21: "Safe" (S5E10)

[00:00:00] I feel so hopeful, don't you? And honestly it'll just be nice to have a friendly face in the house of Joseph. That's not my name. Pardon? We're not friends. Do you really think that we're friends?

[00:00:34] I think that you are one of the worst people I have ever known. I am not your friend. I hate you, Naomi. How can you not know that? Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And this is The Handmaids Tale Podcast.

[00:01:14] This week we're covering The Handmaids Tale, Season 5, Episode 10, Safe, the Season 5 finale. It's interesting because when after I watched the episode for the second time, I just started thinking about what to safe means to people.

[00:01:33] In your general everyday life and what it means to the people on the show. Because I feel like some of them have never been or felt safe for more than maybe five or ten minutes. Since Gilead, yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:49] Yeah, like June went to Canada. I think she was safe for a while, but she was also in PTSD mode. But now she's not safe. No. Now it's funny. This show, when I've watched it, I've had all range of emotions.

[00:02:12] I haven't really been emotional or as emotional as I was during this episode. There were just certain things that happened that you realize how invested you are and how much you care about the people.

[00:02:25] Especially those that are really in a situation that is no fault of their own. That's the show. That's the show. So we can get started. We might as well just dive right into it because quite a bit to talk about.

[00:02:44] I am going to go first because it's my turn. So I want to talk a little bit about right at the beginning of the show, the situation that we find June in where she gets a delivery from FedEx, not FedEx, but Canadian FedEx. That is a bulletproof vest.

[00:03:13] And it I think escalates the situation to the point where we don't know what that as soon as she receives it, we're not sure or clear on how many people have died from the shooting that happened a week before or a few days before.

[00:03:28] We just know that at this point June is going to have to wear a bulletproof vest. It's really clear that after that, that things have really escalated and I feel like June. I'm not sure that she's ever felt safe completely.

[00:03:45] I think she's had these moments where she has felt comfortable and has enjoyed situations like she and Luke have had a couple of dates that have been, you know, somewhat more normal to real life prior to Gilead.

[00:04:02] But I think that this bulletproof vest and her putting it on and Luke seeing her in it, it really shows you how serious the situation has gotten. She seemed maybe a little blase about it, but I guess because of everything she's been through.

[00:04:20] It's like, yeah, I'm going to go into another memorial. But my first thought before I had a chance to really think was she was going on submission or something. Oh, I think it connected right away that she's not safe any longer. Yeah.

[00:04:37] And that's why she needed that bulletproof vest. I think when in the episode last season where she steps off the boat into Canada and accepts asylum, she probably felt safe then. And it's just so sad that she thought this was a place of safety and it's not.

[00:05:01] No, it's very clear as the episode progresses that the Canadians have had enough and they don't want the Americans there, especially in Toronto. I'm not sure how it is in the rest of the country, but it seems like in Toronto they don't want any of them there.

[00:05:20] They want them out and it's really haunting to me to see the signs and the people in the neighborhood are packing to move out. And you just look at that and think, how did it get to this point?

[00:05:39] Because as you said, Wendy, when June 1st got there, things did seem like they were okay. Certainly relatively in comparison to where she came from. Yeah, but it's definitely escalated over the last however long this has been.

[00:05:57] I'm not sure about the timeline as far as how many months we're looking at. I don't think it's been a year. I don't know. I don't think maybe it's hard to tell the timing, but Hannah's gotten older. And Nicole looked like she was probably too.

[00:06:16] Yeah, that's a good point. At one point they asked June how old she was and she said 21 months. Oh yeah. Yep, that's right. So I think it's been a year at least. Okay. So this is the situation. This is how fast it can escalate to this point.

[00:06:37] I have so many notes for this episode that like I can't find what I'm looking for anymore because I have something on safety in here, but I don't know where it is. I have a lot. This episode gave me a lot of questions.

[00:06:50] Like I just kept asking, is this, is it what we saw or is there something more? Is there something underlying that we haven't seen and we're just now? It's causing me to question things that I thought I knew.

[00:07:06] I think what's interesting is we didn't really see the beginnings of Gilead. We saw some flashbacks, but the series kind of starts when Gilead is already full-fledged Gilead. And so now we're kind of seeing how it probably went down similarly to what's happening in Canada right now.

[00:07:27] Yeah, it's kind of scary if you think about it. There are things that happen in this episode that remind me of present day activities and that made it even worse.

[00:07:40] Well, we're recording this on the eve of the midterm elections and I can never quite figure out why it feels so different to me.

[00:07:49] Then when I was younger, is it because when I was younger, I was just so busy with my life with raising young children or being a teenager? Or is it different because it's different now? Yeah, I think it's both.

[00:08:05] But it's definitely different because trust in our institutions has crumbled because of lies about election fraud and it's causing people to want to commit violence towards election workers, which is fucked up. Right. I mean election poll workers were senior citizens who volunteered their time and...

[00:08:25] Right. I'm working the polls tomorrow, but I'm in San Francisco so I'm pretty safe. I know, but I'm not saying you're a senior citizen, Jason. Thanks a lot. Pretty close. But it felt so benign. It was something people went and joked and it's so heavy now.

[00:08:43] It's an indication of distrust in our institutions and there's always been some amount of, oh, those government people, but it's to the point where people will go and attack the Capitol. And so that feels like we could be on the cusp of some...

[00:09:00] We've never had our country transform into something like Gilead before, so it feels like it can never happen, but it always feels like that until it happens. Yeah. I think that's probably why the last few episodes being as timely as that have been, have been...

[00:09:21] I just find myself very emotional about it and it's weighing heavily on me. And to be honest with you, as much as I love this show and I loved the finale, I'm kind of glad for break of it all.

[00:09:34] Yeah. I feel like we need time to process it. Yeah. You know? It's been a great season, but I'm happy with you. Yeah. And I love you guys and I've enjoyed podcasting with you. Oh, yeah. Well, we can just get together and record anything.

[00:09:49] We'll talk about how Jason's old. We can do a Ted Lasso podcast. We need to do a Ted Lasso podcast. I'm also... Later on, we'll be back in the spring sometime doing yellow jackets. Yeah. We'll get to some lighter topics like cannibalism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super easy.

[00:10:07] I'm broken that. So that's my opening point, that it kind of set the tone for... Or it started at the top and then it rolled downhill from there. So Jason, would you go next with your first point? Sure. So it's June Attacked and the episode is called Safe.

[00:10:32] And it's about all the characters not feeling safe. But right now we'll talk about June with her bullet-proof vest, going to another memorial service. She's supposed to do the prayer. And I presume she's going to memorial services like Mark for people...

[00:10:50] For the servicemen who died in the raid on Hannah's school, right? But I wondered if her doing the prayer... I thought... Is that am I wrong about that? I think she's going to funerals also for potentially people who died in the shooting.

[00:11:09] I thought they were saying 19 people were killed in the shooting. Yeah. I think it's for that. So that was a memorial for people who died in the raid, right? But now it's for people... They're going to more memorials for people who died at the memorial? Maybe both.

[00:11:26] I don't know. They said they had captured the gunmen. They said they had captured the gunmen, so... Yeah. Oh gosh. Either way, I wondered if she's supposed to be doing the prayer. Is that part of her being more public like Mark was suggesting last time or just because

[00:11:45] she's connected to the people who are lost? I don't know. I feel like she might feel a connection, not necessarily feeling responsible for what happened, but I mean it could be both, I guess. Yeah. I think she probably does feel responsible because all indications are pointing that

[00:12:08] they were there to take her out. So yeah, Mark shows up, as you guys said, said they found the gunmen and I would say once this episode is over, it's pretty clear that Gilead is instigating this. At this point it wasn't totally clear.

[00:12:29] I mean you may say, oh I knew it was Gilead, but he's a Canadian citizen. He works at a bakery. He's an angry man, as Mark said, 56 year old. And we know the Canadians are already angry about the American refugees, but later Lawrence makes it pretty clear.

[00:12:45] Like when Nick's blamed Lawrence for the shooting, he kind of denied it, but it seemed like a non-denial type of denial. And then after the truck hit June and Nick went and punched Lawrence, he said, Commander, it wasn't me.

[00:12:57] It wasn't my decision, which basically says that was someone else's decision and he knew about it. So these are coming through Mackenzie. Mackenzie has wanted this for weeks. He's been talking about this on other episodes of the show. So it's not that much of a surprise. No.

[00:13:19] And they linger on, the camera lingers on him for a bit after that. It's interesting that they're able to mobilize these people who, probably this was a guy who was angry about the American refugees because he's a Canadian citizen, you know, but Gilead can somehow mobilize them.

[00:13:39] I thought the direction was really interesting and great. In this episode, they had a bunch of dream-like sequences, interesting things with framing and focus and sound design, kind of warping to show disorientation and stuff. It was directed by Elizabeth Moss and written by Bruce Miller.

[00:13:58] And one example of that before Mark showed up to tell them they found the gunman, there's a moment where June's framed by this lovely sunlit kitchen window and takes a drink of tea, and it's unusually quiet except for the birds.

[00:14:11] And I took that as like kind of you were saying, Daphne, this is like the last quiet, peaceful moment she's going to be having in a while. Like take this in audience because it's about to end, you know, her last nice moment in Canada.

[00:14:24] It's gonna go down and it's gonna go down hard. Yeah. So then Mark comes in and tells her that and then walks her out and now she's in the middle of the road looking around and it's quiet and I'm nervous.

[00:14:40] And I think they did that to us, right? On purpose. And she spends time looking around and it's like, oh, oh wait, we know that there were cars driving by almost running them over before when they were scraping the paint off the sidewalk

[00:14:55] and now she's in the middle of the road. I'm like, go inside. And then you see the lights come on at the truck behind her and almost made it feel like Mark set her up.

[00:15:04] I know that's not true, but pulled her out into the middle of the street because otherwise how would this guy know that he would have the opportunity to but maybe she goes for walks. I don't know or walks down the store.

[00:15:15] He was parked. You could see his truck when she first looks. Right. He was parked waiting for her and he obviously waited for Mark to leave. Yeah, I think he just, but how did he know she was going to be there? Right.

[00:15:26] I guess he was just waiting for her to come out at any moment. Well, that's her house. Yeah, he was just waiting for the opportunity. Mark outside my house. Never. I leave my house from the garage in the car.

[00:15:35] If somebody was waiting to run me over, they'd be waiting all year long. Can I tell you that I was scared for Mark? I thought his car was going to blow up. Oh, wow. I was so nervous because if they're after June,

[00:15:49] I mean, Mark has been so instrumental in the American government with everything that's gone on. I was concerned for him at that moment. I didn't think about that, but that would have been so devastating. Yeah. When it flipped and it was actually the big red truck and yeah,

[00:16:08] the symbolism really. I was waiting for him to come back. I was waiting for him to come back and when we just kind of heard on the periphery that somebody was doing something, I thought it was Mark at first.

[00:16:22] So then the truck comes and it hits her and we saw it. We saw it dead on. It was pretty shocking. I'm surprised it didn't run her over. It kind of stopped right there. I don't know why just to knock her down and then it.

[00:16:41] But then because it planned to run her over, like it wasn't just about knocking her down. It was to take her out completely. It stopped and did not run her over. So I wondered why it did not run her over,

[00:16:53] but then he backs up and takes another run and runs over her arm. Then it started to feel really dreamlike. I mean, first of all, the Beach Boys Kokomo playing, which is quite a juxtaposition.

[00:17:04] My friend Sybil was in a her car flipped on a country road when we were teenagers and what was it? Sad but true by Metallica was playing Sad but true. And she's okay. She's okay.

[00:17:20] But she was she had to wear one of those neck braces for a long time. Like a screwed into her head. A halo. Yeah, she's okay now. But anyway, it reminded me of that. Then you just see her eye and the song kind of warps and becomes clear

[00:17:35] with the other sounds drowned out and she's looking up at the sky for a second. And then the engine's revving again and the truck's coming at her what looks like will kill her. But then it stops and then you see, she's looking under the truck.

[00:17:49] It's all from her point of view. Luke fighting this guy, beating the crap out of him. Like, yeah, fucking kill that guy, which he ended up doing. Oh, that. Yeah, I was scared. You see from Gene's perspective and it's sound just the sounds are so like,

[00:18:01] you can tell he's doing some major damage and the guy hits the road and you see, I think if I remember right, you kind of see his mangled face and for a split second he and June are kind of looking eye to eye.

[00:18:12] But we didn't really get a good look at this guy. I thought he was a goner at that point. I didn't think he was going to live because he almost had a vacant look in his eye at that point.

[00:18:22] So I thought it was like a dead man already and Luke is just, he's not going to be, he's not going to sit back anymore. If he feels like he was so helpless for so long that he bought a gun. If something like this happens,

[00:18:39] he's going to come in and kill the guy and he doesn't care. So then she goes to the hospital but then back at home, she's asleep and there's more dream like direction as she's waking. There's weird underwater like sounds and the camera's turning

[00:18:55] and coming down on her from above as it turns slowly. The earlier it had done a reverse movement when she went to sleep, turning the other way and going up. It's really interesting as she wakes up,

[00:19:06] we see the lamp coming into focus and she's sitting next to it. And then you finally hear the faint voices of Rita, Luke and Moira arguing in the other room. She goes downstairs, finds out this guy died and Luke may be in trouble.

[00:19:18] So now Luke is not safe. They could be coming with a warrant and June's like we have to get out of here. That's where she says this country's changing. I mean, I guess I'm just reading what happened but it's so impactful. They're aiming to go to Hawaii,

[00:19:38] which we know is like one of the last bastions of the United States government. But then Mark is like, you can't go to the airport and send them out on a train. He says they're putting them on trains to go west.

[00:19:51] And I thought west in Canada, like is there another place for them to stay there? But I think it was just to go to another place to then catch a plane to Hawaii because I think to go to Vancouver. When she's on the train.

[00:20:03] Yeah, yeah, she says to Nicole, you know, we're going to Hawaii. So anyway, last thing I'll say about all that is kudos to Mark man. He's in there trying to help as much as he can, you know, get him out of there, get him safe at everything.

[00:20:16] I think you may feel a little bit bad for the predicament that they're in just. It's not his fault that it's happening, but I think he feels responsible for them. I think he wants them to be safe.

[00:20:30] And he's made it clear also that June is like important that she's very important stays in the US and is a symbol of the refugee escaping and being OK, you know. Yeah, I think any pipe dreams about June going to New Bethlehem and seeing Hannah are long gone.

[00:20:50] Yeah. I liked how June reminded Luke, you know, it wasn't like this before. You know, these are things that happened while we were living in the US before Gilead took over. Doesn't happen till it happens. And this time we're not going to stay.

[00:21:10] We're not just going to stay and hope it gets better. We got to get out. I didn't totally get that. So maybe you guys can help me with it. I mean, the situation in Canada to me is that the Canadians are upset that there's refugees.

[00:21:26] Usually when that happens, it's because the people who live there feel like the refugees are taking up their resources. And it's not necessarily about like the country is changing the way the US did with Gilead.

[00:21:42] I mean, it feels similar because it's a huge upheaval for these refugees, right? But it's a different situation unless I'm missing something. I think it's hitting them in multiple different ways. I think the escalation of the Gilead theology in the Canadian society and then add to this,

[00:22:05] this very aggressive anti-immigration stance and the birth rate dropping and Gilead seems or at least they have good PR in that they seem to be improving the birth rate and Canada's not allegedly. And I think it's all creating the perfect boiling point for Canada.

[00:22:30] To me, I agree with you. It felt like two different things. The resurgence or the supporters of Gilead and the good PR. We'd seen a lot this season, but then lately we've seen just people mad about the refugees.

[00:22:51] But yeah, I think you're right that it all mixes together. I'm sure there's people mad about the refugees who don't want Canada to be Gilead too. Right. And I think we saw the protesters that were protesting, the people protesting the Gilead fertility center.

[00:23:09] And it was that same aggressive protest, violent protesting. So it just seems like it's a change in the politics of Canada. That does feel like here, blue versus red, just people digging into their ideologies and feeling like they hate the other side.

[00:23:35] If you get rid of all the people that remind you that something bad happened in the United States, then it might be easier to infiltrate and change the country to be more pro Gilead.

[00:23:52] Because there's no one going to be there to remind you of all the negativity that happened. And also if you're already pro Gilead, if you want Canada to take on the characteristics of Gilead, then the refugees who left Gilead are going to be your enemy.

[00:24:11] Yeah, they're going to be a problem. Yeah, you got to get rid of them. So right now, they're on a similar side by wanting to get them out of dodge basically. Just get them out of here. We don't want them here.

[00:24:25] It's sad to see them go to such terrifying ways of doing it. Like running over June and shooting, whether or not June was the focus of the shooting at the memorial. Other people died. So this is just going to continue to escalate. Mm-hmm. Yep, more violence.

[00:24:54] It seems like Canada's got a lot of problems. And this is just one that they just don't have time to deal with any longer. I mean, we see that happen where sometimes that's the reason why we got out of Afghanistan.

[00:25:13] It wasn't because we weren't needed there or because we weren't doing good things there. It was because the powers that be decided that we can't police the world. I get both sides of that argument. But we abandoned a lot of people that needed us in Afghanistan.

[00:25:30] And some that are in more trouble than they would have been because they were loyal to the US. Absolutely. I mean, we changed society. And I also get both sides of that, by the way. I'm not saying... Yeah, I get both sides. Right. We can't...

[00:25:49] I mean, I'm sure some people would say we can, but it seems like we can't fix the world. One country can't fix the world. And usually when we try, we fuck it up. Yeah. So...

[00:26:04] I think it's really interesting how when Margaret Atwood wrote the book, she based it on so much of things that had happened in the past. And the show really has continued to follow that tradition, whether it wanted to or not. These are the things that have ended...

[00:26:23] I mean, it's still pulling at things that are happening or have happened in the past. I agree. And I think this is also targeted to present day as well. Yeah. And I think they want to make you uncomfortable. And they do. They really do.

[00:26:40] We were just talking about how when it's over, it's going to be over for the season. I have felt more uncomfortable in the last couple of weeks, especially with the things happening on the show.

[00:26:55] I love this show for the message and for the story it's telling and how it brings these things to the forefront. However, I need to let my anxiety go down for a little bit. Jason, did you have anything else to add to that point? Nope. All right.

[00:27:14] Miss Wendy. I'm just going to continue in the same vein. The refugees are scared. They're getting out of dodge. Do we know where they're going? Are they going to New Bethlehem? Or are they just going elsewhere?

[00:27:32] It wasn't clear, but obviously a lot of people are packing up in this neighborhood that must have been sort of an enclave for the refugees. Yeah. I didn't even consider that, but I bet just some of them are going to New Bethlehem for sure.

[00:27:48] I thought the running over of June was incredibly graphic. Yeah. Most shows don't go to those lengths, but it was really graphic. Even just like I'm a nurse, I've always been fascinated by medical trauma and surgery and things like that.

[00:28:06] Just even the way she pulled her arm back. So awful and realistic. And even though I was pretty sure they weren't going to kill off June Osborn in this episode, I still like it really got me and made me fear.

[00:28:27] It was certainly testing my beliefs and that she might die. I was genuinely terrified. The truck had a sticker on the back of it that looked like a symbol of Gilead. I didn't notice that. Yeah. I didn't know if we'd seen it before or not.

[00:28:45] And Luke says in the aftermath of all this, Luke says this isn't going to be like Boston. They are both haunted about what happened to them in Gilead. They lost their daughter, they lost years of their life to what happened to them, they lost years of their marriage.

[00:29:02] June was raped, forced to get pregnant and have a child. Their lives have been demolished by the wrecking ball of Gilead. And it just reminded me, we keep talking about things that have happened in history. It just reminded me of the Jews who stayed in Nazi Germany.

[00:29:19] They were reluctant to leave their home. They couldn't believe that their country could sink to the depths that it ultimately did. And June and Luke waited too long that first time to run from Gilead and they paid dearly for it. And June's right. They can't wait this time.

[00:29:37] They can't wait for it to get worse. They need to run. And Mark comes to keep his side of the bargain that he promised Nick.

[00:29:49] He would help keep June safe, although I like to think he would have been there regardless of any deal that he made with Nick. I think he would have. I think he has, I think he feels a personal stake in this. Yeah.

[00:30:03] And I think he needs June to stay under the US flag. Yeah. I did feel for Mark. We don't know a lot about Mark's personal history or his background, but it seems obvious that he's a patriot in every way that word is used.

[00:30:22] And he cares very much about the survival of the US and it's not going well. No. And it made me really sad for him. You can see like he's a really intense guy to start with and you could see like he was under an incredible amount of pressure.

[00:30:39] He's had a bad few days. Yes. And he just says, he says he's, he's tired and June's tired. They're tired. I mean, they've been through it. He says that American refugees are flocking to Canada and Canada doesn't want them anymore. No one wants them.

[00:31:01] And that's just how sad is that I can't imagine what that feels like. I mean, we come from such a privilege of living in such a relatively stable country all these years.

[00:31:15] And, you know, I just, I can't imagine what that feels like not forget having a house, forget having, you know, but you just don't know where you're going to be able to raise your children the next month, the next year. That has to feel horrifying.

[00:31:34] The idea of just going somewhere and hoping that everyone doesn't hate you and that you'll be able to find a way to survive.

[00:31:43] It sounds so horrible and it's interesting to see that being portrayed with the Americans as the refugees because that's never the case in the real world so far knock on wood.

[00:31:54] And so, you know, maybe watching that can give people more of a sense of empathy for refugees around the world. Yeah, it's such a flip. It's such a flip. And I think the symbolism of it, it's just, yeah, it really hit me in this episode.

[00:32:13] This episode affected me probably more than any other episode this season. It was very intense. I couldn't put my finger on it but it felt like a lot of things happened, you know.

[00:32:26] It felt like it was a lot of seesawing emotions. But I just couldn't help but feel for the refugees, you know, they fled Gilead and now they're fleeing Canada and it just has to feel awful.

[00:32:40] And you know, I'm a big history buff, read lots about World War II in the Holocaust and that happened time and time again, you know.

[00:32:52] Jewish people fled from Germany to Holland and then the Nazis came and took Holland over and fled from there and it just went on and on and on and there was just no safe place for them.

[00:33:03] And you know, at the time during World War II, the United States and Canada limited how many Jewish people we would take here. That's how Israel got started. You know, it just so many parallels to what's happened in and you know, that was not that long ago.

[00:33:20] That was in the last 100 years that that happened. Yeah, that's it for me. Wow. I think the only thing I would add to that is I think this episode showed us really how far June and Luke have come this season as a couple compared to where they started.

[00:33:45] There is just this intense loyalty and love between them that it just, you know, it breaks your heart when you get to the end of the episode and they're forced to split.

[00:34:00] And they don't know when or if they'll ever see each other again. They may not either. They may not.

[00:34:08] And you just, yeah, you look at that and you think they may this may be the time that one of them dies or something happens and they just don't get to see each other again.

[00:34:18] And Luke, I for one don't think he had any intention of getting on that train. I think he went because he knew if he didn't that she wouldn't go.

[00:34:30] And he did this. I mean, I think he would have if it turns out, oh look, no cops here, but he probably thought that's unlikely.

[00:34:37] I think he thought even if he got on the train with her, she was safer by herself and he wasn't. Go to a different car. Yeah. And she really needed to leave.

[00:34:49] Yes, and the baby because yeah, they were not safe no matter what was going on. Say the situation was different and say that she hadn't even if she hadn't been run over by a truck this time it was going to happen based on the what I think is an assassination attempt at the memorial.

[00:35:14] So it was going to happen and her safety is so important they had to get her out.

[00:35:20] She yeah when she said we got to leave, she was on the right track there is like I am the target of assassination by Gilead and makes me all this makes me wonder how crowded is Hawaii. How many more people can they take?

[00:35:38] I have a note about that. I'm starting to think Alaska might be a little bit better. Yeah. Because it's more more room. Yeah, Hawaii's got to be starting to get crowded. I wonder why Moira didn't leave and maybe I wondered about that too.

[00:35:57] I think it might just be a story thing where they wanted you know, June to be by herself with the baby and then be connected with Serena at the end. But like yeah.

[00:36:09] I think to having Moira in Toronto while this is going on with Luke is like you said Jason story related.

[00:36:18] Yeah, I think it's good for Luke to have Moira there because she's been a support system for him for a long time and I think it's going to be important for him to have. I mean, is he going to be on the run? Where's he going to be?

[00:36:35] He's going to be in jail. Yeah. He's going to be in jail. Yeah, he's going to be in jail. So you know, we'll see. That's right. He gave himself up. Yeah, he gave himself up. Luke's in jail. He may be executed.

[00:36:49] Although you would think in Canada he would get a trial process that would at least take some time but yeah maybe they'll deport him. You don't know. To where? To Gilead. He's a refugee from Gilead. I don't think they would do that but. It depends if he.

[00:37:10] Wonder if Bruce comes yet. We're going to have to ask Bruce so many questions. What happens in season five? Six. We know five. Because when he came to Canada from Gilead did he say I'm an American citizen and I'm seeking asylum? Like there's stuff I don't know.

[00:37:34] That's true. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah and that's the thing and you're also at the mercy of the politics of Canada it could easily change, you know? Yeah. He could be okay today and not tomorrow.

[00:37:50] I mean if he's in trouble for murder he might not just be deported. Right. It also made me flash back to the scene with Emily and her wife. Yes.

[00:38:05] When they were at the airport trying to flee and because they were legally married it was allowable for them to both leave because Emily's wife, I can't remember her name now but she was a citizen of Canada so it was legal for them to leave

[00:38:24] but from the time that they left their house and got to the airport the rule had already changed and so that's as quick as it can happen sometimes. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah, it reminded me of that scene which was terrible.

[00:38:42] If you're watching and or same kind of shit's happening on that show that all the rules are changing in the galaxy. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Sentences are being doubled and stuff. Oh gosh, I thought that might be a better show to watch after this but I'm not sure now.

[00:39:00] It's a great show. I need something more like Ted Lasso I think to maybe I'll just rewatch Ted Lasso. I kind of feel like we need to continue down this the June story and really finish with June getting on the train

[00:39:22] and her encounter with someone a bit unexpected. And that was Serena because she heard the baby. She said, oh there's a baby and then she starts to walk and I see the blonde ponytail and I think, oh my God. So did Tuello get Serena on the train too?

[00:39:46] Absolutely he did. You know he did. That's what I thought too. Saint Mark Tuello. I wrote a note that Mark stashed both his best girls on the train.

[00:39:57] And you can just see June is just kind of like she has this look on her face that all I could think was, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Did you think it was going to be Serena? Oh yeah. As soon as I heard the baby.

[00:40:18] I kept waiting to hear it. Yeah I did. But up until then I was so unexpected. As soon as I heard the baby I thought about it. Yeah.

[00:40:28] No, I had a feeling but I didn't think that they would go there which is exactly why things like this happen. I mean especially given how this season started with them so at odds and the roller coaster ride it's been with these two.

[00:40:47] And now the look on Serena's face. She's like open faced. Hi you got a diaper which to me says hey we're in this together let's help each other out you know. Yeah.

[00:41:00] And she's still in her vulnerable mode so who knows but she seems more likable like you know after everything they went through and she also seems more like Yvonne Strahovsky if you've seen her in interviews. Yeah.

[00:41:13] She's really sweet you know so it's nice that she gets to play some of those sides of Serena. She looks happy too. Yeah. She looked humble, happy. It was so odd seeing her in jeans and tennis shoes you know with a ponytail like a different person.

[00:41:32] Well she's got to go incognito. Right. She's got to stay away from the fucking wheelers so do whatever has to be done to make that happen.

[00:41:42] And you know I was so wrapped up in the episode like completely wrapped up in it that it never even occurred to me while I was watching it that we haven't seen Serena yet. You know so. Yeah me neither. I should have known.

[00:41:56] I think it's good to me because I just kept saying please Bruce Miller don't put us through this episode and not show us where Serena is. Because I kind of wanted to know. I was so wrapped up with everything else that I. Me too.

[00:42:09] I didn't even think but then I think after if they hadn't shown her I would have been like oh yeah what happened to her. Yeah. My mind goes a million miles a minute when I'm watching shows like this.

[00:42:21] I'm always thinking about who have we seen, who haven't we seen, what are we doing. I'm not fun to go to the movies with. My fiancee can't stand it. That's how my husband is. He drives me crazy. He can't stand it. He's always like whispering stuff to me.

[00:42:34] Yeah. Stop. It's like I've given up. I just keep my mouth shut because Chris doesn't want to be spoiled and I may figure something out long before the end of the movie so I just keep my mouth shut. Yeah.

[00:42:47] He gets things really quickly, more quickly than I do so yeah he's the guy that leans over in the sixth sense and goes he's dead. Yep. Yes.

[00:43:00] So I just put things on my phone like I'll put a note on my phone and then I'll show him after and say hey look at this. I knew. I did figure it out.

[00:43:09] It's like I need the credit or something to prove that I was paying attention but. I'm like that sometimes but I think it's a testament to how great the show is when I'm totally wrapped up in it and I let it take me where it wants to go.

[00:43:23] Yeah you forget yourself. Yeah. So this, I liked how this was sort of a classic train goodbye scene almost. It felt, I felt like I was watching an old movie when they were on the phone and he's like you gotta get on that train baby.

[00:43:38] No I don't want you come. And then when she realized she's like come find me I love you. I love you and she said I love you Juno Osborne.

[00:43:46] I mean he said that and it was just really good to see them say that to each other or to hear them say it. Yeah because they've been up and down all season.

[00:43:54] I feel like they've been up and down all season and to get them to this point where they are so devoted to each other. And then for this to happen is so sad. Yeah. But I also. It's very walking dead.

[00:44:09] They say they love each other and then split apart forever maybe. Yeah we can't have nice things ever. Like don't ever expect anything nice. So I'm interested with where they're going to take it next season. The last season. One more season. Can't believe it.

[00:44:29] I had a question about this. How much involvement has Lawrence had? I mean if you think about it Lawrence has had a lot of involvement in the situation that these two are in now. Serena and June.

[00:44:44] Whether or not he decided to authorize or was not involved in the authorization of the assassination attempts. He's part of that government. He's part of that situation. And he's very dismissive of it. He's saying to Nick June supported infiltrating our country and stealing our children.

[00:45:10] I'm just like okay fuck you now because those are not your children and you know that and I thought you were better than that but you're not so that's what I say. Fuck him. No and we haven't gotten to that point yet but we are coming to it.

[00:45:22] But I just want to say that I just I just had the question do you think that Serena and June really know how much Lawrence has had to deal with the situations.

[00:45:32] The room because he forced Serena to go back to the wheelers and frankly I think Serena was not someone they wanted to deal with anymore anyway.

[00:45:44] The big thing that she did with Fred's funeral drew some positive attention but outside of that I think they wanted nothing to do. With her. At all other than what they could possibly get from her delivering her baby. And then after that that was it. To me.

[00:46:02] That's the big question. Of the ending. I thought it could be one of two ways.

[00:46:09] I thought they could be setting Lawrence up to be the villain for season six that last week we talked about who's going to be the villain for season six because Fred's gone Putnam's gone and Serena is not a villain anymore allegedly. And also what's the actor's name.

[00:46:25] Of Lawrence Bradley Whitford Bradley Whitford so good that I could see them wanting to set Lawrence up to be the villain just because of that. Absolutely because he's been our comic relief. He's been that one thing that's kept us. Let's see what else he's got you know. Yeah.

[00:46:41] He's a good villain. He is and I'm here for it if that's true. Yeah but I also thought there were weird things in those scenes that made me think that not everything is what we think it is.

[00:46:57] And I thought maybe Lawrence and Nick are actually still working together. I mean it was just this nagging feeling that I had that things didn't add up completely and if they don't add up completely there's probably a reason. Yeah.

[00:47:16] So I thought also that they could be working behind the scenes and I don't know what to what end. I think it's probably it could go either way. I mean as far as June goes how they're treating June they're not working together. Nick punched Lawrence in the face.

[00:47:34] Nick's questioning Lawrence. June is not a target. Well that not officially a target. They're totally at odds over. It was just something about that scene. They weren't putting on a show for anybody. They're having a private conversation. Right exactly. That's the point.

[00:47:51] They did it in this very public way to make sure that Mackenzie saw and everybody saw and why would Nick do that? Nick's a smart guy. He really is. I think you're eating too much into it. Probably. But I did think it could go either way.

[00:48:10] It seems like it's mostly pointing to Joseph being the villain next season. But I did think there was things that happened that just made no sense.

[00:48:21] If there was something beyond what was apparent there which is Nick found out that June was the target of a shooting potentially went to question Lawrence about it. Insisted that June should be kept safe. Lawrence is noncommittal.

[00:48:38] Then he finds out June was in a this truck ran into her goes back punches Lawrence in the face.

[00:48:45] Then he decides, okay, a Gilead can't help me there trying to kill June so I have to go partner up with Mark and agree to be a spy so that Mark will help protect June.

[00:48:56] If there was something else going on besides what I just said, I think it would be too obscure for the audience to be able to grasp onto. They would have to say remember all that stuff you thought you saw? Yeah. That wasn't what was really happening.

[00:49:11] Here's what got me is like, Nick's goal is to keep June safe, right? Yeah. But how did any of his actions do that? Now he's sitting in a jail cell. He's not helping Mark. He's not helping June.

[00:49:28] He made Mark promise, in fact you're actually alerting me to something that I didn't realize until this conversation. He made Mark promise to try to keep June safe and then Mark was right there telling June, you can't go to the airport. You need to get on this train.

[00:49:43] So he was doing what he told Nick he would do. So that's what Nick accomplished. He got June to go on this train to go to Hawaii. And what was Nick's end of the bargain? I think it was to spy, but it wasn't clear.

[00:50:00] But he's not going to spy because he's sitting in a jail cell because he punched out Lawrence. Well, is he in a jail cell? I didn't even know what that was. Oh, yeah. That's what that was. I didn't know what the hell that was. Okay.

[00:50:14] Well, he lost control of himself, you know. We've never seen Nick unravel like this before. He always has such control over everything. He's always through everything that June went through, especially when she wasn't Gilead and he was there. He has kept himself under control.

[00:50:33] This was like we watched him unravel during this episode. He really unraveled and braced everything because now even his wife is like. I don't want to be with you anymore. I definitely don't think that means, man, all you might have if I'm wrong about this,

[00:50:51] but I don't think that means that there's some other plan and he was just pretending to go unravel. I think it's because he sees that June could have been killed and he can't handle it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:02] I think maybe he realized in this episode that despite everything else that's going on in his life, she is everything to him and he didn't want to lose her. But if he can't have her, he at least wants to know that she's off living a life that's safe.

[00:51:23] Yeah. I feel like there's so much more that we have to talk about when we, because we haven't even, yeah. So that was my can of worms question. Jason, bring on your second point. Okay, let's move on to Lydia, Jeanine and Naomi. Oh, yes.

[00:51:43] So I think the whole storyline with these three is mostly about Lydia's journey of realizing that Gilead sucks. Ass. Absolutely. 100% agree. First off, the one moment of levity. I love so much with the handmade scrubbing the floor and ending up singing hard knock life. For Manny. For Manny.

[00:52:08] Yeah, it's hard. Oh my gosh. And Lydia hears them and grins and I think earlier in the series we'd be afraid she'd like chop off some body part or something. Yeah. But she's smiling and she hears Code Brown as she comes in which was really funny and

[00:52:25] she's like saying singing is fine but God would prefer him. I'm like, can't you just let them sing what they want? But at least it's progress that she's letting them have fun.

[00:52:33] But the point is I think that she loved hearing these girls have some joy in their life and it's showing that she loves them in her own warped way, you know. And then she finds out that Jeanine is not safe.

[00:52:47] The other ants like, I know you're showing favoritism towards Jeanine. She needs to find a posting or they'll find another use for her which usually means the colonies, right? That's what jumps into my mind or something else horrible. Carvister uterus. Yeah, right.

[00:53:01] And Lydia's like, okay, if I have to post her then I'm going to put her where she'll most want to be with her own daughter and maybe Lawrence won't do any ceremonies because he's been known not to do that before. Yeah.

[00:53:13] So asks Naomi to let Jeanine come back and she gets her by saying Lawrence wants to project an image that reflects Gilead's new values and having Jeanine back would help with that. I guess the new values are like forgiveness and mercy. That's what they keep talking about, right?

[00:53:28] Yeah. So I guess her Lawrence killed her husband now in the open. I guess Nick did that, but still. I like the scene with Naomi and her wedding dress just trying to, okay, it's my wedding, like putting that little flower on her head even though her husband was

[00:53:46] killed to get her into this play. You get the feeling that she's, it's interesting with her because she's very condescending with Jeanine but also as she says, oh, it's so good to see a familiar face because she's in this new environment and stuff.

[00:53:58] Anyway, Jeanine doesn't want to be posted with Lawrence, which is pretty strong because she could be near her daughter as far as she knows. No, I don't want to be posted. You said I wouldn't have to do that again and Lydia's like, you know, I never

[00:54:11] said such a thing, which was very sad. And I think I don't know whether Jeanine knows Lawrence has a history of not having sex with his handmaids. I'm guessing she doesn't, but I feel like it's not just that.

[00:54:24] She just doesn't want to have anything to do with being posted anywhere. It's all bad. Yeah. So then we go to Naomi's wedding day and all the Martha, so many Martha's there and Jeanine's being so polite in the face of Naomi's

[00:54:41] awfulness saying Angela went to grandma's for the summer dope and it's a test period and you know if you even say that she's not mine, your tongue could be cut out and she's like, yes, ma'am, I'm here to serve and everything.

[00:54:56] And that whole time I was thinking Jeanine's going to kill her. That's what I thought. I was thinking about what June told Serena about. I forget exactly what she said, but just bide your time and think about your revenge. Yeah. Every minute. Yeah.

[00:55:16] So then when Naomi was going to show Jeanine her room, I thought, oh, Naomi's going to die right now. That's what I really thought. But then she called her of Joseph. That was it. And Jeanine just says what is obvious, but you never say because

[00:55:34] you don't want to get killed. That's not my name. We're not friends. Why would you think? How could you not know that? I hate you. It's like, duh. Come on. The old Jeanine came out. I love that because it's like that's what you just want to say to

[00:55:50] people sometime like, where what the fuck is going on in your head? You idiot. You know, and she said it. This was two after the Martha told Jeanine about June's. Yeah. How did that play? Yeah. I didn't quite understand why that triggered her to do what she did.

[00:56:07] I think it brought her back to reality. Like she realized that June is out there. I think she's been living in this world. Yeah, she's been living in this world where she just doesn't have to be posted. She can hang out with the other handmaids and it's

[00:56:26] somewhat pleasant life. And now things are changing. And then she remembers everything that June has done and how much she has fought and she just couldn't take it anymore. I think I'm the conspiracy theorist of the group because I have another conspiracy theory about this. Let's hear it.

[00:56:49] So, Jeanine, this is my take. Jeanine purposefully riled up Naomi to get booted out of the house by the eyes. I think this was a plot quickly put together by the Martha's in Joseph's house. We know the Martha's that have been in Joseph's house

[00:57:08] have always had a level of freedom that other places haven't and it's always kind of been a conduit for May Day. It was before anyway. Right. I think they did that to get Jeanine out of the house to help June.

[00:57:24] The way she is taken out of the house reminds me so much of the way that June gets taken out of the Waterford's house in the book at the end of the book. So I think Jeanine has been taken by May Day. She's not really afraid.

[00:57:40] She doesn't really express fear or surprise and I think she's going to May Day. I could be wrong but that's what I took from that. That is great. It was so uncanny of the way it was done that it

[00:58:00] reminded me so much of that part of the book. I went back and read that part of the book. I think that's somewhat plausible. I could see that. It could happen. Yeah, because it seemed because you know at first I thought Naomi didn't have much of a reaction.

[00:58:18] So is she sort of like alright she has a point and just ignoring everything that Jeanine said but no. She sent her back to Lydia and Lydia's scared like you're going to be in trouble. You need to beg Lawrence and Naomi for forgiveness.

[00:58:32] No, I'm not going to do that. And then the eyes come and if you take that straightforwardly well somebody said Commander Lawrence gave that order and if you take that literally it's just Lawrence got mad that Jeanine dissed his wife and won't be a handmade

[00:58:49] so sending her to the colonies or wherever but it was also we don't know. We don't know what's going on and when she put her hands on the other handmade hands and they both had muzzles on that was a reflection of another scene we've have seen right.

[00:59:07] Didn't June do that in the back of a van at one point or something? That was Emily. Emily, okay. On her way to getting her clitoris removed. So they were evoking. Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

[00:59:19] And they took her lover out and killed her right in front of her. Yeah. Man. Yep. I think, yeah, I don't know. I hope you're right because. And that kind of fed into my Lawrence is in a villain theory as well because I think. I don't know.

[00:59:35] Every time you hate Lawrence, I like him and this week I hate him and you think he's great. It's funny. I just feel like yeah, I'm not going to say anymore because there's other points. The last thing I add about is I just think

[00:59:50] from Lydia's point of view the eyes are taking Jeanine somewhere not good. I mean, she's like, what are you doing? And they push her down and so hit her, I think. So from her point of view, I think it's just like more

[01:00:05] and more she's like, I can't keep my handmade safe here in Gilead. That's a problem. I think it is, I mean this, the one thing that Lydia had to do was to help her. I mean, she put so much effort into helping her or trying to save her.

[01:00:30] She became like a daughter to her. Yes. And for this to happen, I think that's it. I think she's, there's no going back because she and Lawrence had built up this give and take relationship where Lydia helped him with certain

[01:00:47] things and he kind of took those things and made things happen that ended up positively helping Lydia in some weird twisted world of Gilead. If Lawrence truly did this and that's what Lydia thinks, ugh. And this is going to impact Lydia next season because Yeah.

[01:01:10] Jeanine was just about the thing she cared about the most. Yeah. And I would imagine after everything that Lydia's been through, it's hard to find motivation to keep going and that was sort of her motivation and also her companionship and I had a note about Naomi Putnam

[01:01:33] as detestable as she is. I also felt like she was a woman who was not in control of her fate. You know, she's, it's basically marry this guy who had your husband killed or you know, we don't know what's going to happen to you and your daughter.

[01:01:53] You'll probably go to the colonies. Your daughter will be taken away from you and given to somebody else. So I did have empathy for her but I think it's like what you had said previously, Jason. It's when those people that are down and out

[01:02:07] get a little bit of power and what they do with it and so she was getting a little bit of power here because she was marrying this high level commander and you know, what she chose to do with it to Jeanine I think was an indication of her

[01:02:23] real self which is not great. Yeah. But you know what? Here's the thing. Naomi was really upset about this. Do you really think she went and told Lawrence what happened? I mean really think about it. I don't know that she did. Like this is tying into Wendy's theory.

[01:02:44] She probably said this person is rude or something. Yeah. I don't... Well she said I'm sending her out of here. Right. Lawrence is going to notice that. Yeah. But I just... Wendy you really have me questioning. I'm convincing you aren't I? You are.

[01:03:01] I'm hopeful because Jeanine has been... It wouldn't make sense for the story just to have Jeanine... She was already at the colonies right? Just go back to the colonies that wouldn't be interesting. Yeah. Was she at the colonies? She was at the colonies and she's back.

[01:03:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. They brought her and Emily and a bunch of them back. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have any desire at this point to re-watch anything. I will maybe once we get close to season six but I... Yeah. I think I will.

[01:03:36] I did re-watch Noah's birth episode in the... Because we're not seeing the final product and that was such a beautiful scene so I did go back and watch that one day. It was beautiful.

[01:03:49] I did notice too that the video from Hannah's school, they took the writing off the building. Yeah, I figured they would. Yeah. Okay. Wendy I believe it's your point that's next. So I think we've touched on most of my points but I'll expand on the final scenes.

[01:04:12] At this really... I was really emotional with the final scenes of Luke turning himself in and even on second watch as I was writing my notes I was crying and I'm not a crier but at

[01:04:27] the train station it's the complete reverse of when they first attempted to escape Gilead. This time it's June who gets away but Luke is captured. Luke sacrifices himself for June and his daughter and I mean I...

[01:04:40] You know, I believe he absolutely believes that Nicole is his daughter and loves her very much and I just couldn't help but think you know what a season it has been. We've watched Luke and June come so far together and they have overcome the

[01:04:58] impossible and come back together in the most incredible way. It's just been wonderful to watch. Luke is an amazing husband, father and man. I mean he's probably one of the more pure people that we've seen in this

[01:05:15] show and it was so emotional and heartbreaking to me when he gives himself up and we just don't know what his fate is going to be. And we don't know what season six is going to bring for Luke and June in

[01:05:32] their story but this felt very final to me and I hope I'm wrong. I welcome but it felt very final. If it was Walking Dead we would know it was final. Yes. This show surprises us sometimes so there's room for a little hope. Maybe. Yeah.

[01:05:49] I'm choosing to see it anyway. Yeah. And so it did feel very final. It felt like their arc was just kind of completed and was really emotional and sad and then I think we've talked about it already when we finally see

[01:06:12] it's Serena and I just thought it was really interesting that the episode ends with both Luke and Nick in a prison cell. And June and Serena on a train together with their babies heading to Hawaii.

[01:06:27] Of all the things I could have ever predicted this would not be it. Me either which is how this show keeps you think you have a clue and this show delivers things to you that you did not even expect.

[01:06:44] It's interesting too that Serena that June has Nicole which Serena once considered her child and would have done anything to get back but now she has her biological child so hopefully she'll keep her hands off. I loved it. I just loved this season finale.

[01:07:05] I felt like it took me for a wild ride and I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. I was mesmerized the whole time. It didn't go anywhere the way I thought it was going to go but I still absolutely loved it probably more so.

[01:07:18] And it ends with just the two of them looking at each other some more close close-ups of their faces and their wonderful saying so much with their faces June has that one little raised eyebrow. It's just magnificent. And then they cue Billy Eilish's song, Bury a Friend.

[01:07:37] And it was just perfection, horrifying, heartbreaking, tragic with just enough hope to get us to the next season I felt like. The music this season has a hole I think has been spot on.

[01:07:52] Not that it ever isn't because I feel like it always is but they really know how to tell the story. I've really been going down a Billy Eilish rabbit hole lately and so this was just like perfection. Yeah.

[01:08:08] I played a ton of Billy Eilish beat saber so that's how I got into Billy Eilish. It's kind of soothing to play first thing in the morning or when you're at work and you just need background music.

[01:08:23] All right, well does anyone have any other points or notes that you want to bring? I have another point. Jason. So why do I keep, I put Nick last and then I'm the one who does the Nick point every time. No one wants to talk about Nick.

[01:08:44] I have a couple other things on Nick. Yeah, why don't you start on Nick? Oh my. Then Jason will finish it off. So it's more of like my conspiracy theory. I'm sorry. We see the headquarters of Gilead and it seems like just a whole lot

[01:09:03] of men milling around in dark suits. And Lawrence and Nick seemed at odds with each other but again it just made me question it because they're in a public place. All the other commanders are around. And I just couldn't help but wonder and I actually thought this

[01:09:23] initially before anything serious had happened that it was a show for the others around them, you know, those two spend a lot of time talking in private and I just couldn't think why they wouldn't be talking in private about.

[01:09:37] I think it was because they wanted it to play up the whole thing about Lawrence being like, yep. Hey, what's up? I don't have time. Sorry. And he's like, no, no, no. They're separating the two of them. Yeah.

[01:09:51] And then the other question I had about Nick was he agrees to work with Mark finally and it seems like that was just out of desperation because he truly felt like June was her life was absolutely in danger and he needed to do something.

[01:10:06] But as he's leaving, he says that he doesn't he tells Mark he doesn't know how much his word is worth right now. And I thought that was a odd thing to say. Does he say that because he doesn't plan on upholding his

[01:10:22] deal with Mark or does he say that because he's betraying Lawrence and Gilead? I didn't catch that line. I could. Mark hands him a contract to sign and he doesn't even look at it. He just signs it. Signs it, yeah. Yeah. Wendy, I think it's the latter.

[01:10:40] I think even though he knows. Because he feels like a traitor. Because he feels like a traitor because he was he's been involved in Gilead from nearly the beginning again. I'd love to know what happened, what he was involved in

[01:10:55] even a minute of it just to really be able to form an opinion. He tells Mark he's nothing. Yeah. And it just, I don't know, something just didn't add up to me and I truly felt like him and Rose's relationship, I still don't know what that was.

[01:11:16] And she even says as she's leaving, she says we had a good thing that almost made it sound like it wasn't real. Like it was a marriage for convenience on both their ends. Yeah. I don't think that's right.

[01:11:31] I think they're kind of like Luke and June that he found some happiness with her to the point where he told June, I can't leave. I have my family here. And he tells Mark says why didn't you run away with June? She has people who care for her.

[01:11:49] She doesn't need me. I'm nothing. He just feels like she has a family. I have a family. So they're similar. They love each other but they have, they love other people too. And this whole season I've got the sense that Nick, well, that Rose cared about Nick anyway.

[01:12:07] And Rose says you'll never let go of her will you. And he says I tried, I really tried but I can't. So to me that means that he wanted to be with Rose and he just, his emotions are stronger for June.

[01:12:25] I also felt like this felt like a romance novel. And he should have just said look I still care about her. I love you but I care about her. I don't want her to be hurt. But then Rose said I don't want to be with you anymore.

[01:12:38] We had a good thing and you had to go and ruin it. And I'm like well that's too bad. You're in Gilead. You can't get a divorce, right? Well her father is a big high up commander. So they'll probably work something out that involves his death. It's dying.

[01:12:52] Oh. Yeah. I thought at one point during her conversation with him after she had gotten up and gone to leave, he said we can't leave now. Or we can't leave. Yeah you can't. I think he said you can't leave right? He said you can't leave.

[01:13:10] Okay because I could, which is an odd thing to say too. Yeah. Well I thought that meant you can't get a divorce in Gilead but I don't know it was kind of bad. You could be widowed though.

[01:13:23] If Rose is that kind of person, I mean she did seem like she was saying it's over but. Oh yeah. She seemed like she was done. But she knew this going in because earlier in the season. But we don't know what she knew. That's the thing.

[01:13:40] I feel like I was waiting. Just the fact that she had a girlfriend made me think I've just had the feeling that Nick tells her a lot. Yeah. I think so too. And so I mean she even asks him about June, about his meeting with June. Right. Earlier.

[01:14:00] So she, I mean she was aware. Right. So I don't know. I'd like to know what this arrangement is that they had because we had a good thing. Yeah. Doesn't seem like a way to refer to a marriage. Exactly. That's exactly how I felt.

[01:14:19] That was a weird way to say it. I mean is that one, is Naomi going to say that to Lawrence? Oh well we had a good thing. I think it's, I don't know, I've heard that in movies before we had a good thing but now it's over.

[01:14:34] That makes sense to me. And they have a baby. I mean she's pregnant. Right. Yeah. So they, and Nick didn't want to leave her and you know it just seems like she's a wife who is sick of her husband basically cheating on her.

[01:14:53] We had a good thing but now it's over. Yeah, it was just something that just didn't add up to me like he can't help June from prison cell. All he had to do was kind of play along for a bit. His actions against Lawrence didn't help him.

[01:15:11] Didn't help her. Didn't help Rose and his unborn child. Didn't help June or Nicole. But TV shows and movies are full of people hitting people and it doesn't help them. What did Daryl do? He punched Negan in the face and then Negan killed Glenn. He had a fever.

[01:15:28] He wasn't thinking straight. Happens all the time. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be, I mean, I kind of hope you are right at this point that I can talk. No, it just, it was like, and maybe if we knew more about Nick

[01:15:44] it would make more sense to us. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I felt like he's been a mystery for so long that this was even more like perplexing to me. To me it feels like things are much clearer with Nick and Lawrence now

[01:15:58] that Nick and Lawrence were trying to reform Gilead to some degree anyway but there's a rift between them finally here which makes it more interesting to me. It's very Gileady. I guess, you know, looking through my Nick notes we did pretty much talk about everything with Nick.

[01:16:17] The only new information at least new to me maybe you guys knew this and I forgot is Nick said most of the drivers work for the eyes. I didn't know that. I feel like that was said way long ago.

[01:16:31] I think it's in the book too so I assumed it. I did just think of something and I think it could be that Wendy's got me thinking about conspiracy series now so my mind will just go a million miles an hour on that.

[01:16:49] What if Nick punching Lawrence was a way to make Nick look like he wasn't working with Lawrence so that he could body up to another commander instead? I know, he's in prison so... True. It certainly doesn't advance his position. No, but say someone like Mackenzie saw this happen.

[01:17:13] Yeah and sees they're in road. And sees, yeah, and then comes and says hey... I think we could spin it a lot of different ways. We could. Just see how Lawrence reacted to that. He's like what the fuck man? And then he goes cake.

[01:17:32] Nick and Lawrence have been playing it like this this entire time. They have been so careful not to have reactions to anything that would give it's like they're playing poker. And they... Yeah but no one ever ram their truck into the woman that... True, yeah.

[01:17:48] That one of them loves possibly at the direction of the other one. Mother of a child. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah not good. Not good at all. Does anyone have any other notes? I have a couple notes. I know I talked about World War II

[01:18:08] but the episode made me think about scenes out of Nazi Germany. The scene at the train station reminded me so much of footage I've seen from the Warsaw ghetto where every Jewish person in Warsaw, Poland was forced to leave their home with only what they could carry

[01:18:25] and move to a walled off ghetto where they lived sometimes multiple families to each room and I know they were going to Hawaii it's a little different but just the scenes of them being kind of corraled down the escalator and through the hallways really reminded me of that.

[01:18:42] And maybe this is just something because I haven't rewatched in a long time but I didn't realize that Luke and June had different last names. I think I always assumed Luke's last name was Osborne but Luke's last name is Bankhold, right? Bankhold? Bankhold. Bankhold.

[01:19:02] I think it may be because June had a feminist mother and she did that. June might have done that because she wanted to or because she was trying to appease her mom. Yeah. No, not today. My wife kept her name. Yeah, I think it's more common. Mm-hmm.

[01:19:23] I thought that was interesting because I think I always, I think I even in maybe last episode or the one before that Luke Osborne, that's not true. And that's it for me. That's our show. Thanks for listening everyone. Thanks everybody.

[01:19:58] It's been a great, another great season podcasting on the show. It's one of our most popular shows on podcastica gets more downloads than any other show except for our flagship show, The Walking Dead cast. That's so awesome. I love that.

[01:20:16] I think this show is honestly the show I enjoy doing the most. Like, yeah, I think just the three of us mesh so well and the content is so amazingly well done. It's always, it's never a labor to do it.

[01:20:33] And the feedback, I mean just how it really hits on some serious things with people like how they're raising their children or you know abuse and all of that. And it's just so thoughtful and heartfelt and authentic. And it's an honor actually to get that from you.

[01:20:50] It is. That is I take it so seriously when I'm prepping for this show just wanting to catch every little thing, but also knowing that the two of you are doing the same thing. So I know we're going to bring it all to the table or as

[01:21:06] much as we can to the table. Yeah. And it just, it really makes it fun. I love. I'm going to miss podcasting with you guys every week, but I know that we have yellow jackets. Yeah. It's coming in the spring.

[01:21:20] That's something I don't know if everyone hearing us is aware of. We've maybe said it a couple times, but the three of us also podcast on another show, Yellow Jackets from Showtime. We highly recommend you check it out. It's dark, but it's a dark,

[01:21:35] it's I think it's more of a black comedy. It's not like heavy like Handmaid's Tale so much. It's a mystery to feel it's really cool. It's Melanie Linsky, Juliette Lewis and who's misty? Christina Ricci. Christina Ricci. They're so good.

[01:21:54] And the three of us and another host Penny are on there and sometimes we bring in guests. So if you want to hear more from us and you want a new show to check out, highly recommend checking that out. And it's at podcast to go.com.

[01:22:05] If you want to find the podcast. We also did a cool thing with that podcast where we podcasted on all of the episodes, but then we went back and went through and talked about it. How, how we would have thought differently knowing

[01:22:21] everything that we knew that we learned throughout the whole season. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the rewatch. A show like that because you're looking for hints about what's going on and stuff. So many little picture by the end things. And it's, it's very much like this show in some ways

[01:22:37] and that every little detail means something. There's no accidents. Right? Yeah. This covering shows like this affects how I watch other TV shows and I have to like check myself and say, No, you're not podcasting about this. And not focus in.

[01:22:56] I get so much more out of a show when I podcast. I mean, yeah, it makes me realize half the time. I don't even know what the hell is going on. I'm not paying as close of attention. Yeah. So I need to listen to a podcast.

[01:23:08] There's a few of these episodes this season that I kind of felt mixed about on first watch, but on second watch, like it gets me. Right. Like it adds to it. For sure. The conversation to you, I think. Yeah.

[01:23:24] Because you miss something and then it all clicks in your head when you talk about it with other people who are doing the same thing. So next time on the podcast, we'll respond to your feedback about the finale, the season, whatever else you want to

[01:23:39] write in or call in about. So if you want to write in or leave us a voice message, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And if you enjoyed our podcast this season, we would really appreciate it if you'd leave us a rating

[01:23:55] or review wherever you get your podcasts. There's a link in the show notes and thank you guys so much. All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening. It's a hard knock life for us.