619: "Infected" (TWD S4E2 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Huh. Your daddy asked me to protect you like you're my own, and I will. It's time someone told you the truth. Honey, you're weak. You lost your nerve. You have to trust your gut, and you have to act fast every time. That's life and death.

[00:00:30] I know, but I'm sorry. You want to live. You have to become strong. He's dead. He said he was special, and now he's dead. He said stupid. She's messed up. She's not weak.

[00:01:28] Hey, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 619. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, season 4, episode 2, Infected. Infected. This is like a revisit of two years ago. Yup. I feel like, yeah, I wonder if we're looking at this differently after having been in the pandemic. Right. We'll talk about it. We will.

[00:01:54] But before we get into it today, I want to mention that I'm feeling pretty anxious about people down in Southern California right now. Right. Tons of crazy fires, like the worst they've ever had. And just ripping through Palisades, Eaton, Hearst, Sunset area. A lot of people evacuating. I know some homes of friends of ours have burnt down. Yeah. I really hope that everyone's okay.

[00:02:22] I don't think a lot of people have been hurt, but there have been like five deaths. Yeah. But people losing their homes. And yesterday, Karen Shee, who was on last week, said zones one through five in her town have been evacuated. She's in zone six. And she said they've been lucky so far, but they have their bags packed in case they need to go. That's awful. Wish her the best. It's just awful.

[00:02:49] And I do want to remind people this thing, this kind of thing never used to happen and it's related to climate change and that we need to elect leaders who can help put policies into effect to help combat this. So, uh, it's, I think it's the number one issue of our time. We need to do something about it. If you want to help with these fires, you could donate to the Red Cross or the LA fire department.

[00:03:18] Uh, Karen gave me those two as two good places to donate. So I'll put links in the show notes. Those firefighters are absolute legends. Like I can't imagine what they're putting themselves through and to keep people safe. Yeah, totally. It's wild. And you know, it's not like I was in, I was saying last week I was up in the Arctic, um, over Christmas and it was too warm, man. It wasn't cold enough. And that used to be permafrost or melting away.

[00:03:46] Like it's, it's a scary time, really scary. Um, it shouldn't be like this, but you know, we got to do what we got to do to try and get through it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We need to shift to sustainable energy. So, uh, I always vote for people who talk about that and, and want to try to enact policies that help with that kind of thing because we need to save our planet. Yeah. And we need to make it affordable for people to do that as well. It's, um, yeah.

[00:04:15] I mean, if you do that, if you shift to clean energy, you can build economy around that and not doing it is going to cost us everything, money and lives and our planet. 100%. Uh, and just to add a little bit to the craziness before we get into it, I wanted to mention that my wife, Jenny got bit. I'm so sorry. She got bit man. Yeah. She's okay.

[00:04:44] Which is why I'm not crying right now, but she came, I was just dozing off to sleep and she ran into the room and said, Jason, you need to take me to the hospital. I was like, what the fuck? So, uh, I just sort of went on autopilot, but she was in, um, a couple of blocks away from here and she saw this zombie Emily down the street. No, I'm just kidding. Um, she saw, she, she just didn't see anything. She was, I think in her head.

[00:05:12] And I think she must've, she says she must've walked too close to a dog and it jumped up and bit and she could feel it going into her arm and her muscle and everything. It's so traumatic. Like she's really tough about these kinds of things. What kind of dog was it? Uh, she said she wasn't sure, but it seemed like some kind of a pit bull mix. Actually, I think they did confirm that, which is, you know, unfortunately they have

[00:05:36] a reputation, but Jenny, um, she was sort of worried about what was going to happen to the dog. We had to file something that would get submitted to animal control as part of what's legally required. But, um, the owners were great about it. They said, uh, they, um, sent confirmation that the dog had its rabies shots and they immediately paid all of Jenny's bills.

[00:06:04] And they said that this was the first time the dog did anything like that. That's really responsible. Yeah. And I was like, Oh man, if this dog does it again, then what are you going to say to those people? You're not going to be able to say it was the first time. So it's kind of complicated. You know, I know there's a lot of dog lovers out there and I'm not saying any one way or the other, but it's just hard for everyone. No, it's really hard. And like with dogs, it's there. I think Peter used to do a little bit of work on dangerous dog cases and it was really upsetting

[00:06:33] because a lot of the time it was the owners rather than well, almost all the time it was owners rather than dogs that were the problem because a dog will only do what you teach it and what it learns, but they are still animals. They can still get defensive and they, they don't protect themselves in the same way cats do cats just run away and make themselves small. Um, dogs. Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. I hope he's okay, but I'm glad Jenny's okay. Um, yeah.

[00:06:59] So yeah, we went to the hospital and she got, uh, the wound cleaned and I saw it. It looked pretty, pretty gnarly. And, um, she got antibiotics and pain medication and it like, it didn't go into a nerve or it didn't tear any like critical muscle. She has full range of motion and everything. So I think it's going to be fine. Yeah. It's wild. Well, we've got, I think like six days till the full moon.

[00:07:28] So let me know how that goes. If I don't show up next week, you'll know I've been eaten. Yeah. Ah, shit. I'll see it. So that's fire and, uh, animal attacks. Let's get into plague. Yes. Let's do it. Walking Dead season four, episode two infected. You want to read the plot summary? Yes, I do. Um, a deadly flu outbreak spreads through the prison, killing people quickly and turning them into walkers.

[00:07:56] Chaos erupts as walkers overrun a cell block, forcing the group to fight for survival. Carol helps Lizzie and Mika cope with their father's death, but Lizzie's unsettling attitude toward walkers, viewing them as misunderstood rather than dangerous, begins to surface. Meanwhile, Rick sacrifices his pigs to lure walkers away from the collapsing fences and the group discovers someone is secretly feeding walkers, adding to the growing threats. Who could it be? Hmm. I feel like, did we have a pretty good idea at this time? I don't remember.

[00:08:26] I feel like I did. Yeah. I don't remember what the podcast take was, but I- I don't remember. I thought they laid it on pretty thick last week with the kids being at the fence. So I feel like it was, it was, it was slightly intriguing, but I was like, I think it's going to end up being one of these kids. Yeah. I don't know for sure, but I would guess that maybe I thought, well, it seems like it's her, so the only reason it wouldn't be her is because it's just so obvious. Yeah, exactly. You know, too obvious, but it did end up being her. Um, what'd you think of this one?

[00:08:56] Yeah, I, I really liked season four and this one I enjoyed because in one of my favorite board games, Dead of Winter, um, the idea is that you have to keep your, your group alive through a zombie apocalypse. And a lot of it is like, let's say a loving homage to things that happen in The Walking Dead. But one of the things I like about it is it's a very narrative driven game and it's not necessarily the big things that will take you down.

[00:09:24] It's things like if you don't clean out the trash and people get sick or if there's too many people for the resources, so like lots of little things can combine and suddenly you're in lots of trouble. And I think this episode does a really good job of, it's not just one thing. It's not just the flu. It's also the fences. It's also Rick trying to build this farm, which is now going to fail because of the flu and because of the fences. And you've also got the kids not understanding what's going on.

[00:09:53] You've got Carol being a live wire. That's very nice way of putting homicidal women there. But yeah, it's, it's a nice way of showing that even in the best kind of structured society, things can still fuck up and it can still really cost you. And, and given what we've been talking about, about pandemics and wildfires and humanity, it hits different. It hits different. We've been talking about the community versus isolation.

[00:10:22] People really responded well to that, right? By the way, we got some compliments for Karen bringing that in last week. But yeah, like there's complications with community that are making like this wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a big community, you know, the sickness spreads and, and it, what you said about Rick is interesting. I didn't even think about it, but they're thinking that the, um, sickness came in through the pigs, which Rick's farming is about the pigs. So he kind of,

[00:10:51] You're farming? Killed everyone! It's your fault, Rick! Well, they mention that they say about the Charlie who's locked himself in his cell. They say, Oh, he was out last night eating barbecue. And I'm like, Oh, is that a hint that that's where this flu has come from? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I think they leave it a bit ambiguous, but definitely there's cross contamination with the animals and the humans. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I thought it was an amazing episode.

[00:11:14] It's, uh, interesting cause last week, except for, you know, the whole big spot thing, uh, which is bad. Someone died, but there was a sense of, of, um, ease. Life's good. Yeah. Yeah. Life is good that you don't see in many walking down episodes. This is one of the bleaker episodes. I feel like if, you know, I was enjoying it, but I, but I, if you let it really hit you,

[00:11:41] like at one point a woman walks by with, I think carrying her dead child, you know, and that's just in the background. It's bad. It's like, things are a bummer. Like when they ask Rick to explain what happened and he's sort of silent for a minute and then this woman walks out, I'm like, it's not funny, but it is a little bit funny. No, I mean, it's almost, yeah. It's just like, shit got bad. Like real bad. It's bad. See that? That's like, basically says it all.

[00:12:06] Um, and, uh, it's also in times infuriating, but in the way that I love about the walking dead. So I think it's a, it's a fantastic episode. Mm-hmm. All right. First point. I mean, I don't have much more to add to this, but it was probably the first time I've really gotten into the storyline since the 2020 pandemic, you know, ongoing COVID is now part of our lives. And it was so interesting to watch and think about the first time I watched it back in like

[00:12:35] 2013 and how, I don't know how dramatic it seemed and how not implausible because it would, I think this episode does a good job of making it a plausible thing. It is a flu. It is going to pass quickly. I would argue that maybe this idea that you like go from being fine to coughing yourself to death in six hours is, it's a lot, but some diseases do do that and we just don't know, you know? That's kind of why I thought last week that maybe it was like a zombie sickness because

[00:13:05] then you could be like, oh, it's like not in our world. It's a zombie thing. So it's worse. But they very clearly said that doctor said, no, this kind of thing happened before. It's not from the zombies. And I'm like, oh, Lucy's right. Cause he, he really, and then I looked it up and it said like the 1918 Spanish flu, which killed millions of people could go from no symptoms to death within hours. So this thing is plausible. It is plausible.

[00:13:34] And I think looking at these ideas of like containment and how to keep people safe and how to keep people separated, this idea that some people who really should have gotten infected didn't like we, they focus in a lot on Tyrese smooching Karen and Maggie and Glenn smooching as well. So obviously you're like, oh God, like Maggie and Tyrese are surely going to catch this, but we know they don't. So it's this, this kind of randomness of it. Like who's immune, who's not immune.

[00:14:01] The worries about Judith, because I realized Judith's going to be a little unvaccinated baby. Like she's going to have very strange immunity compared to what a regular kid of that age would have. I wonder, like, I think, uh, doesn't Herschel or somebody go get antibiotics and maybe everyone takes it. So the next storyline beat, I think as a crew go out to try and, cause I wouldn't be surprised

[00:14:26] if everyone caught it, but they just weren't symptomatic yet when the antibiotics came. Maybe. Yeah. It's funny though, because like, I just think it, it seemed so out there in 2013 and now we're looking at it with this hint of like, oh God, remember when that kicked off and remember when we were all scared. Yeah. Many of us know people who died, you know? Remember people who passed away. Yeah. Remember the way we weren't able to contain it. Remember how uncertain we were.

[00:14:54] Like I remember being an airport in Vancouver. We had like the weirdest start to the pandemic. Cause we'd gone out to Vancouver to see a podcast show, not us. It was another podcast. Um, and I remember saying to Peter on like the Wednesday, like, I feel irresponsible going. This was like early March, 2020. And I've, I've got a history of being a bit obsessive and compulsive about, you know, germs and things. And Peter was very patient. And he was like, no, I think, you know, it's nothing's, you know, there were no lockdowns at this point.

[00:15:24] He's like, I think we're okay. I think we're going to be fine. So we went and then we got there on the Wednesday. Then by the time the show was supposed to go up on the Friday, everything had shut down. It was like people were walking around in masks. Yeah. It was like the beginning of 28 days later, it was bananas. And then we got back to our province and we were told you can't leave your house for two weeks because you've been out of province, which in Canada is like being out of, out of country because the provinces are so huge.

[00:15:51] Um, and it was just this really sudden shift from like everything was normal to everything is dangerous. And I was thinking about that a lot watching this episode, how disease and germs, you can't see them. You don't know what it's like. You don't know how to understand it. And even in our very developed society, we didn't know how to handle a pandemic. And these people are working with no medicine, with no hospital infrastructure, with very

[00:16:21] basic hygiene facilities like hot running water is probably something that they're not able to have. And I just thought that is so terrifying. And I think I find it scarier now than I did back then because we've had a taste of how close to that it can and has come for some people. And then the rest of it, I think my first point is really just talking about the, the way that things sort of just landed on a second viewing in a completely different way.

[00:16:49] It really did just hit home that the system that we live our life in is very fragile. Things can fall apart really easily. The things we rely on, the things that we expect to get delivered every day, the things that we, you know, like you were saying, Jenny going to the hospital to treat a dog bite. Like, great. She was able to do that. Yeah. Cleaned it out, got antibiotics. Cleaned it out, got antibiotics. Yeah. Could be gone. Yeah. A hundred years ago, she might be dead because you know, the disease, that's how it spreads.

[00:17:19] So yeah, I think I got more anxious watching at this time thinking about what we'd all been through and what people are continuing to go through. And next week, I mean, we're really going to see them going through it because everyone, a lot of people catch it. I remember this episode and Herschel's there trying to tend to everyone while he starts having symptoms too. And just, you're afraid they're all just going to die. Yeah. It's so scary. It's so scary. I mean, I do, I did laugh that they have really bulked up the person with quite a lot of red shirts.

[00:17:48] Like at one point I was like, there are so many people in this prison. Well, they're like, they came to this thing last, I think the natural conclusion to last season, like let's have Rick decide that instead of leaving people on the side of the road, he really wants to bring people in. They brought a bunch of people in and now they're like, I almost feel like during the break in between, they're like, we got all these people now. What are we going to do? Murder them. Murder them. Because they all get on. Okay.

[00:18:18] Yeah. We're getting into later episodes, but yeah, I feel I am like, I don't think anyone really survived. I feel like from Woodbury it's, uh, Sasha and Tyrese. They're not even really from Woodbury. I think it's no one. No. Bob's not from Woodbury. Nope. Nobody. No. Yeah. It sucks. So that's my kind of bleak philosophical point about, um, this being an interesting watch post 2020. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wonder, I wonder if listeners have thoughts about that too.

[00:18:47] I hope you guys, if you have thoughts about it as it relates to the pandemic, be interested to hear. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about Lizzie. Oh, Lizzie, Lizzie. Lizzie is a great character in the show. Bright and Charbino as well is fantastic. She's really good. She's very good. Yeah. For a little girl. Yeah. I mean, for anyone, but just impressive that a girl can do so well at a role like this, a young person.

[00:19:12] Um, I think the implication, cause there's a couple of mysteries set up this week that we know for sure the answers to now who's feeding the zombies and who killed Karen and David. And I think the implication is that Lee Lizzie feeding rats to them drew more in, which is why the fence is giving. I think. So it's kind of. I think it didn't help. Again, it's a cluster. It's a cluster fuck because they also get drawn by the sound of the gunshots. Right. And the activity at the prison.

[00:19:42] But yeah, them being there already is not good. Yeah. Um, later and Karen sees, I think probably Lizzie's drawing of kids at the fence and Zed's on the other side with one labeled Nick. And Karen's like, no, weird. Uh, then when, uh, zombies, you know, get it. The zombie breakout happens in the prison with all hell breaking loose.

[00:20:10] And I totally forgot that Lizzie and Mika's father, Ryan got bitten in this attack. Yeah. I didn't even remember them having a parent aside from Carol. Um, and him just laying there saying it's happening. Isn't it is so zombie delicious. Like, Oh no. I know. And that moment where Carol's like, it's okay, we're going to amputate. And then it's like, Oh crap. Yeah. Not good.

[00:20:35] And then, uh, uh, he asked Carol to look out for Lizzie and Mika, like they're hers. And she says, yes, immediately, which we know is a big deal for her, given that she lost a child. Um, and we know how it's going to end up too. So it just, you feel the tragedy in it. Um, then Carol brings them in to say goodbye. And, uh, he just dies right there. And she just sort of calmly says, you know, I have to do it. Or are we supposed to do? You can wait outside if you want.

[00:21:01] And she's sort of trying to normalize this, I think, and even encourage them to stay there so they can inure themselves to it, you know? And, um, I think at this point it's pretty clear already that there's something wrong with Lizzie or something up with her. Uh, but we didn't know the extent of it. We knew that she was, that she saw zombies as normal, but we didn't know that she would

[00:21:27] keep having these close calls with walkers because she tried to be friendly with them. Like the one on the train tracks later on that she'd keep getting pissed off whenever anyone killed one. And worst of all, that she would kill her sister just to prove that walkers are no different and that she would have killed baby Judith. That's what she was about to do. Knowing all that, I think we see this all in, in a different light. Like, oh my God, we're on the road to tragedy here.

[00:21:54] And also seeing that she's not, what is it Mika says about her? She's not weak. She's not weak. She's messed up. She's messed up. Yeah. As a kid would be like, I don't see that in a like, ew, messed up kid way. Like, yeah, I think you, there would be a lot of messed up kids in the apocalypse. Absolutely. Like this has unleashed something in her. And we see Carl struggle with that as well. You wonder. Yeah. Like, well, I, I'm sort of going to address what I think her troubles are here. Let's see. I mean, I was surprised that she said she wanted to be the one to finish off her father.

[00:22:24] So he wouldn't turn because I know where her story goes. She says, you taught us to Carol. I can do it. You wouldn't expect her to want to. You'd expect her to argue, to let him be. And after, you know, it's okay. He'll turn and we'll still be friends with him. But she, I don't, maybe she hasn't fully formulated her ideas about all this yet. And then she does panic and can't do it. So Carol moves in to do it. And then Mika pulls Lizzie away as she's panicking. And Mika says, it's okay. Breathe.

[00:22:52] Count one, two, three. Look at the flowers, Lizzie. So I think that means Lizzie, I mean, because Mika knows what to do here, that Lizzie's already had some problems with emotional dysregulation. Yes. Where you have trouble managing your emotions. And so people come in with strategies on how to do it. It's common in children. And you know what? It's a really healthy thing for kids to know how to do. I'm always very impressed when a kid knows what they need to do. I'm like, okay. I was never taught that.

[00:23:21] I mean, I could use some of this as an adult, seriously, sometimes, you know, and I get really angry. And Bodhi, he has some of that too, my son, where he'll just get really spun out on something and it's hard to talk to him, you know. And I might start telling him to look at the flowers. I don't know. But not in that way. Don't watch The Walking Dead. Because he'll be like, what the fuck? But I was reading about it.

[00:23:50] Deep breathing slows the heart rate, calms the body, activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is when the body's at rest. It's the opposite of the fight or flight response. Counting and looking at flowers shifts focus away from whatever the source of distress is and gives your brain something to be engaged with. So it's teaching her to pause, reflect, respond more calmly over time.

[00:24:14] So in that context, Carol later telling Lizzie to look at the flowers in the grove makes some dark twisted sense because she's shifting her focus away from the source of distress, which would be a gun. But it's really sad. And so I do wonder if her beliefs that Zed's are normal got strengthened and deepened in reaction to Carol knifing her dad in front of her, a traumatic thing.

[00:24:42] But it was really chilling at the fence later when we think Lizzie's upset about her dad, but it turns out she's upset about that someone killed Nick the zombie. That the feeling I got from that is what is wrong with you? Right. I mean, it's hard not to feel that way. And, and, and it goes beyond emotional dysregulation. That's when Mika says she's messed up. She's not weak. I was thinking about it. Maybe this is just speculation.

[00:25:10] It could be related to not being able to manage her emotions because if she has a really strong aversion to dealing with negative emotions and harsh realities of the ZA, that maybe she buries those by delusionally seeing the walkers as friendly. So she won't have to deal with the horror of the truth of it. You know, it's a delusional coping mechanism.

[00:25:33] And, um, and you know, I think in, in our world, you could have trauma therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy in some kind of a safe structured environment, but they don't have any of those resources in the zombie apocalypse. And I'm curious if anyone is a professional listening to me talk about this, if you have insider thoughts about it, we'd love to hear about it. I really would. Yeah. I'm with you on that.

[00:26:00] Cause I w I would want to see her get help, not be killed, you know, but I, I will, we'll get to it in the Grove, but, um, I could understand why Carol did what she did in that case. Unlike some of the things she does in this episode. Oh boy. Yeah. Um, Angela Kang wrote this episode. Oh, wow. Yeah. Good job. Yeah. Good job, Angela Kang.

[00:26:29] I always like when we see like, you know, people who go on to have different roles in the show and that to me, this is kind of the Gimple golden era. So it's nice to see that there's Angela Kang in there as well. I always like to point out Gimple really ushered walking dead into it's when it became a phenomenon. He steered it through that. Yeah. And then he stood right to the ground, but. Yeah. And then he, as with so many people stayed a bit too long and didn't give it over when he maybe should have.

[00:26:56] Um, I thought that the zombie gore in this episode was really cool. There was some good detail gore. Highlights for me include, I thought Patrick was a really creepy looking zombie. Yes. And the way he moved was awesome. Oh, he was great. Um, I sometimes wonder, do they cast these people zombies first actors later or do they go for the actor and then hope.

[00:27:23] The contrast was great with him because as you pointed out, I think last week, he's such a cute kid, right? Almost like a little Harry Potter. Oh, he's such a cute kid. And then he becomes this like little demon. Yeah. Um, one suspension of disbelief. Can zombies climb stairs? If the rioters need them to. Okay. Cause I think Patrick ends up upstairs and Daryl's like, it's Patrick. And I'm like, huh? What? How'd you climb up the stairs? I thought it's the bath. Anyway, it might just be me being wrong.

[00:27:49] Well, in early walking dead, we see them climbing fences, you know, but we, then maybe that was retconned that those were variants. I don't know. But maybe I'm thinking of Dr. Who and Daleks. I'm like Daleks. Daleks. Zombies can. Daleks can. Um, if we see any hovering zombies and they say exterminate, then we'll know. Then we'll know. Um, so Patrick, all in all, fantastic zombie.

[00:28:18] I really loved, there were two, three detailed bits of gore I thought were great. One, number one, Patrick eating the guy's jugular. That was gross. Um, proper. The guy should have flailed around a little. He just like woke up and was like, oh, this seems wrong. I think he got him right in the windpipe. So would he have stopped? Oh, it was cause I was like, oh, he's going to yell. And then I'm like, oh no, he's not. Um, then eating the guy's stomach, but not enough so that when he stood up his intestines fell out.

[00:28:48] Yes. It was great cause he's sitting there eating him and then he gets distracted by some noise and wanders off. As I do. Right. Then the guy reanimates and kind of falls off his, or rolls off his cot and has got some all out. So gross. I mean, I've had hangovers that felt like that, but I don't think it actually happened. I feel like my brain's going to fall out or I wish it would. Oh, and you're just like, no. Um, and the final one was the zombies at the fence.

[00:29:16] The eyeball squish was gross. There's like a zombie gets squished up against the thing and its eye starts bugging out and it's horrible. So those are my three gore highlights. But something I meant to mention in my first point about how everything kind of compounds. It was interesting that, so Patrick, I mean, the thing that I didn't mention in all of this is that they also have the zombie outbreak because Patrick dies of the flu. Um, and the other thing that's interesting is he doesn't, he's following Karen, but the

[00:29:46] reason Karen isn't bitten is because he's distracted by somebody coughing. So the flu has all these multifaceted effects. It kills Patrick. It distracts him from eating one person and takes him to eat another. Someone upstairs has already died just because of the flu and only just happened to shut himself in. It's just, it's so clever how all these things are coming together. And I think they rendered the kind of viscera of the zombies really, really well.

[00:30:13] I will say I could not watch the pig stuff the second time. I fast forward as I can't watch. It's too sad. It's too sad. I can't do it. These little piggies, oh, Violet and her family. R.I.P. Yeah. Too bad. It was the pigs or the humans. I know what the pigs are. I know, I know. They're meant to be smart as well. I mean, honestly, it's like, okay, Rick, you stepped up, probably saved everyone's life

[00:30:43] once again. Yeah. Uh, at least for the time being. But remember last week when they were talking about a boombox or something at the big spot? Like, where's that? What happened to the boombox? Rick's so dramatic. He's like, no, I must slay all of the pigs. And they're like, no, it's fine. We can just make noise. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. I'm going to do it now. He's such an emo. You're just like, right, okay. And then he's like burning his shirt at the end. Like, ah. And I was like, right. No, I'll get to my thoughts on that. But, um, I, I agree.

[00:31:11] I mean, this episode had some great zombie stuff. And when I watch it, it, I still remember. Oh yeah. This is why I even wanted to start watching the show in the first place. Cause I like this zombie horror. And this is my favorite kind where it's in an enclosed space with darkness. Like even with Karen walking around in the shower area. Oh, that was fun. Yeah. And he, it's really creepy. And she gets, she walks away and then you see Patrick, me ambling around in there.

[00:31:38] Um, and the, you mentioned that Angela Kang wrote it, which I think makes sense because I remember when she came in as showrunner on seasons nine and 10, there was more of a focus on horror. And then I got to talk to her about it when I interviewed her and she says, yeah, she loves horror. So it makes sense that she wrote this one. I'm sure she had a fun time writing all those scenes. Me too. I'm going to see Nosferatu tomorrow. Oh yeah. I want to see that. I've heard it's good. Yeah. I'm intrigued to see it. Peter was like, I'm picking the film. We're going to see Nosferatu.

[00:32:08] I'm like, okay. It looks cool. Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes. Yeah. Okay. My next point is called Carol. Grr. I feel pretty triggered by her in this. Her heart is in the right place. I have to remind myself she wants to protect everyone, but she's handling things from a place of hurt and severe trauma, which I think a lot of people are in this situation.

[00:32:36] But she's making these decisions that really impact other people's lives, sometimes ending them without any buy-in from other people. You could say the same thing about Rick sometimes, but it feels worse when it's about kids and also just killing innocent people, sick people. I don't like how she talks to kids, for one thing. She's very manipulative. She tries it with Carl. It's quite funny because Carl doesn't really take her up on it. Yeah. But that made me really uncomfortable because I was like, mm-hmm.

[00:33:04] Sitting there, just saying, don't tell your dad. That's awful. And then I was so proud of Carl for telling his dad, you know? And then his dad said, you did the right thing by telling me. Let's not tell anyone else. I'm like, you're not really modeling good behavior there, Rick. It was like, I mean, Carl's the same as me. He's like, I think we should be training these kids, but we should tell their parents. And Rick's like, hey, let's just let her keep going with it. Seems fine.

[00:33:35] Yeah. But first, though, when she's talking, you know, Lizzie fails to kill her own father to prevent reanimation. And Carol says, Lizzie, we're going to have to talk about what happened in there. Your daddy asked me to protect you like you're my own, and I will. It's time someone told you the truth. Honey, you're weak. You lost your nerve. You have to trust your gut, and you have to act fast every time. That's life and death. If you want to live, you have to become strong.

[00:34:01] And this reminds me of the speech that Carol gave to little Sam later about the monsters in the woods. Oh, yeah. And it's, again, her heart's in the right place. She wants Lizzie to be able to protect herself like Sophia couldn't. But telling her she's weak, I have a real strong aversion to shaming kids to get what you want. Especially you're weak because you couldn't stab your own father in the head. I don't like it.

[00:34:28] I think if you're going to shame somebody like that, a lot of times they don't feel empowered. They feel you can't be your best self if you're ashamed of yourself. I would say something like, I know that was hard, but you're brave for even trying. We're living in this world now where we have to do hard things to survive, and that means you have to act even when it's hard. So we will practice and build strength together so when you need to, you can protect yourself.

[00:34:55] And then I just pictured Carol training Lizzie to kill walkers like Daryl was training Laurent in the Daryl show, you know? He did it the right way. Yeah, he did. Carol, so then she gives Lizzie a knife and I'm like, is she ready for that? And I'm sure that's the knife she'll use later to kill her sister. After Carol's cleaned it off from Karen and David, she's like, geezo. Right, right, right, right. Framing the little kid.

[00:35:23] So then dealing with the sickness, you know, Tyrese finds Karen and we later learn David, I guess, so she knifed them and dragged them away. He sees a trail of blood. I assume so because there was blood. Trail of blood, yeah. Either that or Peter said something pretty gross about Karen being on her period, which was pretty disgusting, but also quite funny. Oh my God, Peter. I know, lowering the tone. Everyone thinks he's the nice one and then he said that gross thing.

[00:35:49] Um, yeah, I assume she knifed them in their sleep and then took them out and burned them for, you know. Or maybe they were just coughing up blood from the sickness. Yeah, but why would it be being dragged along the ground that way? Stop it! Yeah. You're right. Leave me alone, Carol, why? Why? So I was watching to see, you know, what led her to this? I'm a little confused. We know Karen and David were the only ones showing symptoms at this point.

[00:36:18] And, um, at the council meeting, they're talking about the sickness and it seemed like Carol was on board with quarantining. She said, Patrick was fine yesterday and he died overnight. Two people died that quick. We'll have to separate everyone that's been exposed, which is quarantining, which is what they were doing with Karen and David. But then Herschel and Daryl pretty much say everyone's been exposed. So I'm not sure how that leads Carol to think she should kill the people showing symptoms.

[00:36:46] Uh, Karen is coughing and, and she says David was coughing too. Uh, a little later, Carol tells Daryl she's worried about Lizzie and Mika because they were around Patrick. And Daryl said, well, we all were. And Karen and David will be separated until they feel better. So again, I'm not sure how Carol took from that conversation that Pete people showing symptoms should be killed. And it didn't even work because next week, of course not a bunch of people get more sick next week. A bunch more people get sick.

[00:37:17] And if everyone who gets it dies within a day, which no guarantees they do, but maybe because that's what happened to Patrick, then nature would have taken care of, uh, Karen and David anyway. So Carol really didn't need to do that. I think it's unforgivable still. I was wondering, you know, sometimes we come back to the rewatch and see things in a new light, but I just think it's insane. I think it's the worst thing Carol's done.

[00:37:42] And if there's anyone saying, shut up, Jason, Carol's the best, then I would ask yourself, what if Carol was the one who got sick and Karen killed her? Would you be standing up for Karen? You know? Shut up, Jason. Carol's the best. I don't like it. It's definitely a bad thing that she does here. It's great. It's murder. It's murder. It's really dark. Um, it's really dark. And you can see the logic for it forming in her head in this episode where she's like thinking about containment and.

[00:38:11] I don't get it though. I really, I tried to look through the dialogue and understand because it was confusing at the council. They were talking about who's been exposed and how you have to keep some people away from the kids or something. But then they seem to say they've all been exposed. And so somehow Carol took away from all that. Well, if you have symptoms, then we should just kill you. It doesn't make any sense to me, really. I think it's a very extreme response to, yeah.

[00:38:41] You'd hope she would have some clear thinking about it if she was going to go to those lengths. You really would. But I think sometimes when we panic, we don't, you know, this is a very bad example of when we panic, we don't think things through. Yeah. I mean, I, if it was me, I would, I would totally be on board with what Rick did, which was banishing her. And then we know that she gets to come back in the group because she saves everyone at Terminus.

[00:39:12] And I don't know, man. Even then I'd be like, thanks. See ya. Oh, no. I, I, I would. I'd at least put her on probation of some kind. I know that sounds like if you're like a Carol fan, you're like, screw you, Jason. But no, but if you murder two people in the group, you don't get to just come back and be trusted. You have to earn the trust. But what if she handed you your beautiful baby that you thought you'd lost? I'd be like, thank you. Bye. I'd be like, thank you.

[00:39:42] You're on probation. I'd be like. You gotta earn trust. Just come on. I mean, that's what we're talking about in the ZA. You know, people are quick to say, oh, yeah, this person's sketchy. Kill them if we don't know them. But if we do know them and we've come to feel connected, then it's like, oh, yeah, just let them get away with whatever. Negan's the best. You know. But don't you think, and you know, I agree with you on Negan. This is just me being pedantic, I guess. Conversational.

[00:40:12] Right. Don't you think that people, that is how we survive and exist is because we do prioritize people that we know and love and are close to. Like we empathize with other people, but, you know, in my mind, to be a good person, you do think about everyone as much as you can and you do think about people who you're not directly connected to. And I think a lot of the problems with the world right now are people not thinking about the other people that they don't know.

[00:40:39] But is it not human nature that we do prefer the people that we're connected to and we do make decisions based on that instinct to protect them? Yeah, I think so. And I think that's the impulse that like, I probably told this story before, but when we did our live podcast after the episode where Rick banishes Carol and I said, I think he did the right thing and people booed.

[00:41:06] And I said, well, what if Glenn had been the one that was sick and Carol killed Glenn and they just went, that's different. And I think that's the impulse. Like they care about the people they care about. And so they will give them allowances. And I would probably do that too. Let's say Jenny did that to somebody, you know, I would stand by her. But, um, I just think to be smart that you can't let yourself be blind to something this

[00:41:35] serious where Carol could hurt someone else. So there would have to be like, if it was a stranger, they would just be banished and never allowed back. It's Carol, our friend. So that's why I'm saying probation. Like she needs to prove that she won't do something like that again, you know, because that's important too. I mean, lives are at stake and Carol does do some things later on that cost more people their lives. I don't know.

[00:42:03] I'm just sort of saying this as, as I'm sitting here thinking about it, but it's a good, I'm glad you brought it up because it's what you said is important. It's true. But I mean, I think you're right. I think that what she does is morally reprehensible. And if it was the real world and someone did that, you would never forgive them. It would never be something you could countenance. But it's difficult because I do think even in our own lives, what wouldn't you do to protect your family? What wouldn't you do to protect the people that you love?

[00:42:33] And it's easy for us as viewers to sit back and be like, well, that's dumb, but, or that's cruel or that, cause it is dumb and it is cruel. It's ineffective. It's, I mean. So what Jason's saying is I would have killed everyone. What? I mean, I'm saying like, yes, there's, what would you do to protect the people you love? But when you could just quarantine people, but you just murder them instead, then it's like insane.

[00:43:00] I think like, no, you just murdered people that you just should have left them in their own wing or, or whatever. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know. I think we see with this and the way she is with Lizzie that Carol's just not balanced. She's not a balanced. And she, as we've said repeatedly, she is reckless and she does do rash things that are not well thought through and are often cruel. And that is a very disturbing quality to have as a person.

[00:43:29] I mean, she's one of my favorite characters on The Walking Dead. And I, I'm, I've mentioned this a bunch of times, but I look at characters sort of how good they are for the story, uh, which doesn't mean I need to like them. How interesting they are to watch. Carol's very, so interesting, especially because of the way Melissa McBride played her. And then sort of on a personal level, if this was the real world, how would I judge them morally? And would I want to spend time around them?

[00:43:55] And the thing is with Carol, I think I would want to spend time around her up until now. But after this happened, I, I think I would feel differently about her. And then I, you know, later on, she does a lot of things that I think are great too, but it's just hard to get over this. Yeah. She'd fit in in yellow jackets. I think Carol would do well. Carol. She'd do well on that. Yes. Right on that show. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. She's like, they've made that show with a bunch of Carols.

[00:44:26] Yep. All right. I could keep talking about this forever, but we should probably move on. What do you got? Yeah. What have I got? Um, well, we've spoken about Carol and Carl. I'm glad you brought it up because Carol and Carl is not the easiest thing to say. I, I did, I did laugh when Carl was making the crucifixes and Carol walked in and I thought, is she going to tell him to make an extra two? Like for no reason. Just like, oh, you're making crucifixes for the graves. Cool. Uh, do you want to make another two? No reason. I just, other people might die.

[00:44:55] Um, just to have a few extra, you know, just a few extra, just in case you never know. Um, I had forgot how it is around here. Yeah. You can never have too many. And if you just put a little K on one of them and a D, I don't know, just no reason. No reason. Um, I enjoyed. I enjoyed Michonne's moment with Judith because I forgot that it happened in this episode and it's so powerful now knowing, especially where they end up and the relationship that the two of them have. She's her little show though.

[00:45:25] And I forgot how understated it is. It's not a big leg. Oh my God, do you remember me? I have my son and now I am healed. It's just a little cuddle and holding babies is so therapeutic when they're not screaming. I, I mean, just watching that she's holding her at arm's length, not looking at her, you know, first saying, no, I don't want. Okay. Fine. And then you see her, that emotional barrier crack and the anger is so good.

[00:45:53] And then holds her close and you're like, all right, she lost a child. No words needed. No words needed. We all got that just from that moment. And then later in the season where she talks about Andre to Carl feels really well earned for that moment. And it explains so much about the barriers Michonne has had up. And I just loved it. How would this scene have gone if it was on Fear the Walking Dead? I mean, did he have been hanging off the side of a building while Colm and Domingo threw rocks at them or something? Like, I don't know. While speaking in a Spanish accent.

[00:46:22] My name is Hernando. And like throwing things at them like, gee, no. And Michonne would have been like, you're activating my trauma because I lost a child. Or something. Oh my God. But she got her little shoto. It's so cute. And it's quite funny. Two of my friends recently had their second baby and I got to spend a few hours at Christmas just holding a very, very tiny baby. It was very peaceful. They don't do much at night. Was it the same scene where you said no at first?

[00:46:51] Yeah, I went no and held the baby away from me screaming. And they're like, no, you have to hold her. And I was like, okay. They just started crying. I did. I started crying and going, this has healed me. But no, they're very, they're cute when they're newborn. They don't really do anything. They just sort of snuffle and sleep and it's great. It's very peaceful. They smell good. Yeah, they smell good as well. They fart really loudly though. That surprised me. I was like, whoa, that's like adult sized.

[00:47:20] This led me on to thinking a little bit about the ones who live because there's a couple of things in this episode that shout forward a little bit to the ones who live. One is Rick at the fence because obviously in the ones who live, he wins. You know, he's the person who's killed the most zombies at the fence because he's weirdly good at it. Turns out he got a lot of practice at the prison. So that makes sense. As did Michonne. We have the Judith and Michonne moment, which is just really, really beautiful.

[00:47:49] We also have just the dynamic of Carl and Michonne and Rick at their happiest kind of talking shit about stale M&Ms and picking up comic books and this kind of banter that they have that is just so easy and so enjoyable. Something I found interesting was I've become a little bit obsessed with this idea of Rick having grown up on a farm where someone burned everything down to make the crops grow again.

[00:48:16] I was like, is there a reading of this episode where he's thinking about that while he's slaughtering the pigs and setting the fire? Is it just the case that he doesn't mention it verbally? Like, I enjoyed looking at it with a reading of, okay, let's go with it. Let's say that he does have this experience in his past. He does know what it is to burn a place to the ground and he does know what the sacrifices are that have to be made. Maybe slaughtered some pigs. Yeah!

[00:48:42] And it deepened my appreciation of both the ones who live on this episode in quite a nice way. So I'm enjoying kind of looking forward to what's coming up and thinking about how these things all tie in together. And I thought it was very sweet that Carl picked up the gun for Michonne to save her. Not believable. She would need it, but you have to suspend her both. She did trip over. Um, she doesn't trip. She doesn't trip.

[00:49:12] She did trip over that rope. Um, I think Carl and Rick's dynamic within that as well of Michonne asks Carl why he wasn't wearing his hat. And he says it's not a farming hat. And you get the sense in this episode really strongly that Rick's turn towards being a peaceful farmer who has plans with cucumbers and makes mulch and all that stuff is actually more about Carl than it is about him in some ways.

[00:49:41] He's very worried about what Herschel told him last season about Carl shooting that boy. And it's about the two of them having this peaceful way of life. And we see in this episode that's not sustainable. You know, by the end of it, they're both armed again. And yeah. And I think that's why they didn't do the boombox route because Rick is sort of hiding away from anything violent. Like you said, he's all or nothing. Yeah.

[00:50:09] And, and, you know, Carl is trying to be a good son and follow him there. And I think he has been impacted by this, but he also recognizes that there's an in-between that they need to protect themselves. And so I think they did the pig thing to kind of show that Rick can't escape the violence. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's a violent solution to the problem. And Andrew Lincoln plays that scene amazingly. Certainly the look of kind of despair on his face and the way that he's covered in this

[00:50:39] disgusting blood and the grief that he's feeling during it. I'm just like, oh, this is. Yeah. Along with the uncomfortableness of seeing. Yeah. Animal get killed. It's just. Oh, just awful. But yeah, I think the. Several animals. The Michonne Grimes dynamic in this and the way it flashes forward and opens her up a bit more is just really lovely. I enjoyed that a lot. Yeah. And now, I mean, when do they get together?

[00:51:08] Is it at the end of this season? No, it's a while away. It's mid season six. It's not until then. Because I really feel like now the writers do have it in mind. I think so. I felt it a lot more rewatching it. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. There we go. I keep having these interactions with the three of them. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So, yeah. Come on. Hurry up. Hurry up. Get together. Damn it. Are you sure? Because I feel.

[00:51:38] I mean, they're on the road together. They end up. No, I'm absolutely certain. You know for sure. Because it's the episode. So, it's after they get to Alexandria then. Yeah. Because we've got to get through Jesse. Oh, that's right. And Jesse is mid season five. Unnecessary as Renee calls her. Yeah. I think unnecessary is around until season six finale.

[00:52:04] And then we have a kind of reset with Rick and Michonne. And then the next episode, they meet Jesus. That's a great episode. Yeah. Okay. My next one is when you care about people, hurt is part of the package. Oh. Which is a great line that Beth says to Michonne. Michonne's feeling bad about coming back and almost getting Carl hurt while tripping and putting people in danger.

[00:52:32] She says, when I fell on my ass, they should have just left me out there. Beth says, now that's stupid. We care about you. Well, they could have gotten hurt. When you care about people, hurt is kind of part of the package, which I think is a big message of this episode. Yeah. When you care about people, you step up and you take risks to protect them. And it's even a risk to care because you might lose them. Tyrese is talking to Karen being affectionate.

[00:52:58] But then he's troubled about Zach and having died. He says, it used to be we all had acquaintances, just people moving in and out of your life. No big. See them down the road sometime. Now, a handful of people you know and that's it. They might as well be the only people left in the world. So, it seems like he's saying people are more precious now and losing them hurts more. Should have knocked on some wood right up then because he's about to lose a few more. Yeah. Including the one he's sitting next to.

[00:53:27] That whole scene, him singing to her is really sweet. And I think she liked it, but she sort of rebuffs him a little bit, wanting to take it slow. Maybe she doesn't want to risk getting too attached, at least not too quickly. Yeah. She's definitely holding back. I mean, he is. He's love bombing. He's into her. I'm like, fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When Beth asked Michonne if there were any kids around when she'd come back into the prison,

[00:53:57] she's that stings. You can tell. And then Beth says, all these widows and orphans. But what do you call it? When someone lost a child, you think someone would have given that a name. We heard that recently. Do you remember where? Ash said it, I think, on the Daryl show. Holy shit. Yeah, he did. Right? They're stealing stuff. Huh. From this show. Wow.

[00:54:20] And then the whole scene with Michonne that was just beautiful and that we talked about. And that's like when you care about people hurt as part of the package applies. Like she did want to let herself care again because she lost her child. And we know she ends up becoming Judith's mom. Yeah. Yeah. So that really changed something in her there and it was beautiful to watch.

[00:54:48] And I'd forgotten the details about Michonne losing a child. I guess we won't go into it too much because this is a long episode. But those two pets that she had were supposed to be watching her child and they were on drugs. And there was a zombie attack and the kid Andre got killed. So that's why she was so mad at them. And they were zombies too. But she decided to chop off their arms and take them around with her.

[00:55:17] Then, I mean, the season is a lot about kids. Bigger community means more kids. They're vulnerable and need protection. That's another potential thing to lose if you feel connected with them. They're precious. And in this world, they need preparation. So all of that is swirling around. And just that woman walking by with her baby who presumably died, there's a loss right there. So bleak. We don't even know them.

[00:55:47] And then last thing on this topic, Beth is caring baby Judith and singing Tom Waits. I don't want to grow up. When I'm lying in bed at night, I don't want to grow up. Nothing ever seems to turn out right. I don't want to grow up. How do you move in a world of fog that's always changing things? Makes me wish I could be a dog. When I see the price that you pay, I don't want to grow up. So I think that part is about growing up means taking responsibility to take care of yourself and the people around you.

[00:56:16] Which, I mean, kids in the ZA need to take care of themselves to a greater degree. Carol's taking it upon herself to prepare these kids. But I also think growing up is about stepping up and taking care of things in general, which relates to Rick deciding to lead again. More of the lyrics of that song, I don't want my hair to fall out. I don't want to be filled with doubt. That's Rick. It might as well be a song about Rick. Yeah. That hair man. He's got to take care of that hair. Losing the war.

[00:56:46] Oh. So anyway. Where do you stand on Tom Waits? I don't know a lot of Tom Waits. He's been in this show a few times and I've liked the songs that they've picked. There are usually covers, though. I saw him also in one of the vignettes in the Coen Brothers Buster Scruggs movie, Ballad of Buster Scruggs. He seemed pretty good in that. So I think from what I've heard, he's great. What about you? Oh, I love Tom Waits. I had a...

[00:57:16] Which tape of Tom Waits was it? A tape? A tape! Old. It's been a while. It's what everyone has Martha on it. Closing Time. My parents had that tape and I loved it. I used to listen to it all the time. He's sort of like Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen. Just these really distinctive voices. And yeah, it's just so good. It's about the poetry of it, right? It's about the poetry of it.

[00:57:43] And Closing Time opens with a song called Old 55. My dad is a big Eagles fan. So that kind of music was always playing in our house. And yeah, if you get a chance to listen to Closing Time as an album, it's really, really good. Yeah, that's my little plug there for Tom Waits. Who is still alive? I think he is, yeah. Still going Wikipedia. Yeah, 75. Whoa.

[00:58:12] Go you, Tom Waits. Yeah, I've always had this nice association with him in The Walking Dead as well. So yeah, it's nice to hear Emily Kinney sing again. Yes, for sure. So good. All right, what else? Anything else? What have I got? What have I got? I think we might have covered it. I think most of my stuff is notes. I got two more. Go for it. So Rick stepping back up to the plate.

[00:58:44] They're very consistent with him being always anxious about his decisions. And The Walking Dead is that kind of show, as is the telltale game, where sometimes there's not really a perfect answer and someone's going to suffer no matter what you do. So when you have a situation like that and a person who just tears themselves to shred over things not going well, you're going to have a really anxious, torn up guy, which is what Rick is.

[00:59:13] And I think it's good that he took a step back and made way for others to lead, at least in some sense. I mean, as you said, it was about Carl. He said to Daryl, I screwed up too many times. Those calls you got to make. I start down that road. I almost lost my boy, who he was, whatever else this place needs. I'm here for it, but he doesn't want to lead.

[00:59:40] And Carl's trying to follow his lead with the farming and everything, but also trying to encourage him, come and help kill the zombies at the fence. And can I have my gun back? And, you know, it's not all or nothing, dad. We have to, we can't just hide from this. It's the reality of the world. And not only that, like, not only can Rick not never be violent. That was double negative, but hopefully it made sense. But he is also a natural leader. He's, he's strategic.

[01:00:10] He's caring. He's good hearted. So I think he just gets pulled back into that position. You know, Daryl is trying to call him back to being a leader. You know, thank you for helping us in the prison. But are you going to help us figure this whole Cygnus thing out? And says, we wouldn't be here if not for you. And, and I just love that.

[01:00:31] All of that is true that even though Rick is imperfect, there's a lot of things that are really great about him and people. Like if it would be one thing, if nobody wanted him as leader. Yeah. But they do. And I just think it would be so hard in the ZA to lead with very little resources, monsters, both a human and undead kind, constantly trying to kill everyone.

[01:01:01] Um, I look at the other leaders. They're either total assholes like Negan or Gregory, or they're the good ones like Maggie. I think all her people that she was leading when she left died because of the Reapers, right? They killed them all. I don't blame her for that. It's just a tough fucking job, you know, in this world.

[01:01:24] So anyway, um, Rick decides to jump back in and help when he takes those pigs out and lures the zombies away. Then he gives Carl his gun back and he puts his own gun belt on with his iconic cult Python. And it's a recognition that he can't hide from the violence. He throws his farmer shirt in the fire cause he's emo. And I'm like, that pacifism didn't last long. They should have had some like my chemical romance playing at that point or something. Yeah.

[01:01:54] He should have like put his head down. It was very emo. I was like, hell, if I looked like Andrew Lincoln, I'd take my shirt off all the time as well. But, um, yeah, there's a fascinating scene with the council where I realized Rick's not in the room. And obviously, you know, we know he's not in the council. By choice. Interesting. It's Sasha, Herschel, Glenn, Carol and Daryl. So I'm like, wow, that's actually a really cool council. Apart from Carol, who then goes off and murders people.

[01:02:22] She's not a team player, but, um, it, it, it reminds me now that you're talking about it of the feeling we got when Andrew Lincoln left the show, which is, oh, there's room for other people here. And even though Rick's my favorite character, love watching him, but it felt like there was some air in the room. Like, oh, other people have a chance to bloom here. And that's good too. Yeah, it really is. And then Rick blooms in a sort of different way, different direction. It's interesting because Carl is kind of being reasonable with him in this episode.

[01:02:52] He's like, you know, we are going to need to shoot our guns. Sometimes we are going to have to do this. And it's, it's so funny to see that dynamic shift and Carl become a more measured person rather than a little, little psycho. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think apparently Rick understands this isn't the same impulse that had Carl wanting to brag about just shooting a boy. This is him being a realist about what's actually needed in this moment. So I'll trust him again and give him his gun back. Yeah.

[01:03:19] And then I couldn't believe Carl just shot Rick right then. That was like bad, bad move, Rick. Right. You should have seen that glint in his eye. I love it. All right. Let's see. I had one more. Go for it. Just about the sickness. There's this new character, Doc S. Dr. S. Yeah. Full name.

[01:03:43] He's talking about the zombies died from pleurisy aspiration, which is when lung pressure builds up and then like a Coke can and blood comes spurting out every orifice. Love that. So nice. Love that description. 10 out of 10. Yes. And, uh, and says, uh, it's not, I said, sorry, not from the walkers. It's these things happened before. It could be pneumococcal, which is bacteria, pneumonia associated with pneumonia.

[01:04:12] And anyway, um, yeah, I guess I already talked about that, but I was glad that they sort of answered some of our questions about that, even though apparently I'd forgotten over time. But I was glad to get that. I know we've spoken a lot about, um, the kind of rhetoric about being a black man in The Walking Dead was a death knell. I have to say being a doctor in The Walking Dead is even more of a death knell.

[01:04:38] Like if you walk in and you're like, I'm doctor, I'm like, oh no, you're going to die real soon. Yeah. I think the fact that Herschel was a vet was just gave him a couple extra seasons, but he's still. Oh, that, yeah, that kept him going. I think he got, he got an extra season out of being like vet adjacent. All right. Notes. Notes, notes, notes, notes. Um, this is a good, this is a good discussion because I've touched on a lot of my notes within it, which is nice.

[01:05:08] As I mentioned, Angela Kang worked on, wrote this episode. Uh, Glenn and Maggie. Glenn taking that photo of Maggie is really sweet. And I realized this is the last time they're going to be together for a bit. Because after this, they're split up due to the quarantine and then the prison is attacked before they can reunite properly. Oh, wow. So that's their last kind of moment of quiet intimacy before, I guess, Alexandria really, because they're on the road before that.

[01:05:37] That, yeah, I love that moment. I, it felt like, it felt real. Like he takes that picture and she's sleeping, but it, but it, it wakes her up and frightens her. And then they both kind of laugh about it. I almost felt like, was that real? And they just had the camera on. Yeah. And then, and then she wants to throw it away and he's like, not going to happen. It's mine. And she smiles at that. That's like goofy Glenn. I love that.

[01:06:05] And it's just, uh, you know, that bonding and love that they share, which makes what happens all the more harder, but also shapes, uh, Maggie's response to it. And her character through the rest of the series. It was weird. Cause she stood up with a jacket on and the jacket looked really like a leather jacket. And I was like, Oh, you're dressed like me. Um, I laughed that Daryl said to Rick, cause Rick was saying I caused all these problems. And Daryl says, when the shit hit, you were standing there with a shovel.

[01:06:35] And I was like, I think I want that on my tombstone. Um, that is it for me apart from IMDB and the timeline. So what have you got? Just that Rick called Judith Judy. And I wondered if that was the only time or. I think it's the only time we hear it, which is funny. Cause it's like a cute little. Yeah. Judy. Judy. All right. What'd you got? IMDB. IMDB.

[01:07:03] Um, not a lot this week. Um, walkers that turned walkers that turned because they died from the virus were given a different look. Special contact lenses were created, created the effects of hemorrhaging eyes. Um, the song that Beth sings to Judith is, as you said, I don't want to grow up by Tom Waits, which is from his 1992 album bone machine. Which I like his title. I wonder if he met that in a movie. Yeah. It sounds like that's the first place.

[01:07:33] You're in my mind. Bone machine. Um, when Mika, this one, again, I don't know that this is really trivia IMDB. When Mika is trying to distract, uh, Lizzie, while Carol puts down their dad, she tells her to look at the flowers. This is foreshadowing for episode 414, The Grove, where Carol tells Lizzie the same thing to keep her distracted right before she shoots her. In the timeline, we've only gone ahead one day. We are supposedly January 27th, day 521. Judith is still around six months old.

[01:08:03] Interestingly, elsewhere in the zombie apocalypse, this is the day Martinez dies. Oh. So the governor is pushing him into a, I want to say into a pit. Um, at some point during the course of this episode. RIP Martinez. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing that great about him anyways. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. I like the actor, Jose Pablo Conteo. He's cool. Yeah.

[01:08:32] Uh, only on The Walking Dead would anyone think killing sick people made them a hero. Only, um, only on The Walking Dead is healthy family bonding cemented by handing your son back his gun. I'd say in the US as well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, fair. On The Walking Dead and pretty much most places in the US.

[01:09:02] Spot the Brit.

[01:09:37] Infected News. Okay. Uh, it's, all the news is about The Last of Us this time. Amazing. It's been, because it's coming up, it's now confirmed that it will premiere sometime in April. Yes. Season two. Uh, the logline says, five years after the events of the first season, Joel and Ellie are drawn into conflict with each other and a world even more dangerous and unpredictable than the one they left behind. So it doesn't say too much. So it's not going to be a laugh a minute buddy comedy. Yeah.

[01:10:07] Switching to a comedy this season. Damn. Um, there will be puns, I'm sure. Excellent. It'll have seven episodes, by the way. Seven. Versus, I think, nine of the first season. And they said, well, this season, you know, is, the first season was based on the first game. And then this, this season is going to be based on the second game. But they said that the second game will take, will span over multiple seasons. And that seven episodes felt like the right break point in the story.

[01:10:37] That was why they said it was only seven. Okay. So I think season three may have more episodes, hopefully. Cool. I'm into it. If they can justify it and it's not, you know, pulling it out artificially long or cramming it together. Yeah. Why not? If it tells a good story, then I trust them. Yeah. Like, don't be like the Daryl show and cram too much story into one short season and have it feel rushed. But I don't think I'll do that. Next thing.

[01:11:06] As of now, there are only two Last of Us games and there's no confirmed third game yet, but there've been lots of clues and indications that it's coming. There's speculation on this website, gamingbible.com. It says during a recent documentary about the making of The Last of Us Part II, developer Neil Druckmann confirmed he has a plan for the third game. But that it will likely be the end of the story. Druckmann says the first game had such a clean concept of like the unconditional love a parent feels for their child.

[01:11:35] The second one, once we landed on this idea of, and I'm taking this part out because I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't played the game. I haven't played the game. Yeah. So I don't want to spoil it for you. He says, we felt like there's a clean concept here and there's a through line from the first game about love. If we never get to do it again, this is a fine ending point. Last bite of the apple and the story's done. The great thing about working at Naughty Dog, that's the development company, is that we don't have to. It's always like we would love another Last of Us, but if you guys feel you're passionate about something else, we'll support this other thing.

[01:12:04] Very privileged position to be in. I never take that for granted. I've just been thinking about it. Is there a concept there? And for now years, I haven't been able to find a concept, but recently that's changed. And I don't have a story, but I do have that concept that to me is as exciting as one, as exciting as two, is its own thing, and yet has this through line for all three. So it does feel like there's probably one more chapter to this story. Okay. Okay. So I'm glad about that. I like threes, you know?

[01:12:33] I think it would be cool to have one more if they've got a good story. I think it's funny that he has a concept of a plan, though. A concept? I have a concept. It's not so much a plan as a concept of a plan. You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. And then last, recently, Last of Us developer Naughty Dog announced a new game they're working on, and I think it looks really intriguing. Have you heard anything about this? No. Ooh. They just put out a trailer.

[01:12:59] The game is called Intergalactic the Heretic Prophet, and it's sci-fi. Ooh. It's this woman who I think is like a bounty hunter in her ship, and the premise on Wikipedia says, Intergalactic the Heretic Prophet is an action-adventure game set thousands of years in the future in an alternate universe where advanced space travel existed by 1986. The bounty hunter Jordan A. Munn becomes stranded on the remote planet Semperia while searching

[01:13:27] for the Five Aces criminal syndicate. For over 600 years, Semperia has been cut off from outside contact, and no one's been able to leave it. In seeking to escape, Jordan fights hostile, blade-wielding robots. Wikipedia also says, according to Neil Druckmann, the story explores, quote, what happens when you put your faith in different institutions? It's centered on a fictional religion and includes science fiction elements taking inspiration from anime like Akira and Cowboy Bebop.

[01:13:55] Tati Gabrielle plays the main character, Jordan. Oh, she's great. Yeah. Yeah. And the trailer has her a lot in it. Druckmann considered her a standout during the casting process, comparing her audition to Ashley Johnson's For the Last of Us as Ellie. Um, I will put a link to this trailer in the show notes. If all goes well, I'm sure at some point we'll be watching a TV show or movie version of it. Yeah. But I'm excited about that, them doing something different, you know? Ooh, I would read that book.

[01:14:25] I would read that book and I might try playing the game. So, yeah. I mean, you played The Last of Us, right? I tried. I'm not very good at making, um, making Joel move, not like a crab. So, we're working on that. Awesome. All right, let's move on to Listermoans, Grounds and Grunts. Our friend Alma Contreras says,

[01:14:55] The mystery of who killed Karen and David was actually a pretty good storyline. Paul Tyrese really got a good beating from Rick. Ouch. Over it. Rick really did piece everything together pretty fast and freaking badass Carol admitting it without remorse was jaw-dropping no matter how many times I see it. The whole infected storyline hits a little different now that we have lived through a pandemic. And I got one question. How did Tyrese live through that horde of zombies engulfing him? LOL, I'll just chalk it up to suspension of disbelief.

[01:15:24] All in all, this episode was and continues being terrifying. Mm-hmm. Randy Stevenson says, Carol gives Lizzie the knife she used to prevent their father from reanimating. Did she also use that knife to kill Karen and David? Uh, here kid, I want you to be safe and also potentially be found holding the murder weapon. I had a small thought to tack on to the three questions conversation about how many walkers have you killed, how many people, and why.

[01:15:55] If you're keeping track of how many walkers you've killed, that's an indicator of what type of person you are. It's not a perfect analogy, but how many ants have you killed? If you said 17, I know taking each of those ant lives meant something to you, good or bad. I would also add, if you said 5,474, then you might be taking pleasure in your sadism of killing ants or something like that. Uh, so Jason and Lucy, how many ants have you killed?

[01:16:23] And remember, if you can't answer, it's because you hate ants. And I can't allow you into my ant-themed post-apocalyptic prison paradise. Sorry. Aw, Randy. I've killed 5,746. I, you don't get that many ants over here. I'm going to say 2. I'm just that good of a person. Tam from Perth says, Hi friends.

[01:16:47] So I think this might be my most disliked episode, so I only got around to the piglet sacrifice and had to turn off. You and me both, Tam. Really happy to skip, but listening to you and everyone's thoughts is enough. As previously stated, I'm a re-watch this once a year girl, so I can keep up. Really? This is just a thanks for the shout-out. Totally took me by surprise. I kind of did a gasp and lost my footing and slipped right out of the bath. Oh no! When I told my daughter, she was like, That's so funny, mum. You're practically friends now. I guess we must be now.

[01:17:15] You all know I listen to the pod in the bath. Winky face. Aw, Tam, that's amazing. That's a first. I, now, I don't want to name in shame, but did Megan Dively Layman not send us a voicemail from the toilet once? Or nearly drop a... I mean, I assume everyone listening has heard us on the toilet. Actually, no, Megan, I'm so sorry. I'm giving you a bad name here. I believe you told us you dropped an earbud down the toilet whilst listening to us. Oh, so she was listening over the toilet.

[01:17:44] It was something to do with toilets. That's all I'm saying. Something with toilets, yeah. Just let us know, Megan. Clear your name. Tam, I'm just happy you did not injure yourself. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm glad you're safe and well. We would have felt bad about that. But we would have had to add a disclaimer or something. Yeah. Andy Fisher says, Dear J. Lou, the podcast you did for the first show in season four last week was the best one yet. And I love looking at season four a little bit differently.

[01:18:11] I like what you said about the main theme in The Walking Dead being how do we deal with horrible situations. In this episode, the heroes are being slammed with bad news, a sudden deadly flu, a creepy animal sadist, and the walls that protect them literally caving in. I love Beth's dialogue here with Michonne. They could have got hurt helping me, Beth says. When you care about people getting hurt is kind of the package. It makes me think about the idea you discussed so well in your last podcast, protecting yourself and or being vulnerable to others.

[01:18:40] All of The Walking Dead characters explore this theme this season. Yeah, totally, Andy. Yeah, I agree with that. Megan Dively-Layman. Oh, sorry, Megan. Says from the toilet. She's not in the toilet. Can you believe that during this time the show was pulling in ratings like 14 million viewers on this episode? Wikipedia says last week's episode was the series high at 16 million.

[01:19:05] I don't think even the most popular show would pull anything like that these days because of the fragmentation of television. Absolutely. Danai does a masterful job in the scene where she breaks down holding Judith. And I like that they came up with a somewhat realistic plot with disease transmission between animals and humans. Heck, we're living in fear of avian influenza right now and whether that will be the next pandemic. Since we know that the antibiotics help in another episode or two, I think that means it's bacterial, not viral, on the show, right?

[01:19:34] I wonder how much of the next episode or two will hold up now that we are all amateur epidemiologists thanks to COVID. Stay tuned. I mean, you're not wrong, Megan. You're not wrong. All right. Now we have a call from Carly Jackson. Hi, Jason and Lucy. This is Carly in Santa Fe. And I wanted to respond to both episode one and two of season four. So, I mean, the thing that I always remember is how homey the prison looks.

[01:20:03] Like they've got their nice curtains over their door to add privacy and, you know, pumping water into the bathrooms and the growing food and having a horse barn and the pigs. And I love that stuff. I kind of wish The Walking Dead had gone more in that direction more regularly. That, like, what it looks like to rebuild without modern infrastructure and modern technology. I love that stuff.

[01:20:33] But I've had to... You kind of see it, even though they don't dwell on it, I think you kind of see it everywhere they go. You know, Alexandria with the windmill and the solar panels and farming and all that kind of stuff. But they just build it in the background and don't talk about it a lot, I think. I love the curtains as well. That moment when you hear, you know, Patrick's killing this guy and you see the curtains and they just look so beautiful and peaceful. Yeah, no.

[01:21:03] That's not what The Walking Dead is about. So, but it makes it all the more heartbreaking when stuff goes wrong. Like, the feeling of safety that the prison provides and then insecurity of, like, growing your own food. And then the wreckage that just one sick person who dies can bring to one area of the prison. I mean, I can't...

[01:21:32] It's so astounding how just, like, one zombie just destroys so many people. Yeah. And then also in episode two, it always breaks my heart when Rick has to sacrifice his pigs. I mean, on the one hand, they may have been sick already and not, they would not have been good for food.

[01:21:52] But on the other hand, like, it's like having to, like, to admit defeat that you thought you were preparing for a future and then you have to sacrifice it for an immediate need. And it's so devastating.

[01:22:07] And then the other thing I haven't really paid attention to in previous watches, but Rick's genuine fear or is it post-traumatic stress of he can't even just pick up a gun? Because that will lead him down a path that will turn himself and his son into a violent maniac.

[01:22:35] Like, just in the second episode, he's fighting Daryl. He's like, I can't go down that path. He can't even sit in on a council meeting because that will lead him down a path. It's like an addict, right? Someone, like, one drop of alcohol could send an alcoholic into a whole spiral of destruction. And I think that's really interesting. And I hadn't paid attention to that before, so I'm going to be paying attention to that in the next few episodes.

[01:23:03] I mean, he kind of accepts responsibility at the end of episode two, giving Carl and himself weapons again. And I wonder, I want to see more evidence of that fear, that terror of, like, turning into a monster. Anyway, glad to be back on the rewatch. Don't get bit. Glad you're back, Carly. Amazing, Carly. So good to hear from you. I'm thinking about what you're saying about Rick.

[01:23:31] See, I sort of read it that he didn't want to do anything because he feels like he's made bad decisions and gotten people hurt. But then again, part of, like we said, the main thing is he saw Carl was sort of losing his humanity. So I think it is about the fear of losing your humanity to the cruelty of the world and everything like that. So it's all mixed in together, maybe.

[01:24:00] It seems to be. Okay, next is Chandra Wright, who says, just finished listening to this episode of the podcast. Karen Shee added some great insights and perspectives. The discussion you guys had about solitude versus community made me think of the future episode where Jadis leaves for what we one day learn as the CRM. She writes, Gabriel, a note saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others.

[01:24:25] We see this evolution happen over the course of the show as characters, communities, and the world itself advanced through the apocalypse. The early years were pure learning and survival. Having a small, lean, agile crew was the best defense. How many times did we see examples of large camps, even military installations that had been totally wiped out? As needs changed, it became more and more beneficial to slow down, build relationships, develop alliances, and communities to ensure long-term survival.

[01:24:52] Short bouts of isolation seem to prove restorative. It's the long periods of total isolation that unravel people. Maybe the danger is in recognizing that tipping point for yourself. As always, I enjoyed listening to the cast. It's always given me something to think about in a different way than I have before. Thanks, Chandra. I love that. That got me thinking about how, you know, I've said all throughout The Walking Dead that I like how it's a series about the fall of civilization.

[01:25:20] And then at the end with the Commonwealth, they came back to civilization. And then there were questions about whether you'd even want to go back to that big of a thing and have all the classism and wealth disparity. And what this made me think of, Chandra's message here, is that also in that big of a city, if you can call the Commonwealth a city, people, and in our world too, you can feel more isolated than you do in a smaller community. Yeah. You know?

[01:25:50] You're in your little role in your day-to-day grind and people feel lonely. Whereas if you're in like a little small town or something, then there's more of a group vibe, like we're all in this together vibe. It's much more pronounced sometimes to be alone in a crowd than to be alone alone, you know? Yeah. All right. Jennifer McGinley says, I'm ahead in my rewatch, but stop by to tell you I just found out Dr. S's real name, Dr. Caleb Subramanian. That's quite interesting, isn't it? No wonder they called him Dr. S.

[01:26:20] These episodes are great, apart from conversations between Beth and Maggie from outside and inside. Is that this episode? I think that's a couple ahead. We all got jobs to do. We don't get to cry anymore. Shut the fuck up, Beth. Oh no, STFU Beth. And by STFU, I definitely don't mean start singing again. Oh my god, I wonder who killed Karen the thingamabob. Must have been Mad Lizzie, eh? Seeing as she feeds rats to Zeds. Yeah, it was Lizzie, I think. I think, oh, yeah, it was Lizzie.

[01:26:46] I think this is the one where it's all mayhem inside the prison and Daryl, never looking better, scoops that wee kid up out of harm's way. Aww. Aww. Remember they tried to make us think Patrick gave Daryl the virus, asking to shake his hand last episode, and there was a big deal of Daryl licking his fingers before going in for the hand? Good to rewatch and not be terrified that Daryl Dixon was going to get ill. Also, Daryl licked his fingers. Yeah, I know. It was last episode, but I wasn't around. Sound iconic leg trembling Daryl shot. Schwing!

[01:27:17] I mean, no notes. 10 out of 10. No, yeah, I'd be disappointed if you hadn't sent that in because it was one episode late. I did think when he scooped the kid up, I was like, yeah, this is, people like this. I don't hate it myself, but you know, people really like this. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Oh, first of all, I just want to say Karen had some great things to say on the last podcast, how she went into depth about topics in the episode and the season in general.

[01:27:46] I found it really interesting. So thank you, Karen. Tyrese singing at the start of the episode was something I totally forgot about. A lot less awkward than Daryl singing, I think. Tyrese wins in a sing-off. Yeah, he's got it going on. Oh, yeah. Of course, no one beats Beth. I remember when first seeing this episode, I couldn't make up my mind and I still can't make my mind now knowing Lizzie's arc if Carol should have let Lizzie prevent her father from coming back.

[01:28:13] I think if I was in the same situation in the ZA and the child asked, I might let them depending on the age of the child. But then this raises another question. How old should a child be during a ZA to be allowed to prevent someone from coming back if they don't need to be the ones to do it? I love that The Walking Dead brings out these debates in me because nothing is really black and white.

[01:28:34] I would let my older son do it because I think it's a skill that you might need practice at because you might have to do it. So, and I think he's the kind of kid that I would trust to be able to do it. The low-key narrative you have where Bodhi is a bit of a radge-badge really makes me laugh. It's like, yeah, I'd give you a cool gun. I wouldn't give Bodhi a gun. Yeah. Just like... He's more of a Lizzie, you know. Yeah.

[01:29:04] You're like, he's just... He's younger too. He's not quite... He's going to turn eight in like a week here. Oh, well, you can get a gun then, right? No, don't put that in. Oh, my God. I ordered it off Amazon. No, I'm just kidding. Excellent. What did I order him? He wants an electric toothbrush, so I got him a Spider-Man electric toothbrush. That's a very wholesome present. He's going to love it. You guys were talking about how Carl has come back from what he's done, and this is really evident in this episode.

[01:29:32] He seems really upset when explaining to Rick that he had to use a gun. The scene where Michonne gives in and cuddles Judith hits completely different now, knowing how they turn out. Yeah, it adds to it. We get a shirtless Rick in the end of the episode. I can't wait for Renee's reaction. Anyway, thanks, guys. Bye. We don't have a call from Renee, and I think that's my fault because I accidentally put up the post too late. Or Renee was so enchanted that she keeled over and has yet to emerge.

[01:30:02] Wordless. Geachless. Andrea Abarka says... Oh, you missed the end, Jason. I said bye. Oh, did you? Did you say bye? Andrea Abarka says... Hi, Jason and Lucy. You cannot imagine my excitement when I saw that my favourite dynamic duo was back. Yay. Happy 2025. I think I can still say that two weeks in. I was so excited I might have done a little dance. So, since I didn't get to write in for last week's, I hope it's okay if I make some comments.

[01:30:32] Season four is one of my favourite seasons as well. To start, I love Daryl the way Renee loves Rick. And in this season, Daryl was particularly, well, hot. But I also love his playful banter, especially with Carol. It's nice to see the character have playful moments, and I remember thinking that the first time I saw it. The store was just badass. The zombies, the action. I think it's one of my favourite scenes in the whole series. The Irish zombie lady also creeped me out. I am in complete agreement with everyone.

[01:30:59] As for this week's episode, Infected, also a great one. Oddly enough, I remember doing a rewatch of this episode during COVID and thinking, well, how scary is that? But the attack from within was so well done, starting with Patrick and moving on to the others, just when they thought they were safe. I feel like all the characters are so rich and deep in these episodes, and I'm looking forward to Herschel's shining moment. Anyway, just really happy to be back with this community. Love you guys. Love you too, Andrea. Thanks, Andrea. Thank you. That was a really nice message.

[01:31:29] All right. And one more call, and it's from Robin Springer. Hey, y'all. It's me, Robin. I almost said bonjour, mes amis. It's been such a long time since I managed to make the deadline. I missed it last week. It was so interesting to watch these two episodes through the lens of our post-COVID-raised consciousness.

[01:31:49] You know, when everybody was doing all the things that we knew to do all along but never did or didn't take too terribly seriously, you know, I'm watching it and I'm thinking, oh, my God. And Daryl licks his fingers and then shakes Patrick's hand, who was probably more contagious then than he had been at any other time right before he came down with it. But, you know, of course, nobody knew. And then Patrick exposing all the kids at story time. Thankfully, he didn't yak all over everyone.

[01:32:18] And then in the shower, reeling around in there after he was sick and he's spitting and he's doing all this stuff. And then Karen goes in and she's in there, you know, touching everything. Karen and Tyrese are, you know, down by the fence and they're kissing. And she's got walker blood all over her chest and, you know, face. And they're just, you know, kissing and the walkers are there.

[01:32:48] Rick comes out. And after everything happens in the cell block with, you know, the outbreak of sickness and the walkers killing everyone and says to Carl, you know, stay back. Carl takes two steps back. Then later on, they're in the pigsty. Carl wants to go in. Rick says, no, no, not this time. And then two minutes later, they're right next to each other talking about, you know, Carol and her teaching the kids how to kill and how to use knives.

[01:33:18] Daryl's down there digging graves. He took Herschel's advice and, you know, was wearing gloves and a mask. But as soon as Rick comes around, he pulls his mask down. Of course, I don't think a bandana really qualifies as a mask. But, you know, he's cool. He's got to be cool. So then Rick's on the back of the truck with these pigs, which I think probably what they have is swine flu, which is zoonotic and jumps from, you know, pigs to humans pretty easily. He's getting pig blood all over himself.

[01:33:48] You know, it's just it's one thing right after the other. I just kept going, oh, my God. But I don't think Rick actually even gets sick, does he? I think everybody else does, but I don't think he does. And I don't think Michonne does either. And her scene with Judith. Oh, my God. No matter how many times I see that when she cries, it's just, oh, it's too much. But, you know, then there's Tyrese being such a whiny little bitch.

[01:34:18] Oh, I don't like to kill the walkers on the fence. OK, go out and kill the walkers. He comes back. Oh, I don't really like to kill the walkers out there either. Karen's sitting on his lap and they're making out and everything. And he's just like, oh, I don't know what to do. She doesn't strike me as the kind of girl that would really dig that. But, you know, whatever. They seem to be in love. Well, oh, well. And then there's an interesting little foreshadowing that happens.

[01:34:46] That, of course, the first time you see it, you don't think about it because you don't know. But when Carol and Mika and Lizzie are down by the fence and she's talking to the girls, talking to Lizzie about how, you know, the walkers are not humans. They're not they're not friends.

[01:35:05] She picks a flower, a little yellow flower and tucks it behind Lizzie's ear, which is kind of as you get to know more about it and you see it again, you realize, oh, my goodness, that's that's a big foreshadowing. Also, here's the other thing. Do we know at that point that Rick grew up on a farm?

[01:35:22] Because if he did, he was raised right and was very, very polite to Herschel when Herschel was telling him about how when you break off the stalks of the tomato plant, you can put it in the ground and the little hairs will will make roots, which I grew up on a farm. So I knew that. So I'm guessing that Rick was just being nice to him because he should have known that. But anyway, nothing insightful to say about the Irish lady.

[01:35:50] You know, just like I said, I was watching it through this this really weird COVID lens. But anyway, we'll talk again soon. Hopefully I'll make the cutoff again. Happy New Year to all of you. 2025 is going to be our year. Happy New Year. Talk to you soon. Bye. Interesting about Tyrese being this sensitive type. Who doesn't want to kill the zombies. I actually think it's really interesting to have a character like that. Yeah.

[01:36:19] One thing, just because it's different, you know, not everyone is just a gung ho badass. I agree. I could. I do understand where Robin's coming from. Like, come on, we need you to step up and do what needs to be done here. But I just think it's interesting to have a character like that. And in his case in particular, I know there's that scene and I, my memory is hazy on all the details, but they wanted to honor the scene in the comic where he just took out a horde of Zeds with a hammer. Right. Yeah. And that's coming up. And I remember it being really emotional.

[01:36:49] And so my armchair psychology read on him is that he knows he has this capacity for like just power and rage and violence, but maybe he's like trying not to, um, trying to keep it underneath. He's holding it back. Yeah. Something like that. I have a, one of my cats I always think of as being a bit like Tyrese. He's like this kind of, he's like a big guy and I think he could be a good hunter and a good killer if he wanted to be, but he doesn't want to be. He just wants to show up.

[01:37:18] He just wants to kind of look at me and be like, I don't want to go outside. You're a predator. Come on. Literally. I let him go outside and he runs back in like, I don't like it outside. And I'm like, okay. So. All right. Good thing I'm here to take care of you. Right. All right. That is our show. Episode six, 19. Thanks everybody for listening. Appreciate you guys. Next episode, walking dead season four, episode three isolation.

[01:37:48] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcast.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts. We're going strong with squid game cast. That's the one that's most on my mind lately. I listened to the yellow jackets. It's WTF breakdown of the season. Oh yeah. It was fun to spend some time with those ladies again. I forgot about that one because I didn't want to listen because I don't want to watch the trailer.

[01:38:17] I was like, Jason will be on this one because he won't have watched the trailer. And it was great. But I've heard some, yeah, good compliments about it. So I'm glad you enjoyed it too. And yeah, I am excited for that show to come back. For anybody who like follows all of our stuff, there's a few shows coming right at the same time. There's a yellow jackets, the last five of Cobra Kai series finale and white Lotus. Welcome to the white Lotus.

[01:38:44] And also we'll be doing the rewatch still and moving into the last of us. So I can't do, I've realized I can't do four at once. So I'm going to stay off of yellow jackets for at least half of it until I sometime freeze up and then come in at the end. But it'll just be fun to be a fan. But anyway, whatever. I'm excited to have all the shows coming back in the white Lotus, especially that's going to be me and Randy and Jenny again. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah. It'd be great. It's going to be really fun.

[01:39:11] In Thailand, the third season's in Thailand. Wonderful. This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Ginger Morris, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you so much to Ginger. You get ad free episodes of all these, as does anyone who pledges any amount and you get little perks and things.

[01:39:34] And I'm about to interview Madeline Joe, who is an artist up in Seattle or Portland. I forget which I think Seattle. So, and I'm so curious about the work that she does and just talking to her about all that. So yeah, we do those listener chit chats every once in a while just to get to know the listeners a little bit better. Oh my God, you should interview me sometime. I don't actually know. You interview me every week. So we never talk about your personal life. I was thinking I should do it with Penny too.

[01:40:03] We podcast so much, but I don't know a lot about her life. Yeah. That's because Penny's a woman of mystery. She's not really. She's just awesome. But yeah, she's awesome. There's a lot of people who'd be fun to talk to. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit anymore. Jenny Kuo.