625: "Dead Weight" (TWD S4E7 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. I'm running things now, and I will do everything it takes to protect this camp. Now you join me. I promise you, you'll never have to worry about whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing. Because we will do.

[00:01:00] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Rebecca. Rebecca! And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 625. And this episode, we're covering The Walking Dead, Season 4, Episode 7, Dead Weight. Dead Weight. We don't have any dead weight on this podcast, right? No way. Live bait, dead weight. Welcome, Rebecca. So good to have you on. Rebecca's in Melbourne, Australia, right?

[00:01:27] Yeah. Talking of pronunciations, it's Melbourne. Melbourne. Melbourne. Yeah. Melbourne. Not Melbourne. Melbourne. I know, I was saying Glasgow too, but I was corrected that it's Glasgow, right? Sorry. You're just not allowed back. Glasgow. Oh. Well, maybe we can meet in McCown, Georgia sometime. McCown. Bacon. Bacon. So, Rebecca, I usually, when we have new guests on, ask them a little bit about like

[00:01:56] when they became, when you became a fan of the show and how you found the podcasts. Yeah. So I started watching between seasons four and five. So I did like a big binge of the first four seasons in a couple of months. Did you just like hear people talking about it and decided, oh, I need to check this out or what? Yeah. So, well, initially my mum told me about it. I think it was around 2012 when she came to visit and she was like, oh, I've seen this new show. I think it was probably maybe during season two at that point. And she said, oh, it's about zombies.

[00:02:25] And I was like, oh, zombies, really? Like I was like, oh, yeah, my mum. So I was like, oh, I don't know. Zombies doesn't really sound like my thing. And she said, oh, no, no, what? She's got Andrew Lincoln in it. And she knew that I liked Andrew Lincoln because, you know, he's quite well known in the UK. And so I kind of was on my radar, but I never really got around to it. And then I started dating my now husband and he was watching it and he kept telling me how good it was. So eventually I thought, okay, I'll give it a go. And then I was just hooked. You went back to the beginning.

[00:02:55] So wait, you started in where it was at the time? No, I started from season episode one, season one. And then I just caught up so that when season five started, I was watching it weekly by that point. That was like peak, peak greatness. It really was. It really was the best then, I think. And then the podcasts. Oh, yes. So, well, I initially found the Talking Dead podcast with Chris and Jason. Same with Lucy. Yeah.

[00:03:23] I think quite a few of your listeners found you that way. And then it was one of your crossover episodes with Karen. And I thought, oh, these guys are quite good. So I started listening to you weekly. And then I don't know if you remember, actually, I was unemployed for about a year because I had some visa issues and I wasn't able to work. And to fill the time, I decided to do a rewatch. And I think at this point, there was five seasons out. So I did a rewatch. And then I went back to your podcast to the very first episode and listened to all of your podcasts.

[00:03:53] And I think I said to you before that year, I was unemployed. My mental health wasn't great. And I had a lot of problems with immigration. And I felt like you and Karen really helped me through that really tough time. It really did. It was like, I think you underestimate sometimes the positive impacts you have on people's lives. So yeah, just wanted to say thank you in person. Oh, that's really nice. I mean, I'm sure we balance it out by pissing some people off, but. Oh yeah, I'm sure we do. Just kidding. That's so nice to hear. Thank you so much. No, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I know.

[00:04:23] I mean, you've been around so long. I feel like this is a long time coming. And Rebecca and I actually did a Zedhead show a few years back now about musicals. So that was really fun too. Yeah, top five musicals. Yeah, I think it was a Patreon podcast. All right. Oh, what was number one? Oh, sorry. Oh, gosh, it's been so long. I can't remember. Yeah, I couldn't put mine in order because I was struggling to get it down to five as it was. There was no way I could choose one. But I can't remember who. I'm just picturing the governor going zibbity doo or whatever.

[00:04:53] Oh yeah, that was my number one. You have to go and listen. You have to subscribe to Patreon. I will. I will. So. You have to go and subscribe to the Patreon. I'm talking to the listeners, not you. Okay. So, just also, you said, I mean, I asked you which episode you'd like to come on. You gave me a range. And these two governor ones were two of them, which was very interesting. I was like, yeah. So what about that? Why did you pick this one?

[00:05:22] Um, honestly, I, I would have preferred last week. Um, I loved last week's this week. Initially on first watch, I was a bit like, Oh, I'm not sure what I think of it. It felt like there was a lot of plot holes and a lot of things that I just didn't quite sit well with me. Um, but actually on second watch, it grew on me a lot more, but, um, but what on the initial watch that, you know, sort of 10 to 12 years ago, um, I just found these two episodes.

[00:05:52] I just found them really, really interesting. And I think it might've helped. Like I said, that I binged the first full season. So to me, I wasn't missing this prison for three weeks while they went into this deep dive. Um, and to me, it's kind of really enriched the character. Um, it sort of gave him more layers, made him not just this, this evil villain, but actually you got to see particularly last week, a lot of vulnerability.

[00:06:17] Um, what I thought on initial rewatch, initial watch was, was maybe going to be a redemption story. Um, so I just found it made him a really interesting character to watch. And then obviously it pays off next week with, you know, the climax at the prison. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, that's one thing. So I, I went, I don't usually do this, but this time I looked at my notes from when we cover this back in 2013, you know, over 10 years ago now.

[00:06:43] And I wrote a great episode, tense, thrilling, unpredictable, great horror movie segment in the beginning. Interesting and kind of horrifying to see how the governor makes his way to being the leader of the camp 4.25 gacks. And, um, I, so I feel pretty much the same now, except one thing in hindsight is I do think it's weird to spend two episodes on the governor only have him killed off in the next one. That's a little, that's a little weird to spend so much time on this character.

[00:07:12] But, but then again, I guess it's sort of the, a weird version of what they do with our hero characters sometimes, right? They give them their big moment and then they kill them off and it's kind of the same thing, only it's a villain. So I guess it's sort of similar. Yeah. What about you, Lucy? How was it for you to watch it again? I was just smiling because Rebecca had a really similar experience in that the first time I rewatched this, I was like, I didn't even pay that much attention.

[00:07:38] And I rewatched it today and I was like, okay, like it's, it's better than I remembered. Cool. Um, it feels like an episode of a different show at certain points. I'm like, Oh, we're just in a different, I don't know, like it's like a parallel walking dead, like over dinner. Tonight. Um, we just finished watching the first episode of yellow jackets that just came out. So good. Peter, Peter says, I didn't know that come out. Thank you. I watched that. Yeah. He was talking about something to do with the walking dead. And I thought it was to do with yellow jackets.

[00:08:06] He's like, do you think they made the camp deliberately look like the camp from season one? And I was like, eh, what? I was like, Oh, you're talking about the governor. And then I started thinking about it and I was like, yeah, it is kind of like a rehash of Rick's group with the RV. Yeah. It's similar. That was quite interesting. Like what if that set up had continued longer, blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah. So I, I'm, there's more to it than I thought there'd be. Cool. Yeah. I'm, I'm into talking about it. I think. Sweet.

[00:08:34] Uh, Rebecca, would you like to read the plot summary? Oh, yes. Uh, okay. So it says, while still in flashback, Martinez recognizes the governor has taken a new identity and privately explains how he found this new group and that arsenal of weapons. The governor senses the governor senses, the governor senses the group is weak. And with the power of the arsenal believes he can secure the prison for a haven for the Chamblers. He kills Martinez and his right hand man taking charge of the group and organizes the group to head to the prison.

[00:09:01] The governor observing the prison season shown in her show outside its fence burning the corpses of the infected. And aims his gun at her. Okay. You're Rebecca. You're the guest of honor. So what's your first point? Um, so my first point is going to be the governor or Brian's motivation to lead. So when I first watched it, what I didn't like about it on the first watch was that it

[00:09:30] seemed to be a really big change from last week's, you know, broken shell of a man grieving show of vulnerability. Looks like he was trying to redeem himself to by the end of this episode, being back to being the governor. And to me initially was like, that was too quick. How did he transition so quickly? So I went back and sort of had to think about it and rewatched it. And actually there's quite a lot of things that happened that motivate him to make this change throughout this episode.

[00:09:57] So just wanted to talk like about a few of these things that might have motivated him Lead him down that progression, right? And actually when you watch, I watched it the second time is actually it was a lot slower than I realized on first watch. So I think obviously the, the main motivator, he wants to protect his new family, his little girl, his little penny substitute. He's got with Megan. And obviously that's the main motivator. But there's quite a few things that happen.

[00:10:26] So first of all, I think when they go to that cabin and they find the guy whose family have turned into biters. Yeah. Yeah. He, they find the guy who looks like he's committed suicide and he's holding a photo of his family. And that photo of his family is very reminiscent of the photo that the governor had last week of him with his family.

[00:10:49] So I think it kind of strikes a chord with him, you know, that he can sort of see a similarity there and that this guy failed to protect his family. And I feel like to him, it's like a bit of a warning. If I don't protect my family, this is going to happen to me. And I think it brings back a lot of memories. Obviously he's lost his wife and a child before. And I think it brings back those memories of, and he's scared that it's going to happen to him again. So I feel like that's like one of his motivations.

[00:11:16] Um, and the fact that he keeps the photo, he puts in his back pocket and then throughout the episode, you actually see him looking at it again. So I think that really strikes a chord with him. Um, a bit later after the cabin, when they're all having drinks outside the RV and Lily and Tara and everyone's there. And Lily is talking to Martinez about how she likes his camp. And she makes a comment like, this is the first time I felt safe. Yeah. That's so interesting. Cause his face is like, bitch says what?

[00:11:45] Yeah, exactly. Like you see him and he's like taken aback by it and always looks a little bit crestfallen. Like, but am I not keeping safe enough? Maybe I need to up my game. Maybe I need to do more to protect you. But yeah, you definitely see him being like, what? Um, so I think that affects me. It makes him think I'm not doing enough. I need to do more. Um, obviously later on when they're playing golf off the RV, Martinez makes the, um, foolish comment of admitting that he's not sure he can keep.

[00:12:15] Keep them all safe. Um, and again, it's something else that motivating him, like, what if Martinez isn't going to keep them safe? I need to do something. I need to step up my game because he's not going to do it. Um, then sort of soon after that, they stumble across the other camp. The next day they find that that camp's been murdered, presumably by strangers. Again, it's another reminder to him. We're not safe here. Like we can't just sit here resting on our laurels.

[00:12:43] We need to, I need to do something. And he does do something at that point. He doesn't go, I'm going to be the governor. He's like, he gets his family. He's like, we're leaving. We're leaving now. He's kind of like, we're not safe here. So it kind of goes into another point that I'll make later, but it feels like he's resisting being the governor a little bit. He just wants to keep his family safe. He's trying to leave. He drives away with them. They obviously have to turn back because, you know, unforeseen circumstances means that he can't actually escape.

[00:13:12] It's one of those fear of the walking dead style. Just pretend he can't get out of here. Okay. Yes. Well, it did seem like, yeah, exactly. We were kind of like, wasn't that convenient for the plot that there was a mud pit full of zombies. He didn't say last, uh, last episode we'll go where the biters let us or something like that. So they kind of set that up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It was suspend disbelief. Yes. I think so. There was a few, few little things like that. I think that was one of them, but it was a cool. It was a cool scene.

[00:13:42] So, you know, it was, um, and then I think as well, I noticed, um, he was observing a lot of this episode, like between like Martinez, Mitch and Pete, um, he was sizing everyone up. He was, he was, he was taking everything in. He, you know, a lot of the interaction with Pete and Mitch. Um, I think he realized that, you know, Pete, in his opinion, Pete was a weak leader.

[00:14:08] Pete was, um, you know, he, like he said, I think he makes a comment later on is that, you know, people like your brother, uh, tries to do the right thing, even if it gets their own people killed. And I think that's what he sees in Pete. He's in, well, Pete's not going to be good enough. So, and I think, um, he, that's sort of the same, uh, estimation that Shane had of Rick. There's an echo of that.

[00:14:33] You know, I also find myself thinking about Merle and Daryl, because I know we were talking, was it us? You know what I did this week? It was in, sorry, sidebar. I'm not going to interrupt you. Rebecca, I was listening to the talking dead recap. And I'm now like, did we say it or did Chris and Jason say it? Um, they're, they're a little behind us. They're still in season three. And I think they were talking about Merle. It was Chris and Jason. And they were talking about why would the governor bother with Merle or why would anyone

[00:15:02] at the prison not sympathize with Daryl? Anyway, all of this to say, when he goes to see Mitch and kind of manipulates him into becoming his right hand man, I was like, this is like Daryl and Merle, isn't it? Mitch is like Merle here. I've got a point on this later. Yeah. He's like the renegade firecracker who's going to do mad shit. And he's like, I want this bulldog chained. Whereas Pete is the more, Pete's obviously not as cool as Daryl in any way, shape or form, but it's that similar dynamic.

[00:15:31] So yeah, just to agree with you there emphatically. I'm looking forward to your later point as well. By the way, let me just mention since talking dead has come up a couple of times. I messaged Chris the other day and we've talked about doing a crossover since we're both doing rewatches. And I'm like, let's do a crossover where we just talk about some of the highlights of doing the rewatch and things that have come up that were unexpected or whatever. And he hasn't written me back. So if you listen to both shows, let Chris know. Chris, he's ghosting you. Come on Chris, man.

[00:16:01] You're Canadian. Be better. Okay, Rebecca. Back to your point. Yeah, I think actually like Lucy, you just summed up the bit I was gonna say about the observations is that he sees Pete as weak. He sees Mitch as useful. Definitely. He knows that he can carry out his dirty work and he's going to need people like Mitch, you know, if he does end up becoming a leader. Yeah.

[00:16:26] And I think sort of the, the last little thing that does it is that when Megan gets attacked by that said when she's at the laundry line. And I think Tara tries to save her and doesn't. And I love that bit when she's like trying to grab the Z by leg and all the like the flesh is like coming up in her hands. It's so gross. It's so gross, but I loved it. And I think again, he's just like, well, I'm the only one who can help like she, you know, she can't save Megan. I'm the only one who could do it.

[00:16:54] And at that point he comes out just very cold, aims the gun, shoots the Z and just walks off. And I think, you know, I think that, you know, all these things lead up to it in that final point. He's like, well, I'm the only one who can, who can save my family. Yeah. Yeah. I do think you're right that at first he wants to just be, try to be good and chill. And the most important thing is having a safe space for his new family and yeah, sizing everyone up.

[00:17:22] But then I also think it's interesting because it's in the governor's nature to be this dominant force. And so there's always tension because he, he, he's not the type to take a backseat and chill out and let someone else lead. So when Mitch is calling him one eye over and over again, you know, I'm like, uh, you're, you're going to get it buddy if you keep that up. And then I just think it's interesting when you throw people together who don't know each other yet and they had to figure out the pecking order.

[00:17:49] You know, it takes a while, not readily apparent who the more dominant in charge types are. Then when Martinez is having him hand him golf balls, like a subordinate, you know, can you pass me one of those? I was like, oh man, you're asking for it. And I'm thinking, did the governor ask Martinez to hand him golf balls before I didn't go back and look, but I know they did hit golf balls off the wall at Woodbury. Um, and then when he turned his back on the governor, I felt scared for him.

[00:18:16] And then rightfully so they didn't let us down big whack. But I think I was watching that. Like, why did the governor do that? You know, I think he decided to kill him as soon as Martinez said something like, oh yeah, I, I, you know, you have this new family, but I would never do that because I don't, you know, I, I don't want them. I don't want to have to go through that again where I lose them. And the governor's like, I'm not going to lose them. Don't you think you can keep us safe? And he goes, well, I'll try, but I'm not sure.

[00:18:43] And you know, the governor is not the type he, he told Megan last week, I'm never going to let anything happen to you. So he doesn't want to risk that again. And so that's where I think that's where he decided, no, you're not good enough. And he whacked him. And then, um, and he's saying, I don't want it. I don't want it as he's dragging him to the zombie pit. I think he means he doesn't want the responsibility of leadership again. He had talked about himself as another person, as the man in charge last week, he's trying to keep from having to go back there.

[00:19:13] And he doesn't immediately take over. He see, he sees Pete take charge and he's like, all right, I'll sit back. Let me see how this guy is. And, um, then when Pete, um, wouldn't go and kill that group that they found, uh, and take their stuff like Mitch wanted. I think that's when, um, he, the governor realized, no, but this guy's no good either. And then he sees Pete and Mitch fighting and then he decides we're going to leave.

[00:19:40] So again, he, he's not itching to be the governor again. He just wants safety. And he's like, Nope, this group is not working out. Let's get out of here. Then they can't leave. And so then he's like, all right, I guess I gotta do the thing I didn't want to do. And he goes and kills Pete and he stages a coup. He kills Pete, pressures Mitch to join him, which like pressuring this guy to join you after you killed his brother, right? Their brothers was so harsh. And I thought the actor that played Mitch was great. They were all good.

[00:20:09] That's another thing that makes these episodes that I like them makes me like them is they're all good. So anyway, I guess that's all. Then, then you immediately see the governor get in there and start organizing things better. And I'm like with Pete, he, so another thing that was kind of weak about him is he feels kind of, um, he's stressing, right? But he already knows the problems that need to be solved. He's like rationing fences, medical supplies. These are questions people are looking to me for answers.

[00:20:39] And the governor's like, well, it's hard to lead, but I'm like, you know, the problem. So just get teams together, assign each one of these to that. Whoever seems motivated, capable and enthusiastic about each one of these tasks. And then, you know, send them out and get the supplies and build it. But he's just instead just go, I don't know what to do. So the governor, and then you see him right away.

[00:21:05] He's like putting cars around and, uh, has Tara gathering ammo and he's just a natural leader, but he's also a psychopath. That's the problem. That's why I had, but this pretty much goes right along with everything that you were saying. He didn't want to do it. Yeah. I saw it as kind of like an addict being put back into bad circumstances after having overcome an addiction.

[00:21:32] Cause like when you don't want to smoke anymore and then you are in a bar. Yeah, I did. I kind of viewed it like that. I was like, I agree that overall he didn't want to, but there must've been a bit of him that was like, I don't know, like things like throwing Pete into the lake. I was like, there's being unwillingly forced into something and then there's going back into your unhealthy habits. It didn't take much either.

[00:21:56] Like with Martinez, you know, whacking him was the first evil thing he did since he killed all his people. And I'm like, you didn't want to do it, but you just heard one thing that, and then you just did it. And it's like, I don't think there was much chance for redemption for him if that's all it took. I feel like what Rebecca said though is valid as well in that it was the build up, like the lunch I think is way more important in some ways. But yeah, I agree. You're right.

[00:22:24] I've been in shitty lunch situations and I've not clubbed the person for the golf club. I know you're right, but still. I've thought about it. I don't think we had much chance for redemption. I wanted to. He just can't not be the governor. Yeah, exactly. And it's yeah, it's it I find it interesting because I remember I went into this episode thinking, oh, he's just looking for a pretext. And then I'm like, oh, actually, it is a bit more complicated. He seems to be trying to avoid it. He seems to be trying to turn over a new leaf.

[00:22:53] So it is more complex. I wondered what if Pete was a badass and he was a great leader. I still feel like at some point he wouldn't measure up to what the governor because the governor I stand by what I said about him being a malignant narcissist. And they just need to be in control. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it's interesting what Lutia saying actually about like being like an addict. I hadn't thought of it like that, but you're right. And a lot. I've got another point later. It's actually sort of it covers a bit of what you've already said. But one of the things was how he seems to be fighting it.

[00:23:23] Like he's scared of how far he might have to go because he's done it before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the comparison to an addict is actually really, really good. I'm trying to quit biting my nails. Like I would sympathize with the governor in this episode. I was like, yeah, mate, this struggle is real. I'm trying to start. Mine can grow too long. All right. All right, Lucy. What's the first point?

[00:23:50] Um, I was really, this is a really niche point, but I was really pleased to see the actor who plays Pete because the actor is Enver Gjokas, which I'm sure I've pronounced horribly. I think it's Jokaj, but I don't know for sure. Jokaj. Yeah. He's born in California, but his dad, I think is Albanian, which is why he's got such an interesting name. He played a minor love interest in Agent Carter, which was one of my favorite Marvel shows.

[00:24:19] Before the whole Marvel empire was huge. He was in Agent Carter, which like a 1930s stylized 1950s, sorry, Peggy Carter, what happened in between kind of Captain America and the conclusion of their story. And I was just so pleased to see him. And I was like, Oh, the standard of acting in this episode is actually really good. Um, and I agree with what you said that the guy that plays his brother, um, Kirk Acevedo is also fantastic.

[00:24:47] Um, I also really liked the actress who played Alicia, Juliana Harkavy and the actress who played Lily grew on me this episode. I gave her a bit of a hard time last week, but Audrey Marie Anderson as well was also brilliant. And I think David Morrissey is, I think he's stronger in this episode than he was in the last. I think his performance is better and I can't quite put my finger on why. I think he's always outstanding. Um, but this episode in particular gave him a little bit more to work with and less of

[00:25:16] a terrible wig and beard. Um, I was looking at it last night, is he wearing the wig? Is this the wig she was talking about? It's like, it looks okay to me. It looks, I think this is his natural hair. I was watching it and I was like, last week it was a wig. This week I'm like, that looks more normal. It doesn't look that bad. What are you talking about? My job on this show is to point out when people are wearing wigs. Yeah. Okay. Wait till Jesus's first episode. Oh yeah. Right. I feel like Peter would totally be on that if he was on.

[00:25:46] Yeah. He always points out stuff that one of our favorite podcasts is, um, how did this get made? And there's an iconic episode where June, Diane Rayfield just comes in and goes like, that was a wig though. And that's like, every time we see someone with a wig on TV, we're like, that was a wig though. So Peter came through and said that when the governor was on screen last week. Um, but aside from the performances, I think that it's a really well made episode and some of the iconography of it are, is amazing.

[00:26:16] Like things that has stuck with me are the beheaded soldiers, um, with the signs saying liar, rapist, and then murdered. Um, is a really, um, really stands out to me. And I couldn't, there's something about the liar one that, that kind of tickled my brain. And I realized when I was doing my IMDB dive, it's because it's one of the last things the governor says in the next episode. I think it's either to Herschel or Rick when they say like, you can come back from this. He goes like, liar. And then like chops Herschel's head off.

[00:26:44] So I love that, that it kind of, um. If I was the liar, I'd be like, do I deserve the same punishment as the rapist in the world? Yes! That seems bad. You're like, this seems extreme. I mean. Um, I liked that we got a little bit of a kind of, a sense of like, yeah, as we go on in

[00:27:10] the show, the groups that we encounter get sparser and bigger, and they tend to just devolve from terminus onwards. It tends to devolve into big bads apart from Alexandria, which is like their, their thing. So we're still at the stage in the show where not everyone is inherently terrible. And it's interesting to me to see these slices of life from other communities, like those

[00:27:36] people in the woods who are fenced in with the small amount of supplies. There's about 10 of them. They seem to be doing really well. They're gone the next day. What happened to these people who are stuck in the mud? What was that community? What's the story there? Um, and it feels like this is the point where things are starting to narrow and narrow and you can see how the governor finds himself back at ruminating over the prison. So that part of the staging of it and the world getting smaller, I thought was really cool. Performances, staging, iconography.

[00:28:06] Um, there was a shot right at the beginning that I just loved, which is the governor, like he's doing the washing, talking to Megan, you know, dad, dad shit. Um, and she's asking him if he thinks he's bad or, you know, she says something like, it's your turn, Brian, it's your turn. And he looks really thoughtful and they pull out from the shot and it's him with his hand on his hip. And on the left hand side is a tank and on the right hand side is an RV. And it's like, this is the dilemma.

[00:28:36] He finds himself in. Does he take the tank and go and storm the prisoner? Does he commit to this like RV that clearly emasculates him every turn? And if you read the comic and watch this, you knew it was going to be the tank. Cause as soon as you saw that tank, you're like, Oh, I've got an issue. I think if you have an ounce of like, Oh, I wonder if the governor will just settle down now. Like, um, I, he also says there's something about making moves in chess.

[00:29:03] You can't wait forever to, to take a, to take a move. So I just thought they, there were so many elements of this episode that were just really well staged. And I loved the reveal of Pete underwater. I thought it was so gross. It's so cool. It's such a step up from the heads and tanks. Um, it was interesting that the heads were in the shack with the guy who had taken his own life. Um, they see them at the end, um, of that particular bit where they're going around the cabin and then they see the heads on the floor.

[00:29:33] But I thought the way that they did up, um, Pete's character with him kind of grasping up, trying to swim up. I just thought that was awesome. Yeah. Um, and as we see that for the first time in the episode, I think we hear the kind of governor like bomb. Yeah. Bad mental health. Um, so I just thought I appreciated much more when I was rewatching it, how they'd staged

[00:29:58] it and how it became richer for things like these aspects of performance and staging that, um, yeah, I just really enjoyed. Yeah. A couple of things with the, um, the staging that I noticed, um, that when he was like transforming into governor, they changed the perspective of the camera, um, to be like on the ground, looking up at him to make him, the governor seem more powerful. He's making him seem bigger. Like he was towering above everyone.

[00:30:25] So the first time I noticed it was when he's, um, clubbed Martinez on top of the RV and then he rolls him onto the ground. And then it's kind of from the perspective of Martinez looking up and he's kind of standing really tall and looks quite sort of dominant, you know, dominating. Um, and then the other time that they did that was when they, he was looking at, um, Pete's body in the water. And again, you sort of see it from Pete's perspective, looking up at him standing out on the dock, looking down. I thought it was a really good artistic point to make out.

[00:30:55] You can sort of see his transition into the governor. Um, and also with the music, like you were saying, like, uh, I think the first time it was, where was it? Um, Oh, again, when he's standing on the dock, looking at Pete's body, it initially starts off with these quite singular piano notes. It's quite eerie. And then it builds into this, like, uh, like a pulsating, like room, room. Yeah.

[00:31:22] And it gets, it gets stronger and like, it builds up. And then they use that music again at the very, very end when he's watching the prison, he's seeing Herschel and Michonne. And again, that sort of pulsating room builds and yeah, it's just kind of, you're just feeling that sort of power coming back into him. I thought it was quite a good artistic choice. Yeah. And darkness. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite ominous. That music, you know, that whatever's happening next. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, Lucy.

[00:31:52] Yeah. Uh, Enver Jokaj, he was also in Dollhouse. That's when I first saw him. He's really good in that. Uh, and I guess he's in Resident Alien, which is a popular show now that I feel like I should watch because people say it's good. He's like, he's great. He's proper, um, old school Hollywood handsome. Like he worked so well in Agent Carter cause he looked like in a film. Yeah. Cause it's all these attractive people going out on missions and stuff.

[00:32:22] He does more stuff. He's great. Yeah. At one point I thought he looked a bit like Nathan Drake, um, when they're walking towards the cabin cause he has his backpack on. It kind of looks like a gun belt. He's got like the top on. That's Uncharted, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, Nathan Drake. Yeah. And they got Tom Holland to play that. That doesn't seem right. Have you seen the movie though? He actually pulled it off. Did he really? I didn't see it. Yeah. I was like terrible casting choice until I watched the movie.

[00:32:48] I mean the obvious choice if he was younger is Nathan Fillion. Yeah. That's who I always, when I saw the game, I'm like, that's like young Nathan Fillion, but he's too old now. Tom Holland like wins you over though. I remember when I heard Spider-Man. He's so charming. I mean he's so good. And then I was like, I love him. I love him. That lip sync thing that he did. Oh my God. You watched that right in front of Zendaya. That cures my depression. No. You watch it. Okay. I'll watch it later. It's only like three minutes. Yeah.

[00:33:17] He's a very good, he's a very charismatic guy. I think he, I went into Uncharted going terrible casting. Why would they cast like a 12 year old? I came out of it being like, he is hot. He was just like, he's a man. Yeah. No, no, no. He came across as a man. All right. Just yes. Let me do my first point, which is armchair psychology of Governor part two. Oh, okay. So yeah, there's a lot in the intro talk about and good between Megan and the governor

[00:33:47] and, and we're probably wondering if the governor could turn good or if his bad tendencies will come out. I don't, I don't know. I think people watching the show who didn't read the comic did wonder that they thought maybe there could be a redemption story as there have been with other people in the show. Um, Martinez is saying that the governor and his people can stay only if they understand that he's the leader. And, and I'm like, that's not going to last long.

[00:34:16] And then in Megan and the governor's chess game, he's telling her, as you said, Lucy, you can't think forever sooner or later if you got to make a move. And then when it's his turn, he says, I'm thinking. So it's all foreshadowing that he's going to make a move soon, take over the group and be bad again. You know, especially, I mean, in hindsight, you can see that that's where it was going. Um, and then, so then he finds these people tied up, beheaded, wearing signs saying liar, rapist, murderer.

[00:34:40] And it seems like, like you think this guy, they killed his family and then he took revenge on them. Is that what we think happened with these? I, I think the soldiers, yeah, came and attacked or like what's the word house invaded the house attacked his wife and child. And then he got revenge on them. That's my reading. Yeah. I did have, I want to ask the two of you what you thought about this was, um, in the IMDB,

[00:35:09] it's like, there is a hint that the governor has been involved with this. And I'm like, no, I don't think I didn't get that. Yeah. I remember listeners thinking that too, but I, I felt like I got more of a handle on what the point of this is this time. I, I didn't consider what you were saying earlier, Rebecca. And I think that is true. I love that, you know, that he just doesn't want to be in that same situation where he didn't protect his family, but also he's a liar and he's a murderer.

[00:35:36] And I don't know if he's a rapist, but he's a sexual assaulter for sure. And in the comic, he's a rapist. Yeah. And we also learned that his father beat him just for smoking. And so, as I said, arms, armchair psychology assessment here, I think when adults treat kids that way, they can internalize the shame and it can become part of their identity. I'm bad. I'm a bad kid, you know? And then they grow up and the governor sees himself as a bad person, or at least knows that there's, he has that inside.

[00:36:05] He has the capacity for it. And he knows that other people may want to kill bad people, especially in the zombie apocalypse, because they rightly see them as threats. So I think that's, I got such a good sense of him. That's why he keeps himself so hidden from everyone. He's so, he's got this distance that he keeps, except when he's talking to people like Mitch or Merle or Martinez, who he thinks are similar. And he can open, he opened up to Mitch more than we've heard him talk to anybody in this

[00:36:35] episode in the trailer, talking about his history with his father and everything. And I also think that's why he sees everyone as a threat because he thinks maybe rightly that if they knew the truth about him, they'd want to kill him. And that's why he has this philosophy of you kill or you die. And to the governor surviving or not dying means killing. So when he says, when they, you know, Martinez asked him, or no, I forget one of his people

[00:37:02] asked him, what did you do after the ZA? And he says, I survived. That means I killed people to him. And that aligns with the whole malignant narcissist thing too. I was talking about last time, or they feel bad about themselves deep down, but they have no empathy for other people. And so when someone asked the governor, um, no, when later, when Lily asks him, where are you going? He goes, I'm surviving. And then he immediately kills Pete. So again, surviving is killer be killed.

[00:37:32] And then, um, he laid all this out in to Milton in the season three finale. So I'm going to tell you the secret. There's a threat. You ended. You're not going to tell him that you're going to kill him. And if you don't feel ashamed about enjoying it, you smell the gunpowder and you see the blood, you know what that means? It means you're alive. You've won. You take the heads so that you don't ever forget you kill or you die. And I think this is Shane except to more of an extreme. And, and I like with Shane, it ends up being his fatal flaw.

[00:38:02] The governor's fatal fluff. He just calmed down a little and focused on growth instead of killing his perceived enemies. He might've done okay. Um, but his, his MO is, uh, find some people you can fool into thinking you're good by not letting them see what's really inside. Find the ones in the group who are more hardcore like Mitch here or Martinez, Shumpert and Merle before, let them know the truth of who you are so they can help you eliminate threats.

[00:38:28] Then you kill or maybe full some, but kill most everyone else you meet and take what they have. And that's what he'd like. He he's telling the people at the end of this episode, once he's taken over as leader, if you see any strangers, avoid them, come back and tell me and Mitch where you saw them. He doesn't say why, but that's so he can go kill them and take their stuff, you know? And that's just so fucking stupid. Like if Rick had that philosophy, he'd have tried to kill everyone at Hilltop.

[00:38:56] And I just think, man, the governor had a lot, had a lot of potential to be a great leader. But I do think that it's that inner shame that is his downfall because if he sees himself as a bad person, that's that people are going to want to kill if they know the truth about him. So he has to kill them first, you know? Yeah. So that's what I think of him and he's going to be dead next week. Yeah. It's interesting actually what you're saying about sort of the similarities with Shane.

[00:39:26] I hadn't really thought of that. And it makes you sort of wonder like, okay, if like Rick had died instead of Shane, like would this have been Shane storyline? Would he have become the governor? Yeah. I think quite likely he would have gone down that path. Yeah. No, he was a strong leader as well. Like, but ultimately his, his desire to protect the ones he loved kind of blurred maybe some of his vision. And that was kind of what he, they both would have been for, you know, Shane would have been focused on and that's what the governor is focused on.

[00:39:54] That was the most important thing at the cost of anything. Absolutely. And since Shane, one big difference of Shane is he's just full of heart. You can feel it, right? The governor is, it's all deep inside, but I feel like even with Shane, you feel that there's moments where he's just very defiant, but also there's that shame. Like I, he knows that I'm not, I know I'm not the best guy, but this is what you need to be. This is what you need. He's just keeps telling himself that.

[00:40:19] But I think there is that shame inside that if he didn't have, he would be a better leader. Same with both of these guys. All right, Rebecca, your turn. What shall I do next? I might do Martinez and more his demise really.

[00:40:46] Um, so sort of the things that may be led up to his fate. Um, so he knows the governor's past, um, and he could let his secrets out at any point. So the governor seems to be doing the best he can not to talk about his past, not to dwell on it. Uh, whenever it comes up, he tries to move the conversation along. And I think Martinez knows too much. I think he maybe sees him as a little bit of, you know, a loose cannon that he could sort

[00:41:16] of almost blow his cover at any minute. Yeah. Um, if the governor's playing chess with everyone, he wants them to have the least information about it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Cause I guess that's his power, isn't it? If people don't know too much. And even like in the cold open, uh, when they, they refer to him as Brian and he's like, Oh, Oh, Hey Brian. Like, you know, I think ultimately he took that as a sign of hope because he's really hoping that the governor's changed. Right. Yeah.

[00:41:45] Yeah. And, um, there is a conversation at some point where he's, I think it was when they're in the cabin and he says, you seem like you've changed. And he said, I have, and yeah. And I think he wants to believe it, but I also think just a couple of times when he calls him Brian, he's like, okay, Brian. And I feel like he's like insinuating. Yeah. I've got the upper hand here. I know your secret. Well, he doesn't realize that actually, ultimately that is going to be part of his downfall because he's too, he's too much of a threat to the governor.

[00:42:16] Yeah. Um, yeah. Like I said, there's some examples of where he's like alluding to the past where the governor tries to change it on. Um, so in the cabin after they've killed the Zeds and they're having some beers and, uh, I think it's Pete is like, what happened here? Did you see those biters? Was he keeping the biters there? And Martinez is like, Oh, but that was his wife and kid. And he's looking at the governor to see his reaction because he knows that's what the governor did with Penny.

[00:42:45] He knows that, you know, he can see the similar similarities between the cabin guy and him and the governor. Um, and this whole scene, like Martinez is dropping little hints that, you know, I can see the connection here. I'm not, I haven't forgotten your past. And he's looking at the government to see his reaction. And the governor's reaction is, you know, poker face looking down. One eye Bri. One eye Bri. Yeah. He won't get involved in the conversation. He won't be drawn in. He's trying to move it on.

[00:43:15] Um, and then Martinez, uh, so Pete says it. Yeah, but what about those heads? He was keeping their heads again, obviously the governor's zombie aquarium, very obvious parallels there. Um, I hadn't even considered that though. Oh, you hadn't. Okay. Maybe not as obvious as I thought. It is obvious now that you say it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he's kept his wife and kids. He's got the zombie heads. Uh, you know, you can see Pete is just like, what the hell? And Martinez said about the heads, uh, maybe they belong to the guys who did the wrong thing to the wrong man.

[00:43:45] And again, he's looking at the governor, you know, assessing his reaction. Governor is just like trying to like, ignore it. Um, and he actually says it's probably best not to think too much about it. That's what the governor says. He's like trying to move the conversation along again. And then the same scene, like they're talking about their past and you know, the governor won't be drawn on it. And Mitch says, uh, about one eye bright, you know, something about you're very calm. You're cool. You're collected. You know, was he always like this? And Martinez, oh yeah, he had ice in his veins.

[00:44:15] Um, and then the governor goes, so what about you? You, what did you do? He'd like immediately changes the focus onto the other, you know, Mitch and Pete. What about you? Like he's trying every time the focus on his past comes, he's trying to move the conversation along. So it's very clear. He doesn't want his past to be known. And I think the fact that Martinez keeps hinting at it, um, doesn't really do him any favors in the long run. Martinez did not handle this well. No, he did. I think, I think the fact that he thought the governor had changed, I think he underestimated him.

[00:44:44] And that was his big mistake. He should have probably killed him right away, you know, or sent him on his way or something. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and even, you know, outside the RV, when they're having drinks with Tara and Lily and everyone, again, they're talking about the past. They're talking about, oh, your old count was good. Wasn't it? Um, and again, you know, he's not looking happy. He's trying to move the conversation. So a lot, you know, lots of examples of where that happens.

[00:45:10] Um, so I think that played a big part, but then I think the ultimate part was he, when he'd had a few drinks kind of let his guard down. And I think Jason, you talked about it a bit earlier. He admitted to the governor. I'm not sure I can keep this camp safe. And, um, I've actually got the dialogue here. I might just, if it's all right, just, just read it out. So, so when they're talking about his family, Martinez says, I couldn't sleep at night knowing I was going to lose them. The governor, I'm not going to lose them. Martinez. Yeah. He's like, yeah, right.

[00:45:39] You know, very sarcastic. He's saying you are going to lose them. If you stick with me. Yeah. Yeah. You can see, he doesn't believe he's like, yeah. Uh, the governor says, you don't think you can keep this place safe. Martinez. And this is, I think this is the really bad part of what he says is he says, I'll try. Hopefully we'll be prepared for whatever comes. And now you're here. Maybe we can share the crown. It was just that, that was his ultimate downfall admitting that he might not be able to keep them safe. And that's just not good enough for the governor.

[00:46:06] And, you know, I was talking earlier about his motivations and I think he just is like, you know, enough is enough. You're too much of a threat. You're. Yeah. You know, you're not good enough. His whole purpose has always been bring Penny back. And then that didn't work out. And now it's, I'm going to kill myself. Oh wait, I have this new replacement family. My new purpose is to keep them safe. Oh, the Martinez is saying they're not going to be safe here. So that goes directly against his only reason for living right now, you know?

[00:46:37] Yeah. I thought there's something so Shakespearean about this idea of like sharing the crown and the governor never being able to share it because that's kind of what Pete offers him as well as like, and he, he just can't do it. He can't, he can't trust people. Um, or he chooses not to trust people. And yeah, if he was, you know, there's reasons for that. There are probably people who are not sociopathic narcissists who don't trust people and want to lead on their own and that's fine. But yeah, with the governor, it's interesting.

[00:47:04] His ego just can't, can't handle it at all. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you realize, but when they were in the cabin having some drinks, um, Pete was reading a book and it was Richard the third. Oh yeah. So it ties in exactly to what you were just saying. No way. Yeah. Hang on. Which one is he the hang on? Which Richard? I think it's around about 13, 14th minute. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

[00:47:31] And there's one really quick shot and you see him holding a book and it's Richard the third, which I didn't know. I had to Google like a brief synopsis, but it's basically how he will kill anyone who gets in his way so that he can wear the crown. Yeah. Yeah. So it direct parallels to the governor. I think. When I am taught Shakespeare, um, everyone, there's a really hammy 1995 film of Richard

[00:47:58] the third with Ian McKellen as Richard and the students loved it. Like they do it. You know, the thing with Shakespeare is like, Oh, you stage it in like different time periods and they stage it in, um, wartime Germany. And Ian McKellen just has the time of his life playing this absolutely villain. But yeah, that's so interesting. God, Rebecca, you're good. That's cool. I think pure Pete was just too pure for this world. So yes, Shakespeare, be like, get it off me. Get it off me.

[00:48:25] I mean, the moment that he said to, uh, his, uh, brother, you know, they, so it was a little strange that they see this group, this other camp, and then Pete steers them away from going in and invading and killing them and taking their stuff. And then I guess it's the next day. Some other group came in and did it. I'm like, that's a bit convenient. How many groups are there around here?

[00:48:49] But anyway, then they run in and he's like, Mitch is like, uh, Oh, someone else got all our stuff. And Pete's like, you're talking about stuff. People are dead here. And I'm like, that is way too compassionate. You're going to die soon. Like that's like walking dead code for like, you may as well just head out. No, I mean, I feel, I understand. I get him. I'm right there with him, but that's why I'd be dead too.

[00:49:19] I also thought of Carol in that scene because, um, that he says, you know, he, he might've lived. Um, and yeah. And he said he might not. And I was like, Oh, this mirrors exactly. In fact, maybe even to the day, the conversation Rick and Carol have about, um, Karen and David. That's the exact moment. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. What else, Rebecca? Anything else on that one?

[00:49:46] Um, I was just thinking like the title was called dead weight and it was like, was ultimately Martinez was a dead weight. Yeah. Um, anyone that can't help the governor. Yeah. Um, you know, you kind of eating your own words there. Cause you, you know, it's a shame. Cause I, I actually do quite like Martinez and I, um, I, I feel like God, if he just hadn't tried to have that power play with the knowledge of his past and if he hadn't, I just got drunken

[00:50:15] and, and, and let his guard down. But he was also a bit of a mediocre leader. He wasn't horrible, but he was like, they weren't as organized as they should have been and ambitious for creating a better society. They were hungry, you know, I think. Yeah. And, and also I kind of wonder like, okay, he's wistful for the days of Woodbury. Why not? Why didn't he go back to Woodbury then and take it over? I mean, I guess the governor burned it down, but that was only recently.

[00:50:45] It was only recently. I think. I don't know. Smash cut to Martinez turning up being like, ah, maybe he did, maybe he went to Woodbury and then realized, you know, this, we're going to have to just build something new. Mm hmm. Yeah. Out in the forest. Mm. Okay. Lucy. Um, let's talk a little bit Tara, I guess. Um, she's a, a good episode. I think.

[00:51:14] Um, I do feel like Tara and Aaron, I mean, a lot of people in the walking dead seem to be cursed with like everyone they love dies, but I do find it interesting. I find it. And this is not me saying it's intentional on the part of the show at all, but it's funny that like the, the two major queer characters are such black widows, like they fall in love with. Particularly Tara. I feel particularly bad for her because she loses Dr. Denise and, um, her and Alicia have a really sweet connection in this episode. I love that.

[00:51:44] Um, a moment that really made me like Tara is when she's like playing this like big kind of boss to Alicia about knowing about guns. I tried to write gun flirting in my notes and I wrote fun flirting, but it is also fun flirting and gun flirting. Um, and I love that when Alicia says, are you always this foolish shit Tara just kind of owns it and says, yes, I am. Like, I like that. And that became really that moment was all about the vibe. Yeah. Really. 100%. So it's good.

[00:52:14] Well played. Good chemistry. Yeah. I thought that as well. Like it was very believable that they were into each other. Yeah. And they said in an interview, they went and had sex right after that. So I guess it really, no, I'm just kidding. I think it worked. Method acting. Um, but by the way, okay. The queer couples are the queer characters are black widows, but who hasn't lost people? Well, that's it. That's what I'm saying is like, it happens to a lot of people in the walking dead. Everyone.

[00:52:41] It amuses me that particularly with Aaron, because like, you know, Eric and then Jesus. I'm like, mm. Yeah, I guess so. Poor Aaron and Jesus. I hope they like had loads of sex in that seven year gap. And then like, you know, I just, you know, spin off where it's just the two of them having like one romance. I'm sure there's some fanfic on that if you wanted to. I think the reason it stands out is because, because the walking dead is doing a great thing by having queer characters up front.

[00:53:08] It can feel it's, I think there is sometimes a sense of disappointment of like, oh, I just want queer characters to have a happy ending because they so rarely get to be in front anyway. So I think. Black people too. Numerically. Yeah, exactly. Although numerically, all of the hetero characters probably lose partners in the same amount. Yeah. And the white characters too. In fact, I might do a math. I might do this. It can feel, it can feel more poignant, not more poignant, but it can feel more like, oh, poor Tara.

[00:53:39] She's never going to get a girlfriend that lasts or, oh, poor Aaron. He's never quite going to get his happy ending. It can. But my sort of counterpoint to that kind of thing is, well, A, I love having people who don't always get representation be upfront because it's a reflection of the real world and also you get to see yourself in the characters when normally you couldn't. But also I say, give them the respect to treat them like everyone else. It's the Walking Dead. It's a horror movie. People die.

[00:54:09] You know what I mean? It's the old equality versus equity thing, isn't it? There's no easy kind of answer to it. It would just be nice, you know, nice for Tara to have not had, not lost her hot girl for number one. And she, it would have been great to see this. I mean, she seemed like she would have been a good character. I forgot her name, but. Alicia. Alicia. Yeah. Yeah. And they are obviously at the lunch where Martinez sort of winds the governor up without realizing.

[00:54:35] And yeah, I guess I forget that Tara starts off the show, her time in the show with this massive loss of her father, then her sister and her niece. Yeah. And seeing her protect Megan when they're kind of playing together. It's just a really poignant scene. And it's gross as fuck because that foot is so grim. Oh, so yeah, I enjoyed spending Tara time with Tara this episode. I find her really engaging and I'm pleased she's here.

[00:55:03] And it was nice to see the start of that kind of overt flirtation with Alicia, their relationship develop. And when she says to Martinez, double thanks for the suds. It's just that really uniqueness of Tara that I love. Yeah. Yeah. That lunch as a whole is so funny. Like talking about Martinez's dad being a priest and yeah, Martinez kind of shitting on the governor again with being like, you should fix the roof, man. Like, yeah. And he's like, yeah, I was going to get to it.

[00:55:32] He's like, stop pushing his buttons, Martinez. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But I like the fist bump as well. Like that's kind of like Tara's trademark a little bit. And I kind of liked that, that, you know, you're seeing the introduction of that. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. She keeps doing it right with Glenn and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My turn. Deciding to take the prison. So throughout the episode, people are thinking like how to improve the camp, how to improve

[00:56:01] the situation, the security, the food. And at one point he says to Lily, the governor, maybe we can find a better place if we're willing to fight for it. And she's like, no, let's improve this place. But I, my thought is always, well, didn't 95% of the world's population die, which would mean that 95% of places are unoccupied and can't you just go find one and clear out the zombies? And, but that's, you know, then it wouldn't be a story.

[00:56:30] So, um, then like, I think, yeah, this zombie that almost killed Megan, uh, that got the leg ripped off was what drove him to decide for sure that they need a better, more secure place. But then how do we get from that to go to take back the prison? We see him in his RV looking at his punctured eye socket. And I think whenever you see his eye naked like that, it evokes Michonne. I think I'm thinking he's thinking about Michonne.

[00:56:59] Um, then he goes to the zombie Pete, another dead weight floating in the water, underwater. And that was such a great scene of him reaching up to him from his watery grave. And I think this pushes him more towards going back to the prison because Pete is now this symbol of someone who wasn't willing to fight for things, you know, fight this group to kill this camp of other people. And, you know, the governor's like, I'm not going to make the mistake that Pete made.

[00:57:27] And then, so he, that's when he decides. And I think when we see him like skulking around the perimeter of the prison, I don't know for sure, but I think he was probably just intending on scouting it out. Right. Cause there's no point going over there and shooting someone where you're just by yourself. But then he saw Michonne who is just the focus of his rage because she killed his zombie daughter and got mad and raised his gun there. But I can't remember what happens. I don't think he fires. Right. I think he goes back and gets his people to go back to the prison.

[00:57:56] But, um, the last part of this point is just, it was, it was good to see Rick and Carl and Herschel and Michonne. And, and another thing about an episode or two away from the people who care about is that it, it feels good when we get back to them. And so that's nice, you know, it's nice to give yourself the gift of missing someone sometimes. Yeah. And they all look so happy, which is a bit sad. Yeah. You know, especially Herschel. Herschel's like laughing with Michonne. I know. That's true.

[00:58:26] We all know what's coming up now. So it's kind of, uh, a bit sad really watching it. It really is. What's going to happen next. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad the governor's dying when you put it that way. Yeah. Get rid of that fucker. Yeah. Okay. Rebecca, any more? Um, yeah, this will be kind of touched on a little bit. Um, but there's a bit more that I want to talk about, which was, um, you know, Brian's battle not to lead. There's like a bit of an inner battle.

[00:58:56] We were talking earlier about, you know, like a bit like an addict and how he's trying to fight it. Um, and I think kudos to David Morrissey for his acting. He, he is so good in this episode. I think you can really see that like inner battle. He's having the inner turmoil where he's trying to fight something where this, you know, resist this very strong urge in him. Um, and then we sort of talked to him a little bit about it early, about what Martinez says about sharing the crown.

[00:59:24] And when he then kills him, he's saying, I don't want it. I don't want it. I don't want to do it. And it's like, you know, the, the suggestion that Martinez is like, maybe you could help me lead. Like, I think he's scared of how far he might have to go again. And he doesn't want to be that person again. And he's trying so hard. Like, as you say, as he's killing him and dragging him to the pit, he's like, I don't want it. I don't want it. The war. Yeah, it is.

[00:59:50] And I feel like you can, you know, you can really feel that like conflict inside him between what he wants to do and what he has to do really in his head anyway, what he thinks he has to do. Because then when he's talking to Mitch later, he's like, we're going to, don't worry about good or bad. We're going to do the only thing. Yes. Yeah. There's only one way forward. Yeah. And I think by that point, like this, this actually my point here is about, you know, the battle and then how he transitions into being the governor.

[01:00:19] Like, and I actually found this old interview with David Morrissey where they were talking about that scene with Martinez. So this is just a quote from David Morrissey. He says, I think Martinez makes the mistake of admitting weakness. He says to the governor, I'm not sure I can keep this place safe. Had he turned around to the governor that day when he was playing golf and had said, there's no way this camp is not going to be safe. I'm going to make it safe. I'm going to do everything I can to make it safe. Then the governor would have said, great, I'll follow you.

[01:00:47] But as soon as the man admits his weakness, the governor is going to take control and the governor is killing him and screaming. I don't want it. What he doesn't want is the responsibility. He doesn't want the responsibility he's forced to take because of this man's weakness. That's very important. He's putting a crown on his head that he doesn't want, but nobody else but him is worthy of wearing it. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And I think that really sums it up as, you know, just sums up everything I was saying really.

[01:01:14] Um, and then, you know, there's other bit we're talking about, you know, Pete asking for guidance leading, you know, I sure could do with some help. And the governor just doesn't respond. He kind of just looks down. He looks away. He's like, no, it almost like I can't, I can't. Cause it's that slippery slope. If I start giving advice, I'm going to end up doing it. Like Rick. Sorry. I just, as you're talking, this is Rick rejecting leadership at the prison. Oh, it is, isn't it?

[01:01:43] Ah, I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah. That's a good point. He and the governor are on parallel journeys. Just the way you were describing it, Rebecca. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. And I think, um, I think before other people have described like Rick as a bit of an addict as well. Like, um, I can't remember, I think maybe about leadership as well as that, like when he tries to resist it. So yeah, I hadn't even, I hadn't even put those two together. Yeah.

[01:02:09] Um, and then I think the final bit where he tries to resist it is when the other camp gets murdered and he goes straight back to his RV with his family. He's like, we've got to leave now. And he goes, he's kind of like, I do not want to stay here. If I stay here, I know what I have to do. We're just going to go off and do our own thing. I can make you safe. But then, um, obviously the, you know, the mud pit full of zombies and there's this shot where he realizes he can't keep them safe on his own.

[01:02:38] And he looks into the car and he sees how scared his family are. And he sees the Zed. So there's too many of them to fight. And you just see this look of resignation on his face and his shoulders drop and his head drops where he's like, yeah, I know what I have to do. I have to do it. And it, you can see, he doesn't really want it. It's just this, he's resigned to the fact that he's forced now to become the governor. Um, and then the very next scene is the next day.

[01:03:05] He's got his gun belt on, uh, you know, Lily asked him, what are you doing? And he says, I'm surviving and go back to what Jason said earlier. You know, that means I'm going to have to kill people. I'm going to have to do whatever it takes. Um, and immediately he goes over to Pete's trailer and kills him. He sees he's a weak link. He needs to get rid of him. He's, you know, he's, he's going to, he sees it that Pete's going to go. And get them all killed. So he kills Pete. He takes out that threat. Um, then he goes to Mitch and tells him you were right.

[01:03:35] We should have taken those supplies. And I think earlier when he'd been watching those interactions between Pete and Mitch, he like we'd mentioned it, he'd been observing their different styles. Uh, and he hadn't got involved, but now he's saying to Mitch. Yeah, you were right. That's how you would have survived. We should have taken those supplies. We needed those extra resources. Um, and I feel like in this scene is where he starts talking like the governor. He sounds like the governor. He has a lot of confidence in his voice. He's been very assertive.

[01:04:03] Uh, he says, I'm running it now. I'll do whatever it takes. You know, it's, there's no, um, conflict there anymore. It's like, he's made that transition. He is now the governor. He is taking charge. He is going to make sure that they're safe. He's back in the zone. He is. And then he sees Mitch, you know, he's go straight to Mitch because he knows he needs a Mitch. He needs a mole. Like I said, you know, Mitch is his mole. He needs him. And that's why he goes to him. This is what I've done. I'm going to keep you safe. I need you on board.

[01:04:31] And, you know, like Jason said earlier, he's been honest with him. He's told him what he's done. He's kind of telling him what his intentions are because he needs his right hand man. Um, but you know, like the, you know, the hired heavy really. Um, and he needs people like that. So, you know, he's getting all his ducks in a row really for, for whatever he needs to do next as the governor. Yeah. Um, and then sort of the, the final bit. Is they show him leading the camp. He's in charge. He's doing what the others couldn't do.

[01:05:00] Like you said, he's, there's a scene. You can see them building these wooden barriers. Um, he's talking about the perimeter. How's the perimeter looking? He's going around to each of his people. He's obviously delegated tasks to everyone. How's the perimeter? Great. We've got the cars blocking them. Yeah. How's the armory looking? How's the supplies looking? How's the, he's asking each person and he's organized them. He's, you know, he's a, you know, obviously he's a psychopath, but yeah, he's a, he, he has a strong leadership.

[01:05:29] So he's a, he seems to be a natural leader. He is, you know, he's pulling this whole camp together and they are eating out of his hand. They, they are yes. Like, you know, yes, sir. You know, kind of thing. They, they can see that he's keeping himself. He's organizing them. And you know, that's the leadership that I think they've been lacking. So you can see how he gets these people on his side. Um, yeah.

[01:05:53] But the thing is, uh, he could have done that in a better way where he went and made his case for why he should be the leader or something. Yeah. And then acted like that. And then they could see, yeah, he seems to have his shit together and know what he's doing. He is the kind of guy that will help us. So let's go ahead and give him a shot versus just going in and killing. Yeah. Yeah. But they, I mean, they don't know that he killed Pete and he says, well, we'll say he died a hero.

[01:06:18] So he's got like good qualities, but his fatal flaw is this idea that he thinks he needs to kill. You do need to kill threats, but the kind of people that he thinks are threats that that bar is super low for him. And I think as well, Pete, um, did seem like a nice guy and he obviously needed guidance. I think if he had just been like, look, I want to take charge. I think this is how it should, I think Pete would have stepped aside and been like, yeah, you can take it.

[01:06:47] Pete even said, I will happily help you. I'm going to take charge right now. And then we're going to figure out how to have a vote in a couple of days. And I'm like, why don't you just have everyone vote? That's how you have a vote. But anyway, he was already on board for that, you know? So the governor could have said, I want to do it. Here's why you should vote for me. And tried that first. Try that first before you kill the guy. Jesus. Yeah. I know. I want to say, I don't think, uh, like I'm not saying I think he's a good leader. No, I know. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just. He's effective. Yeah. I'm just saying.

[01:07:18] Yeah, exactly. And he is getting shit done. You know, he is, you know, absolutely organizing the ranks, you know, making sure that they're safe. He's already, yeah, got it way under control more than anyone else had. Yeah. Quickly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Ready for, oh, wait, do you have any more points, Lily? I mean, Lily. Lily? Lily? And it's Lily. Do you have any more points, Lily?

[01:07:46] I actually do not have any more points. So yeah, that works well. I have one more. It's about Lucy. No, I'm just kidding. Yay. So it's really short, but I do like Lily and I probably should have emphasized it more last week. I always liked that character. And it's, this episode in particular, I think it's really good to see Tara with a sister who cares about her, you know, cause that's gone.

[01:08:09] And she's saying, be safe as Tara goes off and she wants to set up a nurse's station and wants to make the camp better. And once the governor takes over, she goes to him and says, you don't have to do this alone, which just feels like a really nice thing to key in on someone. And she can sense that reluctance for him. And also that he keeps things, you know, that he like feels like I'm the only one who can handle all this.

[01:08:37] And so she's there like, Hey, I'm going to help you. And so she's just a really good person. And I don't think it's unbelievable. I know a lot of people like her. I think many of them are our friends, you know, they seem like similar kind of people as her. And, um, and one thing I, Megan, her daughter said that her dad was always mean to her, told the governor that, which makes me wonder if Lily is subconsciously drawn to bad men, which happens, you know? And that made me think of my mom who had the same thing.

[01:09:07] And she kind of reminds me of my mom a little bit, Lily. So maybe that's another reason why I like her. And I think that actress did a good job. Yeah, she was good too. She really does look like Maggie though. I thought the same when you, even before you said it last week, I was just like, this is so weird that she looks so much like Maggie and, um, but yeah, I think Lily. Look, look, look at this. I was saying she looks like a Megan.

[01:09:36] Dively layman kind of. Oh yeah. I can see that. Yeah. Uh, Um, yeah. Sorry. Sorry about Lily. I think she stepped up again a bit this week. Like you said, she had the nurses station. She was, you know, also like we can't leave. I'm the only nurse here. So I feel like she maybe feels like she has a bit of a purpose. Yeah. Which maybe she didn't before when they, you know, trapped in that apartment and didn't even know how to kill Zed's, you know?

[01:10:05] Um, Tara already has a girlfriend. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as well, like Tara's like, um, good at sort of protecting them from danger. You know, she, she's got a gun. She, you know, it seems to be able to, um, step up. And if, you know, a physical threat came in, I think Tara would be able to step up. And I feel this episode, Lily feels like, well, this is my contribution. I I've got the skills to help people who are wounded or sick, um, which valuable skills.

[01:10:35] I would say, particularly the ZA, like, you know, even things like a simple infection could kill you. Um, I think having someone with those skills and, and, you know, that knowledge would be invaluable. But every time anyone does, they die. What becomes a nurse or a doctor? Doctor, nurse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even vets. Oh, poor Herschel. Stop it. All right. Shall we move on to notes?

[01:11:05] Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Rebecca? Um. Got anything? Just very briefly. Yeah. Sort of different leadership styles. Um, I think Pete, I kind of did it with a, an alignment chart from D and D. Um, yes. Yeah. Rebecca. So I thought Pete was, um, he's a bit of an idealist wants to do the right thing, um, all the time and save everyone. So I thought of him, his alignment would be like lawful good. Yeah. Like always trying to do the right thing. Which I think is how Rick started off.

[01:11:35] Yes. And actually I've, I put the, I've, he's very reminiscent of Rick in season one and two, uh, which actually then opened up a conversation with my husband. And we were trying to work out each season. What alignment was Rick because. Yeah. It changes. Oh my God. Rebecca. It does. Peter has a theory that he's literally one of the few characters on TV. That's like all nine. Yeah. Like Rick is everywhere. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. He really is. He's so like, he changes so much. Um, but yeah, Pete is more like early Rick.

[01:12:04] I think, you know, the idealist, um, Martinez, um, I thought of him as quite a strong and fair leader, uh, but he's got a past, you know, he's done things in his past that, you know, in the name of the governor. Um, so I feel like his alignment has maybe changed a bit. I think in the past when he was following, uh, the governor, he was more of a lawful neutral.

[01:12:27] He was, you know, following the rules, doing what he was told, you know, um, you know, helping build an army, you know, interrogating Michonne and not Michonne. Sorry, Glenn and Maggie, you know, he was doing what, what was required of him as a, you know, as someone in the military, I guess. Um, but now I, I think I thought he was quite fair as a leader when he, you know, in these two episodes or this episode, um, I would have put it more as like either a

[01:12:57] neutral good or a true neutral. Um, so we haven't, my husband and I were talking about this last time. We're having a bit of debate. Uh, so I, I, I try and if I'm trying to work out what their alignment is, I either do the Harry Potter align, you know, which character on the chart, either Harry Potter or Scrubs. Those are the two that I go to. And, um, I think as a leader, the true neutral was coming up as like Snape. And I was like, yeah, I think I could see that, you know, he's not going to be the fluffy, nice guy.

[01:13:25] Um, but I feel like he's got good intentions and I think, you know, ultimately he's not a bad guy. Yeah. And then the governor, I think I put him down as a dictator, obviously. Um, as alignment, I would say neutral evil, which, um, would align probably with Voldemort on the Harry Potter chart. Yeah. Um, so just thought it was interesting that the, the three sort of leaders in this episode and their different styles of leadership. I love that.

[01:13:55] I love a bit of alignment. Yeah. We keep talking about doing an alignment episode in the off season. Rebecca, you need to come on for that. Oh, I would definitely do that. We can say what we think our own alignments are. I was just going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I say like, I could talk about this for another hour, but it was like, I just wanted to like, as a note, so I just wanted to make it quick, but yeah, I think it's, it's a lot of discussion. Like could, could, could come out of that. Yeah. Definitely. And I love the idea that Rick has been all of them. Yeah. Cause it's so true.

[01:14:24] Like when you go through it, you're like, Oh yeah. Yep. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. He has been all of those. Yeah. It's like a bingo card, isn't it? Literally. But I feel like not in the way as Morgan, where it feels whiplashy with Rick. No, you can make it all make sense, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Anything else? Um, just, uh, really quickly, just the Mitch and Mel comparison. Um, I feel like he was like the third Dixon brother.

[01:14:54] Um, in some ways there was just a sort of few things that sort of stuck out to me. Um, first of all, he wanted to rob that camp. Um, and rather than just take them in, you know, season three, we find out Mel says to Daryl, do they know we were, you know, do your friends know we were planning to rob them that night? So, you know, that, that kind of parallel, um, the derogatory name he gives to the governor, the one eye bride, um, you know, this is yeah.

[01:15:22] Very Mel like, you know, putting someone down. Um, again, he's like a mercenary. He's the heavy, he's the one who's going to do the dirty work for the governor. Um, and the governor sees that in him. Um, he's a misogynist. Um, when Tara says to Pete, you can't just take over. And he says, shut your mouth, you little bitch. And he was so much like Mel, I think in that point, you know, and then he goes right up into her face.

[01:15:49] Uh, I think, you know, typical misogynist doesn't like strong women. Um, and he's trying to intimidate her. He's like right up in her face and he's like shouting at her to move. Awful to her. Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, and I think like Mel, he seems to thrive on the chaos. Um, he enjoys their power of being intimidating and, and being a heavy, uh, but doesn't seem to aspire to be a leader. Just seems to enjoy, you know, stirring shit up.

[01:16:18] Um, cause he gets his kicks out of it. Yeah. Um, the only, the one big difference I thought though, between Mel and Mitch, um, I think if the governor had killed Darryl, I don't think Mel would have joined him because he loves his brother. So it's like all his flaws. I think that bond between Mel and Darryl. And I, I felt it was a bit far fetched that Mitch would just immediately go. Yeah. All right. Then you kill my brother, but I'm going to, you know, be your best mate and stand by you.

[01:16:47] And I don't know. That was the one bit that I felt like a stark difference between the two of them. Yeah. I think that's very fair. I think you're probably right, but I could see Merle just being dominated too. Probably not. I did wonder if it was maybe a little bit fear. Yeah. Like it was for survival. It was like, shit, you've just killed, you've just killed two people. Well, he has a gun on him as well, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And maybe he'll be like Martinez and just desert him as a sign of trouble, you know? Maybe. You never know.

[01:17:17] It seemed like the idea was that he was going to, yeah, toe the line. Go along with it. Yeah. And one other little Easter egg, they mentioned Fort Benning. Yes. Yeah. Pete mentions that he was stationed there when the apocalypse first happened and just calls back to the season one where they were debating whether to go to the CDC or Fort Benning. So just a few little Easter eggs in there. Yeah. It's confirmed, canon confirmed Fort Benning fell. It was never going to be viable. Yes. He didn't say that.

[01:17:47] He did. He said before it all went wrong. I thought he meant the ZA. No, he said he was there at the start and then I assume because he left it can't have been still standing. I assume that too, but I was listening and he was like, I stayed for a while. That's what he said. Interesting. There you go. All right. In terms of my notes, I don't have much to add. You've been really, really thorough, Rebecca. It's great. I, yeah.

[01:18:15] Oh, the only other book thing I had was that he started calling Megan pumpkin. Do you know what? I wondered if that was a nod to the book. I couldn't quite remember. Yeah. I can't remember which one, but that's definitely how he refers to Penny. Um, I think apart from my, oh, Shumpert, we got an update on Shumpert. He was never the same after Woodbury. Um, and he thinks Martinez thinks Shumpert might have let himself get bit.

[01:18:43] Um, which is very sad for Shumpert. He was great. I liked the line that gunshots are a luxury. It felt like a very Rick Grimes thing to say. In fact, there are points where when the governor is leading, it feels a bit like Rick. Like we've seen what people can do. Gunshots are a luxury. Yeah. And he's just like giving really good, succinct orders that are smart, you know? And Rick does that a lot. Just very strategic.

[01:19:07] I wonder if we go down, go down the line of, it's like an addiction if his final kind of fall is going to the prison. Like he goes to look at Pete in that underwater shot and then he's driving through the woods to the prison. It's like his last temptation is to go back there and see what happens. Like he holds back from it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's not just scouting, but it's also, let me go look at it and see what comes up for me. Like if I actually. Maybe it's therapy.

[01:19:37] It's like, you know, just expose yourself to the trigger. Yeah. And you're like, uh, maybe not. Maybe I'm done with all this. They seem happy. You know what? It's kind of ugly from the outside anyways. Yeah. Right. I don't even like it here. It's a rickety old fence. Yeah. But that is me. All right. I'm, I'm through all my notes too. We've talked about everything. What about IMDB stuff? IMDB stuff's not that interesting this week. Um, there's the one about it's hinted. We don't have to do it if it's not interesting. No, some of them are. Okay.

[01:20:07] Uh, it's hinted that the beheaded soldiers and suicide victim were in fact in the presence of the governor at some point. Nah. I did wonder if because they were soldiers and were sort of in a fairly near geographic area to the governor, but I don't think that's implicit. The tank shown next to the governor's trailer in the opening scene appears to be the US M60A1 medium battle tank first designed in the late 1950s and in service between 1962 and 1980.

[01:20:34] Um, the actors who play Mitch, Lily and Alicia all later appear on the sixth and seventh seasons of Arrow. Um, the first headless man, the governor and his men come across, which is liar, uh, foreshadows events in the next episode, beheading and liar. And that is IMDB. Um, I'm not going to lie. Um, I'm not going to lie. The timeline's driving me crazy because I think it's wrong.

[01:20:58] Um, allegedly on day 521 Martinez dies, which is the same day as all the chaos in D block. When Patrick, they wake up and find that Patrick has murdered people in the night and by biting them. Um, the day after is day 522 is when Pete puts himself in charge of the camp. And that is the day we see Tyrese, um, Daryl, Michonne and Bob on the radio at listening to terminus on the radio as they try and go and get supplies. Mm hmm.

[01:21:27] Day 523 governor takes control of camp puts body in lake. That's the day that Carol is exiled. Rick and Carl are protecting the prisons through the night and Glenn nearly dies. And then day 524, the governor goes to the lake to look at Pete and takes Michonne and the, and Herschel hostage. And that's the day of all the events of the mid season finale.

[01:21:49] I think this is wrong because I think it seems like the governor has been in charge a little bit longer, um, than 24 hours. When we see him taking control of the camp and sort of checking in on people and seeing how they're doing. To me, it felt like more days had passed, but according to the official timeline, this all happens in the space of three days. So is it official to argue? Or is it something that geeks made up? Anyone can edit a wiki. Yeah. That's all we have.

[01:22:19] That's all we have. So regardless, we are now in sync. We are on day 524 and things are about to get unfortunate at the prison. Yeah. I had forgotten too, that he, the governor didn't start rallying this new group to go to the prison until next week. So I guess that's the beginning of next week's episode. I was sure Megan was going to die in this episode. Me too. She dies now, right? And then I'm like, oh no. Yeah. I thought that's what prompted him to go. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:49] That's how I remembered it. Like that being the big, like turning point for him. Yeah. And that, can I just say that little girl? Oh, she's cute. It breaks my heart knowing what happens to her next week. And she's lovely. Every time she's in it, I'm like, oh, Megan. She's really good as well. She's really cute in that role. And like, she's helping her mom doing stuff. It's just nice. She, um, she's about the same age as one of my nieces and looks a lot like her.

[01:23:16] So it's really hard for me to watch it this time round because it just reminds me of my niece. It's so rough, isn't it? You're just like, oh, buddy. I'm not going to miss the skip next week. Judith, um, when she was littler, Judith looked exactly like this kid I used to babysit for who I was super fond of. So every time I see her, I'm like, oh, oh, oh. Only on The Walking Dead would you go and stare at your undead victims to give you inspiration to go kill more people.

[01:23:49] Only on The Walking Dead would a game of golf end quite as badly as this one. Only on The Walking Dead would a family road trip end with a mud pit full of zombies. Yeah, I like that one. I like that one.

[01:24:04] I like that one.

[01:24:58] I like that one. I like that one. I like that one. I like that one.

[01:25:21] I like that one. I like that one. It's an American show that's just relocated to France and then to Spain to shoot another version of an American show. This is an American show that's come into the continent and has not only just embraced,

[01:25:49] but also completely wrapped its arms around the history of the people inside the countries and regions that were shooting, which I think is actually, I think that's cool to have people working there. It's a huge deal in the UK. It's interesting in the UK. There's this massive game show called The Traitors. They film up in this Scottish castle up in the Highlands. I thoroughly recommend for binge watch, but I was reading something that they don't actually

[01:26:16] employ a lot of people from the local area in Scotland and it's an area with quite a lot of unemployment. BBC Scotland have staff up there, but they bring staff up from London. And I was like, yeah, that is actually not good. Like you should be employing local people for things where you can. And when you're bringing that kind of business into the area. Yeah. I think they even have writers, European writers, some. Um, but, uh, also that just makes, cause we sort of, you know, they kept saying season

[01:26:46] three is going to be in Spain, but at the end of season two, they're going through the channel to England and we saw, I think it's okay. I don't think people care if we talk about this, that there are, you know, we've seen some behind the scenes stuff of them putting up like telephone boxes on Spanish roads to make it look like London or something. And so I think probably what's going to happen is maybe a little piece of it will be in England, but then they'll get to Spain.

[01:27:15] Cause the way this sounds, they're really playing up the whole Spanish aspect of it. And I don't think they would do that if it was, uh, filmed in Spain, but set in England the whole time. Mm hmm. You know? And that would be a bit weird as well. Like, and yeah. Yeah. And also like, have you ever been to Spain? It's quite different to England. Yeah. I mean, the roads that they've chosen in the behind the scenes stuff. I'm like, Oh, I guess there are some parts of Spain that look like London. Oh, okay. At least that's what I thought. Interesting.

[01:27:45] Um, so comic book.com had an article, uh, about Coleman Domingo. Um, it was recounting actually an interview he did on the happy, sad, confused podcast. And he talked about when his agent first suggested he auditioned for fear of the walking dead. And, uh, it was really interesting to read all this stuff. He said, I was a theater snob. I was like, absolutely not. I was like, what's that? They said, you don't know the walking dead. It's a huge show on AMC. And I'm like, I don't watch TV.

[01:28:15] And so I know I really had an attitude when she said, after seeing the script, I think you would really like this immediately. I thought, obviously this person does not know me because she's going to send me some genre thing, some TV thing. I'm not interested in. She sends me the sides and it was fantastic. I didn't know TV could be like this. It was rich. It was great storytelling and a really provocative character. I had to take on the character. So I sent that tape in without even thinking about it. And then literally a couple of days later, I got an offer just from a self tape to be a series regular on fear of the walking dead.

[01:28:44] And, you know, we always wonder what they think about how the show went later on. But, um, I just think he's really grateful because he went on to talk about the impact the show had on his career. He said, fear of the walking dead literally did change my entire career. Just before that, I thought I had achieved what I was supposed to achieve. And I was kindly ready to step away from the whole industry. Things were just not progressing the way I thought that made sense. I wasn't booking roles. I wasn't working.

[01:29:12] I had no access or agency and I was entering my mid forties. I was like, I can't sustain this. I need to get a real job or at least a job that makes sense. The life of an artist was just too rocky for me at the time. And I was trying to make a decision where I wouldn't be bitter or hardened by this industry. I wanted to step away while I still loved it. But then fear of the walking dead gave me footing back in an industry in a new way. And he went on to star in HBO's euphoria with Zendaya.

[01:29:38] He won an Emmy for his role as Ali on that. He was nominated last year's Oscars for, um, civil rights activist by your roost. Rustin has, I say it. Rustin Netflix is Rustin. Um, he's going to be, Oh, he's in it now. He's voicing Norman Osborn in, um, the Marvel friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. And he's coming up. I didn't even know this Edgar Wright's doing a take on running man.

[01:30:05] And, uh, he's going to be the host of the running man show, you know? And, um, then also Russo brothers directed sci-fi film, the electric state with Millie, Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt. So fear the walking dead. Yeah. Kept him going in order to do these greater things. So I think that's pretty cool. He's, um, he's also nominated for an Oscar again this year, um, for his role as best actor in, um, the film sing sing. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:35] So that's two consecutive Oscar nominations. So yeah, he's doing phenomenally well, isn't he? That's really lovely to hear it came off the back of fear because something good came out Yeah. Something positive to say about it at least, you know, and he's like, he's really doing so well at the moment. Yeah. He's in everything and he's in the color purple as well. That came out last year. Right. Um, and to be honest, that film I thought was okay, but he stat his performance to stand out to me.

[01:31:04] Um, yeah, he played a not very nice guy, but he said most of the film, you hate him. He's horrible. Yeah. But then he, you, you get to see a bit of his vulnerability and you actually end up feeling sorry for him. And that's his acting to make you feel empathy for such a horrible person. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And he's, uh, I, you know, he came in, uh, towards kind of towards the end of the whole

[01:31:31] Walker Stalker thing and went to several of those and maybe in the middle actually. And he was fabulous guy. He, he came impeccably dressed and, uh, he just had, was full of energy and he was great on panels and just entertaining as hell and super nice. Really cool. Really cool guy. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's move on to the list of modes, grunts and grunts.

[01:32:01] You want to go first Rebecca? Yeah. Uh, so first one's from Jacob Decker. He says, honestly, I cannot wait for the fall of the prison. RIP Herschel, but I can't stand the governor. Uh, sorry, but I cannot stand the governor, but as for the whole group and directing process, they had to do it with the group being separated. Yeah. So he's like, I don't want, I don't even like this episode. I'm always like, he sees it as a means to an end, I guess. I wonder if people like sometimes when they listen to the podcast, they might appreciate

[01:32:31] it a little bit more. I hope so. Because I know we all did. Yeah. This episode, I mean, these episodes get so much hate. Um, I was a bit like, Oh, people probably aren't even going to listen to this episode because they hate the governor, but I'm hoping if people do listen, one or two might be swayed a little bit. I mean, I've heard several times that people don't have enough time for rewatching the show right now, but they're still listening to the podcast anyway. Okay. And they kind of get their fix of the show through hearing us talk about it, which is

[01:33:00] kind of fun. I like that. Um, Becky Anderson says, very interesting how with each conversation the governor had throughout this episode, you could see the wheels spinning. His true self came out again and his ruthlessness took hold. That look of pure evil on his face when he saw Michonne at the end gave me chills. Yeah, I know Becky. The fact she was smiling as well. Um, I think the governor is one of the best TV villains of all time. He makes my skin crawl. I'm not looking forward to what comes next, but I will be glad when he's gone.

[01:33:28] Hats off to David Morrissey for some incredible acting. Yeah. He's amazing. But she said he makes me skin crawl. Like, I think that's like Popeye. He makes me skin crawl. Oh, maybe she's like English. Cause we say that like, uh, he makes me skin crawl. Yeah. That's good. Lucy. All right. Here's Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve.

[01:33:55] And this is going to be for the walking dead season four, uh, dead weight. Okay. So we, I don't know. We started out with the governor washing his face and a chest set, but now we're flashing back to the pit and, uh, right where we left off last episode. Oh, and the governor's father used to beat him apparently. But I guess we were getting cutting back and forth between the two scenes. Oh, he said dead weight. The title of the episode might drop. Martinez is in charge. Contribute or be cast out. Oh, and they have a tank. Uh, that's the cold open.

[01:34:24] Oh, they're approaching the survivalist cabin and they found a headless body with lyre on the body. Oh, they found the heads. They're still squawking. And there's more walkers, but Brian making short work of this one. Oh, Martinez talking about the old place, Woodbury, but, uh, it ain't there anymore. Of course, Brian's not telling them that he used to be in charge of that place. It's leaking through the roof. I mean, it's not raining or anything. So why is there water coming in? Oh, Martinez and Brian up on top of the roof hitting golf balls.

[01:34:53] Oh, I forgot the governor just hit him with the golf club. The governor doesn't want to share the crown, does he? Oh, and he's going to put him in the pit with the, with the bite or with the zombies? Oh. Oh, and of course they found him in the pit and, uh, they think he got drunk and fell in. How long do you think it's been that they've been to this camp? Because I mean, they have their own trailer and, uh, they've kind of settled in here. And now they're talking about having a vote to see who the next leader is going to be instead of this guy. Oh, I see. Now they've found another camp. What's this tank guy's name?

[01:35:21] The one who's proposing that they rob this, uh, this other camp and Pete doesn't want to do it. Of course, Brian is becoming the governor again. Oh, what happened to the people of this camp now? Oh, some other group robbed him. And now Brian wants to leave. Maybe he's not, but no, I don't know what he's having. He's wants to leave though. When they brought Alicia with them and they're in there. Oh, this is the truck that they had, right? Oh, it's another kind of car that they've got that they left in. I guess. I guess we're just yada yada. They convinced Alicia to go with them and they have this vehicle now.

[01:35:49] Oh, zombies stuck in the mud pits. Okay. So mud pit zombies made him turn around and go back to the camp. What was the point of that? And what's the governor going to do to survive now? Cause now he looks like he's in full on governor mode. Mitch, that's tank guy's name. Yeah. Then Brian just killed Pete. Oh, and he's got his governor coat on now. So it was Pete Mitch's brother. And the governor dumps his body in the lake. And Brian has taken over. Oh no. A zombie just got Megan.

[01:36:18] Well, governor shot that zombie. And now he's looking at Pete in the lake and he's found the prison. And now he's watching Herschel. Oh, Herschel and Michonne. That was the scene that stood out to me the most about this episode was zombie Pete underwater. I love our heckling back of Steve. We're like, dad, Mitch. I like to try to answer all his questions in real time. It's good. I just say, I got my first life Steve. Yay. I've been listening to them for years.

[01:36:48] I was hoping he'd ring in for this one. But actually, in answer to one of his questions, literally just a minute ago, when we had our bathroom break, my husband actually said, I just realized that when there was that leaking hole in the roof, there wasn't actually any rain. And his theory was that Martinez was taking a piece off of the RV. Oh, my God. You ought to fix that. So maybe that answers your question, Steve. I don't know. That would be amazing. That's why the governor kept like throwing his brow.

[01:37:18] What is that? What? What's that smell? Maybe there's some like coolant or something. But no, I think it's Martinez. Yeah, it's very warm rain. Salty. Nathan Eshelman says, there's a Shumpert sized hole in my heart this week. After our conversation last week, I tried to do more digging into the character. I couldn't find out why he was killed off screen, but I found some interesting stuff about his time on the show. Travis Love, great guy.

[01:37:45] Travis love to worked in the prop department and he actually prepped the weapons that would go on to be used by his character. He was someone on the crew who had acting expert aspirations, and he got the opportunity to be a featured extra on the days where he wasn't acting. He would still take part in working on the crew. What really blew my mind is this wasn't even his first appearance on the show. He was one of the Vatos in season one who had a hold of Glenn. Picture attached. He sent a picture of the Vato on the roof, holding Glenn over the side. They've reused a few extras over the years.

[01:38:15] One of the elderly women from Vato's nursing home was in Martinez's group this week as well. I never went to a Walker Stalker con and a part of me feels like I missed out on the golden era of Walking Dead fan meetups. I know some of the bigger names still do cons, but the window to meet these cool actors who play supporting roles seems pretty small these days. Yeah. I mean, we had a lot of these guys and we, I would do panels called dead men of the Walking Dead and I'd get all like the secondary characters and just put them together on a panel. Yeah. That's amazing. That's really interesting.

[01:38:44] It's a bit like a Harrison Ford story he's got going on there. Yeah. Yeah. Being on the crew. He was a carpenter, right? Yeah. Harrison Ford. And Cooper Andrews, I think he was on the crew too. Jerry. Oh, wow. Before he became Jerry. I love him, Jerry. I think so. Jerry. Okay. Thomas from Arizona called. He wanted me to mention up front that he accidentally says seasons two and three in this message when he meant seasons three. And four. So here's Thomas.

[01:39:13] Hi, Jason. Hi, Lucy. It's Thomas. I'm back, baby. I love him. It's been a long time. Oh, shouldn't have left you without a dope beat to step two. Um, I didn't really leave. I just took a leave of absence from the show. Uh, last episode I watched was like season two, episode one, the seed. And then I realized the governor was coming up. Yeah.

[01:39:40] I was just like, uh, the governor line, governor storyline kind of tires me. So I wasn't interested in watching it, but I still listen to every podcast. And then, oh, you guys just made it sound so enticing a couple of weeks ago. I was like, let me just jump back in where they're at. So I jumped right into season three. And to be fair, the episode that I just watched, um, last week where focused on the governor and his story.

[01:40:06] I found that story very intriguing and I might have to just go back and watch season two. Um, three. Anyways, one of the parts of the episode that I thought was pretty funny. I thought share is when the governor went to that muddy moat and all the walkers were like in the mud. And I'm kind of confused about like why they couldn't get out of the mud. Because if you look in the background, there's a guy on all fours just crawling around in the background.

[01:40:37] And it was a funny thing to me because I'm sure this extra was this guy. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I'm not in the mud. So I'll just crawl around on all fours. So if you didn't check that out, I strongly suggest check it out because it gave me a nice chuckle. Um, that's all I wanted to say. Hey, I'm so excited to get into this season and I'm looking forward to, um, what's lies ahead?

[01:41:03] Because I honestly, my memory is very vague about what happens to this little family he's following around. Clearly they're going to die, but I just don't remember at whose hands on how it works. So I'm looking really forward to the season. Hope you guys are doing great. Take care. Bye. Thomas. Good to hear from you. Love that guy. That's awesome. Uh, and the rest of season four is top notch if I remember right. It's the best. Yeah.

[01:41:32] Um, um, I wonder if Thomas is into the last of us too. Let, let me know, Thomas, see if you'll be along with us for that ride coming up pretty soon here. Are you Rebecca? I haven't played the second game yet. Um, Oh yeah. You watch the show. Yeah. Yeah. I watched the show, but, uh, the, the second, yeah. So actually I've got the next week off work for annual leave and, um, the weather actually is, is not going to be great. So I'm like, Hmm, maybe I'll stay home and play the last of us too.

[01:42:00] And head of, uh, the new show coming out. So I don't want to watch the show until I've played the game. Okay. Um, but you know, I remember now that I'm thinking about it, I remember you watch the show because you called in and you were like, Jason, you've been talking up this game so much. And I watched the show and I got to say, I'm disappointed. And then you called in a few episodes later and you're like, no, you're right. This is really good. Do you know what it was the episode with Nick Offerman and Mary Bartlett? Yeah.

[01:42:28] Oh, that was one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. Like that episode was insanely good. Yeah. So good. I hope they can keep it up. All right. Boots to fill. Who's next? I think it's Rebecca, right? I think it's me. Yes. This is Billy Thompson. Uh, hello. Hello. Hope you guys are well. I can't remember the first time watching this episode. If I thought maybe the governor had changed his ways. I think that's what they want you to believe until that camera pans out. You see the tank and you know, damn well, the governor is back with a vengeance.

[01:42:59] I seem to be really appreciating Tara a lot more of this rewatch. I know we've only seen her over two episodes so far, but I never enjoyed her character this much on previous rewatches. The girl at the camp calling out her bullshit and just admitting it was brilliant. And it's like a laughing, crying, laughing emoji. Uh, is there any character you guys seem to be enjoying a lot more this time around so far in the rewatch? I'm trying to think. Ooh. Hmm. Daryl for me. Yeah. I love Daryl.

[01:43:28] I've always been a Daryl fan. I wasn't so much. I mean, I wasn't anti Daryl, but I wasn't as big a Daryl fan until later in the show. And now coming back to the rewatch, I'm like, I love Daryl so much. Yeah. He's really, really grown on me. Oh, I'm so happy. Appreciating him a lot more this time around. Oh, that's, that's good for me. Cause I love, I love Daryl. Daryl is one of my favorites. Um, I don't think it's anyone I'm enjoying more. There's people I'm irritating me more like, um, yeah.

[01:43:58] Well, Andrea, obviously. Um, and Lori, um, just the more, this is my third time. Like, like I've watched it once and this is my second rewatch. So it's like the third time. Um, and the second and third time, Lori and Andrea, like the more I watch it, the more they really just, I hate them. It's so good that they get out of the way early. Right? I know, but we won't dwell too much on that. Cause that's obviously in the past.

[01:44:24] Um, so carrying on from Billy, he said, uh, we get a little bit more backstory on the infamous Fort Benning this episode, when Martinez and the gang are talking about what they were doing at the time of the fall. And the ex soldier says he was stationed there and stuck around for a while afterwards. So it must've been okay for a while, at least. Um, I think that answers what you were talking about earlier, Jason. Yeah.

[01:44:45] Um, so do you guys think the governor lured the Walker over to the camp to purposely attack someone or even Megan to get the group slash Lily's vote to make a move on the prison? No. And I, I don't think, I think not, he wouldn't jeopardize Megan. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think anything would make him do that. But interesting take on it though. Um, uh, and I have to point out Tara trying to pull it off and just ripping the bits of flesh off. It was so awesome. It was great.

[01:45:15] Um, a lot better episode than the last in my opinion. And I feel bad being such a downer on the last episode. It wasn't that I don't like the governor because I believe he's maybe the best villain in the series. I just don't think the last episode was the strongest, but it was absolutely necessary to the story as a whole. I agreed. Anyway, thanks guys. Bye. Bye. Thanks Billy. I got to say bye. Bye. That was really good. You get a checklist for things. It's live Steve.

[01:45:44] You get to say bye. You tell someone not to get bit. That's coming up. All right. We're not going to do that this time. Actually, we decided. I'm just kidding. No, don't take that away from me. Here's one more call from Renee. Renee. This is Renee. Tara is so cute. When I tell you I love me some Tara, Tara brought a different vibe to the walking dead that I never knew that we needed.

[01:46:10] She definitely passed the vibe check, especially when she does a little pound it. I think that is super cute. Although you guys are going to be hearing me say that a lot about a lot of the new characters is coming up and I cannot wait till we get past this governor arc. I cannot wait until it's over, even though it's going to be bittersweet, but I want it to be over. So rest in peace to Martinez and Pete. They were some really good dudes before the psychopath Brian Philippe decided to kill them.

[01:46:39] Like he is a clear psychopath. Did you guys see how Brian Philippe paused from drinking his beer when Lily said that this is the first time I felt safe since it all started? It's like, sir, seriously. I mean, he just stopped. He just like he had to be here getting ready to take a sip and he just stopped because he cannot handle anyone else getting any attention besides himself. He's the greatest. He's the best of the best. Everyone loves him. He's just blah, blah, blah.

[01:47:06] He is a clear psychopath, a clear narcissist. Like it makes no sense. And I cannot wait until he is dead. I want him to die quick, fast and in a hurry. And I meant to mention to you guys, I forgot Madeline. That's what I've been meaning to say. Madeline, I listened to your podcast with you and Jason. Oh, I love you. I love you. I love you. And your mother and father sound like my type of people.

[01:47:35] They sound like they listen. They sound like we can hang out. We will have a great time together. And also I wanted to mention. Stuck in about the I did a listener chit chat, which is another patron exclusive thing. I do sometimes just interview one of the listeners, Madeline, Joe, whose parents met at clown college. Oh, my God. Clown college. Yeah. Amazing. My new guilty pleasure is welcome to the apocalypse. Thank you so much, Jason, for introducing me to that.

[01:48:04] I think I'm on episode four when they were in the mall with a little kid. Yeah. You guys really get me through my gym workout. Hilarious. Do you hear me? Hilarious. She's like advertising. Everything's for us. But that's our zombie improv podcast. That isn't patron exclusive. You can find that at podcast.com. Thank you, Renee. But yeah, I cannot wait until the governor dies. And that is all I have to say. So I will talk to you.

[01:48:34] Oh, oh, oh, oh. I'm always forgetting what I really that I've been meaning to say. And I forgot. Sherpert. I saw him on the Wakanda, the Black Panther, Wakanda forever. One of my favorite movies ever. So I rewatched it again. Just, just, I just felt like watching it again. And he, I never noticed him. I'm assuming because we're doing our rewatch, Walking Dead. I never noticed that that was him.

[01:49:00] He is on a team with Matumba, the one, the gorillas, I guess the ones that live in the mountain where it's cold. Yeah. Oh my God. I could not believe when I saw him. Like, okay. Okay. All right. I'll see you, Shupert. All right. Talk to you guys later. Peace and love. Bye-bye. Didn't know that. Bye Renee. I love Renee's cause. I love them so much. I love how thirsty she is for Rick.

[01:49:26] I was actually, about six months ago, I was listening at the gym. I was on the treadmill and I just taking a swig of water and she makes, I can't even remember what the comment was, but it was so thirsty for Rick. And I literally sprayed my drink everywhere because I was laughing so much. Oh my God. I can't listen to her at the gym anymore. I love it. It's a danger, right? It is. It is. Yeah. It's so funny. I love her cause.

[01:49:59] All right. That is our show episode 625. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Thank you, Rebecca. It's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. You said, oh, in that segment where you ask people to promote stuff, there's something I would like to promote. So go ahead. Yeah. So it's not anything artistic like most of your people, but I just wanted to talk a little bit about adopting and fostering pets, particularly rescue animals.

[01:50:26] So we recently started fostering two beautiful cats, one of which you can see behind me right now in a little ball. She's a forager. Yeah. That's Poe and her little friend, Cooper, who's a ginger tabby. And I just want to promote it really because there's so many animals like cats, dogs, rabbits, lots of animals that desperately need just a loving home.

[01:50:51] And these charities that take them in, unfortunately, if they don't find homes for them, they often get euthanized. And these are perfectly healthy animals who are very gentle and kind and loving and just want to be loved. So I just wanted to sort of say if anybody's thinking about getting a pet, I would suggest not buying one either from a breeder or a pet shop or from marketplace, but actually going to your local shelter or local charity and just seeing what they've got there because

[01:51:22] these two little cats have changed my life, honestly. And we started off fostering. We ended up adopting them. The paperwork went through about two weeks ago. And we just knew immediately that we couldn't part with them. We just fell in love with them. And the other thing as well is if you're not sure you want a pet, maybe just consider fostering because it's a short term, you know, no big commitment. And actually that's why we fostered first of all, because we hadn't had a pet for a long time.

[01:51:51] We wanted to make sure that we were willing, you know, able to take on that commitment. So it's a really good way of, you know, if you're not sure you're ready for a full time pet. Yeah. And also fostering is actually really important because a lot of these animals, the adoption process can take quite a long time and they desperately need homes in the interim because their shelters just get too full. And generally they pay for everything. So they'll pay for, you know, the vet care, the medication, the food, the litter. They pay for everything. They just need homes.

[01:52:21] So, you know, please, if you're thinking about it, just yeah. Yeah. And actually, if I could give a little shout out to the charity that we used. So if anyone's in the Melbourne area, they're called Beagle Freedom Australia. And despite the name, it's not just beagles. They do cats, rabbits, dogs, all sorts of breeds. So, and our little two were actually rescued from a research facility, but they'd spent their life in a laboratory being tested on.

[01:52:51] So, yeah, you know, and they are just so gentle and so loving. And it just, you know, it's very rewarding to know that we can make their last few years happy and safe. Yeah. And I can confirm it is a cat and not a beagle in a cat suit. Yeah. Yes. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. I love that message. Thanks for letting me talk about it. Aw, they're my little babies. You'll never go back. I love my cat so much too. Yeah. All right.

[01:53:21] That's great. Next episode of this podcast will be The Walking Dead Season 4, Episode 8, Too Far Gone and we'll have Jim on with us for that one. So, I look forward to that. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-C-A dot com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts. We've got a ton coming out right now.

[01:53:46] We did our Yellow Jackets catch up a couple days back to get ready for Season 3, which premiered today as we're recording this and we'll be recording our first episode on that today. We also have White Lotus this weekend and the last five Cobra Kai episodes just came out. So, I'm busy. Yeah, Jason, are you going to sleep at all? I'm busy. I'm busy. This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Donna who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi.

[01:54:15] So, thank you to Donna and everyone else who does that. Donna gets to hear about Madeline Jo's parents who met at Clown College. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Scott Carl Whittam. We'll see you next time. We're on the show.