651: "Convergence" (The Last of Us S2E7) Listener Feedback

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcast control!

[00:00:37] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Eric. And I'm Ben. This is The Cast of Us, episode 651. And this episode, we're going through your feedback for The Last of Us, season 2, episode 7, Convergence. Yeah, just a little quick final coverage of this season with our 32 pages of feedback. Yeah, I'm really happy that the two or three people, you know, wrote in and had something to say about this.

[00:01:04] I mean, they both, the three people wrote 10 pages each. So, yeah. Just buckle in, folks. This is a road trip. No, I mean, I'm so happy that you guys are so engaged and want to write in. Steve Brown says it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Three hours later. Yeah. No, a few things up front.

[00:01:30] I wanted to mention that our Podcastica Facebook group just hit 1,000 members, which is really cool. Woo! Yay! That's cool. And that's where we get most of the comments that we read on the podcast. Plus, it's just kind of a fun place to talk about TV shows and pop culture. It's good vibes. Yeah. And so, come and join us. If you want to join us, just search Podcastica on Facebook and request to get in there. I also want to say thank you to everyone who's jumped in on my Patreon, which actually is needed to keep this podcast going.

[00:02:00] So, I really appreciate it. We do some perks. We have occasional Patreon exclusive podcasts on there and also occasional themed call-in shows. And Daphne and I just did a podcast with Nathan Eshelman about his recent weekend at this Walking Dead convention in Georgia called The Camp. And he had some really interesting things to say about his talk with Josh Hamilton and the whole hashtag horny for Hornsby thing. Oh, did he? He really did. But you have to listen to the podcast to hear what he had to say.

[00:02:31] Am I allowed back into the States or should I just not? I'll just say this. He remembers us. Oh, no. Which I thought was pretty awesome in some way. So, you got to listen to that one to find out. That would be awesome. Remind me the next time I see you, Jason, that I want to ask about this so you can give me the load. I have no idea what's going on. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I will.

[00:02:58] Over the years, there's been a number of pretty cool things that have come out of the Zet Head groups like the Horny for Hornsby. I remember the John Dory fan club t-shirts. Yes. With the big group photo with Garrett. Yeah. I'll just briefly say this guy, Josh Hamilton, he was in Alive with Ethan Hawke. He was the other guy in that movie, Alive. And he played this character, Lance Hornsby in, you know, Lance in the comic. In the Commonwealth. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:27] The other guy, Josh Hamilton played him. Okay. And he was really good. Okay. And, you know, Lucy was kind of crushing on him and liked his style and everything. And so we came up with hashtag Horny for Hornsby. Okay. And then when I requested to do an interview with him, sent an email off to his publicist and they didn't write back, which often happens. And I figured, hey, I'll try one more time. So a few days later, I wrote a couple other things.

[00:03:51] And I'm like, by the way, you might hear hashtag Horny for Hornsby occasionally on our podcast because our co-host really likes Josh or Josh's character. And then they wrote back immediately and said, he's in. Well, you know, I mean, hey, that's certainly not bad for us. Listeners can't see Lucy like hanging her head in embarrassment. And so we interviewed him and it was great.

[00:04:19] And then, but we were both sort of like, do we bring that up? I don't know. And then when we ended the interview, he's like, that's it. And we're like, yeah. And I thought later, was he waiting for us to bring that up? And so if you listen to this podcast, you will get that answer. There you go. Okay. Dude, I, by the way, I love alive so much. That's such a great fucking movie. It's so good. Yeah. Listen to our interview, Eric, because we talked about it, you know, while he was waiting for us to like, I don't know, show him or junk or something. But yeah. Yeah. He had some great things to say.

[00:04:50] I know we need to get going, but just really quick. Like he said, told the story of how the cast met the actual survivors for a day and they were all reverend and they wanted to make sure, you know, to be really sensitive about it. And he said, he looked over at one point and one of the cast members who were old guys by this time was like, had a knife and fork and was pretending to eat his shoulder. We also just did a call in show where we talked about our histories with TV and some of our favorite TV moments over the years. Like we have to go back and a bunch of other stuff.

[00:05:19] So that'll be out soon. So if you want to join in on that, just go to patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi, tons of fun, and you'll be helping out the podcasting. Some of the prices are probably going to be changing soon, but probably not for anyone who already got in. So if you get in now, you can be grandfathered in. Um, aside from that, just hope you guys keep us in your feed. I'm hoping we can do a seasonal last of us season to wrap up crossover with Chris and Jason at some point. They actually haven't podcasted on it yet, but they're going to. And soon we're going to be covering 28 days later.

[00:05:49] And then the new 28 years later movie when it comes out in theaters in a few weeks here. And last, just, uh, some other shows to check out of ours. Well, we'll be going back, you know, Ben's going to be finishing up dead. Dead city. Then we'll be going back into the walking dead rewatch, but also on other podcast stuff, squid game final season comes out in a few weeks here. So we'll be covering that on a squid game cast. And then I'm going to be starting a new podcast for the upcoming alien earth show premiering in August.

[00:06:17] So that's just some stuff coming up before. Oh my God. I'm looking forward to that. Me too. Really? All right. That's enough of that. Let's get into the feedback. Click, click. I'm a zombie guy. All right. Steve Brown says, I somehow completely missed that Jesse was killed. I thought he was just wounded. I mean, I wish. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, cause people didn't want to believe that Joel was killed either. Yeah. Yeah. They're fine.

[00:06:49] They can get through this. Angie Hill Reynolds says, Oh hell no. I'm not a gamer. And that hurt. I can't wait to hear Steve's voicemail and the podcast on this one. You will hear that soon. Uh, Glenn Douglas. Oh, can we stop with seven episode seasons? The weight between what are increasingly shortened seasons these days is awful. I agree. Absolutely. 100% agree. Stupid.

[00:07:17] Uh, Daniel Dement Joe says the, that ending didn't work for me. They've given us no reason to be interested in Abby's point of view, but I'll watch season three whenever that happens. I think that's pretty much what everyone thinks right now. Uh, I don't, I'm not that interested, but I'm going to watch. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Lisa Spurr, Spurr says, I'm really glad Ellie didn't cut out the baby as cold hearted as that sounds. What would have happened to the newborn baby? It's actually a really good point. Yeah. Who takes care of the baby?

[00:07:47] I mean, you need to, that happens. There's no formula. There's nobody to nurse the baby. I, I, I hadn't really thought that deeply. I've heard. I've heard, I've heard, I've heard about that before, but its prospects wouldn't be great. True that Alma Contreras says, so I just left a voice message, but I had one question that I forgot to mention. How did Abby find them at the theater so fast that she followed them? It just all seemed too convenient.

[00:08:14] I'm guessing we're going to find out in what 20 47. I mean, we'll find out if it's like the game. We'll find out that it's just a little plot detail, but yeah. Yeah, exactly. Given what Jesse said, Ellie probably left a trail of fricking bread crumbs or something. Like a piece of string. Just so I don't get lost. Okay. Like, uh, Matt King, slightly off topic, but I just watched book smart from 2019 starring Caitlin Deaver. And she was really funny in this.

[00:08:44] Hopefully we get to see a lighter side of her seat lighter side of her in season three among the mindless brutality. It is. I've seen book smart. It is incredibly funny. It is a great movie. I haven't. I want to see that. Oh, Jason. You should watch it. Yeah. Yeah. Who was, uh, who's the director? Same. Was it the same? It's Olivia Wilde. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. You know, I just saw some little thing that, uh, apparently, uh, Caitlin Deaver and the

[00:09:12] actress who plays Mel, um, were in a movie together as, as much younger children, uh, an American girl movie. I don't know if it's a hallmark or that, but they were like really young and it was just so cute. Like, Oh, look at them. So cute. Well, she was really good in that last scene there. Nick Archer says for a moment, I thought Elia was about to hear it's so easy to do the wrong thing in this world. So don't. So if it feels wrong, don't do it. All right. If it feels easy, don't do it.

[00:09:40] Don't let the world spoil you. You're so good. I kind of wish he had. Oh yeah. Uh, Lisa Sparrow says, can we please stop threatening to hang our female leads? Yikes. Ellie and Bella was really put through the ringer this episode. The scene in the aquarium was heartbreaking. And now Jesse and not being a gamer, I am on the edge of my seat. You just want all the male leads to be hung or hanged, hanged, hanged. Oh, sorry.

[00:10:11] That's different. She's like, yeah. What about it? Those are different questions. Totally different questions. Back to the comma. All right. Here's Steve Brown. Hello, the cast of us. This is Steve. And here we are. Um, I tried to delay as much as I could this week, but I'm recording this. It's Wednesday morning. Uh, hopefully I get this in in time, uh, for the, uh, season finale of, uh, The Last of Us season two.

[00:10:39] Oh, well, just Bella Ramsey's name in the credits. Uh, and here as the, uh, mycelial network is running, I'm assuming we're only going to see one figure at the end of the credits, meaning no more Pedro. Oh, sure enough. We just had the one figure and now we pick up with Dina and Tommy in the theater. Oh, and she wouldn't drink the alcohol that he tried to give her, uh, to dull the pain because of her baby. Ooh. So Ellie admits to the torture, but that she left Nora alive. Well, sort of alive, infected. So. Okay.

[00:11:08] So Ellie came clean about what Joel did at the hospital and now Dina says they need to go home. So she's giving up the revenge plan. At least Dina is. It's day three and they're, uh, in Seattle. So they're going to go meet Tommy. Ellie and, um, Ellie and, um, um, he and Jesse, right? They're going to go meet Tommy and they're leaving Dina in the theater to hole up and barricade. Ooh, that's not gonna be good. Oh, it's good to know that Shimmer's still alive though. So another TV movie trope, uh, the woman refuses alcohol so she must be pregnant.

[00:11:38] Oh, but he was just guessing. Oh, got her. Okay, Jesse, the more you keep saying that you're not going to die, it makes me think you're going to die. Why is Abby so important to what is this guy's name? The bald guy, um, Isaac, right? I don't remember. Meanwhile, back at the bookstore, um, I guess it was Isaac and we do find out that he was groomy Abby to be the leader. Like, Tommy's not there. I'm gonna pause it for a second because I just saw the title of the episode is Convergence. Did she, did the woman say that about the storms? They're going to be a convergence and it was at the title of the episode. So, mic drop.

[00:12:08] But now Ellie finds, oh, the monster at the end of the book. I remember that from when I was a kid with Grover. I'm sure there's some sort of significance about the fact that at the end of the book, spoiler, Grover is the monster at the end of the book. Oh, and Ellie just figured out what, uh, Nora's words meant that, uh, uh, Abby is in the aquarium by the Ferris wheel. What are those big things that, not Ferris wheel, right? And Ellie's back on her revenge mission. Yep, Ferris wheel. Oh, and the reveal, we already kind of suspected that Jesse was one of the no votes, but now he reveals he was.

[00:12:37] Okay, so, Ellie needs a boat and she just saw a bunch of wolves get on boats and go towards the aquarium. So, something had to happen, right, that made Abby and her team convinced that they had to get away or that they had to hide out from Ellie, right? I'm thinking that's what we're going to see next season. Now, Ellie has herself a boat and she's heading towards the aquarium. There's quite a bit of time left, so. Ooh, so Ellie washes up on shore and there's a bunch of scars there. Ooh, okay, that was tense for a couple of seconds there, but the village, I guess, is it.

[00:13:07] Ellie's being attacked, so they're going to just leave Ellie alone. Oh, and is that Joel's old gun in the mud there? Okay, so I guess that was just a brief respite until now Ellie's back on her way to the aquarium. Ooh, so she's dried off the revolver, dried off the bullets somehow, and she's still dripping wet, but ooh, this is tense. Ooh, that was a quick double tap from that revolver that Ellie just fired, really. I mean, she got Owen. Ooh, is this woman pregnant and she wanted Ellie to cut her baby out of her? Ooh. Ooh. Ooh, heartbreaking.

[00:13:37] Tommy and Jesse just, so they caught up with her and now we're back to Dina in the theater. I guess they made it back to the theater without an incident. Oh, so they've been found at the theater. Ooh, next season. Wow. Wait. Hey. Oh, so next season we go back to Abby's perspective on day one. I was thinking, oh, no love for Jesse. But then I remembered he wrote that he didn't realize Jesse was dead. Yeah. You know, it still makes me laugh every once in a while when I go back and I think about the voicemail from Steve earlier. He's like, and where are the horses?

[00:14:08] Yeah. We did bring that up. We did get closure on that. Yeah. That was good. I liked we circled back around to that. Yeah. That's great, Steve. All right. Next, next letter here is from Carly Jackson. That was nothing like I expected. I'm not excited about it ending on a cliffhanger, but I do trust the showrunners. So I guess I'll just have to wait until the next season. I really liked that Bella told Dina right away about how easy it was for her to hurt Nora.

[00:14:37] Sharing that showed a level of emotional maturity. I wasn't expecting. Good point. Yeah. Andrea Abarca. I thought Bella was amazing. Their performance when Mel died and then the showdown with Abby. I was like, no, now we have to wait two years. What? Oh, I thought it was a great episode. I watched it with my sister and then she was like, she's getting on that little boat in the storm. What is she thinking? I loved the episode and I thought everyone was amazing in it.

[00:15:07] I see more and more unrest online about shows only going seven or eight episodes and then having to wait such a long time in between. I hope it leads to some changes or something. Yeah. Or at least a couple extra episodes next season. Come on. I bet you we'll get like nine or 10 or eight or nine, something like that. Nine. Ross Began says, amazing episode as a game player. I think they've done a brilliant job in bringing what is narratively a challenging story to structure to the screen.

[00:15:36] And while I haven't agreed with all the changes they've made, I think they've added a sense of freshness and kept us game players guessing a bit, which is nice. It's gutted that we'll have to wait so long for season three. That's how I feel too, Ross. I think Ross wrote into us earlier in this season or on the rewatch about audio description. And I learned a lot. Oh, is that Ross? Ross. Ross, if it wasn't, apologies. But if it was, thank you. Because I think about that a lot, especially in my work.

[00:16:04] Christine Zanner says, I just want that 17 year old who wrote to you to understand how amazing they are. Also, I want that person to know that even though things are extremely fraught and difficult, you're an amazing, extremely amazing person. I wish I could have been as mature as you are when I was your age. Things are obviously extremely hard and you're going to be okay. Better than okay. You're already awesome. Aw, that's nice. Next one here from May Almardini. Oh no, Jesse.

[00:16:30] I was literally just thinking last season they killed off so many people, but I guess this season it's only Joel because it's a big death. For a minute. I thought it was a dream and I couldn't figure out whose dream. Then they had to put day one. Abby had rope marks around her neck. Was she hanging with the scars? Hanging with the scars. That's funny. Yeah. I'm guessing Dina shot her. What the fuck? Do we have to wait two years to find out? How am I not going to get spoiled? Arrr.

[00:17:00] Yeah, that's another thing. Very good catch about the scar on her neck. I wonder how many. Burns. I wonder how many people are going to. Are going to like give in and look up spoilers. Yeah. Sales sales for the games skyrocketed over the course of this season. Yeah. A lot of people jumped onto the game. I bet a lot of people who had been holding out now are going to be like, yeah, whatever.

[00:17:28] I'm just going to learn about it or play the game. Yeah. Matt King again with another piece of feedback. After listening to the podcast, they really need to get the rest of the series filmed ASAP before the actors change too much. Perhaps film season three and four back to back next year or rather than a season four finish with a movie. Perhaps the writers are really slowing everything down because they just don't know where to take the show after the second game has been exhausted.

[00:17:55] Maybe get Benny Hoff and Weiss in to land the finale. Oh, no, no, no. With their track history of working beyond the original material and a big old smiley face emoji at the end of that one. They're not slowing down because they don't know where to take the show. They've said when the game's over, they're done. And they sort of suggested if HBO wanted to continue it with different people, maybe that's a possibility, but Craig Mazin is done.

[00:18:25] But the only thing which I've probably said way too many times is I'm hoping they'll finish the third game by then and then be able to put that one on screen. Is there any confirmation that we are getting a third game? I think it's just rumors and speculation. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I can't. Now when people are talking about, you know, the characters or the individual actors changing too much at between seasons, I can't help but think about stranger things in this upcoming season.

[00:18:50] Yeah, it's going to be, you know, college age kids for excuse me, young adults acting like they're, you know, I just had chat GBT make a stranger things five and it's all these old people. I mean, it's getting to the point where the final season of stranger things is going to be told in a flashback because they're all going to be too old, but they finally did announce it. If you guys didn't know who are listening, it's coming November and it's in three parts and I'm excited.

[00:19:18] The series finale is New Year's Eve. Yeah. And I think it's going to be like two and a half hours or something. Well, it's funny because all these kids they're, they're growing up into adults. So then you got Hopper who like glowed up over the course. Yeah. Okay. Here's a call from Linnea from Sweden. Hello from Stockholm, Sweden. Thank you for an amazing podcast.

[00:19:43] I'm a show only person, but I have just love listening to you guys every week. So I have a few feedback things for this last episode. One, Owen, he kind of looks like a young Troy Baker. Has anyone else noticed that? Oh yeah. Anyway, two, I'm so bummed that we didn't get to see how Ellie got out of the hospital and then also how they got home from the aquarium.

[00:20:13] I mean, how is that even possible during a war? I just, I feel like I needed to know. So bummed Jesse was killed. He, I felt like he was sort of the conscience of the group and now he's gone. I don't know what, where that leaves Ellie. Well, she might be dead anyway. We'll see when the next season comes out. I don't think so, but well, you never know with the show. I really didn't like the scene in the ocean.

[00:20:41] I mean, how does this girl, Ellie, learn how to drive a boat and swim when you're a federal military in the middle of the country? I just, I don't get it. How is it even possible that she knows how to do all these things, even with a backpack and like really heavy clothes and boots on? Hmm. It just didn't work for me. Anyway, I will give you a Swedish pun.

[00:21:11] Maybe you'll have to look it up. So you understand what it means. Here it is. How many people live in Canada? Eight, what? Okay, bye! Oh, that was a good one. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. Thank you, Linnea. As far as how she can swim, I hope it's okay to say in the game, during the whole dinosaur thing, they're actually swimming around a lot.

[00:21:39] And so you sort of understand that Joel taught her to swim. We don't, I don't know if we see him teaching her how to use a motorboat, but they're not too hard to figure out. No, they do mention in the first, in the first season, they do mention of the TV show, Ellie does mention she cannot swim. So that does come up in the show. Uh, it just didn't come up that she was taught to swim in the last five years. Yeah. Joel taught her there's rivers and lakes and stuff.

[00:22:08] Jijo Putia says, I wish they had me more invested than in Abby. I think he's saying he's wish he was more invested in Abby. As of now I hate her and I got away. How many years for a story of someone I hate? Ellie was annoying too. Her and Dina have been a little too nonchalant since they've been in Seattle. I mean, it's supposed to be a war zone, right? Jesse was acting right, walking down the street, alert and ready. And Ellie's just chatting him up, which make, which takes me out of it. Poor Jesse.

[00:22:37] It was weird. It happened so fast that by the time it registered, I was already getting ready for bed hours later. I was like, Oh my God, he's dead. All that being said, I'll be coming back to watch next season for sure. Especially when my favorite podcasters are saying this is one of the best stories ever. Nice. A couple things about her demeanor.

[00:23:01] I've been thinking about that a little bit and why it didn't bother me as much as it bothered you guys and some other people. And I think in part, it's just because I think people, even when they're really going through something, they tend to sort of repress it and not just be in that intensity all the time. You know, they tend to sort of chill out and not just be constantly in that intense emotion.

[00:23:27] And I know I'm like, I try to joke around, you know, like even when you're sick or whatever, you, you know, sit there going, Oh my God, I'm sick. I'm sick. You try to forget about it, you know? So that's, I think that's kind of how I'm receiving why they're kind of joking around and stuff. Hmm. Um, Lanny Gilbert says, I have to say that I disagree with the idea that Ellie should have tried to cut the baby out.

[00:23:53] There was no way it would have been better for anyone involved, for Ellie who has zero medical training to try and figure out where to cut and how deep to cut. Even if she did successfully deliver that baby, who would have been a preemie, then what? It's cold and rainy in Seattle and they have so far to travel. What were they going to feed the baby? How could they have kept it quiet so as not to draw attention from the wolves or the scarred people? As terrible as it was that Ellie didn't try, it was for the best. Cutting the baby out would have been a painful and violent death for the woman and an inevitable death of the baby.

[00:24:24] So I like agree with you, Lanny, but I think for me, it bothers me that Ellie didn't try not for those reasons. Like she didn't reason it out. She was just scared. I think that was what struggled with it. Yeah. Me too. And that's why I wish they just did not add that into the story. It wasn't, it didn't add anything and it was just a fucking bummer. Yeah. I mean, I definitely found myself with an overwhelming sense of, Oh God, please. No, just, Oh God, please. I mean, I just wish it wasn't even in there. Why? What good was it?

[00:24:52] Just made us feel like, Oh God, Ellie sucks in that moment. That's how I felt like you suck. And then, yeah, even if she would have been able to do it, the baby most likely would have died. So, but you're right, Lucy, she wasn't thinking about that. Yeah. I mean, I even said it last time too, and before my internet went out and I got cut from the episode. Um, it, but that, that whole moment just didn't affect me emotionally. I just, it kind of took me out of it. Hmm. Yeah.

[00:25:23] Okay. Becky Anderson, more amazing acting from all. I got so excited getting to see the stadium set up. I was like, I've been there. I mean, I know it's not the same one, but still super cool. I've said it all my feedback this season, but it's worth mentioning again. They gave us so much incredible post apocalypse scenery. And I am here for it. I don't play the game. So everything that happens is a surprise. I feel for Ellie. She didn't intend to kill Owen and Mel. He drew first.

[00:25:53] What was she supposed to do? Abby showing up at the end was a surprise. We know she doesn't kill Ellie, right? So was that final shot for Tommy or was it Dina popping out and taking a shot at Abby? So many questions. And it's a bit annoying. We have to wait so long for the next season, but I'm going to have faith. It will be worth the wait. Hope you're right. All right.

[00:26:20] Amber Lovo that ending what in the downtime between the next season. I need to watch someone play the game. LOL. There's definitely playthroughs online on YouTube. Ellie definitely cannot follow directions and puts herself and others in danger. Do I agree with her mission? Yeah. Do I agree with her going rogue consistently? No. I love that. I love the show's ability to show that no one is all good or all bad.

[00:26:47] I swear everyone here is a gray character except for maybe Dina. She's perfect. I have so many thoughts. Not sure I can organize them all coherently at the moment, but that episode was fantastic and I can't wait to find out what happens next. If you do go on YouTube to watch a playthrough, if you type no commentary, you can find ones where people aren't talking through it. I tend to like those better unless you know the person you know they're going to add something good.

[00:27:14] You can also find some really bad ass players who just totally kick ass and it's really impressive for someone who's played the game and been killed many, many, many times. I wanted to mention too, Linnea from Sweden said that Jesse was the conscious of the group and that just got me thinking about how anyone, whoever gets called out on The Walking Dead dies. Oh yes. Oh yes. Yeah. In fact, Jason, I'd be careful even just saying it. I think your days are numbered now. I'm not the conscious of this group. I think that's you.

[00:27:45] I know you've said it twice now, so you know. More important is who's always moralizing. Oh shit. No. Oh boy. I'm having trouble. Okay. Here is Archmaester Renny. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. That's my response to this last episode of season two and the cliffhanger ending. And now I'm facing a major decision.

[00:28:13] Do I watch a game playthrough since I don't play myself? Or do I wait for season two to come out? Help me decide. And now for a small reality check. Point one. Shimmer is not okay. If Shimmer was left. There, you know, there seemed to be lots of grass and stuff for Shimmer to crop. But there's no water. There's no water.

[00:28:42] Shimmer is not okay. And Jason, I know what happens in the game. I heard that. But in the show, Shimmer is not okay. So, and point number two. Allie couldn't have kept that premature baby alive even if she had managed to perform that cesarean. There was nothing to feed that premature baby. There was no way to get it back to Jackson where people might have been able to take care of it.

[00:29:09] So, that was a doomed enterprise from the start. Doomed. Doomed may be the best way to describe everybody in this show. Bye, Jessie. I have a theory, a totally unspoiled theory about that ending. I don't think that Ellie was saying no to Abby.

[00:29:36] I think she was saying no to either Tommy or Dina who had a gun on Abby. So, I think that's a big open question about when we get back to that section in season three, what is actually happening there. Yeah. Ouch, ouch, ouch. That's all I have to say. About Shimmer, maybe the storm. I was going to say the same thing. It's been raining on and off.

[00:30:06] Maybe that would help. I'm sure there's puddles or something. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. He's inside though. What are your thoughts on when people are asking whether or not they should watch a playthrough or wait? I mean, I think it's fine either way. Yeah. Like, I think if you do, I would watch it from the beginning so you can really get a sense of the game version of the characters. But if you don't feel like it, fine. I don't think. Yeah, no. But I mean, you'll definitely see that it's a different beast. Yeah, right.

[00:30:35] You know, the TV, the game is a different beast than the TV show and you'll, maybe you'll have different insights into the show based on what you're going to see in the game. You know, your choice. It's like that same question about whether people should read the Walking Dead comic. I mean, I usually was like, well, I love that comic. So if you want to read it, you'll have a good experience. And same thing with the game. And that was the comparison I was just going to make too. I don't think it's, it's no different than reading a book or a comic before you see the adaptation.

[00:31:03] And the cut scenes of everything in The Last of Us are so cinematic that you'd be basically watching a movie. Yeah. Like a movie version. A lot of the playthroughs. Yeah. Or if you just watch the cut scenes, you skip a lot of the. Yeah. You can probably find murder. Yeah. Yeah. You can find, I betcha on YouTube where it just has the minimal amount to get the story across. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Maria Lawson says, wow, that was brutal.

[00:31:30] Bella's weeping after killing Abby's friends was really incredible and gave such a sense of how desolate their character was feeling. Jesse gone in an instant and yet another death caused by this revenge quest. If Ellie survives, will Tina be able to forgive her? Will Ellie be able to forgive herself? This episode had the most gameplay feeling out of all the episodes for me. Crouching behind things, climbing to get into buildings, clearing buildings and getting swept up in the water. We're all how I imagine the game feels. Yeah, pretty much.

[00:31:59] Without spoiling anything, can you tell me if Abby was a character that was playable in the game? No, I can't without spoiling anything. It almost seemed like her crew was planning to dip out on Seattle when Ellie found them. But maybe I didn't understand what they were saying. I'm so annoyed that we're ending of this level of cliffhanger only because I can't figure out how I'm going to make it two more years without being spoiled on how it all ends. Good luck.

[00:32:25] We'll have a lot of other shows to talk about, but yeah, the spoiler thing, I don't know. That's true. Mark McBurney says, a solid finale and a decent build to the theater showdown. I think this season ended where all gamers thought it would, minus the flashback. Didn't really care for Jesse in the game or the show really till this episode. Great performance by him. And as a parent, his anger towards Ellie and instinct to protect was spot on. And I do not agree with her standing by and just letting a baby die, especially seeing if she's going to be a daddy herself.

[00:32:55] Looking forward to seeing the Abbey side next season. And my Caitlin Dever recommendation is the true crime series Unbelievable. It certainly is that. I think I've heard good things about that. Unbelievable also, it has Merit Weaver in it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, check that out. Kara. We have, I've heard of that one. We did a podcast on great true crime shows and I think Kara brought that one up. It's a good one. Hmm. I know. Thank you. All right. Luke Dentler says, Hey guys, Luke from Michigan.

[00:33:23] Just wanted to say, I thought this was a good season. I don't like the cliffhanger, but I'm not a big fan of them in general. And when the brat showed up and Jesse ran out and just, my, and just fell. My heart ached because he just found out about being a co-parent with Ellie, but was, was he wasn't told, but he found out for him to just die. That broke my heart.

[00:33:45] Also when Ellie found the two from Abby's group, when that girl was dying, why didn't she use that leverage saying I will cut out your baby, but you need to tell me where she's at. I don't know. I guess in the moment I would be freaking out too. Also Bella Ramsey. Oh my goodness. They are amazing. Just the emotion. They portrayed the screaming, the crying. It sounds so real. They're so convincing. It's amazing. Also I'm voice to texting. So some of this comes out wonky. I apologize.

[00:34:16] That's all I got. I want to say, don't get bit, but I should say, don't eat. Don't eat. We don't eat. We eat. I, you think, okay. That made so much sense about the, uh, the voice, the tab. Some of it you're like, I'm just gonna. Comma somewhere. There's no punctuation. Um, man, Luke, that would have been pretty freaking dark if Ellie would have said, all right, I'll cut it out if you tell me where Abby is. And then she told her and then Ellie walks away.

[00:34:45] That would have been very dark. Oh gosh. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Here is Alma. Hey, the cast of us crew. I just finished listening to the finale podcast. And, um, um, thank you, Jason, for giving us a little extra time.

[00:35:05] I needed, I, I know I needed a little extra time digesting and, um, what, what all transpired on the finale. Um, yeah, it does seem kind of weird that I'll, that next season will be. All Abby's POV. Um, but we'll see. We'll see. Gotta, I gotta keep an open mind about that. I'm not a game player.

[00:35:30] So, but it's funny because, um, through this episode, every time Jesse said something about needing to get out of there because he was going to be a father and he needed to live. He couldn't die. I was like, Oh my God, it's the kiss of death. Jesse's going to die. And it was funny because last week I had asked my son cause he is a player. I asked him, I'm like, is Jesse going to die? Is Dina going to die? I have a feeling these two are going to die, but just tell me. Yes.

[00:35:59] He wouldn't tell me, but, um, so I was, I was kind of, um, uh, sad to see Jesse go. I thought he was a good character. Um, well, I, I felt like he was going to go. But I didn't expect him to go out. So suddenly. And so soon I expected him to at least die in like the next season or something. Um, likewise with Tommy, all I gotta say is he better not die.

[00:36:30] And, um, no time soon anyways. Um, but, um, okay. Back to the episode. Yes. Um, I felt also the island scene was a little out of place. Um, the episode in general felt a little choppy. Um, I, I do say that I did get emotional with the whole, um, Mel scene and, um, and Ellie really not trying to get that baby out.

[00:36:59] Um, it kinda, I, I still get upset about it right now as we speak, but, um, and I, I, I was kinda glad to hear that that didn't happen in the game. Um, so it's just kind of, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm a little confused by the, the showrunners choice of doing that. So I feel like something's gonna come in the future of their story.

[00:37:26] They have a story planned for us is what I think. And we just have to be patient enough to see it play out. But in general, I really enjoyed the season. Um, what I see with this show is that it, it, it really, um, plays with our emotions and, um, it, it like devastates me one episode.

[00:37:52] And angers me the next and, and saddens me. And, you know, it just, it's just a ball of emotions that I go through with watching the show. And, and I've really been enjoying the cast and all the different hosts. You guys have really done this show a lot of justice and thank you for that. And I will catch you guys next season. Hopefully it will not be two years. I refuse to believe it's going to be two years, but, um, we shall see. We shall see.

[00:38:21] When you accept that it'll be 13 years, two years. Sounds wonderful. Yeah. It's all about perspective. Thank you. All right. Continuing on, uh, Deborah Omer. Hi, the cast of us team. They perfectly positioned last week's episode as a nice reprieve before this one. I'm glad they didn't gloss over Ellie's actions towards Nora and that she opened up to Dina about everything.

[00:38:46] However, it's clear that Dina was shaken by Joel's actions and their impact with what Ellie is going, is doing too. Uh, the tension between them and Jesse is thick. Jesse was able to express his feelings about the situation to Ellie though. The rest of the episode is a heart wrenching rollercoaster ride of Ellie's relentless pursuit of vengeance ending in carnage and tears. This was incredibly sad to watch, especially for all parties involved.

[00:39:11] The fade, the black cliffhanger followed by Abby's flashback to her Seattle day one was utterly shocking. I didn't see that coming. The wait for season three is going to be excruciating. Y'all take care and have a good one. Mm hmm. You know, I do love that. They actually, I think the, they did do that very well. That transition from the gunshot to Seattle day one with Abby's perspective. I mean, yeah, that was the same.

[00:39:38] If you're playing the game, you had the same experience of what the fuck? What? You know, it, it was, it hits you. They did a good job of that. Yeah. Interesting. It was almost describing all like, yeah, I I'm watching this. I feel angry and sad. And then here Deborah saying it's carnage and tears. I'm like, why are we watching this again? My, my biggest complaint. She was nowhere near angry and vengeful enough.

[00:40:08] Yeah. It wasn't uncomfortable enough to watch. Yeah, exactly. Lisa Edmondson Walker says what a rollercoaster ride. I was heartbroken about Jesse and really sad about Mel and her baby. What else could Ellie do other than shoot with Owen drawing on her? Yeah, I don't, nothing else. I don't think I'm not sure Mel's baby would have survived even with the C-section, but that was so sad to watch. The scar child was really good at looking empty and soulless when Ellie got to the shore and then was being strung up.

[00:40:35] I'm going to save from them by the village attack for now. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting how people are saying that felt out of place and I kind of felt like that too, but I was listening to the HBO podcast and there, I think the point was to show, uh, because Ellie had just wanted to help one of the Sarah fight kids earlier. And now she's comes into confrontation with another one. Who's just first reaction is, yeah, this is what we do. We kill any intruders and it's just sad all the way around that.

[00:41:03] That's the situation, but very true to life. You know, actually, I just, uh, if you don't mind, this is, uh, like right after when we talked about it, uh, last week, the game, I, I was still mulling things over and I kind of, I was having one of those shower thoughts and I, something kind of dawned on me about the Sarah fight. So one thing that we were talking about, uh, in the last episode was about how there was a, a, a black feel your love woman versus the other feel your love woman.

[00:41:32] And we were saying, okay, maybe it's a representative, but I started thinking about what we may be seeing with the Sarah fights are kind of like two very specific factions that they've touched on, which we did touch on before where you got the one, uh, trying to leave the war. They're just kind of wanted to be peaceful. They know they're not necessarily religious zealots and they're trying to get the hell out. And then you have this other faction who seem to be the religious zealots. But I think what we're also seeing is the, the difference in the two different children, right?

[00:42:00] You saw the, the little girl wanting a hammer and it seemed like more as a protection sort of thing versus this child that we see on the island. Who's just like Caligula giving the thumbs down. Right. Um, I think that may be even more of the, the dynamic that we're supposed to be getting out of this, that they're, you know, zealotry versus people just trying to flee.

[00:42:20] And the WLF they're killing the nice ones, you know, because they happen to be trespassing. Um, so it's almost like they're killing the wrong ones in some way, making this that much worse, you know? Um, I don't know. It's just something again, shower thought. So they did wanted to share it.

[00:42:37] They did dwell on that about like when Isaac was torturing one saying, you know, some of your people don't think that she's a God or whatever. Exactly. And, uh, and I think that dynamic could be at play. And maybe that's why we saw the two representations. And I think he calls him, called them heretics or something. Yeah. Heretics. Right. So that really made a point that yes, there's a division in the ranks there. And also I think it is just this little kid has that first reaction and it's because, you know,

[00:43:07] any kid raised up where that's what you're taught, then that's what you're going to do. Cause you're taught that, you know, and it's, it's too bad. And it just reminds me of how around the world there's kids who are taught to kill because that's the culture that they grow up in and they're given guns and everything like that. My apologies for the detour. No, I think you're, no, I think it's a good point. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought it up. Uh, Lisa goes on seeing the placid Seattle water with big waves was interesting and visiting landmarks there as well.

[00:43:34] My best friend lives near the wheel and aquarium. That's cool. It's going to be a long, painful wait to see what happened after the shot in the theater and what happens with Abby starting on her day one as a non gamer. I'm tempted to try finding a playthrough video online. Can't wait to hear the coverage on the podcast. Uh, you know what? I'll try to find a good one and put it in the show notes for people. Remind myself.

[00:43:58] I think that will be well liked. Yeah. You know, I will say, I'm sure you'll find a, a much better one that I'm going to suggest, but one that I do really enjoy. And it's from when the game first came out was, uh, done by Casina Caradona. That's the face model of Dina or Dina in the video game. Yeah. And, uh, she's just really funny cause she's not a gamer originally and her playing through this and seeing herself in it.

[00:44:24] Just her face was, it was just really funny. It's adorable. And she also reviewed the show. She watched the show every episode and, uh, her review of the final episode was, uh, similar to my take on, on that. So interesting.

[00:44:38] It's a fun watch. It's a very fun. She's really expressive and she's kind of got an activist soul and she's a poet. She's really interesting person. And when she first sees herself in the game, she's like losing her shit. Oh my God. Amazing. Uh, Jess Jones says, dear Jason, Lucy, Eric, and guest hosts, I'm back.

[00:45:07] After listening to my feedback being read aloud, Pelani's spelling reading was excellent. By the way, you really portrayed my thoughts as well. Thank you. And then rereading my sign off because I was like, oh man, flippy flops. WTF. I realized I really do need to wear my reading glasses when writing these things. It was supposed to say, I'll be on a boat wearing my flippy flops. A Lonely Island reference. I got you, Jess. Um, but I see my notes and I spelled it out as red, which is all on me and totally wrong.

[00:45:36] Though, anyways, I'm still really jet lagged and don't have anything witty or insightful for you guys this week. But of course I wanted to write in for the finale because it was so good and such a great season overall. And damn, what a cliffhanger. But also RIP, Jesse. Thanks for another great pod season on a show I would never, I would have never even known about if it wasn't for Jason and Podcastica in the first place. Love to you guys and all you do. Your favorite broadcast cast member and resident lurker, Jessica Jones. What sign off?

[00:46:06] You know, seriously, when, when, when Pialani read, uh, floopy floops, or I saw that in the letter and I remember just like, well, maybe that's what they call them wherever she's from. Cause I mean, people, people have different names from like in Hawaii. It's slippers. I mean, sometimes it's flip flops. I remember growing up, you used to call them thongs. Certainly not calling it that anymore. That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah. All right. Here's a call from NWIN.

[00:46:31] Hello, my lovelies. I can't believe we've come to the end of season two of The Last of Us. It has felt like a bit of a marathon in terms of fantastic TV shows with White Lotus, Yellow Jackets, Andor, and The Last of Us. It has been an awesome first start to the year. And this final episode I did really enjoy. I've really enjoyed listening to your different opinions on it, um, in the podcast that thank you for that. It's really cool to hear different ideas.

[00:47:00] As a non-gamer, I did really enjoy it. Um, I have to disagree with you, Lucy, on the aquarium thing, although I do completely respect your opinion. I used to work in an aquarium and so I kind of love them. And wherever I go in the world, I try and find an aquarium and check it out. It's pretty cool. That's okay. We used to have a guy who would go into the shark tank and into the eel tank. We had these two meter long, long finned eels, and they would go in and feed the eels and the sharks by hand. It was pretty cool. You'd love it, Lucy.

[00:47:30] But I am with you on the whole Craig versus Craig thing. I never understood why Americans say Craig instead of Craig. I don't say Craig, I say Craig. I actually think it might be because of the Scottish or Irish way of saying it. So you say Craig to rhyme with vague, like we do. Craig, vague, yeah. But they hear Craig, which is in your accent. So maybe that's where it came from. Maybe. Anyway, moving on.

[00:47:55] Allie with the caesarean section attempt or non-attempt. I can completely understand why she freaked out about that. I feel like I'd give it a pretty good go. But then I've had one myself, so I kind of know where the scar is. But it also, for me, didn't quite fit in with how she's fascinated by, I don't know, when she was in that basement with the infected and she kind of cut into his face.

[00:48:24] She seems like she's not squeamish about stuff, but maybe it was just the humanity side of it and the fact that it reminded her so much of her situation with Dina. The whole Scar Island thing, I kind of, I thought it was tense and creepy and it was awesome seeing how extreme they are in terms of just grabbing whichever interloper comes onto the island and gutting them. And especially with a little kid, that was super creepy.

[00:48:50] But I also knew she's kind of got plot armour and nothing's going to happen and it was just a bit far-fetched. And the most far-fetched part was that she washed up on this island and so did her boat that had capsized and was filled with water and would have completely sunk. Just washed up right next to her and the motor still worked. That didn't really sit with me. But anyway, she got there in the end. That's a different boat.

[00:49:14] And the ending of the whole episode, I thought it was really cool to see the two adversaries come together. And what a cliffhanger. I mean, a shot ringing out and then just going to black. We don't know what's happened. You guys probably do because you've played the game, but I don't. And my suspicion is that potentially Dina has come and shot Abby or this mystery character that we don't know about. I don't know. Someone else might be there who did that.

[00:49:43] I thought it was a great episode. I really enjoyed it. And it was just such a good lead up to how long two-year wait that we have to deal with next. Thank you so much for everything you do. Wow. I really went long. Thanks for playing. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. That's fantastic. Love that one. You think people will be surprised when they find out Joel's the one that came in and saved Abby? Zombie Joel. Oh, yeah, definitely. It's the first force goes Joel.

[00:50:11] First actual zombie in The Last of Us is Joel. Oh, you know what was something we didn't talk about this week at all? There were no infected on this finale. Oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't even notice. Yeah, another pod mentioned it. And I was like, damn it, you're right. There weren't any. Which one's that, people? You should be listening to that one, whichever one it is. I don't know. I'd say Ellie's heart was infected.

[00:50:42] It was, I think, House of R mentioned it. Well, think about what Anwen was just talking about, you know, how that boat would be capsized, would be at the bottom of the sound, yada, yada, yada. See, I think Ellie in this show has Wile E. Coyote plot armor in that she's, it's like, if she doesn't look down and see that she's really high, she won't fall down. She's so dumb, the boat will stay afloat. That's what I'm saying. Oh, no, it's a bad idea. It's not nice.

[00:51:13] All right. Matt King, a good final episode, but not as great as the season one finale. Overall, a good season, but not quite the level of season one. I don't think it helps that it's just seven episodes after a long break and likely to be a few more years before the next season. It's a shame to lose Jesse so cheaply, but probably inevitable when we seem to suddenly get his backstory this week. It would be nice to see the TV show break away more from the expectations of gamers and go its own way.

[00:51:44] And it did. In comparison to other shows, they've had a second series this year, such as Severance and particularly Andor. It comes in a little below those two. Andor delivered so much more, having five extra episodes helped. Anyhow, the end tees it up for the Abby show when it eventually returns in a few years. It will be interesting to see how the viewing numbers hold up. Other podcasts discussing the finale and whole season were not blown away with it, but still enjoyed it.

[00:52:12] And a lot of online comments have been a bit mixed, though generally positive and not just because of Joel. That's good to hear. Yeah, I mean, Andor, good grief. They finally released how much it cost. Yeah. $650 million. Right. Total for the season? Yeah. I think it's for the whole series. So that's 24 episodes. Oh, was it for the whole series? I thought it was just for this season. I think so. I'm not positive.

[00:52:42] Either way. It's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad, yeah. And you could see it all up on the screen and done so well. So I think that's unfortunately, that's sometimes what it takes. Yeah. That's $650 million. When you've got the money and the writing, that's chef's kiss. I never say that, but in this case. That's that Disney money for you. Yeah, but you don't always get the writing to go along with it. You know? True. Very, very true. Terry from Huntington Beach.

[00:53:08] I respect that the showrunners are staying true to the game, but this is a show. This is a show. This season's finale sucked. It reminded me of last season's House of the Dragon finale. A good lead up with no payoff. I think it's the fault of the pencil pushers at HBO. Like in House of the Dragon, maybe an epic battle was cost prohibited. At least give us some infected action to hold us over for the long off season. There we go. Somebody else who noticed there was no... Here you go.

[00:53:38] And that side quest to Skar Island was pointless. The ending left me with the same feeling when Negan bashed Abraham and Glenn. I now have to wait for the next season to find out what happened. But this season still has been excellent. That's contradictory. I'll be watching next season. I'm interested in Abby's point of view. You, True Blood, Game of Thrones, Sopranos, Better Call Saul, Schitt's Creek, Parks and Rec, Yellow Jackets, and The White Lotus.

[00:54:06] It's fun to see actors from some of my favorite shows finding a home on the show. Podcastica crew, I'll see you for good show. Maybe the new season of Dexter. Oh, so there's actors who are in all those shows who were in The Last of Us, I guess. I mean, there's a couple of them that I can pick up. Schitt's Creek, obviously, is Catherine O'Hara. Yeah, Yellow Jackets, Melanie Linsky. Yep. Nick Offerman, Parks and Rec. White Lotus. Frank.

[00:54:36] Yeah, that's good. Yeah. True Blood is, oh, what is, oh, Tara. Oh, Tara. What's her name? No. Tara, yeah, thank you. Wait, yes. Tara from True Blood. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, Carlos Frederick says, ugh. Next? No, I'm just kidding. Hi, beautiful people. This eulogy is dedicated to all that was lost, including my expectations for the season finale. No.

[00:55:04] I was ready for a full-on stressful hour, and it really fell short for this non-gamer. Not to mention, it took a bit to figure out what they did with the ending. It would have been good if this were a regular show during the season, not the finale. Ellie was so hell-bent on revenge that it truly clouded how she did not care that the people around her were in clear danger. I mean, that's kind of the point. Like, she's fixated on revenge. Even that small scene of Abby confirmed that I still don't like her.

[00:55:29] The show was kind of all over the place, literally all over the place with so many things going on, and it was extremely dark. I'm old, so my eyesight sucks as it is. R.I.P. to the hot young guys. Oh, literally dark. Hot young guys. Owen, Jesse, Mel, Baby, and maybe Ellie, unless Dina from upstairs shuts her down before Abby gets the shot. I hope my family here can help me process what should have been the best hour and season finale. Others will not agree, but that's why we're here for trauma bonding.

[00:55:58] P.S. This episode on top of finding out Wheel of Time is not coming back was disappointing, but at least Yellow Jackets is coming back. Moi. Bye. Yeah, I mean, I hope you enjoyed our podcast on it. I thought it was cool that we had some differing opinions that kind of matched up the response from the audience. I mean, I thought it was a stressful hour. I was stressed out because I disliked it so much. All right. Here is Robin. Hey, y'all.

[00:56:28] It's me. I wasn't really sure I was going to have anything to say about this episode because I'm so mad at Jesse for just charging out there into the theater without stopping to look, assess the situation a little bit. It seems so out of character for him. I'm so mad at Jesse for the show. But I guess Ellie's got everybody all in an uproar and doing things impulsively that they wouldn't ordinarily do. You know, the death of Mel probably was one of the worst things that I've ever seen on TV, really.

[00:56:57] Just so, oh, God, so awful, so tragic, so terrible for both her and Ellie. Because I think the whole point of that was that Ellie realizes that she doesn't have the internal fortitude or strength to do what needs to be done in a moment like that. All she ever goes on is her impulse. Whatever she ends up doing, it's just because it's not thought through. It's not from a place of strength.

[00:57:22] It's from a place of just being, you know, a contrarian, ornery. And so because of that, I don't think that Ellie should have tried. They shouldn't have, you know, they have written in that she should try to do this C-section. Because, you know, her weeping at the end showed so much how she realized herself, I think, at that moment that she doesn't have any internal fortitude. And that was kind of a shock to her.

[00:57:49] But then what would they have done with a newborn, you know, a premature newborn? That kind of complication in the story just wouldn't have gone anywhere. It would have, I don't know how they could have worked around that unless they had her do it and then have the baby die right away, which that would have been even worse. Definitely even worse. Is her relationship with Dina going to be over? I'm a little bit worried about it.

[00:58:14] You know, Dina, very looking at her, looking at her very askance when Ellie was telling her about what Joel did and seeing that Ellie really, really had changed. You know, after killing Nora, she was really, really a lot different. And then with Jesse dying, is Dina going to really ever be able to forgive Ellie for bringing them into it? Even though she, you know, he voted no, they still came.

[00:58:41] He and Tommy still came to rescue her and for really what's kind of a pointless revenge trip. And then, oh, I forgot, Abby's neck also had, you know, a noose mark around it. Was that where she was when Isaac couldn't find her and she somehow managed to get away or maybe, I don't know, maybe she was in another area and they were hanging her and the bell alarm rescued her too? I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what they do with that.

[00:59:10] But as far as who got shot, can they really kill Ellie? I guess the point I think of the story is to show how parallel she and Abby really are, how much of a killer she becomes, how much like Joel she really is. So if they kill her, is there a story? And who does the shooting? Does Abby shoot Ellie and she lives, she's just wounded? Does Tommy shoot? Does Dina come out and shoot?

[00:59:35] It'll be interesting to see in the far, far future what happens. I was really feeling kind of like, okay, it's not going to be too terribly long because the last time, you know, all our shows were, you know, delayed this go around because of the strikes and they don't have that. But then I saw an article that said that Mason hasn't even finished writing the scripts for the series and they're not going to even start filming until 2027.

[01:00:05] So I guess we just need to put it out of our mind and just wait and hope for the best. Hopefully it won't take too terribly long. It's been great. Love talking to you. I don't have a pun this week. Oh, I guess we'll talk again soon when the rewatch starts. I'm not sure what the next installment of the podcast will be, but I'm looking forward to it. Love you guys. Talk to you soon. Thanks, Robin. Robin has a lot of questions, but we should, I mean, we could just answer them all, but that would be no fun.

[01:00:37] There are a lot of questions though. Yeah. That's keep everyone coming back. She is very observant though. That's what I will, I will, I will leave with. Yelani Rex says, do they need one more to wrap up season two for non game players? At the end of episode seven, I don't really care about watching Abby's storyline. I had to remind myself how evil and focused Ellie was as she tracked, tortured and killed Nora in episode five.

[01:01:03] Ellie was completely, a completely broken human by the end of episode seven. She endured all these video games, challenges and torture driven by vengeance to get to the whale wheel. But Bella's performance and commitment to this performance, excellent acting. They showed an incredibly mature emotional range. When Jesse showed up to help Dina and Ellie, I knew he wouldn't make it. Damn it. Did Abby kill Tommy too? Bitch. Bitch. The episode had so many story nuggets and plot points that were compelling.

[01:01:32] Jesse revealing that he voted no. Jesse dying. Ellie almost drowning a few times. The creepy cult child giving the command to gut Ellie. Ellie killing Abby's friends, Owen and Mel, and not being able to save the baby. But I still don't really care about watching season three. I didn't get enough Isaac to understand why the battle war was about to happen. Why did Abby and her besties break off from Isaac? I don't care. Maybe I need to rewatch episode seven. Let me do a rewatch and examine the who is my community theme a little more closely.

[01:02:02] Hmm. On the podcast, Craig Mazin said that the show will eventually answer what's going on between the Seraphites and the wolves, how that started, who is the prophet, which I think is interesting. Where was Abby? And why does Isaac think Abby's the future of the WLF? So those are some things, those are some questions he knows we have and says will be answered. Just, and, and I do want to, I just want to keep reiterating to everybody who's like,

[01:02:29] doesn't want to see Abby's story or side of things is not looking forward to it. Neither did I. And hers is my favorite part of the game story. Mm-hmm. So just going to throw that out there. No spoilers. Just hers is my favorite part. You'll enjoy it. I mean, also though, you don't like how they do Ellie in the game. So there's no guarantees. This, even in the show, I don't like how they do it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[01:02:58] You're a hundred percent. You're a hundred percent correct. If they can replicate the game or get anywhere close to it, then it's going to be really interesting. I'm hopeful. Me as am I, as am I. All right. Jennifer ring them. I'm trying to remember the last time I felt this much anger at a main character who I want to love. Why didn't she try to perform the C-section? Come on, Ellie.

[01:03:21] You don't get to play with people's lives, run around shooting people and beating them with iron poles and then chicken out when it comes to saving a baby's life. After calling Jesse a hypocrite for not saving the scar kid. No, I said. I said. And that makes me also direct my anger at Seth. He is a former police officer. He gives a big speech about how they should go after Joel's killers and then secretly and quietly sends two teenage girls off on their own to most likely get killed.

[01:03:50] He at least could have lived up to his own words and gone with them. That's a good point. I mean, to be fair. Well, he addressed it. He got shot in the. In the. But he is sending friendly fire. Teenage girls off. That's kind of when you put it that way. It doesn't sound. Well, it's so great. They made a big point of him giving Ellie the rifle and you never see it again. Chekhov's gun never reappeared. So I guess. Chekhov's rolling in his grave. Yeah, absolutely. Where are we?

[01:04:19] Seth gone with her. And then the cliffhanger. I don't mind one in a midseason finale, but hey, when we have to wait years, although they can't kill Ellie, right? I'm confused what the day one scene was or when it takes place. I'm sure it was a good episode, but I just finished and I'm mad. Ha ha. Maybe I'll have more insight after listening to the podcast. I will say I like hearing Bella at the end when they said Ellie came back and told Dina what she did to Nora because she wanted Dina to reject her. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[01:04:50] She said they said I don't recall that. Yeah. All right. Here's a call from Renee. Hi, Jason. Hi, Lucy. Hi, Eric. I'm so happy to hear your voice on the podcast. I'm so grateful that you're doing well. I have definitely been praying for you and I thank God that everything is going great. And we are definitely touching and agreeing that you're going to be cancer free. So let me get to the finale.

[01:05:18] I cannot believe that it's the finale. I'm like, Wendy, I did not know it was seven episodes. How are we only getting seven episodes? Like I am so this just these episodes are throwing me off on all the shows. It's they it's like what is I don't know what's going on. Like it makes no sense. Six episodes, seven episodes, eight episodes. What is going on? I respect the fact that the actors and actresses, they're tired.

[01:05:48] You know, it's hard work. I do understand that. But we need a little bit more. Please. The finale was it was I. I'm just going to pause. I think it's about the financing, right? It's got to be about a money thing more than anything. Why they only do for it for why they're taking so long to get us the next season.

[01:06:11] Like and also maybe like if streaming is the main thing they're worried about and they want to string us along for as long as possible to keep us subscribed. Then they just spread the story out over longer than have it all in one year. I think that might be part of it. Maybe. It wasn't good. It was I. I just expected more. I really I don't know what I expected. Of course, I'm not a you know, I don't play play game play.

[01:06:39] I have never played the game and I don't play video games. That's just not my thing. I'm a gardener. I like to work in the garden. I like plants and flowers. Good for you. That is so much better. I don't have anything to do with playing video games. I'm just joking. But I don't play. They make gardening video games. Yeah. Plants vs. Zombies. Didn't know what to expect. And I didn't did not realize that they were going to cut to black and then they're just going to show Abby.

[01:07:04] And now we're going to get Abby's what what I guess what happened before she went and found Joe. I really don't care. Like because I really am not invested in Abby. I think because of course I haven't watched it the new season because it hasn't came out yet. But I just don't feel like I'm invested in Abby. Like I am so invested in A. Oh, I love that. I love I love them. I love them so much. I am so invested in A.

[01:07:32] Oh, I feel so bad for that little baby because she has gotten herself in the conundrum. Like she really wants vengeance. And then she doesn't want vengeance. Once she killed once she killed the man and then the girl by mistake. It was like that little girl was so heartbroken. She was so hurt. Now, before when she killed the other girl, Nora, before that, I think that she was just numb. But she did say it didn't bother her.

[01:08:02] But I guess it did bother her like Jason was saying. But this one here, it was like this baby, she's going to have to choose. And I just, like I said, she got herself in a conundrum. I don't know how she's going to get out of it. She has made so many poor choices when she can just turn back. But like y'all said, it does not make for good television. But I just feel so bad for that baby. My heart goes out to her, to them. I'm sorry. And now that Jessie's gone, and it's like, Jessie, I knew you was a goner.

[01:08:30] I knew you was dying when you said that you had to live. It's like, sir, you're a red shirt. You dead. It's over with. It's a wrap. And now that's going to drive her crazy. That poor little baby. That's all I can say, that poor little baby. I just feel so bad for Elle. But I will see you guys. I will talk to you guys. Because the Walking Dead Rewatch is getting ready to start back. And I cannot wait. So I will talk to you guys later. Peace and love.

[01:09:00] Bye. Peace. Peace and love, Renee. I love that so much. I know. I think you started that, Renee. She probably knows. About not being invested in Abby, I mean, that's kind of the point for me of why this is such a great story. Because we're always in our own tribe, and we care about the people that we know. And it's easy to see any antagonist or anyone else who's not in the tribe as other and not worth our time.

[01:09:30] And that's how conflict happens so easily. Because you just think, I don't know them. Fuck them. And the gift of this story is to get to shift over to the perspective of the other side and get to know them. I just love that so much about the story. That's why I love the story. I like that you said conflict. Because all I could think of when I'm hearing Renee talking about this, I'm like, oh, you're going to be so conflicted next season. You're going to feel so conflicted because you're not going to want to like this person. And you won't. I mean, you won't for a while.

[01:10:00] Yeah, you might not. You might. Never know. All right. Alicia Stout. So I didn't love the end fading to black and jumping backwards to Seattle day one as it left me a little bit confused. Then after watching the making of at the end, I get why they did it. Now we wait. Who knows how long before we get to see what happens to Ellie and Abby story. Please, the last of us. Don't wait until episode four to tell us what happens with Ellie.

[01:10:28] Would not at all surprise me if they killed off Ellie like Joel and the show goes in a different direction. But we shall see. Also, Abby is a shit for killing yet another father, especially this father, Jesse, since he will never get to meet his baby. I hate her character even more now. Abby actually terrifies me. She's so violent and brutal. Please, someone take her down. Ellie's emotions after shooting Mel was difficult to watch. Bella was incredible here.

[01:10:57] You could feel every ounce of pain and guilt they were carrying. That moment with Mel begging her to save the baby. Jeez, just absolutely heartbreaking. I can't imagine being in that situation, young and scared, not knowing what to do and having to live with the weight of both mother and child gone afterwards. And what is wild is this episode had zero infected and I was still on the edge of my seat the entire time.

[01:11:25] The tension, the raw emotion, the noose. I think I held my breath through most of it. Here's my last pun for season two. Aww. I gave all my dead batteries away today, free of charge. I like that. That's a good one. All right, that's a good one. I like that. Good night and thank you, Jason, Ben, Eric, and Lucy for always keeping us informed and entertained. Thanks, Alicia. Thank you.

[01:11:55] You are welcome. That's a good pun. I'm glad you're still around and listening and writing in, Alicia. All right. Now we have a call from Charlotte Bailey, who I think is a first time caller. Hi, Jason, Lucy, Eric, and Ben, and any other hosts that might be there this week. First time caller, long time listener. This is Charlotte Bailey. I just have a few notes. So, okay. So firstly, Ellie not cutting the baby out is honestly so understandable to me.

[01:12:23] I cannot even imagine trying to attempt that. Like, this is going to sound horribly messed up. But I think it is, unless you're a surgeon and you're used to this kind of thing, I feel like it's much easier to, like, shoot someone than to physically cut someone open to try to save something inside of them. Like, that is, that's horrifying. Especially because you don't know.

[01:12:53] I think this baby is severely premature. So, you have no idea what you're going to find in there. Like, that, I cannot imagine actually the act of slicing someone open and trying to save the baby. So, I don't blame Ellie there. That's, like, giving me the ick. But I also imagine if she had gone through with it and attempted to save the baby.

[01:13:21] And whether it was successful or not, I doubt it would be successful. However, imagine Abby finding that. Not only did Ellie kill two of her friends, but she mutilated her pregnant friend. Like, that cannot be a good scenario. Um, and then the other thing, Ellie lying to Dina. I don't think that was necessarily her lying to her.

[01:13:46] Because Ellie didn't know that Joel was killed because of what he did at the hospital. She only found that out when she met with Nora. Which was literally, like, what, that day or the day before. Um, so I don't think, I think she really told Dina as soon as she had the opportunity to. Um, so we all know Joel had done tons of things beforehand that could have had someone tracking him down and trying to kill him.

[01:14:15] Um, so I don't think that it was wrong of Ellie to not assume that the hospital was the reason that Abby came after him. Um, so I don't think, and I think that's also something that Neil Druckmann and Craig Mazin kind of overlook. Is that like, I don't think Dina, I don't think Ellie really did anything wrong by not telling Dina until that point. Because she told Dina pretty much as soon as she knew that that's why Joel was killed.

[01:14:45] I think that's wrong, right? I think she knew, she didn't know the specific details that Nora told her. But she knew what Joel did and she presumed that that's why they were killing him. I can't remember if she had any way to connect it with them for sure. But the, she suspected strongly at the very least. And that's the point. I'm not sure. I, I could say it either way, to be honest with you.

[01:15:14] Because she didn't know the specifics of the situation until she did interrogate Nora in the hospital. But if you look at the flashback scene with her and Joel on the porch, it could be possible that she did put two and two together on her own. Yeah. I mean, I just can't remember. The way the show's written. The way the show's written. Ellie's like, these can't possibly be connected. Sorry. If she's. No, I agree with you, Ben. Ellie was there watching that all go down with Joel.

[01:15:43] I, I, I can't remember how much she heard. She didn't hear the part where he, he called them out for being fireflies. She was, she didn't hear any of that. I don't. So I don't know, but I, I, so I think you might have a point there, Charlotte, but I think the point is supposed to be that Ellie kept that crucial information from Dina and that she at least strongly suspected why they, why they killed Joel.

[01:16:12] I think that's supposed to be the point because Dina's pissed about it. Did anyone else hear a cockerel at the start of this voicemail? I did. I heard that as well. I did. Well, I mean, but even. That was my chicken at first. I know, I was like, huh? Even regardless of when she found out the specifics, Ellie did keep information from Dina in what Joel did. Yeah. So there was information held and which means technically Ellie was still lying to Dina. Yeah.

[01:16:40] But I think it's even more important because when, you know, as soon as she told Dina, this is what Joel did. Dina is the one who also made the jump. Oh, so that's why they wanted to kill him. We need to go home. Yeah. She, she made that jump. So, and she was right. So anyway, here's the rest of Charlotte's. Even though she also two episodes previously said it didn't matter if Joel killed everybody, hurt their family. I still want to kill them. Um, yeah.

[01:17:10] Sorry, Dina totally contradicted herself on that one. They addressed that on the podcast in a way that made sense and now I can't think of what it was, but I feel like I need to defend this show because I felt like that all worked out really well, but we'll see. All right. Here we go. Um, anyway, loving your show. Can't wait for season three. I love the game. I just finished it, uh, for the first time last week. So loving, loving that. Can't wait for Abby's storyline. Um, and I'll call him later.

[01:17:39] Bye guys. Thank you for the show. Call back, Charlotte. That was great. Good to hear from you. Thank you. Okay. JP Chanda says, Hey all love the podcast. Thank you so much for a terrific season to accompany this and my humble opinion, terrific season of television. Well, thank you. Uh, I appreciate the gang having a mixed response to the finale and being able to talk about it with nuance and intelligence. Who are you talking about? Were you listening to another podcast? No, just kidding.

[01:18:05] Two things that are sadly lacking from the realm of the inter tubes where it seems like TikTok creators went out and bought all new lighting equipment so they could look great while crapping on anything that deviated from the gameplay. That's awesome. It's definitely not me as I've got light right above my head shining on my balding spot showing everybody. Side note there.

[01:18:27] If the show is truly accurate to the game, we'd have hours of Ellie awkwardly crouching while searching through drawers and healing gunshot wounds with a bandaid toothpick and bottle of whiskey. She found anyway. I love you, JP. This is awesome. I did want to comment on your discussion about Ellie not attempting to cut out Mel's baby, a gutting pun kind of intended scene to be sure. Actually, it wasn't.

[01:18:47] It was odd to hear you talk about how much you disliked this added element in the same episode that many of you expressed concerns about the showrunners not pushing Ellie's, quote, villainy or darkness. We all agree that this is a moment that made us furious with Ellie, but it seems like all of you felt like it was a moment of incompetence or immaturity.

[01:19:06] I definitely think there was some of that because that is baked into the cake of this version of Ellie, but it was also revealing about her selfishness and frankly how diabolical she is in service to her addiction. I think it was just her freaking out because she was trying to psych herself up to do it and I don't think what caused her not to do it was like, oh, this might deviate me from my plan of killing Abby. I think it was more like, I can't bring myself to do this.

[01:19:34] Anyway, if she managed to deliver that baby, then what? That ends the mission. She would have to figure out what to do, especially in the immediate with a premature, presumably screaming baby. I don't know how premature either, by the way, people have said that, but she looked pretty dang pregnant to me. I firmly believe whether consciously or not, Ellie could not bring herself to do it as an act of utter selfishness. Her rage has no room for a baby. I guess we'll just, we'll have to disagree on that part, which by the by has a lot of repercussions moving forward in the story. Anyway, just my two cents.

[01:20:04] I agree that the pacing was off with this last episode and eight episode season would have been helpful. So looking forward to Abby's point of view. So not happy about waiting two years. Thanks again. You're all great. Bye. I mean, Ellie's happy to be a dad. Yeah. So she's there. You know, Ellie seems fine with a baby. Just, I don't, I just think they're freaked out, man.

[01:20:30] Like, you know, having somebody saying somebody who just accidentally killed going, oh my God, I'm pregnant. Cut out this baby. I, uh, that doesn't fit into my plans is what JP is thinking that. Yeah. No, I, I don't think that was my take. I don't think that was going through her head. Yeah. Her plans. I don't. Could you imagine if she actually did it and ended up somehow getting back from the aquarium to the theater with the baby? Yeah. Walking in with that baby and telling Dina, I couldn't wait.

[01:20:57] And then later, Abby shows up and Ellie's like, here. Oh, Abby, thank God you're here. Did you bring any formula? Oh, man. Do you have formula? I don't fucking know. It'd be one way to diffuse the situation, I think. Yeah, maybe, yeah. All right. I've got Ashton Purcell who says, hello, cast of us crew. Hope y'all are having a splendid summer so far.

[01:21:25] Before I share my thoughts on the season, I need to rewind to episode two for a second because I think I had a uniquely cursed experience. Someone did spoil the big moment for me, but I assumed it would come later in the season. Fast forward to April 21st, the morning of my 30th birthday, and I thought, what better way to start a new decade than with a little post-apocalyptic drama? Bad call. Nothing like kicking off your 30s by watching Joel get bludgeoned to death. Probably the opposite of 30 flirty and thriving. More like 30 mourning and mildly traumatized.

[01:21:55] Now, brace yourselves. Unpopular opinion time. At this point in the story, I think Abby is better than Ellie. Hear me out. Abby had one goal. She accomplished it. She didn't go on a murder spree afterward. She could have killed Dina. She could have killed Ellie, but she didn't. Meanwhile, Ellie, she's out here with the same goal, but has absolutely zero boundaries. Anyone in her way? Gone. And this fandom? Phew! Y'all already just set fire to the internet over Abby, but then turned around and said,

[01:22:24] can't wait for Ellie to get her revenge. The hell? It's literally the same thing. Should Abby have tortured Joel? No. But hey, we all have flaws. Some people ghost you. Some people emotionally shut down. Abby uses a golf club. Nobody's perfect. Honestly, when Ellie killed Nora, I feel like she crossed a darker line than Abby ever did. Abby had her moment and walked away. Ellie just kept doubling down. So yeah, Abby, greater than Ellie. Fight me. P.S. Please let us know when the philosophy discussion is happening.

[01:22:52] I'd love to read the book before tuning into that episode. P.P.S. Yellow Jacket Season 4 announcement. Finally, can I get a buzz, buzz, buzz? Buzz, buzz, buzz. Ashton! My people. I agree with Ashton. Yeah. 100%. No, I totally disagree. But I think that Ellie didn't want to kill Nora. She just wanted information. And she didn't want to kill Owen and Mel either. And only did because Mel, because Owen came at her.

[01:23:20] So if Abby, I mean, you remember what Abby was like. Owen was telling Abby, we need to wait and plan and whatever. Hang on. Hang on. She didn't want to kill Nora, but she was like violently torturing her. She wasn't there to kill Nora. She was there to get information from Nora about where Abby was. By violently torturing her. Yeah. Well, now to be fair, if Nora had just complied. Yeah. She wouldn't have had to. I mean, none of these people are great.

[01:23:47] But I'm just saying, I don't see that as Abby and Ellie being any different from each other. That's all. So it's for you, it's more that they're not different rather than Ellie's better. I'm arguing against Ashton's point that Abby's better than Ellie by saying, because Ashton says that Abby didn't go on a murder spree and neither did Ellie. Ellie only killed Nora. She didn't kill Nora or she left Nora to die. But so effectively killing her. Yes.

[01:24:16] But she was only trying to get information about where Abby was and where I was going with that is Abby. When she was in Jackson or near Jackson, she was myopically focused too. Like she told Owen, you know, we're not going to, uh, they were arguing about whether she should like attack somebody on patrol. And then Abby happened to see Joel and went for herself. So she was just doing whatever she wanted to anyway. She just didn't happen to get into a situation where she needed to kill someone to get to Joel is what I'm saying. Okay.

[01:24:45] Thinking on this, Jason, you're correct. You are absolutely correct. Uh, show Ellie. You are correct. So game Ellie is totally different story. Yeah. I, I agree with that. But show Ellie. Yeah. She's, she's not going on a murderous rampage. She is incidentally finding herself. Game Ellie. You kill everyone you see. Well, there's a game. There is a line. I'm going to kill each and every one of last one of them.

[01:25:12] Um, you know, I mean, she explicitly said I'm going to kill each and every last one of them. I don't think she says that in this show. So Ellie's a little different. Let's move on to our next call. Right. Who is Jason from Fort Worth. Hey, podcastica family. This is Jason from Fort Worth, Texas. I've been trying to call in every week and I've been crazy busy and I keep missing it, but I've been listening and watching the show now the season's over.

[01:25:40] I heard your guys podcast from this morning and I just wanted to chime in with a couple of my thoughts. Well, I think for me, the show, I was one of those people that after Joel passed away, the show was kind of different for me. And Jason, I specifically hung in because since you played the game and it's not the other, you kept saying, hang in there. The story is going to, you know, go amazing ways. It turns out to be the best game ever.

[01:26:07] So, you know, so I'm here and I don't hate this show, but I've come to realize that I think this show for me is like how Orange is the New Black is, was for me. And that is love the show, hated the main character. I think her name was Piper, whatever. I couldn't stand her. There were so many good characters and so much good stuff about that show that, um, that I liked the show. I think that's what's happening for me here. I still like Dina. I'm very upset that Jesse's dead because I like him.

[01:26:37] Um, you know, and I just feel like Ellie is not, I don't like her. Listen, I'm just going to be honest. You know, I know there's a lot of, uh, mixed, whatever. It's the writing. It's whatever. I don't like Ellie. I think when I see her juxtaposed to Joel, it's better because it's sort of father daughter. And I think that's what happened to me last week when I saw the Joel episode, the flashback.

[01:27:02] It was like, it reminded me that I just don't like her because seeing her with him and seeing him, that was kind of the show for me. And now that I see that it's going to shift to Abby's perspective. I see that. I understand what the show is. It's like the video game and it is taking you through the different perspectives. I guess I'm cool with that. I mean, the show is pushing me to, I think I'm going to mess around and just change, change whole affiliations. And I'm just going to be on team Abby, I guess. I don't know. We'll see how it goes. But, um, but yeah, man, I'm here.

[01:27:32] I just, I don't know. I think Ellie is pretty, uh, I just don't like her, you know, and she's getting people killed. She's getting people in trouble. I just, I don't know. I mean, I'm here for the show, but I think Ellie kind of lost me somewhere back there and, uh, we'll see where it goes, man. Maybe the show will change my mind. I don't know. Maybe the show is going to make me an Abby fan. We'll see. But I appreciate you guys. And I'm a podcast fan. So keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep being here listening.

[01:28:02] All right. Have a good week. Hope to hear from you guys soon on future podcasts. Bye. I think looking at it like orange of the new black is a great idea and a great way to look at it because, you know, one reason why I like this show is I like things that are a little more complicated and I don't, I get sick of the same old thing where there's this one hero that you root for and you know, that's the good guy. And some people just like that. And if you're the kind of person that just likes that, which doesn't sound like you are

[01:28:30] cause you liked orange of the new black, which I did too. I thought it was awesome. Then, but if, you know, I, I guess what I'm trying to say is I've hyped this show up a lot, but it's uncomfortable and it explores a lot of uncomfortable feelings and it's not easy and there's not, you know, and everybody's has their moments where you're just like, fuck man, I don't even like them. So if you don't really like exploring that kind of thing, then this might not be a great show. Yeah. I couldn't tell. Um, did he like Ellie?

[01:29:01] Unclear. Unclear. I think he was on the fence. Okay. All right. I think he did. I'm not, and I'm not poking fun, Jason. I'm sorry. I'm not poking fun at you. That was just a tongue in cheek comment. Okay. Tim from Ontario. Hey, Jason, Lucy, and the rest of the cast of us crew. This is my first time writing though. I've been listening to many of your podcasts for a couple of years now, starting with yellow jackets and then your entire back catalog of walking dead episodes. Nice.

[01:29:29] Speaking of your walking dead coverage, it was very interesting to listen to your thoughts of the episodes and observe how your musings on the show, along with its decline and resurgence of quality mirrored my own. Nice. But I'm not writing to talk about the walking dead, but rather the last of us season two. I too love Bella's portrayal of the character of Ellie and the way they have brought something unique and different to the part, rather than just trying to be a carbon copy of her.

[01:29:55] I have noticed, like you all, that the character of Ellie is not as dark as it was in the game, of which I've played through several times and is portrayed as more childlike, bumbling, and angry rather than ruthless, efficient, and vengeful. I feel like I know the reason for the difference between the game and show portrayal, and it probably has less to do with Bella Ramsey's acting and more to do with the creators of the show trying to create the tone to be more palatable.

[01:30:21] As you know, the last of us two game was beset by criticisms and complaints, and whereas many of the comments about the game's quality were merely thinly veiled expressions of misogyny and transphobia, there were some valid points made. The one I'm referring to is the complaint that the game was simply too dark, and just an endless parade of depressing and soul-crushing moments that you play as you have Ellie murder

[01:30:47] countless named NPCs and their dogs, and have to listen to their friends cry out in anguish as you commit these multiple atrocities. So true. The game has been described as a joyless slog, and as much as I disagree with that assessment, I understand the criticism. So, I believe the changes to Ellie's character in the second season are an attempt, perhaps misguided and I'm not quite successful, to add some levity to the depressing story.

[01:31:15] I personally believe that the depressing atmosphere of The Last of Us 2 is kind of the point, and I really hope the show creators were not giving in to internet pressure to lighten things up. I can't remember how you put it in the episode, but like you said, The Last of Us is a story to engage with, not one you necessarily enjoy in the traditional sense. Love the show, love your coverage, and hope to write in again sometime. Please do. Well said. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. That was fun. I like that.

[01:31:45] Yeah, well said. I think you're right on. I don't know. I would guess, I don't think they bowed to internet pressure as much as maybe Craig Mazin just wanted to shift it a little bit because he, you know, he tends to change things sometimes. All right, here's a call from Monica. Hi, cast of us. Monica from Seattle here calling to give you my thoughts on the finale. Quick summary.

[01:32:15] Hey, my same review. Not into it. But first, I listened to the pod on it, and I want to add to the discussion about Dina turning away from Ellie when she was told what Joe did. You guys mentioned her turning away because she realized Ellie lied from a mission and the brutality of what Joel did. You know, maybe he actually did deserve it. But I also want to emphasize, I think a lot of why she turned away was because not only

[01:32:43] those two things, but Joel also took away the possibility of a future with immunity from her and her baby. Her baby could have had a different world. Anyway, so with the finale, there were good moments, but... Wait, but why would she be turning away from Ellie? Because Ellie's also mad at Joel for that same reason. So it seems like they would actually connect on that. I think in the moment, she probably just...

[01:33:13] Sometimes the messenger gets the birth of it, you know? Too many places where I could feel the writers having these characters do things to give the audience an emotional journey that were so contrary to what the writers previously established as who these characters were and what they tend to do. For context, I'm not a gamer and have no idea what's coming up in the story. So maybe it hits gamers differently.

[01:33:42] First thing, why the hell did Ellie get into the boat? Walking around that inlet looked like maybe a mile and a half. It wouldn't have taken that much longer and sneaking up on foot would have been like way easier than a motorized boat. It felt like that was just thrown in to give Ellie an obstacle to give us a fun action sequence. Yeah, I wondered that too. Second, Ellie freezing and not cutting into the baby.

[01:34:09] For anyone else, sure, I get panicking until it is too late. But they took so many pains this year to establish Ellie as a person who does well under pressure and goes in guns a-blazing, literally and figuratively, and is action before thought. With all that, I really think the Ellie they had established this year would have tried. And plus, I think that would have been interesting, her trying and then failing and having that emotional fallout.

[01:34:40] Third, Jesse and Ellie making up and Jesse saying, I know you would go through fire to save me. That felt so hollow. She just earlier that day did not go rescue Tommy under fire. I was literally like, why are you having them say this? And then when he died, I was like, oh, that's why. They want them to make up before the death to give us some kind of emotional closure.

[01:35:08] That's kind of why we joked that she would have said, I would go through fire to save you, unless I had something else more important that I needed to do that day. Unless I was busy. I also agree that if Jesse is all community first, he would not have gone to try to save Ellie. Right, right? He would have known, like, it would be best for him to stay there. Or at least not him and Tommy both.

[01:35:40] Then the cliffhanger hanging with the gunshot felt like such a cheap shot. Shot, shot, shot. I immediately thought, well, that's the Glen Dumpstergate of Last of Us. Maybe the gunshot and turning to black hits differently if you played the game and knowing what's coming up, but it just felt like bullshit to me. I'm still going to watch next season, but definitely am not as, oh my god, that was amazing. I can't wait until next season like I was after season one.

[01:36:11] This finale just kind of deflated my sails a bit. But anyway, thank you guys all for everything you do and creating this community. Bye. Bye. Bye. Glad you started calling in this year. I like that. I mean, Jesse's her friend and Tommy's her uncle. So that's, I guess, what I would say in support of the other side of that argument.

[01:36:39] You would save your friend over your uncle. No, no. Why Jesse and Tommy would go after Ellie. All right, okay. I was like, fucking deep burnt all the uncles out there. Totally misinterpreted me. I love that. That was a willful misinterpretation. Well, it wasn't willful. I was actually just being dumb, but yeah, that's funny. All right. Continuing on.

[01:37:09] Tam from Perth. Hi, friends. Before I say anything about this final episode, I have to thank you all so much. That's you are fearless podcast hosts. And I say our because I feel I can speak on behalf of all your listeners and feedbackers. And if they don't like it, if they don't like me saying so. Oh, well, I'm from I'm Australian. So you have to like me. All right.

[01:37:41] Fair point. In all seriousness, giving feedback has made me stop, think, listen, respect others opinions and not just stream on randomly after an episode ends. And right again. What a wonderful reminder that I have haphazard crazy thoughts and also the ability to put them on paper. Well, enough. You choose to read them. It's super cool to be part of the community you've created. That's randomly becoming comforting to me while I deal with all the big real life side stuff.

[01:38:11] So thanks. On to this finale. I will side with those who think is too short and how we could have had an even number of episodes, et cetera, et cetera. Sure. But being disappointed with what the producers have created makes no difference. It's made. It's aired. And they are already working towards the next season for us. The fans of the game and viewers of the show alike. Imagine if they read all the negative feedback and thought, nope, we're done and they don't deserve our efforts.

[01:38:42] All of the uproar. If there's no end to the story, they are wanting to tell. And we never know where the shot is directed. This leads perfectly to my main takeaway from this whole episode from this whole series and episode. It reads everything's got a moral. If only you can find it. So in this divisions of three groups, we see this. We see in Seattle. They all believe in their own ways. So strongly giving us a moment to wonder what the moral of their story is. Whichever one you're living or watching.

[01:39:12] Each of the characters in this episode are connected with their stories intertwining as much as the overgrown streets. I loved it because I love and hate a cliffhanger. And I believe that Dina pointing her gun from the balcony will be the one who made the last shot before the screen went to black. It seems to be a popular theory. I hope they drag out letting us know what happened after we first see Abby's story. I think until then, we can't fully judge how the story is told because it's not over yet.

[01:39:43] All this is a non-gamer and nothing to compare it to either so easy for me to see it as a human story where actions have consequences and still affect others, especially in this strange, dangerous world. Signing off with Soundgarden, only Chris Cornell's voice can top Eddie Vedder. I agree with that. Seattle giving us so much more than the location in this season. The music is its own character. To me, the moral of the story is grunge will never die.

[01:40:14] Thanks again for the company on this journey. And I will follow up with that by saying I still listen to Soundgarden on a regular basis. Oh, yeah. Neil Druckmann's such a 90s grunge guy. Like Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam Nirvana. I was chuckling thinking about all the things that he put in that is so of our generation, Jason, specifically you and I. It does make me chuckle.

[01:40:41] I was driving along and the changes from Tears for Fear came off. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's off of the hurting. The album that they showed in the, you know, I get a kick out of that. And I was singing along to that and to the end credits of this season, too, with Soundgarden. It was just. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love how needle drops are becoming such a thing in shows. I know they always have been, but I feel like there's a real art to it now.

[01:41:05] Someone was saying they should really have like an Emmy or something for soundtrack arrangement of, you know, actual like not so much the composers, but the. The use of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you look at people like James Gunn who wrote movies like Guardians of the Galaxy around the soundtrack. The soundtrack was done first and then he wrote the movie. So good. Very good. Oh, seriously.

[01:41:31] One of my favorite part about under the comic covers for me was trying to come up with a song song to match whatever comic we were talking about. I mean, I broke every copyright infringement law magical, but I had so much fun. It was great. I know. You know what? I'm going to have to go back and try to take all those out because I did the same thing for years and now I'm starting to get in trouble for it. So. Really? Yeah. I'm going to have to get out. Oh, YouTube.

[01:41:58] If you, I have, even for Wilhelm, I have, I started putting episodes on YouTube and I'm, there's a couple that I started getting hits for. Spotify has been sending me messages. Spotify does it too. Yeah. Interesting. They've cracked down. Interesting. Huh? I stopped doing it. I never made a penny. A while back. So anyway. All right. Here is a call from Lucy from New Zealand. Hi team.

[01:42:27] Lucy here calling from New Zealand. Thank you for your podcast. I really enjoy it. The reason why I wanted to leave a message is I was listening to your podcast and something dawned on me. At the time, in the last episode of the first season, I sort of sided with Jo because I felt, well, it's not really fair they're not giving her the choice. But also seemed like a long shot.

[01:42:50] I don't want to question the creator of the show seemed to say that in the lore of that story, they would have found a cure. But I sort of remembered the episode with a scientist. I think it was episode one. And when he was speaking about that, the potential of the fungus being a problem in the future, that there was no cure for fungus and it couldn't be done.

[01:43:18] So from the 60s to the time of the apocalypse, maybe that has changed. I don't know. But it's hard to imagine that post-apocalypse, they have been able to do that sort of research on something that apparently was very difficult then. And they don't have a lot of equipment and resources. So this was my question.

[01:43:46] Are we risking the life of the only immune person on Earth for something we have never done before and we're not really sure about? I leave that thought with you. I look forward to hear what you have to say about that. Bye. It's like a Lucycon up in here. I know. Oh, it's so cool. I love it when we all come together. Lucycon. I love it. Yeah.

[01:44:13] I thought that was weird that they started off the series with someone saying there's no cure. And I'm like, isn't that what this is about? I played the game. Well, and I do. I mean, honestly, I always felt they put that in the show specifically to make a point that the cure wouldn't have worked. Yeah. But that's not what Neil Druckmann's saying, though. He's saying. I realize that. Yeah. And I find it very frustrating because it's like, well, then why the hell did you put that scene in there? And why would you put that?

[01:44:43] Why would you say that a cure wouldn't work in a scene where we're supposed to wonder if Joel did the right thing? If we know it wouldn't work, then we damn well know he did the right thing and there's no discussion to be had about it. And Lucy's right. The one person that you know is immune. The only known thing. And you're going to kill her before you're like, I don't know. I'm with you, Lucy. Yeah. You too, Lucy. Thanks. Thanks, everyone. I feel very affirmed by this. Then you pulled a football away. Yeah.

[01:45:12] Go ahead. Jenny from Jersey says, hello, Last of Us Friends. Eric, I'm glad you're doing well. Thank you. Feeling great. Honestly, really. That's great. That's good. Poor Dina with his arrow in her leg. Holy shit. Good thing Jesse knew what he was doing. He said, I got you, but that was a great scene. She's like, how do you know you're not going to hit an artery? I'm like, yeah, that's a good question. I don't think Ellie was hiding things from Dina. She was just waiting until the right time to explain, even if she even needed to explain.

[01:45:42] Well, she's known for a long time because Joel told her before he died. What Joel did will weigh heavy on anyone. And I don't think Ellie wanted Dina to carry that weight. Yeah, but you invited her on a dangerous mission that she might not have gone. And if she'd known that information, that's kind of the point. Well, Dina invited herself. Yeah. Well, still Ellie accepted. Fair enough. Plus, Dina just recently told Ellie what her life was like before Jackson. Now Ellie told her a part of her own story.

[01:46:12] I don't think the secret was as malicious as everyone is making it out to be. How badass that Ellie left Nora to turn and didn't shoot her in the head. A fate worse than death. Ellie was surprised it was much easier than she anticipated to get Nora to talk. I really didn't appreciate the way Jesse was treating Ellie. It's not like Ellie asked him to come. He did that from his own free will. Quote, because of you, we're stuck in a war zone. We, no one asked you to come, bitch. So shut the fuck up. Yeah. Like Jenny's style. Good point.

[01:46:42] Why does Isaac think they're going to die by tomorrow due to the storm? Are we not supposed to know the answer to this? Because he's leading a bunch of soldiers to attack Seraphite Island. That's, we saw explosions and stuff. Oh, and by the way, Jesse, I don't care about your little fling that you have with some girl. It was a pointless story. Nothing came of it. And he still loves Dina, but too bad Dina does not feel the same way. I really liked Jesse before this episode, but since he's now St. Jesse, he can kiss my ass.

[01:47:13] Oh yeah. And thanks for voting. No, you hypocrite. Yes. Ellie should have been more focused on finding Tommy rather than Abby, but quote, I hope you make it. Seriously, Jesse. Yeah. I hope you make it too. Asshole. I almost cried when I heard that line, St. Jesse strikes again. I kind of, I kind of find it strange that Ellie just knew exactly how to operate the boat.

[01:47:38] I think maybe she saw someone else earlier starting a boat, but other than that, I've never seen her on a boat. Breaks out into song. I'm on a boat. I don't know how that song goes by Lonely Island. That's the second Lonely Island reference. Yeah, that's funny. The feedback. Lonely Island. When the Seraphites tried to hang her, you knew she wasn't going to die. They aren't going to kill her yet. LOL. Luckily there was some kind of emergency and they all had to run like, see ya, we'll kill you later.

[01:48:04] I mean, really think they would just be like, do the short version, you know, slit her throat or something. Not like, oh, if we can't do the full ceremony, we have to let her go. And Ellie just runs right back to the boat as if she just didn't escape a hanging. LOL. That's kind of, I like that part. Something definitely just went down at the aquarium right before Ellie got there because it looks like there's fresh blood everywhere. And medical supplies like they were trying to save someone. Stupid Owen going for his gun. Look what you did. Now Mel and your baby will die too.

[01:48:33] Mel was obviously hallucinating due to blood loss. Ellie, cut her open. What the fuck are you doing? No, Jesus, Ellie. So I think her hesitance came from Dina being pregnant and just sheer panic, which I've never seen her panic before. But I like a forensic scientist over a doctor explained to me how that bullet went in and out of both Owen and Mel. How is that even possible? I went through Owen and into Mel, right? Just it nicked an artery on her carotid or something or jugular.

[01:49:01] And was she using Joel's gun for that shot? It's a carotid artery. Or was she using a different gun? I don't know. Because Joel's gun would have been powerful enough to do it. Yeah, to do it. Regarding the argument between Jesse and Ellie about the Sarah fight kid, the WLF was dragging away. Jesse was right on this one. I think I said out loud, what the fuck, Ellie? Do you think you're a superhero or something? Stay the fucking course. Maybe she thought that's what Joel would do. But girlfriend, you are not Joel. You have one mission and that is to kill Abby.

[01:49:31] She's like, stay on your mission. You need to stay on that fixated vengeance. Stay on target. Overall, I thought the cliffhanger was fair. This is coming from someone who hasn't played the game, but I've watched the entire cinematography of the game. So I understand why they left it off like that. They'll need more than seven episodes to tell the remainder of the story. They're talking about two more seasons. I'm a little pissed that we have to wait two plus years for part three, but it is what it is. Thank you all for everything you do.

[01:50:00] I love this podcast and your walking dead podcast. Last but never least, Lucy, I heart you. I wish we could hang out. That was really fun to read. That was super fun. I got to hang out once with Lucy and it was pretty rad. It was awesome. Peter and I were talking about that the other day. We were like, remember when we were all in San Francisco? Yeah, that was a blast. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good story, right? You love hearing about when we had a conversation and all we said was, wasn't that cool? Yeah.

[01:50:30] We were at a bar. I remember that. And everybody was drinking and having a really good time. That's all I remember. Tipsy. It was great. All right. Here is Carissa. Hey guys, it's Carissa from Portland. My thoughts on Last of Us episode. The last episode, season two. Um, I have really mixed feelings about this episode. First of all, the acting is amazing. Everybody brung it.

[01:50:59] No complaints there. But I'm eating my words from the other week about, uh, the frustration with Ellie's behavior. Um, I understood it then and I still understand it now, but I'm definitely in that territory of like, she getting on my nerves. Um, not only are circumstances telling her to stop her foolishness, literal people are telling her to stop her foolishness.

[01:51:30] Um, I don't know if this is how it was in the game. Y'all can say so in the spoiler section. I'll listen to it. Um, I'm spoiled about some stuff, but not that. Um, but if I were Dina and I'm choosing someone to help me raise my child, I would not choose Ellie. I would choose Jesse. Who's dead now. You know, like I understand that they're trying to show multiple perspectives and how easy it is to justify your choices and all that stuff. But Ellie's just flat out wrong.

[01:51:57] Like when her and Jesse were hiding and the wolves were torturing or about to torture that seraphite kid. Like, yeah, you don't just come into somebody else's fight and assert yourself and get yourself killed. That's dumb. No matter how you slice it. Um, I understand you don't want to see another human being get hurt, but if you actually want to help them, you form a plan. You don't just go in half cocked or maybe you don't just go in at all. Like sad, but self-preservation is a thing for everybody. And she like doesn't have that chip in her brain.

[01:52:27] You know, she's not really showing that she cares about Dina or Jesse or Tommy. She's just extremely immature. And I get that those people exist, but it's just really hard to watch. Um, I'm not team Abby by any means. Cause I haven't seen her story. And I think essentially they're the same person in terms of how they are, but man, that was tough. Um, I also want to reiterate my net about the manner in which the fireflies were going to create a cure.

[01:52:55] The more I think about it, like killing Ellie makes zero sense. Like it makes more sense to keep her alive for a time anyway. And like, uh, exposure to the pathogen, observe her immune response, take tissue samples, take blood, you know, maybe she ends up getting tortured or something during this process. But that makes more sense than just killing her.

[01:53:18] Like, I don't know how they would get any idea how her body fights off the cordyceps infection when she's dead. And to me, it's a really weak part of the story. And it just makes me think these people don't, don't know what they're doing. It makes me not really have that much empathy for Abby and her dad, because I don't know what kind of doctor he was. Um, a neuroscientist, he sounds like a hack. Anyway, despite those complaints and my clowning, um, I'm still looking forward to season three.

[01:53:48] I'm not turned off by the show. Again, the acting is superb. It just seems like the writing is a little, eh, not the best. Anyway, I really enjoyed this coverage. Love you guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. I love so many people and their feedbacks with that now. Yeah. Where did that come from? Renee, I think. That was Renee. That's so funny. She talks.

[01:54:15] Rinaldi Cleats says, quick notes on episode six, The Price, since I didn't write in last week. Beautiful episode. Incredible exploration of Joel's overprotectiveness going too far. Great answer to what happened to Eugene and wonderful acting from Joey P as Eugene. It was great. Artistically speaking, not in a fun way. This episode should be submitted for Emmy Award consideration, because out of all the episodes this season, because this one had the strongest acting in my opinion.

[01:54:41] If this is how Joel goes out on this show, assuming no more Joel flashbacks for season three, then Joel went out like a boss, unlike non-flashback Joel who went out the opposite way despite Abby being impressed with his looks. Now let's get down to business and talk about the season finale. It hurts. It was an emotional gut punch to see Jesse say, I can't die, only to die at the end. Neil Druckmann and his attachment to dramatic irony was all over this episode. Dramatic irony moments.

[01:55:09] Isaac, I assume, granted Abby and her people the time slash resources to kill Joel, yet his, I assume, attack on the Seraphite saves Ellie's life from getting gutted by Seraphites. Same way Abby was saved by Joel, but also lost her people because of Joel. Jesse says, I will take care of my unborn child, but spends the episode worrying for the community of Jackson as a whole, since he and Dina didn't plan to have a child. Jesse gave up a chance at being a normal young man in his twenties for the sake of others,

[01:55:36] but it deprives him of a life's simple pleasures, which affected his relationship with Dina and led to his death. I just feel like Jesse is always sad and I wonder if it's because of me, Dina, earlier in the season. Paraphrasing. Abby gets justice in her mind for the Fireflies by killing Joel, but fails to get justice for the WLF and loses Owen, Mel and Nora as a result. Ellie wants to make amends with Jesse and Dina, but only out of guilt and not because she

[01:56:02] understands her friend's feelings, which ironically enough led to the central conflict of this story. Ellie presumably is willing to die for the cure out of survivor's guilt and ignores Joel's feelings about this. Perhaps a longer conversation about the cure would have helped Joel accept the Fireflies' position on the cure, though I personally agree with Jason that Marlene should have woken Ellie up and explained the entire situation so Ellie can decide what she wants to do. Ellie's survivor's guilt is causing a guilt complex that causes her to selfishly focus

[01:56:32] on herself. I have to atone for my failure to save Joel. I have to make Abby pay because Joel saved my life. If it wasn't for me, Joel would still be alive and that's causing disconnection with Dina and Jesse. Ellie's in a powerless situation because her guilt is compounding with Jesse's death and Tommy being in immediate danger. One more thing. Abby said, I let you live, Ellie. What life? What life did you let Ellie live, Abby? Ha ha ha. I used the power of Druckmann's dramatic irony, combined ironic echo to turn the tables back

[01:57:02] on you. That's what you get for killing Jesse. He was my second favourite character this season and you just shot him like he was nothing. Who does something like that? Ha ha, Abby. I'm using your episode 2 dialogue towards Joel against you. Ha ha ha. Anyway, the true test will be what the ending for this season implies. I wonder how TV only The Last of Us fans feel about the ending being day 1, episode 4 of season 2, but from Abby's perspective inside the WLF base of operations.

[01:57:31] We played with chronology with Joel and Seth in episode 6, so I'm intrigued with how it will play out with Abby and Ellie. How will things play out in season 3 if we follow Abby's perspective? Ponder the question as we explore what if. Get in because Jeffrey Wright was the voice over for what if and he's in the last of, okay, never mind. Pun in honour of Jesse. Why would a bald man admire Jesse the most out of The Last of Us cast?

[01:58:00] Because like Jesse, that bald man would say, I can't die. D-Y-E. Bonus pun. D-Y-E. Why would an anarchist hate Seattle? They would hate the continuous rain. That's a little better. That's solid. Yeah, that's pretty good. I like that. A little better. Yeah. Finally, great job, guys, on podcasting this season. Yes, there are things that frustrated me about this season very strongly, but overall I liked it. I definitely wanted to say I liked the season overall, and don't want to dwell too much on what I didn't like.

[01:58:30] I don't want to create too much of a negative impression, so apologies if I did. I thought it was a solid season overall, and I enjoyed it. Ultimately, Jason, Lucy, Eric, Ben, Daphne, Rima, and anyone else who contributed to the podcast, thank you. It was an engaging, funny, thought-provoking, and fun conversation. Whenever my debit card deducts X amount of dollars to Patreon for supporting Jason, I'm like, yes, sir, money well spent. Thanks again, cast of us crew. And yes, I'm looking forward to the Rennie, Eric, Lucy philosophy discussion.

[01:59:00] I'm going to read that book and write in an email with my thoughts on that. And we don't get bit or say anything dramatically ironic that could lead to your death. Till season three. Thanks, Rinaldi. I don't know if we're going to get around to that book. Do we? I don't even know the title. Do you guys? I just pulled it up, actually. It's called The Last of Us of Philosophy. Look for the Light. And it's written by Charles Joshua Horn. Currently $21.95 paperback. 4.6 stars.

[01:59:30] That is from Amazon, but I'm currently boycotting. So I don't know how we'll get it. Maybe I'll try Cobble. Barnes and Noble. If they have it. Yeah. Yeah. The whole irony of everything that he was discussing, and I don't know, apologies if this was something you guys talked about during the discussion when I was off the episode, but I think another piece of irony, too, is actually Jesse's death if you compare it to Owens.

[01:59:56] Because you could scratch Abby shooting Jesse as just like an instinctual thing. Someone who came rushing through the door, her first instinct was to fire, and Jesse was unfortunately the target to that, which is very similar to how Ellie ended up killing Owen, was he made a reaction, she instinctively fired, and that is what killed Owen. Similar, yeah. Yeah. So there's a little irony in that similarity as well.

[02:00:24] So it is available from Barnes and Noble as well, by the way. Oh, there you go. Cool. Yep. Man, the day is when, now is the time when Barnes and Noble is this underdog. I remember when they were the ones killing all the mom and pop bookstores. I remember when Borders went out, and I was like, I never in a billion years thought I'd be loving Borders going away. I know. Totally do. And I love that bookstore so much. Yet, here we are. Here we are. Okay, we have one more call in our normal non-game talk section, and that is from Megan. Megan.

[02:00:54] Hi, guys. It's Megan Lehman with some feedback now that I'm finally caught up on The Last of Us just in time for the final episode. Some thoughts on this season, and it has been quite a ride. Um, so back to the beginning, I felt like Joel's death needed another episode with more time in the saddle with him. Because, you know, season one, it was a couple years ago.

[02:01:17] We didn't get that much of Joel in the first episode and a half, other than, you know, the tension. He didn't really have an opportunity to shine. Um, we actually got that in the next to last episode. But I was like, okay, I want more to remember why I love him so much, other than because he's Pedro Pascal. The fact that he died thinking Ellie was in danger and Jackson was going down was brutal.

[02:01:43] The other half of that episode totally redeemed it for me because I thought that the sacking of Jackson was just absolutely incredible. What reminded me of, um, you know, Lord of the Rings, uh, Minas Tirith, my favorite movie. Um, it's very creative in the, you know, the counterattack measures. Um, just absolutely fantastic. Uh, Tommy was a real hero. I really enjoyed that part of it. I would say that was my second favorite episode of the series after the Bill and Frank episode.

[02:02:12] Now on the topic of the Ellie and Dina romance. Um, yes, I also felt it was a little awkward, maybe a little rushed. And I tried to think, why was I kind of uncomfortable and with the pairing? And I realized it's because Dina is too hot. She's too hot for Ellie. She's too hot for Jesse. She's too hot for the entire town of Jackson, except for maybe Joel, which would have been just super weird. And he's dead now.

[02:02:41] So yeah, that actress is absolutely fantastic. She is definitely going places. Um, after the series. Now the pairing has grown on me. And one of my all time favorite songs is take on me. So that part, I, I really enjoy that floor of me. The, when you're, when you're too hot for everyone in town though, then you got to pick somebody. So that's what happened. The love scene between them where it was like, I'm pregnant. I'm immune.

[02:03:11] Let's make out. Gave me the ick factor. And the reason was all I could think was you guys just fought these zombies off. You were crawling through the muck in the subway tunnels. You are in all these abandoned buildings with mold everywhere and asbestos. And, and all I'm going to say is, you know, Dean is pregnant. She does not need infection. I saw where Ellie's hands were going. Ick, Ick, Ick. Enough said.

[02:03:34] Just please people like find some old hand sanitizer bottles, shower in the rain, something on these shows, wearing the same clothes day after day and kissing and oh, it's just gross. And there were some times I felt the same way in the walking dead too. So moving on. My last comment was on, uh, on the podcast, uh, the episode with Ellie and Joel flashbacks, when you were talking about what did the moths symbolize?

[02:04:01] And somebody said, um, their symbol of resilience, the ability to change and adapt. And that made me think of something. It triggered something I remember reading in science class way back in, you know, probably middle school. Uh, and I think maybe for the show with Ellie, it symbolizes evolution. So during the industrial revolution in England and Manchester, which was one of the, um, the cities that industrialized very, very quickly extreme levels of pollution. There were these peppered moths that were mostly white with like little speckles of black on them.

[02:04:31] And within a few decades, the entire population of the moths evolved from occasionally there would be an outlier where, um, the moth was, was black or dark gray to all of them virtually became that color because the trees got covered with soot because of the pollution. And then the white moths stood out like a sore thumb and the birds were able to pick them out quickly and eat them. And so all of the white moths got eaten.

[02:05:00] They weren't passing on their genes. The dark colored moths were the ones that made it through. Um, and this was, this was one of the very first real time examples because it happened to be when things were changing so much in the environment, testing Darwin's theory of evolution. So maybe I'm totally wacky, but I feel like Ellie is the next evolution in humanity because she's got the immunity. So that maybe the moth represents her.

[02:05:27] Um, obviously she's not likely to literally pass on her genes and, and, and procreate, but, uh, you know, and, and be the Genghis Khan of, you know, where all of her descendants take over the earth. But by studying her and what makes her different and applying that to helping save humanity, she could literally be the key to evolving past the cordyceps. So that's my big out there theory.

[02:05:51] Um, last thing I'll say is I was just absolutely gutted, um, by the death of the pregnant woman. And I just, and, and Ellie's inability to do what she needed to do to save that baby. Although I'm not sure how they would have gotten the baby to a safe place where they would have formula if it was far enough to be viable. But my stomach dropped when she pushed that shirt back down. Some flashbacks to Lori and the walking dead.

[02:06:18] Um, I think that this affected me more than Joel's death, more than anything else I've seen in this series or most TV series. Um, that one just was really, really tough. Sorry to end on a bummer note. Um, but thank you for your awesome coverage. And I am so excited to hear what everyone else has to say about this. Um, looking like a big narrative change for the next season. Um, it shows creative and takes risks and I love it. And I love you guys. Bye. Bye. That's great.

[02:06:48] You know, it's funny. Uh, the, the evolution thing, uh, one of my many majors that I switched all over was anthropology for a while. And I just remembered my very first tattoo is of Lucy, the Australopithecus afarensis. Uh, the, the. Another Lucy. Skeleton fountain. That's another Lucy. It is Lucy con up in here. Just saying. Lucy con. Right here on my own. Lucy con. Well, now that we've announced Lucy con, it's also time to say goodbye to Lucy. Right, Lucy? Oh yeah. Shit. Game talk. Because we're at the end.

[02:07:18] We're headed to game talk. So bye. Bye. Oh man. Maybe I'll just watch a play. Um, amazing. All right. I mean, I also like, if you want to stay fine, but I, I'm cognizant that. No, I'm going to try and I've been probably bad about not. I've been bad about spoiling myself and I'd like to not spoil myself. So I'm going to, I'll bow. But, um, lovely to see you. All right. Great to see you. Bye Lucy. Bye Lucy con 2025. Come soon. See you later. See you soon, Lucy.

[02:07:48] Bye. The cast of us. See you in two years.

[02:08:44] All right, we're back. It's time for game talk. And, uh, I didn't read these super closely, but I feel like it's maybe a little bit more spoilery than usual. So I would definitely suggest if you don't want to be spoiled on anything that you should probably not listen to this segment and thanks for listening all season. We appreciate you guys and we will see you in the next podcast. Everyone else. Here we go. See you in two years. All right. Next one here is from Stacy Metcalf. Okay.

[02:09:14] Step one. Cut a hole in the box. Wait, what? No, more lonely. I know. Uh, Stacy. I was like, where are you going with this? Stacy Metcalf says, this is it. Abby killed the one pure soul. When she took out Jesse. That hurt. My gamer son told me I would feel that way too about Mel and Owen. If we have their story, I guess we're going to get the Abby side next season. I really hope we get something that makes us feel for her more because Jesse overall, as always, a tremendous episode.

[02:09:44] We really can't wait two years. Please say, say it won't be that. I'm hearing three. So, I think I'm just kidding. I don't know. I don't. I don't. I dirtily don't want to hear that. All right. Next up from Billy Thompson. Hello. Hello. Hope you guys are well. Now, this episode feels like the game a lot more wet, intense and depressing.

[02:10:09] I'm not sure if you guys spotted it, but when Jesse and Ellie are walking through the city, you see the fallen crane that is between the two skyscrapers in the distance. We most certainly sell it. I hope we get to see that scene in season three. What a hell of a scene with Abby and Lev gets me so pumped for it. Me too. When I saw that, I was like, oh, I can't wait to get to that part. Yeah. Yeah. I got excited for it as well. I have to say, Jesse looked cool as fuck this episode.

[02:10:35] When he soaked in the rain, he looks he looks a lot like the character straight out of Resident Evil. And I can't blame him for the way he is with Ellie this episode. I'd be exactly the same if I was in this situation and my child was in danger. In fact, I think I'll be worse. A lot more emotional meat on the bone with Owen and Mel's death scene compared to the game, in my opinion, with the interaction between Mel and Ellie, but definitely less violent. Also, Ellie intentionally kills Mel in the game.

[02:11:03] And in this episode, she doesn't, which in a way softens the blow. Although I don't think killing Mel was completely off the table regardless. Wow. What a cliffhanger for people that haven't played the game. Seeing the last scene surely confirms it'll be Abby heavy next. It'll be happy, heavy season next time out, which I'm all for. Seeing the stadium got my apocalypse senses tingling.

[02:11:29] Let's all agree the WLF did a lot better job than Madison and the gang did in fear. Agreed. What a great season. Think I preferred season one still, but then the first game will forever be my favorite. Extremely excited for season three. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye. A lot more emotional meat on the bone with Owen and Mel's death. I don't know compared to the game. How about that either?

[02:11:55] I mean, for me, they're at least about the same, if not the game a little more, but it's subjective. If it hits, if it hits hard for you, it hits hard. That's right. So. Wyman Owen says, well, that happened. Final episode of season two. I'm not ready for it to be over. I'm not ready to wait 400 years for season three. Ah, well, this episode was not terrible. The pacing wasn't slow, but it also didn't gain any speed for about 90% of it. I thought the backgrounds were fantastic. Me too.

[02:12:23] My son pointed out the scar bridges while Jesse and Ellie were making their way through the streets. The dialogue between Isaac and Park was a little bizarre, but Hey, at least her part wasn't a one-off. And when Ellie flipped the boat and ended up in scar territory, that was a bit of a left turn for me. I do like it when they deviate from the source material, as long as it makes sense. And this just went over my head and I thought it wasn't necessary. The episode didn't end where I thought it would, but I figured it would have finished with Abby and Ellie in the theater.

[02:12:52] But then they threw in Abby's day one start. Brilliant. We thought it was going to end there too, actually. Oh yeah. Yeah, we did. Brilliant. I'm because I don't know if I liked that they put in Abby's day one start because then you have a lot of people going, I want to see Abby's story and they have to sit with that feeling for two years. I think it might've been better to just end with the gunshot.

[02:13:16] And then maybe just replay that whole scene at the beginning of next season and then go into Abby's day one. Yeah. I don't know. I could see that. Yeah. I'm kind of mixed on. I kind of liked having it there. You did. So honestly, yeah. If enough people are like, I don't, you know, I don't know if I want to see Abby's story, but I'm still going to watch. Like a lot of people are saying then. Okay, fine.

[02:13:40] I feel like you gave just enough to, to, to wet your, your appetite a little bit and want it, but that's just me. Yeah. I mean, for a lot of people, it might've been just enough to turn them off the way they're talking, but hopefully, hopefully it was good. Okay. Anyway, he says, brilliant. I'm sad it's done for now. I know more is coming. Waiting is hard. I guess the only logical thing to do is see how many playthroughs I can do before season three gets here. Thank you, Jason, Lucy, Ben and Eric for the wonderful podcasting on this amazing show. One final pun.

[02:14:10] I ran into a lamppost yesterday. Luckily I only sustained light injuries. Where's the pun there? Say it again. I ran into a lamppost yesterday. So I'm like, okay, that means you hit the lamppost, right? Cause what else would it mean? Light injury. Light injuries. It's injuries from a light. From a light. I'm dumb. That was, that was good. Sorry. And I tried really hard to send in a voicemail. I did about eight attempts and I gave up.

[02:14:39] I stumbled and stammered and just plan ran out of words in wondrous silence. Endure and survive. See y'all in season three. Wyman, you've talked about that a few times and man, if you don't, just write in, do what you're comfortable with. Like I'm glad to get a text message from you. That's totally fine. Appreciate it. Nice. All right. Next one here is from Kellen Lansdown. Hello. This is my first time writing into the show.

[02:15:07] So I wanted to say that the two weekly podcasts you put on for the show have been my favorite parts of the week for the past few months. Thank you. Now for my episode thoughts. Overall, I did really like the episode, but felt it was just like every other one. The season with the extremely delayed action. It felt like this season had a prescriptive formula for two thirds setup and then rushed 20 minutes of action at the end.

[02:15:32] Kind of disappointed with the pacing and lack of further storytelling, but happy with what we did get in this one. One thing I was confused about was why Ellie had scratches only on her back in the scene where Dina is washing, washing her in the game. She is bloody and scratched up showing. She really gave Nora a beating and any other battles she got on the way to and from. But why does she have scratches on her back in the show? Nora couldn't have done that and none of the WLFs got her.

[02:16:00] My jaw was on the floor when Mel asked Ellie to deliver her baby. It definitely made that scene even more heartbreaking when Ellie had to give up. Also, no Alice, I guess. Assuming they did that for show rating reasons, not wanting unnecessary animal brutality, but it is one of those moments that seems like an easy way out for the show and dodges some of the harder to handle scenes. Also makes me wonder if we won't get many dogs in the third season. Last thought I wanted to share.

[02:16:28] I was curious if anyone else caught when Ellie sees the Seraphite prophet mural in the episode and asks, there are multiple of them? I don't recall any allusion to this in the game and wonder if they are taking the Seraphite history in the show. Thanks, the cast of us will miss my weekly podcast listening to you all. P.S. I love Lucy's voice. It's so calming. Bye. If you start watching Walking Dead, then you can keep listening to us. That's my... There you go.

[02:16:55] I'm starting to feel like the Dead City coverage is like the red-headed stepchild. That's Walking Dead. It is. But, I mean, hey, look, I took on that podcast knowing full well it was polarizing. Hey, you got your fans for sure. That's true. About the scratches. That was, I presumed from the stalker attack in the warehouse because they were all over Ellie. Yeah. The scratches on her back.

[02:17:23] And then the thing with Alice, the dog, I started to read an article about that. I think they just, there was already enough to be, to think Ellie was, you know, myopically focused. She left Tommy. She had to kill Owen and Mel, a pregnant woman. They didn't want to add in kill a dog because so many people would just, I mean, look at John Wick.

[02:17:47] Like the whole movie is based around him killing a bunch of people because one of them killed his dog and they just didn't want that much hate for Ellie, I think. And I can understand that. I don't think it was a mistake taking it out. And didn't Mason already say, like, he feels like you get one dog-killing scene in your entire career and he already used it. Yeah, he killed a bunch of dogs in Chernobyl. In Chernobyl, yeah. So, next one comes from Chad Johnson. Hello from Kansas. First, a season podcast reflection on my pregnancy tropes.

[02:18:18] If a girl pukes, she may not know she is pregnant. If a girl refuses to drink alcohol, she knows she is pregnant. My best guess is these are used because they are more observable symptoms. Most other symptoms are more intimate details and not always observable, especially early pregnancy. This finale really had the continuous motion to it. Immediate cause and effect. Everything Ellie does has an immediate outcome. Her actions are messy and blunt and the outcomes are horrific.

[02:18:48] She has this blinding focus on getting to Abby mixed in with teenage invincibility syndrome. It's all very believable in a world with few laws. In terms of tragedy, it's a tough call between pregnant Mel and moral Jesse. I don't think Jesse killed a single WLF member. He put out cover fire, but he didn't ever kill anyone. Then to be gunned down upon entry was just tragic.

[02:19:14] Mel was shot because Owen acted impulsively to protect Mel and in turn got Mel and baby killed. In the end, both Mel and Jesse had the least blood on their hands, but were killed without provocation. Tragic. That's good points. As for the overall season, what I think they improved upon from season one is keeping gamers unusual or unsure of how events will unfold. It's not quite the butterfly effect of the Walking Dead's adaptation, but it's enough to make the

[02:19:42] adaptations make the adaptation fresh takes. But with live action realness, even the most advanced video games still can't deliver. Thanks for your coverage. Looking forward to it every week. They're getting close though. I mean, I didn't. I'm just saying the realness, like with the Unreal 5 engine, backgrounds look real. It's humans that don't look quite real, but they're damn close, but they're actually using

[02:20:12] backgrounds in like Mandalorian, you know, that's all the same video, same engine technology that they use in video games and stuff. It's wild. Yeah. And I didn't even really think about the whole aspect of how Jesse and Mel, the two biggest victims of this episode were the two with the least blood on their hands. Yeah. That's a good observation. Tragic is a good word for that. Okay. Casey Robinson says, hey, Podcastica crew, Casey from Detroit with my thoughts on the finale.

[02:20:39] The season ended exactly where I thought it would with a little teaser of the Abby to come. And wow, am I excited. That arrow scene made me super uncomfortable in the best way. You can see the wheels turning on Jesse's face when Dina refused the drink. I'm convinced he figured out the pregnancy right there, which Ellie later confirms. Amazing subtle acting by Young. I really enjoyed the conversation between Ellie and Dina. I'll admit I was expecting the hand tremor from the game to show up too, but Bella puts it all out there. You can see it.

[02:21:09] Ellie's not okay. She's not even pretending anymore. She's completely lost. Leaving Nora alive after what she did might be worse than killing her. Eric thought she just didn't care at all. I do think it was worse to keep her in that kind of thing. To be perfectly. I think it was terrible, but yeah. But I mean her Ellie's response to it. Uh, we've. Oh, she didn't. Yeah. She thought it was easy. Yeah. It was easy. No problem. We've already seen what happens to people left down there.

[02:21:38] And when someone's infected, killing them as a mercy, Ellie refused to offer that. That's dark. Ellie's doing these things because they're easy because she loses herself in the violence and that terrifies her. And it has to do because if it doesn't, then she won't even think about turning around. I love that Dina knows what Joel did. There had to be something to create tension in their relationship and motivate her to leave. That's how I saw it. Getting hit with an arrow to the knee didn't stop her.

[02:22:05] But the true motivations of the SLC Salt Lake crew will. Ellie and Jesse on the rooftop was great. Most of them made valid points. That double take Ellie did incredible. She instantly looked locked back in on her mission. I guess that's when she saw the aquarium. If the aquarium hadn't been a factor, she would have helped save Tommy and gone home. But her obsession got the best of her. On the podcast, they put it like an addiction.

[02:22:32] Like if you're an alcoholic and you're off, you're on the wagon, it's, you know, you can do it. But if you put a shot glass right in front of you, then it becomes a lot harder. It was like that when she saw the aquarium. As for the terrified island, I didn't mind it. I saw it as yet another moment where Ellie nearly dies, but still refuses to quit. Every situation is a red flag screaming at her to stop, but she keeps going. That's kind of what the showrunners were saying that was for too. And I didn't think Ellie killing a pregnant woman accidentally or in self-defense could get more messed up.

[02:23:01] I was wrong. The final minutes of the episode, fantastic. Ellie would burn the world to save Jesse if there was no Abby in the way. His death followed by Caitlin Deaver's shut up. I'm fully on board. Abby's three days are my favorite part of the game. Honestly, I think they're the best part of it. I can totally see this version of Abby being Isaac's number one scar killer. And I'll die on this hill. Abby in the game is that buff for gameplay reasons.

[02:23:30] And then a narrative reason was added after. Yeah, I think that's right. The show can show her determination in other more nuanced ways. And that's exactly what season three will be about. I'm assuming great hand-to-hand combat and a marksman like Ellie tries to be. And if they do a season four, that's about a year between the end of Seattle and Santa Barbara that could be explored, especially on the Abby and Lev side. Oh, that might be interesting. You put some stuff in there. We already know how things go on the farm.

[02:23:59] And now that Jackson is basically a character of its own, I wouldn't be surprised if we meet JJ's grandparents and other characters only mentioned in the game. Oh yeah. That'd be nice. How would you all feel about additional scenes like those? Thanks as always for the amazing coverage and discussion. Casey, I think we dig it. They were done. Well, yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't mind them. Okay. Next one here is Brett from Wisconsin. Hello everyone. Again, let me preface this by saying I did like the finale.

[02:24:29] I would give it at least 7.5, maybe an eight out of 10, if I'm feeling generous, but there were two changes in the episode that I did not like at all. First, I really disliked the scene where Ellie washed up on serified Island. It seemed way too contrived that she washes up on shore conveniently right next to her boat in a bad storm is then captured. And right as they're going to kill her, they get distracted by the signal form and they just leave her there.

[02:24:56] The only reason I can think of as to why the writers added the scene is because they needed Ellie to do something for long enough that it gave Jesse and Tommy enough time to catch up to her at the aquarium. But if that's the case, I think they could have done plenty of other things to slow Ellie down. First thing that comes to mind, they could have had Ellie come across a few stalkers on the way to the boat. This would have both slowed her down and showed her growth and intelligence by having her overcome an enemy that has been bested her twice already this season.

[02:25:25] The second change I did not like is the C-section discussion with dying Mel. I think the writers added it to drive home how fucked up the situation is, but it felt totally unnecessary to me. It made me feel like the writers didn't trust her own, their own writing from the game. And I think the adaptation suffered for it. Ellie breaking down when she realized Mel was pregnant and the game was effective enough. And in my opinion, the added C-section talk was too on the nose.

[02:25:52] I know Lucy said it worked for her, so maybe it doesn't come off as over the top for people only watching the show. The last thing I'll say is that I really don't want a season four. I think if they have an eight or nine episode season three, they will have plenty of time to finish the story from the game. Three or four episodes for days one through three with Abby. One episode to catch up with Ellie, Dina, and JJ, and back in Jackson. And the last three or four episodes covering Santa Barbara would be an ideal pacing.

[02:26:20] If they split off Santa Barbara for its own season, I'm worried that the filler they would need to add would just muddle the story. As for a full season score, I'd give it an eight to eight and a half. Overall, I thought they hit all the major plot points and the only changes that I really disliked were the two I just covered. Thanks for putting up with my long ass emails for this season. And I will definitely be back to listen in about two years. Glad to hear Eric is doing well with his recovery. Thank you, Brett. Appreciate that.

[02:26:50] Thanks, Brett. Yeah, you had some great points in there. Thank you. All right. Our next one comes from Ricky White. Hello, everyone. And now the wait. I wish this was a midseason finale. I took Ellie's confession to Dina as her trying to convince herself that she's OK with everything she just did. She seems to be disassociating here, rationalizing and compartmentalizing her actions to keep herself on her path.

[02:27:17] I think this leads to her telling Dina about what Joel did and that she knew about it. Perhaps Ellie is figuring some of this out in real time, too. At least when she tortures Nora. She doesn't. She didn't know that Joel killed Abby's father specific specifically until that moment. I may be misremembering, though. No, I don't think she knew until just then. Yeah.

[02:27:40] Also, when you're with someone you love after something like this, she may feel the need to tell Dina at that moment because she's having trouble loving herself or agreeing with her own actions. So it could be done in an effort to push Dina away. How could you love me after what I've done? Or she might be seeking validation that Dina still loves her in spite of what she's done and the situation she put them in. Just a thought. That's that's seems right. I mean, that's that's valid, too.

[02:28:09] Dina finds out. Maybe I couldn't go this far when it comes to revenge. Plus, for her, the risks are heightened due to being injured and pregnant. When she killed that raider when she was young, it was a split decision, a split second decision. She had her revenge in the blink of an eye. Ellie is actively destroying her and her friends lives with her rage. She's risking everyone's safety with reckless abandon. I think the biggest difference between this version and the game is Ellie's maturity.

[02:28:38] Ellie is very much a kid teenager in the show, whereas game Ellie feels like an adult by the events of the second game. She has immature quirks, sure, but it's not an over. It's not as overt as it is portrayed in the show. I think one benefit the game has over the show is how much time we spend with and as Ellie. It's all in the it's all in the meaningful dialogue between her and Dina that you realize she's grown up a lot since we last saw her.

[02:29:08] Show Ellie is slowly becoming that. I think that change started in episode five and the descent keeps happening in seven. The events in the events in Seattle will change her and maybe that will push her closer to the Ellie. We're more familiar with. Jesse and Ellie feel way more adverse way more like adversaries in this version of the story for this version. It works for me. He's the opposite of her.

[02:29:35] Both are flawed in their logic, but right in ways to maybe Jesse's death will be the catalyst for this change. I mentioned because that should definitely weigh heavy on her shoulders. The aquarium scene was very intense grains. Great set design cannot give that department enough props. The scenes have just been stupendous like this entire. It feels like you're literally jumping into the video game, which is great. I just felt bad for them all.

[02:30:04] Mel fading from the gunshot wound, trying to instruct Ellie to save her unborn child was really rough. I think that scene will sit with me for a while. Heartbreaking performances. I hope we see more of or from Tommy moving forward if he gets out unscathed. I feel like they've really captured Abby's essence. I get she's not as physically imposing, but as soon as she was on screen, the vibe just shifted. I'm excited to see her side of the events and what leads to this convergence.

[02:30:32] I believe there's no heroes in this setting, just survivors. I've I've I said this even from the first episode. I I've been sold on Caitlin Devers is Abby since the beginning. And I think even in the game, if I remember correctly, Abby is not as buff in her flashbacks. Yeah, she's younger. It's it's the death of her father. I think that leads her to becoming like that to really work out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's all part of her vengeance.

[02:31:01] Um, I, I wish they could have done a 14 or 15 episode season, honestly, and then we could get Abby in the back half, like in the game, you know? Yeah. Make this like a mid season finale. Like, like they mentioned. It's better for everyone. I feel like a non-gamer audience who aren't sure they're going to like Abby, they wouldn't have to wait as long to find out. Or even if they did the Netflix thing, like they've done with Cobra Kai and they've done

[02:31:30] with stranger things where like you give us part one of season one, and then maybe it's only a month or two before we're getting part two, which is the sec, the back half. Yeah. Instead of having to wait two years. Two years. I'd rather wait two months than two years. Amy Thomason says, hi there. Long time listener. First time feedback provider. Hey, Amy. Love hearing your thoughts. And discussions every week about the last of us. I played both the games and will provide a heads up of getting into any game spoilers. I just had to jump in and talk about the final episode of the second season.

[02:31:59] I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt until I saw the second season as a whole, but I'm feeling let down after processing the finale. I never felt like Ellie actually arrived at the level of pure and blind revenge that she does in the game. I understand the show is its own version of the story from the game, but it feels like they rushed so much of Ellie's transformation that was supposed to happen at this point in the story. I wish they had shown a few scenes to show how much of a formidable force she is and that the Ellie we know and love is no longer in there.

[02:32:28] She's completely driven by a force that doesn't respond to reason, just trying to dull her pain by taking out anyone in the path of getting to Abby. I never felt that this season and was ultimately not sure how I feel going into season three, knowing how the game story ends. I personally feel that the overall episode count was severely short and could have benefited from at least one or two more episodes. Everyone keeps saying that. And now I'm like, I didn't really feel that I did notice that it was lighter, but like

[02:32:56] I said before, I just think that people don't sit in their intense emotions all the time. Um, and also I, I think the person who wrote in saying that maybe the game was just a little bit too dour. Um, actually they didn't feel that way, but they thought that's why maybe why they changed it. There's a point to that too. But after so many people have been saying that I'm almost afraid to go and rewatch this season because I think I might start to go, Oh, okay. I see what they're talking about.

[02:33:26] It's funny. Cause I've, I've actually, I've actually already started rewatching this season. I got through the first cause my mother hasn't seen it yet. My mother happened to be here and we, um, we watched the first three episodes of it together. And because I was curious, she's not a gamer. She doesn't know anything about it. And, but she enjoyed the first season. So she's enjoying it so far, but there, I mean, there's a couple little things I've picked up in the rewatch, but for me, the pacing still fits.

[02:33:56] I mean, but what about Ellie's attitude? I don't, you haven't really gotten that far into it. Yeah. No, I have, I haven't gotten far enough into it. It is funny though, because my mom actually did know that Joel dies and she knows it happens pretty, pretty early on. Like she got that spoon for her and we're getting ready to start episode. And she's like, Joel dies pretty early. Doesn't he? And I'm like, maybe, maybe he dies this episode. Maybe he dies this episode. And cause she already knew what was happening at the end of the episode.

[02:34:26] Okay. Uh, Amy goes on getting into specific points about the game versus the show. Now, so much of Ellie's revenge killing spree is left out of the show during her Seattle days. And I do feel that it really hurt their interpretation of her character with this adaptation. We only truly spent approximately one episode's length. If that spending time with her in this dark revenge spot. And I don't feel that it was nearly enough to explain where she goes later in the game story. Hill crest was completely gone.

[02:34:55] One, I understand the dog specific aspects and was more than okay with skipping that, but man, that was the hardest, but one of the most rewarding levels to get through in the game. Shamblers were completely left out and was hoping to see one of them this season, especially since Ellie has multiple run-ins with them throughout Seattle. I don't love what they've done with Tommy's character. From my perspective, the show makes Ellie seem like a barely capable fighter and lacking basic instinctual survive surviving skills. I think she's a great fighter.

[02:35:25] Uh, just leaving Jackson without even looking at the map and Dina had to explain that that makes her a killing machine in the game. Uh, her survival skills make her a killing machine game. I do appreciate giving Dina some more agency as a character to explain her yin to Ellie's yang, but was confused about that direction. Overall, I understand that they can't just adapt gameplay for the sake of keeping fans happy, but it feels like they ignored some opportunity to propel the story forward with action versus dialogue.

[02:35:55] The story benefits from that so well. And there were some awkward dialogue moments this season and additions that didn't quite make sense. Having Ellie stop on Seraphite Island just to get away and get back to her boat like nothing happened. And that was the point that she just like nearly got killed and was like, okay, I got away back on my mission. Like their universe is telling me I should not be doing this, but I'm ignoring all the signs. I think that was the point of that. Yeah. And I, and I think that the, also the point I made last episode too, where it also gave

[02:36:25] Ellie an idea of like, okay, these are the people I was just trying to save. Both of those things. And just showing the tragedy of having kids indoctrinated into the system of hating anyone who's not part of their own tribe. I've, I think there was a lot in that scene, but I do agree. It was kind of weird the way it was paced. Uh, she said some precious time was taken away that could have featured something else. Sorry for this long message. I just had to get my thoughts out there, but still plan to support this adaptation because I appreciate the thought and care that went into making this series. Thanks for everything.

[02:36:53] And can only imagine what those of you who haven't played the game are going through with this finale. Yikes. It will be interesting to see how many come back for season three. I know. I hope everyone comes back. I think part of the problem is the pacing because a game has a lot of room for more things and the show, they have to condense it down and pick and choose what to feature. But some people are going to think like you, Amy, that they picked and chose some of the wrong things. But I also think having two cooks in the kitchen has changed things a little bit in ways that

[02:37:23] people aren't satisfied with like character and stuff. You mean with both Druckmann and Mazin being involved? Yeah. I suspect that it was Mazin's influence is one reason why Ellie is lighter and not as focused on that. Possibly. You know, intense revenge the whole time. All right. Amy Gustafson. Hey, Jason, Lucy, and the rest of the Podcastica crew. This is Amy in North Carolina.

[02:37:51] This is my first time writing in. I've been listening to you guys for a couple of years now, but never got around to writing in until now, even though I frequently find myself talking out loud as I'm listening to the podcast like I'm part of the conversation. I want to preface this by saying that even though I will always love the games more, overall, I really love what they're doing with the show. I absolutely love season one. I love all the actors. And I think Bella especially is doing an amazing job as Ellie.

[02:38:19] Also, the set designers deserve all the awards. So many scenes are straight out of the game and make me feel like the game has really come to life. Season two as a whole has also been very good. All the action scenes and all the infected, especially the stalkers, have been excellent. Episode six managed to take my favorite part out of either game and make it just as beautiful and moving as it was the first time I played it.

[02:38:45] And that porch scene, Pedro and Bella crying together was just gut wrenching. Also, I love the addition of Gail. Catherine O'Hara is awesome. And I definitely think everybody in this story could use some therapy for sure. All that being said, I've some major quibbles with this season. Part two is my favorite game of all time. I've played it all the way through many times on all difficulty levels, except grounded. I'm not a masochist.

[02:39:12] I have a real problem with the writing of Ellie's character this season. They are making her seem dumb and basically incapable of taking care of herself. Show Ellie wouldn't have even made it to Seattle, let alone survive all three days there without Dina being there to make sure they have a plan and supplies. Game Ellie, bless her, is definitely a bit reckless and doesn't always totally think things through, but she is certainly not dumb and definitely capable of taking care of herself.

[02:39:41] I think I would have been able to overlook this change, however, if it wasn't for a couple things. The first thing is the fact that Tommy came after them to Seattle. This may seem like a pretty insignificant detail, but I think it will end up making a big difference. Without getting too spoilery, in the game, Tommy leaves first, and then Maria sends Ellie and Dina after him to bring him home. Through the course, they would have gone either way. Though, of course, they would have gone either way.

[02:40:08] Ellie will have quite enough things to feel guilty about after all the events in Seattle, and having Tommy leave his wife and kid, who isn't in the game, referencing their kid, to come after her, presumably because he feels like he has to save her, is just one thing to add to the pile. And the second thing, for similar reasons, Jesse. I think young Misano is great, and he was an excellent casting choice, but I hate what they've done with Jesse in the show.

[02:40:36] Game Jesse is one of my favorite characters, apart from Dina, who's the GOAT. He is super chill and supportive always, even if he doesn't agree with Ellie's decisions. Show Jesse, in my opinion, is a self-righteous asshole. It seems like a lot of people liked this scene, but it made me so angry that big macho Jesse had to come in and save the day when Ellie and Dina were dealing with the stalkers.

[02:41:03] That did not happen in the game, and in fact, Ellie kind of saves him. Or at least they save each other. This just adds to the idea Ellie is dumb and incapable. Not only does he have to come in and save her, but then he is a dick about it. Not saying he didn't have a couple of valid points, but his holier-than-thou attitude and blaming Ellie for everything when no one asked him to come to Seattle really bothered me. They've meant Ellie kind of dumb, and because of that,

[02:41:32] and also by changing the timing and motivation of other characters, they are setting her up to have even more to feel guilty about after all is said and done when she will have plenty of that already. I have so much to say about this season, but this is getting long, so I'll wrap up by saying that overall, I still really enjoyed this season, and I'm looking forward to what they do with Abby's story in season three. Although I think I share a lot of people's worry about whether the non-gamer audience will stick with it.

[02:42:00] I'm one of those people who, despite the fact that I love Ellie, after a certain point, I find myself more on Abby's side, the more questionable Ellie's decisions get, and I hope the show will be able to make that part of the story, to give that part of the story justice. I look forward to seeing Caitlin Deaver hopefully changing people's minds about hating Abby. Anyway, sorry this is so long. I hope it wasn't too rambly. I'm off to listen to you guys talk about the finale,

[02:42:29] and look forward to continuing with your guys' Walking Dead rewatch. Nice. Yeah, I think you had a lot of great stuff to say there, and I'm glad you're digging the show, it seems like, as much as I am. I didn't really pick up on a lot of the whole holier-than-thou aspect of Jesse's character, but the more people talk about it, maybe the more I see it, or at least kind of see that point of view.

[02:42:58] Yeah, no, that's the one part of this message that I didn't quite agree with, especially where you're sort of, not only did Jesse have to come in and save her, and I'm like, well, he saved her life, so that's actually probably something to be grateful for. I mean, maybe it's mad at the writing for having a man have to save a woman, but as far as in the story, she should be thankful that he saved her life or she'd be dead. Yeah, I mean, especially in that stalker scene that they're referencing,

[02:43:25] there was no way they were making it out of there without help. Yeah, yeah. So there's a distinction there between not wanting it to be written that way and just what happened within the universe of the story. And so you shouldn't be annoyed at Jesse for saving your life. You should be thankful. And then him being a dick about it. I mean, personally, this is the part where we don't agree. I can see where he'd be like, hey, we took a vote not to go out here, and now you're out here and you brought Dina, who's pregnant with my child,

[02:43:55] and you're putting them in danger for this revenge mission that we all agreed we weren't going to do. So I'm pretty much with everything that Jesse says, even the part about not helping the kid and all of that. I get it. I understand. It's kind of like a long and sarcastic way of saying I told you so because when we find out that he voted no for this whole mission to go, it's his way of saying, look, I knew this was going to happen. I knew shit was going to go wrong

[02:44:24] if we did this. And he voted no for that reason. I mean, he does have an attitude about it, but it's life or death, so I don't blame him for being mad personally. But hey, we all have our own perspectives, and I agree with everything else you said in this message. Let's see if I agree with Matthew Tyndall, who says, so to spare you guys from having to read several pages, I'm just going to stick to overall thoughts. Instead of this episode. The one thing I will say, though, is Ellie on Scar Island had to be the strongest plot armor I've ever seen. I know.

[02:44:54] You'd think they'd just, like I said, slither throw up. Anyway, I completely agree with Eric, and I'm so happy someone is finally saying, Eric had to go, by the way, to his appointment. This is why you haven't heard him speak up, but I'm sure he'd be glad to hear you say this. I completely agree with Eric, and I'm so happy someone is finally saying what I've been feeling. Part two has become such a pain to even talk about how polarized it has become. The idiot screaming woke or a loud minority, but no one really talks about the other loud minority that will attack anyone that has the slightest criticism

[02:45:23] because we have to own the incels, I guess. That's part of why I love your podcast, because I feel you have fair conversations about shows. It's gotten so bad that it has even affected people in the middle. I'm not blaming you guys, because everyone does this, and I've caught myself doing it too, but every criticism of Ellie has to come with, like, two or three caveats about how Bella is amazing first. Honestly, I think they did amazing in season one, but I can't tell if that's because they're a really good actor

[02:45:52] or because they're really good at playing this type of role. I've only seen them in this game, in Game of Thrones, so I'll have to wait and see what else they do to know if they really have the range to do more. I mean, personally, I think you're probably right that some people just jumped to Bella Ramsey's defense, but I think Bella Ramsey's doing incredible in this season, and if I didn't genuinely think that, I would not say it. Like, especially, I mean, a lot of different scenes,

[02:46:22] and there are some scenes not. Like I've mentioned, I brought up the scenes where the weirdness between her and Dina at times I felt like was a little off. And that was some in the writing, but also some in the chemistry and the acting. But there are some scenes like when she was telling, when Ellie was telling Jesse, like, you want to talk about community? And that part, right after she saw the aquarium, I was just like, whoa, Bella, great job.

[02:46:51] Anyway. Yeah, no, and I agree. I think Bella's done a fantastic job. And I'm the same way. Like, if I had criticisms, I would have made them known. The sad part is the writing never gave them a chance to try. I've given it a lot of thought, and the only thing I can think of is that they did it on purpose. The game writers have said way back in the day that they knew the majority of people would naturally be on Ellie's side, and they wanted to challenge people when they got to Abby. Obviously, it had mixed success, but it was a gutsy call that I respect.

[02:47:21] The only reason I can think of to do this to Ellie is to get people less locked into her side before switching to Abby's story. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I completely disagree that adaptation shouldn't be as faithful as absolutely possible. The entire point is to take a good story and find a way to tell it in a different audience to a different audience that wouldn't normally see it in its original medium. The adapting part is changing only what is absolutely necessary for the different medium. For example, while I'm not a big fan

[02:47:51] of combining all the flashbacks into one episode, that's obviously something that needed to be done for TV. I'm fine with expanding it in certain areas, and for the most part, everything they expanded, like Seth, Isaac, and the Jackson battle, were great additions. Well, it sounds like you want it to be exactly the same unless the stuff they do different you like. All the problems came from things that either changed or cut from the game. Okay, there you go. Almost none of those were necessary for TV. I think season one and part one

[02:48:20] were 10 out of 10. I think part two was a 9 out of 10. It did have some narrative issues in my opinion, but it's still an amazing experience. For me, the second season is around a 5 out of 10. While there were some amazing parts and a lot of the supporting cast was fantastic, Ellie's character was absolutely ruined for me. And the revenge plot, which is supposed to be central to Ellie's entire part of the game, felt like an afterthought that randomly was brought to the forefront whenever the plot needed it. I don't say this to hate on anyone that enjoyed the show, thanks, but mainly to say,

[02:48:50] play the game. If you absolutely don't like games, then watch the cutscene compilations. Ironically enough, I'm still really looking forward to next season. Almost every change I dislike shouldn't really have an effect on Abby's half of the story. There's also so much interesting content between the WLF and the scars that they can expand on. I know. One final thought to sum everything up from this game player's perspective. I feel like season two is like having a friend that's never tried a cheeseburger before.

[02:49:19] You decide to make plans to take them to this amazing burger place you know, but then they go to McDonald's. And yeah, if you've never had a cheeseburger before, the McDonald's probably tastes great. The thing is, you don't want to spoil their enjoyment, but you know that there's a much better burger down the road and you just want to drag them out of McDonald's and make them eat the far superior burger. That sounds like a fun date. That's how I feel with season two versus part two. Anyway, sorry for the super long message, but thank you for the amazing coverage. Thank you. I mean, I know what it's like,

[02:49:49] especially not even with adaptations, but when you watch or play something and you have a friend and you know they're going to love it and you say, you got to watch this and they're like, and you're like, you feel like you want to just sit them down and strap them down because you know they're going to love it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the times where you have those situations where you want to show them something because you know them well enough to know they're going to love it and they end up not. Oh yeah. Then you're like, those are so, those are almost heartbreaking when you have those moments. Yeah, I've definitely had that.

[02:50:18] But I remember telling Karen and David to watch Battlestar Galactica, the reboot, and they did love it and it was so satisfying because I wasn't absolutely sure, but I have definitely recommended the stuff with them that they didn't like as much. But when it works out, it's a great feeling. Yeah. Yeah, I had a friend who I introduced to Doctor Who and he ended up just absolutely not loving it at all. I'm like, oh, I'm like, why are we friends?

[02:50:52] All right. That is our show, episode 651. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. And we mean it. Thank you so much for listening to our coverage of the show and writing in and everything. Yeah. It's great. Even though the season wasn't quite as good as we wanted it to be, it was fun doing the podcast. I think it's still fulfilled needs. I thought it was freaking great, honestly, yeah. But I do see it as somewhat flawed. But it was still fun podcasting about it and it was fun

[02:51:22] having all you guys back again after two years. Missed Rima. Oh, it's great to be back. So next episode will be The Walking Dead Dead City, season two, episode five, The Bird Always Knows. I always learn the titles from you. Oh, really? Yeah. Before I look them up. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at thecastofus.com. And while you're there,

[02:51:51] please check out our other podcasts. You guys are going to... I'm looking forward to your Karate Kid. I want to hear your thoughts on Karate Kid Legends. Yeah. It's so sad. Cobra Kai, it was actually one of my very favorite podcasts ever, shows ever to podcast on and it's now, this might be our final episode we're going to be podcasting about the Karate Kid Legends movie that's out in the theaters right now. We're doing that in a couple days here, so that'll be good. Looking forward to that. Thank you.

[02:52:22] This episode's made possible by Patreon supporters like Amber Culpepper who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi. So thank you to Amber. She'll get to hear that Horny for Hornsby podcast. And all right, that is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Amber Lovo.