621: "Indifference" (TWD S4E4 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh. What comes the drone? I killed two people and you haven't said a word about it. What do you want me to say? It's not about what you say. It's about facing reality. It always comes for us and over and over again we face it so that we can live. So that we can live. That's right. That's what it always comes down to. You can be a farmer, Rick.

[00:00:29] You can't just be a farmer. You were a good leader. Better than I probably gave you credit for. I never murdered two of our own. Just one. He was gonna kill me. So were they. They were gonna kill all of us. You don't know that.

[00:01:22] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 621. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, Season 4, Episode 4. Eh, indifference. Meh. Meh. Alright. Thanks for listening, everybody. We're done. Eh. I was indifferent. Eh. They asked for it. They called it that. That's what they asked for. You get what you asked for. That's what you asked for. Yeah. No. Let's, you wanna read the plot summary?

[00:01:52] Why not? Um, plot summary. Rick and Carol go on a supply run together, during which they encounter a young couple, Anna and Sam, who want to join the group. Rick is uneasy, but agrees to let them help gather supplies. Meanwhile, Daryl, Michonne, Tyrese and Bob continue their mission to find medical supplies for the sick back at the prison. Tensions arise between Rick and Carol as they discuss her decision to kill Karen and David in an attempt to stop the illness from spreading.

[00:02:18] Rick ultimately decides that Carol's actions make her a danger to the group and tells her she can't return to the prison. He leaves her with supplies and a car to survive on her own. I disagree with one element of this summary. Um, it's chat GPT. So it could be wrong. Yeah. Anna and Sam, I don't know that they want to join the group. I don't think that, I don't think that's on their mind. I think Rick's testing them out for it. I don't think it's their aim. They want to once they know it's an option. Once they know, I agree.

[00:02:46] But I think it's like, it makes it sound a bit different from what goes down. Yeah. They're kind of indifferent. Yeah. Eh. Eh. Whatever. They should have made every, everybody in this episode. Tyrese, you seem angry. Eh. Eh. Eh. Eh. So what did you think? Eh. No, I'm not going to stop making jokes with being indifferent now. Uh, yeah, I enjoyed it. I find it hard. Uh, two observations.

[00:03:13] One, I thought this happened way later in the season than it does. Um, I remember Robin Lord, Robin Lord Taylor was really taken off at this point. Cause of Gotham. And I think he must've filmed this before. Cause I remember everyone being like, holy shit, that's Robin Lord Taylor in the walking dead. I think Gotham might've come right after this. Cause what, at least in my memory, I was like, Oh, this like little me guy who seems kind of inept, whatever's bit player. And then next thing you know, he's the penguin and he's dynamic and complex and he's showing

[00:03:43] up at Walker sucker and he's like Mr. Social and really cool. And I'm like, Oh wow, Sam, that's Sam. So I, at least in my memory, it came right after, but I don't know. I feel like, so my theory is, listeners will correct me if I'm wrong. Gotham's not at this point, but when he comes back at Terminus, I think people started to know who he was. Um, so yeah, I, I enjoyed that element of it. I found it harder to keep my attention the second time around when I watched this. Um, but I think it's a strong episode of the show generally.

[00:04:12] It's probably one of, it felt slower in some ways than the ones we've had up till now. Yeah. It's interesting to not really be at the prison much at all. Um, yeah. Yeah. I like when they have a change of pace and, uh, but I agree with you. Um, if there were a string of episodes like this, then I wouldn't like it. But with just one, I enjoyed, I very much enjoyed all the interactions between Carol and Rick and the other stuff was, was pretty good. Yeah. No. It was fine. It was good.

[00:04:40] Uh, and I, I also thought this was later and, uh, I forgot how long the sickness goes on. I keep expecting the, oh, the next one's going to be where they're all like in the sick room and Lizzie's like trying to make friends with the zombies in there and everybody's coughing on each other. I think that must be next week, right? It's called an internment. So. I think so. I keep thinking it's next week. Yeah. Same. This felt, I was like, oh, this feels out of order for me, but I think I'm just remembering it wrong. Oh, this is episode eight. That's what happened.

[00:05:10] Oh, sorry everyone. No, just kidding. Yeah. Same thing. All right. Let's go into our points. All right. Um, let's start with for me. Okay. This one's a, this is left field. It's very left field. Um, Rick and Laurie and Carol and Ed. I find this a really interesting interaction that they have where they're like shooting

[00:05:35] the shit about their ex partners who are both dead now. Um, and it reminded me of, there's a scene where they get, I think they get to Alexandria and Rick is talking to Michonne possibly. And he talks about the house being the kind of house that Laurie had always wanted them to live in and had always aspired to. And what he says about Laurie, he tells this anecdote about the pancakes and how they're God awful.

[00:06:02] Um, which is inherently quite funny because we all have those kind of foibles with family and loved ones who are trying something and it, it doesn't go right, but we love them. So we put up with it anyway. I mean, they said, he said there were flower clumps of flower, right. And that she kept making them because she wanted them to be the kind of family that has pancakes on Sundays. And I'm like, that is really sweet. But how many Sundays does it take to figure out how to make the pancakes? That's right.

[00:06:31] That's right. Come on. God damn it, Laurie. Um, and it, it, I think it's interesting cause it gives you a little bit of insight into maybe how Laurie felt about her life a little bit that she, she aspired to more than they had. Like maybe their life was smaller than she wanted it to be. Maybe she wanted a bigger house or wanted to be more perfect. And I think it's interesting when you get this kind of retrospective character development for characters who are no longer there.

[00:06:58] And obviously Carol talks about Ed and Ed is such a huge part of why Carol is the way she is and the things that she's experienced. And you can see Rick, I don't think he swithers about whether or not banish Carol. I think he's pretty set on it, but I think the closest he comes to swithering is when she talks about teaching herself how to reset a shoulder because that's a harrowing reminder of what she's been through and the pain she's endured and how she had to kind of look after

[00:07:27] herself and be that woman who was scared of being alone. But then of course this little interlude where they're just being kind of friends really is interrupted by the fallen fruit and seeing Anna's leg. And I think when Carol's weirdly cold about that, like she doesn't comment on it. She's just like, we better get back stuff to do. It seems to really unsettle Rick or steal his resolve in some way. Like he's let his guard down, but now he's like, no, I got to do what I got to do. Because she's indifferent.

[00:07:57] Because she's indifferent. Ah, ding, ding, ding. Title of the episode. And I just, I really liked that moment before that, that sense of the history these characters have because at this point Carol and Rick have known each other for over a year. Carol and Laurie were very close before Laurie died. There's a lot of history there that we don't see because of the season breaks. And it just, that scene when it came up again, I was like, this has always stood out to me

[00:08:23] as a really nice character beat in both the positive that it shows the kind of compassion of the two of them, but also the complete lack of it on Carol's part when it comes to other people. Absolutely. And that of course leads to their kind of what is humane versus what is right. Which is the scene that precedes this with the two of them. Where Carol, I think does raise some valid points and does say, you don't have to like what I did, Rick. I don't. You just accept it. But how can you accept something so horrible?

[00:08:52] It's a difficult one. Um, but I figured you would have something to say about Carol and Rick's discussion about humane versus right. Yeah, a little. I mean, my first point is why Rick did it. Should I go into that? Go for it. So why Rick did it? I think this is a continuation of Rick having decided to have compassion for strangers, for all good people in the world, not just the ones closest to him.

[00:09:21] Um, he thinks Carol has grown callous after losing Sophia and thinks most people's lives are expendable in service of protecting those closest to her. And she's indifferent to the ones that aren't closest to her. Hence the title. And that's the path that Rick was going down himself before he ran into Morgan, who was way further down the path. And then Carl shot that kid and it reeled him back in. Then Carl murdered a child. Yeah.

[00:09:51] Yeah. So he thinks Carol's in danger to people and the way to help most people is to, is to banish her. And so I want to go through what happened with them in the episode and see how that fits in. Is that right? So that sounds brilliant. Yeah. So first we see Rick's taking Carol on a supply run, just the two of them. And I actually think maybe at this point, he's not 100% decided to leave her out there. He's seriously considering, considering it.

[00:10:17] The reason why I think that is because it seems like things that happened during the episode steal his resolve, which to me means his resolve wasn't completely steeled in the first place. I guess we see that as well with the Michonne handover in season three, don't we? That Rick's not the most decisive sometimes. Yeah. He's very, he frets over decisions. Yeah. I mean, very, very difficult decisions. It's not like he's just like, Oh, but do I want pancakes or waffles?

[00:10:46] It's like, Oh, do I kill this person? Clearly waffles. The pancakes are off. Clearly waffles. The pancakes are shite. But like, yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They're pretty important decisions. Um, so then I love how Rick's not saying anything about it. And so Carol just starts defending her actions and then asks him later, why haven't you asked me about that? Cause I could see where she at first might not want to talk about it, but then when she's like, Hey, he's not talking about it. So I need to know where he stands. What is going on here?

[00:11:14] You know, do you ever get that with your kids were like, they know they're in trouble, but you haven't told them what kind of trouble yet. Like you're thinking about it. You're like, okay, I haven't decided what the consequences of this are. And they're like, I don't know why, but I don't that dynamic. I don't know if that happens a lot. Probably. I can't see you being, I feel like you're, you're quite an open book. They're not like afraid of me, but they're annoyed when they get in trouble. But, uh, I do remember one time when I was a kid and my little brother, who's

[00:11:43] like, uh, seven years younger than me was peeing in the pool and didn't think anyone was paying attention. And I went Jeremy and he goes, nothing. But anyway, um, so she's not sorry at all. You know, she's standing up for what she did. She's saying they would have drowned in their own blood. They were suffering. I made it quick.

[00:12:10] And I thought I would be okay with that if Karen and David had wanted it, but clearly they didn't give their permission. She says we needed the bodies gone. We need to stop it from spreading. I'm like, well, you didn't need the bodies gone. They were in quarantine. That's how you stop up sickness from spreading. In fact, you going in there into the quarantine zone and then coming out, you risked spreading it around. Yep. She says they were the only ones who were sick. They were a threat. And I'm like, well, that's not how you address the threat.

[00:12:39] It didn't work clearly. Now Lizzie sick and Glenn, you're going to kill them too. No. Um, she says I was trying to save lives. I had to try. Somebody had to, again, you didn't have to do that. So I just want to like, as I'm going through, I, that's what I thought about her, um, justification. They meet Sam and Anna. And I don't know if I got the point of these two before, aside from just, you know, the other tragic walking dead thing.

[00:13:06] But now I think they're there in the story because everything that happens with them confirms Rick in Rick's mind that he's doing the right thing. That's why they're there. They seem nice. Uh, but you, of course you never trust anyone. And I liked when Anna said, you guys look all right. What's your setup? Like Rick answers by asking how many walkers they've killed because that's now walking dead shorthand for we're vetting you to see whether you can be in our group. He's in recruitment mode. Yeah. And then the next scene, uh, he apparently has accepted them.

[00:13:36] And then, um, they volunteer to help Carol and Rick look for supplies and Rick is resistant, but Carol argues for letting them do it. Then Rick kind of goes along and gives him the watch so they can regroup in a couple hours. But you can see that Rick doesn't like the way Carol was quick to let these two try to help them because I think, cause they're kind of inept, they're hapless. Uh, he dislocated his shoulder from tripping.

[00:14:03] They don't know that you need to knife a zombie in the head. They're both injured, but yet Carol is like, yeah, send him out there. And I think that's because she knows they'll either successfully help them or they'll die. And in her view, it's worth the risk. Apparently she's indifferent to it. Uh, then similarly, he's not sure it was a good idea to bring them back to the prison and ask, did you think it was the right thing to do? Which I think is a test. And she's Carol says, if they're strong enough to help us survive this thing.

[00:14:33] Yeah. I think you made the right call. And Rick says, and if they're not, and she says, let's hope they are. And the subtext of that is they'll either help us or they'll die. I'm indifferent. It's worth the risk. Yeah. Then out of the blue, um, Carol says, I killed two people and you haven't said a word. And she says, this is about facing reality. It always comes for us over and over again. We face it so that we can live. And Rick goes so that we can live, which I think that's the emphasis on.

[00:15:02] We means he's judgmental that she views others as expendable as long as the people she knows is as close to her safe. So Karen and David, they don't matter indifferent to them as long as the people I'm close to her safe. And I kind of get that in a way I personally would prioritize people I knew and cared about over others in a life or death situation, but not to the point where I'm needlessly putting others in danger or being careless, you know, and reckless with others lives.

[00:15:29] Like, like she was, I think with Karen and David and maybe also here with Sam and Anna. Mm hmm. So then, um, she says later, you were a good leader, better than I gave you credit for it. He says, I never murdered two of our own, which is like, damn. And then she goes, just one, which is a great reply. I love that comeback. I was like, Oh, you went there. You're not wrong. But the thing is, Shane was a lot of trouble.

[00:15:56] He was trying to kill Rick, take his wife, you know, just try to take over the farm from Herschel and everything. And Karen and David were just hanging out. So it's not exactly the same. I would say she didn't even need to kill them. Um, then Rick asks how she knew how to put Sam's shoulder back into place. And she says she learned it from doing it to herself after Ed abused her. And she says, I actually convinced myself. I was happy with him, made a decent living.

[00:16:26] He was charming when he wanted to be, especially those mornings after he'd come home, piss drunk and stupid, stupid. I, I don't, I didn't think I could be strong. I didn't know I could. I already was. And Rick asks, why don't you say her name? And I think the reason why his response to that story is asking about Sophia is because he's worried that after Sophia's death, Carol's become callous and uncompassionate. But she equates that with being strong.

[00:16:53] And so then she says she's dead. Rick's, um, Sophia dead, somebody else's slideshow. So she's becoming indifferent to that maybe, or just not letting herself feel it, you know, which he finds alarming later. They find Anna's leg and then they see the zombies eating her. And Carol coldly says, we should go back. Sam's probably waiting. Rick doesn't like that. She doesn't seem impacted by that death.

[00:17:20] And, uh, especially since she was the one that encouraged them to go out and look for supplies, even though they weren't, they seemed inept. Then waiting for Sam back at the house. He's not coming. Carol insists on leaving and says, I know it was a nice watch. And because he'd given Sam his watch and Rick, I think is looking at her. Like I'm more worried about this guy's life.

[00:17:41] Um, and I started thinking as I was writing my notes here too, that how later in the Daryl show, uh, in her search for Daryl, Carol puts ashes, life in danger under false pretenses. So she's being a little reckless even now these days. Right. Right. Same with Connie. Yeah. Yeah. Recklessness is the key. When I thought that when I, when that germinated in my head about Carol, I was like, that's it. She's fucking reckless.

[00:18:09] And sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Very much pays off sometimes. Um, uh, then Rick says, Karen and David might've lived and now they're dead. That wasn't your decision to make. And he says, when everyone finds out they won't want her at the prison. Well, that's a presumption that he should not have made in my opinion. Uh, I do understand it though, because then he says, Hey, I'm making this decision for me. So I, I'm glad he said that. Cause he's like, I know we have this council.

[00:18:38] I'm doing this because even if it was just us and my kids, I wouldn't want you there. So he doesn't want her around his kids cause he's afraid she's a danger. And at this point I think he has good reason to think so. But I think another reason why Rick takes her back after she, I mean, she saves all their lives at terminus, but also she had Judith that whole time. So she kind of proved, Oh wait, she cares for my kid. You know? She did. That was probably a big bonus. The ultimate thing that we spoke about a bit in terms of when we were talking about

[00:19:07] Negan getting redeemed is like, what could he do? He could save baby Herschel. Yeah. Um, and she does that. She brings him Judith. She brings him something. I haven't killed quite a few kids along the way. Uh, he doesn't know that yet. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it is the ultimate kind of symbol of, and also Tyrese has forgiven her. He knows and he forgave her. Yeah. And then he dies like two episodes later. But he served his purpose. No. He served his purpose. No.

[00:19:35] Uh, so then Carol gives him, uh, Rick's Ed's watch, which I loved that she's like sort of accepted it and not been like, you fucker. I hate you. I never want to see you again. I'm glad I don't have to or whatever. She's like, okay, well here's his watch. And then she drives away and I felt so sad there. And it felt like a breakup where you feel like, you know, I'm pretty sure this is the right thing, but it still hurts. Right. You're like, here's your swear. Like, okay. Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:06] Uh, and then, um, yeah, I guess that's it. I, I, I, I can't remember if Rick is honest about what happened with Carol to the people back at the prison. And I can't remember how Carol ends up with Tyrese, Lizzie and Mika. Uh, I think, I don't think Tyrese ever knows. Really? But you just said, until she, until she tells him, I don't think Rick tells him. Oh yeah. Um, I think he tells Daryl or something.

[00:20:33] Cause I remember Daryl being angry at him for leaving her. Um, but I don't know. I can't remember. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm kind of glad to not remember a lot of details cause then it's a little more fresh. Yeah. It's more fun to come back and be like, ah. Oh yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Is anything I said in there you think is not? I actually think you're bang on. I think Carol argues her case quite well in this episode.

[00:21:03] Like I think she, she gives logical reasons for what she did, but sometimes you can't logic your way out of what's a terrible act and what she did was a terrible act. That's the part I don't agree with because I just don't think, I just think leaving them in quarantine and killing them had the same impact on the sickness, except in one scenario they're murdered and you've exposed yourself to them. So I don't think it was a good thing to do even if without the murder.

[00:21:33] No, no. I think she says, um, I like her line. You don't have to like what I did, Rick. I don't, I think it would be different if she was like, I think it's amazing, but she's like, no, I did. She's viewing it as doing something that's necessary, but horrible. Yeah. And I think it was horrible and unnecessary. That's why I'm particularly offended by it, but it's like the Venn diagram. You agree on horrible. It's whether it was necessary or not. Yeah. Um, because if it is necessary, that's a whole other story. Right.

[00:22:01] But now, I mean, there's some cases in the walking dead. That's the thing in some cases in the walking dead where I have to go, okay, wait a minute. Like with Shane and Otis, like my reaction to that was, oh, you're a monster Shane. But then when I really thought about it, I'm like, no, the writers wanted to set up a situation where either one of them, then was going to get out of there or they were both going to die. They both couldn't make it out. And so Shane knew that. Yeah.

[00:22:30] And he offered to be the one to let Otis go. Otis said no. So he shot Otis and he needed to do that to save Carl. So once I put that all together, I'm like, that was a horrible thing, but it had to happen. Uh, but with this, I don't even think the writers were trying to set that situation up because, um, you know, now Lizzie sick and Glenn sick and is Carol going to kill them? No. So it's not even a necessary thing. I don't think.

[00:22:57] I will say we're judging this with a view of the whole story. Whereas Carol didn't have that at the time. Yeah. And she was panicking. I am not saying she should have done it. Obviously. No, no. Devil's advocate. She didn't know at the time that it had already spread. Well, that's kind of like, I think we were talking in the last time or a few episodes ago, like how in COVID people were not making, people were making decisions with the information they had at the time in hindsight.

[00:23:25] Uh, some of those, I don't agree with, but with what we knew at the time, then yes. But if they had started saying let's murder people, then I don't think I would have been okay with it. Like, Oh, we don't have all the information. We need to kill everyone who's sick. No. Yeah, exactly. I think, um, she, yeah, to me, I think she fought her corner well in this episode. And I think she was right to kind of call Rick out on some of his mild hypocrisy about Shane.

[00:23:55] I still agree that Rick should have killed Shane, but I think from her opinion, it, from her point of view, it was good to take him to task about that. And also just to pay homage to the show's history and the storytelling and what they've been through together. Um, and yeah, I kind of had the same experience as you of like remembering Sam and Anna as like puppies almost like just these really adorable, sweet, I think there were some of the last people we meet in the walking dead where you're like, Oh, they're just nice.

[00:24:23] Like from this point on, of course you don't trust them at first because you can't trust anyone, but you have to ask them the three questions and find out if they're okay. And you're not as cynical as you like, we have fruit, like, Oh, they're really cute. Yeah. Um, and I'm, I'm sad that that happened. I thought it was, it pays off massively when you see Sam again later. Um, you wonder kind of how he ended up at terminus. Did someone come and get him? Did he get lost? Like, what happened? How did he get there?

[00:24:52] Oh, I found this railroad track and I got distracted or I don't know. Yeah. Just like walking around. He's sort of a manic pixie dream, Sam. He's like, yeah, it's great. Maybe ran away. Um, so I think, no, I think what you said is reasonable. And I think what Rick does is also reasonable, but it's handy that she's so near the prison so she can come and help them all. Hmm. I wonder, um, what Sam and Anna's answers were. How many, how many walkers have you killed? Oh, we haven't been able to kill any. We tried, but we just couldn't. How many people?

[00:25:21] Um, no, no people. All right. One guy we accidentally set on fire. Like, oh, hell no. I guess you can come back with us. Um, I did love that the Hyundai was a big, the Hyundai, sorry, was a big feature of this episode. I was like, is this the Hyundai's last episode? Um, it's not, I don't think I was like, does that, because I was like, does Carol get sent away with the Hyundai? And that's like, it's actually a goodbye. Banished the Hyundai. Where the Hyundai gets banished. But I think Rick drives home in it.

[00:25:50] Um, and I think what Rick says to her is the key point of what, one of the key points of what you're saying is they might've lived. You just don't know. You don't get to make that decision. You don't get to know everything. Um, and you can tell it's a hard decision for Rick as well. Yeah. But it's weird. He kind of sends her away in quite an empowering way. He's like, you're not that woman who was too scared to be alone. You can do this. He's probably trying to make himself feel better at the same time. Definitely. You know? You'll be fine.

[00:26:19] And it's going to pay off in a really wonderful reunion after Terminus. Yes. So I'm excited. And a great series of episodes with them separated. Yeah. No, it's wonderful. Um, I'm sort of with you that like, apart from that, I'm like the rest of the episode I'm a bit like, yeah, they kind of go on a rage. They get some stuff. It's fine. Bob's an alcoholic. Daryl's angry about it. Eh. Um, it's yeah, I guess.

[00:26:47] Um, first of all, this episode was written by Matthew Negretti, which I thought was interesting because he show ran world beyond. That's right. Yeah. Um, so his character stuff tends to be quite good. And I think this episode holds up on that point. Um, but to talk about the other storyline, which is of course the group that are on the run to the vet college. They've had to spend the night. I think Tyrese mentions that they've lost a whole night. He's washing out his clothes in cold water.

[00:27:17] Folks, if you're listening and you need to get blood out of clothes, cold water is a great idea because blood has protein in it. And if you wash it in hot water, it will bake into the clothing. Oh, wow. I did not know that. So Tyrese, necessity, the mother of invention, his t-shirt may be okay. That's why my shirts are all blood stained. Yeah. It's gross, right? Um, as long as you rinse it with water first, it can be very beneficial. Um, anything, yeah, anything that might get baked in. Um, it's a wise idea to do a cold wash first.

[00:27:47] So Tyrese knows what's up with laundry. Um, Tyrese is struggling a bit in this episode and I was thinking a lot about the listener feedback we had last week about Tyrese potentially having some kind of brain stuff going on from sustained head trauma. Mm. And it was interesting to read him through that in this episode because he's really not coping very well. He's very distracted. He's very angry. He's just a big hulking kind of mess of emotions.

[00:28:14] And I thought that was a really interesting kind of dynamic to have in that group of people, um, who are out on this, this kind of last minute, well, not last minute, but last ditch attempt to save everyone. Um, they end up at a petrol station, sorry, a gas station. Yeah. Where they find a car that Daryl needs to find a battery for. I loved that somebody had changed the numbers so that it said hell at the petrol station rather than, uh, any numbers in particular on the cost. I love that. On the cost.

[00:28:43] Um, and yeah, we see a bit of bonding between Daryl and Bob. Daryl's like, I think I have another point about Daryl that I'll come back to, but, um, Daryl and Bob have this kind of moment there. Um, and amidst Tyrese's kind of anger. And we learned that Bob has a lot of mental health stuff going on. He's scared of the quiet. I, my guess would be because he was a military medic. We're talking about PTSD here. Mm-hmm .

[00:29:11] And also he was part of two groups and was the last one alive. Yeah. So it could be that too. Oh, it's a huge amount of stuff to go through and how he just wanted to keep walking and take his own life. Um, but then we see Bob kind of pick up at the vet college. He's a bit more in his element when he's helping them find medicine, but he gets distracted by the temptation of booze. And that leads to this really, oh, just tense scene at the end where he won't let his bag go.

[00:29:38] And Daryl, who I think has given him the benefit of the doubt is furious at him. Uh, and he's even more incandescent when Bob reaches for his gun, when Daryl tries to go for the booze. Oh yeah. Absolutely. He's just disgusted. But then Bob is so pitiful and he says it was just for when it gets quiet. Uh, it just, it's just a really- You reach for his gun and that's like, oh, you're an addict, man. You're an addict. Yeah. And you just know that Daryl's bringing his own trauma with like, I'm assuming his dad was probably an alcoholic.

[00:30:08] I think he talks about it in the Moonshine episode, but you just know that there's stuff there for Daryl as well. And Merle. And Merle. Yeah. I think that was a sore spot for Daryl because he's had addicts. Addicts. Because he was very supportive towards Bob when Bob said, I, uh, reach for that booze and that's why the shelf fell. And I'm basically, I'm the reason that Zach died. And Daryl said, bullshit. Now, why don't you start the car? And I'm like, that was his pep talk. Cool.

[00:30:36] But then, then, then he actually said, uh, Sasha and me picked that spot. We took you with us. There ain't no way anybody could have known you ain't going to be standing alone. Not no more. So, so nice. What a, what a wonderful thing for him to say. And he took like, he's like, I'm just as much to blame as you are, but we can't think that way. You know, we're, we have good intentions. We try our best and accidents happen. Basically. I think is what he was saying.

[00:31:01] Um, but then, yeah, as soon as he grabbed that booze, was trying to get the booze from the zombie and put themselves in danger for it to Daryl's turn against. Yeah. He fucked it. Yeah. You fucked it, mate. You fucked it. Um, it's, it's so horrible for everyone involved. I just, yeah, it's. I mean, stories with alcoholism and addiction, it's, I think it's kind of hard to make them.

[00:31:31] Uh, they're just sort of, they're well-worn. Uh, you might say overdone. They're very depressing, you know? So it's hard to do them in a way where it's not like, uh, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, oh God. I think Lawrence Gillard Jr. does a great job of making Bob pathetic in that, in the sense of inspiring pathos and the viewers. Like he's, he's so good in that. I agree.

[00:32:00] He's, he's very poetic the way he speaks. Uh, like he says, when it's just you out there with the quiet used to be, I drink a bottle of anything just so I could shut my eyes at night. The way he speaks and the, and his, and Lawrence Gillard's demeanor, even when he's, is this pathetic guy who's an addict, which I mean, you gotta have compassion for addicts too. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but, um, I just think I am tired of stories about addiction

[00:32:27] and alcoholism and yet I do find his character engaging still. Yeah. Talking all in different directions. Sorry, but. No, I think it's, it's just, it's nice to have him there. I sometimes wish Lawrence Gillard Jr. had been around for longer on the show. Um, but he. How sad when he died. Yeah. This stuff just really works. I just really enjoy it. And I, I actually came to enjoy his character even more and more as it went along. I know. Yeah.

[00:32:54] Um, so yeah, that was my kind of point about Bob on that mission and Bob and Tyrese and what they're going through. Sounds good. All right. Let me talk about Lizzie a little bit. Um, where is it? Okay. So Carol's prepping Lizzie before she goes on this supply run, which is really sweet. You know, I think Lizzie's in Carol's, I used to talk about Rick's circle of care and how it kind of shrank and then it grew back out and Carol's circle of cares may be kind of small

[00:33:23] right now, but Lizzie's in there and it's sweet. And Lizzie's talking about how she thinks the zombies are just different. And she says, I'm little now. If I don't die, I'll get big. I'll be me, but I'll be different. It's how it is. And I'd be like, yeah, but zombies are mindless killers though. That's the difference. Honey. I, um, I find that so creepy. She's like, I'll get big. And then, and I was like, Oh, Oh my God, she's so creepy. Like, Oh, also you're not going to get big mate. You've not got much time. Oh, I know. That's true.

[00:33:53] But I mean, I just like, I would want to just say, yeah, but they're killers. They're killers, Lizzie. And I, but I don't think there's any reasoning with her of course. And I kind of wondered what, what would she say if you said, but they're killers. And so I did a little role play with chat GPT where I was Carol and chat GPT was Lizzie. Amazing. So like a standard, standard Saturday night for you. Yeah. I just had nothing else better to do.

[00:34:21] Um, so the existing dialogue that I asked it to pick up from Carol says, Lizzie, when they come back, people aren't who they were. And Lizzie says, yeah, but there's something there's someone I'm little now. If I don't die, I'll get big. I'll be being, but I'll be different. It's how it is. So then here's the role play. So chat GPT is Lizzie. Lizzie tilts head thoughtful. I mean, it's all the same. Isn't it alive? Dead. We all change. Maybe walkers are just the next part. And then I'm writing Carol's part. It's similar, but it's not exactly the same.

[00:34:51] One important difference is walkers are mindless killers. They don't have any of their previous humanity left. I'm not talking to her like a child, like you talk to a child. I might, but anyway, if you get near any single one of them, they'll, they'll either kill you or bite you and turn you into one of them. And then you'll mindlessly try to do the same others. And then Lizzie frowning and looking down, but they don't mean to, they're just doing what they do. It's not their fault. They don't know any better. Looks back up at Carol eyes wide.

[00:35:19] You said we have to kill them because they're dangerous, but what if we don't have to, what if we could just understand them? Maybe they're not all bad. So then I wrote, you're right. They don't know any better, but that doesn't change the fact that they're dangerous and we can't be friends with them. Then Lizzie tears welling up, but maybe they could be our friends. If we just tried harder, maybe if we didn't hurt them, they wouldn't hurt us. Pause is looking desperate. You said we have to fight to survive, but what if surviving means we forget how to care? What if we forget how to be good?

[00:35:48] It's almost over. I promise. Then I said, uh, they killed literally billions of people at first. That just sounds like, you know, that doesn't sound like Carol. That's just Jason. I'm like, come on. At first people didn't know what they were like and their guard was down and they died because of it. People who thought their friends and relatives were just sick or different, they are sick and different and also very dangerous. And we've seen over the last year that nothing is going to change that. Lizzie quietly staring at the ground, but it's not their fault.

[00:36:17] They didn't ask to be this way. Maybe, maybe I'm dangerous too. I've done bad things. I've hurt people. Does that mean I'm like them that I can't change either? And then I said, look at the flowers, Lizzie. Lizzie pauses, confused, then smiles faintly. The flowers? Why? Looks at Carol eyes wide with a mix of innocence and unease. Are you mad at me? I just wanted to help. I was trying to understand. I'm like, I can't anymore.

[00:36:46] I don't know what to say to this kid. Couldn't convince her. I love these insights into what you do when you're not podcasting. I love it. It's great. I don't usually do this, but I thought it'd be funny. I do stuff like this sometimes. You're right. Yeah. Oh, Lizzie. Lizzie, Lizzie. Brighton Sherb. No, she's amazing in this. I just love her. She's so good as Lizzie.

[00:37:13] It made me so sad when you used to say that like it, it was not at Walker Stalker, but like people would be. Oh, they got death threats. Yeah. 11 years old. Awful. She's such a little cutie. And yeah, she's just very good in the scene. And when she says, yes, mom. And Carol's like, don't call me mom. I'm like, I know. Ma, don't call me mom. Just don't. Don't go there. Oh, I mean, I can understand it. But they went back and forth between that scene where you have this little kid thinking walkers are okay.

[00:37:43] And then Carol saying, don't call me mom. And then to Rick packing up the truck to go banish her. And I'm like, man, there's a lot of fucked up shit going on right now. It's so fucked up. And I think Carol knows that something's up a little bit when she's like Maggie wanted to come and Rick's like, need someone to stay. And yeah, it's so awkward. And he probably just thought he wanted to talk though. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. You're not going to kill me.

[00:38:13] Are you Rick? Rick, you're not going to shame me. Like, yeah. Do you have that same knife? Rick, is that your knife? Can I hold it? Can I hold it? My other point that I have is about Daryl. And like, I hadn't remembered Daryl being this salty about Michonne. Like not being a Rick. It seems out of character to me. He's so pissed off. He's a roamer himself. Yeah. He's the first one to be like, I'm just going to go live in the woods and throw fish at women. For six years. Yeah.

[00:38:42] But he's like when he was talking about finding some Jasper for, I want to say Miss Richards in A Block. And Michonne's like, oh, you know everyone really well. And he's like, you'd be surprised what you pick up when you're there for more than two hours. And I'm like, holy shit, Daryl. This is very rude. Yeah. I think this is by the way, more about Michonne than Daryl, but I think it's a little out of character for Daryl. Yeah. Like trying to play on Michonne's like, what is she doing here? You know? Exactly.

[00:39:07] And I think it's interesting to have Michonne have that chat with Tyrese. Tyrese. That's the one about her anger at the governor and how she hasn't let it consume her. But it's also this, I think it's a little bit of a tell that maybe it has. And this is a bit of a reality check for her. Oh yeah. Cause she's like, don't be angry because it'll, um, you'll do stupid things, which made me think, yeah, she was very angry when we first met her. And did she do stupid things?

[00:39:36] Not really, except I would argue going in and killing the governor's daughter was probably didn't help anything, you know? Definitely reckless. Zombie daughter. Definitely reckless. But anyway, then he, she, then Tyrese turns it around. Aren't you mad about the governor? And she's like, Oh, I was, but not anymore. Well, why are you still going out? Look for him. And she goes, I don't know. And then she starts hacking at the bushes, just like he was kind of. Tyrese ruined it. You brought it back.

[00:40:06] You brought the anger back. Um, but it made her realize, so maybe I am just reacting here, which, you know, honestly is probably not a bad idea to patrol and see if he's around because look what ends up happening. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I just thought that was an interesting detail to pick out that Daryl's going through some stuff. This is when Daryl is still like expresses himself a little bit though. Um, because like in later seasons, this would have all just been grunts, but this is, I

[00:40:33] kind of enjoyed seeing a bit of, yeah, I think I enjoyed seeing a bit of range from Reedus here. And I think his reaction to Bob is very understandable. Um, and his feeling of, I think he maybe feels weirdly not quite jealous of Michonne, but maybe he's feeling he should be avenging Merle more. I don't know. Maybe there's a bit of resentment there. I don't know. But it's interesting to see that, um, that dynamic play out.

[00:40:59] I was trying to think, is this, do we have the same Daryl now in the Daryl show? Cause, uh, I feel like he has to talk more now cause he has his show, but he's still pretty similar. I would say, you know, the one scene that stands out is that torture scene where he was suddenly like a Batman villain or something. But yeah, you're like, really you're the Joker now. Okay. Like I'm going to make this bed. So disappear. Shut up, Daryl. No, you're not. Um, like, don't be stupid. Um, yeah.

[00:41:29] So that was my, my Daryl points. All right. Uh, I think I'm actually done. So do you have any notes? I'm on notes. Or do you have another point? No, I've got notes too. Um, I liked the pardon or dust, um, on Sam and Anna's car kind of maybe indicates that they are slightly dopey. Um, a bit, a bit kinda quirky. Um, I did wonder how Anna, how they managed to get her leg off in that way. It looked like it had been cut clean off, but her body was on the other side of the road.

[00:41:59] So I was a little bit confused about how that came to pass. Um, the music at the end is Sharon Van Eaton, Serpents. And Sharon Van Eaton turns up in Yellow Jackets soundtrack as well, which is nice. She does a few times and I don't think she really registered to me here because I thought I discovered her on when she had songs on Yellow Jackets. And I've been listening to her more since that. And especially this one song, 17, listen to it a lot. I love 17.

[00:42:29] Yeah. This one, her voice is very stylized in this one. I'm like, Oh, I, that's not who I would have thought it was. Cause 17 is much more, I don't know, like Chrissy Hines style or something. It's, it feels a bit different. Um, but I remember this song really clearly, but like you, I just didn't twig that it was her. I didn't make the connection. Um, yeah, those are my notes. I've, I do have timeline and IMDB, but those are my, that's my main bit. Okay.

[00:42:56] So as you said, Matthew Negretti wrote this one, Negretti rhymes with spaghetti and, uh, went on to do walking dead world beyond. And I tried to see if he had anything new and it didn't show anything. Um, yeah, hopefully he will. So I thought it would be fun. Just, oh, I mean, just looking on the Wikipedia page at the sort of legendary row of writers who wrote these first six episodes. Yeah.

[00:43:25] First one is Scott Gimple season four, episode one, who of course was a walking to show on her seasons four through eight also ran the ones who live now he's chief content officer for the walking dead. Universe. Episode two, Angela Kang, who was show runner for seasons nine to 11. And she's actually listed as an executive producer on IMDB for Daryl Dixon season three. Uh, I don't know though.

[00:43:52] It's not always accurate, but she was supposed to go off and do this silk, the Spider-Man character, but then that fell through. I was really annoyed that got canceled. I would have liked to have seen her take on that, but you know. Yeah. So maybe she's back coming back into the walking dead fold. I don't know. Maybe. Uh, episode three, Robert Kirkman, who's the creator of the walking dead. He's still working on comics and he, I think he works on his invincible adaptation that's

[00:44:17] on Amazon, which I enjoy a lot, even though it's excessively gory. Invincible. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Uh, Matthew Negretti did four, five is Channing Powell, who was the show runner for tales of the walking dead. Oh yeah. Don't see anything new for her. Channing Powell though. She was great. Yeah. And then six was a Nicole Beatty who left, I think after season four, she wrote for Apple

[00:44:44] TV pluses for all mankind up until recently. And then nothing new after that. Did she? Yeah. It was pretty good gig. Ooh, that's a good, that's quite a nice way to go ahead. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I was happy to see that cause she was the one on here. Well, I've talked to, I actually have talked to a few, but I talked to her a couple of times, interviewed her a couple of times. She's great. She was married to Michael Rappaport for a while, which is weird. Who's Michael Rappaport?

[00:45:12] Because he's a notorious jerk of an actor. Oh, hang on. I'm going to Google him so I know what his face looks like. Hang on. Hang on. Michael Rappaport. Michael Rappaport. I think you'll recognize him. Oh, that dude. Ew. Right. Oh, he was in something I watched recently. I don't remember what it was. Yeah. What was he in recently? Something big. I feel like. Yeah. You see it on there? What are you looking on? Fallout. He was Titus. What was he in that?

[00:45:42] God, I put too much stuff in my memory since then. Yeah. Yeah. I remember him being in that. Okay. Anyway, let me go on with my other notes. Daryl sees vomit on the floor inside, I think the auto shop. And he goes, that's puke. Those douche bags in the vines took themselves out holding hands. Kumbaya style. I'm like, man, they're insensitive, man. But he judges them for having killed themselves. And then Bob sticks up for them. He really does.

[00:46:12] He really does. That's an end. Daryl's got stuff going on in this episode. That's right. Like there's stuff happening. What's up, Matt DeGretty? No, I'm just kidding. I know. Come on, Matt DeGretty. Be more respectful, damn it. I thought it was fun to see lately Michonne teasing Daryl. Like she said, she got fleas from him last week. And then this week, that thing with the Jasper or whatever, it's a good color. It brings out your eyes. Yeah. She's trying to get back in his good graces. She's like, please, let's be pals again. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:43] For some reason, it tickled me seeing Zed's coming out of the bushes. It felt like a far side comic, like honey, call the exterminator. Yeah. I like that. It was so weird. They were very well done as well. I really enjoyed that. Mm-hmm. They should have got some hedge trimmers. Yeah. Yeah. Bob says the zombies are infected.

[00:47:11] I think in the, they were at the veterinary college by this point. He says these ones are infected like the ones at the prison and they could get sick from them. So I guess the sickness does spread via Zed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think I was kind of like, I think Bob has a point. I don't think the show is going to adhere to these rules, but he does have a point. Like you don't want viscera spraying all over you when there's a frigging pandemic on your hands. But you know, whatever, whatever.

[00:47:34] Well, I, I, I do think that the reason why Gabriel lost his eye is because he got some zombie blood in there and he got infected or something. Yeah. I think, uh, Rick gives his watch to Sam and it just reminded me how there's a lot of watches in the walking dead. So I tried to think of all of them. We have Dale with his watch talking about time at the campfire, the quarry, um, Herschel's family pocket watch.

[00:48:03] She passed along to Glenn and now I think it's with Maggie. Um, Rick's watch here that he's almost never without. I think he gets it back at terminus, right? Carol swipes it for him at terminus. Oh, okay. That's one of the clues that they're in the lineup. She sees Herschel's watch and Rick's watch out on the table of trinkets. Cool. I got a replica of that cause I was Rick for Halloween years ago. Amazing. Kind of like that. Uh, I lost it.

[00:48:31] So maybe I should go trekking on a railroad track and see if I can find it. I'll swipe it for you next time I'm wrestling you from the cannibals. And there's Ed's watch that Carol gives to Rick. Those are the only ones I can think of. Yeah. And it all ties into that time that you may spend and enjoy and forget and things like that, which I love. Right. And you would think at first, do you need a watch in the zombie apocalypse? But here they want to meet back in two hours. And I read online someone was saying, well, maybe you'd want to know right when the sun's

[00:49:01] going to go down so you can, you know, make sure to be close to home or something. Yeah. I think it's not so much what the two hours are. It's that two hours pass kind of thing. So yeah, it doesn't matter if the clock's wrong. And what matters is you can gauge the two hours have passed there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rick's right hand is bandaged. I had to look it up because I forgot, but he injured it, punching Tyrese when he flew off the handle. Rick did. Anyway, I couldn't help but think about ones who live.

[00:49:31] Spoiler coming that Rick loses his other hand and then cauterizes the stump inside a burning walker. Remember that? Yeah, he does. It's badass. And I guess that's all I got. What's the burning stump? What have I got? Let's have a look. I've got that Elvis hunker hunk of burning stump. Woo! Um, anyway, sorry, not very proops.

[00:49:58] Uh, I've got the price of gas when Daryl, Tyrese, Michonne and Bob are looking for transportation is 4377, but the numbers are turned upside down. It spells hell backwards. Hmm. Um, at the veterinary school when faced with the choice to open the chained door or face the infected walkers, the group chooses the latter. When they go through the double doors, they leave them wide open, allowing the infected to follow. The wise move would have been to close the outward swaying doors behind them to cover their

[00:50:27] escape since the season 4 walkers would simply push futilely against the doors and be unable to pass. I like when people come into IMDB just with their thoughts about how it can be an American. A little like, blog. Um, the backpack worn by Carol in this episode is the one, uh, lifted from the dead hitchhiker in season 3 episode clear. It's the orange one? Really? Yeah, apparently. I thought it was a different colour. I don't know if that's true. Apparently.

[00:50:56] Before Rick and Carol part ways, they discover the girl Anna, whom they found holed up in her house with her boyfriend Sam being consumed by walkers. Her boyfriend Sam is not seen and no indication as to what happened to him. Mysterious since Rick handed him a gun with instructions to fire off warning shots if trouble arose. Sam makes a cameo in the season 5 premiere and we find out what happened to him. I don't know if we find out what happened, but we find out that he's in the wrong, the bad position at the trough. The wrong end of the trough. Yeah.

[00:51:25] We see him go. We see him go. Poor old Sam. That's what I, that's what stands out to me about Sam in The Walking Dead is just being at the wrong end of the trough. Yep. Poor Sam. An ignominious end. Anything else? Um, I've got timeline day 523. So just a day later than our last episode elsewhere. Governor takes charge of his new camp in an episode that I can't wait to see. I don't know about you.

[00:51:55] Do you know what Peter said to me unironically in the car? He's like, Oh, well, I mean, you've got those governor episodes coming up and they're pretty good. And I was like, who are you? See, I, um, remember thinking they were interesting, but not, I don't know. I don't remember. I remember liking them more than most people, but not loving them, I guess is the way to put it. But now I'm curious to see how I'll respond. Cause I don't remember much about them. Well, Peter bloody loves them.

[00:52:24] Apparently, you know, those moments where you're like, do I even know who you are? Anyway, that was one of those for me. Um, but yeah, that's my, that's my trivia section wrap up. Okay. Only on the walking dead. Would you see someone eating a corpse and look at your watch? Cause you need to be somewhere soon. Only in the walking dead is getting your five a day fruit, a life or death task.

[00:53:37] Infected news. So speaking of infected, I finished my playthrough of the last of us two. It was great. I did it in, I think 28 hours, which was one hour less than the last time, but I thought, Oh, I'm so good at this now. I'm sure it's way less. And it turned out not to be that, that much less, but anyway, very much enjoyed playing it. I'm so ready to watch season two, but I have to wait three months.

[00:54:06] Um, so I'm watching this two hour documentary on the making of the game, which was made by the studio naughty dog. And it's so good. It goes really deep into the psychology of the game and all the mechanics of how they made it and a bunch of other behind the scenes stuff. And it's free on YouTube and I'll put a link in the show notes, but it's very spoilery. So if you haven't played the game and don't want to be spoiled on things that might happen in season two, definitely don't watch it. If you have played the game, I very highly recommend it. It's so good. Amazing.

[00:54:36] I will avoid the spoilers. Yeah. You can watch it after, after, uh, the last of us showrunner Craig Mazin talked with deadline a while back about why season two is only seven episodes. Um, he said the story material that we got from part two of the game is way more than the story material that was in the first game. So part of what we had to do from the start was to figure out how to tell that story across seasons. When you do that, you look for natural break points. And as we laid it out this season, the natural break point felt like it came after seven episodes.

[00:55:06] We just want to put people's minds at ease that the idea that this season coming up is a little bit shorter than the first one is not because we're taking less time to tell the stories. It's because we want to take more time. The story that we're telling is much bigger than the story of season one. There's just a lot more going on. It's a lot harder to produce, but we want every episode to feel like its own blockbuster, to be honest with you. I trust Craig Mazin. Yeah. So far he hasn't let us down. I don't think. No, I trust him.

[00:55:34] Uh, the walking dead deluxe, which is that monthly colorized reprint of the walking dead comic that has new comments from Robert Kirkman in the back is at number one Oh five, where Negan's harem is shown. Ooh, lovely. And an article on comic book.com says, quote, when Negan's quote wife, Amber is caught with her former boyfriend, Mark, he provokes Negan's ire and his iron. Negan reminds Amber that her position is quote completely voluntary telling the crying girl,

[00:56:04] quote, I don't want anyone here if they don't want to be. But if Amber leaves him for Mark, Negan warns quote, you'll forfeit your privileges and go back to whatever job you had before Sherry brought you to us. What you can't do. He screams is cheat on him. So what's it going to be going back to Mark back to earning points working for your supper? Are you staying? A sobbing Amber is bullied into staying in Marcus scarred publicly to forever bear the shame of his actions on his face as Negan says.

[00:56:31] So in the back matter, Robert Kirkman said, quote, I'd say more than anything else, at least on social media, the harem became one of the most controversial aspects of this comic, even more than some of the upcoming bits with the whispers, which always surprised me. I certainly have a line. I won't cross. You can look to Garth Ennis's cross series to see a far more brutal and unforgiving exploration of the apocalypse. The walking dead is extremely tame by comparison, but that was by design. The harsh elements that did make it in.

[00:56:59] I always tried to make sure they were a reflection of life. I'd always argue, no matter how dark things got in this series, you could always pick up a newspaper and read far more gruesome things happening for real. The world is a dark place. And I didn't want to shy away from portraying that for fear of offending anyone. But I'm like, I didn't. My criticism wasn't that he put it in there. It was that they didn't really address it in the show. Negan never apologized or atoned for this particular thing.

[00:57:25] And online, Jeffrey Dean Morgan tried to say that Negan never even slept with any of them, which is ridiculous. And because, you know, you had them going and taking pregnancy tests. And then I was glad that Ezekiel did mention something about it in the final one of the final few episodes. Yeah. Which I wouldn't be surprised if Kari Payton asked for that dialogue because I know he had thoughts about it. But I feel like Kirkman really didn't address it. I don't know. Maybe people were complaining that it was even in there at all to him.

[00:57:54] I just find a slideshow of some of the Walking Dead deluxe covers from the Negan lineup and it's pretty brutal in color. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that they're having these conversations. But yeah, the harem is beyond the pale. There's just no... Yeah. They should have...

[00:58:17] The whole Negan thing on the show, they should have either toned him down from the start or hired an actor who was happy to be a bad guy. I think that's what it comes down to. Yeah. I think there is... They just got... They got tangled up in trying to smooth it out and it just didn't really work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the comics, the way they redeemed him is he was... If I remember right, it's fading from memory, but if I remember right, he was apologetic for everything.

[00:58:45] And they said, okay, now you're banished forever. Yeah. So he was more apologetic than he was in the show and the punishment was worse still than what he got in the show. And I thought that works for me. All that works. Yeah. They crammed that kind of scene into when Lauren Cohen was leaving the show, but it was too early. It didn't make any sense. Like it just... Yeah. It's... It's nuts. And he never really addressed the stuff with the women either and the ironing of the faces and all that. Yeah.

[00:59:14] No, none of that was addressed at all. Alright, let's move on to Lister Mones Grunts and Grunts. Becky Anderson says, this was a great episode. This show is always good when we get to watch the characters venturing into uncharted territory, be it going to a new place or on a personal level, having to make rough choices. Watching Bob struggle with his alcoholism was hard.

[00:59:41] I love seeing the post-apocalyptic world and the eeriness of the quiet. Very horror movie-esque. There was also a lot of great dialogue this episode. Carol's talk with Lizzie, Rick's talk with Carol, etc. Also, it's always too cool to see Robin Taylor, Robin Lord Taylor on the screen. Not show related, but to all the people out there feeling angry or afraid with everything that happened on the 21st of January, I am too. As Carol said in this episode, you fight it and you fight it. You don't give up. You're here. You're here.

[01:00:10] Thanks, Becky. You're here. Thank you, Becky. Well said. Andy Fisher says, okay, who else was totally blindsided by Rick's decision to exile Carol at the end of this episode? Not me. I've seen this show before. Yeah. The first time through. I can't remember. I think I was pretty blindsided by it. I don't think I expected it. Do you remember? It's been a long time. I remember being surprised. I don't know if I was blindsided, but I was definitely surprised. Yeah.

[01:00:39] I remember it being a big moment like, whoa, whoa. It really got my attention now. Uh, what an acting masterclass this episode is. Daryl isn't given many scenes to shine in the walking dead, but he really does here. It's fascinating to watch Rick through this episode as he figures out if he's going to exile Carol. And I'm struck by how brave Carol is accepting his edict, knowing that this is essentially a death sentence. I don't know if I agree with that. She's pretty capable, but yeah. I mean, he says that. I don't think he's lying what he says to her.

[01:01:06] I think he's trying to make himself feel better, but he's not. I don't think he lies. Yeah. And I think he's, he's pretty right on. Like she'll, I mean, you never know, but there's a pretty good chance that she'll be okay. Also, he gives her kit. He doesn't leave her high and dry. Yeah. Uh, talk about sad episodes, betrayal, disease, death, exile, alcoholism. Thank you, Scott Gimple. Again, this is exactly why I love season four so much. And the music is incredible. The song that ends the episode is called serpents by Sharon Von Etten.

[01:01:37] He he's giving the lyrics here. It was a close call sitting in the back of the room with a bowl you had owned, but they didn't know close in on my black eye. I feel safe at times. Certain emblems. Tell me it's time. Serpents in my mind, looking for your crimes. Everything changes. I don't want mine to this time. I don't really understand any of this. Honestly, you enjoy sucking on dreams. So I will fall asleep with someone other than you.

[01:02:03] I had a thought you would take me seriously and listen on serpents in my mind. I'm searching for your crimes. It's just the same thing. Yeah. Trying to forgive your crimes. Everyone changes in time. I hope he changes this time. It sounds like someone who's been abused, right? Yeah. You'll stay frozen in time. Collage and girls controlling minds. Yeah. Mm. Yep. Five slices and a ring. Five pizza slices and a ring, y'all. Pizza slices and a ring. Okay. Thanks, Andy.

[01:02:33] Here's Carly. Hi, Jason and Lucy. This is Carly. I think this episode, episode four is about how the people you trust whom you have already bonded with can become a threat. Carol is a threat because she doesn't respect the community decision making process. And Tyrese is a threat because his grief makes him take risks. Mm-hmm. And these are characters that we love. And it's really scary when they start putting other people in danger.

[01:03:01] But they do what they do because they care about others. So that's really confusing. Like, how do you predict when someone will suddenly turn into someone dangerous? And I wonder, do you think Rick knew he was going to leave Carol out there or was he using the time with her to make up his mind? And then, you know, Renee said in a previous episode, she didn't like that saying we all have a job to do.

[01:03:29] But I think it's about trusting each other to do what needs to be done to keep the community going. You know, they have to do their job and Carol can't be trusted to do her job. And that's why she has to be banished from the community. Anyway, talk to you next week and don't get bit. Oh, that's amazing. Carly, thank you for writing in.

[01:03:49] It's kind of like what you're saying makes me think of just interpersonal relationships in any group, whether you're at work or in your family, except the stakes are much higher on The Walking Dead. They're life and death. But still, you got to deal with personalities all the time. And sometimes you're not getting along with one person in particular or they're throwing up roadblocks or whatever. But this is just on a life and death scale. Yeah, the stakes are so much higher. Yeah.

[01:04:19] Um, Rachel Teal Edwards says, you can't be a farmer, Rick. No, you can be a farmer, Rick. Take that back, Rick. Your dream is on. You can be a farmer, Rick. You can't just be a farmer. This is possibly the only fair point Carol makes throughout the entire episode. I'm really bothered by her pure defensiveness, her defiance and her willful resistance to understanding Rick's point that killing in Karen David wasn't her call to make. She makes her situation worse by not admitting any fault. I really wanted Rick to say, we have a council for a reason, damn it.

[01:04:48] But he was just so cool, calm and collected the whole time. I think the first time that I saw this, I was shocked that he left her. Watching Daryl lead the group on a mission is so gratifying. The wounded loner, I nearly misread that as wounded loser. And I was like, Rachel, go off. The wounded loner from season two was given a purpose, trusted and shown some love and appreciation. And now he's grown into this capable and confident leader. I love the reference to Mrs. Richard back at the prison and the conversation between Daryl and Michonne.

[01:05:17] Imagining an older lady asking Daryl to keep an out for some Jasper on his run creates a whole picture of Daryl as a beloved, respected, kind, compassionate man. Imagine if he'd actually been having an affair with Mrs. Richards or something. Just that sidebar, Daryl's the love of his life, elderly Mrs. Richards. Rachel goes on. It also makes me flash forward to Alexandria and remember his resistance to becoming a part of that community. Though he secretly wanted to be given a job.

[01:05:44] He seems to have really embraced his role in this life at the prison and let his guard down, only to have it all ripped away. I can't blame him for being hesitant to re-engage with the community in Alexandria. But right now I'm enjoying seeing this side of him. You and me both, Rachel. I enjoy it. I barely remember that. I remember he was hanging out with Aaron a little bit and there seemed to really stark contrast because our characters had been through the ringer by then. And Aaron seemed so like... Bougie. Cut and dry.

[01:06:13] Yeah, slick and everything. Clean, I guess. Clean touch. Thank you, Rachel. I agree with pretty much everything you said there. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Hope you guys are well. I actually really loved this episode. I love when we get to see them go out on runs. Seeing the post-apocalyptic world of The Walking Dead, the background of some of the walkers, like the one in the garage that Bob puts down. Yeah, there was an old guy with teeth that looked really good. Zombie on the floor.

[01:06:39] And then you see pictures of him and his co-workers or something just having a great time. And you could study the background in some of these and really get a story from it. It was incredible. I loved it. I feel like, yeah, Daryl's sass aside, I think it was actually a really cool setup. Yeah, yeah. Billy says, Daryl and Bob having a smoke, the little chats between characters we don't often see communicate, stumbling into other survivors and learning how they've been surviving. It's just brilliant. All of this makes it feel real. I love it.

[01:07:10] I'm not promoting smoking, but Daryl looked cool as fuck smoking in this episode. Bob, not so much. And Rick and Carol's conversation about her killing Karen and David, it made me think. I always relate the character's bad decisions back to Shane and Dale. It always seems the character was either too much like either one of these characters. Like Carol's decision to just kill Karen and David. This is way too much like Shane. And Rick's decision in wanting nothing to do with anything apart from farming was something Dale would have done.

[01:07:39] Interesting, yeah. Morgan is another I can think of either pacifist or a bloodthirsty killer, depending on the day of the week. I have that part. Seeing the walkers at the university also had the flu. Do we know if any other groups we see in the future mention having this flu? I don't remember that. I remember, I think, like I said, Gabriel got sick once, but I don't know. I'd imagine the people the governor eventually ends up with must have had it at some point too.

[01:08:08] Me and my missus are currently doing our own rewatch, but only whilst eating dinner. And we're going to see how long it takes up to finish. We've just watched the season two, episode one, the scene when they're all in the car and Lori's talking about the family trip to the Grand Canyon. And Rick says to Sophia after Carl asks to go one day, we will never go without you and your mom. After watching that scene and then the end of this episode makes me even more sad that Rick has to exile Carol because they have been through a whole lot together.

[01:08:37] But ultimately, I think Rick does the right thing. Anyway, thanks guys. Bye ye. And they get back together. So. Yeah. Hopefully we'll see them reunite too at some point. I really hope so. All right. Here's our good friend Archmaester Renny. Oh, Renny. I really love this episode and I especially love the ending of it with the song Serpents playing over Rick driving and the other group driving.

[01:09:07] I just think that that's visually powerful and I love that song. I had never heard it before the first time I saw this episode. This is the first of several songs that are going to appear in The Walking Dead that many of which I had not known before that I at the time put into a Walking Dead playlist. Nice. And so that's something that I really appreciated was finding this new music from The Walking Dead.

[01:09:34] If you have that publicly like on Spotify or something, let me know. I want to. Put it on the group or something like that. Do it. Just one thing I want to say about last week's episode and this week's episode that drives me a little bit crazy, which is they've gone out on this run. One, to get medications that will help the flu, a form of influenza and what they're looking for is antibiotics.

[01:10:03] That's just not a thing. Antibiotics. Flu is caused by a virus and antibiotics kill bacteria. They affect bacterial illnesses, not viral illnesses. So it just makes me cringe a little bit. They should have raided those medicine cabinets to get all the Theraflu they could find. But I try not to dwell on things like that.

[01:10:28] I love the logistics of survival in the apocalypse and the gloss over so much and get stuff like that wrong. I just have to let it go, let it go, let it go. All right. Thanks. Mike Carroll with Ed's Watch. I love Rennie. That's so good. I don't know. I want to look into that.

[01:10:52] I didn't listen to your message ahead of time, but I feel like they would have done a little research and maybe the characters are just calling it a flu, but it's some kind of a bacterial sickness or I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I know sometimes if you've got something that just won't shift, doctors will give you antibiotics as a kind of Hail Mary, but I don't know. Yeah. I mean, she's right. It is bacterial.

[01:11:17] And, you know, my wife's a doctor, so she's always saying people shouldn't abuse antibiotics because we don't want the bacteria to evolve resistant to have resistance to them. And then they won't work anymore and then we'll be fucked. Yep. All right. I've got Beth Payeri, who says, Indifference is a weird title for this episode because I feel like it's a lot of characters saying exactly what they need, but then they get the opposite.

[01:11:48] Lizzie talks about being afraid and not wanting to lose people. She even accidentally calls Carol mom. Then Carol never comes back. Bob talks to Daryl about how he's the last man standing after watching so many die and how he got Zach killed for a bottle of alcohol. His addiction gives him peace, but it also causes chaos and pain. He asks Daryl, is it really so wrong to want to just end it all? So Daryl tells Bob he's not alone anymore. Daryl essentially giving him hope and an olive branch.

[01:12:15] But then Bob ends up taking another bottle of alcohol, putting his addiction before community and damaging the olive branch that Daryl just gave him. Love that image. Carol says to Rick of the young couple, Carol also says to Rick,

[01:12:47] While picking tomatoes, Carol says to Rick that while she was with Ed, she thought happiness was not being alone. Then Rick ends up banishing her. In the bathroom, Carol tells Rick that she killed Karen and David. She didn't like it, but she did what she thought she had to do for others to survive. But she realises she didn't succeed with her intentions. The only person who gets what they want is Daryl in the end. Michonne and Tyrese talk about anger and vengeance. It's been driving Michonne away from the group, but Daryl's been telling her to stay.

[01:13:16] And she's seeing how anger and pain is causing Tyrese to have a death wish, including his judgement. I think this changes Michonne, who tells Daryl that she's done chasing the governor. Side note, Rick gives the kid the watch, but he never comes back. So later, Carol, Carol, Carol and Carl, Carol gives him hers when she leaves. Call back to season one. Dale had said, I give it to you not that you may remember time, but you may forget it for a moment now and then and not spend all of your breath trying to conquer it.

[01:13:44] Not sure if this is the bigger lesson in the episode, letting go of trying to control their lives. Just let go. I love that, Beth. That's so interesting. I love all those parallels. And just like, yeah, people not getting what they want is such the basis of drama. And it's interesting how as fans, a lot of people wish for the characters to get what they want.

[01:14:09] But if there was a show where everyone got what they want, no one would watch it because it would be boring as hell. Yeah. Right. All right. Got to see that struggle. All right. Here's a call from Renee. Renee. Guys, this is Renee. I'm sorry I didn't get to call in on last week. We were preparing for a snowstorm here in Atlanta, but I want to talk about the outbreak in the prison.

[01:14:36] I watch the show Sweet Home on Netflix and the young lady on there has HIV and she became friends with one of the soldiers. And one of the soldiers, when he went out, he went out to try to find her some medication. And that just made me think about the walking dead and the prison episode. That it wouldn't be the walkers that took out people doing the ZA.

[01:15:05] It would be something as simple as a chronic disease. And let me say that a chronic disease, of course, is not simple. So I'm not trying to minimize it. But a chronic disease is considered manageable. And HIV is considered that now, you know, along with high blood pressure, diabetes, you know, cancer could be a chronic disease, thyroid problems. I have hypothyroid. So I take medication for that.

[01:15:31] And, you know, that would take me out before the walkers during the apocalypse because I wouldn't have access to my medication and it will cause all kind of problems. So when they go to get the medication, it's like a what? How in the world would you leave all of that medication? They have more than enough room and enough time to put all of that medication in their book bags, in whatever bags they had. They had more than enough time to grab all of that stuff.

[01:16:00] So as for Rick, Banish and Carol. I just think what that brings up for me is how I always find it unbelievable there would be anything left anywhere. I just think people would loot the hell out of everything, you know, because scarcity, like that's the last of whatever it is. So I find it hard to believe, even though it's a veterinary hospital and maybe counterintuitive, that still there would be any drugs left there or anywhere else.

[01:16:29] I guess we just, yeah, you just don't know. I just don't know. Yeah. I love Rick. I love him so much. And last week when he took his shirt off, it was like, oh my gosh, Rick Rimes, that is my man. But me loving Rick is not just because he's so good looking.

[01:16:47] And it's because like Michonne said in The Ones Who Live, when she told Rick that what she loved the most about RJ, well, what she loved about RJ is that he has Rick's big kind heart. And that's what I love about Rick. He's just so kind. He seems to love everyone. Not perfect. He has flaws just like everyone else. But he's just a good person. But Rick banishing Carol, he was wrong for that.

[01:17:18] Carol was wrong for killing those two people. She had no business doing that. She had no business making that decision. But Rick also should not have made the decision to banish Carol without consulting with the other people. He was wrong as well. I don't care if Carol is able to take care of herself. Carol is family. He should not have did that. Now, me personally, Tyrese would have had to go before Carol leave because Carol is my day one.

[01:17:47] She that's my rider. She was with me from the beginning. So no, because I understand they had to separate her and Tyrese because Tyrese was going to go ham. However, if Tyrese could not get his mind right, he would have had to leave again before I banish Carol. I have a soft spot for Carol because she's a domestic abuse survivor.

[01:18:09] And I feel like that is because she has finally come into her own and she realized that she didn't fight back then. But she's a fighter now. She does not want anyone else to come off as being weak because of what she has been through. And that's what I admire about her. I love that about Carol. But already, I will talk to you guys later. Oh, I forgot to mention. I'm sorry. I was talking about Michonne and Judith.

[01:18:38] I love it. Love it. Love it. Michonne, man, I'm telling you, the way her mouth was trembling. It's like, wow. This lady, Danai Guerrera, man, top tier. And shout out to the ones who live for being number two on Netflix. And guess what? It's headed to number one. You know, it's headed to number one. So boom, shakalaka, boom to all the Rashawn haters out there who do not see the chemistry for whatever reason. All righty.

[01:19:08] All righty. Peace and love. I will talk to you guys later. Bye. Bye. Peace and love, Renee. Bye. It's so cool that the ones who live has been so successful in Netflix. I love it. Yeah. I'm thinking about what she said about Rick making that decision on his own. I've got two thoughts. One is, is he trying to protect Carol and Judith and do what he thinks? I mean, ostensibly, yes. Or is he trying to protect Carol by not revealing what she did to the wider community? I mean, he thinks that Tyrese will try and kill her.

[01:19:38] But does he tell him, though, when he comes back? I can't remember. And what does he think? Is he worried that the committee would, the council would want to do something worse? Surely not. They're all nice people. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, that's the part that I personally find the most compelling of an argument against what he did, that he did it on his own without telling anyone else. Yeah. I think that wasn't cool. But I, Renee, I agree with you.

[01:20:08] One of his greatest characteristics is his compassion. And I think that's exactly why he did it, because he doesn't want Carol to kill anyone else. And he has compassion for people like Karen and David and also Sam and Anna and everybody else. Yeah. His own kids. Yeah. All right. That is our show. Episode 621. Thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:20:36] I hope that you are okay. Yeah. I hope everyone's holding in there. Next episode, Walking Dead, season four, episode five, internment. I think this is finally the one that's all nasty in that sick room. I believe you pronounce it internet. No, I'm joking. It's internet. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com.

[01:21:02] It was a little jarring to hear someone refer to the internet this episode when Rick asked Carol where she learned how to put the shoulder back into place. She said internet. And I'm like, I don't know if the internet has ever been acknowledged to exist on Walking Dead. Yeah. The YouTube. YouTube would have existed. Wikipedia would have existed. So yeah. I'm going to go up on YouTube and look how to pop my shoulder back into place. I actually had to watch that bit with the sound off the second time because I'm just like, oh, gross.

[01:21:32] So go to our website, podcastica.com while you're there. You can check out our other podcasts. We have a new one all about how to pop your shoulder into place. It's got sound effects. It's called gross medical noises and it'll just be me barfing while we listen to videos of people putting bones back in. This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Jessica Cruz who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you so much, Jessica. I appreciate that. Jessica. Yeah.

[01:22:01] Uh, we, let's see what's going on. I, I did, I just put out fairly recently that interview with Madeline, which I think turned out really well. The artist that I've mentioned a couple of times. I'm excited to listen to it. Yeah. Let's do it. Let me know what you think. She's got a whole ton of different interests and then I hope to do that hip hop episode that I keep talking about soon this month too. I've just been really busy, but we, we got some stuff going on there. Amazing. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[01:22:30] Don't get bit ginger Morris. Thanks for listening.