The Testaments S1E10 "Secateurs"

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[00:00:30] Hmm? Ah! Huh. I'm trying to fight to save these girls and you're telling me not to- You cannot save them yet. They don't know they need saving. Let me try. If you knew them you would give me a chance. They have crushes and things that they want and they find a way to live real lives.

[00:00:55] Bek is so strong. She did some crazy shit to protect her friends. To protect Agnes. Hulda doesn't have a mean bone in her body and Shunammite? She cut a bitch to defend her friends. Seriously, these girls are-

[00:01:13] Is she your age? Agnes, is she your age? Agnes McKenzie. She's yours. She's the one you left behind.

[00:01:59] Everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast: The Testaments. This week we're covering the season one finale of the Testaments, season one, episode 10, Secateurs? Secateurs. And we're late. Some of you have let us know that we're late. Sorry about that.

[00:02:26] We were gonna save the feedback for this episode and do it all at once. So we wanted to give you guys time to turn in your feedback. But then it turned out, and we probably should have seen this coming, that there's so much feedback that we're still gonna have to do that in a separate feedback episode anyway. So we're hoping that should be out sometime later this week. Or next week. So you'll get a bonus episode. Yeah.

[00:02:50] Yes. Before we get started, we just want to mention that the Testaments has officially been renewed for season two. Congratulations, Bruce Miller and team. I'm already ready for it. No surprise, I'm sure.

[00:03:10] He said in an interview, it might actually be in the news, but that, you know, it was like, these actors are not gonna stay young forever or something like that. They're not. Probably didn't really like that. So, you know, he recognizes that they need to try to come out with the episodes of the show quickly. And so hopefully that means they can do a yearly release. That would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

[00:03:38] It's a lot of pressure for the level of production that they're bringing. True. Yeah. It was a fantastic season. I'm already looking forward to season two. And honestly, it I'm not surprised that it was as well done as it has been because we got used to that with The Handmaid's Tale and it's just continued with this series.

[00:04:09] It's just so visually stunning, even if the subject matter is terrifying. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm really happy with this show. It's made this sort of part of the year podcasting really fun because we get to do a show where we can't wait to see the next episode. Can't wait to talk about it. Brings up so many things to talk about and so much engagement from you guys, which just makes it all the more fulfilling for us. So thank you guys.

[00:04:38] Yeah, it's been fantastic. And honestly, welcome to all the new additions to the Mayday group. There's been so many people joining the group over the last couple of weeks in particular. I saw we hit 700 people. That's because they're all going, where the hell is your episode? Yeah. So now we know the plan for the future. Just publish late.

[00:05:04] No. Here it is. Here's our episode. We hope that you guys like it. We don't know how it's going to turn out because we're just starting it at this moment. Generally, what did you guys think of this one? I can go first and just say so much happened in this episode and it really capped off a great season, but I think it set things up for next season really, really well.

[00:05:32] I loved it. I thought this whole season has on some level been about these girls waking up to the oppression that they've been under and the injustice of Gilead. And then this episode, it really ended on them deciding to do something about it and they got a win. And so that just sort of set the tone for the future, I think. And I liked it. Yeah.

[00:06:00] I mean, it was a win, but it was a win that it had a huge cost to it. Yeah. There were a lot of sacrifices. One particularly big one. Yeah, for sure. And that's The Handmaid's Tale. Yeah. I was reluctant to watch it again. Like after I watched it the first time, I was just kind of dreading watching it again, not because it wasn't fabulous, because it was.

[00:06:29] But it's just really left an impression on me. And, you know, just. Watching the plight of Becca was really heartbreaking and hard. I think that over the season, the girls have been learning more and more about their world as they're becoming young women about to be married off.

[00:06:52] And I think in this episode, they really got to see the cost of it and also that. But the price that you have to pay to rescue or protect the people you care about is often incredibly high.

[00:07:14] And I think especially for Daisy, she realized that the life of one person in the grand scheme of things isn't worth as much as she probably thought it was. And to her, these are women with names and personalities. And those outside of Gilead who are fighting the bigger fight don't see it that way.

[00:07:40] Because why would they? They're not in it. They don't know them. They're just faced with trying to win a war. But also, June does understand it because she's been through it herself. How many people she lost along the way. Who better to understand what Daisy's talking about than June? But even then, Daisy doesn't understand how much June really knows.

[00:08:10] Yeah, I mean, June's saying, look, you have to be okay with some collateral damage. It's going to happen. Then Daisy said, well, they're not collateral to me. Like, they're my friends. And I thought, well, June hasn't always been good at that either. Look at when Mayday was going to bomb Jezebels. And June went there to protect or try to save Janine.

[00:08:35] And so it's like, okay, June, it's easy to say that when you're not personally connected to the person. But when you are, then you're going to go risk everything to try to save them. And that concept is exactly what convinced June to go ahead and send Daisy back in, even though it might be reckless. Because she found out the person she cares about the most was involved, Hannah. So it was just like her proving right in that moment.

[00:09:05] Okay, yeah, there's some collateral damage. But sometimes if it's someone you care about, you're going to have to, you know, I understand wanting to save them and possibly jeopardize the larger mission, I guess. Well, and June's always been, at least I feel like, willing to risk or sacrifice when it comes to Hannah. And having that confirmation, I'm not surprised she sent Daisy back because it's about Hannah.

[00:09:34] That's what this has always been about from the very beginning. Right. But she's also has been okay with some collateral damage for other people. You know, like she's telling Daisy, you need to be okay with that. Yeah. So it's not easy. And I feel like what Daisy did is exactly what June would have done. And she has to recognize that at some level. Yeah. So I really, obviously, it was about Hannah.

[00:10:03] It was definitely about Hannah. But more than that, I feel like it was June recognizing that that's what she would have done. And at some point, she has to just go with her gut, you know. And her gut is telling her, I was there. And, you know, maybe this girl can pull something off from the inside that we're just not able to do. Yeah.

[00:10:30] I think she recognizes her own spirit in Daisy. Yeah. And Daisy very much reminded me of June right there, just saying it like it is. And even when June said, okay, but I mean, I really admired Daisy for saying, look, I might die in here, but I'm choosing this for myself. Because then it's more like, okay, you see clearly and you're making this choice. And I admire her for that. But then even when June said, I'm going to need you to be safe in there.

[00:10:59] And Daisy was like, I don't, I can't promise. I don't think I can do that, you know. And she could have just placated her and said, okay, I'll try my best. But she's being, they're both being really honest with each other. And June's like, okay, fine. And then she said, may God protect you. And Daisy said, I think she will. And I just felt so moved by that moment. It just felt so real, you know, and inspiring. Yeah.

[00:11:27] And I just see so much of June and Daisy. Like, yeah. Even when Daisy is faced with, you know, kind of these impossible scenarios, she's always like, well, we got to do something. Well, we got to do something about that. What can we do? She's compelled. Yeah. She can't stop herself. Yeah. And, and Agnes was reminding me of June too, in the way that she went up to Vidala. I was like, what are you going to do about this?

[00:11:56] I think she did the same thing to Lydia. Right. And that just reminds me of, cause Vidala can be scary sometimes, but it reminded me of June a lot of times just going up and not caring that this next thing out of her mouth could get her killed. Cause she just got to say it. And then a lot of times the people who we had seen do cruel things to people, they just respected her boldness and that there was truth coming out of her mouth. I think so. So, uh, you know, they went with it. Well, let's jump in to points.

[00:12:26] I think we're ready to, there's so much to break down in this episode. Does anyone want to go first? I'm offering it to the two of you. I think you should. Me? Yeah. All right. So, um, here we go. My first point is this episode is when Agnes McKenzie becomes Hannah Bankel, basically to me.

[00:12:54] She is her mother's daughter. And there were so many moments, especially when she's trying to get people to fight to save Becca. That reminded me so much of her mother.

[00:13:08] At the beginning of the season, there was a big difference, I think, between June and Hannah, aka Agnes, because Agnes had been raised in this family and really sheltered life from everything. But so much of how she acted in this episode reminded me of June. We've talked about it a little bit. Going to Vidala and asking, what are you going to do?

[00:13:37] Going outside and going to Garth and asking about Becca and asking what he's going to do about it. So much so that he has to comfort her, which is against not okay. But anyway, um, as Estee comes out and has witnessed it. And kudos even to him for talking back to her a little bit. I was afraid for him there. I was like, wait, who's more powerful, an aunt or a guardian? I think aunts. Yeah.

[00:14:05] So, I mean, I think it's a pissing match between those two. And they could, they could, they both, you know, could get the other in trouble. Right. It's a risk. Yeah. Yeah. Because Estee even says to Agnes, you know, if I'm, if I tell Aunt Lydia this, or if people find out about this, you know, you could be in big trouble. Right.

[00:14:28] But Agnes standing there and listening to what they were, how they were explaining why Becca was not going to be coming back about the death of her father and not Becca killed her father or anything like that. Just, you know, glossing it over with her father died.

[00:14:49] And Agnes couldn't stand it just listening to it because Agnes knew what Dr. Grove had been doing because he did it to her. And so she, to me, showed a lot of bravery to leave the building and go outside because that's not okay. They don't like them to do stuff like that. The aunts don't want to see the girls running out of the building or running off by themselves.

[00:15:19] They're expected to stand there and take it really. Yeah. They're showing the answer, showing more understanding for breaches in, in etiquette and behavior right now. And I think that makes sense. I mean, you would hope they would given this one of their, what just happened with their friend here. Yeah.

[00:15:42] So it makes sense, but you would also not be surprised in a show about Gilead if Victoria would be, where are you going young lady? You know, or something like that. Well, too, Agnes showed a lot of bravery. I mean Vidal, not Victoria. Agnes showed a lot of bravery talking to Weston and telling him what she did. I mean, granted. Yes. We're not sure why he called off the wedding. I have a couple of ideas. Why?

[00:16:12] Oh, I think I know why. He assisted to get Becca. Like, Agnes took a risk that paid off and got Becca out of where she was. Temporarily, at least. But for her to stand there and talk, you know, for Agnes to listen to him, for him to say to her, you know, we're going to be husband and wife.

[00:16:41] Your issues are my issues. You know, what's mine is yours and what yours is mine, but that's not really how it works. And Gilead, it's more like you're a woman. So your things are my things and my things are my things. But. He said my, your concerns are my concerns. Yeah. And so she sat down and I mean, she told him. It changed her life like that changed her life, that decision to speak to him, basically revealing that she had been.

[00:17:12] A victim. Put him in a position. He got up right away like he stood up. He didn't even he didn't stay seated. He got up and. Asked her if her parents knew that it had happened. And of course, they don't know. So why do you let's talk about it? Why? Yeah. Why do you guys think he broke up, broke it off with her after that? Because I think he believes.

[00:17:41] And wants and desires like most Gilead high, powerful men, they are looking for the virgin bride. Yeah. I think she's sullied, quote unquote. Yeah. Even though he's had multiple partners and multiple. Doesn't matter. At least one wife. Right. And he's an old man. It doesn't matter. He's looking for the virgin bride. That's what they're looking for. I mean, it's I think it's it could be a preference like that.

[00:18:11] But also, it's just how Gilead is. If if a woman's been touched by another man, it's a mark. It's seriously a serious thing. It's totally fucked up. That's the way it is. Yeah. And if he if he's actually pious and believes in the Gilead scripture, he might believe that because she sullied.

[00:18:37] They might not be blessed with a baby or their wedding wouldn't be blessed or their marriage wouldn't be blessed. Who knows? I mean, I. I feel like most of the most of the people in power. Much like real life. They don't really believe those things, but. Right. Right. And also. It's just a means to an end. That it was her fault. Like if you were super pious, you might think. Yeah. Well, that was somehow you brought that on yourself. Yeah.

[00:19:07] It's all just clearly very fucked up. But yeah, just trying to figure out why he broke it off. That was what I thought, too. Is that what you thought? I thought that was part of it, but I also think that. He knows more about Agnes than. She's my future wife. Here she is. I think he knows who her mother is. And.

[00:19:37] Because of Agnes's connection to the Becca situation, didn't want it to things were just starting to stack up and he didn't want any of that to fall back on him. To just too much. Yeah. I mean, when he asked if her parents knew. Yeah. I can't quite figure out what that's about. But my guess is because then he told her father he was breaking it off with her because she was too close

[00:20:05] to the whole Dr. situation. situation and he, you know, just didn't want to be associated with it or whatever. And then as her dad said, that's nonsense. And it is like, how is she too close? Because she was friends with this girl. Why does that matter? So, but I think maybe he just wanted to know whether the parents knew so he could figure out what kind of a lie he could get away with or something. Yeah. I don't think Mackenzie was that upset about the wedding being called off, honestly. I mean, he.

[00:20:34] The more thing to be upset about is what does this mean for her? Yeah. Because just like being quote unquote sullied, you know, Paula later, she's just fallen to pieces over the whole thing. And she's talking about Becca and oh yeah, she, nobody's going to want her anymore. She's fallen and maybe sullied. And those two words I think are pretty specific. I think sullied we've, we've figured out what that means. It's probably had some kind of a sexual experience and fallen means that Becca doesn't have,

[00:21:02] she's not part of a stable, upright Gilead family anymore with a wife and a commander. And so for Paula to be upset about, I think, I think similar with Agnes, this could mean she's fallen. And I mean, later on, you know, we see aunt Lydia say that this is a big mark on, on you, but we're going to try our best to figure it out or whatever.

[00:21:32] Well, and her father being who he is, we'll do everything he can to protect her as well. Yeah. That's what he said too. But she was worried, right? You could see Jason Finney did a good job. Like, what does this mean for me? Yeah. But there's gotta be a part of her that's relieved. She didn't want to marry that old man. Mm-mm. I would think there would be, but she wasn't showing that. But then she did tell Daisy it was worth it. She goes, I ruined my life, but it was worth it. So I don't know if she's,

[00:22:02] I think she's feeling happy that she saved her friend from possibly, I mean, they thought she was going to be executed. Yeah. Agnes took a huge risk. A lot of them did in this episode. I think risk was a big part of the episode. Even the ants going to create the situation that did save Becca was a risk. I mean, there's a lot of things at stake and a lot of chess pieces being moved around.

[00:22:32] But I felt like we saw Hannah in this episode. We saw June's daughter, Hannah. Mm-hmm. The most we see. Just because of how... Brave and proactive and... Yeah. I think she's been building towards this, this season. And this was the episode that it all came together. And she risked it.

[00:23:03] I mean, wasn't it... Yeah. I mean, Daisy said something about teenage girls at the end of the episode. She said, I'm going to destroy Gilead and what... In the honey message, in the message in the honey that she sent to June, she said, I'm going to destroy Gilead with what it values most. I'm staying in the fight. I'm going to create my own army. Because nothing can be more powerful than a teenage girl.

[00:23:28] And I think she's right in this case. Yeah. That was interesting to me because the phrase that stuck into my mind on first watch was, nothing can be more powerful than a teenage girl. Which is like this sort of powerful, feel-good moment to end on. But when I watched it again, the part that stuck with me was when she said, the girls are strong and will destroy Gilead with what it values most.

[00:23:58] And then I thought, yeah, that's true in a sense. They value young, fertile women most, but only as objects like vessels. Right? And so it's like, well, we're going to show them what we're really capable of. And they do have leverage because of who and what they are. Mm-hmm. I mean, the girls left at the school, if you look at Agnes and who, her father is and Shunammite and who her father is. Very powerful.

[00:24:30] Anyway, that was my first point. Who wants to go next? I'll talk a little bit about, we said we thought that the series might end up with a wedding. We got a wedding. And we got a wedding. And again, I said that when I knew I had to prepare for this podcast and watch it a second time, I was just dreading.

[00:24:58] It was really hard to watch once we got to the point of Becca's wedding. She's all dressed up. Becca's certainly beautiful. This is kind of the culminating moment that most of these girls have been trained all their lives. This is their big day. But we see Becca is just an absolute wreck.

[00:25:23] Estee has injected her with, I'm assuming, Ativan or something to calm her down. And it works. She does get pretty catatonic. Yeah. And we just see this dual montage of Becca's wedding interspersed with Becca's mother being executed. It was just really, really hard to watch.

[00:25:51] And watching Agnes, you know, make this huge sacrifice for Becca to save Becca. Watching Garth, who she loves, marry Becca. Just dumb. And then we see Garth carry Becca. Did they go back to Becca's house? I think that was the Grove's house. I think it was, too. I mean, nobody else lives there, right?

[00:26:19] So that's now where they're going to live. Yeah, that's maybe their house. So it takes Becca back to her house. I'm assuming back to Becca's room. And lays her in the bed and leaves and locks the door behind him. It's just really heartbreaking. He was so careful with her. Like, he took her shoes off and... I know. There was compassion and empathy there. Absolutely.

[00:26:46] I think purposefully, the imagery was of a typical wedding night with the husband carrying the bride over the threshold, right? But she was half unconscious. And then he puts her in the bed, takes her shoes off, goes out the door. And, you know, I think she looked back like, okay, good. He is the kind of guy that I thought he was. He's not going to try anything. And I'm like, you know, also just feeling like, what a great guy he is.

[00:27:14] And then I'm like, wait, he just locked her in there? Why do you lock the door from the outside? That was kind of... I didn't understand that. Because I'd say she's unstable. Yeah. I mean, what did she just do, you know? Okay. Yeah. I guess you're right. To protect her from herself. To protect himself. No, to protect both of them. Yeah. Yeah. Really? You think? Yes. I better lock the door just in case. I think to protect her from her...

[00:27:43] I mean, who knows what she will do? I mean, look at earlier in the episode. She was singing a church, little kid's hymn from church over and over and over when Lydia went to see her. Like, she was in some sort of psychotic break. Yeah. Yeah. She's... Yeah. She's... I mean, it's just not the right place for her because she's queer and that's not allowed.

[00:28:12] So she's basically not allowed, you know, as a person. So she... And she's just a young person. Well, and like, I'm glad that Becca got saved. I am. Yeah. I'm really glad that this season didn't end with Becca's execution and I hope we see some more from Becca. But like, at what cost did that cost Becca? Yeah. Like, she had to watch her mother sacrifice herself and now she has to live with that for the rest of her life.

[00:28:41] You know, probably the only person besides Agnes that cared about her. And I was surprised at how... Like, I sort of thought Becca's mother might turn against her, you know? But obviously Becca's mom kind of knew the deal. And she was willing to sacrifice everything for her daughter.

[00:29:08] Well, and she even said that she should have done it sooner. That made me also think... Which leads to me to believe... Yeah. She knew. Yeah. That she knew and that there was... That's more evidence, I feel like, that there was something happening between Becca and Groves. Yeah. Well... But I think they have still left it purposefully vague. They have. It's vague. I'm flip-flopping again and now I think he didn't. He didn't.

[00:29:37] I think that... Like I was saying up until last episode, that's why she was saying things like, oh, my dad will take good care of you, Agnes. But then I thought, oh man, the passion with which she killed him seems like from the kind of a person that has been assaulted. But then one of the listeners pointed out that before she did that, she told Agnes, I would do anything for you. And then when she was done, she related that to Agnes too.

[00:30:05] I forget exactly what she said, but he'll never hurt you again. Yeah. So then I started thinking, I don't know. But I wanted to look online and there was an interview with the actor, Matea Conforti, who plays Becca. They said, how would Becca have described her relationship with her father before learning all of this? And she said, what's so heartbreaking is that Becca's father is not like the other commanders or the other father figures that are in the world. He's a dentist. He doesn't necessarily have to portray this higher level status all the time.

[00:30:35] He was there for Becca. He was supportive. He let Becca come home at the end of the day and relax and get something off her chest if she needed to, or talk about her school day in a free way that other girls weren't able to do with their fathers. It was really heartbreaking because she has this loving household and she has this really great relationship with her parents. So when she finds that out, it's almost like, Daisy, what? My dad's a great guy. He would never do anything like this. He's the town dentist. Everybody loves him. I love him.

[00:31:02] You don't find that feeling of love in any Gilead household. So that sounds like she's saying nothing happened. That's the actress. It doesn't mean it's canon. Yeah. I mean, maybe, you know, sometimes that's the story they've created to play this role. And I just have to say, like, almost out of every single person in this show, I was so impressed with the actress's performance playing Becca.

[00:31:30] Like, what a hell of a role. And in many ways, she seemed to be the star of season one in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The amount of emotion she had to display, especially in this episode. Yeah. I mean. And she's like representative of everything Gilead does to girls. Yeah. You know?

[00:32:00] The point where she's given the Ativan and you, I mean, they basically show you what she's like just before she gets it and how it overtakes her and what happens after. And she just becomes completely numb. Like, she drops her flowers. Yep. She's like crying beforehand. She's saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to do this.

[00:32:30] Where's my mother? I want my mother. Like, she is inconsolable. Yeah. And then she sees Agnes who takes over and gets her ready. And you see her happy to see Agnes. And then they kiss. And then the light goes out in Becca's eyes. Like, the Ativan has just taken over completely.

[00:32:56] And she's just a shell doing what she's told. They walk her, you know, they walk her in there to get married. Yeah. She just stands there. He takes a hold of her. And she doesn't move. She doesn't do anything on her own, really. I was thinking, I guess in Gilead, they don't say I do's. Because it doesn't matter. What you want.

[00:33:26] Gilead just says, yeah, you're married now. You do. Yeah. Do you take this man to be your husband? Because neither of them said vows or I do's. No. He put their rings on. He put the ring on her finger and then on his own. And I don't know if that's what they do. Or if he just did it because she couldn't do anything. Right. She was not present. Yeah. It was happening to her. The wedding happened to her.

[00:33:56] Yeah. Yeah. So that was not the wedding I was hoping for. Even between Garth and Becca, we thought, well, they might have a happy relationship, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Initially, before all this happened. Yeah. I mean, I just figured, yeah, they might have a good roommate situation. Friendship. Which would be the best thing that she could hope for. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:25] And I want to say, too. He might be somebody who cared about her. That I very much appreciate how this seems to have really gotten to you, Wendy, the whole thing with Becca and really moved you and even disturbed you so much. You didn't want to watch the episode again. So I almost hesitate to say this next part.

[00:34:48] But I always think about these stories that we cover in terms of more my emotional reaction or how I would feel personally versus the storytelling aspects and the narrative narratively. For example, some people are just assholes that you would never want to spend any time around. But narratively, they're great characters.

[00:35:12] And so all that to say that I did very much appreciate the Handmaid's Tale-ness of showing a wedding interspersed with a hanging. It's like so fucked up. Yeah. But it's dramatically powerful, I guess, is the way to put it. I thought it was. Yeah. Two ceremonies. There have been episodes like that for me with other shows and even with Handmaid's Tale that I just didn't want to watch again.

[00:35:42] And I made myself do it to do the prep for it. But it was rough to do. I think sometimes it just happens because when you talk about these shows, especially shows that are as polarizing as this one, it's really hard sometimes to go back through and watch it as detailed as you need to in order to take notes. I'm a rewatcher.

[00:36:08] Like, you know, I'm watching House of the Dragon probably for the fourth, fifth time right now. But I don't rewatch Handmaid's Tale for the most part. No. Yeah. I mean, that whole sequence was just so artfully done. And it felt, I don't know if this is what they're going for, but it felt like, you know, one very bad thing while another thing that's better than it could have been, but still not great.

[00:36:35] Like, they're both sort of sentences, you know, one is a death sentence and one is like a life sentence. But it's not like a fairy tale. It's not what Becca really wants. But Becca's alive. Yeah. But she's alive. Yeah. And like, they all knew the next step, if Garth didn't marry her, was probably going to be, she was going to be a handmaid. Or an econo wife or something, you know?

[00:37:05] Lydia did not want her as a handmaid. Like, that was so... Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was her. Yeah. Lydia is definitely not the Lydia of the first couple seasons of The Handmaid's Tale. Maybe the first four seasons. I'm starting to get the... I want to know what is it like for a handmaid now? Because... Yeah. Something... We haven't even seen one. No. We've seen nothing. We haven't even seen the little red doll. Like... You know it's not good. Yeah, we haven't even seen the doll. That's true.

[00:37:35] I think they've locked it down. Yeah, that is interesting. The whole season passed without even an image of a handmaid. Yeah. Not even two walking on down the street or something. Right. And I think in part that is to make us wonder what happened in The Handmaid's and the story, but also it's sort of a way for this show to assert itself as its own thing. You know? This is not The Handmaid's Tale. Right. It's just one of the questions I have for next season. Yeah.

[00:38:04] Like, I'm developing this list of, ah, I wonder what that's about for next year, for when the next season comes out. All right. Jason. Okay. Okay. I'll talk a little bit about Becca being in trouble and then what Agnes starts to do to help. First, we see Becca in like a prison cell. Later, Garth says it's a holding facility for women.

[00:38:34] We see a black clad woman, also known as Margaret Atwood. Yes. Lead Lydia in to check on her. I knew it right away. Did you know it right away? Yeah. Yeah. I saw it right away. I, like, claps. She's a pretty distinct looking. Yeah. Yeah. And the way she said her line, don't agitate her. It was very good. I was so excited because, I mean, we knew that she had a cameo because she said like everywhere that she had a cameo. And I had honestly forgotten.

[00:39:04] Me too. Until she appeared and I'm like, oh, okay. You go Margaret Atwood. Did she ever do a cameo in Handmaid's Tale? I don't think so. I didn't think so either. Yeah. I'm not sure. Maybe she played an aunt, but I don't think so. She may have played an aunt. I'm not sure. Anyways. So, you know, Agnes keeps saying the eyes took Becca. And that's what we said too on our podcast. But listeners noticed that it was actually black clad women.

[00:39:35] I don't know if either of you noticed that, but we didn't mention it. And I think they also had cattle prods like the ants use. They're the ones that took Becca. Yeah. So, I think they're aunt affiliated enforcers or guards or something led by Margaret Atwood. Maybe they're considered eyes, but like the female under the control of the ants. Dealing with women's affairs. What? Why on earth wouldn't you have women as the eyes? I mean, yeah.

[00:40:04] I think in the books they're all male, but maybe in the show there's some women who are eyes. I don't know. I mean, I think we're going to find out more. Yeah. I mean, I hope we find out more, but I just wonder if the ants, because, you know, we've seen that Lydia said, hey, you don't want to have to deal with how women comport themselves in Gilead. Let me be in charge of that. So, maybe that includes, in some cases, like enforcement or whatever like this.

[00:40:32] So, she's in a holding cell for women. There are all these black clad women that came and got her with cattle pods like the ants. So, maybe it's they're under the ants purview. And that's why Lydia was able to come in and check on her. Something like that. Who knows? I mean, yeah, it's a mystery, but it's interesting. It was also an eye that was with Becca's mom when she was being executed.

[00:40:57] And that, I mean, you can't tell, but it certainly had the figure of a woman. Okay. It was somebody very small. And we saw Margaret Atwood was clad in black and there was one or two female guards in there, too, with all black. The men were only behind the glass when she was being executed. Everybody else was a woman, right? In that whole scene.

[00:41:24] So, maybe it's like a division of the eyes that's meant to take care of things with women. Yeah, because Weston was able to get Becca out temporarily and he's in charge of the eyes. So, maybe he's in charge of them, too. So, then Lydia, you know, Judd comes in. Lydia wants him to do something about Becca.

[00:41:50] He says what's important is to minimize the fallout because it's easier to just punish Becca for killing Grove than to try to, like, fairly adjudicate what happened, I guess. And then that's when Judd suggests that Becca become a handmaid and that would be a mercy to her. So, then you know that the stakes are she's either going to be a handmaid or be executed. That's what I think. Yeah. And then Lydia says we can't let that happen and Judd said there is no we anymore.

[00:42:17] And based on how Lydia is with Vidala later, I think that means that the reputation of the school and by association Lydia took a hit because of what happened with Becca. Yeah, I took it to mean that Judd's been looking to get rid of Lydia in some way for a while.

[00:42:37] And he's using this black mark on the school, which is on Lydia, to take that opportunity to say there is no we. You know, he's trying to cut ties with her.

[00:43:18] Yeah. And I think that's what I'm saying for God to save him. I just love that so much. Yeah. And it's that whole thing about God helps those who help themselves. And, but, you know, before that she had to be convinced. And Agnes says, you know, that Becca thought she was doing God's will. As you taught us, blessed are those who thirst for justice for they shall be satisfied. If she was led astray, you did it.

[00:43:44] And I still think that in the first episode of this series, Vidala winced at the guy's hand being sawed off. And so I think it hits her hard when Agnes says, you're the ones who taught us violence. And, and that all kind of reminds me how if Becca had just waited, that her father would have been executed. But the key lesson is that they've been taught that vengeful violence is godly and divine.

[00:44:09] And that is why in that first episode, they made us a point to show that guy who had pleasured himself on campus, get his hand cut off in front of the girls with Estee saying he deserves our judgment. And then prompted even the girls to call for it. Like, what do you say, girls? Should this man go unpunished or should he pay? And then they all were like whipped up in a frenzy by his hand, by his hand as this guy screaming. And she's going, I'm so proud of the women you are becoming.

[00:44:35] And even Agnes and Becca, I went back and rewatched it today just that, just to see how they were reacting. They were just by his hand, by his hand. And then I think we saw maybe it was last episode of the one before the aftermath of, it seemed like another one of those had happened to suggest that it was a regular thing. So that's what they've been taught. Yep. It's the justice that they know. Like, an eye for an eye justice. Right. That they know.

[00:45:06] And then Vidala tells Agnes, you know, I will pray for Becca. And she goes, I prayed for Becca too. I prayed she might have someone to defend her. I just love how she keeps pushing on that. Like, you can't just throw your hands up and say, leave it to God. You got to do something. You have to act. God helps those who help themselves. It's that bravery that we talked about with Agnes in this episode. It really came out. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was great to see.

[00:45:33] And it's always a little anxiety producing when someone with no power stands up to someone with power. But I was glad to see that Vidala respected her in this episode. I mean, it seems to me like Vidala is, this episode she seemed like a pretty good person to me. You could see the struggle on her face. Yeah. Yeah. She was feeling guilty.

[00:46:01] I think the thing with Lydia and Vidala and maybe Este too, although I think we don't know her well enough, is that when they lay down to go to sleep at night, they have to tell themselves certain things. I don't think they're inherently bad people. And I think they tell themselves that they're doing a service to the girls. They're preparing them in the best way possible for this terrible, hard world on women. Yeah.

[00:46:28] And so everything they're doing is to, so that they can survive this world. Right. But the girls have figured out, you know, especially Daisy and Agnes in this episode, how to kind of push on those trigger points on them to say, you're actually not helping us. You're not helping us. You're not saving us.

[00:46:52] Just from the start, what we saw in that episode, Stadium with Vidala and Lydia, especially Lydia, she on some level and Vidala too, they're doing what they have to do to get by and going along to get along. I mean, I think they are, as you said, trying to train these girls so they can also go along to get along.

[00:47:15] But the interesting thing about this series to me is these young girls who grew up in the system and don't even realize how oppressed they are. And now they're starting to realize it. They're the ones that are pushing to know we've got to take risks, got to make sacrifices. We've got to push and rebel. And they're the ones who are inspiring the older ones to sack up, as you would say. And that was really fun to watch. And it's true to life.

[00:47:44] I mean, to some extent, you know, all people are different. But to a great extent, I think the younger you are, the more brazen you might be, the more rebellious you might be willing to be. Because you haven't been knocked down by the world yet or for whatever reason, you know. Yeah. Well, and June said to Daisy, you can't save them yet because they don't know they need saving. And I think we're getting to the point where they're starting to realize, yeah, okay, this is not okay. They're starting to know. Yeah.

[00:48:13] They're starting to know. Yeah, this isn't all right. This situation sucks for us. We need saving and no one's here to save us unless we do something. We have to save ourselves. Okay. Well, then it's back to me. And I want to continue on the Lydia train, I guess.

[00:48:36] The elephant in the room, which is something that I've been thinking about since the stadium, which is they didn't bring it out or discuss. I mean, we didn't see them discuss what happened at the stadium because it was a flashback. And Lydia and Vidala had not talked about it for us to see. But it actually started to come out in this one.

[00:49:00] And this is, I mean, Lydia seems a little bit defeated at this point, realizing that everything that she's done for the girls. And I also think in this episode, you really get to see that she really does care about these girls. Like, she doesn't want anything to happen to them. That's why she goes to bat for Becca, realizing that people have failed Becca.

[00:49:31] Maybe Lydia is part of that failure, but she's not the only part of it. It's, you know, the Gilead system failed her. But Lydia and Vidala are having this conversation about Lydia not really letting Vidala in.

[00:49:50] You know, Vidala has, at different times this season, wanted to stay in the room during discussions and wanting to be part of things and wanting to be, you know, to help, it seems like. But again, we also really couldn't tell, are you able to trust her or not? Because Gilead! The show, I think, was trying to steer us down.

[00:50:12] I mean, my expectations are subverted in this episode because it was, I thought they were hinting that there was a power struggle and that Vidala was really thinking about trying to, you know, usurp Lydia or something like that. But this episode, it seems like Lydia was thinking the same thing, just like me, and was wrong. You know, Vidala's like, come on, let's work together. And the only complaint I have about this scene is this is the confrontation between them over what happened at the stadium.

[00:50:42] And it seemed a little anticlimactic, like Vidala's like, you were willing to kill me at that stadium, but never mind. It's fine. Like, I wanted a little more drama between them about it. Well, I think there were so many other dramatic things happening that that may not have. It's kind of a big deal, though. Yeah. Yeah. But we also don't know if they had talked about it before. That's true. In a flashback. So we don't know if this has really come up. This is the first time that we got to see anything.

[00:51:12] You gotta keep bringing that up, don't you? Yeah. It's in the past. But Vidala really tries to get through to her and is like, you know, you never liked me even before. And Lydia comes back at her saying some of us had to fight for our place. And that's when Vidala is like, well, you were willing to kill me. But Vidala also says to her, you have no idea how things came to me because you never asked. And that's true.

[00:51:42] I mean, to what we know, Lydia never doesn't really know Vivian, who is Vidala. Like, what was Vivian's actual whole story? Like, what were things like for her? We know more about Lydia because we saw her in The Handmaid's Tale. And we got that other episode that gave us a flashback into her story. We don't really know other than Vivian was late one day and was supposed to bring the coffee.

[00:52:11] And that sort of mirrors June saying this similar to Daisy. You have no idea what I've been through, Missy. Exactly. I wonder if that was deliberate on the writer's perch to have those two in the same episode. It just sort of says, look, you can't assume anything about anyone about how hard life has been for them or what struggles they've had. Yeah.

[00:52:33] And Vidala wants to work with her and tells her she doesn't have to be a lone wolf because they had to come up with something to say Becca. I loved it. I mean, conflict is good for drama, but also occasionally it's nice to see people just being nice to each other. And I liked that moment where Vidala was basically just like, stop with your paranoia and let's work together.

[00:53:02] And who knows if that'll last, but for the moment, it was nice. Well, and we have to remember too, this isn't the Gilead that we, I mean, it's Gilead. Yes, but it's a different type of, or it's a different Gilead based on what happened in Boston. The things are different than they were before.

[00:53:24] I mean, they've had to change because of everything that happened in Boston with the cake and the murders and all of that. But Vidala even brings up God, you know, don't, let's not be the stranded man who rejects the plane and the boat waiting for God to save him. And that is about, that's the parable of the drowning man that he doesn't accept. Ask God for help, right? Yeah. I sent you a boat and a plane. Yeah.

[00:53:54] Why didn't you? Yeah. I sent them to help you. And, you know, Vidala said she was reminded that they're God's instruments. Well, we know who told her that, that was Agnes. Um, so now I'm really intrigued as far as how this conversation and what they did to save Becca, which is basically get her mother to take the fall, how they'll move forward next season.

[00:54:24] Like what will be their relationship? Yeah. This, this society pits women against each other. That's what they do. Sounds so familiar. We've seen it over and over again, right?

[00:54:39] And I've kind of been waiting all season for Lydia to flex these powers that I imagine she had, but she really was almost kind of powerless in this episode. And it wasn't until they all kind of came together. And they all kind of came together.

[00:55:08] You know, what's the saying? You know, one of us is a finger and five of us are a fist. Like our podcast art. And they all kind of came together. And what is it? Our podcast art. Yeah. And they all came together and that's when they found their power. And I loved that scene where Vidala offers her hand and Lydia takes it.

[00:55:36] I just, that really touched me and I really liked it. And it took like, you're right. Lydia is, she's sort of hiding out, afraid to take risks. Risks. And it took Agnes and did Daisy say something to her? And Vidala to get her to go. Okay. Daisy said, what are you going to do to save Becca? Mothers would do anything for their children, including die for them.

[00:56:06] And then next thing you know, you see Vidala and Lydia at Becca's place coaching her to say her mother killed her father. And I'm like, Daisy's like, wait, you framed Becca's mom. That's not really what I meant. But you said mothers would die for their children. That was more of a figure of speech. I thought she was talking about June there. Yeah, me too. I really did. She was talking about June. Yeah, but it seemed to have given her the idea of what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:36] That idea. Like, I was like. I think it was all they had. Gosh. Yeah, you're right. I mean, what you said at the top. I said this episode had a win. But Becca's mom was just was another woman stuck in Gilead, just like Becca. Oh, yeah. And innocent. And I mean, I don't know. I guess it's better. What happened was better than if Becca died. But it's still very tragic for sure.

[00:57:05] No, and Becca has to live with that, you know. Yeah. Like her mom's gone. And I mean, just like, look at, you know, how everybody paid for the actions of one fucking asshole guy. Yeah. Yeah. I would. I was thinking. I didn't even have to think twice. I would do that for my kids. Yeah. I would sacrifice myself. Yeah.

[00:57:35] Yeah. I mean, I have two young women. You know, my daughters are two young women. Yeah. But I would be like, can we brainstorm some other ideas first? And she knew, like Becca's mother knew as soon as they said it. She knew. It don't. Like she was never hesitated. No, she. You.

[00:58:05] But you saw her reaction. Like the actress who played that part really did such a great job. Yeah. You could tell. The stages of how it came over her when she realized exactly what it was going to cost her. And that basically she's switching places with her daughter. Yeah. And that she'll be the one that is executed. Yeah. And that to me. That feels.

[00:58:34] It's it's good. Tragic storytelling. No matter what. It's a little more apt if her father was doing something with her because then her mom might feel especially guilty about not noticing or not putting a stop to it or whatever. But either way, it's a mother saving her daughter. Yeah. Yeah. I think Daisy knew exactly what she was saying to Lydia when she was talking about what mothers would do, because Lydia said just before that.

[00:59:05] That she's always strived to be a mother to God's lost children. And then Daisy comes back with the mothers doing everything for their children. I think she wasn't only. It ended with Becca's mother paying that price, but I think it also was pushing Lydia. If you're the mother to God's lost children, won't you do anything to protect them? Like what? Why are you not doing more? Yeah.

[00:59:34] I think that's exactly what Daisy had in mind. I don't think she was saying, I think you should go frame Becca's mom at all. No, this was the only option that they had. And again, it goes back to the collateral damage that June is always talking about. Yeah. Big time. Okay. Who whose turn is it? I think it's me. I think I covered a lot.

[00:59:59] But the only other piece of that is that Judd and Weston, they all know that Becca killed the dentist. And they all know that she did it because of what he was doing to, because he was raping or molesting young girls. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:30] But they still are requiring a woman to die for this. Not because it's actually justice, because they know Becca's mother didn't do it. They know that. Regardless of her confession, they know it. But all they care about is that a woman dies. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:50] Because they can't let it be, they can't let a woman get away with killing a man, even if he was guilty and he was going to be killed. That's their job. That's the men's job to do that. Women can't take it into their own hands. So that's all they cared about. They didn't care about Becca. They don't care about Becca's mother.

[01:01:13] They just want to be able to check that box that says, you know, a woman killed a man and so we got justice. Yeah. On some level, I understand. I mean, I think right now, I don't think people should take the law into their own hands and go off being vigilantes and kill bad people in our society.

[01:01:38] But ideally, anyway, we have a more fair justice system and Gilead does not have that. So that's why I feel less judgmental of Becca for doing that. Plus, as we said before, that's what they've been teaching them and showing it to them on a regular basis. You know what I mean? I'm not really speaking to what you're saying about some women had to be killed. Yeah. And it didn't matter who it was.

[01:02:02] It didn't matter who, but I am speaking to the fact that it probably, I understand that Becca should have been punished. I understand the idea of that because she murdered somebody, but this guy was like going to be murdered anyway. He was an evil person. But that's not why they needed that justice to be metered out. They needed the justice to be metered out because it was a woman killing a man.

[01:02:30] If it had been a woman killing a woman or a man killing a man, it would have been different. They could have brushed that under the rug. They can't let a woman see that a woman killed a man and got away with it. Didn't get it. Okay. That makes sense. So if they would have framed a man for it instead, then maybe they could have let him live. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

[01:02:59] But like. Who would volunteer for that? In the land of women, they wouldn't have been able to do that. Yeah. Mm-mm. They could not risk women becoming empowered to take the law into their own hands. Yeah. And that's what, was it Weston, I think? Or was it Judd? One of them said, you know, it doesn't matter.

[01:03:26] You know, the fact that he was going to be executed anyway. It doesn't matter. Because a woman killed a man. Yep. All right. All right. What you got, Jason? Okay. Let me talk about Daisy almost getting recalled from Mayday. Okay. So Daisy demands that Garth have Mayday help Becca. And he goes, you're just going to get yourself killed and me and a lot of other Mayday operatives.

[01:03:56] And she goes, okay, by me. Which I thought, I was like, damn. And that's what gets her shipped out. And I just thought it was funny that she finally got what she wanted, but then she didn't want it anymore. Like if she'd only known, that was, I don't know how you could actually engineer that situation to try to manipulate them into getting you out.

[01:04:17] But anyway, then I liked, so he, I guess, sent her a message, be here at 10 bells, which I guess is how women tell time are able to tell time just by the bells. Then a Mayday agent puts her in, I guess, a honey drum and takes her to June, probably in Canada. Right. It's like all the traffic lights and stuff. Yeah.

[01:04:44] And she's like, you haven't been listening to your handler, you're out. And I do think it's, I mean, this show always does this to us, but it's kind of crazy how she's been trying to get Hannah out for years and they could just whisk Daisy right to her. But I don't think Agnes is ready to flee Gilead quite yet anyway. Did you, were you worried for her? I was worried for her. I thought Mayday might. I can't remember. Assassinate her. In the river or something.

[01:05:14] Because she was being reckless and, and threatening. So I was, when she got in that truck, I was really worried. Yeah. Of course, when I saw June, I knew it was going to be okay. But up until that point, I was, I was real worried about her. Yeah. We didn't know what the hell was going on. Yeah. I thought she might be in danger. Wait a minute. Just get in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, my favorite though, I think this is my favorite scene actually in the whole episode.

[01:05:42] So I'm glad I get to talk about it a little bit, but cause I loved when June realized that Daisy's hanging out with Agnes. Now we didn't know before this, that June didn't know that, but I loved when Daisy's just talking about all her friends and she goes, Agnes, Agnes McKenzie. And then I loved how Daisy described her. She's one of the bravest people I've ever met. She's beautiful and kind. She thinks she's funny, but she's not so much actually.

[01:06:10] And of course, during all of this, they're right in on Elizabeth Moss's face, which is the best thing to do. June face. Yep. June face. And we get, you know, we feel a lot just from her reaction. She's a really good person. She's the one that we all want to be like, and just feeling so much in that moment. And then June's still like, Nope, you got to go. And I thought Daisy was very June like here, trying to convince her to keep her going. I can do this. You know, I can.

[01:06:39] And, um, you know, she goes, I'm not going to let you die. You may be okay. Failing at this, like getting those little jabs in there. I'm not, it's my turn now. I might fail. I might even die. It's my choice. And, um, I, I just loved, I love Daisy more and more as the series goes along. And, um, I'm thinking here, okay, what exactly is she? She's so adamant about going back in. What specifically does she want to do?

[01:07:07] And I think on a smaller scale, it's to help Becca. But also at this point, I think she's decided that she wants to take down Gilead, you know, which is what she says she's doing at the end when she writes her that note. And she's in a good position. She's a plum. She's a plum in the most prestigious school in the country. She's hobnobbing with commander's daughters, commander's wives.

[01:07:37] She's, she's in, she's infiltrated it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and bonus for June, she's best friends with her daughter. And so June's like, all right, go ahead. And then I'm like, what's June going to say when she like walks over to the other Mayday people and like, uh, so where's the girl who was going to get a bunch of us killed then? Well, when it comes to Hannah, June, just what she going to say though.

[01:08:06] I don't know, but you know what? She's June Osborne. She'll figure out something to say. I thought it was a little bit suspension of disbelief that June wouldn't know. Hannah was there. Like what kind of reports is Garth writing? He's her guardian. Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But I, I could set that aside because I, I loved it all. Yeah.

[01:08:32] June's like, cause we, we heard Garth's nickname is the shepherd. Cause we heard June giving a message over the radio. And if they talk again, June should be like, wait, are you the fucking McKenzie's guardian? Why didn't you tell me that? I mean, we haven't even gotten names. Right. That's right. He did say that. Yes. I guess to him, it's just a, that's just a generic voice on the radio. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I guess that's.

[01:09:01] But Jason, let's not forget the best line of that whole exchange. Shunammite would cut a bitch. Yes. That was my favorite right there. Yes. Another interesting thing I'll close with on this point is when Daisy said, I'm fighting to save these girls. And June said, you can't save them yet. They don't know they need saving. And I've had that thought in the real world as pompous of that sounds.

[01:09:29] But it also makes me think of people who grew up in Iran since the, since it became a theocracy after the cultural revolution. And I just wonder like, wow, what's being fed to them? And what, how are they, you know, it's just shaping a whole generation of people. And June, like she did know that she needed saving from Gilead, but these girls are just waking up to it.

[01:09:58] And yeah, I just like that this series is about these young girls who grew up here and don't fully realize how oppressed they are, but we're seeing them wake up to it and then inspire the older generation, which I already said, I'm repeating myself. Sorry. No, I think that's good. I think June's point is kind of that she's kind of written off a lot of people as collateral damage because she feels like I can't get to them. I'm working on the future. Yeah.

[01:10:28] You know, the big scale. But, but now it's getting personal and not just because it's her daughter there, but because Daisy is on the inside track and she knows these girls, she can describe them. She can talk about them. She can tell their stories. So they're not just nameless, fameless, nameless, faceless girls anymore. I mean, I think she wants the fall of Gilead, right?

[01:10:58] That's, and one thing I noticed is the very first scene we see Agnes finding Becca's father's blood in her bathroom. And we hear her voiceover from the future saying, after it was all over, I found the coroner's report. And I think after it was all over might mean the fall of Gilead. Otherwise, how would she get her hands on the coroner's report?

[01:11:27] You know, if she just escaped and she's giving some kind of testimony in Canada or something. So I don't know. That's who knows, but that's what I hope to see. Yeah. I mean, at the minimum, I think we can say that Gilead is not like it is now and Agnes is not in it. Yeah. And they somehow are able to get their hands on record. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:58] I'm sure like when they took over Boston, they probably got lots of records and stuff like that too. Yeah. True. So it might not even be the full fall of Gilead, but that would sure be great. Yeah. Free Maryland. At least. Is California, it's already free, right? I can't remember. No, I don't think so, right? What's in, probably a wasteland, toxic wasteland. Yeah.

[01:12:28] No, that's Colorado. Or around there. I don't know. I haven't looked at the Gilead map in such a long time. I know. I haven't. I don't know. I think, but in the beginning of the last season of Handmaid Sale, it was just like Alaska and Hawaii, I thought. Mm-hmm. But now, obviously, they're up in Boston, so we know they have more territory. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:56] It says, California is highly contested, split between rebel resistance forces and largely devastated by nuclear fallout. Great. Great. Fun. Good times. That's all I had. All right. My last thing is, Agnes, it's kind of where I started the podcast.

[01:13:23] Agnes realizing who she is. Part of it, I think, started with Paula going on that tirade while she was scrubbing the floor and telling her basically that they wanted to cut you up and send you to your mother. Yeah. And your father wouldn't let them, which leads...

[01:13:50] I mean, Agnes already knew Tabitha wasn't her mother. She didn't really know who her mother was. But Paula went off... I mean, Paula just went off the deep end, period, in there scrubbing around. And I'm really... I'm really interested in what's going to happen with her now that she's gone off the deep end. Um, but later in the episode, it's actually Daisy who tells Agnes who her mother is.

[01:14:21] Agnes calls her mother a terrorist. And then Daisy has to actually explain, you know, who she is. She fights for what she believes in. Your mother wasn't just a handmaid. She was the handmaid. I think your name is Hannah. Hannah. And that's when it all clicks in her head.

[01:14:41] And Agnes goes home and gets in her little bag of treasures and finds the piece of paper that we saw her writing on during the handmaid's tale where she wrote the name Hannah. I think it's in there, you know? Yeah. It's in there.

[01:15:01] Yeah, I mean, I think she kept all the stuff that she found from pre-Gilead times because on some level, probably mostly unconscious, she feels a connection to that other world. And why she's interested in Daisy might even have something to do with that and learning about her experience.

[01:15:24] And, um, and it was really fascinating to see her respond to that information with the terrorists because that's kind of what I've been thinking that on a conscious level, she's operating from this story that she's been told about June Osborne. And, and, and here you can tell she didn't even know that that was her mother, but I think she's been told a story about her mother too.

[01:15:49] That's probably not as bad as the handmaid, but the handmaid, by the way, I was wondering, okay, what exactly does she mean by that? And I think June Osborne, it's hard to tell for sure what things would be actually known that she did, but I think angels flight, AKA the night of tears or whatever would be one of them.

[01:16:12] She also, I don't know if Gilead people would know about this, but she embarrassed Gilead on an international scale by publicly testifying in Canada about Gilead's abuses and against Fred and everything. And I think the most infamous would be when she led a bunch of handmaids to kill commanders in their sleep. So that's why she's the handmaid, I think. Also baby Nicole. Baby Nicole. I don't know if she's known for that. And I wonder if they know about Fred. Right.

[01:16:41] I, I don't know if anybody knows. Yeah. But maybe. I mean, Serena knows. I mean, publicly, you know, if. Yeah. But I'm sure they also told stories. She's like a folk hero among rebels, but a boogeyman for Agnes and all her friends. And it's just like such a mind blowing thing where all, all season long, we've seen Agnes anytime Mayday's mentioned, oh, they're terrorists. They want to kill us. She's saying that to Daisy, who's a member of Mayday.

[01:17:11] And now Daisy's actually taking a big risk telling her, I know I met your mother because Agnes might just be like traitor, you know? That's what she's. I think she knows enough to feel safe doing that. Yeah. Still a risk. It is.

[01:17:29] I liked the way the episode ended too with Agnes telling Lydia, you know, or going to Lydia and Lydia telling her that, you know, the broken engagement is a mark against her. And Agnes very boldly just stands there and says, and my lineage, my mother. And then Lydia says, I knew your mother quite well, actually.

[01:17:59] One thing I can say about her is that she never gave up and neither will we. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know. They've had their ups and downs. I liked when Daisy said, you've got a rather overdeveloped sense of justice. Do you know where that comes from? No, I do. I just wanted to talk about the scene.

[01:18:27] Just Garth in general. I have loved his character. He did such a great job. I never imagined he would become such a main character in the show, you know? And the scene between Agnes and Garth where she begs and demands and guilts him into marrying Becca. Which he does. So good on you. Yeah.

[01:18:55] Was just so endearing. And I thought they might kiss, but I'm glad they didn't because really Agnes's first thought was for Becca. And although it was tearing her up inside and she says that to him, do you know how much it's costing me to ask you this? But I just thought that scene between the two of them were really great.

[01:19:21] And you can see like Garth seems very mission focused. And, you know, if he's 100% mission focused, he wouldn't have done this. He would have done what was expected of him. What would have given him the most power. But he cares about Agnes and Becca. I mean, he's come to care about these girls. Even Daisy, I would say. Although they seem to have love-hate.

[01:19:50] And I have really enjoyed watching that kind of grow as well. And I suspect we're not done with all of that. I mean, yeah. I still want to know more about how he came to feel this way. What happened to him, you know? Yep. Yeah. There's a lot more. I feel like some questions or things were revealed. But there's a lot more. There's a lot more I'm questioning.

[01:20:19] And a lot more behind the scenes stuff I really want to know. Backstory stuff. So I want to talk about the kiss. Where Agnes visits Becca on her wedding day. Comforts her. They kiss. It seemed like Agnes initiated the kiss to me. And I found that confusing.

[01:20:47] Because I didn't think she understood that Becca liked her that way. And I don't think she's queer. I guess I was wrong, though. I think if you're going to kiss her, if she's going to kiss her, she must know that she's in love with her. Did she figure it out at some point? I thought Becca initiated. Did she? And Agnes just allowed it? Yeah. I don't think Agnes was.

[01:21:17] Didn't seem to be kissing her back. But. But accepted it, you know? Yeah. Okay. Because she loves Becca. But yes, I do think if she didn't know before, she's. She knows now. She knows it. Yeah. And I think there's a part of her that had to have known a little. You would think so. I mean. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just.

[01:21:39] There's so much judgment against gayness that it's your instincts have to override that, you know? And they did for her in the moment. And I was also thinking about how in the world of Gilead, you have zero connection. You don't. Boys and girls don't spend any time around each other.

[01:22:03] So the only people that they really can get to feel close to are people of their own gender. So I could see a lot of these intimate moments spilling into something like that. Because especially when you're a teenager, you got all these hormones, you're, you know, wanting to connect that way. Yeah. But I think it was more, it was more just throwing Becca a lifeline. Yeah.

[01:22:32] Than, than anything else, you know? Yeah. And another little quote, Matea Conforti plays Becca told TV Insider for Becca. We originally discussed how Becca would initiate going first for the kiss. And then Agnes would understand where she's coming from and meet her halfway as an act of, I support you. I'm here for you. I accept you. And I love you.

[01:22:56] But once that kiss happens, Becca is the first to pull away as an act of saying, thank you for being my friend. The kiss is more so a way of concluding their friendship and what they have had together in their relationship. Obviously Becca would want so much more of a life with Agnes, but this is the closest that she'll ever get. And Agnes is aware of that too. It doesn't play into the fantasy that Becca wants, but is giving her the opportunity that she has so desired.

[01:23:22] So maybe if you saw the light come out of her face right after the kiss, that might've been part of it. If she was just thinking, well, that's the last time anything like that's ever going to happen between us. First and last. Yeah. Yeah. As I'm going to go marry this dude now. Yep. The dude that you're in love with. Yeah. Let's not forget. I mean. Yeah. Right. It's a soap opera. That's very soap opera.

[01:23:52] I mean, how many times has that happened in a soap opera? Every episode. And it regurgitates itself. But the way that this was done was, I mean, it's just more. Powerful. Yeah. It was much more powerful. So beautiful and heartbreaking and everything all at once. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so well done. That's this whole show. Yeah. Honestly.

[01:24:21] They make us feel. I don't mind that the last two episodes were shorter because this episode being longer. The way everything was presented. It was perfect. So I felt like I had been through something after that. Yeah. Watch. Yeah. I have one more point. It's called The Future, which we see June on her doorstep getting this message from Daisy. And my thought was, where's Luke? Is he inside baking?

[01:24:52] Or something? I hope so. I think we're going to see him on the show by the time it's over. I think so. Yeah. I think we will. Or hear his voice. I think we got Stephen Colbert again. Was it Stephen Colbert? Okay. Yeah. I think it was his voice initially. Don't say Colbert. Just kidding. What is it? Well, he just ended his line on the show. Yeah. Which is great that he's been doing this. I love hearing it. Me too. Yeah.

[01:25:20] He's writing a Lord of the Rings movie, by the way. It's pretty cool. Really? Mm-hmm. He's a big fan. Oh, that's cool. So. Maybe Brian would like that. Hopefully. So he. I was going to talk more about that, but it's not relevant. So he. So anyway, she gets this note. June gets this note from Daisy. It says the girls are strong and we're going to destroy Gilead with what it values most.

[01:25:47] Everything you were saying earlier, Daphne. I just think that that's the future of the show, that they're going to fight to destroy Gilead. And I. I. I'm excited about that. Yeah. And it's good to see the girls working together and supporting each other in this episode. And they made a difference because Agnes and Daisy convinced Vidala and Lydia to help Becca.

[01:26:16] And that wouldn't have been possible if Agnes hadn't gotten Weston to spring Becca from prison so they could tell her the plan. And then Agnes got Garth to marry Becca so she'd have a decent life. That's why I think it's a win because they saved their friend. But yes, it was at a great cost. It was expensive. Very expensive.

[01:26:39] But it left them with this feeling of we did something against the injustice of Gilead and a feeling that they want to keep fighting with that great shot at the end of Shunammite. Holda was in there, right? And Agnes. No, just Shunammite and Daisy. And Agnes. Yeah. It's like out of a Tarantino movie or something. Because Holda would have gotten married. Oh, yeah. And it was a reflection from the first episode where.

[01:27:04] Becca and Agnes were kind of pinky linking, you know, and that was like their little quiet way of touching each other because they're that's frowned upon. And and so we see the three girls doing that. I liked that.

[01:27:21] I will say that when and if Shunammite finds out who Agnes's mother is, that may cause some friction because remember Shunammite's brother was on the angel flight. Yeah. So I think that that may cause some friction. That was a seed planted for maybe season two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:27:46] And the only thing I have that I want to point out is there was a little girl playing outside June's house and looked like she could have been the right about age of a certain other daughter. I'm sure it was. Yeah. Yeah. I went back and watched that a second time and I convinced myself that June didn't know that person. I don't know.

[01:28:13] When she walked out the door, she walked out by herself with a backpack like she was going somewhere. I don't know. I have to watch it again. Just that part, Wendy. I remember seeing something on the feedback about it. So I specifically watched it, but I just talked myself out of it, I guess. Daphne, I can't believe we haven't talked about Paula. Well, I did say Paula had a breakdown.

[01:28:40] You know, I know Paula's a shit, but I almost felt sorry for her that she had herself in such a state. Over who her stepdaughter is going to marry. Like, like, you know, like, you know what that reminded me of? That, that bathroom scrubbing the floor thing. Mommy dearest. No, I was going to say no. Yes. Yeah.

[01:29:09] I mean, she was mean. She was mean. Yeah. And she's like telling her, guess what? They were going to cut you up and send pieces of you to June and you're ungrateful. Yeah. And also, like, you, if you got sexually assaulted, then that would ruin your marriage prospects. So, phooey on you. I mean, just like everything bad. Yeah. It was like venom. Yeah. It was venom. I don't know. And I, I.

[01:29:39] Why was she so invested? That's what I was just going to say. I know. I don't totally get why she cares so much. She might be a villain in season two, maybe. I wouldn't be surprised. She's got villain written all over her. And like, kudos to Mackenzie, who seems like he spent most of his life protecting his daughter. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I don't think he was that upset. He definitely didn't seem upset with Agnes. I think he was offended. Yeah.

[01:30:09] For his daughter. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, he wasn't upset with her. I think, honestly, I think part of him was probably relieved. Didn't he say something that he didn't really like the guy anyway or something? I forget. He said, I have a nerve. I go up and, you know, throttle him or something like that. Yeah. Drag him in front of a committee or something. Yeah. Better not to. Let's not poke the bail. Let's not. No.

[01:30:38] Let's leave it alone. She dodged a huge bullet. But my only note is I like how when she asks what's happening with Becca, like, come on, you guys tell me. And Daisy says, it's none of your blessed business. That's code for it's none of your fucking business. And then Shunammite is like so frustrated knowing something happened, but not knowing what.

[01:31:00] And I just, that got me thinking about how with her character, the series spent all this time early on establishing what was important to her, like being in the know about things, like being mature and knowing the ways of everything. And advancing in Gilead society. And then it just took those things away from her, like no, no period, her friends hiding big things from her.

[01:31:23] And then, and I mean, the interesting thing about that is then you get to see what her character is like without these sort of superficial things. Well, I mean, she, she, she, she didn't believe Daisy swim up. Let's not forget that. Yeah. But you could see how upset she was for her friends. Right.

[01:31:47] Like she was really, you know, she, she's also like taking huge risks by being a part of all of this. And she's in there helping in this one. When Daisy said, make an excuse for me. She said, we'll tell him that you had cramps go, you know, like they're all together. Fast thinker. Yeah. And she's been doing that though, right back when they had the ball and Becca was intoxicated.

[01:32:13] Like she, she helped her get to Daisy and then she slapped that girl and ended up getting punished. And I mean, she's, she has stepped up and in the beginning, the way she was presented,

[01:32:32] I didn't think she would be the one to step up as much as she has because she seemed to be thinking about this pious track she was on and wanting to have the biggest house and cars and all the material things. Yeah. I think we've seen her grow past it. Yeah. Which is nice. Maybe. We'll see. Maybe if she gets her period, she'll be like, yes. Yes.

[01:33:02] See you later, bitches. Where's my Mercedes? Maybe. Maybe. Do you have anything else, Wendy? No, I had like a real world parallel I wanted to talk about at some point. You want me to talk about it now? Yeah. Or you want to wait until after? I think now's a great time.

[01:33:20] Um, so something that really made me think about, you know, the purity culture that we see going on in Gilead and. You know, the girls are a thousand percent responsible for their own purity, regardless of what anybody around them does. And there's a lot of that in America now.

[01:33:45] Um, and I watched the Elizabeth Smart Netflix. It's like a one hour show. And this was one that was endorsed by the family and Elizabeth and her family. Um, her father and her sister actually talk on the documentary. And Elizabeth said, you know, she grew up in, um, Utah. She grew up in, um, a very religious family. Mormons. Who are you talking about?

[01:34:14] Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth Smart. Who's that? This is the girl who was kidnapped for nine months. Oh. By religious extremists. Oh my God. And what she said, she said she was kidnapped when she was 14. Very young, very sheltered. Um, and she said that she had a lot of lessons in her religion, in her life, in her family about not to have sex before marriage.

[01:34:42] But no one had ever discussed with her about consensual versus non-consensual sex about rape. And this is like her exact words that she said in the documentary. She said that after she was raped, she felt a lot of shame. She felt dirty. She said, I thought that if my family had known what had happened to me, they wouldn't want me back. And maybe it would be better if they never find me.

[01:35:11] And when she was, you know, a lot of people say she was 14. At times she was, you know, was left unfettered. Why didn't she escape? Why didn't she try to, you know, get free? And when she was finally found, she said that she was sitting in the police station waiting for her parents to come.

[01:35:33] And she thought for sure when they came, they were going to yell at her that they were going to be ashamed of her, that she was going to be in trouble. And when they came, and this is no criticism of her poor family who went through hell and tried everything to get her back. And really their persistence is probably why she was ended up saved. But, you know, when they came and were so ecstatic to have her back and hugged her, she was shocked at that.

[01:36:03] And I just think, like, that's a real world example of how harmful this purity culture can be. If we're not, like, I think it's fine to talk about sex and the ramifications of sex and the advantages of maybe not having sex till you're ready. But you gotta, you gotta talk about the real world when you talk about those things with your children. Like, there are predators everywhere and sometimes they're in your own family.

[01:36:33] And you can't just live in a bubble where you pretend that doesn't exist. You have to prepare your children. Boys and girls. Mm-hmm. But that just, like, hit me while I was watching that and I, like, thought immediately of the Handmaid's Tale.

[01:36:48] All right.

[01:37:30] Well, let's move on to some news. Okay. I just had, well, Daphne sent me an article with Bruce Miller of being interviewed by a Hollywood reporter. And I'm going to read from it. Actually, do you want to, we can all just take turns reading Q&A. Sure. So it's not just me. It's kind of spoilery about Bruce Miller's intentions for the future of the series. I was super entertained reading it.

[01:38:00] But if you just don't like having any spoilers, then you should not listen to this part, just so you know. Okay, I'm going to leave. I liked it. I thought it was a fantastic article because it, yes, it's a little spoilery. Just want to warn people who are, like, more spoiler sensitive. But I think, yeah, you'll enjoy it. It's broad. I think it feels, it seems broad to me. Like, his ideas. So I like it. Okay, I'll start. It says, where are you now in the process of making season two?

[01:38:28] He says, we're very excited and deep into figuring out what to do for season two. The writer's room has been working for a while. Our younger actresses are younger. And no matter how much money you put into it, they're not going to stay younger. Time does go on. And we very much want to stay on track to make this show as regularly as possible. I think our cast is astonishing, and I want to make sure we use them while they fit the part. So I'm hoping that means we get a season a year. That'd be cool.

[01:38:57] Yeah, agreed. I can do the next one. Are you toying with picking up right where you left off or jumping ahead? I always have plans to jump far ahead, and then I never do. And I think it's because I'm always wondering, well, what happened in the interim time? Thank you, Bruce. Thank you. Because that's how I feel too. With The Handmaid's Tale, you want to see every single thing June saw, so it didn't ever work to jump ahead. But I have designs and desires to jump ahead a little bit.

[01:39:26] Maybe someday, some season I'll be able to. But 30 seconds later has been my usual. I've started with designs of 30 years later, and then it's been 30 seconds. That's funny. There was a time jump in between the two series of four or five years or whatever it was. Four years. So now I think just from reading that, that that was hard for him to do. Yeah. I don't blame him.

[01:39:50] I mean, he's built out this world of Margaret Atwood's. And I totally can see not wanting to move ahead and wanting to stick in because that's how I am. It's worked well. I want to know. Yeah. This has been successful. You really set up a second season and beyond with this finale. Of course, you can never know for sure if you're getting picked up.

[01:40:20] But how confident were you when writing this sequel series that you would get renewed? And do you have a multi-season plan you're willing to share? Well, you know how TV works. They decide on the number. But I have to plan out. I don't think this particular story would be satisfying if it just faded away like other shows that get canceled in the off-season. But I do have a tidbit to tell you, which is that I am planning to get June and Hannah Agnes together by the end.

[01:40:48] So if you think about that, I have a three or four seasons since. But I know that if things go well and we have story to tell, I certainly can move that reunion forward. You never want to tread water. But in Gilead, there's so much going on and it's so complicated and these actors are so good that it really does not feel like the difference between three and four seasons would be that difficult for us to put our heads around. I want five.

[01:41:19] So, I mean, that's a big thing. He says he's planning to get them together. I am not surprised by that, but it's one thing to think it'll probably happen and another thing to hear it from the showrunner. And I'm happy to hear it. I mean, I just figured. Right. I don't think that's a spoiler. That has to happen. I mean, there would be some like sadistic, creative people who would be like, no, we're going to leave them wanting. Or something, you know, I don't know.

[01:41:49] I mean, I think you're right. Yeah, we would expect it. We'd be mad if it didn't happen. They go on. Can't the show also keep going even after you finally reunite June and Hannah? He says, oh, absolutely. My daughter hates movies and books that end with people kissing. You're like, I waited the whole time to see what they were like together as a couple. And all I saw was one kiss and it ended. So even if you get just a little sense of how June and Hannah would be, think about all these women who are going to be together then. It's not just June and Hannah.

[01:42:18] It's not even just June and Luke and Agnes. But Nicole is also there. Nicole has a new big sister she's never met. And Agnes has a little sister. And then there's Moira who helped raise Hannah. Agnes has a whole community, a whole family outside of Gilead. So there's so much afterwards to tell about how that happens and how Hannah gets integrated. In some ways, the show is a refugee show. The people we're seeing are either pre-refugees or refugees. The Testaments girls are now pre-refugees.

[01:42:46] But once they become post-war and are trying to rebuild America after Gilead, that's interesting stuff. I don't think I would have trouble coming up with stories about that. So that's way in the future. But I love that he's invoking all these names. I mean, that almost sounds like it's just more seasons of The Handmaid's Tale at that point. If we see Moira and Luke and everybody.

[01:43:12] I just spoke with Elizabeth Moss and she said you are figuring out what her role will look like for season two. And if we'll see her similarly to how we saw her in season one. What are your plans for how June will factor into season two? Well, you know how I feel about Lizzie. I would have her just be there all the time if I could manage it. I love to have her in the show. And what we tried to do was to be practical and flexible in terms of her time. She's a very busy woman. And there's a lot of practicality in terms of the schedule.

[01:43:42] But she is such a huge part of the show and the book. She's this force operating outside. She's almost the overlord of the whole universe. She is so much of the story. How much we see her is a question of how much we can get her. But how much is she involved in the story and how much is she out there influencing Agnes's life? She's the lover puller in this particular story.

[01:44:09] She's in a show on Apple called Imperfect Women. I think it's on Apple. Yeah. I don't know. I don't even know what it's about. It's got some good casting. I don't know anything else about it. Kerry Washington, Joel Kinnaman. Yeah. You already said you will get June and Hannah together at some point in the Testaments. What do you say now to viewers who wanted that reunion by the finale? That's the point. You want to see them together.

[01:44:37] That's what makes you watch the next one. I didn't think we were going to get that in the finale. I love that answer. He says, was the kiss, I mean, they ask, was the kiss between Becca and Agnes in the finale a goodbye to an era they know they'll never have again? Was it exploring deeper feelings they'd never acknowledged? How will it change their relationship for season two? He says, I don't know that it'll change their relationship. It's more of a recognition and an honesty between the two friends about where they are.

[01:45:05] I think it was Agnes being kind to her sad friend, Becca. She was being comforting and lovely. There's a lot of meaning in that kiss. Who leans in? Who holds it? Who smiles afterwards? How do they smile? I think they did it beautifully. I don't want to tell people what I felt it was, but I think you could follow their thinking through with both of these characters. And it's so wonderfully complicated because in Gilead, their friendship is so strong. It probably feels much stronger than romantic love. The men around them, they barely talk to.

[01:45:34] But all these women are so close that you can understand why when Becca imagines being married, she can't imagine spending that much time with a man. And, you know, I always do this. I totally stole. I was saying similar when we were talking about the episode. I stole it from Bruce Miller. He goes, she doesn't have the experience, but she can't even imagine spending the time. With the kiss, Mike Barker was directing the finale, but those two women, the actors, worked it out themselves.

[01:46:01] I wouldn't have shown it unless it really said something about their characters and what kind of love they have for each other, which is enormous. There's more to that interview. I'll put a link in the show notes if you guys want to read it. Yeah, that's kind of how I saw it is it was like a recognition. I don't think Agnes has romantic feelings for Becca. I don't either. But she loves Becca. Look what she did for Becca.

[01:46:30] I did consider that the first time I watched it because I was surprised by the kiss and thought, oh, wow. What if Agnes is having a realization about her sexuality? How would that change the story? And that could have been interesting. Yeah. But you're right. I don't think that's what it was. Agnes loves Garth. Clearly.

[01:47:10] All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. As we mentioned, we will be doing feedback in a separate episode. So that will be coming soon. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And this show's over, so maybe you need another show. And we podcast about a lot of them. So if you do go to podcastica.com, maybe check some of those out.

[01:47:40] I was trying to think. People who like The Testaments, what other shows that we cover would they really? House of the Dragon. House of the Dragon. I mean, I feel like only masochists are watching House of the Dragon at this point. It's a lot of suffering going on on that show. That's Dragon Cast. And they also cover at Wendy's on that.

[01:48:08] And they cover A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which I thought was just delightful. Which is the antidote to House of the Dragon. I do White Lotus. Welcome to the White Lotus with my wife, Jenny, and our friend, Randy. And I think we have the number one White Lotus podcast, which is pretty cool. But we just love covering that show. That's a great one. Yeah. When's the next season coming out? I don't know. I think they're filming it right now. Helena Bonham Carter filmed like a week or two. And then she left the production.

[01:48:38] And they got Laura Dern in instead. I was kind of bummed because I wanted to see her. But I guess it just didn't work out for some reason. Yeah. I like her. Me too. I like Laura Dern too. I loved Big Little Lies. Love it. I think I heard Inklings about them doing another Big Little Lies. Yeah. Well, she was in a show called Enlightened, which Mike White, who heads up White Lotus, also did on HBO before White Lotus. And she was really good in that.

[01:49:07] So I think he was like, oh shit, my lead actress left. Who can I get? Yeah. Hopefully it'll be good. It'll be in France. Yeah. Set in France. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Blessed are those who thirst for justice, for they shall be satisfied.

[01:49:25] We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026.

[01:49:59] Enter How To, the longstanding advice show and Ambie Award-nominated Best Personal Growth podcast that's back with new episodes and a new host. Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert. You know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions. You've got questions.

[01:50:28] We'll find the experts and the answers. So follow How To with Mike Peska wherever you get podcasts. Have you ever asked yourself, can the president really do that? Or wondered if there was too much money in political campaigns? Then check out the new season of You Might Be Right, hosted by us, former Tennessee governors Phil Bredesen and Bill Haslam. We're back for a brand new season now, and You Might Be Right cements the idea that constructive disagreement can lead to real problem solving.

[01:50:53] This season, we're going to dig into the role of the National Guard, AI regulation, and a lot more. New episodes drop every other week. Follow You Might Be Right wherever you get your podcasts.