The Testaments S1E6-8 Listener Feedback

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[00:00:30] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica! Hey everybody! Welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason.

[00:01:00] And this is the Handmaid's Tale Podcast, The Testaments Edition. This week, we're sharing your feedback from the last few episodes of The Testaments in this bonus podcast that you're getting. How many pages of feedback did you say we had? 23. Oh my God! On font 11, I just want to say. And I minimized all the spacing as well. Oh boy.

[00:01:28] So we don't know how long this podcast is going to be, but you can look down and see that it's four hours. I don't know if that's a joke. Thank you so much, by the way. We very much love that people want to engage. It's very, very cool. We are blessed. And I'm actually kind of excited. We got at least a couple of naysayers in this one. And I feel like that makes it interesting. So I'm excited to respond to that stuff too.

[00:01:54] Well, let's go ahead and kick it off with a call from Sherry. Hi team. This is Sherry. I'm calling to you from New Jersey. I am a Jewish American and I am a lifelong Democrat. I just watched episode six and it was, as you said, masterful.

[00:02:17] Um, I'm about to listen to your podcast and I would like to hear how absolutely reminiscent, almost identical the stadium scenes were to the Holocaust.

[00:02:38] I have a feeling you're going to talk a lot about ice and Trump and powerlessness, which is appropriate. But as a Jewish American, I really want to hear you reflecting on how this impacts us and everything that's going on in America with antisemitism.

[00:03:01] I want to feel validated that you're thinking about us as well as groups of color. Yeah, we did mention that. You did. I forget. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. She sent that in before she heard the episode. I feel like it was straight, straight out of the pictures that we have from the concentration camps and the train depots. Absolutely. It felt straight out of that.

[00:03:28] And I think antisemitism is probably something that we haven't talked a lot about on the podcast. And I think it's a bad place in the U.S. right now because you can be anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic. And I think I used to work for a Jewish organization, so I have a lot of good friends.

[00:03:54] It's kind of that we stayed in touch and many of them are Jewish and they are against what's happening in the U.S. today. And to some extent against what's, you know, the tactics that Israel has been escalating lately. Many Israelis in Israel are protesting what Israel is doing. So I love that you just said you can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic.

[00:04:23] I don't know if that's what Sherry would like to hear, but that's how I feel. And I do think it's important to focus on the anti-Semitic part and not just bring Israel into it. But it's all part of the conversation. And I think there's probably some people who get all of that. I want to say confused, but it's not confusion. It's wrong. You know, who get that wrong and may take their frustrations out on Jewish people, which is wrong.

[00:04:53] Absolutely. Okay. I have the first message to read here from Maggie Rapucci says, What was the foreshadowing of Holda's?

[00:05:22] Oh, Agnes's vision. Oh, that. Oh yeah. Yeah. That you were worried about. Lydia is going to murder that dentist unless Daisy gets to him first. Garth's father in Boston was made able to poison him during the time of the battle. That's what it seemed like. Yeah. Do we think he was there for the wedding? I wonder about that. I think the cake just knocked them all out. So they could be killed. Yeah. I was wondering if that was the same thing, but I think not. I hadn't thought about it.

[00:05:51] It was an assassination attempt is the way they put it. So that's different. Cassie brought that up to me too. Yeah. I'm not sure. Cause yeah, the, everyone else that got sedated with the cake didn't end up in a wheelchair because of that. The idea was it would just make them vulnerable to attack from the handmaids. I get, that's what I get out of it. She goes on Daisy in her period, big feelings from shoe shoes, brother on angel flight. Lots to unpack there. I know this isn't in the cards, but I'd love to see Garth and Becca as a mayday commander

[00:06:21] and wife duo. I need to know how a commander's son turned out to be mayday. Me too. When Garth said that thing about his father fighting on the wrong side, I wondered if the father had turned at some point before the battle, but was stuck fighting for Gilead. Maybe, but my sense was just Garth thought it was the wrong side. The voiceover of this episode from future Agnes is both reassuring and frustrating. As we watched her wedding plans progress, I want to know how and when things turn for

[00:06:48] her cannot wait for the penultimate episode next week at it to add handmade still a thing. I wasn't sure after Boston, it sounds like maybe if you have a child in the house, you don't have one, or maybe Paula just didn't want one yet. I mean, with, so we haven't really said this directly on the podcast, but there's so many older commanders without wives that, you know, listeners are even saying they're suspicious

[00:07:15] of if your young wife doesn't have a child, then maybe you will kill her somehow. And, um, so I wouldn't be surprised if Paula's seeing that and being like, uh, how about a handmaid? Yeah. Also, it seems like Paula's not a young girl. She's older. So I wonder how that happened. Yeah.

[00:07:41] And maybe she's already been with somebody and didn't have any children. So, I mean, I could see her being a black widow of some kind, like poisoning. I mean, come on. Let's think about Paula and how she is. And how Mackenzie at least seems, Commander Mackenzie seems like decent as far as commanders go. Yeah. It's crazy the scale of what's decent and what isn't as far as Gilead commanders.

[00:08:11] Tina Marie Groskritz says, I'm enjoying the show and seeing what it was like for the children. I think most of the girls were stolen from their families. Maybe they couldn't get Becca because she was at school. Maybe her brother was a lot younger and being cared for by the Martha. I think she might mean Shunammites. It is sickening how, as soon as the girl gets her period, she is then forced to get married. They could at least pair them with someone close to their age instead of some dirty old man.

[00:08:40] I shouldn't be shocked by Gilead doing this since they are so horrible in general. I wonder how old Agnes slash Hannah is when she finally escapes. I look forward to seeing her reunited with June. I don't want the show to end too quickly either. Yeah. That's the thing about the show. Like you want a happy resolution, but as long as the show goes on, the things aren't going to be happy, not until the end. And that you just kind of hope.

[00:09:10] Yeah. All right. Julie and DuPont Turpin says this episode made me realize that when they mentioned rapists, when talking about why people were executed, these girls have zero idea what that even means. That's true. Yeah. Nicole Cavallo Edwards says, and shoes brother or quote brother was on the angel flights.

[00:09:36] I love the world building alternative name given as the night of tears. Yeah. Yeah. Barbara Gonzalez dances says I was gutted when I realized I would have to wait a whole week before I find out what happens to Dr. Slime hands DDF. It seems like Agnes is being pushed into a situation where agency is going to be her only way out. I fear for hold up, but can't wait for more amazing acting.

[00:10:05] Still worried about the pearl they tore away instead of Daisy. I'm surprised they didn't make an example out of her. We need more backstory on Garth. 100% agree. Love the podcast really helps me digest all these things. Thank you, Barbara. Yeah. We should only refer to him as Dr. Slime hands from here on out. Yeah. DDF. I like that. I'm kind of, yeah, I'm surprised too, that they didn't make an example out of the pearl

[00:10:33] girl, but it's equally, maybe equally chilling when someone just disappears and you don't know what happened to them. I mean, that seems so much like Gestapo. Yeah. Like that was happening. People would disappear and you'd never see them again. It's happening in the U S. Yeah, it is. All right. Emily Ballinger says, I want to know what Weston's game is. He's acting nice to Agnes and helping her stand up to Paula.

[00:11:01] But why does he enjoy pulling the rug out after making women and girls feel safe? Yeah, I think that's it. Mm hmm. It will see, but that's my guess. To Cara Renee says, has anyone mentioned Agnes and her emotional eyelid flutters just like June? I know that has to be intentional. I just haven't heard anyone reference it. Well, I hadn't thought about it consciously until you mentioned it, but yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:29] I think we've talked about what we thought was daisies like June face, but we really haven't mentioned Agnes and how she has those mannerisms. Mm hmm. She's pretty good at it to chase infinity. Yeah. Matt King says the scenes with Daisy explaining sex to shoe was a welcome light moment among some very dark bits. The dentist needs all his teeth punching out the wretched perv.

[00:11:55] I'm Lydia should insist that all girls are chaperoned at these appointments that would cramp his style, but ideally he would be hanging on the wall where he deserves. Hmm. I like that. A little karma for the dentist. The dentist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our next call is from Archmaester Runny. Hi, Runny. Hi. You mentioned in the last podcast, the names of the ants and the fact that some of them might come from products.

[00:12:23] That's actually from the novel. And this is the passage. There was an approved list of names put together by Aunt Lydia and the other senior aunts. Becca said the names were made from the names of products women had liked once and would be reassured by, but she herself did not know what these products were. Nobody our age knew, she said.

[00:12:47] And the two names that they mentioned in that passage are Maybelline and Ivory. Elsewhere in the novel, we meet ants named Estée, Dove and Immortelle. Those are all skin products. Also Gabbana and Sarah Lee and Betty.

[00:13:11] Betty presumably being Betty Crocker since she's introduced in the context with Sarah Lee. The four aunts named Lydia, Elizabeth, Helena and Vidala are the four founders. And in the book, they're all the oldest aunts. So they seem to have names that are regular names, although there is Elizabeth Arden and Helena Rubinstein.

[00:13:39] So maybe Elizabeth and Helena were their original names and maybe they weren't hard to know. So what Becca says is that those names were chosen by Aunt Lydia because women would feel comfortable with those products. But I don't think that would be the reason. I think it's an act of subversion on Lydia's part to name the aunts after these luxury, mostly

[00:14:08] beauty products. I guess Sarah Lee and Betty Crocker are an exception to that. But that's all the book. And as we know, the book and the show are not the same. That's great. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I hope there's more color on why she did that in the show. Amber Lovo says, this episode was fantastic.

[00:14:37] It was so far off from the book that I actually liked it more than previous episodes. This love tangle thing with Agnes, Daisy and Garth and add Becca into the mix. Absolutely wild. Absolutely wild. Though even with mature subject matter of Gilead, the Testaments is feeling a little high school drama-y. It's adding some lighter drama to the dark chaos. I can't wait to find out what Daisy is going to do and Aunt Lydia.

[00:15:05] What are they going to do about this Dr. Grove thing? And honestly, I don't even have any predictions for the rest of the show. It's so unpredictable. Who knows what's going to happen next? It's very high school drama-y and that's totally fine with me. I was a huge fan of 90210 and it's weird because it's also still an important show like The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:15:35] There's a lot of disturbing things because it's Gilead, but it does have that sort of coming of age and even high school, you know, with mean girls and gossip and love triangles and all that. It's all there. Jennifer Ringham says, why would Shuna might say that 68 children were taken when it was 86? A mistake or deliberate? Hmm. I would say mistake, right?

[00:16:01] She just, the numbers gotten mixed up or something, or maybe the writers made a mistake. I don't know why she would deliberately say the wrong number. Hmm. Uh, also Commander Mackenzie's recast is throwing me off. Not because of looks, just because he seemed way more cold hearted in The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:16:21] I think that's why they recast him because the actor who played him had, could do that vibe of sinisterness, but they wanted someone who could do the more gentle vibe. I keep thinking about June's reaction when she saw Hannah on screens at Waterford's funeral. Oh, that was such a great moment. She just kept asking, what was that color? Yeah. And when she learns that plum means training for marriage, it terrifies her and she vows to kill Serena Joy.

[00:16:49] It breaks my heart that all of June's worst fears are coming true from the sexual harassment to marriage. I wonder if Garth is not his parents' biological son. Maybe he's part of Mayday because he, like Hannah, was taken from his real parents during the fall of America and his parents ended up on the wall or as a handmaid and he wants to help honor them. Well, there's a theory. There is a great theory. NYC Strong says, so disappointed your commentary was so left this week.

[00:17:18] I had to abandon your podcast. It is so disappointing that your own beliefs equate our leadership to Gilead. That is why you don't see some of us in the polling because, in my opinion, the left is more judgmental than the right. Pointing shame at any of us who don't agree as women. I am a middleist in many ways. You lose listeners who don't agree with your own commentary.

[00:17:43] For example, AOC and Mom Donnie are arguably the worst things to happen to New York. And I know because I live here. It is simply going sour due to lack of balance. And the idealism is running our city into crime infested poverty and gentrification in our boroughs. I love the Testaments and I like the insight but refuse to be shamed about a small minded, one sided political conversation.

[00:18:07] You probably won't acknowledge my email, which is what I expect because you don't agree with my side of the opinion, which in turn makes it the same story as sitting across the table with Aunt Lydia. We should discuss rather what this means to women and classism, a more enticing and inclusive story. Furthermore, I would say the shame in our culture is the way women have normalized sex working in shows like Euphoria. This takes us backwards.

[00:18:33] We need to demand equal rights, equal pay and freedom to speak up for being objectified in TV and the culture. Just my humble opinion and felt I had to speak up. You just lost a loyal listener and my see strong. Well, I don't really know much about exactly what AOC and Mom Donnie are doing in New York.

[00:18:57] And really, that's not we're we're not really talking about them on this podcast where I'm pretty focused on Trump and his administration, who I think is the most corrupt administration in in U.S. history and their actions have pushed the U.S. towards state sanctioned religious nationalism.

[00:19:18] And they acted from the playbook project 2025, which was written by a bunch of Trump's own administration officials and secretaries. And that explicitly detailed how to subvert government institutions to enforce a far right Christian agenda on the country. We all, I think, believe in freedom of religion and the freedom to practice no religion. And so freedom is the key there.

[00:19:46] Margaret Atwood wrote the Handmaid's Tale and the Testaments as a warning and a wake up call for the kinds of things that are happening in our country right now. She said of the Trump administration, we're not living in Gilead yet, but there are Gilead like symptoms going on. She talks about like attacks on freedom of the press, erosion of reproductive rights, misogyny, sexual. I mean, some of the things that you're talking about.

[00:20:11] She she's talked about undermining the judiciary, just authoritarian tendencies, shooting protesters, taking over independent media. And that's all we're talking about. And you can dislike us for saying it and stop listening to the podcast. But it's the same thing that the author of these stories is saying. She also said if Hillary Clinton had won in 2016, the conversations around the book would be, quote, look what you narrowly avoided.

[00:20:38] So we're just looking at how state power is used to strip bodily autonomy away from women, especially women without power in our country, without the financial means to escape it. And that's, I think, a direct discussion about classes and what you mentioned.

[00:20:58] So, you know, yeah, we do probably air into, you know, most people who are listening agree with us and we could just sort of have this be a cathartic God fuck those guys. And that turns into shaming. But, you know, that's probably not helpful if there are people listening like you who are kind of on the fence about it.

[00:21:23] But I think there's definitely intelligent arguments to be made of why this show is a good lens to look at our country through and try to stop our country from getting closer and closer to the world of Gilead, which we all three of us believe has happened in a major way over the last several years. Yeah, I'm really have been a middle list most of my life.

[00:21:50] I live in ultra blue Maryland and I'm not happy with my state government in a lot of ways. Fiscal responsibility is not good here. But when you weigh that against, you know, prison sentences for women getting an abortion and $10,000 bonuses for people that turn in their neighbors.

[00:22:17] And, you know, we just had a bill in Oklahoma pass just in the last couple of days that makes it illegal for 15 year olds to marry 50 year olds and 37 Republicans voted against that. To me. That's going to trump state and local politics like the sweeping national erosion of freedom of rights.

[00:22:47] That's I'm going to I got to go with that, you know, but I'm not happy with things that Democrats do. I think it's fine for us to have disagreements about what is moral or what's culturally appropriate. But when you get into, OK, let's have the government control all of that, then that's where I'm going to disagree. We're about freedom and freedom means that people are going going to do some things that other people aren't going to like.

[00:23:14] Because if freedom didn't mean that, then we wouldn't even need the word. We would all just do. We would all like what everyone does and we wouldn't even need to talk about freedom. There's no freedom unless someone doesn't like it, basically. You know, so there's some things that I'm not going to agree with you about about what's appropriate. And that's, you know, we sort of debate that or, you know, just we don't legislate it necessarily. I don't know.

[00:23:43] Maybe the pilgrims left England in 1620 to come here to escape religious persecution for being forced to conform to the Church of England. Mm-hmm. And so I always think of that when I read about more and more push toward religious education in schools and pushing everyone into this box of, well, you've got to be a Christian. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:12] And denouncing other religions. That was one of the reasons why this country was founded. And so I have an issue with that. It doesn't mean that I don't believe in God. I just don't believe that people should be forced or put into a category or forced to believe something that isn't. Right. Right.

[00:24:37] Should we make Muslim and Hindu children say the, you know, the- No. The commandments every day? No. No more than we should make Christian children read from the Koran. Right. I, you know, that's a freedom. Like, we wanted- That's why this- One of the reasons this country even exists now is because of escaping religious persecution. Mm-hmm. So-

[00:25:04] I mean, if you can win people over to Christianity through persuasion, more power to you. Right. But I don't believe that- I- Shouldn't be state-sanctioned. No. Definitely not. And it seems like it's moving in that direction where there's going to be- It might not seem like it today, okay?

[00:25:30] The thing is, a lot of stuff has been eroded in the last year and a half, and it just continues to go back to or look like something from the 1950s. And that might have been a good time for some people, but it wasn't a good time for everyone. And so, prospering as a nation means prospering as a people. It doesn't matter what color of your skin is or what your religious beliefs are.

[00:25:59] It's all of us together that make the country great. Not just one sex or one race. It's everybody. Everybody, this country was built on the backs of immigrants.

[00:26:11] And it always makes me feel uncomfortable when I'm reading things from people who feel that it's okay to be doing some of the things that are happening to our immigrant brothers and sisters. Because we're all the children of immigrants.

[00:26:34] And I hope you're listening to this, and I would love to know what you think about the continued coverage. Yeah. And also, I'm sure at times we're just insufferable. But we feel pretty strongly about our, you know, what's going on in the country.

[00:26:56] That also doesn't mean that we shut off all methods of communication and don't listen to other, you know, podcast creators or information out there. I like to be educated about what is going on in the country. So I don't just read or listen to CNN. Like, I check the Fox News website. I like to know what people are saying and what's going on. I like to get a balanced view.

[00:27:22] And if it comes off that it's not as balanced because of what I feel, I, you know what? Okay. All right.

[00:27:52] Yeah, I agree. We haven't really seen that. I mean, there's a lot that is just not fleshed out for us, but it's interesting to think about. Yeah, because it sounds like, I mean, from what we're seeing, especially Shunammite would feel this way. It seems like everyone's having their period except for her. But, you know, there's a fertility crisis.

[00:28:20] So you'd presume that a lot of girls would not get their periods. And yeah, then the question becomes, well, what about the ones from high profile families? What happens to them? So we don't know. But I think, yeah, maybe she would go to like a lower status commander, but still not becoming, you want to become a wife or get sent off to a colony or become a Martha or something. Just one guess.

[00:28:44] Marianne says, okay, maybe Daisy isn't Paula and Commander McKenzie's kid, but I think maybe they're both Mayday. Commander McKenzie and Paula? Or about to be. Paula's aggravation at being dumbed down just seems so out of place for such a social climber. And McKenzie, maybe he isn't weak. Maybe he can't break his cover. Or maybe he isn't weak at all when he's crossed or someone hurts his daughter. Weston has a history of domestic violence.

[00:29:10] I'm curious what McKenzie will do when he finds out about the dentist or if Weston hurts Agnes. I don't know why. Something is going on with those two. I can't put my finger on it. Marianne. Yeah, I think Weston's a total piece of crap, but we'll find out for sure. McKenzie. I don't know. Yeah, we need to learn more about him.

[00:29:35] But my sense of him is he's got some moral doubts about Gilead, but he convinces himself that it's the only way to solve the problem of population crisis. So, I don't know. I don't know. He's a high commander, which means that he must have done something to get to that high of a position. I don't know if, I don't know.

[00:30:03] Like we talked about during the episode, there's people who probably are in, I mean, we didn't explicitly say this, but in the Trump administration, especially the first Trump administration, they were like Commander Lawrence where they're like, we need to be here so we can try to curb some of his tendencies. And I wonder if McKenzie's sort of like that, but we haven't really seen behind the scenes with him yet. You mean more of a moderate? Yeah.

[00:30:31] I think he's a moderate, but he's going along with. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's conflicted. You can see that. Yeah. This may be the first time that he's actually had to witness in such a way that is so close to home for him. Yeah. And that's if you'd think as a high commander, he would know how a lot of other people that he doesn't have a connection with are suffering.

[00:31:01] So if the only time that he starts to feel conflicted is when it happens close to home, then that's worth some judgment right there, in my opinion. You know? True. But that is also how people are. Like they can ignore it or just like, oh, that's too bad before it actually gets like very close to home. It's like six degrees of separation, then five, then four, then three, two, one. Well, that's a whole thing. First, they came for so-and-so. Yep.

[00:31:31] Yep. You know? They don't think it's going to impact them. I mean, we've seen that where Trump supporters have been very hurt by Trump policies. Oh, yeah. And then that's when it- There's so many videos right now of, oh, my God. Well, you know, because something bad happens. I voted for him. Yeah. Right. I thought I would get some kind of loyalty for that. Yeah. Yeah. Gas prices losing their job. Like things are impacting them all day. Being deported.

[00:32:02] Yeah. Things are happening. Farmer's are really suffering. Yeah. Yeah. So Erica S says, I just finished the episode Broken and I honestly can't stop worrying about Daisy. The timing of everything felt so intentional and scary. Why would the writers make a point of mentioning that the Mackenzie's, Agnes's parents, might get a handmaid soon? Right as Daisy is hitting this major biological milestone. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[00:32:30] In Gilead, starting your period- Oh, my God. I never even thought about that. Me either. Right. Now it seems like it's for sure going to happen. Yeah. If people don't get what we're saying, she's suggesting Daisy could become Mackenzie's handmaid. Yeah. Wow. Imagine Agnes's reaction to that. That, yeah. Oh, gosh. In Gilead, starting your period isn't just a part of growing up. It's like a target being painted on your back.

[00:32:56] It felt like the show was whispering that Daisy is no longer just a child in their eyes. She's becoming property that can be used. My biggest fear is that the handmaid that Mackenzie's are talking about isn't some stranger, but that the show is foreshadowing a future where girls like Daisy are forced into that life the second they are physically able. Am I overreacting or did that comment feel like a direct alarm bell for Daisy's future?

[00:33:22] I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether she can get out before they decide what to do with her. Please don't make the Testament season two exactly like the Handmaid's Tale season one. Yeah. Let's not. I don't want to go through that again. Yeah. All right. Katie says, hi, guys. Thanks for another great podcast this week. I loved this episode and just wanted to share my theory on where I think this may go next episode.

[00:33:52] I think Daisy is going to come clean to the aunts about having her period and arrange to go to the dentist with Garth so that he can walk in on Dr. Grove doing something he shouldn't be and have him arrested. This means putting herself at risk in two ways. They may say she was the temptress and lead led him on or they may marry her off as she is now eligible.

[00:34:17] But I think her need to help her friends will win out over the fear of these. I can't wait to see what happens. Thanks, Katie. That's what Daphne said. Yeah. We've all seen the episode. No comment. Nope. Any mistakes that we've made throughout this entire episode will be edited out so that you don't know. Beth Ann says, hi, all really enjoying the podcast in this season of the Testaments has really

[00:34:46] gone above and beyond my expectations. So good. Awesome. Glad you're liking it. We are too. I've seen online some discussions of who Daisy's parents might be. Now we know she's not baby Nicole. A few people have reflected that maybe Commander McKenzie, especially with him questioning how young the girls were this episode for marriage could have been against the regime regime previously and got a previous biological daughter out. But I'm not one of these people based on how we saw him in The Handmaid's Tale. Right.

[00:35:15] Like fighting to keep Agnes slash Hannah away from her real mother. But people like the idea of that's how we can link Agnes and Daisy as siblings. One thought I had, though, was that Alma was a part of Mayday before June. And of course, she died in one of the most crushing scenes of the show with the train. Right. Yes. Yeah. Alma was always one of my favorites. And we didn't get a lot of backstory on her. So who's to say she didn't have a child who she managed to get out of Gilead?

[00:35:43] They have to have had children to be considered for handmaids. Right. That's a good point. And Daisy is so similar to her in mannerisms, tenacity and attitude. And how cool would that be? Picking up the fight her mother deserved to be a part of. Yeah. Also, do you remember when Daisy was putting her radio back? The girl was awake and saw her doing it once. Is there a risk of her saying what she saw and Daisy being implicated? I wondered that, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:10] If not, I don't know why she wouldn't try to get out of being killed by saying, hey, this is what I saw. Well, and I've worried about her painting a target on Daisy's back in trying to save herself because we haven't seen her. So we don't know where she is, what happened to her. So I don't know. There's so many variables and things that could happen. So next up, we have a call from Jenny Ryan. Jenny Ryan.

[00:36:39] Hi, Jenny from Saskatoon calling in the middle of a blizzard on April 24th to never ending winter over here. I'm calling to talk about testaments and two thoughts I had. Number one, I feel like if we're going to change the structure of the book and make Daisy not Holly and if they're going to do that,

[00:37:02] I really would have liked it if, okay, imagine if Hannah Agnes was actually Hannah's daughter and June is the grandmother and then Daisy's just another person. But the reason for this is I have a really hard time buying that all of this culture and all of this structure and all of these traditions and all of this stuff happened in nine years. Nine years ago, like nine is not a very long time. Ten is not a very long time.

[00:37:31] And it was easier to believe it with The Handmaid's Tale because everything felt kind of chaotic and they were still figuring it out and learning how to do it. But this feels like they've been doing this for a long time. And to me, it just would, if we're going to fuck up the timeline, sorry, if we're going to mess up the timeline anyway, why not like really put it away in the future?

[00:37:56] Because I'd love to see this, you know, what's it like in 30 years, 40 years? And then, you know, June could be still fighting the good fight in her 60s or whatever, 70s. Anyway, whatever. And then you could bring in adult Holly or something. I don't know. Anyway, I guess I shouldn't rewrite everything that I see. I just accept it for what it is. The other thing I wanted to say was...

[00:38:20] Wait, I just want to say that what she's making me think of is Iran and the cultural revolution, right? And I don't know. I haven't really studied it. I read Persepolis. Is that what it was called? It was a book about it. It was comic. And it seemed like it was a drastic, immediate change there. Yep. Right? So that's what it makes me think of. Maybe Daisy. Daisy is not Holly.

[00:38:50] Well, we know she's not Holly. But what if she could be like June's niece? And that's why they're so similar. Okay. Bye. Thank you, Jenny. Sarah says, Blessed day. This episode called Broken truly broke me. Hulda was so innocent and the light in her eyes is just gone now. I hope Agnes tells Hulda explicitly that the same thing happened to her. And that's why she believes her.

[00:39:17] I'm so impressed by all of these young actresses and their ability to show how sick to their stomach they are on their faces. I'm so glad Agnes told Daisy. I'm so happy that Daisy knew what to say and was so firm in telling her that it wasn't her fault. She has been trained her whole life to believe it is her fault when someone does that. But Daisy will not tell her that. She can help Agnes understand what he did to her, what happened to her, and what is supposed to be okay and not okay.

[00:39:46] The sex ed lessons seem to be a foreshadowing of the fact that nobody will ever teach these girls what things are wrong for men to do to them. Still, Agnes did seem to know that what happened to Hulda was wrong and not Hulda's fault. I can't wait to see Daisy take on a protective role with these girls. She was so hopeless that she can't get out and would be married off.

[00:40:09] But it seemed like once she realized the aunts were covering up molestations of these young girls outside of the marriages, she had a new purpose and drive in her life. Like a switch flipped. She does want to take Gilead down from the inside now. She seems truly determined. When she learns he touched hold the two, I know Daisy will be even more enraged.

[00:40:33] I remember Daisy making fun of the fact that those girls think the world is flat, but she didn't realize what being sheltered really means and how it gives people the opportunity to hurt you. I think she is going to teach these girls everything about the outside world and help them to freedom. Seeing Penny was also so shocking for them all and is showing them a real look at their future. Also, Shunammite was incredible in this episode.

[00:40:59] At the lunch table after the engagements, you can see the contrast in her spark with all of the greens who are now broken and dead inside. Like they all have the innocence taken from their eyes and suddenly Shunammite is the only innocent believer left. Interesting. Yeah. Did anyone else gasp when she called it the night of tears and revealed that her brother was on the flight? The contrast of the name with angel flight just rocked me to my core.

[00:41:27] It would be the night of many tears from their perspective. And I wonder if he will be the young boy that we saw Rita help adjust to life in Canada. I think it's good that she is doubting her faith. I'm so excited to see more of her and all of these girls. I can see the revolution brewing. Don't let the bastards get you down. Sarah. Nice.

[00:41:51] I asked in our Mayday Facebook group who everyone's favorite character was, and I think everyone picked either Daisy or Shunammite and more people pick Shunammite. Yeah. I was going to say, Shunammite is the one that's like just a pleasure every time she's on the screen. All right. These messages are going to be about episode seven. What was that called? Seven is commitment. Ah.

[00:42:22] All right. Sarah V says, blessed be the fruit. I'm a new listener for the Testaments, but I'm going back through all your episodes to refresh myself about what happened in the Handmaid's Tale series. I've been thinking about the timeline problems with Daisy, and I think people are forgetting that Gilead didn't take over the entire country overnight.

[00:42:43] It seems like the movement, or cult, started on the East Coast somewhere, and we see Serena Joy making speeches on campuses what seems like five years before the big political assassinations. After Gilead gains momentum, there seems to be a few years of transition before women are fully disenfranchised and no longer allowed to read.

[00:43:06] By the time June is caught over in Colorado and Hannah is about four years old, we know that the Handmaid structure has been in place for at least a couple of years. As we know, there have been successful pregnancies and births in the new system. Because of all this, I think it makes sense that at least some parts of the country would have seen the writing on the wall around the same time that Hannah was born.

[00:43:31] There would have been at least some resistance in the areas where Gilead started, and I imagine some people would not want to raise their girls in the future they saw. My personal pet theory is that she's the child of a very powerful commander or someone who used to be in the Waterford's inner circle. When they realized what was coming and what the men in this cult truly planned and believed, I think they smuggled their baby out and formed the May Day movement.

[00:43:59] Let me know what you think, and don't let the bastards grind you down. I love it. I love that theory. You know, that's interesting. Yeah, I like that theory as well. Mark P says, really enjoy your deep dives on the Testaments podcast. Thank you. Even though the Stadium episode aired over two weeks ago, it's the one I still cannot get out of my mind. Especially the intensity of Aunt Lydia's backstory.

[00:44:24] It vividly shows how quickly things can become so bad so quickly, how little warning can come when the collapse happens, despite so many prior signals that too many people downplay or disregard. It honestly felt like an actual precursor for what could too easily happen today to multiple groups. It adds such an extra element of intensity when watching the Testaments, just like with The Handmaid's Tale, as fiction can very much become reality. Mark P. I totally agree with you, Mark. Yeah.

[00:44:55] Yeah. This feedback comes in from someone who posted anonymously. Being a supporter from the very beginning, years and years, read the books, listened to podcasts, watch all the interviews, The Handmaid's Tale, and The Testaments. I'm struggling to stay enthusiastic about The Testaments. I'm starting to lose interest in the drawing out again of the storyline. The writers have adapted The Testaments well, but I think this time, to bring it to a finale, it's just not hitting the mark.

[00:45:25] Too much abuse again. It's really yuckin' in these times too. For the love of June and the cause, if the end of episode 10 is crap, I'm pulling the pin. I hope it is not. I'm not going to say anything, I just think you're going to like 9. Yeah. Yeah. I think I answered this in the group, but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to spend time in this world of Gilead.

[00:45:54] And like I said a few minutes ago, the longer this show goes on, the more I think we'll see little wins, but we won't see a big win until the end. And we'll see a lot of disturbing things and injustice and cringy things and dominating and all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, if you're just like, no, I don't want to see that right now, I totally don't blame you for that.

[00:46:25] Right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Next one comes from Betsy who says, really enjoying your podcast, especially the book club at the end. I wanted to add that the tea the girls are making in secret is to promote fertility, which in theory would be supported by Gilead. But for the fact that the girls are taking control of it themselves. Yeah. Why do they have to be secret? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like it would be encouraged. Yeah. Right.

[00:46:55] When you talked about not wanting the girls to be able to read a calendar, I wanted to add that knowing your cycle also gives you some amount of personal control over your own reproductive life. Patriarchal fascists know that when women have this power, it threatens their ability to control and dominate them. Lastly, why did they bother to cast someone who absolutely looks like June if Daisy's not Nicole? It's a question. It's a question. Maybe they cast. What's her name? I forgot the Nicole.

[00:47:25] I mean, Daisy actress. Lucy Halliday. Lucy Halliday. Maybe they cast her and then change the story. Yeah. I don't know. Mailing says, hi, Daphne, Wendy and Jason. I hope you are all doing well. Firstly, I want to thank you for hosting this podcast. I recently discovered you all and you're part of my weekly listens as no one I know is watching the show. All of your insights and analyses are so lovely to hear.

[00:47:52] And I'm very happy that you are making sure all listeners realize that everything is political, especially this show and Margaret Atwood's writing. It would be hugely ignorant to not acknowledge that. Secondly, upon rewatching the seventh episode, a couple of things jumped out at me.

[00:48:09] One, Daisy's backstory being that she had two dads makes me a little nervous as Daisy told Hannah in slash Agnes in episode four that both her mother and birth mother have passed away. I'm increasingly unsettled by Daisy and Garth's inability to be covert. And now with the eyes closed again, I'm scared this will lead to something bad for these characters. She adds on this.

[00:48:34] I've seen a preview for episode eight, which only further is how much I need Daisy and Garth to start walking in. They're stressing me out. Number two, Garth and Agnes slash Hannah in the garden. He approached using the same thing that Agnes Hannah said to him after her ceremony. You know that smoking is not allowed, which I think gives us a little insight into how the boys men are also socialized. Garth relying on something she used to reset the tone.

[00:49:04] He has not been taught how to be around girls or women showing how restrictive Gilead is and that the patriarchy serves no one and restricts everyone in the same way. Again, thank you so much for the amazing podcast. Excited to listen to the next episode in a few days. I think he knows exactly what he's doing. She was giving him the business to they're just like being playful with each other. But that's my type of money.

[00:49:32] I mean, it's kind of the Gilead version of flirting. Yes. Maybe. You're not supposed to be smoking here, you know. But also their inability to be covert, Daisy and Garth. I agree. It's like, oh, God, you're going to be found out. But they just need to talk. So we have to have situations where they can get alone somehow and talk. Next up, we have a call from Rick. Hey, guys, this is Rick from Orlando with some feedback on The Testaments.

[00:50:02] I don't think I've called in at all this series. I did call in a couple of times during The Handmaid's Tale, but this is my first time calling in this season. I've watched six episodes. And I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed because the plot just hasn't moved that fast. I mean, we've gotten some introductions to some characters like Agnes. We got a little bit of Daisy's backstory, not a lot. We know a little bit about a couple of her friends like Becca. We've met a few characters here and there.

[00:50:29] But we really don't know a lot about what's going on in the show, in the world of The Testaments. And I just think the progress has been really slow. But what really annoys me is the lack of continuity and even contradiction with what was set up in The Handmaid's Tale. I mean, let's start with the fact that Agnes doesn't seem to have any recollection of June, any recollection of her real parents. And we know on The Handmaid's Tale that June and Agnes met. They met a couple of times.

[00:50:57] And Agnes or Hannah was certainly old enough to know what was going on. So the fact that they're making her seem like she doesn't even know much about her past is a little bit off to me. What's also... I would say we don't know yet what she knows and remembers, but we definitely saw that when Daisy asked her about her birth mother, she said, we don't talk about that. So to me, it seems like she's repressing it and just doesn't want to deal with it rather than she doesn't remember it.

[00:51:26] ...off is the fact that The Handmaid's Tale ended on such a high note. June had been battling the bad guys for years. She had gotten rid of a lot of commanders. I mean, a bunch of commanders literally died in that plane. We had Commander Lawrence is gone. Fred is gone. Serena is basically out of the picture now. So we ended The Handmaid's Tale on an uplifting note where it seemed like people were making progress. The women were making progress. And now we tune into the Testaments and it's like nothing changed.

[00:51:55] The commanders are still solidly in charge. Women are still subjugated. So what the heck happened in the four years since the ending of The Handmaid's Tale? So there's a lot of continuity issues. But I think it really came to a head in Episode 6 where they showed us Lydia's backstory. Because we had frankly seen Lydia's backstory on The Handmaid's Tale. And she had been presented at the time as a really religious zealot who I think fell into the infrastructure of Gilead very, very cleanly and very nicely.

[00:52:24] This flashback shows that she... I don't think we saw her falling into Gilead. We saw her in her life pre-Gilead. And you're right, she was a very religious person who was sort of morally judgmental. But this is the first time we're seeing how the transition from that person to Aunt Lydia happened. Right? I think so. She was actually doing this out of fear.

[00:52:52] She was in fear for her own life. And it just seems like this flashback and the one in The Handmaid's Tale are about two different people. The bigger issue is just the time, the passage of time. In the current flashbacks, we see Commander Judd who looks unchanged from today. He's in the same role that he's in in the current episodes. Lydia really doesn't look any different except they let her hair down to make it seem like it was in the past. Anne Fidala doesn't look... They've given her different glasses in the new time frame.

[00:53:21] But these characters basically look unchanged. And the flashback makes it seem that it just occurred a few years ago in real time. But we know that The Handmaid's Tale, episode one of The Handmaid's Tale, has to be at least ten years ago. And we know Aunt Lydia was fully in charge in episode one. So that means that Commander Judd had to have been working behind the scenes for all those seasons and what we never saw him.

[00:53:46] All the interactions with Fred, all the times we saw the commanders together, the rise of Commander Lawrence, all these other commanders coming and going. Where was Commander Judd? If he was really in charge, why did we never see him? Because they're in Boston. The show was set in Boston. And where are they now? They're in Maryland. They're in Maryland. Yeah. There's a lot of... I don't know how many states have become Gilead, but it's a big place.

[00:54:15] It's not the whole United States, but it's a huge chunk of it. So, you know, the way they're handling... The way they handled this flashback just rubs me the wrong way. Even Aunt Vidala, she was a close friend of Lydia's in the very beginning. She obviously has been in the movement for a while, but why did we never see her on The Handmaid's Tale? So I think the whole way they're coordinating the two series has been a little bit off. And I think the canon established by The Handmaid's Tale is just... Sorry, I keep pausing, but I want to answer as they go along.

[00:54:43] I would say Vidala, we don't know yet for sure, but she's at the school. So aunts run the school. Ants also administer The Handmaid's. When we saw Aunt Lydia, she was in charge of The Handmaid's. And I would presume it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to think that Vidala may have been over at the school the whole time in Maryland while Lydia was in Boston administering to The Handmaid's. He's thrown out the window to a large extent with the Testaments.

[00:55:11] And the only way I can reconcile this is to kind of go back to sci-fi and think about parallel worlds and alternate universes. And I kind of think this is like the Earth 2 version of The Handmaid's Tale. It's the only way I can reconcile it in my mind. The Handmaid's Tale took place in one world. Testaments takes place in sort of a parallel universe. And maybe that explains the producer's comment that Daisy isn't Nicole. You say, well, it can't be Nicole. The ages don't work out right.

[00:55:39] Maybe the answer is that Daisy is Nicole, but it's Nicole from a different universe where things unfolded differently. And again, I understand how this came about. I know The Testaments was written as a sequel really to The Handmaid's Tale book. The Handmaid's Tale book only covered one season of the TV show. But I do think the producers could have done a better job in coordinating the two series and at least acknowledging. And finally, in episode six, we saw some acknowledgement from Aunt Lydia about the events in the final season of The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:56:08] But for the most part, they haven't been really coordinating the two series that well. So anyway, that's my feedback on The Testaments. I do have some additional comments I want to make about politics and about the way you responded to political points that have been raised by listeners. I'm going to do that in a separate feedback, though. I don't want to really get these two confused. So this is my feedback on The Testaments, and I will send you another message to deal with some comments on politics. So take care, guys. Thanks, Rick.

[00:56:38] Yeah, we'll hear that one later. But I would just say the series has opened with a real focus on establishing Agnes' world. It's not about connecting The Handmaid's Tale with The Testaments yet, but we're getting that in bits and pieces. And I expect that we'll get more of that. I want to know how they connect, too. But I'm looking at it more like I can't wait to find out versus how come we haven't seen yet?

[00:57:05] I think, too, the way you just said that we're looking at Agnes' world. This is Agnes' world through her eyes, not maybe through the eyes of the book, maybe as closely as what we might have expected. But this is looking at it through what Agnes sees and what she is perceiving a lot of the time. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the differences.

[00:57:30] And I mean, I really think that this is the world of The Handmaid's TV show. There may be some timing things that don't quite work out or that strain credulity. But I think that doesn't mean that it's not supposed to be the same world or that it's an alternate reality. I think it's the same reality. And I do believe that we're going to see more and more to fill in the backstory of how the two periods connect. I hope. Anyway.

[00:58:01] All right. Sarah says, Hey, guys, I've been listening since The Handmaid's Tale, and I love hearing your debrief and analysis every week. After this week's episode, I have noticed a parallel that may be unintentional, but it struck out to me. In the scene where Lydia thinks that she has to shoot Vidala, you guys speculated if Vidala was lined up to be shot because she chose not to shoot another woman.

[00:58:27] This reminded me a lot of the book 1984, where Winston and Julia are found by the totalitarian regime to be having an affair and planning an escape. In their interrogation, they are brought to separate rooms and have rat cages strapped to their faces. Winston breaks and exposes their secrets before the rats scratch him.

[00:58:50] He then meets Julia, and she has scratches on her face, showing that she didn't give in to the regime and suffered because of it. The themes of coercive control and showing who sticks by their morals in times where fascist leaders take over lines up really well with the Testaments and the rise of Gilead. Given the significance of 1984 in pop culture dystopian storytelling, it would make a lot of sense if they were to reflect each other.

[00:59:19] Sorry for the long spiel, and feel free to cut it down if you happen to mention this. Thanks for everything you guys do and sending love from Ireland. Kind regards, Sarah. Thank you, Sarah. I love that. I love 1984. I haven't read it in a long time. That was probably my favorite book that I was forced to read in high school by a tyrannical regime. And no, I love that book. And yeah, I think they're of a genre, you know, and equally important, Handmaid's Tale in 1984.

[00:59:52] Kat says, well, just when I thought I was ready to be back in Gilead, Aunt Lydia. I thought perhaps she was showing some grace, but whoa, throwing Garth Chapin in the mix just to teach Agnes a lesson? Punishment? I'm not sure what's going on. Mirrors is Paula's desire to punish Agnes. Paula relishes in Weston's power and his craving slash ability to break her stubborn spirit.

[01:00:14] At least Becca smiled a little when Garth said they would live nearby and showed kindness that she would not be getting anywhere else if it's real. Uh, even though it's not what she wants or to hurt Agnes, but that's the Gilead hope just to flicker. Holda is adorable doing her match interview. I wish her the best. I enjoyed the Daisy perspective and story. The harsh contrast between Gilead and Toronto.

[01:00:42] The Pearl Girls are interesting also, an in-between and separate group. What are their futures? What are their futures? Don't they just eventually become like everyone else? I don't know. Wives, Econo wives. I mean. I think it depends on their fertility. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, besides being terrified by the eyes, I love the surprises big and small.

[01:01:06] Mayday waitress, Agnes picking up the cigarette butt and quote, fuck your sorries, Paula. A very full episode. Agreed. Ben says first, Jason, I surprised myself. I was wondering why your voice was familiar and realized after two episodes that I had listened to your coverage of the first couple seasons of The Walking Dead cast. I even sent in a voicemail of my then six-year-old girl doing a zombie growl. Nice.

[01:01:34] But I found this cast independently. We must just both have good taste in TV. Anyway, for this week's episode, I hope we learn more about Garth in the series. For instance, how did Garth know to meet Daisy at the border? Was he moonlighting from guarding the McKenzie's or is it normal for guardians to be doing all kinds of jobs? Also, is he a native of Gilead who's turned to the resistance or a plant like Daisy?

[01:02:01] I wonder if we'll ever learn much about his motivations or if he'll be a permanent side character like Nick in The Handmaid's Tale. Thanks for the quality show. I'm looking forward to more. Ben. Thanks, Ben. And yeah, I remember when we used to have a lot of people send in their zombie sounds and I took a bunch of them and put them into the little bumper that we used at the beginning of the listener feedback segment on Walking Dead cast.

[01:02:26] And I don't know if your daughter's is in there, but here, I'll play it for you and you can listen and see if it's in there. I feel like that last one right before he says brains could be. I don't know. All right.

[01:02:41] Jamie says, after listening to your recap of the Testaments episode four, I just had to write in to tell you that I listen to you not only for the recaps, which are stellar and I love them, but also because you bring in and discuss real world events that are directly related to the story themes. Can you imagine living during the Holocaust and calling into a radio show to complain that they are occasionally discussing the terrible death camps and not sticking to the recap of a TV show?

[01:03:11] Good Lord, commenter. If you don't like it, move on and leave the rest of us to vent about the nightmare we are all living in due to Trump and the GOP. What a privileged and naive take. Must be nice to live in a fantasy world. Daphne, Wendy and Jason, you keep doing you and don't change. And thanks for everything you do. Jamie. Thanks, Jamie. Thank you. Yeah.

[01:03:36] If you feel the same as Jamie, one way you can help support us is to go on to Apple Podcasts and give us a good review because this, you know, the way we do this is kind of polarizing and it's definitely pulled our rating average down a little bit. But whatever. I mean, I'm glad people appreciate it. Margaret says just started Testaments after having been a Handmaid's Tale fan throughout its run.

[01:04:02] I looked for a recap podcast because I find they deepen the appreciation of a show, but that did not happen with you guys. No, I'm just kidding. I made that up. And it is like talking with your friends who are also obsessed. I want you all to know I value all your thoughts, even and especially your political and personal perspectives. Keep it up. Since it's likely you'll get more negative email on that, haters going to hate. As a 60 plus year old federal worker in a red state, I need your voices in my ears. Nice.

[01:04:31] I feel like we're Mayday. We're like the radio station. On another note, though, I thought I may comment on your thoughts around superstition and miscarriage. In our current world, approximately 10% to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. And some estimates suggest that more than 30% of all pregnancies may end in miscarriage, often occurring before the individual is aware of the pregnancy. That's a quote from March of Dimes.

[01:04:55] As a healthcare worker and woman, the reason we don't tell others about our pregnancy before the end of the first trimester is that it has about a 20% chance of ending or even being a blighted ovum. Now we're tasked with trying to unring that bell while we also grieve. So, not just superstition, but real world pragmatic, quote, let's not set ourselves up to have a bunch of shitty conversations. Just try to keep it real. As I've already said, keep it up with the conversation. Let the haters dig their heads in the sand.

[01:05:25] That's how they want it. M. Is she responding to something we said? Because I know that women typically don't talk about being pregnant until three months in. Yeah, I think we talked about that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if we said anything contradictory about it, but yeah. No, I don't think it was contradictory. I think we just talked about it. And she's right. It's not just about superstition.

[01:05:47] It's about the stigma of pregnancy loss and not having those conversations. Yeah, and stigma or just not wanting to have to talk to every single person about it in your life. Right. Okay. Christina says, hello. Love your podcast. You got me through Handmaid's Tale and I'm so happy to hear your voices again. Two thoughts.

[01:06:15] One, why didn't Commander McKenzie marry a freshly graduated plum after Tabitha died like the other high-ranking commanders do? What was the reasoning behind him marrying someone similar in age to him? Someone possibly not fertile. That is a good question. Two, wasn't there a night where Talia, the pearl girl who was taken away, saw Daisy putting her radio in her bed? Why did Daisy hide the radio in another girl's bed? Why not in a neutral space like a bathroom?

[01:06:45] If Talia saw that, she will rat Daisy out. Will she rat Daisy out? Thanks, Christina. That is a question. That's on the list of questions. Yeah. And if she did, would they believe her? Because, you know, it's easy to say, you know, somebody else did it. Like, they might not believe her.

[01:07:04] Yeah, I mean, I think in one sense it was probably for the story to make it so that someone else would get blamed and get taken away and Daisy would feel guilty about that, right? But if you want an in-world reason, it's probably just that they just don't have anywhere else to put things, I guess. I don't know. All right. Caitlin says, hi, I have a topic that I'd love to hear you guys debrief on the podcast.

[01:07:34] Did not read the books. I am only watching the show, but I watched all of Handmaid's Tale. I'm starting to wonder how it is possible that no one in Gilead knows who Daisy really is. If Gilead felt strongly enough to kill her parents because they had taken Daisy in after she was smuggled out of Gilead, wouldn't they know what she looked like? In episode seven, we saw her give a fake backstory during questioning. Are we just assuming that Gilead is still looking for her in Toronto?

[01:08:02] I find it hard to believe they would kill her parents so violently and then just stop caring about trying to find her. Excited to hear your thoughts about this on the podcast. None of my friends are watching the show, so I love hearing you guys debrief each episode because I have no one to talk about it with. LOL, best, Caitlin. People like you are pretty much our bread and butter. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she was a baby. I mean, she was a little baby. Yeah.

[01:08:29] But I think that could come up as a plot point. Probably not this season, but maybe in future seasons. Yeah. Tammy says, This episode was two parallel heroine origin stories. Agnes and Daisy are mirror images of each other. I like that. Both with a Disney princess backstory.

[01:08:50] Beautiful young women whose parents died in unfortunate or mysterious circumstances, leaving them at the mercy of adults with suspicious motives for helping them navigate the world without their birth parents. Great point. Yeah, I think that's like the crux of this series so far. That's why Bruce Miller wanted to have them be the same age and have Daisy not be Nicole. Yeah. It's like you go through it together.

[01:09:14] Agnes is waking up to the way she was lied to her whole life about her value in that world. She was a rule follower and felt safe in the knowledge that if she was a good girl, she would be rewarded. She was betrayed by Aunt Lydia, and I think she felt that injustice deeply. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I felt that turning point for her. I had a moment in my adolescence when I was betrayed by an adult in charge in a much, much less serious situation.

[01:09:44] But I remember it vividly learning that even if I followed the rules and was polite and respectful and pleaded my case, I could still be brushed off and even punished. Silly and unserious as that situation was, it really changed me as a person. I never trusted authority in the same way, and I never felt obligated to the rules in the same way again. And you're reminding me of this time I was in an arcade and an adult came up to me and accused me of stealing the knob off of one of the video games.

[01:10:13] And I told him I didn't do it, and he wouldn't let up. He just kept accusing me. And I felt like I know it's a stupid little thing, but it really stuck out in my mind. You know, I did steal it, but still. No, I'm just kidding. I didn't steal it. Anyway, she goes on. And we see Agnes later defend Gilead to Daisy, but that's how it goes in real life. Fiercely defending the thing outwardly that we're quietly questioning internally. Absolutely.

[01:10:40] In defending Gilead to Daisy, she's testing the truth of what she's been told inside of herself. And I love the story with Agnes and Garth. The scene with Nick, I mean, Garth, that's what she said. That's not my joke. Reminded me of Baz Luhrmann's Romeo plus Juliet, the star cross love of it all and the music. I don't really think Garth is like Nick. I think he's the anti-Nick, the Nick we wanted Nick to be, hopefully anyway. Wow, I feel like this could be coming right out of my head. Did I write this?

[01:11:08] I love seeing Daisy's backstory, but I wish there was a little more of it. I wanted to see them prepare her better for going to Gilead. It felt way too quick, and I think Mayday would have taken more care than that. They're kind of reckless sometimes, especially if June was involved. I also noted that there's a parallel between Daisy allowing someone else to take the blame for the radio and the choices thrust on Lydia in the stadium, being forced into an agonizing decision for their own survival. Thanks again for a great podcast.

[01:11:36] Can't wait to see how all this plays out. Tammy. Thanks, Tammy. That was a pleasure to read. Thank you.

[01:12:14] Matt King says, poor Agnes, seeing Becca matches with her guardian and object of desire Garth, while she is stuck with the king of the eyes, Commander Weston. Plenty of interesting backstory for Daisy, even that Daisy is just a nickname and that she was bound for Columbia, the country, as the UK has retinal scanners now. The scene with Agnes and Daisy looking at Aggie's secret stash of curiosities was good. Until Daisy accidentally ended it.

[01:12:44] Yeah, I like that. Lauren Jane says, not sure if this has already been discussed, but if Agnes marries Weston, this is going to be great for Mayday, considering her close links with Daisy and Garth. Terrifying for Agnes all the same. How will Garth react? That's the question. Yeah.

[01:13:08] Audra Annika James says, is it just me or when Agnes was showing Daisy all the things she hid and collected, did you think of The Little Mermaid? I did not, but now I feel... I get it, yeah. Yeah, I was like, oh, I can't believe I didn't think of that, because I love that movie. Emily Belander... Look at this stuff. Part of this world. Emily Belander says, what happens to widows?

[01:13:33] In Handmaid's Tale, we saw pressure for Sarita and Naomi to remarry, but they were still relatively young. With the commanders marrying younger and younger women and girls, I'm wondering what happens to older widows. Where do wives in their 60s and 70s go when their husband passes? Do we know? I don't even know if The Handmaid's Tale really addressed that. You don't see any grandparents anywhere. Yeah. No.

[01:13:59] They go to a great farm upstate and they're released to run in the fields. Free. All right. Jess Scraballo says, why are all these old men commanders single? Are they all wife killers? If a pillar of Gilead is traditional family values, how did all these men rise to the top? Because it's all bullshit. Yeah. That's why. Yeah, that's the question.

[01:14:29] Gina Kell says, so happy to see Rita and her involvement. I'm also starting to think Garth likes Agnes. Me too. But knows he can't do that. I predict he will marry Becca and help her escape. Also, how old do we think Garth is? I think he's 20 years old. Maybe 22. Like 20 and 22. He's got a baby face. I'm going to say 26. All right. All right.

[01:14:54] Carla Kaufman says, the interrogation of Daisy and the outcome for the pro girls was just so tense. I was leading forward in my seat when they came in to take the girl away. Awful. Rose Stepata says, putting down an internet marker. Hannah watched The Little Mermaid with Luke and June. She has a bag of thingamabobs. Oh, yeah. That would make perfect sense. Yep.

[01:15:21] Alex Wright says, was happy to see Rita after hearing the Scottish accent of Lucy Halliday, the actor who plays Daisy. Just realized she was in the recent film California Scheming. Thought I recognized her. Yeah. Watched her on, shoot, now I can't remember what show. I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. She's so full of energy and fun and very, very Scottish. Yes. Kiva Cher says, whoa.

[01:15:49] My overwhelming emotion after this episode is rage. Rage for the hypocrisy that is in every single aspect of Gilead. Hypocrisy of the very, very eligible commander who used to be a wife beater and a tech bro looking for a new perfect wife, perfect and docile life. Hypocrisy of Agnes, quote, mom, who used to be a freaking therapist referring to her as a horse that needs to be broken. I just want to punch them all.

[01:16:18] The last few episodes have really hit all of my nerves because of all the hypocrisy in the real world right now by the ruling class. I'm mad as hell to quote Daisy. Fuck Gilead. P.S. I'm just loving Daisy's backstory. The actress rocks. I'm also happy to see Agnes slowly doubt everything she's been told. Time to learn about the crack pipe, sweetie pie. There comes a time in every young girl's life. Yes.

[01:16:47] That's right. Becky Anderson says, loved how they included Rita in the mix. It made perfect sense she'd be an ally for May Day in Canada. She was great with Daisy being her kind self, but also getting straight to the point with no sugarcoating anything. I think that's just what Daisy needed to get her head on straight for her mission. She nailed it with the Pearl Girls. Lucy is acting her butt off. Agnes's stepmother is horrid.

[01:17:16] I can't imagine referring to a child as a horse that needs to be broken, and it's not good to send her off to the hands of an abusive man. Gilead is so fucked up. I won't spoil anything for the non-book readers, but I was concerned about any changes they might make. So far, I've been pleasantly surprised, and I like knowing some things with the histories and the girls, but also not knowing what could happen next makes it feel like watching The Handmaid's Tale. So suspenseful. Thanks, Becky. Yeah.

[01:17:46] And Becky is our friend, and she's also a podcaster. Might as well mention it here. If you love the show, The Pit, check out What's On Tonight. Becky podcast. She's fabulous on that. Now we have a call from Ange from Australia. Hi, Wendy, Daphne, and Jason. My name is Ange, and I'm calling from Melbourne, Australia.

[01:18:10] And I just wanted to say I'm absolutely loving, loving, loving your podcast. I'm a huge Handmaid's Tale fan, so I had reservations when the Testament started. But, oh my God, that has just blown me away. It is so good. I don't want it to end. But I just wanted to thank the three of you.

[01:18:34] I came across your podcast by accident at the beginning of the season, and it is so good. And I just love how you analyse each episode, but I also love just hearing your perspective about what's happening in the world, because trust me, from Melbourne here, we see you. And it is heartbreaking.

[01:18:59] And I just hope, well, I hope, I hope that things will turn around. And so I just wanted to say thanks. And my sister's also listening too. So, hi, Grace. She listens to this podcast as well. Bye. Oh, that was wonderful. Hi, Grace. Thank you, Ange. Thank you. Please call in again. Yeah, please call in again.

[01:19:28] All right. Christina Gonzalez says, my thoughts, my thoughts. Holy mini rebellion cakes. Batman, did anyone else give snaps to Agnes for her perfectly phrased Gileadian shade to Commander Weston? It was perfection. I thought flames were going to shoot out of Mother Paula's ears. You go, Glenn Coco. However, her comment, plus his abusive backstory, plus Mother Paula's remarks about her needing

[01:19:54] to be broken in like a horse, led me to consider some grim foreshadowing for our budding rabble rouser. Deep, patient breaths. All will be revealed in good time. Wonder how long we're going to have to wait until season two. Didn't Handmaid's Tale come out pretty much every year except for one skip? I can't remember. Mostly. Yeah. So I feel like they're going to be back to it at some point soon. Yeah. I think it's definitely going to be every year. Right. Yes. Yeah. I can't remember.

[01:20:24] I feel like a good therapist would tell us to have deep, patient breaths. Is that something that Paula would say? Oh, no. I'm not sure she was a good therapist. Carrie Kloiber says, I'm not sure why they didn't prepare Daisy a little more. She seems somewhat unprepared for the horror of it all. I'll say. It's kind of part of her personality, though, too. Just jumping into things. Ryan Rottinghouse says,

[01:20:50] Call me crazy, but the way Lucy Halliday plays Daisy, especially in the hotel room with the Pearl Girls, reminds me of Ellie from The Last of Us. Anyone else see it or is it just me? I can see that. Absolutely. I can. Yes. They're kind of similar. They're. Yeah. They're badass, kind of impulsive at times, have a delightful, smart mouth. Yes. Yeah. Like she was just gleeful in that scene. And you can see Ellie in that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:20] She's smarter than everyone else in the room. Yep. Maggie Rapucci says, I agree with Daphne that there is more to Vidala than we know. Yes, she's harsh with the girls, but we've seen her react to things that let us know she isn't comfortable with this world. Yeah, totally. I think that the way she almost had to brace herself before gathering the girls on the field trip or her reaction to the man losing his hand. But then she snaps right back into ant mode. I really want to know how things developed after the stadium. Me too. I understand why she's seemingly scared of Lydia.

[01:21:49] She's terrifying, but there should be also anger given what happened there. Yeah. That story is left to tell, you know, their relationship after what happened and how Vidala psychologically responded to it. We can only sort of guess right now, but I'm so curious to know more. She goes on. And I'm sure the commander plans to extort that. But when was she just an aunt assigned somewhere else? And when Lydia started the school, she was requested or assigned there on purpose.

[01:22:17] Does Lydia ever feel any guilt at all? Or maybe her behavior towards Vidala is a coping mechanism to avoid feeling it. I mean, she does talk about you can't afford to have friends and just sort of crushing instinct. So I think she kind of crushed it in herself. It seems like we know from the Hamming's Tale that the wife schools, the plums were new because June saw Hannah in a new color and Lawrence explained they opened these schools. I'm just curious to what she was doing before Lydia opened the school. It's interesting.

[01:22:46] I feel like with the plums, it very much was a reaction to the age of the girls because they had girls old enough to start training them to be wives. And so that was the natural progression. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. So they were already doing the training and there was already some kind of a school. And also, the world of the Hamming's Tale and the Testaments can feel small, but it is huge.

[01:23:14] So there's not just going to be one school. Yeah. Katie Pettit. Hello, Katie. Katie's actually a good friend of mine from outside the podcasting world. Katie. Katie. One of the things I'm looking forward to most in the Testaments is the exploration of Agnes's, Hannah's memories of before and how she remembers her birth parents, June and Luke. We've seen glimpses of this so far, but they are very subtle. The look on her face when she said, we don't talk about that in reference to her birth mother.

[01:23:44] And in this episode, her showing the trinkets she collected from the beach. As an adoptee myself, I can confirm there is a lack of representation in literature, film and art or anything really of what we go through. The identity crisis, the abandonment, the search for self. I really hope this series explores this from the Agnes-Hannah point of view. I can relate to Agnes's defense of who she calls her mother, Tabitha, since that is the

[01:24:12] most important mother figure in her current memory. But if she was five or six when taken from June and she is between 14 to 16 now, there is no doubt in my mind that she has memories of June, even if they are just vague feelings. That love between mother and child is an imprint and cannot be broken. In some adoption literature, the separation from the birth mother is called the primal wound. Many adoptees know this wound, even if they have no memory of that separation.

[01:24:41] I also find it fascinating that the flashback of Agnes's memories of Tabitha are at the beach. In The Handmaid's Tale, there is a sequence of June and Luke at the beach with Hannah. And now Agnes talks about collecting trinkets from the beach. These are little details I cannot overlook. And I wonder if eventually we are going to learn that Agnes, Hannah, remembers June and Luke more than we think.

[01:25:04] Especially given that we saw that scene of Hannah writing her name in secret when she was in the school in Colorado. Yeah. I think we will see that, that she remembers. Renee Goodman Bates says, Good episode, acting and cinematography on point. I'm still a little frustrated with the pace of the series, especially as a book reader. There's a lot of action in the book and it feels like they're slow walking it.

[01:25:33] It's fine for me. I'm all in. But friends of mine who aren't that invested are growing bored and aren't sure what they're building towards. As always, I'm hopeful next week's episode has more action and moves the storyline along more. I feel like. I think it has. Yeah. I feel like we're building towards a wedding, but we'll see. Yeah.

[01:25:59] Susan Froherjo says, just a timeline though about Daisy. I know it's likely a moot point to speculate, but go with me for a moment. They talk about her being smuggled out while still in diapers and not being able to be soothed as easily. Could be an infant, but could also be as old as two. In some cases, even three and still in diapers. In the handmaid's tale, they do talk several times about kids who have been smuggled out prior

[01:26:22] to the angels flight, but also some who got smuggled out just before the sons of Jacob fully took over. So maybe she was a high value target who got out similar to the way Luke and June were trying to escape in the first episode. Agnes slash Hannah is pictured around three years old in the first episode of the handmaid's tale. And we know that she was born in 2009 based on the files they showed in the most recent episode. Oh, wow. I didn't catch that.

[01:26:51] Um, so Gilead was being founded around 2012. Therefore, if Daisy is two ish at the very beginning of Dilyad, uh, Gilead, Dilyad, it stands to reason that she was born, uh, in 2010 ish, making her to be 13 or so in 2023 when we believe this series is taking place, or maybe it is even 2024 or 2025. She seems to have a pretty good handle on all this. June did have a posting before the Waterford's.

[01:27:17] And according to the lore, that posting would have been approximately a year or so before she would have been reposted 2012 founding of Gilead. Hannah is three ish. Daisy two ish 2013. June goes to the Waterford's six season, but approximately seven to nine years have passed in the show. So at the end of the show, Agnes slash Hannah is approximately 10 to 12, making Daisy approximately nine to 11 at the end of the handmaid's tale.

[01:27:44] Bruce has said it's about four years later, making Agnes or Hannah 14 to 16 and Daisy 13 to 15. If we assume she was younger than Hannah, when she was smuggled out, all of that being said, I think it will be super interesting to see who they reveal her to be. And I don't make too much of them saying she was born in Gilead because USA to the power that be is now Gilead. And they recognize dominion over all former citizens.

[01:28:13] Despite the fact that it's hard to make it work timeline wise, my theory is that we will come to realize that she was a very high value target smuggled out in the very early days of Gilead. And it was an embarrassment to them. I also believe her birth mom was likely captured and made a handmaid and subsequently killed, which is why she mentions her birth mom being passed away. We'll see. Okay.

[01:28:39] So the next batch of feedback is about stadium. Mark Prince Jr. says excited to join this community and to discuss the Testaments and the continued relevance of the Handmaid's Tale. Mark's referred to Mayday Facebook group that we have. While I'm caught up on the latest episode of the Testaments, I still cannot get the stadium episode with Aunt Lydia's backstory out of my mind.

[01:29:06] The fear, intimidation and violence was more palpable than ever. And that is saying a lot for these series, especially in the context of today's world. Agreed. That episode, I think, affected me. Is in my top five of the episodes between Handmaid's Tale and Testaments that it's in the top five of I can't get past it. Like, I remember when I was doing the prep for the episode to talk about it, I think I

[01:29:34] mentioned I didn't know if I wanted to watch it again to prep because it was polarizing. And in this series that feels lighter than the Handmaid's Tale generally, even though it's got a lot of atrocities and disturbing things in it, that episode was plucked right out of the Handmaid's Tale. So it felt even more like a shock to me. That's how it felt to me anyway. Like, holy shit.

[01:30:05] Right. It's like you think you're protected by justice and the laws of the land and then everything gets turned on its head. Yeah. It's scary. It's scary. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alicia Stout says, when I saw the episode titled The Stadium, my brain immediately went to Fenway, but nope. That was a whole different kind of nightmare. Oh, my God. I have mixed feelings on Aunt Lydia's backstory.

[01:30:35] Like, I wanted to love it because we finally get more of her, but something felt a little off. It kind of seemed like Aunt Vidala got thrown in just because she exists in the Testaments and was not part of the OG Handmaid's Tale. When Lydia had to meet the commander for the first time in the stadium, tell me that wouldn't have been so much better if it was Fred instead of Judd.

[01:31:00] I agree, but we needed to have the Lydia-Jud connection for this story. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been cool, though, if Fred was there. Like, that could have been a cameo that could have tied things in a bit better. That's true. Um, Vidal, I'm interested in Vidal as a character because of their past where they used to be friends and then they had that thing that happened at the stadium and to see how that impacted things.

[01:31:29] So I'm glad she's in it. But yeah, she seems a lot different than Vidal from the book to me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Rosemary Cundiff-Brown says, I haven't been able to make it through the episode yet. The first 15 minutes made me so frantic. I need a little time. Agreed. I was like, yeah, I felt like a punch in the head and the gut at the same time. Amy Bauer says, that was a fantastic episode. So much insight into Lydia and Vidal's history.

[01:31:59] And they did a fantastic job of showing events and not just dumping lore. I strongly suspect that Garth is going to be matched with Becca. I'm sure Lydia would have picked up that Agnes has a crush on Garth. So it feels needlessly cruel to match Agnes's crush with her best friend. And it's something that Lydia might decide is needed, is a needed dose of reality for Agnes, since Agnes was so bold to ask that Garth be made eligible.

[01:32:28] And it's a good solution for Becca from Lydia's perspective. It doesn't reward the old commander who got Becca drunk. And given that Garth is a hero with a prominent father, he probably would be considered a catch for a dentist's daughter. Good call. Yeah. I generally hate a messy love triangle or square. I've lost count. But this could actually be a good thing for Becca, assuming Garth isn't spying on Mayday and loyal to Gilead.

[01:32:58] Daisy knows both of their secrets, and they might be able to work with Mayday to get Becca out. Nice. There's another bit of feedback here that I'll read, too, from Deborah Holtz. About to watch the episode. Still having a hard time between the book differences. I'm wondering if the show Daisy is Lydia's co-worker's child from the book, trying to figure out the connection if they are not half-sisters. All right.

[01:33:28] Susan Froher-Joe says, The recent episode was so well done, hard to miss the real-world implications, and impossible for it not to be compared in so many ways. It was brutal to watch, but I am actually grateful that it somehow seemed less brutal than the book. I think it is the fact that Margaret is so masterful at painting word a picture, but also in a book you have much more time to show the details.

[01:33:55] All of that said, I was curious to see how they would portray the whole scenario, but also scared due to the brutality. It was interesting to hear some more background about Vidala as she seems so young to have been made an ant based on how they treat young, potentially fertile women in Gilead. One other thing, they talk in the episode about tenderizing them, and I think this is them

[01:34:22] showing us just how far that can go regarding Vidala's behavior now versus the before time. Such good points. And, you know, Vidala could have had her tubes tied or something like that. That's my thoughts. The, yeah, the book was more brutal too. Oh yeah. She got, Lydia got tortured, you know, it was more, took longer.

[01:34:51] Therese Breeze says, Great episode, if not one of the more difficult ones to watch across between both series. And if you were a book reader, there's an anticipatory sense of dread. With the title stadium. True. That said, the stories of Lydia and Vidala from prisoners to ants were masterfully depicted, especially in the way Lydia begins to reciprocally and emotionally manipulate Judd as her tool of survival in the new world order.

[01:35:15] In the closeup scene of Lydia's face, you can see and also feel the actual moment of her, her brain flips the switch. Right? Yeah. She handled that as, as well as she could. I was asking myself, what would I do if I were in her shoes? It will be interesting to see how the power dynamic between Judd and Lydia plays out as we get further along into this series. I mean, I say she handles that as well as she could, as well as she could, if she wanted

[01:35:42] to stay alive and have as much power as she could manage so that she could control her own destiny, you know? But then there were a lot of costs to that. Yep. Tammy writes in about the stadium episode as well. This episode hit me in the gut. I couldn't sleep and I don't know how I would watch it again. Same thing as well. I was feeling so well done.

[01:36:11] It perfectly captured how quick and confusing being rounded up might feel and how compliance from the very start would feel conservative and safe. We're used to being in lines. We're used to having items searched in security, but I felt sick to my stomach when Lydia saw the giant bins of phones and felt the dawning of the seriousness of the situation with her. I also thought about how slowly we've all gotten used to the sight of men with guns on the street and people being swept up, even if it's still shocking.

[01:36:40] Incremental frogs being boiled in a pot. Lydia is obviously a complex character. Is she so different from others in this world whose faith has been weaponized in our current times? Gilead didn't rise up immediately. The regime was able to accomplish their goals because they softened the ground, strengthened the patriarchy through exploiting people's faith. I see today how easy it is for people to be given permission through the language of their faith

[01:37:07] to accept racist and misogynistic beliefs and how slowly bad men exploit that to sneak in more and more extreme ideas. It would have been unthinkable, crazy, fringe thinking even five years ago to say that women's right to vote should be abolished. Yet now it gets serious airtime. Women have their sincere beliefs twisted as these bad actors slowly redefine what a quote, godly woman is. The trad wife movement is an obvious example of this.

[01:37:37] Lydia was part of that world, part of the softening of that ground. There's also the economy of power in a patriarchy at play. In order for Gilead to succeed, they had to get some women to comply and those women have to be rewarded. The easiest way to do that is to exploit their faith and raise those women up as models of femininity, Serena Joy, a modern real-life example of a recent widow come to mind.

[01:38:02] Small choices were, are made every day to get power and validation within that system. This is done mostly through comfort and public praise versus shame. They also have to systematize women policing each other, which again is done by rewarding the good women who punish and shame the other women. The most interesting thing about Lydia is that she seems to be self-aware. She knows on some level she's being manipulated, that her faith is being used against her.

[01:38:32] She deeply understands the economy of power in the patriarchy. We've seen her use it in flashbacks when she called CPS on her friend. She used the system to elevate herself in that case, even if it was just to make herself feel superior. She's so very good at working in this power economy that she engineers the perfect system to ensure women will be able to be manipulated far into the future with little resistance, the girls' school,

[01:39:02] where women are taught to police themselves so men don't have to. In this episode, the line about being a phoenix or a cockroach really hit hard. While she can't possibly be fully held fully liable for her choices in the stadium, Lydia was on some level allowing herself to be manipulated and elevated. She is reading and surviving in the system and justifying it to herself. She is not like other women. She gets it. Is she a success because she is working to usher in a godly system?

[01:39:32] Or is she just a survivor grabbing her own little pieces of power? She knows the answer. And this story is about her coming to terms with that. One of the reasons this episode hit so hard is because it causes you to really think about how we participate in systems of injustice ourselves, even in small ways, because it gives us some comfort or some power, even if we can't be completely blamed for it.

[01:39:57] What would our choice really be in her shoes, especially if we thought our faith could save the soul of the nation? Finally, I just finished watching Trust Me on Netflix about the FLDS, and I see so many echoes. I've also seen that. It's a very good series. Sometimes I think it would be so easy for Gilead to put this system into place so quickly, but it really only takes a generation of young women being raised in isolation

[01:40:24] and trained to do what these men say at the peril of their souls to get compliance. But there is always hope. In the end, the bonds of women do prevail, and love of mothers for their daughters break the cycle of abuse. Also, I think Daisy being the daughter of the pregnant teacher is the best theory. Thanks for another fantastic podcast, Tammy.

[01:40:46] I wish we'd read that after the comment that came in from the woman who is not going to listen anymore. Yeah. Because I feel like it really hits at those things. Yeah. It was so well written and a pleasure to hear read. And I wonder if you're a writer, because it feels like this could have been a professional essay.

[01:41:11] And I know the widow you're talking about, and I didn't ever consider her as a real-life Serena Joy, but that's pretty interesting. Yeah. That is. Yeah. I think Tammy might make a good podcaster, Jason. I wonder about that. Yeah. Can't she talk? That's the question. Yeah, that is the question. Call in, Tammy. All right. Nicole Cavallo Edwards says,

[01:41:38] Did anyone else think of the women kneeling with Vera Vidala was Rita? I even rewound and swore it looked like her, but I guess it wasn't because they all died, but Vidala. Yeah. And now we see her later, so she knows. Yeah. I like that. Janelle Turk Dennard says, How do you spell Gabbana? Quote. Well done. I wonder if there's an Aunt Dolce. I wonder about that, too.

[01:42:08] Rebecca Mulcahy said, Just wanted to, you know, I caught The Devil Wears Prada joke. Can you spell Gabbana? Yeah. It's so, I saw the new movie that just came out, too. Oh, I haven't seen it. I can't wait. It's really fun. If you like the original, this one. Oh, my gosh. I can't wait. Yeah. It's great. Kiva Cher says, Question. Do we know why some women were executed in the stadium?

[01:42:36] They never explicitly state how they are dividing them up. Apologies if I'm missing something that was in the book. I think they probably had some sort of rationale, but us not knowing made us feel like we were there. Because you don't know why this is happening, and so you don't know if it's going to happen to you or not. But they did call them sinners, so they probably had some.

[01:43:03] And maybe part of it was just to be like, okay, whoever is left is going to see what we just did, and they're going to obey us. That might have been a bit. Yeah. Well, we know at least one of the people in the lineup, the first lineup that Lydia saw, was the transgender woman to ban transgender persons. Yeah. So we know that that was already, I mean, they considered them gender traitors,

[01:43:30] so that's not a surprise that they would do that. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if some of it had a rationale according to who they believe are sinners and deserve to die, and others were just random to keep everyone else obeying. And I think if they thought a woman might be useful either as an aunt or a Martha, then they gave them a choice. It's like, are you going to, you know,

[01:43:59] are you going to cooperate with us? And if the answer was no, that's where they ended. Rose Depati says, from the book, but I don't think it's a spoiler. The aunt's names come from women's product names. There is a new, there is a book, new aunt's user names from. If the show sticks to the book, one of the future choices will be, will make folks guffaw. Okay. Next up, we have a call from Jenny Ryan. Okay.

[01:44:27] This is Jenny calling from Saskatoon. I'm sitting in my car so I can talk at a normal level. Okay. I actually have a lot to say about the Testament. So I'm going to go quick. First of all, my kid walked in while I was watching the ball room scene. And he said, I know what you're watching. And I said, what? And he said, you're watching that Bridgerton show. And at first I thought that was a ridiculous comparison, but then I realized it's the same. So I don't know if any of you have watched Bridgerton,

[01:44:54] but every episode or every season of Bridgerton is sort of framed around the idea that people have to get married. It's the marriage season and the choreographed dancing is very reminiscent of the choreographed dancing that men and women do in Bridgerton. And there's arranged marriages and people have marriage for, um, for reasons other than love. And so the whole thing is, but it's, it's romance. It's love story. It's, it's so crazy because it's the same.

[01:45:24] It's women oppressed in society who have no rights, who only get power by marrying, um, like good allegiances and like making alliances with their, anyway, it's wild how, when he was like, it's Bridgerton. I was like, Oh my God, it is. Okay. Um, the other thing I wanted to tell you. Okay. So one thing is I know that we, uh, I, I, I agree that the, what's happening with Lydia is weird. Um, I won't go into it because I feel like lots of people will, um, comment on that.

[01:45:53] But I think that if they knew she had an abortion, they would have known she was married. So that is weird that they, I don't think she was, I don't think she could have lied about being married, um, unless they were testing her, but they would have known she was married because they would have had all her documentation. Yeah. another thing I wanted to say is I think Hulda is faking it. I don't think she got her period. I think she's faking having her period and something terrible is going to happen when they figure it out because she could have put something. I mean, I don't want to describe how you could fake it, but when they did the test on her,

[01:46:23] no one was, you know, like we can, you can fake a thing. You can do a thing to fake it anyway. Um, and the other final thing I wanted to tell you is that, uh, as some of you know, I am a comic standup comic. And, um, I did a show a couple of years ago, uh, for a government department. Um, and they had brought all the women from that government department together in a room. And the theme of the conference was enough is enough.

[01:46:51] And they were talking about tackling the misogyny within their department. And it was all the women together. And the topics of the conference were things like building resilience and self care. And, um, and I, I asked them, I was like, what are the men doing today? If you're all here learning how to handle misogyny, what are they doing? Are they not learning how to stop being misogynist? And the women all laugh. They're like, no, we're just the ones talking about it.

[01:47:22] Anyway, it was, um, concerning. Uh, but the good news is I told my children about it last night at dinner and they were shocked and appalled and their boys, they felt the men should have been doing something too. So maybe there's hope for us all. Okay. Bye. She has good boys. Yes. Okay. Lisa Marino says, I normally don't have issues or get terribly affected with the show or even Handmaid's Tale.

[01:47:50] There's some tough stuff, stuff to watch in the original show, but it's never really affected me. However, for some reason, this episode was a little bit rough for me, perhaps because it's rooted in so much reality, but it was definitely harder for me to watch the stadium scenes. However, they kind of rewrote history a little bit. Wouldn't Lydia have met with Waterford more than commander Judd? Wasn't it commander Waterford, one of the top commanders at that time? I don't think commander Judd was old enough or a commander of high position at the point, right?

[01:48:20] I mean, I think part of the point with Judd was he wasn't at a high position and that's why he was having to deal with this stuff with. And when all this went down, wasn't she working in a school at any rate? Yeah, she was, she was working in a school in this, in the Testaments too. At any rate, it was a really great episode. I don't know the actress's name who plays Aunt Lydia, but, uh, and out, but she always brings it. This was another great episode, even though it was harder for me to watch. And I look forward to your coverage. Thank you.

[01:48:50] Do we think that Aunt Lydia put Agnes with Garth? Nope, we don't. Certainly seems like that's the direction they're going to go. Also, isn't Commander Judd giving Waterford? Yeah, they kind of look similar. Anyway, that's all I've got for now. Bye. Bye, Lisa. Gina Kell says, hi, all again, you mentioned wanting to hear my thoughts on the stadium and the connections to the Holocaust. Literally, as I was watching, I could not stop thinking about July 1942,

[01:49:19] when French police acting on Nazi orders arrested 13,000 Jews and held them at the Valde de Vivre cycling stadium in Paris. They were there for days without food and weren't permitted to use the bathroom. So the place became disgusting. People urinating and worse, just in the middle of the rows of seats. I think something like that happened down with Hurricane Katrina and the Astrodome. Like, it was a real mess.

[01:49:50] Eventually, they were rounded up and shipped to camps. Only 811 of those victims survived. Many other instances during the Holocaust were similar to this, such as giving up all of their goods, standing in line to see which direction you were sent in, not fully able to comprehend exactly what was going on, especially since many victims of the Holocaust did not understand German and had to make their own assumptions about their fate in any new situation.

[01:50:18] It's hard to study history as much as I have and not believe it could be repeated. It's hard to watch shows and films with dystopian themes and convince other people that it's not far from reality. Something like The Handmaid's Tale or Hunger Games are completely possible as human beings are capable of horrific things. People just don't want to believe that. I have thoughts on Lydia's, quote, misogynists who openly disdain women. One needn't fear them.

[01:50:47] But the men who understand the power of women who want to control it instead of deny it, there's no one more terrifying. I can't help but think about Trump and his administration and how we have slowly seen this play out right in front of our eyes. To get elected and not be thought of as someone who fears or hates women, Trump put many women in positions of power in his regime, i.e. Pam, Christy, Caroline.

[01:51:13] Having women do his dirty work and then allowing them to take the fall and be replaced by men deemed more competent. As if to say, we tried to let the women do the job, but turns out they can't handle it. Raise them up, shoot them down. It's been the patriarchy recipe for centuries. Gilead making all of the women complicit is just another way to blame them when it all goes to shit. One more thought, and I promise I'm done. I'm a high school music teacher. I know. I wear a lot of hats.

[01:51:42] And I have been curious about something that I didn't think of until this series. The girls aren't being taught to read, yet they talk of playing instruments and singing in choirs. Are they allowed to read the sheet music lyrics, or is everything taught by note, by rote listening? Just curious. Thanks for letting me go on and on. Love the pod. Thanks, Gina. Yeah, that was really fascinating, especially about Pam, Christy, and Caroline. I think he actually does that with men, too, but maybe more women. Yeah.

[01:52:13] Yep. And I think, yes, they have to memorize the lyrics. They're not allowed to read. Yeah. Lisa Orkin says, Nick is not coming back. He's dead. Daisy is not Nicole. It worries me that people can't let this go. I have a feeling this may be why our country is in the trouble it's in. I love your show. I can't wait until it's on after each episode. Thank you, Lisa.

[01:52:40] Yeah, I think people who can't let go that Nick's dead are definitely the reason for the problems in this country. Yeah. No, I know that's not what you meant. I mean, we didn't see him die. Have you seen the meme that's the parachute of him and Lawrence jumping out of the plane? That's awesome. Oh, man. That's how things like this get started. That's right. All right.

[01:53:08] Janelle Turk Denard says, I had to rewatch the scene where Aunt Lydia is faced with that terrible test of loyalty in the stadium. And I need to point out that she did pull the trigger. The gun must have had blanks and Commander Judd must have carefully watched her to see what choice she made in the moment. Absolutely.

[01:53:26] Also noted, Vivian was the only victim to be unmasked, and she must have collapsed due to shock or as a response from the loud bang, sleep, food, water, deprivation, or a combination of the above. Yeah. Everyone else got shot. Yeah. Alma Contreras. Hello, Alma. says, Ugh, I really did not need to see Lydia's backstory. I did like the line where she was questioning if she was a cockroach, though.

[01:53:56] I was like, yes, girl, you are a vile cockroach doing this work in the name of God. You know, I've always had a hard time with this dystopian world, and I realized that what bothers me the most is that Gilead people do everything because they believe it's God's will. I am so not cool with people using God to commit so many atrocities in the world. Perhaps this is the reason that I'm so against religion.

[01:54:22] If Gilead was to ever really rise up, I would probably be one of the first women to be murdered. Yeah, I think most of them believe to some degree or another that they're doing the work in the name of God, but I think some of them don't believe it at all, and they're just using that as an excuse. Yeah. But that's just as bad. Okay, we have another call from Rick.

[01:54:53] Hey, guys. Rick from Orlando again with the second part of my feedback, and this is really more on political issues, both the way you guys have been talking about them and the way some of your listeners are talking about them. I think the biggest issue I have is that you seem to have a tendency of stereotyping Trump voters as all being MAGA members or members of the extreme right wing of the Republican Party, sort of the Christian right. And I want to tell you that Trump was not voted in by MAGA.

[01:55:23] He was not voted in by the radical right. Trump was elected really through a consortium of the radical right, but also independents, moderates, and disaffected Democrats. That's how Trump got elected. And I'll make an argument that every presidential election in our lifetime, and I'll use my lifetime as an example, was really controlled mostly by independents and moderates. I was born during the last year of the Truman administration, so I'm probably a little bit older than you guys.

[01:55:52] So I probably lived through 14 presidencies, and I think the vast majority of them were typified by independents and moderates swinging toward one side of the political spectrum or the other to elect a candidate. I think of somebody like Barack Obama, the first real liberal president since FDR, and you wonder how did a liberal Democrat get elected to the presidency? There aren't that many liberal Democrats, relatively speaking, and it's because the independents and moderates supported him.

[01:56:21] And that's how Trump got elected, frankly. He beat Hillary Clinton, and he beat Kamala Harris because independents and moderates were on his side. That's how candidates get elected. So don't stereotype the Trump voters as all being MAGA. They're not. I, for example, am a libertarian. I believe strongly in the Constitution. I believe in the Declaration of Independence. I favor lower taxes. I favor reduced scope of government. I'm opposed to socialism.

[01:56:49] I am opposed to income redistribution. So there's a lot of things that motivate me when I'm voting for a political candidate. And yeah, Donald Trump does not fit all of those characteristics, but he fits them better than Harris, Biden, or Clinton. And that's basically why I voted for Trump. I also want to mention that you guys seem to think that a lot of Trump voters regret voting for him. I'll tell you, in my case, I don't regret voting for Trump. And this is maybe the most important thing I can tell you guys.

[01:57:19] Most Trump voters don't like Trump. I mean, the small radical group, the MAGA supporters and so forth do. But many Trump voters, I'm going to say most Trump voters, don't really care for the man that much personally. He's kind of a jerk. He's kind of a locker room bully. He's definitely a narcissist. There are many things about Trump that are not what you want to see in your ideal president. He's certainly not somebody you want to have representing the country. But here's the big secret. Here's the big message that nobody really seems to think much about.

[01:57:49] You don't vote for a president that you like the best. You often vote for a president you dislike the least. You vote for the lesser of two evils. But very specifically, you vote for the president that you think is more likely to carry out policies that you believe in. That's why I voted for Trump. Has he done everything right? No. Has he done things I disagree with? Absolutely. He's made many, many mistakes. But don't for a minute think I regret voting for him.

[01:58:14] Because looking back, I would still rather have him in the White House than a big spending, socialistic, leaning Democrat like Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, or Hillary Clinton. So I wanted to make sure that you understand that. I think you guys have a tendency to stereotype the Trump voters a little bit. I think you guys have a little bit of a tendency to be condescending toward Trump voters. I know there was one episode where it was either Daphne or Wendy said something like, you know, it's okay, Trump voters. I know a lot of you regret your decision.

[01:58:44] You can make mistakes. You're allowed to do that. And I just want to tell you that even Trump voters who are disappointed in him, even Trump voters that think he has made a lot of mistakes, probably still prefer him over the opposition. So, yeah, it's true that his popularity has gone down. His disapproval rating has gone up. But you know what? That's true of any second-term president. It happened with Barack Obama. His ratings went down in 2010 also.

[01:59:09] The big message I want to convey to you, though, this is really very important. A lot of your listeners and even you guys are trying to compare Gilead with our current society. And I don't accept that comparison. Gilead was the result of a hostile military takeover. In fact, all dictatorships in the world today, whether you look at Russia or Red China or North Korea or Iran or Cuba, look at all the dictatorships.

[01:59:36] They all came about because of some kind of hostile militaristic takeover. And those countries control their voters in a very strong autocratic manner. The United States has free elections. We are one of the few countries in the world with free elections. And Donald Trump was elected as a result of a free democratic process. And I would urge you not to forget that. He got a plurality of the popular vote. He got a majority of the electoral vote. His party carried both bodies in Congress. And that was through elections.

[02:00:06] So I know you guys don't like the fact that he's in power. But, you know, it's because your peers voted for him. And that is a radically different situation from Gilead and any of the dictatorships that exist in the world today. Anyway, I don't want to run too long on this. I just wanted to make a point that I don't think has been represented on your show. And I'd like to have at least this point of view expressed at least once so your listeners can be exposed to it. I think you guys do a great job. I'm going to continue listening. Again, this is Rick from Orlando. Thanks.

[02:00:37] Can I say something? Interesting. Jason and I had a discussion off the podcast. And I think this guy is right. And I think this demonstrates like, and I don't want to get into it too much. Like what I was trying to say is like, I know, Jason, that you've talked about how Trump's approval rating is going down by a lot. I can't imagine that it wouldn't. It's the worst of any president ever. But yeah. Yeah.

[02:01:07] But there are people like Rick, and I'm not trying to disparage him at all. I really am not. I appreciate him calling in and giving his opinion. But there are people like Rick who are just going to take this point of view, no matter what the reality and what's in front of him and what's happened in the news.

[02:01:31] And, you know, he still thinks that this administration is about less spending. Yeah. Which is, I just, you know, I can't wrap my head around it completely. But I do believe that there are still a lot of people that they don't like Trump, but they're not going to vote for Harris or Newsom in the next election. And I hope there's enough people that are turned around.

[02:02:02] I truly do. Well, I mean, I think most voters are really sensitive towards the economy. And so I think that's going to decide it if nothing else will. I would love it if they were more sensitive to saving democracy and what's morally right or not. But if it's what it takes is high gas prices, that's better than not, you know. Yeah, I totally get it. Yeah.

[02:02:31] And I do appreciate his point of view because I feel like there's a lot of people that feel this way. I mean, I know people that think that even in this, that Trump is good for the stock market and I got a lot of money in the stock market. So that's what I'm going for. I heard this call and I kind of, you know, wrote out some notes. Okay. Go for it. I also appreciate the call. My first response was to get pretty triggered, honestly, Rick.

[02:03:00] But then when I thought about it, you were very respectful and you're right. I'm glad to have another perspective and to hear what goes on in the head of somebody who still supports Trump. So I appreciate you calling in and talking about it respectfully. And I, instead of just saying you guys suck and turning away and I agree, of course, not every Trump voter is MAGA.

[02:03:25] There's just conservatives, libertarians, anti-tax voters, independents, moderates. Um, the question for me is never, has never been about whether Trump voters are like cartoon villains or something. It's whether policy preferences can justify supporting someone who tried to overturn an election and who consistently tests the boundaries of constitutional governments. Like for me, trying to overturn a democratic election is disqualifying period.

[02:03:55] And so when you say you, you believe strongly in the constitution, Trump publicly argued on social media that this supposed election fraud quote allows for the termination of all rules, regulations and articles, even those found in the constitution. And then when reporters asked him directly, whether he had an obligation as president to uphold the constitution, he said, I don't know.

[02:04:18] And so, you know, support for a constitutional democracy at some point has to matter more than whether you like prefer some tax policy or something like that. On spending, uh, UC Democrats has the big spending party, but the federal deficit is currently hovering around 1.8 to 1.9 trillion dollars, which is nearly 6% of our total GDP. That's well above the 50 year historic average of 3.8.

[02:04:44] And that level of deficit spending historically is only associated with deep recessions, major wars or national emergencies, not standard peacetime governance. On the U S not being Gilead, you said Gilead came from a coup, a military coup, and Trump was elected through free democratic process. You're right. Gilead's not a one-to-one comparison for with the U S and we've always said that.

[02:05:09] Um, we still have functioning courts for the most part, opposition media protests, things like that. But the lesson of the handmaid's tale isn't to watch out for one sudden military coup. The whole point of dystopian fiction is that you don't wait until the boots are on everyone's necks to notice the danger. You then it's too late. You notice the warning signs while people are still telling you everything's fine. Yeah. Warning signs like military leaders that have spent their entire lives in the military are,

[02:05:38] are, you know, jumping ship. Yeah. And, and, you know, you watch how rights are degraded, how institutions are neutered or captured, how religious justifications get fused with state power. Like we were talking about before how women's autonomy is restricted, how people just keep normalizing each step because it hasn't become full-blown Gilead yet. Margaret Atwood herself has made that exact distinction. She said, America is, isn't literally Gilead.

[02:06:07] We're not living in Gilead yet, but there's Gilead like symptoms going on. And that's what we're talking about. Warning signs for a lot of women watching this shows. Uh, it's not abstract fear. We've seen reproductive rights rolled back in major ways in the U S we've seen, uh, politicians and judges invoking explicitly religious read reasoning around women's bodily autonomy.

[02:06:28] The Trump administration has actively rolled back privacy protections to allow law enforcement to access private health records of women seeking out of state medical care. While Trump's allies openly push for federal tracking of pregnancies and abortions. Uh, like when the state starts monitoring women's bodies and data, that's not just a policy disagreement. That's a literal blueprint of Gilead and, and, um, you know, dictatorships and authoritarian systems don't always begin with tanks in the street.

[02:06:58] Adolf Hitler didn't become Germany's leader by staging a coup. He came to power through a legal political process after Nazi electoral success. So, you know, modern democratic backsliding almost always happens from within where elected leaders gradually weaken the democratic mechanisms that put them there. Like Hugo Chavez or Nicholas Maduro of Venezuela. They didn't start with a military overthrow. They use elections to slowly dismantle checks and balances.

[02:07:26] Even Putin was elected before consolidating power. So we just think that Trump is pushing American democracy in a more authoritarian direction. Every chance he get, he's already an authoritarian to the, whatever degree he can get away with it. And he's always pushing the line more and more. He tried to illegally overturn the 2020 election. His former defense secretary, Mark Esper said that during the 2020 protests, he literally asked about, uh, he said about American citizens.

[02:07:54] Can you just shoot them, just shoot them in the legs or something? Um, and he disputes a lot of what former officials say about him, but, uh, multiple top tier officials from his own administration warn us about his authoritarian instincts. You should listen to that. He, his, his, he regularly praises foreign dictators just now he's over in China glazing. She, you know, uh, she, Jing P he, is that his name? Uh, he, he, his movement.

[02:08:24] But. He, he, he, he liked him a lot of time, um, the generation of people who he spoke to, uh, uh, but he, he was, he always came to us. He was very, he, I'm the president of the United States. He believed to see that. He looked like by the whole state, the or, uh, he was currently in the United States and in the United States of Chinaadi to make up his head. And he said, he's going to take a nice run on the world for America. And I think that after all he had been here, he was a guy who was a candidate for his own and his three business in the world.

[02:08:51] royal family for executive travel. His crypto ventures where people can essentially buy access through cryptic channels. Look at the White House ballroom project that was promised to cost taxpayers, quote, not one dime, but now suddenly it's $1 billion public funding request under, like, oh, it's the security part of it. We, you know, that doesn't count. He demanded a $10 billion payment from the U S treasury in response to his tax returns being

[02:09:17] released when he was a private citizen. Now he's reportedly saying he would settle for $1.7 billion. That would come right from our tax dollars and be okay. Okay. By a justice department, that's clearly under Trump's thumb. Uh, he claims that money would go to charity, but that's a man who was literally ordered by a federal judge to pay $2 million in damages for legally dissolving and misusing funds from his own personal charity foundation. As far as immigration goes, you can

[02:09:42] talk about the bait, how to set and enforce border policy, but man, I mean, when immigration enforcement that relies on massed, heavily armed, seemingly poorly trained agents, aggressive street detentions, weak due process and mass deportation policies that risks sending people to dangerous foreign prisons and other human rights catastrophes before they've had a meaningful day in court. I can't stand up for that. You know, no, no one should stand up for that. And so all that said,

[02:10:09] I do appreciate your call, Rick. I agree with you that not every Trump voter is MAGA and not every Trump voter personally loves Trump, but where I disagree is that the idea that because he was elected, the authoritarian concern is somehow off the table because democracies can erode through elections. Leaders can come to power legally and then weaken the institutions that limit them, which Trump absolutely has done on multiple fronts. It's not theoretical history gives examples

[02:10:35] of where that's happened. And, and I hear you that voters make trade-offs and vote for the lesser of two evils, but some things like trying to dismantle constitutional norms should be disqualifying. Even if you prefer their tax code or regulatory policy, you know, you still got to vote for the Democrat in that case, Rick, or else it's no good. Um, the things that Trump has done and continues to push for are scary as fuck. And that's my Ted talk.

[02:11:02] Yeah. And I think, yeah, Trump voters, MAGA or not are responsible for what's happened. And if they don't change it somewhere down the road, they continue to be responsible. Yeah, for sure. Especially now that we can see these things that people need to open their eyes

[02:11:24] and see what's going on. And also dude, uh, inflation is higher than it's been in three years and rising. What, when it was coming down under Biden fast, uh, we're in an unnecessary war. Gas prices are up like farmers are hurting. He's a fuck up. He's a total fuck up. He, he, he bankrupted companies. You know, he's just treats it all like his own slush fund. He's a,

[02:11:52] as you said, he's a narcissist that matters. Uh, cause he's got gold statues of him stuff. Yeah. Up and stuff like that. Yeah. That's, that's annoying, but it also just permeates every policy decision that he makes. It's he's, he's trying to bilk the United States. He doesn't care about us. He said straight up. He doesn't think about, yeah, he has built it. He doesn't think about, you know, he doesn't care about you and it's, that's going to manifest in real ways. It is already.

[02:12:18] And we don't even know what he's built it for because nobody would dare look into it. At least not right now. I mean, a lot of it's clearly visible and people still don't care like $1.7 billion from the treasury. Right. I mean, that hasn't happened yet, but that's what he's trying to do. Right. It's certainly before the end of his term. Yeah. So he's not, he's not good in any way.

[02:12:43] As far as I can see. Thank you. All right. Who's next? No. Did you have anything to add? Daphne? You didn't say anything. Um, this is what I, what I have to say. I think I've said on this podcast before that I don't believe, I believe MAGA is a subset of Republican voters or an offshoot of Republican voters. I don't believe that all Republicans are

[02:13:10] MAGA. I believe that MAGA is very much a radicalized group of voters that have conservative views. Um, I also, uh, I, while I really appreciate that he said to add his voicemail, um, and the fact that he

[02:13:35] was diplomatic about it and it wasn't like some I've seen or heard. Yeah. Um, I definitely appreciate that. Um, you did a better job than I did, Rick in that regard. Yeah. I, I guess I feel really

[02:13:52] close to the situation when it comes to my family has been destroyed by belief, the MAGA movement. Um, this con conflict over. Yeah, there's a lot in it. It's just a difference. It's, it goes beyond. I feel like this has gone beyond the difference of a political opinion. And while I do believe,

[02:14:21] and I get it, I do think that Trump was elected by a lot of one issue voters who decided that they wanted to go in that direction because they didn't like abortion, like they were against abortion and they thought he would get rid of it or they want the stock market to go up. And so they voted for that, for that reason, like there are people that voted for him because they had one

[02:14:48] reason or another or multiple reasons to vote for him. In addition to the MAGA base, in addition to conservative voters who thought he would return the country to a more, um, you know, conservative place for them. And that's, that's what they wanted. Um, that said, I've seen how it's affected people. And I know

[02:15:13] that I've said this before that there are connections, like six degrees of separation. That's where it starts. And then it gets closer and closer. I've seen how things have affected people like companies that are closing down and people are losing their jobs because the tariffs have just made it too difficult, um, for companies to operate here, which is kind of the opposite effect. I think of what was presented to the public. Um, there are just lines,

[02:15:43] I think that have been crossed over the last couple of years, like, especially in the last year that I don't like Wendy. I don't always agree with everything that the Democrats do. I don't, I'm more of an independent voter, but I also can't sit by and be unaffected by the things that I'm seeing. And it's not that I'm only watching one media outlet. And we haven't, I mean, like, can we even talk about

[02:16:10] January 6th and how he pardoned all those people? Yeah. Yeah. Some of them went on to like molest kids and stuff. I mean, I just don't, I don't get it. It's totally corrupt. Yeah. I don't understand. I don't understand it. I guess, you know, you, when he went into his first term, I remember thinking, okay, I'm going to give him a couple of months to see what he does that,

[02:16:39] and give him the chance. So the benefit of the doubt, he proved every reservation that I had in every bit of anxiety I had in the first few months of his first term. And then the second term has been insane. It has been crazy. And I knew it would be. I knew it would be. Cause they learned a lot from the first term. It's very different this time. He was prepared for this term.

[02:17:05] He fired all the Lawrences and got all the freaking, you know, whoever the bad ones are in there. Water food. Yeah. Yeah. Got all the. Breads. When I was in Spain, we had multiple people like ask us first, they kind of test you out, you know, but if you give the, the, you know, if you reassure them that you're not MAGA, they ask you like, they think we have the answers of why this happened, you know? And it's like,

[02:17:33] we don't have the answers either. But my one Spanish tour guide just said the best thing. And she said that like, you guys were always infants, you know, because we are, the United States is an infant compared to Europe. She said, but now you're in your toddler phase. It was great. Well, then I don't think we should be getting out. I think we need to be potty trained. Can I just say that? Potty training needs to happen.

[02:18:03] Yeah. And I have more thoughts. I could probably go on, but maybe we should just get back to the show. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we are at two, two hours and 29 minutes of recording. So, all right. Yeah. Matt King says, great episode. We get to see aunt Lydia's origin story and a little of the world. Justice Gilead was about to take over America.

[02:18:28] Seeing this show, she handled the trauma of the violence from the Jacobites and quickly realized she needed to make a place for herself in the new order to survive. It was fascinating. She really did make that place for herself. She did. And became a crazy person. Okay. I mean, I still, I can't, I can't help, but I got to remind myself how she was in season one,

[02:18:54] you know, and be like, can I just excuse that? I don't know. I do wonder now that we're, what we're seeing is if she actually thought taking Janine's eye was the best way she could protect Janine. I think there is a chance that that's how she reasoned it. Like if I don't do something really drastic with this girl, she's going to get herself killed, but who knows? Anyway,

[02:19:20] Ty Miller says, Hey, Wendy, Daphne and Jason. It's been a while. Still love the podcast and the testaments. I'm always amazed in how this show contrasts the beauty and ugliness of Gilead on aunt Lydia. She's been one of the most compelling characters in the show, her and Serena, where she's so complex and you never know what exactly is her motive. I think we get more understanding of her from this added flashback. She lies somewhere between pious and surviving. That's a great way to put it in the handmaid's tale. Her flashback revolved more around her

[02:19:49] beliefs and maybe how she became more rigid with them where this episode shows her confusion in regards to what's going on, but she knows she has to survive. She is pious, but maybe not an extremist. However, she is smart, composed, and most importantly, calculated her rationing, her food and conversation with Judd show this. She figured out how to survive quickly. And from day one show that she can outsmart the best of them. I do think she truly believes that she's done her best to

[02:20:14] protect her girls, whether they're handmaids or plums. She was willing to kill Vivian slash Vidala to live. So she may justify the harsher punishments as simply not murder. That's kind of what I was just saying. She was willing to go as far as murder when she had no choice, but can at least now choose not to kill. Also in the handmaid's tale, that's a great, yeah, I think that might be right. Also in the handmaid's tale, her task was to break the handmaids who are grown women ripped from their

[02:20:40] lives. This would call for a more volatile way of establishing her command versus dealing with young girls who have now grown up into this established society. It's crazy to see that her and Vidala have such a long history. Was Vidala in Boston too? I wonder if Vidala feels any loyalty to Lydia as Lydia could frame it as she knew there was no bullet or is Vivian going to play the long game in revenge? That would be my guess. I also wonder if Vidala makes sure the ants have their

[02:21:08] coffee. Your pot is more precious than rubies. W. Ty Miller. Well, thank you. Oh my goodness. That was a good one. Lee from Lily Dale says, thank you, Wendy, Daphne, and Jason for your comprehensive discussions after each episode of The Testaments. I'm a huge handmaids fan, both the book and the series. I read The Testaments a few years ago,

[02:21:33] so there's a lot I've forgotten, but have been soaking into Bruce Miller's adaptation every week. I'm from Melbourne, Australia, and I found your podcast after I realized that a brilliant podcast called Eyes on Gilead by Australian TV channel SBS was not discussing The Testaments as the series only airs on Disney. I have been desperate to find a companion podcast, and you have not only helped me

[02:22:00] unpack every episode, you brought a new dimension to my watching. Keeping up the political chat. Keep up the political chat. It's refreshing to listen to Americans speak their truth about your current president. We are far from the current regime and yet so close, sadly, sometimes. It also highlights how Margaret Atwood's book transcends time. Every aspect of her writing is as relevant and feels as current as it was when she wrote The Handmaid's Tale as well as The Testaments. Will we ever

[02:22:29] really make real change in this world or will history continue to repeat? I hope not. Something I loved, in stadium when Hulda had to help punish Shunammite, there were close-ups of the girls' faces and their brilliant acting, showing how incredible their friendship is. They were communicating with their eyes, like they had learned how to do this for years. Hulda saying, I'm sorry, I don't want to do this,

[02:22:55] and Shunammite saying, I know you don't. I have a few predictions for the series. I don't think that Aunt Lydia will offer Garth as a husband to Agnes. To make sure that Agnes learns the harsh life of Gilead, she will offer him to one of her friends, possibly Becca. Best friends are forbidden and this will try to tear them apart. Becca doesn't have a powerful father, so this match could suit. My big

[02:23:21] prediction for Daisy, that she will be given a choice to escape Gilead through the help of Mayday. Daisy will give up this opportunity for Becca. She knows that Becca is in love with Agnes, that she will self-sabotage her impending marriage and not survive the world of Gilead. This is like June had been offered many times. Remember the end of season two when June let Emily escape instead of her with baby Holly, Nicole. I have thought this since Becca confessed

[02:23:48] her love of Agnes to Daisy when she was drunk. I think Bruce has worked so hard on continuing his version of Daisy. He's not going to get rid of her so quickly. Her and Agnes have a lot of growing together. Plus, there is an interesting snippet in one of the trailers that looks like Daisy is wearing plum. So surely there is a continuation for a longer storyline. Thank you, my new forbidden

[02:24:16] besties. Keep up the excellent work. Leave from Lilydale. I'm impressed with your pronunciation. Yeah, me too. I was just thinking that. And leave from Lilydale sounds like it would. It's in Westeros. Yes. Writing to you from Westeros. I like that prediction about Daisy giving up a chance to escape to help

[02:24:40] Becca. But I maybe I'm just being a nitpicker here. But June, June could have left to she stayed because she wanted to try to get her daughter out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. She had that option in season two, I think. All right. Lemon Price from Savannah says, Hey, for Lydia's backstory. Remember the Handmaid's Tale is told through June's perspective. Lydia probably does seem

[02:25:06] like a true believer. While this voiceover was through Lydia's point of view. Two radically different perspectives. Just a thought. Lemon Price. I agree. Yeah, I agree, too. I mentioned earlier on this episode that, you know, we're seeing things through Agnes's perspective, which is probably different than I mean, everyone has a perspective in it. They're different. I guess. I mean, it makes me think of the movie Weapons where they showed the same interaction

[02:25:35] from two different people's perspective. And the second time through, they actually sounded different because it seemed more threatening to the person being accosted. And the first time the person who was doing the threatening actually was kind of scared. So it just depended. So it could be something like that. But if it's just like you stick a camera in a room and watch what happens, then it's sort of harder to I'd like to go back and watch now and see if it tracks

[02:26:02] that, you know, how Lydia acts. But anyway, next one is comes from an avid Handmaid's Tale fan who says, good evening. I've been listening to you guys since the Handmaid's Tale. I've read the books and seen the series a few times. This is my first time writing it. Oh, nice. I wanted to say that when I saw the title of the stadium, I was thinking that this episode would be about Lydia and the testament's depiction of how the ants came to be. I was horrified watching it as I also agree, the reality of the show

[02:26:29] seems like it gets more real each day. My main point is that there were so many parallels to the Holocaust with the women being rounded up and then their belongings being taken away. When the guardian leaned into the woman and said, don't worry, you'll get your belongings back after. That was really spot on. As in many testimonies that I've watched, Holocaust survivors have indicated this is what they were both told and told to others arriving at the death camps. Holocaust survivors often say that they didn't want the people to panic and they had been terrorized by the

[02:26:59] guards and the whole system themselves to be compliant just to survive. Just like we see here with Lydia. When Lydia decides in the room with Judd to join the team for survival, it shows her emotional intellect and how she can think fast and with a level head. As we know from both the book and the show, Lydia had a history of being a judge in her previous career before she was a teacher. I never forget this small detail when I watch Lydia. She seems like a judge. Yeah. I also want to say,

[02:27:25] she even has the robe. Uh, I also want to say that the other correlation to the Holocaust is the stadium itself with a French velodrome divay Veldiv roundup. This was when the French authorities rounded up 13,000 plus Jewish families for several days with little food or water. The families were then sent on to death camps. What to remember is regular people helped with every part of the Holocaust.

[02:27:50] And this happens every time there is a historic tragic period. It can happen to anyone experiencing desperation. We have to remember people have to decide life or death decisions in those moments like Lydia. This is what makes Lydia such a dynamic character and in doubt can make you forget in a moment that she is brutal, a collaborator and also human. What a great episode. Thank you for all

[02:28:15] the discussion. And I look forward to hopefully many seasons signed in avid handmaid's tale fan. That was really powerful. And it just made me think, yeah, let's not get to this time when we have to decide life or death situations, whether we want to collaborate with this bullshit. Let's decide not to collaborate now. Yeah. The next one is from Leah and she says, hello, I am one of your new

[02:28:41] listeners brought to the show by testaments. I knew I was in the right place when you openly discuss how it relates to our current dystopian hellscape. The latest episode stadium was definitely reminiscent of the most anxiety inducing parts of the handmaid's tale, a show I still have not seen all of. It was too close to home after he got elected. Anyway, my question is, do you have a feeling that

[02:29:06] on Lydia is planning to marry Garth off to Becca or anyone other than Agnes? I do. Absolutely. Yeah. As soon as she made him eligible, I knew it couldn't be that easy. This way she can kill two birds, breaking out the too close friendship of Becca and Agnes while also punishing Agnes for asking in the first place. After all, the patriarchy has been pitting women against each other in both social and workplace settings forever, as it knows we are harder to control when united.

[02:29:36] This is also shown in this episode when they break the friendship trust between Lydia and Vidala by making her choose to shoot her. Thanks for a great listen. I look forward to it after every episode. Still hopeful for our future, Leah. Thank you, Leah. It's so true though. Like, I think we've talked about this. I know we've talked about it in book club that women are often pitted against women, especially in the workplace. And that's happened. Like I have experience with that.

[02:30:06] At various jobs. All right. Now we're moving into some book spoiler feedback. So if you didn't read the books and you don't want to be spoiled, thanks for hanging and you're still listening. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Rosemary says in the book, in order to allow Agnes and Daisy to escape Gilead, Becca hides in a way that leads to her death. She knowingly sacrificed her

[02:30:31] life. A noble decision. However, Becca is not a budding lesbian in the book. The show needs to change the events for her character. Otherwise we end up with yet another bury your gaze story. I suspect some fans will bail on the show and it will be crucified in the media for using that tired trope. I mean, I don't want to see Becca kill herself because that would be really sad. Uh,

[02:30:57] I don't know if I'm wondering about this, but my first thought was in Gilead, that story would probably make more sense just because they consider gay people to be quote gender traitors. Right. So it, it sort of fits into the story as, as a tragedy that would happen in Gilead. Don't you guys, or what do you guys think?

[02:31:20] I don't know. I think Rebecca's gayness has been pretty subtle in the show so far. So I don't know. I'm just saying she is gay seemingly. And if she ends up dying, I don't know if I would write that off as another bury your gaze thing just because it's more of a point of look what can happen in

[02:31:50] a fucked up theocracy like this. But I don't know. I wouldn't debate that too hard with anybody who didn't agree. I know I'm, I'm like, I, I love Becca's character. Yeah. I really do. Me too. Yeah. Okay. Amy Bower says so far we, we've learned a few things about commander Judd. His first name is Michael. He's a good guy in pretty performative ways, like checking the gross commanders,

[02:32:21] when they were like making lewd comments about the girls at the ball. Um, he said, don't talk like that reassuring Agnes, but can be manipulative, like playing Lydia and Vidal against each other. He's married to a literal child. Penny was in school with our plums, but he himself is considered young for an influential commander in the books. Commander Judd's full name is B Frederick Judd.

[02:32:48] He's older. One of the architects of Gilead and on his fourth or fifth young wife, by the time of the testaments, he's super powerful. And basically the Himmler of Gilead, these appear to be two different characters. It'll be interesting to see if they make them literally different people like Michael is Frederick son born pre Gilead, or they're basically the same person, but they decided to make a bit less evil old man and use a different name to avoid confusion with Waterford. So there wouldn't be two Freds. My guess is that's what it is. I mean,

[02:33:18] they kind of did the same with Serena. She's older in the book. Yeah. I had problems with that. I remember in the beginning of Handmaid's Tale. Yeah. All right. Amber Lovo says, hello, hello. We're almost done the whole season and I am finally getting around to sending, sending in feedback. Whoops. So as a TV show, I think the testaments is great. The imagery is fantastic. The school, the houses, the colors bring me right back to Gilead.

[02:33:47] Seeing the world from the girls growing up in Gilead is really fascinating. The casting choices hit the target most of the time. Daisy, for example, is exactly what I expected her to look like. More on this later. Agnes was also better than I expected. However, a lot of the commanders and aunts are way too young. Judd and Esty. Personally, I truly enjoy the voiceover narration because I feel

[02:34:12] like this brings me back to the book. It's written as a journal or witness account, and it reminds me of how June sometimes had voiceovers in The Handmaid's Tale. I knew as a book reader I was going to struggle with the adaption. I knew changes, significant changes, had to be made. However, I am struggling with a lot of these. I understand that they wanted to skip ahead to the part of the

[02:34:37] story where Daisy and Agnes were together, and with the timeline, this was going to be really hard. I expected the story to start out similar to the first few seasons of Game of Thrones. They had multiple characters and stories happening in different parts of the world, or Witcher started off in two different timelines. This worked well. Some characters never met until a few seasons went by, as in Game of Thrones, or never met at all, even though they still managed to be

[02:35:05] on screen in the same episodes every week. This is what I was expecting from the Testaments to preserve the storyline, or maybe starting from the end and then jumping back to the beginning. As book readers know, they didn't start in the same timeline. Let's talk about Daisy for a minute. The decision to change everything about her except her name. Why? They should have just given her a different name. I love her character. I love seeing the Pearl Girls from this angle. I have a hard time believing that

[02:35:35] they would ever allow fresh Pearl Girls to be that close to the precious flowers of the commander's daughters. Seriously, to me, I have a hard time believing they would be involved in the school. Also, the Pearl Girls are set up to become wives. What? Econo wives, but still wives. That's not how the program worked from my understanding of the book. Weren't the Pearl Girls basically junior aunts

[02:36:01] in training, or am I misremembering? Again, Daisy is amazing. I am captivated by seeing her struggle as a new person in Gilead. That last episode where she was being interrogated had me honestly concerned for her safety. Watching her navigate being a spy and a teenager with a lot of trauma of her own, while also trying to get revenge for her parents, it was huge seeing that she went into Gilead

[02:36:26] willingly. But at the end of the day, this isn't Daisy, so why keep her name? And I have the same exact feeling with Garth. They should have changed his name. There was no logical reason in my mind for keeping it. It's kind of lazy writing in my book. On the other hand, they completely changed Ada, but at least they changed her name too, or that is they have several characters playing her role,

[02:36:52] and they left the name behind. Was she June? I don't think so from reading the book. Was she Linda the Waitress or Rita? This option didn't even cross my mind, but it's great. They changed the story to work better on screen, and it's wonderful. Becca is an interesting adaption. I'm very curious on what they are doing with her story and who she is. Book readers know her relationship with her dad,

[02:37:19] Grove, and although I don't want to see that play out, I feel like if they don't play that part of the story, it'll miss a huge catalyst in the story. Having her as a queer teen in love with her best friend definitely gives enough to the story to make her trajectory, if they keep it, make sense. But the Grove stuff was a big piece of the story. I had a hard time with the ball because it really

[02:37:44] didn't seem like something I would see in Gilead. Too many chances for bad things to happen to those precious flowers. The period celebration is both disgusting and awesome. It's beautiful to see it as such a huge deal for the girls. The bell ringing and the joy and the excitement, it's glorious, but we all know why it's being celebrated, and that's so sad. Their entire worth is based on getting a period,

[02:38:11] and the second they get that, they're basically, like Agnes said, a prized pig. I have so much more to say, but I could probably do my own podcast episode breaking down each episode of the show and all my different thoughts, likes, hopes, and dislikes. But I'm trying not to take too long. Sorry, Jason, I'm sure this will take longer than three minutes to read. A few small points left. Why did Lydia keep her name? The other aunts are named after beauty products and had to change their

[02:38:41] names. If Becca is dealing with Grove, like in the book, her affection and interactions with him at the ball isn't uncommon. These predatory men groom girls into thinking they're the most special girl in the world. My interactions with my dad always looked like that too. No one would have ever guessed the unfortunate truth, and no one believed me when I told them the truth because I was a daddy's

[02:39:07] girl. It wasn't until I was 15 when it occurred to me that what he did wasn't right and that I had been abused. He also used religion as a scapegoat. I'm stoked to see how they play out Lydia's story. I think skipping the think tank was regretful, but it would have been very uncomfortable. The stadium episode was so hard to watch, but I do hope we get more of her perspective. I love Ann Dowd.

[02:39:36] I honestly have no clue where the story is going. I know they're only sort of following the book's blueprint. I'm giving it all in separating the book from the TV show. I truly believe they took the first book and added to a basic story, whereas here they took little things from the book and added a whole new story to it. So keeping the literature separate from the TV show is a skill I need to master. I'm

[02:40:02] trying, I swear. Not the right podcast, but only in Gilead would spilling tea after being tripped feel like a mistake so big your life is over. Only in Gilead would a group of teenage girls revel in watching someone get their hand cut off in their school cafeteria. As always, thanks for the time you take to build this community, and I hope y'all are doing well. Thank you so much, Amber. Thank you so much, Amber.

[02:40:32] And I'm sorry that happened to you, Amber. And that gives me some color because I've been saying, oh, maybe Becca's father wasn't molesting her, but as Wendy's been saying, sometimes it can look like that, and you just sort of said the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, and I think we might never know the truth. Yeah. I think... I agree.

[02:40:58] Maybe, you know, maybe it's supposed to be subtle, or maybe it's like the think tank, and they just decided it was too much for what they were going for. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, hearing all this, Amber, I mean, my way of being with all of this is to just treat them as separate things and appreciate them for what they are. Yeah.

[02:41:26] That's what I do, and I love the show. So I don't worry about how much like the book it is or not, but you know, other people do it differently. Yeah. And now we have a call from Christina Gonzalez. Hi, Podcastica team. This is Christina from Wyoming. I'm a blue dot and a red state. I think my comment is going to be more for the book section of the episode, because I would

[02:41:53] hate to give away any spoilers, but I want to lead us all in a collective deep breath. Oh, because I know me for one. I'm so hungry for righteous justice that the mentality of how season one of the handmaid's tale went through the whole book. It was so open-ended because June was still this creature that was alive and, you know, was going to kick some ass.

[02:42:21] And then we have the other remaining seasons of the handmaid's tale to slow roll more justice. And now we're in the state with the Testaments where the ending of the book was that righteous justiceness. And I think we're all so effing hungry for it because of absolutely shitty, unbelievably hellscape government that we're in right now that we all are so thirsty for righteous justice.

[02:42:49] And so I just want to lead us into a collective deep breath to like enjoy what the writers and the directors and the producers have in store for us because we want that slow burn. We want to be edged into righteous justiceness. Thank you so much for everything you all do, for the comments, for the listener feedback, for talking about politics. I feel so heard and seen with your words and insight. So thank you. Thank you. Keep it going, guys.

[02:43:18] Yeah. Get us there, Bruce. Yeah. Yeah. I hope this series gets to play out exactly the way they want and lead to a major catharsis by the end, please. Yes, absolutely. Well said, Christina. Well, our final piece of feedback is from Tammy. She says, I think Lydia is orchestrating Agnes and Garst marriages for the greater good of Mayday mission.

[02:43:47] I haven't figured out the strategy yet, but I believe there is one and it's ultimately for Agnes's protection. I believe Lydia is in contact with June and she wouldn't be allowed to put Agnes in harm's way or to actually marry her off, especially to that horrible abuser, Weston. I remember Luke being very afraid of that for her. Will Daisy tip Agnes off to Weston's past? Will Agnes be recruited to be an aunt?

[02:44:13] I do find that a bit difficult to believe, especially if she's a breeder. But I do think that somehow she will be protected. I could see a conflict arising between Weston and Lydia if she does keep Agnes from marrying him or see Lydia doing some favor for Weston to allow him to have Agnes, although I can't think of an explanation she would give. And also, why was he put in the mix in the first place?

[02:44:40] Lydia always plays the long game, so I do believe there is a method to this madness. Thanks again for the great podcast. Can't wait to see how this plays out. Tammy. I mean, if this goes like the book, then I keep thinking about this. We haven't really talked about it on the podcast, but Agnes is going to end up an aunt. And if it's really like the book, she'll be an aunt for quite a long time. Yeah.

[02:45:07] I feel weird thinking of the show going that way since it has been sort of like 90210 and Gilead, you know? That would be so different. I mean, or there might be like time gaps between the seasons, maybe. Yeah. Like kind of like House of the Dragon. But it's just such a different setting, you know? I mean, they might change it up. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, everyone, for all of your feedback. As always, we really appreciate it. Fantastic.

[02:45:38] Send it in. We have two episodes left. So nine and then the finale. Yeah. We're going to record nine before it airs. So there won't be any feedback on that episode. And then for the finale, we're going to wait and record that one after it airs, like a couple days after. So you'll have a couple of days to get your feedback in for it to be in the episode where we talk about the finale.

[02:46:03] All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next time on the podcast, we'll be discussing The Testament Season 1, Episode 9, Marat Saad.

[02:46:30] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And don't forget to check out our Facebook group, The Handmaid's Tale Mayday Group, which we welcome all you guys to come and join and talk about the show in there. Your comments may end up in a podcast. The link of the show notes for that. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening.

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