613: "Arrow on the Doorpost" (TWD S3E13 Rewatch)

[00:00:03] The Cast of Us

[00:00:37] I was trying to sort it out when you attacked.

[00:00:40] So it was his fault?

[00:00:42] He's a wild card, but he's effective.

[00:00:46] He gets the dirty jobs done.

[00:00:50] I thought you take responsibility.

[00:00:54] I thought you were a cop, not a lawyer.

[00:00:59] Either way, I don't pretend to be a governor.

[00:01:03] I told you I'm that leader.

[00:01:04] You're the damn drunk who knocked over my fence or ripped up my yard.

[00:01:10] Nothing more.

[00:01:43] Hey Zet Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason.

[00:01:45] And I'm Lucy.

[00:01:47] And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 613.

[00:01:50] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, Season 3, Episode 13, Arrow on the Doorpost.

[00:01:57] Back to the rewatch.

[00:01:59] I brought you here today, Lucy, to make a deal.

[00:02:01] If you hand over Peter, I will leave you alone.

[00:02:05] I'm fine with both of those.

[00:02:06] Yep, you can have him.

[00:02:08] He's out at the moment.

[00:02:09] No thought required.

[00:02:10] Once he's back, he'll go.

[00:02:13] He left, he went out to D&D to me and just went,

[00:02:16] To Jason, I love him.

[00:02:17] And I'm like, I always do.

[00:02:18] But then like, you know, I just like, you can tell him yourself.

[00:02:22] Yeah, that's fine.

[00:02:22] I have no qualms about that.

[00:02:24] You can just go for it.

[00:02:25] I'm sure it'll be fun.

[00:02:26] All right. We'll see you later.

[00:02:27] Right. Bye.

[00:02:30] Bye.

[00:02:30] So good to be back on the rewatch.

[00:02:32] I know some people are glad that we're back.

[00:02:36] They've been saying they miss it.

[00:02:37] So here we are.

[00:02:39] Yay.

[00:02:39] I found it really hard this week getting back into the zone.

[00:02:42] I'm glad we're back in the zone, but I feel like having been very distracted by the election

[00:02:48] and Daryl Dixon and all of that,

[00:02:51] it did feel a bit jarring to suddenly be time traveling back to season three.

[00:02:55] It's a nice place to time travel back to,

[00:02:58] but I definitely, if I sound a bit less,

[00:03:01] I don't know, enthusiastic or something on this one, I am.

[00:03:04] I'm just getting my head around being back in it.

[00:03:06] I remember watching season three feeling like,

[00:03:09] oh good, it's still good, even though Darabont's gone.

[00:03:13] And then when we got to these episodes thinking,

[00:03:16] feels like they're spinning their wheels a little bit here.

[00:03:18] And now watching it, I feel differently,

[00:03:21] but not completely differently.

[00:03:24] I'm probably enjoying it more than I did back then is what I'm trying to say,

[00:03:27] but I can understand why I would have felt that way.

[00:03:30] So that might be part of it for me anyway.

[00:03:32] I don't know about you, but also we took this break.

[00:03:36] And so I just have a few points to remind us where we are in the story.

[00:03:43] Brilliant. Please do.

[00:03:44] Because I'm like, what happened?

[00:03:45] It's really short, but I mean,

[00:03:46] I think the most important things or some of the most important things were

[00:03:50] that the governor lost his purpose for living really, in my opinion,

[00:03:55] because his zombie daughter Penny was killed by Michonne and he's just pissed now,

[00:04:00] especially at Michonne,

[00:04:02] but also Rick and just wants revenge at any cost.

[00:04:05] That's where we left him.

[00:04:07] Rick had been losing himself to darkness and despair,

[00:04:10] mostly over having failed to keep Lori alive.

[00:04:12] He was going kind of crazy, but then we had clear when he saw that Morgan had descended into insanity

[00:04:18] and callousness over the guilt of losing his wife and son.

[00:04:22] And I think Rick saw that as a bit of a wake up call, like, okay, I better get my shit together.

[00:04:27] I still have people alive that I care about, so I'm going to care again.

[00:04:32] That's what I got out of that.

[00:04:33] And then on a lot more logistical level, the governor has been training and preparing all his people for war,

[00:04:39] including age 13 and above, I guess.

[00:04:43] And Rick and Michonne had picked up a bunch of guns and ammo to fight back

[00:04:47] and decided that they did not want to leave the prison.

[00:04:50] They wanted to try to keep it.

[00:04:52] So those are some points.

[00:04:54] And just to put that in context, Judith was born eight days ago.

[00:04:59] What has happened in eight days?

[00:05:01] Yeah.

[00:05:02] And Merle, Merle, Merle left.

[00:05:05] Why did, oh, I guess because the governor was pissed that Merle had lied about killing Michonne,

[00:05:12] so he pit Merle and Daryl together in a fight.

[00:05:15] And then Rick came into Woodbury and sprung Glenn and Maggie in and all the chaos.

[00:05:22] Merle and everybody ran away.

[00:05:24] Yep.

[00:05:25] Merle went to the prison.

[00:05:26] That just about sums it up.

[00:05:27] I also have a plot summary here for this episode.

[00:05:30] Did you want to read that one?

[00:05:32] Yeah.

[00:05:32] Plot summary.

[00:05:34] Andrea arranges a meeting between Rick and the governor.

[00:05:37] Daryl and Herschel bond with Martinez and Milton.

[00:05:39] Glenn reconciles with Maggie.

[00:05:42] Sorry.

[00:05:42] The governor offers peace if Rick gives him Michonne,

[00:05:45] but prepares to kill Rick's group regardless.

[00:05:49] That's a very concise summary, but it's pretty accurate.

[00:05:53] So what did you, how'd you feel about it?

[00:05:56] Uh, this, the summary or the episode, I'm guessing.

[00:06:00] Yeah, I enjoyed it.

[00:06:01] I, I, there's a thing that really bothers me in this episode that like almost prevents me from enjoying it.

[00:06:08] And it's how painfully awkward I feel for Andrea in this episode because she is so dismissed by everyone except Herschel, who's kind to her.

[00:06:19] Um, and I find that really hard to watch as someone.

[00:06:23] And I'm not going to say as a woman, because it can happen to anyone in weird power dynamics, but anyone who's been kind of dismissed or not listened to when you're doing your best and people are not paying attention.

[00:06:35] I think it's, it's not great that she's the woman in this episode who that is happening to.

[00:06:39] And she is annoying as hell.

[00:06:41] But that moment where they kind of both are mad at her and dismiss her to go outside.

[00:06:46] Oh God, I just find it really hard to come back from that.

[00:06:48] That's really hard.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:50] Rick's pissed at her and I'm like, Rick.

[00:06:53] Oh yeah.

[00:06:54] It's the worst.

[00:06:55] Yeah.

[00:06:55] And honestly, having a break from the series.

[00:07:01] So not being fresh from maybe her most annoying episode, which was the, maybe the one before clear, uh, where she decided not to kill the governor.

[00:07:11] Cause that's where we left her.

[00:07:12] Uh, I didn't find her annoying in this episode.

[00:07:15] I thought she was right on.

[00:07:18] Like the only thing is she should probably know by this time that she can't, she wants to broker peace, which is very, very, very, very, very, very, very.

[00:07:26] She should realize by this point with what she knows of the governor that that's not going to fly.

[00:07:31] But aside from that, I mean, she's trying to do the thing to keep the most people alive in both, both places.

[00:07:38] And that's totally way more admirable than wanting to just fucking go to war, you know?

[00:07:44] She's doing exactly the right thing in terms of trying to broker peace, trying to do something.

[00:07:49] If I was to criticize her for one thing, it would be that like, well, it's something that I think Rick has called,

[00:07:55] what we love to in this episode a little bit.

[00:07:57] And the governor names it is, is good faith negotiation.

[00:08:01] Um, the governor is doing nothing in good faith.

[00:08:03] No.

[00:08:03] Nothing.

[00:08:04] But the people around him believe that he might be, I don't think Rick really does, but Andrea still does.

[00:08:10] Andrea still believes there's a good faith resolution.

[00:08:11] Rick thinks there's a chance.

[00:08:12] Yeah.

[00:08:13] Rick's not certain one way or the other.

[00:08:15] He thinks probably not, but maybe.

[00:08:16] Yeah.

[00:08:16] He wants to believe that there is.

[00:08:18] And the governor's just like.

[00:08:20] And the governor.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:21] Not at all.

[00:08:22] And Rick would, would negotiate in good faith if he had a partner that was negotiating good,

[00:08:26] good faith.

[00:08:27] Yeah.

[00:08:27] Exactly.

[00:08:28] Yeah.

[00:08:29] And I find that, I just find, yeah, I think you're right.

[00:08:33] I think in this episode, Andrea is pretty innocent of being a knob.

[00:08:38] I'm going to say her dickhead, her dickhead status is not on the record in this one.

[00:08:42] Um, and I just find it really difficult how, how dismissed she is.

[00:08:47] It's an ugly side to both Rick and the governor that they are so dismissive of her.

[00:08:51] And there's a lot of testosterone in this episode, particularly between Martinez and, um.

[00:08:59] Daryl.

[00:09:00] Daryl.

[00:09:00] And it's the, the, the pairings, it's like two men.

[00:09:02] There's Rick and the governor.

[00:09:03] There's Herschel and Milton, which I loved.

[00:09:05] Daryl and Martinez, which I loved.

[00:09:07] Like, I love all those pairings, but Andrea really sticks out like a sore thumb in all of this.

[00:09:12] And she knows she does.

[00:09:13] Like, from the time she gets there, they've not told her that the governor is coming early.

[00:09:17] It's becoming ever more clear that she is not a part of any of this anymore, despite thinking

[00:09:21] she was like the first lady of Woodbury.

[00:09:24] She's really not.

[00:09:26] And that's got to fucking sting at this point.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] And I mean, on a meta level, people really were annoyed with her and they had some good

[00:09:37] reasons for sure.

[00:09:39] But, um, I find her less annoying on in this rewatch than I did on, uh, I think maybe,

[00:09:47] I don't know, I'd have to go back, but I think I always found her a little less annoying

[00:09:51] than most people.

[00:09:51] But, um, cause I'm really trying to parse out what is her motivation here?

[00:09:56] What does she know?

[00:09:57] What does she not know?

[00:09:58] And when you look at it closely like that, I think from, from my point of view, anyway,

[00:10:04] she's not doing as badly as, uh, as I think a lot of people say she is there.

[00:10:10] There are points where she does occasionally, but especially like when she left Beth with

[00:10:14] that knife, I just like, fuck you for that.

[00:10:17] But there's a lot of things where I think, Hey, she's just trying to help the people of

[00:10:21] Woodbury right now.

[00:10:22] She should have killed the governor in his sleep.

[00:10:24] You know, she probably should have done that.

[00:10:27] But we're not, I think for the same reasons that she's trying to do this negotiation now,

[00:10:33] we're not at that stage yet mentally.

[00:10:35] She's not at that stage yet mentally to be able to kill someone in their sleep.

[00:10:38] And we're still holding onto those vestiges of what life was like before and humanity.

[00:10:44] Right.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:45] And, and if, and it's hard to remember that when you're watching a TV show where we just

[00:10:49] get numb to the idea of killing someone and think, why don't you kill them?

[00:10:52] But if you think about what a real person, yeah.

[00:10:55] Like if you're at home and your, um, your partner said something annoying, why don't you

[00:10:59] kill him?

[00:10:59] No, you're not going to kill him.

[00:11:00] You're going to talk about it.

[00:11:02] And I guess that's hard in scale.

[00:11:03] So I think this is another way in which coming into the rewatch is an interesting juxtaposition

[00:11:11] is because in the last few episodes of the Daryl show that we watched, there were so many

[00:11:16] red shirts and people just dying all over the shop.

[00:11:19] Like there was meaningless slaughter and Daryl and other characters we've come to know

[00:11:23] and love do that.

[00:11:25] It's become John Wick.

[00:11:26] People are getting killed all over the place.

[00:11:28] So it is really funny in a sense to look back and be like, watch Rick agonizing over one

[00:11:34] thing or watch Andrea not stab a guy in his sleep and be like, ugh.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:40] And I'm more, yeah, I think, um, I just get the sense that a lot of people prefer the Daryl

[00:11:49] way.

[00:11:49] I don't know if I'm going to say most, but a lot where it's like, ah, just kill.

[00:11:53] Who cares?

[00:11:54] It's, it's, it's a movie.

[00:11:55] You know, don't, don't like if someone agonizes over killing someone, they're weak.

[00:12:01] It's funny, isn't it?

[00:12:02] I think with the walking dead, there is a bit of the old frog in boiling water in that

[00:12:06] we start off.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:07] Oh yeah.

[00:12:07] Believable.

[00:12:08] And then by season 10 or 11, we're like, oh yeah, that's normal just to like set all

[00:12:13] those zombies on fire and have them do this and do that and do this.

[00:12:16] That's no big deal.

[00:12:16] Even by season five, we're kind of getting there.

[00:12:19] Um, and I think that was, it was kind of nice in a way to come back into an episode that

[00:12:24] was based around this very small scale conflict and this attempt to resolve it in quite an

[00:12:30] old school political way.

[00:12:33] And I find that particularly interesting given, and I'm not just talking about America right

[00:12:38] now.

[00:12:38] I'm talking about like all over the world right now.

[00:12:40] There's a lot of governmental change and the way that we understand politics is changing

[00:12:45] and the way that people negotiate is changing.

[00:12:47] And there's this kind of new populist way of doing politics that doesn't really tie in

[00:12:52] with old school diplomacy.

[00:12:54] And it's about trying to be the biggest celebrity that people are entertained by the most.

[00:13:00] Yeah, there's no more like sitting.

[00:13:04] I read a really interesting book called Politics on the Edge by Rory Stewart and Rory Stewart,

[00:13:08] he hosts them.

[00:13:09] The rest is Politics UK, which is like, they call themselves the centrist dads podcast, which

[00:13:14] is pretty accurate to be honest.

[00:13:15] But one of the things that fascinates me is he's like this old school politician who went

[00:13:20] into everything with good faith and assumed everyone around him was acting in good faith

[00:13:25] and became super disillusioned within like two years.

[00:13:28] He's like, nobody's acting in good faith.

[00:13:30] Nobody prepares their speeches.

[00:13:32] Nobody does shit.

[00:13:33] No one knows anything.

[00:13:35] I'm the only one doing it.

[00:13:36] And I really felt for Andrea in this episode that like she's coming into it thinking these

[00:13:41] are two reasonable men.

[00:13:43] And for various reasons, neither of them is reasonable at this particular moment.

[00:13:47] Although I guess Rick is quite reasonable.

[00:13:50] I would argue Rick is.

[00:13:51] Although see, I wondered, we're kind of getting into my point about Andrea.

[00:13:57] Can I just go into it?

[00:13:58] Yeah, I'm kind of skirting mine as well.

[00:14:00] So go for it and we'll get there.

[00:14:01] Okay.

[00:14:03] So first off, just as far as whether I liked the episode, I did enjoy it.

[00:14:07] I think it's the kind of episode you can only have in longer seasons, shows with longer

[00:14:11] seasons, because it did feel a bit padded out, like it's spinning its wheels with this long

[00:14:16] conversation.

[00:14:17] But you could charitably say this is the governor and Rick in this sort of psychological cat and

[00:14:23] mouse game.

[00:14:24] So it was interesting to see how that developed, you know, and it was fun to watch the pawns,

[00:14:29] how they interacted outside the summit, you know.

[00:14:33] And I think also on first watch, like we didn't know, we knew that there was going to be a big

[00:14:40] confrontation, most likely between the governor's group and Rick's group.

[00:14:43] And we were just sort of waiting, when is it going to happen?

[00:14:45] And we figured, are they going to save it to the end?

[00:14:48] Well, now that we know it's episode 16, we're not like waiting for it.

[00:14:53] We can more just enjoy this for what it is.

[00:14:55] So I thought it was more enjoyable probably than I did when I first saw it.

[00:15:00] So, so Andrea, Andrea, I, she, I like that she put this summit together.

[00:15:07] And as I said, her heart's in the right place.

[00:15:10] And I admire that.

[00:15:10] But she knows, I said this in a previous podcast, but she knows the governor sent people to kill

[00:15:15] Michonne after pretending that Michonne could leave and that he kidnapped Glenn and Maggie

[00:15:23] and that he forced Daryl and Merle to fight to the death.

[00:15:27] And then he, that he went to the prison and attacked it and then lied about it saying they

[00:15:31] attacked first.

[00:15:32] He, she knows he's arming and training his people down to 13 year olds to go to the prison

[00:15:37] and attack and lying to the people about why.

[00:15:39] And I don't remember if she knows about Penny and that Michonne killed Penny and that this

[00:15:47] is kind of why the governor is doing all this.

[00:15:50] She finds him holding Penny.

[00:15:52] So she must know.

[00:15:53] She must.

[00:15:54] So if I don't know how much she realizes what that means, I'd say if you're trying to broker

[00:16:01] peace between two parties, you need to understand where they're both coming from.

[00:16:06] So hopefully she understands what that means.

[00:16:08] But anyway, her solution is to mark this boundary between the prison and Woodbury and both sides

[00:16:14] agree not to cross it and leave each other alone.

[00:16:17] And watching them talk about that, I got the feeling like this is probably not too much

[00:16:22] different from how states and countries formed early on.

[00:16:26] Like people who are against each other agree.

[00:16:28] All right, we're having this barrier.

[00:16:29] You don't cross it and we'll, you know, then you'll be safe.

[00:16:32] If you do, we're going to kill you.

[00:16:35] I was going to say the title of the episode comes from part of that, what you were just

[00:16:39] saying.

[00:16:40] It's in my IMDB dive.

[00:16:42] But the idea of Arrow on the Doorpost.

[00:16:45] The title Arrow on the Doorpost comes from the practice of many Native American tribes sticking

[00:16:50] a tomahawk or arrow into a tree or gatepost marking the outer boundary of their land during times

[00:16:55] of war with others.

[00:16:57] The tomahawk or arrow would be planted at the beginning of the conflict and not removed

[00:17:01] until the conflict was resolved.

[00:17:02] In some modern Native American families, this tradition has been updated and the family

[00:17:07] will similarly mark a post on a veranda or tree in the front yard while a family member

[00:17:12] in service to the military is deployed in combat.

[00:17:17] Wait, so we were talking about boundaries, put it there so that people know to signify

[00:17:25] what?

[00:17:26] That they're away, that they're in battle.

[00:17:28] But what's the point of doing that so that people will leave them alone or just?

[00:17:33] I think it's just commemoration.

[00:17:35] Oh, okay.

[00:17:35] Okay.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:36] It's just significant.

[00:17:37] But it's a boundary.

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:38] That makes sense as far as how this, that's interesting.

[00:17:41] So then, yeah, the governor asks Andrea to step out and Rick agrees.

[00:17:48] I came to talk to him and that made me wonder what if Andrea had stayed?

[00:17:53] How would things have gone?

[00:17:55] Right.

[00:17:55] Because I think, you know, the governor's clearly there to get one thing for Rick to

[00:18:01] agree to bring Michonne back there so that he can capture Michonne and kill Rick's people.

[00:18:07] And he's, I don't think he's going to be happy coming away with anything other than that.

[00:18:11] And so with Andrea there, she would never would have agreed to give up Michonne.

[00:18:16] They probably would have come to an impasse and then they would have not had any agreement,

[00:18:23] but at least they would all know for sure where they really stood.

[00:18:26] It wouldn't have been as interesting of a story maybe, but I just think that you totally understand

[00:18:32] why the governor would want her away.

[00:18:34] But Rick maybe should have said, no, she's, she's our middle man or middle person, whatever.

[00:18:40] Let's have her stay and help us negotiate this.

[00:18:44] You know, like there's often a middle party when there's two sides negotiating like that.

[00:18:50] And Andrea is actually kind of perfect because she has ties to both sides and wants to see

[00:18:53] peace.

[00:18:54] And Rick presumably wants to see peace too.

[00:18:57] So I honestly, and she used to be a lawyer, I honestly think that he would have been better

[00:19:02] off keeping her there.

[00:19:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:05] But it turns into a dick swinging contest.

[00:19:07] Yeah.

[00:19:08] Why would Rick not want her there?

[00:19:10] And I'm thinking maybe just because he thinks that the governor probably isn't even listening

[00:19:17] to her anyway.

[00:19:18] And the governor's the one that he needs to talk to, but still.

[00:19:21] I think Rick still doesn't quite trust her either because that's his big thing when she

[00:19:26] comes to the prison is he's like, what have you told your boyfriend?

[00:19:28] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:19:29] And I mean, okay, I will say this.

[00:19:31] Rick's not wrong because like the governor knows a lot about Rick's personal lives.

[00:19:35] Like Andrea has been talking, but no shade.

[00:19:39] It's fine.

[00:19:40] I would chat too.

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:41] Maybe that's what it was.

[00:19:42] I mean, I feel like it's more just a plot thing that they had Rick say that because

[00:19:48] they didn't want, the writers didn't want Andrea there because they knew that she wouldn't

[00:19:52] have accepted what the governor said.

[00:19:54] Yeah.

[00:19:55] It's also to enhance this idea that Andrea I think is completely isolated.

[00:19:58] Like she's not super, if they turned up and they were just like, you're our girl, Andrea,

[00:20:02] you come back with us right now.

[00:20:04] We'd love you, babe.

[00:20:04] Like the tension of her, she would never, you know what I mean?

[00:20:08] It would make no sense for her to go back to Woodbury.

[00:20:11] I mean, it's tenacious at this point either way, but I think she has to kind of be isolated

[00:20:16] from both sides.

[00:20:17] So I think you're right.

[00:20:18] I think it is a writer decision with a couple of different things playing on it.

[00:20:22] So then all else I had to say about this is that she goes outside and she's talking

[00:20:27] to Herschel and she says, what happened with Maggie?

[00:20:30] And I don't know what spurred her to say that.

[00:20:33] Had Maggie come up earlier?

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:35] Rick says pointedly in front of Andrea, he's like, I know about what you did.

[00:20:40] So it goes Maggie and you can see Andrea be like, what?

[00:20:43] Okay.

[00:20:44] So then Herschel just says he's a sick man and she starts crying and it's like just every

[00:20:50] little new piece of information that she gets about the governor.

[00:20:53] She's like, okay, he's, he's an evil person.

[00:20:56] He's a bad man.

[00:20:57] And she says right then, I don't want to go back with him.

[00:20:59] So now she's like just fully decided he's, he's, he's fucked.

[00:21:03] But Herschel says, you can come with us, of course, but if you join us, it's settled.

[00:21:07] And I'm, I wasn't sure if he meant, if you go come with us, you can't ever go back to

[00:21:13] Woodbury.

[00:21:14] Or if he meant, if you come with us, that's going to cause trouble or cause war or something.

[00:21:19] I wasn't sure what he meant by it's settled, but she said, I know.

[00:21:22] I mean, like you can't, you can't go back and forth again.

[00:21:25] Like it's got to be, that's you there.

[00:21:28] Yeah.

[00:21:28] Yeah.

[00:21:29] So she has to go back and then, uh, I actually watched next week's episode, uh, because I'm

[00:21:37] not going to be here for the podcast.

[00:21:39] So I had to make a clip for you guys, but, uh, I won't talk about it.

[00:21:43] I can't wait to find out which one.

[00:21:45] Um, yeah, well, I had a bunch of stuff on Andrea.

[00:21:48] Um, just the way that throughout this whole episode, she's on the back foot, she's been

[00:21:53] left out of the plan for the governor arriving early.

[00:21:58] She clearly thought she would be key to these negotiations and she absolutely is not in any

[00:22:02] way, shape or form.

[00:22:03] They can't get rid of her quickly enough.

[00:22:05] Um, she gets spoken over, right?

[00:22:08] Gets angry at her.

[00:22:09] She's physically dismissed.

[00:22:10] She's like sent from the room, which is mortifying.

[00:22:13] Cause she kind of has to walk out there to the sort of, I don't want to say lackeys because

[00:22:18] we know it's not quite like that, but it's that optic of like, oh, I've been sent out

[00:22:22] from the big boys table to come and sit outside.

[00:22:24] And it is, yeah, it's, it's, they have no power.

[00:22:27] Yeah.

[00:22:28] And then that moment where Martinez and Darrell are sort of.

[00:22:33] Hosturing against one another, killing these heads and she comes in with her knife and

[00:22:36] then kind of goes off rolling her eyes.

[00:22:38] She just doesn't fit.

[00:22:39] She doesn't fit in either place.

[00:22:41] She doesn't fit in the negotiation room.

[00:22:42] She doesn't fit.

[00:22:44] With these two guys who are again, kind of showing off, killing these zombies.

[00:22:48] Like she's just at a complete loose end.

[00:22:51] Um, I felt really sad for her when she asked about Maggie, because I think that's the last

[00:22:55] possible part of her that romantically loves the governor is gone at that point.

[00:23:01] Like, I don't think there's any coming back from it.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:04] And it should have been gone before, but it really is now.

[00:23:08] It has to be now.

[00:23:09] Like it just has to be.

[00:23:11] Um, Michonne still worries about Andrea when Merle and Michonne are having their little chat.

[00:23:18] Um, Michonne doesn't want to go in case Andrea gets hurt.

[00:23:20] And that really broke my heart because they had such a nice friendship.

[00:23:24] And then they don't.

[00:23:25] Well, yeah, I mean, they were fighting, but you know, friends fight sometimes.

[00:23:30] I would be surprised if Michonne wasn't worried about her.

[00:23:33] They do.

[00:23:34] And these final scenes where they get back to Woodbury, the polite distance between Andrea

[00:23:39] and the governor, oh, says so much.

[00:23:42] You know, he makes it clear that she is not privy to like his ideas anymore.

[00:23:47] Um, she barely gets a nod for setting it up and getting the whole thing together.

[00:23:53] And they go their separate ways.

[00:23:55] And of course, we know from what he says to Herschel, uh, to Milton, that they're going

[00:23:59] to war.

[00:23:59] Like everything was bollocks.

[00:24:01] Like nothing, nothing of it was real.

[00:24:03] I kind of love that because like, yeah, all this negotiation with Rick and then we're

[00:24:09] wondering, um, or we're thinking, uh, you probably can't trust anything he said.

[00:24:13] And then immediately he's like, yeah, we're going to kill them all.

[00:24:15] I just love they didn't waste any time revealing.

[00:24:18] Just going to kill them all.

[00:24:19] And Milton's like, but that's a slaughter.

[00:24:22] He's like, well, he goes, wait, what about the deal?

[00:24:24] And the governor goes, well, that's the best way to avoid a slaughter.

[00:24:27] And he goes, that is the slaughter.

[00:24:30] That's why they keep him around for the science.

[00:24:33] Um, I did also laugh because I feel like this episode has your favorite scene in it.

[00:24:39] Uh, I forgot now.

[00:24:41] With Milton and Herschel.

[00:24:43] Where Maggie and Glenn have, oh, I'm just kidding.

[00:24:45] Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:24:46] No, no, the other, other favorite scene.

[00:24:48] Yes, that like, that is the only, like, we are getting into a part of The Walking Dead

[00:24:54] where I have very little memory of the specifics and what memory I do have.

[00:24:59] It tends to come from the bad lip reading videos.

[00:25:03] Same!

[00:25:04] But, uh, I, uh, did remember that scene, yeah, with, with Herschel and Milton for sure.

[00:25:10] Yeah, I, I, I was going to say, I mean, almost one of my points was, good Lord,

[00:25:14] most of this episode has been thoroughly wrecked, um, by bad lip reading.

[00:25:21] Like, every, every time the government saw something, I was like, and that's how they do it.

[00:25:25] On Broadway.

[00:25:28] It's so bad.

[00:25:30] It's been overly memed.

[00:25:32] I can't.

[00:25:32] I love it.

[00:25:33] I wouldn't.

[00:25:34] So good.

[00:25:35] Change it.

[00:25:35] So good.

[00:25:38] Okay, my turn?

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:41] Okay, should I go through the negotiation or should I talk about the, the pawns?

[00:25:48] Ooh, what would you prefer?

[00:25:51] Should we negotiate?

[00:25:52] I guess we'll go through the negotiation.

[00:25:54] Cool.

[00:25:55] So just kind of going through it as it played out.

[00:25:58] We, we see, first we see Rick and Daryl moving in on this location with their weapons at the ready.

[00:26:04] Cool, silent, open.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:06] Nobody talks till three minutes 17.

[00:26:07] It's cool.

[00:26:08] And we're not sure what's going on because we saw them get weapons, you know, from where Morgan was, but we didn't know that they were going to, it seemed like they were proactively going into attack, right?

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:23] We didn't know this was some kind of a meeting.

[00:26:25] No.

[00:26:25] And so I like how they set it up, making it seem like they're ambushing someone and then the governor's just there with a grin on his face.

[00:26:31] Hey.

[00:26:32] Yeah.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:33] He's like, hello.

[00:26:34] That was a fun setup.

[00:26:35] Um, the governor says he could have killed them all, but didn't he tell us Rick that.

[00:26:41] And, uh, I'm like, no, that's not true.

[00:26:44] And governor says later on Rick's people are better trained, but the governor has more people.

[00:26:51] But when he attacked the prison, he didn't have all of them.

[00:26:55] He he's been training people since then.

[00:26:57] But if he could have killed them all when he attacked the prison, he would have, because we know from the end of this episode, that's exactly what he wants to do.

[00:27:03] So he's just saying, he's saying a lot of things in this negotiation to frame things certain way to manipulate the situation to get what he wants.

[00:27:13] When he's like, oh, I don't think I want your prison.

[00:27:15] It sounds horrible.

[00:27:16] Yeah.

[00:27:16] You clearly want the prison.

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:18] And it's like you said, the way politicians don't argue in good faith.

[00:27:22] That's, that's what the governor's doing when he puts his gun on the table to show that he wants to negotiate in good faith.

[00:27:28] I remember thinking you can't trust him.

[00:27:31] Uh, he's probably going to make a move.

[00:27:32] And then we see that he does have a gun taped under the table.

[00:27:35] Um, but I, you know, kind of liked that it wasn't Chekhov's gun.

[00:27:39] It was just there for insurance.

[00:27:41] Uh, it made it.

[00:27:42] It's a good shot as well.

[00:27:43] It's smart.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:44] But, and it makes us worried the whole time that he might use it, but it's so taped on.

[00:27:51] Like I was thinking that about her as well.

[00:27:53] I was like, how are you going to get that off real quick?

[00:27:55] Like, ow, my leg here.

[00:27:57] Do you have a, do you have a pocket knife or something?

[00:27:59] Do you have a knife or anything, Rick?

[00:28:00] Sorry.

[00:28:01] I just, it's no reason.

[00:28:02] I just need to like do something.

[00:28:03] I like to whittle.

[00:28:04] I like to whittle.

[00:28:06] That is funny.

[00:28:07] Um, I, I wondered what stopped Rick from just killing him right there.

[00:28:12] What do you think?

[00:28:13] I mean, I think it's part of that holding onto humanity.

[00:28:21] And I think prior to this, everyone's going to be like, you're very wrong.

[00:28:25] Has Rick killed anyone man on man since he killed Shane?

[00:28:31] Uh, yeah, I guess not.

[00:28:34] I, I think maybe it's more about just wanting to see what happens here because,

[00:28:44] if you kill the governor, then maybe there's somebody else who would just lead his people

[00:28:52] to attack you.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:54] You know, like Martinez or somebody.

[00:28:56] So maybe it's just more about, all right, let's try to see what the situation is here and see if I can get some control over it without just causing the war.

[00:29:04] Because why would the governor just come here and be open unless he thought that, you know, I, I don't know.

[00:29:10] The governor's playing with his mind just by being so vulnerable.

[00:29:13] Like, oh, well, maybe that's not the right thing to kill him if he's just going to be vulnerable like that.

[00:29:17] Yeah.

[00:29:18] And yeah, Rick is in a very, a very fresh mental distress stage.

[00:29:27] Like, you know, there's, there's, he's not, he's not the full ticket right now.

[00:29:30] He's getting there.

[00:29:31] But yeah, Judith's eight days old.

[00:29:33] Things are, things are fresh.

[00:29:35] I liked his demeanor throughout this.

[00:29:37] He, he seems very intense, just high alert, but also aggressive.

[00:29:43] Like I'm not someone to be fucked with and I'm here to make a deal.

[00:29:48] And if you don't do that, then you're going to fucking regret it.

[00:29:52] Just got this real intensity about him, you know?

[00:29:54] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:55] And he did the Rick run with his like arms down by his side at the start.

[00:29:59] Like his kind of stealth run.

[00:30:00] He does that?

[00:30:01] I didn't even know that.

[00:30:02] I love it.

[00:30:02] I love it.

[00:30:03] The Rick run.

[00:30:03] Uh, so Andrea proposes that they don't cross a boundary, you know, that they set a boundary

[00:30:10] that neither one will cross.

[00:30:11] Rick mentioned some river.

[00:30:12] The governor says no, that he's only there for their surrender.

[00:30:16] And I think that's another tactic, you know, ask for something big to ultimately land on

[00:30:21] something smaller.

[00:30:23] And I think Rick probably knows that, uh, there's a lot of posturing between them needling each

[00:30:28] other, Rick being kind of critical that, oh, you call yourself the governor and, um,

[00:30:34] and Rick's everything.

[00:30:36] He says, I love this line.

[00:30:37] You're the town drunk who knocked down my fence and ripped my yard.

[00:30:40] Nothing more.

[00:30:41] Yeah.

[00:30:41] I love that.

[00:30:42] He fucking tells him it's great.

[00:30:44] And then the governor says, Andrea told me about your baby.

[00:30:47] That might be your partners, but you're caring for her.

[00:30:50] And I admire that he's saying he admires it, but he's needling him.

[00:30:53] Like you got cheated on, you know, he's such a deck.

[00:30:58] I love it.

[00:30:59] And I totally didn't remember that governor or I didn't remember that anyone had acknowledged

[00:31:03] that Judith might be Shane's until Rick says it to Michonne five seasons.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:10] Like season seven.

[00:31:11] Seven.

[00:31:12] Yeah.

[00:31:12] Um, then he says, you're caring for her.

[00:31:16] And I admire that restitution for your own lack of insight for failing to see the devil beside

[00:31:20] you, which totally set him up Rick to say, oh, I see him.

[00:31:23] All right.

[00:31:24] Oh, I love that.

[00:31:25] Great line.

[00:31:26] I see him.

[00:31:26] And my first thought to that was, yeah, maybe his, you know, everything that happened with

[00:31:32] Shane has trained Rick not to trust people so easily anymore.

[00:31:36] But then I'm like, nah, he would never would have trusted the governor anyway.

[00:31:40] No, he's good at reading people that way.

[00:31:42] I think.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:43] So then, um, the governor tells Rick he's doing this because Rick broke in and shot up their

[00:31:50] streets.

[00:31:52] And I mean, he, Rick was doing that to save Glenn and Maggie, which the governor falsely

[00:31:57] blamed on Merle, their kidnapping.

[00:32:00] So he's just full of shit, uh, not negotiating in good faith.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:06] Then, um, he tells Rick about getting a call at work that his wife was in an accident and

[00:32:11] died.

[00:32:11] And I'm like, I don't know.

[00:32:14] That might be true.

[00:32:14] It might not.

[00:32:15] But whether it is or not, it's a total manipulation tactic.

[00:32:18] And it kind of works, I think, because Rick does relate about losing a wife and feeling

[00:32:26] like there's unfinished business there.

[00:32:28] You know, the governor's like, oh, she called me, but I don't know what it was about.

[00:32:31] What was she going to say?

[00:32:32] And that totally plays into Rick's feelings of unfinished business with Lori, I feel like

[00:32:38] because they were fighting.

[00:32:39] And right then Rick takes his first drink of this whiskey that the governor had put down

[00:32:43] and the governor, I think, got a look on his face like I'm getting to him.

[00:32:47] Yeah.

[00:32:47] You know?

[00:32:48] Yeah, definitely.

[00:32:49] There's definitely.

[00:32:50] And then he takes a very different sip of whiskey where he's like, mm-hmm.

[00:32:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:32:54] Exactly.

[00:32:56] Then the governor's saying, okay, we can fight this and it will go down to the last person

[00:33:00] and everyone dies.

[00:33:01] So he's pretty much just this whole time been saying, uh, everyone is, you're going to

[00:33:08] surrender.

[00:33:09] Everyone's going to die.

[00:33:10] You know, the worst thing's going to happen.

[00:33:11] Or what about this other thing?

[00:33:13] And that's when he says, um, uh, well, let's see.

[00:33:19] At first, Rick thinks the governor wants the prison.

[00:33:21] He says, we're not moving on.

[00:33:23] And yeah, that's what you said.

[00:33:24] The governor says, well, look at what that would do me best.

[00:33:26] You stay where I can keep my one good eye on you.

[00:33:29] And when he mentions his eye, that's a sign he's thinking about Michonne who took his other

[00:33:33] eye.

[00:33:33] And then he takes off his pass and says, I want, I want Michonne.

[00:33:38] But I think it's not, I think it's not really about revenge for his eye.

[00:33:45] It's about revenge for Penny.

[00:33:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:48] You know, maybe his eye some, but more about Penny.

[00:33:50] And like I said, I watched the next episode cause I'm not going to be here for it, but

[00:33:54] I am going to just quote one line from it because Milton thinks it's, well, Milton is critical

[00:34:00] that the governor wants to take Michonne and kill all of them.

[00:34:04] And the governor says, let me ask you something, huh?

[00:34:06] Do you still believe the biters have some spark in them of who they were?

[00:34:10] And Milton says, I think so.

[00:34:12] And the governor says, then that was my daughter.

[00:34:14] Wasn't it?

[00:34:14] And Milton says, whether that was Penny or not, it's done.

[00:34:17] It doesn't matter.

[00:34:18] And the governor says, oh, it's all that matters.

[00:34:20] And I just think that's like if he was on Fear of the Walking Dead reading off his character

[00:34:24] card, you know, but I don't mean to frame it in a way that's bad.

[00:34:29] I think it was good writing, but that's, I think that's just what he's all about that.

[00:34:33] He thinks there's a chance the zombies could be brought back.

[00:34:35] And so the way he sees it, Michonne killed his daughter and for no other reason than

[00:34:40] to spite him.

[00:34:41] And if I thought someone killed my son right in front of me just to spite me, I would

[00:34:44] probably want them dead too.

[00:34:45] So I can get a little bit of understanding of where the governor's coming from here.

[00:34:49] But I honestly think it's, I feel like Penny is a bit of a pretext sometimes.

[00:34:54] I think the governor had a darkness there before she was killed by Michonne that would

[00:34:58] have led to some of this anyway.

[00:35:00] But I agree that it's very much a like wildfire kind of sets the.

[00:35:05] Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:35:06] I, if you believe what he said about his wife, that she got in an accident and died, then

[00:35:14] this is speculation, but maybe there's a parallel between Morgan, Rick and the governor.

[00:35:20] They lost their wives and they became darker and the governor and Morgan both just kept

[00:35:26] going down that path.

[00:35:27] Morgan, it turns out it's really good at flip-flopping around.

[00:35:30] I don't know.

[00:35:30] But the governor goes dark.

[00:35:33] And so then, yeah, I mean, when we meet him, he's already a bad guy.

[00:35:40] But anyway, I do.

[00:35:44] I think that he's his whole purpose is Penny though.

[00:35:50] But I still don't think it's coming from a human place.

[00:35:54] It's coming from a broken place.

[00:35:56] I don't think there's any human left in him at this point.

[00:35:59] Yeah.

[00:36:00] It's just, it's just gone.

[00:36:02] I think he's gone into full kind of, I don't know if it's narcissism or what, but he's

[00:36:08] in a full high now because he knows what he's going to do and how he's going to get his

[00:36:11] revenge.

[00:36:11] And he's just not listening or understanding anything else around it because he doesn't

[00:36:16] want to.

[00:36:17] No.

[00:36:17] Yeah.

[00:36:18] I don't think he has any compassion for anyone.

[00:36:22] They're all just objects to be used or destroyed, which is very narcissistic.

[00:36:28] So then Rick says, you know, if I give you Michonne, how do I know you'll keep your word

[00:36:32] that you'll stop?

[00:36:32] And the governor says, you can have everything you want.

[00:36:34] I told you, I don't care about you.

[00:36:36] And I'm like, yeah, I would not.

[00:36:38] He hasn't earned any trust.

[00:36:40] There's no reason to trust him at all.

[00:36:42] He's in no good faith.

[00:36:44] Yeah.

[00:36:44] I mean, there's no reason Rick should trust that.

[00:36:46] The governor gives Rick two days to think about it, meet back there at noon.

[00:36:51] And yeah, that's the end of the negotiation.

[00:36:56] And it was all a massive hooking waste of time.

[00:37:00] I know.

[00:37:02] Yeah.

[00:37:03] It was.

[00:37:04] I mean, the best you can say about it is it had some entertainment value.

[00:37:11] Got them all out of the house for a bit.

[00:37:14] Right.

[00:37:15] Also, the governor dropping major hints that he's keeping an eye on the prison is quite

[00:37:19] creepy.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:20] And effective.

[00:37:21] Oh, I saw you brought some weapons the other day.

[00:37:24] So they should start scanning the horizon to see if there's like some guy up in a tree

[00:37:28] with binoculars or something.

[00:37:30] Really should.

[00:37:31] I mean, there's so few of them at the prison.

[00:37:32] There's probably five men watching and they're all just like, what?

[00:37:37] So what's next?

[00:37:39] Well, I'll go to the prison and talk about Glenn and Maggie.

[00:37:43] Like a brown girl.

[00:37:44] I get so upset now watching Glenn and Maggie scenes because I'm like, how much time do they

[00:37:50] have left?

[00:37:50] I get so sad about it because this I thought was actually quite a sweet scene.

[00:37:54] I did.

[00:37:55] Peter and I did end up having a massive conversation about sex on The Walking Dead and whether this

[00:37:59] was one of the most explicit sex scenes that we see.

[00:38:04] I think of Rosita and Abraham in the library.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:11] It feels like it's pretty, I feel like The Walking Dead is not a sexy show, but when it

[00:38:17] happens, I'm always like, oh, oh yeah.

[00:38:19] Oh gosh.

[00:38:20] Yeah, they do.

[00:38:20] Oh, right.

[00:38:21] Okay.

[00:38:21] It's not, it's not implied.

[00:38:22] It's happening.

[00:38:24] But what I like about it is that it's quite a sweet reconciliation between Glenn and Maggie

[00:38:29] because Glenn is really struggling.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:33] To keep the prison in check, I think, and to keep things, to keep his, keep his strength

[00:38:38] and his ego intact around Merle, which must be incredibly difficult.

[00:38:42] They end up having this physical altercation where Merle's trying to get out of the prison

[00:38:46] and so on.

[00:38:47] I forgot that they fought.

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:50] And we see Glenn standing on the kind of contemplative bridge or like an area where he's.

[00:38:56] He's supposed to be keeping watch.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:58] They're both supposed to be keeping watch, Jason.

[00:39:00] Maggie's supposed to be keeping watch as well.

[00:39:02] If everyone died, I hope they'd feel bad.

[00:39:04] However.

[00:39:05] That's what I thought was going to happen because I didn't remember because they're both

[00:39:08] supposed to be keeping watch and then they go, fuck.

[00:39:10] And I'm like, what if somebody comes and kills you?

[00:39:14] Close the door.

[00:39:15] I was like, could you get a boner in the zombie apocalypse?

[00:39:18] Like the smell and the noises.

[00:39:21] Anyway, whatever.

[00:39:22] They have a nice reconciliation where Glenn says, and I think he's right.

[00:39:27] And I liked his apology that he made what happened at Woodbury all about him.

[00:39:32] Maggie needed her space and he didn't give her that.

[00:39:34] And Maggie saying that she just wanted him to see her rather than what had happened.

[00:39:39] And I thought that's actually really nice, healthy resolution.

[00:39:44] Maggie saying to Glenn, I'm with you.

[00:39:46] I'm always with you.

[00:39:46] You know, made me think of Maggie.

[00:39:48] I'll find you.

[00:39:48] And then I got really sad.

[00:39:50] And then that was very emotionally confusing because then the scene got very horny very

[00:39:54] quickly.

[00:39:55] We saw some attractive people in their twenties going to town on each other, which is like,

[00:40:00] you know, good for them.

[00:40:02] So it was a nice break from the rest of the show.

[00:40:04] And it was nice to kind of have Maggie and Glenn reconciled to each other.

[00:40:07] I remembered that conflict going on a lot longer, but I think that's the joy of the rewatches.

[00:40:12] It's, it's easier to kind of see that it was actually only a couple of episodes.

[00:40:19] Yeah, I was relieved.

[00:40:21] But then when I scrutinized it on second watch, I was a little critical.

[00:40:27] Yeah.

[00:40:28] Just frame by frame.

[00:40:29] No.

[00:40:30] He said, you know, when we got back from Woodbury, I made it all about me and you needed your

[00:40:34] space and I didn't give you that.

[00:40:38] And it felt like what happened was that he was feeling critical of her for having been

[00:40:45] sexually assaulted.

[00:40:46] Right.

[00:40:48] We don't know for sure, but that's kind of how it seemed that he was mad at her for even

[00:40:54] it's illogical.

[00:40:56] Yeah.

[00:40:56] He was feeling frustrated at the.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:59] And, and like you, you did something with the governor, even though you had no choice.

[00:41:03] I'm mad at you for that.

[00:41:04] That's kind of what it felt like.

[00:41:05] And, you know, we've talked about that in the rewatch.

[00:41:07] Some listeners felt the same way.

[00:41:09] And so by saying I made it all about me, that's sort of addressing that, but it's not

[00:41:13] really pinpointing it.

[00:41:15] Like he should.

[00:41:17] And maybe we're getting it wrong, but I just feel like he should have said, wow, I was

[00:41:21] so wrong to think that you did anything wrong.

[00:41:23] You didn't do anything wrong.

[00:41:24] And I'm sorry.

[00:41:25] You know, that would have been better.

[00:41:28] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Whatever.

[00:41:30] I'm being too picky.

[00:41:30] I'm being nitpicky.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] She seemed happy.

[00:41:33] Really happy.

[00:41:33] And it did seem like he got over himself and that's good.

[00:41:37] And, but it also felt a little bit like, well, what happened to change him?

[00:41:41] Did he just need a little time to pass?

[00:41:43] It felt like the writers are like, you know, this story's bummed me out.

[00:41:46] Let's just end it.

[00:41:47] Let's have Glenn be a good guy again.

[00:41:49] Yeah.

[00:41:49] I think it's nice as well.

[00:41:52] I think I'm always a fan of like women because there was this kind of, not a fad, but there

[00:41:57] was a lot of discourse at the end of the naughty start of the 2010s around about Game of Thrones

[00:42:03] peak television time about how we depict sex and sexual assault on television.

[00:42:08] And one of the things that I liked about this scene was seeing someone who had been assaulted

[00:42:14] being able to reclaim a joyful and loving sexual relationship with somebody.

[00:42:19] I thought that was actually nice to see that depicted rather than have them be someone

[00:42:24] who's forever marked or forever struggles with it.

[00:42:27] Because, you know, women and men who are victims of sexual assault can go on to have massively

[00:42:33] fulfilling and happy lives.

[00:42:35] And I think it is nice.

[00:42:36] Well, Maggie, maybe not because Negan comes and kills Glenn, but that's a secret story.

[00:42:41] But in this case, it's nice to see that they didn't sort of take that away from her

[00:42:47] or take that capacity away from her.

[00:42:48] So yeah, I find that quite joyful.

[00:42:50] Me too.

[00:42:51] I mean, the whole thing is joyful.

[00:42:53] I want to see them together and happy.

[00:42:57] And like you said, we know what happens.

[00:42:59] So we want them to have as much happy time together as they can.

[00:43:03] Go ahead and bone kids.

[00:43:05] You have our blessing.

[00:43:07] Go to town.

[00:43:08] Go to town on each other while you can.

[00:43:10] Maybe you should do it when you're not supposed to be on watch, but whatever.

[00:43:13] Yeah, I was going to say, although as if I lived in the prison, I might be a bit like,

[00:43:16] really right now?

[00:43:16] Okay.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:18] Maybe call somebody out there first.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] I'm just thinking of poor Carl having to stand outside the shed.

[00:43:24] I know.

[00:43:24] I know.

[00:43:25] You're on watch.

[00:43:26] Carl's like, oh.

[00:43:27] Oh, can you go in the cell block B or something?

[00:43:32] No, we can't.

[00:43:33] We can't ask Herschel.

[00:43:34] We can't ask Herschel or Beth.

[00:43:36] That would be weird.

[00:43:36] And it's like, oh, God.

[00:43:41] Okay.

[00:43:42] I'm going to talk about, I call them the pawns because they're sort of underlings dealing

[00:43:50] with each other outside the negotiating room.

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:54] The two pairs, it's Milton and Herschel and Daryl and Martinez.

[00:43:57] And they're so different, the two pairs from each other.

[00:44:01] Milton and Herschel are less aggressive and Milton's cerebral and curious.

[00:44:06] Herschel is wise and spiritual and they get friendly really fast.

[00:44:09] And I just love that.

[00:44:10] Milton, all he had to say is someone has to keep a record of what we've been through

[00:44:13] and Herschel's like that makes sense.

[00:44:14] And then they're friends, you know.

[00:44:15] Milton's eyes lit up like a little kid who realizes that you like dinosaurs too.

[00:44:21] And they're like, you like dinosaurs?

[00:44:23] And you're like, yeah, do you want to see my dinosaurs?

[00:44:25] And you're like, yeah, go for it.

[00:44:26] Yeah.

[00:44:27] Because, yeah, because in this world where it's all about fighting and killing and strength

[00:44:33] and survival.

[00:44:35] And now you get to talk about like actually what it takes to have a civilization and someone

[00:44:40] cares about that.

[00:44:42] But and then while Martin, so Martinez and Daryl, they seem like adversaries at first.

[00:44:49] But then it's more like, oh, we're just trying to prove who's more badass as Andrea rolls her

[00:44:54] eyes.

[00:44:55] And then I realized it's actually just as much of a bonding and connecting thing as with Herschel

[00:45:00] and Milton.

[00:45:01] They're just doing it in their own ways.

[00:45:02] They're showing off.

[00:45:03] But then as each one of them shows off, instead of seeing the other as a threat, I think they're

[00:45:07] both just feeling more respect for one another.

[00:45:09] Like, oh, he's good.

[00:45:11] It's their language.

[00:45:12] It's the way that they do it.

[00:45:14] And yeah, there is.

[00:45:15] Yeah, that's absolutely it.

[00:45:17] And even more of a bonding thing is they recognize that they fill similar roles with their groups

[00:45:22] and they connect on that.

[00:45:25] Largely wordlessly, which I'm always impressed by when you can impart a lot without a lot of

[00:45:30] dialogue explicating it.

[00:45:31] And then when Daryl offers Martinez a cigarette and Martinez says, nah, I prefer menthols.

[00:45:37] And Daryl goes, douchebag.

[00:45:39] That's another thing that just made them respect each other more, I think, that posturing and

[00:45:45] like brothers.

[00:45:46] And then Martinez, just because Martinez right after that, he gets called a douchebag and

[00:45:51] his response is to be vulnerable.

[00:45:52] He mentions that zombies killed his wife and kids.

[00:45:54] And Daryl says, that sucks.

[00:46:02] Because now they, I think with very little words, they just feel like, okay, we're kind

[00:46:06] of similar.

[00:46:08] I get you.

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:09] And Martinez says, these negotiations are all bullshit and nothing's going to come from it.

[00:46:14] And Daryl's like, I know.

[00:46:15] And that was just like, it reminded me of war and how, and even, or like the polarization

[00:46:24] of politics here in the United States, where there's the, these situations outside of our

[00:46:30] daily lives that pit us against each other.

[00:46:32] And if those were gone, or like I was saying in a podcast before, a lot of times a war happens

[00:46:39] purely because of the psychodrama of the leader, like Putin invading Ukraine.

[00:46:44] It may just be part of his psychology and all these people, innocent people have to suffer

[00:46:49] for it when in other circumstances they could all connect and be friends, you know, it's

[00:46:55] the tragedy.

[00:46:56] Well, think about, um, you know, the story in world war one with the football, the soccer.

[00:47:01] Nope.

[00:47:02] And the trenches, the, the famously one Christmas, I think it was halfway through the war.

[00:47:06] So you've got these massive trenches on either side of no man's land, which is this like

[00:47:11] desolate area.

[00:47:12] That's just full of like artillery shells and they're stuck and they've been stuck for months

[00:47:16] and months and these young men on Christmas day put up white flags and they get up onto

[00:47:22] no man's land and they play football together.

[00:47:25] And then the next day they're back in their trenches shooting at each other again, but it

[00:47:29] happened.

[00:47:30] It really did happen.

[00:47:31] Um, it's incredible.

[00:47:32] And that, that was inherent in what Milton, uh, Martinez and Daryl were saying to each other

[00:47:37] when they're saying, you know, nothing's going to get resolved here.

[00:47:40] What was sort of unsaid is, and we're going to be trying to kill each other.

[00:47:45] Yeah.

[00:47:46] It's, and I think they had the most profound conversation in the whole episode.

[00:47:50] They were just like, yeah, this doesn't change anytime.

[00:47:52] It's like, nope.

[00:47:53] Um, sort of like in a Shakespeare play when like, I don't know, the two guards or like

[00:47:57] the two soldiers have a conversation when everyone else is doing all this stuff and they're

[00:48:01] just like.

[00:48:02] And they're right.

[00:48:03] Yeah.

[00:48:03] What they said was absolutely right.

[00:48:05] Absolutely right.

[00:48:06] Yeah.

[00:48:07] And Milton and Herschel talking about his leg and can I see your stump and it's important

[00:48:13] data.

[00:48:13] I'm not showing you my leg, at least buy me a drink first.

[00:48:16] And they start laughing.

[00:48:17] Yeah.

[00:48:17] I love that scene.

[00:48:18] And how excited Milton is to ask.

[00:48:20] He's like, I, uh, I, I just kind of want it.

[00:48:23] It's like, it borders on creepy.

[00:48:25] If you didn't know Milton and know that he's actually just jazzed about the science.

[00:48:29] Like, you're like, oh my God, who the fuck?

[00:48:31] But yeah, no, it's cute.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:34] It's like when you know, um, scientists, engineers, my wife's a doctor, you kind of parse things

[00:48:40] that they say through that and it comes off differently than if you didn't know, then

[00:48:45] it could be creepy.

[00:48:46] Or if you're just one of those weird people like me that likes gross pictures of like

[00:48:49] injuries and bruises.

[00:48:51] Cause I love that shit.

[00:48:51] Oh, that is weird.

[00:48:53] Yeah.

[00:48:53] I just love it.

[00:48:54] People like, do you want to see something gross?

[00:48:56] I'm like, yes.

[00:48:57] Show me.

[00:48:58] Like, I want to see it.

[00:48:59] I'm like, oh, unless it's to do with eyes.

[00:49:02] In which case I do not want to see it.

[00:49:04] Or spiders.

[00:49:06] Yeah.

[00:49:06] Not spiders.

[00:49:07] Not spiders.

[00:49:07] Yeah.

[00:49:08] But if it's a wound, a gaping wound.

[00:49:10] Literally all my phone algorithm wants to show me is like, mutant spider found in Norfolk

[00:49:15] Fens.

[00:49:15] I'm like, why do you want to show me that?

[00:49:17] The phone hates you.

[00:49:18] Awful.

[00:49:18] My phone hates me.

[00:49:19] Um, but yeah, if it's like a weird bruise or something.

[00:49:22] Oh yeah.

[00:49:22] I want to see that shit.

[00:49:23] That's cool.

[00:49:24] I hurt my leg when I was in Colorado by going downstairs.

[00:49:29] Wrong.

[00:49:29] Wrong.

[00:49:30] And, uh, I just went to the doctor to have it checked out and I didn't even notice it

[00:49:34] until I was at the doctor, but there's this bruise on my, on my foot.

[00:49:38] Not even where the wound is.

[00:49:39] It's like, it just showed up in some other spot.

[00:49:42] It's so weird.

[00:49:42] You bruised quite easily.

[00:49:44] Looking at it.

[00:49:44] No, it was just, this is kind of bad.

[00:49:47] It was so stupid.

[00:49:48] I bruise super easily, but like Peter, Peter doesn't bruise for like a week.

[00:49:53] Like he'll hit his arm or whatever.

[00:49:54] And then like a week later, this massive bruise will come up and I'm like, what is the deal

[00:49:58] with that?

[00:49:59] Apparently there's no science behind it, but yeah.

[00:50:01] That is weird.

[00:50:02] Bruises are weird.

[00:50:03] Uh, one more thing about this whole situation.

[00:50:05] I just thought it was interesting that Martinez is using a bat and, uh, you know, it makes

[00:50:10] you think of Negan.

[00:50:11] So I looked at the dates.

[00:50:12] This episode aired March 17th, 2013 and walking dead, the comic issue 100 where Negan kills

[00:50:19] Glenn with his bat came out July 11th, 2012.

[00:50:22] So almost a year earlier.

[00:50:24] And I think after that issue, you know, we saw at least two and maybe more instances of

[00:50:31] baseball bats in the show.

[00:50:32] Cause one was here and another one was at terminus with every time.

[00:50:37] Yeah.

[00:50:38] And I think that's them sort of indicating Negan is coming.

[00:50:41] I don't know, but it seems like it's a knowing kind of a thing, you know,

[00:50:45] It has to be, it has to be.

[00:50:46] You're dealing with nerds.

[00:50:48] Nerds like us.

[00:50:48] We're going to notice this shit.

[00:50:50] Exactly.

[00:50:51] I thought you meant the writers.

[00:50:53] I mean that too.

[00:50:54] Yeah.

[00:50:54] And they're like, Oh, we didn't know that wasn't a thing.

[00:50:56] I'm like, it was a thing.

[00:50:57] Shut up.

[00:50:58] It was.

[00:51:01] All right.

[00:51:01] I'm done.

[00:51:02] What else?

[00:51:03] You know, I might have covered all my main points.

[00:51:06] I think I might just have notes.

[00:51:09] I have a couple more.

[00:51:10] Go for it.

[00:51:12] Uh, so Merle, um, Merle, you know, he, he was really antsy.

[00:51:16] He wants to go try to kill the governor cause they know where he's at in this big

[00:51:20] good time.

[00:51:20] And as you said, Glenn's stopping him cause he's afraid it might get someone killed.

[00:51:25] He tried to make a deal with Michonne where they go in together and she show guns the governor's

[00:51:31] ass and he takes care of his men.

[00:51:32] And I thought Michonne maybe considered that for a second, but, um, said no.

[00:51:36] I sort of loved this, like, not quite flirtatious tone that the two of them have in this.

[00:51:43] I like, I do not think for a minute that either of them wants to bang the other, but

[00:51:47] it was something.

[00:51:48] I think Merle wants to bang Michonne, but.

[00:51:49] Yeah.

[00:51:49] I think Merle would bang Michonne, but she's so, I don't know.

[00:51:53] She has a lot of power in that scene.

[00:51:54] And when he's like, it must've been your electric personality.

[00:51:57] And she's just like, I loved it.

[00:52:03] But I was sort of thinking, did they just put this in there?

[00:52:06] Cause they needed to fill a few minutes, but I think it's sort of leading up to Merle

[00:52:10] taking matters into his own hands in a couple episodes.

[00:52:13] Cause I think in 15, he goes off to try to kill the governor.

[00:52:17] So they're sort of setting that up, I guess.

[00:52:19] And I think that's at the two day deadline, you know, they're saying like in two days,

[00:52:22] one of us will be here.

[00:52:24] I think Merle goes to kill the governor and that's when he gets killed.

[00:52:28] So yeah, I think Merle's on his final countdown now.

[00:52:31] Yeah.

[00:52:32] Yeah.

[00:52:32] Well, good riddance, I guess.

[00:52:35] Bye.

[00:52:36] Bye.

[00:52:38] The aftermath.

[00:52:39] So, uh, right after making this deal with Rick that if he handed over Michonne, the governor

[00:52:44] would leave Rick and his people alone.

[00:52:46] He goes to Martinez and says, position gunman around the feed store.

[00:52:50] And when they bring Michonne, kill everyone by her, which I kind of loved.

[00:52:53] Uh, and then Milton's what about the deal?

[00:52:55] And governor says, I have altered the deal.

[00:52:57] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:52:59] We could take care of all of them.

[00:53:01] It's the best way to avoid a slaughter.

[00:53:03] I froze.

[00:53:04] I paused it.

[00:53:05] And I'm like, he is talking about a slaughter.

[00:53:07] Then I hit play.

[00:53:07] And Milton's like, that is a slaughter.

[00:53:10] I'm going to try that at my bookshop job.

[00:53:12] I have altered the deal.

[00:53:14] Someone's like, but it says two for one.

[00:53:16] I'm going to be like, no, no.

[00:53:17] One for two.

[00:53:19] It's one for two.

[00:53:21] Uh, and then the governor, when he said that is a slaughter, Milton, the governor sort of

[00:53:26] turned and sort of bared into him.

[00:53:28] And Milton is scared, but holding his ground and the governor's gaze.

[00:53:32] Like, he's like, you're a bad man.

[00:53:34] And, and I think this is where Milton finally realized, okay, I'm not on his side anymore.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:40] He and Andrea are in very similar positions at this point.

[00:53:44] Yes.

[00:53:44] I think.

[00:53:45] Yeah.

[00:53:45] And yeah, that's when she walked by and the governor's like, oh, I set some terms with Rick

[00:53:49] and he has two days to answer.

[00:53:51] And she's like, oh, what are the terms?

[00:53:52] And he just smiles.

[00:53:54] All right.

[00:53:55] Fuck you.

[00:53:56] Bye.

[00:53:57] And at this point he should know he's losing Andrea and Milton here, but I just feel like

[00:54:02] after Penny died, he's just getting really reckless.

[00:54:05] You know, he's trying to hold his shit together just enough so that he can get all these fuckers

[00:54:10] to do what he wants and go attack, you know, but he's barely holding it together.

[00:54:14] Honestly.

[00:54:15] Yeah.

[00:54:15] I think he's, he can't see the wood for the trees.

[00:54:18] No, he doesn't care about anything anymore.

[00:54:20] And then back at the prison, Rick was in the main area telling everyone, because we're

[00:54:28] saying, okay, the governor just revealed what we suspected that he has no intentions of keeping

[00:54:32] up with this deal.

[00:54:33] He wants to kill them all.

[00:54:34] Then you see Rick telling everyone just that he wants us gone dead.

[00:54:37] He wants us dead for what we did to Woodbury.

[00:54:39] We're going to war.

[00:54:40] And my thought was good.

[00:54:41] He, he wasn't fooled.

[00:54:42] He knows what's up.

[00:54:43] He read the governor.

[00:54:44] Well, that's smart.

[00:54:45] He knows he only has two choices now fight or run.

[00:54:47] And he wants to fight.

[00:54:50] He says, oh, maybe, you know, we could give up Michonne and, uh, and the governor would

[00:54:55] keep his word.

[00:54:56] And it just reminded me of all the fretting that Rick did in season two about his decision

[00:55:02] making.

[00:55:03] But he, I was like, did he do that in front of everyone at that point?

[00:55:07] No, he mostly did it in front of Lori, but she's gone now.

[00:55:09] So Herschel has to take her place.

[00:55:13] He reaches out to stroke Herschel's ponytail.

[00:55:18] I just don't know what to do.

[00:55:19] Herschel.

[00:55:20] Later, Taylor.

[00:55:22] Did I do the right thing?

[00:55:24] Oh, that's bad.

[00:55:25] I think Rick does this, you know, we're getting into the kind of, I mean, the morality of The

[00:55:31] Walking Dead has always been a big feature of it.

[00:55:33] But that question of is Michonne's life worth more than your daughter's?

[00:55:36] Your daughter's.

[00:55:37] And we know, we're like, yes, of course, Rick, because she's the love of your life.

[00:55:40] Fuck off.

[00:55:41] But at this point, it is, yeah, what would you do to protect the people you love?

[00:55:45] And yeah, it's, it's valid.

[00:55:48] I mean, they should really just run away, like go somewhere else.

[00:55:51] I know that sounds weak, but it's better than fighting and losing people, you know, at this

[00:55:58] point.

[00:55:58] There's billions of people are dead.

[00:56:01] There's plenty of other, go to another prison or something.

[00:56:03] Literally, famously, the prison industrial complex has too many.

[00:56:08] So like, there will be another one somewhere.

[00:56:10] But yeah, yeah.

[00:56:11] But that would be no fun.

[00:56:13] So, I mean, I think Rick at this point anyway, is very much considering giving Michonne up.

[00:56:20] Otherwise, why have this conversation?

[00:56:21] Why ask Herschel that question?

[00:56:23] He says, I'm hoping you'll talk me out of it.

[00:56:25] I can't remember the details of what happens, but I'm assuming he decides not to, given that

[00:56:30] they are now married, right?

[00:56:32] And I don't think Michonne would ever forgive him if he'd.

[00:56:35] Imagine if that was like the, no, as I recall, he toys with it and she understands why, but

[00:56:45] he doesn't go through with it.

[00:56:47] Okay.

[00:56:47] Maybe he goes and gives her the choice or something.

[00:56:50] I think he maybe starts taking her, I don't know.

[00:56:53] We'll find out.

[00:56:54] We're just going to go to the field, the farm for a while.

[00:56:58] And she's like, mm-hmm.

[00:57:00] Wow.

[00:57:01] Wow.

[00:57:01] Yeah.

[00:57:02] I mean, if he tries to trick her into it and then she forgives him, that'll surprise me.

[00:57:07] I don't think he tries.

[00:57:08] I think she knows.

[00:57:09] I think it's one of those things where she's like, I know that this will be the term because

[00:57:13] I'm not dumb.

[00:57:15] Yeah.

[00:57:15] I don't know.

[00:57:16] I have a feeling it goes further than him just dismissing it.

[00:57:20] I think he'd.

[00:57:21] Oh, yeah.

[00:57:22] Maybe I'm getting confused with Randall, though.

[00:57:24] I'm like, I mean, we spent a lot of time debating what to do with Randall.

[00:57:26] We'll see.

[00:57:27] We'll see.

[00:57:28] And then one other thing.

[00:57:30] First, Herschel told Rick that he and Carol think they should leave the prison, but he

[00:57:36] says, I'll stay and fight if that's what everyone wants, which is kind of rough to hear knowing

[00:57:39] what happens to him.

[00:57:41] He's the one who has to pay for that decision to stay there.

[00:57:45] Yep.

[00:57:46] Yep.

[00:57:46] Yep.

[00:57:46] Yep.

[00:57:46] And I can picture it in my head right now.

[00:57:48] It happens.

[00:57:50] Oh, it's so rough, man.

[00:57:53] Yeah.

[00:57:53] It's rough.

[00:57:54] It's very rough.

[00:57:55] All right.

[00:57:56] Notes.

[00:57:57] Notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes.

[00:58:01] I'm looking down my notes.

[00:58:04] That's my theme tune.

[00:58:06] Notes on.

[00:58:07] Notes on.

[00:58:09] Oh, great.

[00:58:09] He bought his butler.

[00:58:10] Brought his butler is a great line.

[00:58:12] And a friend of mine a couple of years back got me some pencils with quotes from The Walking

[00:58:17] Dead on them.

[00:58:18] And I recognized all of them apart from you better watch your mouth, sunshine.

[00:58:22] And when Daryl said the line, I was like, oh, that's where it is.

[00:58:25] So I have a pencil that says you better watch your mouth, sunshine.

[00:58:29] That's a good one.

[00:58:31] I thought it was cute that Maggie called Merle out for being a dick to Carl about his dad.

[00:58:36] You know, he said like your dad's head could be on a pike.

[00:58:39] And Maggie's like, don't say that to him because he's just lost his mom.

[00:58:43] And I was like, yeah, it was a pretty fucked up thing to say to a kid.

[00:58:46] Yeah, it's fucked up thing to say to a kid.

[00:58:48] I wondered vaguely if Milton was the Ken Burns of the apocalypse.

[00:58:53] Only instead of like Ken Burns's stuff, he just has a little notebook and slightly unnerving

[00:58:58] air.

[00:59:02] Total lie when he says, I don't want your prison.

[00:59:04] Um, the end music was Warm Shadow by Fink.

[00:59:08] It was the Dactyl remix of that song.

[00:59:11] Um, there were lots of aerial shots in this episode, um, like shots from above and a lot

[00:59:16] of the stuff where the governor and Rick are talking to one another around the table was

[00:59:20] quite cool.

[00:59:21] It reminded me of like a theater performance or a cut price improv show.

[00:59:27] Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:59:28] Yeah.

[00:59:29] It's like a play.

[00:59:29] Um, and I thought it was interesting what Rick has learned about leadership of, um, he

[00:59:34] feels that people need to be scared in order to justify the things that he wants to do.

[00:59:40] You know, he says they need to be scared if he does give up Michonne.

[00:59:43] He's being like the governor-y there.

[00:59:46] Maybe it rubbed off on him.

[00:59:47] We know how we say, um, Rick takes on the characteristics of his foes that he banquished.

[00:59:51] Maybe it's a little early here, but he's trying to maneuver them into doing something by manipulating

[00:59:58] them basically.

[01:00:00] Absolutely.

[01:00:00] And I did love that in the closing shot, we got a really good look at the Hyundai.

[01:00:04] I was like, oh yeah, there it is.

[01:00:08] Um, so it's having a good season.

[01:00:09] But yeah, those were my, were my notes.

[01:00:12] I have some IMDB stuff, but I'll wait till you've done your notes.

[01:00:15] They should have had at some point someone dream that the Hyundai turned into a zombie

[01:00:21] car.

[01:00:22] The Hyundai web series.

[01:00:25] Yeah.

[01:00:26] Uh, I don't have a lot of notes.

[01:00:28] I just had the thought that it's weird to think that both these guys, Andrew Lincoln and David

[01:00:32] Morrissey are English guys.

[01:00:34] I was obsessed with this.

[01:00:36] I was like, well, you see when the camera's off or they just like, all right.

[01:00:38] Oh, all right.

[01:00:39] That's good.

[01:00:40] Good show.

[01:00:41] Oh, that's great.

[01:00:41] Good news.

[01:00:42] Good news.

[01:00:42] Like me.

[01:00:45] Would you like a cup of tea?

[01:00:47] I loved how, um, we did me and, uh, Danielle and Renee did our favorite Rick Grimes moments

[01:00:56] for that one.

[01:00:57] Yeah.

[01:00:57] You should listen to that.

[01:00:58] I think you'll dig it.

[01:00:59] And it's for the Patreon.

[01:01:01] And, uh, Renee was just going on about how much she loves Rick Grimes, you know, he's

[01:01:06] my boo and everything.

[01:01:07] And then we started talking about Andrew Lincoln and she's like, yeah, Andrew Lincoln, not

[01:01:11] so much.

[01:01:11] It's Rick Grimes.

[01:01:12] They're like, I love that.

[01:01:16] So funny.

[01:01:16] How cool is it though that he embodies a character?

[01:01:19] Yeah.

[01:01:19] It is about the character.

[01:01:21] Like there are definitely actors and stuff where I'm like, and then like they're in a

[01:01:24] role and you're like, oh, they play really well.

[01:01:27] Or reverse probably even more.

[01:01:30] So when they play despicable people, but they're nice in real life.

[01:01:34] Um, what else?

[01:01:35] Uh, I mean, I already mentioned it, but it's just, we should mention it one more time.

[01:01:39] It's impossible not to think about bad lip reading watching this.

[01:01:42] And I watched it again.

[01:01:44] La baby, da baby, da baby, da baby.

[01:01:45] La baby, da baby, da.

[01:01:46] And I will put a link in the show notes.

[01:01:48] And I, if you have somehow missed seeing this up until now, uh, please go and watch it.

[01:01:55] Only if you want to feel happy, go and watch it.

[01:01:59] You are welcome.

[01:02:00] Yes.

[01:02:01] World.

[01:02:03] So good.

[01:02:04] Um, in terms of IMDb, there's actually an interesting one.

[01:02:09] In this one.

[01:02:10] Um, the episode was originally titled Pale Horse.

[01:02:14] TV critic Kevin Skinner said, speaking of the episode name, that he didn't get it.

[01:02:20] So, arrow in the doorpost.

[01:02:21] And he wishes showrunner Glenn Mazzara had stuck with Pale Horse and had kept an original scene

[01:02:26] with Daryl finding a headless rider on a living horse, which tied into the episode title.

[01:02:32] Well, I have no idea what that means.

[01:02:35] Yeah.

[01:02:36] I'm like, what?

[01:02:36] Why would there be a headless rider?

[01:02:38] I was like, but if the horse is alive, why is it pale?

[01:02:41] Yeah.

[01:02:42] I mean, there's that on a pale horse.

[01:02:45] Yeah.

[01:02:46] Well, I know that's a book that Pierce Anthony wrote about the character of death, I think.

[01:02:52] So maybe it's from a quote about death.

[01:02:55] I don't know.

[01:02:55] Yeah.

[01:02:56] I'll have to look into that.

[01:02:57] Um, two other facts.

[01:02:59] Uh, the governor's surname is revealed as Blake, which comic book readers would know already.

[01:03:04] Um, and the other, which I think is interesting is Daryl has a new crossbow in this episode,

[01:03:08] which must, I presume, have come from Clear.

[01:03:11] Clear.

[01:03:12] Oh, I didn't notice that.

[01:03:14] Is that the same one that Carol brings to France?

[01:03:18] I, je ne pas.

[01:03:19] Hmm.

[01:03:20] I wonder.

[01:03:20] I don't know.

[01:03:21] I don't know what she declared at customs, so.

[01:03:23] Wait, wait.

[01:03:24] You answer?

[01:03:26] Okay.

[01:03:26] Oh.

[01:03:27] Only on.

[01:03:27] Oh, go ahead.

[01:03:28] If I were to say, she just said at the top of the episode, I survived the channel tunnel.

[01:03:32] Who knew?

[01:03:32] Oh, yeah.

[01:03:33] Yeah, I did text you.

[01:03:34] I was like, I'm in the channel.

[01:03:35] Did you hallucinate?

[01:03:37] Uh, I'd rather not talk about it.

[01:03:42] All I can say is Codron and I are really happy now and he's settling into the UK really well.

[01:03:46] That's nice.

[01:03:47] I hope you can calm him down.

[01:03:49] Yeah.

[01:03:50] Only on The Walking Dead would someone asking to see someone's leg stump be the lighthearted

[01:03:55] moment of the episode.

[01:04:00] Only on The Walking Dead would you reject the brand new Hyundai to go back to your crappy

[01:04:09] boyfriend's crappy town to sleep in your own bed.

[01:05:07] All right, we're back.

[01:05:08] It's time for a listener moans, groans and grunts.

[01:05:19] Brad Holt says, la-bibida-bibidi, la-bibida-bibidum, and cluck.

[01:05:26] Went the chicken.

[01:05:28] Bravo.

[01:05:29] Well done.

[01:05:31] Oh, Brad.

[01:05:32] Amazing.

[01:05:32] Amazing.

[01:05:33] That's how they do it on Broadway.

[01:05:35] It really is.

[01:05:37] Stephen Fletcher says, I'll be intrigued to see if any of us can re-watch the scenes between

[01:05:43] Rick and the governor without thinking of the governor being a jerk or bad lip reading

[01:05:47] edits.

[01:05:48] Well, we couldn't do it without thinking of bad lip reading edits, but now we immediately

[01:05:52] will go to YouTube and search out the governor being a jerk, right?

[01:05:56] Because there's also, if you want to laugh, watch Darth Vader being a jerk.

[01:06:00] It's hilarious.

[01:06:02] I've never seen Karen laugh as much as when you showed her that in Scotland.

[01:06:06] I thought she was going to die.

[01:06:08] I was like...

[01:06:09] So good.

[01:06:10] It was so good.

[01:06:12] Danielle Dement-Jost says, I love this episode.

[01:06:15] Rick is in fine form and I really like the interactions among the rest waiting outside

[01:06:19] the meeting.

[01:06:20] Herschel and Milton are awesome together.

[01:06:22] And this is how we do it.

[01:06:24] On Broadway.

[01:06:28] Rodney Milton says, been listening to the re-watch and being from the UK, I dipped into

[01:06:33] British comedy daddy issues.

[01:06:35] Stars David Morrissey as a very different type of character.

[01:06:39] Hope my brain can cope with adjusting back to seeing him as the governor again.

[01:06:43] Is it good?

[01:06:44] I don't know anything about it.

[01:06:44] It's genuinely really funny.

[01:06:46] He plays...

[01:06:46] His character is just...

[01:06:48] He's got his kind of northern...

[01:06:50] Like his natural accent, but he's like a loser dad in his 60s trying to look after his

[01:06:56] daughter who's in her 20s and going to have a baby.

[01:06:58] And he's so funny in it.

[01:07:00] And Peter and I watched it.

[01:07:01] There's one episode in particular where he has to have an awkward dinner with his brother-in-law

[01:07:05] who he's scared of.

[01:07:06] And it's cracking.

[01:07:07] But it does make me laugh that that's the governor.

[01:07:10] He's such...

[01:07:10] David Morrissey is such a good actor.

[01:07:12] Like he's genuinely brilliant.

[01:07:14] Did you ever get around to watching the Lenny James show?

[01:07:18] Not yet.

[01:07:19] I need to because we...

[01:07:20] I picked up a copy in the bookshop the other day of Mr. Loverman and I was like, ah, I

[01:07:24] need to get on watching this.

[01:07:26] And I sent you a horror film or thriller with David Morrissey and Clermont's Posey in it

[01:07:33] that we should maybe cover off season.

[01:07:35] It's meant to be quite good.

[01:07:37] Cool.

[01:07:37] Um, Becky Anderson says, I really liked this episode.

[01:07:41] Mostly the last bit.

[01:07:42] Rick was great during the conversation with the governor.

[01:07:44] He even got...

[01:07:45] He got a couple of great one-liners in.

[01:07:48] Ugh, Andrea.

[01:07:49] Annoying as ever.

[01:07:50] My favorite part was the conversation Rick and Herschel had about Michonne.

[01:07:54] Dang right she's earned her place.

[01:07:55] We're going to war.

[01:07:57] Let's go!

[01:07:58] Let's go!

[01:07:59] Yes!

[01:07:59] Becky's picked her side.

[01:08:02] I'm still on the fence.

[01:08:03] I'm deciding.

[01:08:05] Jennifer McGinley says, excellent episode.

[01:08:07] Quality Walking Dead.

[01:08:09] Daryl and Martina's pissing contest.

[01:08:11] Hilarious.

[01:08:11] And the one-liners.

[01:08:13] At least buy me a drink first.

[01:08:14] You're the town drunk who knocked over my fence and I ripped up my yard.

[01:08:18] And my favorite one-liner in the whole series, I brought whiskey.

[01:08:23] I don't know why the latter makes me LOL so much.

[01:08:26] Just a stupid look on the governor's face, the way he delivers the line.

[01:08:29] Like he's expecting Rick to jump up and go, yay, party time.

[01:08:34] Well done to every single person involved in this episode.

[01:08:37] Walking Dead classic.

[01:08:38] Well, that seems like his favorite of hers.

[01:08:40] That's cool.

[01:08:40] I love it.

[01:08:41] He goes, I brought whiskey!

[01:08:43] And everyone's like, no one gives a shit, mate.

[01:08:47] That's why I decided even though it's only 1 p.m. here, I would go ahead and have a glass of whiskey myself.

[01:08:53] I'd water.

[01:08:54] Wasn't as exciting.

[01:08:56] Randy Stevenson says,

[01:09:20] It's really evocative.

[01:09:24] Yeah.

[01:09:25] Yeah.

[01:09:25] It is good.

[01:09:26] But I, this message made me go back and look.

[01:09:30] There's this great resource called tunefind.com.

[01:09:34] Love tunefind.

[01:09:35] Yeah.

[01:09:36] And you can find, I don't know if it's every single TV show, but it seems like it.

[01:09:40] It's a fair few.

[01:09:40] Yeah.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:42] You find, go to any episode and it'll tell you what songs are in that episode.

[01:09:47] And then there's even links to like Spotify and Apple music.

[01:09:49] And so that made me, I went back and looked at like season one of walking dead.

[01:09:54] There's split foot and space junk in the pilot.

[01:09:58] There's I'm a man by black strobe in episode two.

[01:10:01] Tomorrow is a long time by Bob Dylan in episode five, some Johnny cash in there.

[01:10:06] So I think we led you wrong Randy.

[01:10:10] Cause I mean, I don't know if that's even what you're saying, but there seemed, there was a lot of pop music all throughout walking dead, I guess.

[01:10:17] But this one did stand out to me somehow as being more like what they ended up doing later.

[01:10:23] Cause they, I think they did.

[01:10:24] I don't know how, but they started using it.

[01:10:27] Maybe they just had it more over the end credits early on and now they put it in the episode more.

[01:10:34] I don't know.

[01:10:34] Yeah.

[01:10:36] Cause it did start to feel more like, especially when Gimple came along, he'd find these great songs and put them in there and I'd put them in my playlist.

[01:10:45] You know, I think he'd make songs popular.

[01:10:48] Like easy street.

[01:10:50] I actually like easy street more than most people, but there's a song called Denise.

[01:10:54] No, wait, no scratch that.

[01:10:56] Nevermind.

[01:10:57] He didn't put that in.

[01:10:57] There's this song that, um, when Eugene went over to the savior side as a trader for a while there and they had this song, there's this one thing.

[01:11:09] It's called calm or no, there's this one word it's called comfort.

[01:11:14] Do do do do do do.

[01:11:15] And it's by a band called Paul Simon or no, the song is called Paul Simon for some reason.

[01:11:19] But anyway, um, I have that in my playlist.

[01:11:22] There's just a few like that, but I keep listening to you after.

[01:11:25] I remember there's a really good montage of Dwight eating a sandwich.

[01:11:28] Was it a town called malice or something that they played when he was eating his sandwich?

[01:11:33] Um, and there's one where he's singing a song to Stephanie.

[01:11:38] Have you heard what they say?

[01:11:41] On the news today.

[01:11:43] I love that.

[01:11:44] I don't know why that gets me so much.

[01:11:46] Cause I didn't like, I didn't like Eugene so much at first.

[01:11:49] He was just so stilted and stood out, but there's some moments with later Eugene that really got to me.

[01:11:58] I can't wait till we get back there.

[01:12:00] It's so good.

[01:12:01] It's so good.

[01:12:02] It's going to bother me what the hell that song is.

[01:12:05] Um, that plays when Dwight makes a sandwich, but I'll find it.

[01:12:10] I'll find it.

[01:12:10] I remember that sequence, the whole sandwich thing, the benefits of being a savior.

[01:12:15] Yeah.

[01:12:16] And he had really made me want a sandwich.

[01:12:17] I was like, Oh, I want to eat that.

[01:12:19] I have a really good sandwich waiting for me in the fridge right now.

[01:12:23] Ooh, what is it?

[01:12:24] Tell me about it.

[01:12:24] It's a chicken salad sandwich.

[01:12:26] I got it at this deli.

[01:12:29] Uh, and it's got just this really good fluffy wheat bread.

[01:12:34] It looks so good.

[01:12:35] I feel like North America spoiled me for sandwiches.

[01:12:38] Yeah.

[01:12:39] It's a town called Malice.

[01:12:40] I was right.

[01:12:40] There you go.

[01:12:41] It was the jam.

[01:12:43] Sidebar.

[01:12:46] All right.

[01:12:46] Kesha Rawling says, this is such an interesting episode because of the governor's proposed

[01:12:50] trade turnover, Michonne, and I won't attack the prison.

[01:12:55] In the prior episode, clear, according to showrunner Gimple, we see Rick, Michonne, and

[01:12:59] Carl written as a family.

[01:13:00] In clear, we see Rick's growing physical attraction to Michonne in the beginning of Carl's

[01:13:05] bond to Michonne.

[01:13:06] The governor is unaware of Michonne's growing importance to Rick and the prison group.

[01:13:11] Of course, we know Rick ultimately decides not to turn Michonne over to the governor.

[01:13:16] However, is it possible that Rick considered turning Michonne over, not just to keep his

[01:13:20] group shape safe, but also because he didn't want to deal with his growing feelings for her

[01:13:25] and guilt over having these feelings so quickly after Lori's death?

[01:13:32] Maybe.

[01:13:33] I mean, my sense at this point is Rick is feeling connected to Michonne and realizing that she's

[01:13:41] a good person and that she's destined to be one of them, if not one of them already.

[01:13:50] But I, and I also have said, I feel like there's heat between them, but I just don't know if

[01:13:55] he's like full on having feelings for her yet.

[01:13:59] I don't know if I would say that, but.

[01:14:01] I don't know if Rick even knows like 10 years.

[01:14:03] Sometimes I'm like.

[01:14:04] Yeah.

[01:14:05] Yeah.

[01:14:05] I mean, no, a lot of us don't.

[01:14:07] We don't.

[01:14:08] Yeah.

[01:14:08] Realize exactly.

[01:14:10] The person was there the whole time.

[01:14:12] Yeah, exactly.

[01:14:13] Yeah.

[01:14:13] Right under he knows.

[01:14:15] Maybe.

[01:14:16] Shanna Shanna says, the use of light in this episode tells its own story.

[01:14:20] At times, Rick is backlit.

[01:14:22] At other times, he stands in the shadows and the governor is in the light.

[01:14:25] This causes us to question who's the hero and who the villain is in this story.

[01:14:30] Of note, as Rick and the governor drink whiskey, Rick's right eye and right side of his face

[01:14:34] is consistently hidden by shadow.

[01:14:36] And of course, the governor's eyes behind his eye patch for most of the episode.

[01:14:40] Just a few episodes back, Merle and Herschel discussed Matthew 5, 29, 30.

[01:14:45] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee, which can be interpreted

[01:14:50] as referring to the temptation of sin.

[01:14:53] Great writing and storytelling.

[01:14:55] Nice.

[01:14:55] Also, Andrea told me about your baby.

[01:14:57] As the young people would say, the governor ate with that comment.

[01:15:01] Knife straight to the heart.

[01:15:03] Cheers to the rewatch.

[01:15:05] Fun to go back and see Daryl in the early days after just wrapping up Daryl Dixon, the

[01:15:09] Book of Carol.

[01:15:10] P.S.

[01:15:11] How I cheer myself up?

[01:15:12] Walking Dead rewatch.

[01:15:14] Aww.

[01:15:15] I just realized when you're talking about the table, another thing that some viewers

[01:15:20] were wondering about this episode was whether or not Rick would lose a hand.

[01:15:24] Oh, yeah.

[01:15:25] Because that's what the governor does to Rick in the comics.

[01:15:28] So I remember going into this episode, a lot of people were like, oh.

[01:15:31] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:32] Yeah.

[01:15:34] Also, I want to go back to Kesha's message for a second where she proposes that maybe

[01:15:41] Rick has growing physical attraction to Michonne and that's part of the reason why.

[01:15:45] Um, I realized what I, the way I handled that might've sounded like, oh, no, no, no.

[01:15:50] What?

[01:15:51] I hope it came across that.

[01:15:52] That's just what I think that he isn't quite there yet, but I don't know.

[01:15:55] You could be totally right.

[01:15:56] So I don't want to be like, come off like a dismissive jerk.

[01:16:00] There is a famous meme.

[01:16:02] And I can't remember if it's this episode or not, that people have been reevaluating

[01:16:05] where it looks like Rick is checking out Michonne's ass.

[01:16:08] Yeah.

[01:16:08] I think it might be from Claire.

[01:16:09] So.

[01:16:10] Yeah.

[01:16:10] I mean, I do.

[01:16:11] I do.

[01:16:12] Especially knowing where, what happens.

[01:16:14] I definitely feel heat between them.

[01:16:17] But my interpretation is just that the writers saw how much onscreen chemistry they had.

[01:16:22] So then started writing them as that later on.

[01:16:25] And Andrew Lincoln's mom wanted them to be together.

[01:16:28] Is that right?

[01:16:29] Yeah.

[01:16:30] Apparently she keeps, I remember in interviews that my mom keeps asking me and I'm like,

[01:16:34] oh, that's cute.

[01:16:37] All right.

[01:16:37] We got a couple of calls.

[01:16:38] Here's Steve Brown.

[01:16:40] Yay.

[01:16:41] Hello, the cast of us.

[01:16:42] This is Steve.

[01:16:42] And this is going to be for, what is it?

[01:16:45] Arrow on the doorpost.

[01:16:46] Man, it's been so long.

[01:16:47] I almost forgot where we were at.

[01:16:48] They just finished a run, right?

[01:16:49] Oh yeah.

[01:16:49] Yeah.

[01:16:49] We just had clear.

[01:16:50] So we're, yeah, we're coming back from a run.

[01:16:52] Maybe some time has passed because Herschel's driving.

[01:16:54] Oh, I forgot this episode.

[01:16:55] That's right.

[01:16:56] Rick is meeting with the governor.

[01:16:58] Of course, Rick doesn't take off his gun, but of course the governor keeps his hands below

[01:17:02] the table, which you're not supposed to do.

[01:17:04] And there's a gun.

[01:17:05] Oh, Merle talking about heads on podcast.

[01:17:07] But yeah, don't talk to Carl like that.

[01:17:10] Come on.

[01:17:11] I thought you were a cop, not a lawyer.

[01:17:12] Great line from the governor, Darren, to Rick as they're talking.

[01:17:16] This conversation.

[01:17:17] Wow.

[01:17:18] Oh, so Andrea told the governor that Judith may not be Rick's.

[01:17:22] That's interesting.

[01:17:23] Oh, Daryl.

[01:17:24] One arrow goes through one walker into the neck of another one.

[01:17:27] And you throw the knife at the other one's head.

[01:17:30] Milton wants to see Herschel's leg.

[01:17:32] I just met you.

[01:17:35] Buy me a drink first.

[01:17:36] Oh, and Beth is the one who stops the fight.

[01:17:39] I mean, Glenn and Merle.

[01:17:41] I don't know who's going to win that fight, but Glenn.

[01:17:43] Ooh.

[01:17:45] I forgot Beth shot.

[01:17:47] And I'm like, I don't know if it's a great idea to shoot a gun in an enclosed place like that.

[01:17:52] With a newborn.

[01:17:53] Yeah.

[01:17:55] Oh, God.

[01:17:57] I don't know, man.

[01:17:58] What does the governor know about what they brought back from Clear?

[01:18:01] Oh, no, Rick.

[01:18:02] He doesn't want the prison.

[01:18:03] He wants Michonne.

[01:18:05] Man, I forgot how good Lauren Cohan and Steven Yeun were together.

[01:18:10] Gosh, Maggie and Glenn.

[01:18:13] Glenn, I can't do this.

[01:18:15] And they show all those walkers on the fences.

[01:18:17] Oh, but now they're sneaking into the whatever this is, the back of a truck.

[01:18:21] And now the governor gives him two days, and now we're all back home,

[01:18:25] and the governor's going to plan to ambush the prison?

[01:18:28] Oh, no, he's going to ambush them in two days when they meet together,

[01:18:33] and he's going to get Michonne for himself.

[01:18:35] Of course, Andrew has no idea what the governor's going to do, kill them all.

[01:18:41] Oh, and Rick's going to lie to the rest of them about what the governor wants, though.

[01:18:46] Unless, of course, he's just reading between the lines,

[01:18:47] and he knows what the governor really plans to do.

[01:18:49] And I really, I mean, I remember, I know how it ends up,

[01:18:52] but I don't know how they get there at the end.

[01:18:54] So I'm excited for the rest of this rewatch.

[01:18:56] Glad we're back.

[01:18:57] Thank you so much for doing this rewatch.

[01:18:59] I'm having so much fun with it.

[01:19:01] Yay.

[01:19:02] Yeah, I'm like you.

[01:19:03] I don't remember the details, so that keeps it fun.

[01:19:06] Oh, I'm really glad.

[01:19:08] And we got one more call from Renee.

[01:19:11] Yay!

[01:19:12] Hi, guys.

[01:19:13] This is Renee calling in.

[01:19:14] And I am so happy that we're back together again.

[01:19:17] I'm so happy that we started the rewatch.

[01:19:20] I did not call in about the Daryl show because I didn't want to be a negative Nancy.

[01:19:27] I was wondering.

[01:19:29] I was not feeling the Daryl show.

[01:19:30] It was not my cup of tea.

[01:19:32] I don't like those folks in France.

[01:19:35] I don't care about any of those folks in France and Paris.

[01:19:37] I can care less about them.

[01:19:39] I want Daryl and Carol to be back with Rick and Michonne and the rest of the game.

[01:19:44] And I will be happy with that.

[01:19:46] Okay.

[01:19:47] So let me start with this episode here.

[01:19:50] My boo was looking mighty fine in those jeans.

[01:19:53] I love his swag so much.

[01:19:56] His swag is top tier.

[01:19:58] And his head tilt and the gruffiness to his voice, it makes me feel all tingly inside.

[01:20:04] He is the epitome of a Southern man to me.

[01:20:08] Okay?

[01:20:09] Rick Grimes.

[01:20:10] I mean, this is the episode that I fell in love with Rick Grimes.

[01:20:14] He is so sexy.

[01:20:16] Like, when I say sexy, capital S, capital E, capital X, capital Y, Y, Y.

[01:20:24] Okay.

[01:20:25] Enough about Rick.

[01:20:26] Okay.

[01:20:26] Herschel.

[01:20:27] I love Herschel.

[01:20:28] He's super cute.

[01:20:29] And Herschel got some gangster in him as well.

[01:20:32] Herschel had that gun taped to his leg.

[01:20:34] I was like, okay, Herschel, I see you and Daryl.

[01:20:37] Daryl's looking cleaner than usual.

[01:20:39] I wish they would have kept his hair shorter because his longer hair always looks so unkempt.

[01:20:45] Daryl looks so dirty and dusty to me.

[01:20:48] I don't like that.

[01:20:49] Daryl looked much better in the earlier episodes.

[01:20:52] I don't like the new Daryl.

[01:20:54] Okay.

[01:20:54] And the governor, he is so slimy telling Rick to put down his gun knowing the whole time that he had his gun take to the table.

[01:21:03] But, of course, Rick Grimes is not crazy.

[01:21:05] He is not the one to be played with.

[01:21:07] He's not the one, two, three, nor the four.

[01:21:11] And Andrea, girl, sit your ass down somewhere.

[01:21:14] She gets on my nerves.

[01:21:17] And that hip-hop, I mean, girl, what was the point of her telling the governor that Ruth Judith is Shane's baby?

[01:21:25] She talked too damn much.

[01:21:27] Like, I don't understand.

[01:21:28] She just went over there and told the governor everything.

[01:21:30] They just had pillow talk.

[01:21:31] Like, girl, I mean.

[01:21:33] And then when Herschel told her that, you know, you can come back home, your family, she still chose to get in the car with the governor.

[01:21:41] I do not understand that.

[01:21:43] I do not.

[01:21:44] But she is, women like her irks my soul.

[01:21:49] When Michonne said that she chose a warm bed and a man over her friends, that is the truth.

[01:21:55] And I cannot wait until she dies.

[01:21:58] And Merle, Merle is an asshole.

[01:22:00] He is so crass, I cannot wait till he die as well.

[01:22:04] Fair.

[01:22:05] And Rick, I mean, I'm sorry, Glenn and Maggie, that was so cute.

[01:22:10] I'm so glad that he finally apologized to her.

[01:22:13] And I did not realize that Glenn and Maggie, the sex scene between them was like super hot, super, super, super hot.

[01:22:21] It was sizzling.

[01:22:23] And when Rick and Michonne had sex like that on The Ones Who Live, it was a big hoopla.

[01:22:30] And I don't understand that because the chemistry that Glenn and Michonne had, Glenn, I'm sorry, Glenn and Maggie has, Rick and Michonne has that as well.

[01:22:42] And Glenn and Maggie is an interracial couple.

[01:22:45] So I don't see the problem with Rick and Michonne because people are always saying that Rick, they like Rick, Rick.

[01:22:53] They feel like that Rick and Andrea would have made a better couple than him and Michonne.

[01:22:58] The hell?

[01:22:58] I mean, come on now.

[01:23:00] No.

[01:23:00] Andrea is clueless.

[01:23:02] And then Unjusticeary, like, girl, Unjusticeary was on there for maybe a couple of episodes.

[01:23:09] And people say that they feel like Rick would have made a better, that Rick and Unjusticeary would have made a better couple than him and Michonne.

[01:23:19] No way in the hell.

[01:23:21] I think that people have a problem with Rick and Michonne because that Michonne is, she's black and she's so dark and she has her features.

[01:23:31] She's African and she has, her features are very prominent.

[01:23:36] And of course, on The Walking Dead, she's not as put together as she is in real life.

[01:23:42] So they can't get past that.

[01:23:46] But Danai is a beautiful woman.

[01:23:48] She's gorgeous.

[01:23:49] And even on The Walking Dead, when they show her when she's looking soft, because sometimes she does have, she's mugging and, you know, she does have a look where she kind of looks ill.

[01:23:57] But, you know, when they show her, you know, her softest side, she's a beautiful woman.

[01:24:01] You can tell that she's a really pretty woman.

[01:24:03] And to me, her and Rick go together like an Oreo, the best cookie in the world.

[01:24:08] I always say that they look like an Oreo to me.

[01:24:10] And I think that they're super, super cute.

[01:24:12] And it's like the governor telling Rick, do you, I need for you to give Michonne up one woman.

[01:24:21] Is she worth it?

[01:24:22] All those lives at your prison, sir.

[01:24:24] Uh-huh.

[01:24:25] That's his future wife.

[01:24:26] That's his baby mama.

[01:24:28] Yes, she is.

[01:24:30] She's definitely that.

[01:24:31] So, yeah.

[01:24:33] So, let me just stop talking, because that's what I always seem to do, go off on a tangent.

[01:24:37] And I'm just so happy that we're back together again.

[01:24:39] So, of course, I'm going to talk, talk, talk, talk.

[01:24:42] Jason's probably going to edit this out.

[01:24:43] But I'm so happy to be back with you guys.

[01:24:45] I miss you guys so much.

[01:24:47] And this, The Walking Dead is my comfort show.

[01:24:49] And I'm just so happy.

[01:24:51] I'm so ecstatic.

[01:24:52] I'm telling you guys.

[01:24:53] All right.

[01:24:53] Talk to you guys later.

[01:24:54] Love you guys.

[01:24:55] Peace and love.

[01:24:57] Bye.

[01:24:58] Bye.

[01:25:02] Really good to be back.

[01:25:03] Yeah, good to hear from you.

[01:25:04] Oh, Renee.

[01:25:05] I love it.

[01:25:05] Yeah, I'm glad you're, yeah, it's good to hear from you.

[01:25:07] And I was wondering why.

[01:25:09] I figured she must just not be digging the Daryl show.

[01:25:13] Yeah.

[01:25:13] We still not heard from Gemma in ages.

[01:25:16] Yeah.

[01:25:17] What are you doing, Gemma?

[01:25:17] She's, we need to hear from you.

[01:25:20] Yeah.

[01:25:21] Call in if you're listening.

[01:25:22] Gemma, are you alive out there?

[01:25:25] She loves Rick too.

[01:25:26] All right.

[01:25:26] So, we had some messages that weren't related to this episode.

[01:25:30] Uh, so I thought we'd read those.

[01:25:33] First one's from Laura Linton, who says, I really appreciate your last podcast titled

[01:25:38] How We Cheer Ourselves Up.

[01:25:39] I've definitely been in a post-election depression, just trying to figure out the state of our world.

[01:25:45] Luckily, I have your podcasts.

[01:25:46] Love hearing your suggestions.

[01:25:48] And I'm currently watching Dog House, which is the show that Karen suggested people watch.

[01:25:54] Crying happy tears today.

[01:25:56] Thank you all for your humor, kind hearts, and amazing podcasts.

[01:25:59] Well, I'm glad that you enjoyed that, Laura.

[01:26:02] It was great to podcast with Karen and Wendy.

[01:26:05] I'm so excited to catch up on that one.

[01:26:08] Yeah.

[01:26:09] Andrea Barkas says, hi, Jason and Lucy.

[01:26:11] I know you were watching a movie this week.

[01:26:13] We did not.

[01:26:15] Well, we, she's talking about what we do in the shadows.

[01:26:19] Right.

[01:26:19] Okay.

[01:26:20] Sorry, Andrea.

[01:26:21] Andrea says, I will try to watch it tonight if I can.

[01:26:24] I'm just writing in to thank you for what you said in regards to the election.

[01:26:27] I'm not going to go on a rant or anything.

[01:26:29] I just wanted to say as a woman and also as someone who has a sister who is gay, it was so heartbreaking.

[01:26:34] But your words and knowing there are good people like you lets me continue to have hope.

[01:26:38] Love you guys.

[01:26:38] I'm looking forward to starting the rewatch.

[01:26:41] Oh, Andrea.

[01:26:42] Lots of love back to you.

[01:26:43] Yep.

[01:26:44] Linda Elise says, hi again, Jason and Lucy.

[01:26:48] Lovely to hear my long message read in the latest podcast.

[01:26:51] Makes this little newbie feel welcome to the fold.

[01:26:54] Linda's the one who just got into The Walking Dead fairly recently.

[01:26:58] Yes, I remember.

[01:27:00] So just one, just a quick one regarding your response.

[01:27:03] Yes, I hope to feel differently about season nine onwards when I get into a rewatch.

[01:27:08] She didn't like the later seasons.

[01:27:09] The tonal shift won't be such a shock and I'm hoping I'll be able to enjoy it for what it is rather than what I expect it to be.

[01:27:16] With many of you truly loving a lot of what was created in those final years, I'm curious to see if I can feel the same way.

[01:27:22] Fingers crossed.

[01:27:23] Yeah, we'll see.

[01:27:24] We'll see.

[01:27:25] I hope so, but we'll see.

[01:27:26] I'll share my thoughts when I get there.

[01:27:27] In the meantime, I look forward to engaging more with current content.

[01:27:31] Speak soon.

[01:27:32] Linda, why do I always get the ones where people leave their zombie sound?

[01:27:35] Linda, oh, and because I forgot last time.

[01:27:38] Thanks, Linda.

[01:27:41] Amazing, Linda.

[01:27:43] Eileen, or Aileen?

[01:27:45] Eileen?

[01:27:45] Eileen.

[01:27:46] Gross.

[01:27:47] Eileen is Jenny's friend who does cross-stitching.

[01:27:52] Like Jenny goes to a cross-stitching retreat once a year.

[01:27:57] A woman who said, hey, I listened, or it came out that, you know, oh, what does your husband do?

[01:28:03] Oh, he's a podcaster.

[01:28:04] What is he podcast on?

[01:28:05] The Walking Dead.

[01:28:05] Oh, I listen to a Walking Dead podcast.

[01:28:08] Is he the good one or the bad one?

[01:28:11] It's Chris.

[01:28:12] No.

[01:28:12] It's Chris.

[01:28:13] It's Chris.

[01:28:14] It's Chris.

[01:28:14] Eileen Cross says, hello, Jason and Lucy.

[01:28:17] You have given me one of my life's dreams.

[01:28:19] You told me not to get bit on your last podcast.

[01:28:21] I screamed and almost jumped out of bed, and my husband thought I was having a stroke.

[01:28:25] We both calm down and want to thank you so much.

[01:28:28] Oh, Eileen, that's quite a visual.

[01:28:30] I know that Jenny was instrumental in getting this to happen.

[01:28:33] I adore all things zombies.

[01:28:35] It started when I was in college in 1971 when I saw Night of the Living Dead during a Halloween movie fest.

[01:28:41] I was traumatized for days, actually months.

[01:28:44] I love sci-fi, cli-fi, and apocalyptic fiction, probably now to become non-fiction and to be classified as the historical documents of our time.

[01:28:52] Hang in there.

[01:28:53] I understand your concern for your children's future, given that environmental concerns will not be addressed for the next four years and probably for many more years to come.

[01:29:02] I admire you both.

[01:29:04] I listen to your podcast before I see the episodes.

[01:29:06] At my age, I need to try to keep my anxiety down to manageable levels, so knowing who dies and how they die helps me enjoy the episodes.

[01:29:13] I do that too.

[01:29:16] Don't get bit, Jason and Lucy.

[01:29:18] P.S. At 72 years old, I would probably be the first to die after an apocalypse, but nevertheless, I will try to not get bit.

[01:29:26] Yay!

[01:29:27] Yeah, Karen does that too.

[01:29:29] She reads spoilers so she can not have to worry about who's going to die.

[01:29:33] I don't do it all the time.

[01:29:35] I tried not to, and I definitely didn't for The Ones Who Live and Daryl Dixon, but other times I do do it, especially around about-

[01:29:42] When you're not podcasting on it.

[01:29:44] Yeah, when I'm not podcasting, I will.

[01:29:45] I will.

[01:29:46] It kills me.

[01:29:48] Good to hear from you, Eileen.

[01:29:49] Thanks for writing in.

[01:29:51] Vicky in Wiltshire says,

[01:29:53] Hi, Lucy and Jason.

[01:29:54] I just wanted to share a couple thoughts following the finale of Daryl Dixon Season 2.

[01:29:59] I know I missed the feedback show, but we get the latest episodes in the UK about a week after everyone else, and I thought I'd send this anyway.

[01:30:05] When Daryl told Codron he didn't kill his brother, it definitely seemed to me that Codron was thinking,

[01:30:10] Mon Dieu, I let the woman who was responsible get away while I went on a murderous rampage.

[01:30:15] I didn't need to kill all those people or hunt Daryl all this time.

[01:30:18] I was wrong.

[01:30:19] How crazy was all that stuff I did?

[01:30:22] And hopefully he was regretting his actions.

[01:30:25] Yeah.

[01:30:25] You know, I just forgot the details.

[01:30:27] So I just couldn't remember what Codron did because he thought Daryl was the one who killed his brother.

[01:30:33] So did he kill some people because of that?

[01:30:35] Yeah.

[01:30:36] Okay.

[01:30:36] Maybe that's what it was.

[01:30:37] I think so.

[01:30:37] I think in pursuit of Daryl, he definitely did.

[01:30:40] Yeah.

[01:30:40] Okay.

[01:30:41] Okay.

[01:30:41] Well, that makes sense.

[01:30:42] Thanks, Vicky.

[01:30:43] She goes on.

[01:30:43] I'm glad to hear there will be some scenes set in England next season as I'm in the southwest of England, even if it's not really filmed here.

[01:30:50] Stephen Merchant joining the cast has made a lot more sense to me since hearing this.

[01:30:54] I know.

[01:30:54] Me too.

[01:30:55] If you've never seen it before, I'd highly recommend Stephen Merchant's BBC series, The Outlaws.

[01:31:00] It's brilliant and so funny.

[01:31:01] Never heard of it.

[01:31:02] I haven't either.

[01:31:03] I should check that out.

[01:31:04] Yeah.

[01:31:04] I love him.

[01:31:05] I'd like to finish by saying thank you for your podcast.

[01:31:07] I'm a long, long, long time listener of Chris and Jason on the Talking Dead podcast and started listening to your show when they mentioned the rewatch of The Walking Dead.

[01:31:15] Oh, no way.

[01:31:15] I've gotten so much.

[01:31:16] That's cool.

[01:31:17] If you listen to it, you must have heard us before because we did yearly crossovers with them after every season.

[01:31:27] I wonder if you heard those, Vicky.

[01:31:29] Oh, maybe.

[01:31:30] She says, I've gotten so much out of rewatching The Walking Dead with you both, although I have to say I normally find myself agreeing with Jason.

[01:31:37] No, I'm just kidding.

[01:31:37] She said Lucy.

[01:31:38] I knew I liked Vicky.

[01:31:40] I knew I could just tell.

[01:31:41] I was like, Vicky, you seem like a really good egg.

[01:31:43] And I know I'm hungry.

[01:31:43] We agree most of the time.

[01:31:45] You and I agree.

[01:31:45] Yeah, no, we agree most of the time.

[01:31:46] Looking forward to carrying on with the rewatch.

[01:31:48] Yay, Vicky.

[01:31:49] Nice.

[01:31:55] All right.

[01:31:55] That is our show, episode 613.

[01:31:57] Thanks for listening, everybody.

[01:31:59] It's good to be back.

[01:32:00] Maybe we'll feel more...

[01:32:01] Well, we won't feel more settled in next week because I'm going on a Disney cruise, leaving tonight.

[01:32:06] You're leaving tonight?

[01:32:08] Yeah, we're flying out.

[01:32:10] There's rough weather here, so we're hoping the flight doesn't delay.

[01:32:14] Where do you cruise from?

[01:32:15] Is it Florida?

[01:32:16] Yeah.

[01:32:17] Wow.

[01:32:17] Wow.

[01:32:17] I've never been on a Disney cruise before, but we figured we'd better do it while our

[01:32:22] kids are young.

[01:32:23] So we're all excited.

[01:32:25] Oh, that's good.

[01:32:26] That's really good.

[01:32:27] Yeah.

[01:32:28] But so the next episode is going to be The Walking Dead Season 3, Episode 14, Prey, with

[01:32:33] Lucy and special guest Peter.

[01:32:36] Yay!

[01:32:37] We will not be on a Disney cruise.

[01:32:39] We'll be in our house.

[01:32:41] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact

[01:32:45] information at podcastica.com.

[01:32:47] And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts.

[01:32:50] Like, did I mention this already?

[01:32:52] Me and Rima and Richard started on the second five episodes of Cobra Kai.

[01:32:58] They split the last season.

[01:33:00] Oh, did they split it?

[01:33:01] In three parts.

[01:33:02] And so the second five came out.

[01:33:05] And we're loving it.

[01:33:07] And man, it's the last season.

[01:33:09] Yeah.

[01:33:09] They're really...

[01:33:10] They're all in Spain right now, actually.

[01:33:13] Are you kidding?

[01:33:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:33:14] Everyone's filming in fucking Spain.

[01:33:16] Oh my God.

[01:33:17] There's a big competition there.

[01:33:18] That's really funny.

[01:33:19] So that's Cobra Kai Cast, which you can find at podcastica.com.

[01:33:22] This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Gloria Hernan, who pledged their support

[01:33:26] at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi.

[01:33:29] So thank you to Gloria with your fabulous New England accent.

[01:33:32] We love Gloria.

[01:33:34] Yeah.

[01:33:34] We love her.

[01:33:36] What's something we're doing?

[01:33:38] Oh, we just did a Zed Head.

[01:33:40] I just did a Zed Head show, you know, our Patreon exclusive podcast with Becky Anderson

[01:33:47] and Penny on our favorite 90s shows of all time.

[01:33:51] I watched a documentary at the weekend about 90s UK boy bands, and I'm in a very 90s nostalgic

[01:33:57] mood now.

[01:33:58] So I'm going to check that out.

[01:34:01] Yeah, you've got some catching up to do.

[01:34:02] I do.

[01:34:03] I really do.

[01:34:04] Do you know this working full-time malarkey?

[01:34:05] I don't recommend it.

[01:34:07] How's the bookshop?

[01:34:08] It's good.

[01:34:09] It's tiring.

[01:34:09] Like, I do like 10 kilometers a day just walking around with piles of books, but I get

[01:34:14] to recommend books to a lot of people.

[01:34:16] And use my staff discount, which is nice.

[01:34:19] But no, it's genuinely really nice.

[01:34:20] It's nice to talk to people.

[01:34:22] But yeah, physically, I'm like, fuck you now.

[01:34:25] Yeah, when you're not used to doing a real job.

[01:34:28] And everyone I work with is like 20 and they're like, back pain?

[01:34:30] I don't know her.

[01:34:32] Whereas I'm like, oh no, oh my God, I'm going to die.

[01:34:35] They're like, yeah, no, I don't get back pain.

[01:34:37] I'm like, all right, cool.

[01:34:38] They're all lovely, but I do feel like the old granny.

[01:34:42] All right, that is our show.

[01:34:44] Thanks for listening.

[01:34:44] Don't get bit, Casher Rawlings.

[01:34:48] Cluck went the chicken.

[01:34:52] And that's how they do it on Broadway.

[01:34:56] Heh heh heh.