592: "Hounded" (TWD S3E6 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] What's the deal, Michonne? You gonna leap out of the woods one against four, all of us armed to the teeth, and you with just your little pig sticker? No, no, no, Michonne. Hey, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Karen.

[00:01:04] It's so interesting to have that in there. I'm Karen. Not the OG Karen. There's so many agendas that I've written that in there. This is The Cast of Us, episode 592. In this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, season 3, episode 6, Hounded. And as you heard, we have Karen.

[00:01:23] Welcome Karen. Welcome back. Yay. Thanks for having me back. This is Karen Shee. So you were on, I mean, the one that stands out the most is when we covered Beef together. I felt like that was an especially good episode.

[00:01:34] It was me and you and Karen Coppett and David, right? But have you been on some other ones? I know I've podcasted with you before, but it's hard for me to keep it all straight. We podcasted about Minari first with Lucy. That was great too.

[00:01:52] And then I think I podcasted with Ben and Randy and Penny. On Dead City, yeah. On Dead City, yeah. Cool. So this is the first time you'll be podcasting about The Walking Dead. Do you watch the show? I'm just kidding. Every now and then.

[00:02:10] I don't do like full rewatches like everybody does. Yeah. But I know you're a huge fan though. Yeah. Yeah, because, well, we're going to talk about one reason why you went to San Diego Comic Con that just wrapped like last week. Last week, yeah.

[00:02:25] And there were two Walking Dead panels, one for Dead City and one for The Daryl. We should start calling it The Daryl Carroll Show now. We can't just call it The Daryl Show. And so I really want to ask you what that was like.

[00:02:37] We'll have a segment at the end. I'm going to ask you a little bit about what it was like to go to those. I was jealous. It's pretty cool. But before we get into this week's episode, you mentioned that you wanted to talk a little

[00:02:51] bit about Michonne's pets. Oh, we're launching into that now? Yeah, let's just go right into that. Okay, wow. We're starting pretty heavy and strong. I don't even know if I know how to articulate this because I brought this up in 2020.

[00:03:08] I posted it in a Facebook group and a few of you guys responded, which I appreciate. Oh, I vaguely remember something about this. Yeah. Yeah, and I think I like bringing this stuff to you in particular, Jason, and to our group

[00:03:24] because I feel like we both come from a place of understanding and good faith. And you're somebody who's thoughtful and intelligent. And so I really value your opinions about it. Thank you. Because I know that you have different opinions.

[00:03:43] In this episode for Hounded, Andrea talks about, she questions the governor about brutality for fun. And she says the world is brutal enough, which ties into my misgivings about Michonne's pets because this actually started when I was watching the show with my friend for the first time.

[00:04:08] And we made it through season two just fine. We started season three and he goes, I really can't continue anymore because I feel like I'm really appalled by the way that Michonne's pets, the imagery of them makes it look like chained brutalized Black men.

[00:04:28] And he thinks that imagery is unforgivable no matter how Kirkman tries to justify it. Because I tried to push back and I said like, well, Kirkman's just kind of referencing Haitian culture. Where the Nambi culture comes from and how that's also where the slave trade came from.

[00:04:48] But he said it was like racially charged and in poor taste. And not even the companies are worried about what's right or wrong. They're just worried about losing viewership or, you know, making money.

[00:05:02] Especially since I think where I take, I started to take offense was that they commodified Michonne's pets into toys, you know, and made them like, you can have these brutalized amputated bodies on your shelf as toys. It just kind of like run me the wrong way.

[00:05:23] I mean, yeah, well, just addressing that part of it without the racial part. That issue exists in all of horror and zombie movies in particular, where you're watching a zombie tear into somebody's guts and seeing the intestines come out, you know, and there's

[00:05:45] all kinds of T-shirts and stuff like that. So on that particular point, I feel like maybe, I mean, I'm not saying that's not a good point, but it's a broad point, right?

[00:06:00] If someone is saying that the commodification of this is a bad thing, then I would say that applies on a very broad level. But anyway, I'm sorry I should have interrupted you. Go on. No, no, no, that's fine.

[00:06:12] I am going to just read some of what he said, not the whole thing, but he said, it's a real belief born of tragedy. Pop culture keeps fetishizing slavery for our voyeuristic entertainment, for example, Django Unchained.

[00:06:29] And I said, well, they recognize it because Merle actually references the irony of Michonne enslaving these two men. And he says, well, that makes it even worse because it shows that they're aware, but they're still passing off something serious with just a single comment.

[00:06:45] And we constantly see Black bodies traumatized in real life and in pop culture. And he thinks that it sensationalizes it and it desensitizes us to real life struggles of what that community endures. Again, on that point too, I would say again, on that particular point about seeing Black

[00:07:09] bodies traumatized, I think that also applies on a broad level. We're seeing all kinds of bodies traumatized, but maybe in this particular case, it's more relevant because there's just this, such a history of violence against Black people.

[00:07:26] So we should be even more careful about that than we are with other types of people. I don't know. Yeah. And it's worth noting that neither one of us belongs to that community, but I know that

[00:07:37] there have been Asian slaves brought to America too, sex slaves, indentured slaves. So like you said, any kind of body has been brutalized. I think the difference is that the show and the audience, when there's like really disturbing

[00:07:52] things in the show and in TV in general, we are in agreement that those things are callous and that they're bad. I think the show condemns things like murder, rape, and abuse as well. But with Michonne's pets, they're kind of passed off as something tactical or like a

[00:08:12] clever mechanism for Michonne to camouflage herself. I would say they even want it to seem badass and cool. You know, that's what they're going for. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the show condones that kind of imagery maybe.

[00:08:28] And like we should note that Kirkman wrote the comics when he was like 20 something. So I don't know if he had that kind of awareness. I don't necessarily know what I'm trying to prove by bringing up this point only to say that like, I can't unsee it anymore.

[00:08:45] And obviously it hasn't stopped me from watching the entire show. But if we're going to do a rewatch of this show, it's worth like pointing out its missteps and its honest mistakes to show that it did evolve over time and get quote unquote better and more aware.

[00:09:05] Well, I would say, I mean, she continues to do this later on in the series too. She gets new pets. And I don't remember whether they're black or not. No, they're not. They're not. Okay. Yeah.

[00:09:19] But I think A, to really give this kind of a discussion it's due, it would take a lot more time than we have. Yes. It would be a whole podcast.

[00:09:28] But just off the top of my head, my answer to that is, I think I remember when I read the comics and that was the image that I had those thoughts like, oh my God, is that it's kind of wrong. Like black zombies chained up like that.

[00:09:49] I did come into my head, you know? And then over time, I think I just forgot about that because it just, I got used to the idea. And I think it was pretty quick. Like, oh, that's not really what they meant by it.

[00:10:03] It's just that she was using them to be able to get through and she's this badass samurai character. So it was this badass thing. And I think it probably didn't have anything to do with race, but whether or not it did or not, I mean, it didn't, right?

[00:10:19] She didn't do, she just picked the people that were close to them. So in the story it didn't, but whether or not it's a bad thing to present that kind of imagery is really what's the issue. And I don't know. I don't know.

[00:10:31] I don't know what to think about that. You're making me think about it, but I guess the best thing I can say is if anybody listening has an opinion on that, let me know. I'm not going to say, oh no, this guy's an idiot.

[00:10:43] Why would he even bring that up? That's not how I feel at all. I'm like, wow, yeah, if a lot of people are offended by this or if it perpetuates something that shouldn't be perpetuated, then that's probably not a good thing.

[00:10:54] But then there is the side of me that's like, well, we should maybe just take it at face value that it was just in the story. This was her boyfriend and his friend and she used them and they were just going for this badass effect.

[00:11:06] So those are kind of the two sides of the argument, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I'm interested in what people have to say. And I just have two followups to that. As somebody who sold my own art, believe me, I'm on the side of creators and artists.

[00:11:20] And I think you brought this up back in 2020 that like, where's the point of censorship? I believe that art has the power to not only entertain, but to start conversations and to challenge the viewers or to expose something and call people to action.

[00:11:38] But I never want an artist to pander or compromise their work or to create through the gaze of another person. So I just think, yeah, I don't know what I'm arguing for here. But just to be, some of us are more sensitive and aware of this, I guess.

[00:11:57] And it's okay if you're not, if you just want your shows to entertain, that's totally valid too. I mean, I do tend to usually feel more on the side of freedom of expression and not trying to rein things in.

[00:12:11] But then when it's something like this, that's such a sensitive topic, and I, like you said, I'm not black, then I don't want to just discount that, you know? It doesn't feel right to do that. So that's why I want to hear what other people have to say.

[00:12:25] If nobody else thinks that it's a bad thing, then there's, I feel like there's no reason to even have the discussion, but at least your friend did. Yeah. And the only last thing I would say is we never got to Nigerira's own thoughts about

[00:12:42] it, but there's no way she couldn't have not thought about it, I think. Because she said repeatedly that she took this job on The Walking Dead because she was interested to play somebody in the zombie apocalypse because it paralleled a war zone.

[00:12:59] And in war, one doesn't think about identity politics or anything like that. And honestly, knowing Danai Gurira, she is outspoken, she's confident, she's fierce. If she doesn't like something, she will say it. I know firsthand.

[00:13:21] And so that makes me feel actually better about it, thinking about that, because I feel like she probably wouldn't have taken the role if she was offended by it. Yeah, true. Could be wrong. It would be interesting to hear what she had to say.

[00:13:37] I'm interested in if anybody else feels the way I do. If not, then okay. I don't know. No, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, let us know. All right, so all that said, let's get into the episode. It's The Walking Dead season three, episode six, Hounded.

[00:13:54] I'll read the plot summary. It says Rick entertains imaginary phone calls with other survivors wrestling with his failure to provide a safe shelter for the group. This culminates in a cathartic discussion with Laurie. I feel like there's a lot of editorializing in these wiki summaries.

[00:14:12] Prompting Rick to finally adopt responsibility for the baby. Daryl finds Carol alive in the tombs. The governor enters a relationship with Andrea. Meanwhile, he sends Merle to assassinate Michonne, but she escapes. The two later converge with Glenn and Maggie, who are gathering baby formula and ammo, by

[00:14:31] the way. Merle captures Glenn and Maggie and returns to Woodbury where he lies to the governor about Michonne's fate. Michonne arrives at the prison with the baby formula. Yay. Yay, Michonne. So what did you... When I first asked you to fill in...

[00:14:47] Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention at the top that Lucy's gonna be back next week. She's just been traveling right now, so that's why she's away. But I asked you to fill in. At first, you weren't so excited, but then you went back and watched it.

[00:14:59] What do you think now? How do you feel about the episode? After you read all of that, I'm like, wow, a lot actually happened. My initial thoughts were like, this could have been sent in an email.

[00:15:09] You know that meme that says this meeting could have been an email? Because I think it just extended some of the same beats from last week with Andrea and the governor, with Rick grieving Laurie.

[00:15:20] It's true that we go deeper into each of those situations, but I feel like the more meatier parts, moments come in subsequent episodes. But this one, like you said, was important because it moved the plot along. Our two groups finally converge.

[00:15:39] Merle takes Glenn and Maggie, Michonne's at the prison, Daryl finds out Carol's alive. So yeah, there's a lot going on. Yeah. I mean, I think this is moving faster than season two for the most part.

[00:15:53] I feel like season two had a lot of, like you said, just deepening things, but repeating emotional beats. This one, I feel like there's some shifts in there. One in particular that I'm thinking of, but I don't want to say it right now because it'll

[00:16:09] be one of my points. But I enjoyed it. I thought it was funny in parts, thrilling, kind of wrong in a way that was entertaining, and I did think it moved some points along. So I thought it was pretty good. It was good to see Merle in action.

[00:16:30] Yeah, I liked it. I'm curious what parts were wrong but funny. I mean, just the whole thing of Rick having these psycho phone calls is... He's never been this crazy before. That's all I meant. It's just a new level of, oh my God, he's insane.

[00:17:02] And it was kind of interesting to watch. And I think after you've watched the whole series and gotten used to how crazy Rick can get, this doesn't hit the same. It's like, yeah, that's how he is.

[00:17:18] But I think in the moment when we first saw it, especially if you hadn't read the comic, I would imagine, because I did. So I knew right away that these phone calls weren't real. But I really wonder how it hit people who hadn't read the comic.

[00:17:33] But even though I had, it's still at this point in the story, it's like, oh no. Yeah. Should we launch right into Rick and the telephone? Yeah, go for it. Okay. So that was the actual weight of the whole episode, I think.

[00:17:49] We kept on coming back to it. And I didn't read the comics until after season three ended. So did you know right away that this was a hallucination? I don't think so. I have the memory of a goldfish, so I don't remember what I thought.

[00:18:07] I would think you wouldn't, right? I would guess you thought he was really talking to someone, but I don't know. Maybe not, because how's a phone going to ring? Well, anything's possible.

[00:18:20] I think it was a cool device to seed tension and some mystery, if even for a few minutes. The viewer is in the same position as Rick, thinking that there's help out there, or maybe this is how Woodbury contacts the prison group.

[00:18:34] Until somebody mentions Laurie's death, then you're like, oh, he's just going crazy. The second voice says, it's safe here. This is Jim, but we don't know it's Jim at the time. No one's attacked, no one's been bit, no one's turned, no one's gone crazy.

[00:18:53] And when he said that part, it's like, who said anything about crazy? Why did you bring that up? So that was a bit of a hint, I feel like. But anyway. Yeah. I don't know how many times Rick says safe and safety in this episode.

[00:19:08] It's top of mind for him. Absolutely. Yeah, and before we get into when he finally talks to Laurie on the phone, I feel like this was also a great... It provided a great scene between Rick and Herschel.

[00:19:26] And Herschel keeps on praising him for taking care of the group, and Rick still can't accept it. He's like, it's not enough, it's not enough. There's somewhere safer. Yeah. Yeah. And Rick's... I mean, Herschel's so empathetic. Yes. He's in right away that...

[00:19:41] Well, first he says, I still feel my toes even though they're gone. And I don't know, maybe I'm reading a bit into it, but it's sort of like, I know what it's like to still feel something, but it's gone as Rick is getting these calls from ghosts,

[00:19:59] dead people. So I don't know, like I said, maybe that's stretched, but he understands that Rick feels this loss at least. And then he senses that Rick's feeling hard on himself for letting people die, so he's consoling him.

[00:20:14] You carried us, you didn't let us give up, you got us here. He's like, don't be so hard on yourself basically. So Rick didn't even say that, but he just knows Rick well enough to know that that's what's going on. Yeah.

[00:20:25] I think the way that Scott Wilson delivered that what was so perfect and funny when Rick says there's somebody calling me. And like you said, he's so empathetic. He could have just outright told Rick, you're hallucinating, but there's a moment of silence and just nods.

[00:20:45] And in nodding, it's showing that, A, Herschel's realizing the depths to which Rick has unraveled, but also it shows his grace towards Rick that he knows that he needs to work this out for himself.

[00:20:58] I think that's really wise and empathetic of Herschel and shows how he's such a patriarch to the entire group. So see, now I think you're probably right on, but I hadn't read it that Herschel just knew exactly what was happening. He probably did though, huh? Yeah.

[00:21:18] I mean, one thing that they did that I feel like was a bit unfair is Herschel picks up the phone and we hear static and that feels like it's misleading, misleading the audience. Nobody would hear that. That's true.

[00:21:33] That was from Rick's point of view hearing the static, but the phone was right up to Herschel's ear. So anyway, you think that Herschel just knew right away, oh, he's hallucinating, but I need to let him process through this. Yeah.

[00:21:46] Well, he offers to stay with him, but Rick said, no, I need to do this by myself. So he's like, okay. Yeah. And I think the phone is like the perfect, brilliant way for Rick to vocalize his pain and regret, right?

[00:22:06] He even brings up killing Shane and Andrew and Dave and Tony. And we see him justifying to himself why he had to kill those men. So it's a way for us to see how broken he is, but also that he's still wrestling and

[00:22:19] carrying the deaths with him kind of. And he says, I couldn't put it back together. I made a deal with myself. I would keep you alive. I couldn't open that door. I couldn't risk it when Laurie comes on.

[00:22:37] And I don't think he's only feeling guilty about her death. He's not only feeling guilty about like the disintegration of their marriage, but he's feeling shame and remorse that he actually totally shut her out in the past few months that she was alive.

[00:22:54] When he says, I couldn't open that door. I didn't want to risk it. I feel like he means he didn't, you know, like you said, he shut her out. He didn't tell her he loved her because then a little bit later he says, I should have said it.

[00:23:07] Yeah. But what was at risk there? I don't quite understand that part. What could he not risk? I think he couldn't let himself feel committed and feel love towards her again. Because why? I don't know.

[00:23:23] All the ways that we don't say I love you to people until the funeral. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I can. Yeah, we can all relate to that where you feel like, oh, I wish I would have said something

[00:23:36] to so-and-so and now it's too late because they died or just because they moved on or whatever, you know. I feel like it's just a little bit vague. Like, what could he not do?

[00:23:46] But yeah, he keeps saying, basically he's saying, I had planned to find us a safe place and then we were going to work on our marriage and I thought we had time for that. Well, how I read it, that too.

[00:24:00] But he was saying as long as he could keep Lori and Carl physically safe, it gave him, it was enough for him at the time and it gave Rick permission to stay angry and distant from Lori because at least he could offer her something like physical safe haven.

[00:24:17] Then he wouldn't have to wrestle with his emotions. Yeah, that makes sense. And the risk is just being hurt emotionally more. Yeah. Well, I like this idea of him losing his mind and getting these ghostly phone calls in trying

[00:24:38] to figure out the point of it though, aside from just something crazy and interesting is they're all like his main thing. And I've been saying this for a few episodes now is feeling responsible for people, especially the ones he cares the most about.

[00:24:56] And now that he's lost his wife, he's failed in this core thing that his main purpose, he's failed as main purpose and it's broken him. And now he's going crazy. And I think it's meaningful that it's the other people he's lost that he's hearing,

[00:25:12] other failures and that all the conversations that he's having with them are about him trying to find a place that's safe for the people that he's still trying to protect that are left because he's still got this purpose.

[00:25:25] How to keep everyone safe and ultimately about the futility of all that because the voices aren't real. And he feels like his core mission of keeping everyone safe is all fucked up and futile now. It's like impossible to fulfill.

[00:25:39] I think there's some part of him that feels that way. The first voice, Amy, when she says she's in a safe place and Rick's first question is, can you take us in? And it just shows us that he's not sold on the prison.

[00:25:56] Of course, that makes sense because that's where he lost his wife. But that kind of reminded me of Eugene talking to, what's her name? Stephanie from the Commonwealth later on that eventually led our group to them.

[00:26:08] And I think probably at the time it was in my mind to be like, well, no, I knew it from the comics. Maybe when I read the comic, like, is this another hallucination? Because of Rick.

[00:26:24] And then the second guy is Jim and he's asking, you could be dangerous to Rick. Have you killed anyone? And how many people have you killed? And that, of course, reminds me of the questions that they land on later on when they're bringing

[00:26:48] people in to see if they're dangerous. How many walkers have you killed? How many people? Why? And I always felt like those questions, I don't know if those are the right questions, but I think the fact that Gimple wrote this episode, Scott Gimple wrote this episode we're

[00:27:07] talking about right now. And then those are the, I think that's a through line there. And it's interesting to me that in story, Rick comes up with these questions that he really got the idea of from that time he went insane at the prison. You know? Yeah.

[00:27:24] So anyway, I just think that's funny. So he says he's killed four people. That's Dave, Tony from the bar, Shane, of course, and Tomas, the prisoner guy. I tried to find his total kill count throughout the series. And one source said 54 and another one said 68.

[00:27:44] So somewhere in there. But if you count the ones who live, and I've said we're going to start being okay with spoilers on that show since it's being aired overseas now in different markets. If you count the ones who live, it goes up to about 3000. What?

[00:28:02] Oh, because yeah, because of the thing that happened in the past. Because that one thing, yeah. Okay. We won't get too specific, but you know, kind of upped a lot by then. So Jackie's the third caller and she says that he should talk about how he lost his

[00:28:19] wife. I feel like all these things are his own subconscious trying to do something for him or tell him something and I'm like, what is it trying to do here? It could be on the positive side, just get him to process or on the negative side, just

[00:28:33] punishing himself. I don't really know. You know? That's a good. Yeah, it's a good question. I feel like it's both. Yeah, could be both. Yeah. So they call his Lori and they do that whole Dolly cam where the background is. Yeah, the Hitchcock shot. Like, oh, you're insane.

[00:28:48] Yeah. Yeah. And we're all turned inside out. And then he says, I loved you. And she says, I love you too. So I think that just means that Rick knows. Well, it's good to hear Rick say it and that he knows that she loved him.

[00:29:07] And she says, you have the baby and Carl and the others. And then garbled. Can you do that? And I think his subconscious there, this is just me being armchair psychologist like I

[00:29:19] do a lot of the time, but that he doesn't know what to do, but he really would like to know like he wants her to tell him. But when his subconscious tries to come up with something, it's garbled. Like I don't know.

[00:29:33] I didn't even read it that way. But that's that's a great way. What do you think? Because I think she kept on talking to him saying Rick, Rick. And he just hangs up on her after telling her that she loves him.

[00:29:46] I think that at that point he realized that he's going crazy. And so he put down the phone. But I mean, then he went right in and held the baby. So yeah, in the Wikipedia summary seems to suggest that he had this cathartic moment,

[00:30:01] which I think there might be some truth to that. And I mean, he it was a beautiful moment. He holds the baby, smiles at the baby, kisses her on the head. And you think, OK, he was able to process and come back to a place of sanity.

[00:30:16] But we haven't even gotten to ghost Laurie yet. I know. I had this whole, it was at best. I had this whole Kubler-Ross stages of grief, cycles of grief, rather, because it's not necessarily sequential or like a ladder. Yeah.

[00:30:32] For people, I mean, I'm sure once you start listing those out, people will know. What is it? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and then acceptance. It's an incoming waves and all couple at the same time sometimes and everything. Yeah. Yeah. You can move freely through all the categories.

[00:30:54] And we've seen him go through denial already, like taking his axe despite Maggie telling him no. And he had to see for himself if Laurie was gone. He wanted to dig her out of that bloated walker.

[00:31:06] And then anger obviously was last week when he was slashing all those walkers with his axe and taking his anger out on Glenn even. And I think now with the phone, he's at a state of bargaining because the subtitle here

[00:31:20] on this little graph that I have of the Kubler-Ross model says that he it's reaching out to others, telling your own story. And so literally his mind needs to hallucinate voices. Otherwise he can't give himself the permission to untangle the emotions that he has probably

[00:31:41] internalized for so long as a leader. Yeah. I mean, ever since season two, he's always been blaming himself for the group's losses. This is just him verbalizing it. Yeah. And this is kind of another point, but I'm going to go into it since it feels right.

[00:32:00] It's levels of needs. And I feel like, you know, I was thinking about how Rick is just wanting a safe place for everyone. You said he says safety a lot of times in this episode.

[00:32:11] And this whole series, The Walking Dead, is about how the world just got swept away and it's now a million times more dangerous. And it's all these people scrambling over what little scraps of anything is left, safety supplies.

[00:32:26] But then ultimately over time we see them build things up so they can relax a bit, have relationships, bring back some form of society and civilization and the things that all that comes along with that, like dancing and ice cream and whatever.

[00:32:41] So of course that brings to mind, you know, we talked about the stages of grief. Now let's talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which we've talked about on the podcast before and just for people who don't know, that's a psychological theory proposed by

[00:32:54] Abraham Maslow suggesting that human needs are arranged in a hierarchical order. It's often shown as like a pyramid and the idea is that you need to tend to the needs lower down in the hierarchy before you can have the capacity or the bandwidth to tend

[00:33:11] to the ones higher up. So at the bottom are things like physiological, food, water, warmth, rest and safety, security and health. And I think Rick is all about that level, fulfilling those level of base needs for himself and others.

[00:33:28] He wants to responsibility to keep people safe and secure, alive, surviving. He doesn't really, well, yeah, I don't know if he ever spends much time trying to facilitate much above that. I don't know. I can't think of any either. Above that are belonging and love.

[00:33:54] So that's like intimate relationships, friends. I mean, he tries to fulfill those for himself eventually. Esteem, his prestige, feeling of accomplishment. I don't think he ever cares about that for himself. Yeah, I don't think so either.

[00:34:12] I'm trying to cycle through all the seasons right now but I can't think of it. I don't know. But the governor is already helping people get up to these levels. Even though it's rotten at the core of why he's doing it, he is.

[00:34:26] Woodbury gives people a way to have relationships, friendships, esteem. That's why Merle's there. He's at this level, prestige, feeling of accomplishment. Above that are things like creativity, satisfying curiosity, finding meaning, that's cognitive, then aesthetic, appreciating beauty, discovering personal style. Self-actualization is at the top.

[00:34:53] That's achieving one's full potential, including creative activities. And then some have transcendence like spiritual, giving oneself to something beyond oneself, broadening perspective beyond personal experience. So just for cognitive, aesthetic and self-actualization, I would say these can be more easily possible

[00:35:14] in places like Alexandria, maybe the Commonwealth, or maybe if you're really skilled like Daryl or Michonne, you could reach these anywhere. Because you can feel like you're safe and you can express yourself more creatively in any situation.

[00:35:29] But then transcendence, I don't know if you could find that in the Commonwealth pre-Ezekiel because it's just not a healthy place. I don't know. But it's interesting to think about all that.

[00:35:42] You just made me think of, I think at Paley Fest, Steven Yeun was talking about how the apocalypse is a chance for resetting and a form of redemption for the survivors because you can move social classes precisely because there are no social classes anymore.

[00:36:04] So you can actually be who you want to be in the apocalypse too, even though there's harrowing things surrounding you. But like Glenn, he's no longer this pizza delivery boy who's just coasting through life.

[00:36:21] He can move and access different things because there are no barriers of access anymore with social constructs. Look at Daryl in this episode. He tells the story of his mother who drank and smoked in her bed and basically burned herself alive.

[00:36:41] And then we know from his story, if you piece together all the times he's talked about himself, that he was abused by his father or ignored, neglected. And his brother was his only male role model who was not that great and sometimes absent too.

[00:37:00] I think Merle went off to the military at some point and that's when the abuse started to get really bad with his father where he got the marks on his back. And then he eventually left and Merle and him connected, but they were just like drifters.

[00:37:12] That's where he learned all his hunting skills. They were scamming people, selling drugs and things like that. So he was basically ignored by society. He wasn't a part of society. He was on the fringes. He had to learn to take care of himself.

[00:37:26] No one took care of him. And now that's why he's such a great survivor in the zombie apocalypse because he learned how to take care of himself. And I mean, just what you're saying, it leads right into it that he became self-actualized because of the zombie apocalypse. Yeah.

[00:37:39] It's different. You wouldn't have otherwise, I don't think. Yeah. He mentions in this episode that he only went out to play with the other kids because Merle wasn't there. So he was always under Merle's thumb kind of.

[00:37:56] And now one of my questions was like last week it was Daddy Darryl and like this week it's also kind of Daddy Darryl or Uncle Darryl. Like what made him all of a sudden so soft when he was still lashing out at Lori calling

[00:38:09] her olive oil in season two? Well now he feels valued and a part of the group and nobody's keeping him under their thumb. And for whatever reason, I mean, when people are abused, sometimes they become abusers. Other times they work very hard not to be.

[00:38:30] And he was one of those, right? Like he told like in the Commonwealth with Judith, she ran away and then he told a story of how he used to run away into the river when his father was being an asshole or whatever. I forget.

[00:38:42] But anyway, he's just remembering his own childhood and trying to make a better childhood for the children in his care. And that's what I try to do. Not to get too personal, but I didn't have the best father figures. And so I was worried about being a father.

[00:38:58] I've said that on the podcast before, but anyway. That's one reason why I probably like Darryl a lot more after his full story has been told. Well not full because he still has a spinoff, but now I like him more than I did at the

[00:39:13] beginning just because of where he went. You know, beautiful, beautiful story. Yeah. I mean, that's what makes people endear themselves to Darryl so much and why he's still making AMC millions of dollars because he's the tough archetype, tough guy with a heart of gold. Yeah.

[00:39:33] And it's interesting too, like all this thing about him being this feral Darryl and, you know, just being the wild hunter survivalist type who ends up in the Commonwealth with a day job and a kid. I just thought that was so interesting to see what he would do.

[00:39:52] I think maybe if he didn't have to take care of Judith, he wouldn't have been anywhere near there. Yeah, I think so too. Anyway, we're way off track. Sorry. Where do you want to go next? I guess let's talk about Darryl and Carl then because we're already there.

[00:40:11] I don't have too many points about it. I just thought we already mentioned that he brought up that story about his mom dying in the fire. I think just the same, like, Herschel holding space for Rick to voice or to have catharsis.

[00:40:29] Darryl knows that Carl put down Laurie. I think he knows, but he still gave Carl the space to talk about it. That's why he shared his own story and was vulnerable with him first. So Darryl's his own kind of empath and, you know, Nurturer. Yeah.

[00:40:50] I mean, he's finding that now. We're watching him, what I was just saying, how he became a different person when he started to have children to look after and there was a fork in the road.

[00:41:07] Would he be like his own father or would he try to be what he wished he had? And that's what we're watching him do is be the kind of father figure that he wished he'd had.

[00:41:16] He was like it last week when he held Judith in his arms and named her Lil Asskicker. And now he's watching out for Carl. Yeah, he understands when kids have a hard time growing up because he went through that too. So he relates right away. Yeah.

[00:41:35] And this story also, like I said before, makes us understand his relationship with Merle that Merle kind of controlled everything. So now that Merle's away, Darryl starts to flourish on his own. Yeah.

[00:41:50] And even now on maybe a bit of a smaller scale, Rick is shaken to his core and he's lost it and Darryl's stepping up even that little bit more you can see to fill in while Rick is out kind of, you know. Yeah.

[00:42:07] I love how you and Jim pointed that out last week where Merle just got right to action and started going to get supplies for the baby. And then the other thing with him is this episode is he, I don't even know what they

[00:42:23] were doing, him and Oscar and Carl, I guess they were just making sure the prison was cleared and got it clear. And they find a Zed with Carol's knife in its throat. And I got the sense that maybe seeing that knife caused something to open in him that

[00:42:41] he'd been keeping shut, you know, to finally feel the loss of Carol right before he found her. Yeah. There's always a lot of great subtext with Norman Reedus and with Darryl because you see him like taking the knife and sticking it in the floor and just frustrated.

[00:43:03] And you can see there that he's thinking about Carol and yeah. And then he thinks there's a zombie in there, flings the door open and there she is. Yeah. And they're all dirty and out of it. And it's a good thing he didn't just go flailing in there.

[00:43:23] And then he carries her out and it's really sweet. And again, just knowing the full extent of their story, it makes it even more of a sweet moment. Seeing how their friendship flourished after that.

[00:43:40] And I think probably in the moment, I had this feeling like, oh, come on. They psyched us out. Almost like Glenn under the dumpster kind of thing. But now I'm like, eh, we love Carol. I'm glad she was alive. Yeah.

[00:43:56] Gimple told Looper magazine that there was some investigation going on about killing Carol. It got pretty far down the line. But I was pretty hardcore against that because I saw her journey for going from somebody under her ex-husband's thumb to being a warrior.

[00:44:14] And he said that he wanted to give Melissa McBride that journey because she had been so good up to that point. He also says that he tried to convince the writers to subvert expectation because the show is known for killing off characters.

[00:44:29] He wanted an instance where somebody was able to survive despite all the odds. That's cool. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, no. You made me like it a little bit more hearing that because I like that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that everyone dies all the time.

[00:44:46] Later on in the series, then you started to feel like people had plot armor more than you ever did at this point. Yes. I think they overcorrected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, after Glenn and Abraham and then Carl and the show just hemorrhaged viewers, they're

[00:45:00] like, okay, we got to stop killing people that people like. Yeah, exactly. I understand that. All right. What else? Let's talk about, well, should we go Merle and Michonne or Andrea and the Governor?

[00:45:17] I have a point about, well, I was hoping we could talk about Andrea and the Governor because I don't really know that. Yeah, I'd need your help in understanding a lot of this stuff.

[00:45:30] I would just say that I, like you, I understand where Andrea's coming from and staying at Woodbury. I think you and Jim went over the points and other people went over the points really well.

[00:45:44] But she mentioned staying in a meat locker for eight months with Michonne on the road. She was sick and almost dying and vomiting when Merle found her. She basically asks the Governor for a job and he gives it to her.

[00:46:01] And also, the whole time the Governor's praising her, flirting with her, telling her that she's capable as a fighter, which is something that she's always tried to prove to Rick and to Dale and to other people in Rick's group. So now she feels valued in Woodbury.

[00:46:19] For the very, yeah, for the thing that, and he's good at keying into how to motivate people. So what will motivate them and playing to that? I don't even know, like I didn't really process any of the things that the Haley, the bow girl said.

[00:46:34] She was annoying, I thought. I think that was just to show us that Andrea realizes that she likes the fight. Later that she says, like, I don't like that I like the fight, but I like the fight.

[00:46:50] Do you think the Governor actually manufactured that situation to put her with the bow girl so that she knew that Andrea would jump off and kill the walker? I feel like that's a bit of a stretch, you know, just because, I don't know. It's too much planning.

[00:47:13] I don't know, man. Well, now I'm sort of thinking about it because the stupid girl's like, yeah, I was going to go to the Olympics and then she's awful. And so maybe, yeah, maybe. I don't understand what the whole point of their conversation was, but.

[00:47:30] Yeah, I mean, I think it was just to have a situation where Andrea would need to do that. I don't know if the Governor planned it. I kind of think not, but it was so that Andrea would need to go down and get her hands dirty

[00:47:51] and realize, okay, I do like this. Yeah. I like danger. Yeah. And honestly, the Governor's flirting with Andrea the whole time. And like you, like I said, this show is all about the choices that people make under duress

[00:48:11] and even giving into our worst impulses or baser impulses so that she sleeps with the Governor. It's super icky, but I kind of like, it's like the logical conclusion. I think it makes sense to me that she would do that.

[00:48:27] Well, so with her story in particular and the Governor, I've been trying to keep an eye on when I start to feel critical towards her for ignoring red flags. And when I would think, okay, now I don't agree that you should just stay in Woodbury

[00:48:44] and believe in the Governor. And this episode is where that starts for me, even though I understand it. She reiterates to him, I don't like this arena brutality for entertainment, but she's like, but I get it.

[00:48:59] And so I'm like, okay, you're kind of ignoring a red flag here. But then later she admits to him, like we said, that she likes the fights, but she didn't like that she liked it. And she liked mixing it up with this zombie outside the wall.

[00:49:11] And I think this is maybe her flaw that there's a side of her that likes danger, including dangerous men. We saw that with Shane too, which I understand that impulse. I like exciting. I've been attracted to women who are on the edgy side.

[00:49:27] We all like things that are exciting, that make us feel thrilled, that push on our boundaries and stuff. But this is life or death. This is a life or death situation. And she's basically told the Governor, because she was so strongly against that arena thing,

[00:49:44] that I have principles and you go against those, but I'm ignoring that because I also like things that are exciting and I find you exciting. And so now when she's basically said that to him, he starts flirting even more. When he said, so how long has it been?

[00:50:02] And then he pretends to be embarrassed because he was actually talking about the whiskey. I don't think he was talking about the whiskey. He was talking about sex and he knew it. He wanted to bring it up because he already gave her whiskey last episode.

[00:50:16] And so then when he says, you don't have to be ashamed about liking the fight, like you said, he's praising her for liking this stuff. He's appealing to that taste for brutality in her. And I'm like, why is he doing that? I think it's so she will continue.

[00:50:31] I mean, I'm trying to figure out what is he doing with her? I think he maybe, and I think some listeners have said this, that she kind of looks like Penny's mother. So he's thinking she'll be a good replacement for Penny's mother.

[00:50:45] So he wants her to feel like, yeah, good. Let's play up that love, that interest in things that are brutal so that you could be with me. And if you start to see how I really am, you will still accept me and be with me, something like that.

[00:51:06] I think he's just manipulating her and putting her in a special class of people because he says that's why there are fewer of us or them or something. Oh yeah, making her feel special. Yeah.

[00:51:21] But I think he wants, like if there's an angel on her shoulder that says brutality for entertainment is bad, and then there's a devil that's like, I like dangerous, thrilling things, then he's going to want to build up the devil and not the angel.

[00:51:39] Because he's a dangerous person who likes to do brutal things and he wants her to be his wife, I think. So then I'm like, what about that woman? I keep thinking, what about that woman who was in his bed the first episode?

[00:51:54] And I looked it up and I didn't realize it, but I guess that was the same woman who gave Andrea and Michonne the tour of the town when they got there. Her name is Rowan. Oh, okay. That's what I read.

[00:52:06] And then she doesn't really show up again, I don't think. So was that just an affair? And what was the point of that? I feel like we're missing something or maybe they changed their mind in what they were going to do with the story or something.

[00:52:19] Well, later on, I think in the next episode, not to give away too much, but or step behind but Michonne calls him a Jim Jones type. And so cult leaders are so magnetic that all people will flock to them and he can have

[00:52:37] his choice of which women he wants to sleep with. And maybe he's sleeping with multiple people, not just Andrea. I mean, yeah, it just feels like an anomaly because we don't see him, as far as I know, sleeping with anyone else.

[00:52:52] And it does seem to me that he wants Andrea to be his partner, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree there or maybe it's both. Maybe he wants that with Andrea, but he also wants to just be able to sleep around. I don't know.

[00:53:08] I hope we're forgetting something and there's more about that. But then anyway, so I'm thinking to myself, given all that, do I blame Andrea at this point? And I kind of do now, she's going for the bad boy.

[00:53:21] Her super ego is telling her, no, I don't like brutality as entertainment, but her it is saying, yes, I love it. And so on one level at this point, she knows the governor isn't good for her, but she's thrilled by him. So she goes for it.

[00:53:34] And I do feel critical for at least not thinking, wow, Michonne really didn't like this guy. So now I'm seeing some red flags. Shouldn't I be really thoughtful and considerate about this?

[00:53:49] But instead she goes to bed with him and you can tell she's just jumping in with both feet. It's willful ignorance on her part. She's letting herself be a fool. I mean, like you said, her head is telling her one thing, but her emotions are telling her another.

[00:54:03] Yeah. And we've all been there, most of us, where we've gone with the wrong people because of how we feel. I'm just saying, so I do understand it. And who knows? Maybe I would be doing the same thing if I was her.

[00:54:15] But I also think the stakes are so high here. It's life or death, you know, and your friends was so against this guy that you would think that at least that would make you not just be like... Be more alert. Yeah. Just be more alert. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:31] I went back to watch episode three, the Woodbury episode. And there's a point where she confronts my shonen and says, I don't know anything about you. You haven't told me anything about your background.

[00:54:44] So at least people are opening up to her in Woodbury, I guess, because they're talking about the governor, how he wasn't particularly proud of his car or his status or his dog or whatever. So they're exchanging stories about themselves.

[00:55:03] And at least that pulls her in to feel more familiarity and stability with somebody, maybe. I don't know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, he's really luring her in for sure, making her feel special, opening up to her at least she thinks he is. Yeah.

[00:55:22] And even with the governor giving red flags, Woodbury is a visual reminder of something nostalgic and something familiar. And people pay a lot for nostalgia these days, or people pay a high premium for safety and normalcy. Oh, yeah. So...

[00:55:42] I mean, I always think of Woodbury as sort of a metaphor for America, where we're in such comfort, such levels of comfort, and that we have to have the biggest military in the world who are willing to commit a lot of violence in order to keep us safe.

[00:56:03] And there's a cynical look at that. But I mean, it's also just like, if we don't have that, then we can't have society the way it is now. So... Yeah. You know? Anyway. All right. What else? Should we move on to Merle and Michonne? Sure.

[00:56:24] I don't actually have any points about that. So I'm interested to hear what you have to say. Yeah. I mean, I don't have... I mean, it was kind of more of the thrilling part of the episode, and it was. Yeah. The action part. I thought... Yeah.

[00:56:40] I mean, the way that Michonne just came down and chopped the dude's head off, I was like, holy cow, I didn't remember that. Yeah. I didn't remember she did that. And I thought, wow, I guess she knows that they're there to kill her.

[00:56:57] It's a bit of an assumption, but why else would they be there? I mean, she's just gone on instinct this whole time. She's never had any hard evidence, but I guess it's like, yeah, why...

[00:57:06] Because what she did know is that when her and Andrea went to the gate and asked to leave and Merle said no and started him and her hawing around, then he talked to Martinez and then they opened the gate.

[00:57:17] And I was sort of jokingly saying, what did they say? And it was like, yeah, let her go and then go kill her. And that is probably exactly what he did say. I think so too. You know? And maybe Michonne kind of figured that out.

[00:57:29] And then, I mean, I read in the wiki that at one point someone asked Robert Kirkman why the governor sent Merle and his gang to hunt down Michonne. And he said, the governor's been a leader in Woodbury for such a long time, he's maintained the status quo.

[00:57:46] And I think the way he's done that is by not really letting any loose ends dangle out there. Getting rid of the National Guard platoon, that was a situation where there was a group of people

[00:57:55] that could question his leadership or show an alternative to the people of Woodbury. And the idea that Michonne would be out there knowing about Woodbury and would be able to tell someone about it and possibly bring other people there is something he just couldn't allow to happen.

[00:58:10] What I think is interesting about that is it's the exact same reason why Rick and Shane were going to kill Randall. Oh yeah, true. You know? Yeah. Well the whole time that answers one of my questions because even up to season four I

[00:58:25] didn't really know what the governor's MO was. Does he just want total control of the region or... He's hard to figure out. Yeah, because he's bulldozing his own place later on. I don't want to give too much away but it's a rewatch so I don't know.

[00:58:41] No, you can... Yeah, it's okay to say spoilers. Okay. Yeah, well I mean at that point I think once Penny dies, once Michonne kills Penny, his whole purpose changes. His purpose now I think is to create as much of the old world as he can and bring Penny

[00:58:59] back into it but then when she dies it's like, I want to kill Michonne. That's it. Yeah, good point. Yeah. I think all the parts with Merle I think makes his choice to go with Daryl later on more...

[00:59:15] It makes sense because he's willing to lie to the governor here so it just shows that Merle's in it for himself and he's in it for caring for Daryl. So he's not loyal to the governor as much as we think he is.

[00:59:31] Yeah, I think yeah that's second priority. I think it is a priority but it's not his top priority. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's interesting that Merle said they're close to the red zone and I think

[00:59:47] red zone just means an area with a lot of walkers and I think the prison and our people are right in the middle of the red zone. Yeah. That's where Michonne goes and finds the prison.

[00:59:57] I think it was really funny to see how he dealt with this young guy, Neil Gargiulio. Gargiulio. He's all freaking out. He's like, yeah, what's your name Gargiulio? I'll just call you Neil. Yeah, I love that part.

[01:00:08] And he said, I want you to succeed, I do, but if you keep announcing to the world that you're pissing your pants I'm going to have to smash your teeth in. Yeah, there's nobody that delivers lines quite like Michael Rooker.

[01:00:23] And then when Gargiulio won't lie for him and Merle kills him, I was like, yeah, you're dumb Gargiulio, but at least Merle had the courtesy of pronounce his name at least once before he killed him. But that's the worst thing we've seen Merle do, I feel like. Yeah.

[01:00:41] That's pretty bad. I mean, he killed a guy who was about to murder somebody else with him, Michonne, but still he murdered someone right there. Yeah. So then they run into Glenn and Maggie and I love that when Merle laid his gun down, Glenn did not.

[01:01:01] But it's like you had two guns trained on a one armed guy and still he captured both of you. I think it's because Glenn's hesitated because this is Daryl's brother and Merle was asking about Daryl from the outset.

[01:01:19] Well, also the last time Glenn saw Merle, he was on the roof waving his gun around threatening everyone. Yeah. So wouldn't that compel Glenn to shoot on sight? I don't know. It's Glenn, you know. Yeah. Nice guy. Maggie should have taken him out.

[01:01:32] I mean, see what I wonder because Merle says, hey, is my brother alive? Yes, he is. All right, you take me to him, I'll forgive everything that happened in Atlanta. Like, I think there's a chance he was... Sincere. ...truthful about that. Yeah.

[01:01:48] And Glenn says, we'll go tell Daryl to meet you here. And that's when Merle rushes them. And at first I was like, why did he do that? But then I'm like, well, maybe he just thought, I can't trust Glenn to do that.

[01:02:00] If I let him go, I may never see Daryl. Yeah. So maybe Glenn would have been better off to just take Merle to Daryl. But then, yeah, he grabs Maggie, brings them to Woodbury and tells the governor that, hey, I have friends of Andrea here.

[01:02:18] And from the looks of it, they got to be set up pretty good. I'll find out where. And another time, I just don't quite understand why Merle thought the governor would care about this and the governor does care.

[01:02:32] And why is it that he wants to make sure Andrea's people don't come in and try to pull her away? Or does he want to kill them all so they won't do that? Or does he want to assimilate them?

[01:02:46] Or I just don't quite understand why he would want to capture Andrea's friends. Maybe once we see future episodes, it'll make more sense. I think he immediately thinks leverage. This is leverage for me to manipulate Andrea further or it's a bargaining chip so that he can

[01:03:05] have, like I said before, total dominance of the area. Yeah, just wants more control. But to keep them there against their will like that, to kidnap them is so hostile. And it's like, if you've presented yourself as an enemy like that right off the bat, then

[01:03:26] it seems like you might have a little less, I don't know. It's, you know what I mean? Retaliation. Yeah, yeah. You're taking an adversarial stance when maybe you didn't need to. I don't know. But he did that with the military. He killed them right away. Yeah.

[01:03:43] And then just the only, the end of this, since it's kind of about Michonne too, is that when she shows up at the prisoner fence and Rick sees her there. And now, even though it probably wasn't intended, that just takes on a lot more meaning, right?

[01:03:58] Because it seems like he's almost like, ooh, hottie. In the next episode, you'll see him giving her a once over. But yeah. Yeah. So look out for that. That's interesting. Yeah. I don't understand the complaints. Halfway through the series, people were like, they have no chemistry.

[01:04:18] It doesn't make sense that Rick and Michonne got together. But you see them threading this through the whole series. Yeah. Totally. I always think they had chemistry. And at times it could be subtle. But Rick is a subtle guy about that kind of thing. So would Michonne be.

[01:04:36] But they both are similar in a lot of ways. And yeah, they just have this respect. I was rooting for them to get together. Yeah. I think the whole point of the Glenn and Maggie scene as well,

[01:04:52] not just so Merle can meet up with them and kidnap them, so Michonne hears them talking about the prison so she knows where to go. Because I think Maggie's like, get that duck for a child growing up in the prison needs a stuffed animal like that. Right. Yeah.

[01:05:08] That's why Michonne's behind the thing watching. And then when she gets there, she can tell Rick and everyone that their friends are kidnapped. Yeah. So do they ever reference Michonne showing up at the gates with the powder formula in The Ones Who Live?

[01:05:26] I could have sworn they talked about it. I think there might have been some reference later on. Yeah, I don't remember for sure. Okay. I know that they talked about the baking soda and spearmint, like Rick going to get toothpaste for her in season six,

[01:05:39] but I wasn't sure if they also talked about her showing up at the gates. Yeah. I think they did mention that, but like the first time I saw you, something about formula, something like that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. All right. I don't have any more points.

[01:05:53] I just have notes. What about you? I have another point. My last point, kind of like how we have this scene that's iconic with Michonne at the gates of the prison. This episode debuts an iconic sonic track, a music track.

[01:06:11] Just like there is an iconic scene with Michonne at the gates, this episode debuts the iconic track when Rick finally holds Judith and Bear McCreary titled it A Return to Compassion. And it returns again and again throughout the series.

[01:06:35] So I thought it was cool to give some examples of this leitmotif. Love it. Yeah. If you want to play the clip, the Return to Compassion clip, the first one. Yeah.

[01:07:27] That, yeah. You know, that makes... Because I've sort of... I loved Bear McCreary's work on Battlestar Galactica. He did the score for that. It was so good. And I was like expecting big things for him when they announced him for Walking Dead.

[01:07:41] And I thought he was good, but I think I've underappreciated him because now I'm realizing one of the great things about The Walking Dead is the emotional moments. And I think his music adds a lot to that. A lot.

[01:07:54] It helps just push you over the edge and get those tears going. Yeah. That's what a leitmotif does. A leit means to guide somebody's emotions or to guide. And a leitmotif is like a recurring melodic figure or a permutation of that melody.

[01:08:11] And it changes slightly each time depending on the context. It's arranged differently or it's played with different instruments or has a different rhythm. But every time it shows up, it's like a powerful sonic cue or like a shorthand to put the audience immediately into a specific emotional space

[01:08:32] or to think about a certain character or idea. So the second example I have where this comes, it comes a lot but I only have a few examples, is in season five when the group finally gets to the gates of Alexandria.

[01:08:49] And you'll recall that Rick's eyes are stern. His face is stern at first and then he hears kids playing. And then so his eyes kind of relax and he's like, oh, maybe there is hope here.

[01:09:06] And I also included a bit of dialogue between him and Michonne at the start of this clip just to show this is what the music is trying to say through its musical notes. Cool. Here we go. I know it's hard after it's kept you warm and fed, alive.

[01:09:31] It turns on you. So you can hear the kids. Yeah, I never made a connection that this was the same music. Same melody. And it's a similar thing. It's about like, hey, there's little kids involved here.

[01:10:27] You got to get it together because you got to take care of these kids and it's hope for the future. Yeah, exactly. But the sad part is when Negan firebombed Alexandria, all those kids died. But otherwise, no, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Maybe.

[01:10:43] We're going to talk about Dead City later. Yeah, so a lot of the characters had their own themes. Some examples are like Carl has his own theme that's played on a toy piano or like a glockenspiel to make it sound innocent.

[01:10:58] And it plays again during that flashback when he dispatches Laurie for the last time, well, in the boiler room. And he has that flashback where Rick says, I'm going to die, mom. And I think his theme plays to hammer home that about his innocence that once was.

[01:11:17] And now he's lost that innocence. He's forced to grow up. Glenn and Maggie also have their own theme that's played right before they have pharmacy sexy times. And it also reoccurs when Glenn proposes to Maggie. That's so funny.

[01:11:33] And then the last example is like Negan has his own theme. It's like echoing and foreboding. So the music tells us like right away that about Negan's dominance even before he opens his mouth or like makes any gestures.

[01:11:45] So you'll hear that this return to compassion throughout the series, and it played prominently in the series finale. So this is the last example where I have like the basic I think there's a clip that says like the basic. Basic melodic figure. Yeah.

[01:12:04] So listen for this basic melodic figure. Okay, so now we're going to hear that all throughout the series finale in the last few moments, the last scene of the series finale. They play this a lot. That basic melodic figure wasn't that what we just heard? Yeah. In yeah.

[01:12:33] Yeah. And you'll mean I mean in the first two examples. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that was repetitive. Sorry. No, no, I just want to make sure I understand what you're going for here. Yeah. Okay. So this is from the finale. Yeah. And there's four different segments.

[01:12:48] It's a little long. I apologize. It's like two minutes long, but the initial clip was eight minutes. So you'll hear a clapboard between the segments just me clipping everything. But these are how that basic melodic figure has been used in the series finale. Nice. Okay, here goes.

[01:13:22] You hear it? Yeah. That's when Darryl and Carol are talking to each other on the bench. Kind of saying goodbye. Yeah.

[01:14:45] It's when Darryl's driving off. I felt like I was listening to some really like soulful music and then getting slapped in between. Sorry, it was actually a golf hit. But yeah, that just makes me realize.

[01:15:18] I'm really glad you brought this up because I didn't realize that music was carried forward from this early in the series and it makes me really happy that it was. I don't even know how much Bear McCreary was involved towards the end. I know other composers. Sam Ewing.

[01:15:32] But yeah, but I'm sure they, you know, carried forward. Oh, you know, clearly they did carry forward a lot of the themes and everything. But it just makes me realize how much of a sucker I am for this because I know that's

[01:15:42] one of the reasons why I love the finale so much was the music was used so well in it. And I think a lot of times a very skilled composer will put in music that you don't even notice necessarily. Yeah. You just feel it.

[01:16:00] While other times it feels, I mean, it has to do with the writing being good too and you actually caring about the characters because when they're trying to force you to feel something that's not really there, then it's like intrusive and cheesy.

[01:16:12] But when you're just feeling it and it all works really well together, like I think it does here, then it's awesome. Well, that's why I wouldn't have been as good without the music. No way. Yeah.

[01:16:21] That's why leitmotifs work because they are supposed to be subconscious and subtly make you think about something or evoke something. It's interesting that you bring up Sam Ewing who kind of took over for Bear McCreary or

[01:16:36] at least brought with him towards the end of the series because, sorry, I have one last example that Sam Ewing incorporated some of this into the main titles for The Ones Who Live. And you'll hear the first half of the main titles. It's mixed differently.

[01:16:56] There's a different mood to it, but it's the same melodic figure. Yeah. Okay, here goes. Right there. I think that's where it ends. It's good because they figure out a way to make it not...

[01:17:46] Because it's very versatile because it can be comforting, but you don't want the main title of The Ones Who Live to be too comforting. But you do want it to be evocative of, hey, these are two people that we care about.

[01:17:59] And it's a little bit bittersweet, but also it's exciting and big and you can really play with it. Yeah. I love that it echoes stuff in the main series. And this is just an extension of, yeah, obviously a spin-off of the main series.

[01:18:17] I mean, yeah, it would be cool to do more of this sometime with Negan's theme, like you were saying, or the Glenn and Maggie Let's Get Busy theme or whatever. Yeah. I would love to... Now I'm curious. To do that.

[01:18:30] I would love to delve into more of the music. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah. Great. Come back and do it. Yeah. Okay, let me see before we move on if I have any notes that are all that interesting.

[01:18:47] Michonne figures out the guts thing on her own just because she was all bloody. Yeah. I thought that was worth noting. And then I love that Oscar finds some slippers and says, oh, that's what I'm talking about. And Daryl goes, what the hell you need a slipper for?

[01:19:03] You know, at the end of the day, relaxing. Yeah. It's like, duh. That's the kind of like only on The Walking Dead thing too. It's so funny. It's endearing. Do you have any notes? I don't have any notes. I think we basically covered everything.

[01:19:18] I do have one thing about Rick and the telephone again, but I don't know if we want to go back to that. No, yeah, if you want to talk about it, go ahead.

[01:19:29] Oh, so Herschel says to Rick, I know that you want to get away from here, but there's nowhere else to go. And I think Herschel may be talking about a physical shelter, but from all the voices

[01:19:41] on the phone, Amy, Jim, Jackie, and even Lori, they're saying that it's OK where they are. They're safer where they are. There are no attacks, like you said, no turns, no one's gone crazy.

[01:19:52] Is it because Rick's subconscious is contemplating how death is the only safety, the only release and that death is the only inevitable haven for him? I'm not trying to champion suicide or anything at all, but I think it's a peek into Rick's

[01:20:15] mind since he's overcome by grief at this moment. And is it like in thinking, you know, they're all away from death and at least those people are away from death and destruction right now.

[01:20:30] And it just shows like everybody at the prison right now has to like really, really consciously choose to live. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking they're saying it's safe here and it's like they're talking to him from the afterlife.

[01:20:45] So I do think there's at least a little bit of that in there. I personally think it's more about hearing from his failures of keeping people safe. And I think there's a lot it's more complicated than just that. But I think that's in there, too.

[01:21:03] The whole possibility of maybe we should just give up and rest in peace. Yeah. Well, they make that point with Tyrese's character later, I think. About what? It's it's OK to give up. Oh, yeah. OK to give in to death. Yeah. Yeah. Lizzie and Mika tell him that.

[01:21:23] Yeah. Ghost Lizzie and Mika. And then it's like, I'm not listening to you. You're crazy. Yeah. All right. Only on The Walking Dead? Yeah, let's do it. Only on The Walking Dead is a young couple's beautiful day dashed by a one armed man with

[01:21:39] a machete for a hand. I feel so. Only on The Walking Dead would someone tell the story of their mom having gotten drunk and burned herself to death as a way to comfort a 10 year old? I wouldn't even think about that. That's yeah.

[01:21:54] And then the obvious one only on The Walking Dead does Michonne have a large body of resources, pun intended, to write a bite or gram. Yeah. That reminded me of the White Walkers arranging corpses in a spiral on Game of Thrones. Yeah.

[01:22:55] Infected News. All right, time for some news. Not much, but we already mentioned that the Daryl or Carol Daryl show has been renewed for season three and will be in Spain. There's a couple of quotes from Norman Reedus, Melissa McBride talking about the show.

[01:23:13] Norman Reedus says, I couldn't be more thrilled to announce a third season and to be working side by side with a brilliant Melissa McBride. Season two is some of my favorite storytelling of this series.

[01:23:24] Watching Melissa shine along with our brilliant cast and crew has been one of my fondest memories playing this character. I hope you enjoyed as much as we did making it and we can't wait to keep the story going. So I just like that he's talking about Melissa. Yeah.

[01:23:41] Now she's going to be in it. Yeah, she said, I'm really happy. I'm really appreciating the new challenges for Daryl and Carol being so far from all they've ever known. What it means for them, what it brings for each of them apart and together.

[01:23:55] There's still so much ahead to unpack in France for the coming season two and a breathtaking finale. Okay, let's move on to Lister Mone's groans and grunts. Oh, click, click. I'm a zombie guy. Okay. Beth Piary says, I'm happy we're doing the rewatch.

[01:24:16] I had forgotten about the story of Daryl's mom. So glad Daryl gets Carol back. Daryl carrying Carol, Rick carrying Judith and Michonne at the gate. Three amazing women. Yeah. Yeah. Daryl carrying Carol. We didn't really talk about that, but I thought that was really sweet. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[01:24:35] Jacob Decker says, in the comics, Rick with the magical phone is great. I'm glad they threw that into the show. But with this episode, it's stale with Andrea banging the governor and his character just was blah to me. He was terrible with his Southern drawl.

[01:24:50] Wish they would have made him a crazy rapist like the book for conviction. I don't know what that means. Like an HBO show. Like the comic book. Yeah. Yeah. He was like so much more intense and just outwardly crazy in the comic. And honestly, that's horrible.

[01:25:09] Who would want that? But there is part of me that wished he was a little bit more like that in the show too. Yeah. Tam from Perth says, Hey guys, I started the rewatch with you and then just kept going because I have zero self-control.

[01:25:23] But I do listen to your rewatch pod every week. And I learned something today and guessed out loud. A Walker ate Lori. I mean, that would have been cool to watch, but I just assumed they buried her or did I just hear you wrong? Yeah.

[01:25:38] The Walker did eat Lori, right? Yeah. It was easy to miss. Like we said, it was weird and we didn't see the Walker eat Lori. All we saw was Rick going, presumably looking for Lori, Lori's dead body. And all he found was a Walker with a fat stomach.

[01:25:58] And he started to cut into the stomach. So from all that, it seems like the Walker ate Lori. And I think I remember reading in interviews, Nick Otero talking about that too. So we're pretty sure that's what happened, but it was kind of hard to tell.

[01:26:12] And I could totally understand just kind of casually watching the show and not even catching that. Yeah. Is it my turn? Paul from Steve Brown. Oh, okay. Thanks. All right. Here's a call from Steve Brown. Hello, Walking Dead cast.

[01:26:29] This is Steve and this is going to be for The Walking Dead season three, episode six, Hounded. And I guess Hounded means that they're hunting Michonne, right? And Michonne left him a message. Yep. Go back. And we pick up right with Rick on the phone with somebody.

[01:26:44] So Andrea does see the darker side of what the governor is doing with the arena, but she also accepts that it's kind of the way of the world. Oh, and we get the beginning of the three questions here with the person on the phone asking how

[01:26:55] many people have you killed? Oh, Herschel telling Rick that he talked to Lori before she died, things that she wasn't able to tell him. Is that true? I don't remember. Yes, it doesn't matter.

[01:27:04] I mean, whether it's true that she told me these things or not, I'm sure it was true. Ew, Walker guts all over Michonne. That Michonne Myrtle fight was good as quick as it was. Wow. A little bit of Daryl's backstory here that his mom died smoking in bed.

[01:27:19] Ooh, the truth about the arena. Andrea liked the fights, but she didn't like that she liked them. Oh, Merle just killed her. Julio that easily. Wow. That's right. They ignored Michonne because she's still covered in the Walker guts.

[01:27:33] More and more clues that about who he's talking to on the phone. Of course, I don't I mean, I guess we are spoiler here that he's talking to ghosts. But wow, more and more clues that the woman knows his name.

[01:27:45] All the things, little things like they're not dead. They're not they don't have walls, but they're away. The governor and Andrea flirting over whiskey. Michonne is watching Maggie and Glen as they're loading the vehicle. I don't remember what happens here. Is this where Merle finds them?

[01:28:01] This is where Merle has found them. Of course, Glen doesn't trust Merle. Oh, but he's shooting at him now. And I don't remember how this turns out. He's got Maggie hostage, though. That's not good. OK, so Glen gets in the car to drive and they show us

[01:28:13] the fact that the formula and stuff was left on the ground there. Got it. Merle's going to have them take him back to the governor, right? Oh, and Darrell spots Carol's knife in this walker. So he knows she's alive or suspects it anyway.

[01:28:24] Oh, and now Rick realizes he's been talking to ghosts on the phone. Merle almost got caught in your lie. Where's the head? Where's the sword? You're going to distract him with Glen and Maggie. Oh, I'm glad I didn't end my recording because there's Carol alive.

[01:28:39] Oh, and we have Rick's first glimpse of Michonne. On to next week. I love he's still moved by all this. Yeah. Listening to Steve's message made me just realize, too, something that hit me back when I first saw this episode but didn't this time.

[01:28:58] But I remembered it just felt like a Twilight Zone episode. And I think that's one reason why I liked it was something kind of different for The Walking Dead. And also, I don't know why I thought of this, but one thing I forgot to mention,

[01:29:10] you know, one of the callers is Amy and that's Emma Bell came back to, to, you know, do the voice for it. And I had a panel with her in Boston and it was one of my favorite panels.

[01:29:25] It felt like we were friends, like we'd known each other for a long time. And I always love when that happens. Sometimes it's the opposite. But yeah, it was really cool. And so I looked back and saw that I had published that as an episode.

[01:29:38] It was, I think it was 152, but I'll put a link in the show notes if anybody's curious of hearing that panel. Yeah. I talked a lot about she was in the Dallas reboot at the time. So we talked about that.

[01:29:53] I remember no one was lining up to ask questions. So I just started asking her about other things that I cared about. Yeah. But yeah, sometimes those are the most surprising, like pleasantly surprising that, you know. I had a good time. It's a cool guest. All right.

[01:30:09] All right. Yeah, I think it's your turn. Okay. Shauna Sullivan says, not my favorite episode. However, it is a pivotal episode for TWD. Daryl carries Carol out of her prison cell and moments later Rick happens upon Mishon outside the prison fences.

[01:30:25] A reunion and an introduction to begin the remaining trajectory of these post-apocalyptic love stories. Yay. Love this rewatch coverage. Thank you, Jason, Lucy, and guests for taking us back. You're welcome. It sounds like she's calling Daryl and Carol one of the post-apocalyptic love stories.

[01:30:44] And I think that's totally valid. It's platonic love, but still. Yeah. I think it's the best platonic love relationship on TV. But yeah. Of any TV ever. Well, I don't watch a lot of TV, but yeah. It's damn good. Yeah. I can't disagree.

[01:31:02] Chantelle Schmale says, hey guys, I really enjoyed the conversation you all had about Mishon and her behavior at Woodbury. While I understand how at that point some people could see Andrea's side of things, here's why I immediately trusted Mishon's read on the governor and the town.

[01:31:18] As she told Andrea, her gut is what had gotten them that far. Mishon had her eye on the prize, survival. Andrea had her eye on the pleasure, the sexy man, good food, and a soft bed.

[01:31:29] The governor knew exactly the type of woman Andrea was, horny, savior complex, ridden, mildly ego driven with a chip on her shoulder. And he exploited that. We will see more of that exploitation in the future when he does things like emotionally

[01:31:44] manipulating her by massaging her ego and telling her that her leadership is what the people of Woodbury need in their moment of fear. Mishon saw Andrea just as clearly as the governor did. That's why her behavior was so blatant, mildly aggressive, and almost over the top.

[01:32:00] She was acting out to try to make Andrea see reason and come back from the brink so they could save themselves by getting the hell out of there. I will admit that I wasn't in love with the depiction of Mishon at first.

[01:32:12] The weird accent and stunted cadence when she spoke was a turnoff. It was almost as though they originally wanted her to be the opposite of the elegant, well-spoken character she became by season's end.

[01:32:23] I will always hate the way she sounded as she laid out her plan to go to the coast and find a boat. She sounded so simple and uneducated. I'm so happy they corrected that in future episodes.

[01:32:34] That said, I really just want to reiterate that her behavior in Woodbury was the way it was in an attempt to wake Andrea up from her stupor. Thanks, Chantel. You know, when I talked to Danai Gurira early on after the season three midseason finale,

[01:32:52] I remember, I should go back and listen to that interview, but I remember getting this sense that she always knew there was more to Mishon than just this sort of distrust and everything that we're seeing here. And that she couldn't wait for us to see it, you know?

[01:33:10] And maybe that's just because she had already filmed the rest of season three and I think we already do start to see it later on. But I feel like the writers knew that too and that this was just her first storyline.

[01:33:22] So this was one side of her that we were getting to see. But I think they knew that there was a lot more there. That's my sense of it anyway. Yeah, I agree with that. Rachel Teal Edwards says,

[01:33:35] Daryl has been the highlight of these last two episodes, not just because he steps up as a leader, but also because of his growing character depth. I love the scene between him and Carl where we learn about Daryl's mother and get a glimpse

[01:33:47] into his childhood and trauma history. We don't learn much about his past throughout the series, but each time we do it hits hard and gives us so much insight. He treats Carl like an adult in the moment and not in a patronizing way like others have.

[01:34:02] It's a tragic and beautiful bonding moment. We also get our first big heartwarming Daryl Carroll reunion moment, which is something I'll keep track of for fun because I can think of at least five big reunions for them on the top of my head. They never get old.

[01:34:17] Sounds like they will continue into the Daryl show too. Jason, I was so excited to hear that it's coming to Netflix soon. I exclaimed aloud in the grocery store, I haven't watched it, which I know is questionable

[01:34:30] behavior, but I got married, bought a house and got a new job last year. So please don't judge me. That's awesome. I'm excited that you, I'm kind of, I mean, excited. I'm totally judging you for not watching it, but no, I'm just kidding, but I'm excited

[01:34:44] that you're going to get to see it. And I am very curious to know what you think. So I hope you write in and let us know what you thought or just write to me and let me know what you thought.

[01:34:53] Maybe you won't like it, but I think you will. We really did. Yeah. Rachel continued, she says, I was completely removed from the Walking Dead world, which surprises me because sometimes she gives the best insight from these rewatches. Oh, she's so good.

[01:35:07] Well, she got married, so she just took a break, but she'll get back to it. She continues, both Dixon boys are highlights of this episode. Actually, we get to see how different they really are. They've been apart for almost a year and free to make their own choices.

[01:35:21] With Rick and the gang, Daryl has been free to blossom into his best self. And with the governor, Merle has been free to be his worst. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Good point.

[01:35:31] The true nature of each man is brought into full focus in this episode. And with the information about Daryl's mom, we can start to understand why he has been so easily influenced by his brother and feel such an attachment to him despite their differences.

[01:35:45] Rick has completely lost his mind and Andy Lincoln plays insane so well. Like there's just no presence of mind whatsoever. The look in his eyes changes completely. It makes me nervous when he meets Judith because, yes, he's somehow showered and

[01:36:00] cleaned up, but he's so far from being stable. I can't remember how he comes back to reality, so I'm looking forward to watching it unfold. But finally, Rick lays eyes on Michonne and the epic love story begins.

[01:36:12] The scene between Andrea and the girl who sucks with a bow is so cringe it makes me ill. What's the female version of dick swinging? The governor shows his hand and tells Andrea how much he loves fighting the fight and how alive it makes him feel.

[01:36:27] No red flags waving for Andrea though, instead it's a turn on. She can probably relate though, she loves killing walkers, it seems to give her a rush. And honestly, she's clean and safe with whiskey in her hand and a buzz going

[01:36:40] and a beautiful summer day with a tall handsome man who probably smells really good. I forgive her in this moment. Yeah, spot on. All right, so before we wrap, I wanted to ask Karen a little bit about what it was like

[01:37:00] to watch the two panels, the Dead City and Daryl Carroll panel at San Diego Comic-Con, which happened last week. So which one was first and which one was second? The first one was Dead City. And which show are you more into? I know that you hate Dead City.

[01:37:24] I don't hate it, it's okay. You know, I only watched it very much like I used to watch a lot of TV, which is halfway paying attention or even if I was fully paying attention, I didn't get a lot of it because I wasn't podcasting on it.

[01:37:41] But I felt like it was pretty good and well done. And I just don't like revisiting Negan and Maggie and that dynamic because I feel like it's been done to death.

[01:37:54] And I did hate that they are trying to retcon it so that Negan actually didn't mean it or he felt like he had to act like a bad guy, but he was then would go back behind the curtain and fret about it. Come on. Yeah. That's such bullshit.

[01:38:13] So that part of it does kind of make me hate it because it's like, that's the core of it, you know, trying to change what he really is. And I don't like that part.

[01:38:22] And I feel like my speculation is that Jeffrey Dean Morgan really wanted to do that because he wants Negan to be such a good guy. I think that's totally valid. I think Eli Journet, the creator, totally writes in favor of Negan.

[01:38:41] And there are a lot of examples that I could point to, but it's going to take a long time. I just wish, I mean, if they would have like kind of in the comic had him own up to everything,

[01:38:53] not just some things, but everything, like especially how he treated women. He's never really owned up to that. Yeah. And then changed. Then I would totally be on board with him being a hero. But since they've tried to say, no, no, he actually wasn't what you saw.

[01:39:08] Then it's like, no. Yeah. I will say that there are elements of each of these series that I take issue with. And there are elements that I love so much, especially with Carol returning. That's exciting.

[01:39:22] Of course, that dynamic between Daryl and Carol is something that's always kept me watching the main series because that friendship and that relationship is so solid. It's like beyond romantic love. It's like, you know, a special bond that they have that I'm really interested to see.

[01:39:42] But like I told you, I kind of got turned off once they revealed that there's a season three because it feels like AMC is just giving Norman Reedus license to just travel Europe and do whatever he wants.

[01:40:01] And somebody asked during that panel, are there any plans for Daryl to reunite with anybody else from the main group? And they kind of waffled. And I don't think they were waffling because they were hiding a secret. I think they're like, no, there's no plans.

[01:40:16] So I'm like, then why? To me, I feel like, yeah, it's just not in Walking Dead's DNA to have an end point in mind, except for the ones who live, which really did and was good for it.

[01:40:32] But otherwise, I just think they're like, yeah, let's have some fun with this scenario. But hopefully at some point there'll be like, OK, it's time to start wrapping it up now. So now we do need to think about whether Daryl will meet with somebody else.

[01:40:46] They're just not at that stage yet. That's my optimistic view of it. Yeah, they will get there. And I do think that the Daryl Dixon show has like the best production, especially because

[01:40:58] you have French vistas and all the views there that make it so different from an American production. I will say Dead City interests me because I have such a love for New York City.

[01:41:14] And so seeing how they reimagined things in the apocalypse in New York City kind of excites me. But also Maggie's one of my favorite characters, so I feel like really attached to her.

[01:41:28] And that's probably why I'm a little more invested in Dead City than I am in the other ones. Yeah. And I like, yeah, I like her character too. Yeah. So did you learn, I mean, it seemed like the only solid and non-spoilery news that came

[01:41:48] out, relatively non-spoiler, is that Daryl's continuing on for season three. Did any details or insights about the shows other than that stand out to you? I think it's on YouTube, right? Because the panel is already on YouTube. Mm-hmm.

[01:42:04] And this might be spoilery, but Norman did mention something about the old crew came back to do a segment about the main show, about The Walking Dead. Oh, like a flashback or something? No, not like... The way I interpret it is like, you know, like the E.T.

[01:42:29] True Hollywood Story or something. But like without the salacious, like secretive part, I think they all came back to do like a retrospective of it. Because he was talking about how he saw a bunch of old crew members and how they were

[01:42:46] interviewed to like talk about the show. Oh, so it's not going to actually be on the show, but more like they'll show them being interviewed or something? I think so. I think it's like a special, like a special that might come out or I might be reading it

[01:43:02] totally wrong. But he looked around to Greg and to David Zabel, the creator. He was like, are we allowed to say that? Well, whatever, I already said it. So hopefully it's like a special Walking Dead thing retrospective that's coming out. Did Melissa seem nervous? She did.

[01:43:21] I was a little bummed that like she didn't speak that much, but I know that she's like super introverted and doesn't like going to those big events. She's anxious. Yeah. Yeah. Like at Walker Stalker, she did a couple panels, but she never wanted to and she eventually

[01:43:39] stopped doing them. I never got to interview her. I know. I wish I could. It'd be fun. I'm nice. So what was the general feeling? Did it seem like people were excited? I guess it was like hardcore Walking Dead fans there. Yeah. Was it full? Full audience?

[01:44:04] I was told it wasn't as full as it used to be, you know, at the height of the Walking Dead, obviously Hall H was full. Sixty, five hundred people fit in there.

[01:44:13] And I got in at 1030, so I sat through the Doctor Who panel and the Rings of Power panel, and then it got to Dead City. So each time they change panels, they don't clear out the rooms, but each time I like snaked up to the front.

[01:44:30] So yeah, the woman that I sat next to, we just chatted and she's like, none of my friends wanted to come to this panel, but I still love the main show so much that I wanted to be here.

[01:44:43] And then there's like a consensus that the spin offs aren't as good as the main show, but people are still so invested in these characters that they wanted to see and the actors.

[01:44:54] I think the cast is some of my favorite cast out of all the TV shows that I watch. So yeah, people were still pretty hardcore. Like, yeah, like I don't know if like, you know, we talked about how I'm not as big a

[01:45:11] fan of Dead City, but as far as the ones who live and the Daryl show, I don't know if I would say they're as good as the main show, but I really like them a lot. Yeah, I think they're great. It fits a Walking Dead whole. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:45:28] And they're good. I mean, I enjoy, I like, I don't like Fear the Walking Dead at all. I thought Tales from the Walking Dead was pretty good. I thought World Beyond was okay, pretty good at times.

[01:45:42] But the Daryl show and the ones who live, I think are pretty great, even though maybe they're not as good as, so you know, they're not all equal, but I think they're damn good shows personally. Yeah. I know it's all subjective.

[01:45:52] Relative to everything else that's out there, they're still pretty good. Yeah. Um, I will say my main takeaway is that Lauren Cohen is like super excited for season two. Like I've never seen her this energized and excited at a panel.

[01:46:11] And just like, you know, once Stephen Young left the show, it looked like there was some kind of energy that left her and she was just there at the panels and kind of sad. That's just my reading of it.

[01:46:25] I don't know if that's actually what's going on, but like here... Maybe you were projecting. Probably. I think so too. But like, I feel like she was like super excited to talk about it.

[01:46:37] And she said in an interview in San Diego that like, it's the most excited she's ever been on any TV series that she's done. And usually I would chalk that up to just like hype and like marketing. But I feel like she's sincere about it.

[01:46:53] And she said like, because she did, she directs one of the episodes this year. And she said it was so fulfilling for her that you could leave everything and not even air the show and she would be fulfilled for the work that they put in. Interesting. Yeah.

[01:47:11] Well, I mean, the plan is for Ben to come back and host the podcast when Dead City season two finally comes out and have, I presume he'll do rotating guest hosts again.

[01:47:22] And the best thing would be if I'm sitting at home going, damn, why did I let Ben do that? I should be... I wish I was on the podcast. So I'm definitely gonna be watching. I hope that happens too. Let's see what makes her so excited. Yeah.

[01:47:40] All right. That is our show episode 592. Thanks so much for listening everyone. Thanks Karen. That was awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Glad you brought the music too. That was really cool. But everything else... Yeah, it was fun.

[01:47:56] Next episode is The Walking Dead season three, episode seven, When the Dead Come Knocking, which is a great title. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com.

[01:48:10] And while you're there, of course, please check out our other podcasts. What else should we talk about? The Wrapping Up, Dragon Casts, covering House of the Dragon. There's one more episode left on that. I know they've been having a really great time with it.

[01:48:26] I think by the time you hear this, that will have already aired actually. Nice. Yeah. You should go listen. Are they doing Rings of Power, Penny and Anwen? Is that starting up? Yeah, I think they did an episode getting ready for the season.

[01:48:40] And yeah, they're totally gonna be podcasting about the whole thing. And I think there was a trailer out recently that Anwen was excited about. So yeah, it's coming up soon. I met Bear McCreary and bought one of his vinyls for Rings of Power. Nice.

[01:48:57] Yeah, there's some good music in that show too. So this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Nick Baraniak, who've pledged their support at patreon.com. Slash Jason Kabassi. So thanks so much, Nick and everyone else who does that.

[01:49:13] And everyone who does that, of course, gets ad-free versions of these episodes. So you don't have to listen to the ads and you get to help support the podcast. And sometimes they come out early. That's right. Yeah, usually with the rewatch, I'm on vacation right now.

[01:49:31] So I haven't been able to edit as quickly, but usually they come out a few days early at least before everybody else gets them. All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Chantelle Schmale.