597: "I Ain't a Judas" (TWD S3E11 Rewatch)

[00:00:33] Onviolent vs introduction

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, Zed Heads. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm Rachel.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Rachel. And this is the cast of this episode 597.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season three, episode 11, I Ain't

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: a Judas.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I ain't a Judas. Do you say ain't usually? Probably never say ain't.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Never have.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You just did. I forced you. So that's, this is Rachel. It's not Lucy by the

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_06]: way, in case you guys didn't realize.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome to the show, Rachel. Lucy's out this week. Rachel's graciously agreed

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_06]: to step in. You may have realized Rachel is the same Rachel that's been sending

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_06]: in these amazing messages during the rewatch. So happy to have you on.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much. This is such an honor. I'm so excited.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_06]: You've been around for a long time. You've been a listener since way, way

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_06]: back and I don't know exactly when, but I wanted to ask you first, like

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_06]: when did you start watching The Walking Dead and how did that go?

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And then how did you find the podcasts?

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So I actually came to The Walking Dead pretty late.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I hate when people go crazy over a show.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I was very resistant to jump on the bandwagon.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And then my brother started watching it and convinced me that I needed to

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: also like get on the bandwagon.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think I started actually horribly in season six.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, wow. That long. Yeah.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. And you just started watching it right then at first.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Didn't go back to the beginning?

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no. It was currently in season six.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I started all the way from the beginning.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_06]: OK.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty much. Yeah.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Binge it over a couple of months.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I think it was because Glenn was under the dumpster.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And then if that was the midseason finale, I think I started watching live.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't remember when that was.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think it was because I remember.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, maybe it was.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I actually don't think we have to wait that long.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_06]: No, because I think it happened.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And then there was an episode

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: that didn't say anything about Glenn.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And then the next week after that, we found out he was under.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_06]: OK. Yeah, that's true.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_04]: They made us wait for a while.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, a couple of weeks.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I remember that because James, you know, Walker, Stalker, James,

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I was doing the whole convention thing and he wrote to me and said

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_06]: because we were doing panels with, I think, Steven Yeun,

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_06]: like the coming weekend.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_06]: And he said, it appears Glenn dies in this week's episode.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought he was saying Glenn's dead.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, like it appears he's dead and not, you know,

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_06]: the appearance is that he's dead, but he's not really.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So I was like, oh, my God, I just got a text

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_06]: saying one of my favorite characters is dead.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And you just said it so casually.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, God.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You've got to prepare me for these things.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm glad I didn't realize what he was saying,

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_06]: because then it would have been even more of a spoiler.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Totally. Yeah.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, that's funny.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_06]: So and then what about the podcast?

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: What did you find us pretty quick after that?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I think a few months later, because I like pretty immediately

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_04]: became obsessed with the show and wanted to talk about it all the time.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And nobody wanted to talk about it with me all the time,

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: including my brother.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's our bread and butter.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_06]: People who don't have anyone to talk about it with.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like my favorite pastime, which is why I'm so happy

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_04]: to be here and just indulge in it for a bit.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I think a few months after I started watching,

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_04]: because I was living in New York City when I started watching

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Move Back to Buffalo and I was like, I need an outlet for this.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And I searched around a little bit.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think you guys have talked about this before.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Other podcasters were just really negative.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And one in particular. OK.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_06]: It's bald move who are friends of mine, and I think,

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_06]: but they covered the market of the people who like to hate

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: watch The Walking Dead. Gotcha. OK.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I did not enjoy that.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And then just happened upon you and Karen and absolutely loved it.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And I actually went back and looked at my emails.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And the first time I sent in an email was like December of 2016.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_06]: So what's that? Eight years ago. Eight years.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Crazy.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I can't believe like a long time ago is still

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_06]: more than halfway through the series at this point.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, it's been so long. Yeah.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_06]: All right. Well, I'm glad that we're like this is your first time coming on.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, a long time coming and it's let's get into it.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It's The Walking Dead Season 3, Episode 11, I Ain't a Judas.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_06]: The wiki says and you probably already were going to talk about this,

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_06]: but we talked about the title usually early on.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_06]: So the title I Ain't a Judas refers to Carol telling Andrea

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: to kill the governor while he's sleeping and her inability to betray him.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_06]: The same way Judas betrays Jesus in the Bible.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought that's misleading because

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea would never say ain't either.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Daryl would write a girl. Yeah, right.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And I wondered if maybe Carl, maybe, but I don't know.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll be like, I ain't a Judas, Dad.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_06]: But maybe that was a deliberate misdirection.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So the title wouldn't give the ending away, you know?

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. You wouldn't think that Andrea would say that.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I know. Yeah, I was thinking about it going in like,

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_04]: does somebody say this in the episode?

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: It's such weird phrasing. But yeah, I didn't hear it.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe we have a live stevia.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_06]: He always says when they say the title, so he'll let us know for sure.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_06]: When we get to that,

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_06]: let me read the plot summary and then we'll get into it.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So it says in the wake of the governor's attack, the survivors begin

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_06]: to crumble, Herschel scolds Rick into resuming leadership.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Merle struggles to fit in.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like a high school movie.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea travels to prison to negotiate peace, but they refuse.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Carol persuades Andrea to kill the governor, but she decides against it.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Tyrese leads his group to Woodbury.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: So how did you find watching this one in particular in general?

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually enjoyed it way more than I thought I would.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Me too. OK, yeah.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't remember really what happened in the episode.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And then I think I read the summary on Netflix or something

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and I was like, oh no, are we just going to be shitting on Andrea

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_04]: the entire time? Yeah.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: But no, like I despite her and all of that,

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually enjoyed the prison scenes and

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_04]: really liked the episode.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So pleasant pleasantly surprised.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Me too. I keep saying this, but I remember not liking

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_06]: the second half as well, and I'm liking it much better now.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know if that's because I think in part

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_06]: we've gotten better at really getting under the surface

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_06]: of the episodes than maybe we were back then.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, I think maybe back then it was more just like

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea is the worst. Why do we have to watch her or something?

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. But I actually

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I wouldn't say I feel sympathetic towards Andrea more, but I do.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like I understand her more and I can

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I can understand where she's coming from.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Some of the impulses I actually admire and then some I don't admire,

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_06]: but I can understand.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And I might have felt similar things in my life before

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and then regretted it later.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, so it's an interesting watch, I think.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think, yeah, I mean, I think for the most part,

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_06]: her heart's in the right place, which helps me a lot.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't been very sympathetic to her and haven't really seen things

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_04]: as you have seen them in the past few episodes, but I agree.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Her heart is in the right place.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes she's like very contradictory and, you know,

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: well, we'll get into it. But yeah, we will.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think in a way, contradictory in a way that's human

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and not like bad writing. Yeah.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_06]: But we might disagree about Andrea a little bit here,

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_06]: which is totally fine. I don't make it more interesting.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_06]: All right. So why don't you start off with your first point?

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: OK. So I wanted to.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I titled my first point prison stuff and things because I wanted to

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_04]: check in on everybody in the prison

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_04]: since the cold open starts us off there and

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_04]: just kind of like see, check in with everybody.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Where where's everybody at mentally?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Not too not too far to go physically.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that one cell block.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_04]: With maybe a heavy focus on Merle.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, yeah, because he's the new one.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Yeah. Well, it's interesting.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we start in the same spot like there's it's almost a parallel scene

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: to one from last week, but Rick's there, Darrell's back

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and Merle's with them.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the dynamic has totally shifted.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I like how everybody sort of pipes up with their own input at first,

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of everybody disagreeing a little bit about what to do about the governor.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. Rick says we're not leaving.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Herschel says we can't stay here.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Maggie's concerned about another sniper not being protected.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Beth says we can't even go outside.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Carol, which I thought was funny, said not during the daylight.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And Glenn sticks with Rick and says,

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: if Rick says we're not running, we're not running.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Merle pipes up just so unhelpful.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, OK, I'm a little conflicted about this

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_04]: because he is telling them like the raw truth about the governor.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And like that was just him ringing the doorbell.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, he's going to we should have left last night.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, like we're all screwed now.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_04]: He could just starve us out if he wanted to. Yeah.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, this isn't helpful, but it is the truth.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So is this Merle trying to be helpful or is he just trying to be a dick?

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. I can't tell.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, like

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I was thinking about Merle a lot, too, because the question is,

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_06]: should they allow him to stay or not?

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think with Merle,

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_06]: you have to do your best to ignore the assholery part

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and then take the rest that's useful, you know.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And so the digs and all that just whatever.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_06]: OK, whatever. But what information do you have?

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_06]: How can you help us achieve our goals?

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think he knows the governor.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_06]: He knows the governor's tactics, capabilities and also

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he'll be honest because he's loyal to Darrell

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and the governor is now he knows the governor well enough to know,

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_06]: oh, I betrayed him. There's no coming back from that.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He's going to try to kill me.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So he doesn't have any motivation to lie.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_06]: He does. He will be an asshole no matter what.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_06]: But also, I just think that he could be very useful in this moment.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And then once they get out of this sticky situation,

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_06]: they can figure out whether they want to keep him as a friend or not.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, right? That's what I think for what he's worth. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's hard for Glenn to come to that because he tortured Glenn

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and tried to kill him with a zombie while Glenn was tied to a chair and all that.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, so we have Glenn and Maggie who are still

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04]: basically furious and emotional,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_04]: understandably, but, you know, Glenn calling him a snake in the nest,

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: basically saying we need to just turn him over to the governor and

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_04]: see if we can basically come to a deal with the governor by turning Merle over.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm just like, no, like Glenn, you're not thinking.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You're using your emotional mind, not your wise mind here.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And like even Maggie, like this is all you, you started this.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And I really appreciated Beth's response to that.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_04]: She says, what's the difference whose fault it is? What do we do?

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm finding in the rewatch that Maggie tends to be like

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_04]: the emotional sister and like, we all know she has this fire in her,

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_04]: but at least in these beginning seasons,

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm finding she's like reactive and emotional and Beth comes in with like

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of the reasonable, I mean now.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_06]: She can always be like that. You know, now that you're saying this,

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_06]: it makes me want to keep an eye on Maggie because the one thing that popped

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_06]: in my head is when she went and killed Gregory.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Oh my gosh. I was so shocked.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So maybe that's how she is. Yeah, right.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Something something interesting to track again. Yeah.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay. I was going to talk about Rick being outside. Rick,

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Rick, like not very present in this episode, like in this,

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_04]: we're talking about the opening scene.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_04]: He starts to walk away.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Herschel screams at him, which like iconic Herschel moment.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Get back here.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_06]: It was interesting because last week we saw Herschel trying to meet Rick.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Where is that? Be sympathetic. Yeah. You know, gentle.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And now he's like, well, that didn't work. So the gloves are off. Like, dude,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I trust my family with you.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_06]: You need to get it together. And he, he didn't give any consequences,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_06]: but then I knew you're going to talk about Carl,

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_06]: but Carl kind of gave the consequence. Like,

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_06]: why don't you just leave it up to Herschel and Darrell dad?

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. But I like that Herschel did that.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought it was great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_04]: That was like a slap in the face that maybe Rick needed,

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_04]: that, you know, isn't always helpful for someone going through a mental health

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: crisis, but it's the apocalypse and we don't have time for counseling.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah. And then he tried the counseling. Yeah. Right. Right.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Fair point. Yeah. And Rick's the one insisting on leading.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So he's going to have to do the job if he wants the job. No, exactly.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I love the callback. You once said, this isn't a democracy. Like, yup.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And then Carl going outside, like you just mentioned, um,

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe you should step down.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Carl's so stoic and cold in this episode.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And now that I'm thinking about it,

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_04]: his presence is a little bit like Michonne's.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_04]: He's just kind of standing there observing everybody and doesn't

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_04]: weigh in a lot, but this is like a super powerful, uh,

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_04]: weigh in by Carl. I don't get mad at me dad,

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_06]: but I don't think you should lead anymore. Yeah. And I, um,

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_06]: he says you deserve a rest. Yeah.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Like he just saw his dad have a mental breakdown

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and, um,

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and he sees that people aren't happy with like,

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_06]: he's not really stepping in and giving direction.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And so he's saying the pretty clearly reasonable

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_06]: thing to say, which is maybe you should just take a break for a little while.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Let the, let these guys handle it who are kind of, uh,

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_06]: needing some direction and seem to have some ideas of their own, you know,

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_06]: it makes sense to me,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_06]: but Rick seemed offended and he didn't really address it and he didn't

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_06]: take his advice. Yeah.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I was wondering what you made of that look on his face.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: He seemed like, what the fuck? Like, yeah.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_06]: I seem like he was offended to me, but I know it did. Yeah.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I think he looks pissed. Like, come on. Um,

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah. So then there's sort of the Merle of it all.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, which is the bigger part of this point. Um,

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if you had anything to add about anybody else.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Never know.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I might later.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so Herschel and Merle in the prison cell,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: that, that scene.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So Herschel walks in calls him the black sheep. Um,

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_04]: they have like a little sort of like friendly back and forth.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, uh,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_04]: he pulls out his Bible and quotes

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Matthew chapter five.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm glad you're on for this one. Cause you're, you're pretty religious, right?

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. Yeah. So you,

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_06]: you might be a little more in tune with,

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_06]: because this episode had a few references.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Okay. Good. I'm glad that you're on board with me.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. It's down a little bit.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. Um, so not to be nitpicky,

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: but it was actually just Matthew, Matthew chapter five verse 30.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, so what the wrong,

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_06]: why would you do that? I think that was not supposed to be a slide on Merle.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was a fault in the writing. What the hell?

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Why would they bother having to be wrong like that?

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I know. Yeah, I was surprised when I saw it. Uh, but okay,

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to read just more of like a normal

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_04]: English version. So I'll read verses 29 and 30.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_04]: If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_04]: be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble,

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_04]: cut it off and throw it away.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_04]: to go into hell. Okay.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So I realized just last night after watching this like three times

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: that on surface level he used this verse because

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Merle is like has lost his hand.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And so it seems applicable in that way.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And Herschel lost his leg.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: True that. Yup.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's like, and both of them, I mean the verse is saying

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_06]: better to lose a part of something than the whole thing.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: If that's the alternative basically, right?

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the case for both of them. If Merle hadn't cut off his hand,

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_06]: the zombies would have killed him. If Rick hadn't cut off Herschel's leg,

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_06]: then he would have become a zombie.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. It's like,

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_06]: that's the literal bonds them parallel to that verse. Right. Right.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Um,

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, they connected like two guys connecting over there.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Pretty peculiar circumstances.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Um, I just think, so

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: there's just a much bigger meaning to like the verse,

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_04]: the verses actually saying,

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_04]: so it's Jesus speaking in the gospel of Matthew and he's saying,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_04]: make better choices, basically short-term pain for long-term gain.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's actually in a,

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: in a section about adultery, but like the right eye meaning is

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_04]: referencing like lust. So throw your lust away.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's not going to be gratifying in the moment,

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_04]: but there'll be a longer term reward. Your right hand,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_04]: a greedy power hungry people, you know, cut that off,

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_04]: throw it away. It won't be rewarding in the short-term here.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And now put longer term. To save your soul basically. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_04]: exactly. And I just think,

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_04]: so I reading into it thinking,

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04]: is this also Herschel's way of telling Merle not to be a dick and to

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: make better choices?

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I think so. Yeah. See,

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_06]: now I'm so glad you broke that down because what I,

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_06]: not knowing the Bible, I just took it as,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and I didn't know Jesus was saying this.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So I took it as a metaphor for like if there's someone in your group,

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_06]: who's not being good,

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_06]: who's a threat kick them out to save your whole group.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So I thought he was sort of threatening almost threatening Merle.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Like if you're bad for us, you need, you're going to have to go.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_06]: But the way you're breaking it down, I kind of like it better.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_06]: It's more like trying to,

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and it makes more sense for something that Herschel would say that he's

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_06]: coaching Merle like, Hey, all these bad tendencies that you have.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Even Merle says later, I've done things that I regret. Right.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Pre and post-apocalypse that Herschel would be telling him you need to

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_06]: change.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah. I actually had the same thought. Like,

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_04]: is Herschel telling Merle that he's the eye that needs to be gouged out of the

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_06]: group? Yeah, that was what I was thinking. But I don't think so now that you're

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_06]: talking about it. I think it's more like he's doing more counseling.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. Yeah. Right. I think so. Yeah.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And then Merle like maybe subtly communicates understanding because he

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_04]: finishes the Bible verse, which I just want to break that. Like,

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_04]: what do you make of that? Um,

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved it because instantly just deepen the hell out of,

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_06]: no pun intended, out of Merle's character. Like he's in Woodbury.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_06]: It is interesting too that he said Woodbury has a great library,

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_06]: which sort of suggests that he never was into the Bible until now.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Um, while he was in Woodbury, uh, I mean,

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_06]: it's a little hard to believe that cause if Lucy was here,

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_06]: she could tell us exactly how many days he maybe was in Woodbury.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Would he really have time to be that,

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_06]: have that much facility with the Bible? But whatever,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_06]: does apartment of suspension disbelief.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Point is that he was looking for something, you know, he was searching,

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_06]: he was trying to find meaning in this horrible world or something like that,

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_06]: you know,

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_06]: enough to go and read the Bible and know it well enough to be able to

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_06]: quote it back to Herschel. That just blows my mind. It's like, Oh,

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_06]: there's another facet to Merle that I never would have suspected.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's kind of cool.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. I,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's interesting and it makes me picture like I picture him

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_04]: in Woodbury studying the Bible.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it takes a lot of reading and a lot of study to be able to quote

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_04]: back a verse.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Random.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. That's the body part one. I know that one.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Right. That one stopped with me. Yeah.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of like to think that maybe earlier in his life,

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Merle, he studied the Bible at some point,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe in childhood and adolescence or pretty common in the South.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Right. And maybe he lost it kind of like Herschel said,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I lost more than the good book for a while there.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe that's another thing they have in common.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Merle started studying it too when he got back to Woodbury, who knows?

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, very, very interesting.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Totally a different level of depth than we've seen at all.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you watch Breaking Bad?

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Only the first two or three seasons.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Stay with it. There's this one character called Skinny Pete,

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_06]: who's this just kind of pockmarked drug addict.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And one of sort of deadbeat friend who ends up becoming this great

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_06]: character.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's this one point where him and his buddy Badger are in a music

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_06]: store and Skinny Pete sits down at one of the electric panos and just starts

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_06]: playing this beautiful classical music. I just love that part. It's like,

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh wow. You never know about people sometimes.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So I wanted to mention also in that scene with Herschel,

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_04]: he starts running down the list of like,

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_04]: this is what the governor is going to do when he gets here.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_04]: These are the people he's going to kill. And he says, even the baby,

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and that for some reason took me out.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_04]: It was that hit harder than anything. And I know,

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I trust Merle to know the governor and just the thought of that was so

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_04]: sickening to me in that moment.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And then he would save Rick for last so he could force him to watch.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, wow.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Back when Andrea asked Merle if the governor was a good guy and he goes,

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah. And it's like, uh,

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_06]: you knew all that and you said that, but Merle thinks differently, you know?

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's just like,

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_06]: this is maybe the kind of guy you want in your corner was what he was

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: thinking or something like that. I don't know.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Who knows in that moment.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But yes, then right. Yeah. Like,

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_04]: or he's good enough for me in this moment.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's the brief interaction between Merle and Michonne after this,

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_04]: where she's exercising and he comes up and tries to apologize.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he does apologize. He Merle apologizes, um,

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and says I was only following orders. Basically.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I love this when Michonne said she pauses and she says like the

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Gestapo sarcastically and Merle responds so genuinely. Yeah.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly. Yeah. Like that. You got it.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_06]: It's so wrong and so funny. Right. Right. It was hilarious too.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think he, even to give him a little credit,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_06]: even he knows that that's a up answer, but he doesn't care.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_06]: He's like, yeah.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, I love that because, you know,

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_06]: he treats people with disrespect most of the time,

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_06]: but with Michonne it's like, Oh yeah, good, smart to work out.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't forget the cardio. And he's like, he,

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he's terrified of her, right? He's trying to like,

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_06]: make sure that they're okay because he's afraid she's going to kill him.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And, um, she doesn't seem on board. She's got this scowl at her face,

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_06]: but she's also not arguing with anybody that they should kick him out.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_06]: So I wonder if she's like me, like, you know, maybe we can use the sky.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_06]: He knows what the governor is about. So she's sort of just vibing.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_06]: As long as you're helping us, you can live. Yeah.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_04]: But I am ready to murder you if need be.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Without a split second. And he knows, I mean,

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_06]: the reason he's terrified of her at least one reason is cause when he tried

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_06]: to kill her in the woods, she was just so bad ass and she jumped down.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of those guys. Yeah. He's lucky to be alive. Right.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_06]: He knows it.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Are they like setting us up?

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think for they're trying to warm us up to Merle a little bit in

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_04]: this episode so that we start to care,

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: care and we're sad when he dies.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, yeah, I think this season is about that.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's trying to humanize them a little bit. Yeah.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Whether it works or not, you know,

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah. I had a point about him too. I think we covered most of it,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_06]: but it was just interesting to see him.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, we haven't seen him as part of the group since season one,

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_06]: episode two on the roof.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And that was the only time we saw him as part of the group,

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_06]: but it was a lot different now. Um,

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I was thinking what's changed. Well,

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Darrell's here and he's sort of a mitigating factor that can help keep

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_06]: them in line.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_06]: He's also much stronger of a person than he was then,

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_06]: right? And he's bonded with this group. He respects the group.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_06]: So he will, he knows that, uh,

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_06]: they don't like Merle.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_06]: So just him being there can help keep Merle in line. Also,

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_06]: as I said before, Merle knows that he's in danger.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_06]: The governor wants to kill him and there's just a clear hierarchy in place

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_06]: with Rick. Well, Rick's sort of fumbling,

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_06]: but he's supposed to be the leader and everything.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think maybe the most important thing is there's no drugs around to

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_06]: amp him up. Cause I really think that's what,

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_06]: was the biggest problem on the roof is he was high and just out of his mind,

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_06]: you know? So there's more stability potential for stability now than

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_06]: there was back then for sure.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would argue that it's in their best interest to like,

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of already said this,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_06]: but to keep them around at least until they deal with the governor and then

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_06]: decide what to do. Right. Don't you think?

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I agree as hard as it is for Maggie and Glenn.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_04]: They have to use some reason and understand that he could be useful.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_06]: But I totally don't blame them for being the way that they are given what

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_04]: they went through though. No, no, it's still super raw.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_04]: The trauma and yeah, they have every right to be pissed.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm going to move on to my biggest point is what's

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea thinking and what she trying to do.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I really just everything she's saying is she's trying to prevent

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_06]: any more deaths of innocent people, any more fighting.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And I believe she does care about the innocent people in Woodbury and in the

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_06]: prison.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_06]: And she was a civil rights attorney before the zombie apocalypse.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think she cares about people also as a lawyer.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_06]: She tries to find solutions other than violence, you know,

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_06]: negotiations. That's what lawyers are all about. Right.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And it also means compromise a lot of times on both sides.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_06]: But I also think as much as she doesn't want to admit it to herself,

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_06]: as Michonne said, she is caught in the governor's spell at least to some

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: degree. You know? Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_06]: She knows he's not good at this point.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Like when he's telling her, she's like, you went to the prison.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's like, we went there to negotiate and they attacked.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And she says, I'm sick of your lies and I'm not going to watch this town.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And my friends gun each other down. And then later to Milton, she says,

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Woodbury is an armed camp with child soldiers,

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_06]: cannon fodder in a war over what?

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And so she's pretty clear that the situation is not

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_06]: good and that it's the governor's fault.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I might disagree about that point.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, go ahead and say more.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I just, when she gets to the prison, I was,

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I got the impression from her that she believed that Rick and the gang are the

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_04]: aggressors.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well yeah.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean she got there and she said that he told me you fired

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_06]: first. So yeah,

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I think maybe she still doesn't quite get the extent of it,

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_06]: but I, I don't think,

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I think she knows that the governor is at least partly at fault because

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_06]: she's so frustrated with him and she sees him.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So I could see her realizing that the governor's at least

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_06]: partly at fault with all of this and maybe a lot at fault,

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_06]: but not thinking that it would help much to just say,

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_06]: fuck you man, I'm out of here.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That she still feels like she's in a position right now to try to turn a

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_06]: bad situation into something workable for all these innocent people that she

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_06]: wants to save.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So she goes to the prison. Rick was really rough with her,

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_06]: which is really interesting to watch how he threw her against the fence

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and the zeds right there. Yeah. Get on the ground and then says,

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_06]: welcome back. I love that.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_06]: And then, but then she goes in and says,

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_06]: where's Shane? And Rick shakes his head.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And at that point I would stop asking where people are though, like,

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_06]: where's Lori? What about T-Doc? Jimmy? Patricia?

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Like just shut up. Okay. Look around. Whoever's here is here.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't open those old wounds. God.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And then it's pretty quickly clear in the prison that no one trusts her,

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_06]: not even Carl. She goes, Carl, and he's just, look at that stoic psycho.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_06]: She's kind of like, you're all up in my business,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_06]: but you're okay with him pointing at Merle, which fair. Fair point. Yeah.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_06]: But I don't blame them for being careful because they know, well,

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_06]: it's hard to know for sure what they know. I was trying to think about it. Like,

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_06]: we know Darrell who might,

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_06]: might've noticed her in the stands sitting next to the governor when he was

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_06]: being forced to fight his brother to the death.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But you think it was mostly Michonne that would have told them anything.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And she says, what'd you tell them? And Michonne says nothing.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And then later Andrea says, you've poisoned them.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And Michonne says, I just told them the truth. So, you know,

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Michonne told them everything probably. Yeah.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. The details, the sick details that they didn't know. Yeah.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_04]: For sure. Yeah. Well, I guess Andrea knows now and it has not affected her.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, my guess is Michonne told them Andrea is sleeping with the governor

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_06]: basically. Right? I mean,

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and that I tried to get her to leave and she wouldn't listen to me and

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_06]: she stayed and she's with him.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So I don't just what she said to Andrea when they were talking outside

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_06]: the prison, like, and I don't blame warm bed. Yeah. Over your friend.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't blame them for being untrustworthy of her because untrustful

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_06]: because she might be casing the joint. Well, yeah.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_04]: She even asks at one point, Oh, can I see like where you're living?

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Why do you need to know where we're living? Yeah.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And she says, right. She says, Rick, I'm not an enemy,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_04]: but then she goes back to the governor and tells him every answers,

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_06]: every question that he has for her. She's like, Rick, I'm not an enemy.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_06]: How much ammo do you have by the way?

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_06]: So he, she's trying to get Rick to negotiate with the governor and he's

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_06]: like, no, we're going to kill him. And she's like, we can settle this.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So I do think that's maybe what she's trying to do. Then, um,

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_06]: then, um, she's like, no, or Rick's like,

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_06]: if you can't help us get inside here of no use to me. And then, uh,

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to talk about Michonne a little bit more in another point,

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_06]: but she says Andrea was under the governor's spell from the second she laid

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_06]: eyes on him and she still is. And Andrea says, no,

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm there because the people need me.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I'll get back to that. But then Carol, Carol,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_06]: interesting that Carol's the one who comes up with the idea for Andrea to

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_06]: have sex with the governor and then kill him in his sleep.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was wondering if maybe she fantasized about doing that to Ed at some

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_06]: point or something, you know?

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh dang. Probably.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Probably. Yeah.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so they, but then this confused me. They just give Andrea after Rick says,

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_06]: no, if you're not going to help us get in and you know,

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_06]: they're not even sure they can trust her. I mean,

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_06]: she does at least tell them, Hey, he's,

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_06]: he wants to start a war with you. He, they, all the people think that,

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_06]: so she gives them some information at the prison.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Then they just give her a car and a gun and send her back.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, what are they? They didn't agree on anything, you know?

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Like what's the plan here? And they said no.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Like Rick said no for negotiation. Andrea said no for helping fight.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So they just send her back and I'm like,

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_06]: they should not let her go back unless they have some kind of a plan

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_06]: because right now they just know that she's his girlfriend and she knows

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_06]: more about the prison. So,

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't think they know what Carol told her to do.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I don't think anybody else knew that. So that,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_06]: that seemed like kind of a plot hole to me to just let her go back.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought the same thing. Like what?

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_04]: There should have been some resolution of some sort. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Like make use of this somehow or if you can't then don't let her go.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even think about them keeping her. That would have been,

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that would have been interesting.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Just put her up like they did with Randall.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_06]: They could kill her. So that's dark.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So back in Woodbury, she talks with the governor.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think the governor is like, cause he told Milton to go ahead and let

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_06]: her go. I guess he did that just feeling confident that she would come

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_06]: back and give him, give him information.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. I was kind of wondering what his game was,

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04]: but I guess in the end it was just to get information,

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_06]: just using her as a pawn. I guess. Yeah. He uses everyone as pawns.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So, and she does, as you said, she says, Oh, they're all broken.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_06]: They're living in horrible conditions. Michelle and Merle and Rick are there.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's intel that she gives him. And I'm like,

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe that was just to gain his trust so that she could spend the night

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_06]: with him and kill him. But why tell him the truth then? You know,

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_06]: make up some lies.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So then I'm like, are you still hoping to work out an agreement?

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_06]: But it seems like at that point her plan is to kill him. And then,

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_06]: and then they start making out and I'm thinking the look in her eye looks

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_06]: like she's, you know, not, she's faking it,

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_06]: but I think she's partly into it. She's telling herself she's faking it.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right. No, she really is under his spell and she has some sort of,

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_04]: she loves toxic men. Like she does. It happens. You know,

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_04]: it totally does. Yeah. You, we would expect more from her, but nope.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Nope. And I mean, yeah. And I think,

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's more interesting to have characters who do things like this

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_06]: than to have everyone be psychologically healthy. Right. Yeah.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Then it's annoying.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_06]: It just gives you someone to yell at when you're watching TV.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, what the fuck you stupid. Yeah.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause then she can't bring herself to kill him.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And so that's like the tragic moment in her story. That moment right there,

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_06]: we just saw the moment where it's like,

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and I don't know why. I mean,

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe there is part of her that's like, maybe we should,

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_06]: we can still negotiate. But like I said, I mean, no,

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_06]: this is what I was going to say before that she knows at this point,

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_06]: cause Michonne told her that the governor sent people to kill Michonne after

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_06]: they let her go.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_04]: That her face after that was like, Oh shit.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_06]: That he killed that he kidnapped Glenn and Maggie,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_06]: that he forced Darryl and Merle to fight to the death,

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_06]: that he went to the prison and attacked and then lied to her about it.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_06]: That he's arming and training his people down to the 13 year olds to go

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_06]: to the prison and attack and lying to his people about what happened and why,

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, to get them to do it.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_06]: She should know based on all that that there's no reasoning that's going to

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_06]: happen here with this guy. You know, at this point,

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_06]: if she's still thinking I'm in a position where I can make work things

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: out so I don't want to kill him, she should know better than that.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's why I do think that it's

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_06]: wrapped up in her just being caught up in his spell too.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Like she's convincing herself that she can save everybody because

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_04]: really she, the bottom line is she doesn't want to kill her lover.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Yep.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He must be, there must be some good in him if I feel this way

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_04]: about him.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. And it's, it's just,

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_06]: it's hard to when emotion is involved, it often trumps logic,

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, simple as that. Absolutely true. Yes.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's all I have for that one. Anything else about her and them?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I do want to talk about her with Michonne,

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_06]: but I have that one as separate so we can talk about something else or

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_06]: whatever. Okay.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Should I do my case study in adolescence about Carl?

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Try to make it quick. Okay.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_07]: No, you don't have to make it quick.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. So moving over to Woodbury,

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_04]: the first scene that we see there,

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_04]: the governor and Milton are sort of taking a head count of their

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_04]: soldiers. And you briefly mentioned, you know,

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_04]: the governor says, well, what about 13 and older?

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And Milton says, you mean boys and girls? And he says, adolescence,

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a 20th century invention. It's a great line.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Such a good line and fact check. True. Yeah, right.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_06]: A little bit of a deep dive. Working in factories, right?

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yep.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Like the concept of the developmental stage of adolescence as we know it was

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_04]: introduced in 1904.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's my deep dive by the very first president of the American Psychological

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Association, G. Stanley Hall. And like you said,

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_04]: child labor laws, so child labor laws, universal education.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody starts going to public school.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Adolescents had newfound time in their teenage years when the responsibilities

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_04]: of adulthood weren't forced on them as quickly as they were in the past.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not going to the factories at 13 years old or whatever.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_04]: So G. Stanley Hall writes a book or an essay

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_04]: about adolescence and he calls it a period of inevitable

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_04]: turmoil that takes place during the transition from childhood to adulthood.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He believed that society needed to burn out the vestiges of evil in their

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_04]: nature and that adolescence was a time of overcoming one's beast-like

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_04]: impulses as one was involved in the period. All true, yes.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're in it. I got a couple, yeah.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_04]: He called the period a period of storm and stress.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_04]: The storm being the decreased level of self-control and the stress being an

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_04]: increased level of sensitivity or emotionality.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And he identified three key aspects of the phase, mood disruptions,

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_04]: conflict with parents, and risky behavior.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So as I'm thinking about Karl, as I'm reading through all of this,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_04]: that right there, mood disruptions, conflict with parents,

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_04]: risky behavior is totally Karl in season two when everybody was super annoyed

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_04]: with him. So moving on to a little more education,

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_04]: in the 1950s and 60s, Eric Erickson, who was a psychoanalyst,

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: he focused on eight different psychosocial stages of development and really

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_04]: solidified as a adolescence as a stage of development.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a therapist by the way, so this is my jam,

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_04]: which is why I totally indulged in this sort of section.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So adolescence is the fifth stage of development from age 12 to 18.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And every stage of development is characterized by a,

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_04]: quote, psychosocial crisis that could positively or negatively affect

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_04]: personality development. So in each stage of development,

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Eric Erickson sort of defines a big life question that needs to be

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: answered and resolved positively. And if it's not,

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_04]: then you're screwed as you grow up, as you go through life,

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_04]: basically. So person in adolescence is supposed to have the freedom

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_04]: to explore their interests, their values,

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_04]: their goals and create sort of a well-rounded identity,

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_04]: a strong sense of self as we all did,

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure at least most of us just kind of go into high school,

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_04]: exploring stuff with friends, right? Like maybe getting a job,

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe not sports clubs.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Social relationships are super important. Again,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: like thinking about Carl here, feeling accepted,

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_04]: fitting in with your peers. These are critical for self-esteem,

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_04]: experiencing diversity of thought and experiences as a way to help you

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_04]: form your identity and your values.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So like being able to disagree with someone and still respect them

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and the importance of conflict resolution as an important part of developing

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_04]: social skills as well.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And one quote that I saw that I liked related to Carl

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_04]: is,

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_04]: adolescence is the stage between the morality learned in childhood and the

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_04]: ethics developed as an adult.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And so if I'm relating all of this back to Carl as a 13 year old

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_04]: that we're seeing in this episode and the governor's

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_04]: knowledge, basically that adolescence is a 20th century invention.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_04]: We see Carl in this episode specifically, he tells his father,

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_04]: he should stop being the leader, which is a very, I mean,

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_04]: that's a mature thing to do for him to recognize that and then,

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, feel comfortable enough with his dad to let him know.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what's interesting about that? Just really quickly that I just thought of is,

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_06]: like, I think Carl,

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I think everything that we've seen from Carl is him sort of taking after his

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_06]: dad.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Then he wants to be a protector like his father and I think that's Rick's

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_06]: main character elements until now where it's gotten into a dark,

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_06]: his main thing is being a protector. But then when he fails at that,

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_06]: then he becomes reactive about it and not as effective, you know,

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_06]: like who was it? Somebody in this episode,

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Andrea told Carol that Rick's become cold and unsteady and I'm like,

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, that's totally true. And it gets worse.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the whole encompassing thing that encompasses Rick,

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_06]: but I think over time because he,

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he becomes less compassionate towards strangers.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess I'll put it that way. But anyway,

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_06]: I got a little off track there,

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_06]: but Carl I think is trying to emulate his dad by being a protector.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And then what's ironic here is that Carl realizes to be the best

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_06]: protector in this moment. I have to tell my dad to stop.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I love that perspective. Yeah.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_06]: But you don't agree, huh? You don't agree that Rick is cold and unsteady?

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I agree with that he's cold and unsteady. I just like Carol.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So Carol literally gets done telling Lori why he had to kill Shane and how

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Lori died. And then, and then Andrea says,

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_04]: he's become cold, unsteady. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_04]: She goes, he has his reasons, but ones I just fucking told you.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good point. I agree. But, but I think she has a point too though.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, she's just stewing on being treated badly by him. I think.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Carol seems like, right? Like what if he, if he wasn't cold,

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_04]: how would he be dealing with the governor? Like how would these,

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_04]: like eight to 10 people be defending themselves? Right. I mean,

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_06]: so looking at like the way Andrea wants to try to negotiate Rick is like,

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_06]: let's just kill him.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think probably based on everything we know that Rick is probably right,

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, that's a hard thing for me to say the right thing to do is

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_06]: kill someone. But I think maybe it is,

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_06]: but I think that it's kind of just by coincidence that he's right because at

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_06]: this point or especially as time goes on Rick's first instinct is to kill

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_06]: anything that seems like a threat without much thought, you know?

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And so what about when the time comes when he's not right to just kill,

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_06]: but that's just his reaction because of this trauma that he's gone through

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_06]: about failing to protect people from threats, you know?

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So maybe Andrea sort of senses a bit of that, you know? I mean,

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Tyrese certainly saw that side of Rick.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. I feel like you might be giving Andrea too much credit in this

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_04]: moment.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I can agree with that. Yeah. So I'm sorry. I kind of,

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of interrupted you. No, that's okay.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I like this whole psychoanalysis of Carl.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh good. Yeah.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's think about Carl as technically

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_04]: an adolescent in the apocalyptic world.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And who he shows himself to be in this episode.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So he talks to his father, he's on watch with Maggie.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_04]: He's the one who spots Andrea.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So like he doesn't have a different role just because he's younger.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_04]: He's totally integrated. His peers are basically all adults.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Even Beth at this point is 17. Like she's not really a peer.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Closest thing, which is saying something cause they're not really.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. In the real world, they would not be peers,

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but you know, apocalypse here we go.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So he, he carried, he carries that M4,

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that big rifle with him, which is so such a,

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_04]: such a visual little Carl carrying around the big rifle and the

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_04]: flak jacket and all that. And then at the end, of course,

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Rick deciding that he's going to take him on a run because he's ready.

[00:50:10] Right.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And kind of thinking about what the adolescents at

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Woodbury are like and Noah, the asthmatic,

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and we didn't really see any other adolescents,

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_06]: but you get the feel that there's kids playing around and stuff.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. They're just having fun. There's a school,

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_04]: like all of the normal life stuff.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So they've been able to indulge in this

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_04]: normalcy of exploring their identity and

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_04]: becoming friends with people and not exploring their values

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in the same way that Carl has been forced to,

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and not having the same diversity of experiences that Carl has had.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Except that also Carl sort of on the opposite side of the spectrum where

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe he doesn't have a diversity of experiences because all his experiences

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_04]: in adolescence so far are fighting to the death and survival. And you know,

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_04]: he doesn't have normal peer to peer socialization.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. If you're talking about like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs that I

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_06]: bring up a lot, he's stuck in the bottom couple levels.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Turns out pretty good given all that.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I know. And yeah. So like that's,

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I started thinking about Carl and in future upcoming episodes and then in

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_04]: future seasons, soon we're going to see him shoot that kid in the woods.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know, he's.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Makes more sense when you think about it through this lens.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, right. Like he, I'm going to agree with the governor.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And I feel a little sick for that,

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_04]: but it's the apocalypse and there's no time for the

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_04]: adolescence that Paul and Erickson identified

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and developed as a stage of development. It's,

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, your place it's with us. You belong here.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_04]: You are valuable. You're important. We need you.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Your role is just like everybody else to protect the group.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And part of me thinks it's a little simpler that way. So

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_04]: please just in your perspective.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I think so the governor,

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I think of in two stages, you know, stage one is,

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I have this zombie daughter that I'm trying to bring back from the dead

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and create this world where she can do all the kind of things that you're

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_06]: saying a kid,

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_06]: the healthy kid should and can do in today's society.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's what Woodbury was all about, recreating that kind of world.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's only around the edges. Do you need the hard, tough people?

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of like our country, you know,

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_06]: the army does that for the military so that we get to have these

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_06]: varied and artful lives and whatever else. And I'm thankful for that.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you. Anyone who's served for us to be able to have this freedom,

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_06]: you and everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot. I knew you did.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I appreciate it very much.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think that's the best way to do it. Of course.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to say that. Yeah. But, but,

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_06]: and then I think if you can't, that's the ideal. Yeah. Like you said,

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_06]: you just said it's the ideal and that's what the Commonwealth is all about.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And all the communities, you know, they want, they probably, I mean,

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I think depending on the security level of the community,

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_06]: basically that's how much you get to let kids be kids. So,

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I think you think about Israel. I don't know a whole lot about Israel,

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_06]: but I know everyone has to go into the military, you know, or,

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_06]: there's other countries like that too,

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_06]: not to just pick out one that's a hot button thing to even talk about

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_06]: right now. But, you know,

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_06]: when you have less security, then you need more,

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_06]: more people involved in it.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think ideally it's good to strive for a society where you could let

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_06]: the kids not have to grow up too quickly,

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess is what I'm trying to say. But is that doable right now?

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. I think, I think, well,

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and I mentioned the governor in two stages, like he kind of had that,

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_06]: as far as we saw in stage one,

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_06]: but as soon as Penny was killed by Michonne, well, zombie Penny,

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_06]: she was already dead, but anyway, in his mind, his daughter was killed.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And then his whole, like he's, he uses everyone as pawns, as we said before.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_06]: So before the way they were being used as pawns is to create this idyllic

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_06]: American city. But now the way they're being used as pawns is as

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_06]: soldiers. So that's why he, they don't have to,

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_06]: they seem to have the capability to keep Woodbury secure and let kids be

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_06]: kids, but the governor doesn't care about people.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_06]: He just wants revenge now. So they're all soldiers, they're pawns.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_04]: How the adolescents also were pawned, like in what way were they pawns

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_04]: for the governor?

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_06]: He's a user.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He is a user.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I like that because I thought about that too.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Like he was talking about, you know,

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_06]: adolescence is a 20th century invention.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I think it was on purpose by the writers in the same episode,

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_06]: do you have Rick bringing Carl out to go on a run?

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Yeah. Showing the child's, the actual child soldier. Yeah.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_06]: But they're thinking about it that way on both sides.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: You're right.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it'll be fun to see how Carl transitions over the next few

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_04]: seasons. And once he gets to Alexandria and tries to fit in with some

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_04]: peers and...

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. I was just thinking that like, I can't remember,

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_06]: but now I can't wait to get to that part again and experience it again.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause I imagine they'd be like, who, why is this kid so dark?

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. I remember him being super awkward.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Yeah. Can't wait.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_06]: But also I think the kids first come from Woodbury over to the

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_06]: prison next season.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's right.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_06]: So there's some interaction there.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_04]: The kid who plays with Legos. Yeah.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see that too.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait. Oh my gosh.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But let's see, Michonne's take on Andrea.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_06]: So Michonne and Andrea take a little walk and talk and Michonne's

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_06]: pissed that Andrea sided with the governor, of course.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And Andrea says, I didn't choose him over you.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I wanted a life.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And I can totally get that.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_06]: As I've said in Zombie Apocalypse, I think your goal is to find a place

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_06]: like Woodbury or Alexandria or Hilltop.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's the highest goal for most people not to go fight for your

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: life with your new cool friend amongst the zombies.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Survival isn't the goal.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Like, near survival.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_06]: You want a place like Woodbury.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_06]: That's what you want.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And so, and Michonne says Andrea was under the governor's spell.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_06]: And she says, no, I'm there because the people need me.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's where Michonne turns out to be right.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's both.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I think Andrea does want to help the people, but what supersedes

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_06]: that is her love of toxic bend, as you said.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_04]: In that moment, I just wanted her to own up to it.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It would have been so much better if she was like, you know what?

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_04]: You're right.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_04]: But also, and also these people need me.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_06]: But then it would have like the things we want to happen a lot

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_06]: of times just kill the drama.

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what I mean?

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_06]: But yes.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_06]: I felt critical of Michonne in this conversation a bit.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_06]: She's so harsh.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Like Andrea said, I'm there because these people need me.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And she goes, and what about these people?

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Meaning Rick and the people at the prison.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And she says, I'm trying to save them too.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Michonne says, I didn't realize the Messiah complex was contagious.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm like, Michonne doesn't know.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Michonne knows the people at the prison may be a little bit better

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_06]: than the people at Woodbury, but they're all, she doesn't know

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_06]: them that much more and they're all in danger and they're innocent.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a worthy cause.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think Andrea should be mocked for trying to help people.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: You know?

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_06]: True.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And she's in a unique position to maybe be able to do something about it.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Probably not, but better position than most people.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't like Michonne's dismissive of this there.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Then when she said you chose a warm bed over a friend, that always

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_06]: makes me think of my friend Chad, who I lived, we lived in these

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_06]: apartments right across the way from each other that were like

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_06]: mirror images of each other.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And we would just hang out at each other's places all the time.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_06]: His was a total mess.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Mine was awesome.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, that's beside the point.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And so we would just like hang out and have a great time.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And then he met his girlfriend who became his wife pretty quickly

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_06]: after that, and I almost never saw him and I felt pretty resentful about it.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but over time I realized this is what happens and you know, it

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_06]: could have been a little better than that, but, and we do hang out

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_06]: every once in a while now, but, um, so it happens, you know, you,

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_06]: have a period in your life where you have a lot of friends and then

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_06]: sometimes you get married and then you have a new life and you don't

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_06]: get to spend as much time in your old life anymore.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_06]: It just feels like that's a parallel, except that she happened.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_06]: She has this thing for toxic men.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying like Michonne theoretically should be more

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_04]: understanding of Andrea wanting a warm bed and yeah.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And wanting to meet someone.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_04]: A life.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And have a life.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And I mean, I can see Michonne saying, look, you picked the wrong guy, but

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_06]: not saying you should have been loyal to me.

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_06]: It sounds like she's feeling like you should have been loyal to me over any

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_06]: guy because I'm your friend and I'm like, ah, that's not how life works.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_04]: She was, she wasn't really petty in this scene.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Like so dismissive, so petty.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: It was kind of amusing, but yeah.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, Michonne says, tells her the governor sent Merle to kill

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_06]: her and would have sent them to kill both of them.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_06]: That's good.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Like Michonne needed to say more concrete things like that.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Solid evidence of what the governor is.

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But then she says, I went back to Woodbury to expose the

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_06]: governor for what he is.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And I knew it would hurt you.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, well, I think you went back to kill the governor.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know if you were doing anything necessarily to expose him.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And you ended up killing his zombie daughter, which is the one thing

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_06]: that would put him on the war path to put everyone in danger.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I'm like, you kind of solve everything with violence.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So that's why I'm feeling a little bit critical of Michonne here.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Like she just seems like she thinks, hi, I did everything right.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm so right.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're so wrong rather than, hey, let's work this out friend.

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_06]: You know?

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That's I'm glad you're bringing this up because I definitely think

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_04]: of Michonne through rose colored glasses and I feel like later

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_06]: shown, wouldn't be quite like this.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Like she would be a little childish.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_06]: She would be a little bit more like understanding of Andrea wanting

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_06]: to try to help innocent people.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: E yes.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, in this moment, I feel like being under more understanding of

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Andrea trying to help innocent people would make sense.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Like she's totally dismissing.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: You're right.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_04]: She's totally dismissing the fact that Andrea is actually just trying to help

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_04]: because it's totally overshadowed by you betrayed me.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're caught up in this guy who's clearly an asshole, which is true.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_06]: It's all true.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I like, I'm not saying Michonne is totally wrong.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not saying that.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And I know also that I just want to acknowledge that probably most people

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_06]: listening to me are like, whatever Jason Michonne's the best Andrea

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: sucks.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_04]: How dare you criticize her.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I get that.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just trying to find the nuance here.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree that she grows.

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: The Michonne that we're seeing now and that we've seen like thus far,

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: totally a different character than the Michonne of later years.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's probably just a matter of deny guerrilla, like

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_04]: figuring out who the character was, the writers figuring out

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: who the character was.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_06]: But.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And some of it could be just emotional growth for the character, but I

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_06]: she seems like they've found a little bit of a different character later on.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_04]: In this scene, it seemed like she was purposely saying the things that

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: she knew would hurt her the most, even if they weren't totally true.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Which sometimes you see friends do that for sure.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Like she's trying to hurt her.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_04]: High school girlfriends.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Sounds like you speak from experience.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Which side were you on?

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_06]: No, we won't get into it.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: That's my trauma.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So anything more on them too?

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Or do you want to, do you have any other points?

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that covers it for Michonne and Andrea.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Should we just touch on Tyrese and Sasha?

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_06]: I really didn't have much to say about them.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I just love that Tyrese makes a hell of an entrance every time he came in

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_04]: once again, I was just like, yes.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: There he is.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Hero.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I love when he said to the governor that, you know, all the

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_06]: people seem decent over there except for the leader.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Like he's just wanting to point that out, you know, and nobody cares.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was good of him.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Besides the point.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And just the way the governor looked at Sasha in that scene when he said,

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: gazes at her meaningfully for a second with his one eye and says, you can't

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_04]: be too careful these days.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And it just felt like him doing the thing he always does with a new

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: attractive woman, which is trying to warm up to her a little bit.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Turn on the charm.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I felt it in that moment.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Interesting.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_06]: That's funny.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And she, I'd have to go watch it again, but I don't feel like

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_06]: suspicious of him, but I don't think she's particularly like drawn in either.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_06]: No, she's just sort of like kind of concerned about the whole situation,

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_06]: you know?

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He was just drooling when they said they'd been inside the

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: prison too, just immediately turned on almost.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Tell me all the dirt.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, that's pretty much it about them.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I, yeah, I don't have much.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I like, you just, I like seeing Sasha on the screen.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: She's one of my favorite characters.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I think in the show she's so great.

[01:05:00] Yeah.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_06]: So let's see.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, now Rick, let's talk about Rick a little bit.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, I'm like, okay, what is his plan?

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, I'm just trying to, so Herschel's like, get, get with it,

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and then Carl tells him to step down as a leader.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And then, um, I'm just thinking, okay, so the governor is working

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_06]: out all his psycho drama.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_06]: If only he had said, uh, you know what?

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I had, I lost my daughter.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I was trying to bring her back.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't work.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it just sort of been honest about instead of saying

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_06]: these people are killers and we need to go kill them.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And he needs, or he wants revenge.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just like, he's lying to himself and everybody else about

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: what's at the core of why.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And I just think that happens with leaders, like their trauma

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_06]: informs their decisions.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they get everybody else wrapped up into it often for, by

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_06]: lying to them, I think Putin's probably had a really bad

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_06]: childhood or something.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, and I think just mentioning that in the context of Rick,

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_06]: because I think he's working out his own psycho drama too.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I already kind of mentioned this, but he's traumatized at having

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_06]: failed to protect the people that he cares about.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_06]: So now he's focused on killing threats without a lot of thought,

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_06]: but maybe in this situation it's the right thing to do.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess I already said that.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, what is he trying to do though?

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_06]: At first he's fortifying the prison.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_06]: He's telling them to fix the fence, move the bus in place,

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_06]: kill some walkers.

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And then later after Andrea leaves, Rick Herschel and Darryl are talking

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and Herschel says she's persuasive, but he's armed to the teeth

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and bent on destruction.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_06]: So Herschel seems to think that Andrea will try to persuade

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_06]: the governor not to attack.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe that's one reason why they went ahead and sent

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_06]: her back in the car, I guess.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Little thin though, but then Darryl says, so what do you want to do?

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And Rick says we match it.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going on a run.

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Match it, I guess means armed when Herschel said he's armed to the teeth

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_06]: and bent on destruction.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's what he was saying.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_06]: He wants to match if he's going out and run, I guess.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Find ammo and prepare for war and bring Carl with them

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_06]: on the run and everything.

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So I guess that's just pretty simple.

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, what, what his plan is, is just get armed up

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and get ready for war.

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's get into notes.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_06]: You go first.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_04]: The final scene and Tom Waits hold on as just a perfect song.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I freaking love that.

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I was so excited to see that Beth was singing.

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I totally forgot that the episode ends with her singing.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Such a treat.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I love Emily Kennedy's voice.

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think there's a version of that, an apple music of her singing

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_06]: it and I will listen to it every once in a while and just feel nostalgic

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_06]: for when this was all going on and there was conventions and everything.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like always in the top 1% of Emily Kennedy's listeners on Spotify.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh really?

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It's ridiculous.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_06]: She's great.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So stupid.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I love her voice.

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And the songs she sings are emotional.

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Very emotional, very real, very relatable.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Just, and they're catchy.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Super catchy.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes dark, sometimes poppy and light.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just, she's great.

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And just the lyrics of the song being about a woman who gets herself

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_04]: in a jam, like leaves her hometown looking for bigger and better things

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and wants her man to come along, but he refuses.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And she leaves anyway.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And then she finds herself in a jam alone in the cold thinking

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: of her hometown.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Made me think of Andrea.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_06]: That's Andrea.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I thought.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought it was really funny too.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: They cut-

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Beth is like, this one goes out to you, Andrea.

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they cut to her in the governor's bedroom naked right after the lyric.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_04]: What is it?

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: If you share my bed, you share my name.

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And it was interesting.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't often see a woman's naked butt on a TV show.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought the reason why they did that is just to really

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_06]: emphasize the intimacy of the moment that she's in this very intimate,

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_06]: vulnerable relationship with him.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And that ended up overpowering her common sense.

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good point.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a powerful image.

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_06]: It is, but I'll podcast start

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_04]: banging body.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_04]: If that was really her great job.

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm glad you said it.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Not to objectify.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_06]: What else?

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Any other notes?

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Just the walkers in this episode.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I was directed by Greg Nicotero and I feel like there were a few

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: parts where I was like, okay, that makes sense.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_04]: The walkers.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: When she's making that her pet to take to the jail and

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah, giving him the Michonne treatment.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Plus the governor's eye.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_06]: It's seen.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_06]: When he looked at, when he looks at his eye, I just think he's

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_06]: thinking, I want to kill Michonne.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_06]: She did this.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely.

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, it seemed like that Zed was feeling pain the way that the

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_06]: zombie actor acted when she chopped his arms off.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_06]: He'd be like, chop.

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_06]: It was a very gruesome scene.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_06]: But, um, then Sasha and Tyree show up and Milton says it's a

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_06]: diversionary tactic keeps the other walkers away.

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And Sasha points at the two zombies that had just attacked

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_06]: them and says, didn't work so well with those two.

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, that's yeah, this, I think it's so stupid.

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_06]: This whole thing would ever work.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Why?

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: It seemed even like less beneficial with her.

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_06]: But, uh, one of the listeners wrote in a little while ago and

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_06]: said something about, cause I thought it was kind of silly that

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_06]: this would actually work for Michonne, but he said it had

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_06]: something to do with like, she seems like the alpha and, uh,

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_06]: because she has them under control or something like that.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And so they respect that.

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, I don't know if that there's anything to that, but if

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_06]: so, it would apply here because when the other zombies were

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_06]: attacking, Andrew didn't quite have control over this one yet.

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_06]: She didn't have control over it until they'd killed all of

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_06]: them.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you see that?

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you notice the locker that came up behind her in

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_04]: the prison yard?

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, she turns around and like swipes her ass.

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He was like, and I was just like had a flashback to like

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_04]: one of the most, like one of those awful haunted houses where

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_04]: they're allowed to touch you and they just come up behind you.

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And you wish you had an axe.

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't ever bring me a rubber axe.

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Bonk.

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Nerf bat.

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I have a few.

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So the walking dead Wiki says, um, quote during his Q and a panel

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: at Walker Stalker con Chicago 2014, Greg Nicotero revealed an alternate

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_06]: ending for Andrea scene at the end.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_06]: He said he was so devoted to her character that he was trying to pitch

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_06]: an alternative ending, which shows Andrea slashing something off screen

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and it would be revealed in the next episode that she indeed

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_06]: slit the governor's throat.

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_07]: What?

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was like, I think I moderated that panel.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I looked it up.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I did.

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_07]: No way.

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God.

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: That's so cool.

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't really remember him saying that, but then when I read it, I have

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_06]: some vague memory of it.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_06]: I'd forgotten.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_04]: This rings a bell.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Told me that one.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So it was him, but anyway, that's what he was, he was trying to do that.

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_06]: He, he really stuck up for it.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_06]: They were, they were friends.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, Greg Nicotero and Lori Holden.

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I remember he was in her corner.

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, the governor puts this asthmatic kid Noah in training

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_06]: to be a soldier for him.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And, and, uh, I saw that Karen was the one she said he's four.

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_06]: He's only 14 and he has asthma.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And I wondered if they had intended for her to be his mother.

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but I was wondering too.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we don't see him again and we do see her.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't know.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what's up with that.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe he's an orphan and took him under her wing.

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, Carol tells Darrell she's glad he came back.

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_06]: That was a cute, sweet scene.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_04]: That scene was super cute.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't let your brother bring you down.

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Come so far.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's like, all right, what a fine.

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And then they like giggle together.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So cute.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_06]: But he, she says, I'm glad you came back and to what?

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_06]: All this.

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_06]: She goes, this is our home.

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And he says, this is a tomb.

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And she goes, that's what T dog called it thought he was right until you

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_06]: found me, which was so sweet.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And it just makes me think of her sitting there in the dark thinking she

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_06]: was going to die and then being saved by this guy with an angel wing vest.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Sort of like, yeah, yeah.

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Her guardian angel.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Couple more Milton rats out Andrea after, uh, you know, she asked him

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_06]: to keep it a secret and I was like, do I blame him for this?

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_06]: And my first thoughts were like, well, he's probably afraid and the

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_06]: governor's kept him safe and given him purpose, but I'm like, no,

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_06]: that was a thing to do.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause you know what the governor's like and your spineless

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_04]: TORP he is a spineless TORP.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody's saying they have a soft spot for Milton and I kind of get it,

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_06]: but I'm also, yeah, I do, but I, but I don't like that.

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_06]: He did that.

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that was after 0.2 seconds.

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the governor says good job, Milton.

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And I said, there's your red flag.

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Milton.

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: If the governor is telling you that you did a good job,

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_04]: you're on the wrong team.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I was glad that Andrea got to be back with the group before her end.

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause I don't think she does again.

[01:15:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was, she was especially glad to see Carol.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_06]: They hug you're thinking of her and saying, well, I'm thinking

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_04]: of that whole episode leading up to it.

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_06]: The like he's stocking it.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but Carol and Andrea hug and they were friends, you know,

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_06]: before Rick even came along and reminds me of season one.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh true.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_04]: That was a sweet scene.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The hug.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_06]: She says, uh, Carol tells Andrea what happened with Rick and Shane.

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And Carol says, Shane tried to kill Rick and Andrea says,

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Shane loved Rick and Carol says, Shane love Laurie.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved that.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The way she said that.

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess that's all I had.

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I liked that she got to tell Andrea why she was left behind too.

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: We thought you died after you saved me.

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That felt like some nice closure.

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that had been weighing on Carol's mind a little bit and

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_04]: probably on Andrea's too.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It's nice to get a little closure around things like that closure

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_06]: that Rick and Laurie will never have.

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_06]: P, uh, only on the walking dead would two guys connect over

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_06]: having chopped off their own limbs.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: But still only on the walking dead, you need to curb, stomp a zombie

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: just to visit some old friends.

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't think of any other show where that's true.

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_06]: You win.

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, we're back.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_06]: It's time for Lister Mone's Growns and Grunts.

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Tej Matil says, I loved watching Andrea in the prison.

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: The mix of comfort with each other plus the awkward distrust

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and hostility was fascinating to see on screen.

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_06]: That is a good point.

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, here's my friend.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of missed you, but you may be the enemy.

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, kind of are.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of are.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely an odd dynamic.

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Michael Anglia says, I'm trying to get caught up with you

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_06]: all so I can leave feedback.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I just finished episode two of season three.

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm really enjoying the rewatch episodes.

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Awesome.

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for reigniting my love for the walking dead.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll love to hear that and yeah, hope you get caught up.

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_06]: That'd be great.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Michelle Jones says, I like these episodes.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Season three is where I felt they were hitting their stride.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the hardest thing to watch in this episode was Andrea

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_04]: breaking the teeth out of that walker.

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, agreed.

[01:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I could, I had to shield my eyes.

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_04]: That's me saying that.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Michelle goes on.

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I also wonder what would have happened if Andrea had killed

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_04]: the governor in his sleep.

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_04]: We need a what if series with this show.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: What if they changed this decision instead and how would the show look now?

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, those types of storylines intrigued me.

[01:18:59] Yeah.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But no need to apologize.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be cool.

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's what this whole walking dead destinies game is.

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_06]: It was supposed to be that Nathan Eshelman played through, but it was not done well

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_06]: apparently, but maybe it's still interesting and I know Nathan played through it.

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_06]: So Nathan, if you're hearing this and you feel like it, let us know if there's

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_06]: where you can see what happens if the, if Andrea actually kills the governor.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: That'd be cool.

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Gloria Hernan, Gloria is back.

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yay.

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Says, well, the governor always rubbed me the wrong way.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I never liked him and watching this episode, knowing what's ahead.

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I hate him even more.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Can't blame you.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I truly wish Andrea had taken care of Philip when she had the chance in bed.

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh, ooh, ooh.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Talk about a totally different story we could have enjoyed.

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Loved hearing Beth seeing again.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_06]: She's very talented and Herschel telling Rick to get his shit together, to say

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_06]: the least so great to see Tyrese and Sasha again, love them.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Carl telling his dad he deserves a rest out of the mouth of babes.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Amen.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Missed you guys.

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's becoming a thing.

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_06]: People are now saying bye a lot.

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I know.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I like it.

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_06]: We have a call from Steve Brown.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see if they said, I ain't Judas in this episode or not.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello the cast of us.

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_05]: This is Steve and this is going to be for the walking dead.

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I ain't a Judas.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Sounds like something that Merle would say.

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Herschel harsh to Rick, but truthful.

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Truly don't remember how they get out of this situation here, but

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure it will come to me or it's going to play out in the episode.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Please.

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way Andrea is going to believe this that her people turned

[01:20:38] [SPEAKER_05]: bloodthirsty all of a sudden.

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_05]: What you need to do is find one person who will tell her the truth about

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_05]: what happened at the prison.

[01:20:43] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure there's got to be somebody on the governor's crew who would crack.

[01:20:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, so Merle knows his Bible.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_05]: That's interesting.

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Ew, that eye looks ugly governor, but ew.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, okay.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So Milton's helping her is going to help her make pets like Michonne had.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, breaking that Zeds teeth out.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, ew.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay. So I forgot about Tyrese and Shasha going.

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Wait, do you think they should not have shown it?

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So no, I'm so glad they showed it.

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It was like awesomely horrific.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: It was so gruesome.

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not like, I think they probably shouldn't have shown Glenn's death

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_06]: in such graphic detail, but we don't care about the zombies.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So right.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Totally different.

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Going to Woodbury.

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I forgot about that.

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And here, Andrea, she's made it to the prison at least.

[01:21:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_05]: So now Andrea is finding out the truth, but I know she goes back to

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Woodbury for some reason, right?

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, you just told them that you were at the prison.

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Ben, right?

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that your name?

[01:21:40] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And Tyrese and Sasha, this group.

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-oh.

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, so now we see how Sasha and Tyrese get back.

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_05]: I forgot that they sided with the governor for a little while.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess Andrea's going to leave and go back to Woodbury.

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and Carol's going to try to convince Andrea to assassinate the governor.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I forgot about this.

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Governor, how are you going to spin it this time?

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Because now she knows the truth.

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and of course in the midst of all the horribleness we have the sweet

[01:22:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Emily Kenny singing Tom Waits, right?

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_05]: On the specs between Rick and Darryl right there.

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_05]: He's telling him your brother's back, but he causes trouble.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_05]: You're gonna have to take care of him.

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And Darryl's I got him.

[01:22:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, naked Lori.

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Is she going to try Lori naked Andrea?

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Is she going to try to kill the governor?

[01:22:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Nope.

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently not.

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Well onto next week.

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Nope.

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Nope.

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_06]: That's good.

[01:22:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Brad Holt says another solid season three episode.

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_04]: It's easy to see now why this was the season where the show really

[01:22:38] [SPEAKER_04]: took off in popularity.

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd like to also comment on the Maggie Glenn situation.

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I think people are reading too much into the dynamic.

[01:22:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I've always seen it as two people who were traumatized, both

[01:22:48] [SPEAKER_04]: physically and emotionally, and then process the trauma very differently.

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Glenn externalized his while Maggie internalized hers.

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_04]: This disparity confused them both and kept them from communicating

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_04]: effectively and led to their temporary estrangement.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think possessiveness or blame or the patriarchy had

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_04]: anything to do with it.

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully I won't get roasted for this.

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Just to interject a little, I like this take with the exception that

[01:23:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Glenn externalized it and then projected it onto Maggie in some ways.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where I get deep with it.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, because he's not being nice to her.

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not like he's, well, he's pretty much mad at everybody though.

[01:23:36] [SPEAKER_04]: But so maybe, but still if he was, he could be mad at everybody except her.

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be great.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Brad goes on.

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_04]: With that being said, the shocking thing for me this time was that Herschel

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_04]: wasn't out for the governor's head himself.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Pardon the foreshadowing.

[01:23:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Maggie is his daughter for goodness sake.

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a 20 year old daughter myself and tell all her boyfriends that if they ever

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_04]: lay a hand on her in anger, that I will end them and take my chances with a jury.

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_06]: That's first date conversation, right?

[01:24:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_04]: He says I'm 61.

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't be in prison that long anyway.

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But seriously, he didn't seem to just shrug it off or he did seem to just

[01:24:22] [SPEAKER_04]: shrug it off.

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have liked to have seen a scene where he brought the two of them together

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and helped them communicate.

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Just my two cents.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, yeah, I think you're right.

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_06]: It would be good to see Herschel expressing some anger towards the

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: governor messing with his daughter.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:24:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I was also surprised that he didn't do more, but I guess they're

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_04]: adults and they got to figure it out themselves in terms of, uh, Herschel

[01:24:50] [SPEAKER_04]: in terms of like helping them reconcile with each other, but they were working

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_04]: out their own thing separately.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, he went to Maggie and tried to, he, did he talk to Glenn?

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I think he went to them separately.

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he did separately.

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_06]: He tried.

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_06]: He did.

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_06]: He told Glenn he was like a son to him and everything.

[01:25:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Rinaldi Kalikst who I haven't heard from in a long time says deep

[01:25:10] [SPEAKER_06]: exhale.

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I meant he sent this in and I was supposed to read it last week and

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_06]: somehow fell through the cracks.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm reading it now, but it says deep exhale.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm revealing the truth behind my absence in the feedback section, as well

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_06]: as the Facebook messenger chat open to Patreon supporters of this walking

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_06]: dead rewatch another deep exhale at the Zed head meetup of 2023 in the

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_06]: great city of Boston, which is a humble and unbiased opinion that has

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_06]: nothing to do with me being from that city.

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_06]: There was a costume party that featured a few Zed heads as walking

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_06]: dead characters.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I was dressed up as Tyrese and Jason was dressed up as Rick.

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_06]: This is all true so far.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I know Jason can be so engrossed as the character Rick

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_06]: sometimes when he's in costume that he can go overboard.

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I predicted that he would reenact the scene in this week's episode where

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Rick shouts unintelligibly at Tyrese and his group and tells them to

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_06]: get out.

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_06]: But after rewatching season three, episode nine, the suicide king,

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I realized I cannot run anymore that I needed to get this off my

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_06]: chest so I can be free to write feedback and participate in the

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Facebook chat.

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously I'm joking here, but I mean, I didn't do that, but it was

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_06]: only because I didn't think of it.

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanted to write in and say, thanks for doing this rewatch.

[01:26:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm excited to participate in the discussion surrounding the rewatch

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_06]: at some point in the fall.

[01:26:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Once I've fully settled into my move and do a new apartment and my

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_06]: new job, keep up the awesome discussions on this podcast and

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_06]: keep being the fun people that you are.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_06]: No hard feelings.

[01:26:34] [SPEAKER_06]: LOL.

[01:26:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And please don't get bit.

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Rinaldi.

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: That's so funny.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Rinaldi.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_06]: That was a fun time.

[01:26:39] [SPEAKER_06]: We all, a bunch of us, uh, hung out at this Airbnb near Boston

[01:26:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and kind of blast karaoke and all kinds of stuff.

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, awesome.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Billy Thompson says, hello, hello.

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll answer your question from last week.

[01:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: First, Jason, I have been listening to the podcast for a good while,

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe five to six years, but definitely not from the start.

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I often go back and listen to a lot of the older pods, hence

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_04]: the zombie kill of the week before I got a new job when I could just

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_04]: listen for hours whilst working.

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_04]: My plan was to be the top listener of the cast of us on when the

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Spotify statistics get revealed at the end of the year.

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Hopefully I can still fitting in the pod whenever possible.

[01:27:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Also, I think I got to two don't get bits lucky me, Billy Thompson

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and Bill Thompson.

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_06]: That's how you sneak in there.

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Just change your name.

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I've called in a couple of times now I'm thinking of all the

[01:27:32] [SPEAKER_04]: names, Mr.

[01:27:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Bill Thompson, Mr.

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yeah, I've called it a couple of times and said, Bill from

[01:27:39] [SPEAKER_04]: England, but find it easier to get my thoughts across by commenting

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_04]: on here whilst watching the episode.

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, enough about me opening with a bang, Herschel screaming at

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Rick and then Carl talking to him.

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I think these were conversations Rick needed to have to help him

[01:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: pull himself out.

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But when Herschel says the word clear, it gets me all excited

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_04]: for next episode.

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Same.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_04]: The way Merle talks about the governor in this episode, I

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_04]: think it might be a bit scared of him.

[01:28:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying he would back down.

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure he would to anyone, even Negan, if that ever happened.

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_04]: That, or he says these things to scare the others into leaving to

[01:28:18] [SPEAKER_04]: potentially save his brother.

[01:28:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm surprised the governor didn't think Tyrese and company were

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_04]: spies sent by Rick.

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I was thinking if I was him or vice versa when they

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_04]: got to the prison, I guess.

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, just seems too coincidental.

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Coincidental.

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Love the ending to this episode with the gang and the prison

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_04]: discussing what to do next.

[01:28:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Rick is back baby.

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure why Andrea didn't kill the governor.

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: The Andrea from seasons one and two would have maybe if she had

[01:28:47] [SPEAKER_04]: more of Shane's influence.

[01:28:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, because she loves him.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_06]: That's why.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Because she was all for doing whatever needed to be done.

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Letting Beth try to kill herself, willing to let Rick kill

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Randall initially.

[01:29:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe she thought of Dale in that moment.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's why she wanted to see if there was a way to

[01:29:06] [SPEAKER_04]: save everyone.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, sorry it's so long this week.

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks guys.

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Bye.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_06]: So funny.

[01:29:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, yeah, I think it's because of that whole codependent being

[01:29:20] [SPEAKER_06]: caught up in his spell thing.

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:29:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I think.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks Billy slash Bill.

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Andy Fisher says, dear J.

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Lou, I ain't a Judas.

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_06]: What a terrific episode.

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So many big ideas and so well written and acted and the

[01:29:35] [SPEAKER_06]: look of the show, dirty, sweaty, stinky prison.

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Watching season three.

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm totally sold that they're in about the worst place on

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_06]: earth and not on some fake movie lot.

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_06]: That's good because it is a fake movie lot.

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I ain't no Judas equals trust and betrayal.

[01:29:52] [SPEAKER_06]: And in the walking dead universe, an error in trust

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_06]: or betrayal can lead to death.

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I love the way I'm shown watches everyone.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_06]: The conflict of Murrow versus the world.

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Can you trust an enemy of your enemy?

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Can Andrea be forgiven or trusted?

[01:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Can Rick trust himself again?

[01:30:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Can Rick be trusted by his friends?

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's a lot about trust.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Who do you trust to be in your circle of your chosen family?

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, this episode reminds me of what Peter Jackson said about directing

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_06]: the movie, the two towers at the end of the two towers.

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a huge battle.

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Peter Jackson said that what makes the battle work in part is the

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_06]: long buildup to it as the orc slowly approach the lead up to the battle.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Reminds me of these episodes of the walking dead as the heroes

[01:30:34] [SPEAKER_06]: wait for the governor to attack and eventually destroy their prison home.

[01:30:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's a sort of became a pattern in the walking dead that maybe

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_06]: got a little tedious after a while.

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_06]: But, um, at this point, I think it was still pretty exciting.

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I love watching the heroes trying to get ready for the fight and

[01:30:54] [SPEAKER_06]: figuring out the best way to survive, finding the best way to live when

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_06]: you don't know how much longer that is going to be finding the best

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_06]: way to talk to your friends, finding the best way to work it

[01:31:03] [SPEAKER_06]: out with your enemies.

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Five pizzas in a ring.

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, Andy.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_06]: One more call and it's from Renee.

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, this is Renee calling in about the walking dead.

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: First, I want to say something to Claire that called in.

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: She was saying that she was having a really hard time and it was hard for

[01:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: her to communicate about the stuff that she has been dealing with.

[01:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Claire, listen, sweetie, one thing about it, trouble don't last always.

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to get through this.

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm with you.

[01:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This podcast helps me to deal with the trauma that goes on in my life as well.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're family here and I'm going to make sure I put you on my prayer list.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I will be praying for you and whatever it is that you're dealing

[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: with, that you're able to overcome it.

[01:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then to Chantel, thanks for sharing a little tidbit about Dr.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Stevens being Mr.

[01:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Abernathy's daughter.

[01:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I live here in Georgia.

[01:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, Ralph David Abernathy, that's a main street here.

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We love him.

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we honor him.

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, thank you for sharing that.

[01:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's one of the ones that was like, why is that lady here looking

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: like that Dr. Stevens?

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like it.

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I did not share just a little tidbit with you guys.

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a hairstylist.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're talking about here, that is the reason why I need your help.

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: My eyes, I don't care what I'm watching, what I'm doing.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: My eyes go directly to hair and also to the young lady, Carissa.

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for saying that you enjoy my feedback.

[01:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That made me feel really good.

[01:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy you guys feedback as well.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you this podcast really helps me.

[01:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I told Clare to deal with a lot of things that I'm going through.

[01:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This is like my, you guys are like my comfort.

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: The gym, church and listening to the podcast really helps me to get through.

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It really does.

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It helps me to know that there are still some good, wonderful, wholesome

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: people out there in the world.

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Tej, I agree with you when you were saying that about Glenn and

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: how Glenn was, I guess oblivious.

[01:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say oblivious.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess he don't know.

[01:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He just don't understand you being hard on Glenn.

[01:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You were like, um, people will have a problem with, you know, you're

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: speaking out saying bad things about Glenn.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So that allows me to sage way into what I'm going to say about Jason.

[01:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you something.

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Do not play with Jason.

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason don't mean no harm.

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He don't bother anyone.

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So for someone to get offended because, and feel like he's being racist.

[01:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, Jason, you know, talk like I'm talking to that.

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always talking at the person.

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me speak directly to you, Jason.

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: If anyone can listen to your podcast and feel like that you're racist,

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a them issue.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They're the one that has a problem because clearly you're not racist.

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Lucy's not racist.

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You, I feel like you guys go out of your way to make sure that everyone

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: feels welcome and inviting.

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys go out of your way to make your black listeners feel comfortable.

[01:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said the other week, the way that Lucy articulated that about

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the two walkers being in chain, I could never have done it as well.

[01:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And as eloquently as she did.

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So that right there shows you that she has empathy.

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason has empathy.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason is always playing the devil's advocate.

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, Jason, listen, forget about them people.

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause what I have realized, like Clarissa was saying that we tend to make

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: things about racism when it's not about racism at all.

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I was saying with Teague, it's okay for him to say something

[01:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: about Glenn and Glenn being Asian.

[01:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's not saying anything about Glenn because he's Asian.

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He's saying that this man, it does not matter what color he is, whether

[01:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: he's black, white, purple, brown, green or yellow that this man did not understand.

[01:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's trying to articulate how he feels that Glenn was killing.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Just like Jason was trying to articulate how he felt like Rick mouth

[01:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: was wide open and he just did not like the scene.

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to be more romantic.

[01:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Had nothing to do with color.

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, racism does exist, but do not make everything about race

[01:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's not about race.

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, Jason, they can kick rocks.

[01:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's their loss.

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Going about your business.

[01:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Y'all ain't welcome over here anyway if y'all want to act like ducks and feel

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that you guys could be racist.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So no, you're not going to mess with Jason.

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to go about your business because let me tell you something.

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm nook if you book.

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my personality.

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You ain't messing with nobody that I care about.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to run.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: This episode, I forgot to talk about what happened last week.

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I definitely want to talk about how when Rick was looking out of his

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: binoculars and he looked at them, he saw the show, saw the show.

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They cut directly to Laurie, the ghost Laurie that had to be playing.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like people played in our face the whole time.

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Now it could have been cause Andrew Lincoln did say that when him and

[01:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Michonne and Merle and all of them was in the woods and the very first

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: time that they all were together.

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And after they left from fighting the governor, that he, when him and

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Michonne looked at each other, it felt like it was just them in the room.

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that was when they decided that they were going to put Rick

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and Michonne together, but I don't believe it.

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe they have been playing in our face and the whole time since

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the very beginning of the very first episode, it is going to make Rick

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and Michonne Adam because Rick needs someone that's non-judgmental.

[01:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that Michonne does not judge Rick that whatever Rick has done,

[01:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: she has always been right there beside him.

[01:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is the type of woman that Rick needed.

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And that damn Andrea, I was so happy when Rick snatched that

[01:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: damn green cross body purse from around her.

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sick of that damn green cross body purse.

[01:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She irks my soul.

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And see, I'm talking about a white woman.

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care about her color.

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't give a damn because like I said, a couple of episodes back,

[01:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved Sasha at first when I met her.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But once she backdoed Rosita, she can kick rocks as well.

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Just like how I feel about her.

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel about Lori.

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I stopped liking Sasha when she did that because for me, Maggie, Michonne

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and Rosita are my favorite characters ever in The Walking Dead.

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Female characters, of course everyone know I love Rick Grimes.

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That is my boo.

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So, but female characters, I love them.

[01:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Andrea is oblivious.

[01:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like she, I don't understand her.

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when Carol was telling her about Rick killing Shane and she's like,

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, Shane love Rick.

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Carol like, and Shane love Lori.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like girl, what the hell are you talking about?

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Girl, go sit down somewhere.

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Andrea, you just act like you lost.

[01:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was so happy when Michonne said that you traded a

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: friend for a warm bed.

[01:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care.

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like she should have had Michonne back.

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to down this hill.

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you right now.

[01:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know I have went on too long, so maybe next week I get to tell

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you about everything else I had wrote down.

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I just need to get that off my chest.

[01:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I love you guys.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys are the best ever.

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I love all of the people that's on the podcast.

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that we are a wonderful little group and only on The Walking

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Dead would you run toward the love of your life and she pick up the

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: sword as if she's going to kill you.

[01:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Peace and love.

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks Renee.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Renee, I love your messages.

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I always look forward to them.

[01:39:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yay.

[01:39:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't wait yet to hear what you say about the next one

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_06]: with Morgan and clear.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_06]: That'd be good.

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah.

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for the encouragement about that stuff about racism and everything.

[01:39:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't blame people for being suspicious because you guys have

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_06]: put up with so much bullshit, but I appreciate it.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Renee.

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_06]: That is our show.

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Episode five 97.

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks so much for listening everybody.

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, Rachel.

[01:39:38] [SPEAKER_06]: That was fun.

[01:39:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Such an honor.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.

[01:39:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Just like the joy of my life.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's great.

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Next episode will be The Walking Dead season three, episode 12 clear a

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_06]: big one that's going to be, it really stands out.

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I know because it's so good, but also I think because it's somewhere else too.

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a little bit of a break from the monotony.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's so, so great.

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I can't wait to talk about it.

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to be me and Lucy and Peter who asked to be on this one

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_06]: a long time ago, so we'll have him on.

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to write it in or leave us a voice message about it, you

[01:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: can find all our contact information at podcastica.com.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts.

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_06]: One that's, I think I mentioned recently, but it's going strong right now is

[01:40:29] [SPEAKER_06]: the cast of the rings about the, the rings of power on Amazon.

[01:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So you should check that out with Anwin who's from New Zealand and has

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_06]: this great New Zealand accent and she used to do tours of Lord of

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_06]: the Rings sites and everything.

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:40:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Penny's on there with her.

[01:40:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Great team.

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And this, I probably shouldn't even bother mentioning this right now,

[01:40:49] [SPEAKER_06]: but I've been waiting for this, uh, alien TV series for a long time.

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, Noah Holley is the show runner and he also wrote and directed

[01:41:00] [SPEAKER_06]: the Fargo series on TV and Legion to favorite shows.

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:41:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And then he's like the author behind that and now he's in charge of

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Alien, so I can't wait.

[01:41:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm hoping to be able to podcast on that.

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not coming out until next year or we don't even know when,

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_06]: but, um, I already have a crew who's down to do it as long as I'm,

[01:41:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm a little worried that all the shows I podcast on are going to drop

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_06]: at exactly the same time and I won't do them all, but, uh, hoping to.

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_06]: So they, the reason I'm bringing that up is they just put out

[01:41:30] [SPEAKER_06]: like a little teaser for it.

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Finally.

[01:41:32] [SPEAKER_06]: It's called alien earth.

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw you posted it and I just now go watch it.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, it didn't really show much, but, uh, it's exciting.

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Ian Davies who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cavassi.

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you to Ian.

[01:41:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, we do call in shows every month or two and this month, I

[01:41:58] [SPEAKER_06]: feel like we need some, well, no, that's not the right way to frame it.

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I've just been feeling in a good mood lately.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I thought let's do a call in show where we talk about what's

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_06]: going well for us right now with what some great things are.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_06]: So we'll all take turns talking about that.

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of spread the positivity around.

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Corny, but fun.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_06]: That is our show.

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening.

[01:42:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Carissa from Portland.