The Testaments S1E8 "Broken"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcastica Drone So, um, do you want to know what sex is? Yes, I do. Tell me everything. Well, everything's quite a lot in this case, but, um, men have a penis.

[00:00:28] And it gets hard when they get turned on. Well, like, aroused. And when it's hard, they can insert into a woman's vagina like a rod. And then, eventually, it will release this liquid. Basically, microscopic cells are in this liquid. And sometimes, these cells can swim up through the woman and fertilize an egg. That's how a baby's made.

[00:00:55] Wow. Honestly. Wow. Swim up. Rod of flesh. You must think I'm very stupid. Swim up?

[00:01:15] Hi, everybody. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason. And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast: The Testaments.

[00:01:46] This week, we're covering The Testaments, Season 1, Episode 8, Broken. Yes, we are. What did you guys think, like, off the top? I thought it was the funniest episode in, you know, in between all the cringe and horror, the usual stuff. But there were just so many moments. Really? Yeah, you'll see when I talk about it. Okay.

[00:02:15] I thought there were a lot of cringe moments. Yeah, there were. There were some really upsetting moments, of course. Okay. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't funny sometimes. I think the cringe, we're now getting used to it. Like, it's always cringy now. Like, there's always cringe. There's always something to be uncomfortable about. And maybe we are just getting used to knowing it's going to be there. I'm not trying to say that.

[00:02:43] Like, when you got these girls who are both molested by this dentist and they can't do anything about it, they try to tell people authority figures and get told to forget it ever happened or to pretend like it didn't basically. That's horrible. Like, I'm not saying I don't want to take anything away from those kinds of things still being horrible.

[00:03:11] But I'm just saying, I really think they may. They I've been saying this all season. They made an effort to make the show a little lighter than Handmaid's Tale. And they're throwing in a lot of funny, funny moments, I think. They do. They do. I felt very uncomfortable with this episode. But yes, there were some lighter moments as well. We have two episodes left.

[00:03:41] And I can't believe that this season is almost over. And some stuff I have to save for book talk because I don't want to spoil anything for anyone. But there were definitely some things that happened in this episode that I think are driving us to a place that there may be some escalation. So we'll see where we get to with that. I hope so. What do you think, Wendy? I'm kind of surprised we're not further along than we are.

[00:04:11] And I don't mean that as a criticism at all. I have loved spending the time to really dig in and get to know this group of girls and the characters. But but I am kind of surprised that we're not further along than we are. I kind of think we aren't going to see a wedding this season. I could be wrong. But but I feel like maybe that will be whatever happens will be next season with with all these girls engagements.

[00:04:41] Let's see. Episode 10 is called wedding. No, I'm just kidding. No, no. I think it will be. I think episode 10 will be a wedding, but we'll see. I'm just not sure what wedding it will be. Yeah. I mean, so they have engagement parties and we've only seen one of those so far. So we still have a few of the other girls engagement parties that we might see. Yeah.

[00:05:10] I mean, when you think about the. So I was rereading the book and I won't go into details about the book because that's not what this is for. But I had put it on pause because I went to Japan and was busy with other stuff. But I started back up with it again. I'm about three quarters of the way through maybe a little further than that.

[00:05:30] And you realize that it's so it's kind of light on really getting into the world of these girls compared to this show, I think. And so I'm loving this show way more than the book, honestly. This is my personal opinion. But it's it's great to really get into the sort of teenageriness of it. And it's a whole different thing. It feels like almost it.

[00:05:59] It feels like we kind of and maybe I should save that for book talk. Sorry. Yeah. Stay tuned to book talk if you want to hear what Wendy was about to say. Don't forget. I feel like this series started with the teen teenagerness of it all and the young women piece of it.

[00:06:17] And now with all of the things that have escalated over the last couple of episodes, we're getting to the young adult part and the transition from being a child, a teenager into. This is what your life is. Yeah, it is not going to be rainbows and unicorns. You can the best really that you can hope for is you might get a husband who's kind to you.

[00:06:47] Yeah. And you may have lots of money to be able to provide things for yourself, but not maybe the one thing you want, which is love. It's it's light on love, basically, when it comes to these relationships. Yeah, I mean, from what it's interesting, because. It feels like from what we've seen, at least as far as I can remember, the couple that seemed the most in love was maybe Fred and Serena, the Gilead couple.

[00:07:18] Yeah. You know, and then, of course, they had their issues putting it lightly by the end. But, you know, we saw moments, especially early on when they were just kind of passionate about each other, but they didn't meet within this system either. They met before. Mm hmm. I think Lawrence really loved his wife. That's true. Lawrence and maybe the Mackenzie's. I don't know for sure. Actually. Yeah. His first wife. Tabitha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:46] I think that it seems very much like a sterile business transaction. Mm hmm. To put these girls with these men. And it's like the transaction is between the father and the husband. It's just like, yes, I'm going to do this and you're going to have her. And I just. I don't know. I still feel like Mackenzie.

[00:08:15] I think he's I still think he may be uncomfortable with things, but we'll talk about that with points. Who would like to go first? I'll go first.

[00:08:28] Um, I wanted to talk about how in a lot of ways, I think these first classes that are graduating from this plum school are probably the first sets of classes that have grown up for the most part completely within Gilead.

[00:08:51] I mean, we know Agnes, you know, has a few years in the beginning that she lived in pre Gilead, but she doesn't really remember that. So these are the girls that their formative years were all parts of Gilead. And we know that the whole point of this plum school is to make sure these girls are exactly what Gilead wants.

[00:09:19] We saw in one of the scenes, Commander Weston complimenting Lydia on what a wonderful job she's done with these girls. The whole point is to get these girls right on board with where they want them to be.

[00:09:35] But I do think that within that tight fist that they're keeping on these girls, they have created this very subtle, quiet rebellion and resistance within these girls. It kind of takes the shape of their friendships. And they have tried to beat these friendships out of these girls.

[00:10:00] We saw it before the aunts were talking about two little girls that were spending a lot of time together and not, you know, being with the group. And we're going to have to work on fixing that. And this is kind of these girls resistance. They're slowly just creating this, you know, underground friendship and they know they have to hide it because they know the deal.

[00:10:27] You know, it's resistance not through weapons, but through little pinky swears and period pads stolen and given to other girls secrets that they're keeping. And they know they're not supposed to keep secrets. Nicknames, you know, Shu finally gives in to Daisy's friendship and finally acquiesces and says, you can call me Shu. And we know what a big deal that is.

[00:10:56] And then Daisy responds by telling her some made up story about how babies are made. That's not nice. Oh, my God. What the hell? Swim up. That was. That was. Oh, my God. That's how it was from Shunammite's point of view. I think like, hey, I just like opened up to you and then you tell me this bullshit. Thanks a lot. Yeah.

[00:11:19] Kind of so similar as to Agnes's reaction when Daisy tells her about the crack pipe being, you know, like something special. Yeah. Poor Daisy.

[00:11:33] But we see Daisy being slowly admitted into this circle of trust amongst the girls through her words and her actions, you know, kind of started out by her saving Agnes during the bus shootout and comforting the girls, kind of telling them the truth and being honest with them. And in is honest as she can be. Yeah. She does that a lot.

[00:11:57] She'll come in with her Canadian progressive viewpoint when she sees that, you know, the whole reason why these viewpoints came into view is to advocate for the people who had less power. And here these girls don't know anything about it. And even though Daisy could get in trouble for saying the things she says, like when she tells Agnes, you know, this wasn't your fault. She'll still say it anyway, because her instinct is to help. And I'm just loving her more and more as the series goes along because of that.

[00:12:27] She's like a superpower. She has. She usually ends it with something pious just to, you know, for good measure. Sure. Um, and you know, we saw this really special scene between Shunammite and Daisy. It starts out with them kind of trying to one up each other. And Daisy kind of tantalizes Shunammite. She's like, I know all about copulation, but you do too, because you know everything.

[00:12:55] And she, she's really inviting Shunammite to ask her. Yeah. But Shunammite is not going to ask her. Or just jabbing at her. She's not going to give in to that. Yeah. I really know she doesn't know anything, but I'm going to pretend I think she does just so I can see her squirm. Yeah. And Shunammite's not going to give her the satisfaction of asking about it. But I loved how later on she's like, do you want to know how sex is? And she's like, yes, very much. Yeah. Because she needs to know everything.

[00:13:23] We see Shunammite call Daisy a name. She calls her you lucky slut. And although that certainly is a bad name, especially in Gilead, you know, it's said almost in a friendly tone. And I just love what we're seeing between these girls.

[00:13:47] You know, the scenes between Hulda and Agnes were also really special as. You know, I think Agnes. Needed confirmation of what happened to her as well. But I do think she cares about Hulda and she was trying to reassure Hulda that, you know, again, that this was not your fault.

[00:14:12] That, you know, it's important to tell your truth. She was even finding scripture to back that up with. And that she was worried about Hulda. And we see her have a vision of Hulda kind of falling. I don't know what you would call that falling from grace. I was worried that it was a premonition of some type that we might see happen in the future.

[00:14:39] But you can tell that all of that is greatly on Agnes's mind. And she's worried about Hulda and just just the little ways they check in with each other. And when Agnes gives Daisy the period pads, she says, you know, we're friends. Friends don't rat each other out. Friends, you know, are there for each other.

[00:15:03] And so she's kind of admitting Daisy into this, this companionship circle that they have. And I really loved it. It was just so sweet. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they do discourage friendships. But they also, I mean, they could try a little harder even. They all eat lunch together and they chitter chatter. And then Vidal will come in and tell them all to shut up.

[00:15:32] But, you know, they still have free time together. Um, but for the most part, yeah, I agree. They're just, they tell them, don't they tell them not to be friends? I forget. They all should be equal friends. You know, they, they don't want them to have special friendships or special bonds. Right. They don't want them touching and hugging each other. Right. They don't want that familiarity. But yeah, I mean, they're not prisoners.

[00:16:00] I mean, they are prisoners in many ways, but, but, you know, they're not, you know, kept at Guantanamo. Yeah. And, and they feel like if they want to have a one-on-one conversation, they have to do it almost in secret. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That was evident with the croquet match and them moving over by the tree. So they weren't really witnessed. Okay. I will go next. Next.

[00:16:26] I want to talk about kind of something we touch. We've touched on a little bit. These girls and the basic business transaction that is happening for them and how they are expected to go into these marriages with little or no education.

[00:16:49] And when they go in to talk about copulation, Vidala is so quick to gloss over the early parts and talking about, you know, your husband will guide you. And that made me think that they almost don't want these girls to know what it is because maybe they'll run away because they really don't understand biology.

[00:17:15] They really don't understand, which is why Shuna might didn't believe Daisy, who tried to explain it to her in, in a way she might understand. Most clinical terms. Yeah, because they don't really know what things are and seeing them in that class and Vidala like glossing over it quickly and then moving on to being pregnant and having babies.

[00:17:43] It's almost like, well, this is just, you know, this facilitates it, but it's, it's unimportant despite it being probably very terrifying for these girls to go into this wedding night, not really knowing what's going to happen to them. It's the same as modern day. In some ways, you know, there's such a big uproar about how sex education is taught.

[00:18:11] It's like they think if they teach it, then kids will have sex as if not teaching it. If they don't teach it, they won't. Right, right. What they will do if you don't teach it is have unprotected sex. Yes. Yeah. And that's not okay. Yeah. One of my. They should. Yeah. Unless they're ready to have a baby, which no kid should be.

[00:18:40] What I'm saying is it's not okay to withhold this information. My youngest niece just told me she had health class and she's 10. She's not even 10. No, Mike. That's good though. Yeah. He knows everything. Yeah. I mean, I, this is one of the things I thought was kind of funny when they're like, oh, it's copulation class. I'm like, really? And then. Such a clinical term.

[00:19:07] And then, I mean, I'm pretty sure that's the term the girls came up with because I thought it was, I was like, oh wow, they're really gonna go through. I was like, I don't think Gilead would do that. I was ready to be like, I don't, I don't believe that there would be such a thing. Uh, maybe because having babies is the main focus of Gilead. And so they want to make sure everything goes well. But then the instructions are basically, like you said, Daphne, uh, on your wedding night, do what your husband says. That's it.

[00:19:35] And, and, uh, Agnes says our education was left wanting. Um, so I, I thought that was funny. And, um, you know, the class I think is more about pregnancy and prenatal care and copulation class, I think is a misnomer that just came from the girls who didn't really know what it was going to be. But, um, I think it makes sense. I, I don't know for sure. I grew up in a sort of a religious family, but my mom was very progressive.

[00:20:05] So she told me all about sex, the birds and bees. But, um, I feel like in a lot of like super religious families, they probably don't say much about what happens. They just say on your wedding night, you just, I don't know what they say. Go with the flow or I don't think they give them a lot of details. Right. I, I don't know. I didn't know anything until school. School is where I learned it. And I was quite shocked. I was like, I couldn't have been more.

[00:20:33] I would like, shut up. What? That's ridiculous. They separated the boys from the girls. We had that too, but I already knew cause my mom told me. No, my parents definitely did not tell me. No, I learned in school. I learned in school. Basically they tell them obeying your husband, obey your husbands as you do the Lord. And he, um, your husband will guide your hand in all your duties. I'm just like. Yeah.

[00:21:04] They're in for a rude awakening on the wedding night. And I can picture it being a truly terrifying experience. I mean, again, it's like what you said before. You hope for a kind. A husband. Yeah. You hope for a husband who's gentle on your wedding night, you know, and who knows how to please to some degree, I guess. I mean, it's so creepy to talk about with these girls who are like 15 years old, but, um,

[00:21:31] I mean, yeah, you just, it's kind of a lottery how that night's going to go for them. Yeah. You really don't know. Yeah. And watching the engagement party and then seeing Agnes going through picking flowers and tasting cakes and all of these things with her future husband Weston. I mean, these it's an arranged marriage, really. Yeah.

[00:22:00] I mean, it's not really any different than an arranged marriage when it comes to, they have no idea. Like she has not, she knows nothing about him. And at least Becca has seen Garth around, you know, Agnes has really had very few interactions with Weston, didn't probably ever really see him. So this is, it's a stranger to her. Yeah.

[00:22:29] And that expectation, because these girls have been brought up to be meek and to follow orders, whatever their husband, the commander says. And so that is what their life is going to be. And I think seeing these engagement parties and all of that, you start to realize through

[00:22:53] the girl's eyes exactly what is, is coming and how traumatic that could be for them. I mean, he, like we know Weston's not a good guy. He's had restraining orders against him and all that. He likes women who have fights. It's like, but in this. Wait, did I miss something? Restraining order? Yeah.

[00:23:22] That's what Daisy found out. I think when she looked through his papers in the flashback. Yeah. When she was looking through the command folder of commanders. Pre Gilead time. From pre Gilead times. Yeah. Oh boy. You should listen to this one podcast. The Handmaid's Tale. Yeah, I know. I should. Yeah. But so anyway, he's not a good guy, but in this, in this scene, you know, he seemed okay. Like, I don't know.

[00:23:51] I, I, it always feels weird to me to say any commander in Gilead is okay. They're all in this system perpetuating atrocities, but just in the, this scene, he's like trying to, you know, connect with his future wife. And it's so weird because you're right. They don't know each other. And on top of that, the age difference just makes it even more weird. But it did remind me of, um, arranged marriages, like you said, where, which are pretty common

[00:24:19] even today, a fairly common, I think even today. And, um, I, I imagine it's like that without the age difference or maybe sometimes with, I don't know, but, um, you know, where you just are with a stranger and I think there's oftentimes several meetings to just try to make sure that you feel compatible. Um, but it's, I, I really, for most of human history, marriage was like this.

[00:24:44] It was about family alliances, economics, religion, inheritance, social order. It wasn't about romance. That's a new, relatively new thing in the last like couple hundred years or something like that. So this feels so odd to me to think about and to see an example of an arranged marriage, but it, we're living in a time where we're marrying for love. That's relatively new as far as human history goes. I have a friend whose marriage was arranged. Yeah. How'd it go? Yep. Well, I mean, they're divorced.

[00:25:13] Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, she's from India and that was just the norm. And what sucks is that, you know, it was an abusive relationship. And so the woman really has to choose. Like if your husband turns out to be a real loser or an alcoholic or an abuser, your choices

[00:25:37] are, you know, like she was in America and she got a divorce, but there is such a taboo in India and amongst the Indian culture about divorce. So you have to choose. You're either going to stay in this terrible situation or you're going to have this scarlet letter on yourself for the rest of your life. It really sucks. Yeah. Um, I thought Weston was really turning the charm on and you could see that it was working.

[00:26:07] Me too. She was, he was getting in, like he was winning some of her affections. I mean, the part that really, cause she's like, I don't like this cake. It's I don't like this one. I think that was kind of just sort of an extension of her overall. Like, I don't like any of this. I don't want to be married to this guy. I don't want any of this. But, um, then it went onto the flowers. She chooses the calla lily. Paula's like, I think you should reconsider and choose the ranunculus.

[00:26:34] And then she goes, I don't want to reconsider the ranunculus Paula. And Weston goes, I think Agnes has made her choice. And that probably endeared him to her a little bit, but it also spoke to how there's about to be a power shift because Paula, I mean, uh, Agnes has been totally under the power of Paula now, but now she's going to be married to a commander and her loyalty is going to have to shift to him. At least that's what it's supposed to happen.

[00:27:02] And he is, any man is more powerful than any woman. So that, that should shift things a little bit. But I was thinking, I still think Mackenzie is well, I was trying to think of Mackenzie is more powerful than Weston. And I think he is in the hierarchy because he's called a high commander and Weston is just a commander, but Weston is the head of the eyes. So he has a particular kind of power there. Yeah. They're probably pretty close. Maybe. Yeah. I just thought that was a great scene. Yeah.

[00:27:32] And Agnes calls her Paula and not mother. Right. That's true. Yeah. She's like, we're almost going to be on even footing. Right. And I think, I think that more than anything, she started to think about it in that way. And then like, there's a silver lining. He knows what he's doing. Yeah. And he knows what he's doing. He's totally playing that up. Yeah. I mean, it started before that with the cake. Like he told Agnes, I'm happy to, you know, all of these are great.

[00:28:00] I'm happy, but I'm happy to taste as many as you want because it's your day. You should be happy about it. Yeah. It's not hers. It's not her day. It's yours. And that's what I'm saying. Like people are complicated and complex. And he, I think is a bad person overall, but this was a good instinct. You know, if you're going to be stuck with somebody on both sides for the rest of your life, then you're going to, it's better to try to like be friends than not, you know? Mm-hmm.

[00:28:27] Well, he even said he's very excited about their life together and was hoping that some of his enthusiasm would rub off on her or would be contagious. Mm-hmm. So I think he's saying the right things. I'm really concerned for Agnes marrying him, but if she can get any one upmanship over Paula at any time, I'm going to be happy about it because I feel like she has had to tolerate

[00:28:56] a lot of subtle abuse from Paula since she came into the family. And I think now that you're saying that, that throughout history also, there've been a lot of young people who have gotten married in part just to get away from parents that they didn't get along with, you know? Yeah. They might have rushed into it just for that reason. Oh, absolutely. Especially the boomer generation. A lot of women did that. Yeah.

[00:29:32] It was a time where the boys in the family got away with lots of things and the girls were just held to a ridiculous standard to begin with. And also women didn't go out and get their own apartment back then. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you lived in your parents' house until you got married. In my family, in my great grandparents, women worked in the mill. Like at 14, 15, 16, they went and worked in the mill.

[00:30:02] And the only time you didn't get to work in the mill was when you got married because then you're supposed to be getting pregnant and everything. So a lot of women got married so they didn't have to work in the mill. Right. And I mean, people are, you know, they want to say, you guys always say that Gilead is like the United States and it's totally not. And I'm like, well, I'm not saying it's exactly the same thing, but that phrase, make America

[00:30:30] great again is related to what we're talking about right now. Yeah. Back in the good old days of the fifties and the sixties. Yes. And everything that goes along with it. Yeah. All of those little things, they want it to be a way that many people don't want it to be that way anymore. We've come such a long way, but I feel like that's getting chipped away at. Every day it gets chipped away at more and more.

[00:30:58] And I personally don't want to go back to that. Well, we haven't really talked about real world stuff that much with the testaments and I don't have anything prepared right now, but I do just want to mention that, man, there's a swing happening the other way right now. Trump's approval is in the toilet worse. I think then any recorded approval of any president since they started recording approval ratings.

[00:31:26] And I'm not trying to say, ah, we're totally in the clear. Um, everybody needs to go out and vote in the midterms. But I do think it's good to point out that, okay, people are starting to wake up there. It's more than starting. People are like, I mean, a lot of it is just, they don't like the high gas prices. Sure. But still it's like, whatever, get this fucker out.

[00:31:48] I'm going to be your full Jason, because at the same time, the government is in bad shape. The Supreme Court is allowing free and fair elections to go out the window. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the tidal wave of anti Trumpism right now, I think is enough to overcome what's happening with all that.

[00:32:18] But yeah, I'm not saying, I mean, they're trying to cheat and, you know, stack the deck for sure. That's why everyone has to vote. And I agree. Everyone absolutely has to vote and we have to get the vote out for the younger generations. But I am worried that it's not going, you know, that it's just going, we are not going to have free and fair elections.

[00:32:42] That is what I am worried about because of redistricting and. All right. Well, let's just leave the listeners with that worry then. Thanks, Wendy. Wendy. No, I okay. So. I'm with both of you in different ways. And I just want to say.

[00:33:07] There is possibility and I do have hope that things will get better and can get better. However. It's a lot of work and people have to vote. And even if there's a lot of excitement and a lot of people getting fired up, if that doesn't translate to the polls, it's not going to make a difference. Yeah. And that's been an issue.

[00:33:31] Not just now, but in previous elections where things have not gone the way that I was hoping for. We've had, I think three, no Kings rallies and each one of those has had more people show up than I think any protest ever in American history. All anti-Trump rallies. Um, we there, Wendy's right. There are this whole gerrymandering fight.

[00:34:01] If you haven't been paying attention, usually they change the way district districts are laid out at every 10 years after the census. But the Republicans decided, no, we're going to change it now to try to disenfranchise people who won't vote for us. So basically they put all the people who vote Democrats into a single district so that other districts can all vote Republican and get more people in the house. Then Gavin Newsom said, fine, we don't, we don't like that idea.

[00:34:30] You know, some Democrats have done that before, but it's been mostly Republicans, but, but, uh, Newsom's like, we'll do that in California too, to counteract what they did in Texas. And the Virginia tried to do the same and the Supreme Court of Virginia overruled that. So that's a setback for Democrats, but there are people who are working on counteracting the efforts of the Republicans to rig the election. And so it's not like everybody's just laying back doing nothing.

[00:34:59] It's a fight and we have to fight. Okay. We can't just say, oh, I'm worried. So let's just, uh, consider ourself doomed and do nothing. I don't believe in that. And I have hope. I have hope. I'm also cautiously optimistic and educate myself about what is going on.

[00:35:24] I just, it's one of those things where good things can happen, but will they, you should watch, will they be allowed to have Harry Anton on CNN, the pollster guy? Have you seen him when he talks about where the polls are? It'll make you feel better about all this stuff because it's just like, there's so much hate

[00:35:49] right now for, for every aspect, immigration, uh, the war in Iran economics. He's underwater on every metric. Polls are great, but they don't always translate. Look at the polls for the last election. It's different now. People are more aware because of the rising prices and the war in Iran after Trump campaigned on lowering prices and not going into any wars.

[00:36:18] So people are like, whoa, okay, now I'm paying attention. And so it's translating into, like I said, record numbers of people going out to these protests. They're taking action now. Lines are getting crossed. Absolutely. I know a lot of people that are religious. We're not pleased about comments that were made about the Pope by Trump about the Pope because and making a picture of himself as Jesus.

[00:36:48] Yeah. It's, it's, it's different now. It's he, he, it's hard. It's going to be really hard for him to pull himself out of this one with Iran. He keeps trying to say, oh, it's over. We won. And yet there's more fighting. Like he can't, he really fucked up going to war with Iran. What's going on, Wendy? I want to know what you're thinking. I didn't mean to like shut you down. I just don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't. I have increasing levels of terror.

[00:37:18] I understand. I know. And I don't want to bring that to other people. Well, we don't want to be unrealistic either, but I don't think I am being unrealistic. You know, we, we already have a system in the United States where you can win the popular vote. Right. Yeah. We've had this happen before and then you lose the election. And I feel like that's going to happen even more now.

[00:37:42] So it's not enough to be popular in the polls, you know? Yeah. No, I mean, like there's, I think they're, the Democrats are trying to figure out all the angles. So, you know, as are the Republicans. So we'll see what happens, but it's just like, there's only so much you can do to overcome a tidal wave. That's the way I see it.

[00:38:16] I love your optimism about our system because I just, you know, worry that I don't think Gilead was voted in by popular vote, you know? Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, if there's like, I just think Trump tried to have a big military parade to have this show of force, like dictator-y show of force. And it backfired because the military made it look dinky and fun.

[00:38:43] And I think they kind of rebelled against him by not doing what they damn well knew he wanted to see. And I just think that he doesn't have what it takes to stage a coup. I think we need people in power to be braver than they've been. Well, we don't, there is nobody in power who's on our side. The Democrats that have a little power in our government are not doing enough, in my opinion.

[00:39:14] They're, they're too afraid of losing their pieces. Okay. Well, I think we could get, we could keep talking about this for a long time. Um, I don't know if that's what we should do. Let's, um, there's a lot more in this episode that we need to talk about. Yeah. And I believe Jason, it's your point.

[00:39:37] Okay. I mean, I, cause I, I have a, something, a response to that and then I'm sure you'd have a response, but maybe we should save it, put a pin in it. What do you think? Sure. Sure. Cause I actually don't know. I know that some Democrats are like, you have Bernie Sanders and, um, uh, AOC going out on tour, no oligarchs, you know, and, uh, freaking.

[00:40:05] Uh, let's, I always forget the Newsom's out speaking out, you know, and they're always all voting against everything. So I don't know. I, but I, I don't know exactly what they could be doing that. They're not. I think you're probably right that they could be doing more, but I just don't know enough about it to know what they're not doing that they could be doing.

[00:40:30] Yeah. I think you're right. They're not all strong enough, but some of them are doing everything they could think of anyway. Okay. Let me get into my thing. Daisy and Shunammite, which I thought was the funniest storyline. I agree. So Daisy gets her period, which we call, I think, right? Cause that would be the most interesting thing to happen. Yeah. Of course she panics because for many women, maybe most being fertile in Gilead is actually a curse when you really think about it.

[00:40:58] Of course, Shunammite is the one to walk in on her and see. And she says, why is God doing this to me? And then she goes, you have to show that to the aunt so you can ring the bell. She goes, I can't, they'll make me get married. She goes, of course they will. Why do you think you're here? Daisy on earth? I just thought that was hilarious.

[00:41:23] And then I thought was so funny in craft class when constant can't find her embroidered pot holder with stars and moons. And Daisy's just like, looking around. That's hilarious. And then she was like, I know you took it. Then it was just such a poignant moment with Shunammite really opening up, crying. Her parents are putting pressure on her. All her friends are getting their period.

[00:41:51] And she says her little brother was one of the ones taken on, uh, on the night of tears. Night of tears. Yeah. And Daisy says, Oh, angels flight. I'm like, don't say that. That's what the enemy's name for it is. I think that was more for our benefit just so we would know what it was. But, um, by the way, Daisy doesn't realize she hung out with the person who was responsible for that. I don't think. No, I don't think she knows.

[00:42:17] But it was such a nice bonding moment with them. Like you said, Wendy, she, you can call me shoe and Shunammite's crying and really needed a friend. And then they, he says, uh, I'll tell you what sex is. It's then, uh, at Becca and Garth's engagement party when Daisy and Garth talk and she, she was like, I got my period. And he goes, blessed be the fruit. Like, are you kidding me?

[00:42:46] How did you even say that? And then right after she'd had that great, uh, I didn't have it in this point because it's, I have a point about Garth too, but that thing where he knew Freud was, and then she's, she needs tampons and he has no idea what those are. So he knows what, who Freud is, but it doesn't know what tampons are. And then, um, then she's like, I need to get out of here. They're going to marry me off. I'm done. And he's like, there's no done until we win.

[00:43:13] And so now I like that because he finally laid it on the line. Like you're here until the fall of Gilead. I think that's what that means. Right. And, and that made me wonder if, and really hope, like I have hope for this too, Wendy, that we'll see the fall of Gilead in the series. That would be pretty cool. Yeah. I don't know if that will happen, but I would like to, I would like it to happen. That's my hope. Yeah. Mine too.

[00:43:44] So if anybody out there is listening. He still also says he doesn't know who June is and he explains he's got a hand leg. Yeah. Who has a hand leg? And that's all he knows. That's the only person. Yeah. That's so when they get caught and tortured, they, they can only give up one person.

[00:44:02] Yeah. But it made me think, Oh wow. You, you're part of Mayday, but you don't feel like a part of a group where you can give each other support and things like that. You know, just know one person or two people. Seems lonely. Well, there's no company. There's no company retreats that you get to go on. You don't know anyone, you know, who's below you and who's above you and that's it. Yeah. Really? That's, you know, it's a line, it's a protection mechanism. Really?

[00:44:31] But I just thought, yeah, the whole way they handled Daisy getting her period and interacting with Sheena might who desperately wants her period. I mean, portion might she's the one girl who really loves the system. Right.

[00:44:49] She wants to find a husband and get a nice house and a great car and have kids. And she's the one like in this fertility crisis. It so happens that she has a bunch of fertile friends and she's the one who doesn't. And I felt bad for her, even though she had a couple zingers in there where she like Miriam, they announced her husband and she goes, Oh, Mr. Colonies or something like that. Like commander colony. Commander colony.

[00:45:16] She can be a real ass sometimes, which I hope they don't ever blunt that because it's kind of fun and funny and it does, you know, I don't want her to soften too much, but it was nice to see her, you know, be a little vulnerable.

[00:45:33] Yeah. You see her caring come out. She's just a direct person. She's always going to say what comes to her mind, at least while the answer not in hearing.

[00:45:47] Because she was like making fun of Garth's parents house and how it's small and not really made for parties. And I was there any caviar because the mother always overcompensates. But then as soon as they came up, I guess it was Becca's parents. That was Becca's parents. But still, as soon as they came up, then she's like, Oh, hello, Mrs. Mr. and Mrs. whatever. Like Eddie Haskell. Yep.

[00:46:16] If you don't know who Eddie Haskell is, Google him. Go back in time to the 50s. Okay, Wendy. Are we back to me? We are back to you. I'll just tag along with a little bit of that. We find out that Garth's father led Gilead forces during the Battle of Boston and that he was poisoned by Mayday.

[00:46:43] And that's why he seemed to be paralyzed or something or maybe in a vegetative state, something like that. And you would think that would make Garth angry at Gilead. I mean, angry at Mayday, but it's the opposite. It has made him realize somehow that Gilead is a toxic system. So he is fighting. He's committed his whole life.

[00:47:11] I mean, if he gets caught, he'll be tortured and killed. So he's committing everything he has to bringing down Gilead. Garth says when him and Daisy are talking, Garth says he never expected to fall in love. I don't think that's anything that any boys really talk about or expect in the Gilead system.

[00:47:36] They know they're just going to be assigned a girl and they're probably, you know, that's the end of their expectations is a girl. I wonder if she's wondering, are you, what is your end game? Are you going to go defect to Canada or what? That's kind of what I wonder about him. No, I think he wants to stay and see it through. Yeah. Well, you're right. Yeah. He just wants Gilead to be destroyed. So, yeah.

[00:48:03] And getting married for him is just another step to doing that. It's a box to check off. Yeah. Now he's going to be a higher commander. Now he's going to be married and, you know, have all the trappings of a commander. More access. And yeah. Yeah. I mean, and he probably thinks Becca is, you know, probably, I don't know, you know, we'll just acquiesce to whatever his plan is.

[00:48:32] I just think if Garth, you know, it's almost too bad that he didn't end up with Agnes because Agnes's father is a powerful commander. And that might help him get closer and get more access and get more information. With Becca, he's got a dentist. No offense to dentists, but I mean, in Gilead, apparently they're just not that powerful. Yeah. I don't think he, he's young. So I don't think he thought he was going to get that choice.

[00:49:00] I think just getting a girl. And being a commander. Probably more than he hoped for at this age. Okay. Before he's even become a commander. But Garth asks Daisy a big question, which is like, what do you want? Like we can see Daisy has kind of realized that she's gotten in over her head in Gilead and she's scared and terrified all the time.

[00:49:24] And in multiple episodes, we've seen that she like wants to go home. And if she was probably given the choice, she probably would leave and go home. However, Garth like kind of talks to her about Gilead and Mayday and why he's in this. And he asks Daisy this question of like, why are you doing this?

[00:49:51] And I don't think Daisy fully knows why she's doing that at the moment. But we have the whole arc of Dr. Grove and Agnes. Well, first Hulda tells Vidala about Dr. Grove and Vidala. I can't even really be angry at Vidala for her reaction because I think she's telling the truth.

[00:50:16] In that the best course of action for Hulda is to pretend like it never happened. Because no one's going to save her. And if it comes out, it probably will ruin her chances of whatever future she was going to have. And I can't even be mad at Vidala for that because I feel like it's out of her hands.

[00:50:39] I mean, based on what we know about Vidala, where she started and where she is now, you know, I hope we get some on-screen connection of those dots. But given that we don't have it, the only thing I can think is that she decided I'm going to have to go along to get along. And I'm in charge of all these girls. So if I'm going to help them stay alive, then I'm going to teach them to be proper Gilead women and not step out of line. Or else they're just going to probably die or be sent to the colonies. Something like that, you know. They're teaching them how to survive. Exactly.

[00:51:09] I think that's what Lydia's doing too, to a degree. And that's the same thing with Lydia. Absolutely. Same thing. She's telling Agnes, when you're a wife, you'll have some sliver of power and you'll have more choices. Not all the choices, not even great choices, but you'll have more choices to make. And you won't have to go to the dentist if you don't want to. And she's saying that, well, Agnes in voiceover says that he's going to be dealt with.

[00:51:37] So that's something for us to look forward to because we know she's speaking from the future. Yeah. I hope we see that this season. Well, and Agnes, Agnes said she didn't understand that that's what Lydia was telling her. At the time. Right. At the time. I think Lydia was taking some notes in her head. Because she seemed really upset to hear that. Future actions. Lydia was not happy. Yeah. Yeah. And she gets her revenge in little ways. Mm-hmm. We've seen it before.

[00:52:07] Yep. And I think that Agnes finally confides in Daisy about what happened. And this just lights a fire under Daisy. You can see it. Oh, man. I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. But I do feel like Daisy has found why she's there. Is that she has come to really care about this set of girls that are bringing her into their fold more and more each episode.

[00:52:37] And she's figuring out why she's there. It's to, you know, right some of the wrongs that she sees. And I don't know what's going to happen, but I can't wait. Yeah. I mean, she's also young and impulsive and kind of brave despite what kind of makes sense sometimes. Yeah. Because, I mean, just the fact that she was like, yeah, I'm going to go into Gilead. Who cares?

[00:53:06] And then cut to however many months later, get me the hell out of here. Right. Right. I think Daisy could be incredibly impulsive in this situation. And it could, I think it could backfire because look how Agnes said it. She said, yeah, I, I told you before, never trust a fucking pro girl. So whatever Daisy does, it doesn't seem like it went well.

[00:53:34] It's, it's going to be impulsive because she's like, it's an, I think it's somewhat emotional. Yeah. But maybe it didn't go well, but it was good that it happened. Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, Daisy's kind of my hero, right? She's. Yeah. She's a badass. Yeah. I love her. And I, I didn't take what Agnes said to necessarily mean that she was sorry it happened. Maybe not, yeah.

[00:54:03] She was, she was just saying Daisy wasn't going to do, Daisy wasn't going to take that information and just console her. Daisy was going to act. Stir some shit up. Yeah. I think it might make Daisy reconsider keeping the secret that she has. About the dentist? About starting her period.

[00:54:33] Oh, why? So she can enter into the whole. So she can get a visit to Dr. Grove. Maybe. I don't know. I don't either. I just believe. Sounds good to me though. I just believe that Daisy is, this is impacting her in a way that might make her a little bit irrational and very impulsive.

[00:55:00] And she may change her course of action because this has affected her so much. Because of the love she has for these girls. And she has kept her, had to keep her emotions in check all this time after growing up in a system where she didn't have to do that. Oh, that would drive me so crazy. Yeah. Me too. I would.

[00:55:29] But I feel like she has kept herself composed. For the most part. Except when she saw that guy get his hand cut off and was like, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like Daisy has kept herself mostly composed. And we've seen the moments where she's gotten close to like, and she's had to rein herself in.

[00:55:51] And I think this could be the thing that pushes her over the edge, coupled with her seeing Talia dragged off. Right. Like not long before, which was the other Pearl girl. Instead of her. Like, yeah, I feel like Daisy is now maybe in a position where she might want to risk some things. That could all end terribly wrong for her.

[00:56:18] And I just want to say she reminded me of June so much in that. She totally did. That look on her face. And we're not saying that she's June's daughter. We're just saying. No. I'm just saying she reminds me of her. Yeah. The personality and the facial expressions. Yes. Yeah. I mean, June would do that. Right? Oh, hell yeah. And I kind of, when I was thinking about this, I was kind of thinking about what would June do in a situation like this?

[00:56:47] And she would absolutely flip things on its head if it were her. Yeah. She absolutely would. There would probably be fire involved. Yeah. Or knives to the eye. Or things like that. And I just feel like they're not going to have Daisy get her period for no reason. She's going to weaponize that menstruation. Maybe. I think so. I mean, I wouldn't put it past her.

[00:57:15] But I mean, I'm excited to watch the next episode and see what happens. Yeah. Because when I'm thinking about what I think could happen, then I want to know if I'm right. For sure. And that's just me. Like, the trivia queen in me is wanting to predict and know, oh, am I right? Like, I want to be right. So I think really hard about it. All right.

[00:57:41] Let's talk about Garth, who I think is really an intriguing, mysterious character that I always want to know more about. And we learned more about him this episode. And it still made me more curious, I think. When it was announced, they were announcing who was marrying who. And it was announced Becca was going to be marrying Garth.

[00:58:08] And Shunammite said his father was a big commander back in the day. That made me more curious about him. Then at the engagement party, we learned that he led the fight to keep Boston. And he's now in a wheelchair and barely conscious and can't understand anything, or at least we hope. And so we know that fight. That's the fight that failed. And we saw it at the end of The Handmaid's Tale.

[00:58:31] And Agnes says they would have lost a day sooner if it weren't for him, which is like, oh, wow. I think they're just trying to make his current condition mean something. But it seemed pretty small potatoes. Yeah. So then they wheel him out onto the porch, Garth and Daisy, so they can talk. And Garth says he was poisoned and it was an assassination attempt by Mayday.

[00:58:59] And again, I'm like, okay, how does that jibe with you joining Mayday? And then Daisy said, Freud would have a field day for you. And he goes, Freud? Yeah, he was a German. I'm kidding. I know who Freud is. And he was Viennese. And I'm like, how does he know who Freud is? Do you think it's just because men in Gilead are allowed to study? Or is it because he's had more experience of the outside world than most Gilead people? I think he's had more experience.

[00:59:28] I think he was, you know, either because of his parents, he was educated. Educated. But I still think we don't know exactly how that happened, but I think it seems he's more educated than most. Yeah. Because all of this, like, he said, my father was the bravest man I've ever known. He was just fighting for the wrong side. All of this just made me, and oh, also he said, I want to destroy Gilead. And he seems so intent on that.

[00:59:58] That's what he's committed his whole life to. So there's that piece missing in there. Like, wow, your father's this high commander who you look up to, who was debilitated by Mayday, and you're a part of Mayday, and you hate Gilead, and you want to destroy it. Why? What happened there? And you're a man who could have power in Gilead. Maybe he's just too moral for that, you know? But I feel like probably something happened. And yeah, I want to know what happened.

[01:00:27] Well, I think he blames Gilead on that, that his fight, I think whatever, you know, his background is, he totally recognizes that Gilead is not the right side of the fight. And that's not normal. That's not normal for a kid, his, and I know he's not a kid, a man his age to be there. But he is. Yeah.

[01:00:48] And I don't think we are meant to know exactly how he got there, but he's there, and he recognizes that his father was on the wrong side, and now he's pissed. Yeah, I think you're right that he blames Gilead, but still, to make that logical, take those steps to be like, okay, I know Mayday poisoned my dad, but it's because Gilead is bad, so I'm going to join Mayday. Yeah.

[01:01:14] Like, I guess that's the group that you join if you want to take Gilead down, but that would be hard. I feel like that would be hard for me to, even if I thought, okay, this group that my mother, let's say, because I was close to her, was a part of, was bad, and that's the reason why she was involved in this in the whole time, and this other group killed her. I don't know if I would want to join that other group, you know, but I feel like once we learn his full story, it'll make more sense.

[01:01:45] Yeah, I hope that we get his story. I remember going down a rabbit hole about Nazi Germany and how the Germans felt about it after the war, and it was surprising because many German citizens for decades afterwards couldn't admit that it was wrong.

[01:02:06] I mean, they admitted that Hitler was wrong, but they still said, like, the Nazi party, that, you know, what they were trying to do was okay, but it was the next generation that changed things. The children that held their parents accountable, you know, and that's kind of what it made me think of, what Garth makes me think of.

[01:02:31] But yeah, like, we've been talking about how this generation that we're seeing grew up steeped in the ideals of Gilead, so there had to be some outside influence or something that turned him on them, I would think. Yeah. Another thing, just one last thing about him is I thought, you know, that he was going to pretend to feel something for Agnes and get close to her so he could spy on her father, but I think I was totally wrong about that. They didn't end up together.

[01:02:59] And also, he seems negatively impacted by that. When they have scenes together, he seems upset that there's not more with him or something, and it does seem to me like he kind of likes her. I think he cares about her, but I think he does have his eye on the prize. Yeah, for sure. And that's going to trump anything with a girl. Like, he even said that.

[01:03:27] He said, I never expected football in love. No, that's not his thing. But still, don't you see, I mean, do you agree with me that there seems to be some, you can't control what you're attracted to. He has emotion. Yes. Yes.

[01:03:42] But I think he probably knew more than Agnes did that he didn't have a shot because Agnes's father is such a high commander that he didn't have a shot with Agnes, whereas the reason he's getting placed with Becca is because, one, Becca's father is a dentist, which is not considered a big deal. No offense to dentists.

[01:04:06] And two, her parents allowed her to choose, which seems like most parents are not doing that. Right. And I was thinking, too, about Agnes, how it opens up with her. She has a lot going on. The man she loves is marrying her best friend. She has to marry some old dude that she cares nothing about.

[01:04:30] And the whole thing about her and her friend being molested, sexually assaulted by her friend's father and not knowing what to do about it. But as far as her and Garth opening on this dream and it's so dramatic. And she says when she found out Becca was going to marry Garth, her chest started burning like she was swallowing hot wax, like she was being scraped raw from the inside. And I'm just like, man, she really likes this guy.

[01:04:58] And one thing that we haven't mentioned is that she thinks she's in love with him, but she doesn't really know him. It's based on very little. They barely talked. There's chemistry there between them. But it just reminded me and this probably sounds condescending.

[01:05:15] I doubt very many like teenagers are listening to us, but I just when you're young, first love feels so all encompassing and you don't realize that your feelings could change once you sort of settle in with the person and actually get to know them. It's all about those rush of feelings, you know? The vibes. The vibes. And you just don't have the perspective to put it all into, you know, the way you do when you're older.

[01:05:44] You're like, oh, I'm just going to stay busy for a few weeks and I'll get over it. But you don't have the. I can remember like boyfriends when I was in middle school and man, like just my whole world was crumbled. And the feelings can be more intense, too. They're just. Oh, yeah. All encompassing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I broke up, when I had a breakup, it was the worst feeling I've ever had in my life before or since a high school breakup. Yeah. No, I agree. I had.

[01:06:14] I can I can say it now. Tommy Flayhart was my childhood boyfriend and like I had it for him so bad. And he called me once and broke up with me over the phone. And like it was like my whole world crumbled. Of course, you couldn't. You can't let on. You can't let on even to your friends. You know, you have to pretend like I don't care. No, I was like crying to my friends.

[01:06:41] Well, like we all were in the same neighborhood. So, you know, like I was going to see them again. And so I had to pretend like I didn't care. That's the worst, though. Seeing them is the worst. I know. Because then it's like that's what grabs a hold of your chest. I know. Makes it want to explode. So hard. Yeah, it's terrible. You have to see them after being so close. And then if they get another boyfriend or. Oh, my God. Ugh. Yeah. It's worse. What if they. And it's somebody you know. What if it's your best friend?

[01:07:12] Happens to me. Yep. Not having to have to get a new best friend. Yep. Ruined that friendship. We were never friends after that. It really destroyed everything. Boys. It's what happens. It's it's teenager. It's you know, it's teenage life. It's hormones. It's growing up. It's just part of it. I have a question. Have we seen Garth since the first episode?

[01:07:40] Or did he replace the guardian that got his hand chopped off? His arm chopped off? Was that way? That guy was on school grounds. Was he Agnes's guardian though? I thought he was. I don't even remember. He was driving Agnes around, wasn't he? Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think he might be right. I don't know. I feel like Garth has been there. I don't know. I don't know. I was just wondering like how long they've actually known each other because he, you know, he's

[01:08:07] probably the only guy she's seen on the daily. Yeah. And he's cute and smoldering. So she's gone. She's done. Yeah. And her only other choices have been all these old dudes. Right. Yep. Well, she's not even supposed to think about men and boys at all until the last three weeks or something. Right. It all, you know, as she grows up over the, over three weeks as she transitions from being

[01:08:33] an adolescent to an adult, you know, with one night to be a teenager. Right. Yeah. Her creepy prom. Did you guys notice that when Agnes went over and talked to, um, Agnes and Daisy went over to congratulate Becca and Garth.

[01:08:56] Agnes is talking about wishing them both happiness and Garth's dad knocks a glass over at that time. And I wondered, is he really like not there or is he just not able to communicate because he's like a uncle Tio or Tio. What's his name on breaking bad with this little bell? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[01:09:22] I wondered maybe he knows who she is, who Agnes is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was nervous when, uh, Garth and, um, Daisy were talking right in front of them. Yeah. I'm like, that's not smart. How do you know he can't communicate? Because maybe someone in Gilead told you, what do they know about science and, and medical? Yeah. How do you know? It's just a premonition that Garth and Becca are not going to be happy.

[01:09:52] Right. Well, I have my questions about that. If something happens with Dr. Grove, what will that do to Becca? And, you know, is this marriage going to happen? Like, I don't know. Right. Nobody's married yet. No. So they had, they had the first engagement party. So that's, you know, that's step in the direction.

[01:10:20] Um, also Agnes's face. When Becca said that she got to make the choice and she chose Garth. I thought, I mean, their friendship, they already were fracturing. And I feel like this is just further. I didn't quite get what was happening in that scene. Like, why would Becca tell her that?

[01:10:47] It seemed like Becca was a little bit, um, you know, given her kind of, uh, what am I trying to say? Uh, clapping back or something like that. Like trying to hurt her. Yeah. Like I think she's, she's first off, she's in love with her, but she can't have her. But I think also Agnes just hasn't been treating her very well. Maybe like. Right. And so she's just like, screw you then.

[01:11:17] I'm just going to. And I don't know if she chose Garth because of that sort of feeling resentment. I don't think so. I think the only reason she chose Garth is because Garth was the kindest to her. That's what I believe. Right. But she knew, she knew it would hurt, uh, Agnes. And so instead of being like, I'm so sorry, I've, I've been in that situation before where your instinct is instead to sort of be prickly about it. I can't quite explain it, but yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:47] Yeah. She could have omitted that information completely and not hurt Agnes. Yeah. She was specifically sort of trying to get at her. I thought that felt very human. And then was like, oh, and I'm having my engagement party too. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Becca had no choice. Truly. Commander from the colonies, Maddox, and Garth. I'm sorry. That's not even a question. Like anyone would do that.

[01:12:15] And for Agnes to have asked her not to a few episodes ago, I'm sorry. That's if she's your best friend, you don't want her to end up with Maddox and you don't want her at the colonies. Even if you love this guy. I mean, I get it, but you, you don't want her with, with, I mean, she had no choice. We talked about that before. Becca's choices were incredibly limited.

[01:12:42] And Garth was like a beacon amongst the rubble. I agree. I agree. And I, it's like Becca's, I mean, sorry, Agnes's logical mind tells her that, but her heart, her teenage, young heart. Everything we were just saying. Her burning feelings. Yes. Yeah. Can't help but feel differently. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:10] But I still, I'm pretty sure when I was 15, if my friend had a choice, this would never happen, but to marry the girl that I was in love with back then or be stuck in a horrible life that I would say, go ahead. I mean, you, I mean, I don't know. Cause she knows she can't have him. Yeah.

[01:13:39] So yeah, that's right. And he was going to marry somebody at some point. Yeah. Not maybe next year. Yeah. What, where are we? Whose turn is it? Well, I kind of tacked on to Wendy again with like continuing on with the Garth Becca engagement party stuff. I have only one other thing to mention from there.

[01:14:02] And that is Penny's appearance at this engagement party and how you can, you know, physically see the difference from what we saw with her at her house when she brought the girls in to show them around. She's like a different person. Yeah. That. Yeah. She's like a different person. I mean, she even says, I don't think she's washed her hair. I'm like, well, she did just have a miscarriage.

[01:14:31] I mean, she's obviously. I was going to add to her to talk about that on book talk. Yeah. Me too. But she looks upset and worn out and tired. She says she's tired. And yeah, it makes sense. So Jason, what's next? Well, let's talk about Agnes and Holda trying to figure out what to do about Dr. Grove.

[01:14:59] The total asshole who's going to get. Poor Holda. Muppets. Yeah. So they're playing croquet and Agnes can see something's wrong. And so I like that Agnes is the one sort of pressing her. Then Holda tells her, you know, he touched me. And then she's blaming herself throughout all of this. Cause that's what Gilead girls have been trained to do and think she's going to burn in hell. It's my fault. I ensnared it with my body.

[01:15:28] I ensnared Becca's dad. And it's just shows the power of societal messaging. It's the water we're swimming in. And that's why I try to question things a lot, even things that come from my side of the aisle or whatever. You know, I just don't want to blindly follow without really feeling the reasoning behind it. But anyway, that's an aside.

[01:15:55] So Agnes encourages her to tell the ants, they'll help you. And she resists. But Agnes insists. But I'm with you, Holda. But she knows. I mean, she even says in voiceover, you can tell she knows at least part of the reason she's doing that is to have use Holda as a test. Otherwise, she would have told Holda, he did it to me too.

[01:16:14] Let's go to the ants and tell them, you know, and then when they and I mean, you just think about the whole Me Too thing and how or anytime when somebody comes out and accuses someone prominent of sexual abuse and then other women come forward. And you know that it's scary to come forward and you don't know how it's going to be received. And you could end up a pariah or something. No one believes you.

[01:16:42] And that's why you see so many women only coming forward about things like that when someone else who's been abused by the same man does because there's solidarity in numbers. But even then, a lot of times the men get away with it. Look at Donald Trump, you know. So, so anyway, Vidala brings Holda and Agnes into her office and tells Agnes what we said before.

[01:17:05] You know, I know Holda cast aspersions on one of the upstanding men in our community, but now she realized she was confused and wants to make sure Agnes doesn't tell anyone else. And we already talked about why we thought she might do that just to protect them. But then after when they walk outside, Holda just starts apologizing to Agnes, even though Agnes is feeling bad about not being standing up with her. You know, she just agreed with Vidala.

[01:17:32] Just Holda has so much guilt about all of this. And Agnes. She was so happy before. Yeah. She was so like ecstatic. Just beaming. Yeah. And Agnes encourages her, you know, look forward to the positive things. You're getting married. And I couldn't remember. Do we know much about who Holda is going to be with? Thomas. Commander Thomas. I think she's getting a younger commander and he said that they could get a dog.

[01:18:02] Yeah. The one with the. Or he told her that. The good golf score, right? I think it was. I'm not sure. Either way. What we saw in the episode, the guy, the only one we saw Holda with was a younger commander. Okay. So by younger, I mean, he's probably in his late, maybe late twenties. Could be her father, not her grandfather. Maybe he'll be kind.

[01:18:31] And so then at the engagement party, Grove shows up and tells them both. He'll see both of them for appointments. And you just want to reach through the screen and ring the guy's neck and slam his head against the wall. And I guess we already talked about. Well, it just. He's doing that on purpose. He's getting off on that. He knows he's threatening them. He knows they know. I know. It's just so creepy.

[01:19:00] I almost feel sorry for this actor because, you know, he's going to have people saying, you're a fucker, you know? Yeah. So then when she talked with Lydia and she said, you know, you just have to wait. You won't have to go to the dentist. Everything we already talked about. Oh, no, I'm sorry. We already talked about that. Then she tells Daisy that Becca's dad did things to her. And she goes, you're the only one I could tell. I didn't want to sully anyone else. And I'm like, uh, thanks.

[01:19:32] She's already sullied. She's a pearl girl. I guess so. But Daisy didn't bat an eye. It's not your fault. You know that, right? You know, so just being so awesome. And, and, and, but Agnes, just like Holda is saying, oh, it's my fault. So there's just so much guilt ingrained in these women. If a, if a man does something untoward, it's your fault. And that's the whole impetus around the world in places where women have to cover up, you know, it's just, and everywhere, even here.

[01:20:00] It's just blamed on women if men do, you know, inappropriate things. It's so fucked up. Um, we already kind of talked about that though, about what happened then with Daisy. She's clearly going to do something. Seems like, uh, Lydia is going to do something. So yeah, that just has me excited and hope that whatever these things are going to happen this season. And I suspect they will. I feel like they've been building this storyline with this guy this season. I don't think they'd leave us hanging.

[01:20:30] Yeah. We only have two episodes, right? Hanging might be appropriate, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am, honestly, I'm, I'm worried for Becca and what this is going to mean for her. If her father is punished, it's going to really affect her. Given the, the Becca that we've seen so far, I just feel like it's really going to affect her.

[01:20:53] And she may end up doing something irrational or impulsive or out of desperation because she's upset. I'm worried for both Becca and Halda. Yeah. Yeah. Becca does seem more at ease right now. I wonder if it seems like that meeting with Gar just really put her at ease.

[01:21:16] The fact that he was doing things seemingly, uh, where it seemed like he cared about her experience, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So that's at least something good for now. Yeah. For her. Yeah. I mean, the alternative, we know what it is. The colonies are drunk 70 year old Maddox going after her. Right.

[01:21:43] And I wonder like, maybe her parents gave her the choice. So they think that Garth will be more easily manipulated by them so they can still control her life. I don't know.

[01:21:58] It seems odd because, you know, they said that, um, Mrs. Groves, you know, was always kind of overcompensating, trying to keep up with the Joneses and the other, um, higher, um, elevated families. You know, so it's, it seems unusual that they would let her pick the least choice. You know, the guy who's not even a commander yet, but.

[01:22:28] That's true. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I wonder if they'll explain that a little bit, but I, I, I still suspect. And of course I could be wrong that maybe Becca's dad didn't ever touch her. Yeah. I mean, I, we might never get a yes or a no on that. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. I just, the way that Becca said, oh, you're going to be fine with my dad.

[01:22:56] It doesn't seem like she would, they would make a point of having her say that if she thought he was a monster. She doesn't think he's a monster. You can, you could, you know, they don't think they're monsters a lot of times. That's just not how it happened. I mean, like I said, I could be wrong, but I think one reason she might've said that is because he never touched her. Okay. Yeah. Is it my turn? Wendy.

[01:23:26] All right. It is your turn. I wanted to talk about the episode title. It's called Broken. And the overt reason why it's called Broken is because Gilead has a tradition where at their engagement, the girls break a plate and then they have to glue it back together again to show the destruction and then the resurrection, I guess.

[01:23:52] But we also see the more subtle messages that, you know, all of these girls, when you look at them, you could say they're broken in some ways. Obviously, Becca's extremely fearful about marrying a man and has talked previously about how that's not something she wants. She's never wanted it.

[01:24:18] And she feels like she has no choices and wants to jump off the face of the earth. And we haven't seen that Becca in this episode, but that's pretty much what we've seen the whole time. Huldah obviously was not doing well in this episode. Agnes continues to seem very broken. Shunammite's the one who's doing the best.

[01:24:42] But she also seemed to be really upset and worried that she would never get her period and she would just be labeled as one of these barren people. And Daisy has been having a lot of issues in the last couple episodes, also broken.

[01:24:59] But more than that, I think that the girls, even though they're considered broken, you know, it seems to be making them stronger. And just the endless ways Gilead keeps trying to break these girls. And if anything, it makes them stronger. It makes them survivors.

[01:25:27] And I think that's what Lydia and Vidala and the aunts, you know, could tell themselves that they're trying to do. We're trying to break them down so that they can survive. Toughen them up. And, you know, that's what Lydia is trying to tell Agnes in so many words is that, you know, just tough these last few weeks, months out.

[01:25:52] And then you'll have this tiny sliver of power and you'll, you know, you'll have more choices than you have right now. But in this, what they're making these girls do is become a part of Gilead because these girls are going to marry and then they're going to get pregnant. And then they're going to have daughters and sons that they teach the Gilead way.

[01:26:21] And this just perpetuates Gilead in this never-ending cycle. This is how 10 generations go by and we're not breaking that cycle. In their survivorship, you know, they're now a part of the system if they continue to do that. And that's how Gilead keeps perpetuating this.

[01:26:45] And these girls are the most important generation because these are the first generations of only, you know, knowing Gilead. So this is like, they're like the beta test for Gilead. Can we develop these girls from birth up so that we've got them taught exactly the way we want them?

[01:27:10] And the girls are just constantly told that, you know, if they tempt a man, it's because they were ungodly. It's their fault. If they don't get a good match, it's because they're ungodly. If they don't get pregnant, don't get their period. If their pregnancy doesn't go to full term, if they have a miscarriage, it's all their fault.

[01:27:38] It's all because they're ungodly. And I mean, I just can't imagine how broken these girls are from very young ages. And yet they're creating these steely little girls that are survivors. Well, Daisy was the only person who could tell Agnes that it wasn't her fault. Right.

[01:28:06] Because it goes against, like you just said, every single thing these girls have been taught is that it is their fault. That they were tempting, whatever. Whatever. And Daisy, I think parts of old Daisy come out where she's just trying to comfort Agnes in that it's not her fault. And making sure, you know, even saying to her, you know that, right? It's not your fault. Yeah.

[01:28:33] And the men hold no responsibility for any pieces of this. I know. I mean, that's what Agnes said in voiceover was about the plate ceremony. The remade plate's more precious because it's been lovingly restored, destruction and resurrection, which sounds religious.

[01:28:54] And I think that in some ways Christianity is structured around the idea of the original sin of Adam and Eve. And that people, that we've all inherited that. We were all sinners from birth. And so we're supposed to be atoning for our sins by supplicating to God. And I think that in Gilead, Gilead is the same thing.

[01:29:23] Like you have to supplicate to Gilead because everything about Gilead is, in their view, how you express godliness. And so that guilt of your inherent sin is the way that they keep these people under control. Always feeling like if anything goes wrong, it's my fault as a sinner. So I have to do my best to be the perfect Gilead citizen.

[01:29:51] And, you know, it's just a way of controlling people and keeping them. You don't even have to do anything once they've internalized it. They do it to themselves. Yep. And Shunammite, you're saying that their sort of quote unquote brokenness could actually make them stronger.

[01:30:17] Shunammite in particular, you know, like what she wants the most is to have her period and be fertile and be a wife and everything. And one silver lining, if she doesn't get that, hopefully, what my hope for her would be that she discovers how much worth she has outside of that. You know, like she could go on to be this amazing. She already is an amazing person.

[01:30:42] And that would just be so much more accentuated when she realizes, oh, I don't even need that because I have so much else about me. That's awesome. Does that make sense? I don't know. It may be kind of corny. I mean, I hope so. But I, you know. It's hard to do that in Gilead. And I think we have a tendency and I think we all love Shunammite.

[01:31:05] So probably not this group, but some people would have a tendency to think, oh, Shunammite's so shallow and she only cares about getting this big house and blah, blah, blah. That's exactly what she's been taught. She's doing exactly what they've taught her. But we've seen her character come out in other ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:31:23] If you judge what we saw at the beginning with Shunammite, that she was this kid who didn't, who kind of seemed like she just was busy judging other. Yeah. You know, her friends. But there's so much more to her that we've seen over this season. She's so much bigger than that. There's more to her.

[01:31:51] And I feel like this episode really allowed us to see that, especially in her conversation with Daisy. And then also when she slaps Jehoshabah after, you know, she was belittling Becca. And you can tell she's fiercely loyal. Yeah. Even to the fact that Shunammite told Agnes so that Agnes could give pads to Daisy.

[01:32:18] Like, she's very strategic in what she says to who and how she supports her friends. Yeah. Yeah. I love you. Funny. Yeah. Yeah. Who's next? That would be me. And I want to talk about Lydia.

[01:32:43] Lydia, I feel like in this episode, Lydia maybe thought things were one way and she's learning that there's a lot more that she's going to have to deal with. It kind of reminded me of Lydia from near the end of Handmaid's Tale, where she was just, you know, having her discussions with Lawrence and they were making things happen together.

[01:33:10] I feel like she's getting back to that right now because she's been hit with this Dr. Grove situation and understanding that it's not just Hulda, it's also Agnes. And who knows who else? Likely. Right. And who knows who else? Because they're too afraid to say anything. Yeah. I mean, you'd think it's every single girl that he's ever seen. Yeah.

[01:33:36] I mean, you have to wonder if they were just differing levels as far as he started small and just continued to ask, like build up to doing more because it sounds like with Hulda, I'm not sure that's exactly what he did with Agnes. But we don't really know that. And neither does Agnes. She just knows something happened. Yeah. Hulda was conscious for it. Yes. That was the difference. Yeah. Yeah. That's very brazen if you think about it. Like.

[01:34:06] I mean. For him to do that. We talked about it early on, but it reminds me of Larry Nassar, the coach. Yeah. His coach. Yeah. So the other thing is Lydia is talking with Commander Weston when she arrives for the engagement party. And is inquiring about Talia, who was the pearl girl who got taken away. And she addressed, you know, she speaks about it in a very, you know, calm way.

[01:34:34] She came, you know, Talia came here for a fresh start. And Weston says the investigation's ongoing. But Lydia's talking about feeling like it's her responsibility. And Weston shoots back at her. Your only responsibility is to God and his government here on Earth. Your focus should be on the work you've done with the girls and coming to my wedding.

[01:35:00] And then she had the look on her face after that, which is the Lydia look where you know that already the wheels were turning in her head about, oh, you know, this is. I've taken lots of shit over the years from men smaller than you. And, you know, I just feel like she's going to have to do something.

[01:35:24] What I loved about that was their interaction afterwards, after he basically said, don't worry about it, Lydia. And then he said, blessed be the fruit. And she goes, may the Lord open like that. And he was like, there was a lot in the tone there. Yeah. You have to know that Lydia, while she has to deal with the Dr. Grove situation, maybe was assistance from someone else.

[01:35:52] Because this whole thing with Weston is not just going to be, that's not just going to be a throwaway situation. Like, he kind of disrespected her there. Yeah. And pushed her back to her place. And she has had bigger friends. Like, she's had friends in high places before.

[01:36:15] And so I, I mean, Commander Judd, for instance, is her friend, at least for now. It just makes me wonder, like, what is, what's Lydia going to facilitate in this situation? And so I'm curious about what might happen with that. I mean, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

[01:36:41] She could facilitate Agnes out of his bed, basically. Um, and so I feel like, I feel like she has control. She has some control over things. And so, I mean, he could be sent to the front tomorrow. If she puts a word in someone's ear. So I just feel like there's going to be something more there.

[01:37:07] And that, that's, um, really all that I have other than one other. Okay. So I have one other thing with Lydia. When she's asking Weston about Talia, I wondered if Talia could also have been part of Mayday. I just think Lydia's worried about her, but you could be. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:36] I'm, you know, I'm just wondering, and I also am concerned that since she saw Daisy with her radio, um, I'm wondering if she could have turned Daisy in and they're watching Daisy now. I don't know. All these theories, lots of things in my head. I'm just not sure. So that's a good point. That's all I have. I only have notes left now.

[01:38:00] So my last thing is at Becca's, uh, engagement party, Agnes goes over to talk to her father and he just continued to show that he cares about her, but he just really came off like the kind of guy who. Who is feeling uneasy about a lot of the things about Gilead, especially as they relate to his daughter, but is rationalizing why it's the, what needs to happen.

[01:38:30] You know, he says, uh, uh, about the age difference between the commanders and the wives. You're also young, but it makes sense to do it this way with the birth rate. So low societal norms need to shift. You have to go with the science. Right. Um, and then, you know, she, he asks, do you like, no, I'm sorry. She asks him, do you like Weston? And he goes, he's the right choice, which is not an answer to like him.

[01:38:56] Um, he says, Paul is pushing to secure a handmaid and he doesn't seem comfortable with that. And she can see that. So she says, it's going to be okay, dad. So he just seems like he's feeling uncomfortable with Gilead, but he's convincing himself that it's the way things need to go. And, um, that's really interesting. You know, I feel, uh, like that happens a lot with people. I feel judgmental of them, of course, but also recognize that we're all actually complicit in things that aren't good for people.

[01:39:26] Like, you know, you might think it's not good to buy an iPhone knowing that the working conditions in China aren't so great or, you know, driving cars around, polluting the environment that leads to time change. I don't want to bum people out too much, but I'm just saying like, it's sort of similar, um, that, you know, none of us are perfect, but it's probably worse to be a commander in Gilead. You know, but anyway, that's just what it reminded me of that.

[01:39:53] He seems like he's not one of those commanders. That's just like, I get power and I get to do whatever I want. It's more like, I don't really like this, but it feels necessary because of the birth rate crisis and all of that. Yeah. I'm sure there's a, there's a lot of people out there like that, you know, they're just kind of going along because they think, well, all these people who seem to know more about it than me think it's the right thing to do. Mm-hmm.

[01:40:21] Or I know there's people who, with Trump who are like, I don't like him, but I like his, some of his policies. Like, I don't know how you could like any of his policies right now, but that, that there are people who rationalize it that way. Or all your friends and family are voting for him. You just pick the lesser of the evils, but I never, I've always been a Republican and a conservative and I believe in small government. And I'm like, yeah, he's has the biggest deficit in U S history, but okay.

[01:40:51] But anyway, I just think there's people who are like that. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, it's sort of hard to believe he could get so far ahead when he seems like such a pushover, like with Paula and stuff. High commander. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can't ever forget about Wharton who seemed like a pretty nice guy for a while there. Yeah. Yeah. But he never seemed like a pushover.

[01:41:22] That's true. Yeah. Whereas Kyle seems kind of malleable, but I mean, he does seem like he cares about Agnes and he's obviously uncomfortable with what he is seeing unfolding, but he's not going to be the one to stop it. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I don't, I don't know if I consider him a pushover.

[01:41:44] We'd have to see that tested, but I guess you could say that if he feels uncomfortable with it, but he's going along with it, then that is a form of being a pushover. Yeah. He seems like he doesn't really like the idea of a handmaid, but he's going to get one. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I think he's just convincing himself. Yeah. This is what needs to happen with the problems of the world today. It's the science. It's what we have to do. Yeah. But come on, you're forcing a woman who doesn't want to sleep with you to come to your house and sleep with you every week.

[01:42:14] Yeah. That's evil. Yeah. It doesn't matter. If, if, if that is what happens, because we don't really know, we've seen no handmaids. Right. But you know, it's still. Yeah, that's true. It's, it's still happening in some way. I just don't think it is happening. Like we saw it in the handmaid's tale. I mean, at the end of that, he said, he tells her to go have fun and not waste her time hanging around an old man. But I'm like, but she wanted to go have fun.

[01:42:44] And then she's going to marry an old man. Like, I don't know. I don't think he's happy about the situation. I think he's going along with it. Yeah. And he even says to her, I'm happy if you're happy. But I'm like, your daughter's not happy. How do you not notice that she isn't? Because he's got a lot of stuff going on. And isn't that the same thing he asked Daisy? Is she happy?

[01:43:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's just, he senses it on some level, but he's not letting those thoughts bubble up over the ones that are saying we have to do this for Gilead's sake. But you can tell he's having some conflict about it. Yep. Okay. So let's go through our notes. I worry that the nightmare that Agnes has with Haldus screaming helped me in falling is a premonition of some sorts. Mm-hmm.

[01:43:46] Yeah. Dreams are like that. In shows. Yeah. And then I just thought what Haldus' fiance said to her about getting a dog was something you would say to your five-year-old child. Mm-hmm. Make them happy. Maybe we'll get a dog. A puppy. Yeah. Let's get a puppy. Yeah. Yeah. That's it for me.

[01:44:13] Um, I love that when Daisy goes to tell Agnes that Paul's looking for her, Agnes says she can fly down here on her broomstick. I love that because I feel like feisty Agnes is in there because she is her mother's daughter and I want to pull it out of her, but I also don't want her to end up dead. Mm-hmm. So I'm kind of like, keep it, keep it, you know. Keep it secret. Keep it under there. But yeah. Yeah.

[01:44:44] Um, I love that Daisy also points things out that should be more obvious than they are. Um, she tells Agnes you're hiding at your best friend's engagement party, but that's when Daisy thinks it's because of Garth and it isn't. It's because of Dr. Grove and that's how all of that came out. And I liked that they, um, that they did it that way. Like they, they make you think it's one thing and it's not. She just had a lot going on this episode.

[01:45:14] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and I think that is. That's all of my notes. So Jason, what do you have? Only one thing, which is that the episode opens with Sweet Jane by Cowboy Junkies, which is a longtime favorite song of mine. And I got to see them perform it live one time and they were, it was really, really good.

[01:45:40] And so I was happy to hear it and I continue to love the music choices in the show. I don't think I've heard one that I didn't like yet. It's been great.

[01:46:41] Jason, what do you have for news? So Ann Dowd and Mabel Lee, who plays Vidala, were interviewed by Hollywood Reporter. It's a good interview, but I just thought one part was, uh, relevant and interesting in particular. So I'll just read that. Uh, we'll put the link in the show notes if you guys want to read the rest. But they said the Handmaid's Tale was so relevant. Bruce Miller has always said he'd stop doing this show when it stops being relevant. You're back and you're relevant. What? I feel like it's just said relevant a lot.

[01:47:09] Anyways, what has the experience been like to be on a show that brings up so many issues that affect women and people in our real world? And, um, I'll read Lee's first. Mabel Lee said, what's so powerful about Margaret's writing is that unfortunately it is timeless. She's exploring the ways that fascist states or authoritarian states are created and maintained. It's so unfortunate that it is so relevant right now, again, with the Testaments as the Handmaid's Tale was so timely when that was coming out.

[01:47:36] And then Ann Dowd said, just the gratitude to be in a show that leaves the living room and goes to the streets and the message of stale or be aware, put your phone down, get out on the street and protest because no one is going to do it for you. You do it for yourself to be a part of a show that does that. I mean, the first time I saw young women dressed up as handmaids on the street, I nearly fell off my bike. Literally, I was confused. I was about to call out to them thinking I was Lydia. Suddenly I was about to stop them.

[01:48:05] Just the power of that and how wonderful that is. Thank you, Margaret Atwood. I just thought that was funny to think of Ann Dowd walking down the street, seeing some handmaids and she should have absolutely been like, you come over here. Yeah. No, she should have walked up to them and said, blessed be the fruit. That would have been, I hope she did. Can you imagine? Oh my goodness. First, her looking at them and then them looking at her and realizing who it is.

[01:48:35] I don't know if I would be thrilled or freaked out. Yeah. If I was a woman dressed like a handmaid and freaking Aunt Lydia walked up. Yep. Yeah. So we're not going to have a feedback section because we didn't get any feedback. I'm just kidding. We're actually not going to have it because we got a lot of feedback and it's too much for this episode. We're already coming up on a couple hours.

[01:48:56] So we decided to do a separate feedback episode that will have everything we've gotten up until now plus for this week's episode coming up. So look for that coming out soon.

[01:49:26] All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next time on the podcast, The Testament, Season 1, Episode 9, Marath Saad. I assume that is pronounced that way? Sade? I don't know. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, please be sure to check out our other shows.

[01:49:55] We mentioned those last time, but I'll give Dragon Cast another mention because that's House of the Dragons coming out pretty soon. I can say that Run for the I can say that Run for Your Lives will be back on May 22nd with our season premiere 28 years later. Excellent. It's our first one. So we have a special guest for that one as well. Is it? Who is in there?

[01:50:23] It is Lucy is joining us. Oh, nice. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Is this for the Bone Temple? No, we have not done the first one. We waited a little bit of extra time. Okay. And yeah, we wanted to get out, have people have a chance to see it. It's just, it's easier that way. Okay. I still haven't seen Bone Temple yet. I just rewatched that because we're also covering that this season. All right.

[01:50:52] That's our show. Thanks for listening. Swim up, rod of flesh. You guys must think I'm stupid. Book talk. My one big thing is I'm, I think they might be switching up some of the girls arcs. Like, I wonder if Hulda is going to have some of Becca's arc.

[01:51:21] I don't know. By the way, spoilers. If you guys have heard this far and you don't want to hear any book spoilers, you should stop listening. I think everyone knows that by now. I just want to make sure. Yeah. So wait, who's Hulda and? Hulda and Becca. I'm wondering if parts of their arcs might get switched around. Yeah. I can see that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I definitely think Penny's being poisoned. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. That was my first thought.

[01:51:49] She just, her coloring, everything. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, she looked ill. Yeah. Like, ill. Not like just recovering, but actually physically sick. But it's the kind of thing where if you haven't read the book, you might not suspect anything. Because you know she just had a miscarriage. She just might think that she's just feeling really. And she may be, right? We may be wrong. But that was my first thought. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:52:15] I still, because we haven't seen any weddings yet, I'm still wondering if there might be some switching around of brides. If Penny dies. And commanders if Penny dies. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No. I thought that was unusual. What I was going to try to say before is I wonder if part of the reason Lydia made it

[01:52:40] so Garth could be eligible for marriage was to put him in a position to be a more effective spy if she's like, you know, in charge or whatever. But then it would have made more sense to marry him to Agnes for that reason. And so it's kind of weird that she didn't do that. If she cares more about, you know, putting him in a place where he can get the most information. It seems like the parents got to choose though, right?

[01:53:08] Like, seems like the aunts get to choose the three, but that the parents got to choose. But she didn't choose Agnes as one of the three even. Yeah. Yeah. And if she's trying to put him in a position where- I kind of think it was more about- Teaching Agnes a lesson. Showing her- But wouldn't it be more important if you're worried about Gilead to take your spy and put him in a good position? Yeah. But it seems like Lydia is not about the big moves, right?

[01:53:37] It's about the little moves. Mm-hmm. And she's also about keeping her hands as clean as possible. Uh-huh. She always has been that way that we've seen. And so I'm wondering if- I mean, it was a lot for her to even mention. To me, her going to Weston and talking about the Pearl Girl was kind of a risk. Mm-hmm.

[01:54:08] Even though she did it as, well, you know, she came here and I feel responsible. It doesn't matter. There's only so much or it's only certain ways you can push. And I feel like she might have been able to do that with Commander Lawrence, but I don't know about Weston. Yeah. He's- No. Lawrence is sort of halfway on her side already, so. Yeah.

[01:54:37] She could take more risks with him. Exactly. With- Mm-hmm. I just don't know how deep things run with these commanders, even though we saw Judd with Lydia at the beginning. And we know that she has that relationship with him from the book. I don't know how deep things run because Judd was already talking with Vidala. Yeah. About something. And you don't know- About overpowering or overtaking Lydia. Yeah.

[01:55:06] And is that because he really believes Vidala should take Lydia's place or is it because he's trying to figure out how loyal Vidala is to Lydia? I mean, to me, he did it in the same episode where Lydia was giving him shit about the commanders getting the women drunk. So it felt like he was like, oh, you're going to stand up to me? Then I'm just going to remove you from power and pick somebody else who will kowtow to me more. That's what it seemed like to me.

[01:55:34] Yes, but she must have been doing that to him all, you know, longer than this. I mean, it, yeah. I just feel like there was- I think she has something on Judd and she doesn't have anything on Weston. Well, maybe she'll get something on Weston. Yeah. Yeah. You know that- But I think that's why Judd wants to get rid of her because she's got something on Judd. She's very good at facilitating and manipulating things.

[01:56:05] To come out with her being on top or in her direction, like it going positively for her. I mean, yeah, we still need to find out how she went from almost being hanged to being the leader of the school. Yeah. How did this all happen? Did Judd bail her out? I mean, really? He could have bailed her out. Truth. So, I guess we'll see.

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