31: "Execution" (S6E9)

[00:00:44] Podcastica them, my precious girls. Have mercy for what they've done, for they have been prisoners of wicked, godless men! Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Jason.

[00:01:13] And I'm an economist, I'm not James Bond. Just kidding, this is Madeline, also known as Red Leader Understudy. And this is the Handmaid's Tale podcast. This week we're covering the Handmaid's Tale season 6, episode 9, Execution. Oh wow. First, I want to welcome Madeline to the Handmaid's Tale podcast. We're so excited

[00:01:39] to have you with us this week to break down this episode. There's so much to talk about, so we're so glad that you could join us. Yeah, happy to be on the pod, official. Have you been listening the whole time? Yes. Yay! Yay! Yeah, the Handmaid's Tale was actually the first show I started listening to on Podcastica.

[00:02:03] Madeline is Red Leader Understudy who's called in several times with some very animated messages, so I'm excited to find out what you thought about this. What are you thinking about the last season so far? I went into this season knowing I was going to have to suspend some department of disbelief logistically, and even knowing that it's been hard to do, but... What do you mean? Like, what? Because it's...

[00:02:30] Oh, it's just like, why would this thing be done that way? Why would they be able to get away with this or that? Does everyone in Gilead suffer from face blindness? Like, why does no one recognize June? Yeah. But... The same things about the show I always liked are still there, which is like these really, really well-built relationships. And like, I mean, personally, I think every actor is killing it

[00:02:55] on this show. The cinematography is amazing. I've always, always loved that. The color work, just like, all the same things I always loved. But there's been some like real caperish shenanigans going on. I think the show's always had that to a degree, but more and more as it goes on. I mean, to get to the point where Jason is asking if the plan is to put Moira and June into oil drums. Yeah. As part of their stay point.

[00:03:24] I mean, this, not to get too much into it, but when Luke and all the rebels show up at the hanging, I'm like, all right, there's no security. They just got there somehow. La la la. I had the same reaction. Yeah. I'm like, what? What's happening? Yeah. But cool. At the same time, like, awesome. It's badass. I'm happy about it. Like, I'm thrilled that it seems like this is gonna end well for our

[00:03:53] potential, you know, the potential for it to be okay for our heroes. But... Aside from a sore throat, it's... Yeah. Wow. And yeah. Yeah. I have questions. I have thoughts. We will talk about them. Overall thoughts on this episode. Jason, what did you think? I loved it. I mean, aside from that very thing that we were just talking about that I just

[00:04:20] kind of have to hand wave away, I thought it was really thrilling, surprising, very satisfying, emotional, some definite bittersweet moments, but I thought we're all fitting. So yeah, aside from just heavily suspending credibility on a lot of things, I am really digging it. Yeah, me too. Madeline, what about you? Yeah, I mean, there's... The episode felt like there was like two halves to it also. Yes.

[00:04:48] It felt like the longest, I'm pretty sure it was all one day, which I can get into later because that was very weird. But yeah, it... I thought it was like really fun and exciting to watch and I immediately was like, I gotta watch it again. So it was just very juicy. Like there was just tons and tons of stuff packed into it. Also, I think... Yeah, that ending. That was an ending. I think some people are gonna be mad. Uh-huh. Not me.

[00:05:17] Yeah, I have thoughts on that. Overall, I really thought this episode, like you Madeline, I felt like I was watching two episodes put together that told a bigger, like a big story and it needed to be this way. But when it faded to black after the first kind of half, I was kind of like, okay, we must be... You know, I hadn't looked at the time. I thought, okay, you know,

[00:05:44] we're getting close to the end of the episode. And then I looked and saw how much time was left and thought, oh. And my heart was in my throat, I think, for the rest of it. We've been talking about how we have felt we were gonna have the up and down moments. They were gonna be the good things and the things that were hard. You know, that we didn't think people were going

[00:06:09] to get through this entire season without sacrifices and losing people who we've grown to care about or have been instrumental in doing things on a big scale. And yeah, I have thoughts on that. And we'll talk about it when we bring up our points, which let's move into that.

[00:06:33] So just Handmaids Captured, where, I mean, we open on all the handmaids marching together, looking fierce to the tune of Taylor Swift's, look what you made me do. And I mean, Taylor Swift has hit so hard since the Handmaid's Tale started. And it was just the right vibe. Honey, I rose up from the dead. I do it all the time. I got a list of names and yours is in red underlined.

[00:06:59] I check it once and I check it twice. Look what you made me do. It's really good. One thing about it though, like I was like, are they, where are they coming from or going? Which group of Handmaids is this? And I guess it's the aftermath of this wedding plan. And I'm surprised that they didn't show any handmaids killing any commanders in their beds. I was totally thinking they were

[00:07:24] going to show that. It's weird. I was hoping for it. Honestly. Yeah, me too. Kind of. I wanted to see it. Blood lust. I feel like the rage that's been brought up inside these women for so long, I wanted to see it. I've thought it would be impactful, but you know, this isn't a horror TV show in a traditional sense. Well, there were stabbings though, like in during the attack later

[00:07:52] that, well, you know, pretty vicious, but, um, yeah, that's true. I would have expected them to show some of that. They did like may Almardini had asked who the handmaid and commander were at the end of the last episode. So I went back and looked to, cause I didn't even remember seeing that. And I'm still not sure, but I think maybe they were just both people we don't know, but meant to be representative of what was happening in a bunch of different houses,

[00:08:15] handmaids sneaking up on commanders. Um, but anyway, uh, Naomi said there were 37 commanders killed and I don't know. We don't even know if all the handmaids were successful or not. I thought there would be more, you know? So I don't know. Well, we're not entirely sure how many commanders there were in Boston anyway. So it could have been all of them, right? Yeah. It could have been most of them.

[00:08:44] Could have been, it seems like, I mean, it seems like a good number, but I'm just saying when they were passing those knives at the wedding, I, it seemed like there were more handmaids, but anyway, uh, it seemed like overall it was a success, right? They didn't dwell on any failures. And, um, then they get in this truck and they're escaping and Moira and June say they plan to stay and fight more. It's always full of surprises because we don't, they withheld a lot. So

[00:09:10] they seem to have this big plan. We don't know for sure what their specific goals are. Then Janine says she wants to stay Charlotte still here, just like Hannah. And I was glad that Hannah got mentioned because she hasn't been late for like the first time in, in a while, however long. And I wonder if we'll see her next week or if they just haven't shown her this season because the actor got too old, you know, to make sense. I don't know. Yeah. But if they're staying, what are they going to do?

[00:09:38] Yeah. I mean, I, that felt like they had some plans that we just didn't know about, but we'll never know because it got derailed. Uh, June sees this in the back of the truck, this row of handmaids that are just being freed for the first time. And they're all looking really troubled. And, um, she says they don't get to decide who you are anymore. Okay, go live your

[00:10:02] lives. And it's just like really cool to see June who used to be like them kind of be this folk hero, you know, and she fully embodies that now and someone that they can look up to and respect. And he knows what to say to them. At least that's how I took it. Um, and anyway, then they get captured

[00:10:25] back doors bust open. They get brought out. The guards are calling guardians are calling for June Osborne because they know she's the leader and they threatened to kill this handmaid if June doesn't step forward. So, uh, yeah, they should probably know what she looks like anyway, but, um, it was a cool moment because, you know, she told them to check her ear tag to confirm it's her and she'd made

[00:10:50] a point to keep that until all the handmaids were freed. And now it ends up actually having a practical purpose. Like maybe it saved this other handmaid's life. I don't know, but, um, I think it was also this reminder of just how the handmaids were not treated as people, but property cattle. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, just in this moment, her having served, yeah. I got a little bit scared that

[00:11:19] there was about to be an I'm Spartacus. I'm Spartacus moment with all the handmaids standing there. I was like, please don't do that. Well, I don't know what that is. I'm June. I'm June Osborne. No, I'm June. We're all June Osborne. Oh, oh, oh, got it. Got it. I'm glad they didn't do it. I'm glad that they did not go down that road, but I kind of expected it to. There were a few times in this episode, I was expecting something that didn't end up happening. And I'm like, I'm so glad they

[00:11:49] didn't go with that trope. It just would have taken me out of the episode. It would have been. Yeah. Yeah. There were moments where the thing actually kind of, I guess the reverse where the thing that you'd think was going to happen, but, but, but you don't expect it because you think something's going to derail it. And then it does happen like the plane exploding at the end, which we'll get to, but here June getting captured, like, well, they're going to get June, but you think someone's going to

[00:12:15] derail it. Nope. She actually gets captured. And it feels like, well, they're at the end of the series. They don't have time for derailing things to go off on tangents anymore. Before their, their plan gets derailed and they get captured. And those bombs do go off who, what was the, what was the purpose of the, of that in like their plan? It was a good visual.

[00:12:44] Yeah. No, I mean, Luke had said there were bombs already set. Yes. And yeah, I mean, in that moment, it just seemed like a way for them to get away because the bombs were in between them and the people chasing them. Yeah. It just, it felt sort of perfunctory. It was just kind of like, okay, well then the bombs go off and then like two minutes later, you can,

[00:13:14] you can probably just still drive through and just go get them, which like theoretically maybe is exactly what happened. I don't know. And a lot of times when something happens that strains credibility in this show, I think it's because the show prioritizes visual beauty over logic sometimes. Like for example, like these bombs maybe. And also when June gets hoisted up

[00:13:41] in the, during the hanging, I'm like, Luke is right there. You should have jumped up. If you're going to jump up there, do it before they do do that part. But they wanted the drama of showing her. Timing is everything because if he had jumped up there, they would have shot him right away. Like they would never. Yeah. It had to be. It's a risk no matter when you do it. It is, but timing is

[00:14:07] everything and the coordination, they must've had a plan going into it. Not a plan that we saw come to fruition, but a plan. I mean, Luke said, go. Yeah. Yeah. He yelled at everybody. Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts about that, but I don't know if we should do that scene until we get there. Yeah. But that I'm done with the beginning part. I want to talk about the, the gallows basically. After they're captured,

[00:14:34] we get to see June is walking out and we see just the one noose. And so that's the first perspective that you get and you think, Oh, Oh wow. But then they give you this like iron to the face of no,

[00:14:57] they're actually a bunch of nooses. And so they're not just going to hang June. They're planning to hang a lot of people. And so I figured they were like, who is it? Like, no, I wasn't. Honestly, I figured that they would just be bringing in everyone. Um, did not know they would put Lydia up there, but kind of suspected they might not be pleased with her after she let the handmaids go.

[00:15:25] But I thought that it was really impactful. And what it did is it brought me back to the Fenway Park piece that we saw in season two, episode one, where they were basically terrifying the handmaids that they were going to hang them. Yep. And it was a little bit of shade and Freud for me to see

[00:15:48] Lydia in a situation like that after it kind of reminded me of, um, and, or if you're watching that, I don't want to say too much more, but sometimes when you're a part of a system like that, you can get ground up in it. Yeah. I think what we've seen with Lydia, this whole season has been trying to push us in a certain direction with her character, trying to get us to understand

[00:16:11] or to accept that she has been having more of a crisis of conscience in little ways, even though before this season, I really wouldn't have bought into it at all because I just didn't with her. I just felt she was part of the problem. There were times, yes, that she stepped in and acted like she wanted to do something that was right, but it, it didn't always work that way. Um,

[00:16:42] she and Lawrence together were always fun because they were always, um, coming up with different plans and she knew how to get through to him in some way, not quite as good as June, but she did know how to get through to him in some ways. It was great to hear her give her little speech when she's standing there where, you know, she's given the opportunity to speak. Dear Lord, forgive me and

[00:17:09] please forgive them. My precious girls have mercy for what they've done because they've been prisoners of wicked, godless men. And I kind of like, okay, so you finally get it. It's taken you a while to get to this place, but okay. Too long. Too long to get to this. I feel like she should have gotten it a season ago. I thought she was already in that place by the end of last season, which is why I've

[00:17:33] been kind of confused about her this season. Yeah. Yeah. In an earlier episode, the season when she thinks Janine is dead and then she finds out she's alive and realizes that she's a handmaid at Commander Bell's and she seems happy about it. All I can think is, wait a minute, where you were at

[00:17:58] the end of last season, it should be in your brain that that is not something that Janine would want. She probably would rather be dead with the other women than to be a handmaid again and have to be in that situation. It was like she was already there and then she just got up and started putting her ass on backwards every morning. Yeah. Also, when she did her little speech, there is a little thing,

[00:18:24] or I think Janine looked proud of her. Yeah. Of the gallows that I thought was sweet. I think Janine is a big reason why Lydia shifted. I think something about Janine got under Lydia's skin and she could never be free of it. And watching her go through all of

[00:18:45] these different things, it just, it got to her. I think it, she ended up feeling a different way about everything. She and June were not friends by any means, but I think for June to turn and see her standing there, there was just this look between the two of them where you,

[00:19:10] you, there was that connection, I think. I mean, June, of course, was not, as I said, her best friend, but. Well, she just did June a big favor, you know, she let all those handmaids go and now she, June knows this is a result. Like you did what I wanted you to do and now you're about to be hanged for it. So you're going to feel some kind of way about that. Yeah. So yeah, for me, the gallows, as I said, it took me way back to Fenway Park and all of that again. And that was

[00:19:39] the scene back then that hit very hard for me because I've actually been to Fenway Park and for baseball games and to see it used in this series was kind of terrifying. Hmm. Um, and then the kind of recreation to me, like it wasn't in Fenway Park, but it just seemed very similar that that intensity for it. So.

[00:20:04] I hadn't thought about that. Seeing a Handmaid's Tale scene that is that level of intensity in a place I've physically been, uh, would be pretty like. It was very rough. I remember, uh, when I first started podcasting, I had to watch the first three seasons, I think back to back in a month, like in a month. And I got through that first episode and it, that was the first break I took.

[00:20:30] I had to take like three or four days to be like, I can't, it's too polarizing. It's too intense. I agree. I liked how they sort of progressively revealed who was involved. And first you see June and then you see, uh, Ava. Yeah. Ava. And then you see Lydia and, and I cheered. Yeah. When she said, especially at the end, how she brought, she just, for they have been prisoner of wicked, godless men. Yes.

[00:21:00] So great. I said, you know, you should, she should have known that sooner and you were like, yeah, like last season. And I'm like, no, like on day one. But still. But you think so. I mean, but we got that flashback on her. Yeah. Where she ended up turning in one of her students' moms for neglect, basically neglecting her child.

[00:21:22] And, um, she, there's something about her, I guess. And there's stuff we know about Lydia that I'm not going to talk about because it's a spoiler. So then, uh, June comes up and says, please may I beg for his forgiveness for all my transgressions. And I was just like, it's kind of funny that Wharton falls for the same thing twice.

[00:21:46] Cause, uh, you know, Lydia starts praying and then says these godless men. And then June, well, now can I do it? And then she's like, dear Lord, free yourselves, everyone. I was just picturing in my mind, like each handmade one by one. Oh, can I pray though? And Wharton being like, okay, but you better watch yourself. You better not do that thing that last one did. No, no, I won't. I won't. I'm just going to pray to God. Get out, run, everybody.

[00:22:12] I think June played him because the way that she asked to be able to do it, because she knows he's like a God. Yeah. He's going to let someone pray before he kills them. No matter what they say, he's going to kill them though. But then she started praying and, um, I think she was actually praying. I think she said, dear Lord, I failed you. I failed my friends and my family. I failed the people of Gilead with my selfish and reckless ways. And she has been reckless and selfless at times. So that's why I think it's real. Yeah.

[00:22:42] Lord, please hear my prayer now. Please protect your humble servants. Let them know their lives are worthy and their hopes and their dreams mean something for their good people who have too long been oppressed by evil. Oh, those who've disgraced your name, rise up, fight for your freedom. Don't let the bastards grind you down. That was so intense. Which goes all the way back to that piece of text that she saw on the wall in that bedroom.

[00:23:11] No, elite day carbonarum or whatever it is. Yeah, the Latin. Yeah. And there's a point where you can see the emotion and she's crying for they are good people. And then the anger June, it's like June face came on and it was time. Like we're going to be angry, full on anger mode. And I was down for it. And then the other handmaid's like, I want to pray now. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:23:36] I was watching this going, okay, well, obviously they're not going to hang all of these characters. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because of the Fenway thing. And June, not June. Like, right. And well, but then. They kind of did. Going into her speech thing. First of all, I watched it and then I like immediately rewatched it too. And I was like, had been watching this scene being like, I don't know. I'm not really like going to emotionally buy into this because obviously that's not really going to happen.

[00:24:05] But by the time she got to the end of the speech and they did hoist her up, I was like, I think I'm crying. Yeah, really. Like for. Like a multitude of reasons, I think that it affected me because I think a big part of what affected me about it is I was like, this is bold to do this to the to your main character. Mm hmm. And I think it wasn't just like the risk of and first of all, like.

[00:24:31] June could die, like by the end of this, and there's a lot of people that are expecting that to be exactly what happens. And so I was like, is this are they actually going to end this character? But I think that. Yeah. And have the finale be the aftermath or something. Maybe. Yeah. People carry on. I was like, this is this is a bold move.

[00:24:53] And I guess part of that part of why it emotionally affected me was because this show is, you know, about so many things that are happening in real life. And I guess like taking it to that level of risk with your main character and like having her like get hoisted up like that just felt like a really, really real visual statement to me. And I think that's part of why it impacted me as much as it did. Mm hmm. And that's why Luke didn't jump up sooner, because the writers knew that it was going to have that impact.

[00:25:23] You know what I mean? And they probably did the right thing there. But yeah, it was pretty. I don't like seeing that, you know, anytime someone's hanging, it's so uncomfortable. Of course, it's just like the most disturbing thing ever. When they lifted her like 20 feet off the ground. I mean, that must have been a wild shooting day. Yeah. Also, when they brought everybody out to the gallows and like I was kind of expecting that they might do another one of those make you think this is going to happen. And that does.

[00:25:53] And I'm sitting here the whole time being like, are they going to bring Rita out here and execute her? I expected it. Why on earth would you not go after the person who baked the cake when you know? Yeah. Unless she had already like disappeared at that point and they couldn't find her. And then she came right back in. Yeah. I mean, I expected Rita was going to be there. They're rebels. They're fighters. Yeah. I expected it.

[00:26:19] And then Luke throws the grenades and there's explosions and stabbing and fighting and shooting. And I really thought Luke was going to die here. That's who I thought was going to die. Especially when they finally got June down and he went over and are you okay? And there's all this fighting going. I think I thought he was going to get shot right there. I thought a headshot's going to happen. Yeah. I expected it. And this is how I feel like, especially this episode and the next one, I feel like I'm going

[00:26:46] to be watching them the same, like holding my breath at different points. For sure. We're at the end. There's nothing left. So we, our hearts could be broken. Yeah. The fact that all of these main characters have survived this long in this season is wild. This is. Yeah. It's not what I expected. Strange credibility, honestly. Yeah. And then Ava's John wicking it, which is pretty cool.

[00:27:14] And then these planes fly over. It's like, wow, this is really intense and bombing some buildings. And I love that they kept all of this from us because it makes it more exciting. And I was like, is this an all out assault on Gilead or like meant to end them? And all said and done, I think they're just trying to gain some ground like they did in Chicago and now they, they occupy part of Boston or something. Right. Yeah.

[00:27:39] It's about little victories because they don't have this huge army anymore. And so they have to rely on strategic attacks and, you know, look at the potential for victory in these small ways because they've lost so much already. They don't have a lot left that they can lose without completely disappearing.

[00:28:04] And so they have to have a good plan and have a good rate of potential success, I think, to even move forward with anything. This had to be part of their backup plan from the beginning of plan A, right? I guess so. Yeah. You would think so. They'd have to have contingencies in place for something like this happening. There's only like a hundred different ways that their plan A could go wrong. Yeah.

[00:28:32] Like, so how do you pick, okay, contingency for these three or four things and hope that none of the rest of it goes wrong? Because if it does. Well, they don't even know. Like when they're handing out knives to, so they, they just gave this whole secret plan to like all of the handmaids by default, right? Yeah. What if there were some of the handmaids that were like not down with the revolution? I feel like that easily could have happened.

[00:29:00] Well, Aunt Phoebe was there. She said they're all on board. Yeah. So she figured it out beforehand. Yeah. Things were in progress. But again, I'm with you, Madeline. I don't know. I mean, how do you, that's, that's putting a lot of faith in people that you don't know. Like, it's not like your take, you've got 50 Moira's there that you know you can trust. There could be a pious little shit in there.

[00:29:31] Yeah. I mean, it's a risk. It's all risky. They're, they're underdogs and they, um, they're putting their life on the line. They know it, you know? Yeah. Maybe there's a more airtight plan or something. I don't know. I don't know how to do it. I don't know. Maybe I'm going to have to learn. We'll see. Talk to me in five or 10 years. Oh gosh. The best piece of financial advice I've ever received is to pay yourself first. That's why now with every paycheck I receive, I start by putting a little bit away for those

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[00:30:59] Can we start off with her? Does she run out of the house and then go to Lawrence's and then they bring her husband back in? Yes. Okay. First, she's running outside and sees that. The stabbing. The man made to stab a wife. Yeah. Look what you made me do. There's that Taylor Swift song is still playing.

[00:31:25] And I think, I don't know if that's supposed to indicate that Serena's having some self-awareness that she kind of caused this or not. But I think at the least she's having some understanding that maybe I understand why a handmaid would do this. Yeah. Also, that reminded me of the scene in The Walking Dead where Carol looks out the window and it's the middle of the afternoon and someone just runs up and just starts stabbing somebody. Oh, the wolves. Oh, the wolves. Yeah.

[00:31:52] So, because that is, I think a stabbing is a kind of violence that is like personal and weird where it can come without a lot of noise, which in some ways makes it scarier. So, she's just looking and then sees this interaction that I feel like you would see that and not even think it was real. But then when she ends up at the Lawrences, I guess is what it would be, and they bring

[00:32:22] in her husband and he starts talking to her. Like, we already know that he's shitty, he's scary, et cetera, et cetera. But when he started talking to her, I was like, damn, this actor really is really, really good at this because I almost find myself being like, you know what? I don't know. He's got some good points here. Like, maybe we should. Maybe we should listen to him. I was like, wow, how is this working?

[00:32:51] This is even scarier than when he's being scary. He didn't have, unless I'm forgetting something he said, I don't think he necessarily had any good points, but he was capitulating to her, right? He was saying, okay, we'll get rid of the handmaid. You and I can try to have a baby together. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Love bombing. Essentially just saying his demeanor was so surprisingly convincing and somehow he made himself not just seem like agreeable, but soft. Yes.

[00:33:20] And that's why, like, I think it's a very good practice in life to understand that communication happens on an emotional level and on a cognitive, logical, cerebral level, because otherwise you can easily get caught up in the vibe of somebody who's not, who's not good, you know? And we all do it to one extreme or another.

[00:33:47] Even if you are aware of this, it's hard not to get caught up in that, you know? Like, you can get caught up. Like, if you don't quite jibe with somebody, then you might not give them enough credit. Or the other way that happens probably more often, if someone's really charming, then you'll get in a bad situation because you don't see that they're not actually good for you. That's what cult leaders do, but also just on a different level, just bad relationships and salesmen and all kinds of stuff. Politicians.

[00:34:16] I don't think it's outside the realm of understanding of how he got to be where he is. Yeah. Because I think he is incredibly thoughtful about everything that he's saying and being or becoming this master manipulator. He knows how to schmooze. He knows how to get what he wants. But also, he believes that he's a good person.

[00:34:44] And when you believe something about yourself, then you are way more likely to give off that vibe. So he has this twisted idea of what it means to be a good person. But undergirding that is just like, I'm a good, pious, holy man who cares about people. And so that's what he vibes. And if you're not paying close attention to exactly how that manifests, you could really fall for it. Yeah.

[00:35:10] I kind of wish that this guy had been introduced earlier in this show because I would have found a lot of this stuff about this like secret cabal of commanders to be much more believable if it had had someone this sinister and intelligent involved in it, as opposed to feeling like this weird little penguin mafia where it's like, I'm in charge. No, it's me. No, it's me. But one person that we have had this whole time is Nick. And it's the same thing with Nick.

[00:35:37] I mean, I think even now the way this episode played out or Nick. Okay. You're with the winners now, right? Lawrence. He's made his choice. I think there's still going to be people who are arguing why Nick is great because they like his vibe. And I'm like, look at his actions. I am looking forward to the comments that come through for this episode. Yeah.

[00:36:04] Because when we talk about that part of the episode, which to me was the most polarizing the last 10 minutes, yeah, I'm really interested in what people have to say about Nick's decisions that he made at the end. Yeah. So, but I agree.

[00:36:27] I wish that Commander Wharton had been introduced back when we met Rose, really, truly. Yeah. He's like, he's legitimately scary. He's a great character. Like, it's like the earlier seasons felt scary like that. Yeah. He's more like a real person, really. Yeah. Because there's so many people who do feel righteous and don't come off like villains, but if you pay attention to what they're actually doing, it's like, no, you're hurting people.

[00:36:57] And I think that it would have potentially made him seem not as villainous at first. They might have been able to make this more of a flip or made us not expect it so much because when we met him, I absolutely thought he was bad right from the beginning. I don't remember what I thought. And I know a lot of people felt like that too. Yeah.

[00:37:21] And I'm wondering if they had more time to ease him in if we might not have been as sure of that. But the thing is, you know, we all know what Gilead is. And one of the listeners pointed out, and we're not going to have feedback this week because I just didn't have time and Wendy's out. She usually does it.

[00:37:46] But we're going to just do all the feedback in an episode for the last three episodes in another episode after the finale airs. So we're going to just do a big old feedback episode. But anyway, someone in the feedback said something like, you know, Warden comes from D.C. And he's a high commander. And D.C. is where the handmaids have their mouths stapled shut. So, I mean, that right there is enough to know. I don't care how you act. You're a bad person.

[00:38:17] But they could have done with him what some people thought they were doing with Lawrence, where it's like he seems like kind of chill and cool. And then it turns out that he's like very, very bad. Like that would have been really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think we should. I think it would have been cool to have more time with him just to let kind of a slow burn into villainous. Also, that actor is just killing it. I'm sorry. I don't know what his name is, but. Josh Charles. Josh Charles. I'm impressed.

[00:38:47] I'm excited, honestly, for when awards nominations come out because I just, I'm not sure how you overlook anyone. There's so many great performances in this series, this season, and I don't know how you leave anyone off about it. Give an award just to Ann Dowd for saying mop. Mop. Like. That's it. I want her to come to my birthday party and just say mop.

[00:39:16] Like how much is that appearance fee? Yeah. One little thing. So Naomi called. It's like, yeah, I called Wharton over here. And I'm like, what? Fuck you, man. And I sort of wondered if like, because we were kind of waiting to see, oh, it seems like Naomi's going to play a part in this somehow. She's going to do something. And maybe this was it. Right. We'll see. She's going to sleep. She's going to sleep like a dead person. Yes. You know what? I think Naomi did have a part to play.

[00:39:43] I think we saw it and we'll, and we'll talk about it. I have something to say about it. Cool. Um, but not in this piece of it. I was a little annoyed that Naomi called Wharton in over it. I mean, because it's not her business to be fixing someone's marriage. And then Lawrence has to like, not drag her, but be like, Naomi, Naomi. Because I felt like she wanted to stay there and be like a mediator between the two of them at that point.

[00:40:13] And Naomi, you can redecorate the basement now. And she, um, our men need to protect us now. And I'm just like. Right. That's the thing with these wives. And they are in a position of, um, I guess where they're taken care of. Like they, they have servants and everything.

[00:40:35] And so, and they, if they, if you're in a place where you feel okay with Gilead, then, um, and you're pious and all that, then you just have such a narrow idea of what is okay in life. And if people don't fit into that, then you either want to excommunicate them, you know, or consider them less than, or just nudge them back into it.

[00:41:05] That's why she's with Serena being like, you should feel lucky that you married a good man. And I brought him here and you need to just get back into the way that things are supposed to be. You know, it's like, everything has to fit into this narrow idea. Well, cause otherwise it challenges your current, like your decisions you've made. Yeah. Also, I don't know if it was this podcast or a different one, but somebody, or maybe, maybe even Ever Carradine, but somebody characterized this relationship as like two high school girls that are super competitive with each other.

[00:41:33] And I just think that's very accurate. Absolutely. I have to agree. I liked even their conversation when they're coming down the stairs and Serena is trying to like talk in defense of the handmaids and why they did what they did. And Naomi is just, we never should have let them in our house, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Yeah. At that point, you realize that maybe what some of what Serena has been saying is actually how she really feels now.

[00:42:02] Like she's starting to really understand what her actions have done. And even with June, like when Wharton says, you don't have to worry about her anymore. God's justice will be served. I promise. And she looked troubled, but I didn't know if she was just sort of in a fog and confused about it. But then later when she talked to Lawrence, she's like, I wouldn't be here. Noah would be here if not for her.

[00:42:30] So she's exhibiting some, I don't know if you could call that completely selfless because it's still about her still being there because of June, but it's at least as close as she comes. You know, and she's sympathetic to the handmaids and all this. I felt like her conversation with Lawrence was she wanted something to happen to save June. Like she didn't want June to die. And I didn't do anything about it, though.

[00:42:59] No, but I don't know what could she have done? Walked out there with a torch or a bow and arrow and shot Wharton in the head? No, this isn't the Hunger Games. Well, apparently everyone on the other team is suddenly a crack shot. So like, why not? Serena? I mean, well, you know what? Maybe. I mean, Lawrence would be more in a position to try to do something about it.

[00:43:24] But even him, he's so persona non grata right now that who knows if he could have done anything. Yeah. Lawrence. Well, he did something later. He really did. He really did. I also want to mention, when we were talking about the gallows, there was this violin score during that whole part that I thought was incredibly impactful.

[00:43:53] Um, it was subtle, just kind of barely there. But it, it was another part of that scene that just kind of pulled everything together. And that's something that this show does really well, is they pay attention to the little details. Mm-hmm. And Elizabeth Moss directed this episode. Yeah, I did see that. Nice. And she is also directing next week's.

[00:44:17] Uh, so another thing on the gallows one is, uh, not only did Rita survive, but she could shoot a gun, operate a crane, and I think also stab someone to death. That was amazing. And, like, the crazy thing to me is then they're back, they're back in their, like, HQ or whatever. June's walking around, is talking to Rita. She's like, yeah, I didn't get hanged, so, like, yeah, I'm feeling pretty chill.

[00:44:45] And it's, like, that's when I realized, I'm like, this is the same fucking day. So, first of all, uh, Rita, Luke, and who knows how many other people, they just killed a bunch of people. Yeah. Like, I'm pretty sure this is something that these people have definitely never done before and would be, like, or even if they have. I mean, it's, like, and then it's just, okay, back to, like, we'll just meet back at the office at 2.

[00:45:15] Like, that's insane. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. It very much is, like, like, Lauren says I'm not James Bond, but Rita is James Bond. Yes. And it very much feels like the thing I kind of hoped this show would not turn into at the beginning. It's exactly what it is right now. It's an action movie, like, heroes winning and everything.

[00:45:38] But, I mean, I've said this many times lately that I'm okay with it now because of what's happening in our country. I want to feel some, like, you know, catharsis and hope and all that. I mean, we want to see heroes. I think we all want to see heroes. But I also, at the same time, I'm like, that would be very emotionally impactful on a person. So just have them just be like, oh, yeah, I'm just, you know, back here at the...

[00:46:04] And also, June, like, didn't get hanged to death, but she still got hanged. Like, honestly, after she got let back down when she is laying on the ground and Luke is talking to her, I was like, she could still die. Mm-hmm. Like, you could damage your esophagus. Like, I don't know. She could still die right now. Did she have her hands in there the whole time? Yeah. I think she did. I think she might have. It's still, like... Yeah. Later, she said she had a sore throat. Like, really?

[00:46:34] They did address it. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you're not gonna keep June down. She's tough. Or up. Or up, I guess. Or up. They wanted her to be, you know, resting, and no. That's just kind of ridiculous that it's the same fucking day. If you think that June Osborne is going to rest, you don't know June Osborne. You haven't been paying attention, because she's not gonna rest.

[00:47:04] She wants to be in it for the long haul, for whatever's coming. She wants to be a part of it. I'm kind of glad she was. I'm kind of glad she was for what happened. I hear what you're saying, though. You want him to feel like real human beings, where these things have an impact, and it became an action movie. Mm-hmm. A bit. It did. For whatever reason, like, it's just the crane thing.

[00:47:31] I'm like, I feel like even if you have, like, some experience with various kinds of machinery or driving different kinds of vehicles, just being able to hop in there and be like, I know exactly what button to press right now. It's very surprising. All the Marthas are trained in crane operation. I don't know if you knew that. Yeah. I mean, there could be a Martha that worked at Home Depot. You know? You think that's what Rita did? No, Rita was an attorney, right? Right. Yeah, I think so.

[00:48:00] I wonder why someone didn't just shoot the rope that was holding June up. I think that would have been more ridiculous, though. That would have been very action movie, yeah. That's probably really hard to do. True. Unless you're John Dory. I mean, they didn't really have to pull her up that high. I mean, they could have pulled her up part way, and then people, you know, ran and stood under her trying to take the pressure off her neck. Yeah.

[00:48:27] That might have been a little more realistic, or not. I don't know. I mean, that shot was so iconic, though. Yeah. It was. They wanted everyone to see. Oh, fuck. I just realized that's the same thing that they did. That might be also part of the reason that emotionally impacted me as much as it did, because that's the same way that they hanged... What's-her-name's lover that was a Martha in that horrifying scene. Oh, Emily's! Yes! Yes!

[00:48:56] ...where they string her up and the truck is driving away. Fuck. Yeah. There's so much post-watching stress that comes from this that you don't even realize. Yeah. Until later. I don't know why I didn't think of that until right now. Then during the attack, you know, Serena's at Lawrence's by herself with the baby Noah hearing the explosions in the distance. And then Mark busts in with his military attache. Oh!

[00:49:26] And I totally was thinking of Wendy there. Absolutely! Because I'm like, Serena's having some feelings here. Is Wendy a Tuelloist? She is a Tuelloist. Yes. I became a Tuelloist right then. I was like, this is very... Where are you taking us? But I feel like she was like, because I really want to go. He's like someplace safe. I was like, this seems very unlikely, but I'm so fucking into it right now. But I do sort of wonder, okay, what were you doing?

[00:49:55] Because we know they wanted Lawrence to help find the other commanders and kill them. But if you want Lawrence to still be undercover, it's probably not a good idea to come to his house like that with your whole guard with you. Well, whatever. I question where Lawrence actually was. I mean, I know the commanders were meeting to talk about what they were going to do, but I can't imagine Wharton not being at that meeting.

[00:50:22] So during the execution part, where was Lawrence? Like, where was he actually? Was he... You didn't see him over there in the corner? No. I didn't see him. I don't know. But I mean, I think, I don't know if the point was to have Mark pick up Serena, even though he wasn't there for her, you know? So Lawrence had to be somewhere else, I guess. I guess. Where would any of the commanders have been during the hanging, though? Because that actually does seem like something they would watch.

[00:50:52] Cowering in a bunker, Madeline. That's where they were. They're probably like watching from somewhere, though. Yeah. I think they were in a bunker. Hiding. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they did reference Chicago and that whole thing with the poisoning that happened there. So they were probably really concerned. But again, I thought that the commanders would be present at this thing, that it wouldn't just be Wharton. But I didn't see any of them, really.

[00:51:19] I bet they're like behind a storefront of bulletproof glass or something. Probably, yeah. Hiding. See, when he said they don't want another Chicago, I thought it just meant because Chicago has been encroached upon, you know, and so they don't occupy or control it anymore. They have to fight over the territory. But I could be wrong. This is kind of a dumb question. Where are they right now? Boston, right? Okay. Yeah.

[00:51:46] Well, no, because I thought Serena, I thought Wharton tried to get Serena to go to Boston and she said, I'm not going farther into Gilead. Maybe I misheard that. No, they were going to leave Boston. Oh, okay. She wanted to go to New Bethlehem originally. That's what she had told Lawrence, but it wasn't safe. It wasn't safe, yeah. And Lawrence is just kind of calm throughout the whole thing. He's like, rebellion, no, you know, whatever.

[00:52:15] But yeah, she didn't want to go further into Gilead. I don't blame her. Why would you want to go further into Gilead? For sure. I mean, that would be. I feel like that would be sentencing herself. Yeah. I mean, she's married to a man who's questionable. And she knows it. She knows what he tried to pull on her just on their wedding night.

[00:52:40] So can we talk about what happened when she was in protective custody at the church between Serena and June? Absolutely. I had a feeling that June would be able to get through to her. But you also could see that Serena was conflicted because, yes, he was her husband. Was that out of loyalty or fear? Or neither?

[00:53:04] I think that, honestly, Serena, I mean, June was right to tell her the version of Gilead that you want is not going to be able to exist with these commanders. Like, they're not going to allow it to happen. And I think Serena has evolved to the point that she knew that June was right, even if she didn't want to admit it to herself. And it was a big deal for her to go ahead and basically sentence her husband to death. To death. And I don't know if you'd say that's loyalty.

[00:53:34] I don't think it was fear. I mean, with Serena, the whole episode, it's about wondering if she's changed enough to fully reject and work against Gilead. And so when you get to this moment with her and June, I mean, they immediately start bickering, which I thought was funny. At first, Serena is like happy. June's alive. Oh, my God. And she's like, oh, you're actually happy? You know, they're both sort of wondering about each other a lot where they stand.

[00:54:01] And they actually kind of care about each other at this point, I think. But then Serena immediately just starts like judging her, which I mean, it's sort of reasonable, I guess. June just led a mass murder, you know, of 37 commanders. They deserved it, absolutely. But it's a pretty, it's a thing. Also using Serena's wedding. Yeah, using her wedding.

[00:54:29] And she said, you know, that wasn't for you to decide to kill them. So she morally judged June. And then June came back like, well, you decided to hurt people. I didn't decide that. But you know what? We don't have time for this. But anyway, the reason why I'm bringing that up is because I think that's Serena's mindset. Like, it's a big deal for her to do something that she knows is going to lead to killing these commanders, one of whom is her husband.

[00:54:57] Whether I mean, she's very conflicted about her husband and about Gilead, which is why she ended up making the choice to go ahead and do that. But it was not an easy choice to make. Yeah, I mean, you know what? Gabriel Wharton talked a good talk when he was telling her all the things that he felt she wanted to hear. But I think at that point, she was kind of in this, okay, self-preservation mode. And, okay, well, let's see what happens next, you know?

[00:55:27] She didn't have a lot of options at that point. But later, with June, I feel like June gets through to people by saying the right thing at the right time. And in some ways, maybe it's a little manipulative because she said things that she knew would prick at Serena and prick at these ideals that she claimed she has.

[00:55:55] And give Serena the opportunity to, okay, you believe these things. You want to make things better. This is an opportunity for you to do that and move forward with your ideas and plans for how to make things better. What are you going to do? And June kind of walks away, like, twice, where she's just ready to turn around and leave.

[00:56:22] And it doesn't end until Serena basically says 7 p.m. New Bedford. I feel like that was 100% a bluff on June's part. And I wonder what she would have done if Serena didn't call her back. If Serena hadn't stopped her. Yeah, she gets to the door and she's like, and another thing. Yeah. She was definitely not giving up on that. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think it was manipulative necessarily.

[00:56:47] I mean, she is trying to get Serena to do something, but she's not deceiving her. No. Everything she's saying, she believes and she knows it's what could influence Serena. Right. But it's also the truth. Like our kids, your child, if we don't take care of these problems, they're going to grow up in a world where they're suffering, you know? So we'd been wondering if she would face a choice like this. And here it is.

[00:57:16] And she made the right choice. And she knows it's likely to be a death sentence for Wharton and the other commanders. And I think that's notable. And when I saw that, I was like, oh, cool. This is a great episode for Madeline to be on so we can get her take about that. What did you think about that, Madeline?

[00:57:39] I mean, I think whether that was a decision that was because Serena 100% would have made that decision or if it's because the plot needed her to. This may be a question in my head, but I mean, I think it's the right thing to do. And it's believable that she did. And I think the question just is like, it's really just with things like that.

[00:58:06] I think like I said in the last feedback I did is that it's not just about like one monumental moment of doing this or that. It's like, do you continue to make more decisions in this direction than that one over time? Which it does seem like she's doing. At this point, after making if what we saw was as straightforward as it seemed where June convinced her, you know what? You're right.

[00:58:34] And we've already seen that she doesn't want the handmaids in her house, that she cares about the handmaids now, that she decided to go ahead and set in motion killing of these commanders because she thinks June has a point that it's not good. And, you know, that they're not good for anybody. And Serena said they're just going to keep raising more men up. And June's like, well, then we'll just keep fighting.

[00:59:03] And so then that was enough for Serena. So what I'm trying to get at is I don't see after all that, if Serena has the opportunity to just go back into Gilead proper with new commanders in the places of the ones who've been killed, that she would do that. I don't think she would. I don't think she's going. That's a new Bethlehem. That's a non-starter anymore, I don't think. So I think she's either going to die or she's going to move to another country by the end of this. Treason and coconuts?

[00:59:33] Maybe so. She's going to take her secret Toello baby and go to Hawaii. It's been Toello's the whole time. That's what The Testaments is actually about. Yeah. It's Hawaiian vacation. Yeah. She also freed her at least, well, she attempted to, like, release the handmaid that Wharton tried to put in her home as well. Yeah. Yeah. Run! Yeah.

[01:00:03] I mean, she was horrified. The look on her face. Yeah. I mean, we were expecting it, I think. You know, we thought he was going to be bad. But Serena had, I mean, I don't think she was in love with him, but I think, you know, she saw this was going to be this opportunity for her. I don't think having a handmaid in her house. Yeah.

[01:00:51] And that was a huge shock. Yeah. Little dance in the street, you know. Mm-hmm. Their third date was a proposal. Yeah. I don't know about that as a courtship strategy. Maybe that's what it is in Gilead, is like, you... I don't know. You mean three times.

[01:01:15] I will say, if anyone's courtship strategy involves talking about, like, purity and having lots of children, that's just, like, huge red flag. Yes. Not into that. Yeah. Put that on your Tinder. Yeah. So what about June and Wharton scene? What really stood out to me is this big, like, industrial... Well, not even industrial. This, like, cage that she was in looked like she was the Joker or something.

[01:01:43] It did remind me of Harley Quinn in one of the Suicide Squad movies. I thought the... Not aesthetic... Well, first of all, aesthetically, I was like, okay, cool. So Gilead just has these rooms. Where it's a prison cell, but... There must be a really inefficient way to run a jail. Every prison cell needs, like, a whole ballroom around it so that the person talking to you can sit, like, 25 feet away. And, uh...

[01:02:11] I want to hear Wharton with his assistant. Can you bring in one of those cells we have? Those portable, sturdy... Bird cages. But anyway, it was a great scene, I thought. I thought it was really interesting that he opened the cell and gave her a chair to sit down face-to-face with him. Almost like this man-to-man approach. And... Mm-hmm. I was kind of surprised by that because if he's... I mean, this is the June Osborne. That no one recognizes. Yeah, that no one recognizes. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:42] She's like the most famous person. She's like the Britney Spears of Gilead, but no one knows who's her face. Exactly. And... Do you really want her sitting across from you when she could probably bite your throat out? A la Rick Grimes. She probably has, like, 19 knives up each sleeve. They should have weighed her before. I'm sure she's been searched. But, um, I think that was, yeah, it was kind of the point just to give the scene an extra level of tension. Oh, it definitely did.

[01:03:11] Uh, that scene felt very Joan of Arc to me. Of, like, I feel like there was... Or at least some representation of it that I remember watching a long, long time ago. Where it's, like, before she gets put on trial, she gets sort of, like, interrogated or talked to by a priest or something like that. And she gives her whole, like, this is my... Uh, here's what I believe. Et cetera, et cetera.

[01:03:34] In a very, like, uh, religious and sort of, like, uh, I don't know, destiny vibe. I mean, to me, what I loved about it is that it's another instance that we've got, like, we've gotten lately on this show of just directly speaking truth to power.

[01:03:58] Where, like Wharton's saying, Serena worked hard to improve conditions for handmaids if only even more patient. And she goes, yeah, that's the thing about state-sanctioned rate. Patience is not an option. It's just really good to hear, just like the way I feel when Trump asks... I mean, a reporter asked Trump a straightforward question about why are you taking this $400 million plane? Are they going to want favors from you? Stuff like that, right?

[01:04:22] And then when, um, she said, you know, all the beautiful, innocent women that you had killed who were trapped at Jezebel's, uh, and their blood is on your hands. And then Wharton says, God will be your judge. And then she tried an appeal, like, please, my God is Serena's God. He's a God of love. And he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God. Choose love. Be the man that she believes you can be, meaning Serena.

[01:04:50] And I like what she's saying, but she just led a mass execution. And it just seems a little strange to go from that to trying to preach to this guy to choose love, even though I agree, like they deserved it for sure. But of course, I'm like, well, if there was any chance he was going to fall for this anyway, which there probably is absolutely no chance.

[01:05:12] He's definitely not going to fall for it when he's got this person here who he sees as this terrorist that just killed 37 of his people. So it almost seemed kind of silly to me where it was supposed to be like moving or something. I see, I look at it from a path of good and evil and who deserves it and who doesn't. So I look at it like, yes, she did lead that mass execution.

[01:05:39] But it was more, I think, justice versus what he did to those women was murder. I agree. Absolutely. And that's how I reconciled it in my head. And I also feel like during that conversation that she had with him, she was really trying to figure him out a little bit. I think the things that she said and talking to about, you know, it's a horror show run by men who are twisting his words. It's never been about piety.

[01:06:08] It's always been about power. I think she was not baiting him, but I think she was really trying to get into or understand who he is so that she could figure out how to fight against it in some way. I mean, I think June is her mother's daughter. I think we have seen that before this season, but we're really seeing it this season.

[01:06:33] I think I said in a prior episode, I feel like she is exactly who her mother wanted her to be with regard to fighting back and being an activist and, you know, standing up for the rights of others and saving people. And I think in this instance, she was really just trying to figure out who he is and how to get to him, like what she can say that will get to him.

[01:07:00] So she tried a few different things, which she, I think, gathered that he is very pious. And that's why she asked him if she could have a moment to, you know, repent or for her sins, because she knew probably he would let her have that. I feel the same.

[01:07:24] Like when I'm thinking about how to handle what's going on in the country, in the world right now. And one of my big issues is climate change. And I'm like, okay, if they're on the other side of the political aisle, they don't believe in climate change. And I'm like, do you, I mean, do you think that God is just going to save us from all of this? Like, what if it's that we're harming the planet?

[01:07:53] We're harming God's planet. And God wants us to take care of his planet. What if that's what's going on? You know, I try to like appeal to that. It never works. But I think in the same way, I think that June was trying to think here. Like you always think, what if I had an actual chance to talk to somebody at the top? What would I say? How do you get through to them? Like, what do you have to say? How do you, it's not just what you have to say. How do you have to say it to get through to them? Yeah.

[01:08:19] Part of it, it also is very much an awareness that she's most likely not going to be able to get out of this. And it's like, you know what? Fuck it. I want to know what these people really think. Like really, really. Because has she had been face to face with this guy before? No. No. And it's also, and again, I think this is also why it reminded me of Jonah Bark is it's being like, you have this idea of what you think God is and you're like perverting the idea of God. And you don't own that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:47] There was a point during her speech at the gallows when she's crying that I think she really thought she was going to die. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And that was Elizabeth Moss at her best to me. Like she, it was incredibly believable. And if you look at it from, she's been playing this character since season one and where she's at.

[01:09:16] You have to imagine the connection that she and the other actors on this show have to the characters they're playing and knowing that they're, the days are counting down and this is it. So. Mm-hmm. Yep. It's always easy to, easier to conjure up that kind of emotion at the end of a series when people are actually saying goodbye to each other. You mentioned that June said, Gilead, you know, Wharton says, Gilead is God's kingdom here on earth.

[01:09:45] And June says, it's a horror show run by men who twist his words, frauds all of you. It's never been about piety. It's always been about power. That's another instance of just speaking truth to power. Mm-hmm. And it's pretty much exactly the same thing we were saying last week in the Mayday segment all about Trump and how they use religion to justify doing different things when Trump's like the furthest thing from religious. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:15] Yeah. I mean, I could say June is more as religiously motivated as some of the people in Gilead that are the most, like, not thinking of the word right now, but consider it to be, like, the most important thing to them. Yeah. Like, she actually, like, had her daughter baptized in a church, like, pre-Gilead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:41] What you said a few minutes ago, like, you don't own what it means to be religious is important. Yeah. We were just talking about emotion and characters and how, since it's getting close to the end, it's definitely, I think, bringing more emotion out in the characters, in the performances. Mm-hmm.

[01:11:32] It might have been because of the way that she played it. That's the most emotionally resonant I've seen Naomi be, I think. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's been a long time since I watched the earlier seasons. There might be something else. The way that she reacted when Lawrence gave her the book. Yeah. And said she likes, you know, this is, she likes this at bedtime. Knowing that the women don't really read, right? That's not something that they're supposed to do. Yeah.

[01:12:01] So, I took that scene, like, even deeper, I think, because he's encouraging her to read to their daughter. Yes. It seemed too casual to me that Naomi relented, given that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Because she seems so into the Gilead tea. Yeah. Like, she's so into it. That bridal shower, oh my God. That was the bridal shower from hell. I don't know that she's that loyal to anything in particular, though.

[01:12:30] Like, she does kind of feel like the, like, whatever will make me popular girl. Because she couldn't even give the prayer, the blessing at dinner or whatever. Yeah. That, to me, was one of the funniest scenes this show has ever. I mean, because there's not very many funny scenes anyway. But that whole mess of a blessing was, yeah. It was definitely one of the funniest things I've seen on this show.

[01:12:56] From some of the interviews that I've listened to with actors from this show, there is a lot of silliness that goes on behind the scenes in between being in these very not very silly characters. And Ever herself also seems to be very much of a, like, silly kind of person outside of that context. You would never guess that. You would never guess that based on the way that Naomi is.

[01:13:25] And she said that she thinks of Naomi as being very stiff. And I forgot what the word, there's a word that she used several times describing her. She's really rigid. Rigid. Yeah, it is. I think it was the word rigid. Yeah. And then she, I felt like this scene, both of her receiving the book and of her walking away with Angela is the softest I've seen her. Absolutely. Just a little bit, but it was very noticeable. Yeah, they were different.

[01:13:55] And I thought, Lawrence sitting there saying, look, our kid wants to learn. She really wants to. We're her parents. We need to teach her. And that felt like, even though Lawrence didn't know it, it was him leaving one last thing for his quote unquote daughter. You know, who knows where she'll end up by the end of this. Hopefully back when you need. But anyway, he really cares about the kid, which is so adorable and awesome.

[01:14:23] But yeah, just trying to leave her with something. It's been so endearing to watch. Yeah. Bradley Whitford play Lawrence. Lawrence and the season that Lawrence has had with Angela, it's been lovely. Like, it's been a bright spot in so much doom and gloom and dreariness. It just, you know, brought an element of realism and heart, I think, with everything all around them.

[01:14:52] So terrifying and chaotic. So I kind of took that to be the goodbye. And that was when I wrote down for the first time. Oh, my God. I think it's going to happen. Yeah, I've been thinking that he was going to sacrifice himself for a while.

[01:15:13] But especially by the time that scene came around, it just felt like he's, I mean, he's gone full fuck it mode, first of all, since the people times of which I don't think he really needed a people to know that. But no, no, no, no, no, no. He had nothing to lose at that point. He's like, OK, they want me, dad. They want me on the wall. All right. They is confirmation. At the same time, though, he's. Well, I don't know if we can go to the plane or not.

[01:15:43] So not yet. But I feel like we have to soon. I mean, we've talked about so many things. I feel like we're once we get on the plane, we can't get back off the plane. We can't. And that's been the thing that has been. I feel like. OK, let's go to Nick and. Perfect. That's what I was going to say with his wife in the hospital. Rose. Rose is her father's daughter.

[01:16:09] I was indifferent about Rose most of the time in this episode. I really. Felt like, OK, was the Senate. Is that real? What you're saying to him? Is that real? Or are you just. Trying to. I don't know. When she woke Nick up at their place, you know, it was after the wedding, but before anyone knew anything about anything that was going on. And so I presume that she was being honest, that something was wrong.

[01:16:37] And then later at the hospital totally seemed like, yeah, she found out that what happened and she was OK because they got to the hospital. But she's just really the whole point of this. I don't think is anything about Rose's duplicity. It's about let's see where Nick's allegiances really lie. And Rose is finally calling him out on it.

[01:16:57] And Rose, Rose, we kind of thought maybe she was progressive at first because why would Nick, you know, who we thought of as a hero and maybe some still do choose someone who's a typical Gilead person. But she is a typical Gilead person because here she's asking him, who are you loyal to? Show me you're loyal to God and Gilead and your family. And me and your child. And I mean, I think the whole point of Nick's story is sort of like how we didn't want to see it.

[01:17:25] Even I didn't necessarily see it, but that Nick is a Gilead man and he's chosen. And so I think the point of this is Rose Rose is like, hey, this thing that June did, it almost killed our baby. You need to pick a side now firmly on it. Yeah. And and he did. He really did pick the side. And I think, you know, when he's in that plane saying, OK, you're with the winners now.

[01:17:51] I think there's no other way to read that than Nick has made his choice. Yeah. I thought when he was standing outside the plane, he was deciding. I think he was still maybe contemplating. Yeah. OK. Just like Lawrence. Yeah. They both had to make a choice. Well, Lawrence was making a different decision. Yeah. But still, they're making a choice. They're both making a really consequential choice. It's not exactly the same.

[01:18:18] But because I was like, because you see Lawrence get on the plane and for him, it's very clear. Do I get on this plane and sacrifice myself to kill all these fuckers? Yes. But Nick made the same pause. And I wasn't quite clear on what that was supposed to mean until we're having this conversation now. And maybe it is more like, am I actually going to be loyal to Gilead or not? I don't know that it's him making a final, this is how I'm going to do the rest of my life.

[01:18:45] Because he doesn't know that the next 10 minutes is going to be the rest of his life at that time. Yeah. And just like I was saying earlier about Serena, there can be a process of you keep making decisions that go this way or you keep making decisions that go that way. And I think Nick has done a lot of like, yeah, I'm doing this little thing over here in this context, but I'm going to do this thing over here in this context.

[01:19:07] So I honestly don't know if it makes sense for him as a person to have been like, I'm making this final decision about what I'm going to be about for the rest of my life. I think it's that, well, because it's a TV show, we need to make it feel like that's what it is because he's about to die. Yeah, but it's like Rose is saying to him, you need to choose.

[01:19:31] And so I think that it is a point, it's not quite as definitive as Lawrence who knows that he's choosing to die. But for Nick, I think it is sort of supposed to symbolize, okay, no more thinking about June. I'm just going to commit to all my, to Gilead and my wife and my family. Although then again, once he gets on the plane, he asks, is she okay?

[01:19:59] Well, people do that kind of thing all the time. People say like, I'm never going to cheat again, blah, blah, blah. And then sometimes even really think that they're going to do it right this time. And then they still turn around and fuck it up. Not that that's the best comparison, but like, yeah, it's kind of is, I would say with him. It's a pretty good comparison. What we've seen more from Nick in the last couple of episodes has been him choosing more the Gilead side of things versus the June side.

[01:20:27] Like he did do things in the first episodes of the season that were very much to protect June and very much to help her. And then the whole Jezebel's thing happened. And then after that, I mean, his conversation with Rita, where he just, just basically, we were never friends. We were never, you know, I feel like he's. Because it's always been about June. It has always been about June. And his love for her.

[01:20:52] And I do think, you know, for different reasons, he was standing at the doorway of that plane trying to decide. What do I do? What direction do I go in for right now? Even just if it's for right now. And at this point, he decided to get on the plane and he plays it up. He made these statements to Lawrence. You know, she told me many times to give it up. And Lawrence is just like, you should have listened.

[01:21:22] Yeah. And I felt like when he said that, Nick was like, what? Why are you saying that? I know. I'm thinking, Lawrence, don't give it up, please. I don't want you to die, but I don't want them to live. So don't F this up. I think that maybe is an interesting way of thinking about it, too. That if Nick really is like, this is the decision I'm making for now because he thinks he'll have umpteen however many more chances to make a different decision.

[01:21:52] And then he doesn't anymore. Yeah. That also kind of has a message to it, which is that like, well, you may not have forever to decide whether you're going to stand on the right side of something and decide to take the risk of doing that instead of just staying where it's comfortable. But for Nick, the choice has always been, do I keep having an affair with June or do I not?

[01:22:18] But it's never been about, do I renounce Gilead? Yeah. He's fine with Gilead. Is he fine with Gilead? He, he, he, he was a driver and he said that, you know what, before this, I would have just been an Uber driver. And as Renee brilliantly said, when she called in last week, that would have been the choice to make that better. I'm paraphrasing, but Nick didn't ever make that choice.

[01:22:47] He's like, no, I'm better in Gilead. I get more stuff. I have more power. I have more influence. And he went from being a driver to a commander and he's never shown any indication that he's not okay with any of that. I don't think. Okay. Somebody on a different podcast mentioned, uh, there was one of the podcasts I listened to where people are very like into Nick and very like, ah, why are they doing this to his character?

[01:23:14] Um, which I honestly don't have super strong feelings about myself, but they did say that the reason Nick became an eye was because of what happened with the previous handmaid at the Waterfords. Because Fred was like abusive to her or something like that. And she ended her own life and he actually, I don't even know if it was reporting.

[01:23:35] But anyways, what I heard was something that like the reason he became an eye was because he wanted to be able to, um, tell on commanders that were abusing their power. I don't know if I remember where that is. Yeah. In the show. I don't remember that, but the woman who killed herself, she's the same one who wrote that Latin phrase that meant. Yep. Don't want to keep you down. Yeah. Carbonara. Super into pasta. Um, but, but okay.

[01:24:02] I mean, I'm glad you said that because I get all worked up about Nick and I, um, someone else should confirm that who knows better than me, but that's what I heard. I haven't seen, I haven't rewatched all of these episodes, so I'm sure there's some details. That said in recent episodes, which are fresher in my mind, um, it's pretty clear that Nick has decided to, uh, he, he could have left and didn't, you know, he's made the choice to stay.

[01:24:32] And rise up. I mean, even if let's just say for the sake of argument that we accept that that's why he became an eye, I mean, people can do things and then do other things later. Yeah, absolutely. He doesn't have a handmaid and I don't think he ever will. So, you know, maybe, um, he's not as bad as some of them. I think he didn't want, let's see.

[01:24:53] He was, uh, he had, he was like married to Eden and I think he tried to, uh, I think he tried to save her. He has some of a conscience. Yeah. He's not just participating in it, like completely unperturbed by like the problematic nature of things around him. Um, but you know, is, is he just still too complacent? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

[01:25:20] I mean, he's a part of the machine and he, uh, what did he say here? He said, guess you decided to join the winners. That was kind of a wild line to have. I don't know that that felt like something he would say to me. Yeah. Well, and he didn't help Rita. No. He shifted. There was like a, an actual, to me, shift in his character.

[01:25:47] I mean, just, yeah, well, just the idea. I just, I remember over like one season he was a driver and the next he was commander. And it's like, what happened there? How, how would that happen? I think that he let, I think the thing that happens in between there is he let June escape with the baby. Yeah. Um, we've talked around it this whole time.

[01:26:11] I feel like now we have to talk about what transpired to create the big blast that we saw at the very end. And basically Lawrence gets brought into, uh, to Wello's office because they've come up with a plan to put a bomb on the plane. Very simple, in a briefcase, a bomb.

[01:26:38] And that's when Lawrence gives that line that, you know, he, he's an economist, not James Bond. June offers to go with him as his getaway driver. The second she said that, I was like, there's, he's not getting away. I mean, I already thought that. No. As soon as they brought him in with the bomb thing, I'm like, oh my God, they're going to, that was like the final nail. I'm like, he's dying. Oh my God. I'm not, I don't, I don't know. I was. Yeah.

[01:27:09] He's brought levity to this show when there's not a lot of levity and it's been needed. I think sometimes to stomach some of the stuff that we've seen. I like when he said, I'm an economist. I'm not James Bond. I know it's outside of your comfort zone way outside. Have you met me? My comfort zone is minuscule. He also, in that conversation goes, you know, it kind of sounds like you're talking about me doing this thing.

[01:27:38] Could have sworn that. Can't you just shoot it down? It's like, am I possibly mistaken here? Yeah. And so he agrees to do it. They drive over. They are going early. And he basically, you know, says to June, be right back. I'll try not to fuck this up. And that's when the other commanders arrive and he's faced with a decision.

[01:28:07] Do you get on the plane with the briefcase or do you not get on the plane with the briefcase? And he chose to get on the plane with the briefcase. And there's this one moment where he's standing by the door, almost like Nick was, where he just looks at June and puts his hand on his heart. And that was it for me. Like, I. Lawrence, good, bad, whatever. He's a commander.

[01:28:37] Yes, he's he's it's bad. Lawrence has been one of the most compelling things to watch on this show. And to know that he's made this decision to sacrifice himself. Was. More emotional for me, I think, than I expected.

[01:28:59] And then he gets on the plane and then not only do we have this, but we have Nick getting on the plane as well. And you're watching June's face, realizing. We know that June has interfered with things. She wanted Janine to run away with them from Jezebel's. Like, there have been all these moments that she her emotions have driven her to almost ruin plans that were put in place.

[01:29:27] And this time she didn't. She sat there and you see her realizing what Lawrence is doing and then seeing Nick show up and he gets on the plane and you just see her face. I mean, we've talked about. We talk about Elizabeth Moss's face and her facial acting on this show and how it's just been incredible.

[01:29:51] I think in that moment and in the very end of the episode, it probably has been the best that we've seen. The way that they shot the explosion. They didn't show you the plane exploding. What you see is her face and then it's suddenly lit up by red, which, and you hear the sound. To me was so impactful. Because you're seeing it resonate in her.

[01:30:20] The end of a whole chapter of her life. And I'm sure she's sitting there thinking like, you know, the thought has to have crossed her mind to like run out there and say something or like. How many times has she done stuff like that? I mean, she. Yeah. In this case, she left him. And I think that's part of it. Right. After he. She felt betrayed him by giving up the whole thing at Jezebel's.

[01:30:49] I think that's a big part of it. I think I don't know what she would have done otherwise, though. What if that hadn't happened? I know. You know. Well. I also was impacted by. Bradley Whitford making his last like exit. Oh, man. Yeah. From the show. And.

[01:31:14] I don't think he when he's getting ready to walk to the plane, I don't think he's ever thinking about not doing it. I think that he is. Knowing that he's going to do this thing and he's like just taking a moment to be like, I'm just going to have one last look at this beautiful world because I'm never going to see the world again. Yeah. All I'm going to see is the inside of this plane and these fuckers for the next however long. And that's it. And it there's it kind of reminded me of.

[01:31:46] There's something in. Is it a tale? Is it a tale of two cities? No. What's the book that's about the French Revolution? Is that the tale of two cities? I don't remember. I might be mixing up the title. So there's a thing that is either just somewhere in that book or near the end where somebody is waiting in line for the guillotine.

[01:32:03] And like it's this like what's going through their head in this moment and like the seeing person after person in front of them just transition from being right there to just being on the other side of just I don't not existing. There's something very just emotionally like confusing and impactful and very, very interesting about the way that that passage was written.

[01:32:29] And that was the same thing I was thinking about of like watching him like cross over this barrier to being inside the plane because once he's inside the plane, you know, he's probably not going to have a whole lot of meaningful conversations and like beautiful, important, emotionally important, important things happen that he like cares about remembering about the world. So what he's doing first is like having this last thing and this last connection with a human being that he actually like cares about.

[01:32:56] And then I also think the way they had the plane, I agree that we had so much stuff earlier, like all this action with like stabbing and all these sort of gorier definition of gory, maybe depending on show, but like having this happen in a way that's almost quiet. Subtle. It's subtle. Yeah, it leaves space for the emotional part of it to just land on you. Yeah. It sounded like I was making a pun.

[01:33:25] I did not mean to do that. Yeah. Well, when he when he's there and, you know, the other commanders show up and it's like, oh, shit. And I thought it was a little silly to have June hiding behind the car. A little ways away, kneeling down and like maybe get in the driver's seat and just try to seem unobtrusive. Because if you know, if the camera had pulled back and you'd see that whole scene, it would just look ridiculous. Absolutely.

[01:33:51] But so anyway, like Laura Bradley Whitford did such a great job because he just had this queasy look on his face. It's like, oh, and it's a typical Lawrence thing, though. It's something we've come to see from Lawrence in specific situations. Yes. But there was a little something extra this time. I agree with you, but a little something extra here because it's a big deal. And Wharton's like, we we need a united front in D.C.

[01:34:20] I'm pleased you're joining us. Come. And then it plays on his face. And I do think that he's making the decision in this moment. Actually, I said it was before he got on the plane, but it's really here. And Wharton's like, are you with this commander? Because he senses like what's this pause? And then and then he goes, commander. And Lawrence goes after you. And I think that's when he decided, OK, fuck it. I'm doing it. And then he gets on the plane.

[01:34:47] And I still I may maybe not at this point, but when he was first interacting with the commander. So I'm like, OK, he should just like get on and then say, oh, I forgot. I left my stove on or something. Go to the bathroom. Wait, no, there's a bathroom on the plane. Oh, I got a call from Naomi. She needs me. I forgot my basketball. He is the thing. It had to be this way. Yeah. It's such a fitting end. It had to be this way for this character.

[01:35:16] What I think about it is Lawrence is now with Eleanor again, the love of his life. Like, if you believe in that. He's, you know, he's not been the same since his wife died. She was his, you know, true love. And he, as far as we know, remained true to that. So I'm sure he did. Yeah. Didn't even want a handmaid. Yeah. I think this had to happen. I think it had to be this way.

[01:35:45] And I think he went out in a way that I think probably Bradley Whitford would have wanted, like for his, this character to have this impactful exit from the show. And I honestly sat here after the episode ended and just didn't say anything except writing notes like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

[01:36:14] And then followed it up with, thank you, Elizabeth Moss. Thank you, Bradley Whitford. Thank you, Bruce Miller. Give them all the things. Because I just feel like this episode, though it seemed like two parts, had the gamut of emotions from beginning to end.

[01:36:37] And I'm really interested in what people are going to say when they see it, because I think there are people that are going to be really devastated about Nick. But for me, Lawrence was what affected me. Because I feel like he made decisions to help with this rebellion as much as he could over time.

[01:37:07] And Nick flipped back and forth a few times, but I feel like Lawrence has been one that June has been able to count on, even though she let his wife die. I mean, even though he knows that she let Eleanor die. Yeah. I feel like it was a very fitting end because of all the guilt that he has. Yes. And because he lost the only thing he cared about, his wife.

[01:37:34] And because of that guilt, he tried to help by making New Bethlehem. That's not going to work out. He knows it. And so when he tells Nick, you know, you do what you have to survive. Well, what about all your plans? Well, someone better than I will need to see them through. I thought that was a really poignant moment. Like someone better than me. Like even just saying better than I shows that he carries this shame and guilt with him.

[01:38:01] But he's also hopeful that this is I'm doing my part right now. And I hope someone else can do what else needs to be done. And I just love that. It was just like a poetic moment. And then when they're sitting there as the plane accelerates onto the runway and you see the cabin in frame with all of them just sitting there. I was so tense. I'm like, we're going to see the blow up right now. You know, like, oh, my God. And so I was glad I didn't think the show would do it that way. I was glad it didn't.

[01:38:31] And you see instead June walking out and she sees it blow up as it takes off. And I had a feeling of relief. I was like, OK, I mean, I don't know. That's a weird feeling to have. But because I love the character. But we're here at the end of the series. And he got to do something with his life that was meaningful in this last moment, you know. So it was it was a great ending. I mean, it can be a relief because you're like, well, I thought I expected this to happen for a long, long time.

[01:39:00] So now at least I know how it happened and that there's some level of closure to that. Big missed opportunity here to do a crossover where they land in the Canadian wilderness and have to eat each other. Yes. I was thinking about Laura Lee. Who's the antler queen of this airplane? Oh, God. The pilot was Laura Lee, by the way. Brought to you by. She's a terrible pilot. Yep. Laura Lee Airlines. Fly once. Yeah, the bomb didn't actually go. Fly once. It's over.

[01:39:32] I'm grateful that they didn't show us the explosion, like, from the point of view of the people that were on the plane. Because I, yeah, I just don't think that would have been true to what this show has been about. I think it would have. I think the way that they did it, the way they shot it, the way the explosion happened, how they showed it is much more true to this show and how.

[01:39:57] As we talked about, the subtlety, the nuances are much more impactful. Mm-hmm. And I'm still, even when, I mean, at the end, when we see June come out and she's watching the plane take off, I wasn't sure if they were going to make it a cliffhanger and we were going to have to wait until next week to find out what happens. And when they did it, I realized it got me.

[01:40:28] The end of this episode, really, just. I mean, I knew we'd have ups and downs this season. I knew we were going to lose people. I just, this hit me more than I thought. And because of Lawrence. Not, not really Nick. And that, if you'd asked me like last season or the season before, I might have said something different, but really it was Lawrence.

[01:40:51] Because I think Lawrence had a, like you said, Jason, the guilt and realizing his own role in creating a world that his wife thought was a personal hell. Um, I feel like June probably had that same feeling of watching the plane too, because even though you know what's going to happen, I feel like there's still a part of you that's like, but really?

[01:41:15] Like there's just something very surreal about her being just one little person standing on the tarmac, which wearing whatever cloaking device she's been wearing this entire scene that causes her to be totally invisible. There's no one else at this airport. No one in the plane looks out the window and sees this random woman in a trench coat crouching behind the car. Nope, they didn't. They're oblivious to it. They only, you know what? They only have eyes for their wives. They don't look at other women.

[01:41:44] Even though we know they did. They did. But, you know what I mean. There's obviously also just like no border guards really anymore. Oh no. The guardians have evacuated. There's no one left. I don't have a super strong feeling about that. Like, I hate this ending for Nick, but I'm not necessarily like, oh, this is really, this feels super right to me. Yeah. I don't have that feeling either. I don't know.

[01:42:15] But I think it says something that I was more concerned or my heart was more affected by it. Lawrence's death. Well, I mean, I also like, I was, I think like, I like that actor and there are some interactions between June and Nick that I think were, that are like interesting or cool, especially during the time when June is still very much trapped in Gilead.

[01:42:40] And he is almost like, you know, her only source for any kind of like real genuine affection and like real conversations. But I don't really, I've never really been into the like smoldering gaze star-crossed lovers vibe between these two characters in the first place. Because I think that they have a trauma bond and have been, they just know each other very situationally. Like we don't really know who Nick is outside of the context of Gilead.

[01:43:10] Like, well, I mean, like I was reading on the news. I don't know if you heard, but the co-showrunner, Eric Tuchman said, you know, we're very aware that people feel deeply connected to Nick and very invested in the June and Nick relationship. He has done wonderful things for June. He's saved her many times, but that's only a part of his day. The other vast majority of his time is spent as a Gilead commander and he rose from a driver to commander. So he must've been doing something to contribute to that ascent.

[01:43:37] Nick has had many opportunities to leave and to leave with June. He's been in Canada. He's made the choice time and time again to go back to Gilead and to double down on Gilead. We felt like it was important to show that he has been this character all along, that he hasn't left. He's talked to how about how before there was a Gilead, he was nothing. We felt like as storytellers, we would be dishonest if we didn't incorporate those choices that he's already made into showing what he's like and what his characters really like. So those are the right, the showrunners talking about Nick.

[01:44:05] That gives a little bit of a clue of what they're thinking anyway. And Eric Tuchman actually wrote this episode. And I think it was a fitting end. I thought it was karma, instant karma, because he made his choice to just be in Gilead and that's what you get.

[01:44:22] Do you think his relationship with Rose is like, like a mask off, like honest with each other kind of relationship or like there's barriers there? I don't think he's been honest with her about June. No. Because that was the thing early on that made me and I think some other people think that she was like, not shitty.

[01:44:48] Because I feel like there was at least one conversation between her and him about June where it seemed like she was like aware of and not upset about whatever. Yeah. But I mean, that was a while ago. I don't remember for sure. At some point she became upset about it. Mm-hmm.

[01:45:07] Which, I mean, you can understand the situation, but you're not going to want it to just keep happening or to have it be a lingering ongoing, like, wrench in the marriage that you're trying to build. Yeah. Yeah. Like, she was maybe like, okay with knowing that this was a situation going into it, but this really needs to stop happening. Yeah. Wow. Does anyone have anything left? Nope.

[01:45:37] You know, I don't either. I think this one, I mean, there have been episodes that have impacted me this whole time. And this one, this season, I think this is the one that I am going to have to sit with for a little bit longer. Same. I'm ready, though, to find out how it ends. Like, I'm ready to see what comes next. I had to double check again that there's only one more episode.

[01:46:07] I know. How in the hell? I don't know. I can't imagine how that's going to work. I don't know either. We know that Testaments is coming. It is in production now. We're not going to talk about it because, one, I haven't read it. And two, if I had, I wouldn't want to spoil anything for anyone. But I'm interested in seeing how we close this door, this chapter. Yeah.

[01:46:35] I'm also curious, do we see Holly again? Do we see Nicole again? Do we see Hannah again? Yeah. Who was, you know, the ongoing, like, search for reuniting with Hannah has been, like, that was, especially in the earlier seasons, very much like the driving motivation for June's character. It feels like now it's more about, like, the revolution in general.

[01:46:59] But I'm like, are we going to, I would, I would very least love to see Holly again. Are we going to see June fucking sacrifice herself? And then we get force ghosts of all three of them? Or, like, things flashing before her eyes at the end? I don't know. I, yeah, I, I don't know. And I've thought, I don't know if the two of you have, what would be a satisfying ending for this show, for you?

[01:47:30] And I can't really put a finger on what I want it to be. I just know that in the past there have been shows that have stuck the landing. Yeah. And then there have been shows that haven't. I mean, President Mark Twelo? I'm down with that. And I know he'll get Wendy's phone. I mean, the fall of Gilead would be pretty good. Yeah. I don't, I, I don't see that happening.

[01:48:00] No. Especially because of what Serena said about how more men are going to keep coming and take their places. And June said, then we'll keep fighting. And I'm like, that seems like it's going to be some version of that. Maybe some establishment of some in Gilead characters that are really committed to the revolution that, that you feel like gives you some hope. Yeah. Yeah, hope would be good.

[01:48:25] That are not just people outside, but like people like embedded, like Aunt Ava was. Ava? Yeah. Aunt Phoebe. Shit, though, like what would be the thing for June? I don't know. That she goes to a therapist. Like. Well, getting Hannah back. Yeah. Would be. I wish I saw that happen. Hannah didn't want to. I would love it. Even if they're just reconnected.

[01:48:54] Even if it's not, okay, she has, you know, she and Hannah run away. If they're just, if they're reconnected, I would. If she like gets her a letter or something. Yeah. Yeah. Because if they see each other in person and then have to be physically torn away from each other again, like I don't think that. Oh, I don't want to see that again. I don't want to see that. No more. But I also think that one of the reasons why June is so focused on revolution is it is about Hannah.

[01:49:22] Because she doesn't want this world, this country to be. Something that just continues to facilitate this sort of thing. I think she has turned towards revolution because the try to actually get Hannah back does not feel like something that's actionable right now. Yeah, because it's not working. Like it hasn't worked.

[01:49:49] And so the revolution, at least she feels she's moving in a direction that she could potentially at least reconnect with her daughter. But reconnecting at this point with no real finality of this is the oppressive society and it needs to stop and ending it. I think she may have just realized, you know what, I've got to be part of changing this so that when we reconnect, we're not just going to be torn apart again.

[01:50:19] And making it possible. Or it's like she maybe, I'm sure she has to have always have hope that it's possible to do that actually. I was going to say maybe she feels like that's not possible and so she's trying to do something that still feels meaningful. Because that's what one of the things people do with grief and trauma is like put this, find a way that you can do something even if it can't directly do that thing.

[01:50:43] But I'm sure that any parent would be like, I am going to still have hope that I'm going to see my child again. I don't see that ever stopping. I don't know where she's at with it, though, because the last time they were together, Hannah was just afraid of her. You know? But we did get that scene with Hannah in the wife school where she does know her name is Hannah. God, wife school. Fuck. Doesn't that sound horrible? I mean, it's just so dystopian, blah, blah, and horrible.

[01:51:14] I love that phrase. Dystopian, blah, blah. That's my new blog I'm starting. Dystopian, blah, blah. Stop by every day for words of wisdom. Come check it out on LiveJournal. Yep. God, LiveJournal. I feel like we'll see Holly again because I feel like some part of, especially if she doesn't see Hannah again. Yeah. Um, I don't know.

[01:51:40] Especially because some part of, like, you know, maybe she sees Holly again and Holly is like, alright, I'm down for the revolution again. I feel motivated. I don't know. Yeah. And then they shake hands and then it fades to black. I don't know. I know. I'm really looking forward to having at least closure of the series. And I just hope that they stick the landing and I feel like they've done such a good job. I have that feeling that they will.

[01:52:10] It just may not be what we're all hoping for or expect. And I'm okay with it. I've been on this ride. I have to trust that they know what they're doing.

[01:52:39] Alright, that's our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next up, we have Handmaid's Tale Season 6, Episode 10. The Handmaid's Tale. It sounds funny when you say it like that. I know, right? We want to remind you that we have a private Facebook group called The Handmaid's Tale Mayday. We've had a bunch of people join us there recently. It's been great. Lots of support and discussion about The Handmaid's Tale and current events.

[01:53:07] So please join us there. That would be great. We will be having a separate feedback episode to collect or collate everything that we've received. We appreciate all of you that have sent in all of your messages and thoughts on the show this season. It's been fantastic. Fantastic. So please keep it coming.

[01:53:31] We will do that after Handmaid's Tale wraps up, which will be next week. Can't believe it. Yeah. And so if you guys want to write in or send us a voice message, just go to podcastica.com. You can find all our contact information there. And while you're there, be sure to check out our other shows. What show should they check out, Madeline? I would check out the coverage of The Last of Us. I've also been listening in on that one.

[01:54:01] And yeah. Good season. Yes. I am loving the second season of that show. I think even better than the first one, actually. Yeah. Maybe me too. It's gorgeous. It is. Although I miss one certain person who I won't say who it is. Just in case. Yeah. There may still be people behind. I have friends that are behind it. I go to trivia every week and I always ask them, have you watched yet? No, I'm waiting till it's over. I'm going to binge the whole thing. Oh, man.

[01:54:31] This is so hard for me. I know. I want to talk about it. I mean, I want to have Karen on and I'm like, have you watched it? And she's all, no, no, we're just, I haven't gotten around to it yet. And I'm like, okay. I also like that. And yes, there's definitely stuff that's inaccurate or kind of weird and stuff. But being from Seattle, it is fun. Also listening to and seeing stuff about that. Like there was conversations about Capitol Hill, which is a neighborhood I live right in the middle of. So. Oh, wow.

[01:55:00] Well, now I'm on the backside of the hill, but yeah, it's, it's been my home neighborhood for like a long, long time. So. That's cool. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. And we're just going to board this plane right now and head off and we'll be fine. And we'll see you next week. Bye.