620: "Isolation" (TWD S4E3 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh... Oh... That's the drug! If you go in there, you're gonna get sick. You're gonna put your- We don't know that. What we do know is that these people's symptoms need to be controlled. Herschel, please, we can wait. Listen, dammit. You step outside, you risk your life. You take a drink of water, you risk your life. And nowadays, you breathe, and you risk your life.

[00:00:30] Every moment now. You don't have a choice. The only thing you can choose is what you're risking it for. Now, I can make these people feel better, and hang on a little bit longer. I can save lives. That's reason enough to risk mine. And you know that.

[00:01:24] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Penny. Yeah! Yay! And this is the cast of us, episode 620. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, season 4, episode 3, isolation. But we're not in isolation. We have Penny! I am here. Yeah, if Zoom counts. Yay! Welcome, Penny. It's your first time guesting on the rewatch. But people listening, I hope most or all of you have heard Penny, because she's hosted

[00:01:53] and guested on many podcastica shows. She's wonderful. And I was wondering, instead of telling us about all of them, maybe you could tell us a little about the one you'd consider your baby, which I think I know which one that is. Oh, the one that's my baby is definitely still slaying. Oh. Yeah. Which is a Buffyverse podcast. We are doing a rewatch of the entire series and the spinoff Angel. We're at season 4 right now of Buffy and season 1 of Angel.

[00:02:22] And it's not just a podcast about the show. We also talk a lot about just sort of 90s pop culture and what was going on at the time that the show was airing. You always have lists of what movies were at the top of the charts and all that kind of stuff. It's really fun. Box office, like bestselling books, what was in the news.

[00:02:45] And then we really get into a lot of topics about the patriarchy and smashing the patriarchy. And we also have a ton of fun. There's a lot of laughing on that podcast. Yay. That's great. Which I don't edit out. Good. What is it about... Well, I'll also mention, I'll bring this up again at the end, but again, it would be too much to go into all the podcasting that Penny's done.

[00:03:12] But I do want to mention that Penny and Daphne and Wendy and hopefully I will be podcasting about Yellow Jackets season 3 coming up in February. I think it premieres on Valentine's Day. Yes, it does. So that's the next big one. I'm going to have to skip out on the first half of that, but I'm hoping to jump in by the end. So what is it about this episode, season 4, episode 3, isolation that made you want to come on for it in particular?

[00:03:41] Overall, season 4 is probably my favorite season, except for maybe 10. Interesting. I'm right there with you. Yeah. I love Herschel and I think this episode is... This one and I said either three or five of this season, right, are both episodes that Herschel really shines in. He has a lot of time on screen and a lot to say. And so I wanted a heavy Herschel episode. I love the flu storyline.

[00:04:10] I think it's so accurate as to what would happen in a situation like this when people are living in close quarters and hygiene is less than stellar. Like you are going to get some kind of bug eventually. Hygiene is awful. Yeah. It's really bad. It's pretty gross if I think about it too much. Honestly, the zombies gross me out less than sometimes when I think about the hygiene situation. Yeah.

[00:04:38] And that, well, we'll get into it, but that freaking room where all the sick people go, you don't want to go in there. No, that was a nightmare. It's like coughing up blood and turning into zombies. It reminded me of in Parks and Recreation, the floor in the Pawnee Town Hall where like all the weirdos are. Is it like floor 10 or something? And you go up and like the lights are flickering. Oh yeah. And yeah, it's like, oh no. It's like entering another dimension. Yeah. Or like, what was it in Being John Malkovich?

[00:05:07] Floor like seven and a half. Yeah. The weird place. Yeah. Lucy, would you like to read the plot summary? I would love to. Tensions rise as the prison group deals with a deadly flu outbreak. Tyrese is devastated after finding Karen and David's burned bodies leading to a fight with Rick. Daryl, Michonne, Tyrese and Bob head out to find medicine, but encounter a massive walker herd while listening to the single Carl Popper. No, I've made that bit up. That bit's not in it.

[00:05:34] Meanwhile, Herschel risks his safety to care for the sick. The episode ends with Carol confessing to Rick that she killed Karen and David to stop the illness from spreading. Bum, bum, bum. So how was it to revisit this one, Lucy? Again, like I think we're going to have to in the off season do an episode about the bad lip reading videos because there's so many moments in this one in particular where I was like, I can't take this seriously. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Especially the Tyrese getting upset at Rick. Yeah.

[00:06:05] I just like, man, he took my apple when I was hungry. And now I talk about dolphins when the subject matter was apples. And the girl's like, I get it, man. A dolphin ain't the same as an apple. For me, it's when Sasha comes out the building. Because I couldn't remember what the line is in bad lip reading, but she comes out like bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh. And in bad lip reading it's something like, wanna fool around? Ew. Oh ho. So it's so good. So it's so good.

[00:06:31] And of course when they're tuning the radio and that is the beginning of the Karl Poppa video, which I did watch this evening because I was like, I'm tempted. I watched that shit over and over again. I swear. So good. Oh, that's right. You guys swear on this podcast. That's awesome. Yeah, we do. Yeah, it's fine. I really enjoyed this episode on rewatch. Yeah, I really, I'm honestly Penny, everything you said. Weirdly, I wasn't a Herschel fan before kind of prison era Herschel, but I think this is

[00:06:59] like peak best Herschel for me is this arc in season four. And he won't be around much longer either. I did write, I wrote, do you know what? I think Herschel, all things considered gets a good ending insofar as he gets this arc right before he dies. Oh yeah. It's awesome. Like it's hard to say, oh yeah, he got his head chopped off. That's awesome. But if you're going to die, it's a great death on The Walking Dead too. Oh yeah.

[00:07:25] Not just that he had this arc, but I mean, I would, if I was on the show, I would want to go out. Yeah. I wouldn't want to be like Beth, how Beth went out or something like that. By scissors or toenail clippers or something. Yeah. That was so dumb. Right. I loved it. Fantastic. Super tense. I also, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it feels like, you know, one of the biggest strengths, probably the biggest strength of The Walking Dead, it turns out is the character. And how much we love them.

[00:07:53] And I think they're really realizing that the writers and maybe Gimple as showrunner, maybe he's part of that. But now they know that we like it when people step up to the plate in inspiring ways and they're really leaning into that. And it works, man. Like Herschel, even Beth, you know, in this, and they're, they're handling Tyrese and Sasha much better than they did last season. So, um, I, I think that's part of it. Funny you should say that because guess who wrote this episode?

[00:08:23] Kirkman! Kirkman! Yeah. Which surprises me because I don't remember his episodes as being particularly standout, amazing episodes. Um, but watching this, I thought it would be Angela Kang or something, but that's really great. Uh, I looked up all the episodes that he wrote because he was in the series in the writer's room. Maybe this was his last season. I can't really find a definitive statement of when he left, but I think he left just because

[00:08:53] he had so much going on and he just went into more of an executive producer role and did have input into the course of the series up until the end. But I don't think he was in the writer's room anymore and writing episodes. But anyway, he wrote Vatos season one, episode four, which was okay. Right. He wrote with our death bay season two, episode one, what lies ahead, just fine. He wrote season two, episode 13 beside the dying fire with Glenn Mazzara. That, that was a pretty good one, but that was more about the action.

[00:09:22] I think than the writing, um, season three, episode eight made to suffer. I don't even remember what happened. The mid season finale in season three. Oh man, we only did it like last week. I still remember. I'm like, stuff with the governor. Uh, and so this is really, I would say, yeah, it's his best one so far. And then he did two more season four, episode nine after and season five, episode two strangers. So we'll have to see, uh, there, but anyway, like after and strangers actually there. Yeah.

[00:09:53] So maybe he's just finding his footing and then he stopped doing it. All right. So let's get into our points. Penny, would you like to go first? Sure. I wanted to talk about, um, I list went back and listen to y'all's original. Oh, although it wasn't Lucy, it was Karen coverage of this episode from however many years ago that was.

[00:10:18] And it was so fascinating because first of all, there was a lot of debate about whether or not Carol actually was the killer of Karen and David or whether she was covering for Lucy, uh, Lizzie, Lizzie and Mika. Yeah. I thought was hilarious. Let me tell you something about that.

[00:10:38] This episode was a formative episode for me as a podcaster because we had a guest on my friend, Lisa, and, um, we were all here at my house together. And yeah, Karen didn't believe that Carol actually killed Karen and David. She thought she was covering for someone. And I kind of scoffed at that.

[00:11:00] And I think Lisa just following my lead kind of laughed and Karen really, uh, was upset by it to the point where, yeah, I know. And I had to stop the recording and be like, I'm sorry. Oh, I didn't mean to shut you down, you know? And so then after that, I, I know I don't always live up to this, but I decided after that to really make a point to be respectful of differing opinions, which is now actually one of the things I'm most proud of the podcast to go for.

[00:11:28] It kind of started here in this episode, um, which is, it can be a challenge because I also want to be really honest about my own opinions, but you know, just be okay with people having other opinions. Anyway, um, man, I felt so bad about that. And, and when I, I was like, oh man, here's the podcast room, but I think I was able to edit it. So you can't really tell how bad it was. Oh yeah. You did a great editing job. Cause I didn't really, I didn't sense any like emotional issues going on.

[00:11:54] I just thought it was an interesting debate and there was talk of, uh, you know, a bet and beers and stuff like that. Uh, I just thought it was so funny because it's so hard to remember a time before Carol was a known badass. Yeah. And I was, I was really into Carol as a character because I, I feel a kinship with her and Daryl both.

[00:12:18] I have my own childhood abuse and having survived that, I see so many traits in them that I identify with. I mean, I, I can't use a crossbow, but I definitely have a calm in a crisis thing that happens. And a, um, uh, like just get what needs to get done, done and, and do it. Like hold your nose and do what you need to do that. I do sometimes. And that's very Carol.

[00:12:48] Yeah. And, um, her actually murdering someone and to someone's when there was no reason to, because they were really, really quarantined. Like they were really separated from everyone else. So killing them like that was totally unnecessary in my opinion, but it shocked me to my core and made me think at the time when I first watched it, I was like, am I capable of that? Like I'm capable of a lot of things.

[00:13:15] Could I murder two people if I thought it was the only way to protect other people? Like I, I don't think I could do it, but I had to, I had to give it a lot of thought. Like think about like all the pressures of the situation and what she'd been through and whether or not I could also do that. I, it's, it's, uh, upsetting. We don't really know. Right. We're not in those situations. I think it's hard for anyone to know what they're capable of. Yeah.

[00:13:42] I asked the same question of myself a lot covering yellow jackets because I'm like, God, these women have been through some stuff and like, I don't know if I would, how I would respond. And would I be a Shauna? Would I be a Jackie? Like, I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting to think about, but we're going to have to, um, have a podcast together retreat where we hire some people to chase after us and try to kill us or something. And then we'll see, we'll see what we're made of.

[00:14:11] There's definitely islands we could go to for that. I think. Squid game. We'll all enter the squid game. Yeah. That sounds like it could end really badly. I know. Yeah. Well, yeah, let's not do it. Let's just think about it. Okay. Well, I want to kind of riff off that and talk about Carol a little bit because Jason and I spoke last week about, um, not so much whether Carol was right or wrong, but how wrong she was and how forgivable it was and the things we do.

[00:14:39] And what I thought was really interesting in this episode, and it sort of started with the Rick, Tyrese and Daryl confrontation where that scene really escalates from like the, all four of the actors in that scene are so good. Like it really goes from like zero to 60 in a matter of minutes. And it's really interesting to watch Carol in that scene, knowing what we do now about what she's done. The whole episode. It's interesting to watch her reactions to things about that scene in particular.

[00:15:08] And watching Rick kind of figure it out. And the one thing I will say for Carol, and I think Jason will come for me for this, which I think is fair enough. Um, and I'm, I'm not trying to neg in the situation here, but a lot of Carol in this episode is someone who is very much regretting what they've done. I think she's remorseful. I think she is disturbed by what she's done and upset about it.

[00:15:33] And she's trying to atone for it by making really fucking stupid decisions and trying to like get more water for people and help people get into the. She's not in a good headspace. Cell block. She's not in a good headspace. And I would say you couldn't watch this episode and say that she doesn't feel bad about what she did.

[00:15:53] And that said, when Rick confronts her about it and she sort of says, yeah, it's, I just find that ending to the episode fascinating because it's so just matter of fact. I remember at the time watching the show being like, holy shit, they just revealed it. It's not going to be this big dramatic thing. He literally just asked her. And I remember somehow respecting Carol Moore for just saying yes and owning it. Yeah. But the, the things with like the water, but where she's throwing it over and she's not thinking clearly.

[00:16:22] And she's freaking out. And the way that kind of reveals to Rick that that's what she's been doing. And that's that what she has done. The way she's jumpy when Tyrese comes to her and Tyrese really part of me was like, does Tyrese know? Cause he's laying on thick with the, like, you look after people. People are safe with you. He doesn't know. But imagine the reading where Tyrese is a proper sociopath and is like, he wouldn't leave her with his sister. No, he wouldn't. He wouldn't.

[00:16:48] But it is, it really is like watching someone on the brink, I think. And I think Melissa McBride does an amazing job of playing that as a kind of woman on the edge. And I loved when Rick said that was a stupid thing you did. And like, what does he mean? Does he mean the water or does he mean Karen and David? I know he means the water, but it's, it's just something.

[00:17:13] And I think Rick doesn't want it to be true that it's Carol, but you see it come to him in this episode that it's, it's an obvious one. But yeah, I'm not saying it makes what she did. Okay. But I'm saying one of the debates we have time and time again about deplorable behavior on the show is the idea of remorse and regretting what you did, which I'm still not convinced we ever really get with Negan. And with Carol, you get it in this episode. She is, her actions betray that she's upset by what she's done.

[00:17:41] I think her answer to Rick at the very end of the episode is relief. She's like, yes. All right. Yeah. Yeah. He knows. Don't have to hide it anymore. It's out there. Thank God. God. She's also got this very deep understanding of who Rick is as a person. And I think she knows he's not going to fly off the handle.

[00:18:08] She can see that he's in like investigative mode and that in that moment, there's no danger. There's no reason to be defensive. Like his tone where he's like, did you murder or kill Karen and David is the most comforting way to ask someone that question so that they feel like there's space to answer honestly. Right. He was at a physical distance from her. His body language was calm. Did you just say that?

[00:18:35] He said, would you do anything to protect the people here? Yeah. He asked her that first. So that's sort of framing it in a way that I understand that you're where your heart is, is for the groups trying to save the most people here, which is the same as him. Like he's trying to be understanding or at least maybe doing the cop thing and diffuse the tension to get the outcome that he wants. And he says that to Tyrese as well. He's like the person who did this may have done this to stop it spreading.

[00:19:05] Yeah. And Tyrese rightly says, well, it fucking didn't. You know, like, yeah. Now my sister has it. Well, yeah. So I don't know if I agree that she feels remorseful. I think maybe I think she definitely feels bad at the impact on Tyrese. You know, I think she feels distressed by that. But I also think there's a pretty good chance that she's like, yeah, with the information I had at the time, I did the right thing.

[00:19:30] And that might be why she answers the way she does with Rick when he says, you know, you would you do anything to help the people here? Yes. And did you kill them? Yes. So it's like, it didn't work. So, you know, then more people got sick. I kind of wondered what was going on in her head then. Oh, do I need to kill them too? I don't think it's going to work. It's out of control. So she's like, Rick, I'm glad you I'm glad you find me out because I didn't know how I was going to kill them all. I just didn't know. Definitely need a two person team. You go in the back entrance. Yeah.

[00:20:00] Do you have any gasoline? I do think that she started to really show signs of being upset when the first like sick person like came out of the prison, like coughing and hacking and she saw them. That's when when her sort of like chill, like lost itself where she was just like, it didn't work. I did that and it didn't work. And now I'm a murderer and it wasn't worth it. Yeah. I think she's shocked by what she's done as well. Yeah.

[00:20:29] I mean, we've all like even with COVID, I don't want to get too deep into a discussion here, but I think I definitely feel like the decisions that were made in hindsight weren't all the best, but that they were the best decisions with the information that people had. And then you change as you go along. But if they had said, let's start murdering everyone. No, I don't think I would have been on board with that. Yeah. Yeah. I hope not, Jason, because I like you. Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:58] And you would have to not like me if I did that. Right. Even though I'm your friend. And that kind of goes into my first point. When someone you like does something very bad. And I've been thinking about our conversation, too, and just trying to examine why it's so important for me to try to judge people equally, even when I have a bias towards someone. Because I do like Carol. I like her character.

[00:21:24] I'm glad she stayed in the show and wasn't banished forever because I want to see her on that. But I have to separate that out and look at this situation in and of itself. And I think it's because in podcaster mode, I want to find the truth about these situations where the writers are coming from, where when they really understand human behavior. I love that because I want to examine it and get human truth out of it. I think that's what the writers are giving us. And I want to get it.

[00:21:53] And so if I just like rationalize that, oh, what this person did was okay because I like them, then that's kind of bullshit. You know, if you're saying I don't care what they did because I like them, then that's I can appreciate that at least because that's the truth. But what I don't like, and I'm not saying either of you are doing this, but I've seen it happen where somebody does something and they're a beloved character. So people rationalize why it's okay.

[00:22:20] And then somebody else can do the exact same thing and they'll say why that's wrong. And I'm like, well, then all that is just bullshit. Just say you like them or you don't, you know, and that's why you don't care when they do the bad things. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. I think a lot of people will rationalize bad behavior by someone that they like or admire or who is on their team. Right? Like I picked a side. So whatever my side does, I'm fine with it. Absolutely.

[00:22:47] And there's also a part of me independently of wanting to find truth as a podcaster that just one of my values is fairness. And I want us all to be treated equally and judged equally. And we've all seen situations recently where people have gotten away with things that we didn't think was fair, you know, and I like fairness. And so that's another thing that's probably always on my mind in situations like this. Like Carol murdered two innocent people.

[00:23:14] So even if I was there and her friend, that's a big deal. You know, if she stole something or, you know, lied and got caused some relationship to break up or something, that's serious. But I'd still support her as a friend. But if she murdered somebody that I cared about that was innocent, I'd have to draw the line there with her. I'd have to. We're full spoilers, right? Yeah, full spoilers. Yeah. So, you know, fast forward to what is it?

[00:23:41] Season six where Carol is in Alexandria and she's starting to kind of crumble from the weight of all these things that she's done. And she's counting up all. You know, she has like that notebook. She's counting all the people that she's murdered. And I draw a huge moral line between Karen and David and like the people at Terminus. Absolutely. Like those people at Terminus so had it coming. Yeah.

[00:24:08] And it was the only option to rescue her friends. It's not like she went in and killed them for no good reason and then left, right? Yeah. No question. She was rescuing people. Yeah. The fact that she put them all on one list together was interesting to me at the time. I was like, does she equate those? Does she think all human killing is bad? Because I think cannibals are sort of the one group where I'm like, have at it. Yeah.

[00:24:35] Kill someone because they're sneezing and then someone else because they were about to eat you. They're a little different. Yeah. If they're sneezing and they look hungry, is that a great area? They're a cannibal, but they've also got the flu. Oh, then you double, then you do double kill them. Yeah, double kill. You double kill them. Double kill. I did, like, I thought it was really interesting to see how she acted at the council meeting. Herschel's like, we need to keep sick people in cell block A like we tried to do with Karen and David.

[00:25:05] And Daryl's like, what the hell are we going to do about that? And Carol's like, oh, we'll ask Rick to look into it, try to make a timeline of who was where when. And I'll do that part, right? I'll question everyone. Don't worry. I've got it. That's what I imagined her saying. But she wants to step up and help to throw suspicion off of herself. And maybe there's a part of her that wants to be found out, too, like you're saying, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I think mostly in that conversation, she's so practical. She's like, we got to talk about this.

[00:25:34] Like, what are we doing to deal with this situation? The guilt or innocence of somebody for that is a, you know, that can sit, that can wait a minute. Right? Like the medication and the trip to pet college. That's all super urgent. Yeah. I agree with her about that. Yeah. I mean, later when Tyrese is arguing with Rick about why aren't you doing something about this? It seems like murder's okay around here. And Rick says, no, but we just need to save these lives.

[00:26:04] And I think Rick's right, right? Yeah. People have hours to live. But then Rick does go ahead and look into it anyway. But yeah. Also, an investigation isn't necessarily like super public and loud. Like you don't see somebody investigating. That's going to spoil the investigation. They need to be quiet. They need to look at things carefully and calmly. They can't be like, everybody stand in a line in front of me and I'm going to question you together.

[00:26:33] Like all of that drama, all this urgency that Tyrese is complaining that he doesn't see would all be counterproductive to actually figuring out who killed Karen and David. And I really love seeing Rick as like a detective in this episode. Maybe he's using some of his police skills. I don't know if the type of officer he was translates, but it was really fun and cool to see him at the crime scene looking at the bloody handprint and stuff.

[00:26:59] And then to deduce that she killed Karen and David because she was out trying to fix that hose, even though they'd agreed to do it the next day. And that she was teaching the kids how to use weapons. So he's like, yeah, she's just been like taking matters into her own hands, even when we agreed not to. So I think she did the same thing here. He'd already figured out that maybe somebody did it to try to prevent the spread of the sickness.

[00:27:25] Though he really figured everything out here in a way that I don't know if he always does, but he's super smart in this one that Kirkman wrote. Excellent profiling. Yeah. Mind hunter. Present edition. Carol Pelletier edition. Yeah. All right. Who's next? I am. Yeah. So I want to talk about Herschel and just like love on Herschel a little bit and Scott Wilson a whole lot.

[00:27:55] And the whole vibe that he gives off in this whole season and really a lot in season three and in season two is this gentleness and this calm, paced delivery. He's not much of a yeller. It's very rare that he loses his temper. And even when we saw him drinking in that bar when he did fall off the wagon, he was still like Herschel.

[00:28:23] He wasn't like mean or angry or anything. I know in the comics that Herschel is not like a wise sweet pie. Yeah. Yeah. But when COVID started and, you know, it was when it was like really, really scary the summer of 2020, I, you know, I was having anxiety like everybody else. And I was like, God, I wish I had my own Herschel. So I bought season four Herschel action figure. Here, I'll show it to you guys.

[00:28:53] He's funky. I have put him in this rainbow shirt that came with some other toy. I don't know. I love it. This Herschel, he's in, he's got a bandana over his face. It's like fully flu Herschel, but it came with a separate second head that is zombie Herschel. No, that's just, that's just on the nose. Yeah. It's super creepy.

[00:29:19] And this was my first action figure, but I've, I've bought several since then. And a lot of them come with extra hands or extra heads and stuff like the angel vampire one. He's got a human face and a vampire face. Amazing. And I have this little plastic bin where I put all these extra things. And it's like, I'm an action figure serial killer, like saving little trophies from, there's like heads and hands. You need like tiny aquariums that you could stick them in. Oh my God. That would be amazing.

[00:29:48] It's so creepy. Every time I look at that little plastic bin, I'm like, I look, it just looks like a serial killer who was really tiny has been here. We did a couple of interviews with Scott Wilson and he was a pleasure always. And I, you know, met him several times at Walker Stalker. He, he, he would give me props sometimes in a way that felt like Herschel was talking to me, you know? Oh my God. I would love that. That's so good.

[00:30:18] But anyway, I'll put those links to the interviews in the show notes if anyone wants to go back because me and Karen had a great time talking to him. He's such a fantastic actor. He has so much presence on screen. And I love the relationships that we see in here. There's Herschel on the council and that whole funny, like, I'll go with you. Oh, I'll draw you a map scene. That was so good. So fantastic. And then I love the interactions with Carl. First in the hallway when Carl's like, I can't let you go outside.

[00:30:48] And Herschel's like, let me? And then Carl is amazing in that scene too, where he like gets thoughtful and he's like, yeah, I can't stop you, but I'm going to go with you. So wasn't the bad lip reading part of that really funny too? I think so. I can't remember, but that's what I remember the most about that scene. Oh God. Was laughing because of what they said. I got to go back and watch it again. And then out in the woods. Yeah, that was great. I love the scene in the woods and how they're talking about like peacefulness and Carl.

[00:31:17] It ends on Carl sort of quietly saying, can't be like that all the time, which is sort of Carl's theme, right? Like we always have to be ready for it to go bad again. When everyone else is trying to live their lives and he is right. He's completely right. I like that scene because we saw, you know, the scene with Herschel and Carl where he kills the little kid and he seems cold about it or even proud and Herschel's horrified.

[00:31:43] And then Herschel, so to have another scene with them where he's, Carl has a gun is a great followup. And Herschel, I think he's nervous about it, but he's saying you've grown a lot since then. You have an air of responsibility about you. And I think he's halfway going, just trying to encourage him to actually live up to that where he's not exactly sure. Yeah. I think it is. I mean, I think Carl is coming from a pretty good place where he did benefit from that time

[00:32:13] with his dad farming. And now he's looking at things. I already said this last week, but just from a little bit more mature perspective, like I'll do what I have to do, but I won't be a little bloodthirsty psycho about it. Yeah. He is more mature and reasonable. And that scene in the woods between the two of them is almost like a coming of age moment for Carl where he enters this relationship as a more adult participant, more of a peer to Herschel, even though they're hugely different in age.

[00:32:42] And Herschel shows him and gives him a lot of respect. And the way that like when Carl aims at the walker, the bear trap walker, and Herschel's like, you don't have to. And Carl sort of takes that on board. And then it's like, yeah, you're right. And they leave. And it just feels like this amazing connection between the two of them. And I realized, I'm pretty sure this is the last time they share screen time ever.

[00:33:10] It's a lot of kind of goodbyes to Herschel subtly in this episode, I think. Yeah. Although we've got a few more episodes before he dies. Two of those are governor episodes. And yeah. Yeah. It's really sad. What is this? Number three? We've got like three more with him. Yeah. And then, of course, the big speech that he gives to Maggie and Rick. You know, you go outside, you risk your life. You breathe, you risk your life. At least I can choose what I'm risking it for. I love that speech.

[00:33:39] I think it's one of the most heroic and also realistic ways to look at horrible situations. It reminded me a lot of a scene in Andor where Andor says, I'd rather die doing what's right than die giving them what they want. And it's such a clear headed way to look at the world. Like you are going to die. We're all going to die. Right. It's going to happen.

[00:34:06] And if you live in constant danger, like who wouldn't rather die because you were being heroic than die because like you, you know, took a wrong step or got tetanus or, you know, a zombie ate you from behind or whatever. It's amazing. But I mean, it's a sacrifice because he's taking a huge risk where he could die in a few hours or he may have, you know, another decade left if he didn't do that.

[00:34:35] So I think what you're saying is right. They're in a dangerous situation. They're always at risk. But, you know, we know several of those characters are still alive in the Walking Dead universe now. And Herschel only is because of the governor. But anyway, I guess my point is that it was a risk. Yeah, it was a big risk. But I agree with him that it was a completely worthwhile risk. And I loved the speech. And that even Maggie was like, OK, I'll open the door for you. Like, I can't argue with that.

[00:35:04] It's you want to be a hero. It's your life. I also think ever since the ankle bite, he feels like he's living on this bonus time anyway. So it's like I've I'm so lucky to have had the last year with my daughters and, you know, Glenn, who I've come to think of as a son and Rick, who I kind of think of as a son. And it's it just makes me love him so much. I know.

[00:35:30] That's what I was saying at this action figure at the start about how they're really leaning into just making us love the characters. Herschel's the best example. But even Carl, the way he acted in this episode made me proud of him and everything. But what was I going to say about Herschel? Shoot. Oh, his a big part of the argument, I think, that convinced Maggie was everything you said about. Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. But also he said Glenn's in there. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:02] She was like, oh, right. OK, bye, dad. Oh, yeah. OK. Good point. Why are you still out here yammering? Get in there. Let me open the door for you. OK. Lucy? I'm just looking to see if I have anything else about Herschel. But you just described it so well, Penny. At that moment where he's in quarantine and hating it, like a kid on detention, like he's picking up the mug and he's like, oh, this sucks.

[00:36:28] And like people being so polite to him about age and ability and how that's much more delicate in some ways than telling a kid to go into quarantine. Having a look, this has been such a good wide ranging conversation. I... Oh, that's my brand. I love it. I'm sort of thinking about the politics of care in this episode and who cares for who and how that... How we see all these people express their care in different ways.

[00:36:58] You know, Carol expresses her care in a very awful sociopathic way by killing people. But then in this episode, her care is about trying to mitigate that and to help people through things like water and doing whatever she can to kind of atone for what she did. She kind of... I don't think I noticed this before, but she was so upset at seeing Tyrese hurt and just feeling, I don't know, guilt or something.

[00:37:26] And she had this emotional outburst and accidentally knocked or she kicked or something the water container over. What do you call those big barrels? Barrel. Oh, barrel. A butt. We call it a barrel. Maybe in Scotland it's a butt. Oh, we just call everything a butt. We're like... I don't know. And anyway, so I think that's why she went out early to fix the hose because they were already short on water and then they were even shorter because of that.

[00:37:53] So she's just really kind of shooting herself in the foot there. Oh, she really is. We see Herschel doing these amazing acts of care for, like very old school care for Glenn and Caleb by like mopping their foreheads, giving them herbal tea, just these kind of comforting things that you look for when you're sick. We see that with Lizzie and Carol where Lizzie wants a hug because she's not feeling well and she's a little girl.

[00:38:21] Carol telling her that Glenn is the best hugger that she knows. I'm like, poor Glenn, he's about to get glommed onto by a very sick child. Carol said. Yeah, Carol said. Will you read me a story? No. Maggie and Beth sharing their hurt and care with one another and Beth saying, you know, we've got jobs to do, but also understanding that Maggie's hurting and that they're both scared. Sasha and Tyrese caring for one another.

[00:38:48] It's Sasha's love for Tyrese that gets him out onto that run because he's given Sasha Hope talking about getting the medicine. Rick's care for Carl, getting him into quarantine. All of their care for Judith. Beth in there caring for her. It's just lovely. There's just, there's a lot of love in this episode of the way people are with one another and how they pull together. The Sasha and Tyrese scene.

[00:39:15] Is that the execution room that they're in? Because there's a bed behind Sasha that has like straps on it and there's a window. Yeah, maybe. Ew. And I was just like, I was thinking to myself, I was like, what room could that be? That's morbid. It is death row. Yeah, it's death row. I didn't even know it was death row. Yeah, they mentioned that at one point when they're like, oh, A block is clean. And I think Glenn says death row. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's dark when you notice it.

[00:39:44] Because I was just like, oh, there's a, oh. Those writers love that. Oh, let's put it in the execution room. Oh, it's such a fun. I keep thinking this season, the prison is such a fun set to play with and the way that they like humanize it, but you're still in cells and how people live and it's incredible. Seeing the administration building, I'm like, why hasn't anyone set up living in here? This is way nicer than the cells. Much nicer. I know. It has cups and papers.

[00:40:12] Maybe they feel, well, I don't know why, but I probably because they want the visual of the jail, but in story, it could be with the governor out there as a threat. They know the prison's more fortified or something. Something like that. I loved, where was I? You were talking about. Sasha and Tyrese. Yeah. Yeah. That exchange between the two of them. There were two things I really liked about it.

[00:40:40] One was that she gets hope from what he says and he goes off to get the medicine as a result. The other is when they put their hands to the mirror because it always reminds me of Star Trek. And obviously Sonequa Martin-Green went off to be the lead in Star Trek Discovery. But yeah, that's an instance of care as well. Yeah. I'm happy slash not happy that I noticed the execution table detail.

[00:41:06] It's kind of traumatizing my thinking around that particular instance of care and love. But yeah, I just think there's a lot in this episode that is about people supporting one another and Glenn showing his care for Herschel by wanting him to quarantine, looking to Herschel for comfort. But then Herschel also helping Glenn very physically by mopping his forehead, giving him veterinarian's orders. And of course, that gross as hell scene where Caleb coughs all over Herschel and then he

[00:41:35] kind of very stoically just mops it all off. And at that point, you know, he's all in. And at the time, it seemed like a big deal. Having lived through masking orders and what that meant and what that cost in 2020 onwards, I feel like a new appreciation for it. Yeah. So acts of care. The people who go. Oh, and Bob going to help Tyrese and Tyrese saying when they're in the ground. And then Bob picks up a shovel to help him, which is just lovely.

[00:42:02] And of course, Herschel tending to Rick's wounds, which is so father son because he asks Rick what's wrong and Rick just kind of grunts. Hurts. And I was like, oh, this is cute. But I've written Penny in my notes. This is the best Herschel. Those moments where he's sitting with Rick and I could just watch the two of them together. I just think they're such good scene partners. I loved it in Rick's final episode. Oh, yeah. When Herschel was there.

[00:42:31] That was one of my favorite things about that whole season was just getting a last moment with Scott Wilson and Herschel. And wasn't that the last thing he ever filmed? Yeah. As well. And it aired after he'd passed. It's just. It was so bittersweet. Yeah. And I just think, yeah. Herschel saying, you know, it's okay to feel these things. We've lost a lot. There's a lot has happened. We've faced a lot. And Rick's got this kind of bleak outlook of, you know, it's always there.

[00:43:01] Which is kind of what Carl is saying as well. But Herschel is consistently looking for. Well, Rick's talking internal. Yeah. Because he's equating what. Well, first he's with Tyrese. Tyrese starts fighting Rick and. Or no, he's. Tyrese is just really upset. In my mind, he's yelling about dolphins. Yeah. And Rick's like, hey, I know what it is to lose people, but you can't let yourself go

[00:43:30] down that path because I've been there before. And, you know, he's just thinking about losing his humanity. That's on Rick's mind lately. But then Rick loses it and starts wailing on Tyrese, which was like, dude. Yeah, that is bad. And then he's complaining to Herschel later. I can't lead. Look what happens. And Herschel says, hey, we all fall off the wagon sometimes and encouraging him, which I mean, that's just another instance showing that these people, despite Rick's flaws, do want him to lead.

[00:43:59] They keep calling him into that position. But anyway, I think, yeah, saying it's always there for Rick is just like this. This darkness inside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Red Rick. Yeah. So, yeah, lots of acts of care and love, which gives heart to the episode. Such a good, positive point about this bleak episode. And it's so true. Everything you said, like, it makes me appreciate it in a whole different way than I ever would have thought. So that was awesome.

[00:44:29] You're like, you know what? I'd kill Karen and David now. It's an act of care. Yeah. Just trying to care for everyone. It's radical kindness. It's radical kindness. She probably got their permission. I'm sure she did. It's fine. Yeah. They were like, please, Carol, do it. Yeah. It'll be much better. Like, oh. All right. I'm going to talk about the sickness. I think just on the other whole side of the spectrum, this room with all the people coughing blood.

[00:44:59] And then somebody walks by a cell and one of them's dead in there. It's such a nightmare. I imagine. I mean, anyone who's been sick or is afraid of getting sick. It's just such a it's so well done, though. It's like so bad and bleak and gross and horrible. And then if you're sick, you have to go in there and be in that place. And poor Lizzie. I felt bad for little psycho Lizzie. Yeah.

[00:45:25] And Sonequa Martin-Green really sells her performance of like a weak and sick person. And the way she responds to that room is so visceral. And she's such a good actor. I love her. And also Herschel choosing to go into that. It's like, yeah, it makes it all the more heroic just how bad it feels in there. And I wondered if this was all especially hard to watch for medical professionals who

[00:45:55] had to work through COVID and were exposed to a lot of sick people, many who didn't make it. I asked Wendy, who's a nurse. She said, oh, she likes these episodes. She said she liked them because, you know, of the medical aspect to angle to it. As far as the horror of this room, like anytime anyone like didn't want to be quarantined, of course, we all feel judgmental of that.

[00:46:23] But I thought about Jeanette for a second saying it's just allergies. Ask anybody at Woodbury. You'd think I would feel like at this point, you'd think anybody going into this room and it would feel like a death sentence to them. Oh, yeah. I'd almost be like, can I just go out into the woods and take my chances there rather than go in this room?

[00:46:46] But also, maybe this isn't even worth talking about too much, but if she does get these allergy symptoms a lot, I think maybe she should be quarantined somewhere else rather than put in with all the people who definitely have it. You know, maybe it is just the allergies. I did laugh at Carol just being like, come on, get in there. Get in there. Trust me, you don't want the alternative.

[00:47:11] I'm allergic to dust, so I just permanently have like a sniffle and I would be quarantined in that. Like they'd be like, oh, you're sneezing and sniffling, like get in there. But I sniffle a lot. No, no, no. Yeah. Also, an interesting aspect of this episode on rewatch is maybe we don't remember exactly how harrowing it was in a certain way because we know who survives and it's most of the people that we really care about.

[00:47:41] But as we were watching, I feel like the sickness got people more or less in order of which most of us care about them. So like Patrick, who we just met, we liked him, but we didn't know him. Then Karen and David. Well, we didn't know David, but we did know Karen a bit. It was a bit longer. She seemed great and she'd survived the governor and everything. And we knew that Tyrese was in love with her, but we still didn't know her that well. Then we see Sasha coughing and it's like, oh, oh, I was just starting to like her. Is she a goner? Don't let her go.

[00:48:11] And then still at this point, I mean, we're like, okay, if we just lose these people, we can bear it. And then Glenn gets it. Yeah. And then it's like, what? Glenn sees it coming like a steamroller. Like he's like, Tershal, we might be fine, right? We might be fine. And I'm like, oh, you're starting to feel sick. Yeah. And then in that council scene, and they play it so well with the camera angles and stuff, that feeling where you're getting dopey and you're like, oh no, I'm getting sick. This is the worst. Like, oh.

[00:48:39] And the horror lighting where he's in the room and Maggie comes in, he's like, don't come at me. And I'm like, oh no, he's so sick. Don't look. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that was just, I remember feeling like, oh my God, Glenn can't leave this early, right? You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:05] Chat GPT says, a few small studies have found that elderberry syrup or extract may reduce the duration and severity of the flu symptoms if taken within the first 48 hours of onset. Elderberry may help alleviate symptoms or shortness illness duration, but it's not a substitute for flu vaccines or antiviral medications. And I mean, Herschel said, it's not the illness that's killing people, it's the symptoms. So it could help some, at least until the antibiotics get there, according to this. Yeah.

[00:49:35] Yeah. So I guess that's about all I had to say. These episodes do make me think of times when I've been particularly sick. I've had some bad flus and food poisoning a couple of times where I felt like a zombie. I remember one time I looked in the mirror and I looked really pale. I'd just been vomiting and I looked really pale and I was like, oh, cool. I look like a zombie. That's when you know it's like, it's not just that you barfed, it's like a stomach flu.

[00:50:04] It's when you look in the mirror and you're like, oh no. I look like a wax model. Only Jason at that point would be like, oh, look, this is a cool aspect of being this horribly ill. I did. I look like a zombie. Yeah. All right. Penny, got any more? Yeah. You guys touched on this a little bit, but there's a concept in this episode of violence as an addiction.

[00:50:34] And I did just a little bit of Googling around about whether that's valid, if violence is an addiction and whether it works that way. There was a lot more information about anger as an addiction and violence being just one way that that expresses itself. Herschel says to Rick, like, I've fallen off the wagon. And Rick's like, is that what this is? And Herschel's like, yeah, pretty much. And Rick has this feeling of like, it's always simmering beneath the surface.

[00:51:02] I have to actively keep it in control or this like dark side of myself will come out. And everything we've seen about Tyrese shows that he doesn't want to be violent either, right? He didn't like killing the zombies at the fence. He didn't like killing zombies when you go out into the world. He just wants to, like, be in love with Karen. That seems to be what Tyrese wants to do in this world. And then when he's triggered, he's extremely violent. And we see it twice.

[00:51:31] We see it when he attacks Rick. And then we see it when he, you know, hammers all of those walkers out by the veterinary college. And it got me thinking about, like, we know that Tyrese – I don't know if they ever confirm it in the show. But in the comics, he was like an NFL pro footballer. I think they might have said something eventually in show, but I could be wrong. Yeah. And I was thinking about CTE and what that does to people.

[00:51:58] I have a family member who had a very severe concussion. And the effect that it had on his emotions was dramatic. It made him incredibly short-triggered and his emotions really volatile. Now, luckily for my whole family, when he had an incident, it was generally hysterical sobbing and sadness and not anger and violence. So, you know, living with him is not, like, a dangerous, scary thing. It's just sad.

[00:52:28] But – and he is getting better. But it got me thinking and wondering whether or not Tyrese might have CTE. And it would explain to me a lot of things about his character because I always feel like he doesn't really come into focus. He seems, like, waffly and his personality changes a lot. And he's so attached to Karen and his sister.

[00:52:57] And then he tries to attach himself to Carol at the end of season four. And it makes me think that he's not really completely all there. It's interesting thinking about Tyrese and the fact that Kirkman wrote this episode because I remember being quite critical of the show.

[00:53:18] The show Tyrese and comic Tyrese were so different because comic Tyrese was much stronger and much stronger in terms of, like, just being more. Well, wasn't he more of a leader? Yeah, he was more Rick's right-hand man. He was more of a powerhouse, yeah. My understanding is Daryl basically got all the good Tyrese stuff and there was nothing left. I think Kirkman's very cognizant of wanting to keep things fresh.

[00:53:48] So if something was one way in the comics, he might want to – yeah, especially because Daryl kind of took that role. But I just see Tyrese as a sensitive guy who has a capacity for violence but doesn't like that. He has that and doesn't want to entertain that. You know, they say which wolf you feed or whatever. He doesn't want to feed that wolf. And he knows that he can go off the handle and he doesn't like it. He's like the Hulk or something, you know. Yeah.

[00:54:16] And – but it can be very useful. I mean, that Hammerstein was badass. But you feel – I think he feels out of control. And he's also got a lot to be upset about lately with Rick being crazy and chasing him off when they first met. He ends up with a governor who turns out to be a psycho who kills a lot of his people, goes back to Rick's, and then his girlfriend gets murdered.

[00:54:45] So it's really like if he is in this situation where he's trying to keep that under control, it's not a good place for him. But, hey, it's a zombie apocalypse. You can't really – like we were saying with Lizzie, she doesn't have the resources she needs either. But just to think of Tyrese, there it opens with him right there after he's discovered these bodies, right? Or maybe he brought Rick to the place and the bodies are right there. Karen and David.

[00:55:12] And just – I was just thinking, what if that was me and there's my dead partner, the corpse of my partner burned to death? How would I feel? Any of you – any of you – I mean, that's a dark place to go. But just if you want to empathize with him, just think about it that way. Like your boyfriend or girlfriend is there charred and you want to know who fucking did this and how it happened. And the guy's like, oh, it's not important. You know, it's like, fuck you. Yeah.

[00:55:40] I think I would be more devastated. I tend to be a slow burn. So I would probably get angry like six hours later. Yeah, yeah. But – But you'd be upset. I'd be very upset. I have a friend once who asked me – I don't know why this came up in conversation – if I'd ever been punched in the face. And I'm happy to say I have not been punched in the face. And I said, you know, have you? And he said yes. And I was like, what's it like? And he goes, it makes you really mad really fast. Yeah.

[00:56:10] And I was thinking about that like, you know, like She-Hulk and Hulk, like the anger part of the brain is like the amygdala in the brainstem. And it overpowers and bypasses the prefrontal cortex in order to control your actions in the short term until your prefrontal cortex can catch back up and control you. So you literally lose control. Like people say they see red or they, you know, they were so enraged they lost control.

[00:56:38] It is biologically kind of accurate. If you get that angry, your brain sort of bypasses the logic part of your brain and goes directly to action. You just lash out. And no amount of rationality or saying like you need to calm down or anything is going to help in that situation. Basically, you need to give the person space to like freak out and then they'll calm down once they get it out of their system. Yeah. But I do what you're saying about Tyrese.

[00:57:04] I actually agree with you that he seemed a bit amorphous or something and wishy-washy. And I don't know for sure if that's that they didn't find his character or that there's just people like that. Because I feel like even in life, I've met people like that where I, I don't know quite what to think, where you're coming from. And I want something more to grab onto, but it's not quite there. Know what I mean? Yeah. So I don't know. It's interesting.

[00:57:33] You've got me thinking. You've got me thinking. Okay. Lucy, you got any more? I guess that takes us on to talking about the car accident. Oh, yeah. Huge development, right? Huge development. Because I'd forgotten we started getting hints about Terminus. That's right. So exciting. Which is really exciting. So we're joining Bob, Tyrese, Daryl and Michonne on the road.

[00:58:02] We get some cute stuff with Daryl and Michonne about her being out on the road looking for the governor and what that means. And, you know, Daryl sort of says running away, but explains that that's not really what he means. Michonne and Daryl have a really cute relationship where Michonne talks about like, oh, Daryl's already given me fleas. I was like, oh, wow. That's quite harsh, actually. But the two of them are headed out on this trip.

[00:58:27] They need Bob, which I thought was really funny where Daryl was asking him to read the thing and Bob's like, it says, drug name. And Daryl's like, yep, we need you. Bob being a bit freaked out by Zach's car because I guess he feels guilty, as he probably should, because Zach got killed largely due to something that Bob did. And then Tyrese joining them. We see them on the road. Daryl's wanting to put some CDs in, as you do on a road trip.

[00:58:54] But they start to hear on the radio voices from Terminus. And this causes them to come off the road, but not flip the car. And then we get some amazing stuff with like your wheel, not caught on snow, but caught on brains. The four of them heading for the woods, thinking that Tyrese is gone because he ends up in this horde of walkers with his hammer.

[00:59:19] But in a great homage to a scene in the comics, he appears unscathed not long after with them in the woods, heading on foot to the veterinary college. So the stakes are feeling pretty high for the four of them out on this trip. And I thought the car accident stuff was all very well played. It didn't need to be a huge car flip or the car exploding. It just needed to be inconvenient enough that they were suddenly in a lot of peril. The scene with the hammer, it did not disappoint.

[00:59:49] No. Because that was a big deal in the comics. And I don't, maybe it was off panel kind of. And then you just saw the aftermath. I can't remember. But here, man, you really see him going to town for just a few seconds. And they did such a great job filming that berserker rage. And then when he really did. When he staggers out of the woods, he has so much gore on him that you're like, oh, he killed like 50 zombies. I love how they played it, though.

[01:00:18] He's kind of still not quite come back to earth. You know, he's. Yeah, he's out of it. Yeah. Yeah. And he's in danger. And they're like, all right. All right. Good. Come on. Let's go. Let's get out of here. There's some right on your tail. My favorite part in that whole scene is when Daryl pops out of the sunroof. There's something just so entertaining about it. It's just like, I'm here. Oh, hey, guys. Kind of makes me wish I had a sunroof in my car.

[01:00:47] But we did. But, you know, it made the car harder to, like, dehumidify in the morning. So now we have one that doesn't have one. And it's fair. But it's annoying because it was cool. Yeah. I have a convertible. But in a zombie apocalypse, I think that would be a bad car to have. It's like a soft top. I feel like I would get, like, attacked and eaten very easily. Yes. Another point of weakness, right? Yeah. Let's go into notes.

[01:01:17] Penny? I noticed, and I've noticed before, the way Rick stands. I really like the body language that Andrew Lincoln brings to Rick. And he stands in this way that is, it's like he's on the balls of his feet like an athlete, like ready to move in any direction at any time. But he's not tensed. He's relaxed but ready. It's really hard to maintain.

[01:01:43] Like, I got up and stood up and tried to, like, stand like that for long enough to have a conversation. And I was like, oh, you know. I like to see that. I couldn't quite do it. He stands curvy. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a very particular body language. I love his run as well. Like, he runs funny. Like, the top of his body doesn't move, but the bottom. Yeah. And he holds his gun while he's running, which makes perfect sense to me because it would be flopping and annoying.

[01:02:11] But it does kind of make him look a little robotic. Yeah. I never noticed that. It's great. We were just talking in the chat. And by the way, if you haven't looked into it, we have a Podcastica Facebook group. And there's chats for most of the shows that we podcast on linked to it. And so there's a rewatch chat. And if you want more conversation outside of the podcast, it's a great. Just search Podcastica on Facebook.

[01:02:38] But anyway, in the rewatch chat recently, they were talking about how he holds his gun angled down. Yeah. Which is very iconically Rick Rimes. And why. And people were speculating maybe the gun's just heavy, you know. And I'm like, no, I think Andrew Lincoln wants it to feel like he's bearing down on you, you know, just sort of dominating the situation. And I think Andrew Lincoln thinks of him as an old West type character. I think he's mentioned Gary Cooper before. Yeah, definitely.

[01:03:08] That's what he had in mind when he first started playing him. I read, I think it was maintenance phase. No, it wasn't maintenance phase. It was you're wrong about. And they were speaking about what makes an icon. And one of the things they said about an icon is you can recognize them from only their silhouette. And I think The Walking Dead, there's a lot of characters who you would recognize from their silhouette. And I always think of Rick. It's not up, but I have a print that I got from a walker stalker of a Rick silhouette holding his arm out with the gun.

[01:03:36] And yeah, I just, I think of Rick that way. You could tell who it was from his silhouette and the way he stands. It's great. Distinctive. You can tell Negan too. See, I have that bat. Ugh. I mean, yay. I was wondering if the We All Got Jobs to do conversation between Beth and Maggie is their last conversation ever.

[01:04:03] I thought this, Penny, and I think they're together at the fence when Herschel dies. Oh, you're right. They are. Okay. But I mean, I don't know that they were having a conversation at that point. Not that that's a better last shared memory. Hey. How are you? Yeah, good. Yeah, busy. You know, it's stressful right now. This is a bummer, isn't it? Yeah. It's a bummer, right? It sucks. I often don't watch that episode on the rewatch. I don't like seeing Herschel get killed.

[01:04:32] No, it's brutal. It's pretty gory. Yeah. Which would have been Teresa's death. You know what I'm excited about? That we're coming up on Tara, the character. Oh, she's fun. I like her. Yeah. And it'll be fun to revisit that character because I don't remember a whole lot about her. The second half of season four is terrific. Like, I love all of it. I love Abraham and Eugene.

[01:05:02] And oh my God, do I love Rosita. Okay. Okay. I had a whole point about Tyrese, but I think we talked about most of it. But I do. I did like. So he flies off the handle with Rick in a way that I very much sympathize with. Then Rick starts wailing on him, which I thought, oh man, you need help, buddy. But then they both apologize to each other later.

[01:05:29] You know, Rick apologizes and Tyrese says it's on both of us or something. And I think it's worth noting. That's, that's awesome. It could have been the start of an adversarial relationship that caused a lot of trouble for everyone, but they both had the humility to apologize. And I just think that's great. It's very well done. It's very respectful apology scene. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, that kind of thing doesn't always happen.

[01:05:56] And sometimes it can be the start of generations of cycles of violence because of one incident like that, you know, but they just nipped it in the bud, which is great. Yeah. Uh, Daryl tells Michonne that the governor's trail went cold and if it was any different, he would be right out there with her looking for him. And that just made me think of how later when Rick disappears, Daryl spent six years out on his own looking for him. But I guess Daryl's more into family and loyalty than vengeance.

[01:06:26] Also, I think Daryl is really enjoying his role in the prison. The scene in the council where he's like, all right, I'll take a group. He's such a leader and he's so comfortable in the role. And I think after this, the sadness that happens on the road at losing the prison isn't just about the people they've lost. It's about the way he felt there as like this accepted member of a society.

[01:06:54] It's almost like he's at a convention, you know, it's a Daryl convention. Norman Reedus used to have that same look in his eye at all the Walker Shocker cons. That's hilarious. You already sort of mentioned this, but I just thought it was so funny when Herschel said, you know, to go to the veterinary college, I can lead the way. I know where everything's kept. Daryl's like, well, when we're out there, it's always the same. Sooner or later we run. I can draw you a map.

[01:07:24] I like that. Daryl keeps referring to Judith as the little ass kicker and not Judith, which she absolutely does become a little ass kicker. When Herschel said to Doc S, you know, Doc S kept saying, is his name Caleb? Yeah. He kept saying, you know, you shouldn't be in here. And Herschel's like, if you weren't in here already, you'd be in here.

[01:07:50] And I was just imagining Doc S thinking in his head, no, I wouldn't. I literally have the same thing. I was like, Doc S is like, hell no. No, I wouldn't be in here. No, you're wrong. If it was the office, he'd like look to the camera and be like, no, no. That's right. I would not be in there. Yeah. No, I would not. Sure. He's like, I would leave the tea at the door and then back away. Right. I'd head back to Woodbury.

[01:08:21] IMDB dive. This marks the first time Carol has left the prison since the group's arrival at the start of the third season. At 15 minutes, 54 seconds, you can hear a cry that sounds exactly like the witch in Left 4 Dead, which is a 2008 zombie game. That one's quite badly spelled. So I think that might be not accurate. When Daryl is tuning the radio in the car, you can briefly hear the broadcast from Terminus. Tyrese is swamped by walkers when he leaves the car. The others leave him, believing he cannot escape.

[01:08:49] However, he manages to fight them off and survive. This mirrors the graphic novel when Tyrese was left for dead in the prison gym after the death of his daughter. It's the first mention of Terminus. It features the deaths of Karen and David, and it marks the final time that Carol would see Herschel alive. Which is sad. In the timeline, we're on January 28th. I'm really annoyed that we're not, we're not like 12 days later recording this because this is January 28th, 2012. It's day 522.

[01:09:19] Judith is still around six months old. And there's stuff happening in the governor's storyline, but nobody fucking cares. So let's just not even go there. One thing I forgot to mention is that when I filmed the prison scenes for the season three finale, I don't think I mentioned this anyway. The prison exterior was constructed on the back lot of Raleigh studios in Sonoya, Georgia,

[01:09:43] where they film a lot of internal scenes and where all the zombies get made up and, you know, that's their headquarters. So they just, instead of going out on location, they just built the prison there. Makes sense. And then at the end of this season, they tore it down and they built a sanctuary there eventually in the same spot, I think, the Savior's compound. Okay.

[01:10:09] Only on The Walking Dead would someone kill their sick friends to stop the spread of said sickness, but wouldn't think to suggest that people wear masks. Yep. Which might be a good first step. Yep. Only on The Walking Dead would you incriminate yourself by trying to get mud out of a pipe.

[01:10:33] Only on The Walking Dead would an actual child holding a gigantic gun look cute. You're not wrong.

[01:11:13] Infected news. Okay. So The Ones Who Live is now on Netflix in the US and it's kind of making a splash. Oh, really? I mean, I checked last night. I didn't check today, but last night it was number two on the top 10 TV shows. Holy shit. The Ones Who Live. That's cool. That's awesome. I love it. I wonder if it might inspire AMC to do another season if it keeps being really successful.

[01:11:41] I don't know, but it's kind of fun to think. Yeah. There are so many spinoffs they could do that I would watch. Like, I really want a Gabriel and Aaron spinoff. Me too. I loved them together in that one minisode. Yeah, definitely. I'd like to see more of Ezekiel in something and Jerry. Oh, yeah. Too. You know? I would just watch like a Jerry sitcom, like him and Nabila, like the cute little kitties. Yeah.

[01:12:09] Or they could get a show where they bring them all together and just call it The Walking Dead. Be brilliant. We should pitch that. Oh, Matt King wrote in. I thought I'd put this here. It said, regarding The Walking Dead shows in UK currently, Disney Plus only has the original series on. Sky slash Now have the original series, Dead City, The Ones Who Live, and The Daryl Show. So, Amazon Prime has Fear and World Beyond.

[01:12:38] Tales of the Walking Dead is not on any UK streamer. And you can buy it for $25 on Amazon. And he said he also found to buy on Amazon Prime a French series from 2021 called The Walking Dead Hexagon. I looked that up. It's a fan-made thing, so it's not official canon, but I didn't know anything about it. I feel like Daryl Dixon might be on Disney Plus now as well, but I might be wrong, Matt. So apologies if I am.

[01:13:08] People can look if they want to check. I put up a poll on our Facebook group asking people whether we should do a full Last of Us rewatch before season two airs in April or just do a single catch-up episode. 80 people voted last I checked and there was a clear favorite. Can you guess, Lucy? Do I want to? What was it? 14 people or 18% voted for a full rewatch. Yay!

[01:13:37] That means 82% or 66 people voted for a single catch-up episode. I was kind of relieved. Although I am going to do a full rewatch, but I'm happy that people will be happy with, most people will be happy with just a single catch-up. Yeah. Okay, that's good. My homework's gone down a little bit. Amazing. Yeah. I mean, we will be breaking for The Last of Us. We won't be doing rewatching. Thank you for clarifying that because at one point I was like, oh my God, what's going to happen? Because I think with The Last of Us, I'm only every other week anyway. So yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:05] Yeah, we have multiple hosts. We have multiple hosts. Multiple hosts. Alicia Debnam Carey, who played Alicia on Fear of the Walking Dead, is co-starring in a new Netflix series called Apple Cider Vinegar coming out, I think, February 5th. It also stars Caitlin Deaver, who's going to play a major character, Abby, in the upcoming season two of The Last of Us, them two together.

[01:14:31] And Wikipedia says about Apple Cider Vinegar, the series follows wellness guru Belle Gibson, who's Caitlin Deaver, and her friend Mia or Mila, Alicia Debnam Carey, who use their platforms to, quote, cure people. Gibson takes it too far as she fools her following in the world with a shocking cancer diagnosis that's all based on a lie. It's filmed in Australia, and Alicia Debnam Carey, who's Australian, released from the trailer, gets to speak in her natural Australian accent.

[01:15:01] So I hope this is really good. I want to see her. I liked her in Fear as much as I didn't like Fear, and I'd love to see her go on to do great things. And Caitlin Deaver is just fantastic. What is she? I don't know if I've seen her in much. Booksmart. Booksmart. What is the name of that series on Netflix? It's dark. It's about rape, but she was so good in it. I'm looking at her wiki.

[01:15:30] And Justified Season 2. Oh, so good. So good. She must have been pretty young. Yeah, she was like 14 or something in Justified. Unbelievable. Unbelievable, yes. That show, everyone should watch. It's got Merit Weaver in it as well, right? Yeah. She was also a kid actor in Party Down, which was great. Oh, I loved Party Down. She played Megan Mullally's kid, Escapade.

[01:16:00] Good. I'm glad they got somebody good for, because that's a big role for Season 2 of The Last of Us. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to Lister Moans, Gruns, and Grunts. Click, click. I'm a zombie guy. Getting in the mood for The Last of Us. I'm a zombie guy. One thing, we're starting to get more voicemail, which we love. Totally love that.

[01:16:26] I also wanted to remind you guys, we typically ask people to keep them down to like two, three minutes, maybe four, if you've really got some incredible things to say, so the podcast doesn't go on too long and that we have room to include everyone. And this time, you might notice I've added some of your calls just a little bit. So, Penny? I'll start. Russ Fulks says, y'all ready to be naughty? That's what Sasha says in Bad Lip Reading. Oh, okay. I was like, I don't get this. Okay. Yeah.

[01:16:56] She's like, y'all ready to be naughty? That's hilarious. Awesome. Oh, God. Megan Dively Levin says, I just listened to the last episode and you guys cracked me up talking about the time I dropped my AirPod in the toilet. I cleaned it up, dried it out, and used it for another two years. But the battery life was never the same. All right, Megan, now you have to tell us if you had already gone yet or not.

[01:17:25] Yeah, she evaded that question. Josie Bowen-Ectil says, Herschel's such a good man. He's phenomenal to watch. That is true. This episode is just full of characters being wonderful and terrible, but in such beautiful ways. I'm loving rewatching this each week. So heartbreaking, but also heartwarming in a way. Absolutely. Love to all. Yeah. Thanks, Josie. I'm glad you found us. Yeah, me too. All right. Here's a live Steve. Live Steve.

[01:17:54] Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve, and this is going to be for The Walking Dead. It's an isolation. When we open up with Glenn digging one of the graves, and he sees Patrick's grave. Is that a gun on one of the markers? Oh, Tyrese giving Rick the beat down. Oh, and Rick giving back just as good. Oh, that eye, Tyrese, looks bad. Oh, that made me jump. All right. Council meeting. Herschel just said the title of the episode, isolation, mic drop. Oh, yeah.

[01:18:22] A lot of people getting sick, and it's not going to be good, I don't think. I can't remember exactly how they fix this or get out of this. Yeah. Carl doesn't like having to go into quarantine at all. And now it looks like, is that Glenn getting sick? Sasha and Daryl. Sasha's like in the old days. What, like two weeks ago? And now Daryl trying to convince Tyrese to come with him on the run, but he just won't leave. Is Lizzie really sick or is she faking? I don't remember. I don't know why she'd be faking, but she's a little psycho, so good.

[01:18:50] I think Brighton Schreiber knows really good, but she wasn't that convincing in her cough. And it looked like maybe she was faking. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to go in there and kill people. That's good, Beth. Just, yeah, focus on what you have to do, what you're supposed to do. Oh, and Carl's got the hat on again because he's not a farmer anymore. It's not a farmer's hat. Oh, gross. Is that the woman that Rick spared in the first episode? No, no, it's not right.

[01:19:18] Why did Herschel not want Carl to shoot those two walkers? Just not waste the bullets, you think? I love Carl. I think he was just trying to encourage his nonviolent tendencies or something like that, right? Also, he had remarked how peaceful it was in the woods. I think he was like, I don't want to hear a gun right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, my thought is always, what if they're eternally suffering? You're putting them out of their misery, but I think I was supposed to put that aside for this moment.

[01:19:47] That's how I feel about it too, but not everyone agrees. It's all in Bob's relationship. You really want me coming along? What's that word? Yeah, you're coming along. Is it namineer? I don't know. What's the irony that Tyrese asking Carol to look in on Sasha who's sick and we know what Carol did. Oh, Carol, that's a bit of a waste of water there just to be, because you're frustrated. I just had to pause it for a second because Maggie's having this discussion with Herschel

[01:20:16] and Rick walks up and I just realized it's real subtle. We know Rick just hurt his right hand really bad and his gun is on his left hip so that he can shoot with his left hand if he needs to. Oh, and Rick is just as good with his left hand as he is with his right. On a side note, I've had to teach myself to shoot with my left hand now. And this is our first time hearing the Terminus recording on the radio. And of course, Daryl isn't paying attention, so he hits a walker. And now they're surrounded.

[01:20:44] Wow, that's a lot of walkers. Took Bob and Tyrese to get out of the car. Oh, I see. Tyrese is having a moment. Now Tyrese is... Oh, they left him by himself. Oh, but Tyrese made it. Wow, he looks exhausted. Oh, and Dr. S looks like he just coughed blood all over Herschel's face. Maybe that's tea. I don't know. Wow, he just asked her and she just says, yes, she killed Karen. Nathan. Carol, I mean. And that's the end. Talk to you next week.

[01:21:15] He's been having a real tough time with his hand, Steve. Oh, yeah, of course. What do you call it when you're using a mouse a lot? RSI? Oh, carpal tunnel? Yeah, carpal tunnel. I think it's extreme. It had surgery and everything. So I hope you don't mind my saying that, Steve. But yeah, I feel bad about that. I hope you're all right. We're pulling for you, man. I hope you don't care, man. Andy Fisher says, isolation, disease, heartbreak, despair, anger, confusion, sadness.

[01:21:45] What an amazingly written and crafted episode. Was Scott Gimple the showrunner for this season? Scott, thank you. The first three seasons of The Walking Dead were incredible, but season four is the one that I return to again and again, with the exception of the Governor storyline. Every character is so well written and acted, and each episode builds complexity of emotion. The actors are incredible, trying to hold on to sanity as everything is going to shit.

[01:22:13] The episode makes me think of the villains of The Walking Dead, the good ones, the okay ones, and the others. The villain of the beginning of season four is not a person. It's a disease. And I think it's one of the show's best. Five pizzas and a ring. Mm-hmm. I love that you sign off with that. Becky Anderson says, I love Herschel and Rick conversations. Won't be doing much typing in the next few days. Herschel is such a great character.

[01:22:43] Honest and real, but delivers his messages with such calm, it's hard not to want to take his advice. Interesting the way he compared his falling off the wagon with drinking to Rick falling off the wagon with his rage getting the better of him. I also loved how Herschel took care of Glenn. He just seems to know the right things to say. I agree with all the listeners last week talking about how different these episodes feel when looking through a post-COVID lens. How scary for all the ones who had to go into isolation because they were sick.

[01:23:11] Michonne's comment about Daryl already having given her fleas was cute. I love how she's really feeling part of the group now. I melted a little when Daryl told her he's glad she's here. A lot of gruesome shots in this episode. The blood coming out of everyone's orifices. The bear trap walker. Gross. I cringed when I heard that message come over the radio. I wanted to scream, change the channel! I think the best part of this episode was the end. Brilliant ending on that one word from Carol. Yes. Overall, a really good episode.

[01:23:41] Now this is unique being about where the sickness is the antagonist. Yeah. It's unique in the series, which makes it stand out. These episodes stand out as different. Yeah. All right. Here's Archmaester Rennie. Hey, Jason and Lucy. I've caught up with the rewatch again. I keep falling behind and catching back up again.

[01:24:05] I'm really happy to be caught up now in season four because season four is when I originally started watching the series live. I binged seasons one through three before season four aired and then was live with it the rest of the way through. At that point, I had not read the comics, but I picked them up sometime during season four's original airing.

[01:24:31] I started from the beginning of the comics and read past where we were in season four to catch up to where the comics were at that point, which at that time was in the Negan era. And for the next few seasons of the show, I actually preferred the TV storyline to the comics storyline, although I eventually came to prefer the comics version, but only by a little bit.

[01:24:57] I used to keep a chart of the differences between which characters were alive or dead in the show versus the comic or who only existed in one or the other. Also, I was very conscious at the time that I was watching two series based on source material, for one of which, The Walking Dead, I preferred the show version. And for the other, Game of Thrones, I far, far, far preferred the book version.

[01:25:24] None of the deviations from the source material in Game of Thrones were improvements or even interesting alternatives. While I think many of the changes in The Walking Dead were interesting alternatives to characters and events in the comics, including the prison epidemic story with Carol killing Karen and David, and everything that follows from that, and the whole story of Lizzie and the flowers.

[01:25:52] So, Jason, Lucy, don't look at any flowers. Thanks! Aww. I try not to. I preferred the comic most of the time, but now that the comic's been over for a while and we're still watching the show, the show's so much fresher in my mind and the comic's fading from my memory.

[01:26:19] So, I guess I kind of prefer the show now, but the comic's so good. I mean, I've read hundreds of different comic series and it's one of my very favorites of all time. Very good. Okay. Good to hear from you, Ronnie. Here's Andrea Maitland. She says, Hi, Jason and Lucy. Hope you're well. I wanted to respond to your podcast last week in regard to Lizzie looking at the flowers. I'm not a therapist and I don't know if this is where the writers got the idea.

[01:26:47] However, I do suffer from anxiety and there's an exercise I use when it gets really bad. It's a grounding technique focusing on the five senses. I've attached a photo, but basically you start by focusing on five things you can see and move through the senses counting down to one. So, see, then touch, then hear, then smell, then taste. This works for me and my acupuncture doctor said I need to be distracted to calm down.

[01:27:14] So, Lizzie looking at the flowers is maybe just a very short version of this. Yeah, I think so. I think that's what it came from, this kind of thing. But that's so interesting. I've never seen this before. And do you like taste different things or do you just sort of try to identify different tastes that are already there? I use this all the time and it's the taste thing, the way I interpret it is like, is there a taste in the air or in my mouth already? Right? Like, have I been drinking coffee or did I have a sandwich or whatever?

[01:27:44] It really, really helps. It just, it takes the wind out of the anxiety because it does make you sort of ground yourself in the real world. It's a great technique and it's easy. It's very grounding. Yeah. I bet you it helps a few people just hearing this right now. It might help me. Yeah. She goes on moving on to this week. A couple of things. I like the little moments of Michonne teasing Daryl that he's already giving her fleas.

[01:28:11] And also when Daryl refers to Judith as a little ass kicker, best nickname ever. I laughed last week when Jason said Carol fans were saying shut up Jason. Cause just at that moment, I was thinking that sorry, Jason. Oh, thanks. I do love Carol, but watching it this time with you guys, I do. I do wonder what she was thinking. Her character always seems to make decisions without thinking when she's emotional, not an excuse for killing people, of course, but I still will love her forever. Ah, me too.

[01:28:39] Uh, Herschel's you risk your life speech always makes him a hero to me. I guess I wanted Herschel to be my dad, even though I had a great dad. So I guess I wanted him as my TV dad. I met Scott Wilson at a Walker stalker and I'm so glad I had that opportunity. That's all for now. Have a good week. And thank you. Thanks, Andrea. Yeah. Dina writes in and says, when isolation first aired, it was gripping and tense, not a scene wasted, just great, easily digestible entertainment.

[01:29:09] I watched it again during the pandemic shortly after things started opening again, not entertainment at all. It was terrifying and filled me with anxiety, a prophecy fulfilled. This time it hit me differently, more personally. I'm a ball of fear. Lately, two fears prevail as my knees are beginning to ache and I see my elders experiencing slow, miserable deaths. Fear one, getting old with all of its indignities.

[01:29:36] Depends undergarments, age spots, and sagging jowls. Forgetting, being forgotten, being useless, being patronized, being scolded by your own kid. Glenn puts Herschel to pasture, but Herschel is having none of that. Every time he is scolded, he sternly yet politely tells them to bugger off. Yes! I took some cheer, hope, and inspiration from him and desperately wanted to punch Maggie. Nobody ever wants to punch Maggie. Okay.

[01:30:05] Fear two, when the shutdown occurred, my friends and I made a COVID Spotify playlist, a means of burying our fear. One song was Pearl Jam's In Hiding. Of course, with COVID, a huge part of isolating was to stop the spread. Keep others out of danger and to ease the burden of first responders. But in other circumstances, to hide from fear of a hellish death when others need help, when they need a first responder because no one else is able, yikes.

[01:30:33] I hope when the time comes, I am a Herschel. He shoves aside fear and comforts others. Entertainment becomes art when it serves humanity. That service is always there, bubbling along under the surface. But sometimes it only emerges at the right place and time. Herschel did it for me this time. What would the Hersch do? Is my new motto. Another fear flees. But damn, Michonne is a lucky gal. Oh, I do. That was great.

[01:31:03] I think I needed to hear that. Thanks, Nina. Yeah. She's such a good writer. Oh, yeah. She's very good. All right. Here's Robin. Hey, y'all. It's me. Good morning. I love this episode. It's just got so many wonderful character moments. I especially love the focus on Herschel and everyone's insistence on trying to protect him and him having these conversations like with Dr. S. Dr. S is sick. He's like, you shouldn't be in here.

[01:31:32] Herschel says, don't tell me that. You know you'd be in here if it was you. His conversation with Maggie when she confronts him about not being in quarantine. He's just like, Maggie, I have to do this. You know that. I have to do this. And his conversation with Carl, which is my favorite. Carl telling him as Herschel's trying to go outside, I can't let you go. And Herschel going, let me. But Carl saying, I have to go.

[01:32:01] I have to go with you. And he so clearly means it's not because it's my responsibility or that dad sent me down here to watch the kids because I always need to feel needed and to keep people safe. It's because there's something in me that says, I have to go out there with you. And Herschel lets him and then they're out in the woods together talking. Love that interaction.

[01:32:23] I love Beth's evolution in these episodes from the little girl that, you know, was ready to give up right at the beginning of the apocalypse when, you know, she lost her mother and lost everybody to this woman who's really, really got a steely strong spirit. And she has to constantly repeat her refrain, her mantra. Everybody's got a job to do. And she cries a little bit when nobody can see her, but she's totally able to hold up Maggie, who's practically ready to fall apart.

[01:32:53] And, you know, she's down there by herself with the baby. And I love to see where Beth is going. She becomes a really interesting character to me. And then, Jason, I really agree with you about Tyrese being an interesting character, you know, with this incredible rage inside him that comes out and that he almost can't control. Along with, you know, his reluctance to be part of the violence and the constant killing and everything.

[01:33:23] But when he was sitting there with Karen on his lap and he's singing to her, which, you know, she laughs a little bit. And then he starts, I'm thinking to myself, this girl is not going to put up with this for a long time. She's going to be like, Tyrese, get a grip. We're trying to make out here, you know, come on. But read the room. But I do agree. He's a really interesting character. And I do come to like him a lot. A couple of things.

[01:33:49] Does Carl have the orange backpack when he's packing to go down into quarantine with the kids? It looks like that's the orange backpack. I think he does. Also, I love the moment that Michonne. Do you know? Yeah. I so I noticed the backpack because I think Glenn ends up with that backpack. It's around. Yeah, it's on the go. You guys talked about it in the original podcast. You know, they say you shouldn't go with Daryl because he's been exposed. And she's like, well, he already gave me fleas.

[01:34:19] Love it. Pandemic brain again. Herschel, you know, Dr. S coughs on him and he gets blood all over his face. And then he takes his rag and, you know, just wipes it off. And I'm like, oh, my God. But then I got thinking, what's with these rags? I'm sure the infirmary has boxes and boxes and boxes of masks. But, you know, whatever. Also, last but not least, I live in the part of Georgia where they film this about an hour

[01:34:47] away from maybe an hour and a half away from Sonoy. And I'm here to tell you that they would not be digging those graves like that in this red Georgia clay without a pickaxe. So, you know, they make it look like it's doable, but it really kind of isn't. But anyway, thanks for listening. I'm sure we'll talk again. Hi, Robin.

[01:35:10] I think they probably didn't put masks on them for the same reason why in superhero movies they often take off their masks because the directors want to see the actors emoting so we can connect with them. But I do think if this was shown post-pandemic, if they dared to do an episode like this, they would have had to address that somehow because masks are so much more in our public consciousness. Yeah. Yeah, that's true, actually.

[01:35:42] Okay. I've got Rachel Teal Edwards who says,

[01:36:16] Yeah. I was thinking about that.

[01:36:45] I don't know. She'd be a fascinating and potentially nightmare-inducing patient. Isolation. What an episode. Gosh, this season is so good. I love seeing the dynamic between Beth and Maggie and how different they are. We really don't see much of it after this, do we? Now that I'm in counsellor mode. Now that I'm in counsellor mode, they made me think of the wise mind Venn diagram. Rachel's posted this below. Maggie spends a lot of her time in emotional mind and Beth spends most of hers in reasonable mind.

[01:37:14] They balance each other out in that way. Even thinking back to the farm, Maggie was especially dramatic in the early days with Glenn and could not keep her cool in a crisis. And while I realise Beth tried to off herself, it wasn't an impulsive decision out of a rush of emotion. To her, it was a logical conclusion that she came to after full exposure to the reality of the ZA. Thankfully, she shifted her mindset and leaned into surviving and living despite the circumstances.

[01:37:42] And she still spends most of her time in reasonable mind, while Maggie often lives in emotional mind. We don't get to be upset. We all got jobs to do. Focus on what you have to do. No matter what happens, we'll deal with it. That is the most reasonable minded thing anyone has ever said. Meanwhile, Maggie's controlled by her emotions and can't focus on anything but worry and fear. One of these mindsets is more beneficial than the other in the ZA and yet only Maggie survives. Herschel's monologue.

[01:38:12] Listen, dammit, you step outside, you risk your life. You take a drink of water, you risk your life. And these days, you breathe and you risk your life. I can save lives. That's reason enough to risk mine. Ah, it's so iconic. I think it needs to be the opening clip for the podcast this week just so we can hear it, all hear it again and treasure him. Nearly as iconic, Ty and his hammer just smashing away at walkers in a fit of rage. And the first hint of Terminus. So much happening and so much to look forward to. Bye!

[01:38:43] And yeah, that Venn diagram is super interesting. It shows. So there's rational minds on one side, emotional mind on the other, and wise mind where they overlap. Rational mind has approaches knowledge intellectually, thinks logically and uses past experience, uses facts and research as well as planning focused. Emotional mind on the other side has reason and logical thinking difficult, uses only emotions to make decisions.

[01:39:09] Reactive tells us how we are really doing, uses core psychological needs. And then wise mind where they overlap says intuitive thinking arrangement and balance between rational and emotional mind living mindfully. And honestly, I think that it's better to be in the middle than just on the rational mind side. When you can channel your emotions rather than just cut yourself off from them. Like Tyrese, he was in his emotional mind when he was doing that whole hammer thing.

[01:39:38] But if he hadn't done that, he would be dead. And if you can channel your emotions without letting them control you, you can do things like that. You know, you can let them fuel you. And you can also stay connected to yourself and others while you're doing whatever you're doing, which I think is a benefit. So that's my opinion on all that. Yeah. Moderation between the two. All right. Thank you. That was great. I'm glad you wrote in with your professional opinion about Lizzie.

[01:40:07] And also, I mean, you guys seem surprised when Dina had a little bit of a knock against Maggie. But I've noticed online sometimes there's a lot of people who are super critical of Maggie, just by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know exactly why. I mean, there's a lot of, like Renee says, if you go looking for it, you can find a lot of people saying nasty things about Walking Dead characters. Oh, yeah. All right. Here's a call from Carly.

[01:40:38] Howdy, Jason and Lucy. This is Carly from Santa Fe. These are my thoughts on Season 4, Episode 3, Isolation. Now, the opening shot, I understand it's a sign of respect and is probably very important for their social and spiritual health to dig graves. But it also struck me that it's a huge expenditure of energy and time. I just feel like that could be put to better use. Like, don't they need to be working on other things?

[01:41:07] So, I don't know. Tell me what you think about that. And when Rick's... I think you're probably right. Right. So, if they're doing it, it must be emotionally important to them if they're spending that time rather than just piling the bodies up somewhere. But probably in a practical sense, you're probably right. He starts hitting Tyrese and starts to lose control.

[01:41:29] Like, I think that vindicates his fear in the previous episode that taking steps, taking leadership, getting involved, like, that could lead to him being dangerous. And it was really touching that Daryl is there to keep him in check. And I think that's an important lesson he needs to learn about being part of the community is that, yes, taking a leadership position, protecting the community could lead him down this path. But also being part of the community is what keeps him in check.

[01:41:59] So, I thought that was interesting. And I really wonder, you know, Carol's there witnessing this fight. I wonder if that makes her regret what she did. I was trying to look at her face the whole time and see if she gave anything away, but there weren't a lot of opportunities. And, you know, post-COVID, the lady who was going into quarantine and she's claiming it's just allergies. Oh, that made me so mad. I was like, no, no, this is important. You have to go into quarantine.

[01:42:27] And then also Glenn sitting through a whole council meeting and he's already having symptoms. I just, I think even now, if I start to feel a little bit congested or a tiny bit of a sore throat, I live in a very dry climate. So these are common things. But like, even now I'm like, oh God, is this, what are these symptoms? You know, I should stay away from people. I should not go out. And so Glenn, I can imagine his thought process because I'm sure we've all had it many times. It's like, oh, I don't feel right.

[01:42:57] Is it the sickness? Is it just dehydration? You know, and that questioning and like trying to understand what's going on in your body. But it's still, I mean, it just brought up a lot. Just looking at Glenn and he's feeling ill and he's in the middle of the meeting with Herschel, who then he says is elderly and needs to go into quarantine. Like, it's very frustrating. It's all still very real for all of us. Okay. So Tyrese, it's kind of a miracle that he's lasted this long.

[01:43:26] I think that he's just sad in his soul and in his heart. Like he was disheartened by killing walkers at the fence. And then, you know, he went on a run to get away from that. And then someone died. And it's just so, like, you can feel the weight pulling on his spirit. And I wonder if, you know, a relationship with Karen could have strengthened him or not.

[01:43:52] Like, you know, I wouldn't want to put a romantic relationship to, like, put that much pressure on a romantic relationship. Or, like, would it have given him at least one happy thing to hold on to to get him through all of this ugliness? And then now Rick and Carol. I love Detective Rick. He's so fascinating. He's putting things together. And I like that he, you know, he realizes that Carol did it because of how she so fiercely cares for people.

[01:44:20] But then she also has the hubris to make her own decisions about what's best. Like, first, story time without the parents' knowledge. And then going to unclog the pipe even after Rick said he would cover her if they waited till the next day. Like, she just, she makes these decisions and she's not, she's not a team player. And that hubris, like, that is what helps him connect that she's the one who did it. But I thought that was fascinating. You know, Carol is one of my favorites.

[01:44:50] But I agree that her killing Karen and David is probably the worst thing she has done. It's not, it's unforgivable. And I think she understands that later. And that's why she leaves Alexandria to live alone. She knows what she's capable of. And she doesn't want to inflict herself on a new community. But I wonder how that action compares to other people being self-destructive.

[01:45:16] Like, Bob putting alcohol above the people he's with and their safety. And, you know, Rick, when Lori dies, he was ranting and raving and pretty scary and dangerous. Like, the season starts out asking, can you come back from terrible things you've done? And, like, that's a truly terrible thing that she has done. I don't remember if there's any specific redemption for Carol. But does there have to be?

[01:45:43] I mean, all of these characters are in this extreme situation. So, like, I'm curious how it compares to others. Like, doesn't everyone kind of do something? I mean, Carl murders a kid. Like, you know, and I know he's a kid himself. So what does it take for redemption? What does it take for us to, like, forgive someone? But also in that situation, you really just need people who are going to keep you safe.

[01:46:11] And does that overcome also these actions? It's pretty fascinating. You know, I didn't think I would get this much out of a rewatch because I've watched the show so many times. But it's really fascinating, all these questions coming up now. I also hope that you will keep us informed about Karen and anyone else in the Podcastica community who is in the Los Angeles area. She got cut off there. But Karen is still fine.

[01:46:40] Her area has not been evacuated or anything. And she's hoping that'll stay the case. Okay. That's good. But all those questions about redemption, I mean, that's a big one. I think that's kind of the question of the show, right? I think Carol is, when she's forgiven by Tyrese in the episode The Grove, is a really huge moment for her. And I don't know that anyone else really needed to forgive her.

[01:47:07] But then after Terminus, they're all like, oh my god, you, we owe you everything. And Rick kind of apologizes to her for kicking her out. Yeah, I'm very excited to get to The Grove. Yeah, that episode's amazing. I also remember that, like, the forgiveness that Tyrese shows her. They've just been through such a thing. And it's almost like he's not even thinking about Karen.

[01:47:35] And that woman's just like, okay, let's just get past it. Yeah, it's dark. All right. One more message. It's actually from Karen Shee. I forgot she'd written in. Oh, good. She says, hey, Jason and Lucy. I enjoyed your discussion last week about Carol's chaotic goodness and the quandaries of her actions. Of her actions. I'll have to keep an eye on her more closely as I'd forgotten how much of a live wire she truly is.

[01:48:02] Jason, you moved me with your example of how you'd speak to Lizzie, empowering instead of shaming her. Ideally, that's what I would aspire to anyway. I lose my temper all the time with my nieces and I'm inspired to adopt your zen. And don't even fool yourself into thinking that's how I am with my own kids. Because it ain't. I appreciate it, but no. Today's Bodie's birthday, by the way. He's eight. Oh, happy birthday, Bodie. Kiddo. So, Lucy, you don't have kids, so you don't understand.

[01:48:34] A little emoji with its tongue sticking out. Please know that this childless, catless, single lady is just joking. Oh, I love you, Karen. It's true. I just, you know, the Grove to me is like a parenting manual. I'm like, that's what you do, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's exactly how you handle children. That's it, right? That was awesome. Cool. Maybe I will have one. You don't have to keep them very long, see? It doesn't seem too hard. Oh, man. But on to isolation. Is it wrong to say that everybody looks hot, sweaty, and fine this season?

[01:49:04] Nope. I agree. Glenn can tuck me in so that I'm toasty and warm, too. This is, you're pretty spirited today, Karen. Aside from the eye candy, I love Daryl's confidence and level-headedness here. He's already exhibiting leadership qualities by rounding up people to retrieve the meds. I love that we see the origin of Michonne and Daryl's friendship, since Michonne was still pretty new to our main group in season three. Here we get their backstory of being out on the road for six months in search of the governor.

[01:49:34] It reminds me of the mutual respect and bond that the two have in season nine when together they search for Rick's remains. Shout out to Emmy-winning director Dan Sackheim for the beautiful cinematography in this episode, too. Oh, cool. Lots of long dolly and pedestal shots, a roaming camera to slowly reveal things in a frame. Example, Tyrese realizing that Rick is standing next to him as he's digging graves. There was also, I think, Carol.

[01:49:59] Well, I remember when Tyrese showed up to ask Carol to look after Sasha. Maybe they did one of those there, too, because she was really startled to see him. Oh, my God, he's going to kill me. I'm sorry. What? Nothing. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. Huh? Sackheim's framing camera angles from above and below. It creates a rhythm and dynamism to the episode.

[01:50:23] What more can be said about Herschel's iconic you step outside speech, except that only Scott Wilson could deliver it with gravitas? Who didn't think of this speech as we had our own pandemic and wondered where to draw the risk tolerance lines? I didn't, but now I feel bad. Lastly, I've always wondered since Jason was so involved with Walker Stalker con and panels and know the cast and crew. Do we know if Gimple named Karen and David after podcast goes Karen and David?

[01:50:52] If not, it's still my headcanon that he did. I don't know. I can't say no to that. P.S. Thanks for giving a shout out. If he did, that's kind of weird. The two who got charred. Yeah. I wouldn't want that honor. Yeah. If he did, that's dumb. That's awful. P.S. Thanks for giving a shout out to the L.A. fires last weekend. I am safe and well, but directly no people whose houses have burned down.

[01:51:17] Even as I've come away unscathed, everybody in SoCal is hurting and this feels like a collective tragedy. Your well wishes and good vibes are felt. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Karen. Good vibes. If folks have the means to donate, please indeed look to the Red Cross, but also Chef Jose Andres World Central Kitchen and the Pasadena Humane Society.

[01:51:43] If not, one simple and free thing that each one of us could do right now is to stop revering to these events as natural disasters. There's nothing natural about the scale and scope of recent hurricanes, floods, fires, heat waves. The language we use has power and we can start calling these climate crises and even human related climate disasters. The word natural obscures human involvement like the fossil fuel lobby in climate change. Hear, hear, Karen.

[01:52:12] Couldn't agree more. Yeah. Very true. All right. That is our show. Episode 620. Thanks for listening, everybody. Penny, thank you. Long time coming and I'm so glad to have you on the rewatch. You're welcome to come back. Thank you. I love it and I would be happy to come back. Sweet. I'm excited for Yellow Jackets coming back so I can hear you guys. Yeah. And my ear holes.

[01:52:42] Next episode will be The Walking Dead season 4, episode 4, Indifference. And we'll have to be like, eh, it was all right. Eh, eh, eh. Eh, eh. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And also, you can find some treasures there, which, like our other podcasts, like Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast that Penny mentioned at the top, which is a delight.

[01:53:12] Are you still doing really long ones? You are, right? Because you just go so in-depth. Yeah. We really get into it. And I was joking during Agatha that I don't think I'm physically capable of doing less than two hours of a podcast. Amazing. And as we alluded to, Penny will be podcasting with Daphne, Wendy, and hopefully me at some point on Yellow Jackets Season 3, premiering on Valentine's Day. Anything else you want to promote, Penny?

[01:53:38] Well, go back and listen to our Agatha All Along podcast on the Marvel TV cast feed. We really got in-depth on that, and that show was so much more than anyone expected it to be. Yeah. I loved it. I mean, my favorite of the Marvel Disney Plus series was WandaVision, who had the same writer, head writer. And so, but I think Agatha All Along was even better. I think so, too. And same. Before this, it was WandaVision.

[01:54:08] Yeah. So she's good. Uh, this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like MD Myers, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you so much to MD and everyone else who does that. I just did a listener chit chat, which I'll do like interviews with patrons every once in a while. And this one with Madeline Joe, who's an artist from, I keep forgetting either Seattle or Portland. I think Seattle. So, and she's just a real free thinker and really interesting kind of a person to talk

[01:54:38] to. Her parents met in, um, like clown college or something like that. Oh my God. So it was really fun and fascinating to talk to her. That's amazing. I can't wait to listen. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get sick, Linda Elise. Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!