Bonus Replay: Our OG Review of The Last of Us Part II

[00:00:00] Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. This is a special bonus episode of The Cast of Us back in 2023, right before the first episode ever of The Last of Us aired on HBO. We republished the reviews that me and Eric had done on the first Last of Us game years earlier, like 10 years earlier back in 2013. So now that season two is just around the corner, I wanted to present to you our in-depth review.

[00:00:30] of The Last of Us Part II, the second game that we did back in 2020 when that game first came out. So season two of the show is going to be heavily based on this game. So unless you've played or watched the game already, or you just don't care about spoilers, I really would not listen to this review because it's going to tell you some things that are probably going to happen in the show, some big spoilers. But if you, if you, if you like the game or you just don't care about spoilers, then I, I listened to this review again.

[00:01:00] A little while back and I enjoyed it actually disagreed with myself on some things, but I think it was good. Um, I think at first we were only lightly spoilery talking more about the game mechanics and stuff like that. And then we warned you and then we get into heavy spoilers and game and yeah. So anyway, here's the review that Eric and I did of The Last of Us Part II. Enjoy. Oh, yeah. Hmm? Ah! Huh. Huh. Let's go.

[00:01:34] Tommy and I went out riding the other day and he, uh, they told me a joke and I, I thought about you. It's, um, oh shoot, now I forgot it. Uh, something about a clock. How do you... Joel, it's, uh, it's pretty late and I gotta get up in a few hours.

[00:01:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. I'm gonna get out of your hair. Just, um, I w-I wanna show you something. Just give me one second. What's this?

[00:02:21] Some folks call this thing here a guitar. You wanna hear something? Okay.

[00:02:40] Promise me that you won't laugh. I'm trusting you.

[00:04:45] I'll take what I can get.

[00:05:18] Hey, Zed Heads. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Jason. And I am Eric, the human formerly known as Mr. Blog. Do you have a symbol? Exactly. That's what I'm going with. It's, uh, and this is, you know, the Walking Dead cast episode. It's the Seraphite symbol. 397. Cultist. And, uh, um, welcome back to the podcast, Eric. I don't, do you remember when the last time you were on? I don't remember.

[00:05:45] Gosh, on the, on the actual Walking Dead cast, I have no idea, man. I wasn't even sure if that was, if this was going to be a house podcast episode or it's Walking Dead. Well, you know, right on. Hey everybody. How you doing? Seven years ago, almost exactly like just a few weeks off, you came on and you and I talked about the original last of us. And, um, some listeners have brought that up since then. They just said, please don't ever do that again. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:06:14] They're like, they bring it up as something that they remember and ask if we're going to talk about it. So, um, you know, Hey, the last of us two, I've been waiting for it. I know you loved that first game and you actually played the multiplayer version for like years after that. Right. I still am. Yeah. Yeah. Seven years. And I'm still playing that multiplayer. I mean, factions.

[00:06:34] And it was definitely a huge disappointment when we found out that, and when I say we, I mean the factions community, uh, we were, we were actually disappointed that it was not going to be included, um, in the last of us part two.

[00:06:48] But, uh, there's rumors that it's going to be its own separate thing. So they are still working on it. And, uh, and I'm stoked about that because, well, I'm not going to give a, because maybe I'll get into that later, but I go ahead. If, if it's got the same type of improvements to gameplay that, uh, this, uh, game has. It's going to be amazing. So I'm excited.

[00:07:12] I mean, I never, I never got into that, but it looked cool. And yeah, partway through production of this game, they decided to put all the resources into the game because it's so much bigger. It's the biggest game that production studio Naughty Dog has ever done. But I didn't know that, but I'm glad to hear. I mean, I know they started on it because they said they moved resources off of it. So that means there's something there. So yeah, maybe they'll just do it as its own thing.

[00:07:39] And, and that is really, I mean, I, I absolutely hope that's going to be the case, but, um, such as life, you know, we'll see, we'll see what happens. I'm excited about it. Um, but this, you know, and I'm going to go back to even when, when you and I first talked about the game, it was funny because it was just a smaller segment on the walking dead cast where we discussed it. I forget what else we were talking about. Probably game of Thrones back in the day when I wasn't on very often.

[00:08:07] And, uh, I'm, I'm pretty sure that I think that might've even been the same day we talked about world war Z maybe even that time. I think that's right. Yeah. But we, we, we discussed it as a, and I had already finished it in a few days. You had not. So we just did a real quick non-spoilery sort of a discussion of our initial thoughts. And then after you finished, I always remember this. I loved it. You'd finished it. And, and I get this text basically saying, uh, Eric, we need to talk about this.

[00:08:36] And that's kind of the way this game that, or, you know, part one most certainly was, was kind of like, dude, we we've got to talk about this. And I think with part two, uh, it's absolutely no different. We've, we've got a lot of things to talk about with this. And this time, this time it's only been a few days again, but you and I are both finished with the game. So we're combining the two, I believe. Right. The non-spoilery, uh, general idea.

[00:09:02] Yeah. So yeah, just so people, you know, if you've, if you're still listening and you don't really know what the last of us is, it's this triple a game. It's a zombie apocalypse type of thing. It's actually the same idea as the girl with all the gifts book. It's the Ophiocordyceps fungus that infects ants right now and turns them into like zombie ants. It's a version of that, that turns humans.

[00:09:29] Humans. But the idea of the game actually is more about the characters in the story and it's, it's incredibly cinematic and beautiful. One of the most beautiful looking games ever made. And, uh, you know, it's really emotional and you get into the characters. And I mean, if you like the walking dead, it's, it's very similar, you know, you just get so wrapped up in the characters. You almost forget about the zombies and then they come along and add some thrill to it.

[00:09:54] But isn't that the truth? Yeah. So, so that's why I think it's perfect for, for this podcast. So, I mean, even if you're not a gamer, uh, you know, I would suggest checking out some of the, it's all on YouTube. You could watch some of it and see if you're into it. I don't know if that would be as satisfying, not being a gamer, but it's worth, worth a try. Um, before we get into the, the, the meat of the, you know, discussion about part two, I want to mention that this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Jeff Allen, who pledged their support at patreon.com slash

[00:10:23] Jason and Karen. So thanks Jeff. Jeff's been around for a while. Appreciate it. Um, as you guys know, we have a Patreon exclusive podcast, the Jason and Karen show just for the Patreon supporters on the most recent episode, Lucy guested with me and Karen. We covered the invisible man, the new 2020 version starring Elizabeth Moss. Did you see that? No, I hadn't. How did you like it? It's good. Yeah. It's really good. Yeah. It's kind of a gaslighting thing, you know, which is invisible man. Cause no one believes he keeps harassing her, but no one believes.

[00:10:53] Well, I've been so, I've been so frustrated because there were like, you know, three or four movies that have come out since the entire, uh, pandemic has started. Right. It's, it was the invisible man, um, the hunt trolls world tour. And, and I think one other thing, which I'm like, Oh, I haven't seen any of them. Um, Oh no, I didn't see. No, I haven't seen the hunt, but I need to see that too. Yeah. But yeah, I recommend it. I recommend invisible man. Okay, cool. Cool. Okay. Check that out. So, so let's get into,

[00:11:23] our, the main part of our discussion about the last of us part two, which was just released like, I don't know, four days ago, something like that. Three days ago, four, uh, let's just before. So as Eric kind of alluded to, we're going to do a non spoilery sort of general discussion about it for people who don't want to hear spoilers, but just want to hear how we like the game. But most of that, most of what we're going to be talking about after that. And I'll warn you beforehand, it's going to be really spoilery.

[00:11:50] Spoilery get into the details because we both finished the game and I'm really glad we both managed to finish the game. And, and it was really, it's, it's, I'm sorry. It's going to be a very difficult challenge to talk about this game without spoiling. Yeah. Like the first part was easy. Yeah. Well, the, the first, the first, the first game was easy to give a non spoilery review because it's, you know,

[00:12:15] a pretty relatively simple story and based in love. This one is not a linear, simple story. Right. Well, I have a few questions to ask you that might help prompt you talk about the non spoilery aspects before we do that. Uh, just quickly in general, did you like the game and would you recommend it?

[00:12:38] Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's, you know, I would say maybe I wouldn't recommend it for everybody. I did tell my kids that if this were the game that came out seven years ago, there was no way I would have let them watch it with me at the age that they were. Right. Uh, but you, yes, I, I would absolutely recommend it to somebody who enjoys literature.

[00:13:05] Good. Yeah. That's a good way to put it as the game creators have said, this is an adult game for adults. It's not for kids. No, no children and adults with the minds of children should not play this game. It's rough. It's, it's rough. Yeah. It's challenging. Well, I mean, I, I loved it. I think it's amazing. It is very disturbing,

[00:13:30] very disturbing parts. It's my favorite thing. It's moving, which anything that moves me, I love. It's really fun to play. It's, it can be scary. It can be really emotional. It can be challenging on a bunch of different levels. Um, it's, you know, games are more and more elevated to art. Like I think good TV is. And I think this game is as good or better than any great TV show.

[00:13:53] So, I mean, yeah, I think you're right. Like some people are not going to like it, but for, I think for the listeners of this podcast, I would say in general, I would recommend it. Yeah. Awesome. I hope so. I really, I really do hope so. And I hope, um, people can embrace what I found to be really great about this story as opposed to what I, what I've seen already.

[00:14:17] And, and some of the negative comments and some of the negative complaints, which, Hey, it's valid. Some of them are very, let me rephrase that. Some of those complaints are very valid. Yes. Um, and many are not, and many of them can go are other places that are not here. Uh, well, just so people know, like, uh, you know,

[00:14:41] the bunch of reviewers got ahold of the game early, you know, they, as they do, they, you know, through official channels and they started putting out the reviews when the embargo was lifted and on Metacritic, which sort of, uh, put, uh, what do you call it? They collate all these reviews together.

[00:14:59] It was an aggregate of all the reviews. It was like a 96% just through the roof. And then, uh, when they opened the door for the fans to start reviewing, it got review bombed and it's a 3.4 out of 10. So there's like people were commenting on it in ways that there was no way based on the timing, there was no way they could have finished the game and they were just bombing it because of what they heard or, well, here you got to go back a little bit further because there were,

[00:15:29] massive leaks with it. Did you see any of the spoilers leading up to that? You know, like the day before I heard a huge spoiler, which I won't say right now since we're not in the spoilery section yet, but I did hear just one thing, but it was a main thing. Yeah. I did not actually see or hear any of them. I'm pretty sure what you're talking about. I know what it is. And I honestly figured that's what it would be. Cause I'm like, well, yeah, that makes sense. Really? Well, okay.

[00:15:58] Well, we'll get into it for sure. But, um, I managed to avoid all of that somehow. Um, and well, well, I'm going to go, I'm going to go ahead and give credit oddly to, this is a weird thing. Reddit mods. Um, the, the folks on Reddit who take care of the subreddit for the last of us. I'm on there. I love reading what's going on with it.

[00:16:20] Ever since the leaks and spoilers came on, they basically put that subreddit into a lockdown where they reviewed every single comment that came through and they would not allow a single spoiler leak out and they managed to do it. So serious ups to those guys for pulling that off. I don't know how they did it. Cause I didn't see a single spoiler. Um, and I went into it fresh and I was so happy about that.

[00:16:47] I wish I had. So as far as the, this, these review bombs and everything, I agree. There are some comments a lot that are worth considering that are, um, I even feel like some of them are kind of valid. Like I've, I've got my issues or doubts about some of the directions in the game.

[00:17:07] But one writer put it that the game has triggered the most toxic pockets of their fandom by daring to make a game that actually reflects the wide spectrum of people who will play it. So people are complaining because there, there aren't your typical stock video game characters. And they're saying that, um, that basically that the writers of the game are pushing a social justice for your agenda and stuff like that.

[00:17:31] And I don't want to get into that too much, but I just want to say that, Hey, you put different kinds of people in things and TV shows and games don't always put the same kind of people because there's a lot of different kinds of people. So yeah, it's no big deal. And seriously, if, if you have a problem with the idea of playing as a, as a lesbian, don't play the game. This is clearly not for you.

[00:17:59] Yeah. I mean, I think this game, one of the themes of the game is, is about seeing things from different people's perspectives, often people who are at odds with each other, but also just different kinds of people. And so I actually think it's pretty genius to have you play a character that's not like you so that you can kind of get a feel for what it's like to walk in somebody else's shoes. I think that's brilliant.

[00:18:22] Well, and this game does an amazing job of making you play somebody you love that you might end up hating and somebody you hate that you might end up loving. I mean, it's, it's there, there are so many incredibly mixed things going on with this that to boil it down to just, you know, going back to what we were talking about earlier about the, the telling of the first part, right?

[00:18:46] It's a very simple story to say a man has to transport a young girl who's immune to a disease across the country to these people. And on the way he falls in love with her and won't let somebody kill her. In love in a fatherly way, just to get that straight. In a fatherly way, of course. Yeah, no, no, no, no, of course. Right. And he's like kind of closed off because he lost his daughter and doesn't want to care about anyone and lose them again.

[00:19:10] Yeah. So you hear that basic story and it's like, Oh, well that's pretty damn basic. That can't be good. And Oh no, what you mean? It can't be good. So it's one of the most amazing pieces of video game history ever. It's such an emotional, beautiful story of love. Right. And then you get to this game. If you were to read the synopsis of this game, I don't know.

[00:19:33] It's challenging. It can make you feel uncomfortable and, and that's a brave move. And some people don't want to feel that way. And it's just like, uh, what did we want? We watched something for the walking dead cast recently and people were like, Oh, I don't like the way that made me feel. I can't remember what it was, but there's the best.

[00:19:56] The, the, yeah, sometimes, I mean, I don't want everything that I watch. Sometimes I just want mindless entertainment, but the things that are challenging are, are often the best. Well, okay. Let me get into some of these. Star Wars comes into my life. Yeah. Yeah. Good and evil. Clearly delineated. Um, until you get to the prequels, but anyways, so, uh, how does it compare graphically and gameplay wise to the first game? Would you say?

[00:20:22] Oh, uh, that's an interesting question. Uh, uh, I would say they are both at the top tier level at their time that they were created. I think the first last of us, uh, it was the top at the time. I think this one appears to be the top at this time. It is beautiful. It is, um, incredibly rendered.

[00:20:46] I think the environments are so rich with details that, uh, that's part of the reason why I felt the original game made it so playable or replayable, excuse me, um, is going back into those details, going back and they're finding collectibles or firefly pendants, or in this case, other things, you know, um, I love that. And graphically. Oh my God. Just the addition of the, the, the dodge move.

[00:21:16] And the, the fighting. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, wait, you can dodge. No, I'm just kidding. Changes. It changes the dynamic of those fights in a way that we hadn't seen in the previous game. They added a couple little things. Uh, you can dodge when one of the infected are attacking or even a person. And there's also, you can lay flat on your belly. Oh, being prone is amazing.

[00:21:43] And Ellie is more of a climber than Joel was. And so they added some, I think they learned some things from uncharted and they've added like a little uncharted light stuff in there, but she's climbing and swinging on ropes and stuff. And it just adds a little something that makes it more interesting. Well, and then, and then you have the, the, the gorgeous callbacks to the first, uh, the first game where Ellie can swim. Yeah.

[00:22:06] This was released in, and, you know, so there, there are certain things, um, mechanically with the way the game played, the fight, the fighting felt way more fluid. It felt great. The weaponry felt amazing. The way you can upgrade things. It felt almost exactly like the first game, but just better, but better. I mean, they can, but better. I'm glad they didn't change it too much.

[00:22:30] The gameplay is the same, but better. And you know, you just mentioned you upgrade your weapons just like you did in the first game. If you find a work table, you can add a scope to your rifle or whatever, but now you see her lay the gun down, clean it off, pull off the attachment. And it's cool because I'm not really a gun person, but it makes you feel like, Oh, this is, you know, really get the feeling that this is a real gun and just makes add that extra level of realism, which is cool.

[00:23:00] So did you, did you find, I think we both agree that it was an extremely immersive experience the first time who played the first one. Did you feel that way with this one as well? Oh, amazing. I mean so much, you know, I, one of the complaints, it took me 31.5 hours. I think maybe some of that is cause I left when you're in the pause menu, it might still be counting. And I, I don't know, but I'm pretty slow. I didn't even check how long it took me to play. I mean, most people say that. No, I've heard 30 is average. Yeah. Okay. No, I've heard 30 is average.

[00:23:27] So I don't feel so bad, but anyways, um, you know, and, and a lot of the gameplay is searching around for, uh, items that you need to build, build up your weapons and stuff like that. And, um, it can be pretty repetitive, but a couple of things like the environments are so beautifully realized and it's so fun. It is immersive because you feel like you're in the apocalypse and you get to do what you would want to do.

[00:23:53] Go through a mall or a bookstore or a rich person's home or mansion or, or a slum or whatever. And just wreck the place if you want, or just look around and intrude on their privacy. Another thing that they put on is, uh, you can break windows in this one. Yeah. I love that. And you can break open like Coke machines and get a Coke for a little extra health and, uh, candy bars and stuff.

[00:24:17] And, and I love that. And it, that was really enough for me to just enjoy. And also you get a little dopamine hit, I think for each thing that you grab, cause it feels like a little reward. So, um, even though it was really long and kind of repetitive, it just, the variance in the, in the environments and the immersiveness of feeling like you get to go around in these environments where you would not normally be welcome.

[00:24:38] If it was pre-apocalyptic and just kind of loot them, it was fun. I liked being in the world, so I want to play it again. You know, I actually did start a second, um, play through. I'm just a couple hours. So did I. Yeah, me too. No, me too. I did the same thing last night, right? When I finished it. Um, which is, which is funny now. I'm glad that you said that because now this is going to bring me back to something that I felt in the first half of the game.

[00:25:03] And this, this being the non-spoilery part, um, let this be a glimmer of hope for everybody. Um, that I feel like I'm ready to play it immediately again.

[00:25:15] The first half of the game I felt was so dark and depressing and menacing and just difficult, um, in ways that are just incredibly impressive for a video game.

[00:25:35] And it has to, I have to say that the, between the direction and the voice acting in this, uh, the direction of giving the NPCs personalities with names and somebody around them that seems to care about them. Yeah. Oh crap. All of a sudden you feel guilty about shooting some rando because you got somebody going Carolyn, you know, I just shot Carolyn.

[00:26:02] Or they'd say no, but it's in such a way that it really feel, you feel like, Oh shit, that person was this other person's best friend and they'd known each other for their whole lives and she just lost them. But then you got to go kill that person too. That was upset. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the guy it's killer. We go just out of curiosity. Um, how, how much, uh, did you try to play stealth versus going in?

[00:26:30] You know, I, it was pretty rare that I would go through, try to get through an area without killing anyone. When I played stealth, it was just a sneak up on people. But, um, I think that was because not necessarily because I liked killing everyone, but just because I want to be really careful and make sure that no one's going to come after me or that also that I can get all the stuff in the area, which is probably a less noble reason, but I don't want to miss anything.

[00:27:00] You know, that's what my second playthrough is for. I found myself, um, more so this time than I ever did. And the first time I played the, the part one, there were scenes where I'm like, no, I think it's okay to run. There were some like that for me too. Just to get the fuck out. Especially more with the infected because there's more, there's encounters as in the first game with infected. And then there's encounters with people who are against you. And then there's some that have both.

[00:27:31] So, uh, quick, uh, again, in a completely non-spoilery way, I also want to point out there are a few moments, um, two in particular I can think of, um, that are, I think some of the best pieces of horror. Yeah. In a game that I have ever experienced where my heart was racing. Well, save it. Cause I, let's talk, I want to talk about exactly the moment. No, no, we will. We will. But I'm just saying for,

[00:27:59] people do not there or on the fence, just know there's pure horror in this game. Yeah. I've never, um, considered last of us. I like the resident evil to remake that came out last year is my favorite zombie game still. Did you really like that one? Oh yeah. Just the way that zombies are so Romero esque and you feel like the original horror movie. Yeah. Yeah. And they, they did the update so much justice.

[00:28:29] So, so awesome. But, uh, you know, last of us, I, it, the clickers and the zombies, they're, they're cool enemies, but it doesn't give me that Romero vibe. And they're almost incidental sometimes to the story. But like you saying in this game, there were a few, uh, segments where I was like, Oh shit, I'm scared right now. It's dark. And one might come out of the darkness and get me.

[00:28:52] When all you have is a flashlight and you're hearing, you're hearing all these noises. Oh, Oh, hearing all these noises. Here's something else to talk about in a very non-spoilery way. Okay. This game, I believe is the most accessible game of any other game created, uh, to the point where they've created the audio and various options in the menu. Even as you start the game, right at the beginning, that will allow a person who is legally blind to be able to play this game.

[00:29:21] I didn't realize that speech to text, um, and just audio. So I, most of this game I chose to play with my headphones on instead of in the house, uh, for a few reasons. One, uh, I didn't want to anger my wife to, uh, I didn't want to disturb my children and three, I didn't want to disturb my dog because the noises coming out of this game are horrific.

[00:29:50] This goes back to the voice acting thing I was talking about, but wearing the earbuds the whole time, especially the in here ones, man, I could hear little sounds. It was crazy noises and I could really tell what was coming where, you know, a close shit of clickers behind me. Oh man, there's a runner over here or, um, you know, whatever, some giant scar with a war hammer right over here.

[00:30:19] Um, it, it, it, it, it has a lot of, uh, ways of approaching this game that no other game ever has. And I'm just, uh, again, impressed with the level of detail that naughty dog puts into a game. You mentioned the, the graphics. How does that look? How does that look? Those details are ridiculous. Even the game that the one person, this is somebody you see in a trailer who's playing a PS Vita.

[00:30:49] Everybody's like, oh, that's this game. They know what game she's playing. You know, it's, it's insane. Like a lot of places are. So meticulously rendered, even that most people will never see like just for the hell of it. I bashed in the back of a window of a Jeep and you see the seats that you couldn't see until the window was broken and they're all dusty and worn. And just everything is, is, it, it, it's very, very immersive.

[00:31:16] And also they, one thing that's different from the first game is they use this facial performance capture tech. So the faces, you can see the emotion and they have nuanced expressions and it's just really effective in making you feel what the characters are feeling. So that part was really cool. And then I'm going to say one more non-spoilery thing. And then we'll, if you don't have anything else, we'll move into the, um, the spoilery part.

[00:31:44] But, uh, it's violent as fuck. You may have already gotten that. Yeah. Yeah. But even, um, more than the first game, like it's so the detail goes into the violence too. There's explicit torture. There's slashing knife fights where you can see the slashes on the person you're fighting. There's stabbing and ripping out of throats, shooting in the face.

[00:32:08] And, you know, you always shoot people in the face in video games, but you don't always look around and look right next to you and see your friend and see the blooming red in his cheek as he goes to the floor. I know, or, you know, in, in the first game, when you would stealth come up behind somebody and grab them from behind, it looked kind of like you were choking them out like a wrestling move and they would slowly go to the ground. And that was, um, that was violent. But in this one, you might break their neck and hear it snap.

[00:32:35] You might stab them in the throat or slash their throat and see the blood spurred out. I know this describing, this is really, but just to let you guys know what you're in for, you could blow someone up with an explosive arrow. Oh, my lord. And see their arms fly off in blood. Yeah. Like, I mean, part of the point of the game is to make you reckon with this violence and man, they, they just got really, really detailed with it. Okay.

[00:33:01] So, so I'm so glad you brought this up because I realized we, we really have glossed over so many things and talking about this non-spoiler review because we don't want to talk about certain things. But, uh, as much as part one is about love, this is about hate. And that's something Neil Druckmann, the director is flat out set. You know, this is a game about hate. It is a game about revenge.

[00:33:23] It is a angry, violent, uh, deep dive into humanity's darkest little nooks and crannies. And, and, and it's really fucking difficult going there. Cause I, I got the feeling they were like, God, you know, everybody always says violence is so gratuitous in video games. Let's show them what it'll really look like and what it'll really sound like. So it's not just some quick animation.

[00:33:52] You know, I, I love seeing those, uh, recently I've seen things of the evolution of Lara Croft from, you know, whatever eight bit to now. And it's like this game decided to show you violence in the now. Like, no, no, no, this is what it'll really look like. And now we're going to give you an option to pull that arrow out of your shoulder or whatever it is. It's like, Oh God, it makes you feel so many things.

[00:34:17] And there, there are certain moments where you really wish the camera would look away, but you will look away in particular. I, me too. Um, but it doesn't, it lingers there. It reminds me of a Quentin Tarantino movie. Yeah. Um, yeah. And that is actually, I'd say this, this to me, this movie felt more like a Pulp Fiction with a Kill Bill sort of thing in there.

[00:34:44] I get the feeling that, and I don't know if this is true, but they, they really want to make The Last of Us about real people, you know, that feel like real people. And they know that their gameplay style is you have to make your way through crowds of infected, but also real people and kill them all. And so we're going to make a game that where it would make sense for real people to do that.

[00:35:09] And if real people are killing that many people and it makes sense, then that's going to be some dark shit that's going on. And so, like you said, it's a game about revenge. So they kind of, I think maybe let the gameplay dictate where you would need to go emotionally if this is actually a real story and not just space invaders or something, you know? Yeah. And the, in the biggest, no, no, no, no. And the biggest complaints I'd heard going back to the complaints about the game is that a lot of people did not get what they wanted.

[00:35:37] Of course we, we, now we can say this about a lot of, a lot of fandoms when fans don't get what they want. And in this case, I wanted a Joel and Ellie adventure story, which, you know, like the part first one. And it's like, oh, you know what? If you got that, you'd also really bitch that you just got the same thing again. And you wouldn't like that either.

[00:36:02] So this story takes some bold chances and it gives you a story that I felt was very realistic to the world in which they live. Yeah. And I appreciate it because I believe the writers of this story actually respected the intelligence of the players. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm still processing this experience.

[00:36:28] It's the kind of experience that I'm glad we decided to record a day later because that meant both of us got to finish the game, but also process a little more. Also was yesterday you did too. And as well midday and. Okay, cool. Perfect. And, um, I, as of right now, I, I still like the first game better. It's, it's more tightly constructed and, uh, it was a new, it was a revelation to me.

[00:36:55] And this one feels, um, a little sloppy in some ways and a little, um, the pacing is not as good as it could be, but I still love this game. I mean, the first game is one of my top five, maybe my very favorite game of all time. So that's, you know, hard to beat, but this one is, is, is an amazing. It's, it's a, it's a huge achievement and I'm still processing. And I really do appreciate the, the challengingness of it and the, and the disturbingness of it. So it may just grow to, to be my favorite last of us game.

[00:37:25] I'm not quite sure yet, you know? Well, I do understand there may, there's talk already of a third. There's also going to be, I, I, I have more about this. Well, the TV show, the HBO show, which Neil Druckmann, the director and writer of the game will be a co-showrunner along with Craig Mazin who did Chernobyl. And I'm going to be podcasting about that probably on this podcast. So fantastic. 3.6 podcast. Not great. Not terrible. Not terrible. Not great.

[00:37:57] All right. So let's get into the, that's it for all you guys who don't really want to be spoiled on the plot from here on out. Anything goes, we're going to be talking about any and all details, including the ending of the game. So if you don't want to hear that, skip ahead. Yeah. I mean, we have chapters, so you can just look in your chapters and go right to the news if you want to keep going. There's some walking dead stuff in there. So here we go. So what do you want to mention first in the spoilery section?

[00:38:26] Okay. I guess we have to, you know, so that what, what I found interesting as I was playing through it, I found myself, you know, in anything that you don't know where it's going, you kind of have to break down. And what is this game? I did look up online just at one point how it broke down. And I could see that there was like prologue Seattle parts days, one through three Seattle days, one through three, then stuff at the end. Santa Barbara. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:56] But I was like, okay, prologue, but, but this came after the prologue, which of course the prologue in this game is, Hey, here's this game. You really love. And this character that you love and you, Eric specifically, this is your avatar on the game. Um, and the part that I assumed was going to happen, but I didn't know for sure. Certainly not this quickly. We're killing him. We're killing him bad. So the Joel death was rough.

[00:39:26] Yeah. See, no, I thought I knew the game was about hate and revenge. Yeah. And I knew it was Ellie centered and I'd watched a part of the preview that was out like two or three years ago showing her kissing a girl. And I played the excellent DLC, which we didn't talk about where she, it's about her and her girlfriend. Yeah. And so I just thought, okay, I guess she's going to lose her girlfriend and she's going to go try to find the killer.

[00:39:54] So if I hadn't fucking been spoiled, then I would have gone into it thinking that, but I read the Joel dies and I'm like, ah, no, no. I was trying to read something about the first last of us. Cause I was playing through that before we did this, like you did too. I know. And anyways, so then when I got to that part, I, I, I sort of figured, cause you, you, as you're playing Abby in the beginning there and they say they're looking for somebody. I'm like, I think they're looking for Joel.

[00:40:19] And so I kind of saw it coming, but still, even though you see it coming, that scene is so brutal. Oh no, it's rough. And, and, you know, here's the thing about this. And the thing I'm going to go ahead and say about the whole game, I think in general is so, so many of the actions taken in this, taken in this game, I feel are justified. 100% by the people who do them.

[00:40:46] Abby killing Joel justified. Ali's going after Abby justified. I mean, all these things, when you look at it from their perspective, it's, it's so understandable.

[00:41:05] And this is the beauty of this game that I, I, I unfortunately feel so many people are missing is that we, we get to experience that concept of you are your own hero in your story, but you need to accept the fact that you are somebody's villain too. Yeah. And this game exemplifies that so well. And it made me kind of, as I was playing as Ellie, I was hating her decisions. It was pissing me off.

[00:41:33] She was making shit, poor decisions. However, in the beginning, uh, all of it, like, Oh my God. Going after Abby. Going after Abby, as opposed to going for Tommy, because what was funny is that she went with, if she had gone with Jesse, if she'd gone with Jesse, she would have found Abby at the arena. Right. Right. It actually wouldn't.

[00:41:56] Her, her fanatical obsession with revenge probably in the end cost her like when they got to the farm at the end, that could have been their happy ending. But she was having PTSD and I mean, she just couldn't, you know? And there's a part of me that's like, dude, you're wrecking this perfect life. But there's another part of me that's like, I know sometimes you just can't. She needed closure. She needed closure. But then she went back and it was empty and I'm like, Oh, well, there goes that.

[00:42:24] Well, you know, so I guess, can we jump to the end real quick or do you want to take a. Just jump around. Okay. Okay. Cause I feel like we kind of have to jump around with this one. I'm still, again, like you're saying, I'm processing this. I mean, this is for people who have played it and want to hear what we thought or who don't care about spoilers, but are okay with us not giving context for everything and just trying to figure it out. So the end Ellie, Ellie leaving that perfect situation with Dina and JJ going to Santa Barbara to get this final revenge.

[00:42:54] Getting there. Now here's what really blows my mind. In. In. In going to kill Abby and love, whatever. Um, she saves Abby. Abby would have died. Yes. She ends up saving her. But, and it's that moment that she has that flash that she's drowning. Uh, Abby, she flashes to Joel. It's a scene about forgiveness.

[00:43:22] And I read somewhere today in a, and I just, when I read this, I was like, Holy shit. That is the exact parallel to when. In the first game, as you just mentioned, you and I just finished playing. Joel is being choked out by a hunter. And that's the first time Abby kills her. Excuse me. Ellie kills somebody. Is that moment to save Joel from being drowned. And it looked almost exactly like that with Ellie choking out Abby.

[00:43:51] And then she has that flash of Joel. And realizes. This is not going to, this cycle of violence has to end. This isn't going to solve anything. Yeah. And it's that cycle of violence. Cause that's where it all started. Right. If it wasn't for Joel doing what he did. At the end of the first game. I'm killing the. Oh God. All of it. It's such a beautifully intertwined story. And I get so frustrated.

[00:44:20] And that term cycle of violence. I'd heard that many times before, but never really paid much attention and didn't really understand it. And this game helped me understand it because what it means is that it's in war too. It's really important to think about in terms of war that every, like you said, everyone's the hero of their own story. And when they commit violence, they think that they're retaliating for good reason. And they probably are. They probably are.

[00:44:47] The only way to get over it is to be the first one to let go of that and be kind. And, and I, I preach about this in, in walking dead a lot. Like don't be the one and one to continue that violence. You're just going to put yourself at risk for one thing. I mean, you have to do it in a way that's less risky, like maybe a little at a time or build trust with somebody. You know, you don't just say like, put your palms up and say, okay, just take me, you know,

[00:45:17] but you just have like, when you're in a situation where Ellie was at the end there to, um, you have a chance to hurt somebody and you don't take that chance, even though it's, it's, it would have been a valid thing to do. Um, I sort of, I probably would have been totally fine with it if she would have done it, to be honest with you, but that was breaking the cycle of violence. And that is the kind of behavior that's necessary for peace in the world. There you got it.

[00:45:43] So another question I have for you, uh, thoughts on Abby. How did you feel when you suddenly switched to playing Abby? I mean, you know, I think the game is brilliant for making you walk in the shoes of this person that you should hate because we've grown to care about Joel and Ellie and she killed Joel. And I did like the moments where she was petting the dog and where Owen was taking her around

[00:46:12] the aquarium and they were having a romance. And then there was some heartbreak because it was a love triangle, which mirrors Ellie's love triangle with Jesse and Mel, um, or no, Jesse and, uh, Dina, Owen, Mel and Abby are the so, but, uh, so, so you got to, I did get to appreciate her on another level as a full, as a fuller person, but I have to say, I wish the game had done a better job at making me

[00:46:37] empathize with Abby because she seen, I didn't get enough from her to, to really feel her as a, as a person. I got a lot, but not quite enough. And I mean, that scene where she kills Joel, she knows that Joel killed her father because he was trying to save his daughter basically from being killed.

[00:47:07] And Ellie had no choice in that. So I can understand wanting to go after the man who killed, at the, at the time Ellie was unconscious. I mean, it turns out retroactively she would have chosen to do it, but she didn't get the choice. And, and I think Abby knew that. And, and so for Abby to kill Joel, even, even then I could sort of understand that impulse,

[00:47:34] but to prevent his buddies from killing him quickly, to have them put a tourniquet on him so that he would stay alive longer and be able and suffer more and to smack him with a golf club over and over again for who knows how long until Ellie showed up, showed up. I did not get enough to empathize with Abby to, to realize that, oh, there's two sides to every story.

[00:48:02] By the end of this, I still felt like, no, Abby, you're worse. That's how I, and I don't know, maybe it's because I spent way more time with Ellie that I still empathize with her. But I, I, I do think, I mean, I've, I try to divorce myself from my emotions and look at reason. And I just think that was uncalled for. I mean, I could understand her going and trying to kill the person that killed her father, but to, to sit there and torture him and make him suffer after he knew that Joel was just

[00:48:30] trying to save Ellie when Ellie had no choice in the matter. I don't know, man. I could not, I wish the game had done a better job at making me empathize with Abby, because I think it was brilliant to have you play that character. So that's where I stand on it. That's awesome. No, I'm not really. I say that's awesome because I, one of the things I was reading about people's reactions to this game is how you're going to feel about this game is really going to be dependent on how you feel about Abby.

[00:49:02] And I'm actually, I'm almost surprised to hear that you feel as negatively about Abby because you feel so positively about the game. But I think this is beautiful. I think that's awesome because. Yeah. I think I'm different than most people in that. I think most people who feel, I don't feel as negatively about Abby as I can see a lot of people do, but I do feel like Ellie's morally superior, even though she's got some issues there too. And yet I love the game.

[00:49:30] So I think a lot of people just hate Abby and resent having played her. I mean, I did feel like at times with Abby, I'm like, well, especially when the game is forcing you as Abby to attack Ellie, I'm like, I don't even want to do that. First time that happened, I just stood there and let myself be killed. Yeah. How many times did you get shot in the stomach and then the, and then the face? I don't know. Probably a lot. I get, you know, you know what I'm talking about though, right? That animation.

[00:50:00] Um, maybe not. Oh, shit. I don't know for sure. I mean, when you said the part that you couldn't look away from, there's two, or that you couldn't look, that you wanted to look away from. There's two. One is when Lev gets his arm hammered. Yara gets the arm hammered. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm sorry. Yara. No, no, no. Exactly. That was the, the, that was the exact moment. And the other one is with the dog.

[00:50:25] Uh, which, which part of which aspect where Ellie goes into the aquarium and there's a scene where she has to kill it's, I mean, there's other scenes where you may or may not have to kill dogs, but this one was more cinematic and you could really see it. Yeah. And, and it, it, it, to me, all of those things just laid those breadcrumbs in some sort of,

[00:50:51] like I said, I keep seeing a pulp fiction or say Rashomon or just all these various stories we've had in literature where we see all these various pieces in different ways and the different perspectives and how they are perceived. And it's just, it's just, oh, I love on that aspect of this. I loved it so much. Yeah. You know, one of my favorite of those is your, I guess your Abby and who's her, one of her

[00:51:19] friends, I forget who, and you're, you're at the aquarium and you're trying to get to a boat, but then the sniper shows up and he's just one of those guys that God damn, you got to keep hiding. And he's drawing the zombies towards you and avoid his bullets. And yeah, I'm like, I don't want to fucking kill that guy, whoever that is. And then you, Oh, I knew who that was, which is funny, but yeah, I knew, I mean, Jenny predicted it, but I'm like, yeah. And then it's Tommy and you're like, Oh shit. It's Tommy.

[00:51:48] And, and you're, I mean, you knew, but I didn't. And, and you're like, Oh wow. That's what I love about the game. Cause it is about perspective. And despite what I said about my feelings about Abby, I just think it's, it's really, you know, like the game is about perspective and also about the way we see the people that we're at odds with and, and we dehumanize them. And you know, that's why they call these cult members scars and why they call the scars

[00:52:16] call Abby Wolf, because you don't want to think of them as people. And you get like all like, you know, your hackles up against somebody, but everybody has their aquarium moments in there. The moment where Joel and Ellie are at the dinosaur museum and these tender moments of the game does such a beautiful job of showing. And the lesson is that, you know, whoever you feel this hatred towards, if you saw them

[00:52:42] in these tender moments, there's a pretty damn good chance that your feelings would change about these people. So I, I haven't mentioned how I felt about playing. Yeah. I'd like to know actually. I, at first, I think like most of us disliked it. Uh, I, I have truly grown to love her and I, and I love the entire story of, of, of Abby

[00:53:08] and her progression, because what I realized what I was doing is I was playing Joel and Joel gets his Ellie with Lev. Abby gets her Ellie. Abby gets her Ellie. And, and, and you see this transition of somebody who is, you know, broken in so many ways. I mean, her dad dies.

[00:53:31] And because of that, she has to fill the void with, uh, Jim and working out, uh, which led a lot of people to assume that, that, uh, um, Abby was trans, but no, that's not the case. Just worked out with revenge. Yeah. No, I don't think it's so much revenge. I think that might've been part of it. Why she obsessively worked out. But I think it was just something to fill the void, to work out, to, to have something to focus on.

[00:53:58] You even see that in the early dates with Owen where like she, she's bragging about being able to bench one, one 85, you know, um, Owen, what a, he's a great character. He's just a great guy. Patrick Fugit, by the way. Yeah. Um, from almost famous and outcast, of course. Yeah. Yeah, man. Owen is the real, is a real heartbreaker because he's actually, you know, when you play the

[00:54:24] game again, you, cause when you first play it, you don't know Abby and her friends and all of those characters. But I got to that part with the Joel death and now I recognize all these people and I see that Owen is, is really the one who saved Ellie's life, who convinced the aggressive people not to kill her. And he just seems like such a great guy. I mean, he cheats on those, on his pregnant girlfriend. Yeah. Well, exactly. And then you got that. So the, the, everything about this game is you have characters who are, and this is where I get pissed off when people say it's lazy writing or this and that.

[00:54:54] No, it's not. It's the opposite. This is, this is hard writing man, because this is like making people real and yeah, they make bad mistakes. They do dumb things. They, they either shining nights or devils. They're complicated. Exactly. Actually. I love that. The, the, the, the, the Sarah fights scars refer to them as demons, right? Yeah. Even that gives me a different sense of where they're coming from.

[00:55:19] And I love that Lev, he, he has these quotes from their leader, the cult leader, and they sound really wise and even comforting to me listening as a player of the game. Absolutely. And you know, that's what attracts people into the cult, but then you look at what this cult is doing. Well, because Lev shaved his head, they want to kill him. So it's like real cults, you know, it's sometimes they're attractive, but then you look at like the, the broader impact. It's like, nope, not so much.

[00:55:49] So, so here was a, a different way of looking at this game that, uh, came about on Reddit and a conversation I was having with somebody and, and it was something where I realized, you know, in, in, in 2013, when I was playing this game, I was playing this with two daughters watching me play a game about a man, a middle-aged man protecting a young girl from the horrors of the world.

[00:56:18] Right. My kids were 10 and eight at the time and they watched the game. Like I said, I wouldn't allow them to watch it now. I wouldn't have allowed them to watch this one then, but well, a whole lot of things. And now I, um, am a father of a bisexual daughter and a trans son.

[00:56:41] I went from having two young daughters to something different, much like this game approaches, uh, these subjects in a mature, different way. And it evolves in a way that evolved with me as the player. And that is, that's awesome. That is incredible. I mean, so all of a sudden here in this game, I'm able to actually relate to something that

[00:57:11] so many people are protesting yet. At the same time as the most, I mean, I feel like, Oh my God, was this written for me with web's, with web story about being a transgendered, um, a young man. And, and of course, Ellie's story of being a lesbian in this world, uh, and Dina being bisexual and, and it's just so many things. And then you hear people talk about, Oh, they're forcing their, their agenda down our throats.

[00:57:38] And I'm like, I'm sorry, these people's existence is, yeah, is, I mean, if you want every game to be about the same character that is in the majority of games, then that's your agenda. Exactly. There is no agenda here. It's just their existence. It's just people. And they do exist and they are our friends and our family and our children.

[00:58:05] And, and I'm watching this game that represents my children and you better fucking believe I love that. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love that. I'm really happy you brought that up. That's amazing. So I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, to, to any of the people who are, who are complaining about that aspect of it and Lev, we haven't even gotten to Lev and Yara and, and the Sarah fights and the, and the wolves and that fight.

[00:58:32] And I, and the, the, the whole idea that this game is taking place and I can't, I bring up Pulp Fiction. I'm trying to think, I feel like there's another movie or some other story where there are just like multiple things going on at the same time. My brain goes to Bertolucci's The Dreamers, oddly enough with Eva Green, um, where the, the, that whole movie takes place amongst the backdrop of the 1968 student rights in Paris.

[00:58:59] Um, but a movie that takes place with some massive thing going on behind it. And in this case, it's the Sarah fight wolf war that Ellie is clueless to. It mirrors the things going on on a more personal level between Ellie and Abby, because it's these two groups of people, which I guess in the zombie apocalypse, people have grouped off with their tribes and they dehumanize the other tribes.

[00:59:26] And even when you enter the WLF area, it just says all intruders will be shot. All trespassers are shot. Yeah. Yeah. And they call each other these dehumanizing names and they tried to have a truce, but Isaac voiced by Jeffrey Wright, which is awesome. Right. Oh my God. That's awesome. I want more of him. He's like, yeah, we, you know, we can't have a truce because it's too easy for somebody to break it. And then when you read one of those things, it says that the WLF are the ones who broke the

[00:59:56] truce. And so it's just, and, and Abby is. But nobody knows who broke it. The other side says the same thing. But Abby and Owen are fed up with it. They don't want to have anything to do with it anymore. And because they, they want to break, try to break the cycle of violence between, or just at least get away from that. Owen does. Yeah. Well, Abby wanted to go to. Abby did. And eventually. Yeah. Mel too. Go Catalina. In fact.

[01:00:24] Mel wouldn't allow Abby to go with that. Catalina is where they said the Fireflies have regrouped in that circular building, which I love. Cause I've been, I've been there several times, mostly with bachelor parties, fun place and other settings of these games, Boston and Santa Barbara. I've been, I went to school in both of those places. So I feel. You went to UCSB? Yeah, I did. I went to UCSB. I mean, really that's.

[01:00:53] So that's, um, I didn't know that. I don't need to go into details, but yeah. Yeah. So awesome. No, yeah. It's a very, the California parts were awesome for me as well. I'm like, Oh, nice. Santa Barbara. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in UC Santa Barbara, there's a town just outside of Santa Barbara called Isla Vista. That's like the most densely packed one square mile, the side of the Mississippi with all college students. And so it's quite a different scene there. And that's really my experience at Santa Barbara, but still it was cool.

[01:01:21] But, uh, anyways, I, I, about the cult, um, you see these like, uh, carved the cult leader carved out everywhere and pictures of her. And it says, feel her love. And in any other game you would have met her, but not in this game. How did you feel about not meeting her? See? And that's part of what I was saying about that. I kind of liked that. I felt like there was some bigger thing going on that you're just incidentally on the side of, and I'm fine with not meeting her.

[01:01:51] I'm I, I, I, in the background at some point, somebody mentions that Isaac killed her. Oh, and then Yara kills Isaac. Yara kills Isaac. I mean, so there, there's just so many things going on and, and which to me means replayability, uh, to be able to kind of figure out what was really happening. Catch the details. I agree with you. I mean, there's a part of me that feels unsatisfied at not having met her, but I kind of like that

[01:02:19] because it then feels more like a real life thing where you wouldn't have seen this person. Oh, we saw her face everywhere. We hear her words. She's kind of larger than life not having met her. Exactly. We heard the stories of, oh yeah, we had her in captivity and I was even trans. I love that. We never got a chance. I almost wish we didn't get to meet Isaac, but I felt like the, that one took that place.

[01:02:42] But dude, Haven, that set piece of running through Haven with Abby and Lev. It was pretty incredible, especially at the end. And I'm sitting here playing this just thing. I'm like, oh my God, this is one of the most beautiful cinematic groovy fucking things I have ever seen. You're playing in a game and you're sitting here shooting people and you're going through

[01:03:12] all these fiery things and people are calling, Abby, you traitor. And I realized, oh my God, that's also like Joel going through the hospital at the end of the first one where he's killing fireflies. The people he's supposed to be supporting and be, you know, and it's just the parallels are just there in so many different ways. A lot of echoes. And I, oh God, I loved it.

[01:03:36] And as somebody with a fear of heights, somebody as, as Jack, as, as, as Abby having a same fear of heights as me, just may, I don't know, maybe feel a little more comfortable.

[01:04:16] Yeah. And I actually killed all three of them. And I did the first game. Yeah. You didn't have to. Yep. You just had to kill the doctor. But then, um, I've like, I was thinking about you and I'm like, you know, if Eric had had his way, then this whole second game wouldn't even exist. I'm so glad you went back to that. I considered it. I really, I can, I'm like, cause I wondered what I said cause I remember feeling so conflicted about that.

[01:04:45] And the only just, and the only justification was he was holding a scalpel. And then I learned you don't have to kill the nurses. I know. I felt so bad. I wish I would never have learned that because the first time I played it, I blew everyone away. I was just so used to killing everyone in an area too. Exactly. Which brings you back to the whole point of this game. Joel was a fucking monster.

[01:05:12] Uh, especially at that scene, you know, um, he wiped out an entire political movement basically in one fell swoop and he, he denied humanity. The opportunity for a vaccine at the time. And still to this day, I still support Joel. Joel. No, I still support Joel. I still say the same thing. And I feel most fathers at the time felt the same way. It's really fascinating to me how parents and non-parents look at the world so differently

[01:05:42] in this respect. Cause I bet you the majority of non-parents would say, no, Joel should not have done that. And maybe the majority of parents are like, nope, I would have saved my child. You know, um, back to the cult members, um, and, and Lev and Yara. Now I found it like, I was really wanting the game to make me love Abby.

[01:06:08] And, and like I said, it did make me, um, like her more and, and see her as a fully formed character, but, but not as much as I wanted it to. And so then when she decided she wanted to go back and help Lev and Yara after she left them in that trailer and, um, then she wanted to, you know, she took them back to their, uh, what was it? I think the aquarium. Yeah.

[01:06:34] And then she went to the hospital to get the medical supplies, which was a fucking tough journey. And I'm like, Oh my Lord. I just, maybe, maybe when I play my second time through, I'll get that. But I thought, I don't know if I believe that she would go through all this for this stranger. I mean, maybe that was just a symbol of her being tired of this whole WLF bullshit.

[01:07:02] I mean, she does make a lot of negative comments about the cult, but still, I mean, I don't know. I, to me, it just came off like, we're really trying to make you empathize with her here, even though it's not believable. That she would do this. Uh, yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know either. I mean, there, there were certain things like the, the, so that scene, okay, let's, let's go back where, where she is trapped in that one room thinking that they bailed on her.

[01:07:33] What I would consider the, one of the most horror scenes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's the one I was thinking of when I said it felt like resident evil. Exactly. And, and, and I totally get that. So that scene to me had my sphincter clenched in such a way that it's just ridiculous. And, and it was amazing. And I thought it was great. And he's like, you like this? Oh, it was maddening. I had to do it over and over and over and devise a plan and a way to do it and this and that.

[01:08:02] And, and I really, I even hit a point like these fucking scars. They just left me. I know. Assholes. So I, it was, you know, it's just kind of this interesting progression with them where I can begin to understand. And of course they saved her life, you know? Yeah. That's true. And I guess that gets in this other thing about the, but then she's like killing people. She knew.

[01:08:30] So, you know, they're like Abby. Oh, I know. Of course. And I'm like, again, just like Joel did with the fireflies. I mean, it was, oh, this is the complex thing. Cause even, you know, Abby, I think was very conflicted about the fact that, um, Yara and, and, and, and Lev were going against the Sarah fights. They were willing to kids kill the scars, but that was because of the injustice done to them.

[01:09:00] Um, oh, it's so complex. It's so, oh, I loved it so much. Oh my God. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I'm, I'm, I'm really digging it. And it's me too, you know? And I, I guess I, I, I'm, I side with Ellie, but I don't hate Abby. You know, I don't, I'm not like, oh, I just wish she was dead. I'm sort of like, Hey, if Ellie had killed her at the end, I wouldn't have blamed her,

[01:09:28] but it was better that she didn't because that's what, you know, basically. Oh, I think it's much better. They made it to Catalina. It's much better. They're with the fireflies now. Maybe that'll just the fact that Joel saved Abby's life. First thing he did when he met her was saved her life. And then she goes and tortures him. Ugh. But, oh, but at that, but see on that one though, they were there specifically to kill Joel. Yeah. For.

[01:09:58] The torture part is what. For humanity. Okay. And then. That's a good point. It's not just that Joel killed her father, but it's also that he may have destroyed humanity's chances of overcoming this zombie apocalypse. Yeah. And Abby spared Ellie's life twice. Right. Twice. That's true. She did. And, and it's. Yeah. The second time for people who don't remember or didn't play the game, she was about to

[01:10:28] kill Abby and Abby mentioned that, or she was about to kill Abby's girlfriend. Martha. Martha. Oh wait, no, I'm sorry. Wrong movie. And that's, that's another, um, echo. It's their two love triangles in each of which has a pregnant woman. Yeah. Ellie killed Owen and the other one. I mean, she kind of had no choice cause they were about to kill her, but yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:56] Anyway, she was horrified to learn that she'd killed a pregnant woman, which is just one of the many disturbing things of this game. And of course, motherhood was definitely a theme throughout the game. You have the zebra, right? That had, uh, uh, had the foal that was trapped in the barbed wire that you get to see Abby helping the rescue. Was that like, God, I barely remember that, I guess. Cause it's sort of early on in the game.

[01:11:23] Well, it was, but, but this is with the beginning of Abby's story where you're finding out about her dad when she was younger. Now dig this one of, one of Ellie's jokes and I might be left behind. It could be the last of us, but she loves her puns. Ellie, Ellie always loved her puns. What's black and right and white and red all over and a bear zebra. Well, here you have a zebra wrapped in barbed wire as bloody as all fun.

[01:11:54] That's black and white and red all over. And I loved, you know, the first game is, and in the DLC is Ellie. If you want, you can have her read all these puns. Yeah. And, and, and, and the first game is also Ellie. She's very open and she's trying to get Joel to open up to her. And, um, he's resistant, but finally comes around by the end of the game.

[01:12:20] And then at this game, now there's another thing about the game that I didn't love that. I mean, I love the scene where he comes in and tells you the joke about the clock. It's exactly the same kind of joke Ellie would have made, but here, here's something I kind of wanted to get into. Now, um, they have this new technology for capturing emotion on faces, this like, uh,

[01:12:47] motion capture face technology, which was great. But I also thought that Ellie just looked like a whole different person. And I think, I don't know if it's because of that technology or, I mean, I know in the first game, she looked almost exactly like Ellen page and Ellen page was not happy about that.

[01:13:15] And I, so maybe they, and they, I've read that they, that she looks more like, um, voice actress, Ashley Johnson now, which maybe that was an intentional choice or maybe it was a by-product of this technology to capture the motion cap, but I don't think so. Cause Joel looks the same and he doesn't look anything like his voice actor. Well, I'm, I'm going to go ahead and say the teenage years can do weird things. It's because she's older, but they have a flashback of young Ellie. Who's exactly the same age in the first game.

[01:13:43] And I felt like looked like a completely different person. And so to me, uh, and if you put those two faces together, you know, like I've seen, you know, back and looked online, um, at least from, I, I could totally see that they, they looked so much different and coupled with her acting differently towards Joel. Like, you know, I was a little confused on the timeline, but throughout the first game,

[01:14:09] she's very open to Joel and, you know, trying to get him to come around and he makes a sarcastic comment and she goes, sarcasm, we're making progress. And then from the very beginning of this game, she seems different, distant with Joel. And I don't think she went to the hospital and found out what happened until after that first scene where he plays guitar for her. Um, maybe she's distant from him still because she kind of suspects that he lied to her. I think that's, I think that's a big part of it.

[01:14:36] I really think there is still definitely the suspension or the, the belief that he lied to her and, and she suspects it. That's why she went back to the hospital because she said something, but here's my point is that with her acting a little different and, and a lot of it is just being a teenager. She's not as perky and she's more sullen and everything. But anyway, with her acting a bit different and also looking like a whole different person, I felt disconnected from her through the beginning of this game.

[01:15:04] And it was really bothering me. And by the end of the game, I felt very much connected to her, but it was almost like I met a different person and got to love her, got to like her. And so, you know, I really like her character in this game, but I just feels like a whole different person to me. Well, so I don't like that. Yeah, I can, I can totally see that, man. I really can. I, I, but at the same time, I think you might, that might be part of the thing.

[01:15:34] Like you're supposed to see a different person. The Ellie, we saw the story better. She's more, um, she looks more pained and less like perky and funny. Well, yeah. And she was 14 when all that shit happened. And I, and I, like I said, you see the younger version of her though. And it's different. It's, it's a different face for me. It was always like post David and pre David. I'm just saying, man, you see a flashback of her with, with, uh, Joel at the same age.

[01:16:03] And I think they made her look more like Ashley Johnson. Less like Ellen Page for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And that, you know, it's like if you were watching empire strikes back and all of a sudden princess Leia is played by Meryl Streep or something. Actually, I'm very happy you just mentioned that. Cause I do kind of feel like this is very much an empire strikes, uh, an empire strikes back to the last of us. A new hope. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I kind of do complex. Yeah.

[01:16:33] And it is very complex. And I, I just, I feel like we are honestly just barely scratching the surface of all the different, we're jumping all over the place. And I think it's because we're excited. I think it's because we, we don't even know where to begin. It's all over the place. There are stories all over the place. Yeah. Well, you know, also I like, you know, when I, when I podcast, I'd rather just talk about what we're most interested in talking about than trying to artificially go through some linear progression or something like that.

[01:17:02] Well, the top five, I, like I said with the top five, I think we've, we would have both come up with the same thing, which been like great green gameplay. The animations were amazing. There were some really scary moments that were great. Um, you know, but this game is just, I don't know. We've said it before a billion times. It's different. It's emotional. There was something just, uh, I can't understand the hate surrounding all of it. The frustration. I mean, I don't know.

[01:17:31] Is it just the expectations? I don't know, but it was, I loved it. I think maybe we need to start ending it. Cause I'm just like, I loved it. I love so many parts about it. Yeah. I love playing as Abby. I love Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara. We haven't even talked about that. Yeah. Um, the rattlers. Oh my God. They're horrible. Slave traders. Basically. Um, it was that final scene. Let's fight. Let's do, let's talk about this final scene,

[01:18:00] the final battle, the big boss battle between a slightly beefed up belly after having eaten on the farm versus the emaciated Abby. who was going to die in the ocean surf. It was just, God, that was just, I felt the weight every punch. I'm just like, stop, just stop both of you. Mm. It's over. I mean,

[01:18:29] I was very much in a war with myself there because I was on Ellie's side. There was a part of me that's like, just finish it. But the part that I, you know, they say, um, what did they say? Well, you know, appeal to your better, better angels or the one about feeding the wolf for feeding the wolf that you want to win or something like that. Anyways, I mean, the part of me that,

[01:18:54] that I would wanted to win out is the part where she would back off and not finish her off. And there is a part of me still that feels unsatisfied that it has a blood lust for vengeance, but I'm so glad that she chose that route. And I think she needed to go there and do that and have that choice to make. No, it had to be finished. It's, it's done. It's finished. And she saved her life. So that's even better than just, I didn't kill her, but I saved her and then let her live.

[01:19:22] And the first thing Abby does is cut down Lev. Yeah. She cares about the first thing. She loves love because it's like her son is her Ellie or her little brother. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Absolutely. That was her Ellie. So the, the parallels here, it was, I think remarkably done. And I really loved the scenes with Lev and Abby on the raft at the top of the building where Lev is just like sprightly sprinting across the,

[01:19:52] Oh, and he's like, Oh, I hate this. That was a nice dynamic. As somebody who was terrified of heights, I responded to that in such a way. I was like, Oh no, I totally understand. I wouldn't do that either. What the fuck? Are you guys crazy? Oh God. Yeah. I really, a couple of, one other thing I just wanted to mention before we move on is, um, I really loved when Ellie and Dina found their friend Eugene's lair and found out he was growing tons of pot and, uh,

[01:20:22] they find a gas mask bong and Ellie totally unironically says he was so smart. I love that. That was great. And then they get high, which was a really fun scene. That was fun. this game's the best. That was so early. No, it really is. God, I love this game. So, I don't know, Jason. So, so where do you think Ellie went at the end when she, she went to the farm? Back to Jackson. No one was there? Yeah,

[01:20:51] I guess. She went back to Jackson because that's where. It was interesting that she tried, she tried to play the guitar and really couldn't because she'd lost two of her fingers, which is representative of what happens when you have a fanatical obsession with revenge. And, but she was, I felt also that that was kind of a letting go of Joel a little bit, leaving the guitar behind. I don't know. Yeah, I think it was very much a, I'm going back to Jackson to find my wife and my son. And hopefully.

[01:21:21] Yeah. If they will have her, they may not. And I hope they'll have her, but we'll see. And maybe not. You're right. Absolutely. Maybe not. Um, can't necessarily blame them. Yeah. All right. So, um, great. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. God. I feel like I've just went through a cathartic event. I'm glad you're the one to have on this podcast. Thank you for agreeing to do it, but we're not done yet. We'll take a little break. There's more to come. Stay with us.

[01:21:47] So San Diego comic-con is not happening this year because of COVID-19 or at least not the normal San Diego comic-con,

[01:22:27] but I don't know if you know this, but they've announced they're doing an online version. I saw something about that. Yeah. It's called comic-con at home. They're doing, I mean, yeah, it's not going to be like that, but you know, they're trying their best. They're doing panels and presentations about comics and gaming and TV and film and whatever else. And they're even doing a masquerade and they're doing some gaming things. And the best part is that it's all totally free. So there's no limitation. Well,

[01:22:57] that's cool. But I mean, if, if you cannot smell sweaty nerds on a Sunday morning, it's not comic-con. It's not comic-con. Seriously, those cosplay outfits, you know, they get, well, they're actually sending out nerd sweat, soaked rags for people just so they can sort of feel like they're a part of it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is a bummer. I mean, look, 2020 is just the giant, like, you know,

[01:23:26] a shit heap of history for the time being, a shit heap of modern history of like, okay, this really sucks. Seriously, 2019 for me, I'm getting personal in this episode, I guess, you know, the wife got cancer, breast cancer, doing well now, everything's fine. But we really came out of that with night 2019 going, well, shit, that year was fucked. 2020 is going to be way better. Oh my God. No, really?

[01:23:55] It was really, really. There's this great series, this comedian on YouTube who meets her past self and she's like, she like, time travels from the future. And, uh, do you have any hobbies? Cause you're not going to be going outside. I'm not going to be going outside. What's going on? Stuff like that. I'm grateful. I have a lot of star Wars puzzles. Well, whatever. I didn't actually have to be inside much. I was working the whole damn time, but I mean, um, but really 2020 has been a,

[01:24:25] a, a pure shit show. Uh, I'm going to have to interrupt there. Like I'm glad that your wife is in remission and that's okay. Right on. Yeah, no, me too. That is a very good thing. Yeah. And some of these, um, rallies and things have been really inspiring and, um, kids are participating in. And that's awesome. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, you're right, man. There's a lot of people suffering. There's people dying from the virus.

[01:24:54] There's people suffering because of the economic implications. So it's no, it's not, not good, but I mean, there are, there are some little sparkles of, of goodness in there. You sir are always a person who looks at the bright side and I appreciate it. Really? You are absolutely right. There are some extremely great things happening, uh, in light of, and because of the dumpster fire. That was the first half of 2020.

[01:25:23] Maybe we'll look at that first time. 2020. Yeah. Dumpster fire where Australia was afraid. I'm afraid to get the virus. Are you? Yeah. Cause I have a touch of asthma. So, uh, not in a spring chicken, but, but one of the, one of the, yeah, one of the very small silver linings, and it's very, very small in the grand scheme, but is that they're doing comic con. And the only reason why I bring that up is because there, I want to report in the news here that, um, they're doing,

[01:25:53] they've announced some walking dead and fear of the walking dead panels. And, um, cool. The walking dead panel is spotlighting the season 10 finale, which I don't, I don't know if you know, but they had to not release the finale yet of the season. Cause they're still working on it. Yes, I did hear about that. And they had the whole production, right? Yeah. So they haven't announced when it's going to be out, but they're saying later this year, but that's going to be moderated by Hardwick. Of course, it's going to have Gimple, Angela Kang, Greg Nicotero, Norman Reedus, Melissa McBride, Jeffrey Dean Morgan,

[01:26:23] Lauren Cohan, um, Josh McDermott, I have not heard. Ross Marquand and Paolo Lozaro, who plays princess. Who's fantastic. Oh, they finally got princess into the show. Yeah. And she's really good. Is she pretty cool? Yes. Yeah. She's only been in one episode, but so far the pink, uh, the pink frilly. Oh yeah. They changed it to black. No, I'm just kidding. It's pink. Okay.

[01:26:52] And then I only know the comic version folks. I only know the comic version. She's straight out. You know, it was like that first scene with Abraham Rosita and Eugene straight out of the car. Yeah. Gotcha. All right. Fear the walking dead, which as you guys all know, I'm super excited about not, but anyways, um, is it still on? Yeah. Uh, the focus is on the upcoming six season for the panel. They're having Gimple, the showrunners, Andrew Chambliss and Ian, in Goldberg cast members,

[01:27:22] Lenny James, Alicia, Devin, Carrie, Coleman, Domingo, Danae Garcia, Karen, David, Jenna, Elfman, Elfman, and Ruben blades. Hold on. So Lenny James is on fear now. Yeah. He moved over there. It's tragic. Jenna Elfman. Yeah. Oh, here's the thing that happened with fear is, um, the ratings were starting to go down. And so they decided to shake things up and get new showrunners and bring

[01:27:51] Morgan over. And it actually started out pretty promising. There's some really cool characters on there, but over time it became really apparent, at least to me and all my podcast co-hosts that it just sucked ass. And, uh, so we've decided to finally, we decided to stop covering it at least on an episode by episode basis. Hmm. Okay. So I feel bad for Lenny James, but, um, I don't know, maybe six and season six will turn things around. Who knows?

[01:28:20] But there's also a third, uh, you know, a second spinoff, a third walking dead show called world beyond that was supposed to come out in April. They've delayed it till later in the year. They're doing a panel on that as well. It'll have Gimple showrunner, Matt and the Gretti and a whole bunch of the cast members on that one. Hmm. Yeah. Okay, cool. And then, uh, if you're a fan of Nosferatu, the TV show based on the Joe Hill, um, novel, they're having a panel on that one.

[01:28:48] The dates and times for these have not yet been announced, but they'll, they should be announced pretty soon. I imagine. Wait, and this is Comic-Con. Yeah. It's all online panels for Comic-Con at home. Hmm. But now the rest of the news I have is, is last of us related. Uh, the first couple items, not spoilery last one's very spoilery. So we talked about this a little bit earlier, but in case you didn't know, it's been announced. They're working on a last of us,

[01:29:16] HBO TV series by Neil Druckmann, the games director and Craig Mazin who did Chernobyl. They've also confirmed that Johan rank, who directed all of Chernobyl direct, at least the first episode of last of us. Did you see Chernobyl? I did. Oh my Lord. Pretty good, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's great, man. It's, it's on HBO and got these guys working on it. It makes me really happy. Speaking with entertainment weekly,

[01:29:44] Neil Druckmann said the series will succeed if it manages to make viewers feel emotionally responsible for what they're seeing. Uh, he said, can we make you feel hate, guilt, shame, which are interesting things that are totally unique to video games. You can't quite do it in films and TV. No, enough. Just let me, let me feel good for a moment. God damn it. No, that's great. No, that's awesome. No, I'm joking. That's wonderful. It's funny. Uh,

[01:30:15] then yes, you can, you fucking can. I know. Stop reaching for the stars. Bastard. So, uh, let's see. Then, uh, Indie wire. I've never had an interview with Neil Druckmann and co-writer narrative lead, Haley gross. It's, it's pretty long, but I think I'm going to read a lot of it because I thought it was really good. So here we go.

[01:30:43] They say the story of last of us part two is almost perfectly symmetrical from the opening and closing shots. Oh, this is spoiler you guys. So if you don't want to hear spoilers, you should skip ahead. Super spoiler. from the opening and closing shots of the guitar to the accordion like structure, the rhymes between life and Jackson and the stadium in Seattle, the museum and the aquarium, Ellen, Ellie's love of space versus Abby's fear of heights and so on. Can you talk about how you want the two halves of the game to reflect each other?

[01:31:13] Neil Druckmann says with the first game, the exciting thing was role reversal. You're playing as the archetypal hero for a while. And then at a certain point we flip it and you play as Ellie seeing how well that worked was so much of the inspiration here. And when we decided to make a game about empathy, we knew we had to double down on that feeling to structure the entire thing around getting you to connect with unexpected characters. You're already connected with Ellie and Joel from the last of us. So we put them through a very tragic event, give you one look at a quest for revenge,

[01:31:43] and then shift to Abby in order to tell a mirror story of redemption that follows the person who by killing Joel and avenging her father has already accomplished what Ellie's trying to do. And is struggling to come to grips with it. We were trying to find those parallels you're talking about and to do so in a way where it's not on the nose, but it's still showing you how these characters under different circumstances could have been friends. That kind of sums up what we just said in a couple hours,

[01:32:10] I think hour and a half a little more eloquently. Yeah. They say, why have players control Abby for a bit in Jackson before Joel's murder? Haley gross says we wanted the opportunity to build empathy for her from the start. And the most effective way we can do that is to have you walking in her shoes, spending time with her, seeing what makes her vulnerable, seeing what makes her scared. We get that she's scared of heights.

[01:32:39] We get that she has a soft spot for Owen and is upset about his romantic life. We get that there are intense stakes that might drive those two people apart. We wanted to inform all of that without you understanding that she's the prototypical antagonist, which I thought was really cool for it sort of to dawn on you. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. No, we didn't really even talk about that at the beginning playing, playing Abby. And,

[01:33:05] and I thought that was just an inspired mood, move that entire opening sequence of the, you guys sound like you've heard of me or heard. Yeah. Um, and if you play it a second time, it, it plays much differently because you know, everything. Well, even earlier, the moment you see Abby and, and Owen there, they're talking about,

[01:33:33] I think there's somebody here, you know, you, you know, they're here for somebody and there was no way you don't know who that is after you just watched that prologue. So it's, it's, Oh, I really enjoyed the beginning. Yeah. We didn't, we didn't talk much about the prologue, but I, I loved it. I mean, I didn't like Joel's death. I was terrible, but yeah, no, I mean,

[01:34:00] that's why we like these things and we don't want just lollipops and rainbows. No, I guess. All right. They go on many players and most parents might've understood Joel's decision at the end of the first game, but the last of us part two finds that Ellie herself is struggling to make sense out of it, which is another thing we didn't talk about. Like I, I had, I, the game makes you wonder does what, what if Ellie knew she was going to die and then it's revealed, Oh, she knows.

[01:34:30] And she says to Joel, you know, Hey, my life could have meant something. And you took that away from me. So now we know that Ellie would have chosen to go through with it, which makes sense. I mean, I think I would have to personally. Right. Yeah. And at the end of that game, that really did. I mean, at the first one that was, we, you and I discussed it. And so many people discussed it online. I mean, if you were a dad, chances are you agreed with Joel's decision. If you weren't, you're like, what the fuck? It's,

[01:34:58] or even if you put yourself in Ellie's position, well, that's what I'm saying. Like if I was Ellie, I would want them to take my life. If I knew it could, it could, there could be. And that's exactly what we saw. Abby said the same thing. I would want you to do it. She said that to her dad, Abby. Oh, Abby said she would want her to do it to her. Yeah. I didn't catch that part. Yeah. She said that to her dad. I'd want you to do it. He didn't, he didn't answer Marlene when,

[01:35:28] when Marlene asked him if it was your kid, would you do it? He didn't answer, but then she came in, Abby came in and said, got it. I'd want you to do it. So then, uh, this is interesting. So, you know, they say Ellie herself is struggling to make sense of it. It seems like she doesn't get all the way there until after the fight with Abby and Santa Barbara Druckmann responds, Joel has made this decision for Ellie and now she has to deal with the consequences of that choice. But again,

[01:35:56] I'm not putting a judgment on it because we do what we feel is right. And for Joel, the decision to choose Ellie or the vaccine was pretty consistent with his character. He's the same guy from the prologue of the first game when he refuses to pick up another family as he and his daughter, Sarah are driving out of Austin all the way to the end. He's willing to do whatever it takes to protect his tribe, which is, I mean, it's so interesting because yeah, like this whole thing of tribalism and then seeing other tribes as not human. Like I don't like that,

[01:36:25] but on the other hand, I totally understand it. And I would have probably done the same thing. I don't know. I'll go ahead and allow this to be my coda on this game, I guess. But I feel like these two games have tapped into the human condition in a way that very, very few player or a few games ever have. And I find that just impressive. Yeah. And it's the human condition.

[01:36:55] Yeah. They tap into. And that's yeah. Even like it's under these really extreme circumstances of life and death, but it still has something to say about our data day life, which is becoming more life and death as 2020 rolls on. But it's for the most part, not, you know, I mean, even when it's just about who you love and who you give chances to and how you look at different people and all about, you know, I mean, I love that, you know,

[01:37:24] as you said at the beginning, that this is a game that Neil Druckmann has said is about hate. And the first game was about love, but he also says in this interview, this is a game about empathy. It's a game about hate and about empathy. Well, yeah, absolutely. It's again, it's, oh, it's so many things. And that's, again, we're getting into the, the, the, the fact that this is a game that is really based on emotion, not necessarily the action sequence, not necessarily the, uh,

[01:37:53] the attention to detail in the, the environments or the extraordinarily fluid gameplay. Although that's all there. The real part of this game is the story and these emotions that we're feeling about it. And wow, that is impressive. Whether you love it or not, even if you hate it, you had an emotional response. Yep. Some people violently negative.

[01:38:23] This is true. Um, I've got more. So the game, they say the game's biggest plot twist is a subtle tweak in perspective. As we learned that Ellie has done the truth of what Joel did the whole time and chose to seek revenge against his killers. Anyway, that information drives a deeper wedge between Ellie and the player. Holly, Haley gross says Ellie's got survivor verse guilt and she's got PTSD and she's haunted by what she lost. She's haunted by what Abby took away from her.

[01:38:50] And also we come to realize she's haunted by what happened to her relationship with Joel after he told her the truth. And she was so hurt by it by piecing those details out. It allows us to be with this internal character who isn't much of a sharer. And it allows us to feel those memories coming back to her. She progresses through the narrative. It's also progressively contextualizes what's driving her. At first you think it's just fuck those people. They killed my father figure, but then you realize, well, how much does she feel culpable in this? How much does she think,

[01:39:18] does she feel like she took something away from Joel? And then Druckmann adds, there was a functional reason for those flashbacks too. We knew we weren't going to spend a lot of time with Joel on the front end of the game. So we needed to insert these moments to keep reminding you why Ellie is on this journey in the first place, but we didn't want to just have flashbacks that had nothing but sweetness. It felt like their relationship had to progress and couldn't stay static.

[01:39:40] Gross says the whole game is about the consequences of the choices we make and to do flashbacks that didn't unpack the consequences of Joel's choice and how it became this festering secret between he and Ellie that was dividing them and splitting them in two. That would have done a disservice to our theme. Druckmann says, I remember the fear of how much people love the ending of the first game because of how ambiguous it is. For years, people have been debating. Does Ellie know Joel is lying to him? Does she not know? Does she know he's lying, but she's willing to let it go because of how much she loves him?

[01:40:10] And it turns out it's kind of all of those things. We wanted each flashback to show that at first Ellie's in denial about it. And then it's this thing that's hanging over her relationship with Joel. So that explains why she's distant. And then she's starting to suspect something. And then she thinks she's thought she could let go, but she can't. And it's eating away at her until finally it blows up. Each step of the way, we wanted you to think that Ellie's relationship with Joel ended on a different note. You think Joel died thinking Ellie hates him.

[01:40:39] And then at the very end of the game, we reveal something different with that last beat. Structuring those flashbacks was a process. Initially, they were all over the place out of order. And so much of the writing work that Haley did was really good. That was untangling all of it and simplifying it. So I guess that last beat he's talking about is when she says she wants to try to forgive him. Yeah. Yeah. No. And that, and that's just it is where we are led to believe that the last thing

[01:41:09] that Joel and Ellie exchange was one of anger and hate. When we find out it was one of forgiveness. I'm glad in the door. Right. Exactly. Come on, give us a little like niceness in this. Okay. There's some more interesting ones here. So I was just looking through whether I want to continue, but I think you'll like this. So talking about, you know, the structure and the creation of the game and stuff.

[01:41:38] Druckmann says there's so many emotional parts of the game that for a long time didn't land. And every time it's so daunting to make them work. So often it's just the iterative process of creation and cutting out a bunch of stuff that we realized wasn't necessary. What comes to mind right now is Joel's death. In the first edit of that scene, you felt nothing. Ellie's being held down and Joel's looking at her. And we had this idea of like, Oh man, Joel's brain is so fucked up at that moment that the only word that's coming out of his mouth is his daughter's name, Sarah.

[01:42:08] It felt powerful. But then Troy Baker, the voice actor to his credit was like, I don't think he should say anything. We shot both versions and Troy was right. This scene was stronger without it. Do you agree? Yeah, no, I don't think he should have said a single word. I think just that look that he gives. Yeah. Just that he sees her was enough. Yes. I think if he would have said anything, it would have felt like a cheesy movie. Agreed. You know? Yep. And then he said nothing. Yeah.

[01:42:38] And then Haley gross says we used to have five days in Seattle for each girl instead of three. Druckmann says there was a whole side story where Ellie went to the Sarah fight Island. And we had so much more to say about the Sarah fights and Ellie's journey there. And she's going through like the different layers of hell and she still keeps going forward. Gross says, Joel had a girlfriend. The ending was different.

[01:43:01] And then Druckmann says for more than 50% of the production, Ellie used to kill Abby at the end, which gave a whole different kind of feeling to the ending. And then another character would have to stop the cycle of violence. But at some point through our conversations about Yara and Lev, we came to the realization that it wasn't as honest to Ellie's character that way. Deep down inside, there's goodness there. Hopefully she can go forward and build her life. I thought that was interesting.

[01:43:31] Nice. So they chose a little bit of forgiveness and kindness. Yeah. I mean, that felt right to me for the game. I mean, she, when she left Dina and the little baby and, and you felt like, man, she's destroying her, her happy ending here because of her obsession. Oh, she wasn't having a happy ending though. That's the thing. She was. Yeah, she wasn't. That's true.

[01:44:00] That's absolutely true. True. So I felt both of those things. Like she kind of had no choice, but she's also destroying this. But I feel like if she would have killed Abby, that would have just destroyed it for good. And now that she didn't, there's maybe a chance she can get it back. I don't know why I think that, but that's kind of how I feel. No, I feel like that was her, uh, her realization that this just has to end that her killing Abby. Wouldn't solve anything. It's not going to bring Joel back.

[01:44:29] It's not going to bring all these people back and all it's going to do is leave Lev without somebody to take care of him. Yeah. And it's just possibly filled with vengeance himself. Exactly. And that's the cycle of violence. And that's exactly, I think what this game is, is really getting at. I think that's what that ending is really all about is that. Yeah. She's needed to let go of her guilt.

[01:44:56] She's needed to let go of the death of Joel because that's what's haunting her. Yeah. So when I go, when I'm like about to kill my enemy, I hope I'll remember Ellie's example. You know, she's an example. Well, she is. And I, and I was, and I was really frustrated with this game and I think I'll leave it with this. I mean, one of the things that, that, that I hated most about this game is me finding Ellie to be an absolute horrible fucking monster.

[01:45:27] Devoid of humanity to a certain degree. And that's frustrating because that's somebody that I really love and I hated seeing her going down that route. And, but that's what we saw her go. And I don't know if it was the second or third dog I killed where I'm just like, I don't feel right about this. Um, and I did. And I really felt, especially during that first half of the game, I'm like, I'm not going to replay this.

[01:45:55] But after playing Abby and the conclusion of the game, I felt, okay, there's replayability here. There's something, there's a bigger story. There's something really immense. The ending of, of these things matter so much to how you end up feeling about it. Despite what you may have felt during. Yeah, no. Oh, oh, and did you notice? I don't think we already talked about this, but we may have. Did you notice the, the withered body of Abby at the end?

[01:46:25] Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Hard not. We did. I think we did talk about this, but I mean, it's, I don't know. There was something about that. And again, her running straight to Lev right away before doing anything else. There was such a humanity. She was so vulnerable there. Yeah. Yeah. I got two more here. So they say, is there any chance she can reconcile with Dina? Haley Gross says, in spite of all that Ellie's been through, I want her to find love and support and a community and a sense of safety.

[01:46:56] Whether or not that's possible in the last of us universe, given how hostile it is and how you can always lose the people and the fragility of everything. I'm not sure, but I want that for her. And also that baby is damn cute. And then last they ask, it's probably too soon to discuss the last of us part three, but let's discuss the last of us part three. And Druckmann says, I'll be a little vague and cagey as you can expect, but I think the

[01:47:22] test for whether or not to make part three would have to be a similar test to what we did with part two. With the first game, there were no expectations and it was like we could do anything. But now that we've established certain characters and themes and processes, it felt like to justify making part two, we had to do something not that fans would just be comfortable with, but do something that would match the emotional core we found in the first game. And without that, there'd be no reason to do a part three. Finding it with a sequel was much harder than it was with the first game.

[01:47:52] And going forward, it would be exponentially harder to justify going back to that world and finding a way to vary things up. There's already so many things you've seen about the backstory and how the outbreak happens. So we'd really have to figure out how to create a new experience that matches the emotional impact of these stories. And I don't know what it is currently. I personally say, if you can't figure out something that you feel in your heart, Neil Druckmann, that is a part three, then just don't do it. Exactly.

[01:48:22] If it's not a story that you feel does not need to be, or does need to be told, yeah, just don't do it. Whatever, whatever it is. Yeah, it's fine. I felt that way after the first game, too. For sure. And at the same time, I'm really glad they did this. Yeah. They found a worthy story. I think so. Yeah. I'm so glad you feel this way, by the way. I was very concerned that we were going to be on opposite ends of this. Oh, at odds. I mean, we were a little different, you know?

[01:48:51] You seem to like Abby more, and I'm more on the early side. This is true. But we both love the game, and it makes for a good conversation, so it's good. That's what matters. We both love the game. That's cool. Yes. I wouldn't get worried about that. Let's move on to your guys' thoughts. We didn't get a lot, but we've got a few good ones. Here's Listener Moans, Grones, and Grunts. All right. The first one we have here is from Jonathan Buccalil.

[01:49:17] I've been playing it past the first arc, and I have a feeling that I'm still waiting for it to start. Beautiful and atmospheric, but I feel like I don't have much impact on events. There's the odd zombie battle, but they're short and lack tension. I don't find the relationship with Dina and Ellie as compelling as her relationship with Joel, but we'll see. Enjoying, but not loving, yet. I totally get that.

[01:49:42] For one thing, I think because The Last of Us had such a big reputation that they felt like with the second game, they could take even more time getting into the meat of the story. So they did. It took more time to get to it. It took a while. I'll be curious to see what you think now, Jonathan, that you played more of the game. Carl Jackson says, There's a lot of internet outrage over this game.

[01:50:11] Some of it is justified, and a lot of it is the usual overreaction by some who haven't even played the game. The change in tone makes me miss the first game, for sure. I do not care for the first part of the game, and it's not because of what happens, but because of how it happens. I think he's talking about... Well, I guess we shouldn't spoil in this part because people might have skipped ahead. Yeah, no, we can't spoil in this part. Yeah, yeah. It kind of feels cheap, and it feels rushed, like the writers were not sure if they were getting a third game and wanted to hurry up and finish Ellie's story.

[01:50:39] If this was the third game in the trilogy, I would have felt better with it. As far as the game itself, I'm enjoying it, though. I mean, I would just say to that that this is a story about that event, so they needed to have that event to kick off the story. Yeah, and at the same time, I also feel like these things don't happen. They're not necessarily drawn out. Life happens really quickly sometimes, and you're like, oh shit, my entire life's changed, and it just happened in this one split second.

[01:51:08] So I feel like that what you are referring to, which we are avoiding, reflected that very well. Next letter here is from Reese Gwynn. I'm going to try to be as spoiler-free as possible, so apologies if this is a little too vague. Oh my god, Reese, it's so tough, isn't it? I agree. I know what you're saying. I really do. It's hard. Let's see. I finished it Sunday night.

[01:51:38] I love the way that the game handles the different types of relationships between its characters. You really feel Ellie's hatred towards Redacted, her love for Dina, and her complicated and mad at them, but still love them feelings towards Redacted. And that's not even getting into the story from the second half of the game. Everything mixes together and is something that I think is really unique, not just for video games, but for storytelling as a whole. Damn straight. That's me.

[01:52:07] They really give you a lot of good angles for peering into this world and its characters, giving you an understanding of why everyone does what they do and feels the way that they do. And one thing that I think the game absolutely nails is getting across the point that being good or bad, right or wrong, justified or unjustified, is often a matter of perspective, which something the Walking Dead also tried to do before. True.

[01:52:35] The only other thing I'll add is that I was in literal tears at the end. It's a brutal game, but a beautiful and really relatable one too. I think this is something that will stick with me for a long time, and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone who's played the first game and left behind. Ooh, yes. Thank you very much, Jonathan Bukalil. Oh, that was Reese. No, no, no, that was Reese Gwynn. Sorry, I'm scrolling quickly.

[01:53:05] That was great. Thanks, Reese. Yeah, that was great, man. Appreciate you. I think I just found my new best friend. Sensitive to the spoilers, and that was just a really good. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for Redacted. Thank you. Very good, Redacted. All right. That's our show, episode 397. Thanks for listening, everyone. Thanks for coming on, Eric. That was super fun. Oh, that was great, too. 397. Really?

[01:53:36] 397. Right? And you know what else? The way it all works out, our 400th episode is going to line up pretty much exactly with our 10-year anniversary. Oh, that's cool. That's great, dude. So Karen's going to be on for that. Nice. Everybody listening, I mentioned it last episode, and we've gotten a few voice messages, but I want to hear from more people.

[01:54:04] So please, you know, send us, email us a voice message or call into our number and just say whatever you want to say about, you know, your experience with the podcast or whatever. Oh, I remember leaving. I remember leaving some weepy-eyed thing on episode 140. And, you know, then after that, it's kind of like, yeah, whatever. But no, we're expecting something from you, too. From me? Oh, gosh. Okay, maybe. It doesn't have to be weepy.

[01:54:34] It probably won't be. I don't get too weepy these days. Although, hold on. I did get weepy when, oh, we're out of spoiler territory. When somebody sniffs somebody's shirt. Yeah, we didn't talk about that, but I cried there. Yeah, there were some really moving moments of the game.

[01:55:02] And that's, I've said this on the podcast a few times, but like when people complain about quote-unquote filler episodes or that the plot wasn't moved forward. Yeah. Yeah, what I care more about is if I feel something. If it does that, I don't care if the plot moved forward at all. And it just, this game gives you that in spades. And that was one of the moments that gave me that.

[01:55:27] Oh, and that was the point where I had already cried a few tears, but that point, I'm just like, one of those moments. But, uh, but back to what I was saying before, I really do. I really would love to hear from you guys for our 400th or just, you know, if you have any comments about anything we're covering. So if you want to call us, you can reach us as usual at 650-485-DEAD. That's 650-485-3323.

[01:55:55] And you can email us at brains at podcast.com. Find us on the web at facebook.com slash deadcast. And be sure to check out our other shows at podcast.com. Yeah. I mean, basically the way that I've structured my podcasting life these days is my Walking Dead cast is all about Walking Dead. And then during the breaks, other dark and horrifying things like Last of Us 2. And, uh, then, yeah.

[01:56:23] And then, and then I have another podcast, a second one house podcast where I cover everything else. Right now to counteract the heaviness of the times we've decided to cover Cobra Kai, which is really fun. That's cool. Super cool. And it's just been announced that it's moving over to Netflix. Netflix, they, there was a bit more and yeah, they're going to bring the first two seasons over too. And there's a third one dropping soon. Oh, I'm so happy for you. This is like your, your childhood, uh, favorite thing.

[01:56:52] And it, I thought it was going to suck ass too, but it's actually brilliant and I love it. And so Richard and Reem, my friend Richard and Reem and I are covering the first two seasons now. Richard's in on it. Cool. Yeah. He, he, I mean, you know, we're, we watched that back in the day together. And then, um, if you want to hear our Cobra Kai coverage, you can go to house podcastica.com and there's links to different area places where you can find that podcast.

[01:57:22] Be fun to have more people in on that. Um, the other thing I want to mention that we've been trying to mention lately before we sign off is voting. And I just want to stress how important it is in some States you can vote by mail. You might need to register to vote by mail. And there's nothing wrong or weird about voting by mail. It's completely normal in California for years. I always, many States have been doing that.

[01:57:50] Utah has been voting for mail for years. There's nothing corrupt about it. There's nothing weird about it. It's perfectly fine. It's democratically. Don't believe the bullshit. I seriously and Corona time vote by mail. If you want to register to vote or even just find out whether you're registered and I'm pretty sure even you can find out what your state stance is on voting by mail and how to get involved in that. Go to vote, save America.com vote, save America.com.

[01:58:20] Why am I bringing this up? We're an entertainment podcast. Um, but I also feel like the, these times are really serious. And if I can get any of you guys who might not have voted to vote, I'll be so proud of that. And I just love to know that I did my part to help. You know, I, I know that people are hearing my voice right now. And so I feel a responsibility to just say vote. Vote. Vote.

[01:58:50] Yeah. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Resquin. All right. Here I am back in the present day. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening to this, everyone. I hope you enjoyed it. Next episode will be Lucy and me doing a last of us season one catch up to remind you of what's happened and where we are in the story. Cheers.