25: "Train", "Exile", & "Devotion" (S6E1-3)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Hmm. Please help me. How could you be so fucking blind sometimes? She isn't blind. She should be. Stop it. We can cut out her tongue. Great idea. Let's see it, Mrs. Waterford. Enough. They took her finger, alright? She spoke out, and they took her finger. She has paid. She has paid.

[00:00:30] How can you defend her? She threw people off fucking rooftops. Gender traitors? How do you pay for that? Before Iliad, America was full of horrors. Serena, shut up. Women were getting raped and killed every day, and nobody cared, and that was your country. What the fuck is wrong with you? You were unfit. I am not responsible for your tragedies. Your children were not taken from you. They weren't stolen. They were saved. Serena, shut. She's a rape man!

[00:00:55] God hated America because America turned their back on God, and God took your country away. God bless America, Serena! Because we were born in hell! Everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And this is The Handmaid's Tale podcast.

[00:01:22] This week, we're covering The Handmaid's Tale season six, episodes one, two, and three, which are called Train, Exile, and Devotion. They don't like long episode names. No, they tend to do that. I've looked at- No man's land. I've seen the titles for some of the other episodes that are coming up, and they're very short. Yeah. There's not a lot to give away.

[00:01:51] So, yeah, I think it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds. Here's a big spoiler. I think the final episode is called The Handmaid's Tale. Oh my goodness. I can't imagine. Wow. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about how we're approaching the show, which Wendy and I talked about a little bit last time when we did our catch-up episode.

[00:02:19] But I figure there's probably a bunch of people who didn't listen to that, and they're just jumping back on right now. So, we just wanted to mention that clearly things have changed since we last podcasted, and so we decided our approach will change a little bit too. And we want to be upfront about it so that you can know what you're getting yourself into right now. If you listen to the episode we did last fall, you know where we stand politically.

[00:02:48] It's the one that's called Let's Not Have Our World Turn Into The Handmaid's Tale or something like that. I forgot the exact title. But in the current environment and with this show being what it is, we decided we're going to be, we're going to feel free to be open about our thoughts about how things are going in the United States and in the world. That doesn't mean that we're just going to be talking about that.

[00:03:14] I think the main body of the podcast will mostly just be our usual breakdown of the episode. In this case, it'll be three episodes because they dropped them all at once. Mm-hmm. So we might pepper in some thoughts about how things are similar or different at what's happening in the real world, stuff like that. But then one big change is in, in, I think every episode we'll do a segment at the end where we talk about at least one issue where things are comparable to the world of The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:03:42] And we'll have some resources of things that you can do if you're feeling like you want to make a difference or fight back. Um, as always, we, we always love to hear from you guys. So we'll put up a post from each episode in our podcast, Facebook group, or you can send, you can write or send voice messages to talk at podcast.com. Um, and, um, and last, I just wanted to say, we're recording this on, on Saturday, April 5th.

[00:04:11] This is a day when thousands of protesters, protesters gathered in cities across America and around the world to protest the Trump administration's actions on government downsizing the economy, human rights, and a ton of other issues. And I don't know if I can speak for you too, but I just want to express how grateful I am that people are standing up for our democracy and our rights in the face of everything that's happening. Yeah.

[00:04:40] I feel the same way. It was very inspiring to see everybody gathering and, um, we, we have to fight. Absolutely. More of this. We do. We definitely do. It's been, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. And it's been hard, honestly, to find words to describe, like, the way I feel sometimes.

[00:05:06] And in seeing all the photos from the protests today, it made me feel, I guess, not so alone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that's something that maybe a lot of us feel right now. I don't think I'm the only one. And so it was really, um, impactful to see all of that happening.

[00:05:31] And that's one reason why we do want to speak up because we're like, what can we do? Right. What can we do to help? And, and one thing we can do is maybe to help some of you guys as corny as it sounds feel like you're not so alone either. Yeah. Yeah. It does help. It definitely helps to not feel like you're by yourself. Right. Yeah.

[00:05:55] Yeah. Well, with that said, let's move into our overall thoughts on this episode. Jason, why don't you start? I thought it was strangely good to be back in this world. You wouldn't think you'd want to go back in there. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:15] Especially because it is different. June's more in a position of agency, you know, and, and even like Serena and Lydia are kind of disillusioned. And we'll talk about that. It's not black and white, but it's just not the constant being punched in the face. Like the first few seasons were, I don't think I'd want to go back into the show if it was like that.

[00:06:40] And I'm sure we're going to get some of that, but just the way it is now, people are trying to fight back and, and it feels good. And we don't see a lot of overt old school Gilead fucked up villainy yet. And, and I'm sure we will. It'll be great. But anyway, I enjoyed these three episodes is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. What about you, Wendy?

[00:07:01] I thought the first episode was just phenomenal. I wouldn't think that we could build that crazy intensity, scary on the train right away, you know, 30 minutes into the new season, but they really did it. And the ending, I feel like it was really like the high that we needed to launch this season off of. So I was just really loving, loving it.

[00:07:28] And the next two episodes did not disappoint as well. I really loved them all. They're sticking to their beautiful cinematography, which I always appreciate and really so character driven. Absolutely. The color I think is so vibrant in some scenes that you almost get sucked like completely in so well.

[00:07:57] And I think the ending of episode one was the hopeful thing that at least that's what I took from it was this hope that we haven't seen a ton of on this show. We really haven't. And we're not getting punched in the face quite like we were in the first few episodes of season one, season two, like the first few seasons.

[00:08:26] I didn't rewatch season five. I went and watched one of those videos that recaps what happened in season five, because I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could go back to Gilead or Canada at that point. So I did that instead. And coming into this, I wasn't quite sure what to expect and how it was going to feel because things are different.

[00:08:52] But I really also enjoyed the first few episodes and I felt like the vibe is just a little bit different, but I think it's representative of the change that we've seen on this show throughout all of the previous five seasons as things have continued to change and evolve through the character's eyes.

[00:09:20] Saying everything, you know, the look of it is still beautiful. I fully agree. And they do great things with lighting, but I got to admit when they got to the water park, I'm like, oh, that's kind of ugly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's all on purpose. That's no man's land. Usually they find ways of making places that are dingy and, you know, deserted, still look cinematic.

[00:09:48] Well, I think back about the, the scenes with June and Janine when they were, I can't remember exactly where they were, but they were like, Chicago. Yeah. In the battle lands. And that, it reminds me of that. Yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds you of what's been abandoned really in the country that it's not that a different power to just that a different power to go over.

[00:10:17] We're looking at just pockets of people living in different places, but a lot of things have just been discarded or abandoned. And they're really remnants of a former life and a former world. And you think about the water park being a place that brought families joy and a way to, you know, come together.

[00:10:41] And then to see it in such disrepair and destruction. I mean, really it's, it's falling apart. And that just shows you, I think too, that society fell apart. Like things are just not what they were at one time. And so sometimes I think there are things in this show that are very much like metaphors to what we're watching. Yeah. They represent more.

[00:11:12] Yeah. Than just what we're seeing. What's been lost. Yeah. Because Gilead, if you think about it, you know, the clean water, clean air, that those are two very, you know, important things in life. Um, but also a lot gets lost when you go so far to one extreme.

[00:11:34] And I think, you know, the water park represents a lot more than just something that's falling apart physically. Okay. So let's jump into our points. We'll just keep the same order going. Jason, what would you like to talk about first? Okay.

[00:11:58] So we're going to, I guess we're going to kind of go through one episode at a time, but feel free to reference things from the other two, right? Yes. If you want to. So if you've, if you've only watched one episode, you might want to watch the other two before you listen to the rest of this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So this is one of mine that's kind of long due. So you guys feel free to jump in anytime, but just, this is a lot about June, June and Serena's relationship and the dynamics between them, of course.

[00:12:27] And, um, a lot of the show is really, when you think about it, back to the beginning, but, uh, it's been so fun and interesting to watch how they've evolved over the years. And here Serena wants to be allied with June and she's resisting, but she feels protective of at least Serena's baby. Um, but I, I think there is this trauma bond between the two of them.

[00:12:55] And there's a part of June that feels protective of Serena too. Right. She's saying it's about the baby and that probably makes it easier for her to step in and protect Serena. But. Right. I think it's not as far as she feels like for Luke or Maura, but it's there. Yeah. There's something that they share that no one else on the train has. And a lot of it's horrible, but it's like I said, it's a trauma bond.

[00:13:22] She's rightly very extremely resentful of Serena and recognizes even, I think that Serena deserves consequences for her actions. Uh, but she doesn't want her to be killed and, and they both have babies with them. So I think that both helps, helps them both feel sympathetic towards each other. Um, it's been so long since we watched this show. I had to remind myself who are these babies? And I'm like, okay, uh, one is Nick and June's baby, Nicole, and one is Serena and Fred's, which is Noah. Yeah.

[00:13:53] And so to see Serena trying to show care and, and kind of ingratiate herself with June. Oh, your arm is broken. It must be quite painful. How did you break it? And I love how June answered that car accident. Well, a car ran over me in front of my house. Pardon? When? Oh, yesterday. I'm sorry. A car ran over you yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday morning. It was a truck, not a car. Always look both ways. I just thought that was funny.

[00:14:18] I love the contrast between, uh, people who are in this Gilead vibe and speak, and then somebody on June's side will come in much more natural and, and Eddie, or I don't know, just like cussing and stuff and the way those two worlds kind of clash. Um, but anyway. I think Gilead speak is just so like. Formal. Formal and like rigid. And then. Yeah.

[00:14:47] It's so different. Yeah. Serena was especially Gileady. Yes. Yes. She was. And that's the thing. Well, yeah. So I'm not even going to talk about, uh, how other people perceived her. Cause I, I just want to talk about the, the vibe between the two of them and then leave that part for another point. Um, but yeah, she was, she even just saying praise be like, she was like, don't say that in here. Read the room.

[00:15:16] Like she doesn't know where he is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People hate you. So anyway, so it seems like at this point, Serena has put Gilead behind her. She says tomorrow we can start to forget. And she's really trying to ally herself as, Oh, we're the same June. Gilead hates us both. And, um, June's like, we're not the same. So then June takes a snap and she wakes up and Serena has taken Nicole a little ways down the train and, and June freaks out and thinking she lost her. And I don't blame her.

[00:15:45] She's lost Hannah and Serena mocks June for thinking she would steal her daughter. You think I'm going to steal your daughter while you're sleeping? Like some kind of Disney villain. And I'm like, yeah, that's like way out of the realm of possibility of what could happen since you forced June to sleep with Nick. So they'd have a baby for you to steal from them. Since you let June escape to Canada with this very baby, by the way, that's right here. And then change your mind and stage a whole PR campaign to get her back.

[00:16:12] And, um, if, if Serena hadn't gotten pregnant with Fred's baby, she might still be trying to get. That's right. You know? Yeah. So don't mock her for that. Yeah. Yeah. She's just so unrealistic. Yeah. Yeah. I liked how she said the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And then June followed it right up with on a case by case basis. And this isn't the case. Yeah. This is, that was so June.

[00:16:42] One thing I liked is, um, June needed help and she was hurting from her wounds, maybe sick, really struggling. And then I love how Serena would like try to help her along and she'd be like, don't touch me. Get your hands off. And Serena just kept being steadfastly there for her. Like, I, I'm going to help you. She goes to get a doctor.

[00:17:06] And, um, you know, as, as much as I definitely think that Serena has done a bunch of terrible things that she deserves to face some consequences for, I still recognize that she can be good at times. And this was one of them. I admire her for that, to just, even in the face of someone just showing you utter contempt that you're like, no, no, no, you need my help and I'm going to help you. And then eventually June accepted.

[00:17:31] And so, I mean, I, I don't know if I would accept if I was June, but maybe just given the situation, I might trust her just enough to get by and not a, not a sliver more, you know? Well, I think Serena though, she definitely deserves consequences has already been put in the place of a better understanding of what was expected of June as a handmaid and what it was like to be, to have every aspect of your life controlled.

[00:18:01] And wheelers. Yeah. Yeah. So I think Serena has had to go through some things that have, you know, definitely shown her how difficult things could be. But again, I totally get where June is coming from. You know, she, she doesn't want anything to do with her and Serena keeps trying, but June

[00:18:26] is, you know, June is incredibly smart and she's been through a lot with this and she's been through a lot with Serena. You know, she delivered Noah and I just, I don't, I think June's in a really tough place because she doesn't want her help, but they're thrust into this situation.

[00:18:52] I was thinking maybe June could have asked one of the other women on the train for help, but that wouldn't have been as interesting as what we saw. Exactly. I mean, in, in later episodes, she even kind of resists help from her mom, who's a doctor. So I think it's June, you know, she's like, no, I can do it myself. You know, like I don't need anybody. She doesn't want to need it. But especially not Serena. Right. Yeah.

[00:19:18] And I, I did think Serena acted genuinely caring and apologetic, but she seems to only do that when it's really actually beneficial to herself. Yeah. So it may be true feelings that she's having, but I think it's also like part of her, not all of her, but part of her understands the predicament that she's in.

[00:19:44] Like she's a refugee and she's a refugee where she can't even travel under her own name. Right. So she's in an especially precarious position. And I think that's why in many ways she's trying to make nice with June. But I think, I mean, she's so complicated and these three episodes have a lot to do with questioning. Okay. What, what does she regret? What is she trying to do now?

[00:20:14] Where is her head at? And we'll talk about that more as we get into later episodes, but just for now, I do feel sincere, caring, maybe even independently of needing help. Like, I don't think she's just like, I better help her cause I need her. I think she might actually have some sincere caring there, but she also had that when she told or let June go escape to Canada with Nicole. Right. And then she went back on it.

[00:20:43] So she's like, you can't ever trust that she's going to stay the way she is. Right. Yeah. Because she is always looking out for number one, which is herself. But now she also has the baby. So she has had to broaden that scope a bit. She has to think beyond herself. She has to, but she does get herself into trouble because there's that part of

[00:21:11] of Serena that is so just self-righteous about her own actions and her involvement with the creation of Gilead that she can't stop herself. Yeah. I mean, I think she, we are going to get into this more, but maybe just broadly, she does have regrets about Gilead. Right. Right.

[00:21:39] But then we see her with her father, the flashback in the next episode, or maybe the third one where she's like, oh, we're going to change the world. It's going to be a garden of Eden. It's big, big dreams. And she's going to be the prime mover. And then, and, and then we know she has regrets about how that went. Maybe we don't know specifically, but I think a lot of it has to do with how little power women ended up having in Gilead. So she doesn't want to do that part again.

[00:22:03] But then she's like at this dinner calling, she's like, you know, I'm like Moses and Elijah and, you know, just comparing yourself to these prophets. And she's going to go again and change the world. Just like very similar to how she did it before. And okay, maybe she has some better ideas now about like women can have more power, but at the same time, she's on this train saying, yeah, there were a bunch of whores and you guys, God hated you.

[00:22:31] And so she's still like full of herself. And no matter how magnanimous she thinks her new ideals are because of her regret about how wet before she still has this one way that she thinks it needs to go. And if you don't subscribe to that, then you're immoral or something, you know, that's how I feel about her after watching these three episodes that, okay, I do admire that you want, you regret what happened before you you're sorry.

[00:22:59] And you want it to be better for women in Gilead, but you still are just an idiot. Her whole being is still very much tied to God or a higher power, like what her beliefs. And that's why she kind of gets derailed in some of what she's talking about is because

[00:23:26] one woman on the train said, God is just an excuse for men to use two things, cocks and guns. And Serena, that's not how she believes. And that isn't true, but it's true in Gilead. It is. It doesn't have to be true, but so often it is true. It is. The thing about religion, and I always try to be careful about this because I don't want

[00:23:53] to say, I think religion is bad because I don't. And I think religion teaches caring and prompts people to do good things and help. But I think where it can go wrong is you think you have the truth and then, and you think no matter how much you want to avoid it, if you've got the truth, then it's kind of like nobody else has the truth. There's certain sects that really try to be more inclusive, but a lot of times it's

[00:24:23] like that. And so there's a, there's a certain amount of limitedness in that thinking. Only we have the truth and righteousness too. And that's where it can be really dangerous. You feel it's an emotional thing. You feel so righteous. And that's how Serena felt about herself. That kind of rooted self-righteousness can really drive you to do things in the name of your faith that for people who don't believe that it can be super harmful to them. It can. And now she's changed.

[00:24:52] Okay, no, I don't think that anymore. I think this, but I'm going to be equally righteous about it. And if you don't subscribe to what I'm saying, then you're a sinner and you can go to hell as she screamed on the train to these women. Right. She can't stop herself. Like she just, she's holding a newborn in a dangerous situation and she can't stop herself. No, she can't because that piece of her, it's who she is. It's her personality. It's how she is. Her worldview is the only one.

[00:25:22] Yes. That's the problem. You know, like you were saying, Jason, it's, it's about having a belief system or a religion and thinking you're the only one that has an it's the only one that exists and there's nothing else that's different. And if it does exist, it's not right. Cause it's not the right one. And that's kind of how she's being is that my beliefs are the only beliefs.

[00:25:48] And whereas religion can also be a, like be a community. Cause I've seen that in my personal life where family members have been part of a church that has been a support system and community. And it's appeared to be incredibly healthy. I've also seen the other side of it where it's been really just almost destructive to people. And it's a line.

[00:26:18] It's, it's a, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Wendy, you are up. I'm just going to continue. Cause this was, this was a lot of mine too. So it opens up with June holding Noah and she has this almost dreamlike look on her face. It's just her beautiful sunlight.

[00:26:43] And so she has Noah and she's really enjoying holding a newborn baby who doesn't love holding a newborn baby. They're adorable and wonderful. And then she also has Nicole, her baby. But what she's thinking about is Hannah. When Hannah was born, um, the missing baby in her life. And I, I just can't imagine how that feels. Like I'm sure that paints every experience that she has, especially with Nicole, because

[00:27:12] you can't help think about that missing baby that you have. So I, and I thought that takes us right where, right back, right, right center focused on everything that this story is about. So I really liked that. Um, and, and then Serena, I agree with everything you said, Jason. Um, as ever, Serena just can't resist being in charge, changing things around.

[00:27:39] She like boots all the men out of their part of the train car and moves all the women and children. And, and she does it in this caring way. So I could see how she comes off as caring and confident and wanting to, you know, make things better. But she just can't stop being the Gileadian that we know she is. It's really interesting how, when the women on the train who hate her fucking guts, if they knew who she was, but they don't know who she is.

[00:28:09] And she's just a natural leader. And that's part of why she had the life that she had, right? Because she naturally can get, she's so confident in what she thinks her way is or what the way she thinks things should be. And she's beautiful and people just want to follow her. And she's like, yeah, we should care for the women and children. Why don't the doctor, why don't you treat her next? And the woman's like, oh, thank you. And then she sets this thing apart, like you said. And I think that is all great.

[00:28:36] Like there's a lot of good in what she does, but it's not worth it. Yeah. Not at all. But that part's good. I think, you know, like putting, setting aside a part of the train for the women to be taken care of who are pregnant or whatever. Yeah. And she doesn't have any problem telling people what to do. Like she just excels at that.

[00:29:03] And so Serena is trying so hard to pit her and June together as comrades in arms. But it's so obvious that she doesn't get it. She's trying, but it's just not happening. The other women have been trapped into sexual slavery for over a year. That was the one woman that was talking about her experience. Another hasn't seen her baby in years. Another spent time in the colonies. What happened to Serena?

[00:29:31] She was scared and she was slapped. She spent a few weeks in a decent detention center in Canada. She isn't letting what they're saying and their experiences sink in. She has had a tiny, tiny spoonful of what these women have had over years time. And she talks about being, she talks to June about being terrified all the time.

[00:29:58] And I can only imagine what June thinks about that because that was a few weeks time. And June had that for years. Didn't know if she was going to die. Didn't know if her husband had died. Didn't know what was happening to her daughter. Didn't know what happened to her mother, to Mara, to all the people that she loved and cared about. And I just can't imagine. If that were me, I think I'd end everything. I would have no reason to go on.

[00:30:23] And she just can't empathize correctly. There's something wrong there. She gets a little teeny schmids, but then she wants to utilize that to better her own situation as always. Like you said, she's suffered a small sliver compared to June. And she's like, we're the same. Right. Definitely not. Fuck you. The scale does not equate at all.

[00:30:53] But then, okay, when all the women are telling their stories and June starts telling, oh, yeah, when I was smuggling my daughter across and then the guardians were chasing us and they ripped her out of my hands. And you can see Serena's like, oh, wow, like it's just dawning on her. Oh, you went through some stuff. Then what if June had said, yeah, then I was stuck with Serena fucking joy. And she like threw me onto the ground and started talking about her, you know, just as dramatic.

[00:31:22] Facilitated rape, basically. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah. And she's really was an architect behind at least some of the ideas for Gilead. Even if they went to an extreme level, she sold people on the idea. Yeah. She did. Yeah. She's like an influencer. She's a social media marketer. Like, yes, that's who she is.

[00:31:51] And I think we see that even going throughout the episodes two and three that. A little bit of power for her goes a long way, but I think she's also being very careful. Um, but we'll talk about that. Yeah. When we, when we get to it. We can talk about the end of Serena on the train in a different point. Well, you knew what?

[00:32:20] Why don't we talk about it now? Because I think that we're transitioning to that. And so that's one of my points. So we might as well like lay it out. Yeah. I think for the first time on this train ride, Serena actually got to understand what it was like to be scared. Because she was in a situation where she could have died. Basically. I thought she was, I thought she might.

[00:32:49] I did too. I did too. Yeah. Her and her baby. And she was horrifying. Really disturbing. Yeah. That nobody was like, can we get the baby and just put them over in the corner or something? No, they were going to beat her up with her baby. And June tried to get Noah. And what bugged me is Serena did not try to give Noah to June. She just still kept holding on to Noah.

[00:33:16] And I wondered if that was because she thought it might keep them from beating the crap out of her. But it wasn't. My guess is she's like, the way things should be is that you should all appreciate what I did to help you and let me and my baby go. And so to like, or something along those lines. And so to like give June the baby is sort of admitting, oh no, that's not what's going to happen here. Yeah. She was still barking orders.

[00:33:46] Do not call the police. Like, how do you think that's going to work? Justifying why, you know, we saved you. We saved your babies. We didn't steal them. Yeah. No, she's still at a time she should not be saying the things she's saying. She amplifies it and keeps going despite June trying to help her and stop her. And say, shut up, Serena.

[00:34:13] It's like, you got to save her from herself. Yeah. Because it's just who she is. And she's incredibly lucky that June even did anything to help her at all. Yeah. And I think part of it had to do with Noah. Because again, June and Serena. June delivered Noah. Like, there's that. You know, connection.

[00:34:43] And Serena tried to give Noah to June. I don't know. Oh, yeah. You know. Yeah. Back in the barn. And again, I don't know if that was some twisted way of trying to make up for something. Or if she was, I don't know. I think she recognizes that June is a good person at heart. And strong and will protect. And yeah. Well, she tried. And I think she'd have definitely regretted that if June had said yes.

[00:35:14] Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, she did that with Nicole and twisted it around. So, yeah, again, she may have turned it into something else. The wheelers certainly would have turned it into something else. If I were Serena, I'd be more worried about the wheelers than being worried about the police. Like, you know one leads to the other. But still.

[00:35:47] I appreciated, honestly, that June pushed her off the train. Because it looked like Serena was not going to jump herself. Yeah. That was crazy. Crazy. So good, though. She had to do it. Yeah. Because, again, they were going to kill Serena. Yep. Or push her out of the train when it was going faster. Yeah. You know, the faster and faster it was going, it was going to cause more harm.

[00:36:15] I have to say, though, that when they were breaking the glass, they kept showing the glass breaking. All I could think of was Train to Busan. Yeah. Which has nothing to do with this. Yeah. It's great. It reminds me of that, like of that movie. And glass breaking. And the chase through several cars was so good, so intense. Yeah. It was so dark. I couldn't really tell what was going on for some of it.

[00:36:45] Yeah. I think that might have been screener quality. Again, it's still very Train to Busan. Yeah. You know, light and dark and all of that. I was worried that they might retaliate against June for doing that. But we really don't see anything. So the next thing we. Why'd you do that? But yeah, they didn't. Well, I think that's kind of why she was sitting there.

[00:37:12] They probably recognize that, you know, trauma bonding is a thing. And like, she's protecting her mistress, which is fucked up. But they probably understand that a little bit because they've been in those circumstances. Yeah. And they know she's the victim. She was a handmaid. Yeah. And I'm sure that to them, it's absolutely insane that June would be protecting her.

[00:37:41] Like they probably can't even fathom. Why she would ever protect the person that. Was her mistress. Mm hmm. But again, I still think, you know, I had something to do with it. And I don't know that June would have. Done things the same way. Had no one not been. In the picture. Yeah. I think she would have had mixed feelings, but I agree.

[00:38:10] I don't know if she put herself in the line like that for it. Yeah. I don't. But I just loved when the doctor pulled her aside. Uh, do you, do you, how long have you known that person? She may not be who you think she is. And it's like, Oh crap. And then that she's a war criminal traveling under false papers and an officer is on the way to arrest her. And I'm thinking, yeah, June's just trying to get rid of her this whole time.

[00:38:39] But now she has to decide if she wants to help her, you know? And, um, they, June says, can you promise they'll keep her baby safe? And the doctor wouldn't say anything. And I think that's a little bit silly. I think of course he's going to promise, but it's for drama, you know, especially with the worldwide shortage of babies. He'd be like, yeah, he's going to go to a good home.

[00:38:59] Um, then the, then when the doctor comes up to Serena and starts kind of spitting Gilead phrases at her, you know, Oh, he seems like a healthy young boy. Praise be for that. Right. And, uh, then he totally outs her, you know, he says Gilead, he was in a, he was in fertility sciences in Gilead and remembers her. He, well, he says he's a really beautiful boy, Mrs. Waterford, Serena joy. And you hear no fucking way from one of the other women.

[00:39:29] And, uh, then, and I'm like, why would he out her if this officer is coming? I think it was great drama, but the only reason I could think of it is if he was just like, all right, well, I called an officer, but if these women get to her first, that's fine too. Yeah. That's what I thought it was. I also thought he was really creepy.

[00:39:51] That doctor, like he's holding her baby and touching her baby while he's like questioning her in this really threatening way. And it was really creepy. I didn't like that at all. And I, I do think he outed her publicly on purpose. Like he didn't have to do that. He could have taken her aside. He could have just waited till the police came, but he did that on purpose.

[00:40:16] I wondered at first if he was a plant for Gilead, like if he was actually still working with Gilead and had infiltrated into Canada to try to bring people back to Gilead because of the way that he was acting, the way he was talking. I found him incredibly creepy. Mm-hmm. Incredibly creepy.

[00:40:40] And then the officer that came after, and even though he knew who she was, would not say. No, he wanted Serena. He wanted them to do what they were going to do. Yeah. He's like telling that, oh yeah, my wife was in the colonies and my son would have been 11. So you presume his son either died or was taken from him. Right. Yeah. And then he's like, but you look nothing like Serena joy.

[00:41:10] When he, when he first said, oh yeah, your papers, they look fine. And I'm like, oh, what? She's going to get away with it again. Come on. But then, yeah, it slowly dawns on you. He's doing that on purpose because he wants her to suffer an even worse fate. And June understands that too. And she's like, you're trying to tell Serena, you're going to be better off if you get arrested. And Serena's like, no, then I'll go back to the wheelers. And June's like, you're about to be ripped apart. Right.

[00:41:37] But then it turned out that that was, she was better off. Only because they made it to the door of the train. If they had enough. Yeah. I mean, she's better off, right? She would have been back at the wheelers probably. Or been in jail and the baby would have been to the wheelers. It's just by chance because God's watching over Serena all the time. But again, how long would she really have been at the wheelers?

[00:42:05] Or no, she would have been to jail and the baby would have been at the wheelers. Right. But how long would she really have been there? I mean, not long after that, the plan, I think episode two or part of episode one, was to get her back because she's the social media influencer of the year. Right. Yeah, I guess you're right. The ambassador. Either way. But maybe there's a chance she would have had a hard time getting her baby away from Mrs. Wheeler.

[00:42:32] I do feel like this episode was an education for Serena in the harm that has been done. Oh, wait, wait. I'm sorry. She would have been in Canadian jail. Yeah. Gilead. Yeah. But that doesn't matter. No. No. No guarantee they could have gotten her out of there to go be the spokesperson for New Bethlehem. Lawrence would have gotten her out. He would have.

[00:43:01] I mean, come on. He's Lawrence. He can do almost anything. Like, really. He's a hero without a cape as far as Gilead and all of the craziness. Yes. Um. I think, though, as we say in this episode or this Serena's experiences on the train were

[00:43:23] really also an opportunity for her to hear and see, like, from people who were in front of her telling her about families being completely ripped apart. Whether or not she took that in and understood it, I think at least she could see consequences or understanding that them attacking her were consequences for what she was.

[00:43:53] She did to these families. Maybe she was just triggered, but she says women were getting raped and killed every day. Nobody cared. And that was your country. You were unfit. I'm not responsible for your tragedies. Your children were not taken from you. They weren't stolen. They were saved. God hated America because America turned their back on God. And God took your own country away. God bless America. Burn in hell. That doesn't sound like someone. No. I don't think she came to.

[00:44:21] I'm not saying that she internalized it. I think that it was an attempt to educate her. And I mean, she wants to do things right and do things better. That's true. I do have to wonder though. I have to wonder if going forward as we go through the rest of this season, which there are seven episodes left since they dropped the first three for us.

[00:44:49] If Serena and June will cross paths again. And if. Oh, yes. You know, they absolutely are. And if. And if. An opportunity comes for Serena to. Save June, if she would follow through with it, because I don't know that she will, but we'll see. I mean, she would. Unless it was really detrimental to herself. I think she would.

[00:45:19] If it wouldn't cost her much. I think she would. I think she recognizes enough in June that June has saved her. June has saved her baby. Yeah. They share a lot. I think she would. But I guess we're going to find out. Yep. I think so. Yeah.

[00:45:38] The only other point on this that I had was, you know, those women, as scary as an intense of a scene as it was, and I did not want to watch Serena and Noah being torn apart. They just want to do to her what June did to Fred. Yes. Absolutely. That was like parallel.

[00:46:04] If you look at what they did to Fred, the beating, the kicking, all of that is a mob of women doing that. And the energy. Right. And this, it's very similar. Which, by the way, Gilead taught them to do that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean. And once you've done it, I'm sure, like, you know, it's like anything else. Once you've done it, the taboo is gone.

[00:46:31] You might still know it's a wrong thing to do, but you're going to lean that way much more easily than the second time you do it. That is making me think way too much about another podcast we're on together. And things that have gone on through on that show. Yeah. So, definitely. Yeah. It's a Great British Bake Off, right? They just keep. Yes. Yeah, sure. It's gotten cutthroat this year.

[00:47:01] Yeah. Yeah. So, we're back around to Jason. Cool. I only have small points, but I have one. It's Nick and Commander Warden. Is that his name? Warden? I think it's Gabriel Warden, right? Warden. He's a new guy. Joshua Charles gets to join the Handmaid's Tale universe. I always liked him. He was. I liked him in Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead. Absolutely. Christina Applegate.

[00:47:31] Who did he play in that? The hot dog guy. Her boyfriend. Yeah. Hot dog guy. Okay. Oh, my gosh. We've all gotten old. That's great. Yeah. He is great. And there was a movie called Threesome with Lara Flynn Boyle and Steve Baldwin that I liked. Cute movie. Yeah. And he was also on The Good Wife, I think, for a few seasons. And Sports Night was his big show. That was an Aaron Sorkin show before West Wing, but I never watched that. Anyway.

[00:47:59] So Nixon handcuffs because he had just assaulted Lawrence in the season finale last season because he thought Lawrence must have known about the assassination attempt on June, the truck running over her. But now he's free. And I think the implication is that this guy, Warden, got him loose, right? Yeah. Because he's a high commander. Yeah. And that's Rose's father, his wife's father.

[00:48:29] So it's his father-in-law. Yes. And Nick refers to him as a high commander. So he's a super powerful guy. And I think I've got some things to say about him later, but for now, he's kind of coaching Nick to prioritize his family, which makes sense given that this Nick's married to his daughter.

[00:48:45] And, um, he, it seems to me that he senses that Nick is, uh, his loyalties are divided or if not that extreme, just that he's not focused enough on what a good Gilead man and husband and father should be in commander. And so he's just trying to gently nudge him in the right direction. You have a bright future. It's yours if you take it.

[00:49:12] So that's pretty much it for him on this episode. I would say. It's just interesting to me that Rose really was done with Nick in the last episode, but she doesn't get to make that choice. That's not hers to make. And you don't really even get a sense of where her head is at in this one either. She's just kind of there. No, no. And we don't really see her and Nick interact. I don't think in any of these episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all this.

[00:49:43] I see. I feel like when there's scenes of Nick and June all smoldering with each other and being dramatic. I hate those scenes almost more than anything else in the show. And that is saying a lot, given what we see in the show. I don't feel that badly. No. But it's challenging.

[00:50:04] And I can't help but wonder, like, we know Rose knows some of what Nick's done that would not be copacetic. But we don't know how much. And, like, I guess she doesn't share that with her father or maybe she does. It's all just we don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But she's savvy enough. And I can't remember the details of what she knows.

[00:50:30] But she seems to know that Nick's in love with someone else. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they had a platonic sort of arrangement. Like, we both have to get married. So let's marry each other because we're kind of on the same page and we don't. We actually like each other. Yeah. Yeah. But that has to feel pretty shitty for Rose. Yeah.

[00:51:00] Yeah, definitely. Just like it did for Sydney Sweeney. I believe she got her start on this show. She really did. Yes. And she's done so much since. It's been pretty amazing to watch what she did in that very brief role that she had on the show. And then she's been on Euphoria. She's been in a bunch of movies. She's just blowing up now. Yeah. White Lotus.

[00:51:32] Okay. Wendy, what's next? I'm going to talk about Holly. Yes. So huge fan of the novel. June talks about her mom quite a bit in the novel. I never thought this was a possibility to have Holly on the show. So I'm super excited about this. So a bunch of my points in all three episodes are about Holly.

[00:52:02] So June and Nicole arrive in Alaska. I thought it was really interesting. The new American flag that is flying. It has all of the stars on it. But almost all of them are like faded and muted. And only two of them are like bright stars for Alaska and Hawaii. I thought it was only two stars. But I like. Yeah. That's what I saw. Yeah. Yeah. Because the fact that they're faded means that's. Yeah. On second watch, I realized.

[00:52:31] I mean, unless they just used a real flag and CGI did badly. But I don't think. No, no. I think you're right. I think they were all faded. You could barely see the other stars on them. So I thought that was really cool. Yeah. And so we see a doctor. We don't know if she's a doctor. She has a stethoscope walking out. And she reviews a clipboard that has the names of the new refugee arrivals on them. And she obviously sees June's name on there and starts calling out for her.

[00:52:59] And it was just so satisfying. Like, what a high. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And we see her or we see a character walking around like you get to see. And I was thinking, oh, I didn't even dare to hope. Right. That it was her mother. It didn't even occur to me. And yeah. That reunion. Oh, my gosh. No, that was when we set our hopes for this season. I think that was one of mine that June would see her mother again.

[00:53:27] I wouldn't have even thought it was. I'm so unhopeful. Me too. And I actually had to go back through and find. It was it was season two, episode three, where June is thinking about when she's at the Red Center. Like the the. The there. It's like a film strip. They're just going through different slides, basically. And there's a picture of her mom carrying a bag.

[00:53:55] And so she knows her mom was sent to the colonies. Mm hmm. And that's all. That's all she know. And so for this to happen. Yeah. I mean, I do. Yeah. I have to wonder, too. One of the things that stood out to me or that I've been thinking about after these three episodes is how much June might be the daughter that her mom always wanted her to be like this activist fighter. Yeah. Because that seems to be what she wanted. And she knew, though.

[00:54:25] She knew June well. And I mean, this is in the next episode, but it was interesting to me that her mom stayed at this waypoint rather than going further into Alaska or going off to Hawaii because she just kept holding out hope that June was going to make it there. And that's because she's like, I know how I raised you. I know who you are. So it was a little more than hope. I would say it was just kind of knowing her daughter. And she was absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. Because June didn't follow the path that her mother wanted.

[00:54:53] But through this experience in Gilead, she's become that person. Right. And so all that June has been through, I'm sure. She imagined what had been happening to her mom. I think they had said previously that they had, you know, she just disappeared. Like somebody came and grabbed her out of her apartment and nobody knew who it was.

[00:55:23] And so she just disappeared for them. So they didn't know if she was dead or alive. And then June found out she was in the colonies. But, you know, she didn't know. And so I just can't imagine the pain, you know, like when somebody's child goes missing, you don't know what's happened to them. Are they suffering? Did they die? You just don't know. So I and June had that for multiple people for a long time.

[00:55:46] She didn't know what had happened to Luke or Hannah or Mara or all the people that she loved in her previous life. So she had to face that all the time, that grief that you don't even know what you're grieving, but you have to grieve. And that's why one reason why the show feels so much better now, because she knows where most of those people. Yes. You know, and she still has many of the important people. Yeah. Alive.

[00:56:16] Yeah. So far. So many people weren't so lucky as we learned with the people on the train and hearing those stories, you realize that it's such a big scope, the pain that's been caused. Yeah. And I'm just going to say it like that's what's happening now. People, even legal citizens of the United States currently are being abducted off the street.

[00:56:46] And generally, the only reason why we know what's happened to them is because of social media or independent news reporters. The current administration has, you know, they are not telling us what's happening to those citizens. Here in Maryland, we had a gentleman who was here legally. And in 2019, a judge had given him a special dispensation so that he would not be deported

[00:57:15] back to El Salvador because because he fled El Salvador because it was dangerous for him to be there. So he was a political refugee and they abducted him. In front of his child. In front of his child and shipped him back to an El Salvador prison, even though he's never been committed. He's never been convicted of a crime.

[00:57:41] And he was here legally and he's married to a U.S. citizen. It has a child. Not only that, but they said that was a mistake, an administrative mistake. But they're not making any effort to save him. And I can't. He won't even try. Right. So imagine how his wife and child feels. He did everything right. He was here illegally. He went to court when he was accused of things.

[00:58:10] And, you know, so what are we what are we telling the world that it's it's not safe to be here if you are not a U.S. citizen? And it's questionable even if you are. I was just arguing with someone about this on Facebook and they were like, well, he was accused of being a gang member and it's more important for me to have my family be safe. And I I was like, we have due process in this country so that you can find out if someone

[00:58:40] is actually guilty of anything. And if you throw that away, then the government can make up any reason to tell us, OK, you're now an enemy of this country. I don't care if you're a legal citizen. We have evidence. Well, is that going to go to court? No, there's no due process. We're going to ship you to a prison in another country. That is like one half step away from what already is happening in our country right now. I mean, I might argue that we're there.

[00:59:06] Like, also, if you don't want somebody who's not a citizen of your country in your country, then make them leave. But we put them in the most one of the most dangerous prisons in the world for what? What crime did he commit to now be in a prison? None. That's where we are.

[00:59:30] Yeah, that's why we're changing how we do the podcast, because it's becoming like The Handmaid's Tale in our country. I want to say about June's mom, Holly, a couple of things. We got a close up on her face, kind of like how they always do with Elizabeth Moss. I just thought that was, I think they did that on purpose because it's mother and daughter, you know? Yeah. And I think that actress is really good. Very good.

[00:59:59] But nobody does it like Elizabeth Moss. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're both fair. Yeah. No, they're great. They're both great. No, I mean, they're both- They look like they could be mother and daughter, but I'm just saying the way that she does her facial expressions, I haven't ever seen anybody as good as her. That's my opinion. Oh, yeah. But also, they said there would be some feel-good moments this season. I feel like the end of this episode was definitely one of them. It felt so good to see. It gave me hope, and I needed that, I think, coming into this.

[01:00:29] Yeah, I'm sure. Because I couldn't have imagined a higher point to end on. Yeah. I also loved it the next episode when she's yelling at June saying, you fucked a Nazi. Yes. Oh, man. But a couple things- But again, like mother and like daughter. Exactly. Because June says stuff like, I mean, she's very direct. Yes. Like, okay, yes. Now we're getting to see a little bit. I've never said that to my children. I'm just saying. Well, they haven't done it yet, hopefully. Yeah.

[01:00:59] But a couple things about her, I just refreshed myself. So before Gilead, she was a women's rights activist, and she was a supporter of rape victims. She was a medical professional who performed birth control procedures like vasectomies or abortions, even after those procedures were made illegal. She didn't like Luke. She didn't want June to marry him, I think, because Luke had cheated on his wife with June, maybe. And she was a feminist, you know.

[01:01:28] It's kind of like not liking Nick, because he's a Nazi. That's what she thinks. Right. That he can't be trusted. She wants to be able to trust. But then when they end up on the phone, she's very friendly with Luke. So I think she recognized that Luke is much better. And then, yeah, I guess the only other thing was that we already talked about how they thought she was in the colonies. And she's a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She's a doctor. And she came to love Luke. Oh, she's a doctor.

[01:01:56] She didn't like him initially, but she came to love him. I forgot about that. Yeah. And the only other thing I wanted to say is, like, I'm a, you know, middle-aged woman. And I can't imagine that anything feels better than, you know, finally being able to hug your mother. You know, the person that kissed your childhood boo-boos and took care of you and brushed your hair.

[01:02:24] And I think that's a level of comfort that you just can't get anywhere else. Yeah. I think. Someone to make you pancakes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, June must have been thinking, is this a dream? Am I in a dream right now? My mother is actually alive. Yeah. This, I mean, after everything she's been through. Something good happened. What the hell?

[01:02:54] And hearing, too, her mom talking about the hope, what kept her going so that she could have the reunion with her daughter was the fact that she thought her daughter was out there. And as long as she didn't hear, otherwise she was going to continue to think that. And she just kept fighting for that, for her daughter. For that opportunity to be reunited.

[01:03:25] Yep. So I think the only thing we really haven't covered about episode one is a little bit of Wendy's favorite character. My man. Mark, who, you know, it's not a good time to be an American in Canada, according to Mark Toello. No. Yeah.

[01:03:45] Moira has footage from the cameras that can exonerate Luke in showing that he was defending his wife after she had been, you know, attacked. And so she's trying to help get Luke out. And Mark is just having to be very honest with her about the situation in Canada.

[01:04:06] They're going to close things down and they're going to de-recognize the U.S. so that they can normalize their relations with Gilead, which is another reason why Lawrence would have gotten Serena out of there. Somehow things have flipped around. Yeah. And, you know, it's getting to be pro-Gilead. They want to end the war, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I want to make peace, normalize relations.

[01:04:36] And just it reminds me a little bit of the U.S. starting to normalize relations with Russia after it invaded Ukraine. It's like, no. Yeah. But yeah, everything's falling apart for Mark. And I through these three episodes, because he's sort of like our military is depleted. Now we have to rely on Mayday, who he wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of before. And that's just basically regular people. But he's doing it still. And you can tell it's just because he feels so strongly about all of this.

[01:05:05] But he feels a little bit more like, instead of some official, a real relatable person. I mean, he always had his moments, but even more now. He just seems like one of the characters versus some agent or something. Yeah. He was really front and center of these three episodes. And I loved that. And he's the face of the United States of America. Yeah. He really is. Yeah.

[01:05:31] And he's doing what needs to be done, even though he's talking about them closing everything down. Still fighting. His thought is, Mayday's fighting back. We don't have many friends left. You find your allies where you can. Yeah. Which I think also goes back to Serena and June on the train and having to be allies for that brief time.

[01:05:58] But Moira, she wants to join in and fight back. And she basically, you know, shares with him. She was at Jezebel's and she escaped by killing a commander. And I think that's when he starts to really take her seriously. Like, yeah. Okay. He's impressed. Yeah. She approves. Whoa. That's something. Yeah. Yeah. So he was impressed by that. And I agree with you, Wendy.

[01:06:26] I think I'm worried about his survival. Yeah. This season. I'm worried about all of their survival. I'm worried about Holly, too. Yeah. Because I feel like that's the pain they're going to give us. Yeah. We're getting, you know, these good moments. But then also, I feel like it might be the calm before the storm hits. I know. We can't forget what kind of show this is. Exactly. Exactly. You can't.

[01:06:55] Don't let your guard down. It's going to punch you when it can. Yep. But I was really impressed with his character during these episodes because I felt like he, again, has moved away from being a representative and is more of a, okay, we can't do things the way that we've been doing them. We have to pivot.

[01:07:18] And even though I don't acknowledge Mayday prior to now, I'm acknowledging them now and they're an ally and we're working with them. So. Yep. And that, that gets us through episode one. And I can't close out episode one without saying, did you notice who the director was? Was it Elizabeth Mose? It was Elizabeth Mose. Oh, wow. Cool.

[01:07:48] The only other note I have for episode one is that we see a brief, very brief vision of Hannah in a beautiful sunlit field. And it looked like a different actress, but I wasn't sure. But it was very brief, but it looked like she looked much older to me. But again, it has also been two and a half years. Well, hopefully we'll find out. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Also, it was written by Bruce Miller, correct? Yes. Yeah.

[01:08:17] Good job, Bruce. Yay! We loved it. Yay. We have some news about Bruce Miller and some other things that we'll talk about when we get to the new segment. So let's move on to episode two, Exile, also directed by Elizabeth Mose. Jason, what would you like to talk about first? I want to talk about the uniqueness that is Joseph Lawrence.

[01:08:48] He's such a great character. I like Nick shows up at his place. I think it's the first time they've seen each other since Nick clocked him. And I love that he doesn't usually say the Gilead speak, except sometimes he's being sarcastic. He'll say it other times just as a formality. But a lot of times he'll just speak like a normal person. So Naomi says, blessed day, Commander, to Nick.

[01:09:17] And then Lawrence goes, hey, champ. Which I think also was like, you clocked me one last time we saw each other, champ. You're the champ. And then he goes, look, I had nothing to do with what happened to June. I'm very familiar with the feeling of wanting to run her over with a truck. But this time it was not me. I have missed Bradley Whitford's portrayal of this character over the last couple of years. Yeah. He's so great in this.

[01:09:46] And it's so fun to watch him. Um, I think it's so interesting how he comes off as potentially an atheist or at least not very devout. Um, when they sit down to dinner at this, uh, uh, community, religious community, and the leader, Abigail says, Mr. Lawrence, would you like to say grace? And he goes, I'm more of a pray in silence type.

[01:10:12] It's very personal to me, which sounds like something that someone would say if they've never said grace in their life, you know? Um, then Naomi stumbles through it. I don't understand why Naomi couldn't say grace. Do you guys? Because women. She's no Serena Grace. Yeah. Serena Joy. She's no Serena Joy. I mean, men are the patriarch. They're the ones that say grace, not the women. At least that's my take on that.

[01:10:42] Yeah, that could be. I mean, Naomi. Because she's pious, right? Naomi, isn't she? Yeah. I think so. She's not pious enough to call Janine a little bitch. That's true. Well, yeah, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. That's right. There can be a lot of hypocrisy. Yeah. But I think, I mean, another take that I thought maybe is the, in the theocracy, a lot of people pretend to be religious just to get along. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:11:10] But still, they, you'd think they'd have to go through the motions a lot. And I would think that even women in Gilead would know how to say grace. You would think so. Well, Naomi fumbled and bumbled along. With these two episodes. Yes. She was kind of funny, too. Yes, it was. That's all. That's all. Okay. Wendy. I'm going to talk about Holly more. Okay. June and Holly. All right. And this is long, so feel free to jump in.

[01:11:39] And when June was young, she loved her mother, but she thought she was too extreme. She, June grew up in the relatively safe years. And so she took all of that for granted, much like I feel like I did as well. I feel like I grew up in the 80s and the 90s and 70s. Yeah. And I feel like I took a lot of things for granted. You know, I took Roe v. Wade for granted.

[01:12:08] And so I feel like she looked upon her mother as like, there's no need for all this. You know, it's not that bad, which it might not have been for a while. But when Gilead took over, she realized her mother was right. And she writes about that in the novel. Um, June wakes up to Holly singing and reading to Nicole. And it's just adorable. And it had to remind June of when she was little and small.

[01:12:36] They have a lot of catching up to do. They tell each other their stories. Holly was dragged out of her home, tried by men in masks, taken to the colonies, and became the doctor for the aunts and the guardians. They kept her prisoner. They killed her friends. They kept her alive because as a doctor, she was useful to them. Until finally, the army liberated her colony six months prior to when she's in Alaska.

[01:13:03] And since she got out, she's been trying to get information on June, like you said, Jason. So they catch up. June tells her about Nick and about needing to go and get Maura and Luke out. And Holly really doesn't want June to go. I would have clung to my child's feet to stop her from going because she finally got her back after, what, eight years? However many years it's been. And she doesn't want her to go. Completely reasonable.

[01:13:33] But also... Like she says, she's like, this is what you taught me, Mom. And she's like, well, I was wrong. That's right. Like, I mean, she's been cowed a bit. You know, she's scared of losing what little bit she has left. She's still proud of her, though. And June is a fighter. Like, she... I'm really surprised her mom... I mean, they didn't bring it up about the air flight that came out that rescued all of the kids. Right. She didn't even mention that.

[01:14:03] But she goes, you're not a spy or a soldier. And she's like, oh, you don't really know what I've been doing. And... That's right. She's been doing a lot. And she's alarmed when she finds out about Nick. She's taking care of commanders medically. So she's been intimate with that. She knows what they are. She knows what the eyes are. She doesn't trust any of that. And she doesn't want to see any of that.

[01:14:29] I love when she said, I know my daughter fucked a Nazi and is running across the country to see him again. They fight. That's the quote. Yeah. I love it. And you know, there's some truth in that. I mean, Nick seems... He's being a double agent. But it seems like everything he's doing is out of care for June and Nicole. Not because he's an idealist that doesn't think Gilead is right. Maybe there is some thought there. But he's always been kind of pragmatic.

[01:14:58] He joined the sons of Jacob in the first place because he needed money for his family. And they said he could have a job, not because he was pious or anything. And now, you know, Holly's questioning whether June can trust him or saying, you know, you can't trust him. Well, we all know June can trust Nick because Nick will do anything for June. But still, like, he is complicit in everything that Gilead's doing. And he's had the opportunity to get out and hasn't taken it. Exactly.

[01:15:24] And you do have to wonder how many people like Nick exist in the Gilead world. Right. I wouldn't be surprised if it was most of them or half of them or something, you know? Yeah. Opportunity. That's a big deal. Or fear, too. Yeah. Yeah. So they both say pretty hurtful things to each other. But then they come back together and Holly begs June to let her keep Nicole while she's gone.

[01:15:48] And June agrees and tells Holly that she secretly named Nicole Holly after her mother. Like, Nicole was Serena's name. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I forgot that she was named after her mother. I forgot about it, too. I did. And I like how June was like, that's her real name. Yeah. And so I just wanted to read these notes that I found on the Handmaid's Tale Wiki about Holly.

[01:16:17] Um, Bruce Miller, creator and showrunner of the television series, stated in 2019 that Holly's character could appear in a future season and that he hopes to give all the characters in the series a proper conclusion to their storyline. As a matter of fact, while development for season four was underway, the writers considered a scenario in which Holly was pushed to her death during June's capture and interrogation, which would have served as June's breaking point.

[01:16:44] However, the scenario itself was written with Beth and Sienna, two of Commander Lawrence's former Martha's, being executed and the use of Hannah as collateral. Miller also hopes to dedicate an entire flashback episode to Holly that would showcase her capture and or attempt to flee a forming Gilead. And has hinted that a potential episode would tie directly into the first three episodes of the series season of season one.

[01:17:14] These plans would fall in line with the brief mention in the novel in which Offred states that all the doctors began to junk their records when Gilead took over. I love that. I would love a Holly centric episode. I kind of don't think we're going to get it because of like how much of the story she told, you know, but whatever happens, I I'm really excited to have this character. So woven in love it.

[01:17:44] Yeah. The hope to me, she's the hope right now is having her back. I liked the scene where she tells June she would remove her ear tag and June said, no, I can't not until all the handmaids are free. And my first thought after that was she's become the daughter that her mother. Yeah. Raised her to be. And Holly doesn't argue with her about that. She accepts it. Yeah.

[01:18:13] June's an activist. I mean, she is. She's an activist. Oh yeah. She's a, she's a rebel. She is. I liked when she talked about this, they took her to court, but it was a kangaroo court and they were wearing masks. And she said, I couldn't even see their faces. Pussies. Yes. I know. There's still some fight in her. Yeah. Yeah. And you still get to see where June gets it. Yes.

[01:18:42] Like she gets it from her mother. Yeah. And they picked the best actors. I can't imagine anybody else. I love her. You know, she was in signs, which was really great. Yep. But I think I love her most in the ocean series where she plays Matt Damon's mother. She's hilarious. And that. She was in transparent as this sort of professor that everyone looked up to almost like a guru. And what else?

[01:19:11] She was in an episode of poker face. I think she was also in succession, right? Yes. I believe so. Yeah. She's great. She's great. It doesn't matter what she's in. I feel like she's just. She always gives it like above and beyond. She's also in an episode of Black Mirror. She was in 24. She played the president in, I think, one season of 24.

[01:19:39] So, yeah, she always does a great job. Cherry Jones is awesome. Yep. So. Okay. Um, I want to bring up Luke because in this episode, we really get to see. We get to see him, at least what I took from it.

[01:20:03] He's very traumatized by the experience of being locked up, not being able to leave immediately to go to Alaska because he has to wait for the hearing. And I feel like we're getting to see a different, a different Luke than what we've seen in other seasons. I think he may have a better understanding of his, his wife now with given what he's gone through and had to deal with.

[01:20:34] He, to me, seems like he has zero fucks left. Like he wants to be with his wife, but they're not gonna, you know, he can't go and do it. So instead he's gonna join Mayday with Moira and go raise hell.

[01:20:54] Um, he seemed very upset that, um, he couldn't go and then finds out that Mayday, that Mark's working with Mayday and they're going after the commanders who shot down the planes. And he seems very into that. So he wants to help and do whatever he can.

[01:21:18] Um, I thought it was really heartwarming to get to see the reactions from Luke and Moira when they learned that Holly's alive. Um, and they, it was a nice call. They're all joyous. Cause I was thinking like, is it a little bit of a stretch to think they couldn't just call each other?

[01:21:43] But I guess because this camp that June's in is in Alaska, which is the former United States that maybe all the cell lines got disrupted or something like that. So they only have public phones and they can only use it once a week for five minutes. I thought that was a little bit like, oh, they're really going to stop June from talking to Luke because she can't use the phone. But so then I was glad when they actually did. Okay. They do have a call at least. Right. Even though it's a short one. Yeah.

[01:22:13] I did wonder though, there was an expression on Luke's face when they're saying, I love you. And he knows he's going off to do these things with Mayday. If he's thinking maybe he's saying it for the last time and that he might not make it out or what? It just seemed like a little, um. He didn't tell her about it. Yeah. He didn't tell her. Didn't want her to worry. No. Which is dumb. It is. And she's like, I miss you. I love you. But I'm super hot for Nick though.

[01:22:43] Oh, did I say that out loud? Sorry. No. I feel like, and I'm going to say this now, I feel like she told Nick where she stands in episode three. Like, I don't think there's a June and Nick. I didn't think she told him that at all. She said, call me anytime. Basically. And she said, see you later. Not goodbye. He did.

[01:23:09] But I think she told him that she was choosing that as far as what I saw, I think she's choosing Luke. I really do. I think he told her like, you're the only one that I would give up, take this risk for meaning not even his own wife, you know? And, but she, he said, I'm here to save your husband because you chose him.

[01:23:37] And then he, she's like, well, he waited for me. Um, but I, I had you and I loved you. And Nick's all loved like past tense. And then she's like, and then he's like, uh, then, um, she, she's said, I'm here. I'm here now. So it felt like, I always just feel like she's in love with two men. She is. That's what I think. Yeah. But I think she's trying to stand by her husband. I do.

[01:24:06] I think she's trying, but she's a little ambivalent. Who are we kidding? Like there's doing this dramatic by goodbye. And you know, we always do this. Who are we kidding? You know, let's just say, see you later. That's like leaving the door open for more meetings. That's how I took it. But I also think she has to do that because she's going to need him again. Or Mark's going to need him and she's going to have to be called in and have him save the day.

[01:24:31] I do wonder how the hell he's going to explain his disappearance to Lawrence who covered for him because this was a very big day in new Bethlehem that Nick's off on a joy ride. Yeah. At a water park. Yeah. Risking everything for June. He's risking a lot. He does risk a lot all the time. And he's, he's kind of pissed.

[01:24:57] He's like, you chose this other guy and here I am risking everything for you again. Yeah. So I don't know. Do you, do you think that she's making him think there's a possibility for more just because she's using him? I don't know that she's out and out using him, but I, I think she knows being with Luke is where she should be. Should be.

[01:25:26] Whether or not it's, I mean, her heart and head are maybe at war with each other. And that does happen sometimes. Do you think Nick would leave Gilead if June asked him to be with her permanently? Yes. I don't know that he would because he has a baby on the way. If I had to bet, I would bet. Yes. He would abandon his baby. I don't know that he would.

[01:25:55] I don't know. Maybe we'll find out. Maybe we won't. I'm not sure. This brings me back around, Jason. You're next. Let's keep talking about Nick a little bit. Nick torn between loyalties. Please. So Mark meets with Nick to get some Intel. And he just seems to care. Like I said before, mostly about whether June and Nicole are okay.

[01:26:20] Um, Mark says he wants to schedule Gilead patrols in no man's land. And Nick says, what's made it got plans and they don't have stand a chance. Guardians will shoot them on the spot. How many bodies are going to let them throw in the fire? When is enough enough? And Mark said, when there's no one left to fight, I love that line. Yeah. And, and you, you know, I started to get the impression that, uh, you know, are they trying

[01:26:47] to say that Mark is putting good people in danger needlessly, but I don't think that's what they're saying with this. I think everyone knows what the danger is and they're all on board with it, you know? So it's all, it's their choice and it's the only thing they have left to do. And they have to utilize what they have. I mean, they don't have the resources they had before.

[01:27:12] And it's not like they're going around saying, you have to fight, you have to fight, you have to fight. These are people who are choosing to fight because they believe in something. They believe in it. And, and it sounds like Nick here is he's trying to talk him out of it, right? Like you should give up. Basically he's saying, you're putting people in danger. They're going to die. You should give up. And then when a commander warden is talking to Nick later about his family and how he'll

[01:27:42] be a father soon, and he needs to set the standard for his son and set a good example for him. Like I was saying before, I think he senses that Nick's loyalties aren't purely with his family and his country. And as Nick's father-in-law, he wants to encourage him to change that and be devoted to his daughter and his, and their country and everything. And I think if it wasn't for June, it might be pretty easy for Nick to, to do that.

[01:28:09] Uh, but June's there, so he doesn't do it. Well, and it seems like he's trying not to, he burns Mark's SIM card, right? Yeah. He, he isn't going out and initiating contact. She's contacting him. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. He's trying. And that's what his story is about. It's about these forces pulling him in different directions.

[01:28:36] And just when he's really trying to be like, okay, I'm done with all that. But then he gets this German consulate coming in and saying, June's waiting for you at Marl Marker 17 or whatever. And that is not, that is not what they were expecting. Okay. Right. That, oh, and the face was just great. And each situation kind of keeps increasing the stakes for him. Like he blows off the new Bethlehem thing, which he, he shouldn't, he, it's dangerous for him.

[01:29:05] He, you know, we, I mean, we can get into it with the next episode, but. Yeah. That's all I had to say about him. All right. Wendy. All right. I'll talk about Serena. Serena just happens to stumble upon a church community. God's watching over her. That's right. Only for women and children, which she is a woman and has a child.

[01:29:34] I give her a little bit of credit that she doesn't say she's a refugee. Like when the woman asks her if she's a refugee, she, she tells the truth that she's not. And Abigail is the person who's welcoming her, who seems like really nice person immediately recognizes her, but welcomes her anyway. And she says, what shall we call you? Which is. Asked in just the way that show. So she presumes Serena.

[01:30:03] Joy may want to go incognito. Right. She doesn't ask what her name is. Yeah. Yeah. And later on in the episode, we see Abigail prod her a bit about taking some personal accountability. And she seems to do it for a second. Um, and we see back to back scenes beautifully shot in the outdoors with sunlight streaming

[01:30:27] over both scenes, June with Nicole and Serena with Noah, two women with their children. Um, and we see Serena visiting her dad who I don't think we've heard anything about her parents until now. Right. I don't know. Not really. I don't think so. So it seems like he has Parkinson's, right? So it seems like he has Parkinson's. I would agree with that.

[01:30:53] And also he's a, some kind of minister or preacher or something. So we can see how Serena kind of got set down this path that she's been on. He, he was a minister. He, she told him about her plans and he agreed with all of that and seemed to be supportive of her and said, yeah, I'm seeing the same things from my pulpit. And all surrounding him is his beautiful garden with all his flowers that you can see him

[01:31:21] meticulously caring for, um, really incredibly beautiful. Um, and Serena's just getting started. You know, she said, um, she's on a book tour from her book that she wrote and she said, it's really small, but she's obviously getting pockets of support that's encouraging her. But it all seems very small at that point. And then when she comes back and we have the second scene with her dad, you can see she's dressed up more.

[01:31:50] She's more Serena-fied and she's talking about these big plans that are going to happen. And, you know, it seems like she absolutely truly believes that a, she's doing the right thing and B, it's all going to work out great. And it's going to be a garden of Eden set on earth, which are things that I'm guessing. Probably those are things that she heard from her dad. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:32:16] It seemed like it, but in the background of that shot, we see his home, which was beautiful is now completely kind of overrun and decrepit. All of his beautiful garden has been hacked out, you know, and he doesn't have much to say probably because of his medical, his advancing medical condition.

[01:32:36] But I'm just thinking, like, instead of being with her elderly father that obviously needs her at that point, she's off changing the country for the better. Instead of looking right in her backyard at something that needed changing and something that she could have tangibly helped with. But she's not. And she's just leaving there. And, I mean, I guess we don't know what happened to her dad, but, you know.

[01:33:05] I thought it was a metaphor. The state of the house in the garden was a metaphor for where things are with the country at this point. Yeah. I agree with you. Like, we're trying, it was beautiful, and then it's not. And then it's not. Mm-hmm. For whatever reason. Yep. For in the name of God or the greater good, it's become this. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:33:35] But I hadn't thought about, yeah, I think you're totally right that it's about the reason why they showed him in advancing stages of probably Parkinson's is to suggest that she's neglecting him. Mm-hmm.

[01:33:46] But the interesting thing about the way she played it and him too, especially in the first scene, is it was still kind of humanizing because even though I think she's very misguided, I like that she plays the character as if she's feeling vulnerable or, you know, she's hopeful. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:28] Yeah. Yeah. And then she's not like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:58] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's going to New Bethlehem.

[01:35:24] She's going to New Bethlehem. Yeah.

[01:36:18] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's like a reasonable person relative to the other people that we've seen on the show.

[01:36:41] But I think he's the villain this season and I think he's going to, well, I'll say more about that later. No, I agree. I do have a similar feeling about him as well.

[01:36:57] I did love, I have to tell you the exchange between Lawrence and Serena when they're talking about Naomi because she's like, so Mrs. Lawrence and Lawrence says Putnam came to an unfortunate end.

[01:37:14] And Serena says, I can't say I'm surprised. And to me, I mean, Serena is very smart. And there's just, to me, if you compare Naomi to Serena, there's no way Naomi even comes close to a quarter of Serena's like star power.

[01:37:42] Um, but I do agree with you too. I think she was incredibly bored. Yep. I was thinking June would probably be bored in that camp in Alaska too. Yeah. They have that in common. Yeah. Still in a boring place. Well, they had the taste of going and doing and moving and shaking and making things happen. And yeah. Yeah.

[01:38:09] I, um, so when Abigail first admitted the Abigail's the woman who's in charge of this place that she knew who Serena was, she says, I read your book and I welcome you here anyway. And Serena said, well, I know what people think of the things I've done. She was, what do you think of the things you've done? I wanted to serve the glory of God. So she's just defending herself. Is that all? Well, it didn't go as planned. It went wrong all by itself. Like Abigail's nudging her.

[01:38:38] I was wrong. Serena says, and Abigail goes, so set it right. You know, he's watching. And I think the point of that was that Serena has some guilt and this really had an impact on her to tell, to set her into like my new purpose can be trying to make up for it. Just like Lawrence, you know? Yeah. Um, but it, when she said she was wrong, it, it made me wish I could ask her, well, tell me exactly what you were wrong about.

[01:39:06] Cause, um, we know that she still thinks most of the women of the U S were immoral and all the stuff she said on the train, who knows how much of that she really believes. And it was just like an emotional reaction, but we don't know for sure what she thinks was wrong with Gilead. I think the thing that I mostly am pretty sure about is she regrets that women had no voices and no power. Yeah.

[01:39:33] But I, I don't know how much she grits or what she regrets, but I know I wouldn't trust her to build some community that I would have to be a part of even at this moment, you know? But Jason, the question is this, did she dislike that women didn't have a voice or did she dislike that she didn't have a voice? Right. That's a good question. Cause I think it's a lot of the latter. Right. If she was a man, she'd probably be perfectly fine with what's happening. Yeah. Maybe so.

[01:40:04] Okay. So there's a couple of things I want to, well, we've covered so much of this episode already. So what I'm going to talk about is Moira, Luke, the disappearance and the two month time jump. Cause we kind of get a two month time jump in the middle of the episode.

[01:40:31] And June is not able to reach Luke or Moira. Doesn't know what they've done. So she ends up having to contact Mark and find out what's going on and then realize that she's got to go East to save the day because only June Osborne can. Um, and so she's on, she's going to work with Mark.

[01:41:00] And the only other thing, um, part of this, but not actually part of it, but kind of loosely connected is Rita wants to go back to Gilead to try to find her son or her sister. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, I was sad about that because I'm afraid for her to go there.

[01:41:26] It made me wonder, cause she's just talking about how she, uh, people in her apartment complex got pushed out and have to go to a shelter. And she just thinks rightly so that Canada is just trying to push the refugees out. And then she says she might go to New Bethlehem to look for her sister. But I wonder if there's a part of her that's like, maybe I, maybe that's the place for me. Um, she hasn't acclimated well and yeah, it's hard to acclimate when they're rising up against you.

[01:41:56] Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm also worried that New Bethlehem is like a smoke and mirrors thing. That's going to end up being just like regular Gilead. Next point. Yeah. Um, so that's pretty much, I think everything I had really was just to talk about the disappearance. They went on a mission and they disappeared. And June is a bit frantic that she can't get a hold of him.

[01:42:24] And so she has to take matters into her own hands as usual. Cause June Osborne saves the day. What is this? Number 125. Yeah. Does anyone have anything about this episode before we move on? Yes. Awesome. All right. So I wanted to take a little couple snippets from Gabriel, um, Rose's father. It's Gabriel Warden, right? Mm hmm.

[01:42:51] So the one thing is he says that Canada wants to, Canada wants to socialize with New Bethlehem because they want to import clean water and produce and sell the Gileadians cars and electronics. And, and then, um, so I thought that was interesting.

[01:43:15] We kind of know like Canada's motivation for normalizing relations with Gilead. And then I thought it was interesting. The conversation where he's wardens talking to Nick and says, kind of, he kind of says like the whole reason this all started was cause they didn't have real father. So it's like to bring back the nuclear family, right? Um, 1950s scenario.

[01:43:43] And he tells Nick that his mom had to work outside the home as if that was a sin or a shame or terrible. And Nick counters that with saying that his mother liked her job. And he just completely dismisses this. He only believes in his own narrative. And he says that no woman would choose to work in a diner and leave her family at home. He's only interested in his own story. He isn't listening to anything Nick says.

[01:44:12] He just wants Nick to fall in line. It's just like Serena. I was saying earlier how there's one right way to be in. This is it. And if you're not this, then you're wrong. Same thing. Yeah. They'll make a great couple. Hopefully they agree. And he kind of insinuates that they did, they created Gilead so that their children would have a more stable home life, nuclear family. But the reality is that if Nick has a daughter, he's going to ship her off at 12 to be traded

[01:44:42] like cattle when she's still a little girl to the highest bidder to a life of servitude without choices, without identity and without bodily autonomy. So I guess he only means it's making it all better for the men, for the boys, not the girls, not the women. They're just an extension of getting me the life I want. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:45:08] I mean, I would guess that he would say these women are, you know, playing out the Lord's plan or feeling, you know, good about serving God or something like that. Well, it's interesting that his daughter didn't get shipped off at 12, right? She seemed to have had a say in who she married and is certainly of an older age. Yeah. But that may have been because of her disability.

[01:45:39] Possibly. Somehow. Yeah. Maybe she was unwanted. I don't want to argue with you. I'm just trying to make sure we understand what actually happened. But yeah, maybe he protected her is what you're saying. We don't know, but it's just interesting to me that he's so ready to sign up his granddaughter to that life. Yeah.

[01:45:59] I think commanders that comes with a level of permission to bend the rules. Maybe. Yeah. For their own children. Yeah. He's high. Right. Yeah. He's high ranking. Yeah. Possibly. Possibly. And then the only other note I had is Lawrence and Naomi bickering like an old married couple

[01:46:28] was just hilarious. I love it so much. Yes. I do. Naomi is redecorating and Lawrence is losing control of his house. He's not happy about it either. And Naomi says, but those are ugly and they ruin the room. And Lawrence very meekly kind of lays down the law to her and adds in, you know, I'm a commander. Oh, I love it. I hope that.

[01:46:55] The way he says things, it's not even just the lines. Yeah. It's the way he says them. Like the reason I have this room is that I can keep my things in it. And I'm just. Yeah. And I'm betting that Naomi has figured out that he has a soft underbelly. Mm hmm. But I loved that. Yeah. I mean, for them, it's a marriage of convenience, really. I think. Yeah. He's not having sex with her. No. Definitely not. He's not trying to make a baby. No.

[01:47:25] Definitely not. Yeah. He's not having sex with her. Yeah. Okay. I think we are ready to move on to episode three, devotion. And this one was directed by David Lester. So this one started with the Lara's theme from Dr. Zhivago, like with a female vocal, which stood out to me right away. Mm hmm.

[01:47:52] Um, but I think we're back around to Jason. Where do you want to start on this one? New Bethlehem. Um, this episode was more centered on that. And, and we heard about this new Bethlehem initiative of Lawrence's last season, kind of a liberalized area. And I never felt like I had a great handle on what it was all about. But now after these three episodes, I do.

[01:48:17] Um, it's, it's this sort of a way to advertise Gilead to the rest of the world as, Hey, look, we're not so bad. We're reforming even. And the reason to do that is to get people to send refugees back to Gilead, which you need people. If you're a country can't have them all leaving and probably maybe equally as importantly,

[01:48:44] start to normalize relations with other countries so they can have peace and they can trade with them and stuff like that. Get, get, get foreign countries to start working with them again. So. I still worry. Yeah, I'm getting to it. Yeah. You, you lay it out, Jason. So I think we're on the same page with this. Yeah, I think so. So, but right now it's going well. And I think, you know, Lawrence, well, Lawrence tells commander warden that new Bethlehem is

[01:49:14] drowning in applications and warden says new Bethlehem was a crazy idea, but one built on mercy and forgiveness. And for that, I commend you. And Lawrence is like, well, it's also a moneymaker. The whole trade thing that you guys mentioned with cars and clean water and all that. And the hardliners had security concerns, but they like being able to get Mercedes and Rolex. So they, you know, that's the thing about these quote unquote hardliners is if they get something good out of it, then suddenly they're supposedly Christian ideals just go out the window.

[01:49:43] Hence the existence of Jezebels, you know? Right. Um, then warden wants Serena involved to welcome citizens back home. And yeah, I wonder if he wants her there so he can court her. But Lawrence is like, that's actually a good idea and convinces her to, to help. And, um, and it just so happens. It's a good, it's good timing because I think it, um, aligns with where she's at, where,

[01:50:12] uh, they both are feeling guilty and they want to try to make a change. And so then you see Serena talking to these foreign dignitaries to try to convince them that a new Bethlehem is real and worthwhile. And she says, to be honest, I shared your concerns and I'm unfortunately proof of them. When Gilead clamped down in force, I lost everything. I lost my identity, my voice. I did terrible things because I felt powerless. And so I exerted power over those around me.

[01:50:41] I'll spend the rest of my days trying to atone for that. And I do ask her forgiveness every day from those that I hurt. And I think there's some truth in that for sure. I think she believes what she's saying there. Yeah. About what she did. And she said, I'm not even certain if God will forgive me, but I do know that God has guided me back here to give, to get, to give me a chance to try a new Bethlehem. Women can read and write and work. I do not, I would not have come back if that were not the case.

[01:51:10] And as she's saying all this, Commander Warden is watching and I think he's probably wary of what she's saying, but thinks this is a good strategic move. It's okay for this little tiny place to have this. If it gets us what we want with trade and everything. Right. And does he think that she's just acting, putting on the show they've asked her to do? Right. And I don't know.

[01:51:37] My guess is, I'm not sure, but I would lean towards, he probably thinks that she's not acting, but that doesn't matter to him because he's going to control it, you know? And, and I think the point is just to make Gilead look like they're trying to progress in the eyes of the rest of the world and to provide a place where dissenters and potential troublemakers like June could go back to and be kept in check.

[01:52:06] And the Gilead can keep an eye on them without using force. And that's, I know that's what you were thinking, Daphne. And I read that authoritarian regimes have often used what's called controlled liberalization or PR friendly zones to improve their image and lure exiles back in China. promising Hong Kong would retain freedoms after the handover from the UK in 97. And then once global pressure lessened, Beijing cracked down.

[01:52:34] It was so heartbreaking to watch. And it just showed that the promise of freedom there was strategic and not sincere. Yeah. Cuba developed tourist bubbles with better conditions, amenities, and looser restrictions. And these areas gave the impression of openness and progress while most citizens lived actually under strict control. modern Russia has PR tricks like controlled opposition parties that aren't really real state run NGOs,

[01:53:02] Western friendly narratives to seem like they're democratic or progressive, but they're actually have full authoritarian control. And, um, even scarier, the Assad regime in, in, uh, Syria has in recent years called for refugees to return, claiming the war is over and it's safe. And then many who returned were in prison, tortured or disappeared. So it was just a total trap Mac masked as reconciliation. And it reminded me how they kept wanting June to go back there.

[01:53:31] And so, yeah, I think that this is a total sham as far as most of the commanders in Gilead are concerned. I think Lawrence is sincere. I do too. And Serena too, but I don't think warden is at all. And when later Lawrence says, we'll have to expand this because it's so successful. And warden is like, well, let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet. I don't know how ready this country is for one more new Bethlehem, let alone a bigger one.

[01:54:02] And then, um, Naomi says bigger is better. Right. Which is really funny. But, um, Another one of her bumbles. Yeah. She couldn't say anything right in the episode. Oh my gosh. Serena says, if there's demand for our brethren to return home, don't we have an obligation to meet it? And Lawrence goes, and wouldn't we as a nation emerge better and stronger for it? And warden goes, we'll keep the conversation going. So that's pretty much means no, I think, you know?

[01:54:29] Well, I do wonder if Lawrence will find a way to remove any obstacles that get in his path like he has in the past. I have a feeling that before that happens, if it does, that this season, as it plays out, we're going to see that new Bethlehem isn't all that they're wanting it to be, you know? Yeah. I think that's going to be part, a big part of the plot. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:54:58] It's propaganda, kind of. Yep. It starts out real, like Hong Kong started out real. But over time, slipped right into authoritarian control like the rest of China. I thought both of them were pretty believable. You know, Joseph says, Serena asked him why he's there. And Joseph says, could be my dead wife, could be God, could be my guilty conscious.

[01:55:28] We broke this country and now we have to fix it. And he seemed like he meant it. And Serena seemed very believable in her speech. Do they mean it? Like, are they trying to bring down Gilead from the inside? I don't think so. I think they're trying to reform it. They're trying to make it better. I think they're trying to fix. I think that's the same thing in a way, though. It's not good enough. Like. Oh, I agree.

[01:55:56] Serena wants still a very narrow version. It's just different. It's kinder. It's like. Right. Lawrence is saying no human rights violations, but it's still a narrow version of what people might not want to be. You know, it's not freedom. Right. Right. If you can't leave the country, you're not free. Right. Yeah. I think. Yeah. They're just like, OK. OK.

[01:56:26] As long as people aren't getting raped or murdered, then whatever else we do should be fine. Right. You know, and women are allowed to read. The littlest of things. Taking care of everything. The smallest concessions. But. Yeah. I mean, those are big, but it doesn't then mean that everything else is OK. Right. And then when Serena's talking to them, she's saying. Um. You know.

[01:56:56] I feel bad about everything that I did, but then she's like, um. And my son wouldn't exist if it weren't for the measures that Gilead had taken. Gilead clean the water. We clean the air. Our women are getting pregnant and our children are thriving. And that is not anything. That is not something that any of you can say on behalf of your country. And I'm like, OK, well, now you're standing up for Gilead. And. Are you standing up for the handmaids or not? Right.

[01:57:25] Are you saying the ends justifies the means? Because that sounds like what you're saying. Yeah. And I mean. It works. It's like then at the end, they're like the dignitaries are like, OK, we'll go back and. Yeah. Recommend that if as long as the refugees are returning willingly, that we will stand by it as long as we can have a UN people come in and inspect it or something like that. And they know that the.

[01:57:54] Fertility rate is a big thing for other countries. So they're, you know, Serena has her newborn in her arms. They parade Rose out to show her big pregnant belly and they're just shoving it in these countries with. You know, infertility issues, they're just shoving it in their faces and they're lapping it up. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's very successful.

[01:58:24] Serena is a great influencer. Good at her job. Yeah. Wendy, what do you have? I'll just tack on some thoughts that I had about that. I was thinking about. Gilead improving their country's fertility rates. Mm hmm.

[01:58:50] And it seems like if we're going to take what they say is fact, which is a little hard to do. But it seems like they have they have done this right. They have improved their fertility rates much more than other countries have been successful at. So that's what we're led to believe. And is it because they have improved the pollution and clean the water and their food is is healthier and better?

[01:59:19] Is that why the fertility rates have been increased? And I thought, yeah, that's a good thing. Right. That's you know, if I if if I'm a couple and my desire is to have a baby and I have options. And that's a good thing. That's what everybody wants. But they're sending people to the colonies to their deaths to clean it all up. Is that part of it or not? I don't know.

[01:59:48] Like, like, right. Is that part of it? And I just thought, like, if they had only done that. Without. Without becoming Nazis, you know, imagine if they had been able to clean up the pollution, but still had a fertility program that was rooted in science, meaning men who are sterile, stop pretending they're not sterile like that's the stupidest thing ever.

[02:00:17] You're assigning handmaids to sterile men to have sex with that, you know, a good portion of them are never going to have babies because they're sterile instead of having intercourse once a month. And I'm not saying with the handmaids because no one should be doing that. That's rape. But actually monitor ovulation periods with science to determine the best times to get pregnant. You know, how about IVF?

[02:00:46] Like, you know, rejecting science in a scientific problem is just moronic. And, you know, just based on real life, it's pretty proven in countries around the world that have strong social safety nets, affordable child care and family friendly policies often see higher birth rates. Hmm.

[02:01:16] Um, and I just thought, like, what if you took the good pieces of Gilead, you know, which I guess, you know, clean water is good. healthy food is good what if you could have done that without having it be at the expense of of women's being sold into sexual slavery and and um you know becoming nazis and fascists

[02:01:45] wouldn't that have been great yeah we we've talked about that kind of thing before on this podcast i think like let's come up with some solutions where we're all working together rather than where we're forcing people to do horrible things yeah you know yeah all right okay well i am going

[02:02:10] to shift us away from character two characters that we have not seen yet in this series until this episode and that is not lydia and her quest to find janine and what she's learned about what's really going on because lydia has not given up on janine obviously um she feels a connection to her

[02:02:37] and so she has been looking for her and trying to figure out what is going on and when he finds out when she finds out where she is um she's horrified like she goes there she tries to get janine out of the situation that she's in tries to get her back to the lawrence household without even talking to

[02:03:05] janine if that even you know would be what she wants and lydia seems genuinely horrified that this is a situation that the women have been put in after serving as handmaids and janine just basically you know explains to her most of the handmaids end up in the colonies we're the lucky ones yeah she feels

[02:03:33] genuinely grateful that she's there which is horrifying it's like every time you try to help you end up making things worse worse you told all of us we were special and so not only is janine there but other handmaids that lydia has worked with are also there and she points them out to lydia and talks about them being yeah the lucky ones and by the storyline

[02:04:05] that because you and i talked about this so horrible to them at first and now she's like you all bore fruit i was told you'd be rewarded for your service and like she doesn't she's shocked to realize that gilead could do something so horrific and i guess in her mind the punishments that she served were righteous and this is not this is sinful but there was also a whole storyline where lydia knew

[02:04:34] dirt on a bunch of commanders and used that to jockey for power and it just doesn't seem believable to me that she would be the kind of insider that would know all that and then would be shocked that this was happening but that's what we see i mean in the reaction that she gives that's what it appears like yeah i think she had the evidence in front of her but she never let it in because she couldn't

[02:04:59] she had to believe that what she had done all these years and the hurt and the pain she had caused was actually for a good thing for a right thing and and she had to believe that so even though multiple people told her and she saw it she didn't let it in yeah that's kind of

[02:05:22] how i thought about well now the doors are open yeah and she can't ignore it it's right in front of her face yeah and janine even says to her if you really want to help forget me like janine's done with this like she wants nothing to do with lydia she wants nothing to do with any of that again

[02:05:41] i think everything that went on with i think it was was it esther who was basically raped by naomi's husband and pregnant and you know all of these things then even before that with the poisoning um janine's just

[02:06:07] done with all of this she wants nothing to do with it anymore and lawrence even tells lydia janine's gone she was gone the moment you got your hands on her do yourself a favor and move on and still lydia believes god exists in the darkest of places and i'm not sure how many people

[02:06:32] in that place that janine is in believe that i think you know lydia is someone that we've seen the terrible things that she has done and we've also seen her make sure that putnam ended up getting his comeuppance by being killed only because it was convenient for lawrence and nick to kill him

[02:07:01] true true like they wouldn't have killed him because of that it was it was to their benefit to kill him and i think otherwise they wouldn't have cared they don't they don't care what happened to esther they don't know no i'm sure they don't yeah for lydia yeah she probably saw it as a play that she was able to make yeah and so i mean they wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for her

[02:07:28] right so that's it i mean we we get a little bit of janine we know she's still alive i was glad then lydia she's still alive but they owe me to give janine another chance and oh my goodness and she says no that she was a what did she say rude something little bitch yeah and lydia says to lawrence if she misbehaves i will make myself available for corrections no matter the severity

[02:07:57] and he goes well that's tempting again uh bradley whitford and his portrayal of this character it's one of the best things about this show i did think janine showed that she still cared about lydia like she seemed honestly concerned about her she was like are you okay yeah that's there's a couple things like she was shaking and um and she said are you all right and

[02:08:24] then when she talks to lawrence lawrence mentioned something about i heard you were sick so i feel like there's something with that yeah but we don't know yet but um lawrence also blamed lydia for janine's plight she's he said janine's gone she was gone the moment you got your hands on her you know that and so it just feels like this started last season if not the season before where there's all

[02:08:50] these forces to get lydia to be disillusioned with gilead i feel like i'm i'm buying that i know you're having troubles with it jason a little bit yeah but um it's yeah i don't know yeah i like your explanation of it wendy where she kept it out yeah she blocked it out until now it's being pushed in

[02:09:19] her face and she can't ignore it anymore well i think it's been a hard long journey for her to you know to shed that gilead hard stony outer wall and she's finally letting what's really happening inside and she's finally coming to a place where she realizes she's been wrong i mean she hasn't said

[02:09:44] that though it's just as hard for me to sympathize with her as it is serena honestly just because yeah such horrible things i agree yep but yeah but as far as whether it makes sense as a story that's a different question and yeah it is a little bit hard for me to buy but i i've kind of forgotten

[02:10:03] the details now so i don't know i i thought this was our second chance to see jezebels i think we've been there at least three times yeah oh that's right there was it's been a while it has been a while since we've been there yeah and i thought that was you know such a visceral

[02:10:30] change in what we see of gilead this is like the dark underbelly of gilead definitely up on top they keep the rape surrounded by religion and ceremony and rules um but down below it's right in your face and overt and yeah wow i never really thought about that way but it's the same

[02:10:59] yeah it is the same i don't think i thought about it like that you paint a pretty picture for the world to see but you don't show what's underneath the skirt i mean i thought it's wrong and what's happening in both places is wrong and that jezebels is just proof that these men aren't the religion part is for for them is just an excuse to take power you know but what i didn't think about is they're just raping women in both places they're just getting their getting off yeah and they have

[02:11:28] ants in both places and martha's in both places and commanders in both like it's all the same people it's just the different setting yeah crazy yep all right jason what do you have next oh it's my turn lawrence and serena get on the same page i really liked that they took the time to have them have this conversation about new bethlehem before they went into this endeavor together um because they're

[02:11:57] very different people and so they needed to figure out how to work together and she goes i know why you chose me but i need to know that god chose you and then she goes and when i surveyed all that i had done and toiled to achieve everything was meaningless chasing after the wind nothing was gained under the sun and he goes oh i'm sorry to hear that yeah and she goes ecclesiastes 2 11 and so i looked that up

[02:12:24] per chat gpt this verse comes from the reflections of king solomon who's exploring the meaning of life in chapter two he describes indulging in pleasure work acquiring wealth and great achievements building houses planting vineyards amassing silver and servants etc he does all this to see if any of it brings lasting satisfaction your meaning but verse 11 is the conclusion of that exploration despite achieving

[02:12:48] everything a person could desire he finds it empty like trying to catch the wind no real fulfillment no ultimate gain so i think the reason she's quoting that is she doesn't want to be a part of that if that's what this is for um for lawrence she wants to be godly and therefore meaningful and wants to make sure right and it's just the same thing with her she needs him to be a very specific thing in order to be right she needs him to be a pious christian who says and does things properly according to how she sees

[02:13:18] the world and and he's just too much of an individual for that and i love him for it he could try to fake it but he doesn't he's unapologetically himself um he goes serena if there is a god and she goes if and he goes it's not in empty words and real weird rituals and he's definitely not taking attendance and then she goes why are you here what is driving you if it isn't god could be god could be my dead wife could be my guilty conscious well then if it isn't god isn't that god working through you

[02:13:45] sure you can't prove it i can't disprove it and as they wrote in the book of mormon that's kind of what god was going for right she goes the book of mormon the musical who are you that was the best line i mean joseph lawrence that's who he is i mean tell me i'm not crazy for being here with you and then he he says you know we broke this country and now we have to fix it and that's really what

[02:14:10] aligns them that they both have this um guilty conscious and they want to reform and they're really on the same page about that um but the fact that he's clearly not as devout if at all as he's supposed to be makes me wonder how he got to where he is and um yeah i don't know i mean i think he was just probably faking it for convenience just like he faked being with the handmaid and

[02:14:37] everything else he's so smart like he's everything he's done has been a calculated move it really has i think he does things for himself but he's also i mean there have been other things he's done that have been some kindness these last two seasons especially he's become one of my favorite

[02:15:00] characters on the show yeah he's great wendy i can't believe i'm here but i'm gonna talk about june's love triangle oh here we go june and nick reunite yet again they seem to be able to run in and out of each other quite often nick comes to her rescue she asks him to help her he of course

[02:15:31] says yes he blows off his big day as the mayor of new bethlehem to help june he tells her that he loves her and he tells her basically that he only loves her right he doesn't love his wife he yeah he made it very clear he seems pretty miserable about his predicament i don't blame him for being

[02:15:55] miserable if that was my life i think i'd be pretty miserable too um he knows he's putting himself at great risk but he can't seem to not do it um but at the end of the episode like we talked about earlier they both make it pretty clear that they intend to see each other again this isn't the end

[02:16:16] um and what a group dynamic we have you know nick maura june and luke like that's the foursome that we never predicted seeing together yeah i love maura's first meeting with nick nick wow what's up man i like even before that she's like that's not mark when she realizes that june's there with

[02:16:45] right nick somebody right yeah you can tell in her voice it's like okay you're the one that i've heard so much about okay that's you but she didn't need to say much to convey that no and so they're caught out almost immediately um by a patrol and nick kills them you know kills his fellow guardians yeah and it

[02:17:08] just seems to be no end to what he will do for june and he seems pretty miserable about it like he he says it to himself like i'm risking my life my family my country everything to help your husband um you've chosen over yeah it's pretty fucked up it feels like i i don't want to harp on it too much

[02:17:35] but it just feels kind of high school to me like i guess he gets he keeps getting called to a situation where if he doesn't go then she may die so yeah i can't blame him for going and helping her it would be pretty cruel not to but then again he's also putting himself in a really risky situation i guess i'm just saying i'm not i'm not like complaining about him doing that but i don't know it just feels

[02:18:01] like a high school romance to me i i feel like they do have chemistry yeah but not nearly to me the chemistry that june and luke have to me there's more sexual heat between june and um and uh what's his name nick yeah right it always feels more like they're they just want to go find a room

[02:18:24] and with luke it's more complicated i don't know i i just watched season five and and luke and june have some chemistry really okay yeah yeah i was glad to see that because it seemed like i remember when she first got back from uh gilead that that was going to be gone and then it came back yeah yeah i think they found each other again but like i'm sure he's a complication in their relationship but now

[02:18:51] she's just talking to nick like you know let's not pretend we're not going to see each other again and luke's like right over there and i'm like i don't like that i it makes me feel bad for luke but i also think that she has to be careful because she needs nick to come save the day when she needs him and she can't cut him completely loose if she does he's not going to be there

[02:19:17] although i think he still would be there because he is helplessly hopelessly in love with her heels and that's just how it is and with some people that's just how it is like you there's the one person the one soulmate and that's it i agree it is and you can't get over it portray it so well because even when she said that like it's just uh you know well i'll see you later

[02:19:43] she walks away a little bit and then she turns back and looks at him again and then the camera goes to nick and i almost get that feeling like yeah i know what it's like when you're really into somebody you look at them and you get the butterflies like i'm like don't give me butterflies looking at nick show i don't want that no no one wants to see that and i think some people do there's a lot of fans online i know that are shipping hard for nick and june yeah sorry well june walking away from nick

[02:20:13] her expression at the very end of that walking away was i was kind of like okay yeah um you got two men we know we get it there's two one thing i wonder is she said you know we always say goodbye and who are we kidding let's just say i'll see you later and that made me wonder if maybe this is the last time they're going to see each other sort of ironically you know i'm so i don't know

[02:20:42] jason i don't think so i don't know because i kind of agree with you on that because the expectation of them seeing each other again and then something happening to him because he's playing a very dangerous game and he has really from the beginning so i don't know what will come of it i'm really interested to see what happens i feel like we're in the end game now

[02:21:11] seven episodes to go yeah yep so there's a lot of last of characters like nick and yeah that we see we have high stakes yeah okay the only other point i have is basically just moira and nick talking

[02:21:36] while they're there it's basically um them being trapped at the water park and luke feeling like he had to do something he wanted to be part of doing something and he doesn't want to disappoint june by not succeeding because he feels like he's been on the sidelines for too long while she's been in the fight doing all the things she's been doing moira basically tells him you're the best man i know

[02:22:03] you don't have to prove yourself and luke's biggest thing is he wants to get his daughter back and i when you look at that and you hear him saying it and you realize how much time has passed that his that hannah has been in gilead away from her father and away from her mother

[02:22:29] she's been in gilead being raised by other people and growing up longer with these other people than she was with her parents and i just started thinking about what it's going to be like if they did get her back and what would um what would that look like she's a totally different person she's probably lived more of her life there than with them

[02:22:58] yeah i think and especially luke i mean june has seen her here and there and had experiences with her but luke hasn't seen her since the day in the woods when they tried to escape yeah it's been a long time so yeah that's my last point jason

[02:23:22] um let's see i had a point about yeah saving luke and moira and i don't know if we really mentioned it but mayday's plan is to figure out who the commanders were that responsible for shooting down the planes when they were trying to go in and get hannah back and find out when and where they'll be most vulnerable and then kill them and i guess luke and moira's job was just to pick up a bag with information

[02:23:49] and then wait for a ride home and then the patrols got in the way of pickup and mark called nick to help but he didn't respond um one thing i think i don't know maybe warden is going to be one of the guys that they're trying to kill you know that they decide they need to kill wouldn't be surprised there's

[02:24:12] something about him that just seems like he's a wolf in sheep's clothing exactly that's what i think uh i'm not sure all the timing makes sense because like moira and luke go on a mission to get this information then word comes back that they're stuck in no man's land behind gilead patrols and then june

[02:24:33] travels from alaska to wherever in canada to help and uh mark sends this messenger to nick so that he can then go meet june so she can get him to clear a path for luke and moira and i'm like how long do these gilead patrols go then that luke and moira were sitting there blocked while june traveled from alaska to canada i don't know it seems yeah i don't know i guess it doesn't it's like i'm just you

[02:25:02] know what it's like varies going across the sea in game of thrones yeah yeah yeah but we already talked about everything else i had to say about all of that yeah wendy do you have any other notes um a couple notes we see that germany appears to be on the side of gilead i don't think we've known

[02:25:25] this before well no i think it's visiting dignitaries who are there to be try to be sold on new bethlehem yeah so i don't think they're necessarily on the side they're just there to hear the spiel about new bethlehem okay he almost seemed like a like a subservient you know what i mean i don't know i

[02:25:48] got that feeling well nick was hosting them yeah yeah mark threatens nick that if he doesn't do what mark wants him to do he'll expose him but i don't think that's true no i don't think he will well nick said no you won't i'm no use to you if i'm dead and i'm like you're no use to him if you don't help him either though so yeah that's true yeah oh okay it's just that when june hears that

[02:26:15] serena's helping to sell new bethlehem you know like she didn't know what happened to serena after she got yeah pushed up the train and then was it mark telling her this i forget who yeah it was mark yeah and he's and she's like oh is she okay is the baby okay and then mark's like yeah she's being treated like a queen and she's like kind of miffed all of a sudden not surprising she always comes out on top but it made me think about how serena's status shift around so much on the show like she

[02:26:45] was this religious luminary then she became a wife of a preeminent commander but she had no power anymore and then she was a prisoner in canada and then she became a gilead ambassador in canada and then she was a prisoner at the wheelers and then she was a refugee threatened with death and now she's a new bethlehem diplomat being treated like a queen so it's just all yeah back and forth

[02:27:09] see i thought june's smile was actually not like she's happy for serena but like of course she's coming up on top like yeah like and kind of like a little bit a little smidge of like respect you know like of her being able and also in that same conversation i kind of forgot about it mark

[02:27:32] tells her that nick isn't responding to his calls and june says something and he says but he'll respond to you and june has this little secret smug smile that's like yeah he will yep yep she has power i mean june has power he does well and he he's there and he'll do anything and risk

[02:28:01] anything to help her like that i mean you know that's a pretty obvious demonstration of someone's

[02:28:09] love absolutely well i think we have covered just about everything that there is yeah whoo marathon

[02:28:47] so let's talk about some news okay so the hollywood reporter says that the testaments which i think everyone knows is the upcoming handmaid's tale sequel series it's based on the 2019 book by margaret atwood that show goes into production on april 7th as we're recording this it's two days

[02:29:10] from now but when you listen it will have already started so it's in production the series stars and dowd who will be replies reprising her role as aunt lydia and has elizabeth moss as an executive producer and former handmaid's tale showrunner bruce miller will be the showrunner which we already knew for a long time yeah yeah he's been working on that he took the last season of handmaid's tale

[02:29:37] he stepped away as showrunner he's still written a couple of episodes but he wanted to focus on testaments yep he's continuing the story this whole big margaret atwood world he's gonna just continue to grow it that's cool and i we could talk about what it's about but i feel like since it's a sequel it might spoil something in handmaid's tale so i feel like we shouldn't say too much more about it

[02:30:04] but it definitely does like it's a great book but if you read it you will absolutely be spoiled so at this point i would just wait till the end of the season yeah let's get through the season and then we can talk about it even though i've read it i'm still like okay i think i know some big sweeping things that are gonna happen this season but i don't know how and i don't know who's gonna survive or not necessarily so right but uh if you are curious you could read that book or just go online there's plenty of information about it they're they're not shy talking about it in the interviews

[02:30:34] and um you know articles about the testaments or anything no release date has been announced that i could see but they're we're thinking early 2026 since they're just starting production and then uh one more story uh hollywood reporter was talking about how since the last season of the handmaid's tale elizabeth moss

[02:30:56] has become a mother for the first time and she talked about it at paley fest she hadn't really said much about it publicly but she says it was incredibly meaningful to be able to end the show as a mom i gotta tell you because i'm playing this character who is this iconic mother figure all mothers are heroines and she's definitely a heroine and then in an interview with the

[02:31:21] hollywood reporter she was talking about how the way to becoming a mother hit her as the sixth and final season plot progressed she said it's such an important part of the story it was just this beautiful synergy i think maybe is the word this coming together of art and life that was undoubtedly incredibly incredibly meaningful i'm really glad that i got to have this last season playing june with a little bit more of a visceral emotional experience of some of the things that june is talking about

[02:31:49] or fighting for how do you say uh luke's actor's last name for benny i think it's fuck benny yeah okay ot fuck benny who plays luke also spoke about his celebratory reunion with moss when they returned to set after more than a two-year break he said the main thing that happened on the first day of the set is that i got to meet lizzie as a mother the show is so much about people and their children and about

[02:32:16] motherhood and what it is to give birth and lizzie went through that i was just so happy for her so day one for me the big thing i remember was just meeting my dear friend my colleague and just knowing that she had been through this extraordinary experience so yeah i mean i think that's really cool i would have never thought that elizabeth moss already wasn't a mother based on her performance but

[02:32:40] yeah yeah she can really have that informant even more absolutely so now we are going to transition to the mayday briefing yeah so if if this isn't your jam we're going to talk about left-leaning politics then i would end

[02:33:02] the podcast here real stuff thanks for listening everybody so this week i was inspired and also terrified by an article in wired by manisha chrish chrishman titled far-right influencers are hosting a 10 000 per person matchmaking weekend to repopulate the earth and this article is available online it's

[02:33:29] not behind a paywall so you can check that out i don't know if we can put it in the show notes what do you think jason yeah absolutely okay great so there was a natal conference held in austin texas in march of this year in a highly controversial event organized by individuals with ties to the far right and strong pronatalist agenda its primary goal according to its organizers is to address

[02:33:58] declining birth rates and to encourage family formation the event which featured speakers associated with conspiracy theories and eugenics includes unique matchmaking opportunities for attendees some of which could result in marriages right on the spot there the conference's goal is to promote a world where children can have grandchildren with a heavy focus on matchmaking and promoting large

[02:34:26] families attendees are asked to provide personal information about their values desired number of children and are encouraged to consider marriage as part of the event's activities the conference's emphasis on matchmaking reflects a deeper concern within the pronatalist movement about falling birth rates which many believe poses an existential threat to human civilization notable figures associated with the movement movement such as

[02:34:55] elon musk have supported the idea and musk has even promoted the natal conference the movement which has gained traction among tech elites has been criticized for its racist and classic classist undertones which some supporters advocating for eugenics or promoting selective breeding there are also claims that the movement

[02:35:20] targets a specific demographic demographic those deemed intelligent or worthy of propagating the species with participants even being screened for intelligence which is hard to believe critics of the conference point to its connections to far-right ideologies with speakers like jack possobiak known for promoting conspiracy theories and

[02:35:46] edward dutton who advocates for pseudoscientific race theories the events organizational ties to these figures raise concerns about the political and ideological ideological ideological move motivations behind the conference moreover the high ticket prices for the event which ranged from five hundred dollars to ten thousand dollars further underscore the exclusive nature of the conference where only those who can afford it may

[02:36:13] participate in the matchmaking and discussions on repopulate repopulation like that's just terrifying to me yeah and and also it's all white people well yeah you know like it's it's all white people that believe in the same thing and you know believe in the eugenics of

[02:36:35] not melting in other races it sounds very familiar if you do any research into history of what happened in germany yeah totally yeah very much so and yeah there's this whole um

[02:36:58] sort of uh trend with people who've been successful in tech and elon musk is like at the top of that where they seem to think okay i figured out how to make a ton of money and make this successful company so that means that uh governments aren't as smart as me no one is as smart as me and i should just treat the world like it's my new company and i can make it really hum and

[02:37:27] just because you have intelligence or you know how to make a successful company that doesn't mean you're you have wisdom or that you know what it takes to make a world that is thriving i mean for one thing they don't you know elon musk came in and just cut a bunch of government programs that help a lot of people so there's a lot of suffering now because of what he's doing and uh so this is just one more

[02:37:53] example i think the reason why i'm bringing all this up is that these people who think they're so smart are just doing something so stupid and unwise yeah there are a lot of consequences when you take a chainsaw to something instead of you know auditing and understanding how something works

[02:38:19] yeah i mean they're just they're just hacking they're just disrupting that's because they have no no respect it's not meant to cut waste it's meant to disrupt to dismantle to destroy and they're going to rebuild it the way they want and the way that relates to what you're saying is it sounds like they think okay only a certain class of people are worthy and the rest can just go to hell you don't matter right yeah and

[02:38:49] it definitely mirrors themes in the handmaid's tale you know they're they're both dealing with the control of reproduction as the central theme where the state or specific groups they get to decide who gets to have babies and how it's going to happen um they exert significant influence over

[02:39:13] what conditions women's reproductive rights are stripped away they're used as tools for state power um and you know there's nothing wrong with having a large family but that should be a decision that you and your partner come to not mandated by your church or your culture group or your cult that you're in

[02:39:40] um and so the parallels between this dystopian vision of state controlled reproduction and the pro natalist agenda promoted by this conference you know there's similar fears about that happening um so like that spoke to me right away it seemed very handmaid's tale gilead when i said we were going to do the segment that would show how the world's become becoming more like the handmaid's tale i

[02:40:10] didn't expect it to be this exact yeah yeah and i wonder also because you know i i know a little bit about purity culture and things like that and i i wonder what were the age of the girls that went to that conference i mean i'm sure they were 18 but like what influence has their family has their church had

[02:40:38] on them going to a conference and getting married to a stranger you know i just and i don't know the outcome of that conference i'm curious now and i'm gonna look it up because it happened last month i mean it just happened like last weekend um so i'm curious to see what the results were but i i would really wonder

[02:40:57] about um you know girls being pressured to to do that yeah well we said that each one of these we were going to have some kind of a real world situation that we reported on and then something that you can do if you feel like you want to do something in this environment and one i mean last time i mentioned

[02:41:24] everyone should go to indivisible.org because they have a bunch of resources where you can find local groups you can find protests there were a lot about the protests that were that happened today as we're recording this the hands-off protests um but another thing that i find helpful for myself is to just stay

[02:41:44] informed and um i listen to podcasts like pod save america with uh former obama speech writers and colleagues who just talk about what's happening and they also have resources if you want to get more involved and actually do something but it's great just to keep informed if you're the kind of person that you know doesn't just get too stressed out hearing all that but i think it is worthwhile to stay

[02:42:11] informed we need to not shut down and ignore what's going on in the world because then it'll you'll just be you won't do anything about it and nobody will stop it so i think the more informed the better another resource that i really like is this guy brian tyler cohen on youtube he puts out videos all the time he talks with um a lot of smart people who are up close and personal with things that are going on around

[02:42:41] the world like lawyers and prosecutors and things like that so um those are two resources pod save america podcast and uh brian tyler cohen on youtube and the way that that ties into the handmaid's tale is if you block everything out like aunt lydia did yeah you don't see what's really happening in front of you so it's good to be informed and just do it at your own pace but make sure that you pay attention

[02:43:10] everyone has a different like approach to how they're keeping up to date on what's happening yeah and yeah it's just important to digest things as you can yeah well we have a private facebook group called the handmaid's tale mayday for any of you who would like a place to talk about the handmaid's

[02:43:33] tale and also a safe space to vent about the trump administration give each other support and talk about what we can do to fight back and save our democracy and the link for that will be in our show notes it's been really positive so far everybody's happy to have that place yeah there's some good pictures today of cool signs people saw at the protests yeah it's been good constructive discussion

[02:44:01] which i think is really healthy right now yep all right that's our show thanks for listening everyone

[02:44:25] next up is handmaid's tale season six episode four promotion what's that going to be about who's getting a promotion nick gets a promotion yeah he's been mia for the most important day and miraculously he's going to be promoted that seems to be what happens with him he just keeps getting yeah if you want to write in or send us a voice message about it you can find all our contact information at

[02:44:55] podcastica.com and why not while you're there check out some of our other shows we're finishing up a couple right now we are yellow jackets wts yellow jackets finale one more coming out yeah friday can't believe it we've seen it we know what happens i'm so excited for everyone to see it i'm so excited to talk about it it's gonna be great

[02:45:23] you too white lotus is ending yeah sunday yeah it's been so good we have an abundance of great tv but we have also some wonderful shows that are coming back as well the last of us we have handmaid's tale now and or is coming back as well so those are just three that are coming back

[02:45:53] right now yeah it's exciting all right that's our show thanks for listening everybody shall we say grace grace i'm more of a pray in silence type grace