590: "Killer Within" (TWD S3E4 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The You gotta do what you promised me. You'll always do what's right. It's so easy to do the wrong thing in this world. So... So if it feels wrong, don't do it. Alright?

[00:00:58] If it feels easy, don't do it. Don't let the world screw you. You're so good. My sweet boy. The best thing I ever did. I love you. I love you. My sweet, sweet boy, I love you. Hey, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:00] I'm Jason and I'm Lucy, and this is the cast of us episode 590. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season three, episode four, Killer Within. We're getting close to 600. What should we do? Go on holiday to Scotland. Let's not do a 600. We'll go on holiday instead.

[00:02:19] We're going on holiday to Scotland for number 590, which is right now. We're here. Yeah. We're sitting across the table from each other. And it's been such a freaking cool trip. It has been. A lot of whiskey has been had. You guys are pretty good vacation partners. Aw, thanks.

[00:02:36] We have a few days left, but. That's because we drive. We've been like going to whiskey distilleries and eating all the food and seeing all the views and everything. It's been so good. It's been so fun to have you guys show us around. Oh, we're having a blast.

[00:02:53] It's really good. Yeah. So let's talk about death. Oh, God. So it's The Walking Dead season three, episode four, Killer Within. It's quite an iconic episode. I'm going to do the plot summary and then we'll talk about it.

[00:03:08] So plot summary from Wikipedia says Michonne tries to convince Andrea to leave Woodbury while Merle presses her for information on Daryl. At the prison, walkers are unleashed upon the group. T-Dog is bitten and sacrifices himself so that Carol can escape, but she seemingly dies too.

[00:03:26] Oscar and Axel help Rick, Daryl, and Glenn search for the others. They find Andrew who survived and sought revenge upon them, but Oscar kills him. Meanwhile, Laurie goes into labor and becomes trapped within the halls of the prison.

[00:03:39] Maggie is forced to perform a C-section to save the baby and Laurie dies in childbirth. Carl shoots Laurie to prevent reanimation as the survivors regroup. Rick is devastated. In case you forgot what happened in this episode.

[00:03:56] I mean, I forgot a few things because the Laurie death scene is really what stands out. So I kind of forgot that T-Dog died in this one. Yeah, I forgot how he died. I had it in my head he died down in the tombs.

[00:04:10] Well, he does die down in the tombs, but I thought he got bit down there. I forgot that he like sacrifices himself to close the gate for everyone, which is heartbreaking. I just thought of this as the Laurie death episode so I wasn't even thinking about poor

[00:04:22] old T-Dog. And then I forgot that this was the one where Glenn and Maggie were doing it in the garden tower. And I forgot that it was Oscar that killed Andrew. Yeah, Oscar. I want to talk about Oscar today. We'll talk about all that.

[00:04:42] But what did you how was it to watch this one again? Oh yeah, just harrowing. Just really harrowing. It's just so sad. Do you consider it a good episode or just a bummer?

[00:04:53] I think it's a great episode of The Walking Dead because we still care so much and it's still really impactful and it's so formative for everyone going forward, especially for Carl and Rick.

[00:05:06] Because Carl's on the, he's on a little dark road at this point and I don't, I think this, you know, it doesn't help, but I think ultimately he does remember his mom's words about being good and doing what's right.

[00:05:18] And it's very, just very emotional and it breaks Rick like Rick's gone. He's done at this point for a little while. He can't stand on his two feet. So he's so devastated. Although meme culture has kind of ruined that scene a little bit.

[00:05:33] That scene launched a thousand memes. It did. And back then, this, I always say the Laurie death scene is the most emotional scene in The Walking Dead for me. You know, I always get choked up watching it. But Rick's reaction is close to that too.

[00:05:49] I get choked up watching that and I did watching it again last night. But also you just think about all those memes. I know. Telling dumb dad jokes. If you haven't, if you've been living under a rock for the last 10 years, check out Rick

[00:06:03] Grimes dad jokes meme and you'll know what we mean. Well, let's see. I had a couple. Let me see if I can find them. These are the ones that came up. Probably these are the best ones, which will tell you how bad they are.

[00:06:17] So usually there's like three or four panels that show Rick just getting closer and closer to Carl with that look, crying look on his face. While Carl like stares off into the distance dead inside. No dad.

[00:06:32] So Rick says, so I tried making a pencil with an eraser at both ends and Carl says, Dad, I swear. And Rick says, but then I realized it was pointless. And then he bends down. It was pointless, Carl. I got two more.

[00:06:48] What Rick says this one time you swallowed some coins and we had to take you to the hospital. We asked the nurse how you were doing and she said, there's been no change. But he bends down, but no change, Carl. And here's the last one.

[00:07:03] Why did the chicken cross the road? Carl says, why Rick says to get to the ugly guy's house. Then Rick says, knock, knock. And Carl says, who's there? And Rick says, the chicken. Then he moves it closer. Carl says, stop. And he goes, it's the chicken, Carl.

[00:07:16] It's such a good joke. Yeah, I thought it was so intense and tragic and maybe a bit misery porn. That might be a little bit where I'm a little different now that I'm like, God, they're just raking these guys over the cold just for drama and entertainment.

[00:07:47] It's still a great episode. Yeah, it's one of those things where if you put a little pressure on the logic of it, you're like, could they really? The buzzing had stopped. Like there's a… Oh, I know. Yeah. Like I actually watched it twice.

[00:07:59] I watched it a couple days ago and I was thinking that too. Then I heard you say, can't they just… Because Carl said, let me go get help. And Laurie said, no. And then they had to kill her and then they just left. They just walked out.

[00:08:16] And Maggie and Carl and Judith just went right out. And I'm like, maybe they could have done that a few minutes ago at least tried, you know, look around the corner and see if the coast is clear. Yeah, absolutely. But it's all for the drama. Oh, absolutely.

[00:08:28] I believe that biologically, said Lucy. He's not a doctor of science. I remember the first time we saw this episode, a friend of mine, a close friend of mine was pregnant and she was like, yeah, it wasn't a great episode to watch while I was pregnant.

[00:08:39] But then I looked up and I think that your body is actually quite good at not letting you go into labor in life or death situations because it's like, you know, little primordial brain of like survival, survival. So who's to say? Who's to say?

[00:08:53] And one thing that TV shows often do is they rush how long labor takes. It takes hours. And I was telling you guys yesterday, but just for the listeners, when Jenny went into labor with Nico, she's a doctor.

[00:09:07] So she knew she would be giving birth at the same hospital that she works at. So she started having contractions. She went in, did a full day's work and then had the baby. Just like Laurie pants off bleeding everywhere. But like, yeah, hold on a second.

[00:09:22] It's really traumatic. Nico was there. It was great. Everyone loved it. So let's get our points. Um, well my first point is so off the back of that. I have Maggie in this episode, man, like hero, but also has to go through absolute hell.

[00:09:38] Like she's so in control in those moments and she's so good with Carl. But what Laurie asks her to do is awful. Like it's really bad and she's not like morally bad, but just like it's, it's a lot to ask of somebody.

[00:09:53] And Maggie like takes the helm and is in control and delivers Judith. And I remember in season 10 when Maggie reappears, there's this really nice kind of silent moment where she and Judith see each other. And I remember when I watched season 10, I was like, oh shit. Yeah.

[00:10:08] Maggie delivered. Yeah. And it was just this really meaningful moment because Judith must know that as well. Um, I'd hope so. But yeah, Maggie's just, you know, she, we start the episode with her and Glenn in the tower there.

[00:10:23] They've clearly moved out of the cell block a little bit to have some private time. She's eye rolling at the guys giving them shit about you coming. Um, and you know, her dad's just been through this big, horrible amputation. He nearly died.

[00:10:39] So she takes Laurie into the prison with Carl. They try to get to the cell block, but it's overrun and they end up in the tombs. I was saying they were in the generator room, but I think it's actually a boiler room because

[00:10:50] I think Rick goes to the generator room. Yeah. That's what it's called in the wiki, the boiler room. The boiler room. Um, Maggie, I did laugh at her first thing. It was like, gotta get your pants off. I'm like, I mean, yes, but like, you know, how undignified.

[00:11:04] And the way she was standing there, uh, Laurie having contractions and labor pains that reminded me of Jenny in the hospital. I was with her. We were taking a walk down the hall and she's all, hold on a second.

[00:11:16] She goes over to the side and holds onto the railing and just bears down for a second. Not pushing, but just in having a contraction. It seemed really similar. And I thought that was a little element of realism because usually in birth scenes, they're always laying down. Yeah.

[00:11:33] I mean, TV and movies have sold us completely incorrectly how women want to give birth. I don't think it's supernatural to be lying back with your legs in stirrups, just quietly going through what's happening.

[00:11:44] Like you want to stand up, you want to be on all fours, you want to be moving around. And I thought Sarah Wayne Calley's really sold it. Yeah, she was so good. She was so good. Her performance was really good throughout this whole thing.

[00:11:54] I think she based it on her own birth experience, but I'm hoping her own birth experience wasn't that bad. She has kids. Yeah, she has one, I think. I don't think I knew that.

[00:12:02] So Maggie, it starts off kind of like, you know, she asked Carla, you're ready to help with your baby brother or sister. So it's not like lighthearted because it's obviously a really traumatic situation, but they're treating it like a normal delivery and then it becomes apparent that something

[00:12:15] is wrong because Laurie's bleeding a lot. And then of course we see Laurie down on the ground. She's losing consciousness. She's decided, Laurie's decided at that point that she's dying. She knows she's, and I think I read in the IMD facts that from Sarah Wayne Calley's perspective,

[00:12:35] Laurie knew it was a death sentence. She knew she wasn't going to get out alive and that was what she'd always been thinking up to this point, which is, I guess you an interesting way of looking at it, looking at this performance. Yeah.

[00:12:50] I mean, cause I, you know, we've talked about this a little bit before, but I thought that the reason why they set it up so that she was separate from Herschel is to suggest that if she was with Herschel, maybe she could have survived, you know?

[00:13:08] But you're saying she didn't think that. I don't think she did because the kind of complication she's having, it doesn't look like one that you could without serious modern medicine. That's a good point. Yeah. So maybe it didn't matter.

[00:13:20] Cause Maggie's saying, I have no anesthetic, no equipment and Laurie's just saying my baby has to survive. I think Laurie's not surprised by any of this. But I just Maggie's performance man, she is so overwhelmed and so in control at the same time.

[00:13:39] She apologizes to Laurie before she does it, but then she's very calm in terms of getting Carl to help her get the baby out. I'd forgotten that Judith's a little quiet when she's born. So Maggie has to kind of massage her to get her crying.

[00:13:52] Well that moment, I think they were deliberately trying to make us think the baby was still born and it was awful because they made it last a long time. And I think that would have been such a bleak occurrence, right?

[00:14:10] But they left the baby silent long enough for us to just be like, what, what, what, and then oh, thank God. Little ass kicker. And I'd forgotten that Maggie tries to get Carl to take Judith so that she can put Laurie

[00:14:25] down because Laurie says to Maggie, it can't be Rick. Like it doesn't cross her mind that it might be Carl and Carl says she's my mom and Maggie let's him. Yeah, I know. I think Maggie's like, I'm done. I'm done. I got to get out of here.

[00:14:40] So Maggie leaves. We hear the shot and Carl walks past her and Maggie's just like horrified. And then this whole courtyard scene where we're focused on Rick and Carl, Maggie's freaking out. She's holding this baby covered in blood. She's trying to stop Rick running into the prison.

[00:14:55] She looks devastated when Rick tries to walk past her. She says no, Rick, no. Then we kind of cut to the dad meme scene. But you know, Andrew Lincoln giving an amazing performance rolling around on the ground.

[00:15:06] But Maggie just walked straight to Glenn and breaks down because she's just been through absolute hell and back. And you while you're watching it, you're like, can someone please hug Carl? Oh my God, Carl's standing there like, oh, and everyone's just looking at him.

[00:15:17] I'm like, could someone give this kid a hug? When you said that, I'm like, she's right. They're all having their own things happening. So I can sort of forgive it. But it's like that poor kid. I mean, at least Darryl. Someone give him a hug.

[00:15:31] He's just standing there. I was going to say T-dog but nope. Nope. T-dog. I was like, no, Carl's gone too. Axel, I guess? I don't know. Like, you're okay son. Axel was really there for me. Yeah, I just thought Lauren Cohen did amazingly well in that scene.

[00:15:47] She's always given quite like, I think of all the characters, she's given quite a lot of devastating stuff to react to because there's this, there's her dad, there's Beth, there's Glenn. Like, she's the one who has to do the most sort of reacting devastations living through

[00:16:05] suffering and torment. And I'm sort of like, no wonder Lauren Cohen wanted to leave the show for a little bit. Well, yeah, I mean, you want a good media role, but there's only so much you can take. There's only so much misery you can take.

[00:16:19] Yeah, and I mean, I like how she was reluctant, right, to do this, but it's like a lot of things on this show. It's like, no, I mean, we're stuck. We got to do the best we can in this situation. And that means rising to the occasion.

[00:16:34] And it's pretty rare that people don't rise to the occasion. I'm thinking of Father Gabriel. He sure didn't at first. We didn't get to see it, but leaving all his parishioners outside, but eventually he did. He rode up.

[00:16:46] It made me think as well about what a big deal it was for her and Glenn to go on to have Herschel because they were making Herschel earlier in the day and then she was delivering somebody else. Glenn, I don't want to sleep with you for a while.

[00:17:00] Like we're done. Those condoms? Yeah, no, like we've still got one left. Um, yeah, I mean that, I think having a kid in the zombie apocalypse, like you are taking your life in your hands because there is a lot that could go wrong.

[00:17:17] There's a lot that, you know, That would be a big factor in my decision of whether to have a kid if it's a zombie apocalypse. I'm pretty sure I would say no. I mean, you're, you're, it's such no judgment, but personally, yeah,

[00:17:30] we're so lucky now to live in a place where you can give birth safely and be fine. But for, for Maggie, yeah, I just couldn't, I couldn't stop thinking like, so she loses

[00:17:40] Glenn and then she has to go through being pregnant and giving birth to Herschel on her own. I'm sure people were there when she gave birth to Herschel, but she must have been terrified. Like she's seen just how bad it can go. Did we not see that?

[00:17:55] I can't remember. No, we time skip, remember? Because there was that whole thing in season eight where Maggie basically doesn't look pregnant. Because she was pregnant for like four seasons or something. And still had like a perfectly toned flat stomach and was like, yeah, morning sickness, whatever. Yeah.

[00:18:09] And I just thought, God, what a strong character Maggie Green and Maggie Rhee are. Like that's, that takes a lot. Like a lot of characters just forged in these kinds of experiences where you realize what you're capable of, you know? Oh, it was, it was a lot.

[00:18:23] And I just thought, you know what, Maggie, you stepped up to the plate in a situation where you're being asked to do something horrible. Horrible. Yeah. Kept calm. They were all pretty calm. I admired both of their performances.

[00:18:35] And I, I think that happens sometimes when you're in a really serious life or death situation. I mean, this isn't exactly the same, but I, I used to ride a motorcycle and I had a couple of close calls and I just remember I felt really focused.

[00:18:55] Like what exactly do I need to do right now quickly to get out of this, you know? And not like, oh my God! Yeah, I know. I'm like lying on the ground like, oh no! Oh my God, what do I gotta do? You're like, okay.

[00:19:04] Okay, adrenaline focuses the mind. Yeah. You hope that's what will happen. You never know though when you think about how would I be in these situations. Exactly. Well, I'm going to, I'll just go ahead and talk about the whole birth and since we're kind of on that. Yeah.

[00:19:12] Let me look through my notes. Maggie said Herschel taught her how to tell whether a woman in labor is dilated. And I'm like, I wonder how that conversation went. Well, listen here. You can't tell a woman in labor from a man in labor. I mean, I don't know.

[00:19:18] I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. And then it's so intense just to have her going in labor right in the middle of this Walker attack and blood all over her hand.

[00:19:45] Just like, oh my God, this, this episode is a lot. It really is. And she needs a C-section and Maggie's reluctant. And you know, she, like you said, Laurie's like my baby has to survive my baby for all of us.

[00:20:01] And knowing that the baby ends up being Judith makes this have even more significance to us now maybe than it did back then. You know, I was thinking about Kaylee Fleming watching this and also thinking about when

[00:20:12] Carol and Tyrese had Judith on the road with Lizzie and Mika and Lizzie almost killed baby Judith and stuff. Oh my gosh. I love Fleming's portrayal. Oh, so great. Yeah. Oh yeah. So then Laurie's talking to Carl saying take care of your daddy and your sister and you're

[00:20:31] going to beat this world. I know you will. And we were hopeful then but now we're like, no, he doesn't. For a little while he does. But that's sad and that still just makes me mad at AMC. Then she says, you got to do what's right.

[00:20:46] You promised me you'll always do what's right. It's so easy to do the wrong thing in this world. If it feels easy, don't do it. Don't let the world spoil you.

[00:20:53] And I thought about two things this time when she was saying all that one is I think she has been worried that Carl's too aggressive and hard going to be hardened in this world and she doesn't want to be like that.

[00:21:05] And maybe this is sort of the core of when he wrote that letter that I keep talking about to Rick later on that sort of changed Rick's mind about how to be in this world to be more civilized and more compassionate and stuff.

[00:21:19] But also I think she's saying when she says if it feels easy, don't do it. I think she's thinking about how she went with Shane too. Maybe. Yeah, that's the most confusing bit about what she says because sometimes the right thing is easy. Sometimes it's yeah.

[00:21:35] But I think it's a beautiful, beautiful. It is like when it comes to like trusting your gut. Sometimes the thing that feels that your emotions are pushing you to do or is not the right thing. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it is. Exactly.

[00:21:51] Sometimes you got to hold that anger and be like, no, I'm not gonna. Exactly. I'm not gonna. I'm gonna go to jail if I do what I feel like doing right now. Exactly. Then she says my sweet boy, I love you. And I always cry during that part.

[00:22:02] And I think of how Chandler Riggs was just this little kid growing up doing this show and knew that Sarah Wayne Kelly's wasn't going to be around anymore. And so they probably both drew on that. I think they said they did in interviews and stuff.

[00:22:15] Best thing I ever did. Yeah. I love you. Yeah, it's such a good scene. And then, you know, I mean, I always put a clip from the episode at the beginning of each podcast and I tend to pick whatever feels like the juiciest, a certain moment, something

[00:22:33] that shows on what's my mind about the episode or that's funny or relevant or whatever. And so far for the rewatch, I'm pretty sure I haven't used the same clip that we originally did back then because new things are interesting now.

[00:22:46] But in this episode, I can't imagine using anything but Laurie's speech to Carl. We'll see. You guys will know whether I did or not when you're hearing this, but that seems like the main thing, right?

[00:22:57] I believe I learned that Glenn Mazzara took that from stuff his own mom had said. Because he just lost his mom before the season aired. Sometimes when showrunners or writers put too much of themselves into it, it can may

[00:23:12] feel like a drag, but it works so well here. You needed someone who understood that pain of loss. And yeah, I mean, I hope he didn't lose his mom in these circumstances. You know, you're reminding me, we had a couple interviews with Glenn Mazzara back in the

[00:23:25] day and he may have talked about that in one of those. I'll try to remember to put links in the show notes for those. I think that'd be… Yeah, I'd be interested to listen to those.

[00:23:37] So all this stuff about Maggie being a hero and I was thinking this is T-Dog and Laurie's last day, but it's Judith's first day. And Judith's first day? Yeah, her first appearance. And then Carl wants to be the one to shoot Laurie and that's just so devastating.

[00:23:54] And they play the sad Walking Dead music and everything. And then the flashback of Rick talking to him on the loft in the barn. People are going to die. Mom, there's no way you can ever be ready for it. And here it is happening.

[00:24:10] But the tragic irony of that is that Carl dies later and Rick's not ready for that after he was the one telling him. There's no way you can ever be ready for it. Carl also gives Judith his jacket as soon as she's born. He has a little…

[00:24:24] He's wearing almost like a little Daryl vest situation. He hands it over. It's very sweet. He's looking after her right from the start. And later the hat goes to her. Yeah. All right. What else? All right.

[00:24:38] I mean, probably my least favorite part of this episode is the Woodbury stuff. It's still good. It's still interesting. We see the governor be a bit more quietly manipulative of Andrea, kind of convincing her into staying. We open with Michonne suspicious. She's checking out the tank.

[00:24:57] She seems to have figured out what has happened. You know, she says to the governor, you think one soldier would drive away and the governor's like, those men were heroes. So we're starting to see just how duplicitous the governor is.

[00:25:09] But also how willing Andrea is to believe him. And I'm not blaming Andrea because she is so the victim here of somebody who is a manipulator. And I don't think that Andrea deserves what happens in this season.

[00:25:21] And I'm going to try not to get sucked into the like stupid bitch. But she's got the horn for him. She likes him. I mean, who can blame her? So far, like I'm trying to watch, like I said last time for when it is that I do feel

[00:25:35] like, oh, come on, Andrea. But so far, I mean, Michonne doesn't trust him. And she's being a detective like these vehicles from these soldiers that you said got eaten by zombies have bullet holes in them. CSI Michonne is like, this doesn't make sense.

[00:25:49] Yeah, she's come up with a few different reasons that don't add up. But at least we don't see on screen her telling Andrea any of this. No, we don't. Right? We really do. So far, in my opinion, everything that Andrea knows, I think it totally makes sense that

[00:26:04] not only would she be impressed with this guy and think, hey, this could be a great place to hole up for a while in the freaking zombie apocalypse. But also there's some chemistry and heat between them.

[00:26:15] And there's no shame in being attracted to somebody like that so far. And that's my opinion. And she's had such a glow up like in the first episode, she's like, to die. In this episode, she's like, perfect curls, beautiful complexion, having a drink.

[00:26:29] Like I was just like, oh, Laurie Holden, live your best life. But yeah, Michonne and Andrea are being torn apart by the governor. Andrea wants to stay. And yeah, I'm with you. I don't blame her at this point. She asked Merle. Merle says he's a good guy.

[00:26:43] I mean, would you take Merle's judgment of character? No, I don't know. But Andrea, I guess at this point knows Darryl better and is maybe thinking, well, if Darryl's decent, maybe Merle's not so bad. I don't know.

[00:26:52] It confused me that when Merle's like, so baby, why didn't we ever hook up? That Andrea is smiling at that. I took it as kind of playful. I think she was like, yeah, right, Merle. Yeah, I guess so.

[00:27:04] But the way we know what happened with Merle before on the roof, you'd think that she'd just be like, this guy's a fucker. This guy's a dick. Anyway, I mean, when Merle said that the governor's not a bad guy, you could take that up two ways.

[00:27:18] One is that he's lying. I think he just has a different kind of an idea of what a good guy and a bad guy is. I think Merle's in awe of the governor. I think he's genuinely, until Darryl gets involved, I think he looks up to the governor

[00:27:32] and thinks the decisions he makes are pretty kick ass. Yeah, even though he knows how cutthroat the governor is, he's like, that's what you need to do. It's good. The governor has Merle to heal.

[00:27:42] But I mean, having seen what we've seen of Merle in season one, that's impressive. Andrea does point out that Merle called her a whore and a rug muncher, which is lovely.

[00:27:51] But Merle seems to say, oh yeah, I was a bit, I'm a bit, I've got away with words or something like that. But they seem to be bonding through the loss of siblings.

[00:28:00] You know, Andrea's helping him by giving him a map to the farm saying she'd want the same thing if it was her family out there. And Merle, I think, sees how hurt she was by being left behind from the group.

[00:28:12] He says, you really was cut loose, wasn't you? We both got left behind by the same people and saved by another. So there's that bond there for between the two of them. And when he's asking her, are you curious about the old gang?

[00:28:25] And that's when he sees her reaction. But I don't blame her for not being curious thinking about because the only one she really had any kind of connection with as far as we saw were Amy, Dale and Shane and they're all gone.

[00:28:36] She doesn't know that Shane's dead though. Oh, well, she finds that out later. Maybe she'd be like, I could find Shane. Shane anyone? Actually, you might think that she might be interested in trying to find Shane but that would be the governor now.

[00:28:51] She's like, I got a new man. And it's sad to see Michonne being treated like the boy who cried wolf when actually she's completely right. And Michonne is suggesting going to the coast. She's suggesting all these sensible things.

[00:29:07] And Andrea, I think has made her mind up and Michonne can see that. And it's sad. It's sad that he gets between the two of them like this because I don't think they ever really reconcile until the very last moments of Andrea's life.

[00:29:19] And it's clearly knowing what we know about Michonne now, it clearly takes a lot for her to open up to people and she clearly loves Andrea. And it just sucks. It sucks when a man comes between friends. Yeah.

[00:29:30] I mean, if I was in the zombie apocalypse and I met someone super cool like, you know, but it's the say, it's a guy just to do the whole gender swap thing. And then we found this town and I was like, oh man, this is freaking great.

[00:29:47] And then the leader of the town was this woman who I was attracted to and seemed attracted to me. Yeah. And I'd known Michonne for a few months. I'd be like, well, thank you. I'm going to stay here. I hope you stay with me.

[00:29:59] You know, I wouldn't be like, I'm going to follow you around forever. You're my best friend. Because Andrea's like, what are we going to do? We're going to like live together. We're going to a boat maybe? I don't know. I guess you say. On an island.

[00:30:13] Wouldn't everybody go to the island though? I don't know. Uh huh. So yeah, Woodbury. And obviously the governor and Andrea have a sexy little whiskey together. Yes. And it looked like the governor was going to kiss her. He came in. Yeah.

[00:30:27] But then like, I'm just opening the door and he knew that would like raise her temperature. He is playing her like a violin, but it's working. It would, you know, who can blame her? That's what I think.

[00:30:37] I don't want to like, do you think at this point she should know better? No, I don't think not this early on. I think she's been through too much and we're less than a year into the apocalypse. We don't quite know what people are capable of yet.

[00:30:52] And he presents so well at this point. Like we know going in as readers of the comic and viewers of the show that there's going to be more to it. Andrea's got no reason to think that at this point, especially not when it presents so

[00:31:05] well and offers you. There's probably willful ignorance of some red flags because you're getting a hot shower and a bed. Yeah. Who can blame her for that? The biggest one for me is that he seems to be making excuses to keep them there.

[00:31:19] But in this episode, he says, okay, Merle's going to be there with your weapons. Sorry to see you go, but and who knows, you know, if they would have just left, he might have sent his mercenaries right after them to kill them. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:31:34] I think he would have. But she doesn't know that. Yeah, she doesn't know that. Yeah. I don't hold this one against her. And then Merle, like he's got Merle more under his grasp so he can be more overt with Merle.

[00:31:45] I don't know if the flirting would work with Merle anyway. But he just like Merle wants to go look for Daryl and he's like, no, I'm not going to let you do that. We need you here. I mean, he does charm him a little bit.

[00:31:57] We couldn't, this place wouldn't run without you or whatever he says. So he is sort of trying to manipulate him. I think he's, this is interesting because so far Merle has had nothing.

[00:32:11] The governor helped get him back on his feet and put him in this organization where he can feel useful and whatever. But now that the possibility of finding his brother that now that he's got a reason to be at odds with the governor.

[00:32:26] So this is like the seed of that. Yeah. Well, I just googled if there was any fan fiction for the governor slash Merle. There are 10 works on archive of our own, which is quite low for a fandom called how

[00:32:37] the devil got his dog ain't nobody's bitch favor for a favor and you get what you give as well as some other ones. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not condoning any of these. A lot of them are quite explicit by the looks of it.

[00:32:51] But yeah, so some people ship it. There you go. Some of them are quite highly rated. I totally want to read one of those. Let's do that later. All right. What else I got? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Trusting strangers. So interesting. The name of the Walking Dead.

[00:33:07] I think killer within is it's the title. It's an evocative title on a literal level. Maybe it's more about Andrew being inside the prison and letting the zombies in that kill people. Yeah. But going back to the beginning, this show has been about survival and about trust and

[00:33:21] whether or not to bring people into your circle of trust or your chosen family, which is another big theme of the Walking Dead. I have these people. We need to survive. Can we trust other people? Can we have compassion for other people?

[00:33:35] Or if we can't, then what do we do? Do we need to kill them? And so in season one, Merle was the one that actually they decided not to trust anymore. Rightfully so. Yeah.

[00:33:50] Because of what he was doing on the roof there, threatening everyone waving his gun around. Most of the threats from season two came from within the group one way or another. So we had Marshall keeping zombies in the barn, Randall who they more or less taken

[00:34:01] in and they had to decide whether to trust him and then ultimately whether they could trust Shane. Now in this season, it's about these prisoners. Andrew's a clear threat, but also can they trust Axel and Oscar?

[00:34:16] And then as we talked about over in Woodbury, it's Andrea and Michonne about whether they can trust the governor. So it's kind of like about not knowing for sure whether you can have people in your little circle. And so Axel and Oscar, they want to join the group.

[00:34:35] Oscar says Andrew was one of the bad dudes in the joint, but most others were good guys. T-Dog's arguing to bring them in. And he says, look, we send them off packing, we might as well execute them ourselves.

[00:34:46] And I'm like, wasn't T-Dog one of the ones being okay with killing Randall? Why does he? Yeah, T-Dog is an interesting one there, isn't it? He really takes a different kind of stance. He's the one who's advocating for empathy and yeah, he's very compassionate.

[00:35:01] It seemed like they just needed someone to argue that side. So they picked him. Yeah. And then he paid for it later in the episode. Yeah, I know. Glenn says Axel's a little unstable and I wonder if that was originally supposed to

[00:35:13] be foreshadowing for Axel being a killer. Because as we talked about, I read up a little more on it, episodes had already been written where Axel beat up Carol and took Beth out into the woods and kill her.

[00:35:24] And he was going to have a bunch of Henry Rollins style tattoos all over his body, which is why he's buttoned up. And just be kind of like not what you thought he was. But Lou Temple said they had already changed course by the time he started filming.

[00:35:38] They said the governor needed to kill someone or he'd look impotent. And so he says Axel got the short straw. So he could have actually still been a bad guy, even within what we saw. It just wasn't revealed yet. And he was cut off in his prime.

[00:35:52] Yeah, right. Before he got a chance to do anything. But that really would have changed Rick's story if he'd allowed Axel and Oscar to join them and then Axel killed Beth. I'm glad that didn't happen. Rick's already been through enough.

[00:36:05] Yeah, I think the show takes a couple of pivots in seasons three and four where it could go darker and it chooses not to. For example, having Judith survive at all, I think is an optimistic streak.

[00:36:16] I remember thinking from the comic in season four when we saw the empty baby carrier, I was like, oh, that was the only way they could kill a baby off screen. And I was very surprised when she was still alive. Yes. And this with Axel as well.

[00:36:31] I think that was a swing towards let's meet TV rather than a dark graphic novel. Like Kirkman is a little too fucked up for us. Because also the one that always stands out to me is Michonne and the Governor where that goes to in the comic.

[00:36:47] It's the most disturbing thing I've probably ever seen in a comic book. And the weird result is that Michonne's grudge against the governor feels a bit one sided at certain points. You're like, oh, she really fucking hates him for like not that much of a reason.

[00:37:01] But it still tracks. Yeah. Well, I have. Yeah, I trust you're right. But I haven't seen it in so long. I don't remember the details. So yeah, be interesting to watch again. Darryl's kind of all over the place about whether to trust Axel and Oscar.

[00:37:15] He's like, yeah, I get these guys. I could be in there with him. They're not psychos. Well, should we let them in? Hell no. Yeah. I find the writing of this quite on the nose. It was fine. It was fine.

[00:37:28] But like when Darryl's like, I could just as soon be out there with them. I'm like, no, no, we know that. Like, you've shown us that you don't have to tell us. We know that. It was good to have the discussion there, I think. Yeah.

[00:37:39] And so Rick says no. And I'd like to think season one, Rick would have at least considered it, but Shane changed him. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And in the end, Oscar proves that at least he's trustworthy. He could have killed Rick.

[00:37:58] He does seem to contemplate that for a second, but he shoots Andrew instead. So I don't, we don't actually see it, but I think that earns Rick their trust. Well, Oscar and Axel are super lucky in a way because as soon as Glenn's like someone's

[00:38:16] cut the fences, Rick's like fucking and goes over to, I would assume kill Oscar and Axel, but the alarm starts and suddenly he needs them and Oscar knows how to fix the alarm. So they get a stay of execution there because they're able to help.

[00:38:30] And then Oscar gets this wonderful opportunity, wonderful opportunity, um, where he shows Rick who he really is in that moment. And I liked that they kept the moment of hesitation because that's real. He knows Andrew, he doesn't know Rick.

[00:38:44] Is it worth killing someone he knows to impress this guy who he's only just met? Is it worth killing somebody who was in the same situation as him? I think he makes the right decision. Yeah. And I think Oscar is so good.

[00:38:57] I'm so pissed that he dies when he does because that actor is, he's almost like too good for the role. Like, I don't know, I'm like, I would watch this guy do Shakespeare. He's great. Yeah.

[00:39:08] And all the prisoner actors used to come to the Walker Struckers, but he, I was always waiting for him to come cause I wanted to talk to him and he finally did come to one

[00:39:15] in San Francisco, but he, I don't know why he didn't come to a lot, but I agree with you. I was really impressed with him. He was just so great. I'm looking, he, it was Vincent M. Ward. I'm just looking to see what he's gone on to do.

[00:39:27] And I hope for good things for him because I don't know, he struck me as somebody who would be a good stage actor. But yeah, when I was watching it last night I was like, oh damn, I'm really actually pissed

[00:39:38] that we don't get more time with Oscar cause there's, it would be so interesting for him to have been a part of the group for a sustained period of time. He seems to have had a really good TV career just looking through it.

[00:39:49] Like he's in a lot of stuff and a lot of movies as well, but nothing, nothing big that I can see. Yeah. I mean just to wrap up the point about trust and trusting strangers and I'm really actually

[00:40:04] glad that Ross Gerr did get that opportunity to show who he was because it would be hard to know who to trust and the only way to trust people is when they earn your trust and the

[00:40:17] only way they can earn it is through actions and giving them the chance to earn their trust is risky. But Rick had no choice here and so then he got to see what, like you said, who Oscar really is and now he can trust him for a while.

[00:40:35] I also like T-Dog's point, they might have less blood on their hands than we do because they've been locked up. And I think he's raising an interesting point there about the relative moral debt of killing people in the zombie apocalypse and what it costs to survive.

[00:40:48] Yeah, T-Dog's deep that way. Yeah. Okay, what else? The calm before the storm. It's a nice day in the prison. Yes. They're moving the cars so they can get out if they need to. It's been…I looked at the timeline.

[00:41:07] We've covered about a week since we last checked in at the prison. You know, that's what Axel and Oscar say when they turn up, they've been clearing it out for a week. Glenn and Maggie are in the tower having a chance to actually be a couple.

[00:41:19] They're having a giggle about Glenn and Maggie being up there. There's a sense that it's… The mood is light. The mood is light, you know. Glenn gives the prisoners some food while they wait to decide what they're doing. They're planning to burn the bodies because they're talking about…

[00:41:33] Farming. Farming. Herschel comes out on his crutches. He's one tough son of a bitch. Herschel! That really contributed to the mood, just seeing him in his strength and determination. And Glenn says, can't we just have one good day?

[00:41:49] Rick and Laurie have this kind of look where Laurie's just like, I don't know…I would say maybe she's a bit like, I'm the perfect woman, I've helped Herschel here. I'm standing here. She's not thinking that, but the way it's shot, it's like, look at how repentant this

[00:42:03] woman is. And Rick's like looking at her. And there's this moment where you think, maybe there's hope here. Maybe… They're nodding at each other. They're nodding at each other. Maybe all is not lost. And then, fuck, here come the zombies!

[00:42:18] And everyone, it's chaos, but people make some smart calls in that Glenn goes to shut the fence. He doesn't forget about that. Rick's trying to get to Laurie. Herschel kills a zombie with a crutch, which is amazing.

[00:42:30] T-Dog notices a gate that's open and goes to close it and gets bit in doing so. There's a really sweet scene with T-Dog and Carol. You're not becoming one of those things. It's the pact, remember?

[00:42:43] So we can infer that they've got this pact that if one of them is bitten, then another member of the group will put them down. And yeah, T-Dog helps Carol and T-Dog, you know not what you do.

[00:42:55] How many lives were both saved and taken in keeping Carol alive that day? Who's to say? Maybe T-Dog sitting on the other side going, damn, I really shouldn't have done that. But I know originally I think Carol was supposed to die in this episode as well.

[00:43:12] And I've read a couple different things about why she didn't. Scott Gimple, who was not yet showrunner but was a writer said he fought against it. But in another interview, Andrew Lincoln said that Sarah Wayne Callies fought against it.

[00:43:27] Yeah, that's what I've heard is that Sarah Wayne Callies was like, you know, don't don't do that. And she was right. She was damn right. Maybe both are true. So like, I love that because I love Carol.

[00:43:39] But also I always wanted more from T-Dog and I think Irony Singleton is great. And now I know that he has had, he's really struggled to find more roles. And I think it's a shame.

[00:43:52] And so I just feel like man, I wish T-Dog would have gotten a better story, gotten more to do show to show us what Irony Singleton is made of. And so that maybe he could have had a better career after this or something, you know, I don't know.

[00:44:08] But if I wish it could have gone down a little differently. Like yeah, I think I wouldn't want Carol to be gone. No, I think a big critique I have of season two is that they wasted T-Dog.

[00:44:18] Yeah, he got nothing to do in season two apart from that meme where he holds up the doll and sort of makes the same face as the doll. Yeah, that was a real bummer.

[00:44:28] And he felt like Glenn Mazar was starting to pull him to the front a little bit. And then that's happened. Yeah, not good. Not good. Yeah. Anything else on that? I have some stuff on this too. No, go for it. You go.

[00:44:43] So I love how intense this episode is with just everything piling on. And the show always has the challenge of making the Zeds a credible threat because they're slow and dumb. This episode is kind of clever because it's a person, Andrew, using them, drawing them

[00:45:04] into this confined area where our people think they're safe. And there's all these nooks and crannies and stuff. And it was also kind of fun to make it a mystery of who it was. Maybe everyone kind of figured it was Andrew, but still they didn't show it.

[00:45:16] Oh, I thought Andrew was dead. I was really like, I was like, is it the governor? Is it Andrew? Like, I don't know. Yeah. Not now. Obviously, I've watched it before. But yeah. So I guess we see him grab a gas canister and he's got the deer carcass.

[00:45:35] Is the gas can for the generator to power it? Or we don't really know. That would make sense. Or he was planning to set fire to something. But yeah, I think the generator would make more sense. I was bummed to see T-Dog get bitten. And ripped apart.

[00:45:53] Yeah, it was quite dramatic. That was pretty cool. They find his body, which I'd forgotten. They walk past him on the way back, which is just like, oh, God, not nice. Just like them in the hallway, T-Dog and Carol with the lights flickering on and off

[00:46:06] and the Zeds approaching. And then she's out of ammo. It's like, I'm gonna have a heart attack watching this episode. Then he rushes them and he just runs at them, you know, and plows into them. And this is after he's already been bitten.

[00:46:20] And T-Dog had played football in college. That's where he got the name T-Dog, according to the wiki. So that's why he's like plowing into them. And then we thought Carol could be dead. But yeah, now I'm like, we don't see a body. She's alive.

[00:46:36] But at the time I was like, oh, yeah, I think I did too. But I think she one reason she really needed to survive is to make T-Dog's death meaningful. He's a hero. Yeah, I think so. I mean, Lizzie and Mika might disagree.

[00:46:53] Then Laurie, Carl and Maggie, they get trapped in cell block C, I think. And Laurie says, I think the baby's coming. So it's just like, oh, of course, of course, it is the worst thing. Then zombies shamble around the corner. It's like Jesus Christ.

[00:47:08] And then the door won't even close. But Carl just like closes it well enough. Then the whole thing in the generator room with Andrew, a really good fight with Andrew and Rick here as Andrew is like fucking fighting for his life. Here's feral like it's brilliantly done.

[00:47:26] It's good when then Oscar comes in and grabs the gun and everything and that whole scene that we already talked about. So great, thrilling sequence here. And just such, such hubris for Rick of leaving Andrew to die, which he clearly didn't feel okay about.

[00:47:43] He clearly had some doubts and it came back to bite him on the ass in a spectacular way. So yeah, and those final scenes with Carl on his own and Rick losing his mind like, oh my God, my heart, man.

[00:47:55] I could see getting to a point now if I was Rick, which he does kind of get to maybe not exactly this, but where you're like, no, I don't trust anybody new. And if anybody comes near me, I'm just going to kill you.

[00:48:07] Like after you keep since he didn't just shoot Andrew and then Andrew comes back in his wife ends up dying and is what we see that with Tyrese and Sasha and they're the other. Two people that are with them. His name is, I can't remember. Um, yeah.

[00:48:21] Rick refuses to even count and and serving them in the group. And actually that's a mistake because Tyrese and Sasha are great. But I forgot about that. Yeah. It's that question. Ben, I think. Yeah. It's that question.

[00:48:32] I think, um, Rick asked T dog whose blood would you rather have on your hands? These guys are Glenn and Maggie. I don't know. He picks on Glenn and Maggie's like they're young and sexy. But it is.

[00:48:42] I think that's a question that the walking dead forces into again and again. It's not, would you rather have blood on your hands? It's whose blood would you rather have on your hands because you're going to get dirty. So right. How do you want to do it? Yeah.

[00:48:54] You want to know that are good and that you've spent time with or this person who you're not sure about. Exactly. All right. That's all I got. What do you got? I'm the same. It's just, it's such a, I think that's a nice thing though.

[00:49:06] It's like a tight little episode because there's so much there. Um, in terms of notes, um, yeah, nobody hugs Carl. I'm still shocked by that. I feel just feel so bad that nobody is kind of, I think Maggie might have if she wasn't holding the baby.

[00:49:23] Um, I think we've covered all my notes to be honest. I've got some IMDB but I'll go after you've done your notes. So let's see Michonne. I think I did detect a Southern accent.

[00:49:37] Um, and she didn't do that later, but here when she's talking to Andrea, she says, I'd rather take my chances out there than stay here. Her voice is quite different. Yeah, it changed over time.

[00:49:52] Um, when Andrea tells the governor she lost her parents, but when she was talking to Amy in the quarry, Amy said, mom and dad, I mean maybe Florida wasn't hit so bad. Maybe it's better there. Do you think?

[00:50:07] And Andrew said, I think you have a bite meaning they're fishing. So she ignores it. So I guess Andrea just presumes they're gone, but I don't think she knows for sure. No, I thought the same as what she's just decided for her own mental health that they're

[00:50:21] going rather than going and checking. Yeah. Rather than going to Florida and checking. But they have all these herds that are blocking them off, I guess. I mentioned that there's some Glenn Mazzara interviews. I'll try to remember to put those in the show notes.

[00:50:35] There's also this is when I made friends with Bald Move, the Bald Move podcasters, Jim and Aaron. They did watching dead and a bunch of other podcasts. And I invited Aaron to come and interview the writer of this episode saying, Q Kim.

[00:50:52] And we did like an hour interview with the guy. So I'll put a link to that. That's amazing. That's not a name we hear much more in the walking dead. No, because he was one of Glenn Mazzara's people, I think.

[00:51:03] And when Glenn Mazzara left, he left with him. Oh, that's a shame because it's a well written episode. He's a great guy too. It was a good interview. I'll try to remember. I did that because it's a little vulnerable to say this, but I listened to watching dead

[00:51:19] and I thought they were so good. And they were kind of they were they were negative about the walking dead a lot, you know, but in a way that if you kind of maybe hate watch the show or you just weren't quite

[00:51:31] as into it, but it was it was that was the podcast for you. And I love that there's all these different kinds of flavors of podcasts for the walking dead. I love Chris and Jason of talking dead. They're a family. They're a family. Yeah.

[00:51:45] And I was a little intimidated by the bald move guys, but I always felt like instead of considering other walking dead podcast as competition, I should make friends with them. So I invited Aaron to come and interview. Thank you, Kim. We became friends.

[00:52:00] We ended up podcasting together about stuff and doing conventions together. And it was great. That's amazing. I like that. The connection. They're good guys. Yeah. So and then the last one or two more, we did an interview with Irony Singleton.

[00:52:13] We didn't do an interview with him back then, but years after this and it was amazing. And it was actually one of our most downloaded interviews ever. And it's episode 249. And that that link is in the show notes.

[00:52:23] And we interviewed Sarah Wayne Calley's briefly just before season two started, actually. So we didn't get to get her take on all these scenes. But I it's still, you know, I wanted to bring it up since this was our final episode. So that's number 43.

[00:52:37] And I'll put links for all those in the show notes in case you guys are interested. Yeah. Last note for me is last time I was mentioning stuff that former walking dead actors are

[00:52:47] in and I forgot to mention that Jeffrey Dean Morgan is in The Boys season four. Oh, yeah. And I've only a couple of episodes into that, but I've enjoyed watching him on there so far.

[00:52:59] And also I found out Tom Payne is in that Kevin Costner Western Horizon along with Michael Rooker, the Jesus actor. Tom isn't Laurie Holden also in The Boys? Yeah, she was in it in season three. That's amazing. That's right. So what do you got for IDM?

[00:53:17] I am DBM. I am DBM. So timeline wise, we're on day 302. Last episode we were around last prison episode. We were around 296. So about a week has passed. I am DB dive the scene where Maggie must perform a C section on a still living Laurie was so

[00:53:34] troublesome for actress Lauren Cohen that she nearly quit the show. It wasn't until a talk with co star Steven Yen that she changed her mind and continued the show. I mean, if she knew what was to come, would she have made the same decision?

[00:53:47] So Judith is played by six week old twin sisters Adelaide core Cornwell and Eliza Cornwell. Their uncle. So good. Their performance so moving. Their uncle, Brendan Cornwell also had a role in The Walking Dead. He played a Woodbury survivor in episodes three nine three ten and three sixteen.

[00:54:05] It's a family affair. This is the fifth highest rated episode of the series. This is as of February 2016 behind No Way Out season six nine too far gone for eight no sanctuary five oh one and thank you six oh three all after this all after this is yet

[00:54:23] to come. Best is yet to come. Michonne suggests to Andrea that they head for the coast and hopefully find a boat like in the TV series for The Walking Dead. Victor Strand is the only other character in the two zombie apocalypse shows to suggest this to their group.

[00:54:36] This fact is incorrect actually because T-Dog wants to go to the coast when the farm is overrun but I don't know about a boat though. Doesn't say a boat. He says the coast. Yeah. The death of two what IMDB calls Atlanta originals Laurie and T-Dog.

[00:54:50] As we mentioned, Carol was originally going to be killed off in this episode, but the producers decided to scrap the idea for the C-section scene. Sarah Wayne Callies drew on her real life childbirth experience, which she described as a battle.

[00:55:02] Sarah says Laurie always saw her pregnancy as a death sentence. The episode titled The Killer Within has a double meaning as a reference to the unborn baby being a threat to Laurie's life as well as the subplot involving the unknown person sabotaging the prison from the inside.

[00:55:16] They used a radio controlled prop baby with moving arms and legs for the birth scene. Oh, that sounds really creepy. The memory of the fallen is honored in this episode by the replacement of regular music

[00:55:27] with utter silence during the end credits and in the scene where Maggie and Carl meet back up with the group with a newborn baby, Lauren Cohen is actually holding a real six week old baby girl. Which twin we don't know.

[00:55:40] And but yeah, that's a real baby that she's holding, which I think works. I think it would be dumb if she'd have like a little dummy there. It would probably taken away from the scene a bit. But it looks too big, but that's. Yeah, newborn.

[00:55:51] The first time I met a newborn baby, I was like, what the fuck? They're tiny. I remember after Jenny gave birth and they put Nico in a little like incubator thing or not incubator, just a little cradle thingy under under a warm light.

[00:56:07] So I guess it is an incubator anyways. And she was just over on the bed recovering and the doctor and nurses are all with her and so it's just me staring at this new little baby. Like, holy shit. Was he tiny?

[00:56:20] He was so tiny and just all goopy and everything. Was he? I remember Bodhi had loads of hair. Did Nico have loads of hair? Yes, we both did. A long time ago, I always thought babies with hair looked weird.

[00:56:32] But then after that, after mine too, I thought baby bald babies looked weird. Little bald babies are like, eww. What's wrong with you? So only on The Walking Dead would someone die in childbirth and you'd be like, what a fucking great episode. Top five. Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:52] Only on The Walking Dead would killing your best friend from prison be the smartest thing you did that day. Infected News. I didn't have the other sound effect because we're in Boston. So I mean, we're in Scotland. We're in Scotland. We're not in Boston. So here's the news.

[00:59:55] Last time we reported that Andrew Lincoln starring in a new UK mini series coming up called Cold Water. He plays a quote repressed man who is shocked to find himself in middle age secretly raging at his life as a stay at home dad. So I can totally relate.

[01:00:13] The show is described as a dark, funny, twisted thriller, which sounds good. And quote, the series explores themes of identity, repression and the dark secrets that can lurk beneath the surface of seemingly idyllic lives. Which so up my alley if it's well done. I hope it is.

[01:00:31] But I'm bringing this up because it turns out they were filming right now here in Scotland in and around Glasgow where we'll be in a couple days. They are. Yeah. Andrew Lincoln was running around Denniston. So yeah, I'm optimistic he'll come to the meetup.

[01:00:47] I actually wrote a message to his publicist asking if he would come to the meetup, which will not happen. Oh, can you imagine if he did though? Imagine. And then second and last, Danai Gurira was interviewed by SFX magazine and she says,

[01:01:04] I was just joking around about having a Walking Dead musical on Broadway. And that's how they do it? On Broadway. She says, me and Gimple are actually chatting about it, which is ridiculous. He's just said we don't have the rights to it.

[01:01:21] I'm like, well, let's talk to Kirkman and see what he says to that. I mean, we're really largely just joking around. But Stranger Things have been done and I do love the theater. It's about how do you confine it to something because it's just so much story.

[01:01:33] So it really be how do you confine it to a good two or three hour play? So maybe that'll happen. Oh my God, that would be amazing. I've always wanted a Walking Dead musical. And the zombies would be like, rah rah rah.

[01:01:46] They could get Chandler Riggs back in his DJ situation. Yeah, absolutely. It'd be so good. All right, let's move on to Lister Mone's groans and grunts. Click click, I'm a zombie guy. And we have The Last of Us stuff for some reason. Okay, what do we got?

[01:02:06] First up, we've got Andy Fisher, Seeing Deer. Andy Fisher, Seeing Deer, Jason and Lucy. Brilliant, devastating, fear, conflict, friendship, Jim Jones, heroic, grungy, and so rewatchable. Oh, that's cool. It's a little like poem. Jim Jones refers to the governor, I'm sure. Yes, 100%. Good job.

[01:02:26] Dina Karatsis says, Husband blows nose during Laurie's goodbye to Carl. I look over to see tears streaming down his face. Quote, it's just allergy, says he. Yeah, the pollen's real heavy. Around this time of The Walking Dead. Alma Contreras says, Oh man, this one is rough.

[01:02:44] I may not be a big Laurie fan, but I didn't ever want her to die giving birth and then get eaten by a walker. Poor Carl having to shoot his mama so she don't turn breaks me every time. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:55] And they, it's so clear that, I mean, I feel like Game of Thrones did this. A lot of shows do this where you feel emotionally manipulated because Laurie was just so annoying in a lot of ways at the end of season two.

[01:03:10] And now they like made her sympathetic and Rick annoying just so we would feel worse that she died, you know? They're toying with us. Nick Archer says, This one has haunted me as I imagine it has for the vast majority of us.

[01:03:27] It sucks just as much every time. I'm a pretty hard nut to crack, but it feels like a three pronged attack. T-dog Laurie and Rick's reaction. I'm always crying during Laurie's monologue and then Rick's. Oh no. As he bends down to Carl opens the floodgates.

[01:03:42] Good luck with this one. Well said Nick. Oh no. Yeah. Carly Jackson says, I love Laurie's final words to her son. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. I think those words are truly embedded in his soul.

[01:03:56] In that last moment of the episode, Rick is so distraught and Glenn goes to comfort Maggie yet no one goes to comfort Carl. This poor child just watches mother die and no one goes to hug him. I'm heartbroken. Could not agree more with Carly Jackson.

[01:04:07] Could not agree more. All right. Here's a call from Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve and this is for The Walking Dead season three, episode four, Killer Within. I don't remember this. Why are they luring these walkers to this deer?

[01:04:23] Oh, is this the guy that Rick left outside for dead? Glenn and Maggie up in the guard tower. They were just up there last night. Darryl and Maggie's. I love Maggie's. So gross. I love Darryl.

[01:04:36] Darryl identifies these guys and he's like, hell no, I don't want them in here with us. Meanwhile, back at Woodbury, Michonne is snooping around and Rick's already. Steve's so happy right now, but this is going to go bad. I know, it's going to go bad. She's snooping.

[01:04:49] He's talking about planting crops and not doing it in walker rotted soil. Oh, that is a whole bunch of walkers. Oh, I forgot about T-Dog getting this early. Okay, Andrea, good by Merle's standards. I'm not really sure you would take his word about the governor.

[01:05:05] I mean, Glenn with the machete knocked through the head. That's great. So not Axel and Tiny. Wait, is that Tiny? Because they weren't there to activate the klaxons. This is tense. You know, like I kind of remember what happens, but still Lori's going into labor and Carl

[01:05:21] and Maggie and Lori are stuck, hiding from the walkers. Meanwhile, back in Woodbury, the governor is hitting golf balls. Oh, and Maggie's. Yeah, I forgot to mention that, but there's a lot of really sharp cuts or there's two where it's like chaos, chaos, chaos.

[01:05:36] And then here's the governor golfing and then there's another one of death, death, death. And then it's like Governor and Andrea having a drink. Yeah, it's like having a whiskey. Serene. Deliver the baby.

[01:05:46] I don't know nothing about birth and no babies, but is that much blood supposed to come out? T-Dog sacrificing himself to let Carol escape. Oh, and he just told her his first name is Philip. It's Andrea and the governor. Interesting.

[01:05:58] Well, they found the generators and there it is. The guy he left outside. OK, so he shot the other guy. Rick got the alarm shut down, but man, that was tense. Well, good prediction, Lori. But no, Carl, unfortunately, is not going to beat this world. Sorry about that.

[01:06:14] Well, there are spoilers, right? And did that really work? Cutting along the same scar to get the baby out? I don't know. I don't know nothing about birth and no babies. Oh, the baby's out. Oh, and now the baby cries.

[01:06:25] Oh, and Carl's going to be the one to. Oh, Rick can just tell from the look in Carl's eyes. And oh, Andrew Lincoln and Chandler Riggs, both so powerful right here. And even Lord Goliath. Oh, all of them. So good. Oh, all right. Wow.

[01:06:41] I think, Meg, you should have a T-shirt that says, I don't know nothing about birth and no babies. That's what leave me alone. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate you sending that in and, you know, being emotional about it. So good. So good.

[01:06:57] All right, next we have Nathan Eshelman who just says, who says, I just want to give a shout out to Irony Singleton. Whenever people think back on this episode, they think of Laurie guilty and rightfully so.

[01:07:10] But as a result, I think T-Dog's sacrifice gets overshadowed in people's memories. Irony came back to voice T-Dog in The Walking Dead Destinies. That's that game he's talking about where they let you do different things.

[01:07:21] And depending on your choices, he has a more prominent role in the Woodbury storyline. So it has been cool to see him get more time in the sun in the recent Walking Dead world. That sounds so good, but I've just seen so many bad reviews of this game.

[01:07:33] But now I want to see what T-Dog would have done in Woodbury. Yeah, I would watch a playthrough of it and not necessarily play it myself. So we've got Sarai Sieng who says, Hey Jason, Lucy and any special guests.

[01:07:48] I have a theory on how Michonne's pets could work. Since the ZA reduced men and women to their most animalistic and primal urges, it would follow that the Zeds would behave like animals in other ways besides hunger.

[01:08:00] What if the Zeds could detect the alpha, not the whisperer of the pack? When Michonne has these pacified Zeds on the leash, the zombies instinctually know they are to respect the wielder. I know it's a stretch, but you know, it ain't real. I like that. I like that.

[01:08:20] Decent explanation as any. Yeah, I like it. I have a special zombie sound for you. Zombie. Five minutes later, victim. Ah, zombie. Arrrr. Chomping sounds. This, of course, are the super secretive CIA zombie types that pop out of nowhere. All right, my friends, keep up the good work.

[01:08:40] Yeah, they're a real bitch. They happen in The Walking Dead. They just seem to appear somehow and then they start making noise as soon as you see them. Yeah, yeah. Their vision activated. Okay, here's a call from Karen Coppett. No. Fucky fuck fuck fuck. Man, that T-dog fuck.

[01:09:00] Always a classic. All right, Rachel Teal Edwards says, Fack, what an episode. I know you'll probably use the audio from Lori's death scene as the lead in for this episode, but I think it should be this exchange between Merle and Andrea. Why didn't we ever hook up?

[01:09:21] You called me a whore and rug muncher. Got away with words, don't I? I don't know if that's the core of this episode, but it's funny as hell. Yeah. And despicable. Andrea's worst idea yet is asking Merle if the governor is a good man.

[01:09:36] If only she'd used an ounce of logic. Hmm, Merle and I probably have different standards for what a good man is. Totally. But she doesn't and she chooses to trust Merle over Michonne.

[01:09:46] I think that's why they had her respond so well to his flirting, just because they wanted the vibe to be that she was trusting what he was saying about the governor. You know? I think things are all coming up Andrea at the moment, aren't they?

[01:10:00] She's got a neat place to stay. There's good people who like her. Like, yeah. She doesn't want to ruin it. She doesn't want to ruin it. Rachel goes on, maybe it's because she just, well there she goes, wants Woodbury to be a good place with good people.

[01:10:13] And she's horny. Also true. People get horny. But she just comes off as stupid, weak and unreliable. I don't agree with that yet, but I think it's coming for me. I enjoyed T-Dog as the voice of dissent in this episode before his heroic and gruesome departure.

[01:10:27] Not that I agree with him, but I would have liked to see more of him in that role. Same. Axel and Oscar do prove him right after all. There are so many incredible performances in this episode. Judith's burst scene is absolutely gut-wrenching.

[01:10:42] And Sarah Wayne-Calley's is so convincing, mid-labor and excruciating pain coming to terms with the fact that her worst nightmare is coming true. It still makes me tear up after all this time. Her death is just as tragic and heroic as T-Dog's.

[01:10:55] Of note though, I do find it odd that she says nothing about Rick. That's a good point. I never thought about that. Except he can't be the one who kills her.

[01:11:03] No, tell him I love him and I'm sorry if his baby looks like Shane or anything like that. Imagine if she did say that in the middle of like, I love you, my body, my beautiful thing. Also, I'm sorry if this baby looks like Shane.

[01:11:15] Ignore the big ears and please take care of my baby, okay? I love it. Lauren Cohen is incredible through this whole episode, especially the last scene as she shuffles outside holding Judith distraught, filthy and traumatized.

[01:11:30] Plus there's Andy Lincoln at his best, keening and falling over to the ground after realizing in horror that Laurie is dead. UGH. The episode ends and I take a deep breath because damn, that was heavy. But welcome to the world, Judith Grimes. Judith Grimes is here! Yay!

[01:11:47] Karen Shee, our friend, says Season 3 really is peak iconic Walking Dead. It's dirtier, grittier, and things seem more dire than ever, what with threats both inside and outside the prison. There were consequences to our characters' decisions and more than that, the fallout

[01:12:02] was actually shocking because there were no Spoiling Dead or studio execs in 2013 to spoil the show before it aired. No matter how many times I watch Killer Within, it's no less devastating. It's not just a sad episode, right?

[01:12:15] It's one of unrelenting horror and shock and of conflicting emotions about Laurie as we grieve her, as we realize all that's lost from losing her. I forgot that Laurie and Rick smiled at one another before all hell broke loose.

[01:12:28] I wish Sarah Mane Cowley's Chandler Riggs and Lauren Cohan got more awards recognition for their acting in this episode, andy too of course. Everything felt completely raw and real, harrowing yet beautiful with Laurie's final moments.

[01:12:40] What gets me most is when Laurie reaches up, wipes away Carl's tears and cups his little face in her hand as she says goodbye. It's when Carl pleads with Maggie, no, she's my mum, and after the flashback he takes a

[01:12:50] breath and crouches next to Laurie's lifeless body before dispatching her. What were his final words to his mother? Laurie may have been a shitty mother but she sac- Laurie may have been a shitty mother, inverted commas, but she sacrificed herself for Judith.

[01:13:05] It's a stance that's wholly different from season 2 episode 3 where she argued against bringing a baby in the dark and dank boiler room of a world. To me, she got her redemption. Yes, I've overlooked T-Dog's death, but so did the writers.

[01:13:18] It felt forced that T-Dog suddenly called upon God to protect him when we never saw him having any conversations with Herschel or the Greens about religion. Rick asked T-Dog if he'd rather have Axel and Oscar's blood on his hands or Glenn and Maggie's. Neither, T-Dog responds.

[01:13:32] Too bad it was he who shed, well, spewed blood. Of course, Carl mentions a pact when she and T-Dog are running through the prison. What's that about? I hope we, I hope we covered that earlier. I hope you're having the best time together in Scotland, Jason and Lucy.

[01:13:47] Thanks for taking the time to have your heart wrenched out by this episode while on holiday. Yeah. Hugs to Peter, Karen and David too. We will pass those on. Yeah. Yeah. Just looking back at Laurie, because she mentioned about Laurie being redeemed and all said and done,

[01:14:04] I feel like Laurie gets too much hate, honestly. I know Renee doesn't agree with that. But I think, I mean, they had a troubled marriage, Laurie and Rick, and I'm not convinced they ever should have been together in the first place.

[01:14:23] And I didn't like Laurie's response to Rick telling her about Shane, and I don't blame him for not wanting, maybe not wanting to be with her anymore, at least wanting some space from her. I don't think he handled that well at all.

[01:14:35] But anyway, back on Laurie, aside from that response, and it's such a hard thing, I give her a lot of leeway there. There's plenty more characters in The Walking Dead who are way, way, way worse than anything Laurie ever did, in my opinion.

[01:14:52] I think they, in a way, almost overcorrect this season. She's so repentant and so like, I'll help her, I'm a crap wife. Like, I don't know. Yeah. She's not the worst. She's not the worst. I mean, she's not the best. She's not the best.

[01:15:07] The way she did with Shane, she could have handled that a lot better. But yeah, yeah. Overcorrected, I agree with you on that. Okay, now we have a couple more calls. These are both about last week's episode. The first call is from Tiege. Oh, Tiege!

[01:15:20] Hi, it is Tiege from Wisconsin. Finally caught back up and I'm now ahead of you on the revenge. But not too far. Sticky. Sticking with you now. Two thoughts. One, episode three for season three, I hate, hate, hate these bottle episodes with a passion.

[01:15:37] And I can't shake the feeling that they did it so they would have to pay fewer actor fees per episode. I think they get paid per episode they appear in. I'm not really sure. That might be not true, but I like it.

[01:15:49] Just to remind us, because we've just taken a week off here. It was when we saw all about Woodbury with Andrea and Milton and everything and Rick and the gang weren't in it. What happened last week? There was no podcast, right?

[01:16:03] No one came in and covered for us, did they? Oh, we didn't talk about what happened last week only because we haven't heard it yet. Amazing. So, yeah, we should have thanked Margaret and Elizabeth and angry Adam. Yeah, I mean, they're intense. They're an intense bunch.

[01:16:20] But when they said they wanted to cover it, I was like, sure. They said they had lived experience and I was like, yeah, I haven't heard it yet. I can't wait to hear it. I hope it was good. We could listen to it on the drive.

[01:16:30] Okay, here's teach says now this. But I hate the bottle episodes. And I know Jason, what you're going to say, you're going to be like, oh, but what about clear? What about the cheese monger, the peacemonger, whatever.

[01:16:42] And to which I say no, because remember the two episode detour in season four where the governor meets Tara and eats macaroni and beef or whatever. Anyway, I didn't hate those episodes as much as everyone else.

[01:16:57] And yeah, I will stand up for these bottle episodes if they're good. I love them. But we don't have to agree on everything to each. True, true. Episode four. Here's my feedback. I'm sure you're getting everybody's going to call about how heartbreaking and heart wrenching Laurie's goodbyes.

[01:17:11] He must have called. And I agree. So I'm not dwelling on that, not because I don't think it just because I know you got that feedback already. Here's what I have to say. They were making Carl real quick to assume Laurie was dead.

[01:17:25] I saw her pass out from the pain. I don't I did not see them check for a pulse check for breathing like I'm not so sure she was she was dead before Carl took care of what he did.

[01:17:39] And I don't I don't know how I feel about that. That's just my one observation. Jason, Dr. Lucy, thank you so much for doing this rewatch. I am so excited about it. And your pacing is perfect because when I fall behind, I don't fall behind too far.

[01:17:54] Oh, Teej. Good day for me, Teej. I think she had pretty much bled out. But I could be wrong. She was still alive. She could have survived. She could have made it. Carl, I'm not dead yet. Wait, wait. Did you say something? Teej, I hope you're well.

[01:18:15] All right. And then one more call from Renee. Hey, guys, this is Renee calling in about The Walking Dead. This episode here, the governor is my all time favorite villain ever. Out of everyone, the governor to me was the best villain ever. He was psychopath.

[01:18:37] He was clearly unhinged. But I don't know. For whatever reason, I truly in love. I truly love the governor and I was happy to see Michonne. But I'm not liking Michonne's hair. I don't like her dress. Her dress look a mess.

[01:18:55] And I was trying to watch the episode. And I'm like, OK, girl, stop looking at Michonne's hair. OK, but I couldn't. I mean, they need to fire them and hire someone else because they even look the best in the ones who live.

[01:19:10] They look the best then and they look a mess now. They had King and Zekal's dress looking much better than Michonne's. So I know you're like, girl, why are you talking about Michonne's hair? You supposed to be talking about The Walking Dead. OK, so back to the governor.

[01:19:26] The governor is unhinged and he's a psycho. And I never understood why he had those heads inside of, look like different aquariums and all of that water, whatever the hell it was in. I never understood that. He's just crazy.

[01:19:42] And I guess for me with people, I'm trying to figure out, it's only been like, what, seven, eight months, ten months at the most, a year. Like these people had to be psycho from the beginning. And they just hid it. They just lived their everyday, regular lives.

[01:19:57] And as soon as the apocalypse hit, they real self came out. Because how do you just become that crazy? Just crazy. I mean, I don't care. I know his wife died. The daughter got bit or whatever happened. I forgot what the story was.

[01:20:14] But so you just become a crazy person. It's just like even with Negan. Negan went from being, what, I think he was a gym teacher or something to just being a psychopath. I don't understand that. I can't wrap my head around that.

[01:20:30] Like you have to be an evil person. And he was an evil person before the apocalypse. And you just couldn't be evil because it was laws and you can go to jail and all of that.

[01:20:40] Once the apocalypse, it was like, do what the hell you want to do. And you just allow your evil self to come out. Because these people are unhinged. Crazy. The villains on The Walking Dead are like super crazy.

[01:20:53] And I know people always say things about Rick, but it's like Rick did things for the greater good. He didn't do it just because he was a psychopath. Not to me. Rick Grimes is not a psychopath and never will be a psychopath. Never, ever, ever, ever.

[01:21:09] Not in my eyes. I never saw that with Rick. Did he do some things? Yes, he did. But again, it was always for the greater good. It was for the people that he loved. He didn't harm people just because you're a psycho.

[01:21:24] And they were psychos and the governor is definitely a psycho. And the governor, even when he was stabbing the people in the head, because Michonne and Andrea didn't know that everyone was infected. But he seemed like he was getting off on it to me.

[01:21:39] The governor, that's how I viewed him. And Andrea, she just do too much. Like, girl, look, if something looks too idyllic, that should have been a red flag. You should have known that something was not right and you should have listened to Michonne.

[01:21:56] And I'm never going to forgive you for not listening to Michonne. All righty, that's it. Talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye. I think one of the things about the show is it's about let's put everyone through hell and then make it even worse.

[01:22:14] And then even worse than that and see what they're made of. Right. And so some people who might have been fine in civilization get pushed to their limit and crack.

[01:22:23] But that said, the governor, that's one of my criticisms of the governor is because you know how I am. I always try to understand why people do what they do and try to get in their heads.

[01:22:35] And I feel like with him, I couldn't totally because he's just so. He keeps a lot inside. It's very internal. That's why he works so well in the novels, because you get the interior monologue that he's going from. And yeah, it's a different kind of reading.

[01:22:54] Yeah. So I'm hoping this time through we'll figure some things out. I think so. All right. That is our show episode 590. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. Next episode, we'll have The Walking Dead Season 3 Episode 5. Say the word of which I have zero memory about.

[01:23:16] It's a really happy one. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastgo.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts. We recorded one this week. We did. It was about food.

[01:23:31] We've got a little mini sort of and let it rip the bear cast where we talk about Scottish food with Jason, Karen and David. So check it out. We've liked here and there's none we haven't liked. Exactly. It'll make you hungry.

[01:23:42] Also, if you're watching House of the Dragon, I hope you're tuning into Dragon Cast. This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Danielle DeMint-Yost, who puts their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabasi.

[01:23:56] So thank you to Danielle, who's been so active writing in and just being a part of all the chats and everything and being really strong in her work. And her opinions and love it that you're involved, Danielle. We love Danielle.

[01:24:12] We're going to do a Zedhead show this month. Dina and Dodie are coming on. That's the Patreon exclusive podcast I do sometimes. The theme is character crushes. Oh, I like that. We haven't done that yet, so that'll be really fun. All right. That is our show.

[01:24:28] Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Carly Jackson. High five. We did it!