society that's perfect. But we don't see the detailed workings of that because it's impossible. Yeah, exactly. I don't know if it's possible, but that's what it seems like.

[00:38:51] We just don't know. You feel I think there's a sense that even before Rick's group come, the governor is losing his grip a little bit. He's losing control of the situation. his tactics seem to be just beating people and beating them into submission through killing them.

[00:39:07] And yeah, I don't think it was sustainable, whereas the naivety of Alexandria and the Commonwealth seemed to carry them even further. MGNK Well, I mean, like you said, when the governor…he has the right idea about a lot of things.

[00:39:21] What were you saying that he had a good point about? Something about… TRANSITION People needing a purpose. MGNK Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of what the governor is doing is good, but at its core it comes from this dark place.

[00:39:41] And so do a lot of other bad things too. So some of it's good, but he just isn't a good person. So that bad stuff is going to seep into the good stuff eventually, if that makes any sense. TANIA Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. Yeah, it's fun.

[00:40:01] I don't know. I'm glad to be back in Woodbury for a bit. It feels like going back to basics, but in a nice way. MGNK Yeah. Yeah. What else? TANIA All right, what have I got? Milton. I love Milton. I don't know how creepy Milton is.

[00:40:15] And not meaning to be. He doesn't mean to be. He's just very into his thing. MGNK But we don't know that at this point. We think he could be a sadist as far as we know, right? TANIA Yeah.

[00:40:28] He actually turns out to be one of the sweeter people that Andrea meets in Woodbury. He is amazing. I love it. I love that he's doing these little experiments. There's a couple of things that they kind of pepper into this conversation between the

[00:40:41] governor and Milton in the lab that they don't really come back to. Talking about lurkers, because that's this idea that there's different types of zombies. Is that a Last of Us thing? There are different types. MGNK Yeah, yes. I mean, there's clickers and there's roam runners.

[00:41:01] God, I forgot. There's bloaters. There's different types physically who act different, but I don't know about like the same physical type, but have different personality characteristics. I think once you've gotten to a certain stage, they all kind of act the same.

[00:41:19] But then like, so the ones that are more freshly infected, they just kind of run around and moan and attack people. But then when they become clickers, they can't see and they just start. They're tougher, you know, stuff like that.

[00:41:32] TANIA So I wondered a little if this was the show dabbling in that kind of idea that there would be different kinds. And that's where the kind of lurkers docile thing comes in. MGNK Well, in the comic, they call them roamers and lurkers, if you remember.

[00:41:46] From what I understood, there were just some who like to roam around and some who like to lurk in closets and things like that. But it could be right. Maybe they're at different stages of zombie hood. TANIA That makes it sound so lame.

[00:41:56] It's like, I'm just lurking in my closet. It's fine. You can leave me alone. They talk a little about Michonne's pets. So they talk about how she's been using them as a repellent and how smart that is, you know, camouflage.

[00:42:09] So the scientist says repellent and the governor says camouflage. So two different ways of thinking there. You walk with the biters, you think you're a biter. The governor kind of asks, I think, an audience surrogate question of, but aren't they starving?

[00:42:23] And he's like, if they are starving, they just do it slower than we do. So kind of getting past the idea in universe that actually the zombies would just starve and die out within a couple of years. MGNK Which is impossible because you need energy

[00:42:35] to move and they can't just be moving for years without zombies. And Milton also says zombies lose interest in eating when they cannot eat. So that's quite, that's something that again, they don't really come back to is this idea

[00:42:47] of them understanding that they can't eat and losing interest in it. But I had forgotten about that or I don't know if I ever really paid much attention to him saying that, but it was, I found that the most interesting when he was talking about

[00:42:59] the pets because it totally goes along with their behavior. Michonne has chopped off their jaws and they're not like trying to gnaw on her or anything. They just don't try anymore. Yeah, they've kind of given up.

[00:43:10] And they talk a little bit in abstract terms about whether or not they're trying to impose logic on the chaos. I think that's a very human impulse to try and impose logic on chaos and understand scientifically what's going on. And we'll see that more as Milton goes on.

[00:43:24] I'd forgotten he has that teapot that like you press and the tea comes out the bottom of the teapot. I've always fancied one of those. Milton and Merle are obviously very different. I'd forgotten that they hated each other. Milton especially hates Merle.

[00:43:39] Yeah, it's like they're vying for the governor slash dad to like one of them the best. So it's like they're so different. Yeah. Milton's telling on Merle for like smoking in the lab and like the dog is eating my homework already and Merle's like you fucking nerd.

[00:43:54] He doesn't say that, but you know, he's probably thinking it. And then governor says to Milton keep poking the bear and you'll finally get pod. So there's a little bit of tension going on there.

[00:44:04] And they finish this conversation in the lab by saying, you know, Milton wants to talk to Andrea Michon about how they survived because Merle is a hammer. And do you really feel a hammer is the right tool for that job?

[00:44:17] And I think he's, you know, he's got the measure of Merle, but it's clear that the governor does in fact want a hammer for quite a few of the things that he wants to do. Yeah.

[00:44:26] And I also wonder, I don't know, Merle might have been okay for that job. It would have been interesting to see how that would have gone. But the conversation Milton had with him was great too. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, nice to have Milton back. Yes. Yeah.

[00:44:42] I love Milton as a character. I like the idea of studying the zombies. I liked how he came off, like you said, creepy because to me it reminded me of a character out of a George Romero movie. They're just creepy characters in George Romero movies sometimes.

[00:44:59] And I think Dallas Roberts, the actor played him so well, like this awkward, nerdy, eager and yet kind of creepy kid almost. Did he ever come to Walker Stalkers? He was invited and he wanted to come, but only if he could not charge for autographs because

[00:45:19] I guess he didn't feel right about that. But I think he or his agent still wanted a fee and we're like, well, that kind of comes out of the autograph stuff. So I don't think it's going to work out.

[00:45:30] So he never ended up coming, which was a bummer. But I did do an interview with him and it's one of my favorite interviews I did on this podcast. I think it's episode 101. So if you guys go back and listen to that, I think you'll enjoy it.

[00:45:43] Oh, brilliant. So yeah, I have a point on Milton. So on the radio, the governor's talking to Milton. He says, bring in a homework assignment for you. So open the lab and Milton says, do tell. And I think that was just bringing in Michonne's pets to study. Right?

[00:46:01] And yeah, we already talked about what they got out of that. When he's questioning Andrea and Michonne at breakfast, he says to Andrea, do you believe they remember the person they once were? Andrew says, I don't think about it.

[00:46:13] Governor says Milton believes there might be a trace of the person they were still trapped inside. Milton says like an echo. So when we covered this the first time, I was more focused on really being interested

[00:46:26] in these ideas because ever since the pilot episode, when Morgan's zombie wife came back to the house and tried to turn the doorknob, I just kind of thought it was interesting the idea that there was some kind of memory there still like in Dawn of the Dead, Romero's

[00:46:44] classic one where they all go to the mall out of instinct. So I wasn't really, I don't think wondering, okay, but why is this in the story right now? And now we know it's because the governor wants to study the zombies because he's hoping

[00:47:02] to bring his zombie daughter, Penny back. That's what this is all about, right? That's why he's got Milton doing all this stuff. Yeah. He's got an agenda. Yeah. That's what it's all about. That's what the governor's all about as far as I'm concerned is Penny.

[00:47:19] So the story with Milton kind of laid to rest, and in my opinion, retcons, the idea that there was any memory or humanity left in the Zeds. I think Kirkman might've wanted it that way. I thought I read that. I'm not sure if that's true or why.

[00:47:34] My guess would be then it would just seem too awful to be killing so many zombies over the course of this series if we thought they still had some humanity left in them, but I don't know, but they did start off that way.

[00:47:46] I think Darabont liked the idea because that's the way it was with Morgan's wife. So Milton comes off awkward, a little creepy. In hindsight, he's one of the nicest guys on the show probably, but I really think,

[00:48:03] I don't know, my guess is at this time you were supposed to wonder if he was a creepy mad scientist type or something. He's a scientist. He's obsessed with the mechanics of the zombies to the point where he's insensitive about the

[00:48:21] fact that they could have been loved ones. He's talking to Andrea about it, surely it must've crossed your mind that they might have some of that left. And Andrea said, oh, one time, yeah, right before it tried to bite me.

[00:48:35] And I knew right away she was talking about her sister. Then he questions Michonne about her two pets and she clearly just by the look on her face is like, I don't want to talk about this.

[00:48:46] And we learned later in season four that those were her boyfriend and his friend. Yeah. It's so sad. Yeah. It's really sad. But Milton, Governor has to be like, okay, Milton, that's enough. Yeah.

[00:49:05] One other sort of notable thing about him is the governor says, I need you here for the science stuff and also your tea. And then later Milton asks Andrea and Michonne has the tea. And I remember people, listeners thought there's something with the tea.

[00:49:26] You know, he's just like this tea. And I think I asked him about that in the interview. I want to go back and listen now, but I think it ended up being nothing in the tea.

[00:49:37] But I would bet that people still think there was something with the tea. Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess that's about all I had on Milton, but I do like that character a lot. Yeah.

[00:49:51] He has a really sweet moment coming up with Herschel in one of the episodes they're in together. And I always thought that really stuck out for me. He's like little nerds together. He asked him if he could see his fake leg or something.

[00:50:05] And Herschel said, wouldn't you at least like to buy me a dinner first? That's so funny. Oh, it's so fun. I guess our other big personality in this episode is Merle. Yeah. Merle's back. Was this a surprise at the time or had it been spoiled?

[00:50:25] Hadn't it that Rooker was coming back? Yeah, I didn't know when, but we knew it was going to be back this season, I think. It's a neat way to bring him back. And that moment where… My voice burst. Oh, so good. And Andrea just really…

[00:50:37] I mean, when you're like throwing up with the flu in a forest at your lowest ever ebb, who do you not want to turn up behind you? Oh yeah, Merle. Merle. She's like, oh god. That totally reminded me of back in season one too.

[00:50:50] Just that look on her face. Just like what an absolute creep. It's…there's this nice reveal as well of his cool arm when he's like talking to Michonne and Andrea and the Zed is getting closer and closer and then he's just like… And kills it.

[00:51:09] But obviously he's a little bit vulnerable with Andrea because he is worried about Darryl and he wants to know where Darryl is. And you see that that is his big, big, big motivation in everything he does in this episode and in the coming ones.

[00:51:25] It's about finding Darryl and getting back to Darryl and figuring out if he is, you know, alive, still thriving and so on and so forth. So it was interesting to see him. He antagonizes both of them. He calls Andrea blondie.

[00:51:39] But he is genuine with her when she says that Amy died. He's…he's sorry about that. He says Amy was a sweet kid. And Andrea also explains that they did try to come back for Merle. That Darryl wanted to go back and that they did.

[00:51:54] He says he's always been the sweet one, my baby brother. So yeah, I don't know. You can see that it's really bothering him where Darryl is and there is a love there. It's a messed up, dysfunctional, brotherly relationship. But… But who knows?

[00:52:07] Maybe that's the only person Merle's ever connected with or definitely the only living person that he still feels connected with. Well, you get the feeling Merle raised Darryl. Like you get the feeling that their parents weren't around.

[00:52:21] So there is this thing with older siblings and younger siblings where you have this responsibility. We also see Andrea kind of lists the deaths that have happened, which kind of reminds us of season one and two, the seven or eight months since they've been separated from

[00:52:35] the farm team. And she says to Merle she knows what it feels like to get left behind. And Merle sort of looks at his hand and is like, yeah, OK, maybe not the same though. It's cool to hear all just to hear all those names. Yeah.

[00:52:47] Jackie, Sophia, Amy. Yeah. And Merle is antagonizing Michonne almost from the word go, you know, talking about Andrea to her and just being, I don't know, there's just there's a real tension between Merle and Michonne that's only going to amp up in the coming episodes.

[00:53:02] I mean, if Michonne doesn't like the vibe of the governor, she's got to not like Merle's vibe. If you hate the governor, wait till you meet Merle. Come back, Philip. All is forgiven. Yeah, I think so having Merle back in the in the mix is really interesting.

[00:53:21] And I think, yeah, that for me was a red flag is if you were seeing him how to the governor, at least in the sense of like the governor must be powerful. He must be somebody who commands respect in a way that somebody like Merle responds to.

[00:53:34] And knowing that Rick didn't quite manage that in the time he was there, I think that leaves you as a reader, think a reader as a viewer thinking what's going on here? Like what's what's the dynamic?

[00:53:47] It's just nice to see him and to have him be the link between Andrea and their Atlanta group and the Woodbury scene. I don't, you know, I wouldn't hang out with Merle personally, but he's entertaining when he's on the screen. Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:01] I think Rooker has a great screen presence. And that's one reason why I was happy to see Merle back. I felt a little critical in the same way I felt critical of Daryl, where I feel like the show soften their characters.

[00:54:17] And so that, you know, we could stand hanging out with them for a while. But with Merle, I would say my I think this is actually probably what they had in mind for his character.

[00:54:31] But the way I would explain that is when we saw him up on the roof using the N word and just being like threatening to throw people pointing his gun at people for no reason and waving his arms around. He was high on speed, I think, or something.

[00:54:48] He was. Yeah, he was. It was math or something like that. Right. That's what it was. Yeah. And so which is speed, I think. And so I think, you know, I think Merle is an asshole. But when you're on meth, it really amplifies that.

[00:55:06] And so now he's less of that because he's presumably sober. Plus, he's been you know, he almost died. He almost bled out. He told Andrea he thought about shooting himself and then the governor's people saved him.

[00:55:21] So that might be another reason why he's kind of beholden to them. I mean, I agree with you. I think he knows what kind of a guy the governor is, but there's all kinds of stuff going on here. There were two moments I really enjoyed visually.

[00:55:33] And one is the how about hug for your old pal Merle? I think that's such an iconic moment. And also when Andrea is in the back of the car, kind of getting in and out of consciousness

[00:55:43] and she looks up and Merle kind of puts his finger to his lips like, I'm like, oh, that's iconic. It's very creepy and unsettling because she's just seen the body hanging from the tree out the window. And yeah, it's brilliant. Really cool. Yeah, it was good.

[00:55:59] Yeah, they really know how to make it cinematic. So a few other random things. I always think Rooker kind of has this old woman voice, especially when you hear him and don't see him. He's like, yeah, he does a girl bigger than yours. Is that what you said?

[00:56:19] Your grandmother? No, it's just iconic platonic ideal of grandma. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. When he said that he was bleeding out and he considered killing himself, I kind of wondered if the writer stuck that in there to make a little connection between him and

[00:56:37] Andrea because she considered killing herself. Say, you know, focusing in on Daryl. That's the first thing he asks about is interesting because it just shows that he cares and he wants to be back with Daryl. He says he was always been the sweet one, my baby brother.

[00:56:56] I think by this time, Daryl had evolved into a sweet guy. I don't know if that was the writer's intentions from the start, but this makes it feel like that's how he always was. So it's a nice bit of just sort of making rounding out his character.

[00:57:12] Um, okay. I'm going to go into my next point, which is the governor's purpose is true purpose. Okay. So you might wonder why does the governor have this guy studying the zombies? And I think on the surface, it would make sense.

[00:57:31] He would want to know more about them just because they killed all the humans except for, you know, 0.02% or whatever it is. And so why not study them and learn better how to deal with them? And even what he learns about Michonne's pets is more about, Oh, interesting.

[00:57:47] If you cut off their jaws, they don't try to bite you anymore. But then again, if you can get close enough to cut off zombie jaws, you might as well just stifle them in the head.

[00:57:55] But, um, but that's why the CRM studies them because they want to know how to neutralize them, you know? Um, but as I said, for the governor, it ends up being because he wants to bring his zombie daughter back.

[00:58:06] And that's why there's a focus on whether there's any humanity left still there, you know, an echo of humanity or whatever. And I think the governor is a narcissist where it's all about him and this whole setup of

[00:58:24] Woodbury and the scientists and everything he's doing is they're just objects to meet his needs. And his need is to create this idyllic world for his zombie daughter and try to bring her back into it.

[00:58:39] And, um, I think it's really fascinating that this whole, well, it's not that big, but it's kind of a big deal to have this community that's basically just there because of his own, um, psychology or, you know, his own narcissism.

[00:58:59] And I think a lot of world leaders are like this, where it's scary to think that, for example, sometimes thousands of people end up dying just because a leader has a bruised ego like Putin, you know, look what he's doing.

[00:59:12] I feel like that's all about him, you know? And so knowing what we know about the governor, you know, at the beginning I was thinking, oh yeah, I would totally trust him.

[00:59:22] But knowing what kind of a guy he is, he's just, and then what, so let's see, he says he's not sitting pretty. He wants to bring back civilization. And so that's, that's like a secondary purpose to bring back civilization.

[00:59:34] But I still think that's in service of Penny to create this world that she can be happy and safe. And because once Michonne kills zombie Penny, I don't think the governor gives a shit about any of that anymore. He just wants revenge.

[00:59:46] That's like his new purpose at that point. That's what I remember anyway. I'll be curious to see when we go back through if that's true, but that's what I remember. But so in order to serve that secondary purpose of building out civilization, I guess that's

[00:59:58] why he cares whether Andrea and Michonne stay because he's trying to build a civilization for Penny to live in. Right? I don't think his ego could cope with people not wanting to stay someone rejecting what he's made.

[01:00:13] And I think it is about protecting it as well as about making sure that other people can't come and destroy it. Yeah. Because that brings me to the end where he murders all these guys that were part of it.

[01:00:24] Because I was like, okay, he's trying to bring Michonne and Andrea in. But then there's more guys that he says he's going to bring in and he kills them. And I'm like, why not bring them into he needs enforcers? You know, he's got these mercenaries around him.

[01:00:41] And so I mean, he take he he kills them all. He takes that one guy's gun first thing and bats him in the head with it to finish him off tells his other guys pick up the rest of the weapons. And let's see what Uncle Sam brought us.

[01:00:55] I like how nonchalant he is about it. And he has this sort of a right. He has an attitude not like an evil guy, but like, this is what we do boys, you know, or

[01:01:04] I know it seems rough, but we're on the side of the good here, even though he's not. But I just working through why would you bring Andrea and Michonne in but kill these guys and take their stuff if it's about rebuilding civilization?

[01:01:18] And I think it's because it's also about control that he wants to have absolute control and authority. And he thinks they might have been a threat to that, I guess, because they're an organized, powerful group or, you know, organized group, I guess. I don't know.

[01:01:32] They know how to fight. And so he wants to be able to keep going with his experiments and his community the way he wants to be. And so I guess if anything will threaten that, then his goal is to protect all of that.

[01:01:50] And so I think he's sort of like I was thinking about this today, like Herschel and Shane combined because Herschel thought his zombie family could be cured. And the governor wants his zombie daughter to be cured. Shane would eliminate all threats to protect those he cared about.

[01:02:07] So the governor is like both of them together. Yeah, he really is. I mean, do you think that's right about why he killed those guys and yet wanted or maybe he just only wants women?

[01:02:23] I mean, I think it's also the guys are a much bigger threat like Andrea and Michonne can't take the place down themselves, whereas the army guys could if they find it. Yeah, exactly. So no, I think you're. But it seemed odd to me. I think there's logic there.

[01:02:39] There's a part of me that's like, they just want him to do something psycho for a good punchline to the end of this episode, you know, because it didn't totally make sense. It wasn't totally clear. But that's the reason I would come up with just about not.

[01:02:51] Yeah, that would be my thinking as well. Yeah, I think that's that's it. And he's, you know, massively underestimating Michonne there. But, you know, and then we'll come back to hurt him in the eye. Yeah, literally, literally that. Anything else?

[01:03:10] Um, Peter asked me if we find out that the soldiers are from Fort Benning. I don't know if we specifically do. Not that I remember. Not that I remember. We were saying it's a shame in a way you could have almost retconned CRM into this and CRM

[01:03:26] the helicopter. But it's good the way it is. It makes sense. It makes sense. I liked the moments of tenderness between Michonne and Andrea. Michonne clearly does care about Andrea. She's rubbing her back while she's throwing up and she kills their her pets to try and

[01:03:39] keep them safe. And she's just great. And that one moment where Andrea says, it must have been hard for you or whatever, and she's to kill them. And she's like, it was easier than you'd think. And she's almost going to cry there. That was an emotional little moment.

[01:03:56] That's lovely. We see Martinez for the first time. He's gonna come back. He's with the governor, I think, right till the bitter end. Is he not? I think so. I think, was he there at the very beginning too in that other group that he was in? I forget.

[01:04:12] I think so. So yeah, Martinez spot. I think that's it for me, actually. I have one more point. Experience with actors. So David Morsey, always great, super nice guy. Very self-possessed but friendly. And am I right in thinking he would do a lot of stuff with Scott Wilson?

[01:04:39] Yeah. Like they would tend to be on panels together? They were friendly. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he was just a good guy. He had good vibes. I think he had to do some acting to pretend to be evil and intimidating.

[01:04:56] What I think about David Morsey is he had to do some acting. Yeah. At some point he said he wasn't super familiar with the comics, but that he based his portrayal on J. Bonin Singh's Walking Dead books.

[01:05:11] And those are The Rise of the Governor, The Road to Woodbury and The Fall of the Governor. And those are pretty good. He's very descriptive. He's so good at describing like zombie viscera and all that kind of stuff.

[01:05:22] But I can't remember for sure, but I think I'm the one who told J. Bonin Singh of that. I think I told him, you know, David Morsey said he based those on your books. And he was like, what?

[01:05:34] And so, because J is, I know I'm effusive about these guys. J is the fucking nicest guy ever. He's so cool. I've been to dinner with him several times. He's just really fun to be around, kind of crazy and super kind.

[01:05:50] And me and him and Melissa Hutchison used to hang out a lot. But one time I set it up so that J. Bonin Singh could be the moderator for David Morsey, since David Morsey based his characters off of his books.

[01:06:06] And J told me afterwards that in the backstage, they were kind of just shooting the shit. And they said something about, what are we going to do? Let's do something crazy. Why don't we just go out naked? Like David, or J said that as a joke.

[01:06:26] And David said, I'll do it. And J said he believed that he actually would have. I don't know if I was supposed to tell that, but oh well. I mean, they didn't come out, so it's fine. It's fine. No, they did. Yeah, no, they came out naked.

[01:06:44] And everybody loved it. I'm sure they would have loved it. I'm sure. Lori Holden, I did several panels with her. And I remember before one of them, I found out she has been an advocate for victims of human trafficking. So I asked her about that.

[01:07:01] And she talked about in 2014, she was actually part of this undercover mission to combat human trafficking. And I looked it up because I didn't remember the details. It says, Holden and other volunteers posed as wealthy Americans hosting a fake bachelor party to lure sex traffickers.

[01:07:20] Her role was to keep the young girls who were victims of trafficking occupied and comfortable while the undercover team gathered evidence to arrest the traffickers. This operation led to the rescue of 55 sex slaves, some as young as 12. And she was involved in that. Lori Holden. Yeah, superhero. Gosh.

[01:07:42] And you could tell she was really proud of that, and rightly so. Yeah, you would be. I have more stories about her, but maybe I'll save more until later. Milton, great guy. As I mentioned, we wanted him at WSC, but he wanted Walker Stucker, but he only wanted

[01:07:58] to do it if he didn't have to charge for autographs and that didn't work out. But I would go back if you're at all interested listeners and check out episode 101 with my interview with him. It's pretty good. Amazing. I forget, have I talked much about my Rooker experiences?

[01:08:16] I think I kind of did, right? I think so. Yeah, yeah. He's just crazy. You never knew what to expect on panels. Half the time he would just not answer any questions and he would grab the mic and go

[01:08:29] out into the audience and just start playing with people, you know, what do you want to ask me? And then they'd start asking and he'd just give some one word answer and go to the next guy and then he would flirt with the women. Oh man.

[01:08:40] The big enforcer guy, black guy, Schumpert is Travis Love, who's just a really nice guy. Kind of quiet in my experience, but nice. And Martinez is Jose Pablo Cantillo, who's equally nice, more energetic and lively and fun. Good guys. Aww.

[01:09:06] It's so fun how you got to meet some of the not as prominent characters and get to know them better that way. Yeah. One of my favorites was the one with the bow and arrow from Hilltop. Do you remember her name? Oh, not Denise. Diane.

[01:09:25] Diane, yeah, which makes sense. Diana. So we were sitting in the green room one time. I should probably save this story for when she's in an episode, but whatever. And I told her I had this podcast and like, you should come on sometime.

[01:09:38] And she's like, oh yeah, I'd love to. And then somehow we came to the idea that she would come on and pretend to be just super gruff and give one word answers and not want to be there at all and just do like five or

[01:09:52] 10 minutes of that and then be like, oh, we're just joking. And we were cracking ourselves up. Excellent. I think you should do it. Well, it's too late now. I'm giving away the game. Aww. All right. My notes.

[01:10:05] I talked about this before, but since we're now seeing Michonne's pets for the first time, you know, well, relatively, I guess they were in the last two episodes. Anyway, I think they're kind of dumb because if you're walking around with two zombies on

[01:10:24] chains that are a foot or two away from you, it doesn't make any sense that zombies wouldn't eat you. And yet if you're walking near other zombies without the chains, then they will eat you. But the chains make it so they won't.

[01:10:39] That doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, they've got no lower jaw. So? Well, they can't bite you. No, I mean, so she walks around with those so that she can blend in with the other zombies and they won't attack her. Oh, the other zombies, not them.

[01:10:57] And it works, but it just doesn't make any sense to me that it would. I know you're like, it's zombies. It doesn't have to make sense. But even within the logic of the zombies that we know so far, it just doesn't, you know,

[01:11:08] when they cover themselves with guts, that makes more sense because maybe smell has something to do with it. But just walking around with two on chains versus just walking near to say, then it would be the same thing compared to the other zombies.

[01:11:20] So anyway, that's what I've always thought. But it looks cool and maybe that's worth it. The guy in the helicopter accident, we get an overhead shot. He's been completely sliced in half and you see his guts hanging out and everything. And I was like, ew. It's so gross.

[01:11:35] It's so great. I love it. I don't know if any other show before The Walking Dead got this gory, especially considering this is something having nothing to do with zombies and yet there's still that gore.

[01:11:52] I feel like for better or for worse, The Walking Dead was a pioneer in this kind of gore. I think, for example, before The Walking Dead, medical shows were way less gory. But if you watch a medical show now, it can get just like you're watching The Walking

[01:12:05] Dead, you know? Yeah. I did think this was particularly gross. Seeing him like halved on the ground like that. I mean, I loved it, but it was particularly gross. And if you watch like MASH back in the 70s, you'll see them with blood on their hands,

[01:12:20] but they don't show the guts and stuff. But now if MASH was produced now, I think because of The Walking Dead, they would show more of that. Yeah. Helicopters freak me out a little bit. Have you ever been in one?

[01:12:35] Yeah, I was in one in Hawaii flying over Volcanoes National Park and it didn't have doors and we were strapped in, but it would bank left and right. So you just kind of look down and see the ground and it's freaky and it's super loud.

[01:12:52] And I mean, like in my view, if you're in a plane and the engine goes out, you can at least glide down. But in a helicopter, you're fucked. Yeah, I just wouldn't get in one personally. I'm that much of a wimp.

[01:13:04] I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not getting in one. I don't know if I would go in it again. Once was enough for me. Who knows? They're probably perfectly safe, but it scared me.

[01:13:13] Um, I wasn't clear at first why this copter was damaged and I wondered if the governor shot it down or something. But later this guy Wells, this wounded guy said his helicopter took a beating in the riot.

[01:13:27] So I think that just meant when the zombies attacked somehow it damaged the helicopter or some riot, whatever. Yeah. I think we should note that the Wood Barians call the zombies biters. The governor said it and other Wood Barians called him that too.

[01:13:43] And then on my last note, totally unrelated, but I was thinking about how Lori's more sympathetic this season. And I was thinking maybe from a storytelling perspective, the writers are doing that so that next week is going to feel more dramatic when she dies.

[01:14:00] You know, if you didn't like her when she died, it might be more like when Andrea died. You know, so I don't know. Maybe. All right. So IMDB wise, Merle's prosthetic arm is made of fiberglass painted to look like aged metal.

[01:14:19] I think that probably makes sense because it would be a lot lighter than having an actual metal arm. Okay. Trivia question for you. Do you know who the woman in the picture of the governor, his wife and daughter is? He used to know that, but I forgot.

[01:14:33] It's Denise Huth, one of the producers. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is the first episode where we hear Michonne's name. So if you didn't read the comics, you might not know who this was. I didn't know that.

[01:14:45] There's one here that just says Michael Rooker considers Merle's entire body to be a weapon. I'm like, sure. In an interview with Kevin Smith, Greg Nicotero revealed that one of the floating heads in the governor's fish tanks was a recreation of Ben Gardner's head and jaws.

[01:15:00] Ben's head famously popped out of a hole in his fishing boat after he was attacked by the great white shark. The 24 prop heads secured to the bottom of the tanks were hollowed out, allowing them to float.

[01:15:11] The water was coloured a sickly yellow by adding coffee grounds, tea and dye. This is the first episode where we never see Rick in the group. And at exactly 42.42, there is a literal foreshadowing of the governor's eventual eye

[01:15:25] patch as he notifies the residents of Woodbury about the fate of the military convoy. There is a shadow that is perfectly cast across his left eye. After the governor ambushes the army camp when the sole survivor is running away, the governor aims his rifle without a rear sight.

[01:15:42] This would effectively make aiming useless as aiming without a scope takes two points of reference with front and rear sights. I don't understand what any of those words mean, but if you like guns... It's hard to aim. Yeah, basically that couldn't happen.

[01:15:55] In terms of the timeline, we left the prison on two last... We left the prison last episode on day 296. This is day 297. So Andrew and Michonne are found on day 297 and on day 298, once they've spent the night, we see the soldier massacre and the breakfast conversation.

[01:16:14] So those are my bits. Nice. Yeah, you mentioned how we didn't see any of the other characters and I was pretty aware of that and it was nice. It's nice. I like sometimes taking a break and going to some other part of the story.

[01:16:28] I know some people don't like that at all, but I do. I think it's kind of... No, I think it's effective. Cool to get something different. But now I'm looking forward to Rick facing off against the governor for sure. Absolutely.

[01:16:42] And only on The Walking Dead would you give up your morals for scrambled eggs? Only on The Walking Dead does Netflix and chill take on a completely different resonance in Woodbury. Now, yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a Walking Dead cast news update.

[01:17:31] I thought it was worth noting that right now there's a few different Walking Dead actors starring in things. We've mentioned some of them as we mentioned last time you can hear Andrew Lincoln as psychologist, inventor and digital game world maker Dr. Mark Tibern in the podcast A Better

[01:17:47] Paradise. Norman Reedus is all bearded up as biker Funny Sonny in the crime drama The Bike Riders in theaters now. Got decent reviews. I'm kind of curious to watch that. Yeah, me too actually. I went and watched A Quiet Place day one instead, which. Oh, how was it?

[01:18:08] It was good. It was if you like The Quiet Place movies so thrilling and Lupita Nyong'o, her performance was really, really good. Oh, she's great. Yeah. And she was actually in this. I feel a bit jaded. Monster movies haven't been hitting with me. I don't know.

[01:18:25] I don't know. I feel like I've seen too many of them or something. But I think any Quiet Place fan is going to love this. Right. So another movie, Kevin Costner has this Western Horizon and American Saga. You hear about that? No.

[01:18:43] He bankrolled this four part Western part one came out last weekend. Part two comes out in August. This is why he's not in the last season of Yellowstone. I was going to say Yellowjackets. I was like, yeah, I mean, he was really great as one of those schoolgirls.

[01:19:02] Kevin Costner is coach. Go team. No. So he was in Yellowstone, you know, that Western and he isn't going to be in the last season. But anyway, the first one came out and it apparently isn't very successful. So I kind of feel bad for Kevin Costner.

[01:19:23] We'll see what happens. But anyway, Michael Rooker's in that as Sergeant Major Thomas Reardon. Oh, OK. Sonico Martin Green, of course, has been playing Captain Michael Burnham in Star Trek Discovery. I don't know if that's over, actually.

[01:19:37] I think I thought they were in the middle of their final season, but maybe it's already over. It's been bumped around a few different channels over here. So we've kind of lost the thread a little bit. Hmm. Look into that.

[01:19:47] Steven Yeun, of course, is Mark Grayson in Invincible. It's on a break right now, but it's still ongoing. And is Jon Bernthal in the bear this season? He's turned up once so far. We're only in episode two, but yeah. Yeah. OK.

[01:20:01] And and he's going to be playing the Punisher again in the upcoming Daredevil Born Again too. So those are a few. Hmm. Yeah. And then next, the Empire magazine that comes out tomorrow as we're recording this has an interview with Andrew Lincoln.

[01:20:18] They say he talks about his time on The Walking Dead a lot. So I'm curious to see how that's going to come out. But they put out already an interesting bit ahead of time. He's talking about... Some nice clickbait. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It is genuinely. Yeah, it's interesting.

[01:20:31] Yeah. He's talking about Glenn's death on the show. Hmm. And he says, I do still think it might have been when we over egged the omelet. Ha ha. Ha ha. He says maybe it was lingering too much.

[01:20:43] He said filming it was among the most intense than nights of shooting I've ever been part of. He said of Jeffrey Dean Morgan, who he says is one of the nicest guys you're ever going to meet playing one of the most unpleasant characters.

[01:20:57] He said he had to do this extraordinary monologue on his first day at work and everybody was on their knees and weeping when they weren't on camera. And he came over and went, is this normal? And I went, yeah, everybody just keeps going. It was an extraordinary night.

[01:21:10] Ha ha. Hmm. Oh, I do sometimes think about GDM having a lot of people in it. Oh, I do sometimes think about GDM having to come in with that as his first fucking scene. Like, geez.

[01:21:22] Oh, I know we give them a bit of a hard time for wanting me to become a hero, but I am a bit like, I remember seeing a video of a convention that he was at cause he was in supernatural, you know?

[01:21:34] So he was already doing convention type stuff before he was on the walking dead and he was talking about cause they had announced him as Negan and he was like talking about his agent calling him up and saying, would you want to play Negan on the walking dead?

[01:21:48] And he was like, fucking Negan. Yeah, I want to play fucking Negan like that, you know? So he was already getting into the spirit of it. He was really excited to get that role. Yeah. I mean, be careful what you wish for.

[01:22:03] No, I think he's still, I think he's still pretty jazzed about it. But yeah, the core of that though, that's interesting is Andrew Lincoln saying maybe we overdid it with Glenn and I think so.

[01:22:18] I think they got all excited about the special effects of the eyeball popping out and didn't realize that's like really cruel to viewers who love that character. Yeah, no, it's interesting to hear them speak out about it. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:35] And I'm curious to see what else he'll say about his time on the walking dead. He'll be like, I never liked Scott Wilson. No, I'm just kidding. Scott Wilson was a real pain in the ass. No, everyone loved Scott Wilson. Okay, final item.

[01:22:49] So as we remember, Maggie left the walking dead for a little while. She left, I think in the same episode that Rick did, or maybe it was the one that came. Yeah, that was her last episode. No, yeah, you're right. Yeah.

[01:22:59] And then she came back towards the end of season 10, what was going to be the season 10 finale until they extended it. And she had been with this group of people that were being attacked by Pope and the Reapers. And one of her people was Frost.

[01:23:12] Do you remember that guy? I'm going to Google what he looks like. He was kind of her right hand man, I think. And he was the guy that Daryl, when Daryl had to pretend that he was on Pope's side. Yes.

[01:23:24] They had to torture him and cut his finger off. And then the Pope tortured him to death. So I remember thinking he was a cool character in the short time he was on the show.

[01:23:34] And this actor who played him, Glenn Stanton is in a new movie called Penitentia. And his publicist actually asked me if I would give it a shout out. So I watched the trailer and it looks like a suspenseful crime thriller kind of thing, maybe with a social message.

[01:23:51] He plays a lawyer who's in this big firm that covers high profile clients, but he's spending his time investigating this schizophrenic woman who's being held in solitary confinement. And he thinks unjustly and everyone's telling him not to waste his time with that. Something like that.

[01:24:05] But the description says in Penitentia, a prestigious job lulls Ali Villicano into the good life until a pro bono case reawakens his instincts for justice caught between his criminal past and his promising future. Ali must decide what kind of lawyer he's really meant to be.

[01:24:22] And this character of Ali's mentor was inspired by the writer director, Chris Lawing's father, Jim Lawing, who was a prominent attorney from Wichita, Kansas, member of the ACLU and an active leader in the ACLU of Kansas.

[01:24:36] And to recognize his career as a civil rights warrior, the ACLU of Kansas created the Jim Lawing Award in 2016 to honor defenders of the constitution. So the writer director said for any indie filmmaker, the release date is both magical and terrifying.

[01:24:52] I'm just happy to finally be able to share this story with a wider audience to honor my dad and all the people like him fighting the good fight. So I thought I would mention that and it's available to rent on Apple TV, Amazon, Fandango and other channels.

[01:25:06] So if you're a fan of that character Frost and you decide to watch it, I'm curious to know what you think. Let me know. Yeah, it sounds fascinating. I'm into it. I'll put a link to the trailer in the show notes in case anyone's curious. Sweet.

[01:25:20] All right, let's move on to Lister Mone's Girl in the Grunts. Connor Riley says the governor is a menace. Yes, he is that pesky governor. Wendy says anyone watch the gov in Britannia? Have you watched that? I didn't watch Britannia, but it was very popular.

[01:25:44] I think it was like sort of prehistoric British stuff. And yeah, I think he had quite a big role in it. So yeah, I've only seen him in that Doctor Who thing as far as I can remember and quite a contrast to the governor.

[01:25:59] Simon Graham says the governor was my favorite Walking Dead villain. Well, Simon, this is a good era for you. Becky Fenner Anderson said he's so good at being bad. I will never forgive Andrea or him for what happens later. Which part? Just all of it. Probably Herschel.

[01:26:18] Yeah, he is so good at being bad. Sounds like a Taylor Swift song. I love it. Becky, lock that down. Rodney Milton says, oh, Milton. Hello. Loving doing my own rewatch along with you folks. The only trouble is the season is so good.

[01:26:33] I keep wanting to watch the next episode straight away. Rodney, you know my struggle. Yeah, Lucy just watches them all. Every day. I'm just like, where will I get to? It's hard because when I'm like sick, it's like my comfort show.

[01:26:46] So I'm a bit like, oh, so I started just picking random episodes quite far away from where we are to kind of keep the momentum. I have so many shows like I'm trying to stay caught up on House of the Dragon, on The Bear, on The Boys.

[01:27:03] And then there's movies that I want to watch. I still haven't seen Oppenheimer. And so I get so paralyzed that I end up just like reading comics and not watching anything. Yeah, watching old stuff that I'm like, yeah, I've seen this a million times. It's fine.

[01:27:15] Jonathan Buccalow says, ah, the governor, one of my favorite villains. And who could forget Milton? I wonder if Lucy was mad for Milton. As I say, Jonathan, not mad for Milton, but maybe a bit good for the governor at this point. You know, that changes. That changes.

[01:27:31] That's quotable. He goes, I read The Rise of the Governor books, which are excellent. I might have to have a big binge this weekend to catch up. Arrgh. Here's a call from Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of us.

[01:27:45] This is Steve and this is for The Walking Dead season three, episode three. Walk with me. Oh, another helicopter. And Andrea Michonne are going to walk toward the crashed helicopter. OK, this group with that's here at the helicopter, they have an archer, too, who can headshot

[01:28:01] from pretty close, but still. And Michonne just killed her pets. Oh, but they've been discovered by, is that Merle? It is Merle and he recognizes Andrea. Oh, blondie. Merle actually seems kind of human here. Listen to Andrea recount for him what's been happening. But we'll see. That's right.

[01:28:22] Michonne and Andrea don't know about the whole infected thing. But now they do that if you die, you turn whether you're bit or not. Right. You claim you're going to send them on their way with no hard feelings. We'll see. Welcome to Woodbury, a protected community.

[01:28:38] OK, so this pilot was at another community similar to Woodbury, but it didn't last. And he just revealed that he's got what? What did he say? 30? So three of them. So 25 or more out there.

[01:28:50] So he Milton figured out why Michonne had her pets, that they were repellent and camouflage, as the governor says. Impressive breakfast, eggs and tea, some sort of bread on the table there that Milton and the governor are feeding Andrea Michonne and fishing conversation.

[01:29:06] OK, so I guess he told her what the soldier with the guy, the helicopter pilot said about his community. She just said that soldier had walls and we see what happened. And the governor does call it civilization. And earlier that woman called it Rome. We'll see.

[01:29:19] Of course, they want to leave. But every time they mention leaving, the governor just gives him another reason to stick around. Relax. You might like it here. Oh, this must be the soldier, the helicopter pilots group. Oh, and the governor just shot him.

[01:29:31] And they're just oh, they must be in the trees. Yep. In the trees, in the bushes. And the governor just crushed that guy's skull with the butt of that rifle. Yeah, they're not nice people.

[01:29:41] And what story are they going to give Woodbury about how they got all these vehicles and weapons? So they're going to claim that biters got them. And the governor says he never tells his real name. Eww. And he's got secrets, heads in tanks. Eww, I love it.

[01:30:00] I love it. Steve sounding kind of sultry. Maybe he had a cold. Yeah. We got our first live Steve over at the BearCast. We really felt that we'd made it. We've arrived. We've arrived. We've got Nevada O'Brien saying, imagine living in the wild, being chased by monsters,

[01:30:17] starving and being so sick you could die. Terrified all the time, never being able to sleep properly. What a harrowing existence. Then someone takes you into their care, feeds you, cares for you and makes you well.

[01:30:29] You sleep well, get fresh clean clothes and feel safe for the first time in a long time. You begin to relax your defences and feel like you're once again part of a community. I think this is how Andrea felt.

[01:30:40] It blinded her to the underlying danger that Michonne could sense. I have to say, I'd be on the warm bed, full tummy side until the freaky business started. I really enjoyed last week's podcast. It was great fun and good to listen to. I loved hearing from Gemma too.

[01:30:54] Oh, we enjoyed having Gemma on. So thank you for that. Yeah, it'll be interesting to keep watching and pay attention to the red flags that Andrea ignores because if I remember right, she does start ignoring some pretty big ones. Yes, she really does.

[01:31:11] So far, I don't blame her for anything that she's done. Yeah, right now I'm like, yeah, baby crack open a beer. Give that guy eyes. Flirt, flirt, flirt. Billy Thompson says, Merle really steals the show this episode. Although this is the first time we see the governor.

[01:31:28] Michael Rooker's charisma is undeniable and his reveal is brilliant. Now how about a big hug for your old pal Merle as he stands there gun at the end of one arm, stabby stab at the end of one another. Then Andrea fainting, just brilliant. Yeah.

[01:31:41] But just a quick thought is the flu that Andrea has right now, maybe the same flu they all get seem to get next season. I've always thought it was connected in some way, but maybe it isn't. I don't know.

[01:31:53] I know that they've tried to say that there's a danger even when they rub the guts all over them that you could get sick from that. You know, I think that's what Gabriel. A theory.

[01:32:07] It's either in the passage by Justin Cronin or the standby Stephen King or both. The after an apocalyptic wipeout event, there's a second wipeout within about a year where it's disease that wouldn't, it's not necessarily the disease that everyone got, but it's like

[01:32:23] the things that wouldn't usually kill you, but do. And I've always thought this was maybe that starting to happen in both cases. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, people get sick no matter what. So could be any of that. Uh, Billy goes on.

[01:32:38] I always forget that these other characters haven't been on the entire journey with the main group and they don't all know all the information we do like Merle, not knowing Amy died, which happened so early on also Michonne and Andrea, not knowing everyone

[01:32:51] is infected and they come back regardless. I love how in the early seasons, there's this mystique about the walkers, how we learn more about them through Milton and Dr. Jenner. Like they're more than just mindless zombies, which they seem to be in later seasons.

[01:33:05] I think they are now still, but yeah, they're still learning about them. We see glimpses of the governor's dark side throughout this episode. Like when he kills the military guy with his knife and closes his eyes like he felt relief. He got his fix of killing the living.

[01:33:18] That's true. We didn't mention that. He's like, Oh, like a total psycho. Uh, but the end scene is so iconic. It reveals just how psychotic and how dangerous he's going to be throughout the coming seasons. Fuck. I love the walking dead. Thanks guys. Bye. I love that.

[01:33:36] We love it too. Um, Rachel Teal Edward says, I forgot how quickly we learned how villainous the governor is. He's so slimy right away, just too slick and nice and accommodating.

[01:33:46] I would love to know what my original reaction to him was, but this time around I was thinking this is obviously too good to be true, Andrea, but also Michonne, maybe be a little less dramatic.

[01:33:56] Since my message last week in defense of Rick's dictatorship, I've been thinking about the governor as a leader compared to Rick. After a lot of consideration, I realized that a strong moral compass, integrity and

[01:34:06] transparency are three more essential characteristics of a good leader and their traits that Rick possesses. At least at this point, it's the governor's lack of these traits that actually makes him a great villain.

[01:34:17] He's evil and he's unapologetically too faced, but I think he also truly believes he is a good leader, which makes him totally unhinged and more fun to watch. Only a true psychopath could be so deceitfully inspiring and charismatic a few moments after

[01:34:30] looting and murdering a bunch of innocent men. Rick telling his people, this is how we're going to do things and you can accept it or move on is arguably an example of the transparency that distinguishes him as a good leader.

[01:34:41] He did say that right after revealing something he'd been hiding from them for a long time. You know, you've got to hit them with one hand and hand them something good with the other. That's how I do it.

[01:34:53] There's a history teacher of mine at school once tried to explain, I think it was like Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia or something. He's like, so essentially what Hitler did was hit them over the head and then give them a box of chocolates.

[01:35:08] And I'm like, oh, and I always think about that now. I'm like, yeah, it's like hitting someone over the head and then give them a box of chocolates. You're like, out of my head, mmm, chocolates. So you know, transparency. Who knew? Um, Rachel goes on.

[01:35:22] Sorry, Rachel for that diversion into my high school history career. Random stuff. I can't stand the governor's invincibility multiple times throughout these two seasons. He's walking fairly upright and totally unprotected while a massive firefight is taking place all around him. It's psycho behaviour, but also totally unbelievable.

[01:35:38] And it drives me crazy. There is a cool shot in this one where he's walking and the guys are getting shot down in front of him. Very good. Rachel says Merlin and Andrew both come dangerously close to relatable and likable during their heart to heart.

[01:35:50] Maybe they should have hooked up. LOL. I've never noticed before that one of the governor's soldiers follows Andrea and would breathe from a distance through this whole episode, keeping an eye on them. That's Schumpert. Okay.

[01:36:01] I'm going to keep a track of these leadership traits I keep talking about so I can more objectively see how Rick changes over time as I'm a hardcore Rick apologist. I've also realised that I'm treating this rewatch like research for a dissertation I'd

[01:36:13] love to write to earn my Doctor of Walking Dead DWD and I'm loving every minute of it. Thanks Jason and Lucy. Thank you, Rachel. I always love reading your feedback. Yeah, I'm trying to keep an eye on Rick too and try to…because I've always said that

[01:36:28] he got really dark and did a lot of things I didn't approve of. And so I'm just really keeping an eye on that to see when it starts. And it already has started to a degree, I feel like, but it gets so much worse.

[01:36:42] It's also…all this stuff about leadership literally right now coming to you from the past. We're just waiting on the exit poll results in the UK elections so leadership is on my mind today.

[01:36:54] Yeah, in about five to ten minutes we'll know how things are looking and then if I'm willing to stay up all night I could find out more but I'm also quite tired so we'll see. Yeah, election days are so anxious. First one in a while. Good luck.

[01:37:11] Thank you. All right, that is our show episode 588. Thanks everybody for listening. Next episode coming in two weeks is The Walking Dead season three episode four Killer Within. It's a really fun one. It's one of the most uplifting I would say.

[01:37:33] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it you can find all our contact information at podcastka.com. Yeah and check out our other podcasts while you're there.

[01:37:42] After a two-year break, Rima, Richard and I just put out an episode of Cobra Kai Cast getting ready for the upcoming final season of that show and we also covered The Next Karate Kid which is the fourth Karate Kid movie from back in 1994 starring Hilary Swank

[01:37:58] in her first big movie role. No way. It's not a good movie but we actually found a lot to like about it. I'm like yay, like it's not a good movie but...

[01:38:09] Well she's good in it which is why they were like well this is a bad movie but look at her we need to get her in some good movies because she was in Million Dollar Baby and that one about Brandon Teena that I forget the name.

[01:38:21] Yeah she had a real kind of... Voice Don't Cry. Yeah a real kind of celebrity a while ago. Yeah yeah but I'm so looking forward to the final Cobra Kai. I've been watching trailers and stuff and it looks really really fun.

[01:38:34] And also you guys are getting going with Let It Rip. You're working on episode two and how's that been going? The Bear podcast by the way. It's been fun. We're learning a lot. We cooked something amazing this week. We cooked chicken piccata. I saw the picture.

[01:38:49] Oh it was delicious. It was so good. So we talked a lot about that this week but yeah no we're getting there. We're finding our feet which is nice. It's killing us not binging the whole season so... I bet.

[01:39:00] Have a listen to the fruits of our labors as we are woefully behind everyone else on this cultural moment. I haven't even watched episode two yet. Is it a good one? It's a lot of yelling and we worked out it's um...

[01:39:11] No no we worked out there's three fucks per minute roughly. If you work out the full amount of times people say fuck in the episode so yeah. All right. All right. This episode was made possible by Patreon supporters like Lisa Walter who pledge their

[01:39:28] support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabasi. So thank you so much Lisa. Thanks Lisa. That is it. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Simon Graham.