638: The Walking Dead: Dead City Catch-Up

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcast to go!

[00:00:38] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Ben. And I'm Alex. And this is The Cast of Us, Episode 638. And this episode, we are recapping The Walking Dead Dead City Season 1 and discussing the upcoming Season 2. I can't believe it came up. Like, I mean, I knew it was going to be running incongruent with The Last of Us, but it came quick.

[00:01:06] So I think it's... I agree with you emphatically. And I feel like there's just been so much prestige TV stacking on top of each other from Severance to The White Lotus to The Last of Us. Now, right back to Walking Dead. And you got Yellow Jackets in there. You got The Handmaid's Tale back in there. Like, there's so much good content out there that, you know, Idle Hands of the Devil's Playground, we haven't had a whole lot of nothing since The Rider Strike ended. Like, we've been barraged with content. It's been great, but also exhausting.

[00:01:34] Yeah, you're right. Like, it was a total dead zone during The Rider Strike. And then once The Rider Strike... Well, not once The Rider Strike ended, but within a couple months, like, within like five to six months of The Rider Strike ending, it's just been a flurry of just amazing... And not just streaming television, like, and premium channel television like Netflix or AMC or anything like that. Even network television has gotten so good lately.

[00:02:00] Oh, it absolutely has. I cut the cord ages ago, but thanks to the joys of, you know, the streaming services all having a parent company, like, I'm still able to watch Abbott Elementary as it's coming out. Like, those really good sitcoms or the dramas that are out there. Like, I know The Pit's on HBO, but The Pit is just everything to everyone right now. It's phenomenal. That is on my list to watch. I'm waiting for...

[00:02:26] It's gonna be a couple weeks, only because there's so many other shows that are still on, but a bunch of them are gonna be wrapping up within the next couple weeks. And then we're gonna go into kind of like that summer slump where we're in between... We're getting like a lot of the game shows and the reality shows that are gonna be coming out, kind of to fill those months. But also, if you're listening to our coverage of the cast, to The Last of Us, you've heard my voice already.

[00:02:53] I am pulling double duty starting now for the next five weeks, I believe. Four or five weeks. So if you get sick of my voice, I don't apologize for it. I brought it on myself and I'm gonna stick with it. But just because... Good for you, Ben. Good for you. Own that voice. Own that voice.

[00:03:17] But just because not everybody is watching Dead City, because let's be honest, Negan is a very polarizing character. I know people have said it. I don't see it, but okay, I guess. I'm kidding, folks. I get it. I know. I know people who did not give Dead City a chance because they just do not like the character of Negan. I understand that. I don't agree with it, but I understand that.

[00:03:43] I'm the same way. Look, he's a complex character, to say the least. And I feel like teaming him up or tying him with... And we'll get into more of this as we go into the Dead City season one recap. Pairing him up with Maggie not only made him more of a complex character, but it made Maggie more of a complex character.

[00:04:07] What it is doing... What Dead City's doing with Maggie Green-Ree is finally giving her character the complexity to cook. That they've dabbled with it, they've hinted at it, but they haven't really... Oh, man, I kind of want to get right into it. But this is finally a chance for her to shine. So I'm going to try and withhold myself a little bit so we can get into it. But yes, I love it.

[00:04:33] Okay. So, I mean, before we get into it, obviously, this is your first bit on any podcast, like a podcast. So I know you because you have joined me on my Wilhelm podcast a number of times already. You have since launched your own podcast because of that, which is doing really, really well. But I want Podcastica listeners to kind of know you for a little bit.

[00:04:56] So I thought maybe we'd spend a couple minutes just for you to introduce yourself and tell the Podcastica listeners a little bit about you so that they kind of welcome you in as we continue with this. Love it. I'm here for it. Thank you so much. Hey, guys, I'm Alex. I'm a cancer. No. So as Ben alluded to, I am one of two hosts of my own podcast, the Quit Chasing podcast, where we talk Philadelphia Phillies baseball. But really, we just talk a whole lot of pop culture and life. It's always a good time.

[00:05:26] I love television. I love movies. I love anything that gets me out of this dystopian world that we're currently living in. So any chance to detach from reality, I'm here for. I love to be here for like Ben alluded to. I've I've guessed it on the the revisited podcast talking about Ted Lasso. I'm excited for future endeavors with the good place. So I love to consume whatever's out there. I love to think of it critically.

[00:05:48] And when I first found the Podcastica family through the Walking Dead cast at the time, it was great because I found the I finally found other people like me that looked at television academically and really enjoyed breaking down the intent of the of the writers, the directors, the actors and actresses, the talent, and just looking at it as more than just story, but also all the pieces that go into the artistry that is making television.

[00:06:16] Hey, I you know what? That's a really good introduction of yourself like that's boom. I'm I don't want to say impressed because I've been impressed with you since the start, but I am. I don't know what to say. I hope the listeners take that in. That's that's more what I hope for it. You know, it's I was very anti podcast, to be honest, for the longest time. I don't know why. Maybe just because I'm a stubborn millennial that had no good reason.

[00:06:44] But I shoot it. And then the pandemic happened. I ran out of content, fake doctors, real friends with Zach Braff and Donald Faison took off and I started listening. I found Jason and it just boom. Here I am. And look at this year later. Yeah. I mean, you've I mean, you've unfairly credited me for your journey into becoming a podcaster yourself. I don't think I deserve that credit at all. I think eventually you would have found your way there regardless.

[00:07:14] But it's appreciated. And I'm super stoked that you have become a podcaster yourself. And now you're joining in this direct way, the podcasting family, which is kind of cool. It's only been a lifelong dream of mine for two years, but it's been a lifelong to help co-host one of these these shows. So I'm super excited to be here, like having my own show. Don't tell Danny it's awesome. I love it. It's the best. But this this is this is the major leagues right here.

[00:07:42] This right. This is why I started this journey. All right. Fair. Fair enough. Alex and I will not be the only two people that you hear across this journey, just like last year with season one. I am going to be bringing on some guest hosts. We are going to be bringing on some guest hosts as we continue on. Unlike season one, where we only had six episodes, we actually get eight episodes this year. So we're getting two extra episodes to talk about it. We've got five or six people lined up.

[00:08:08] I've already got people penciled in for different episodes as we go through some familiar voices from last year and some new ones. So I'm really excited about that. A couple of them I've never podcasted with before. So we'll see how that dynamic works, but I'm fully confident it's going to be dynamic. And that's really all that matters.

[00:08:29] Also, as I mentioned, because I am pulling double duty right now, starting now, dead city coverage will be running congruent with the last of us coverage. We're going to do feedback a little differently for the dead city coverage. Last of us right now has the new episodes that come out on Tuesday and then the feedback episodes happened last week. So we're not going to do a separate feedback episode for dead city.

[00:08:57] Instead, what we're going to do, and it's kind of going to affect the format of this podcast purely just for dead city, not for anything else. Is that next week we're going to talk about the season premiere of the of the show, and then you're going to send in your feedback. And we are going to start episode two. Recapping your feedback from episode one before we go into the discussion of episode two. I love that. That is so smart.

[00:09:27] Yeah. So we'll still get your feedback in. You'll have almost a week to get it in doing it this way, which gives you guys plenty of time to get your feedback in. And so, yeah. So next week we'll talk all about the season premiere. And then the following week we'll talk about the feedback from the season premiere and then go into our discussion of episode two.

[00:09:48] So if you have any questions or don't understand what we're talking about, just email us through podcast.com and we'll try and explain it a little bit better. And in case you're worried, yes, I am sad. I do not get a live steving this week. Oh, I can't wait. I know. I have a voicemail from Steve for this week. Oh, thank God. Okay. Send us a short like 20 second voicemail to kind of wish us luck. Oh, thank God that is music to my ears.

[00:10:18] If I don't hear Steve at least once a week, I get sad. So I will play that a little bit later once we go through our season one recap and our season two predictions. We'll play that towards the end. But it was it was really nice because Jason forwarded it to me. I was like, wait, we're already getting feedback for Dead City. And then I saw who it was from and I was like, yes. All right. The best. Steve is joining us even for the recap. I love it. What a gent. So but let's dive into the season one recap.

[00:10:47] You and I both just recently did rewatches of season one. And I want to kind of just for anybody who's kind of gearing up for season two like we are. I kind of want to just discuss maybe some of the key see the key players we need to know going into this next season. Some of the key moments that have happened storylines and things like that that are going to continue on into season two.

[00:11:11] And then even touch on some of our favorite moments from season one as well, since you weren't part of the season one coverage. And it was actually kind of fun going back and rewatching it. I'm not going to lie. It was a little bit. And honestly, in preparation for this, I listened to the old podcast that you guys did just to kind of remember what you guys were saying about it to help me. And it's just it was fantastic. So it was a fun little exercise. There's a couple of things I noticed upon this rewatch, too, that I was like, did we talk about that last year? Absolutely.

[00:11:41] I don't remember if we talked about that last year. I know I'm very excited. I'm very excited to go through it. So, all right, I'll let you kick things off then. You were kind of ready to roll with some of the stuff talking about Maggie's character and how much more of a dynamic character she's becoming because of this pair up with Negan. So if you want to just roll right with that, I say go for it. All right. Fair enough.

[00:12:05] So when it comes like, all right, Maggie's character in a lot of ways has kind of always found ways to frustrate me. And I know that you're a big Lauren Cohen fan. I love my Lauren Cohen. I know you do. I here's the deal. Okay. I fell out of love with Lauren Cohen when I was watching or Lauren Cohen rather when I was watching Chuck and she was Vivian Volkoff and she broke Chuck's heart and it broke my heart. So that's fair.

[00:12:32] I've always been a little a little off center from her, but I've since come around. It's okay. However, there were parts of Maggie. I always kind of fought with her stubbornness or bullheadedness when she wanted to kill Rick after he kept Negan alive like that lasted all of 20 seconds. But I had issues with the Maggie character. The accent always made me laugh. It reminds me of James Vanderbeek in Varsity Blues. I don't want your life a little bit.

[00:13:00] Well, what what cracks me up the most about her accent is because everybody thinks she's British putting on an American accent, but she's actually an American putting on a British accent putting on an American accent. It's fantastic. It's like she's from New Jersey, right? She was born in New Jersey, which is just the best people are from what I understand. Hey, I'm from New Jersey. I know I said the best people. I know you were pointing at me, but it was for the for the listeners. They couldn't see that. All right. That's true. All right. Ben's from New Jersey. He's good people.

[00:13:30] So anyways, but what I really like about this show is and I'm sure it upset and rankled some folks, but it really is trying to reframe it as Maggie is someone that seems to be unhingedly going at her desired plan at all costs. Damn, like caution to the wind, get it done.

[00:13:50] And the way that she's keeping things from Jenny and Megan shows kind of her duplicitousness and it's it's painting her in a less than altruistic light, which I think is really, really important for where this show needs to go. And I want to know kind of what you thought rewatching at this time of the Maggie we see now versus the Maggie we always knew in Walking Dead proper. So, I mean, it's interesting that you you throw it to me as well, because in rewatching it, I did notice a little bit more and actually gained a little bit more.

[00:14:21] I noticed more of the complexity of Maggie's character upon the second rewatch than I did the first one because. So I feel like even before I go into this, we have to do a quick recap of the summary of what happens in the season. That's a great. And just to make it quick, a quick summary, we we see that Maggie is in search for Negan because her son has been kidnapped. She needs Negan's help to get to get over to the city to rescue her son.

[00:14:50] She wants Negan's help because Negan is aware of the person, the Croat, who is the gentleman who I say gentleman is not a gentleman. The person that kidnapped, kidnapped her son. And then throughout the course of it, we see events happen. A biodiesel happens to come into play, which I think is fucking genius. We'll get into the science, I'm sure.

[00:15:20] But yeah, I love it. But it leads me to the reveal that happens by the end. And that is the fact that the Croat did not kidnap her son for any particular reason. It was all part of the plan with that. The Croat wanted Negan to come to the city. And Maggie was the one that was to bring him there. And in order to do that. So it wasn't Maggie wasn't bringing Negan with her to rescue her son.

[00:15:47] Maggie was bringing Negan because that's what the Croat wanted. It was a tradeoff. It was a tradeoff. Negan for Herschel. But that moment where you realize that. Because you don't realize that throughout the entire season until the last second. So I think it's the second to last episode. That's when you find out. Second last episode, right. Is when that reveal happens. But knowing it ahead of time, going into the rewatch. Because it took me a minute. It took me until about episode three of the rewatch. Where I was like, wait a minute.

[00:16:16] I'm remembering now that this is all part of the plan. Negan was supposed to like. This was a tradeoff for Negan. To get Negan. What felt kind of like a little bit of shoddy writing. Perhaps at first of. That's so weird. Maggie's in this entire community full of individuals that would gladly take up arms. Why is it that Negan is the only one that she can take into the city to rescue her son back? Once you watch it with the perspective of.

[00:16:46] Oh, this isn't a rescue mission. This is a hostage transfer. It makes a whole lot more sense as to what Maggie's plan was all along. And why at times it was a lot more haphazard than we're used to seeing from the Walking Dead gang. Well, I mean. Yeah. I mean. And. You know. Kind of like. You mentioned the shoddy writing. They do throw that little caveat in there that. Oh, she wants Negan to go because Negan is familiar with the Croat. She heard the whistle from the Croat.

[00:17:14] And that reminded her of Negan. Figured they knew each other. I'll take Negan with me. He owes me. Forever. Exactly. Yep. And. Okay. It's believable. And especially when you're going into this complete unknown, which one of the main reasons, one of the main things that drew me into. Dead city. And I talked about this during the season one coverage is one. I'm a fan of Negan as a character. He's. I love complex characters. I really love complex characters.

[00:17:44] Ben Linus from lost. One of the most complex characters have that has ever been on television. He has my favorite character on that show. Negan is another complex character. And he. That's it drew me in because of Negan. It drew me in because of obviously Lauren Cohen. Continuing the story is Maggie. And. The environment of New York City. I love New York City. And to get to see a ravaged New York City post apocalypse.

[00:18:14] I'm all about that. It was kind of like seeing Lincoln financial field for me. And in the ones who live, even if it was ravaged by by bombs, just seeing where the Philadelphia Eagles play. Go birds. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. But. But you bring up an easy, interesting kind of segue. Do you want to get into the Negan of it all? Well, I wanted to go back to real quick about the the Maggie aspect of it. Um. Because you asked me what I thought about this. This different Maggie. And I actually.

[00:18:42] I was already a fan of Maggie's character. But because. Like I said. I'm a fan of complex characters. The fact of teaming her up with Negan made her more complex. We not only saw Maggie struggle with having to deal with partnering with Negan. Something you know she did not want to do. It absolutely disgusted her. But by the end of this series. And I talked about this during our coverage of it last year. These two characters were so magnetic.

[00:19:12] In the sense that. Maggie brought. Like when they were polar opposites. Teaming up. They pulled each other close. To the center. Negan became softer. And more. Caring. And like. Concerned. Especially with. Oh, what's her name? Ginny. Ginny. Especially with Ginny. And having to care for her. And having. Having heard that he sent Anna. And his kid away.

[00:19:41] And like abandoned them. But took up Ginny. After killing her father. And then. But we've also got Maggie. Who was against anything that Negan did. But was starting to. They drew towards each other. And they became more similar. Than either one of them wanted to admit. It's why. I think that final scene. In that finale. With the split screen. Of the two of them looking up. Half and half. Is brilliant. I would agree. And.

[00:20:10] It also shows how. Man. When they fight together. They are pretty damned unstoppable. You know. Of all the TV shows. That have recently come out. And the. Crazy pairings. That just so happen to work. I would equate. Maggie and Negan. To Daredevil and Punisher. When they team up. They can do anything. One is a little bit more gruesome. But they can both get shit done. That's a good comparison. Because they both. They both do what needs to be done. But in two completely different ways.

[00:20:40] Very different codes. And they're not happy. About each other's code. Absolutely. But they'll still work together. Because they know that what they're fighting for is right. It's just the methodology is where they disagree. Yeah. That's a good comparison. I kind of like that. All right. So. So in talking of the Negan of it all. I just want to. For those that are kind of just getting back to it. That didn't go through a rewatch. Which I get it. That's six hours. It's a lot of time. We're all busy people. We talked about some names there. I just kind of want to bring back to you.

[00:21:09] So Negan is brought back to us at this time. And he has a little child with him. By probably. I don't know. What? 11, 12. I think. 13, 15. Something like that. I would say. Yeah. I would say at the oldest. Maybe 13. Okay. And this girl does not talk. At first. We don't exactly know why. Then we find out. Oh. Negan and she came upon her father as a walker. He was dead. She's been dumbstruck ever since. So Negan is taking care of her. When he agrees to go on this mission with Maggie. To go get Herschel.

[00:21:38] The agreement is that he'll go with Maggie. As long as the girl is protected at their community of the bricks. Everything's great. But homegirl is not really enjoying her time at the bricks. So she leaves and goes to Manhattan where Negan and Maggie are to try and find him. And that's just kind of a little bit of backstory there. Because I'm sure we're going to get into what happens from there. But she paddles over in a cooler, by the way. Yeah. And I just listened to that. You know what?

[00:22:08] You know what? If Jack can't fit on a door and we're all going to give James Cram and crap for 30 years for it, then sure. She can go in in a glue cooler. Why not? Maybe it was a Yeti. I don't know. Did I? What was my reaction to that last season? There's no way that's going to work because something's going to tip. You're not going to. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You were myth bustering the hell out of that one. Okay. I stand by my opinion of that from last year. I should hope so. Because even watching that again this year, even watching it again in the rewatch the other day, I'm like, yeah, that's not going to work. Right.

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[00:23:08] All right. So you talked about the two halves of the face. So should we talk about the other half of the top billing? Sure. All right. Mr. Negan. A lot, as Ben alluded to, a lot of people have very strong negative feelings towards Negan. Ben, what's your relationship with Mr. Negan? What do you mean by relationship with Mr. Negan? I guess. So did you know of him in the comics before the show? Yes. Did you know what happened to Glenn through the comics before the show? Yes. Okay.

[00:23:38] So then... I not only knew what happened in the comics, I own Walking Dead number 100, the debut of Negan. So how has that... I guess... Okay. So I guess here's why I'm asking that is because when I came into The Walking Dead, it was like season 10. So I had known for years just through pop culture that Glenn died at the hands of Negan, even though I didn't really know what that meant. So when I got into The Walking Dead, I never really formed that attachment with Glenn.

[00:24:08] I knew this was coming. And then I read the comics and like, Negan, sadistic, hilarious. So, you know, I never really had that visceral reaction. And I'm just so surprised by people that read the comics and then watched the show and yet still hated Jeffrey Dean Morgan's Negan because of it. So I just want to talk to one of you. Like, what's that? What is that? So I can't speak for anybody else. And I can't say like what they're... I understand certain people.

[00:24:37] Kristen, for example. So Kristen is somebody you and I both know, my co-host from Revisited. She refuses to watch Dead City because she feels Negan is an absolutely deplorable character. Everything he has ever done, he deserves no redemption whatsoever. Doesn't matter what he does. He could literally sacrifice himself to save the world. It is not enough for redemption. I look at things a little differently. So first off, I was a fan of The Walking Dead comics. I had read The Walking Dead comics before the show even debuted.

[00:25:05] And when I heard we were getting a Walking Dead television series, I was super excited. I was like, if they stick to the source material, which hopefully they will because Kirkman is attached, this show is going to be fantastic. And season one, not so much source material. And season two, back on track. And now we're starting Herschel's Farm, all of this stuff, all along the way.

[00:25:33] And then I hear the news that Negan is coming into The Walking Dead. I'm like, okay, things are going to go to hell on this show. People are either... And I said this back then. I was like, people are either going to love this or absolutely hate this. Because this is not a nice guy. But I am... When it comes to television and film, I am... I love villains. Love villains.

[00:26:01] The more deplorable, the better. If they're portrayed well. So I was like, okay, casting for Negan has to be good. And I heard a ton of rumors. The rumor mill was spreading like crazy. And before Jeffordine Morgan was cast, Jon Hamm was attached. He'd have been good, but he wouldn't have been JDM. But he would have been good. And when Jon Hamm was attached, I was like, yeah, I can see that.

[00:26:31] Like, I'm excited about that. I hope that turns out to be true. And then the official announcement came out that it was Jeffordine Morgan. I'm like, nope, that's better. I'm like, that's 100% absolutely better. I didn't know him beforehand. And now I know him from Supernatural. He's awesome. He's amazing at everything. I knew him from Supernatural. And I was like, totally stoked. I was like, yeah, like that's better. I was like, but again, people are going to love this or hate this.

[00:26:57] I knew in that season premiere with Glenn and Herschel, that was a surprise because that is not in the comics. You mean Glenn and Abraham? Abraham. Sorry, not Herschel. Yeah. Glenn and Abraham. Thank you for the question. Although he was already alive longer than he should have been. Because he, Denise took his spot on the show. Correct. Yes. He was on borrowed time. Yes. So it didn't bother me that Abraham was taken out at the same time because, you know, again, borrowed time. Absolutely.

[00:27:26] The more I got to see of Negan, and a lot of it became a departure from the comics. The further we got on, a lot of it was a departure of the comics. But it was still good television. I started to believe the more complex. Again, I make the comparison to Ben Linus. Ben Linus was a horrible person. Yes. Absolute deplorable villain when we brought him in. And then you started finding out about his backstory.

[00:27:54] And it made his character so much more complex. And then you find out about Negan's backstory. You find out about Lucille. And then you start making comparisons like, okay, think about this. If Rick was in the same situation, Rick would have become Negan. Like, these are similar characters just from different environments. And you got to remember, Rick did murder Gracie's dad at the Survivor outpost. And that happened.

[00:28:22] Like, no one's hands are clean in the apocalypse. Glenn himself killed two of the Saviors by just jabbing the knife into their neck at the Savior's outpost. Like, all is fair in love and war. Not really, but in this world. There is a line that Negan says in season one, in the premiere of season one of Dead City, when he says to Maggie, how many fathers and husbands have you killed? And it was at that moment, I was like, oh, shit. Like, yeah.

[00:28:53] Someone said there's truth to that. And I got it. I got to wonder. Do you think some of the visceral reaction from the Walking Dead fans at large was a that they had already juked us out? With Glenn in the dumpster and had brought him back for all of what? Two more episodes just to kill him off unceremoniously. And folks were really upset because they thought that they'd already come to peace with the idea of Glenn being dead under the dumpster. And then they brought him back like, oh, okay. Just to give him that gruesome death.

[00:29:23] That Steve. That the character. Steven Yeun was excited for it. He got it. He understood why, to quote lost, he was a sacrifice that the island demanded. Like, yeah, it was just it was what was needed for that time and that part of the story. Like, he was the sacrifice that Abraham wasn't going to blow the skirt up. Glenn does. I think part of it is getting back to your question as to, like, why people are the way they are when it comes to Negan.

[00:29:50] They're that conflicted or they're that against is. And I want to say this as gingerly as possible because I don't want to offend anybody when I say it. But people who have not read or are not familiar with the source material, it's easier for them to get attached to particular characters because they don't. It's still unknown to them what's going to happen for someone like for people like us who have read the comics and were aware of Glenn's fate.

[00:30:20] We tend to not get as attached to that character. We still love Steven Yeun and his portrayal of Glenn, but. We're not we're not getting as attached to Glenn because we know he's not of this. He's not for this world. Same thing with Abraham, same thing with Herschel, same thing with anybody comparisons now, even to the last of us. Yes, Joel's death was horrific.

[00:30:47] Sick, but with those of us who played the game, we knew it was coming. We prepared ourselves already. I didn't expect it in episode two, but hey, a lot of people didn't. I even when we talked about the last of us season one, I was like, I don't know if it's going to happen that early. That had midseason finale written all over. Right. That's what I said. After seeing it, though, it was it was the best time. It was because we would just been pissed off until it actually happened. Like, when's it going to be like you keep hinting at it. Okay.

[00:31:14] But again, going back to The Walking Dead, like Glenn's death, I I'm able to take it because I knew it was coming. I knew this was what was going to happen. I think some people who have never like again, if you're not familiar with the source material and you don't know about that, you allow yourself to get attached to that character so that when it does happen, you are devastated. Yep. Not Charlie's boat or not Penny's boat. Not Penny's boat. Exactly.

[00:31:41] One of those moments that just just hearing those three words strung together, not Penny's boat. There is a contingent of people listening to this show that just got a lump in their throat. Remember, I image. I took a screenshot. No lie. This was a couple of years back. I took a screenshot of that, of Charlie holding his hand up and I made it my Facebook cover cover image. That's just wrong. Right. I had so many people like, why? Why? Why would you do that? Why would you do that? I was like, it's just a picture. It doesn't matter. So, but I know that there's.

[00:32:11] I'm sorry. Go ahead, Ben. No, no. And I was just going to say, like, getting back real quick. And I think that's why some people have a hard time forgiving Negan, because it's almost like they act. He actually brutally murdered someone in their own family. Yes. Because they were that attached to the character. That makes perfect sense. And I absolutely respect that. And the things I always go back to is, in theory, the only reason Negan did that is because Rick's party struck first.

[00:32:39] And they killed several saviors between Daryl with the RPG and then the satellite outpost and all that stuff. Like Rick's group had a pretty high body count at that point. But the other thing is, and I know a lot of people can't get past Negan's harem. And you know what? I got nothing. No, I got nothing for that either. That is just deplorable behavior. The only thing I can say is Negan is clearly a man with dark impulses and a willingness to be ruthless and whatnot.

[00:33:07] But I feel like with what we got in the episode, here's Negan, we learned that he was really a broken man that was trying to feel through hedonism and masochistic behavior and bravado. And he was ruthless and he was evil and he was wrong. But me, and I love Kristen at death. She's one of my favorite humans. She reminds me of my big sister. She's the best.

[00:33:31] But me personally, I refuse to live in a world where I can't accept that someone can be saved, that someone can be redeemed. That with the right amount of contrition, with the right amount of positive actions after negative actions, that you can be redeemed. That there is still a path forward for someone. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing? So for me to just write Negan off, I just, I won't do it and I can't do it. Everyone, I think, has the opportunity to be saved.

[00:33:59] And Negan's done a lot of really good shit since that lineup. Look at that. Look at the finale of The Walking Dead. Absolutely. You know, when he stood up in front of everyone, was willing to sacrifice himself for people who literally locked him up and tortured him. Because he knew that he deserved it. Because of things that he did. Yeah, exactly. Yes. And also, there's a contingent out there. Again, I've been listening to the Dead cast for years now. There's a contingent out there that likes to point out that he was willing to bash Carl's heads in. And yes, Carl's head. Sure.

[00:34:29] He was a kid. But that was a kid that had gunned down many of his men already. That kid was a full-blown soldier, which is why Negan did not see him as a child. I do believe that Negan cares about kids. He just did not see Carl as a kid in that moment. Had to be on that soapbox for a hot seat. Well, no. And that's actually a really good point. Because it is kind of contradictory. Because there is a scene in Dead City Season 1, which we see a returning Steven Oog, which is great.

[00:34:55] And it's where you find out about the backstory of the Croat, where they say, kids is a line we do not cross. Absolutely. And there was a line that the Croat crossed. Yes. But I think you're right. I think Carl was different. Carl was a soldier. Carl was a man. Carl was not a kid. Not by the time Negan met him. By the time Negan met him, he was a man. But I mean, again, I'm with you that I don't think anybody is completely beyond redemption.

[00:35:23] I think anybody deserves the chance to be redeemed, to show that they have changed as a person. And Negan has done more than enough to do that. But we see, getting back to talking about Dead City Season 1, we see even more of that. We mentioned Ginny. He has taken up this girl and has become her guardian. He is protecting her. And he's doing so very well.

[00:35:49] The whole, you know, keeping track of her dinosaur, the scene where he finds the dinosaur and the dinosaur has a tear in the stomach. And he takes out gauze and he wraps it up and seals it up and says, you know, the surgery was successful. And he hands back to her. That's so sweet. As a dad, like that's that's the stuff that matters. And like if I can just real quick highlight the hilariousness of Negan seems to be a phenomenal parental figure to every kid he comes across in his life.

[00:36:18] Whereas Maggie, for whatever reason, with her own flesh and blood child that she loves more than life itself, he hates her. And there's a line. There is a difference between normal teenage angst, teenage angst and whatever the hell Herschel's going through. Like the level of rude that he is to his mother, given the world that they've been in for all these years, I can't get past. Like I can't stand Herschel. That's a really good point. And I don't think that's anything we discussed last season.

[00:36:44] And it's kind of like it makes Maggie and Negan kind of like a yin and a yang in that there's a little bit of each of them within themselves. Because you're right. As bad of a person as Negan has been, he is a tremendous father figure. And he shows that with Ginny. But as good of a person as Maggie thinks she is, her mothering skills are not the best.

[00:37:10] Now, it could be argued that she is raising a son on her own because Glenn is not around. But Negan and Ginny are on their own completely. Maggie has people at the bricks to help. And I'm sorry, but with the level of natural leadership and charisma that is available to Maggie, I don't raise like I am a divorced dad. Raising kids solo is not easy.

[00:37:37] But I just there I need more in season two backstory of how Maggie failed Herschel for him to be this upset with her all the time, it seems. Because even in the flashback before the Doma got her tentacles into Herschel. Yeah. He was pretty disrespectful of her and and pretty dismissive of whatever she had to say. And like, I need to know how more of how that came to be, because everything that we know about Maggie, that just that doesn't track. I don't I don't know. I don't buy that.

[00:38:07] She wouldn't be a phenomenal mother. I think we're going to get more of that in season two. I mean, if you look at some of the trailers of season two, there's definitely a lot of scenes of Maggie and Herschel together. So I think we're probably going to get more of why that came to be and why that is. So hopefully we'll get a better understanding of that as we go into that. I hope so. Do you want to talk about some of the other characters that were introduced the first season? But most of them did not make it.

[00:38:37] We were talking about that. Like, you know, a lot of the folks they introduced died. So I was thinking we could start with the ones that actually have a chance of showing up in season two. So so I mean, very clearly, we're we're going to get pearly. Armstrong is going to be returning. The Marshall from the mainland is going to be returning back to New York. I think his character became a little bit more interesting towards the end of the season. Excuse me. It took way too long.

[00:39:06] It took way too long. And I I see where they're going with it now. And I hope that just nerfing him for four out of six episodes in the first season was worth it, because I don't know if it was the actor's performance. I haven't really seen him in a lot. I didn't watch Friday Night Lights. But like, I don't know. It just he was not compelling. He was not intriguing.

[00:39:29] The way he traipsed through his his dead brother's like apartment didn't catch me like I just pearly Armstrong up until the last episode and a half. I could have done without. I could have done without. So now he seems to be the Marshall with a conscience heading back into the belly of the beast of New Babylon. So we'll see. But I was not impressed with season one pearly. And maybe that was the point.

[00:39:53] Yeah, I mean, I mean, we get some cool moments with pearly, like when the Croat makes the one guy swallow the key and then pearly has to kind of rip his stomach open to get it and then take off his boot and, you know, defeat some other zombies within a game. Pretty gangster. Yeah. I mean, we've seen they good. They did a good enough job of letting us know that pearly is a badass. He's not a Marshall because for shits and giggles like he is. He's good at what he does.

[00:40:22] But it's not until we see him teamed up with Negan against his will that we kind of get more out of pearly. And that happens. You're right. It happens way too late in the season that I want to like this character. So I'm really hoping we're going to get more dynamics from his character in the second season. I think we are. And I think, you know, and this is something, honestly, this is a dynamic. I completely forgot until I just did this rewatch and they started setting it up.

[00:40:50] But so pearly goes back to new Babylon, which is a host of settlements in the new world. And one of the interesting things is they have a trio of walkers hanging outside of the entrance. And is it just me or every time a community has walkers as like signposts? It's never a good community. It's never good people that do that, whether it be the savior outpost or Poe and his friends in season 11. It's just it's never good to use walkers in that way.

[00:41:17] Well, I mean, and that's one of the cool things that the show does in setting up in like in that last episode of season one is it kind of it sets up this whole thing where, you know, the Croat and the Barazzi and the Dama and all these people are horrible, horrible people. And then you get to that final episode where you see pearly return to new Babylon and it's the leader of new Babylon.

[00:41:44] That's like, well, whoever, you know, we want to know about the methane. And then it switches again back to the Dama talking about any time there's new people that come in with new laws. The first thing they go after is the resources. It's like, well, OK, like are the Barazzi as bad as we think they are or are they just protecting what they've what they've created? They're the ones that came up with the methane, the biodiesel with using zombies as a as a power source.

[00:42:11] And new Babylon wants to come in and take it away. It now adds an interesting new dynamic in that who is the real villain and who is not. But it's again, it's that Maggie Negan dynamic is that they're both trying to accomplish something. It's just the matter of the way they go about doing it. New Babylon is probably not this great place that they, you know, this new world order that they thought of. They're probably horrible people. Well, and think about how they really introduce it.

[00:42:41] Pearly is is questioning the folks at the bar using as much force as he wants and eventually just straight up murders the bar owner by throwing her to a pack of walkers for aiding and abetting, even though she gave completely complied and did everything. And it's all because he was able to shroud himself in the law and says, well, the law says I can. And in this world, just, you know, kind of like our own sometimes the laws, whatever the hell you say it is. And you can just enact it however you want.

[00:43:09] And I think that as pearly starts to peel back the onions and realize there's more complexity to things and realizes, oh, wait, hold on. We had a magistrate that was going around physically and assumingly sexually assaulting women and just expecting to get away with it. And we're actually trying to find their killer. Maybe that's not maybe that's not the group I want to be a part of. Actually, maybe that's not where I need to be. I think he's going to become somewhat of a weird double agent.

[00:43:38] But the question is, if it's between New Babylon and the New York City Baratze, is that just picking between, I don't know, Joffrey Baratheon and the Night King? Like either way, it sucks. But you got to pick a side. I don't know which one's the right one there. It's I don't know. I mean, and it makes me kind of pose this question to you. And I realize now we're kind of blending season one recap into season two predictions. And I think that's totally fine. I have a feeling that was probably how it was going to go anyway.

[00:44:07] We see by the end of the season that Negan has is is accepting the Dama and is starting to not necessarily accepting. But we have we see him going in that direction. We see how he could be motivated to follow. Yes. Her. That's a better way to put it. Yes. And in the previews for season two, we see that he is very clearly working with the Dama. He is working. I've seen no previews.

[00:44:33] I've I've left myself completely blind, which is magical as hell. So then I'm going to spoil two things. Go for it. I don't mind. One. He is side by side with the Croat again. Naturally. Many scenes. And he is working with the Dama. He is in that church addressing all of the Barazzi. He has Lucille again. And so what you're saying is. Nice for listeners at home. Alex just pulled out Lucille. Damn right.

[00:45:03] I did. So he is in full savior Negan style to us, the audience. That is what he is showing us, the audience. I think it's a ruse. Of course. That's my. Yes. Me too. Me too. You mentioned the double agent with pearly. I think it's the same with Negan. I don't think Negan is going back to his going back to his ways because I don't think he wants to.

[00:45:28] And I think even in that scene in the second episode of season two, when he literally guts and knock, knock. Yeah. The knock, knock scene, which is one of the best scenes of the. So good. I loved it to pieces. You can tell in that moment after he does it, he did what was necessary, but hated doing it just in the sense of what of having to turn and face Maggie afterwards. And it was instant regret.

[00:45:53] And, you know, it's so funny because Negan in a lot of ways reminds me sometimes and man, I'm going to piss some people off here, but of Sandor Clegane in that has the ability to be gruesome, can cut down the squire boy, Micah, but can also shuttle area Aria across, you know, the, the King. Like I think Sandor is, is a complex character to the level of Negan of like, he's going to do what he's got to do to survive.

[00:46:20] And I definitely think if it weren't for the fact that he knows the Doma could go get Herschel at a moment's notice, he wouldn't be so easy to just slip into the character. I just wonder if maybe a part of him doesn't always hate the character. Yeah, that's true. I mean, and you talk about Herschel again as well. And we see by the end, you know, you had mentioned we see even before, uh, you know, the Doma, the Doma had like, it's had her hooks in Herschel.

[00:46:45] He was all, he was a horrible person to Maggie, but I have a feeling by the end, it is complete brainwash. I mean, for sure. We see Negan open a box with Herschel's toe in it. Like while he's under the control of the Barazzi. Well, and, and while Herschel's got, you know, love letter pictures of the Doma, like it's the Titanic going down and he's Leo and he's just sketching him out. So like, there's a little something weird going on there. Um, yeah.

[00:47:12] I can't wait to see more though, because just a little bit that we saw of the Doma has me real interested. She was captivating as hell. She was menacing yet soft in her menacingness. Like it was a phenomenal, phenomenal performance. Can't wait to get more. Well, it's even one of the things that I touched base on when we covered this last season too, was I had said that I don't think the Croat is in charge. No. And, and it turned out to be the case.

[00:47:39] Not only is he not in charge, he is literally just a henchman. He is with his own henchman. That's it. Yep. Because we see that scene when he first goes to visit the Doma in the church. There's that woman that comes out and just bumps into him. Like he's like, like he's a nobody. Just fish. Yep. Because yeah, he's a big fish in his own pond, but in the big pond, he's a guppy. You know, he's, he's not even a lieutenant in this army. Right.

[00:48:08] He is a, I don't know. He's a henchman. He's a henchman. He's a, he's a higher gun. Can we talk about the Croat for a second? Sure. All right. So I grew up in a Croatian community and it's so weird for me to hear them call him the croat and the Croat because I always thought that was a derogatory term where I grew up. So it's always really weird to hear it on television. Um, but I think he's a phenomenal character and I really find it fascinating that it presents

[00:48:36] Negan the opportunity to look at a mirror version of himself. Had he never met Rick and company? Yeah. That's a really good point. Like been put on that path of redemption. He would have been just as, if not worse than the Croat. Um, also, do you know who the Croat played on lost? Oh, so this is the lost connection that you were talking about. Wait a minute. There it is.

[00:49:06] No. Yeah. No. Yep. Wait, he was not Mikhail. No. No. Okay. Wait, Juliet's husband, the jerk doctor that got hit by the bus. Oh, Dr. Edmund Burke. Yes. Was trying to steal her cancer research. That was the guy that is now the Croat. Okay. Right. That's, that is a lost connection that I did not see.

[00:49:34] I mean, that's just purely an actor form, but that's fantastic. I mean, in that case, you could say that, you know, Abraham was also one lost because he was, because Michael Cutlitz was on lost. He sure was. Um, no, that's a good connection though. I like that. I like that. So, yeah, but yeah, I mean the Croat, you're right, is such a dynamic character. I've been using that word dynamic a lot, but there's this show full of dynamic characters and you're right. It's, it's interesting because he is a mirror image of what Negan would have become.

[00:50:04] Um, and I think that's one of the reasons why Negan hated going to New York to face him because one, he didn't want to be face to face with this character again. And two, he was afraid of what might happen if he was. Oh, for sure. He was going to get, would he get pulled back into this world? Absolutely. Plus he knew that he took a shot. The man missed and that man was probably a little bit upset. Yeah. Eye for an eye. Ear for an ear. No, he says something else.

[00:50:34] He says, I think he says like eye for an eye, ear for a dick or something like that. I don't remember. I forget exactly what the line was. It's always colorful though. It's always colorful. Um, do you want to touch on any of the characters that did not make it past season one? So we, I mean, there's a number of them. We have Luther who ends up being a, becoming a victim of, of, of Negan and by total circumstantial. Exactly. He fell. That was not Negan's intention. For sure. One bit was to murder Luther.

[00:51:04] But Luther wanted to murder Negan. So like, fair is fair. Um, but you know, that also brings up Amaya and Tommaso. Yeah. I really wish we could have spent more time with Amaya. I really liked her. I, Tommaso. Okay. Um, but I really liked Amaya. I, I was okay with Tommaso being like a traitor and in the end ending up getting his, but I'm with you. Like Amaya's death was not deserved. No.

[00:51:33] Um, it was purely wrong place at wrong time. She did everything she could to help Maggie and Ginny and she did not deserve to die. You always hate those people that survived the zombie apocalypse for 25 years just to trip and get killed. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's, that's a good point. However, it does bring me to something that I completely forgot about and I thought was fucking badass. And that was the zombie. Yeah. The quad zombie.

[00:52:00] The quad zombie that Maggie had to fight. The, the, the, the zombies that just kind of blended together and melted together and fused and oozed together. Like one that was Bravo, Greg Nicotero. And I, I love the fact that I can call that man an acquaintance now because I, I get to talk to him every time I see him working shows now, but I can not.

[00:52:28] I next time I see him, I'm going to have to, I, I, I have to remind myself to bring up that zombie. Got to come to Greg. That was amazing. And, and you gotta be, you gotta be impressed when a show can still surprise you 12 years later. Yeah, exactly. I mean, other than, I mean, still like the well bloater is, is still a great one as well. But that one, man, that quad zombie was just, Oh God, it was like, it was chef's kiss of, and something new with the zombies.

[00:52:58] And you know, one of the funny things is you gotta remember when dead city came out, last of us had not yet premiered. So the quad zombie may have been one of the more freakish gruesome ghouls before we started getting our first clickers and bloaters. And honestly, after the assault on Jackson hole, the other weekend, I was coming back to that city. Like, all right, how are they going to like, I've seen quarter steps. Like it's a little hard to, to be scared by zombies, but man, zombie King did it. Zombie King did it great.

[00:53:27] So I, I have to correct you on something. Oh no. We actually just talked about this on the episode of the cast of us that we talked about earlier. No, no. Okay. Uh, it is not Jackson hole. It's just Jackson. Why did I think it was Jack? Is that Mississippi Jackson hole? No Jackson. So Jackson hole is close to Jackson. They're both in Wyoming, but Jackson is where they are in, in the last of us.

[00:53:51] We think people started saying Jackson hole because in an episode of the cast of us, Jason was referencing Lord of the Rings and said, Jackson hold. Gotcha. And we think people heard Jackson hole and started calling it Jackson hole. Son of a gun. Well, it is in our actuality. It is just Jackson. They are not in Jackson hole. Well, consider me geography.

[00:54:22] Well done. I love that. But yeah, so we met a bunch of people and said goodbye to them all in the same season, which by the way, I don't know how much of the spinoffs. I'm sure you watched, uh, the ones who live, right? And Daryl Dixon season one and season two. I actually have not. I actually haven't watched Daryl Dixon yet. Okay. So I'm not going to spoil anything for you, but it seems odd that in these spinoffs, they really only care about us knowing our main characters.

[00:54:49] And when we're introduced to new people, it's, it feels like for the most part, they died then like Nat from, uh, the ones who live, who was Michonne's kind of travel buddy. I love Nat. And then Nat died in the same episode he was introduced. And like just everyone, um, you bring in Terry O'Quinn and do practically nothing with him. I don't know. So I'm curious to see how many more people are going to fall in love with and lose in the same season.

[00:55:13] Well, I mean, in that, so it brings up another, uh, you know, talking, looking ahead into season two, we are going to get to meet some new characters. And one of the new characters they're going to be introducing is actually somebody I've actually had on my Wilhelm podcast a number of times. He's an amazing actor. And I love, I'm so excited. And that's Kim coats, um, who has been in sons of anarchy. He's been in a bunch of things. If you saw his face, you'd know exactly who he was. Um, I am DB and him. Yeah.

[00:55:42] Um, okay. Yeah. But Kim coats is a fan of fantastic actor. And I know he's listed for at least five episodes of this season. So we're going to get some, we're going to get a good amount of whatever character he's playing. It hasn't been revealed what character he's playing yet, but I think he is a Lieutenant of the Dama. Ooh. Okay. You know, and that's the thing.

[00:56:07] I am really excited to see the rest of the world that they're going to build for us and the rest of the New York factions and just how big new Babylon stretches. Like you said something in the first season that really resonated with me. And I hope that they explore it more, which is the idea that dead city doesn't have to be the Maggie and Negan show. It can be the show about New York as a city, as the battleground, as what everyone is going for.

[00:56:35] And I love if they branched out and told us more stories that weren't so Negan and Maggie centric so that we could get a more fleshed out, well-rounded story about what all is going on. Well, I mean, you know, you look at certain shows, another, another one I'll use as an example is the flash.

[00:56:53] And I mean, I know we're completely off from a zombie show talking about a superhero show, but the name of the show is the flash, which means if, if somebody else, if Grant Gustin as Barry Allen was written off of that show and somebody took up the mantle of the flash, you can still call that show. The flash. This is not walking dead Maggie and Negan, right? This is like it is in or like, like Daryl Dixon. This is dead city. You're right.

[00:57:23] This could be a show that if it ever came down to it and you decided to write off Maggie or Negan or they like whether they die or they leave the city, you can continue a spinoff. In New York city with these new characters that you're introducing because it's not their show. Absolutely. Yes. This dead city is the character of this show.

[00:57:49] And I think maybe Negan and Maggie was the entry point and they'll find a way to evolve past that. I really, I really do hope so because when you said that and then after watching the first full season, there is so much storytelling meat on this bone. If they really want to expand it and like, it could be interesting. Like I, if they do it well, it could be really good.

[00:58:13] I'm not saying I need an episode of Morgan and the cheesemaker right after the wolves get into Alexandria, but there are ways that they could tell this story so that I could learn more about new Babylon. And the bricks, which sounds like a Lego community, but I know it's not. Or the rest of the New York city factions like that. I'd love to know that succession meets, you know, the walking dead. That'd be fun to watch. Yeah. I mean, I, and I'll be honest with you as, as much as the, I am a fan of Negan and I am a fan of Maggie as characters.

[00:58:43] I would still watch this show. Had those characters left the series. I can, I kept watching the walking dead after Rick left. Yep. Yep. I was not happy about the, what they did with Rick. I thought Rick was a don't get me wrong and please do not write in and criticize me for this. I think Rick should have died. Wow.

[00:59:05] I, the whole bridge explosion, it was a sacrifice for his people and you completely undid it by keeping him alive. I can respect that. I is, he, he should have been, he should have stayed dead. Especially because he essentially was, as far as the walking dead proper is concerned. I mean, he existed to give Michonne a way to exit the show and that was it until his own spinoff. So you're right. Like they were able to, to exist in that universe without him moving forward. Yeah.

[00:59:35] And Daryl may have taken more showers if he just knew that Rick was dead. This, this is also true. You know, what's funny is, you know, we talk about these spinoffs and how they can kind of exist on their own. And I'm not saying this to the humble brag or anything, but I, uh, last year had the opportunity to share the stage with Ross Marquard. Who? Oh yeah. I remember. It was a great interview over on the Wilhelm site. It's fantastic. Yeah. And who most people know as Aaron from the walking dead.

[01:00:02] And part of that interview was we were talking about both of us knowing Greg, obviously him knowing Greg from the walking dead and me from that. And we came up with an idea that he actually already has for a spinoff that would bring Aaron into back into the walking dead universe. Go on. And that is, he wants him. And there was a couple other characters he mentioned because South America is landlocked. You could make a trip down to South America, to Mexico.

[01:00:31] And how cool would it be to have a spinoff somewhere in like old Incan ruins with like some zombies in there. And we even brought up the idea of zombie monkeys. Now you're talking now, now we're mixing the walking dead with the white Lotus and I'm here for it. I've never seen the white Lotus. So I missing out, sir. I know it's on, it's, it's on my list. What isn't? Um, one of the, right.

[01:00:58] One of the other things about walking season one that I want to talk about before we get into like any predictions or anything that for season two, I want to talk about the science because we did bring that up a little bit earlier. And I will say as a science nerd like myself and a zombie nerd like myself, I think the idea of using zombies, whether the science checks or not, I don't care if it checks out. I, I'm not going to write off a show because, Oh, that, that would never work.

[01:01:28] I'm, I'm not like that. The idea of using zombies as a bio diesel fuel source because rotting corpses produce methane. I think it's fucking genius. Heck yeah, it is. And I love the fact that, and again, this is a spoiler for the teasers for the season. And there's a scene in the trailer where we see radio city music hall light up.

[01:01:57] That's gangster because they are powering the city with this methane. They have decided to turn the city on. That's amazing. And I'm here for that. That's great. Can't wait. I think that is ridiculous or not. I think that is a brilliant idea.

[01:02:19] It shows even more so how much the writers are putting into these stories 12 years later, giving us new zombies, new ideas on how people new and creative ideas on how people survive in this world. I mean, we saw, we saw a bar up and running in the first episode. Darn tootin' we did. Where it looked like we were just in a normal world. Just in a normal everyday.

[01:02:44] And you bring up something that I am so happy you did because it's, it's, it's a long lonely fight that I fight. But when folks get all bent out of short, out of sorts about the mathematics and the scientific implications in a lot of fantasy based TV shows. Folks, it doesn't matter what physics say about how long Legolas's arrow should go. He's a freaking elf. It's going to go. Okay. I get it. There's no way in hell.

[01:03:10] Princess Leia should be able to actively float across barren space because there is no gravity in space. She's a Jedi. So maybe there's whatever the hell she wants, guys. There are fire, fire breathing dragons with the Dothraki. We can make it up as we go. You can't scientifically prove things in a fantasy world. So if the methane works in a zombie induced world, I'm here for it. And I'm not even going to question the science. In my mind, it would work. It would work. I'm here for it. Like so much so that if there's ever a zombie apocalypse, guess what I'm fucking doing? What?

[01:03:41] I'm going to create, I'm going to capture zombies and harvest their methane. I'm going to target first, get some snacks from there. I don't know. We'll see. You know what's funny? I actually do have a plan of where I'm going if apocalypse ever happens. You're the man that planned out where you would sit on a plane and who your friends would be as you traveled across landlocked America. I don't doubt that whatsoever. Okay. The fact that I told you that story means I have told you way too much about my life. You told me that story. Oh, no, that was on the podcast. On the podcast. At least twice.

[01:04:10] And it makes me laugh every freaking time. You're right. I looked at the, I looked at an airport full of, a terminal full of people and said, okay. Pennsylvania to Colorado. If the plane goes down, who am I partnering with to survive? Not realizing we will be over landlocked America the whole time. It was a lot more yellow jackets than lost. You just didn't realize it at the time. Pretty much. No, I actually do know where I would head and I would head to Hoover Dam. That makes sense. And the only reason is because if you've ever seen a documentary called Life Without People,

[01:04:41] there's in that documentary, you discover that the Hoover Dam can run unmanned for about 10 to 15 years. There you go. Before it starts to break down. Nice. So that surrounding area will still have power. I'm three miles away from the state capitol. So the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is getting a new shut in named Alex. So I'm just going to go right under William Penn's tomb or whatever. Yeah. There you go. That's all I'm going to do.

[01:05:09] Anything else about season one we kind of touch on before we go into our predictions for season two? Not really. I think anything else I have to say about season one is just a send up for what I'm predicting about season two. So might as well. All right. Well, why don't you kick us off then for season two? All right. So my number one question for season two is who's going to level up first? Is it going to be Ginny or is it going to be the Marshall, Pearly? Who is it that's going to become an ally first between those two?

[01:05:38] That's what I'm excited to see. Yeah. And that's a really good question. And if I had to make a choice, I would say it's probably going to be Pearly, to be completely honest. Okay. Because Negan did pull a stunt with Ginny by admitting that I killed your father and you were simply just a cargo. You were simply. Yeah. A debt that had to be paid, I think, was what he said. Yeah, that's what it was. A debt that had to be paid. Yep.

[01:06:06] Which we all know is not true. He was attached to Ginny. He said it purely because he did not want Ginny following him. Absolutely. And the thing that, oh man, I would have loved to have known what she was going to say. It didn't matter because he figured it out anyways. But like him stopping her in cold blood when she started to talk and was like, no, you don't get to have this connection moment now. After all these months that we've been traipsing around, you haven't connected with me through talk. You don't get to talk to me now when I'm trying to push you away. Yeah.

[01:06:36] Like that, that was a heartbreaking moment for me. It was like just watching their dynamic. And at first I thought Ginny was a very wooden character, actress, whatever. But as the season went on, she's really good actress. And she was able to convey a lot of connection through the characters in the show without talking. I hope she talks this season. I really hope she talks.

[01:07:00] I don't know if, if we'll get a lot of it, but I'm, it's, it's sort of similar to Mel Gibson's daughter in the Patriot. Okay. Yeah. Where she doesn't speak the entire movie until she finally says his name. Well, she calls him Papa. And if that's the case, then here's what I want from Ginny. Okay. If we're not going to have Ginny talk, then I need a Jay and silent Bob dynamic. Pair her up with Herschel. Herschel could be the motor mouth going a mile a minute.

[01:07:27] Her and Ginny could, or he and Ginny could get into some friendly shenanigans together. I don't know. I think that could be fun. And then all of a sudden, Ginny just looks over and says, no ticket. Snoochie boochie, baby. No, but I, I am curious as to how the Herschel, Ginny, Maggie dynamic is going to play out. They're all at the bricks together. Maggie owes Ginny one and Herschel can't really stand Maggie, but needs to go back to the Doma. I'm just, I'm curious as to what's going to happen there.

[01:07:56] Yeah, I am too. Cause there's so many complicated relationships happening now. We've got, you know, Herschel who kind of has, has been brainwashed by the Doma and is, is once they get back, you have Maggie who we don't know what her motivation to go back is yet. Uh, uh, obviously Ginny's going to go back probably for Negan. Uh, we have pearly.

[01:08:22] He's going to go back to Manhattan because either to spy or to whatever, because new Babylon wants him to find out about the methane and the power source. So we have multiple people coming back. We have Negan who's going to be joining the Doma and all of them, but are his motivations true? Is he really going back to that? Or is he playing like a double agent? Right. Um, you know, maybe he's Negan's just going with them until he can perform his own power play and he can take over.

[01:08:50] Um, I'm really excited. He sees it as. I'm really excited to see what they do with Negan. I'm thinking it's going to be, it's going to start as a red herring season in that they're going to make us think that Negan slipped into his old ways and he's back to being just the worst. And then like the end of episode one, it's going to show him like crying in his room or something because he feels so bad about what, whatever that, that plot device seems to be. Um, but I don't know.

[01:09:16] I think a full heel turn could be a really interesting character development for Negan. And if, if it shows that he truly is despicable and needs good people around him or else he will devolve, like, I think that could be an interesting character study. I don't, it would be an interesting character study, but I don't know if it's anything I want to see only because there are people who are willing to give him a shot at redemption and are, and want him to get his redemption.

[01:09:45] And I feel like that would turn off so many people if Negan went full heel again. I would agree with that. I would agree with that, which I guess maybe brings me to the next question. Do you think there's any chance that we get to see Annie and Negan's son again this season? So I was actually thinking a lot about this. I don't, I don't know if we're going to see them at all. Okay.

[01:10:09] I, and what meant, what led me down this road was I started thinking about what is the ultimate end for Negan as a character. And I feel like there's no middle ground for Negan. It is either Negan gets the happy ending where he leaves and he goes back to Anne and their, their baby. Or Negan makes the sacrifice play and ends. Hmm. I don't think there's any middle ground. Okay. Okay. For Negan.

[01:10:39] It's, it's, he's too extreme of a character. It's all or nothing. I like that. But I do think that when he ultimately meets his end, I do firmly believe it will be a sacrifice play. So whether it's for Maggie, whether it's for Herschel, whether it's for Ginny, maybe it's for somebody 20 years down the road. I, I think, I don't think there's just like any just settling for Negan.

[01:11:08] Do you see the end of Negan's arc being sacrifice? I do. Do you see us seeing that? I want to say, I hope not. Okay. But being realistic, maybe next season. I, I think it would be bold as hell.

[01:11:38] Storytelling. If they did it as a way of showing that the city is the main character, not Negan or Maggie. I think that would be a great call for expanding this universe for years to come. However, I think that there is something special about the fact that the very last two words that Robert Kirkman ever wrote about the walking dead was. Negan lives. Yeah, I think that should matter. I don't know why, but I feel like for some reason to Kirkman, those two words matter.

[01:12:08] Negan lives. So I don't think he's going to end as a sacrifice. I don't know. Maybe that's just me really hoping he doesn't die. Hey, I mean, I would be, I would be more, more than happy if by the end of this series, by walking dead, dead city, by the end of walking dead, dead city. Negan is the king of New York. He has brought New York back alive and to prosperity, but not in the way he did it with the saviors.

[01:12:37] It is an actual place for people to find sanctuary and to live as a community. I love that. Because they have amazing. They have power, which means they have the ability to grow. And I think that in itself would be the ultimate redemption for Negan is to take this place and make it a place where the world can legitimately start to grow again. I love that.

[01:13:07] And I hope that is a possibility. So I guess maybe another question. Do you see anyone else from the walking dead universe hopping in, in the current timeline? Maybe a flashback, but let's talk current timeline. Cause I believe dead city is the farthest advanced story in the walking dead universe. 2029. I believe. Yeah. Um, I don't know. Uh, to be completely honest with you, I don't know if it's needed. I wouldn't want to.

[01:13:36] I feel like it would be a stretch and too much fan service at that point. Like, I mean, it was great seeing Stephen O glass season in a flashback. Yep. Um, I don't think it's needed to see anybody in the present day. Okay. I like that. So yeah, except for Morgan. Cause he always finds a way into the walking dead universe. This is also true. This is also, also true. Um, the only other thing I can think of for season two that I want to see, and this is purely

[01:14:04] for a memorable moment for this character at some point in, cause I was hoping it was going to happen in season one and it never did. Negan needs to see the statue of Liberty. Ooh. Okay. Because remember he said that, yes, that that was his, that was a goal. Yes. He is. His father had promised to take him and it never happened.

[01:14:33] And he has never seen the statue of Liberty. And at this point he is so close to being able to make that happen. No, I like that. That's good. That's a good one. So I'm, I'm looking forward to that. I'm also hoping that because we see these trailers where we see radio city music all light up, uh, I'd like to see time square lit up again. That'd be pretty awesome. Cause I love New York.

[01:14:58] So do you think we could get roller skating zombies, uh, around the Christmas tree? Um, you mean ice skating? I do mean ice skating. Yes. Yeah. Um, that'd be awesome. That would be interesting. That'd be something I'd watch. Yeah. I don't know if it's, it's not, it's not going to happen, but the man can dream. We did get a quad zombie. So you never know. That's a good point. That was a very good point. So it would be, it would be kind of funny if they went to Rockefeller center and there's

[01:15:28] in the place where the tree is and on the ground level where the ice skating rink is, is just a horde walking in a circle. That'd be phenomenal. Like you ice skate in a circle on at Rockefeller sculler. Somehow Mariah carries, uh, whatever that Christmas song is, is playing on loop. Oh God. No. Just let Mariah carry me one of the zombies. Oh, there you go. Now we're talking. And the rest of the kids, I'd be happy with that in the show and real life. Look at that again.

[01:15:57] They could have an entire horde themselves. Um, that's really, I think all I have, I know we spent more time talking about Negan and, but I feel like it's appropriate going into this, this second season. Um, for sure. There's a lot of, as for any other, as for any other predictions, I'm just riding it out, man. I'm just looking forward to seeing what happens. Let's, let's see what happens. So I guess, should we just set the table for everyone as to kind of where we're at heading

[01:16:24] into season two, such as at the bricks, which is the new kind of hilltop type settlement. You got Maggie Herschel and Jenny still in New York city. You have Negan, the Doma and the Croat working on their world. And then in new Babylon, you have the Marshall and his evil seeming people trying to gather resources to go into New York city to find out more about the methane production. There you go. Table set. All right. Beautiful. Love it.

[01:16:55] Um, I know we said at the beginning, I was going to play the Steve voicemail. You're not going to play it. Are you going to hold that out? Aren't you? I'm going to wait. Look at you producing this show. Like a champ. I'm going to wait until next week. We're going to kick off the show with that next week. I like that. All right. That's fair. Um, so that I feel like it, a voicemail from Steve is a good way to kind of launch into season. That's a tone setter. That's a tone setter right there. Exactly. For sure. A hundred percent.

[01:17:26] So yeah. So we'll, we'll save that for next week and be ready for that. Uh, but you know what? I will say this. If anybody else has any other kind of predictions that they want us to know about, uh, as far as season two goes, now's the time to get those in and we will, we will put them in with Steve's voicemail at the beginning of next week before we start into the season premiere of the episode.

[01:17:51] Um, but as for now, that's our show episode 638. I want to thank everybody for listening. Next episode for this branch of the podcast will be the walking dead dead city season two premiere power. Power. Yes, indeed. And if you want to write in, as we mentioned, or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all of our contact information over at podcastica.com.

[01:18:17] And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts such as Marvel TV cast, recent coverage of daredevil born again. If you want to check in on Matt Murdock, Kingpin and Vanessa. I was not expecting a Vincent D'Onofrio impression in that. That worked out so well. If you have a chance to do a Vanessa, you have to do a Vanessa. It's, um, no, that's it. That's a good one to recommend. I know we just talked about it on the cast of us.

[01:18:45] Uh, but the Rima is back with strange indeed talking about the current season of you. Uh, you mentioned earlier to a handmaid's tale is, is back as well. And, uh, of course we're talking about the cat, the last of us every week for the next couple of weeks with that as well. So, uh, last but not least before we get out of here, I want to recommend people, of course, go over to the patron, the podcast of the Patreon. If you're not already a member, sign up. It's a great way to support these podcasts.

[01:19:14] You get a lot of cool exclusive, like, uh, you get a lot of these episodes ahead of time before anybody else. Uh, we do monthly call-ins and meetups and things like that. So if you're not already a part of that, uh, just go over, I believe it's patreon.com slash podcast or patreon.com slash Jason Kabassi. It's one of those two. Um, you'll find it searching either one of them and we'll have it in the show notes as well. So you can find it there.

[01:19:41] Uh, but all right, that is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Christy Baseman. Live on DAZN Worldwide, May 2nd and 3rd, Garcia versus Romero and Canelo versus Skull. Friday from 6 p.m. Eastern, Garcia returns in a history-making Times Square takeover. 24 hours later, Saturday from 7 p.m. Eastern, King Canelo faces undefeated Skull for the undisputed crown.

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