614: "Prey" (TWD S3E14 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm?

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Ah!

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The Cast of Us!

[00:00:14] Come back with me.

[00:00:20] They all need you.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_06]: That's your home now!

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Your people.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Your town.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_06]: You can't just leave them all behind.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Please, Andy.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Come home.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Suit yourself.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Hey Zedheads, welcome to our podcast.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm Lucy.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Peter.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_07]: And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 614.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, Season 3, Episode 14, Prey.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome back to the podcast, Peter.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this a fall from grace?

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Going from clear to prey?

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I have thoughts about this.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Jason no longer with us.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was a beautiful funeral for him though.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_07]: It really was.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_07]: We sent him off to sea on a Disney cruise.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_07]: It's what he would have wanted.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you feel a bit like we've been left in charge of the house?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_07]: I think...

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a cupboard.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there are many, many rooms in the mansion that Jason has vacated.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_07]: We're throwing a tiny party.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Not a big one, just a tiny one, having some friends over.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's lovely to have you here.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_07]: I asked Jason if we could have you as a co-host because our schedules are nightmares at the moment

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_07]: and this is probably the first time we've sat down and had a face-to-face conversation in the last week because of work.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_07]: But also because it's always nice to get to chat with you.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_07]: The last time we podcasted together, just the two of us was on The Bear.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that a subtle plug there?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_07]: It was a subtle plug for our dated coverage of season three of The Bear.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm going to withhold from asking, you know, what you've eaten this week and what your favourite food of the last week has been.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Although, you know, if you want to go there, you can.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I think it's just important that we put it out there to listeners that if you like The Bear enough that you want to listen to a podcast about it, but not to actually watch it.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you've not got that far, then it's right there.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_07]: It's right there.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's right there.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we're sitting, it's a school night, so we don't even have whiskey.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_07]: We've got, what are you drinking?

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Hot water with ginger in it.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_07]: This is, this is...

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that the opposite of, is that the opposite of whiskey?

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just imagining Jason, he's probably on the Disney cruise with some kind of ridiculous Disney cocktail and we're like, mmm, sliced ginger in some hot water.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Although listeners, if you're looking for something to perk you up a bit over winter, it has actually helped me kick off a cold or two.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Can you tell I'm prevaricating talking about this episode?

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, I reckon you've got, you've got some gems.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, as you are the guest of honour, would you like to read us the Wikipedia plot summary for The Walking Dead season 3 episode 14, Prey?

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So, plot summary, as Lucy says via Wikipedia.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The governor prepares a torture chamber for Michonne.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry, you just read it so cheerily.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_07]: Go on, go on.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Martinez gathers Walker as to unleash against the prison. Milton exposes these plans to Andrea. She travels to the prison to warn them, but the governor hunts her down and captures her in the torture chamber.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's our show, thanks for listening. Great, wonderfully read, beautifully rendered.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like I told the story?

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I think you got the gravitas of everything that happens in this episode in one succinct summary there. What did you think of the episode overall?

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I really like when an episode is focused, which this is. I thought it had some good moments.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You said with all the earnestness that you could carry that you thought it was a good succinct summary that I delivered there.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I would say is, I think looking back and you say, right, what happened in this episode? It doesn't feel like that much happens in it.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Truly it does not.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You really can do a very succinct summary of it. I mean, even the Wikipedia summary one, which tries to give a bit of time to other things that happened.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It really could just be the governor prepares a torture chamber. Andrea finds out, she runs off, that doesn't work.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's interesting to look at from the point of view that the characters we do spend a good amount of time with are Andrea and Tyrese, who are both probably characters that don't have as good a legacy as some of the others.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_07]: I think Tyrese's legacy isn't bad per se. It's just, I think there was always frustration that he wasn't quite his comic book self and the show never really quite knew what to do with Tyrese, I think.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you, I would give some credit to The Walking Dead that it's really taking some time to invest in these characters. It's not just forgetting they're there. But maybe we come back to that when we get into our points a little bit.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I will do now.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_07]: No, you're supposed to ask me what I thought of the episode.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. What did you think of the episode? I feel like it's a positive review.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for asking, Peter. You're so organically there. Yeah, it's just a bummer. I think the minute I started watching this episode and I realised, A, that it was an Andrea-focused episode, so we don't visit the prison really at all.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_07]: And B, just remembering what happens. This episode's a bummer, man. It's so futile and it's really hard to watch when you know how it's going to end for Andrea, both in terms of this episode and the show overall. So it bummed me out in that sense. I think there are still aspects of it that are good and I'm looking forward to talking about them. Overall, it's probably one of my least favourite episodes of the rewatch so far.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And it's not all bad. I don't think it's a bad episode. There's nothing totally egregious in it. I think you're right. I think a good part of it is that it is just a bummer.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just because you know she's not going to get there and I spent so much time wanting things to be different and I found it so bleak, like looking at the torture room and being like, well, Milton and Andrea, you're going to die there in about 24 hours. So have fun looking at it.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_07]: So there is this sense of futility with it that I think is quite hard. I think the first time I saw it, I probably found it much more exciting. But I think this is one of the ways in which a rewatch isn't beneficial is when you know that something is futile, it's harder to go through those emotions again.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because I did have this distinct memory the first time I watched it. I remembered that scene where Andrea is being stalked through the abandoned factory or whatever that was.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_07]: I had completely forgotten that ever happened.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Really?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. I was like, huh?

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me tell you more then.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So listeners, that culminates in a scene where Andrea approaches a closed door. She opens it up, sees a whole bunch of zombies on the other side and then tricks the governor by hiding behind a closed door so that he's swarmed by a whole bunch of zombies.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And I do remember the first time I watched this, naive as I was, I really did think, right, that's that done.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think at that stage in The Walking Dead, that many zombies, I kind of viewed as a...

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, that still felt like an adequate threat. Yeah, it's genuinely, I think the first time you watch it, there is a genuine shock at her being grabbed at the end. You're like, holy crap, he's alive?

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, and that was exactly where I was going with that point. I think on that first watch through, it actually does do a really nice job of building up that tension and then getting you at the end and going, oh no. And you're right, without that build up, without that kind of hope that she might make it, it's more of a bummer.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_07]: But now it's like seasoned Walking Dead watchers, unless you get the full Noah or the full Glenn, you're like, nah, you're probably still alive.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know. And this is a funny thing. And that was so naive of me that you don't see a major character like that die off camera.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_07]: No, not anymore.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_07]: No.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, did we ever? I don't know. But yeah, definitely not now. Definitely if you don't see them eviscerated, then they are likely to still be alive.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Was that your first point? Did you sneak behind the closed door and open up your first point?

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but it would lead me fairly naturally to one or other of my points. But would you prefer to go first?

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_07]: No, not at all. You're the guest.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you very much.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_07]: And we did talk each other down from, instead of discussing the episode, just doing a rendition of Take That's 1994 hit All I Do Each Night Is Pray.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_07]: But we thought listeners didn't really deserve that.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I...

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They've probably...

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_07]: It's been a hard few weeks for people. They don't need to hear that.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: For Lucy's benefit. My background is now...

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you've changed your...

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was something that I was kind of already alluding to, but I'd still like to spend a bit of time on it because I think it's worth starting there with this episode.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I went back and I started looking up reviews for this episode because it's a long way... It's a long way back now. Is it 2013 something like that?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, 2013.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_07]: It's 11 years ago.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_07]: It's 11 years ago.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_07]: It comes out.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_07]: I think I caught you giggling about this because I've copied and pasted the text of a review in these notes for you.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_07]: But please do go on. Do go on.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And anyone listening to this podcast will have a very good guess at what the tone of reviews in 2013 of the episode were like.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We really hate Andrea. Andrea sucks. This is so annoying. And many of those views I'm sure won't have changed in the meantime.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But 11 years clear.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Coming back and re-watching it. Do you think there's any room for a reappraisal of Andrea? Have our feelings about her softened? Or was everybody right back in 2013?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Rhetorical or... Rhetorical or real question?

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Real question.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Good question. It's kind of one of my points as well.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Look at how we finish each other's...

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Sandwiches.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. I was thinking about this because I was thinking this is not just the end of Andrea's kind of journey in this episode.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_07]: It's the end of her time on the show.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's a bummer of a way to go out.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, this is not a good way to be written out as a character with kind of everyone hating you.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think I got as annoyed at Andrea in the re-watch as I thought I would.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think I was also softer towards Laurie than I had been in the original run, where I think my nickname for her was Slagathor, which...

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Not my finest feminist moment, so apologies for that.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_07]: What I think we're getting at is there is a review by my favourite fashion bloggers, Tom and Lorenzo, who first became famous for reviewing shows like The Walking Dead and Mad Men.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_07]: And they are quite brutal about Andrea in their review of this episode from March 2013.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_07]: And this is how it begins.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_07]: The severed heads weren't enough.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Sending people after Michonne to kill her wasn't enough.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Zombie gladiator games weren't enough.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Sexually assaulting Maggie wasn't enough.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Every single former ally telling her that he was bad news and that she should get the hell away from him or kill him wasn't enough to sway Andrea from her dreamy psychopath side.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_07]: But oh boy!

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_07]: You show Andrea a torture chair and suddenly she's ready to put a bullet through the governor's other eye.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Which she proceeds not to do because Milton is creepily bonded to him, something that everyone in the audience figured out 30 seconds after the character was introduced.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_07]: But Andrea only just figured out now after living and working with him for weeks.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Andrea then sneaks out by telling the governor's closest confidant what she plans to do and randomly stopping near strangers on the way out of town just to kind of sort of tell them that the governor's kind of sort of not that great.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, thanks, bye.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, and if you could not tell anyone what I just said or did near total strangers, that would be really awesome of you.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And they put it beautifully and I think it's such a perfect characterization of where we all were 11 years ago with this art.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the ways I've tried to rationalize for myself how frustrating Andrea can be is that the show sets up quite clearly that she's capable.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: She's smart.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's intelligent, exactly.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think maybe what's frustrating as a viewer is I think that, and I think Tom and Lorenzo hit it really well there, is she seems to have horrible judgment.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_07]: The worst.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: When Andrea makes a, when Andrea reasons something out, her reasoning will always be wrong.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Will kind of always be wrong.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_07]: And she has a stinky attitude sometimes, which doesn't help.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And horrible taste in men.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, horrible taste in men.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Only on The Walking Dead would Shane be the healthy choice.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, out of the two.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm like, you know what, Shane, he had some redeeming qualities.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_07]: The governor, oh boy.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, yeah.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I think something that was interesting about this review, because I did a deep dive while you were doing the dishes into this review.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_07]: There's a little argument in the comments.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_07]: And someone in the comments had watched The Talking Dead that week, because this is when The Talking Dead was kind of really getting quite big.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_07]: By this, I don't mean our lovely friends Chris and Jason over at The Talking Dead pod.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm talking about the Chris Hardwick helmed AMC show.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_07]: And one of the things they said was something to the effect of, didn't you watch it last night?

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Laurie, Laurie Holden, said that there were two cut scenes explaining why she went back to Woodbury and that explained more about her motivations.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_07]: And I can't help but think, and this is something that I know Jason spoke to Laurie Holden about in a panel that made it into kind of mainstream news.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_07]: I think Andrea was done dirty by the editing and the writing, particularly in this season.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think we spoke about another point, just to lean on Tom and Lorenzo, because they are great here.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They are so good.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Another point that they make in there is that Andrea doesn't steal the governor's truck.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that, but once they pointed it out, I was like, that's so fucking dumb.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Why wouldn't you steal?

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Because we know she can't have, because the governor catches up to her too quickly.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, yeah, yeah, and she's jogging.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Neither of them, he has to have had the truck.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Basic maths, if a governor is going at X speed in a truck and then Andrea is going at Y speed by foot, they will meet at the border of the prison,

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_07]: where Andrea, for some reason, does not make it out of the bushes in order to wave to Rick.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_07]: She decides to kind of linger in the bushes and go, yay, from a distance.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, she doesn't take the fucking truck.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I would say with that is, it wouldn't have been that hard to have a scene where Andrea checks the truck, sees the governor's got the keys, which would be a perfectly reasonable thing for him to do.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_07]: I wonder if there was one.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly my point is that...

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_07]: But they edit it in this way that makes her seem like an absolute numpty.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think it is frustrating that there's this hard to define thing that the show is doing that makes you really frustrated with Andrea.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's part of the reason that I mentioned the fact that they're spending time with Andrea in all of these episodes.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like the show has gone, right, that character's not working, we're not going to spend any time with it.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's investing energy in Andrea, but in this kind of weird way that makes her hard to get on board with.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_07]: There's this moment, and I think it's like my comic book sentimental side, where Andrea is standing on the edge of those woods and she's waving to Rick and Rick looks over.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm like, I feel like this is the point where it's most probable that Andrea and Rick could have their comic book story and be the love story of The Walking Dead.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_07]: And be this amazing arc and journey that brings these two people together and they have this really solid relationship.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Obviously, as all listeners know, I'm fine with that not happening because I love Rick and Michonne together.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_07]: However, the minute she is grabbed by the governor, it is to me like the killing of a complete comic legacy.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_07]: One that I think is better for the show.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think the show and Laurie Holden are better for having parted ways.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_07]: But it is still a bummer, I think.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think if I was Laurie Holden, I would probably hold quite a lot of anger about how things went down in this particular season of The Walking Dead.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, I guess if you, if you came in with the, with the comic books, knowing the arc that Andrea has in the comic books, you'd be frustrated with the TV.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Andrea, who does not, you know, does not get anywhere near as far or doesn't have the same impact.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you don't have any episodes in later seasons where people really spend time thinking about Andrea really, do you?

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_07]: No, Michonne, I think Michonne pays tribute to her. She mentions her at least a couple of times because Andrea, you know, Michonne owes the love of her life to having bumped into Andrea really.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, you know, it's, as much as anyone can owe anyone anything else. I think her crossing paths with Andrea sets her off on that path that saves her emotionally and physically more than one occasion.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I, yeah, I think there's a lot to say about Andrea in this episode.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I'm conscious that I imagine after you do the next episode, you, you, you may spend more time on, on that, but I won't get the chance to talk to you about it.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you can always, always talk to me about Andrea, Bob. I mean, don't, cause I'll get annoyed.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_07]: But yeah, it was, it was, I found it hard to watch knowing what happens at the end of this episode in the same way that I'm struggling with a lot of the Glenn and Maggie stuff.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm just like, oh, no.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose, and I don't know if this, if this relates to any of the points that you have anyway, but I suppose sort of flipping on its head a bit.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think something that the episode actually does really, really well is it actually really is very good at setting up the stakes and setting up how hard this is.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think something that it does a good job of making very plausible is, is how drained Andrea is from this really long run.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, mate.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_07]: That she's going on.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_07]: I was thinking, see, if this was me and you, and I like had to run to warn you something, and you were like, I would say more than 10 meters away.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_07]: I'd have just like, by the time I got to the gate, I'd been like, well, that's enough running for today.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Tyrese.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Just going back to my room now, or I would have thrown up from exertion.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_07]: So like, props to Andrea, like doing that long distance running, you know.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Rick looks through the scope of his rifle from the prison and sees a woman barfing in the bushes.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Just like when we tried to do Couch to 5K.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_07]: He's like, there's love of my life.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm like, bleh.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_07]: No, her long distance running is commendable.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_07]: She clearly got the memo about cardio.

[00:21:09] Yeah.

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Although she could have serpentined or gone flat quicker in the field, I feel like.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_07]: I have a point that kind of relates to what we were just talking about, which is the cold open of this episode.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Why do you think they open with this?

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I have a theory.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, I wanted to ask you about this anyway.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think it requires calling upon the powers of a comics reader.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Derek?

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Derek?

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Derek?

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_07]: He's not here.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_07]: You're going to have to put up with me.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So I need you to open a portal to the world of the comics.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And draw through some of the lore.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Go for it.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Hit me.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Is Michonne in the comic?

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Michonne's zombies are, is it her brother and her fiancé?

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_07]: It's her fiancé and his brother, I think?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And what Michonne says about them is they deserve what they got.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't human to begin with.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Michonne, reflecting upon those people in her lives, realises bad boyfriend, terrible

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship, barely human.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is what Andrea's about to realise about the governor.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_07]: I was kind of getting there with that.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_07]: So here we have divergences.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Show and comic are different.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_07]: In the comic, Michonne has two daughters, one of whom is alive and we meet at the Commonwealth.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_07]: That's the arc that Yumiko and her brother, Tomi, took on.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_07]: In the comic, the reason that it is her boyfriend and his best friend, in fact, that are her Zeds,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_07]: in the comics...

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They are gibitched.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_07]: They are gibitten.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_07]: It's her boyfriend, Mike, and his best friend, Terry.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_07]: She uses them to protect herself and then goes to look for her children.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_07]: So pitched a little bit differently.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_07]: In the show, I believe we find out later that the reason that her son, Andre, dies is because

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_07]: her husband, partner, is not keeping a proper eye out on him or something when she's out

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_07]: on a run and that's why the two of them are her pets.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_07]: I thought, personally watching this, having not refreshed my memory about that, I was like,

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_07]: it's a bit harsh, Michonne.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, there's a difference between negligence and someone dying because of negligence and

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_07]: what the governor is.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_07]: But I get the dramatic effect of saying that and her grief and things like that is, you

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_07]: know, something that the writers have gone with.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_07]: It's definitely me not saying that the loss of a child is trivialised at all.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_07]: It's really not.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_07]: It's more just the way she says it makes it sound like they are people like the governor,

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_07]: which we know canonically they're not really.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And also it's they rather than he, I guess.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_07]: So it adds layer of intrigue, but I don't know if it's particularly loyal to either the

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_07]: comic or what we later learn in the show.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really glad I asked.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting analysis.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder at this stage in season three, how concrete the show was going to be about the

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: backstory.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's an interesting point because one of my other points, which I'm kind of smooshing

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_07]: in here is that there is quite a lot of comic lore that's like nodded to or played out

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_07]: in this episode.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_07]: And it did get me thinking about what their plans for Michonne were.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_07]: So to bring it to the cold open, we have this flashback to Andrea and Michonne having

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_07]: this girls' night, which is a scene I remembered really well because I thought it was quite

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_07]: a sweet scene with Andrea.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_07]: They're eating some disgusting tinned food.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, it might be nice, actually.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_07]: We had tinned beans as part of our dinner and they were good.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_07]: So, you know, no offence to the tinned food industry.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Andrea says, if only we got some cab, some wine.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Michonne laughs and says, girls' night.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_07]: I was confused about why they started with this scene.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_07]: I thought it might have been to remind us of Michonne, even to draw parallels between Michonne

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_07]: and the governor because the first shot that we see are the chains on Michonne's pets.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_07]: And then we see the governor setting up his torture chamber and pulling on those chains

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_07]: with a kind of euphoric, vaguely sexual look on his face.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Vaguely?

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Very.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_07]: The governor torture chamber is a major comic book Easter egg because that happens in the

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_07]: comics.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Some of the worst stuff in the comics happens in that room with Michonne in a very similar

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_07]: position to what the governor is in there.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_07]: So that was a real spine-chiller for comic book readers.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And the stakes, I think, of handing over Michonne become much, much higher.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Both for the viewers who don't know anything about the comic lore and both for the comic

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_07]: readers who realise that that's where the show could take us.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_07]: It just interested me as a cold open because it seemed to be more about Michonne and the governor.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_07]: But this episode, Michonne is barely mentioned apart from this.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Apart from the fact that, you know, they're setting up this room.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_07]: I think the governor knows it's just for her, but as far as they know, it could be for the

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_07]: rest of the prisoners.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, Andrea will know it's for Michonne specifically, but those around him may just be like...

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think something I like about using that cold open is the situation is specific for Andrea

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because she has a very profound relationship with both the governor and with Michonne.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's more or less unique in being that position.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And she's the link between them.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not a coincidence that she has that horrible demise.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it is about that connection between those three characters.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think if that's what the writers had in mind, then I really, really like it.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think to the extent that the show were trying to remind us about that, I think that

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: was really good.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I think maybe something that was unfortunate, and it's maybe the reason that we're kind of

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit hesitant about this, is I don't know if that then really came through in the rest

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: of the episode.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's an alternate version of this episode where Andrea is in a rush and she's

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: rushing to get to the prison to save her friend.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think, as I read that episode, that she was running to her friend.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she was running from the governor was how it felt.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they kind of change the journey, don't they?

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I think it could have been a mad rush to rescue Michonne.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if the episode was like that, then I don't think we would have a moment's hesitation

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: about what that cold open was for.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_07]: But it changes into a pursuit.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think if she'd been trying to beat the governor there, maybe, then I think...

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, sure.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that's not to say the pursuit of Andrea wasn't an effective thing to do with

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: an episode.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's something I might talk about a bit later because I think it does something that I really

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: like, which is when The Walking Dead leans more into the horror of it all.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, I felt like after that cold open, just as you said, Michonne kind of disappears

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: from the whole thing.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, she disappears from the narrative.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is unfortunate because it's the most...

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_07]: She's implied a lot when we see, like, the torture room, but it's...

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, she becomes less the focal point of it and more becomes about the general horror

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_07]: of the governor.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it could just as easily have been the governor's going to torture literally

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody and, well, almost anybody.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like Andrea would still be going through the same actions and the same journey.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's about the group at the prison.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I think there's an interesting change of kind of motivations and focuses there.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think it's a pity.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think the other comic things I was going to touch on were just, yeah, the preparation

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_07]: of the torture chamber.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_07]: I personally find him looking through his torture tools horrifying.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Did you notice what one of the biggest ones was?

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Tom and Lorenzo told me.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, a speculum.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oof.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Anyone out there with a vagina will know why that is quite harrowing.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah, that's very comic book governor and he's starting to physically look like the

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_07]: comic book governor now.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_07]: He's got his big duster coat, his hair is starting to look a bit matted.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_07]: He's sweaty, he's unkempt.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_07]: It's we're going full.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_07]: We're going full governor at this point.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_07]: We also see that he has a dictaphone and a needle and thread, which is delightful.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_07]: In terms of other comic book things, however, though, we see a bit more of Tyrese.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_07]: We see Rage Tyrese, where he's holding Alan over the pit of walkers.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese and his anger, it's kind of a recurring thing.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_07]: And they touch on it in the show, but certainly in the comics as well.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_07]: There's another Tyrese moment, actually, that the governor kind of takes.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Again, props to the people 13 years ago in the Tom and Lorenzo comment section for pointing

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_07]: this out.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_07]: There's a scene in the prison, I believe, where it's the prison or a high school where

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese is shut in a gymnasium with a heap of zombies and you think he's dead, but he

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_07]: survives.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_07]: And we see that again for Tyrese at the start of season five in the Terminus episode where

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_07]: he's thrown out of a cabin and still manages to survive.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Otherwise, I think that is the end of my comic mentions.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_07]: What's your next point?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the other thing that I wanted to spend a bit of time on is I feel, and this will sound

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: quite contradictory after I've been critical of the way the show maybe ditched some of

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Andrea's motivations to do with Michonne, is I think something I quite enjoyed was the

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: middle or maybe the second half of the episode, which is where they basically turn it into a

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: slasher movie.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think something that I was alluding to at the start and that I maintain here is

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they did that really, really effectively.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think on first blush and even re-watching it, I could remember how tense that whole sequence

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: was and how convincing they made it that Andrea really didn't have another option but to run

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: away from the governor.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they set that up really well so that you really bought all of that stuff that stand and

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: fight wasn't an option, despite the fact that Andrea's quite a stand and fight.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, she has an amazing combat with three zombies early on in this chase where she kicks ass.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think all of that sets up how worn down and tapped out she is by the time that the

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: governor catches up with her.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that really helps with that bummer of a scene where the governor catches her.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but that's classic slasher.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly that.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we're just about to make it and then he pops out of the bushes.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Comes back from the dead.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all slasher.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, even being stalked by a mysterious vehicle.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, that was...

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, what was your scariest bit?

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Apart from having to run 10k and not throw up, because that was probably my scariest bit.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, who's to say she didn't throw up?

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_07]: We don't know that.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_07]: It just was cut.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's a lot of points in that sequence in the abandoned factory where Andrea

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is trying to kill zombies while being stalked by the governor.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's great.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really, really good.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess we're in this funny place where I think the story of the episode isn't necessarily

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: good, but as a piece of horror, I think it's great.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what we don't want to underappreciate there is how the show is able to do enough

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to take that power balance and make it feel so uneven that you really buy the risk.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it doesn't feel absurd that the governor would be able to drag Andrea off from the prison

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: like that.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_07]: What Morrissey, David Morrissey, not Morrissey, Jeezo, what David Morrissey is playing well,

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_07]: I think, is the cold, calm of a killer like Michael Myers or any of the other classic horror

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_07]: villains like Jason, not Cabassi, from the horrors, Verhees, is the slow, calm and collected

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_07]: walk.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_07]: He doesn't need to run.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_07]: He doesn't need to break a sweat.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_07]: For me, the scariest bit was definitely the car in the field.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Reminded me of the first half of Jeepers Creepers.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Before it gets shit.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_07]: And they reveal the monster.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: First half of that film is so good.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, but the second half is so bad.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so bad.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it reminds me of that kind of rural horror situation.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_07]: And oh, it just, you know, even then he's sort of fucking with her there as well, isn't

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_07]: he?

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Because he could speed that car up, right?

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_07]: She can't run faster than a car.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we spoke about that a bit.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: My view is that when Andrea escapes into the trees from the car.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Could the governor just get out of the car?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, but you know that feeling like he could be tired.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_07]: He just doesn't want to.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_07]: He's walked a lot that day already.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_07]: He's quite tired from saying of his torture chamber.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: He might have his tunes on.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_07]: He might have his tunes on.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He's listening to Take That, Pray.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Or Faith by George Michael.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Because he got confused about the title.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a B-side.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a B-side.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There was only a very short run of them, but it was a cassette single.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was Take That, Pray on one side and George Michael, Faith on the other side.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Philip's Cool Times Summer Jams Mix.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_07]: That one goes out to all my Parks and Rec creation fans.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Or just him reading Star Trek fan fiction.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Again, Parks and Rec.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Well done.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_07]: We also had a big discussion about whether or not that building was the sanctuary.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Obviously, it's not the sanctuary in the show.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, no.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_07]: But it looked a lot like the outbuildings that they used for parts of the sanctuary.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Very similar feel.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Very similar.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_07]: But I was going to say the kind of pursuit and the fighting in a sort of warehouse.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Warehouse or penthouse.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Not penthouse.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_07]: What am I trying to say?

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, warehouse.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Industrial warehouse is repeated a lot in The Walking Dead.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_07]: We see it with Daryl.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, they love a warehouse.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Daryl and Alpha.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Daryl and Beta.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I think Daryl and Alpha is a greenhouse.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_07]: But Daryl and Beta.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Negan and Rick.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Maggie and the Reapers.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, it's repeated again and again.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_07]: But this is probably one of the first instances that we see of it.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_07]: And one of the most brutal.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_07]: I had completely forgotten this happened.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_07]: I knew she got chased, but I had forgotten that there was this interlude in this warehouse situation.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Part of me is like, why doesn't she just keep running into the woods when she arrives there?

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_07]: But another part of me is like, like you say, maybe she's exhausted and she thinks it's more likely that they're going to finish it off there.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Or...

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Off camera, she's been throwing up for three or four minutes.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: She's just proud to be standing up, let's see.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Or once the governor gets in the building, run out and steal his car.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's another idea.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Things that could have happened.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think despite all of that, I think you've got ten minutes where there's a little micro slasher movie.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's actually really good.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Like the season 10 where Beta comes into Alexandria?

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_07]: That's baller.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_07]: That's a good one.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the episode with the trapped in the haunted house.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, with Connie and Virgil?

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_07]: That creepy ass thing with the people with the golem loincloths.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's a nice instance of The Walking Dead leaning on its strengths and remembering to kind of just...

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Remembering to be a horror show?

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Amp up that sense of peril.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think is really good.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_07]: You wouldn't have got that in season two.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Season two is when it leans most into the human drama of it all, I think.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Although I maintain season two underrated.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I agree.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_07]: I agree.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_07]: One of the things I did love about that whole confrontation is that Andrea is not troubled by what she's hearing when she leaves and she thinks she's hearing the governor being killed.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_07]: She's very, very chill with it.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_07]: She's cold there.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_07]: She's cold and good on her.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_07]: One thing I will say with all these beautiful shots of Andrea running and the governor pursuing her, it's very clearly autumn.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Once you hooked onto that now...

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_07]: In the show timeline, as I will point out in timeline things, it's meant to be July the 1st.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_07]: In Georgia.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't...

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been to Georgia, but I imagine that it doesn't look like that at the start of July.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_07]: It looks beautiful.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a beautiful autumnal thing.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Everyone is wearing far too much clothing for it to be summer.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_07]: But it's one of those things that when you...

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_07]: I think only because we're doing the podcast and I'm looking at it very closely and going, well, this is day 394.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm like, hang on, it's the 1st of July and they're all wearing gilets and boots.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Shearling.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and there's leaves falling off the trees and stuff.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_07]: So, apartment of suspension of disbelief.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, shall we talk about Milton?

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Milton?

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Milton.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Go on.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_07]: The Waylon Smithers of Woodbury.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: He is full Smithers, isn't he?

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: He's full Smithers in this episode.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You know something though, despite I agree with you entirely, I quite liked him in this episode.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_07]: I actually have really enjoyed Milton as a rewatch.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_07]: I wish that he and Eugene Porter could have spent some time together.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm going to say something controversial here.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Milton is better than Eugene.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Ooh, go on.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Go on.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I think he's less of a dick than Eugene.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, he's more normal, hey.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I mean, he's weird and nerdy, but I think he's, I think in this episode, he's

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: actually, he's very brave.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_07]: He is.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_07]: He's very brave.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_07]: He really finds his backbone.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_07]: He's very loyal.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's pretty effective.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I, I was actually, I was really rooting for Milton in this episode, especially again.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Knowing what happens.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, why doesn't he let Andrea shoot the governor?

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, coming back to my point, I think he's very loyal.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_07]: But doesn't he say something like, but you would just give Martinez, and I'm like, Martinez

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_07]: is a chump.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_07]: You're not, like, that's fine.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, that's not the threat of like, we'll take away this power and an even worse power

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_07]: will come in.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, no, Martinez is probably more malleable if we're honest.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_07]: He's a bit of a himbo.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it'd be a much more sort of bro-y kind of, uh, kind of Woodbury.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Bro-down.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you not think of Martinez as kind of a Latinx Danny Dyer?

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a bit of a British reference there.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_07]: I sort of feel like a young Danny Dyer, you know?

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I can see where you're coming from about that.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Martinez isn't Merle.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_07]: No.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if it was, and you're going to get Merle.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Even then, Merle doesn't have the brains of the governor.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know what I mean?

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_07]: No, but-

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_07]: It's not like we're taking the governor away and you're going to get Alpha.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, this kind of leads me into something else I'd noted out anyway.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, go for it.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_07]: I love Merle.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Bye, Peter.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Here's my list.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Merle, Merle, Merle.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_07]: He has cool glasses and a cool haircut.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Merle, let me count the ways.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I meant Milton, not Merle.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I did wonder where that came from.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, Merle's like, Milton, sorry.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So, let's start somewhere that I think you and I are both agreeing.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Neither of us think Martinez is building a torture dungeon for himself.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_07]: No.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_07]: No.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe a backwards cap dungeon or something like that.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, like, he might shoot some people for fun or whatever, which again, not a great thing to do, but he's not a sadist.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_07]: No, but in this world.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, in this world, he's a pretty garden variety stooge.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So, here's my question then.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is, how much does Martinez know?

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think that much.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And here are my cases in point.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So, point.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_07]: For context, listeners, Peter's a lawyer, so this should be interesting.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You've really, really stuffed me here, Lucy.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: These points aren't that good.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, what's your first point?

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_07]: He has a weird cap.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_07]: We'll cut it in edits.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_07]: We'll cut it in edits.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, say something, say something less flattering.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So that could be like, well, aha, here's my medium point that you thought would be a bad point.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So, point in favour of, Martinez knows more than, say, Milton or Andrea.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: When Tyrese questions Martinez about the zombie pit, he says, governor wants options.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's definitely more than Andrea knows.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Andrea doesn't know about the zombie payload at all, I think, does she?

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I don't think so.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, he's a bit in the know there.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Point against, when the governor brings Andrea back in his truck, he lies to Martinez.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_07]: And doesn't roll the window all the way down.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And doesn't roll the window all the way down.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So, whenever I watch these episodes, I always feel like maybe Martinez just has a better feel for how nasty and what's being done to keep Woodbury going is.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's comfortable with that.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But on the other hand, clearly the governor isn't disclosing everything to him.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm not sure where Martinez is sitting in all of that.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there's a bit of a, going on last week's episode, there's a bit of a Daryl parallel there, isn't there?

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, Daryl doing a bit of the dirty work for Rick and Co last season with Randall.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_07]: And the Daryl that we see then, not, you know, resistance French Monsieur David Dixson.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_07]: It's an interesting one.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think he knows.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think there's a question here about the sadism of a torture chamber versus the horrors of war.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_07]: And certainly there's sadism as well in sending walkers in there.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_07]: But when walkers are your weapon and if you're Martinez and you genuinely believe that you're under threat,

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_07]: then what are you willing to put up with?

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_07]: And what are you willing to turn a blind eye to?

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think the governor would ever have anyone know all of his things.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense to me.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think the governor knows all of his things at this point.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_07]: I think he's starting to lose the plot entirely.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_07]: But I don't think Martinez is fully in the picture.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_07]: But again, I think he knows more than, for example, Milton.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_07]: But I think the governor would be very selective about who knows what,

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_07]: depending on what they are willing to thaw.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you were making the point earlier that, you know,

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you were talking about David Morrissey is very much full governor.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: By this episode.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's an arc there, isn't there?

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: When we first meet him, he's not in the same place that we see him at this stage.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's not as bad at first, would we say?

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_07]: He's got the potential to be bad.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, we see him looking at those zombie heads with his zombified daughter,

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_07]: who in the comics, by the way, is not his actual daughter.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_07]: It's his niece.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_07]: He's not really Philip Blake.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_07]: He takes on his dead brother's identity.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Fun facts.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_07]: I think there is an arc there.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that, I think what you're saying about Martinez is right.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't see him as an evil genius.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_07]: I see him very much as the, I don't know, the Dwight, maybe?

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Got you.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_07]: If we take the Negan Dwight.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Are you thinking Dwight from The Office?

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_07]: I was.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, also valid, but not quite.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Did I ever tell you about the best review we ever got of this podcast?

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you did.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Got five stars.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Go on.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_07]: But when a reviewer wrote Office Ladies is better.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, I was like, okay.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like we won.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_07]: My next point.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_07]: OMG, Tyrese and Sasha are still in this.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Had anyone else completely forgotten that they were introduced briefly five episodes ago?

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Because I had.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_07]: We learned that Tyrese is a crummy shot.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Sasha is the more capable of the two.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I take issue with this a little bit.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's quite hard to shoot someone in the head from a distance.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Not in The Walking Dead, it's not.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: No, in The Walking Dead, it's a breeze.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Dead easy.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, barely an inconvenience.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I feel like there go many of us when Tyrese is kind of giving it a fair goal,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but, you know, not quite hitting the moving target in the head.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_07]: So you feel that like justice for Tyrese, essentially?

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I do.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, justice for Tyrese.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Justice for Tyrese.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll take it.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll take it.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_07]: It's nice to see Chad Coleman and Sonequa Martin-Green.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they have a nice dynamic.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_07]: It's good for them to come back onto the show in this rewatch.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_07]: The whole confrontation with them and Andrea on the wall is so confusing and weird.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's confusing insofar as like, Andrea's being a total dingus by this point.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_07]: And Tyrese and Sasha, I think it's important to say, don't do anything wrong in this episode.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_07]: They're very much acting morally with their values, I think.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they're concerned about Andrea at all points and Tyrese makes that clear throughout

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_07]: the episode.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_07]: We see them behaving well when Martinez and the governor are grilling them.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Sasha, who...

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_07]: I was thinking a lot about how her story arc ends with going up against Negan and trying

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_07]: to take him out.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_07]: I loved how quick she was to say to the governor, you know, she looked pretty panicked.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, she seemed to be in her right mind.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_07]: And I wonder if Sasha at that point is getting a better read on this guy than the men around

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_07]: her are.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese is worried that the governor is going to send them after Andrea, but they meet up

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_07]: with Alan and Ben.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Alan and Ben, who I just always forget they exist.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_07]: And then I see Alan's face and I'm like, ugh.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He's back.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_07]: They give some shit backstory about like, my wife thought you were more a man than me.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm like, oh, really?

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Like, okay.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I've just written naff backstory in my notes, but they get taken out to the Walker

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_07]: pits by a character whose name is either Champeter or Shumpeter.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Gonna go for Shump because that's what they call him in the notes there.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_07]: They say no weeding out today, Shump.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_07]: We're just taking all of the Zeds.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Alan is into it.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Alan's like trying to hook onto Zeds before anyone even tells him to.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Whereas Tyrese takes umbrage and says they got women and children.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_07]: He and Alan have an altercation.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese, I would say is a little bit of a bitch to Alan, but Alan kind of deserves it.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_07]: When Tyrese says like, you looked out for Donna, you know, rage Tyrese.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Alan and Tyrese have this fight where it looks like Tyrese might let Alan drop into the Walker

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_07]: pit, but he pulls back.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_07]: And Martina says, Shump, take him back into town.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Let him do some knitting.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_07]: So they're not happy about this.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_07]: And we see, then we see the kind of mislead of someone burning the zombies.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_07]: We don't see who it is.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_07]: We may assume it is Tyrese or Sasha, but of course we know by the end of the episode

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_07]: that it's Milton.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_07]: The governor continues the kind of, I'm a decent bloke really thing with Tyrese's group.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_07]: It's nice to see, I think, David Morrissey slip back into trying to be the charming governor.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_07]: I think it makes it more unnerving when we know the other pieces of the puzzle that are

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_07]: in play at this point.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_07]: He says to them he didn't find Andrew, he hardly made it back himself.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Tells a lie about using biters on a leash to intimidate people rather than letting them

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_07]: run rampant through the prison.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese rightly calls out, why didn't your man just say that?

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Referring to the aforementioned Martinez.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_07]: But then the governor does something quite smart and catches Tyrese unawares with a question

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_07]: about gasoline, which makes it abundantly clear that it wasn't Tyrese who burned the

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_07]: walkers.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_07]: And then bumps into Milton where your skin starts to crawl because you realise that Milton

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_07]: has overplayed his hand and that he has just been found out for what he did to the pits

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_07]: full of walkers.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_07]: So Tyrese and Sasha are kind of cogs in the machine in this episode.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_07]: How did you feel about what they kind of went through?

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So I have this idea that there's an unwritten rule of The Walking Dead that you need at any

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: given time to have one character who isn't just principled.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more than that.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's that they are principled to the point where they are being reckless.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they establish that format, of course, with Dale.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, various people take on that mantle at different times.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl, I think, has it just before he dies.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, with Sadiq?

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think in a funny kind of way at various times, Gabriel is doing the same thing.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes not.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's an interesting example because he's not always being the hero, but he's often

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: taking huge risks on points of principle.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the show is at a funny point in maintaining this kind of recklessly principled character

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: where I think most of us would have said that after Dale dies, Herschel kind of steps into

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that role.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think Herschel is actually very reckless after a good bit through season two.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: He's actually very pragmatic by the time you get to season three.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the show is kind of lacking that character who's going to step up and say,

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: no, this is wrong, even at their own peril.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Where Herschel is reckless, though, I think is in a nice way, it's like radical faith, but

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_07]: not radical as in radical eyes, but radical as in like trusting people are good.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_07]: And having faith in that.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's something I like about his character is that kind of unabiding or abiding faith

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_07]: rather that there is good out there.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_07]: And that if you treat people with dignity and respect, then it will come back to you.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_07]: But I know what you mean.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_07]: It doesn't manifest in a kind of, I will die on this hill.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Herschel's cannier.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's savvier than Dale is or at this point in the show Tyrese is.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: At this point in the show, Tyrese isn't doing a great job of looking out for his own interest.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_07]: No, he's too pure.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, and so I think that's what the show is doing is it's bringing in some

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: more character, another character to do that.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think at this point in the show, I don't feel like Sasha has been developed very much.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think Sasha doesn't really come into her own until the prison has collapsed and

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_07]: she's on the road with Bob.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And Maggie.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I, I, Sasha becomes great.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: She, she's a brilliant character.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_07]: You love her because she's Michael Burnham.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_07]: It's all win.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all good news.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think at this point, I think Tyrese is much more clearly defined.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: There's more going on.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: He's driving the story.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, all Sonequa Martin-Green seems to be getting at this stage is reacting to.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, Sasha's not a comic book character.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Tyrese is introduced with his daughter and her boyfriend in the comics.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_07]: I think they might have just wanted Sonequa Martin-Green for a role because she's amazing.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you remember at Walker Stalker, I think our second Walker Stalker, she walked past us

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_07]: and smiled and you and I were both like, that's the most disarmingly beautiful person

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_07]: I've ever seen in my life.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_07]: She was so stunning.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_07]: And she was tiny.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_07]: She wasn't big at all.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Like she was like really quite short and we were just like, oh, Sonequa Martin-Green.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_07]: She kind of doesn't, I think she gets her own arc.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_07]: When they get to Alexandria and when Tyrese is gone and yeah, she's not quite there yet.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's my theory and I don't know what it is about the show that it needs that

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: archetype at any given time.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think they're between suicidally principled people.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_07]: So annoying when you don't have one.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you're like, oh, we just lost, you know, that guy got eaten by a cow or whatever.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Or no, it was a zombie who was trying to eat a cow or a horse.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh God, it's been weeks since we watched season two.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_07]: How am I supposed to remember?

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_07]: I think the introduction of Tyrese as a gentle giant rather than just a kind of right hand

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_07]: man to Rick was an interesting show choice.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you have any other cogent points or are we into notes?

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I only have, I only have in cogent points.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_07]: In cogent points.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Fantastic.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Did you know Glenn Mazzara wrote this episode?

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_07]: I did not know that.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_07]: He was the showrunner at the time.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_07]: There we go.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we both knew that.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Aren't we both clever?

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I enjoyed that Milton was concerned about how things will help Woodbury because you and

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_07]: I are currently, what are we currently re-watching?

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_02]: The Good Place.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, we are.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_07]: So I wonder if Milton is a utilitarian about this, that you can justify things if it will

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_07]: help the most people.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Plausible.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_07]: So I just, I thought it was interesting that for him, the turning point is this is no longer

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_07]: about Woodbury, this is about you.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_07]: And that seems to be a big shift for him.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_07]: And they have this conversation about the governor uses his own logic against him of, you know,

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_07]: don't you believe that the zombies are still in there?

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Then that was Penny.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_07]: She killed a kid.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_07]: And you can see that it's just not really landing with Milton.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that's where he loses him.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's creepy that they have this conversation in the room where eventually Milton will die.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_07]: I know.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_07]: I do not enjoy that at all.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_07]: And the governor is sweating, which is gross.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_07]: Although understandable as it's July, Peter.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_07]: It's summer in Georgia.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think what a lot of people forget is that is how good David Morrissey is.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_07]: He acted the weather.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He did.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: He did.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He was cold.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The world was cold.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a reason Laurie Holden's in a, you know.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: A gile.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: In a gile.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_07]: A gile, no less.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But David Morrissey took his body to July.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He did.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: For the name of the craft.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_07]: It was July in his...

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Loins?

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_07]: No!

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_07]: I was trying to say orbit!

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my god.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Orbs.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_07]: In his orbs.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_07]: You know there's a really bad fan fiction trope where people don't want to repeat saying the word eyes.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_07]: So sometimes they just say orbs.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Really?

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_07]: And it'll be like rather than blue eyes stared back, it's like blue orbs stared back.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Milton and Andrea are getting more allied.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Obviously that's going to become important in the next couple of episodes.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_07]: It's interesting to me that Andrea says about the Michonne deal that Rick would never agree to that.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_07]: She's still very, very certain about Rick's morality.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Having had to spend three months debating whether or not to kill Randall probably would do that to somebody.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Andrea really wants to kill the governor but Milton advises her to leave and get the prison folks because the governor will lose interest eventually.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_07]: I think he's wrong.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_07]: And when he stops her shooting him, he signs both their death warrants and that's a really hard moment to kind of re-watch there.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_07]: I thought that Martinez trying to frisk Andrea or kind of intimating that he might frisk her was quite funny.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_07]: And Laurie Holden did a good job of being indignant with, you want to frisk me?

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And gets away with having a knife, which is a classic Carol move.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_07]: And poor Milton also gets kind of pushed up against the wall by the governor, which is a shame.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_07]: One for my girl Renee.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Rick's looking fine in this episode.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Isn't he though?

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Isn't he just?

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_07]: That's peak Rick.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_07]: That's my man.

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_07]: The burned zombies were cool AF.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_07]: They were good, weren't they?

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_07]: The zombie kebab.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's so obvious to say that with The Walking Dead because, you know, there are always great practical effects.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But there were a lot of really nice effects in this.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember I said to you when we were re-watching it, I looked at that and I was kind of like,

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: actually, you know what, napalming all those zombies at the start of the apocalypse, there is kind of a point.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_07]: You literally said those exact words.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I did.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_07]: As though it was like a debate we've had frequently, like of a Monday.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm like, Peter, do you know what I'm thinking about?

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Napalming zombies.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_07]: I just can't decide whether it was a good idea or not.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Get off the fence.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Get off the fence.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Pick a side.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_07]: It breaks my heart that Rick thinks he's hallucinating.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That is a good theory.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Because you can see him do his head tilt.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_07]: And if he didn't have that baggage of the last couple of weeks, having lost it slightly, would he have gone to investigate?

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Would he have found them?

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_07]: We just don't know.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_07]: The music at the end is You Are the Wilderness by Vauxhall Broadcast.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_07]: Spelled Vauxhall rather than Vauxhall as the place in London.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_07]: And the look of fear and stunned expression on Andrew's face is pretty fantastic.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I remembered the song the minute it started playing.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_07]: I was like, oh my God, I remember this.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, it's a creepy-ass ending.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, especially knowing where it's going to go.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Next episode.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_07]: Notes?

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you just let me ram her through all mine and you're like, yeah, no.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they were great.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I have no notes on your notes.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_07]: IMDb Dive.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Daryl, Glenn, Maggie, Carl, Beth, Herschel, Merle and Carol do not appear in the entire episode.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_07]: No.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_07]: In the timeline, this is day 311 into day 312, which is July the 1st to 2nd, 2011.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So they claim.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, so they claim.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Judith is nine or ten days old at this point.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_02]: She's tiny.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_07]: So Laurie's only been dead for like 10 days.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a compressed timeline.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_07]: It really is.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_07]: When you start thinking about it, you're like.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what?

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02]: In fairness to Rick.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_02]: He's pretty together.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_07]: I was going to say.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: For nine or ten days, he's actually been.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_07]: You know.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_07]: He's gone from quite a lot of emotional extremes to be a little bit like, oh, maybe that was

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_07]: a little hallucination.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Never mind.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that's not bad.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_07]: That's, you know, for a place with no mental health support in any way, apart from a one-legged

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_07]: veterinarian.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_07]: You know.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Who's like, it's fine.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so Rick's entire arc with the governor has happened within.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_02]: About a week.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Within a few days of Laurie's death.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Whoa.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Philip and Rick's love story is a brief one.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_07]: It really is.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_07]: It's a rebound, if you will.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Because Michonne turns up with the formula.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Judith's about two days old.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_07]: You're right.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_07]: And they're having an early autumn that year.

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_07]: Only on The Walking Dead.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Only in The Walking Dead do you chain up your bad boyfriend and bring him to Girls' Night.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_07]: I can't top that.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll stick with my one about Shane being the healthy choice, which I think I've made before.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Need to get new material.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_07]: All right, folks.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Stay tuned.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_07]: We'll be back with news about The Walking Dead.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_06]: The people he kills get up and tip.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Are they slow moving, Chief?

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they're dead.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_06]: They're all messed up.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_06]: This is a Walking Dead cast news update.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_07]: So, in a surprise to probably nobody, there's not that much news about The Walking Dead this week.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_07]: But there were two things I thought were interesting.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_07]: One is an article from Screen Rant called Fear the Walking Dead Star Reflects on Season Finale and Potential Future One Year Later.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Spoiler alert, there is no future.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Fear the Walking Dead star, Coleman Domingo, looks back on his time as Victor Strand in the series finale, reflecting on whether he'd return to the role.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Would he?

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_07]: In an interview with Screen Rant's Grant Hermans to promote his Netflix limited series The Madness, which premieres on November 28th,

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Domingo shared that he still talks to his co-stars Kim Dickens and Alicia Debnam Carey about the Fear the Walking Dead ending.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Still, despite the fondness, the Oscar nominee and Emmy winner expressed some doubt about revisiting Victor while also joking about his Walking Dead and Madness characters being connected.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Domingo says,

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_07]: First of all, that's wild because literally I was with Kim Dickens and Alicia Debnam Carey last night and we had no idea that it was one year ago that it aired.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_07]: That's wild. It was an unconscious celebration.

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, Coleman, I'd be very conscious of celebrating that.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I think that I never say never, but I think that after eight seasons in the arc of Victor Strand, I sort of squeezed everything out of him that I could.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_07]: I think the only way Victor Strand could exist would have to be in his own universe.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_07]: That's what I think. He couldn't be a part of the franchise.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_07]: It would have to be solely about the world that he's building because Victor is someone who can keep transforming and that's what I really loved about him.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_07]: But right now, he's sort of transformed into his cousin, his character in The Madness, Muncie Daniels, and I'm cool with that.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Laughs.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_07]: I think good for you, Coleman, is all I have to say to that.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_07]: The other piece of news, not really so much a piece of news as something that the AV Club published on November the 19th.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_07]: They did a TV Club 10 on The Walking Dead's best character-driven episodes.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Interestingly, there was nothing on this list later than season six.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you want to guess any of the episodes that were there?

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I actually saw this on your notes.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You've read my notes?

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I may have been a bit surprised.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, when I first looked at that, I thought,

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Has Lucy found a list with this episode as one of the top 10 best Walking Dead episodes?

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh!

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, no.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you not have eyes?

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:02:54] Sorry.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Or ears?

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Or a soul?

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Are you laughing?

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_07]: Would you like to read what the episodes are?

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to do that.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So, everybody?

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Ready?

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Ready.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: First one first.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You could probably have guessed this.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Days Gone By.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Excellent.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Great one.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Really good episode.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_07]: 10 out of 10.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Next one.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Cherokee Rose.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Beautiful.

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_07]: I think for Daryl and Carol, that's a really important one.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: From this season.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Killer Within.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh my god, yeah.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Also from this season.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Clear.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, of course.

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, of course.

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Great episode.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Season four, we have The Grove.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I can't wait to get to that one.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Could it remind us what happens in The Grove, people?

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is Lizzie, isn't it?

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this Look at the Flowers?

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It is Look at the Flowers.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Also from season four, Us.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Which is Glenn and Maggie's reunion.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well done.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: From season five, Self Help.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I only remember Self Help because of the weird voyeuristic sex scene.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_07]: But apparently it's also an Abraham flashback episode and Eugene admits that he doesn't know

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_07]: the cure.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, masturbating is just inherently very funny.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it is.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It really is.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: They really screwed the pitch there.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Season five again.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: What Happened and What's Going On.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Which is Tyrese's final episode.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it indeed?

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_07]: It is.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_07]: It's his little hallucination episode.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: From season six, JSS.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Just Survived Somehow.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_07]: It's Enid's backstory.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_07]: R.I.P.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_07]: The Turtles.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_07]: And the final one.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: The Next World.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: What happens in The Walking Dead could pull off a funny, sexy episode?

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Say the AV Club.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_07]: What happens in this funny, sexy episode, Peter?

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this when the funny, sexy meet Jesus?

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Funny, sexy meet Jesus.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want to go to that church.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think you should advertise that.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_07]: It is the episode where they meet Jesus.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Funny, sexy meet Jesus.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Please don't say that.

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_07]: We're hemorrhaging listeners at this point.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Jason's going to come back to nothing.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_07]: And on that note, let's move on to listener moans, groans and grunts.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_07]: So today we've got three voicemails and one listener feedback from the Facebook page.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_07]: So from the Facebook page, Shanna Shanna says,

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_07]: This episode is almost too painful to rewatch.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Which girl could not agree more.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_07]: This feels like the first time in the series it becomes very clear that there were some real

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_07]: apocalypse villains out there.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_07]: This is the comic book governor, completely unhinged and awful.

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Andrea is pure raw terror in that final scene.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Chilling.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Shanna, you are...

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_07]: Could not agree more with you.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_07]: My girl could not agree more.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_07]: All right.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_07]: So we've got three voicemails.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_07]: First up, we have Amber Culpepper.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Lucy, Jason and Peter.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Amber from Georgia.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm calling with some feedback for Arrow on the Doorpost.

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: My apologies if we have debated this to death, but I wanted to contribute to the discussion

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about Maggie and Glenn post the creepy governor interaction.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, uh, the quote that, that y'all talked about from Arrow and the Doorpost was Glenn acknowledging

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to Maggie that he made it about himself when she needed her space.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And Maggie saying she didn't need her space from Glenn.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: She just wanted him to see her.

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there was some comment made about, um, that Glenn had seemed angry at Maggie.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what I'm calling about because I don't really quite see it that way.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, now I will preface this with in my job, I work with individuals who have experienced

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: sexual assault and other sexual misconduct every day.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I sit across the table from them and their loved ones, um, to talk to them about their

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: legal rights and options and that sort of thing.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I certainly don't claim to speak for them, but, um, I do have my observations and one of

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: the most consistent through lines that I see in how, um, folks respond to sexual assault,

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sexual misconduct.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, the, the victim or the survivor often feels this loss of control, loss of power,

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: um, from the situation itself.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But then that also often impacts their loved ones, that their loved ones feel like they

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: were powerless to protect this person.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and sometimes they react by, the, the loved ones react by being very supportive and,

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: um, deferential to the victim or the survivor to just kind of want to be there as a guide

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and, um, help them through the process.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And other times that loved one, um, kind of unfortunately makes the situation worse for

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: them by overreacting, by, um, wanting to drive the narrative, by wanting to insist that the

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: victim or the survivor, you know, follow certain processes, that they file criminal charges,

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that they do this, that, or the other, which just exacerbates the victim or the survivor

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling powerless.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So now they, um, feel like they've been re-victimized.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that might be more of what's happening here with Maggie and Glenn.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, Maggie had the, the, um, encounter with the governor that left her feeling

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: powerless in that moment.

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Glenn felt powerless to protect her.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Then Glenn kind of seemed to, um, maybe become a little preoccupied with justice or vengeance,

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: revenge, whatever was driving him, that he wasn't seeing Maggie and seeing what she needed

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: when she needed him to take a step back and think about her and what did she need in that

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: moment and how to empower her rather than taking the attention off of her for him.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that's because he was mad at her.

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was just because that was his reaction to feeling powerless in that moment.

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, sorry if that went on a little long, but that was just kind of my thoughts and my

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective on that.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I appreciate the conversation.

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Amber, thank you so much for calling in.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_07]: Um, the work you do sounds just so challenging and they must be so lucky to have someone like

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_07]: you to speak to and advocate for people who've been in that situation.

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I think you're right.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_07]: I think there's, there's definitely a lot of emotion coming from Glenn, but I think to

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_07]: characterize it as, as anger at Maggie is probably the wrong call to make in this situation.

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_07]: It really does seem like more of what you were saying about the loss of control for both

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_07]: of them and the, the lack of focus on her.

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, I think it's a really interesting perspective to have on it.

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for calling in.

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Really appreciate it.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Next up, we have our friend and yours, Steve Brown.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, Peter and Lucy.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_05]: This is Steve.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_05]: And this is going to be for Walking Dead season three, episode 14.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_05]: What's it called?

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it's called pray.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We have to pray just to make it today.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, not that kind of pray.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, is this a Michonne and Andrea flashback?

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't remember the details of the backstory of Michonne's walkers.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I vaguely remember it, but I know we find out later, I think.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, it's not just a show of force.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Andrea and Milton are starting to figure out, well, Milton already knows, but Andrea is starting

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_05]: to figure out that a governor's going to war.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_05]: And he's creepily preparing his instruments of torture for Michonne.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Milton stopping Andrea from killing the governor.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and now Morales, right?

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Martinez is disarming Andrea.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I totally forgot that Sasha and Tyrese were with the governor at this point.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And now they're trying to not let Andrea leave.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, but they let her go.

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, the governor is just becoming more and more unhinged.

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Now he's threatening Milton, or at least he's got his hands on Milton because he's worried

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_05]: about what Andrea is going to do when she gets to the prison.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and we have another ninja walker that just attacked Andrea from behind a tree.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And now there's a whole bunch of them all just all of a sudden there.

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think he saw you, Andrea.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_05]: He's coming after you in this truck.

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_05]: How does he know that she came in this building?

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_05]: There was a lot of buildings around there, but I don't know.

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I guess it's put on your spin.

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_05]: It was disbelief.

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_05]: The governor's coming after you, Andrea.

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, not the same whistle as Negan's whistle, but it's still a whistle.

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Ew, crushing that zombie's head with a shovel.

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Ooh, good job though.

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and Andrea just found a whole bunch of walkers.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And she just opened the door and she barricaded herself behind it and released those walkers

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_05]: on the governor.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and somebody's going to burn all the excess walkers that are at this, whatever this site

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_05]: is where they keep them.

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that Tyrese or was it Milton?

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't remember who did that.

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and Andrea almost made it, but not quite.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Governor caught up with her.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Whoa, all those burned walkers down there in the pit.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I guess that part of the plan is not going to work, is it?

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you got a quick answer for everything, don't you, governor?

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not true.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, so the governor knows it wasn't Tyrese.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_05]: He's going to figure out it was Milton who gasolined the walkers.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's right.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_05]: He did catch Andrea and he's got her trussed up in his little torture room, doesn't he?

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_05]: On to next week.

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_07]: I always love hearing from Steve and I was just thinking about another partisan rec, Gref.

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_07]: Pit.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_07]: You fell into the pit.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Alan fell into the pit.

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_07]: What was the creepy whistling?

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it the nursery rhyme?

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's any particular tune.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: As Steve says, it's obviously something The Walking Dead comes back to.

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it really is.

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I read somewhere, and I didn't have time to verify this, that there are a couple of other

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: instances of whistling in The Walking Dead as well.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Porchstick might whistle?

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, Porchstick whistles.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_07]: I think, isn't whistling just shorthand for wanker?

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe.

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think in this universe it definitely is.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I've read there might be the Terminus people might whistle at some point as well, but I couldn't

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: get far enough to check that.

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_07]: They're just happy.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They're having a great time.

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Are you thinking about that Robot Chicken musical yet?

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_07]: Welcome to Terminus!

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_07]: Featuring Daniel Radcliffe as Gareth.

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Really?

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, he does the voice.

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And finally, apropos of what we were saying about Rick looking particularly good this

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_07]: episode, we've got Renee.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Lucy and Peter.

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Peter.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Renee.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I never get to say hi to you.

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Peter, I enjoy when you take over the podcast.

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You do such a good job.

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Lucy, you know I love you.

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You're my girl.

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Peter, I love your accent so much.

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Whenever I'm watching shows with people with accents like yours, I think about you because

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: your accent is a little more pronounced than Lucy's.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's the same, but your accent is, like I said, more pronounced.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, let me get into this episode.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: This episode was not one of my favorites.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Andrea had so many chances to get away from Phillip, so I really couldn't feel sorry for

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: her because she brought all of this on herself.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: After everything Andrea and Michonne went through, I don't understand how or why she chose a man

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and a warm bed over her friend.

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Andrea is clueless.

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Andrea telling Milton he can't keep looking the other way was so contradictory to

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: what she did so many times.

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, girl, how dare you?

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: After all, Andrea knew better than anyone that Michonne was traumatized.

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, she didn't know why, but for me, that would have been even more of a reason

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to stick by my friend.

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have wanted to help her heal from her trauma.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And Phillip, he's a clear psychopath.

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, him and Rick would have made a formable team if he was not a psychopath because he really

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: was planning on torturing Michonne, like seriously.

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really don't believe it was just because she killed his zombie daughter.

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a narcissist.

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And narcissistic dictators like him cannot stand to lose.

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I have said before, people like him really had to be like that before the ZA.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think about this all the time.

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel the ZA would really be like how it is on The Walking Dead.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to always be a dictator that comes along and think that he's in charge, that he

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: could tell everyone else what to do instead of coming together and trying to eliminate the

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: threat as one.

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, again, I'm going to go back to Andrea because Andrea knew that Michonne knew how to

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: survive.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: She knew that.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really feel like that she should have stuck by her friend.

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't feel sorry for her.

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, girl, I'm going to need you to get yourself together because you just made

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: all kind of, you know, poor decisions.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like she just act like she's clueless because she acts.

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I forgot the little Hispanic guy named that works for the governor.

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was a deal on the table.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Girl, really?

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, really, really?

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That had to be a rhetorical question because you really did not think it was a deal.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just no way.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And Milton, oh, he reminds me so much of Eugene.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He definitely could have been an asset to our group, you know, if he would have been

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: able to stick around.

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, he wasn't.

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And Andrea, she has so many chances to get away from Phillip.

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really just couldn't feel sorry for her.

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: She brought it all on herself.

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just is what it is to me, in my opinion.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: All righty.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I will talk to you guys later.

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Peace and love.

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye, Peter.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye, Renee.

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye, Lucy.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Bye, Renee.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, Peter is grinning like a Maddie right now.

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I feel so appreciated.

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_07]: You feel so...

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_07]: I just don't appreciate your accent enough.

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_07]: I love that Renee refers to the governor as Phillip.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like that would really annoy the governor.

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_07]: And that's why I like it.

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_07]: It's like petty, but in a good way.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_07]: It's like, okay, Phillip.

[01:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: There's something inherently funny about the fact he's called Phillip.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_07]: It cracks us up.

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_07]: Every time he comes on screen, we're like, huh, Phillip.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Amazing.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that's that for listener feedback this week.

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Indeed it is.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_07]: All right, that's our show, episode 614.

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Next episode, we'll be covering The Walking Dead, season 3, episode 15, This Sorrowful Life.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: information at podcastica.com.

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_07]: And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts.

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_07]: Richard, Rima and Jason just started back up with the middle five episodes of the final

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_07]: season of Cobra Kai.

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Also, do you know what I noticed the other day?

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Could it be Welcome to the Apocalypse?

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_07]: Season 2, baby!

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not listening, listen.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Listen.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Listen.

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Randy, Jenny, Angry Adam, or I feel really bummed at that.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_07]: You will never not be Angry Adam to me, I'm afraid, are doing a cracking job with our

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_07]: improv zombie apocalypse podcast.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm so excited.

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm actually saving it for when we do our road trip up north at Christmas time so that

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_07]: we'll have something fun to listen to in the car.

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_07]: All right, that is our show.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening.

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Don't get bit, Kirsty Bohans.

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks.