635: "Through the Valley" (The Last of Us S2E2)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh. I'm gonna give you one chance to tell the truth, Joel. If you do, let's face it, we'll all know I'll let her live. Wait, Abby- SHUT!

[00:00:29] Where was the last place you saw the fireflies? Salt Lake. At least you're honest. I saved your life. What life?

[00:01:27] Hey, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Eric. And I'm Ben. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 635. And this episode, we're covering The Last of Us, season two, episode two, Through the Valley. Of the Shadow of Death. Do we have to? Can we just talk about last week again? Back when things were light and all you had to worry about was your therapist drinking too much.

[00:01:56] So, it's interesting because I was looking at reactions to this just on our post that we put up. And one thing that's really cool, I think, is there were a lot of people saying, I didn't know this was going to happen. I didn't play the games and I managed not to be spoiled. So, I'm really happy about that, especially that we didn't mess it up for at least too many people, hopefully. Because we have talked about it a lot behind the spoiler warnings.

[00:02:24] But also, you know, people are, had varying levels of, okay, this is really rough, but I can't wait to see what happened next. Versus, I can't handle this, you know? Yeah. And I don't blame you. And just especially the way things are in the world today, I think for some people, it might just be like, fuck, man. Why do I have to watch something so dark like this? And I actually always kind of thought, dude, we, we, this is a walking dead podcast.

[00:02:52] We know that after, I mean, I'm going to spoil something from the walking dead, but it happened like 10 years ago. After Negan killed Glenn and Abraham, the viewership went down. And now, I mean, we have known that this was going to happen since before season one even aired. Five years. All watching it. Yeah. And, and, and the whole time I'm sort of like, how is this going to be received? Are they really going to do it? I mean, Neil Druckmann, he's, he's like Abby.

[00:03:20] He, if he gets fixated on something, he's going to do it. So he's never wavered. Like we're going to do the same story, but here it is. So we'll have to see how people react so far. I think the reaction seems like it's pretty good. Well, and I saw the same thing reading the comments on like entertainment weeklies post about it or varieties post about it. All the biggers was mixed. It was can't wait to see where they're going to go with it. And every once in a while you come across the one that was like, well, I'm never watching this show again. I'm done with this show.

[00:03:48] It's like, well, you were clearly watching this show for the wrong reasons. Then if Pedro not being in the show, well, no, their, their judgment of it was, if Pedro is not going to be in the show, I'm not going to watch. Oh yeah. Yeah. You didn't know you're watching for the wrong reasons, but now you're, you're watching it. Now you know my wife had a hard time with that episode. Um, not just because of Pedro dime, but the, the whole horde and, and all of that was so tense for her.

[00:04:16] Uh, she was just like, I can't, I'm having a hard time, having a hard time. And then at the very end it was basically, I hate her. I hate her. Does Ellie kill her? You know? Yeah. So she didn't know about the game. She did. I don't know how she couldn't have with Maggie and I in the house playing it for the last hundred years, but she really is good. Does a great job of ignoring it. So I don't know. I'm sure she knew that, but I don't think maybe she knew how a brutal would be or just how much it would impact her or whatever it is.

[00:04:45] But this, this episode, uh, aside from that ending, holy, holy mackerel of an episode. Wow. Yeah. If you love our internet zaddy Pedro Pascal, and that's one of the reasons why you're upset. I absolutely cannot blame you who would. Um, but I guess one of the sort of silver linings is he's going to be Reed Richards in

[00:05:09] fantastic four in June and he'll be the Mandalorian in the Mandalorian Grogu next year. I know that's probably, um, you know, not a lot of consolation for some people, but like when they cast him, I almost thought, Oh wow. Was that a mistake? Cause he's so damn lovable that people are going to be hurt even more when he gets killed.

[00:05:35] You know, maybe they should have cast a guy who wasn't so like, well, pretty damn likable in the game too though. Are they going to pull a Ben Linus where he was only supposed to be in it for four episodes and they ran him in, they wrote him into the end of the series. They're going to change it for, for Pedro. Well, let's get into the episode. Uh, Eric, would you like to read the plot summary? Okay. The last of us season two, episode two through the Valley.

[00:06:00] After taking shelter in a mansion near Jackson, Abby remains steadfast in her mission to kill Joel while her friends concerned about the town's defenses consider retreating while scoping out Jackson. Abby accidentally awakens a large horde of infected hiding under the snow. She escapes and is saved by Joel on patrol with Dina. The horde make their way to Jackson leading to a battle where the town suffers heavy damage and casualties.

[00:06:27] Abby brings Joel and Dina to the mansion where Dina is knocked out and Abby reveals herself to be the daughter of the firefly doctor who Joel killed at the hospital. She shoots and brutally beats Joel with a golf club. Ellie enters the mansion, but is restricted by Abby's party and forced to watch helplessly as Abby fatally stabs Joel in the neck with the broken golf club's handle. Ellie promises to kill Abby and Abby's group leaves.

[00:06:55] As Jackson begins to recover from the battle, Ellie, Dina, and Jesse return home with Joel's body. Dragged behind them. Oof. Ugh. Okay. Who wants to go first? Um, if you don't mind, I'll kick things off just because I, I wasn't there last. I wasn't with you guys last week. Um, but I, I was on the feedback episode from this past week though.

[00:07:23] And one of the things that I had said on that episode was that I was sold on Caitlin Dever as Abby from the moment I saw her in that moment where they were all by the firefly crosses. If that wasn't the case in that episode, this episode, man, I am 100%.

[00:07:44] I'm 200% behind Caitlin Dever as Abby from, I mean, cause in this episode you didn't just get the physical presence of Abby. Like we got in the first episode, this one, you felt the anguish. You felt the, the fury and everything behind what that attack was and everything leading up to it. And physical appearance be damned with like the muscles and everything.

[00:08:13] I don't care. Caitlin Dever is Abby to me at this point. Like this, I don't need to be convinced any more than I already am in two episodes that this was the right casting for Abby. Yeah, she was phenomenal. Yeah, absolutely. Don't have any notes on that. She was great. And I didn't know her from anything else, but you could tell almost in just the first few seconds that she was going to be good. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:41] But just, but just seeing this whole portrayal, the speech that she gave to Joel before it all happened, it just, everything was there. The emotion, all of it. I felt, I felt Abby like this was, this was great. This was perfect. I mean, we're going to get to see, well, we're really trying not to give any spoilers at all, but you know, she's going to be in the series some more. And I'll just say, you know, you're going to see different sides of her.

[00:09:09] So I don't have any doubt that Caitlin Dever can pull it off and I'm excited to see what she'll do with the role. Well, even the scene earlier on in the episode two, where it's, it's clearly in her head where she's talking to herself, where she's trying to convince herself not to go into the room to see where her father is. It's that great. It's a great example of how she can portray that inner turmoil that Abby is, is facing herself.

[00:09:36] So it's already kind of giving us a little bit of behind the scenes of Abby of this is not just a straight up vengeance role. This is, that's a majority of it, but she's, she's conflicted with this herself. Oh yeah. Yeah. With what she wants to do with what she should do. Yeah. She is a night. I agree. That's what that was all about. It was just showing that inner conflict. And it made me think of that thing about the two wolves. There's a battle inside of each of us between two wolves.

[00:10:06] One is anger, envy, pride, vengeance. The other is kindness, compassion, forgiveness, hope. The one that wins is the one you feed. And she's feeding the bad wolf or while the angry wolf, I should say, I don't want to judge it quite yet, but I think she has a lot of turmoil. That was where we really saw any kind of conflict the most in that dream sequence.

[00:10:32] But when she's really in her fixated on vengeance mode, that fully takes over. Like she's very pure in her hatred at times, you know, she's possessed by vengeance. Yeah. I thought they really did a phenomenal job of making a 19, making a 19 year old Abby seem different than the current 24 year old Abby in that dream.

[00:10:57] She seemed like a younger kid than her older self and making a point of saying, you know, I was 19 and I had to watch my father on the ground dead. Well, that's exactly what, how old Ellie is right now. She's 19. And she had to watch it too. Yeah.

[00:11:14] I know it was kind of mentioned in the making of, so it's not an original thought of my own, but they made a good point in that Abby in doing everything that she did in her, in her quest for vengeance, literally just created another version of herself and Ellie. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, by, by literally setting up the exact same scenario of standing over your dead father with his brains knocked out, you know? Yeah. Um, same thing. That's why they call it the cycle of violence.

[00:11:41] And when we reviewed this game, the first time Eric and I, I was mentioning how this game really brought that concept home to me in a way that I didn't quite get it before because you're playing it, you know, you're kind of embodying it. Well, let me go on and talk a little bit more about just Abby, how her determination and her progression through this episode. So they wake up in the morning, the light is there.

[00:12:09] They're intimidated by the size and the defenses of Jackson and the seeming competency, I guess. And then she proposes, they ambush a patrol, tie them up and make them tell where Joel is. And Mel's like one of the women in her group, we say, we said, we weren't going to hurt anyone else, just Joel. And Abby's like, Mel, fuck, relax. We'd bluff, scare them.

[00:12:33] But I think it's clear based on her friends reactions to her that you can't trust any of that with her. And they, they don't trust it. That's why I don't trust it. That, you know, she may fly off the handle and kill anyone. They just know how fixated she is on this. There's a lot of side eye going on. Yeah. When she's talking about all the time. Yeah. Like none of them really wants to be there.

[00:12:59] You can tell, you know, maybe, maybe Manny is okay with it, but the one guy, then Owen tells them he wants to try to talk Abby into calling it off, which I loved. He's like, I have a plan. And what's your plan? We're going to try to get her. That was a good plan. Yeah. That was funny too. Um, and then, uh, you know, I mean, they're all like, I, they're fireflies, they're ex fireflies. So they were idealists. They were freedom fighters.

[00:13:26] They were trying to find a cure for the zombie thing or the infected. Sorry. They, they believed in hope, you know, I mean, fireflies get violent, but they're idealists. They're trying to save people. So they don't really want to be here on this vengeance mission except for Abby. And, um, I wonder. We got to have someone on who hasn't played the games. I mean, Lucy's going to be here for the feedback episode. Cause I want to know how they're receiving this whole group. Yeah.

[00:13:56] I am so sad. She isn't on this episode. I was really, really looking. I mean, I wasn't supposed to be here. I wanted Lucy to be here so I could actually hear the, the non video game, uh, side of it. I, I'm dying to hear that. Yeah. Well, here's something from the listeners next in a few days to when we do that feedback episode. Um, so then Abby goes on watch to let, to buy Owen some time while he figures out his concept of a plan.

[00:14:21] And, uh, she sees a patrol and decides, ah, just do my plan right now. And slides down this hill lands among all, all these bunch of frozen infected, which was just creepy in and of itself. Such a cool set piece. I loved, I thought that was just, uh, creepy. And then they all start sinking down and it felt kind of psychedelic to me. And, uh, did you think that clicker was like turning around? Yeah.

[00:14:50] I couldn't tell what was scatter like, but it wasn't like they said, uh, early on, which we'll get to, they were saying the frozen ones on top were dead, but they kind of insulated the ones underneath. There's always some kind of twist. It seems like a cordyceps. It's like a cordyceps in igloo, right? Blanket, a blanket blanket. And then one hand burst through the ice, which that's like my favorite thing. If anybody's listened to this podcast for a long time knows.

[00:15:18] So I got to say like the zombie slash infected stuff in this episode, it holds up to any zombie movie or, you know, whatever infected rage virus movie to me. I thought it was just as good as anything. Right. I thought it was one of the best I'd seen quite honestly of the genre. I, and I just like how I have, I kind of have it ingrained in your head now that you say zombie or infected movie. I don't want to offend you, Ben.

[00:15:50] I know you're sensitive about it. No, no, no, no. It's your show. You can call it whatever you want. But no, I'm, I'm right there with you. I thought this was, this, this stood up to anything that we saw the best of anything we saw season one. I mean, this is, and this is only, this is only episode two of the season. I mean, I have a feeling that this episode, I don't, I'm not going to count on getting anything this big. No, they pulled out, they pulled out a majority of the stops for this episode. They put some budget into it.

[00:16:18] Well, and there was that question in the first episode when we were coming back. It's like, well, they're going to have as many infected as last season. Will, will they, will it be as many or less? You know, I, we got, we have our answer. Yeah. I mean, that was just awesome. That was so awesome. And there were hundreds of them sprinting after her. And I just think the fast raging Zeds are just scarier than the slow ones. And thank you, Danny Boyle. And I'm like, too bad they didn't catch her though.

[00:16:43] But anyway, then she goes up the wall ladder and there's this great top down view of hundreds of them growling up at her. Beautiful. Just the whole episode is beautiful too. That's another great thing about it. But I would say, I don't know if it's necessary to get into, but I still maybe would put hard home a little higher. The game of Thrones. Okay. I mean, yeah. I know there it's, it's, they're, they're both really high quality HBO productions.

[00:17:11] I mean, that's one of the things that was in my head when I was watching this was because it's wintry and it's, yeah. Yeah. But it also, but when you, when you switch and I know we'll talk more about Jackson a little bit later too, but when you switch to like the defenses that Jackson was doing with the barrels rolling down, like that gave me major Helm's deep vibes from Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also there's some game of Thrones episodes like that more with the giants and stuff. Yeah.

[00:17:38] But so then we get, she's between this chain link fence and the building and the infected smashing in on her and it got the passageway getting narrow and narrower. And one, one Zed's hand pushing so hard through the chain link that it started to split between the fingers. Oh, so gross. So great. I mean, we're getting to like, I would say with the walking dead and this show, it brings

[00:18:05] people who wouldn't normally be fans of horror movies in because it's all about the drama and the characters and the, the monsters are just kind of a thrill on the, on the side. But, um, I'm a zombie fan. I'm a horror fan. So when we get stuff like this, I'm just like kind of giddy about it. There was so much anxiety in watching everything and the tension of everything from Abby running until the end of the episode where no lie.

[00:18:32] I mean, and I didn't realize it until after the episode was over and I realized I was doing it. I had a bottle of water in my hand and it was literally like clutched in my hand close to my face. Like I was trying to hug something the whole time I was watching it. And it got to the point where I was at the end of the episode. I was like, well, this has been in my hand the whole time.

[00:18:53] Oh, so any listener who wants to send, um, Ben a teddy bear, he needs a little stuffed, a little stuffed, uh, infected, a little stuffed clicker. Oh, it's biting my neck out. I would take a stuffed clicker. That would be so cute. Uh, so then, um, well, I think it's okay to say during this part when I was watching, cause I watch it with Jenny. She likes it. My wife.

[00:19:20] And, uh, when Abby was going through that little narrow passageway, you know, and there was nobody around yet. No, no infected. And Jenny's just like, is this part, is all this in the game? And we're like, yeah, this part is in the game. And then rawr, right? Yeah. Like on cue. And she's like, jump. Oh, and once, yeah. When she was sliding down the hill as well, I was laughing. Triangle, triangle, triangle, triangle. Uh, so then one jumps on her, probably going to eat her.

[00:19:49] Joel comes in, saves the day. He probably saved her life. Whoops. Uh, brings her inside. Dina's there. And then Dina calls to him, Joel. And that's when Abby knows you can see her face. She lucked out and immediately she's like, let's go to my lodge. Yeah. Let's go to my lodge with my friends. Are they armed? Yeah. Good. No, not good. Not good. And then, uh, then on the way, Joel sees the fire and Jackson, I need to go back there.

[00:20:18] But Abby's like, no, no, no, no, no. It's close. We've got blankets, ammo, uh, some hors d'oeuvres, you know, charcuterie. We're ready to go. Yeah. We got to go, man. It's the party's here. My friends can help you get back and fight. Just luring him away from helping his people. Like she doesn't give a shit. It's, it's only about, she's determined. Yeah. She's got this itch. There's only one thing that can scratch it. But I mean, she'd be dumb if she didn't based on her mission. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah, that's what she's there for. Yeah.

[00:20:48] Yeah. So I'll just take it up to there. That's, you know, where kind of the next phase starts. But Eric, you can go from there or go to something else. No, absolutely. We can go from there, which I think we're, you know, at this point we're talking about the horde baby. Oh yeah. Which was something else. I mean, like you were saying, just got hundreds, if not thousands of, uh, you know, clickers and runners. And I'm sure there was some stalker. I'll be all the different types of, of, uh, infected in that group.

[00:21:17] The stalkers were hiding in the trees. They, they didn't come out. They're shy. Fair enough. Okay. Probably. Yeah. Um, but everything, what I really appreciated about it was very much this, uh, they did a lot of showing and not telling, right. They were bringing out the barrels, but they didn't tell us what they were going to do. Yeah. Uh, we didn't know like what kind of tactics they're going to use, like rolling the barrels out and then shoot. I mean that, the whole process of it, I felt like it was, none of it got spelled out for us.

[00:21:44] We got little hints of something with, uh, Hey, stay off the main street. If there's a breach, we got to see them kind of get ready with the flamethrowers, which I know we had a listener last week who was really excited about seeing flamethrowers. Yeah. Wish granted, um, could have had four, got one and a half, you know, that was pretty cool though. Um, and then of course getting a bloater. Oh yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. That was so cool. And of course we had one last season, uh, one, you know, that was all on fire and looked

[00:22:13] rad and it was great and it was at night, but this one is just in the full light of day. Uh, just charging around, getting distracted by Tommy, all of that. I love the way that it was, uh, very targeted and who it would go after. And, and Maria was, you know, shooting at it. It's like, I'm going to take her out. Tommy's like, Oh hell no. I just, all of that. When he shot it and then he runs and he's ends up in a dead end where there's no escape. And then he goes, no. Oh. And I'm like, yeah, I've been there.

[00:22:43] Oh no. Absolutely. And you see those boxes. You're like, Oh, you can climb up those. No, you can't climb up those boxes. It looks like you're stuck, buddy. And, and, and I know some people hate when we talk about the games, but come on, this is so gamey when you, when he's blasting it with the flamethrower and it's kind of bustling its way to him and you just hope that you shot enough to kill it before you ran out. And yeah, like even seeing the meter going down and then, and then it falls down just

[00:23:13] like it does in the game. And then, um, the only thing that wasn't the same is it would have just burst it into a cloud of spores. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's almost all sorts of little things that we can, that I mean, but that, yes, that was definitely a very gamey, a gamey moment, but it was awesome. And I will say, Hey, just for everybody, uh, let's see, I mean, this was not in the game, this whole thing, this hoard, uh, it was not in the game. So this was really new for us as well. Yeah. And I think it was like usually a lot of fun.

[00:23:42] You almost always in this show so far, there have been way more infected in the game than the show, but not, not, not in this one. No, that would be, I would be so scared shitless if this were in the game. This would be such a cool level. I would absolutely love it. Um, but no, I, I really enjoyed seeing, uh, Tommy really taking the reins. Yeah. Like seeing Tommy, uh, with the community early on, uh, before Ellie goes out on patrol and all that, when he's, you know, laughing about Earl shooting himself in the leg.

[00:24:12] Don't be Earl. And just being a good leader and feeling that unity and respect coming from the group. It's just refreshing sometimes. Cause I always like shows where people are flawed and there's conflict, but it's kind of refreshing sometimes when it's just nice. It's like the Martian, right? It's like competency porn. It's seeing people being competent at what they're doing is like one of the greatest things ever. And seeing this group in this community really do a great job with that.

[00:24:41] And not just Tommy, but Maria as well. And you see that with Maria playing the peacekeeper or trying to play the keys peacekeeper with Seth and Ellie, uh, the way she is with, with the kid, you know, go tell daddy he did a good job. I mean, it is painting this wonderfully idyllic sort of situation in this extraordinarily terrible, uh, you know, world that just got blown to hell right now. I mean, there was a lot of death.

[00:25:10] There was a lot of damage. I love the scene with the hand bite and the guy just shoots him. Yeah. Like they're, they're just cutthroat. Oh, I didn't even see that. I'm messing around. I was at the end of the battle. Uh, one of the, the, one of the Jackson guys just shows his hand. You see the bite mark and he hands his gun over to the dude. Like, shoot me. And he does. Oh shit. Yeah. Wow. But yeah, but Eric, and you brought up a good point too of, you know, when Tommy gives that speech in the restaurant, you know, about like, if anything happens, you know, women

[00:25:40] and children go to the basement. Yeah. Um, you know, if everybody else go to the roof, what do you take with you? Guns, anything past that security will handle the rest. Yeah. And that's so left open ended and vague that we don't know what that means. And then we see what that means. Yep. Yeah. With the barrels and the gasoline and everything. Like we, flamethrowers, trucks barricading. Like we see like bottles being thrown. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:26:09] As much as, as much as there's destruction left behind, it would have been so much worse had they not been prepared. Oh yeah. And when you see them at the end, because you kind of see this whole battle, battle, battle, oh my God, intense. And, uh, I think the last part we see is when they let those dogs out who are so ferocious jumping up. And I don't even remember if we got dogs last season, probably, but they're in the game. Oh, I don't think so. But, um, anyway, that was just so ferocious.

[00:26:37] But then we cut away to everything with Abby and Joel and Ellie, and that really just fills up all the space after that. So then kind of forget about the infected. And then when we go back, it's just the aftermath with hundreds of them in the street and Tommy and, uh, Maria hugging. And so it was kind of interesting that you don't get to see how that winds down, but it didn't, we didn't need to, we just knew that they took care of it and they suffered some losses, I'm sure, but they're okay.

[00:27:05] And it's just like, then you see when they're dragging Joel, uh, behind the horse and off in the distances, um, Jackson's still smoking. And it's like, man, this was a rough day. By the way, for the listeners, uh, who are concerned, uh, animals and dogs are not infected with the cordyceps. So they will not be infected if they are attacking the infected. Well, it's good to know. I don't, I didn't really put any thought into that, but you're right. Yeah.

[00:27:35] No animal. They, they made a, they made a point of that, that the, that animals do not get infected. It's like in the walking dead too. Yeah. So, so yeah. And I was just going to say before it was such an intense episode, you said your wife was feeling anxious or whatever. Pure stress. Yeah. Stress. Yeah. And, uh, it was heavy weather and tumultuous, you know, stormy weather.

[00:28:02] I feel like sometimes show, I mean, I learned this probably back in junior high English class, the external reality can reflect the internal reality. Right. So the weather is complimentary to just this intensity of the emotion with everything around Joel and Abby and Ellie witnessing that. And then they just amplified it with all the zombie stuff too, which we didn't get in the game as much. So it was, yeah, it was something. And I, I'm glad they did that.

[00:28:29] Like this episode already would have had some good infected scenes because Abby was running from them. That wasn't the game and he saved her, but they added a lot that wasn't in the game. And I just think this is Joel's death episode and it's a big one. And I want Joel's death episode to be a really good one, not just a total drag. And so I think this helped in that regard. It's thought of as bad and sad, but also exciting as hell. And, you know, yeah. Oh, and it was, it was like Chekhov storm in the distance, right?

[00:28:58] Where Ellie and Jesse are going out. Do you think we have to worry about that? Nah, that'll stay in the mountains. And then the mountains came down to them. Yeah. You know, literally that was some, that was something Abby says when, you know, where, where'd you come from? When Dina says, you know, where'd you come from? Uh, she, her response is I'm from the mountain. Yeah. You know, what does that mean from the mountain? What, she just popped out like, well, well here's, I mean, here you, you mentioned, you know, the mountain coming down to them and here's a question I kind of pondered a little

[00:29:25] bit because this, as you said, this isn't something that is in the game. Uh, you know, the horde ambushing Jackson, it, the horde that Abby awakens, is that the same horde that attacks Jackson or is it a completely different? You, you see them merge at one point. And when, when they kind of pull back at one point when they're following Abby, you see that there's two different horde literally. And they kind of form a bit of a pincher thing and then they merge together.

[00:29:51] So I think it was, um, triggered in both ways. I think she triggers the first sort of movement there causing that, uh, infect a launch. I don't know what you'd call it. Uh, and then the opening. And then the opening of that pipe and seeing the, the roots again in there and kind of starting to move. It's what awakens the other. I think it awakens the other, all of it. I think it just kind of all conspires to come together to create this mega horde that then just kind of funnels.

[00:30:20] I think because they're, they know like, Hey, there's some activity over here because Abby had already gone. Abby and Joel had already gone up. So, uh, now they're just like in a swarm mode, hive mentality going towards where there's people. Yeah. And that makes you really realize like you sort of, or for me anyways, with anything apocalyptic with monsters like this, you, you think, would they really overtake humanity?

[00:30:45] But if you think anytime one of these mycelium is disturbed, they all just converge on it. That would accelerate it for sure. But I wondered if the idea was supposed to be that Abby inadvertently caused this whole siege of Jackson to not only does she kill Joel, but I think so. You know, that's, that's why I was posing that question because I was starting to wonder that is, well, we know that Abby is the one that causes the death of Joel, but is she

[00:31:13] also the one that kind of causes the almost or downfall of Jackson at the same time? Yeah. I think so. I think, I think her walking on what I'm likening to like a, do you know what a fairy ring is where like these mushrooms kind of pop up in a ring, uh, where there's a larger growth underneath. So I'm looking at all these infected sort of on the surface in a circle, almost like a fairy ring of dead. Uh, and she's walking around on it, disturbing that mycelium causing that sinking. Cause I think the sinking is just cause underneath. Oh yeah. Whoa.

[00:31:43] Absolutely. Yeah. Somebody's, but you said there was a second one. So that's why it makes me, I think there, and I think that's something that would have come anyway without. Right after I think you see the, the, the roots getting disturbed by that guy breaking the pipe. I think you do see the next one kind of moving around. And why the hell is a guy working on pipes in the middle of a storm? I didn't get that. I don't know. He's dedicated. Gathering wood to burn. Night gardener. Yeah.

[00:32:13] Maybe he's gathering like twigs and stuff to burn. Yeah. I don't know. Well, it seemed like he was clearing it. He was clearing the brush away from it. No, no, no. Look guys, Joel turned up the constructo meter dial, that big dial. He turned it up really high. So they were even going to work during the storm. Yeah. Um, let me look through if I had anything else about the battle here. I just, the winteriness of the episode in general was gorgeous. Those snowy vistas.

[00:32:41] Did the walking dead ever get that? Uh, yeah. Did they ever get the wintry thing? Yes. Oh, they did. Okay, good. That was always missed for years. And, and, you know, they said during the making of two, they filmed during an actual blizzard. Oh, did they? Oh, yes. In Whistler. Yes. That's amazing. Storm clouds over the mountains in the distance. The big, beautiful cabin added a lot to it with a big floor to ceiling window. Even the sounds, the harsh winds and everything.

[00:33:07] The scene at the wall, you guys talked about with the big, I guess, gasoline barrels rolling down. I just like the little detail that those slides curved up at the end. So they would kind of bounce up and land away from the wall. Yep. That was great. So whose turn is it? I think it's Ben. Whose turn is it? Ben's turn. I think it's mine, but I really don't have anything else other than the elephant in the room.

[00:33:34] So without going into too much game talk, I'm not going to mention any game talk, but as everybody knows at this point from the three of us covering it, that we have, we have played this game. I'm in the middle of a playthrough now. I just recently played through Joel's death in the game. I remember the first time how much it shook me playing the game. I remember it shook me replaying it just a couple days ago.

[00:34:02] And I want to say the way they filmed this and the way everything played out, this hurt worse. I don't know how it was for you guys. This hurt my heart more than the game did because there's more to it. Mm-hmm. We see Ellie crawling to Joel afterwards and embracing him. That shook me. I didn't cry playing it in the game.

[00:34:31] I had tears in my eyes watching it. It hurt more. What about you, Eric? I don't know. More or less one or the other. I mean, they're both horrifying. I mean, like you said, I mean, the first time you played, it's truly a horrifying thing. I did find it disturbing. I mean, the way that she does it specifically with the stab through the neck, I found, ew. I don't know.

[00:34:58] It was, on one hand, I could say there was almost less, this was almost less violent than the game in some ways, but it felt worse with this. It reminded me, and I'm going to go back to, it kind of gave me the exact same feeling that a scene in the comic book of The Walking Dead, not the TV show, even though there was a parallel where the governor beheads a character, and I'm not going to say who because the comic book is different than the show.

[00:35:24] In the book, it gave me the same queasy feeling that that gave me, seeing that handle of the golf club go into his neck. It gave me an almost queasy feeling. And also seeing Joel make an attempt at that very end to try to get up for Ellie was rough, to say the least. Did not like it.

[00:35:44] I think they were saying in the making of thing at the end, or maybe I read it somewhere, that it kind of showed that he was with it enough to recognize her. I got that. And the last thing he saw was her. Yeah. Yeah. No, I got that. And it's, but it was, you know, I'm saying I didn't like it. I mean, actually, I loved it. I mean, that's the horrible thing about all of this when I say these things.

[00:36:09] And I'm sure there are listeners who recalled me in a couple episodes ago, and I've said this a million times, I really like Abby as a character. And people are probably trying to reconcile this with what they just saw last night. And, and, um, yeah, I'm a monster. That's all I'm sure. That's the answer. I, I, uh, I think I was more upset in the game only because it was the initial shock, you know?

[00:36:35] And I actually heard that Joel died the day before I started playing the game. Damn it. And so, but I was still kind of in denial, like, ah, it can't be true. Or, you know, and then when it happened, it was just so fucked up and gruesome that it was just like, fuck, man, I like this character. I don't want this to happen, you know?

[00:36:56] Um, but, um, Neil Druckmann said in the back matter, some of the inspiration for the second game was how do we put the player in that state of righteousness or hate or whatever label you want to put on it. And the decision felt very clear to me. We have to kill someone we really care about. So he wants us hating Abby right now.

[00:37:19] I mean, this, this is, and, and, and, you know, this absolutely is paramount to this story going forward. I mean, like, like we've been talking about the whole time. I mean, without this incident happening, this cycle doesn't get started. So, you know, it's still the, the match that let lights the fire for Ellie. Now it's her turn to go on her revenge. Uh, I'm guessing, I mean, she says, I'm going to kill you all. Yes.

[00:37:49] Yes. Um, I, I think one of the other reasons why this one shook me a little bit more too than playing the game is because Eric, you kind of mentioned it with the broken golf club handle where he pierces him into his neck. Um, that is an element of this that is not in the game. And that is more final than what we are left with in the game. That's why they did it. Yeah.

[00:38:14] Cause when I, what I was thinking, I was trying to imagine what people who never played the game didn't know, managed to avoid spoilers watching this. Because everybody knows Abby wants to kill Joel, but you're like, yeah, this, she's not going to be able to do that. TV viewers knew more going in. Yeah. But I'm sure that most people, I would guess most people were like, no way. And then when she blew out his legs with the gun, I, I bet you people were shocked by that.

[00:38:43] Like, Oh my God, she actually did some damage here. You're not used to seeing that. Even, I don't know, man, even with shows like game of Thrones or, or, uh, walking dead, the last of us is different because it's two characters and we just lost one. You know, it's not an ensemble show really. I mean, it's becoming more of that now, but that's not what we're used to. It was a buddy thing, a road trip show. And if game of Thrones is like the Ned Stark and Arya show, the Ned and Arya show, then it would have been a really big deal to have Ned Stark.

[00:39:13] Yeah. So, so, but still, I, I would bet that even when that happened, people were like, he, he's got to get out of it. You know, he can get out of this. And then she starts beating on him and everything. And he can't even get up. And Ellie's yelling at him to get up. And, uh, then when she stabbed him like that, that's it. Right. And then just to make sure we know for damn sure they show that him, them dragging the body off at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:42] There's, there's no, there's no dumpster appearing. Nope. Nope. We will spoil that. Sorry guys. It's real, but watch fantastic four. Anything else about that? About the, the thing? Not, not really on my end. That was just kind of like my biggest point about it was just how much it impacted me more actually viewing it than playing it.

[00:40:13] There's one thing I got a real sense of, uh, leading up to that scene. When, when in Jackson, they were like, you know, they haven't heard from, uh, uh, Joel and Dina. Right. They're like, Oh, you haven't heard from them. Haven't heard from them. And then Abby or Ellie and Jesse hear that. And they go rushing out. Uh, you know, Jesse says this and that. She's like, you do the same Jesse. And they take off. I'm like, Oh my God, this is empire strikes back. This had such an empire strikes back feeling. Right. Where Luke hasn't checked in.

[00:40:43] Uh, uh, what about the Southgate? No, he hasn't. They're on cloth right now. It very much felt like that. Yeah. Calling all the patrols. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Han and, and the, the, his tauntaun, they're going to go out. I'll see you in hell. And he goes out there. And, but in this story, the wampa who is Abby, uh, takes Luke and takes, uh, you know, Luke over to who's real Joel over to his cave. And the wampa says, you know, my dad was a cook on the death star. You motherfucker.

[00:41:13] And I want to make this hurt. And then he eats Luke and Han shows up and it's really sad because Luke is dead and he's got to drag him on his body with a tauntaun. So a re-imagined empire strikes back. That's even sad. That would not have been as good. I wouldn't have. I don't like it. The wampa gets away. I'm just saying. Every movie, every movie in the new trilogy would have been totally different. The wampa was right. No.

[00:41:40] And Eric, you made me kind of think of this too, is that there's another moment that kind of leads up to this whole, um, this whole event that happens too, is that moment with Ellie and Jesse, when Jesse's confronting Ellie on what is going on between you and Joel. And she's like, we, we might be having our issues, but I'm still me. Joel is still Joel. We're still us. Nothing will change that. Well, we find out by the end of the episode. That's not true. Yeah. There is something that can change that. Yep.

[00:42:10] And she left a lot hanging with Jesse too. When, when he said, you guys clear the air or something to that. It's kind of reminds me of, um, Rick and Lori in the walking dead. There were, there was unfinished stuff between them, you know, trouble in the marriage. And it was, you know, trouble with this father daughter relationship here. And that's what makes it even more frustrating and sad for Ellie.

[00:42:37] All I can think of though, is the crying Rick meme and all the jokes around that. And Carl, Carl, you know, there's crying. Before we leave the whole Abby killing Joel thing, go through a few of the details. Uh, they injected Dina with something to put her to sleep. Some kind of there. That's what I thought it was too. What is it? That's my guess is profanol. Uh, put you under for colonoscopy or propofol. Okay. Is it that fast?

[00:43:07] Yeah. Yeah. Propofol. Okay. Uh, then, uh, he says they look like fireflies. They don't look like Raiders. And she says, have you heard there are no more fireflies? They're all gone, which maybe he wiped out most of the fireflies there, you know, and the rest were just like, well, we can't be fireflies anymore. Cause we're, we're just like the peons. Yeah. That's, I think that's the idea. It took out. I mean, Joel took out high command by killing Marlene and the doctor and all that.

[00:43:37] So yeah. Yeah. Abby says Joel's in his sixties. So the last of us wiki says he was born in 1967. Now we're in 2029. So he would be 62. So then it makes more sense why they aged Pedro Pascal points out. But he is handsome. Yeah. Yeah. You are kind of handsome. Um, the way she did it, she shot his legs out from under him, made Mel tourniquet his

[00:44:03] leg so he wouldn't bleed out and, you know, die or go unconscious before she had her chance to really torture him. Looks over at the golf clubs. Like she's just now getting the idea. Um, and then I loved when she said, you know, it's funny. I've waited so long. And he goes, ah, just shut the fuck up and do it already. I love that. Cause she'd already been speechifying a little bit, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think this is almost worse than the Negan because she tortures him first.

[00:44:32] You know, you stupid old man, you don't get to rush, rush this wax him in the legs, punching him in the face repeatedly. Like it's, it's bad. And then Ellie arrives, cuts Manny. They restrain her. Manny wants to kill her, but Owen holds him back. And then the scene of Joel and Ellie just lying across from each other as she screams for him to fucking get up. And that was, that was so hard. Yeah.

[00:45:01] That's, that's, that's the part I really don't like. I mean, the violence is one thing, but the, the, the, the, the amazing job that she did portraying the pure utter grief and agony of being in that position and that helpless. Yeah. And that's just going to stick with her. Like that's a core wound. Yeah. Abby made a point of that. I think, I mean, I think it was stupendous acting on all three other parts.

[00:45:25] I mean, I think actually between, you know, between Bella, Pedro and Caitlin, I think Pedro had the easiest job. Oh, he just had to lie there. Yeah. He just had to lie there and be in pain. I mean, no, there's truth to that. He literally, he had to lie there and be in pain. I'm sure he was feeling a lot. I bet though. Pedro Pascal. No, I'll say the one thing he really did nail in this.

[00:45:46] I mean, other than the being in pain and all that good stuff, but was the, the, every time he would turn to Jackson on fire and that desperation that you can, you can feel the desperation that he wanted to get back to help everybody. Um, you know, he knew he had to get back. And the only thing that convinced him otherwise was the idea of more people with weapons. That's it. But we, I just appreciate that level of what you got that sense from Joel. He really wanted to go back. So to Dina. Yep. Yep.

[00:46:17] And he, out of the goodness of his heart, I guess. Right. That's why he went with Abby or maybe he thought it was smarter to go back and get the blame. I thought the idea of more, of more people and more guns, I think is a good idea. I think it, I think it was that in the combination of also protecting Dina. Like she was cold. Yeah. She needed it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and by the way, when, uh, I think it was Mel was doing something to warm her up Dina and she starts coming to her senses.

[00:46:46] And she's like, who are you people? She notices a WLF patch with the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:20] It's all just very, uh, tragic, you know? And like I said, him dying when things are unresolved between them, it's going to, all that's just going to fuel the rest of this series. Pretty much. Yep. So sad. I, uh, one thing I wanted to go back to from earlier in the episode with Seth and his, uh, steak sandwiches, man, those have got to be good.

[00:47:47] I know, you got, you, you know, steak is like hard to come by in this world. Right. So the, to Ellie is definitely pretty not interested in, in his sandwiches, but for some reason I was like, Oh, that sounds so good right now. I felt like that in the game too. I was like, I did too. Grab that and eat it. Yeah. How, why are you turning them away? What about that scene though?

[00:48:14] I, I thought it was, uh, again, it came piggybacking right off of the, the Tommy giving his speechifying thing again, showing us Maria being, uh, doing her best to be a very effective leader, trying to bridge this problem in the community to make sure it doesn't go on and fester. Being the peacekeeper, as you mentioned, being the peacekeeper. And I think having Seth even acknowledged that not only was it something I should have never said, it's not even something I ever should have thought.

[00:48:40] Um, you know, whether it's a sincere apology or not, I'm going to go ahead and believe that it was. And I appreciated the fact that they included it. Yeah. I mean, to me, he looked genuinely ashamed and sincere and, uh, Ellie wasn't having any of it. And my first thought was, I, I believe in giving second chances, not necessarily third, but second.

[00:49:06] But also if I was dancing with my girlfriend and I was a woman, or if I had, if I was gay dancing with my boyfriend and someone came out and called me a slur like that, it might take me a while to get past it. And I'm, I'm, I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm pretty sure that probably more than anything, Ellie just wanted the whole thing to just go away. Don't put the attention on me. Get it off. Just whatever. Just go away. I don't want to deal with you.

[00:49:35] It seems so sincere, but when I really thought about it, I'm like, yeah, give it some time. It's only been a few hours. She just went to sleep and then woke up, but you know. Well, and I even love in that moment too, how Ellie was kind of like, yeah, it's okay to be sorry for things I'm sure you've never thought of before. Yeah. Like flat out calling him out. Like this is the way you've always been. Good answer though. He's like, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. He was basically like, you're not wrong. Yeah. And when they walked away, when, when Jesse and Ellie walk away, you can see Maria kind of turn to him.

[00:50:05] And be like, ah, you know, and he puts his head down. Like I tried, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. So I do want to go through just my thoughts on what I think about whether Abby was right to do this. And like I said, I think we've had this talk on the podcast a few times already, but it was behind a spoiler warning. So now we can do it without that.

[00:50:33] Um, and I don't think she was, I think Abby's father was about to kill Ellie without her consent. And that's murder. And in his eyes, it was for the greater good. But Joel is pretty much her father. And I mean, he tried to walk away from Ellie at one point, but she chose him and now they were together. So now he's going to protect her. And I don't blame him for that. And the firefly should have asked.

[00:51:00] And Marlene definitely shouldn't have told Joel what they were about to do. But, um, just thinking about whether Abby knows exactly what, why Joel did that. I think she kind of does. Cause I mean, she says, um, you know, the nurses said you barely even looked at him when you shot him and then you just walked right past the body. So she talked to the two nurses that were there. And in episode one, Abby said, I heard rumors.

[00:51:26] It was some kid he took that was supposedly, and then Mel interrupts and says that wasn't true, but she knows that he took a kid. So I don't know if she knows that her father was going to kill that kid, but it seems like she could put two and two together, right? If a guy's going in there, blasting his way through to get the kid. Yeah. I don't know. Well, I, I think the bigger lesson here should have been learned by Joel and that he, he left the nurses alive. No loose ends.

[00:51:55] No, that's not right. Also, Joel didn't make her father suffer like she's making him suffer. So that's kind of fucked up. Um, but, and Joel also didn't make Abby watch the way Abby is making Ellie watch. Yeah. Yeah. It's just fucked up. But then on the other hand, sort of, um, Abby said to Joel, do you know how many people you killed that day? 18 soldiers and one doctor, an unarmed doctor you shot in the head. And I was like, Oh, I never thought about that. I said the same thing. Yeah.

[00:52:25] I'm like, but I just was like, Oh shoot, dude, maybe Joel didn't need to kill that guy. So I had to go through and look. And, uh, after killing all those soldiers, Joel enters the operating room. There's a doctor, a couple of nurses and Ellie on the table, unconscious hooked up to this IV and electrodes to monitor vitals. And Joel says, unhook her. And the doctor's like, how did you get in here? I said, unhook her. And then the doctor picks up a scalpel. I won't let you take her. So then Joel just shoots him in the head.

[00:52:54] And, you know, honestly, I think Joel probably could have just knocked that thing out of his hand. But, um, so it's not, yeah, he just got killing a bunch of people. But really, Eric, is that like, okay to kill one more just for the hell of it? I mean, I, I, I just think that means it's not quite as black and white in my head as I had it before, but I still am on Joel's side here.

[00:53:17] And I don't think it's fair of Abby to just think that Joel's this monster who killed her father when her father was about to kill Joel's daughter, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. I think we talked about this last season, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, one of the nurses that was in that scene was also somebody from, was that? Laura Bailey. Laura Bailey is one of the nurses and she is the voice actor for, voice actor for Abby. I thought it was Abby. Okay.

[00:53:47] So, yeah, my guess is maybe we'll see a flashback of that exchange. I maybe not, but yeah, I would like to see Laura Bailey come back anywhere in this. I think it would be fantastic. We didn't really get to see her in the other one. She just goes, oh my God. I think. And then it goes, turn around. Yeah. Um, Abby at one point here tells Joel, you know, I have this code where I don't kill people that can't defend themselves, but I'm going to kill you because it doesn't matter if you have a code like me or you're a lawless piece of shit like you.

[00:54:14] There are just some things everyone agrees are just fucking wrong.

[00:54:47] And I'm just like, that's where things go wrong. And then immediately go against the code. Yeah. But it's the way it works. It's what the show is doing is trying to get us in that place where we feel that way towards Abby. And it did a good job with me, but I will be interested to see if I feel differently as the show goes along. I I'm open to it. I think the show could have a different impact on me than the game did. You never know, right? You don't know how they're going to do it.

[00:55:14] I mean, look, the, the, the fireflies, they had their ideology that they were going with, you know, the Fedra even had theirs for what it's worth. Um, Abby and her code with, uh, again, still a firefly and their new group. Now, um, Joel definitely has his code as well. It's, it's, it's my take on the whole thing, whether or not Abby is justified. It was like, no, they're, they're all wrong. And what they, Joel was wrong in what he did. Abby is wrong in what she did.

[00:55:42] But for both of them, I understand. What should Joel have done? Oh, I don't, I'm not saying I wouldn't have done anything different. What would be the right thing to do? Oh, I don't know. The right thing would, I don't know. I'm just saying, um, I guess not kill 19 people. But what, but what I'm getting at is saying that I understand no matter what. I mean, I, I, but is there just no right thing to do? I don't think there is a right thing. Yeah. I don't think there's a right answer.

[00:56:12] I mean, Abby went way out of her way to kill this guy. Joel at least didn't go way out. Well, no, he did. He went from Boston all the way to Utah. Didn't intend to kill all those people, but that was the end result. Abby did in fact intend to kill this one person. So in a way she stuck to her code in that way. Uh, she only killed one person that we know of so far. Yeah, that's true. Um, so I don't know. I mean, I think it's, it's, we keep going back to this, the cycle of violence.

[00:56:41] Well, the cycle of violence starts with one thing though. That's the thing. And then the second person is the one that chooses to continue it. And then you can argue whether that's okay or the third, but the first one is always wrong. But the first one's Joel and we're all sitting here arguing about whether, you know, first one isn't Joel. It's the doctor trying to kill Ella. Oh yeah. True. True. That's what I think. Could it have been Marlene trying to send her there?

[00:57:09] I mean, you know, Marlene knew. So was that the first, was that the first thing? But it's same effectively the same thing. Yeah. Just trying to kill Ellie. Yeah. So Eric, do you have any other points? Okay. No, I'm good. Let me go through my last one. So through the Valley is the, the name of the episode, which is, well, it's two things. One, it's a reference to a passage in the Bible, Psalm 23, which is about King David's trust in God as a shepherd and protector, even in the face of like mortal danger.

[00:57:39] The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. Yay. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for that art with me. So that sounds kind of hopeful. And I think it's maybe more about Ellie than Joel, like about starting this new dark period in her life where she'll be tested and suffering, but maybe hence there's a possibility of hope or something like that. That was Ashley Johnson singing that at the end, by the way. Yeah. It was the song through the Valley.

[00:58:07] Uh, I guess Sean James is the original singer, but, um, Ashley Johnson, who played Ellie's mom in season one and the original voice of Ellie in the game. I recognized her voice right away when that song came on. I was like, yeah, that's Ellie. But the lyrics of that song are darker than the Bible verse. It says, I walked through the valley of the shadow of death and I fear no evil because I'm blind to it all.

[00:58:33] And my mind and my gun, they comfort me because I know I'll kill my enemies when they come. I walk beside the still waters and they restore my soul, but I can't walk on the path of the right because I'm wrong. So it's a little darker and maybe becoming more resigned and hardened to the world. You know, that kind of feeling. I like it. Um, I did want to talk a little bit about Ellie and Jesse.

[00:58:57] I just thought it was really funny when he pretended to be mad about the kiss and got her all flustered and I'm just messing with you. And then he maybe is a little mad. Well, it was kind of fucked up what you did. Yeah. Uh, then, um, oh, you know, her little speech about, you know, my shit with Joel is complicated. I know that from the outside, it probably looks really bad. It has been really bad, but I'm still me.

[00:59:25] He's still Joel and nothing's ever going to change that ever. I felt like that was a little bit forced because the whole thing last week was she just seemed like didn't want to talk to Joel. One word answers. Didn't want to have anything to do with them. And it seemed like a weird left turn for her to suddenly be saying this. And it felt more like the writers going like, look, she really does still care for him. We want you to know that so that it'll make more sense why she's so upset when he dies. And I don't think we even needed that.

[00:59:53] And I mean, we know what parent child relationships are like. So I didn't believe it. I took it more as if I took that more as if Ellie was even confused as to she didn't even know how she felt about everything that was going on with her and Joel. She wanted people to know that she, that she, her and Joel were fine. I think in her mind, she hated and loved Joel at the same time.

[01:00:17] I think, I think that in a way that line kind of just showed the conflict that Ellie was going through as well when it came to her and Joel. It's just that thing that I complain about in shows. Fear the walking dead does it all the time where you suddenly have a character explaining their own psychology and people don't tend to do that. It's usually subtext and people aren't even totally aware of it. So it was like the writers want the viewers to know this. That's what it felt.

[01:00:46] I explain my own psychology to myself. What is it? Let me hear. No, it's usually done in a mirror in the bathroom. Hold on. I'm going to interrupt you because of my insecurities. Oh, that would be an interesting podcast. I feel the need to maintain control, so I won't let you interrupt. What else? Well, so then they go out on patrol. The weather gets bad. Jesse and Ellie and they need to shelter in place.

[01:01:16] He takes her to Eugene's cannabis den. Eugene's. Yeah. And 7-Eleven was weed hanging all over. Am I imagining things or hallucinating? Then she finds out he was a firefly early on. So I think it was a listener suggested last week that Eugene somehow signals, signaled Abby's people on how to find Joel. Maybe. I wonder if that happened and if we're going to find out about it since he was a firefly. Okay.

[01:01:45] But Jesse says that was a raw deal. Joel having to put him down like that. What are you going to do? Couldn't be saved. So that just reintroduces that mystery of what happened with Eugene. They keep, you got to think they're going to follow up on it because they keep teasing us with it. But I don't understand what it could be because either he was infected and Joel had to kill him and that's fine. Or what? Like. Or they found out he was talking to. Yeah. He was. He was technically a spy. But then they wouldn't say that he had to do it. I wouldn't think.

[01:02:15] I guess. I don't. I don't think so either. I think he was infected. But who knows? He probably just smoked something laced with something and went crazy. And then just. Cordyceps. Laced with cordyceps. There you go. Yeah. Just for people who like. Yeah. He forgot it was the wrong gas mask. Yeah. I want that mask. That bomb gas mask is so great. And then just in case anybody didn't catch the detail when they hear the message on the radio,

[01:02:44] Ellie and Jesse, that they haven't heard from Joel and Dina and they're near the copper mine, then Jesse says the route to the mine takes two paths around it. So that's why they split up and why he wasn't with her. Oh, OK. I'll see. That makes sense. Yeah. So that's it. I had a few notes. Do either one of you guys have any notes? The only other thing I have not related to the show is, you know, anytime you get these

[01:03:11] characters that do something like this, like kill off a major character that is so loved by someone, you always get kind of concerned for that actor because. Oh, yeah. The Internet can turn against them and death threats or whatever. It's like you take this way too seriously. Yes. But I love that they waited until today. Caitlin Dever and Pedro Pascal posted both posted to their Instagram pictures of them kind of like shoulder to shoulder and head to head and like the cutesy like, hey, look,

[01:03:40] we're actually friends. That's nice. Picture. Yeah. Good PR. They have good publicists. Yeah. And I think in the behind the scenes video, didn't they say like, oh, wow, it's like when you play these scenes, even though we're antagonists, it really bonded us together or something like that. Yeah. I think Caitlin was the one that says like they got bonded by the scene or bonded by the scene.

[01:04:06] And if you listen while she's punching him in the face, she's just like, I love you so much. Why are you making me do this? I love you so much. Well, it's like it was we before this episode aired, I posted that picture that HBO Max had apparently put the last of us next to PGA golf. Yeah. Streaming service. I was going to start this.

[01:04:35] So you got to wait until we get a little bit warmed up before you come in with stuff like that. Exactly. I chose against it. You made the right choice. So do you have any notes, Eric? No, not at all. Except I did. You know, I made my Star Wars analogy earlier and then I'm looking at the three of us and the three of us are wearing T-shirts corresponding to each movie, each Luke Skywalker outfit. I'm a new hope. Jason, your empire. And Ben, you got Return of the Jedi over there. Yeah, it's true. Unplanned. Totally. Totally.

[01:05:05] Okay. I had a few notes. I noticed that Owen is distractingly way taller than Abby. Did you guys notice that? She's like, no, I didn't. But this. Oh, that's funny. Okay. Uh, the, I thought Abby, I don't, did either of you watch the white Lotus? Yes. I have not. No. Abby kind of reminded me of Rick from the white Lotus. Just can't let it go. I can see that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:32] Uh, Bella Ramsey said when she read the script for this and got to the moment where Joel dies, she cried and it was the first time she's ever cried while reading something in her life. So that was kind of cool. Yeah. I think she said that on the making of after the episode too. Yeah. Um, I was looking at the wiki, uh, cause you might wonder why they killed off Joel so early in the season. We speculated they might wait and do it later.

[01:05:59] And the wiki says the writer spent a long time considering which episode in which to place Joel's death. They briefly considered moving it later, but decided against it. Mason felt placing it in the season. Second episode was appropriate after witnessing Joel and Ellie's strained relationship in the first. Neil Druckmann thought it should occur early as it's where the season story earnestly begins and leaving it later made him feel like they quote, we're kind of dragging their feet.

[01:06:26] Mason also considered the real implications of leaving it for later understanding that viewers would consistently be aware that it has not yet occurred. And he didn't want to quote, feel like we're toying with everybody. So hearing all that, it makes sense, right? Oh, absolutely. I think they made the, that's the best choice they could have made. I think if they had dragged it out any longer, people would be screaming filler, filler, filler, uh, get to the point. I hate her, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I think definitely they got to the, I hate her much faster. Yeah.

[01:06:56] I was the same way as well. Like I know when we were talking about last season, what could happen this season? I know I was somebody who advocated like, oh, make it the mid season finale or the season finale going into the next season. So that you end with something huge. And after seeing episode one and getting a feel for the pacing that they were going with and then going right into this one and the way everything progressed, everything progressed forward so much quicker. I was like, you know what? I'm like, I take back when I like, this was the proper, this was the right choice. Felt good. Yeah.

[01:07:26] And, and as I said before, I think with season one, you did have to start off with a bit of a slower pace at the beginning to set up this world and to establish who everybody is and where we are and yada, yada. You didn't have to do that as much this time. Right. And even with Abby and her crew, they have the benefit of being able to be established with just a few moments in Salt Lake with the crosses like, okay, we know who these people are as well. So this benefits, you know, that sophomore year coming off of it.

[01:07:52] I think just that we can kind of boom, kick right into it, not have to waste a lot of time and get to the meat of the season, which is now what's going to happen after this. Yeah. And to everyone who thought episode one was too slow, eat your words. This was a really kind of, in a lot of ways, a straightforward action episode. And, you know, the last of us likes to mix it up, you know, the whole, um, Frank and Bill thing.

[01:08:17] And I'm sure we'll get stuff like that this season, but I like shows that vary it and they don't always have to be, have a lot of subtext. There really wasn't a lot of subtext in this. It was just action and hate and sorrow. Even season one, you know, the first two episodes start with this flashback that have almost nothing. Well, it has something to do with the direct, the story, but not directly. Right. Yeah.

[01:08:40] First you had the talk show for the sixties and then you had the Indonesia thing with the flower people or the woman, you know, and then we, I remember thinking like, well, this is what we're going to come to expect. Right. There's going to be a flashback every episode. And then we get the Frank and Bill episode next, which was a total departure. And then nothing like that ever happens again. Right. So this season we're getting that as well. It's, it's, it's like you said, they're mixing it up. They're not keeping it just one thing or another. Get a little sprinkle of flashback over here, a little, little dash of portents over here.

[01:09:10] It's going well. Yeah. It feels just like they're really on point as far as feeling out. What do we need here? Let's put that in. Not what's our pattern or what's our format or almost like Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann might have a clue as to what they're doing. Just a thought. I might be, I'm probably wrong, but I'm just going to hunch. We'll have to wait and see, but yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm close to convinced of that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:38] So before we break two things, like as with last week, we're going to do a second podcast later in the week with listener feedback and news. Lucy's going to be on that one. If you're into this podcast and you haven't checked those out, I do recommend it. There's lots of interesting takes and new information that comes out. We're not even doing news in the main podcast anymore. So you'll hear maybe some interview bits that are interesting and stuff like that. Plus reactions from listeners to this episode, which I think is going to be really interesting. I'm looking forward to that.

[01:10:09] That'll, that'll be in your feed in a few days. And then, um, in this episode you're listening to right now, we're about to go into a game talk segment and we're going to do one where it won't be spoilery for future developments. It'll just be about things that have happened so far and how they compare to the game. Is that fair to say, Ben? Yeah. Yeah. So if you haven't played the game, but you're just interested in how it compares, don't worry about spoilers. You can listen to it.

[01:11:21] All right. We're back. We're going to talk about the game. As I said, it'll just be about stuff that's happened up until now in the game. I just have a few notes about some things that were different and similar. Ben, I know you had some stuff to say. Why don't you start? Yeah. I mean, we kind of talked a little bit about the, um, you know, we, we talk about the fall of Jackson, which is something that is not in the game, but I like how they kind of took certain elements of things that we experienced in the game.

[01:11:48] Cause like I said, I literally just played through this part of the game a couple of days within like the past two days. Um, and I, I love the fact that when Joel for, for starters, it's Joel and Tommy, not Joel and Dina in the game that rescue Abby and take her and go back to the, um, uh, go back to the resort. And, uh, there's no, there's no need to want to go back to Jackson because everything that's

[01:12:16] happened in Jackson is fine in the game. Um, and, but what I love is like when the, the, the infected are heading towards the gate, it's Abby's people that are savior ammo and start throwing Molotov cocktails at it. And I'm like, well, we don't get that. Oh, that was so cool too. Instead we get barrels full of gasoline. I guess that's pretty damn cool. I mean, that was freaking bad-ass. I wish I would have, uh, emphasized it more during the main part, just watching them blow apart like that. It was so cool. Oh, that was so cool. It really was.

[01:12:46] And it was, I was wondering like, what are they doing with these? You know, I was kind of wondering, are they going to be pouring hot oil on them? Yeah. Right. I was really thinking medieval seeds. Right. So I was wondering what they were going to do. And then when they just started dropping them, I'm like, are they just squishing them? What are they doing with this? Until they start blowing the holes in it. It's like, oh. These are Molotovs on steroids basically. Yeah. By, by doing that, which I thought was great. I thought like, okay, we're not getting it at the, um, in the mountains. We're getting it down to Jackson instead.

[01:13:16] And it's just, it's ramped up to the umpteenth power, uh, which I thought was, was really cool. Well, and it, and it makes a lot of sense now as to how they in the, the lodge are able to do what they're doing kind of without any interference is that everybody else is focused on something else. No interruption because, you know, nobody knows they're there. And so, yeah, a little bit different there. I mean, not that it was, it was not an issue in the last one. It was pretty close.

[01:13:46] I mean, the, the biggest change for me with all that, aside from the huge zombies attacking, I mean, infected attacking Jackson was that they, the pairs were different and it was, um, Joel and Dina instead of Joel and Tommy at the lodge with Abby and her friends, but also Ellie and Jesse instead of Ellie and Dina. And I read that they did that because they wanted to keep Ellie and Dina's relationship

[01:14:15] ambiguous for now. I'm assuming to let it develop over a longer time. So they had, you know, Ellie and Jesse instead, and then have Dina with Joel just to have her be more connected to Joel's death since she was there. Yeah. I mean, I was wondering about how much that's going to, uh, aid in, uh, in, um, helping motivate both Dina and Jesse. Right.

[01:14:41] Uh, in all of this, you know, um, was she, Dina was conscious right on the way back. I didn't. Yeah. I don't think they just propped her on the horse. She was conscious on the way. I mean, yeah. She'll get to Bernice. Yeah. Cause she was on her own horse. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. But let me say Eugene's cannabis den. It was such a wonderful scene in the game. It was Ellie and Dina, the show version, in my opinion. Well, it wasn't meant to have as big of an impact as the game.

[01:15:10] It was more incidental and not like a key scene, but it did feel a bit like a dud to me in comparison because in the game it was the two of them, this intimate, romantic, funny, quiet scene. It's in a basement. So it feels like they're in their own world and they really deepen their relationship. Ellie tells Dina she's immune, but Dina thinks she's joking around and then they start getting hot and heavy and Jesse walks in on them. And, and even the weed gas mask thing I thought was funnier in the game. Dina's like, so smart.

[01:15:40] It was definitely a different feel. I mean, as to why they changed it, I don't know. It's. Well, because Ellie and, and Dina weren't together and I don't think they want to take them to that level yet in the show. That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's. That's all. And the, the weed den feels bigger in the game too, because it's in, it's in the game. It's in the basement of a library. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and because it's, it's part of the whole sort of a more throwaway thing here, but it

[01:16:08] also invoked Eugene again, which he's a bigger character. So. Oh yeah. No, Eugene's operation was, was mammoth in the game. It was, it was very impressive. I mean, this, this looked danky, but I mean, you know, it was a seven 11 version of Eugene's real literally, you know, it was, it was the dollar store version. At least we got the gas mask though. So that was good. What else? What else was different?

[01:16:36] I mean, yeah, the, the pairings and again, trying not to think about anything. Oh, um, Manny does say fucking pendejo, but he does not spit on Joel. Yeah. I did. I did pick up on that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you also can't see Jackson from the lodge in the game either. Like they could. True. No. Yeah. They had to scramble to even get a view of, of Jackson. Oh, I didn't remember that. I, I, yeah, that's right. You had to scramble a lot. Now I remember. Yeah.

[01:17:03] Um, but, uh, I think, yeah, they really wanted us to feel, and this is in the game too, but that Abby's friends don't really want to be there. They want to keep making sure they're not going to harm anyone else. And I think, and I wish we would have said this in the main part too, but that part of that was to make it believable that they wouldn't just kill Ellie and Dina. And I believe that, you know? Yeah. No, I agree with that.

[01:17:29] I think that was, I think it's kind of key to, to show that as how uncomfortable they were with the whole thing. Right. Right. Right. Right. And Abby was definitely very comfortable. She got like, you know, it seems like once she, once she locked in with what she was going to do, there was no hesitation, not a single moment of hesitation. She almost would have killed one of her friends if they got too much in the way. Maybe not. I'm pretty sure she probably would have. Yeah.

[01:17:54] Well, but I mean, you know, since we're talking about it, the differences in Joel's death and the, by the means that it happens in the game compared to the show. First off, as we mentioned during the TV talk, the, the handle of the golf club is completely different and adds a final, it gives a final nail to it in the game. Stabbing him. Yeah. Yeah. And in the game, you know, she, you're kind of left uncertain for maybe a minute until

[01:18:22] I, you know, my, my recollection, I know you just played it, but my recollection is the golf club goes pretty deep into a skull and then you see a spurt of blood coming out of his head, like an arterial pump of, it's just a Nick. It's nothing. There's a final blow. Yeah. Right before, right before Abby or right before Ellie is kicked in the face and then knock and knocked out and it goes to black. And the next thing is you see them waking up back in Jackson. Okay. Yeah.

[01:18:50] And with this one, like I said, and this was the reason why I said earlier on, like this one hurt a little more is because Ellie is awake the entire time and crawling to Joel is not in the game. Embracing him is not in the game. Seeing them take Joel back to Jackson is not in the game. Like these are all added elements that just enhance that scene so much that as I said, like it, this is why it hurt a little more.

[01:19:19] I kind of wish we got to see Dina come out of it. Cause there's nothing funnier than something coming out of sedatives and they're all like, Hey man. Right. I can imagine Dina way. What's going on? Joel. Get up. You know, in the game, Abby doesn't tell Joel why she's doing this. She shoots him in the legs. I think Nora knocks Tommy out. Cause it's Tommy, not Dina that's with him. And then, um, Abby says, Joel Miller.

[01:19:49] And he goes, who are you? And she goes, guess. And he goes, why don't you just say whatever speech you got rehearsed and get this over with. And you always had the impression, I think even more in the game, but in the show too, that there could be any number of people who want to kill Joel, probably for a good reason. Last season, he told Ellie he's killed innocent people. And when they were ambushed, he said, he's been on the other side of that. So, um, yeah. Well, in the, in the game,

[01:20:17] it's also not until this moment that we know who they're looking for because it's in the show. Yeah. In the show, she says Joel in the first episode in the game. It's not until they entered Tommy and Joel don't even introduce themselves until they're in the lodge. And when they hear him say, Joel, they all turn and look. And he's like, you pretend like, you know, know me. And Tommy said, Joel, Joel never says it. Tommy's the one who introduced it. That's right. My brother, Joel, you get the, I mean,

[01:20:47] I think you might suspect that they might be a danger to Joel, but you're not sure. But yeah, in here, I mean, we talked about this last week that when Joel saves Abby from, you know, he, she's, he saved her life and that's different in the show because we already know for sure she wants to kill him. So you're almost like, are you sure you want to do that, man? But in the game, you don't get that drama, but you, the trade off is it's such a big shock when she shoots him.

[01:21:15] It's a huge shock in the game when she just turns and blast them in the knee with a shotgun. Yeah. Powerful. So the lesson here is no good deed goes unpunished. Don't save people because they will turn around or kill everybody to make sure there's no loose. There you go. No, I would just ask them if they want to kill you first. And if they say no, then you can save them. Or just don't use your real name ever. Boy, in that case, my name is Mr. Blog again.

[01:21:46] Oh, just after Abby kills Joel, it's Ellie's perspective. You can hear the other characters are arguing the background, but you can't hear what they're saying. I like, we, we eliminated one of their, there's Jordan is one of Abby's crew. Who's not in the game or not in the show. I should say he was the one that gets his face sliced in the game. Oh, whereas here it's Manny that gets cut. Let's see the only one. I think so.

[01:22:14] I think that's the only one that they just got rid of. And he's in a fairly, you know, he's in one scene down the road in the game. That's relatively non, non consequential. Yeah. Oh, that, you know what? And that, sorry, going back to Joel's death real quick, get in game versus television to like Abby states that she wants the death to be slow. Yeah. But yet in the show, she has to finalize it. Whereas in the game, there is a final blow,

[01:22:44] but it feels like it's more suffering in the game. It feels like Joel suffers more in the game because you could still survive that final blow. You can still be alive and then die from your own. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you don't know in the game, you don't know how long that whole thing takes. Uh, in this one, you know, it definitely took less than an hour because that's how long they said Dino would wake up for. So, well, technically in the game, it can, it can go as long as you want it to.

[01:23:13] Cause while you're playing as Ellie in the lodge, you can hear, you can hear that. Well, no, no, that's true. You can hear Joel screaming as you're going through. I was just trying to find out about the propanol. That's all. Yeah. But if you, if you just happen to have Ellie sit there for like five hours, it's pretty much infinite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. there was another difference. I just remember one of the most minuscule dumb differences that honestly, both Maggie, my daughter and I noticed, which is like, Oh look, Ellie's going upstairs instead of down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:23:43] That's what Nico said. It's not in the basement. Yeah. Instead of hearing the cries from the basement, she's hearing the thuds of his head against the floor as she's pounding on his head. you know, didn't the room look the same though? Was there a big window downstairs? Right. It looked the same. Yeah. Same looking room, right? Yeah. I think it is the same looking room. Yeah. So it's just like, it's on a hill. So when you go downstairs, you're still in a, yeah. With a big window. Yeah. That's a nice place, man. Yeah, it is.

[01:24:11] Reminds me of Tahoe a little bit. All right. That is our show. Episode six 35. Thanks so much for listening. Everyone. We had a lot of fun on this podcast, but it was heavy. Oh, I think that was pretty much the only way we could help us get through it a little bit easier. It's kind of a tradition with this podcast. Yeah. I'd say, please, please come back to the show, our show.

[01:24:41] You know what? Please come back. You say that jokingly, but there's a lot of truth to that. Like this story really does get complex and continues to stay good. Even without Joel. Keep watching. Whether, like, don't be discouraged by this. The story is still good. It's still great. Absolutely. I'm glad you said that because when I played the game and I found out a day before that Joel died and I was kind of bummed,

[01:25:09] but hoping it was a false rumor and then it really happened. And I was like, fuck this game. And I like Joel. That's why I liked the first game. I played them for 30 hours or whatever, 15 hours. Um, but by the end of the second game, I was like, I think this might be my favorite video game of all time, or it's definitely up there in the top five list. And it's a lot because of the story. So it's a really good story. Yeah. And it's going to make you feel,

[01:25:36] and it's not going to always make you feel good to say. I mean, yeah, it's dark story. Yeah. Game of Thrones is really such a great app, uh, kind of comparison, just in the sense of like, look, bad shit's going to happen to people that you care about. And you're, you got to be in this for the story, not for don't latch on to anybody in particular, because it's about the story. It's about the whole arc of things. Uh, it is not just this one person's thing. Um, and even Game of Thrones,

[01:26:05] Pedro Pascal goes out in a horrible, horrible way that, uh, and we still kept watching. So, you know, that's Pedro's thing, I guess. I don't, I'm afraid for the Mandalorian. I think I, God, don't, don't go there. No, Grogu's force powers are going to get way out of control. He's going to crush his, his head like a canned, crush the helmet. I think Pedro even came out and said that like between Joel's death and Oberyn Martell's death,

[01:26:34] like he thinks Joel's death is more brutal. I don't know about that, but I don't know. It took longer. It took longer. I'd say that, but other than that, I don't, I don't know, man. All right. Well, next episode we'll have listener feedback for this week's episode of the last of us. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcast.com. And while you're there,

[01:27:01] please make sure to check out all of the other podcasts. Yeah. One of them that's coming soon is and or and or season two is coming April 20 something. Uh, there, I saw 94 rotten tomato reviews are in. It has a 98%. Yeah. Pretty damn good. And, uh, I still need to watch season one. It's it's wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. You haven't seen season one. So he doesn't like rogue one. I was not a big fan of rogue one. Um, I mean, no, no,

[01:27:31] I was going to say it anyway. I was not a big fan of rogue one, but my plan ultimately is that because I know this is going to be the last season of Andor is, and apparently it's supposed to lead right into rogue one is I'm going to wait for Andor season two to finish. And then I'm just going to binge season one, season two and give rogue one a rewatch to see if maybe I have a new appreciation. Okay. All right. Okay. So I'm bringing it up now, even though it's not out quite yet because, uh,

[01:27:59] Jonathan and James are back and they recorded a season one catch up episode that's in the star Wars TV cast feed right now. If you guys want to go listen to it. Nice. I was also going to mention to, uh, net. I'm hoping to sometime this week, uh, get in touch with somebody. I know who said they wanted to do it, do a recap for dead city season one. Oh, cool. Because dead city season two starts in two weeks. So, Holy shit. I can't, I didn't realize it was that soon. Yeah. Wow.

[01:28:28] Yeah. That'd be great. I could use that. I also want to mention this episode's made possible by Patreon supporters like Geneva chase, who've pledged their support at patrion.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you Geneva for making it possible for me to keep doing this. I appreciate it very much. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Megan O'Connell.