593: "When the Dead Come Knocking" (TWD S3E7 Rewatch)

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The Walking Dead, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us,

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Lucy.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Lucy's back! Yay!

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yay!

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back. This is the cast of us, in case you forgot the name. It's episode 593.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 3 episode 7, When the Dead Come

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Knockin'.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Knock. Um, what, why was it called that? It's a cool title.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I was literally just thinking that and I thought I should have an answer for this.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in the shack they were right at the front door.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes!

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: That old guy's shack that Michonne killed.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess for Andrea her past is about to come knocking on the doors of Woodbury. But

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah, I think it's maybe about the cabin.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Death came knocking for the one guy but...

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh that poor dude.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that's a bit of a stretch. No, I mean the other guy. Well both poor,

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but the old guy.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The lab experiment. Alright, let's get into the episode. Do you want to read the plot

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: summary? Did I send that to you?

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Let me have a look. You did not but I can make one up.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, go ahead.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_05]: In this episode, um, the dead come knocking.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Come knocking. That's it. Here, let me read the one. This actually, ChatGPT made this

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: one up. It says, Glenn and Maggie are captured and tortured by Merle and the governor in

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Woodbury. Sigh. Glenn endures brutal interrogation but refuses to reveal their group's location.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, Michonne arrives at the prison with baby formula and is taken in by Rick

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and Carl. She informs them about Glenn and Maggie's capture, prompting Rick, Daryl, Michonne

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and Oscar to plan a rescue mission. I mean, that leaves out some details but it's enough

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to jog people's memory, I would say.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Would you say it's better than the Wikipedia summaries?

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This one was super short and even less descriptive. It wasn't good. That's why I used ChatGP

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: instead but sometimes they're usually pretty good, I would say.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll have a look. I'll talk to some people. I literally just got back from the big wiki

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_05]: conference so yeah, maybe I could shake some hands or you know, just edit it. That's also

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_05]: a possibility.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Just change it to the dead came knocking. I usually do use it but this time it was just

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit short. So what'd you think?

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I really liked coming back to this episode. With season three there's so many things that

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I've forgotten that when I see them again they make me very happy. Little moments, little

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_05]: character beats. There were parts of the episode I found quite boring. Like I don't…I find

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Milton's science experiments really dull. But there were other parts of the episode

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_05]: that I really enjoyed. There were other parts I found challenging. Like I don't love torture

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: generally, so that was quite difficult. But I do like Rick and Michonne.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I hate torture but Merle's such a fucker that it's easier for me to accept.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You know? Yeah of course Merle's gonna torture somebody. He's an asshole. He's a racist,

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: druggy asshole. And you know, I mean he gets more complicated this season and of course

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and I feel some sympathy towards him at times but for the most part not a good person. And

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: so if he's gonna be torturing someone then it's more like yeah par for the course with

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: him. I mean I'm not gonna sit here and enjoy it or anything but it won't be as disturbing

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: as when I see someone like Daryl or somebody that's supposed to be a good guy torturing

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: then it's like oh no I don't want that. You know?

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's fair. That is a fair assessment.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel about it.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I just don't like when we glamorize violence.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so weird because a lot of the shows I love are dark and violent but there's just

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: this line they I feel like cross sometimes where we're supposed to revel in it and I

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: don't like that. I like it better if there's someone that's good and they're being violent

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: then I want it to feel like they did it because it was necessary not because they thought

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it was cool or something.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_05]: There's one exception for me in this episode to that rule but generally I agree with you.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh do you want to say it now?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah but I mean thinking about it I think you're talking about violence against other

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_05]: humans rather than violence against zombies.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I am but now I'm even more intrigued to know what the heck you're talking about.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh Glenn's scene. Glenn taking down that Zed.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh that was fucking badass!

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_05]: That is so cool and I remember really vividly reading an article about this at the time

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_05]: about the power of having Glenn in that scene and how it moved Steven Yeun as a Korean American

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: actor into a more action hero mode or like it was something I'm sure it was about embracing

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I think the article called Asian anger which I think you know that's a bit you know it's

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_05]: like saying black jobs.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a loaded term.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a loaded term but the article was very much about it reminded me a lot actually of

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_05]: what we go on to see in him doing beef and the kind of rage of that particular series.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Just having someone who's Asian where there maybe there's been a lot of stereotypical

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: portrayals of what an Asian is.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean Bruce Lee's in there.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of bucking that back in the 70s but anyway then you get to see someone just playing who

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: happens to be Asian but playing a full character with all different shades of humanity is cool.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's one of the best zombie kills of the show I think.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so good.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so good.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_05]: That's violence I can get on board with.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah me too absolutely and that's one thing about zombies that's interesting you know

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you play video games there suddenly were like zombie add-ons to a bunch of these like

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: war games and stuff and that sort of it's interesting because it gives you license to

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: feel good about violence because they're just monsters but you're really just it does

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: feel a little bit disturbing to me sometimes if you see Call of Duty and you're just blowing

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: all these people away but they're zombies so it doesn't matter.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But just put that aside I mean yeah I agree with you totally that scene is just so cool

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's I think one of Glenn's standout scenes of the whole series which is saying a lot

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because he's one of my favorite characters you know.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_05]: But he just absolutely.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I knew when I figured out oh this is that episode that's what got me excited

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to watch it again.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The one where he breaks the chair apart and fights the zombie with it.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh and that moment where he just like roars at the end of it like oh it's just so good.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh I loved it.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: When it's all that it was so good because this room is it's like a dungeon with this

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: like rough-hewn stone on the side and dimly lit and and all like just bunch of detritus

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in there.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just perfect.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The staging of it everything was perfect about the scene and then what I love about that

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: moment in particular you see this badass fight and then it's over and it's quiet just for

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: a beat and then he screams.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I had to get that out.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Just to get that tension out it's so good.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I love it.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I love it.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah no I love that.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: All right so we're doing something different this time.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We might try this for a little while just to sort of try and experiment and also ease

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the load a little bit on me and Lucy.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're trying where only one of us is like fully prepared with organized notes and the

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: other one would I guess just we'll see how it goes but just give like color commentary.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So this week is my week.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Every week we're gonna make up stuff that didn't happen in the show.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all we're gonna talk about.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Haha.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna test you later.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll add a scene and see if you recognize that it was bullshit.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: No we're not doing that.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean we might.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I might.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You might.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I could see that.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just gonna go through my points and you just chime in whenever.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's do it.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So Merle and Glenn.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We just talked about it.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Exciting, thrilling, captivating.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Great acting by both actors.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Definitely.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I appreciate Rooker more now than I did back then.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just having so much fun with it.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And one thing I really like, it's weird to say you like this, I don't like racism at

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: all.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: He uses another slur for T-Dog.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You really do.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to say it.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't like that.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But what I like about it is they don't soften Merle.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like they're trying to soften Negan by saying, oh that stuff he did back then

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: he didn't really mean it.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just a facade.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But with Merle, they're keeping him Merle.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I appreciate that.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean he's a despicable fucking person and he's owning it.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And Rooker's in there owning it and just playing it to the hilt.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I admire him for that.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_05]: He's the perfect actor for that.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_05]: He just sells it.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean he added all that in.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, I brought my own colorful swear words from the 1950s.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just kidding.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So he says to Glenn, you don't even know why you're here, do you?

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't mean you no harm.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I lowered my gun but you raised yours.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And like I was saying last week with Karen, she…

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Who was brilliant by the way.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she was good.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She's getting compliments too if you're listening to this, Karen.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You've gotten some compliments.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_05]: As was Jim.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel I should also say Jim was very good at enjoying listening.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I always enjoy being a listener again.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_05]: What can I say?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm still a fan.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's fun.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have to drop out on one of these and just be able to listen.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I kind of believe Merle…

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I was saying last week that maybe if Glenn would have lowered his gun too then

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: things would have gone differently.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think…

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was trying to figure out actually, you know, Merle found Michonne and Andrea

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and he also found Glenn and Maggie.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Michonne and Andrea got the red carpet treatment but Glenn and Maggie get captured and tortured

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and interrogated.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's probably a bunch of different complicated reasons why, but I think the

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: main reason could just be as simple as the fact that Glenn kept his gun up when Merle

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: lowered his.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It could be.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Could be a bit of that.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_05]: You know?

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Could be a bit of racism.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Could be a bit of resentment.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Who's to say?

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, it could be racism but Michonne is black and she's the one that he brought

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in without any trouble.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean then he tried to kill her later.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, I'm just trying to figure out why the two groups…

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, I mean, I don't know.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Did Merle know that the governor's looking for a blonde mom for Penny?

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_05]: It was on his to-do list for the day.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Find blonde mom.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Be nice to her.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Be nice to her.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Bring her in.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Need wife.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Sad face.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, let's see.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't want to get too far off on that because we're here…

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, he's still…

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He's talking about what happened on the roof in Atlanta.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, he's like…

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He's holding a grudge about that.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Takes no responsibility for it himself even though he was high and waving his gun around

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and threatening everyone.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't think Merle's ever really taken responsibility for anything, has he?

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Not one damn thing.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Glenn tells him that T-Dog died and he gets right down in Glenn's face and says, well,

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope he went slow.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that was nasty.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_05]: That was so nasty.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: It was nasty.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, ooh, shit.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You dick.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But he's good though.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He's good.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, he's good.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so Merle.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Like if he'd been like, oh man, I really wanted to see him to extend a hand of forgiveness,

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have been like, what?

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you?

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Or even if he'd said…

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Because he was just calling him a slur and then Glenn says he died.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And if he'd said, oh man, I'm really sorry about that, then that wouldn't be like Merle

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: at all.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Then he rubs his knife hand around Glenn's throat and lips and asks if it feels good when

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Maggie touches him there.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't remember all this at all.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, horrible.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So creepy.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So fucked up.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And Maggie can hear it kind of from the other room.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You hear Glenn screaming and stuff.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just trying to find Daryl and learn where the camp is.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Glenn headbutts him.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like how Merle seemed to kind of admire him for that.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's in character.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You got spunk.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then but then he starts punching him.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And one slight like departmental suspension of disbelief about all this is Glenn is lucky

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that Merle didn't start cutting off fingers or something, especially since Merle lost his

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: hand and might feel like he's owed a body part or something like that.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I think I remember at the time worrying that they were going to take Glenn's hand because

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05]: of what happens to Rick in the comics.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I remember just being like, oh, will they do this?

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. You know, we've kind of already been doing this, but I want to make it official

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that while we're doing this rewatch, we're just going to talk about the comic and spoil

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: anything whenever we feel like it.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. If you don't want that, if we get enough listeners saying no, no, no, no, no,

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: then maybe we'll reconsider.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's just been coming up a lot and I want to be able to talk about it.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, like, you guys are OK with that.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not like the ones who live were like, it wasn't available everywhere.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_05]: You can read the comic.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. It's been around for 20 years now.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been around for a while now.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think people know, but as soon as they went into Woodbury, it was Rick and Michonne

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and somebody else.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget who. And the governor captured them, chopped Rick's hand off.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Michonne, I think, bit his ear.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he took Michonne.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And well, we'll I'll get to that part later.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really bad. So.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But here we come back to Merle and Glenn.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Some time has passed. It's clear Merle's been torturing him because he's bloody and

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: bruised. And I think the only two torture scenes in the show up to now are with Daryl

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and Merle. Yeah.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting. The two torture brothers.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And Glenn says, you can't take us all.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: There's too many of us.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And Merle says there ain't a pair of nuts between the whole pussy, Ladia.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So charming.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So delightful.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm a groupie, why don't you?

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And Stephen Yeun is so great.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just bloody and bruised.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like I was just picturing Glenn in the comics.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: There must have been scenes like this with Glenn.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: But then he fucks it up.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Who does?

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Glenn by mentioning Andrew.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know. Yeah.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And Merle's like, oh really?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But then you see Glenn realize, oh, I think he knows something.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Then Merle brings the zombie in and, all right, I want you to imagine how I felt on

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that roof. One hand losing blood, walkers chomping down on me every step of the way.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Last chance. Where's your group?

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the fight, which we already talked about.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just love how he uses the environment, the mattress spring as a barrier with the

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: zombie reaching through, breaking the chair, sticking it through the head with a chair

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: leg or something and then screaming out after.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We kind of already talked about that.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's just such a great scene.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a lot of deep things to say about it, but I loved it.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_05]: It is one of those where you're just like, it's just good.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, the rest of the episode I thought was really good too.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I love the Milton stuff personally.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But this was my favorite part.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I do and I don't.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_05]: I think like it's it's slow.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_05]: I think I like it less because I know that ultimately it leads nowhere, both in terms

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: of the show and Milton's character.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Like I actually would have.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I actually really like Milton and I really like what he brings to the show.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think in lots of ways he's kind of a proto Eugene in the show.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Like he's a much more believable Eugene in a lot of ways.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. There's something about those scenes.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. I'm just finding them frustrating on a rewatch.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Although Milton does mention that he telecommuted to work, which in 2011, you know,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_05]: he was ahead of the curve.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Ahead of his time.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_05]: He was. He truly was.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you listen to my interview with Dallas Roberts?

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like back in the day I did.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you did.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a good one.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: He seems cool.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Loved it. Yeah.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember particularly liking that one.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I included it in the show notes already, but I would go to if you're curious

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: go to podcast.com.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyone listening in search on Dallas Roberts.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_06]: That was a great one.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So next point, Michonne meets Rick and his group.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's love at first sight.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Never doubted in anyone's mind that these two crazy kids would end up together.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I was thinking there was heat between them back then.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I almost do now.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Two points in particular.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: What's really interesting to me about all of this sequence is seeing Michonne meet

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody for the first time.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so fun.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And noticing what she picks up about them, because even back then it was like, wow,

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: she wouldn't say a word to the governor and yet she's very forthcoming with them

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: right away. How come she trusts them?

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And now I feel like I think I'm even more clear on why.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: First, just seeing her right where she was picking up right where she was outside the

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: prison fence.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I, of course, can't get bad lip reading out of my head.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: When the zombie comes up next to her.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, bad lip reading.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_05]: You really ruined everything for us.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_05]: You really did.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_05]: You just don't look fair.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Just trivialized all of this.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she passes out probably from loss of blood from being shot.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: By Merle.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so making Merle feel suddenly like, oh, wow, he's really the bad guy right now.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Carl shoots a couple of the zombies as they're bearing down on Michonne.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just like, oh, he first thing Carl did when he met Michonne was save her life.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. He really did.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think they would have bitten her.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So Carl saved her life before she had a chance to ever save his.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Then Rick carries her in and I'm thinking, oh, he's carrying his future wife over the

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_05]: threshold of the prison.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Such a metaphor.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But so then she goes for her sword when he lays her down and he's like, we're not

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: going to hurt you unless you try something stupid first.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. And Daryl comes in.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Rick, who's the hell is this?

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I just love that's his first thing he ever said about Michonne.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Then when Rick and Michonne, they're kind of face to face and he goes, you want to

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: tell us your name? And she's silent.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He goes, you want to tell us your name?

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she holds his gaze.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And right there, she just seemed to have a smile behind her eyes.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt some heat there.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Something maybe they're just sizing each other up, but they're really connected there.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I agree.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he says he can treat her wound and she says, I didn't ask for your help.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And he says, doesn't matter.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Can't let you leave.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought at first, oh, is that like a Randall type thing?

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't let you leave because we don't trust you yet.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But soon later, he says he'll tend to her wound, give her food and water and send her

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: on her way. So I think when he said can't let you leave, he just meant you're in no

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: condition to leave.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. It's definitely ambiguous from her perspective, but I agree with her interpretation.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He should have been clear about that before locking someone up.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's like there's this line in Lord of the Rings.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, I always love when my ways of relating to the world are like, there's this line in

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Lord of the Rings where they first meet.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a big trilogy.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a big trilogy.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot there. Where they first meet Aragorn or Strider as he is then.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's Frodo says to Sam, I think an enemy would look fairer and feel fouler.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was thinking about that today because I mean, this is what I wrote.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I did not write the Lord of the Rings quote.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I wrote prison looks shite, good people.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Woodbury looks good, shite people.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_05]: It's that thing, like the prison's rough and ready, but the group of people in it are good

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_05]: people. And that kind of shines through the dirt of it.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Whereas Woodbury, because we then cut to Woodbury and we see like kids on bikes and it's

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_05]: all very 1950s idyllic.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I loved what Jim said about that interview with David Morrissey and his scrapbook and

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_05]: having the like Americana against the images of the Vietnam War.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_05]: That was brilliant. And yeah, you get that image of safety.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And no broken windows.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: But underneath it, it's rotten.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Whereas the prison is disgusting.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But the people are doing their best, you know?

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. And in Lord of the Rings, you meet Strider and he's this rough-hewn type of guy.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And you hear about when Sauron came in, which actually spoilers, but we're now seeing in

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Rings of Power and he's very fair.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. At first.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then so tell me what you thought about the two towers.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's actually my favorite one out of the three for your information.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that true?

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. I like the two towers.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The movie or the book?

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Both.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We're both.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_05]: You meet Faramir. He's the best character.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's pretty good.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_05]: He's my fave. He's not as good in the film anyway.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So what about Frodo? No, I'm just kidding.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So Rick sees that Carol is alive and this is such a beautiful scene.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What I love when Glenn Mazzara came in is he realized that he should let the actors do

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the work sometimes and not give them a lot of dialogue.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's so important here. For one, you just feel the emotion between them crying

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and hugging. And then just a look between Carol and Rick and she realizes Laurie's dead

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: with no dialogue. And then she says, I'm sorry.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really sad. And then the other reason that that's important is because Michonne

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is watching all this. And I think this is where she decides that she likes them and can

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: trust them. Maybe she already was feeling that with Rick, but really here it seems to

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: make an impact on her because when there's a lot of talking, words are easier to

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: deceive with than body language and emotion.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And she feels these people and trusts them.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And now because of that thinking about all this, it's clear to me why she doesn't trust

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the governor. Because one thing we've said about him is he's really hard to read and it

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: feels like there's a lot hidden underneath.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: David Morsey's doing a great job playing that where he's not showing his cards at all.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And his feelings seem buried.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it seems like he's hiding something, you know?

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so then now it's much more believable to me that Michonne would not trust him and

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: would trust Rick and everybody.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Because it is notable that she opens up to them so quickly.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think it's almost the release as well for her of being able to tell people her

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_05]: suspicions and what this guy is like without...

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Because she's been talking to a brick wall with Andrea.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_05]: For good reason, as you pointed out.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Like there are good reasons why Andrea is interpreting things the way she is.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_05]: But from Michonne's perspective, she's like, she's not had a great week.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, with Andrea, what she's getting from the governor is...

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Sex.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: This heat.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Is, you know, chemistry and interest.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a feeling too.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And what she doesn't know is...

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to get to this more in a later point, but I'll just touch on it now.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That he is very good at manipulating people that way.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's a charmer, as Michonne says.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He's charming.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Jim Jones type.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: His looks.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Jim Jones type.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Andrea is not with the governor because of what he's saying either.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: She's with him because of this heat in between them and that she's impressed

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: with what he's built and everything.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I like that you mentioned Jim Jones.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Again, it was like in season one, season two, where these like the Lord of the

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Rings audio book, where you're like, oh, real life.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_05]: They exist in our world to an extent.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, I think Jim Jones...

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like when they said that line, I was like, Jason, I like that.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's culty.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I do.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I mean, the thing is we're so motivated, more motivated to do things by

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: how we feel than what we think a lot of the times and cult leaders know how to

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: hijack your feelings and get you hooked in.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So then, yeah, as you said, she opens up to Rick about the governor and everything.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he gets aggravated, Rick, when he finds out that the governor, or

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: someone has Glenn and Maggie and he grabs at Michonne's leg.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, that was dumb.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: She's telling you.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you need to do that?

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then...

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick Grimes doing something rash without thinking?

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_05]: That doesn't sound like Rick.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it did feel a little bit like you're just grabbing her, getting her

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: hands on her.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_05]: He just wanted to touch her.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And she goes, don't you ever touch me again, which she later changes her mind on.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, quite spectacularly.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we have RJ.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she says, find him yourself.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, yeah, see you blew it, Rick.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But then they have another moment of heat, I feel like, and then she just starts

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: telling him about Woodbury.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_05]: It's the silver fox eyes.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_05]: She's just like, oh, how could I lie to these baby blues?

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, come on.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know a lot of people listening to the podcast are like, yep.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_05]: It is so ironic though.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, so here's the thing.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I feel with Rick and Michonne, like I kind of did about, sorry, Molly and

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Monica and Chandler and friends, which is like, did they always, I don't think they

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_05]: maybe always planned this, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was watching the episodes like, did they plan this?

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's obviously not a rom-com meet-cute.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_05]: It's obviously not like, that's not what this is.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But there's a lot about it, like you say, that when you read it back, you're like,

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_05]: oh yeah.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And one of the things for me is like, Rick coming out of, literally coming out into

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_05]: the light, holding Judith and being with Carl.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_05]: And then Michonne is standing there.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, Laurie who?

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's not because he sees her again a couple of times this season, whatever.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_05]: But there's something about that.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Like she walks in at that moment where that has, you know, that has impacted him.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And it just works.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_05]: It's good.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's almost for sure that they had not planned it, but I'm starting to have a

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: little bit of doubt.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Like maybe they did kind of have the seed of that idea right from the start.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_05]: See, I don't, I think it all hangs on when they decided that Andrea was going to be

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_05]: killed off.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I do believe that they were trying to play the Rick and Andrea long game, which

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_05]: is the comic ending for Rick and Andrea.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_05]: But as soon as Andrea was killed off, it was sort of like the field's wide open, you

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_05]: know?

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Michonne ended up getting some of Andrea's storylines from the comic too later

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: on.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, she did.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Next governor is into dominance.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I know, so we already kind of knew I, well, I'll say from my point of view, I knew

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: cognitively, like on a cognitive level that the governor was obsessed with control.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But this episode made me really feel it.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: There was one scene early where he did something and really seemed to get off on it.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: What did he do?

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Kill somebody or something?

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I forget.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: He had a little psycho moment.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, for the most part, because he keeps things kind of hidden that you don't feel

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it so much as just thinking this is what he's all about.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But here, I mean, I think that's because when his emotions come in is when he's being

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: skeevy, skeevy, you know, or controlling, like when you see the real him and that's when

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you really feel him as well as being dominating.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like an alligator.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know. He kind of goes about just below the surface and then suddenly.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he has two ways of getting people to submit to him through charm and through

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: force.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And he chooses based on the situation with Andrea.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He really poured on the charm.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And we see her in the bedroom, presumably post coital, putting on her shimmying into her

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: pants.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's giving off this giddy honeymoon phase vibes.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got to say, she's a sexy lady.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Hashtag attracted to Andrea.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Hashtag respectfully attracted to Andrea.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_05]: She's I think Lori Holden looks big.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Not objectifying in a not objectifying way.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm always obsessed with her hair this season.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Like her curls are so perfect.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm always looking at them like who in Woodbury is doing the hair because I would like to go

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_05]: to that salon because it looks great.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I used to actually kind of have a crush on Lori Holden for a while there.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember because we did two interviews on this podcast and the first one was right before

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the season one finale.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I used to do interviews over Skype, but it was audio only.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when I rang her up, she came on video and I was surprised.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it kind of took me aback for a second.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I told her, oh, I usually do these audio.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Want to just keep the video on though?

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, yeah.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was just super cool and fun and everything.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And then one time right before a panel, because I'd done a few panels with her and another

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: interview.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And one time right before a panel, I remember we were backstage and we're just getting ready

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to go on stage.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And she looked at me and said something like, I'm really glad you're here.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like melting.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know how much she remembered that it was me on this podcast.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's hard to tell how much they actually remember you because they meet so

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: many people.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But we did a second interview at the towards the end of this season, season three.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's episode 95.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember at that point she was feeling kind of bad because of the fan reaction to

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: her and also how she was treated by the writers and how her character went out and

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: everything. And she was really open about it on this podcast.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was trying to be really supportive of her and all that.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So that one stands out for that reason.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Almost felt like a therapy session.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It does sound like she was pretty hard done by by all the changes in season three.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I think just thinking of him as this pretty boy, charming Jim Jones type.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me feel like, you know, she's not seeing him for what he is.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a manipulator.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: She thinks he's just into her because they have this great chemistry, but he's trying to

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: get something from her. And so he's total fucker.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And it also makes me wonder how many of the women of Woodbury has the governor seduced.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't think that except Michonne calling him a Jim Jones type.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And we saw another woman in his bed.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you mentioned this last week.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, I hadn't twigged that.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was the woman apparently who had been showing Michonne and Andrea around.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I do think he's grooming Andrea to be this mother figure to Penny.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think he has a special place in mind for her.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do wonder. And then what we see with Maggie.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if he's just going around sleeping with all the women in.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, who cares? It doesn't really matter.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think what was really interesting, what you're saying about force and control is like

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_05]: he doesn't says exactly the same things with Andrea as he does with Maggie when he holds

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_05]: her and says it's OK.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's just so sinister to see the exact same move in two completely different contexts

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_05]: that are really giving me the chills.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where like that it's in the two contexts.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: One is charm and one is force.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, with Andrea, it's charm.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: With Maggie, it's force.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you see you think about those two side by side that he with both of them, he

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: clasped their head to his chest, stroke their hair and said it would be OK.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's the same thing for him.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's getting people to submit to him and do what he wants them to do.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And when he did it to Maggie, it was about dominating Glenn as well.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It was about using that power over him.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Well, let me go through that.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So he Murrell fails to get any information from Glenn.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So the governor goes into question Maggie in the comic.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It was Michonne after she had the governor chopped off Rick's hand.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Michonne bit off part of his ear and then he took her to a room alone.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is going to trigger some people.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm just going to say it quickly.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: He brutally beat, raped and tortured her.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was over.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It was really long period of time.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Really awful.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, horrible.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I remember Charlie Atthard said he didn't like drawing it.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_05]: He was like that was pretty dark.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the one thing that he was like, I, I think I'm sure he didn't like drawing this.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember he all maybe it was both, but he also didn't like drawing when Michonne took her

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: revenge. Yeah.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I like going in and scooping the governor's eyes out with a spoon.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And stuff like that shown in graphic detail and the comic, but fucking deserved it.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so, um, so we were wondering if the governor would do that to Michonne.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The show.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause he knew the comic.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when this started happening, I was like, oh, is he going to do that to Maggie?

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And it, this is, I think, supposed to represent that section of the comic.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But they decided to dial it back.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's still shitty as fuck, but it's not like what he did in the comic.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, where he, like I said, well, yeah.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, and he does kind of halfheartedly, but try the charm route at first with her.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: He's more or less friendly.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He wants to know where her people are, says there'll be okay.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, he's probably going to kill them.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he kills all threats, but, um, it's like, you know, I was thinking about why he killed

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: those soldiers and we've talked about it before, but there's a parallel maybe with the CRM.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Where they have the A's and the B's the A's are the people who are independent minded and

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: potentially rebellious.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The B's are more docile and compliant.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe that's part of the governor wants to take in bees, but kill the A's.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that makes sense.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So Maggie refuses to say anything.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So then the governor takes on this intimidating tone, orders her to stand up, take off her

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: shirt or he'll bring Glenn's hand in, takes off her bra.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think he took off his belt and started walking towards her with a sleazy grin on his

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: face, touched her hair, smelled her.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So then he says, so you're going to talk?

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And she said very calmly, do whatever you're going to do and go to hell.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She's expecting that he's going to sexually assault her, which he is really, but fully, you

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: know, I just think that, you know, the governor trying to bring his daughter back is

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: misguided, but not evil.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But what makes him evil is this control getting off on controlling and dominating people.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And he really reminded me of Negan here.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Negan likes to do this kind of a thing too.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he really does.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Or he used to, but now he just says he did it because it was the world that he was the

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: monster the world needed or whatever.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I hate it when the world makes me, you know, have a harem of coercively entrapped women.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so annoying, you know?

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And iron their husbands faces.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Why did I do that?

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That is necessary sometimes.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes I just think, man, that was a bad...

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_05]: But you know what?

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I met this kid, really like him.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I think I'm going to really make a fool of him.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, you know, a tiger changed me.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's fine.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, then the governor and Merle walk poor shirtless Maggie into this area with

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Glenn and the governor threatens to shoot Glenn.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Maggie tells them where the camp is.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when the governor starts like kissing her on the head and rubbing her hair

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, yes, this is a show of dominance to Glenn and to Maggie, but also to the

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: governor's men who are there.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm sure some of them probably don't like this.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's just like, this is what I fucking do.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to accept it.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I do what I want.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I get what I want.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So then later, I'm almost done with this point, but when Andrea is upset about how things

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: went with this, uh, Mr.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Coleman guy.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the governor strokes her hair the same way he did to Maggie.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just gives it that feeling of I'm dominating you too.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Anything else to say about any of that before I move on?

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Just that what he does to Maggie is deplorable.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And even though it doesn't go as far as an actual kind of physical assault, it's still a

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_05]: sexual assault and it's still not nice.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think they explore the kind of ongoing repercussions of that this season a little

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_05]: bit.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And I always thought it was quite interesting that the show chose to do that.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And I always kind of respected them because this came at a time when rape was being used

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_05]: as a storytelling device in quite a lot of mainstream prestige shows.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Game of Thrones.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And I always kind of respected that in this episode, at least they didn't indulge that

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_05]: what I think can be quite weak storytelling and at the expense of women's kind of strength

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_05]: in storylines.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I think sometimes that's just a lazy way of invoking trauma for a female character.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_05]: But here they managed to explore the nuances of coercion and assault and power dynamics

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_05]: in a way that is, um, that's really disturbing.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_05]: But without that kind of gratuity, I think.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think there's a point, I'm sure in later episodes that will come to where Glenn's worried

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_05]: that she was raped and hasn't told him.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and it causes a lot of tension in their relationship in the way that Maggie processes

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_05]: this trauma because she's so vulnerable and it's so fucked up what happens to her.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's really unforgivable and beyond the pale.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And you're right.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_05]: He completely gets off on it.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_05]: He completely thrives in that position.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And in a way, here's what I'll say.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that the fact Maggie didn't respond in the way that he was maybe expecting might

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_05]: have changed what he intended to do there.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way to behave in these situations or that

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_05]: people who behave a certain way do or don't deserve what happens to them.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think Maggie saying when it became clear that Maggie wasn't going to, I don't know,

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_05]: fight or struggle, it seemed to change something in him and he seemed to change his mind, which

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_05]: goes to show-

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe. We don't know for sure.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't know for sure.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And either way, he's a sick fuck.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's all you need to know.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to punch him in the face.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I really felt anger there.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I just want to take you and, you know, kick you into a puddle of mud and stomp you

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: or something.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Disgusting.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely disgusting.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Poor Glenn and poor Maggie.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_05]: She doesn't get her shirt back.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand how anyone can get off on dominating someone like that in any way.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It just really upsets me.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's horrific.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, poor Maggie doesn't even get her shirt back.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just so, ugh.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know. It's just gross.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a traumatic moment for both of them and Glenn because he's like feeling helpless that

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02]: he can't protect her.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You know?

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He really wants to.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And he gives her his t-shirt, which is so nice.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Next one is self-sabotage.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a shorter one.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The way the governor, like I said, if the governor had just wanted to revive his

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: daughter, then he wouldn't be.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he could get people to help him or talk him out of it or whatever.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But like if he was just honest about what he was doing and more collaborative with his

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: people about how to handle outsiders.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But the flaws of needing control and dominance and keeping everything to himself and being

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a killer is what makes him an antagonist.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And in a way, it's what makes him human because he could achieve his goals.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Without hurting anyone, but a lot of times we're really our own worst enemy, I think.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I like about shows after like the year 2000, they stopped having for

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the most part just mustache twirling villains and just try to explore the psychology of

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: people and how we all we all trip ourselves up in some ways.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And some people who are just more extreme get worse things.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So so the governor is impressed that Glenn and Maggie's group, who she says are of 10

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: people, have cleared the prison.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And that, in my mind, makes it just 100 percent likely that he would just kill them.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we know that he goes to the president and tries to kill them.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He wants that.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And when Daryl and Rick and everybody are approaching Woodbury, I like how they cut

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: back and forth to the governor questioning Merle's loyalty.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, your brother's with them.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Who are you loyal to?

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the question for Merle this season.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was thinking Merle did a little bit of self-sabotage here, too, because by

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: forcefully taking Maggie and Glenn, he set up this adversarial relationship between his

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: group, the Woodburyans, and Daryl's group.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He kind of forced this fight.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Now he has to deal with the fact that the governor wants to kill Daryl's people.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: He may be called on to hurt his own brother.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I bet he didn't think that through.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_05]: He one one thing he does have in common with Rick.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Perhaps he did not think this through.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, right.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And the governor, like if you treat everyone like a threat and like an adversary, then

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: some of those ones who wouldn't have been will be.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people are threats no matter what you do, but some people aren't unless you take

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: them into your dungeon and torture them.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Very true.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: My mom used to tell me that.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Family model.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So next one, number five.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The group goes to save Maggie and Glenn.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Just a few notes about the sequence.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: First off, Oscar and Axel are like eager to help with this.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt like that was a little bit of Department of Suspension of Disbelief.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know you want to prove that you're on board.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but put your life in danger?

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's extreme.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I guess.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Axel didn't even end up going either, and they didn't really say why unless I missed it.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Changed his mind.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll go.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wait, I forgot.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to mop the floor.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I washed my hair.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Beth said she would go and she didn't go.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, they should not let Beth go.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, 100 percent.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Before he leaves, Rick talks to Carl.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: He says if something happens, get everyone in the cells and keep them all safe.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl says, I will.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And Rick says, I know, I know you will.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just love that moment because it felt like.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Rick seeing something in Carl or acknowledging something he already knows that you I know

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you're a protector like me, you know, it's like a lot of us, your kids take after you and

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl really takes after Rick that he is so driven to try to protect everyone.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just I don't know.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I really like that acknowledgement between the two of them.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Sweet.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl names Judith.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I totally forgotten the Carl named Judith.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's we never talk about that.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So no, it's not his first grade teacher.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Sad to all these scenes of Carl just make me feel sad that Carl's not around anymore.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Last week's episode where he just lists all these dead women and everyone's like, oh boy,

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: no, this kid.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl, are you sure you want to name your sister after a dead woman?

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_05]: You sure you want to name her after Jackie, who we didn't really know for that long.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Carl. I gave Bodhi that I got a floppy bunny in Edinburgh for him and he named it

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Fluffles.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Fluffles.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was cute.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Not like Jackie or Lori or Sophia.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Any dead person that we used to know.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They're driving the Hyundai, I noticed.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Very clean.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Who's on cleaning the Hyundai duty?

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd love to know.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if it's still like product placement or they just have it.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Just like we may as well keep it nice.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. But I guess if you see it all dirty and messed up, you'll know that the money is not

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_02]: going in anymore.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_05]: This episode where they set it on fire and like, I don't know shit on it.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like this piece of shit.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_05]: This fucking crap car.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Slow and it always breaks down.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the last part of this sequence, the Zeds swarm them all and they take refuge in

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02]: this shack.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And this guy living there, poor guy, is freaked out, of course.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: He goes to run out the door, which would have let the zombies in.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So Michonne kills him.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they throw him to the zombies and go out the back.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, if they just let him out the door and went out the back, it would have been

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the same effect, except Michonne would have had to kill him.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_05]: You know?

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Would have been the exact same thing, which is why I was like, what was the point of this

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: scene?

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of exciting, which maybe is the point.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also think it was just to give this scene where Michonne kills a guy.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So there would be this tension about, oh my God, she killed a guy.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: She probably had to, but maybe we can't trust her kind of feeling or something like that.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a decisive move and very iconic.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I did laugh at Daryl's gas last he went home with the dead dog.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_05]: That really made me laugh.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What was it?

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_05]: When he comes in, there's a smell.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like a dead fox or something.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And then you see it's a dead dog and he's like, gas last he went home.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I just love that like worst moment for a quip.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, huh?

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Huh?

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, no, no, no, no, Daryl.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: No one laughed at all.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then is this my last point?

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Milton's research.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So the governor just kind of took Andrea to Milton's lab and unless it happened off screen, he didn't really explain what it was about, why she was there, what she was supposed to be doing.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You think he told her on the way over or, or not?

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I think probably, I don't think she's on board regardless of whether he told her or not.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But if he didn't tell her, I hope James doesn't mind me saying this.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But it reminds me of how James Frazier would run Walker stocker because he would give very little instruction or input.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that was at first a little frustrating, like, I don't know how you want me to do this, but over time and pretty quickly, actually, I realized it was awesome because that just gave me a lot of latitude to run my part of those panels, how I wanted to do it.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And he would get so much out of people with very little.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It was, I was like, how do you do that?

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think with Podcastica, I'm the opposite.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I micromanage and just suck the joy out of it for people.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I don't think that's the case.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, thank you.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, I was always impressed with that.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So, but I was like, why, why do you think the governor is showing her this?

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I have an idea, but I'm curious what you think.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Partly to distract her from everything else that's going on.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's partly to kind of get her to buy into this bigger ideal and prep her for the idea of maybe becoming a stepmom to a reanimated.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's it.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_05]: But what surprised me about this is at no point does Andrea say like, yo, Milton, we went to the CDC and spoke to an actual doctor who told us the actual science with slides.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's this move on.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, she probably if she was like me, she would have said, Milton, we went to the CDC and the scientist showed us slides.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was like a brain stem or something.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said some stuff.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I forget.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that helpful?

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We just got really drunk.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Milton's like, we went to the CDC, you met Dr. Jenner?

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And she's like, yeah, but we got shitfaced.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like that joke about how, you know, if you went back in time and you'd be like, useless.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have these like screens that can show you anything.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: How do they work?

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Satellites?

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Something to do with like, I want to see electricity.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So in the lab.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So we see Mr. Coleman, this old man dying.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Governor says, thank you for doing this.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You're doing us great service.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So it sounds like he volunteered to help them figure, you know, be experiment with the zombies, which makes me wonder how many of the Woodburyans.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they must know something about this because Milton is it's his whole purpose.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So we don't really know how much people know and what the governor has said, if anything, about why they're doing this.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But as I've said before, it does make sense to me that you would try to understand the zombies better.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But I wonder if Milton knows about Penny, you know?

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder about that.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like we might get some nods towards whether he does or doesn't in the next couple of episodes.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope so.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've forgotten.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So what is he doing?

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, I've been trying to determine, Milton, that is whether trace memory and human consciousness exist after the subject has transformed.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But I had no baseline to work off till now.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's trying to see if there's any humanity left.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I looked up trace memory.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a neuroscientific and psychological concept that refers to the physical and biochemical changes in the brain that represent a memory.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: When you experience an event or learn something new, your brain forms new connections between neurons, strengthening existing ones.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Memory traces can last from a few minutes to a lifetime, depending on factors like emotional significance and frequency of recall.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think he's just trying to see if there's any humanity left.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the next step, presumably, would be to figure out how to amplify it to bring the zombies back, you know?

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And he uses this meditation bowl and music, which I think is probably something this guy, Mr.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Coleman, likes this song or whatever, because he asks for it to keep playing as a sort of a cue for a Pavlovian response so that after he reanimates, maybe that will help trigger him

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to remember things.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Then he asked these questions when he's still alive to sort of establish what the guy knows and remembers.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_04]: His name, Milton's name.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Things about his life.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And Andrea is like, when they turn, they become monsters.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoever they once were is gone.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I'm like, well, you don't know that for sure.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's worth studying.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think she's saying that because she killed her own zombie sister.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Then found out that, oh, actually.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Can you imagine if you'd waited an hour for it?

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_05]: She would have been in a basement.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Just wait an hour and they come back.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Duh.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they come back after that.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_05]: No, you just have to ask them what their name is.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, what?

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, ask them their name and play a song and they'll come back.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So then he, the guy dies and reanimates and fails miserably.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: All the questions, even though Milton just seems to show the folly of a lot of scientists who see what they hope to see.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_05]: He just, look, he's moving his fingers.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_05]: They're like, no buddy, no dude.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he takes off his restraints.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The Zed lunges at him, just like Andrea said.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And, oh, he said, I know what happens if the subject comes after us.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what you're here for.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that's what she was there for.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Did she know that?

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_02]: She does end up killing it very quickly, which is good.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I love how he's like, he, I was at first, I was like, does he realize he was about to die?

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he does, but he just sort of tries to collect himself and he goes, oh, okay.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'd like to record my findings while they're fresh.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, what are your findings?

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Zombies are fucked up.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Zombies are fucked up.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Nearly died.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Sad face.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, so the reason why I like this stuff is because I liked the idea that the zombies might retain something.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I, I've talked about this probably way too many times, but the show shifted on that.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when Morgan's zombie wife came up to the door, tried to open the door, they were getting it.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That there was something still there.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And Romero always said there was too.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why the zombies went to the mall in a Dawn of the Dead.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But I read that Kirkman didn't like that or whatever the case after the pilot, I don't think any other scenes seem to show that the zombies did have any memories.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And this, these episodes with Milton, especially this one seemed to confirm that the zombies are monsters.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, um, Andrea said, memoryless inhuman.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and, and I, I, I liked the idea that they might have something, but we know after this, they never did on The Walking Dead.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think for this storyline, them being memoryless and just monsters adds to the tragedy and craziness of the governor story.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause he's persistent in trying to bring his zombie daughter back, even though the evidence says there's nothing there.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people get hurt in the process.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not dissimilar to Jenner.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Jenner, we meet him at the end of the journey where he realizes that nothing can be done.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_05]: But the governor is still in that space of looking for hope.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I don't think Jenner thinks he's bringing his wife back, but he's looking for something.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said before, it's like, it's a bit like Herschel and his family with their family in the barn, but they don't have that whole control freak killer side.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_05]: No, they do not.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Sean did.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We never met him.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Sean.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_05]: We never knew.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Jimmy did.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_05]: He just kept it hidden.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Killer.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And then later when the governor's holding Andrea, you know, right after she comes back upset and she told him how it went and we can see by the expression on his face, he's not happy that the experiment failed.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_05]: No, he's not.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_05]: He's really not.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a darkness there.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's all I had about the episode, except for a few notes before I go into notes.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else you wanted to say about it?

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I just have some little notes too.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Those are those are the points I would have.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have hit, I think.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead with the notes then.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Michelle, Michelle, who's Michelle?

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Michonne is amazed that they cleared the prison again.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Great little group.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a nice moment with Herschel giving Michonne stitches and I don't know, Herschel's always a good ambassador for the group because he's such a nice grandpa.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Like he's so.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he even had any lines, did he?

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_05]: No, he's just patiently, diligently doing his stuff.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick, thanks, Darryl, for stepping up and Darryl says it's what we do.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought that was a nice moment.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick saying formation, no gunfire shows how well trained the group kind of are together.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Short hands.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's Maggie who cracks when they threaten Glenn.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_05]: She tells him about the prison and I don't blame her.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I would have done the same thing.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: He probably would have been dead in one second.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_05]: When I said I find the Milton Bits boring, Peter quipped that it's like watching paint die, which I thought was quite funny.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I enjoyed that one.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That is very good.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, yep, that's giddy.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02]: New Yorker review caliber statement there.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_05]: He just went, ah yes, watching paint die.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell him I said bravo.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I will, I will.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though I don't agree.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I'm shilling that for the pod.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, yes.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_05]: That's good.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I also have some IMDB was quite crap for this episode and I have some timeline, but I'll do your notes first.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Maggie tells the governor her group has 10 people and I was trying to figure out who they are.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We have Maggie, Glenn, Beth, that's three.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Herschel's four.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Rick is five.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl six.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Daryl seven.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Axel is eight.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Oscar is nine.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Judith.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Judith.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the 10th one.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_05]: She's going to be doing a fight.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, she will.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just not yet.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: She'll be doing good.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: She's got a master for that holding her own head up.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You, yeah, I couldn't fit.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I'm like, she does, she doesn't, she thinks Carol's dead.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So she's wrong, but I think you're exactly right.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And that reminds me of this time I was driving down the highway in the carpool lane because I had baby Nico in the back.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And in California, you can drive in the carpool lane with a baby for some reason.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got pulled over and the officer was walking up to the car and I rolled my window down and he goes, sorry, didn't see him.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was it.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, excellent.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Excellent.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Love it.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you got for timeline?

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Timeline?

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_05]: We are on day.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_05]: So apparently it's June 23rd.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know where the wiki is getting that from, but it's June 23rd.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_05]: It's day 303.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick has been awake for 244 days, which is roughly 34 weeks.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_05]: So if that timeline is to be believed, then Judith was quite premature.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think the timeline's nebulous at this point anyway.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, how premature?

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Pardon?

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, how far in did you say we were?

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: 234?

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: How many months is that?

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So day 303, Rick's been awake for 244 days, which comes to about 34 weeks.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_05]: So if anyone out there still thinks that Judith is Rick's.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I would say the timing is dubious.

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_06]: 34 would be quite early.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_05]: With no medical intervention or support, I feel like that would be quite early.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Although obviously the baby is like a chunk because they never show like tiny little newborn babies.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_05]: They always show like at least three month old ones.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Like the first time I saw a properly newborn baby, I was like, Jesus.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like TV lied to me.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow, that looks weird.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, they don't come out fully formed and like 20 pounds.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, IMDB was quite rubbish this week.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_05]: It just says in season three, they use greyer makeup on the walkers to show further decay.

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_05]: According to The Talking Dead, the TV show, not the podcast, when the walkers are eating a freshly killed human's intestines,

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_05]: the intestines are made out of silicone casing stuffed with barbecue.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Walker extras who do not eat meat are given vegetarian stuffing.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_05]: This is the final episode that T-Dog has mentioned until season three, episode 10, Home.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_05]: And when the group is stuck in the shack with the shut in, he is holding a double barreled shotgun.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_05]: The sound of effect of it cocking is heard, but that type of gun would not make that sound.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I do not know anything about guns, so I cannot confirm or deny that.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's it.

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a good only on The Walking Dead this week.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Only on The Walking Dead would your meet cute involve baby formula, passing out your future steps on shooting zombies and getting stitched up by a random old dude.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Greatest love story of our time.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Classic.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens.

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The people he kills get up and kill.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Are they slow moving chief?

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're slow moving.

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They're dead. They're all messed up.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a walking dead cast news update.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Just a couple of things.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I found out that the Daryl show, both seasons two and three apparently are each going to have six episodes.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, OK.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So not, uh, you know, with other walking dead series, I think fear and the main series, they started out with six episode seasons, but then grew, but not with the Daryl show, which is fine with me.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's good.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_05]: And that'll be good.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: First one was good.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then next.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I'm hearing myself as an echo.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Echo.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really?

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really here.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: On September 25th, online auction house Prop Store is hosting a walking dead prop auction.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's going to be over 200 items from the show for auction, including Rick's badge, Michonne's katana, Morgan's staff, Daryl's crossbow and even Lucille Negan's barbed wire bat.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yikes.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, that's great.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, have you ever gone on to one of these TV show auctions?

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I did.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Check them out.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_05]: The only time I've looked at one was for an artist I really liked in Glasgow.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, actually the guy who wrote Poor Things, Alistair Gray, his estate did an auction.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and I had to look at that because he had some amazing like collected stuff and drawings he'd done.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was fascinating to see the kind of stuff that was there.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_05]: I've never done it for a TV show, but I can imagine it would be very rich.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's cool.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I looked for, um, was it better Breaking Bad or something?

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But the one that really sticks out is Ash vs Evil Dead.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If you know Evil Dead, they have the Necronomicon, this book that's bound in flesh and it's an old, you know, it's got like eyes and mouths on it and stuff.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, they had several versions of it.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They had like the main hero version, but then they had all these other ones that you use in action scenes that are a little more rugged.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure it's like that with this, but I think, um, and they also had a lot of little things like somebody's wallet that you wouldn't even know, you know, or pants or clothes or whatever.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's probably most of it.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But what's cool, especially about The Walking Dead is I think one of the main things about The Walking Dead is the items are so iconic.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They're so iconic.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, man, to be able to get, you know, like which one of these would I want?

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Michonne's katana.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That would be so incredible.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Also, Handy and a zombie percolapse.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But it also makes me think each one of these things, the main things that people really want are going to be in the thousands of dollars.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, 100%.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be expensive.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say if you have a ton of money and you're a huge fan, maybe you can get one of those.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: If you do get one, if you're listening, let us know.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We'd love to see a picture of it.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But even if you're not, it's really fun to just go on and look at it.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's propstore.com on September 25th.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_05]: I, the Necronomicon.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_05]: What did you say the book was called?

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_05]: The Necronomicon.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I always laugh at that because it overcooked the like cartoon video game.

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_05]: One of the MacGuffins is called the Necronomicon.

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And every time someone mentions the Necronomicon, I now laugh thinking about this cookery book called the Necronomicon.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So you can all have that for free.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's good.

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Love it.

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's move on to Lister Merlach Grounds of Grunts.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_05]: First up, our friend Jennifer McGinley, who we've now met in person.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Jennifer.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: She says, brilliant.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I've nearly caught up.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Watched season three, episode four last night.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Poor T-dog.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Andrew Lincoln's acting brought tears to my eyes.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: You know the scene when he falls to the ground.

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, my.

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Also noticed this time that his last interaction with Laurie isn't pleasant.

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And when the Zeds infiltrate the prison that Enrique stuck far away, his first thought is for her.

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Also noted Andrea batting eyelashes at Guv right from the off in Woodbury.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Man, all that woman thinks about is her hole.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, I know you don't care about this episode now and I've moved on, but was just so good.

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_05]: My BCFF, my best cyber friend forever for 14 years, decided to start watching The Walking Dead a few weeks ago after many years of scoffing at my enthusiasm for the show and anything post-apocalyptic.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he's loving it.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_05]: So I decided to join him at TES19.

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_05]: He was bored shitless the first few episodes of season two, and I had to convince him the payoff midseason finale would be worth it.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Which he agreed.

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_05]: He has a few complaints about sketchy dialogue, but has well and truly come over to our side.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_05]: My memory had me thinking that this scene with Glenn happened a lot later in season three or season four even, or even season four.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Rewatch is our ace.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Love you all.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Love you too, Jennifer.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Jennifer. I agree.

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a little bit bored and had questions about the dialogue, too, but I'm glad I stuck with it.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Good to hear from you. Here's Steve Brown.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, the cast of us.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Steve and this is for The Walking Dead.

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Season three, episode seven, right?

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: When the dead come calling, something like that.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Seriously, trying to be the bigger man here saying that you were better.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Glenn is not going to buy this and he knows you're about to torture him.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, headbutt from Glenn.

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, Carl wants to help.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But Rick, are you just going to watch Michonne, see how skilled she is or what?

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: At least they brought her inside and she's not going to the cell blocks.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But now what's Daryl going to show Rick?

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he's showing him Carol's alive.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, everybody's calmed down.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Rick, you're not going to get anything from her by torturing her.

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So just treat her human.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, Glenn.

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know you're trying to give him misinformation, but you just said Andrea's name.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, Judith is going to be her name.

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Not going to make her grow up and try to choose her own name or anything.

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Governor, what have you brought Andrea to now?

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: This set up.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of remember what happens here with the dead guy in the bed and Andrea.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is intense.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Glenn trying to fight this walker while he's strapped to a chair.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: When he got him.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, as we know, story, the length of time it takes for a person to reanimate after they die is depending on the story.

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You couldn't get Glenn to break.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But now the governor is going to go talk to Maggie.

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: This is just gross.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the way the governor is going to torture Maggie by threatening Glenn.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It just, duh, violence against women just, grr.

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I've always wondered this thing.

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: How do the walkers know that they're in there?

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, did they see them go in there?

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Do they smell them?

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I forgot that Michonne killed that guy before he could get outside.

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Mr. Coleman is reanimating and they got out of that shack pretty easily.

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they had to kill a guy and use his body as a distraction.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But hey, oh, that's I mean, I'm giving the prison up.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But now the governor's kissing Maggie on the head.

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, hey.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they did something that Merle told the governor couldn't be done.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But next week, oof, attack of Woodbury.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Another thing that's great about this episode is the dynamic-ness of it.

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's thrilling moments, there's skeezy moments,

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: there's heartfelt moments.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And hearing Steve react to all of that in two minutes really brings that home.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, oh my God.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Steve is all of us.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Dina wrote in and says, hi all.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Dina, there's a reason I named my crossbow Merle and let it be said,

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I still cannot lift that thing.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I suspect my husband bought the gift for himself.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, Merle is one of my favorite characters.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't like him in real life and his counterpart is alive

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and well in my extended family.

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what that means.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: His, his, uh, crossbow?

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The crossbow.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: A few counterparts in fact, but I've loved his character.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And even before he finally sacrifices his own self desires for the sake of

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Daryl's needs, even before that, his torture of Glenn is horrifying.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: But this time around I forced myself into his shoes and now I don't blame him.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Very simply, Glenn is keeping Daryl from him and aside from himself, Daryl is

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the only thing that matters to Merle.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good point.

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he could handle it differently and be like, look, I really want to see

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: my brother, can you please help me?

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Glenn doesn't deny him Daryl though.

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_05]: He says he will go and get Daryl and bring him to him.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: He does.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Takes an element of trust, but it's not like Glenn says no way he says on our terms.

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Merle could say, look, that's fine, but I don't trust you'll do that.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can't just let it be like that.

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he could talk it out, but then it would be so fucking boring.

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: It would be so reasonable.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_05]: There'd be nothing to do.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, and then it was all resolved.

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: She goes on, if Glenn had told him about the prison, I wonder if Merle would have

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: abandoned Woodbury for good and not tell the governor about the prison.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Merle can read people as well as Daryl.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He just doesn't give a shit about people.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He knows enough not to trust Woodbury's leader.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe he did not take.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I disagree with that, Dean.

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm really sorry.

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I think he's in awe of the governor.

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I do too, but awe and trust aren't the same.

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_05]: True, true.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think he believes in what he's doing.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And even that, I don't know if that's the same as trust.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I, yeah.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think he knows that if he doesn't do what the governor wants, the governor

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: will kill him.

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's true.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So he, but he thinks that if he does do it, that there's a pretty good chance he'll be

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: okay.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And he may be right about that.

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You know?

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_05]: The governor is to Merle what Rick is to Daryl, but he brings out the different side

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_05]: of him, you know, the bad bits.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I totally agree with that.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, shit.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Where the hell was I?

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I believe he did not take pleasure when he saw Maggie's humiliation Merle.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He'd never move to help her of course.

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And although he'd be cruel if he'd been the one to grill her, I don't think he'd

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: sexually assault her.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Not sure he'd hit or maim her either.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Unlike Michonne, Maggie's defenseless.

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he lost all respect for the governor when he saw her shirtless.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: If he had any respect to start.

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have no idea if you're right about any of that.

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Now it makes me want to go back and see if we can see his reaction to any of it.

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I wasn't watching Merle at all.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I need more.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Need more.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I may be giving him more credit than due.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: If they were at a party and she was drunk, he probably wouldn't

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: hesitate to date rape her.

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's that, but otherwise top of the line guy.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh wow.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Jesus beats me.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to hear a psychiatrist assessment as well as yours.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe I'll go back and watch it again and talk about it next episode.

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Now you have me curious.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like the text.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_05]: The text is going to have to do some heavy lifting there.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I think.

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if it would be interesting to go back and see if we can see Merle's

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: reaction to what the governor's doing.

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I did have it in my mind that wow, all these guys that the governor employs

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: are having to watch him be a total skeevy prick here.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And you gotta think that not every single one of them is like, yeah, get her.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that they're all people.

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully, I don't know.

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You never know.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't actually look at their faces, so I don't know.

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm intrigued to go back.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know you have made me want to go back and look at that again?

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a call from Archmaester Reni.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yay Reni!

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Hello.

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_08]: I got very behind on the rewatch and I'm getting caught up now.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And I just listened to the podcast for Hounded and I wanted to let you know

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: how much I enjoyed Karen's explanation of the music and how the leitmotifs work.

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_08]: And the way that she broke it down and explained everything.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_08]: That was just great.

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know a great deal about music, although I really like music

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_08]: and I always love to learn more.

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_08]: So I am very much on board with Karen doing more of that.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_08]: So thank you, Karen.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't get to that part yet, right?

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I haven't yet.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_05]: No, I was cramming the episodes today, but I'm looking forward to it.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're going to love it.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And it reminds me, I'm glad you mentioned that Reni, because there was a Lost podcast.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it the Jane Jack one?

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I used to listen to a few different Lost podcasts and they had a guy who used to

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: come on and talk about the music and play examples.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was delightful.

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Karen just did the same thing.

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, Karen, if you'd like to come back on, just let me know anytime.

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That'd be really fun.

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I would adore that.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Karen's amazing.

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Gemma Hall says, this is one of my fave episodes as well.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I absolutely loved Glenn here, a true badass.

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's the time he starts to fall into his leadership role within the group.

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_05]: His strong love for Maggie and she with him really shines through in this episode.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I remember feeling petrified watching Glenn fight off that walker, but he uses his

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_05]: resourcefulness and the room around him to take the walker down.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_05]: It's excellent.

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Couldn't agree more.

[01:16:45] [SPEAKER_05]: The governor's behaviour in this episode is sickening and disturbing, especially as

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_05]: he's just slept with Andrea.

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I was very worried he would go further with Maggie, but what he did was bad enough.

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I know you won't like this, Jason, but that's the difference between him and Negan.

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I know Negan has a harem of women.

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what I mean.

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Negan does usually have much respect for women and even kills one of his men who was

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_05]: going to rape Sasha.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, it's too much to get into here.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I find the whole sequence upsetting and it leaves a mark on Glenn and Maggie for a

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_05]: while. I'm going to pause here, Jason.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: For me?

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think some of the writers of Negan, including Kirkman in the comic, wanted

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to make a big show of how Negan hates rape.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think as a society, our intelligence about what constitutes

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: sexual assault and coercion was lower than it is now, 15 years ago than it is now.

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And now we realize that the way Negan was with this harem is a form of rape.

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a coercion.

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a coercive, sexual coercion.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not even very subtle.

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: He's ironing the faces of their husband.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He's setting it up so if they choose to be with him, choose in quotes, they'll

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: survive. And if they don't, they'll basically die.

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's no choice there.

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no choice.

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he, you know, they're going to check to see if they have, they're getting

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: pregnancy tests. So, you know, he is sleeping with them, despite what JDM says.

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And Sherry wants to kill him.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's her whole mission in life to kill him.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, they're not happy about it.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe one or two are.

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows? But some of them aren't.

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's, I don't agree with you, Gemma, I have to say.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm the same.

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_05]: It's a hard pass for me.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I think coercive, coercive rape is rape.

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_05]: It is what it is.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Like and you can't, you can't justify it.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And you can't, you know, you as in the general you not speaking specifically to any

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_05]: one person here.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah.

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's hard to say like when you're just sort of saying, look, if you sleep with me,

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: then you get to live.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't, then you probably will die.

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then compare that to the governor going into Maggie and just being domineering

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: sexually and making her take off her clothes and humiliate or, you know, feel humiliated.

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you quantify which one of those is worse?

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. I think Negan's worse, honestly.

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I could definitely see an argument for the governor.

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But either way, they're both very bad.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_05]: They're both very bad. And I think the difficulty we have with Negan time and time

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_05]: again is that the writers haven't stuck to one specific thing with him.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_05]: They've responded too much to fan and actor interpretations of it.

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_05]: And they've tried to soften things that should never be softened.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_05]: It's the opposite of what we're talking about with Merle, where they stuck the landing

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_05]: and they're like, yeah, he's a racist piece of shit.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Deal with it. They're doing this whack stuff with GDM now where it's like, no, I never

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_05]: really wanted that.

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, you didn't see what you thought you saw.

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would respect it so much more if he was like, yeah, I sexually coerced those women

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and man, I really fucked up and I hope I can redeem myself versus no, I was just playing

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a part and I didn't actually sleep with them or whatever.

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just it's ridiculous.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Like it made me think a lot about the sanctuary episode that we see where Carl goes behind

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_05]: the scenes, which is pretty close to the comic, actually, that episode.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And you see the Harim and you see them worrying about being pregnant and trying to get

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_05]: fucking abortion pills because they need that kind of, you know, they need that kind of

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_05]: reproductive health care because they're living in a fucking dystopia where they're being

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_05]: coercively raped all the time anyway.

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But my one question is in Scotland, do you say Harim?

[01:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we say Haram.

[01:20:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, maybe I just say Harim.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe I talk weird.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe we talk weird.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I got into it.

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought there was a...

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You're here because of how you talk.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I know it's true.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't actually talk like this at all.

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm actually from...

[01:21:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Go walls.

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I think no sexual assault is forgivable or better or worse than another in the

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_05]: sense I'm not going to go into a blow by blow of what's worse than another.

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_05]: But I will say that I...

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Negan and the governor are equal pieces of shit for what they do to one thing or another.

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, Gemma goes on to say, also the man in the cabin is really funny and I don't get

[01:21:32] [SPEAKER_05]: how he survived unaware for that long.

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_05]: But Michonne is quick to take him down.

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_05]: She's always such a quick thinker with that sort of intense situations or when she later

[01:21:40] [SPEAKER_05]: in season five knocks out Rick.

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Iconic moment.

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Feeding him to the walkers, though, was absolutely gross.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I can never quite watch it.

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_05]: The sounds were horrible.

[01:21:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I am going back to the beginning, but Michonne walking up to the prison covered in zombie

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_05]: guts and holding baby formula is one of my favourite moments ever.

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There's an instant connection between her and Rick, even though he is wary.

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_05]: It's Carl who saves her.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's the start of their journey.

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_05]: And as I've said, Laurie has literally just died.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick has only just held Judith after a few days of grief.

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_05]: And Michonne, his future wife and Judith's true mother, appears like a mirage with baby

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_05]: formula. The writers probably did not intend this at the time, but damn, it blows me away.

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I love their subsequent interactions and Michonne is a wounded, frightened cat.

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: But as soon as she sees Carl hugging Rick and the baby and how they're all a family,

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_05]: she can see how different they are to Woodbury.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Rick isn't the governor.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Watching these episodes back, though, gives me a sense of peace that Michonne is there

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_05]: with Rick from that moment on.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_05]: She never leaves his side for long and becomes his true confidant and supporter.

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is an incredible episode on that.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_05]: JMO, we are of a mind.

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I completely agree.

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 percent. And I didn't even think about it.

[01:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But I love that point that Michonne, her future mother, brought her formula.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Here's a message from Carly.

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, Jason and Lucy.

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_07]: This is Carly in Santa Fe and I wanted to comment on The Walking Dead.

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_07]: The the difference between Michonne's welcome to the prison and her welcome to

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Woodbury, you know, in Woodbury, there's a clean, well-stocked infirmary, have a hot

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_07]: shower, some fresh clothes.

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_07]: And yes, you can leave whenever you want.

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_07]: We'll even give you a car loaded up with supplies.

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_07]: And then in the prison, it's like, here's a locked room.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's dirty.

[01:23:35] [SPEAKER_07]: We're not going to let you leave.

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_07]: And yet she chooses to stay with the prison people.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's I thought that was funny.

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. And then when Carol returns and Rick sees her and it's such a beautiful

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_07]: moment and she sees the baby and she realizes that Laurie didn't survive the birth and

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_07]: she comforts Rick.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_07]: And then you see poor Carl and his reaction and someone needs to hug that boy.

[01:24:06] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm now keeping track.

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_07]: How many days has Carl gone since his mom died without a hug?

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Boy, I also wanted to say that I never saw the chemistry between Michonne and Rick

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_07]: until, you know, after they're together.

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_07]: I just didn't see it leading up.

[01:24:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And I know a lot of people, there's a lot of disagreement about that.

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_07]: It always seemed to me that the connection started with Michonne and Carl.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm going to be watching for that, too, going forward.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Like Carl is the one who's like, dad, should we save her?

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, and I just I just want to be looking for that.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Like who's connecting with Michonne first?

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it going to be Carl or is it going to be Rick?

[01:24:44] [SPEAKER_07]: So anyway, enjoying the rewatch.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks, you guys.

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Carly.

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I see it here.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I see them facing off and there's something between them and it's you could even.

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of label it as that undefined energy that happens between two people at first, when

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they first meet, you know, when you first meet someone and you're single and you don't

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: know, am I going to hate this person or there's something going on here?

[01:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it?

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to explore.

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It feels a bit like that to me.

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a there's a sizzle.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_05]: There's something.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Rachel Teal Edward says, as someone who has had the Funko Pops of Michonne and her two

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: quote pets on display in my home for years now, I never thought of the potential allusions

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to slavery before the discussion last week.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They were remain on my Walking Dead display shelf next to Daryl and Beth because they

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: remind me of Michonne's epic entrance into the Walking Dead world.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: She's a symbol of serious female strength and intelligence and a character of great

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: depth. And her pets are part of that.

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They're a big part of her origin story.

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that if we narrow our focus solely to her pets, we see provocative imagery

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of two dismembered black walkers on a leash.

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But we have to look at the full context.

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, we're not being fair to the story, the characters or the writers.

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: These were two men she knew and loved pre-apocalypse, but who are also responsible for

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the death of her son in a refugee camp.

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: She explains in season four, episode 16, quote, I was coming back from a run.

[01:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw the fences were down, heard the moans.

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was over. Mike and Terry, they were high when it happened.

[01:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They were bit. I could have stopped it, could have killed them, but I let them turn.

[01:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I made it so they couldn't bite, couldn't scratch.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I tied chains around their necks.

[01:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It was insane. It was sick.

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It felt like what I deserved, dragging them around so that I would always know.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I found out that they kept me safe.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They hid me. I was just another monster.

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was. I was gone for a long time.

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: She wasn't just punishing them.

[01:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: She was punishing herself by keeping them.

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much going on here psychologically for Michonne.

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: To me, it seemed like a disservice to Michonne to focus on racial implications in

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the context of her pets.

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a much broader, more complex and interesting picture to look at, but much

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: love to Karen. And I'm certainly interested in the, in the perspectives of other

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Zed heads. And I noticed Karen and Rachel had a nice back and forth about this

[01:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: online. We're pretty complimentary to each other.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But before I go on to the rest of Rachel's message talking about this episode, is

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: there anything that you wanted to say about any of that or no?

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, well, I just I really respected what Karen brought to the discussion.

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_05]: And I feel that like, yeah, it's difficult, isn't it?

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_05]: It's such an iconic piece of show iconography.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_05]: But there is inherently a link between the

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_05]: enslavement of people of colour and chains and being held in chains and being, you

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_05]: know. That being part of many of the atrocities and violent

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_05]: acts that have happened to black bodies over the years.

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think one of the bits of the conversation you had last week that really

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_05]: interested me was this idea of violence against

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_05]: black bodies and elements of sort of exploitation or black

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_05]: exploitation, as some people call it.

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think one of the questions we come to a lot on the show, whether it's about

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_05]: the idea of the kill your gaze trope of queer people being killed off or

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_05]: the idea of too many men of colour being killed off on the show in quick succession

[01:28:26] [SPEAKER_05]: is this idea that like, but in real life anyone can die.

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_05]: So we should see black people dying.

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_05]: We should see queer people dying.

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_05]: We should see everyone dying to an extent.

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, I think in a perfectly equitable and equal world, that is true.

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think what we come up against with things like Michonne's pets and when people

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_05]: raise concerns about that is there is definitely room for the context that I think

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Rachel's put across really eloquently there.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think what Karen's friend was speaking to is it's a wonderful

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_05]: thing to think that anyone can do anything or have

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_05]: anything done to them in media because we are all equal.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_05]: But the truth is, there is a vast history of imbalance with black bodies, queer

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_05]: bodies, marginalised bodies and the things that have happened to them that simply

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_05]: haven't happened to you or to me as white

[01:29:21] [SPEAKER_05]: cisgendered people.

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's something that I don't think we're at a place yet where the playing

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_05]: field is equal. I don't know if we ever will be.

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think when people raise those concerns, it is valid.

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_05]: To listen and to consider them as Rachel has done.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not this is not me going, Rachel, you didn't listen by all means.

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_05]: You actually did listen and you're engaging with it so respectfully here.

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_05]: But there does also come a point, I think for me where I have to say.

[01:29:48] [SPEAKER_05]: My opinion on this is not informed by the perspective of someone who's been more

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_05]: directly affected by it.

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_05]: To me, I don't think Kirkman set out to be racist.

[01:29:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I think Kirkman was a man in his 20s writing a comic who.

[01:30:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Came upon a cool, impactful image for the kind of comic

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_05]: he wanted to portray.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd be interested to ask Kirkman now what he thinks about it.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Like that said, I don't think he's a bad person.

[01:30:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think he's evil.

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not like I will never read anything he's written again because he has he is a

[01:30:22] [SPEAKER_05]: writer who has said there are things I regret doing or things like I remember once

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I think he was talking about Rick and Michonne.

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like didn't even really cross my mind in the comics.

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I kind of wish it had.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it would be interesting to talk to him about that.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think also what you said about Denae and her perspective on it is super

[01:30:38] [SPEAKER_05]: interesting. So I think there's a big conversation to be had about it.

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_05]: And I can I simultaneously respect Rachel's point, but I also respect

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Karen's friends right to not want to engage with the piece of media that upsets them

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_05]: like that.

[01:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And I said my thoughts

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: about it last time and I don't want to go into a whole other thing now.

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still thinking about it, but you know,

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to make too much of this podcast about this.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do want to say that I just think one of the things about podcast

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that I love is that we talk about this kind of stuff and

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's kind of some people don't like hearing about serious things or

[01:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm triggering things or things that are hot button issues.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think what I love is that we all talk about it.

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We try to think we respect each other.

[01:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And even when we don't agree, this is my favorite part.

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We're OK with that. Like, it's OK to talk about this kind of stuff and not agree

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think it gets us all thinking and honing our own thoughts about it.

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And it also just reinforces the idea that we don't all have to agree

[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on everything to get along, you know,

[01:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you do have to agree on everything to get along,

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: we're not going to get along and I want to get along.

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's just heartening to me to actually bring some tough issues like this

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: out and talk about them.

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're listening to this and you don't like that we do this, well,

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's pretty core to who we are. So, um,

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: sorry, but maybe we're just not for you.

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't like it when we talk about this kind of stuff.

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm hmm. Yeah, can agree more.

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, so Rachel continues on to when the dead come knocking.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I was so emotional watching the entire prison sequence.

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I was tearful watching Carol reunite with the gang,

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: meet Judith and find out she lost one of her best friends.

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Michonne's first scenes with the group were emotional for me, too, though.

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: She's observing the group closely through this reunion,

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: recognizing that these people are much different from those in Woodbury.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I cringe at Rick and Daryl's aggressive methods of trying to get answers out of

[01:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: her. But the same empty. Yeah, me too.

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But the same empty look is still in Rick's eyes.

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just not fully there yet. Maybe she's helping wake him up.

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: She was cooperating, though. The aggression was so unnecessary.

[01:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. The moment of Carl eyeing her menacingly with his fingers hovering over

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: his gun made me smile thinking of what their relationship becomes.

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Beth steps up. I should have just cut that sentence off.

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: The moment of Carl eyeing her menacingly with his fingers hovering over his gun

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: made me smile. Beth steps up and says

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: she'll go fight, which brings me joy because it's another small hint of how far

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: she's come. Michonne genuinely thanks Herschel for tending to her wound.

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And we see a glimpse of a softer side of her that continues in the way she

[01:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: interacts with Beth.

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So many of our favorite relationships are just barely beginning to form.

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much story left to tell. Watching it unfold brings me so much joy.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: The scenes with Maggie and Glenn are hard to watch.

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: This might be Glenn's final step into manhood. I like that.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Fully leaving behind the carefree childlike version of himself that we were first

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: introduced to. What a badass.

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The governor turns my stomach as he so quickly shifts from quote,

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone will be fine. I promise to sexually assaulting Maggie.

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We all know what he would have done if it were the comic. Jason,

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I disagree with you regarding what he wants from Andrea. He's antisocial,

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: AKA a psychopath.

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's not interested in forming real lasting human connections.

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He has no intention of marrying Andrea.

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He's using her and toying with her for his own personal gain and pleasure.

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting. I will have to, um,

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: keep watching and see if I think you're right on that because

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it's,

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it's been more of a theory than what I really think that he's trying to find a

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: replacement mother for Penny. So yeah,

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe I'm wrong about that and you're right. Um, anyway, he's using her and toying.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I got it.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think seeing the other woman in his bed a few episodes ago is indicative of

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: his habits. Yeah, maybe.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure he gets off on getting women to fall for him.

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that she might be useful in some way is an added bonus for him and

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: manipulating her feelings for him means he can use her however he wants.

[01:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I agree with that part. Everyone is dispensable to end on a positive note.

[01:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hoping you use the conversation between Rick and Carl about naming Judith

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: as the lead in for this week's episode for Judith's sake and for the way Rick

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: says ass kicker, which made me laugh out loud. Welcome back, Lucy Hart.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. That was great. Rachel, thank you for writing in as always. Um,

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: we got two messages from Renee because, uh,

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: her last one came in a little bit late and I'm going to plan both.

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the first one. This is about this week's episode.

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi guys. It's me calling in about the walking dead. First off,

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to address what Karen was talking about on the last episode pertaining to

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Michonne having the two black men in chains.

[01:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Now for me that did not bother me at all.

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I can understand now how that would affect, um,

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: black people.

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the time I did not pay that any attention because my thought process was

[01:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that she,

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that was her baby's father and her,

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: his friend and they were supposed to been watching the baby doing a zombie

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: apocalypse and she comes back and her baby is dead and she just lost it.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: She went berserk and it didn't matter who it was. They can get it.

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: If it was Rick, he would, he would have been in chains as well.

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do understand how that could trigger a black person.

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Now for me, I have heard that a walking dead,

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of shows that I like are,

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: they are not diverse enough. I have heard that.

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I had definitely have. And now a lot of my family and friends don't watch the same

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: type of shows that I watch.

[01:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's because they feel like it more so is like for nerds.

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it's, first of all, if they never watched it,

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't know if it's diverse or not. You know? So it more,

[01:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the problem, the problem more so is, is corny.

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's not going to happen. Why would you want to watch stuff like that?

[01:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But the people that have watched it,

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the few they have mentioned to me that it's not a lot of black characters.

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have heard black people say, why do my show look like that?

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Why do they have her looking like that? And even Denyce,

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they did an interview with Denyce and she talked about coming to not being able to

[01:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: come to work with cute clothes on or, you know, looking cute because it's black

[01:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: women. That's now we, we love to get cute. We love to dress up.

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We love our hair to look nice, which for me, this is,

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I know this is superficial and I have mentioned it before.

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like my show's hair. Matter of fact,

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like any of the black women, women here on The Walking Dead.

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: All the black women here looked a mess from Sasha to the black lady in

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Woodbury, the very first black lady we was introduced to.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do not understand why they hair had to look like that.

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do realize that just the Georgia heat, I live in Georgia.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know black women here can look much better than that. Like it didn't.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And like Lucy mentioned on the podcast before,

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: she was saying that Lori, once Lori got to Woodbury,

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: she got her some rest. Lori curls was popping. Her hair was blowing in the wind.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Not Lori. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm talking about Lori.

[01:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I meant Andrea because I'm thinking about Lori as well because Lori's hair always

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: looked like she was in a Pantene commercial. But Andrea hair,

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Lucy was saying Andrea's hair was, you know, was blowing in the wind.

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It was popping, which it was.

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not understanding why the black women here had to look like that.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, did I think it was racist or, you know, they had some type,

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it was something they had against black women. Of course not.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think they just did not find the right, right hairstylist,

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: which I don't understand that in Georgia, in Atlanta, come on now,

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: we got some bad hairstylists. So they definitely could have found one.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The House of Dragons, I look at them all the time and I'm like, listen to talk.

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Targaryens, they wear lace fronts. They lace fronts are laid.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: When I say laid, they are laid no glue, none.

[01:39:29] [SPEAKER_00]: No glue is visible. And even in the ones who live,

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Michonne's glue was visible when she was laying in the bed with Rick,

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: which I shouldn't even mention that because you know what?

[01:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna forget all about Michonne's glue and start thinking about Rick.

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't even mention the ones who live like, I'm telling you,

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: episode four lives freaking rent free in my head.

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Every time I even think about it, I just Rick Grimes, Lord, Rick Grimes,

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Rick Grimes, Rick Grimes, Lord have mercy. Jesus.

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. I'm sorry. I had to go off on a tangent. I'm so sorry. Oh,

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and also I wanted to address the young lady that wrote in.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: She was saying that Michonne sounded simple minded because of her accent.

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Now that kind of offended me.

[01:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That made me feel some type of way because I'm from Georgia. I live in Georgia.

[01:40:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a Georgia accent and she was saying that when Michonne was laying out her

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: plan about going to the coast and finding a boat that she found it simple and

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: uneducated. Now I'm trying to figure out how does the accent,

[01:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: a Georgia accent makes you sound simple and uneducated.

[01:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said,

[01:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of offended me and that's one of the reasons why I did not want to

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: call in because I didn't want to be judged on my accent because I am Southern

[01:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and not only am I Southern, I am Geechee,

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: but so many people that call in have an accent and I never heard anyone say that

[01:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: someone was simple and uneducated. So yeah, like I said,

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of offended me and I was kind of taken aback by it and I don't

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: understand that because like I said, they're in Georgia.

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody has an accent. Darrell got an accent. Rick got an accent.

[01:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Shane damn sure got an accent. I mean all of them killed the accent.

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They have the accent down pat. So what makes Michonne sound simple minded?

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure. And like I said, I did not like that,

[01:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: but already I will talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I never heard that word. Geechee sounds like a word.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure I should be saying, but what does it mean?

[01:41:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm so sorry that you felt that way Renee. Yeah,

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_05]: I had a shitty experience at uni with someone making comments about Scottish

[01:41:52] [SPEAKER_05]: accents, which given that I went to uni in Scotland was like very annoying and it

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_05]: sucks and we shouldn't feel judged because of how we talk.

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm glad that you called in.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I like, um,

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I love how actually as the years have gone by it's become more acceptable in

[01:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: society to just speak with whatever accent you have. I feel like, you know,

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, to have an accent. And I mean if you listen to podcast guy,

[01:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that we're good with that. We have a bunch of accents.

[01:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, here's some more accents with Renee's message about last week's

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: episode. I guess.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Renee, take care.

[01:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I have been MIA for a couple of weeks.

[01:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I lost one of my dear friends and I was in a slump and you know,

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to pull myself up out of that cause life is life being out here.

[01:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, why would this happen?

[01:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right after I made that voicemail talking about that I should be committed

[01:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because you guys are committed. But of course, you know, that was not,

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it was out of my control. So, but yeah,

[01:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: this is the episode where Michonne enters the chat and this is the episode

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: where it's going to be the greatest, most epic love story ever to me.

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was so happy. I'm like,

[01:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to have to call in for this episode. Renee,

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: pull yourself together because you're going to call in because I,

[01:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Michonne and Rick, like I, I love them. Like they're my favorite.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know another couple that I love more than Michonne and Rick.

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe me and Rick.

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely had to throw that one in there. But I wanted to say this.

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I as a black woman, I understand Michonne.

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel Michonne because my head is always on a swivel.

[01:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always giving someone a side eye. I don't care if you're black, white,

[01:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: purple, brown, green or yellow. I am going to side eye you.

[01:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to side eye you to death. You're going to be like,

[01:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: why is this lady staring? Cause I'm watching you.

[01:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm watching your every move because I'm always thinking something's going to

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: pop off. So I need to be aware. And Michonne going in with Berry.

[01:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: She gonna walk in there and she's going to stand on business and she's going to

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: watch.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not just going to believe that this place that looks like Mayberry is just

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: perfect like this. If it looked perfect, it ain't perfect. I'm telling you.

[01:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, black girl thing ain't perfect. Nothing about it's perfect.

[01:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel that way.

[01:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to prove to me that the way this place look, I mean y'all got food,

[01:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: y'all got alcohol, y'all got just, you know,

[01:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: plants, flowers, just, it just looks too perfect, too idyllic. Like I said,

[01:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so quite naturally my mind is going to be like,

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: something is not right.

[01:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel Michonne when it comes to that and this,

[01:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say this. When I initially was looking for a podcast,

[01:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: um, and didn't they know what, let me just be truly transparent.

[01:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like, and which it was, you know,

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast was like a white thing. Like a lot of white people do the podcast.

[01:45:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was looking for a black podcast on the walking dead.

[01:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course I did not find any. So I was a little leery about,

[01:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, checking out. Well I did check out a podcast,

[01:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but I was a little leery cause like I said, everybody was white.

[01:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So I went to this one podcast and they only do the walking dead,

[01:45:35] [SPEAKER_00]: nothing else. You know, everything has to, uh,

[01:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: walking dead, fear the walking dead, whatever, um,

[01:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: has any affiliation with the walking dead is what they do. So, um,

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: after the walking dead went off, you know, they didn't do anything else.

[01:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So they was talking to them and we was talking about game of thrones,

[01:45:53] [SPEAKER_00]: some other shows. And it was like, well,

[01:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: you can check out this other podcast that's, you know, really good.

[01:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: They do podcasts on, you know, all kinds of shows. And I was like, okay,

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: let me go over there and check them out. But the same way I felt about them,

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt about you guys. Cause I'm like, they're all white, but just like,

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: they made me feel welcome. You guys made me feel welcome.

[01:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I had to get over my own prejudice. You know,

[01:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not racist, but I do feel like I can be prejudiced.

[01:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like sometime I want to stick to my own, you know,

[01:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: for whatever reason, because I'm black,

[01:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I'm going to be more comfortable with black,

[01:46:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but I have been trying to step out of my comfort zone when it comes to stuff

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: like that. I have some white girlfriends, I have several, but you know,

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they're, I know them. They know me. We've been in the trenches together.

[01:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's totally different than me just stepping out with some white people that I

[01:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: really do not know. And I must say, like I said,

[01:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the podcast that I do the walk and deal with love them.

[01:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they're all white guys. They make me feel so comfortable. You know,

[01:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a very outgoing person. I love to joke around in my everyday vernacular.

[01:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I use a lot of slang and I want to feel like, you know,

[01:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you're laughing with me and not at me and not judging me.

[01:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And they made me feel that way. And also Lucy, you and Jason,

[01:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: y'all make me feel the same way. So I feel very comfortable,

[01:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: comfortable about calling in. And I, um,

[01:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but I said all of that to say that I understand how I'm a shown feel because I

[01:47:27] [SPEAKER_00]: would be, I would feel, I would have felt the same way.

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have been very uncomfortable, um, walking in and, you know,

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing this place and it's like this,

[01:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: but I feel like Andrea was wrong because Andrea and Michonne was out there for

[01:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: seven to eight months together. And they held each other down when she was sick.

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Michonne had her back as soon as she come to Woodbury and she gave her a little

[01:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: drinky drink, some scotch, some scotch or something.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And she forgets all about that. She owes Michonne some loyalty.

[01:47:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a problem with that because I feel like that she should be loyal.

[01:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The code I live by is loyalty. And I feel like, like I said,

[01:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: as soon as she saw the governor and she felt like she needed wanted some D then

[01:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: she forgot all about Michonne.

[01:48:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting some D because listen,

[01:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: if I see Rick Grimes, had I seen Rick Grimes,

[01:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have been wanting a D just like Michonne, but Michonne ended up getting it.

[01:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But after she checked things out,

[01:48:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Andrea did not do that. Andrea just believe whatever,

[01:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: just whatever. And I feel like she was not loyal to Michonne.

[01:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a problem with that. Just like I have a problem with Shane and Lori,

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: not being loyal to Rick. The code I live by is loyalty.

[01:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Those hoes ain't loyal. Peace and love. Bye.

[01:48:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh Renee. Those hoes ain't loyal. Peace and love.

[01:48:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I am glad that we have earned your loyalty. I feel very privileged.

[01:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to know who these other guys are. Who's this other podcast?

[01:48:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you like them more than us?

[01:48:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it the Talking Dead? I'm curious who it is actually.

[01:49:02] [SPEAKER_05]: They are lovely. They are. I would say they're even nicer than us.

[01:49:06] [SPEAKER_05]: They're Canadian. I mean, they've got to be nice.

[01:49:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Renee joined the Patreon group, which was really cool.

[01:49:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh did she? Oh, that's great.

[01:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Happy to have her in there. Renee,

[01:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I am sorry about your friend first off.

[01:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really hard. So I'm sorry about that. I hope you're okay.

[01:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you found us and we love what you've been bringing.

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I almost don't want to mention this,

[01:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but I know there is a podcast called Sista Speak. They do.

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's mostly black hosts. They cover,

[01:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: they've been covering a bunch of different TV shows for years.

[01:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they've been covering Walking Dead since like season three.

[01:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's also, I think that,

[01:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they do all the spinoffs,

[01:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but they've definitely did The Ones Who Live.

[01:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the Zedheads,

[01:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Christina has the Black Girl Couch Reviews podcast.

[01:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: She covers all kinds of different shows, including the Walking Dead.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she's coming up on a thousand episodes now.

[01:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a couple out there to check out if you want to look,

[01:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm not trying to shoo you away. We love it that you listen to us.

[01:50:18] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so hard to find. Like there's so many podcasts.

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_05]: So many, like it's unbelievable.

[01:50:26] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'm definitely going to be checking those two out as well.

[01:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. That is our show episode 593. Thanks for listening everyone.

[01:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Glad to have you back Lucy.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Glad to be back. We didn't even talk about our vacation.

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we'll have to talk another hour about that. Ready? Go.

[01:50:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, let's do it. I'm definitely not tired. I gave blood today. I'm a Saint.

[01:50:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I like, I deserve my bed.

[01:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah. We're going a little bit long,

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but it would be kind of fun to talk about what it was like to hang out and stuff.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll do that next time.

[01:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that'll be the Walking Dead,

[01:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: scene three episode eight made to suffer.

[01:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're going to have Kristen on as a guest.

[01:51:09] [SPEAKER_05]: No way. Oh, that's exciting.

[01:51:12] [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it,

[01:51:15] [SPEAKER_05]: you can find all our contact information at podcastka.com.

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And while you're there, you can check out our other podcasts.

[01:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You guys are doing Let It Rip The Bear and you're almost done with season three,

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[01:51:27] [SPEAKER_05]: We are. Peter's downstairs editing our penultimate episode as we speak.

[01:51:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. For the finale, we'll probably be,

[01:51:35] [SPEAKER_05]: we might not be as late as I thought we'd be.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_05]: We thought we were going to have a guest this weekend, but we don't anymore.

[01:51:39] [SPEAKER_05]: So, but we wanted to cook something really special.

[01:51:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So it might take us a bit of time. But yeah,

[01:51:45] [SPEAKER_05]: we're loving it and we can finally watch the final two episodes now.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Only like two months after everyone else. So, you know, no time at all.

[01:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I hate when they release it all at the same time we're doing Cobra Kai.

[01:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They're doing for Cobra Kai, they did three sets of five.

[01:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a little bit better because people are still,

[01:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they haven't just watched it all and forgotten about it.

[01:52:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They're waiting for the next ones, but yeah, that's been a lot of fun.

[01:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Cobra Kai cast with Richard and Rima and me.

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Amazing.

[01:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Jessica Batres,

[01:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabassi.

[01:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you so much, Jessica.

[01:52:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Jessica.

[01:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. That is our show.

[01:52:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for listening.

[01:52:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Don't get bit, Shana Sullivan.

[01:52:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Peace and love. Bye.