604: "L'Invisible" (TWD: Daryl Dixon S2E3)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ahh!

[00:00:02] Ssss!

[00:00:03] Huh...

[00:00:04] On gets to go!

[00:00:08] No more lies.

[00:00:09] How did you get here?

[00:00:12] I landed two days ago from America.

[00:00:16] Really?

[00:00:17] Hm.

[00:00:19] I manipulated an innocent man into letting me fly in his plane,

[00:00:24] under the false pretense of looking for my daughter.

[00:00:28] We had to stop in Greenland,

[00:00:32] where he was almost used as a sperm donor,

[00:00:34] and I was nearly murdered by insane environmentalists.

[00:00:41] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[00:00:46] And why do you want to find Dixon?

[00:00:47] I came here to kill him.

[00:01:25] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:26] I'm Jason.

[00:01:27] And I'm Dina.

[00:01:29] Dina, and this is The Cast of Us, Episode 604.

[00:01:33] In this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, Daryl Dixon, Season 2, Episode 3.

[00:01:39] Uh-oh.

[00:01:40] So, learn Vézablé.

[00:01:42] I was waiting to see how you pronounce that.

[00:01:44] I am...

[00:01:45] I had to be reminded, because I took French, but I wouldn't have gotten it right.

[00:01:50] But then I listened to it, and it was L'Invisible, which I...

[00:01:54] Oh, gosh.

[00:01:54] Who knows how close that is, but...

[00:01:56] I can't.

[00:01:57] I'm taking Greek lessons right now.

[00:01:59] Yeah.

[00:02:00] And while I can read it, and I sort of understand it, my pronunciation is horrible.

[00:02:07] My sister-in-law is Greek.

[00:02:08] She's like, oh, you hurt my ears.

[00:02:10] What's the most common thing in Greek?

[00:02:13] Like, how do you say thank you?

[00:02:15] EFKARISTO.

[00:02:16] EFKARISTO.

[00:02:17] That sounds very cool.

[00:02:18] I like it.

[00:02:19] Oh, thanks.

[00:02:20] I mean, I have no idea if that was even close.

[00:02:23] You could have just made up a nonsense word.

[00:02:25] So, let's get into it.

[00:02:27] Daryl Dixon, Season 2, Episode 3, L'Invisible.

[00:02:29] What did you think in general?

[00:02:31] Oh, welcome to the show, by the way.

[00:02:33] I just said that at the top.

[00:02:34] Oh, thanks.

[00:02:34] I'm sorry.

[00:02:34] I think Lucy mentioned it last time, but she's out this week.

[00:02:37] So, I've got Dini here, and I was glad that you wanted to come on because I know you're

[00:02:44] such a big Daryl fan.

[00:02:45] And I haven't asked you yet, but I was kind of hoping you would come on for the feedback

[00:02:48] episode too.

[00:02:49] Sure.

[00:02:50] Yes, definitely.

[00:02:51] I'd be glad to.

[00:02:52] That'll be fun.

[00:02:54] Okay.

[00:02:54] So, now, in general.

[00:02:57] In general, I loved it.

[00:03:00] Everything about it.

[00:03:01] The cinematography was brilliant, especially the fight scenes.

[00:03:04] And it has reclaimed that same elevated tone that the first season had.

[00:03:11] And I thought the first two episodes of this season was lacking a bit.

[00:03:17] But it had that sophistication.

[00:03:19] It was almost like watching a war drama with Saving Private Ryan.

[00:03:25] Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit.

[00:03:28] I get it.

[00:03:28] Yeah.

[00:03:29] But it felt real.

[00:03:31] A lot of action.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:32] High stakes.

[00:03:34] How about you?

[00:03:35] Well, maybe you'll turn me around on it then.

[00:03:38] Uh-oh!

[00:03:40] I, I, and I'm not like, I think this was maybe my least favorite episode of the whole series

[00:03:46] so far.

[00:03:47] Really?

[00:03:48] Okay.

[00:03:49] But I'm not gonna like die on that hill.

[00:03:51] I'm totally open to being, um, to having my mind changed on it.

[00:03:56] But I just felt like it was very contrived.

[00:04:01] And man, you know, there's a lot of little details in this show that have felt like a

[00:04:06] little too far out or maybe out of character or a little too silly or something.

[00:04:11] But I always find myself forgiving it because I just think it, A, has a good handle on character

[00:04:17] and that's the most important thing to me.

[00:04:19] And it's just so artful and joyful and fun and beautiful.

[00:04:23] And so those little, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on a lot of stuff.

[00:04:29] But this time I felt like it was, it was a tipping point for me where I was like, no,

[00:04:35] this is too much.

[00:04:36] And, and, uh, and so I wasn't, I was sort of like, ah, no, no, no, I'm not, I'm not

[00:04:42] digging it and not, well, I'll go over why as we go through our points, but, um, I don't

[00:04:49] know.

[00:04:49] I'm also having like a health problem right now.

[00:04:52] So maybe that had an impact.

[00:04:53] I don't know for sure.

[00:04:55] I don't think so, but it should give you, um, good escapism.

[00:05:01] Yeah.

[00:05:01] Health problems.

[00:05:02] Oh, that worries me.

[00:05:03] And usually when I, um, when I watch something a second time and I'm more, um, I'm pausing

[00:05:11] and I'm really sussing out the details when I don't love something the first time, usually

[00:05:17] the second time I'll like it more when I'm like, oh, I see where they were going there.

[00:05:21] And this time I liked it less when I did that.

[00:05:24] Oh, wow.

[00:05:25] So, so we'll see, but I don't want that to, um, change anything that you say or feel about

[00:05:31] it at all.

[00:05:31] That's not what I'm meaning to do.

[00:05:32] I'm just saying what I think it's good.

[00:05:34] It's good.

[00:05:34] Sometimes when we have different, you know, opinions on it, cause we can connect with people

[00:05:38] in the audience who are feeling differently about the show, which I think with a show,

[00:05:40] there actually are a lot of people feeling different ways about it.

[00:05:44] I do too.

[00:05:46] Um, you know, it's interesting about this one too.

[00:05:48] Um, like I watched it four times and the last time I watched it with my son, he's 14 and

[00:05:55] it was the first time he really paid attention to the show.

[00:05:58] I mean, he usually half heartedly he's doing his drawings while he watches it.

[00:06:03] And he's like, can we watch the next one?

[00:06:04] And I'm like, I don't have it.

[00:06:06] Oh, okay.

[00:06:09] So yeah.

[00:06:10] Why don't you go first?

[00:06:12] Okay.

[00:06:13] This one, the first point, I think I want to delve into Daryl a little bit and his history

[00:06:20] of romance.

[00:06:21] Is that okay?

[00:06:22] Cause it kind of, so I, as you know, I'm a romance novel freak.

[00:06:28] I've written a few and, uh, I've been reading them since I was 13.

[00:06:34] And when I did my master's thesis, I, um, it was a study proposal and we had to come up

[00:06:41] with a topic.

[00:06:42] And my topic was, um, why women read romance novels, which back in the nineties, the notion

[00:06:50] is that it was only uneducated woman or housewives that read them.

[00:06:55] And my goal was to disprove that.

[00:06:58] So I had to do a lot of research and surprisingly there's a lot out there.

[00:07:01] And it really comes down to the fact that you get the happily ever after, but you have to

[00:07:08] grow into yourself as an individual.

[00:07:12] So it's almost a little feminist.

[00:07:15] The woman has to become who she is and the man has to almost deserve her and become who

[00:07:20] he is.

[00:07:21] So it's none of that, you know, Jerry Maguire, you complete me bullshit that I hate that movie.

[00:07:28] And I think in Daryl's case,

[00:07:31] Wait, wait, I don't.

[00:07:32] So I think I get the idea that they both have to sort of rise to the occasion for each other.

[00:07:37] Right.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:38] But, um, how is that different from you complete me?

[00:07:42] It's because they don't, they don't necessarily need something else to complete them.

[00:07:46] They have to become whole themselves to be good in a relationship kind of thing.

[00:07:50] Is that what you're saying?

[00:07:52] Exactly.

[00:07:52] Okay.

[00:07:52] Exactly.

[00:07:52] I mean, we all, we always keep evolving, uh, blah, blah, blah, but there's no, you complete

[00:07:57] me.

[00:07:57] You complete me, Jason.

[00:07:59] All right.

[00:08:00] I'm going to hang up right now.

[00:08:03] No, I, I think that's, yeah.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:05] Well, we can't, I don't want to get into it too much, but yeah, there's, I've definitely

[00:08:08] thought about how, if you're sitting around waiting for someone else to make you feel

[00:08:12] better about yourself, then you're probably not going to be very good in a relationship.

[00:08:15] Exactly.

[00:08:16] Exactly.

[00:08:17] So, um, Norman Reedus, no, he seems to contradict himself a lot.

[00:08:22] Sorry, Norman.

[00:08:23] Um, a long time ago, he said he played Daryl as if he were a virgin.

[00:08:28] Um, and he didn't really care about which way the character went, um, sexually.

[00:08:34] He was kind of ambiguous about it.

[00:08:36] So the history, like the Carol and he had that one moment and at the prison, remember

[00:08:43] he was rubbing her back and it's like, he was really just rubbing her back to get rid

[00:08:48] of that, that pain from the shotgun.

[00:08:51] But, uh, there was a moment when, when it became charged and he stopped and it was almost

[00:08:56] like he felt that the moment was sexual, like a fifth grader didn't know what to do about

[00:09:01] it.

[00:09:02] So then fast forward to Leah, um, who is clearly, well, not clearly cause we didn't see the background

[00:09:09] of that, but when they were in that tree, he didn't really know what to do.

[00:09:14] He's throwing fish at her.

[00:09:15] Um, so I think she instigated that relationship and, and I think it was probably a good relationship, but I think it was born out of grief, loneliness.

[00:09:26] Um, cause he'd been out on his own searching for Rick for years or something for, yeah.

[00:09:32] And you know, Carol always lost her group.

[00:09:36] She lost her group, but when she gave him that ultimatum to choose her or Rick that ruined it and made me hate her.

[00:09:45] Like really hate her.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:46] And I liked that relationship and her, I didn't love it, but I liked it a lot more than most people until she just became

[00:09:53] really annoying and evil.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:55] Agreed.

[00:09:56] Um, and then what happened next Carol, uh, not Carol, Connie.

[00:10:01] So that I think they had a really mutual deep regard for each other.

[00:10:06] And I think there was definitely some attraction there.

[00:10:09] I feel more heat between them actually more like sexual heat than I do between him and Isabel.

[00:10:14] I feel more depth with Isabel, more like attraction with Connie.

[00:10:18] Yeah.

[00:10:19] And I think at that point he had some experience, but I also think he was shy about getting hurt again.

[00:10:26] And they had more of a fun flirtatious or she had a fun flirtatious way about her.

[00:10:33] He did a little too, I would say.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:35] He did.

[00:10:36] And dog liked her.

[00:10:37] So that's pretty important.

[00:10:41] Um, but I think, I don't know, as time went on, it just, they seem to want different things.

[00:10:46] They were just better friends and that's okay.

[00:10:50] I'm still kind of curious where that would have gone, but I think it ended that they were friends so far anyway.

[00:10:57] Um, and with Isabel, this is my point with coming together as two individuals.

[00:11:03] I feel like Daryl at this point, he's got growing to do, but he's, he's himself and she's definitely had some history and growth and she's herself.

[00:11:12] And it's one of the things about romance novels now is they're more diverse.

[00:11:18] Like you have queer romances.

[00:11:20] Um, and there's a lot of romance novels with older people, like older women.

[00:11:27] Um, and one of my favorites is one with where the hero is coming back from the Napoleonic Wars, which is kind of fitting with the French revolution theme that's going on.

[00:11:36] Um, and they're just, it's a quiet, gentle love and they kind of just choose to go through life together rather than the sexual heat.

[00:11:44] It's just, it's just regard, respect and love.

[00:11:49] And I think, I think Daryl's found that with Isabel.

[00:11:53] Mm hmm.

[00:11:54] And I think it's short lived.

[00:11:57] Yeah.

[00:11:58] Sadly.

[00:11:59] Only because this is an ongoing show, right?

[00:12:02] They can't maintain something like that.

[00:12:07] Well, they could, but it would just be so unusual.

[00:12:11] Right.

[00:12:12] It's just, I mean, I would be shocked.

[00:12:15] It's unusual, but look, Rick and Michonne did it, you know?

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:20] So they could do it.

[00:12:21] They could.

[00:12:21] As long as they didn't focus on romance, like it was just their thing and that's it.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] That's what I was kind of saying with Lucy, uh, last time is if they make the show, not about the romance, but just be the romance, be a part of the show.

[00:12:37] But I, I, I, yeah, I think we're all sort of like, Oh God, not going to last.

[00:12:44] But I, yeah, I love what you just said.

[00:12:46] It really helped me clarify them as a couple together.

[00:12:49] Cause I agree.

[00:12:50] They're both kind of comfortable in their own skin and then they found each other and they have this bond and love.

[00:12:56] That's not coming out of some kind of a lack or a need or desperation or anything like that.

[00:13:01] It's just a mutual respect.

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:04] Oh, but that ending did, did you, I cried.

[00:13:07] Um, Oh yeah.

[00:13:09] When she was being taken away and he's, yeah.

[00:13:12] Yeah.

[00:13:13] In fact, I did like pretty much everything with them in this, um, episode, even though I said it was my, maybe my least favorite of the series.

[00:13:23] I liked all that stuff.

[00:13:25] It was very sweet.

[00:13:27] Do you think, I think she got bit.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:33] That wound on her cheek.

[00:13:36] It, it kind of looked like a bite mark.

[00:13:40] I don't think so.

[00:13:41] Oh, I hope not.

[00:13:43] Like it.

[00:13:43] That's what made me cry.

[00:13:45] I was like, no, no, I did.

[00:13:47] That didn't even occur to me.

[00:13:48] I feel like if she'd gotten bitten, then it would have, um, come up, you know, as a possibility.

[00:13:56] Maybe.

[00:13:57] I think, well, I don't know.

[00:14:00] She had such despair about her.

[00:14:03] Um, on the other side of that.

[00:14:04] Okay.

[00:14:05] Just to share.

[00:14:06] Maybe you're right.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:07] Cause what I, the way I read that because he was like being a really good boyfriend here, they are in a fucking jail.

[00:14:14] Who knows what's going to happen?

[00:14:15] They're handcuffed.

[00:14:16] He's like, I'm all right.

[00:14:17] We'll just get some sleep and get out of here tomorrow.

[00:14:19] No problem.

[00:14:20] You know, Laura's really going to love it back in back home.

[00:14:23] And she's like, well, what will I do there?

[00:14:24] But she seemed very despondent.

[00:14:27] And, um, I just thought that meant, oh, we're in such a crappy situation right here.

[00:14:32] I want to hope, but I can't let myself feel that hope because it just feels so hopeless.

[00:14:37] But now that you said what you just said, maybe that's why she was like that.

[00:14:41] And that's why he couldn't see her, huh?

[00:14:43] Exactly.

[00:14:44] He couldn't see her.

[00:14:45] So it wasn't like he was trying to make her feel better.

[00:14:48] I think you're right.

[00:14:48] Cheer her up.

[00:14:49] And she, did you see the cockroach come out of the drain?

[00:14:52] The broken drain?

[00:14:53] She ate it.

[00:14:54] Just kidding.

[00:14:55] Yeah, she ate it.

[00:14:57] Ew.

[00:14:59] Oh, I remember my first apartment with all those cockroaches.

[00:15:03] Oh God.

[00:15:04] Well, I didn't get what that was all about.

[00:15:06] I think she was, it harkens back to the first, um, season when she was going to kill herself with the, um, I don't know what she did.

[00:15:17] She tore off some furniture and was about to kill herself when that, uh, Quinn's maid came in.

[00:15:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:23] And I think she took the drain and she hid it in her hands.

[00:15:27] And I, I don't know.

[00:15:29] It's either a weapon to use or she was going to kill herself before she turned.

[00:15:34] That's my theory.

[00:15:35] I have no idea.

[00:15:36] No.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:37] I think you might be right.

[00:15:38] I don't, oh gosh.

[00:15:39] Now I got to go back and watch that again for sure.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Cause, uh, that seems plausible now that you mentioned it.

[00:15:48] Ugh.

[00:15:48] Well, and, and just the way we've all been thinking, she probably won't last anyway.

[00:15:52] Yeah.

[00:15:53] So, and we're already halfway through the season.

[00:15:57] Oh God.

[00:15:58] Daryl's going to get his heart broken.

[00:16:00] Um,

[00:16:00] Me too.

[00:16:01] Yes.

[00:16:02] Me too.

[00:16:03] I, I like them.

[00:16:04] I really, and I like her, uh, ugh.

[00:16:07] So just, I'll go through some notes I had on that, just that, um, them together.

[00:16:12] Cause I like the scene.

[00:16:14] It's beautiful.

[00:16:15] Like a lot of scenes, even in the decay of this just dank cell looked gorgeous and a little

[00:16:22] light coming from above.

[00:16:23] There was a symmetry between the, these two chambers that they were in, especially when

[00:16:27] they had the wide shot finally of them holding hands around the corner.

[00:16:31] And, um, and I love Daryl being all encouraging.

[00:16:35] And when she said, uh, tell me a story.

[00:16:39] I just want to hear your voice.

[00:16:41] I imagined him saying, uh, where I grew up, there was this little boy, Jimmy, who got a

[00:16:46] piglet as a present.

[00:16:49] Yeah.

[00:16:50] When he started talking.

[00:16:50] And then when she said, uh, tell me about the fireflies.

[00:16:53] My first thought was, well, they're this rebel militia group.

[00:16:57] I don't know if you've seen last of us.

[00:16:58] Oh, that's right.

[00:17:00] I was thinking of fireflies.

[00:17:02] That's what popped into my head.

[00:17:03] Oh, yes.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] And the Joss Whedon thing too.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:07] Um, and, uh, then when she said, you know, you were right.

[00:17:12] I found something here that was just really sweet and I loved it.

[00:17:17] And then she said, je t'aime, which means I love you, which reminded me that for some odd

[00:17:22] reason for my senior quote in my senior yearbook, I put je t'aime and I've always looked at

[00:17:29] that and been like, why did I, why did I put that?

[00:17:31] I don't even know who I was talking to, but, um, anyway, um, it was, it was a really sweet

[00:17:35] scene, but now I feel like I'm seeing it in a whole new and depressing way.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:42] Watch her face when you rewatch it.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] I'm curious the listener feedback.

[00:17:48] Then, uh, Lo Sang takes her away and we don't really know where to and yeah, it's pretty

[00:17:54] tragic.

[00:17:55] Yeah.

[00:17:56] Bastard.

[00:17:57] Do you mind if I go to a different?

[00:17:59] Go ahead.

[00:18:00] Okay.

[00:18:00] My first point is about Lo Sang who, um, he was such a strong character.

[00:18:07] I love him in this.

[00:18:08] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:18:09] He's an asshole.

[00:18:10] I mean, he is actually, I think, uh, the actor plays him so well.

[00:18:13] I love this actor and, uh, and the character, um, I'm just kidding.

[00:18:17] Um, in some ways is very interesting to me, even as he's infuriating, but, um, he's saying

[00:18:23] to Daryl after Dale wakes up from, I guess being beaten unconscious, which I don't think

[00:18:28] we saw.

[00:18:29] Um, he, cause this Lo Sang says, this is not how I wanted it to be.

[00:18:33] I was hoping we convinced you that your thinking would evolve and come around, but no must be

[00:18:39] hard living without a semblance of faith, no organizing principle, nothing to cling to existent

[00:18:44] existent meant simply reacting a man alone, such a sad state.

[00:18:49] And Daryl says, fuck off.

[00:18:51] And then he laughs, chuckles.

[00:18:53] Perhaps it's easy to reject faith when you live only for yourself, but I've dedicated my

[00:18:58] life to a community of people, a community.

[00:19:00] I have a responsibility to protect.

[00:19:02] And I was just like seething at all of that.

[00:19:06] Me too.

[00:19:07] I'm like, this is fucking ridiculous.

[00:19:09] And for one thing, like you just, you can have an organizing principle in your life without

[00:19:14] needing it to come from a book or someone else.

[00:19:17] It can come from you.

[00:19:19] You can decide what your principles are and what your morals are.

[00:19:22] And I personally think it's especially impressive when someone decides to be a moral person,

[00:19:27] just because they like care about people and they have compassion, you know, not because someone

[00:19:31] told them to, or they were going to be eternally tortured.

[00:19:35] I'm, I'm, I know a lot of, there's a lot in like religion can guide people to that.

[00:19:41] And it's, can be a beautiful, wonderful thing that causes a lot of people to help a lot of

[00:19:44] people.

[00:19:44] And I'm not trying to say anything bad about that, but I am also saying that it doesn't

[00:19:48] have to be that, you know?

[00:19:50] And so, um, less saying seems to presume that if you don't have that, then you're a sad sack

[00:19:55] loser.

[00:19:56] But more importantly, um, he said, Daryl's a man alone, but he's, but he's dedicated himself

[00:20:01] to a community of people.

[00:20:02] And I'm like, dude, when you met Daryl, he was desperately trying to get back to his community.

[00:20:07] And you were like, Daryl said, I've got family waiting for me back home.

[00:20:11] And Lowe saying what is, well, you've got people here who hope you'll stay.

[00:20:14] Sometimes when a person leaves home, he comes to find he belongs someplace else.

[00:20:17] And now he's criticizing him for being a man alone with no community.

[00:20:21] I mean, part of me is like, is that low saying just being a hypocrite, which I don't really

[00:20:32] understand what that, what they would be trying to say about his character if it was, because

[00:20:38] that was his whole thing in the first season was trying to get Daryl to stay and not go

[00:20:43] back to his community.

[00:20:44] And now to say you have no community.

[00:20:47] I just think it's bad writing, but they just shifted gears with this character.

[00:20:53] Am I wrong?

[00:20:53] Like help me feel better about that.

[00:20:55] I didn't think it was bad writing.

[00:20:57] Well, first of all, you and I, and all the viewers know that Daryl put some everyone

[00:21:02] else before himself always.

[00:21:04] Yeah.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:05] Merle started with Merle and then it became Rick and his community always.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:09] You're right.

[00:21:09] For sure.

[00:21:11] I think low saying is starting to buy into, okay, let me back up.

[00:21:18] Cause this was one of my points to religion, you know, religion.

[00:21:23] I've struggled with that my whole life too.

[00:21:25] So when I watched midnight mass, that was the perfect definition for me of religion.

[00:21:31] I love you.

[00:21:32] Adam.

[00:21:32] Oh, it's brilliant.

[00:21:33] You have Riley who was an atheist, but he was a good person.

[00:21:38] Um, and it's like you said, he found it despite his.

[00:21:43] Oh, right.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:45] I mean, you can talk about like premise, but not like, okay, I can kind of do this.

[00:21:50] I think you stopped me.

[00:21:51] That's fine.

[00:21:52] So I'm, yeah, I can't give his ending.

[00:21:55] And then you have Riley's parents and that sheriff and his son, and they were both religious.

[00:22:02] They had organized religion and they use those principles to guide them.

[00:22:07] And I can't do it without spoiling, but let's just say that they were, what I would say is true Christians, true Muslims and how they acted.

[00:22:18] And then we have Bev who used religion as a tool and as control and tried to harm people with it.

[00:22:26] It was close minded.

[00:22:28] I think Lus, Lusang, Lusang.

[00:22:31] You say tomato.

[00:22:32] I say tomato.

[00:22:34] I say tomato.

[00:22:34] I think he started out as a faithful person and wanting to do good.

[00:22:39] I think he's starting to buy into his bullshit.

[00:22:42] Like he's listening to that woman whose name I forget.

[00:22:47] Um, Jacinta.

[00:22:48] Jacinta.

[00:22:49] And he, you know, everything he has to, you don't.

[00:22:53] I think if you're a religious person, you don't need proof to have faith.

[00:22:59] You just have faith.

[00:23:00] You just have faith.

[00:23:01] Like Sylvie did in this example.

[00:23:02] She's terrified and she wanted to do the right thing.

[00:23:06] And basically she just prayed and asked God to give her the strength to do what was right for Lusang.

[00:23:13] And she did it, right?

[00:23:14] She kind of put that guy in a stranglehold, I think, and, and got out to help, to help Lusang.

[00:23:21] I think though Lusang, Lusang, um, he is under the impression that his people need proof and he's going to make that proof happen.

[00:23:34] And even with Laurent giving him that Valium or whatever, the Valerian root.

[00:23:39] The Valerian, yeah.

[00:23:40] Um.

[00:23:41] It's great for sleep, by the way.

[00:23:43] I used to take that because I tried a bunch of different things and that was the only thing that worked.

[00:23:47] Really?

[00:23:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:48] We need to talk about this later.

[00:23:50] I have major insomnia.

[00:23:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:51] Um, he didn't, I don't think he gave him that drink to necessarily help Laurent's pain, although I think that's part of it.

[00:24:01] I think he did it so he wouldn't react when.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:04] They'll be freak out.

[00:24:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:06] And therefore showing the people that he's calm in God's grace.

[00:24:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Everything about it, it's like he's, he needs to prove and he's just being brainwashed himself.

[00:24:16] I, I, that's my feeling on Lusang.

[00:24:18] I don't think it's bad writing.

[00:24:20] I think it's evolution.

[00:24:21] Maybe sloppily done.

[00:24:23] Yeah.

[00:24:24] I mean, so when Daryl said, what happens if you're wrong?

[00:24:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:29] And he said, if I'm wrong, there would be no point in going on.

[00:24:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:32] That sounds like a, a suicide death cult, you know?

[00:24:37] Yep.

[00:24:37] Like nihilistic.

[00:24:39] And it's the opposite of all this faith and organizing principles.

[00:24:43] Like, oh, we'll throw that all away and we can all die.

[00:24:45] And, and so when he started out, he really came off like the kind of religious people that I love, which is somebody who uses their faith to create this beautiful community where there's all this love, you know, and support.

[00:25:01] And then all of a sudden this season, he's an extremist, nihilistic death cult kook.

[00:25:08] Yeah.

[00:25:09] You know?

[00:25:09] That gives religion a bad name.

[00:25:11] Yeah, for sure.

[00:25:12] And, and we already had a story kind of like this with Daryl and Pope, another religious extremist.

[00:25:17] Yes, yes.

[00:25:17] Not exactly the same, but similar.

[00:25:19] And, and, and by the way, you, even with everything I said about Losang, I found him way less annoying than Pope.

[00:25:24] And I, I don't know, maybe a lot of that's because I just think the Losang actor is so good and he does his best to humanize this character.

[00:25:32] And I think if the writing was a little better, he'd be a great antagonist, but I just feel like it's only been a couple of weeks.

[00:25:38] And so having him suddenly make this huge shift is too quick to be organic for me, but this show, they are having to really kind of, it feels rushed to me actually right now.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:51] I kind of have to move things along because they only have six episodes a season.

[00:25:55] I know.

[00:25:56] I wish they'd do eight episodes.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:59] That seems reasonable.

[00:26:00] That'd be good.

[00:26:01] Yeah.

[00:26:01] But yeah, I, I bought it more and maybe it's like you said, um, you're willing to give the show a lot of suspension of disbelief and, and I am, um, for now.

[00:26:12] And I get that because I usually am.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:15] All right.

[00:26:16] What's next?

[00:26:17] Um, well, just to finish up on the saying I thought, and Daryl, I thought the cruelest moment was when he told Daryl, Daryl, he's hopeless, just like cruel.

[00:26:28] You are hopeless.

[00:26:29] And the expression on Daryl space or something flickered.

[00:26:33] And it just reminded me once again, I'm an abused kid where your parent or abuser not only physically abuses you, but just orates you and brings you down.

[00:26:43] I, it just made me sad.

[00:26:46] Mm hmm.

[00:26:46] Because he seems like the vibe he gives off usually is so caring.

[00:26:52] Yes.

[00:26:52] And to have then that kind of thing directed at you from a person like that feels like such a betrayal.

[00:26:57] But I think Daryl already is like, well, saying's fucked.

[00:27:01] So he probably doesn't care.

[00:27:03] I hope so.

[00:27:04] Yeah.

[00:27:05] Maybe he was more concerned with Isabel in that moment.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:09] Okay.

[00:27:10] Do you want to talk about Carol?

[00:27:12] Sure.

[00:27:12] Carol and Janae.

[00:27:13] That was my main, you know, Janae looks like my therapist and it's starting to freak me out a little bit, but I like her nonetheless.

[00:27:21] Not the therapist.

[00:27:23] Oh, she's fine.

[00:27:24] But Janae, what a great character.

[00:27:26] Mm hmm.

[00:27:27] Um, I really like the partnering with Carol and Janae.

[00:27:32] I think it feels natural and not forced to me.

[00:27:37] And I think you're going to disagree there.

[00:27:39] Um, they're so strong and powerful and they're both master manipulators.

[00:27:45] Mm hmm.

[00:27:46] I agree with that.

[00:27:47] Mm hmm.

[00:27:47] And I think Janae now has it over on Carol, which is good.

[00:27:50] It's a good thing.

[00:27:51] The whole thing felt like once it was all said and done, like a psychological battle of two women trying to out manipulate each other, which I did like.

[00:28:00] I like that.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] I thought it was great.

[00:28:02] And Janae bringing her in and saying, we woman, that's such a powerful phrase.

[00:28:08] Mm hmm.

[00:28:08] Just saying.

[00:28:09] And what did she, cause that's where the title came in, Land Visible and the Invisible.

[00:28:13] But I, I don't remember the dialogue, something about whenever people look at us, but never see us or something.

[00:28:20] I didn't catch that at all.

[00:28:22] I didn't catch that at all.

[00:28:22] Maybe because I didn't look at the title.

[00:28:25] Yeah.

[00:28:26] I also, you know, when Janae first met Carol, Carol was looking at the Mona Lisa, who I think her expression is famously sort of hard to read.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:38] And I think that's great because it's like Carol.

[00:28:40] You can't quite tell where she's coming from a lot of time and that's by design with her.

[00:28:44] But Janae said, you know, what do you think it means?

[00:28:47] And Carol said, oh, I think she's, she looks sad, which I think a lot of people project things on the Mona Lisa.

[00:28:52] So Carol maybe is sad herself, you know?

[00:28:55] Yeah.

[00:28:56] Good point.

[00:28:56] But then Janae said, I think she's hiding a secret.

[00:29:01] And I think that was foreshadowing that she knows how to tell when somebody is hiding a secret, you know?

[00:29:08] Ooh.

[00:29:09] Yeah.

[00:29:10] I took that because a lot of people think that that secret smile, that's their interpretation.

[00:29:16] So I didn't even go deeper into that.

[00:29:17] That's great.

[00:29:22] Janae and Carol is Janae didn't seem to have a belief in government from the beginning.

[00:29:28] You know, she's just like the government's not going to protect us.

[00:29:32] So why bother striking?

[00:29:34] And she definitely didn't seem to have faith in religion, but Carol once did have faith.

[00:29:40] We, you know, I talked about that in a letter I wrote and she had a cross at the beginning of the series.

[00:29:46] She talked about her faith in that weird episode with the woman, the savior.

[00:29:51] She's she said, I always relied on my faith, which could have been bullshit or a stretch of the truth or her personal truth.

[00:30:01] But when Janae says religion controls the masses, Carol kind of just looks away and she said, sometimes it can do that.

[00:30:10] So I think that's Carol has a basic humanity in her that will and does come out.

[00:30:18] It's not always manipulation.

[00:30:20] Mm hmm.

[00:30:21] Although, what do you think?

[00:30:23] Well, I think the way they're writing her right now, and I don't know if this is consistent with the main series, maybe, but it seems like if she needs to lie to get what she wants, she will.

[00:30:37] But otherwise, she's a pretty open person and genuine, you know, as long as it won't mess with what she wants.

[00:30:47] If it gets in the way of what she wants, then she'll hide it if revealing something would get in the way.

[00:30:50] But if it won't get in the way, then she'll be freely revealing and honest.

[00:30:55] If that makes any sense.

[00:30:56] It does.

[00:30:57] And this is where I didn't believe.

[00:31:00] I feel like it was too rushed.

[00:31:02] That gentleman she met who spoke English and his name, I don't remember either.

[00:31:06] Me neither.

[00:31:06] I don't either.

[00:31:08] You know, she was very open and sincere with him.

[00:31:10] She told him about Daryl off camera, I guess, because I seem to have missed that.

[00:31:16] She kind of cuddled up to him at the end and wanted him to go.

[00:31:19] And I feel that was sincere.

[00:31:21] And I do think the softening of Carol's character is necessary in this series to evolve her character.

[00:31:33] She could easily go the way of Jeanne permanently.

[00:31:36] Just cruel and matter of fact, and fascist.

[00:31:40] She's just becoming, you know, more honest, even with Ash to some extent.

[00:31:45] So I just think the difference between Jeanne and Carol here, I like this softening of Carol and also reducing her potency, I guess is the word maybe I'm looking for.

[00:31:59] She's not the same Carol right now.

[00:32:02] She can handle herself, but she's, she's slowly evolving, but I'm not sure I'm buying it with the writing on that.

[00:32:10] What do you think about her?

[00:32:13] Well, yeah, to me.

[00:32:16] So the thing with the guy whose name we can't remember this guy who she was sitting next to in the truck on the way over and has a husband, I guess, or boyfriend that he wants to reunite with.

[00:32:27] Um, that part didn't ring true to me.

[00:32:33] And it, it's a problem I'm now realizing I'm having with this show where it's kind of like I felt at the end of Game of Thrones where I could, once they got past the book and it, they didn't have the complexity and nuance of the book to rely on anymore.

[00:32:49] Mm-hmm .

[00:32:54] Yeah.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:13] And so the point that they're not aligned with character, they're just putting it in because they want some kind of a payoff later, even though it doesn't align with character.

[00:33:19] And so with Carol and this guy, they're snuggling up together.

[00:33:23] And I'm like, Carol doesn't snuggle up with anybody much less that she just met.

[00:33:28] Yeah.

[00:33:29] Yeah.

[00:33:29] Daryl, who she's known forever and they've been through life and death situations and he's been there for her for years.

[00:33:34] And this guy that she just met, I'm like, what?

[00:33:37] And then I'm like, she would only do that if she was manipulating somebody, but I don't think she was manipulating.

[00:33:42] I think the point was that they'd gotten close and that's because they just showed that to make it seem like more of a shocking betrayal when he turned her in so that it would have more of an impact, right?

[00:33:53] They're setting up this payoff, but the setup makes no sense.

[00:33:56] And then like, I'm going to go into more detail, but having Sylvie just die quickly so that she could become the Zed that has to confront Laurent felt contrived in a similar way.

[00:34:11] Um, changing Lo-Sang from this benevolent religious leader into an extremist nihilistic kook just because they need conflict.

[00:34:19] Um, having, I mean, this is a previous episode, but having Emil who used to be this romantic rebel turn into this zealous gloomy follower that betrays Sylvie.

[00:34:30] I mean that one, I guess I could buy it, but along with this other stuff, it's starting to make me feel like I'm seeing a pattern that I, I, like one time my friend, I was talking with her about some,

[00:34:41] show or something and I said, it felt contrived.

[00:34:43] And she's like, yeah, well it is contrived.

[00:34:45] Somebody made it up.

[00:34:46] And I'm like, yeah, but that doesn't mean it has to feel contrived.

[00:34:49] You know, the best contrivances are the ones that seem like they're organic.

[00:34:54] And, um, so I was looking into this episode to see who wrote it.

[00:35:00] So I would know who to blame, but then I started thinking about how TV writing works usually.

[00:35:06] And I presume the show does too, where they have for people who don't know a writer's room where all the

[00:35:11] writers sit there and they together work out the beats of the story.

[00:35:15] Like they'll have note cards up on the board or something and arrange them.

[00:35:18] And then each episode script gets assigned to a writer.

[00:35:23] So they take those story beats and they turn it into a script.

[00:35:26] So it's hard to say how much of what happens is from all the writers as a collective and

[00:35:31] how much is about the one who actually wrote the script.

[00:35:34] But, um, I'm not going to call out the writer of this episode, but, uh, she worked with showrunner

[00:35:39] David Zabel on ER, but, um, I don't know.

[00:35:42] I feel like maybe even if, um, maybe they worked out the beats that a really good writer could

[00:35:50] make it seem more organic and less contrived.

[00:35:53] Maybe.

[00:35:54] Yeah.

[00:35:54] You know, now you're, you're changing my mind.

[00:35:57] I'm sorry.

[00:35:57] Oh, you're bumming me out.

[00:35:59] I'm going to cry like I did at the end of the episode.

[00:36:01] I don't want this episode to like break the spell of the show for me.

[00:36:05] And I, hopefully it won't, but, um, no, I mean, you know, I disagree with you about

[00:36:10] Lo Tsang, but I'm probably reading into him too much, but I don't care.

[00:36:14] I'm good.

[00:36:15] I don't want to ruin it for you.

[00:36:17] No, you won't.

[00:36:18] Daryl's in it.

[00:36:18] Right.

[00:36:19] And they showed him his bare arms.

[00:36:21] I'm good.

[00:36:21] And he looks pretty hot.

[00:36:23] Tortured.

[00:36:24] I still enjoyed watching this too.

[00:36:26] And yeah, I mean, torture Daryl, the grimier and grungier, the better.

[00:36:31] Right.

[00:36:32] Absolutely.

[00:36:33] But in real life, that would be so gross.

[00:36:36] Hey baby.

[00:36:39] My ringtone is Daryl saying, Hey, mine is Rick saying Carl.

[00:36:48] So anything else on that point?

[00:36:52] No, but I agree with you.

[00:36:54] The snuggling, the snuggling put me off.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:57] Well, let me, so I had some stuff about the two of them.

[00:37:01] One about Janae and Carol back to that point.

[00:37:04] Okay.

[00:37:05] That, uh, what I loved when Janae said about Mona Lisa, it's the original, you know, from

[00:37:12] the Louvre.

[00:37:12] Carol says, how are you sure it's the real thing?

[00:37:14] Because I'm the one who took it off the fucking wall.

[00:37:17] Well, I love that line.

[00:37:19] Yep.

[00:37:19] That was brilliant.

[00:37:21] So there were moments in this episode where I was like, hell yeah, that, that was so cool.

[00:37:25] Uh, so Carol gets caught trying to leave and Janae finds out she's looking for Daryl.

[00:37:32] And I love the little bit where Carol tells Janae the truth about how she came there.

[00:37:37] I landed two days ago from America.

[00:37:40] I manipulated an innocent man into letting me fly in this plane under the false pretense

[00:37:44] of looking for my daughter.

[00:37:46] We had to stop in Greenland where he was almost used as a sperm donor and I was nearly murdered

[00:37:51] by insane environmentalists.

[00:37:53] It was the best that it totally cracked me up.

[00:37:56] And then, and, and she laughs and says, uh, and why do you want to find Daryl Dixon?

[00:38:01] And there's like this pause and he, and, and you're thinking, I mean, I should have

[00:38:05] known this was going to happen, but you're thinking, wow, she's just really scared and

[00:38:09] opening up or for whatever reason.

[00:38:10] And she goes, I came here to kill him.

[00:38:12] That was a great punchy line too.

[00:38:14] And smart and a smart one, but you know, Janae felt.

[00:38:17] It didn't work.

[00:38:18] But in the moment I thought it did.

[00:38:19] And it really fits the pattern of what they've established for Carol, at least on this show

[00:38:25] that she, um, will say things to connect with people that are true.

[00:38:33] And then once she gets that connection, then she can lie to manipulate them into giving her

[00:38:40] what she wants, like with Ash, you know, talking about Sophia and everything.

[00:38:43] And then she says that, um, Ed took Sophia to France.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:52] What did you think about her and Kudron?

[00:38:55] Cause it's the same thing.

[00:38:56] She kind of manipulated him.

[00:38:58] Yes.

[00:38:58] I felt like she had real concern the way she looked over her shoulder back at him.

[00:39:05] Did you get that?

[00:39:06] I always feel like there's concern mixed in there, even with Ash, as she was lying to him

[00:39:11] there.

[00:39:12] And that I think is a testament to Melissa McBride's awesome performance.

[00:39:15] And I love it.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:16] She's brilliant.

[00:39:17] Where it's not.

[00:39:17] Cause I think that's how people are.

[00:39:19] It's not that simple.

[00:39:20] And, and you have mixed feelings sometimes.

[00:39:23] Um, but it was interesting to see this didn't quite make sense to me because like I said,

[00:39:29] she has this pattern of being genuine and connecting on something with the person so that

[00:39:35] she can get what she wants out of them.

[00:39:37] And this time she connected with Kudron actually on a lie on her part, but that, um, you know,

[00:39:42] Oh, Daryl's my brother and he's my only family.

[00:39:45] And that really hit Kudron where it counted because Kudron lost his brother.

[00:39:50] And, but Carol doesn't know that.

[00:39:53] So she just got lucked into it.

[00:39:54] She's got a superpower now.

[00:39:56] Um, and also I was critical of that because Kudron should have been like, okay, this lady

[00:40:02] wants to find the guy who killed my brother.

[00:40:05] Fuck her.

[00:40:06] Fuck you lady.

[00:40:07] That's what I think he would have said.

[00:40:10] So, um, it didn't, I think just her bringing that up about brothers would have triggered that

[00:40:16] in him and it would have made him mad that Daryl was even being mentioned in the same breath as

[00:40:21] brothers.

[00:40:23] Oh, interesting.

[00:40:23] And I took it to, um, that because she said Daryl was his, her brother, that he had a moment

[00:40:31] of, I lost my brother.

[00:40:32] And this is a woman.

[00:40:33] He seems to have a soft spot for women and children.

[00:40:37] No, no, he doesn't.

[00:40:38] He beat up that old man in front of that girl.

[00:40:40] Killed the old man, which is another reason why I'm not totally buying.

[00:40:44] It's another character switch.

[00:40:45] You know, the good guys have turned bad and the bad guys have turned good for some reason

[00:40:48] this season.

[00:40:49] Cause Kudron was a cold motherfucker in at least the first few episodes of last season where

[00:40:54] he just killed that old man for no good reason.

[00:40:56] And, um, now he's helping Carol find the guy who killed his brother.

[00:41:03] Okay.

[00:41:03] This is Jason from a day later as I'm editing.

[00:41:06] And I remembered that Daryl actually did not kill Kudron's brother, but I pretty sure

[00:41:12] that Kudron still thinks that Daryl killed his brother.

[00:41:15] So everything I said applies, even though, as I'm sure a lot of you are saying out loud,

[00:41:22] no dude, he didn't do it.

[00:41:25] Oh, it's so tricky.

[00:41:26] Cause maybe it is because Janay kind of betrayed him.

[00:41:31] So he's, I don't know.

[00:41:33] I don't know.

[00:41:34] He let Laurent go.

[00:41:35] And then, and also I sort of wondered why is he still alive?

[00:41:39] I guess Janay got, you know, it was lunchtime.

[00:41:42] So I was like, all right, we'll pick this up later with the torturing of Kudron, put him

[00:41:46] in the cell or something.

[00:41:47] And then, um, yeah, but he had missing fingers.

[00:41:52] So that was gross.

[00:41:53] Poor guy.

[00:41:54] I liked that character though too.

[00:41:56] Or the actor.

[00:41:56] I'd like, I'd like more of him.

[00:41:59] Yeah.

[00:41:59] He's good.

[00:42:00] So, but so then, um, let's see outside the nest later with Carol, a lot of stuff happened

[00:42:09] at the compound, but I had that at another point.

[00:42:13] I was just talking about Janay and Carol specifically here.

[00:42:16] So outside the nest, cause they go to get Daryl.

[00:42:19] Um, Janay gives this speech riling up the troops.

[00:42:24] And my favorite part was that we see this scientist guy getting ready to inject some more zombies,

[00:42:31] you know, like with his syringe.

[00:42:33] And I'm like, oh, next episode is going to be fun.

[00:42:36] We're going to see these rage zombies attacking the nest.

[00:42:40] But, um, Janay's like, uh, in the name of Liberty equality and brotherhood, you will be remembered

[00:42:46] as heroes, which is the motto of France.

[00:42:50] Liberté, égalité, fraternité from the days of the French revolution.

[00:42:55] And then Janay turns to Carol, I'm giving you what you asked for.

[00:43:00] And then she nods at her, man, you're going to kill your friend.

[00:43:02] And I like that because when she says your friend, it's like, oh, wait, wait, wait.

[00:43:07] Oh, oh, she knows.

[00:43:08] And it took me a second to like, wait, wait, she's a friend.

[00:43:12] And then the men grab her and pull her away.

[00:43:14] Um, but I, um, I liked that Janay didn't fall for it because Ash is very trusting, compassionate

[00:43:24] person, but Janay is more cynical to take her at face value and understands that there's

[00:43:31] more underneath a lot of time.

[00:43:32] It's kind of a theme with her this episode, but, um, I don't quite understand why Janay

[00:43:38] would bother with all of this.

[00:43:42] Like, for one thing, we don't know exactly what she has planned.

[00:43:44] She says to Carol, you're going to kill your friend.

[00:43:47] So it sounds like they're going to try to make Carol kill Daryl.

[00:43:49] But I'm like, just go have your men kill him.

[00:43:52] Why do you bring someone in who might, and actually we know likely will cause your plan

[00:43:59] to mess up, you know?

[00:44:02] Yeah.

[00:44:03] Is that where you mean?

[00:44:04] That's another plot contrivance.

[00:44:05] Yeah, I think so.

[00:44:06] I mean, I can't fully judge it.

[00:44:08] Like I said, until we find out what Janay has in mind.

[00:44:10] I mean, the smartest thing Janay could do is use Carol as a bargaining chip, you know?

[00:44:16] But it sounds like she's going to try to make her kill Daryl for some reason, just because

[00:44:20] she wants to get her kicks off of that or something.

[00:44:22] I don't know.

[00:44:23] Yeah.

[00:44:23] I mean, I took it.

[00:44:25] Who knows?

[00:44:25] Like you said, we don't know what she's going to do, but I took it to say, you didn't

[00:44:29] fool me lady.

[00:44:31] Yeah.

[00:44:32] But, you know, if it sounds stupid to say at this point, more stupid than ever, but if

[00:44:38] this was real, then she would just be like, lock Carol up and let's go kill Daryl.

[00:44:43] You know, we don't want this person who's Daryl's friend to get in the way.

[00:44:48] Oh.

[00:44:49] Which she's going to.

[00:44:50] We know, we all know she's going to get in the way.

[00:44:52] So yeah, she won't.

[00:44:53] We can count on it.

[00:44:55] Oh, you're killing me with this episode now, though.

[00:44:57] Oh.

[00:44:58] I know.

[00:44:59] And it hasn't quite ended yet.

[00:45:00] But do you have anything more about what Carol did at Janae's compound?

[00:45:05] Or should I just go through that now that we're talking about it?

[00:45:09] I don't have anything else, but go ahead.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:11] Let me just go through that and then we'll get through it.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:14] Maybe it'll trigger something.

[00:45:16] So at the compound, we see them lead this line of people in cuffs to a special experiment

[00:45:22] area.

[00:45:23] And I'd be like, Janae's people are not hiding these experiments very well.

[00:45:27] Well, I guess she doesn't care if people know what they're doing.

[00:45:31] But I thought it was really interesting that the soldiers shoot this line of people.

[00:45:36] Horrific is a better word than interesting.

[00:45:38] Yes.

[00:45:39] And then inject them.

[00:45:40] And then they're, ah!

[00:45:40] They turn into rage.

[00:45:41] And then they shoot them.

[00:45:42] But they're so close together.

[00:45:44] It's like you should have better controls for this thing.

[00:45:47] It felt very like gonzo.

[00:45:51] And then the scientist says, back off the dose.

[00:45:53] We need the soldiers we can control.

[00:45:55] And I thought, we got to get it more aggressive, but not too much more.

[00:46:00] It's like, I would think, how do you control them?

[00:46:03] You don't, right?

[00:46:04] You just point in the right direction.

[00:46:06] So you want them as rageful as possible, I would think.

[00:46:09] And then Carol's friend, who we can't remember his name, says there's rumors this is where the burners or the acid zombies came from.

[00:46:17] So I think that is, you know.

[00:46:19] So now I think we know that the variants at the end of The Walking Dead probably don't have anything to do with all these different kinds of zombies we're seeing now.

[00:46:28] These are all Janae's experimental zombies, I would think.

[00:46:31] They are.

[00:46:31] And you've mentioned this on the show before, that it was kind of disappointing that at the end of The Walking Dead, they just dropped it.

[00:46:41] Yeah.

[00:46:42] Yeah, we thought, I thought, yeah, maybe they would play in here since we had all that stuff with the scientists in France.

[00:46:48] We're talking to Jenner from the first season of The Walking Dead.

[00:46:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:46:53] At the end of A World Beyond.

[00:46:55] Yeah.

[00:46:57] Yeah, so strange.

[00:46:58] I mean, I do, I still hope they get back to, because there's been just like strong suggestions that the zombie apocalypse started in France.

[00:47:08] Yes.

[00:47:09] And Janae actually blames, like her whole thing is people in low stations, which we saw she was, you know, as a janitor at the Louvre, rise up and take control.

[00:47:23] You know, the power imbalance basically gets reversed.

[00:47:26] But she blamed the higher ups or the elite or whatever for starting the zombie apocalypse.

[00:47:33] Right.

[00:47:34] Which takes on extra significance, given that we just saw, I'm moving on to another thing here, but that we just saw one eat her husband.

[00:47:42] Yeah.

[00:47:43] Yeah.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] And I also remember the, I love the speech she gave in season one when Daryl was in the gladiator pit talking about he's the American, he's the elite.

[00:47:55] And we all know that he's at the bottom of the barrel before the apocalypse.

[00:48:00] And it's your turn.

[00:48:01] So what do you got?

[00:48:02] Um, I guess my point is kind of Janae, um, patriotism versus nationalism, which I did kind of hesitate to talk about at first, given seems like that's the way our world is going, but sticking in the show.

[00:48:22] Um, I feel like there is a difference between the two.

[00:48:24] You could be patriotic and have pride in your country.

[00:48:28] Um, but nationalism is something different.

[00:48:31] And so I didn't do my own interpretation.

[00:48:33] I actually went to Merriam Webster and Googled the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

[00:48:40] And it's great little history.

[00:48:41] And I can send you the link later.

[00:48:43] Um, but they said, uh, briefly, we don't have any evidence of nationalism occurring until just before the 19th century, almost 150 years after.

[00:48:55] And at first they were kind of used interchangeably.

[00:48:59] Um, modern it's a modern France.

[00:49:03] This was an 1811 instead of diminishing has a possible increased this nationalism removed from his oppression and atrocities.

[00:49:13] I think they're talking about Napoleon.

[00:49:15] They see nothing but the magnificent magnificence, the success and the splendor of Bonaparte.

[00:49:20] Yeah.

[00:49:20] And I assure you that every poor, ignorant, stupid Creole, when he hears of the achievement of their demigod, evinces a lively interest and exultation as if some choice unlooked for gift of heaven had blessed his family.

[00:49:34] Anyway, so nationalism eventually, um, uh, goes past patriotism into a loyalty and devotion to a nation without any doubt.

[00:49:47] Like a fervor.

[00:49:48] A fervor.

[00:49:49] Yep.

[00:49:49] Kind of like Lo-Sang with his religion.

[00:49:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:49:52] Right.

[00:49:53] Right.

[00:49:53] They're both, both sides have it to the point where you feel superior to everyone else and more worthy and, and you could actually think of them as not worthwhile.

[00:50:08] Other people is not worthwhile, which I guess the same thing as feeling more worthy.

[00:50:12] Yeah.

[00:50:12] Yeah.

[00:50:13] It's scary.

[00:50:13] It's kind of, um,

[00:50:15] It's evil.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:17] Hmm?

[00:50:18] I think it's evil.

[00:50:19] Oh, yes, definitely.

[00:50:21] It's, did you read or watch the movie?

[00:50:24] This is kind of an obscure one.

[00:50:25] Eleni.

[00:50:26] Nope.

[00:50:28] It had John Malkovich in it.

[00:50:30] And I knew about it because I grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts, and there's a big Greek community there and he's from Worcester.

[00:50:37] So he wrote the book, but it was about post-World War II.

[00:50:40] The Greeks had a civil war and it was communists versus the royalists.

[00:50:44] And the communists came to the small village where my ancestors are from.

[00:50:49] And they, it was just women and children and they were bribing the woman with bread and food.

[00:50:54] And we'll take care of your children if you just join our movement.

[00:50:57] And Janae was kind of, kind of doing that in the beginning too.

[00:51:02] Yep.

[00:51:04] She's forgotten who she was, you know?

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:07] I mean, she, well, do you want to, can I go through my point on her?

[00:51:13] Yeah.

[00:51:13] Yeah.

[00:51:14] Yeah.

[00:51:14] Do you still have more?

[00:51:14] I probably have more, but let's play off each other.

[00:51:16] Okay.

[00:51:17] Okay.

[00:51:19] So we first have this flashback to the Mona Lisa with the crowd, not really paying attention

[00:51:25] and dropping garbage on the floor, which brought me back to when I saw the Mona Lisa, because

[00:51:32] you think it's going to be this magnificent thing because it's the most famous painting in

[00:51:37] the world.

[00:51:38] But because it's the most famous painting in the world, it's behind glass and it's roped

[00:51:42] off with a rope way out.

[00:51:43] So you can't get close.

[00:51:44] And then even behind that rope, there's a huge crowd, just like we saw in the episode.

[00:51:48] So you're even further back and people are talking and taking pictures and it's just like,

[00:51:53] oh yeah, I kind of see it.

[00:51:54] It's like a postage stamp.

[00:51:56] That's how I remember it.

[00:51:57] How depressing.

[00:52:00] And for a few seconds, I thought this was going to be about how pre-apocalypse, there were

[00:52:05] so many distractions that we didn't appreciate things enough.

[00:52:07] That's how it looked because people weren't even looking and they were just, but I think,

[00:52:11] no, it was more about people throwing garbage on the floor and then it was her job to clean

[00:52:16] it up.

[00:52:16] So she's in this low power position.

[00:52:19] That's what they were kind of getting at.

[00:52:20] And then her boss said, stop staring and do your job, lazy cow.

[00:52:24] So she's ordered around and mistreated by the elite.

[00:52:27] Right.

[00:52:28] And, and she says her movement is about the oppressed rising up and taking power, but maybe

[00:52:33] psychologically it's about wanting to have the same power over others that she felt people

[00:52:38] had over her.

[00:52:39] Yeah.

[00:52:40] Like the abuse turning into an abuser because, you know, this, this painting is a pride of

[00:52:47] France, the most famous painting.

[00:52:49] And she took it and it was in this area where she had to clean up garbage.

[00:52:54] So she took it, put it into her own area and then has this guy slurping up food from the

[00:53:00] floor.

[00:53:02] So she's instead of, it's sort of like animal farm.

[00:53:06] I think about that with her a lot, you know, there's, it's a revolution and then everybody's

[00:53:11] supposed to be equal afterwards.

[00:53:12] But she just took it to the extreme where she's the ultimate power and she's just doing

[00:53:18] the same thing, but even worse that she was rebelling against in the first place.

[00:53:23] I think that's what she's all about, you know?

[00:53:25] Yeah.

[00:53:26] Yeah.

[00:53:26] She had kind of the same thing where blind allegiance is dangerous and she was once indifferent

[00:53:31] to government and she's now creating the rise of her own absolute power under the

[00:53:37] guise of saving the downtrodden.

[00:53:39] And like that goes back to what you said about her super soldiers telling them that they're

[00:53:44] most devoted to her, um, that the union is providing false hope, which, you know, she's

[00:53:50] not wrong about.

[00:53:51] Um, you'll be remembered as heroes.

[00:53:54] And she always said that the religious folk believe that fairy tales will save them, but

[00:54:01] she's creating her own fairy tale thinking she can save others.

[00:54:05] Yeah.

[00:54:05] Yeah.

[00:54:06] I don't quite get why she's so anti-religion.

[00:54:08] Actually, she was talking about how the paintings, the religious paintings depicted violence.

[00:54:14] And she said there was, she thought religion was their fantasy way of dealing with the chaos

[00:54:20] in the world and, um, that it was false hope and all that.

[00:54:25] But why bother being so against it though, to the point where she would seek out this group

[00:54:31] and try to kill them?

[00:54:32] Um, I don't quite understand why she's so against quote unquote false hope.

[00:54:37] I think, um, a couple of things, uh, one, I mean, we don't know if she had faith in God before

[00:54:48] this, but, um, for sure.

[00:54:51] But nobody's stepped in to save, um, them no higher power.

[00:54:57] Yeah.

[00:54:58] So maybe she felt abandoned.

[00:55:00] She just, just lost her husband or.

[00:55:02] Oh, I see.

[00:55:03] Yeah.

[00:55:03] Yeah.

[00:55:04] That makes sense.

[00:55:04] Like you got to do it yourself.

[00:55:06] You can't rely on anyone else kind of thing.

[00:55:08] Yeah.

[00:55:08] And, you know, the Mona Lisa and actually my, my son pointed this one out.

[00:55:14] He's like, first, did you see the Mona Lisa?

[00:55:17] Like the way it's warm and inviting and the colors against the dark gray.

[00:55:22] I'm like, oh yeah, that's true.

[00:55:23] And you watch her when the apocalypse comes up, she approaches it as if she's going to an

[00:55:28] altar and the Mona Lisa is benign, almost Virgin Mary like presence.

[00:55:35] And my son said, watch her face.

[00:55:37] And when she's looking at the Mona Lisa, she's looking at the painting with absolute hope

[00:55:43] in her face.

[00:55:43] And then it quickly turns to despair and then anger.

[00:55:47] So it's almost as if art was her religion.

[00:55:50] And maybe it's because she worked in a gallery.

[00:55:53] It's a little bit of a stretch, but I liked.

[00:55:55] She definitely had a, some sort of transformation when she was looking at this painting.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:01] I don't think this is what they intended, but to me, because,

[00:56:04] like I said, the Mona Lisa's expression can be interpreted a bunch of different ways.

[00:56:09] And we just saw her witness, her husband being killed by a zombie.

[00:56:15] And then she's there crying in front of the Mona Lisa.

[00:56:18] And so then it looked like the Mona Lisa smirk was kind of mocking her pain.

[00:56:24] That's what I felt.

[00:56:26] Interesting.

[00:56:26] But like you said, people interpret it differently.

[00:56:29] And I got calmness and benign.

[00:56:33] And I don't know.

[00:56:35] I'm projecting.

[00:56:35] Well, maybe it's because my parents made me go to church every week.

[00:56:40] This is our psychotherapy session.

[00:56:42] Exactly.

[00:56:43] Speaking of, like, I do want to mention just quickly that it was exciting to see, oh, this

[00:56:49] is another moment we get to see when all the shit went down in the zombie apocalypse.

[00:56:54] Yeah.

[00:56:54] Yeah.

[00:56:54] I was a little critical because, so she was standing around with all her coworkers and they

[00:56:58] were trying to get her to join in to fight, you know, in the union.

[00:57:01] And it's sort of ironic because that's what she ends up, her whole cause is to fight for

[00:57:05] the oppressed.

[00:57:05] But in this moment, like you said, she's like, oh, why bother?

[00:57:09] It's not going to do any good.

[00:57:10] I think what galvanized her is, well, wait, the thing I was critical about is all their phones

[00:57:16] start beeping.

[00:57:17] And I think that was supposed to be like this emergency response system that we have now

[00:57:21] where you see like a child's missing or there's a extreme weather or something.

[00:57:26] But they didn't have that in 2010 when the zombie apocalypse happened.

[00:57:30] And so, I mean, that's right.

[00:57:32] Yeah, you're right.

[00:57:33] Like maybe they all were getting calls about it, but they wouldn't all get called at exactly

[00:57:37] the same time.

[00:57:38] So yeah, that was a bit of a ding.

[00:57:41] But anyway, I was still excited that, oh, good.

[00:57:44] We're going to see some zombie action where nobody knows what the hell to do.

[00:57:47] And then the great way to make use of that sort of iconic glass pyramid that is the entrance

[00:57:53] to the Louvre and she's on one side and her husband's on the other.

[00:57:56] And then she says, I love you.

[00:58:00] And he says it back or something.

[00:58:01] And then you see her expression change.

[00:58:02] And then I love that the zombie behind him was very Romero-esque, pale blood.

[00:58:09] And then it bites him.

[00:58:11] And then you see her face.

[00:58:12] Oh my God.

[00:58:13] That's the first zombie she ever saw.

[00:58:15] And it's eating her husband.

[00:58:16] And then his blood splatters onto that glass.

[00:58:19] It was a pretty good and tragic scene.

[00:58:22] Yeah, it was well done.

[00:58:24] And now that to knowing that she blames the zombies for some reason on the elite, I feel

[00:58:30] like that moment probably is what galvanized her to go from being cynical and uninvolved

[00:58:37] and unmotivated to being a leader of a movement, you know?

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:41] I hope, I don't think they'll go into it, but I'd love to see her rise to power.

[00:58:47] I guess it would be a different show.

[00:58:48] Yeah, maybe they have so little time to work with, you know?

[00:58:53] Six episodes a season.

[00:58:55] Yeah.

[00:58:56] One other thing that I've talked about this a little bit before, but this is a great example

[00:59:02] where I loved the show Lost.

[00:59:04] It had its flaws for sure.

[00:59:06] But it was interesting if you never watched it.

[00:59:08] It's about these people trapped on this mysterious deserted island where they crashed in their

[00:59:13] plane, in a plane.

[00:59:15] And weird stuff was happening there.

[00:59:17] And every episode, they would do flashbacks, usually showing a single character what it

[00:59:22] was like for them before the island.

[00:59:24] And that show ended in 2010 in May or something.

[00:59:30] And then Walking Dead started in October of 2010.

[00:59:33] And to me, it felt like Walking Dead was maybe the spiritual successor to Lost, especially because

[00:59:38] the showrunners used to joke that the next season of Lost would be the zombie season.

[00:59:45] And then Walking Dead came out.

[00:59:47] But I always felt like Walking Dead would be another great show to use that formula on where

[00:59:54] they would show a flashback of a character.

[00:59:56] Yeah.

[00:59:57] Because especially in the zombie apocalypse, it would be interesting to see if people were

[01:00:01] exactly the same, which to me shows integrity.

[01:00:04] Like, if you're the same before and after something like that, you've got a real strength of character.

[01:00:09] Or how it would change people, too, which I also wouldn't judge because it's a huge deal.

[01:00:12] But some people may be docile before, like Janae, and then find their strength.

[01:00:20] Or it might go the other way around, just to kind of show that.

[01:00:23] So I just thought this was a good...

[01:00:26] It felt like I was watching Lost, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[01:00:31] I watched Lost when it came out.

[01:00:33] I love that show.

[01:00:34] And we're re-watching it right now.

[01:00:38] So it's timely.

[01:00:39] It's kind of neat that you just brought that up.

[01:00:42] Thanks.

[01:00:43] Because I do, I am seeing parallels.

[01:00:45] And I guess this is the same with any show.

[01:00:47] I'm like, oh, that happened in The Walking Dead.

[01:00:49] Oh, that happened in The Walking Dead.

[01:00:51] And I can't cite specific examples, but yeah, I get it.

[01:00:56] Okay, I have only one more point.

[01:00:58] What about you?

[01:00:59] Me too.

[01:00:59] And it goes to art in the apocalypse.

[01:01:05] And I love this theme through the whole Daryl Dixon show.

[01:01:09] And I think this is mostly a Norman Reedus thing.

[01:01:12] But yeah, it works.

[01:01:13] I like it.

[01:01:14] I do.

[01:01:15] And one of it, the religious paintings, this is kind of Jeanne again, but she scoffs at

[01:01:22] the religious paintings with the false hope like we talked about.

[01:01:25] And she points out that one particular painting, The Deluge.

[01:01:28] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:30] I didn't research this because I knew I was podcasting with you today.

[01:01:34] Oh, because you know I'm a geek.

[01:01:36] Figured you would.

[01:01:37] Yeah, I did.

[01:01:37] I was so curious.

[01:01:38] I almost majored in art history, so it intrigued me.

[01:01:42] So the painter, I can't do the French, Giraudet, I don't know.

[01:01:49] She was a front runner, or he was, in romantic art.

[01:01:54] The painting depicts the same family.

[01:01:58] They're being overcome by a flood.

[01:02:01] And the husband, they're trying to escape the elements of nature, which is also timely

[01:02:07] to our life right now.

[01:02:10] So initially, people thought she was talking about the great flood, Noah and whatnot,

[01:02:16] the biblical flood.

[01:02:18] So Jeanne misses the point because if she actually knew anything about the painting,

[01:02:24] the painter was just saying this is just Mother Nature, a sudden impartial inudation produced

[01:02:30] by a convulsion of nature.

[01:02:33] He absolutely denied that it was religious.

[01:02:37] So he also, he was in the French Revolution, and he was a victim of it.

[01:02:44] He didn't die, but suffered.

[01:02:46] And he said a direct quote in a journal, how many people set upon the reefs of the world

[01:02:52] and in the midst of social tempest and trust like this family, their health and fortune

[01:02:58] to rotten supports.

[01:02:59] The social tempest was likely an allusion to the revolution and the rotten supports.

[01:03:04] This is a possible reference to Napoleon.

[01:03:08] People looked at Napoleon as the godlike figure that was going to save them from despair.

[01:03:14] And they didn't put, they put their faith in a savior rather than themselves or just,

[01:03:20] they didn't think rationally.

[01:03:21] Again, it's that belief in something, some human, I guess that's, you know.

[01:03:27] Yeah.

[01:03:27] It's like magical thinking.

[01:03:29] Magical thinking.

[01:03:30] They seem great.

[01:03:31] They'll probably solve it.

[01:03:32] Exactly.

[01:03:33] Yeah.

[01:03:33] Like sheep.

[01:03:34] We're a bunch of sheep.

[01:03:37] Yeah.

[01:03:38] So I just like the use of art in this.

[01:03:41] I think it's very well thought out.

[01:03:43] Like that school in the previous season, Simone did something.

[01:03:47] She was a supported children and woman, which I liked.

[01:03:52] But it's not so false.

[01:03:54] It's not so Norman Reedus-y throwing in his art love.

[01:03:57] I did a little bit of research on historical saving of art during times of war.

[01:04:05] One was, you know, Matt Damon just produced a documentary, Kiss the Future, about the war

[01:04:13] in Sarajevo and how people just kept up having underground shows.

[01:04:18] And I think you too got involved at one point.

[01:04:22] Henry Rollins has talked about traveling the world and in wartime, war zones.

[01:04:27] And people come up to him and like, oh, we have this cassette tape and we're passing it

[01:04:32] around Europe.

[01:04:33] And it's all underground punk rock music.

[01:04:35] You know, the movie Monuments Men?

[01:04:37] Have you seen that?

[01:04:39] Oh, I recommend everybody see that.

[01:04:42] It's about the Nazis were taking all the artwork and burning it or selling it or whatnot.

[01:04:49] And I think it was President Roosevelt at the time.

[01:04:52] Sorry, history buffs out there.

[01:04:56] He put together a task force to go and retrieve all this artwork and save it from the Nazis.

[01:05:02] And it's based on a true story.

[01:05:06] So French Revolution, a bunch of religious artwork, as we saw, was saved from destruction.

[01:05:11] Dolly Madison saved the artwork from the White House when it burned in 1812.

[01:05:17] I just love it.

[01:05:20] I just love that it's real life and it's art is going to survive no matter what.

[01:05:25] And maybe that's stupid, but it's human history.

[01:05:29] I mean, it reminds me of my favorite episode, maybe of the series where they went to the

[01:05:35] Demi Monde and there's art there.

[01:05:38] And it's a little weird because Quinn was the one collecting it all just so he could have

[01:05:42] it, you know, but it still created this great space.

[01:05:46] And the point was, I think the episode was called Paris Will Always Be Paris in French.

[01:05:52] Yeah.

[01:05:53] Toujours sera Paris.

[01:05:54] But yeah, there's that idea.

[01:05:57] But yeah, and I also like your interpretation of this work of art because it very much does

[01:06:03] explain and sort of clarify that both sides of this battle, Union de l'espoir and Pouvoir

[01:06:13] des vivants are both kind of flawed in the same way where they put someone up as the ultimate

[01:06:20] power versus having the power within themselves.

[01:06:23] And so then Daryl and Isabelle get to, and Laurent hopefully, well, you would hope would get

[01:06:30] to reject both of those and go off on their own.

[01:06:32] But now that we know that Isabelle has 100% been bitten, it's not going to happen.

[01:06:37] Well, we don't know 100%, but my family and I, we disagreed on that strongly.

[01:06:43] They're like, no, it doesn't look like a bite.

[01:06:44] I'm like, yes, it does.

[01:06:45] Something took a chunk out of her.

[01:06:47] Oh God.

[01:06:47] I don't know.

[01:06:48] Yeah.

[01:06:48] I don't know.

[01:06:49] I don't know.

[01:06:49] We'll see.

[01:06:50] Yep.

[01:06:50] All right.

[01:06:52] That was great.

[01:06:53] I'll do my last point.

[01:06:54] Okay.

[01:06:55] It's probably a little bit more of a downer.

[01:06:58] It's Daryl, the action movie star.

[01:07:02] So Daryl infiltrates the nest and kills Sylvie to end this ceremony.

[01:07:09] He fends off dozens of oncoming attackers, and it really did feel like Bourne Identity, which

[01:07:14] I love.

[01:07:14] I love those Matt.

[01:07:15] Well, the first one, Matt Damon.

[01:07:18] And then they eventually overpowered him.

[01:07:21] And I was like, why wouldn't they kill him?

[01:07:24] But maybe it was just because they wanted him to tell them where Laurent was.

[01:07:29] Right.

[01:07:30] Because he just killed a bunch of their people.

[01:07:34] So.

[01:07:35] Single-handedly.

[01:07:37] Good for him.

[01:07:37] And I thought this plan of three people walking into this heavily fortified place and taking

[01:07:44] Laurent by force when there are dozens of guards seems really dumb.

[01:07:49] And I think it's even worse than Rick marching into the Vatos compound in season one.

[01:07:55] Oh, yeah.

[01:07:56] It's like Daryl figured, eh, we'll just be able to sneak away.

[01:07:58] And if I need to, I can just take them all.

[01:08:00] I'm sure I'll be fine.

[01:08:02] That was the plan.

[01:08:04] Right?

[01:08:04] Yeah.

[01:08:05] Yeah.

[01:08:05] And I'm glad the plan failed because it would be way too ridiculous if it didn't.

[01:08:10] But it makes me feel, A, that Daryl's not that smart.

[01:08:14] And B, that Daryl's lucky to be alive.

[01:08:20] But not really because it's Daryl.

[01:08:21] It's the Daryl show, right?

[01:08:22] Exactly.

[01:08:24] And then when they're sneaking around the grounds and Daryl's killing people and he knifed one

[01:08:29] right under the chin, you know, that's when I first had the thought that this was maybe

[01:08:33] my least favorite episode because, and this is maybe more particular to me than most people,

[01:08:39] but I don't really like mindless action movies that much as a rule.

[01:08:43] And every time he kills somebody, I'm like, okay, it makes sense that you would kill these

[01:08:50] people because they were trying to kill Laurent and you're trying to get away.

[01:08:55] But also they're just misguided people.

[01:08:58] They have families.

[01:09:00] I, I, am I supposed to think it's cool or fun that you're just going around killing a lot

[01:09:05] of people?

[01:09:06] Am I supposed to be celebrating that?

[01:09:07] I also don't like John Wick.

[01:09:09] So.

[01:09:10] Oh, I was just going to say that.

[01:09:11] I don't like John Wick either.

[01:09:12] Except the puppy, you know.

[01:09:14] And this, I mean, it's beautiful, but it's also horrifying to me.

[01:09:18] And so, um, and I, I don't want to watch two hours of somebody just killing massive amounts

[01:09:23] of people.

[01:09:24] So that's really what it made me feel like.

[01:09:26] And, um, and I, there is there all that said, there's a part of me that can appreciate how

[01:09:33] cool it is that he had fought with such style and the different ways and all that with John

[01:09:37] Wick and with Daryl here.

[01:09:38] But for the most part, it just leaves me feeling bad.

[01:09:42] Like, oh yeah, I just saw a bunch of people die who probably just needed to be deprogrammed

[01:09:46] or something.

[01:09:48] Yeah.

[01:09:48] I didn't, I didn't actually go down so deeply on that one.

[01:09:52] Cause I really was so impressed with the cinematography.

[01:09:55] Yeah.

[01:09:55] Um, and it was like a ballet dance as well.

[01:09:59] I don't, I don't like action movies for two hours.

[01:10:01] I get bored.

[01:10:02] I won't even watch them.

[01:10:03] My favorite is, um, Mad Max Furiosa.

[01:10:06] I love that.

[01:10:07] That was great.

[01:10:08] It's beautiful.

[01:10:08] But it's very artful.

[01:10:10] Okay.

[01:10:11] So I did have a point about the, um, the ceremony.

[01:10:16] First pre-ceremony, Sylvie goes rogue, storming through Mont Saint-Michel yelling, Laurent,

[01:10:23] Laurent, as Los Angeles men come at her.

[01:10:26] And she's walking on this like ramparts and they're coming slowly from both sides.

[01:10:31] And then suddenly she just goes flying over the edge.

[01:10:34] And it looks to me like it was suddenly Monty Python or something, or she fell on a, uh, she

[01:10:41] fell on a, um, catapult.

[01:10:49] And, and, and, and I thought it was contrived for her to die just for the drama of being

[01:10:54] a zombie.

[01:10:55] It didn't, not much time passed either, but there's that rule that the amount of time

[01:11:00] it takes for a person to turn into a zombie is whatever would be the best for the story

[01:11:05] or most dramatic.

[01:11:07] Yeah.

[01:11:07] Wait, did we didn't, did she turn right away?

[01:11:10] I thought they just brought her out later.

[01:11:12] Yeah.

[01:11:12] So no, she didn't turn right away.

[01:11:13] She, um, we saw her laying in a pool of her own blood.

[01:11:17] Losang comes over.

[01:11:18] He looks genuinely upset because it's a great actor, but his line is her faith was weak,

[01:11:24] which is like, yeah, her faith was weak.

[01:11:26] That's why this happened.

[01:11:28] But, um, then, yeah, I guess we don't see how much time passes.

[01:11:32] So you're right.

[01:11:33] I mean, the later we see Losang is readying Laurent to step into the spiritual role.

[01:11:38] He says, and Laurent says he's excited.

[01:11:41] And I was thinking, you'd think they'd try to get Laurent to buy in rather than making

[01:11:46] this a surprise.

[01:11:46] But then it turns out that he did know what was about to happen.

[01:11:50] And so I'm like, how long has he known that?

[01:11:54] And then later in the cave with Falou, when Falou says you're special, some things are

[01:12:00] true just because we believe them.

[01:12:01] And Laurent says belief wouldn't make me survive a bite.

[01:12:04] So I'm like, wait, is that what you thought before?

[01:12:07] Or did you just realize that?

[01:12:09] Because if you thought that before, then why were you going along with it?

[01:12:13] I'm a little confused about.

[01:12:15] I don't.

[01:12:16] Yeah.

[01:12:16] They didn't clarify it, but I didn't get the feeling he knew about it before.

[01:12:20] I felt like he was just getting ready for some ceremony that would.

[01:12:25] He was finally coming into his own, but he didn't know what was going to happen.

[01:12:29] I assumed Falou told him.

[01:12:32] Okay.

[01:12:33] Because, well, he probably maybe figured something was off when this zombie was coming at him.

[01:12:38] Yeah.

[01:12:39] But there was something that made me think he did know, but now I can't remember what

[01:12:42] that was and it's not in my notes.

[01:12:43] So I'm not sure.

[01:12:44] Yeah.

[01:12:44] Maybe you're right.

[01:12:45] He didn't.

[01:12:45] Maybe he didn't know.

[01:12:46] Um, so then they're at this, um, big holy ceremony and, um, Daryl comes in and shoots,

[01:12:57] uh, Sylvie.

[01:12:58] And I already kind of went over this, but it just kind of made me feel like not only did

[01:13:05] the nature of Lo Sang seem to change between season one and season two, but the nest as well.

[01:13:10] Like the nest was the goal, at least for Isabel Laurent for all of season one.

[01:13:15] And when they finally got there, we only had like a half an episode, but it seemed like this

[01:13:20] religious group that seemed great.

[01:13:23] And then now half of them are trying to kill.

[01:13:28] I mean, they're just having a ceremony where you have a zombie bite a kid out of faith that

[01:13:34] he's immune.

[01:13:35] Then you're nuts if you're doing something like that.

[01:13:36] And I don't know if the writers had that in mind during season one.

[01:13:40] Maybe they did.

[01:13:42] Maybe.

[01:13:43] It felt like they probably just were like, okay, what are we going to do for season two?

[01:13:46] How are we going to generate some conflict here?

[01:13:49] Oh, there's only one bad guy.

[01:13:51] We need to make some other characters, bad guys, or bring new people in.

[01:13:56] So they decided on the first option, you know?

[01:13:59] Yeah.

[01:13:59] I mean, I still like Lo Sang.

[01:14:02] You still like Lo Sang?

[01:14:03] I do.

[01:14:04] I like the evolution.

[01:14:05] I see what your point that it didn't seem natural, but I kind of saw.

[01:14:10] I thought that woman, what's her name again?

[01:14:13] Jacinta.

[01:14:14] Jacinta.

[01:14:14] I thought she was kind of a sudden character that was thrust in.

[01:14:18] Yeah.

[01:14:19] They needed someone in there because I think you're right.

[01:14:22] I think that is what they're getting at with him that he's being pushed.

[01:14:27] She's a bad influence.

[01:14:30] She's pushing him in the direction of being more extreme.

[01:14:32] Yeah.

[01:14:33] And even though I've complained and criticized so much, I still do like his character too and think he's a really interesting character.

[01:14:42] I wish he was, in my estimation, better written, but I still think he's pretty good.

[01:14:48] Yep.

[01:14:49] And for the nest, I think the majority of people there are just truly faithful.

[01:14:53] I love how they do different religions and not stick to one.

[01:14:58] Yeah.

[01:14:59] Yeah.

[01:14:59] But I think Losang and Jacinta, that's it, had a small army, like kind of the inner circle.

[01:15:08] Yeah.

[01:15:09] Yeah.

[01:15:10] As a lot of these groups do, like the governor and his guys.

[01:15:14] Exactly.

[01:15:14] Yeah.

[01:15:15] All right.

[01:15:16] Got any notes?

[01:15:18] Not really.

[01:15:19] I have one observation I like.

[01:15:23] As much as I complained about Daryl's or Norman Reedus' tattoos, I do like the continuity that he has a limp still from fighting Alpha.

[01:15:33] I like it.

[01:15:34] No way!

[01:15:34] Are you serious?

[01:15:36] Yeah.

[01:15:36] I didn't even know that.

[01:15:38] He's like old man Daryl now.

[01:15:40] And it's like it's arthritic in a way.

[01:15:42] Yeah.

[01:15:43] Norman Reedus has a very particular way of moving.

[01:15:46] He does.

[01:15:47] Right.

[01:15:47] It's a little different.

[01:15:49] He's different as this Daryl, this version.

[01:15:52] He's incorporating that wound.

[01:15:55] I love that.

[01:15:56] Yeah.

[01:15:57] That was cool.

[01:15:58] That's it, really.

[01:15:59] I thought, I actually thought Carol on the White Horse was pretty stirring.

[01:16:03] It was, you know, the music helped, you know?

[01:16:07] Yeah.

[01:16:08] I was actually kind of bummed that it got cut short so quick.

[01:16:11] They got us all hyped up and then...

[01:16:13] Yeah.

[01:16:14] And it was a big horse.

[01:16:15] But she kept saying, go, go.

[01:16:17] You know, that's where the French would have come in handy there.

[01:16:22] Allez-vous!

[01:16:23] Yeah.

[01:16:25] Another note.

[01:16:26] I'm realizing that we're all, well, maybe not all of us, but a lot of us have been in a hurry for Daryl and Carol to get together.

[01:16:34] But if this, not get together as a couple, just to reunite, I should say.

[01:16:39] But if this show goes a few seasons, then we will get a lot of that.

[01:16:44] And this right now is the only chance to see her do stuff on her own before she gets to him.

[01:16:49] Yeah, I agree.

[01:16:50] It's kind of like when people want, when, let's see, Walking Dead season five, the end of four and the beginning of five.

[01:17:01] They were, they didn't have a home base and they were on the road, on the road to Terminus and then after that.

[01:17:08] And people watching the show were impatient for them to find a place to settle.

[01:17:12] And I was thinking, because I was a comic reader, well, they're going to settle in Alexandria and then they're just going to be there for the rest of the time.

[01:17:19] And so let's enjoy this because this is different and unique.

[01:17:23] And I did, that's actually my favorite era of the Walking Dead right there.

[01:17:26] I love it.

[01:17:26] The character development.

[01:17:29] Absolutely.

[01:17:29] Excitement.

[01:17:30] I agree.

[01:17:31] Yeah.

[01:17:32] And I like the slow burn.

[01:17:34] I like, I'm not impatient at all.

[01:17:37] Yeah.

[01:17:42] Probably we'll meet up next episode, but I've enjoyed having these first three episodes with Carol doing stuff on her own.

[01:17:49] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:50] Yep.

[01:17:50] Agreed.

[01:17:51] And last, I already said it, but with how complainy I've been, I hope this episode doesn't break the spell for me with the show.

[01:17:59] I don't think it will, but we'll see.

[01:18:03] It won't.

[01:18:04] I won't let it happen.

[01:18:05] Okay.

[01:18:06] Write in and convince me otherwise you're pretty good at that.

[01:18:09] I will.

[01:18:09] Well, I don't, well, thank you for the compliment, but I will definitely pound it home.

[01:18:15] Sweet.

[01:18:16] Yeah, I guess that's it.

[01:18:18] All right.

[01:18:18] Only on the Walking Dead would you only stand like three feet away from your experimental rage zombies.

[01:18:25] Yep.

[01:18:26] I had only on the Walking Dead.

[01:18:29] Can Carol tell the truth about sperm donors and insane environmentalists?

[01:18:33] And it sounds like a little child telling a lie.

[01:19:08] Yeah.

[01:19:08] Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens.

[01:19:10] The people he kills get up and tip.

[01:19:12] Are they slow moving, chief?

[01:19:14] Yeah, they're dead.

[01:19:15] They're all messed up.

[01:19:17] This is a...

[01:19:21] Okay.

[01:19:22] One thing this week, Norman Reedus told Entertainment Weekly about his first on-screen kiss ever, and I thought it was kind of funny.

[01:19:31] It was in this movie called Dark Harbor, which came out in 1998.

[01:19:37] Apparently, he kissed Alan Rickman in the movie, but also actress Polly Walker, who I guess was in...

[01:19:45] What's that show that everyone watches that's like a romance?

[01:19:49] Oh, Bridgerton.

[01:19:49] Yeah, Bridgerton.

[01:19:52] And that's the one he's talking about here.

[01:19:54] He says, it was my first big passionate kiss right on the screen.

[01:19:58] The actress, Polly Walker, was super, super patient with me, but I went in full tongue.

[01:20:04] And then she was going...

[01:20:06] And it just says, mimics painful grunting.

[01:20:09] And I was like, what the fuck is happening?

[01:20:12] And then we did it again, and I went in full tongue, and she's just going...

[01:20:16] I went to the director, and I said, she's going...

[01:20:20] What does that mean?

[01:20:21] I can't tell if she's telling me don't or getting into it.

[01:20:24] Couldn't tell what it was.

[01:20:26] And then he said, the director starts laughing, and he goes, Norman, you idiot.

[01:20:29] You don't really stick your tongue in her mouth.

[01:20:31] And I was like, oh shit, I'm sorry.

[01:20:33] And I went to her, and I'm like, sorry, I've never done this before.

[01:20:36] And she's just like, it's fine.

[01:20:38] But that was the first kiss I ever had on camera.

[01:20:41] Oh, did you?

[01:20:43] I saw that movie.

[01:20:44] Oh yeah?

[01:20:45] Dark Harbor.

[01:20:46] It was good.

[01:20:48] It could have been better.

[01:20:49] But did you read Alan Rickman's diaries?

[01:20:53] He mentions that movie.

[01:20:55] He kind of writes about Norman Reedus.

[01:20:58] Well, first of all, he said something like, this guy, I love him.

[01:21:02] How can I love him and Polly so much?

[01:21:04] And what are they going to do with him in Hollywood?

[01:21:06] Because they won't know where to put him.

[01:21:10] So that was one thing.

[01:21:11] But it's the boondock saints.

[01:21:14] My son and I are getting boondock saints tattoos.

[01:21:17] Nice.

[01:21:18] Which I'm kind of like, you're only 18.

[01:21:20] Do you really want to do this?

[01:21:21] Maybe we shouldn't.

[01:21:22] But oh well.

[01:21:23] You're doing it.

[01:21:24] We're doing it.

[01:21:27] He strongly alluded to the fact that he kind of had a crush on Norman Reedus.

[01:21:35] After that kiss?

[01:21:36] Yeah.

[01:21:37] I wonder if he used full tongue with Alan Rickman.

[01:21:39] Oh God.

[01:21:41] Sorry, Alan.

[01:21:42] I don't want to picture that.

[01:21:45] It was a good read.

[01:21:47] It's my first time, Alan.

[01:21:50] Oh yeah.

[01:21:52] That was kind of a good gossip.

[01:21:53] And if not, then why not?

[01:21:54] I thought that's what you thought you were supposed to do.

[01:22:04] All right.

[01:22:05] That is our show.

[01:22:06] Episode 604.

[01:22:08] Thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:22:09] Dina, thank you for coming on.

[01:22:11] It was a pleasure.

[01:22:12] And you added.

[01:22:12] Thank you.

[01:22:13] You brought it a lot.

[01:22:14] So I appreciate it.

[01:22:15] You mentioned that you've written some romance books.

[01:22:18] How do people find those?

[01:22:21] Don't, first of all.

[01:22:22] And what if they just can't help themselves?

[01:22:25] If they can't help themselves.

[01:22:26] They're on Amazon.

[01:22:28] So Dina Karatsis?

[01:22:30] Yes.

[01:22:31] Very good.

[01:22:31] You speak Greek, see?

[01:22:33] K-E-R-A-T-S-I-S.

[01:22:35] Check them out, everybody.

[01:22:37] Next episode will be The Walking Dead, Daryl Dixon, Season 2, Episode 4, La Paradis Pour

[01:22:42] Toi, which means Port-a-Potty Parody.

[01:22:45] No, just kidding.

[01:22:46] Paradise for you.

[01:22:48] I like Port-a-Potty better.

[01:22:51] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all of our contact

[01:22:56] information at podcastica.com.

[01:22:59] Yeah.

[01:22:59] And while you're there, please check out all our other podcasts.

[01:23:03] Check out Sportscastica by David on podcastica.com or the Agatha All Along ones going on right

[01:23:13] now.

[01:23:14] From is really hot.

[01:23:17] We've got all kinds of stuff going on.

[01:23:19] Are you watching From?

[01:23:21] It's on my list.

[01:23:23] It's, it's, I think you, yeah.

[01:23:25] It's a lot of the same people who did Lost are doing it.

[01:23:29] One of the main writers of Lost and Mike, Harold Perrineau is the star, the guy who played

[01:23:35] Walt's dad.

[01:23:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:23:37] Michael.

[01:23:37] I don't know what his name is.

[01:23:37] Michael.

[01:23:38] Yep.

[01:23:38] I'm such a big fan.

[01:23:40] Yeah.

[01:23:41] It's, it's, it's scary.

[01:23:42] It's like a scarier version of Lost.

[01:23:44] Oh, excellent.

[01:23:45] And so this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Stephanie Hortch, who pledged

[01:23:50] their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi.

[01:23:53] So thank you to Stephanie.

[01:23:55] Stephanie's a local Bay Area person who I got to meet when she came to the Walking Dead finale

[01:24:00] that we had, which was totally awesome.

[01:24:02] It was great to meet her.

[01:24:03] Um, a couple of Patreon things.

[01:24:05] Uh, we're doing a call-in show next week where a bunch of the Zed heads who had a weekend

[01:24:12] vacation in Texas recently are going to talk about what the trip was like and sort of reminisce.

[01:24:17] They're all having post-vacation blues, so I thought it'd be fun to get them together

[01:24:20] and tell us about the highlights.

[01:24:22] Oh, great idea.

[01:24:22] That'll be fun.

[01:24:24] All right.

[01:24:25] That is our show.

[01:24:26] Uh, thanks for listening and thanks for having me.

[01:24:29] Absolutely.

[01:24:29] Don't get bit Madeline Jo.