The Testaments S1E9 "Marat Sade"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Podcast to go! You okay?

[00:00:38] Valley of the shadow of the death, I will fear no evil because I know he is with me. Even if I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil because I know he is with me. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne. And I'm Wendy. And I'm Jason.

[00:01:09] And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast: The Testaments. This week we're covering The Testaments Season 1, Episode 9. And I'm gonna still say it wrong. Marat Sade? That's correct. I think that's right. Okay. That is correct. We just talked about it. I'm still gonna get it wrong.

[00:01:32] I cannot believe that we are at Episode 9 and that we're gonna be doing the finale next week. It just seems crazy to me. I think... And I mentioned this before we started recording, but when a show is really good, I think the whole podcasting process, perspective, all of that goes so fast during that season,

[00:02:00] that it seems like we just started doing this like two or three weeks ago. And it's been, you know, eight episodes. This is number nine. Plus we did a feedback episode. It's just gone so fast. Yeah. I can't believe it. It's crazy. When it's not a great season, then it goes by much slower. It does.

[00:02:22] It's hard to get excited to watch an episode twice if either the season isn't going well or if the episode isn't good. Mm-hmm . But I don't feel that way with this show overall. I think every episode has contributed significantly to getting us where we are. I don't think that there are any episodes that were more fluff or frivolous. I feel like they've been very intentional.

[00:02:49] And also varied, which I enjoy, you know? Yeah. Kind of mix it up a little bit, show different aspects. Yeah. You don't know what you're going to get in the episode because I know we've talked about, we have screeners, but there's no next on. There's no preview. Yeah. We have no idea when it's over. There's nothing. Yeah. And we can't cheat and go online and get someone else's point of view either. Nope. Yeah.

[00:03:17] I kind of like that though. I like that. But you don't really have the capacity to go digging around anywhere because no one knows because we can't post about it until the episode drops. And so you really dig into yourself and think and formulate your opinions without any bias at all. Mm-hmm . And I like that. I think that that is actually cool because I'm one of those people that does like to go online and dig into everything.

[00:03:45] I want to know all the backstory. I want to know all the details. Can't do that. And I will do that once we, once this episode drops, I go and do it after, but it's cool to be able to have that clean perspective right from the start. Mm-hmm . And then see if I change my mind either after talking to the two of you or reading what other people have to say. Yeah.

[00:04:13] So anyway, general thoughts on this one. Um, I'll go first. We've been concerned about Becca this whole time, especially I think the last four or five episodes. And now I'm incredibly concerned even more. Um, I'm not sure how they're, or if they're going to get out of this situation with her and how this is going to affect things. We may never see Becca again.

[00:04:41] We may never see Becca again. I mean, honestly it's Gilead. Yeah. It reminded me of the season finale of the Handmaid's Tale. Yeah. Where June got taken away in a van. Yeah. Yeah. The eyes coming out to take Becca, the way that they came around, it just reminded me of like Dementors from Harry Potter. It was just so intense. Yeah. And so like evil.

[00:05:09] That's not how the Handmaid's Tale ended the first season, right? Yeah. Just like the book, wasn't it? I don't think so. I have this memory of her walking down the stairs and seeing Nick. Yeah, look it up. On the garage and that being the last scene. Handmaid's Tale wiki. Yeah, I'm there already.

[00:05:38] So episode one ends with Moira reaching Canada. Yeah, a black van comes for June. The Waterfords were unaware of it. Nick urges her to trust him. Yeah. And to go with them. And as June is leaving in the van, she whispers to Rita where to find the letters, which was the letters from Jezebel's and Moira reaches Canada and is granted asylum and reunited.

[00:06:07] I need to rewatch that show. Really? I can't. I have this like specific memory, but it must be from season one, but it's just not that scene of her walking out the stairs and music playing. And her looking over at Nick who's standing, you know, where his home was above the garage. I mean, in my memory, it was like the book. The book ends. Right. Spoilers with her being taken away in a van.

[00:06:36] But that was sort of just the cliffhanger for. Right. Yeah. Right. And I think we've talked about it in book club, how the book ends that way. Like how season one is the book. Yeah. And in that case, you know, it was not the eyes from my understanding. It was either made a or made a sympathizers organized by Nick to take June to relative safety here.

[00:06:59] We have Garth involved, but I don't think he has the resources that Nick had just given how he's talked about only having one handler. And he doesn't just seem to know that much. He's freaked out by anything going not according to plan. So I don't think that this is a similar situation. I think Beck is in big trouble. Yeah, I think Beck is in. She's in big trouble. This is not something I think Garth could have gotten her out of. I don't know that anyone can. Not without. Yeah.

[00:07:29] Like there's nothing he could have done. He didn't want to blow his cover, but even if he did, there's nothing he could have done. I don't know. There's nothing now because he, you know, you just imagine back is going to disappear. Either she's going to get killed or go to the car. I don't know. Like, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'll know in about an hour and a half when I start to watch that. I hope you find out what happens. Yeah. Not just see her again, but that's a part.

[00:07:56] She's been a character that we have connected with from the beginning. And I feel like the actress does such a great job bringing this character to life. Mm hmm. It will be sad if this is her fate, but I just don't know how they can get out of that. Um, anyway, what do you guys think, Wendy? That was probably the worst scene in the entire series for me so far. Yeah.

[00:08:24] You could feel it right through the screen. I felt just this terror. I felt back. I mean, the whole, the whole. Yeah. The whole scene from beginning to, you know, till she, she's cutting the flowers from that till the end. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Just sort of saying like, Oh, what'd you think of this episode? It's so hard with these shows. Cause it's like, Oh, it's awful. Five out of five stars. I love it. When people die like this, I use a fan.

[00:08:54] It was an amazing episode and just, yeah, that's what I thought. You can, you know what? You can appreciate a show, even though terrible things happen. And I mean, how often were we talking not on a podcast about game of Thrones and how amazing it was when terrible things happened every week. I mean, this is the same. Yeah. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive.

[00:09:24] We've on as well. I mean, this is a podcast. We're going to dive into it. So who wants to go first? I will. Is that okay? That is totally fine. I think it's your turn. Okay. Yeah. I, I'm just going to go through, um, Becca's story up to the points where she stabs her father.

[00:09:46] So the first half, um, so I've been saying on the podcast, I wasn't sure, but I kind of thought Becca's father had not molested her and was just focusing on his clients at work. And, um, now I know I absolutely, even though it wasn't explicitly said, I fully turned around on that. I think he totally did.

[00:10:10] And I think she had it in her head that they had like a special relationship or something, or he just painted some twisted picture of what was happening and what it meant. And she, she convinced herself that it was fine. And that's why she was so positive to him about, uh, about him to Agnes saying like, my dad will take care of you. It's going to be great. You know? And I think, I do think that the writers knew that a lot of us would be questioning whether

[00:10:37] he did anything to her throughout this episode or whether it was just a patience. Um, the first part of her story here in this episode is like establishing that she doesn't trust Daisy and sees Daisy as a threat. And I wonder if that's just so that when Daisy accuses her father and she says, you're a liar that we might still think that she's just saying that because she doesn't trust Daisy and doesn't want, uh, to think anything bad about her father.

[00:11:04] It was kind of a bummer actually, to me, to see her against Daisy. You know, I think she's a little jealous of Agnes spending time with her and upset. Agnes never comes over to her house. She doesn't know at that point that her father touched Agnes. But then, um, during the quote plumbing up ceremony, Becca accidentally stabs her with a pin. That was kind of funny. Yeah.

[00:11:30] I kind of expected that was going to happen when she gave her the honor of doing it. I thought there's no way Daisy's not getting stuck. But Daisy, you know, showed her so much kindness and understanding at the ball. That's kind of why I was bummed out about it, but that's beside the point. So, uh, then back over at Becca's house, Garth is there talking to her mother about wedding plans, waiting for Dr. Grove. He arrives. Becca looks kind of worried cause she can see that he's upset.

[00:11:55] And I, I was like, I don't think she consciously suspects that he's been accused, but maybe something subconscious. And then when Grove tells them that this girl made baseless acts accusations against me, I've never laid a hand on her that just, it's so fucked up how these molesters can deny accusations. So fervently, I think about Bill Cosby, you know, just the face of that.

[00:12:25] The face of morality in America. It's so weird. America's dad. Yeah. Yeah. You have to remember though, Jason, from that point of view, he was telling the absolute truth. He did not lay a finger on Daisy. He did nothing to her. That's true. But he was so righteous about it as if to say, why did anyone ever even think that about me? But you're right. I mean, so then she see Becca seems taken aback and I think she's.

[00:12:56] Kind of in a fog, but trying, this is all just sort of armchair psychology slash speculation, but trying to hold on to the idea that her father is an innocent and a good man. And then she goes to the school and it costs Daisy. You liar. Are you trying to ruin my life? Are you just crazy? And I think part of the reason to hold on to this fiction that she has is she knows that if her father, that he could be killed because of this, that would leave her own future uncertain.

[00:13:24] That just really hit me hard that you have to be a nuclear family in Gilead with a mother. And most importantly, a father, because a mother can be replaced, but a father can't to have status and to be a part of the system. And so Becca's life kind of depends on her father being a good man, which, you know, so she doesn't want to let herself realize that, that he isn't. That's one reason why. Uh, but Agnes senses that what's going on and says, um, to Becca, after something like that happens, sometimes it's easier to blame everyone else.

[00:13:54] And Becca says, no, he didn't touch me. And Agnes says, well, he did touch me. And that's where, okay, here's someone that I do trust telling me that she's shaking her head and doesn't want to believe it because of what it would mean to face that her father assaulted another girl would mean she'd have to face that. What he did to her wasn't good. That's what I think. Then at dinner, uh, I, Becca's mom's really interesting. Well, she says they say reheated meat can be chewy, but I thought it came out just fine.

[00:14:23] I'm like, that is the most uninspired thing anyone's ever said. Um, but how she just goes on about food and mundane topics shows me that she's good at ignoring what's right in front of her face. And distracting herself with mundane things. Cause she doesn't want to see it. She's the same way. If she were to see what was going on, then it would threaten her existence too. Uh, that's the shitty thing about being a woman in Gilead is you're just so dependent on men to be good.

[00:14:52] And most of them aren't. So anyway, Becca just cuts through that BS with a knife goes, is it true? And he goes, of course not. And the way that they looked at each other, it was really interesting. Cause that's when I knew for sure that he had touched her because the way they looked at each other, they had a connection.

[00:15:10] Like she's, there's so much going on in that look that under the surface, you know, like I think in that moment, Becca is her whole concept of her father's changing and she's realizing what he really is. And mom's just still going on about sweet peas and whatever. And then that night she stabs him to death. And I just don't think that's a reaction of you hurt my friends. I think that's a reaction of you betrayed me.

[00:15:40] You hurt me. Right. I think it's both. Yeah. It could be both, but more. I, you're right. It's probably both. I think it's more like, Oh my God, everything I thought about you was wrong. Yeah. That was rage. I mean, that was quiet rage from her. That conversation they had at dinner. What struck me was he started the conversation. The mom was just like you said, talking about the meat.

[00:16:10] And it was like, he started the conversation. He said, say something. And he's talking to Becca. It was like, mom wasn't in the room. Yeah. It was like, they were like challenging her. Are you going to, you're going to go along with this or, or not? You know? Yeah.

[00:16:29] And I think this is her finally having the veil pulled over from her eyes and realizing, Oh, I was a victim is maybe like a wider metaphor for what all these girls and women are experiencing in Gilead, especially the ones that are growing up. The system and haven't seen anything else there. They don't understand how violated and oppressed they are, you know?

[00:16:53] And to some degree, the show is challenging all women to look around and say, Oh, how's my life like that at all? You know, or any person really, but mostly women.

[00:17:06] Well, and Davey's insertion into this story and her experiences from outside, like in Toronto are kind of, it makes me think of that movie with Reese Witherspoon, where she goes back to the fifties and everything is black and white. And then it starts being cut. Like things start coming to color.

[00:17:31] It's like, it's that thing that changes the trajectory of everything. Tobey Maguire. I can't remember the name. Yeah. I can't remember the bill. There you go. It's like Pleasantville. How one new variable inserted into a situation can change everything around it. And I feel like Daisy has had that effect. Mm hmm. And little by little, some of the other girls have started to realize like some different things.

[00:18:00] But I think this was Becca's episode to realize that her little world that she had, even if it wasn't always happy. Is now completely destroyed with this, with Daisy coming forward with these accusations. And I think had it just been Daisy, I think they would have swept it under the rug. Mm hmm. But they have the others to back it up.

[00:18:27] And so because of that, they know they can't sweep under the rug. Plus Judd had heard about it prior to this as well. Yeah. Yeah. So this isn't a new thing. And Daisy was so public and dramatic about it. That probably had an impact. Oh man. You know. Yeah. Yeah. That, that in itself is another, another point in this discussion today. Mm hmm.

[00:18:55] Actually, this episode made me doubt it more than the other episodes, like doubt if she had been molested by her father, just because I just thought eventually they would. Blurt it out plainly, but maybe it's much more subtle than that.

[00:19:14] But that scene between the two of them, it was like, if this were true, wouldn't you be much more concerned about what your wife thought instead of your daughter? Yeah. You know, but it was like, he wasn't even addressing his wife. Yeah. I think he kind of has his wife handled. He realizes. And with her, he's worked hard. I mean, we don't know. You're right. Yeah.

[00:19:43] Maybe he didn't touch her, but if I'm right. And he did. He's just worked really hard to frame reality in a certain way for her. And now you can see that she's starting to doubt it. So he's really challenging her. Yeah. Or maybe this is the way it's always been in that his and Becca's relationship is kind of the primary relationship in the house. Right. And, and, and mom has just accepted that, you know, as well as so many other things, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:20:13] It reminded me a little bit of American beauty with Ricky, Ricky fits. Is that his name? The kid next door. Yeah. And his mom is just totally out of it. Yeah. And yeah, I don't know, but I always loved the movie, even though it had. Yeah. I love that. Problematic Kevin Spacey in it. Yep. Okay. Wendy. All right.

[00:20:43] I'm going to keep talking about Becca. I wanted to talk about how violence begets violence. Becca stabs her father to death in this shocking, very disturbing, heartbreaking for all that, you know, is while she's doing it, you know, the consequences are going to be horrifying. Yeah. Right. Like worried for her as she's doing. Yeah.

[00:21:10] I mean, like we should like, we should love Grove getting his just desserts. Right. Like, just like we did Fred. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, it seemed like such a surprising violence. Um, you know, you have this horrifying, violent death perpetrated by this small, meek, powerless girl.

[00:21:37] But you know, this is exactly what Gilead has created. You know, we started off the episode with the girls mopping up some poor schmuck. We don't even know what happened, what appendage he got sawed off or I, he got stabbed out of him. Um, Gilead has conditioned these girls to see violence as righteousness.

[00:22:02] Becca's act, it feels really shocking and, um, disturbing and, and tragic. But it also, if you think about it feels like, you know, it might've been inevitable for this to continue these kinds of things to continue to happen in this place where they've taught children that brutality is a form of justice. Yeah.

[00:22:28] Um, you know, from the time they're young, they're, they've been forced to participate in this type of violence. Um, you know, they're talking about having Dr. Grove be salvaged. Only Lydia's the one who says, Hey, maybe we should wait until Becca's married. So she's not participating. For people who don't know, by the way, salvage in this case means executed. Judge said it so casually, but he means. Yes. Yes.

[00:22:55] I mean, torn apart by, by hands, um, executions, public punishments. And these are designed not only to terrorize the girls from a very young age, but also to desensitize them to this violence. I mean, the episode opened with S day talking about eye for an eye tooth for tooth. Yep. Yeah. And then Becca's telling Agnes it's divine justice. Like what? This is what we've been taught.

[00:23:24] Like everything you're saying, it feels like it was in that moment. Yeah. Um, they've been encouraged to do this violence. If not even like culturally forced to cheer when people are being mutilated. Um, it says if they believe that cruelty is part of the moral order. Mm hmm. And there are some societies, some cultures that still do this.

[00:23:53] Um, and so, you know, they're just ritualizing this violence. They're turning it into a shared act of some type. And I, I think we talked about this in the first episode where we saw the guardian having his arm sawed off.

[00:24:10] Um, but you know, when she finds out about this thing that has happened between Grove and Agnes, she responds with what she's been taught. You know, violence is justice. If, if I kill him, he can't hurt anybody else. That's protection. Right. This is my moral duty to do this. Um, mercy is weakness.

[00:24:41] You know, vengeance is virtue. And the regime has created these traumatized children. And I don't think it's as simple as that in that. I don't think it's as simple as well. Becca just thought this was justice because I do think. Becca completely unraveled in the last few episodes. I mean, I honestly, the whole first season is kind of Becca unraveling. Yeah. So I think at all here. Yeah. Like shock. And yeah.

[00:25:10] But you can see what the way she's talking, right? That she's like, well, you know, this was justice. This was God's justice. Um, and so I just, you know, wanted to talk about like violence, begetting violence. It's kind of like the death penalty, you know, um, and society, you know, you'll see things

[00:25:36] online where somebody who has perpetrated a crime and they're, you know, a lot of people will respond with that with talks of vengeance and justice. And, and I, I hate to, I don't want to offend anybody, but I sometimes feel critical of religion

[00:25:57] in that I, I see some people, not everyone who have a lot of faith and they feel righteous in that faith. And so they can have black and white thinking about good and evil. And like Estee in the show is a good example of someone who just seems her personality seems lovely.

[00:26:21] She's, uh, she's got a light in her, but she's also just feeling, she feels so righteous that it is God's will that this whole eye for an eye thing that she can have that same smile on her face as they're sawing through a man's hand.

[00:26:40] You know, it's just, it's so disturbing to me that sometimes people who just seem so gentle can have such harshness about them because it's grounded in this, um, righteousness. Yep. Okay. I feel like there's not much we haven't talked about when it comes to Becca. So I'm going to kind of, um, from my point, I'm just going to kind of finish it off. Yeah.

[00:27:10] There's a little more though, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Becca, I feel like she goes into this psychosis basically where she is covered in blood. She goes downstairs, puts on a Martha's like cloak and scarf and goes to, she goes to Agnes's Zilla brings her upstairs.

[00:27:38] And so she goes, Zilla wakes up Agnes and brings Agnes into the bathroom where Becca is there. And the cleanup, like Agnes tells Becca, well, we need to get you cleaned up. And they run a bath for her. She gets in the bath and it's kind of like the cleanup that we saw at the beginning of the episode. But it's, but it's different.

[00:28:06] It's Becca's body and they're cleaning her up. And Becca just wants to run away with Agnes. She tells her she wants to run away with her. And then the thing that really struck me though, about everything that she was saying during that point was Agnes, I would do anything for you.

[00:28:29] And I think that she absolutely meant it because I still do believe that Becca did this to her father because she was angry about what he did to Agnes. But also I do believe that something happened between Becca and her father.

[00:28:52] And it's not something that she was just going to blurt out like earlier on in the episode when Agnes was explaining to her what happened. And Becca is standing there listening to Agnes basically say what her father did. And Becca is having to reconcile this in her head where she's thinking about he did this to Agnes. Agnes is who I love. But I thought my father, you know, we had this special bond.

[00:29:21] I feel like she was processing so many things in her head at the same time. Yeah. She was never. I think if she had nothing had happened between her and her father, it would play a little differently because the way I saw it, she's just like, as soon as she realized, oh, he did do that. Then she kind of knew she didn't even have any questions about it. Like, wait, what exactly happened? She just knew.

[00:29:48] Oh, I know exactly what you're doing to them because that's what you do to me. That's the feeling I got from it. Yeah. That's the feeling I got to. And I, I didn't feel like given what these girls were brought up in, I didn't feel like Becca was going to tell Agnes because it there's a stigma. I mean, you can't. What is she going to do? Tell Agnes, well, he did it to me. And then what's going to happen? It takes some time at least, you know, she has to sort of process a little bit first.

[00:30:16] She has to process through because she knows this is the death of her father. She knows that, that if he is found guilty, he will die. And so that's a lot for her to have to have on her conscience. But I think she had to come to terms with a lot of things. And she is full of hormones.

[00:30:41] And I felt when she killed her father, it was rage. I felt a lot of rage. It wasn't the in your face screaming rage because that was such a quiet scene. And the way that they shot it and made it so quiet. You're looking at him. He's in the bath. And all of a sudden he makes this noise because he's been stabbed. That's what you hear.

[00:31:07] Like you're hearing drips of water or different little sounds around, but it's so quiet until it isn't. And Becca even describes it at the end about what the sound is like. It's the sucking sound, you know, like you're pulling your arm out of mud. And it's because at that point, what are you talking about? You know, with the stab? Yeah. At that point, Becca was just gone.

[00:31:35] And in any, if this were the regular world, not Gilead, Becca would have gone to see a psychologist. They would have evaluated her. All of these things would have happened. Probably earlier interventions would have happened. But these girls were conditioned not to say anything. And it was only because Huldah told Agnes that this even got started.

[00:32:02] Who knows how many other girls that he had molested? I mean, who really knows? Other than we know that he did because Judd has heard rumors. Yeah. Yeah. And you can just sort of at the very least not be surprised by that. Yeah. It's very hard to think that there are any men in Gilead that have a moral conscience, really.

[00:32:31] Because so many of them that we have been introduced to have been morally corrupt. I think it's hard. Like what? Like I was thinking about Garth.

[00:32:47] Like he does a lot of bad shit and he does it so that he can keep his position so that he can be a Mayday spy. But like how different is that from Mackenzie? You know, who's like doing things but doesn't seem like he's completely on board.

[00:33:11] Well, the difference with Garth and this very much reminded me of Andor, if anyone's seen that. Have you guys seen that show? I haven't. I haven't, but I've heard it's really in tune with things right now. This episode reminded me a lot about it because there's a lot of sacrifice. It's about a rebellion with spies and a lot of actions that seem like, oh, that's really shitty. But it's considered a sacrifice for the greater good because you're trying to take down the Empire. And here he's trying to take down Gilead.

[00:33:41] Mackenzie's not trying to take down Gilead. He's trying to, I guess, you know, keep the birth rate up or whatever. But I think he's really misguided. Garth, on the other hand, it's more complicated in my view because he's trying to take down Gilead. But I get what you're saying because at the end of the scene, I was mighty angry at Garth. I was feeling not good towards Garth. But you're right.

[00:34:05] Like, if he tries to do this thing, then he'll probably fail. Yeah. And then he won't be in a position to do more. And I think, you know, same thing, same concept about we haven't really gotten into Daisy yet. But being pissed at Daisy for doing this, it's like, okay, maybe you save this one girl, but then you're going to get yourself killed or something. And now we won't be getting the information that we need to take down Gilead, you know?

[00:34:34] But I think she doesn't understand that because, A, she's just a girl. Yeah. And B, she doesn't know Gilead the way these girls, the way Garth knows Gilead. She also wants to, but she's just so, this is going to sound like negative, but she's just so impulsive and very much driven by her sense of justice, right?

[00:34:58] She's so, like, she was afraid, but that fear was completely erased as soon as she found out what this Dennis did. And she took action. And I can see Garth's point of view, but I also love Daisy even more now. Right. You know, like, she's- She reminded me of June. So much of June. Absolutely. Oh, it's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. She- She's a hero. Has a- Yeah. She has a similar personality.

[00:35:24] I think she sees injustice and she can't just stand by. Yeah. Like, when she was in that dentist's office and she started going crazy, I was like, what is she doing? But then I was like, that's June. Yeah. Yeah. That's what- Yeah. This is something June would do. Yeah. Maybe with a little more finesse. And then when Agnes, Becca's like, let's run away.

[00:35:54] And Agnes says, okay. And I'm like, oh, she doesn't mean that. She's going to tell somebody. And she comes back with her father. And I'm just like, well, I don't- What could Agnes have done? Like, she's just a girl. She doesn't- Like, if it was June in that situation, which it would never be because she's the wrong age, but she would have figured out a way to try to get Becca out of trouble. But Agnes doesn't have the wherewithal for that. She doesn't, right.

[00:36:20] And she doesn't want to risk her life as, you know, the only life she knows. And so I didn't really blame her for doing that. Plus, she was shocked when the eye showed up. She didn't know that was going to happen. She thought she was going to go to a doctor, you know? Yeah. Agnes went to one person that she trusted, which is her father. Right. Like, she trusts her father. Yeah, that relationship's going to be a little- She went to him and asked him to help Becca. You're right.

[00:36:48] This is going to make a difference for Agnes, I think. This is going to- This is, you know, we've talked a little bit, or I mentioned earlier how people are now, or the girls, little by little, have been seeing the world a little differently because of things that have been happening. And I feel like this is going to be a real turning point for Agnes, maybe, because she thought she could trust her father to help. And he did what he had.

[00:37:17] I mean, as a high-ranking commander, this is what he had to do. He couldn't- He does what he always does. Rationalizes why he should go along with the only ad. Exactly. But now she might have a problem with that, hopefully. Right. And again, Daisy was always exposed to growing up in a world where people were held accountable for the most part. Women had more control.

[00:37:43] And so to be here and see them in this situation and see that Mayday is not doing anything to help Becca, it's because Mayday, they have to look at the bigger picture, which is winning the war. They can't focus on it from an individualistic point of view, even though we know that June does, because June wants to get handed back. They were ready to let all the Jezebels be killed, right?

[00:38:13] And June's the one that insisted on going and then trying to warn Janine. Yeah. I was also thinking if Becca only would have just waited, then she had let Lydia hold off on all of this, then maybe she would have been married to Garth, who would treat her well, and then her father would have been executed by the state. You know? If Agnes couldn't think that far ahead. No.

[00:38:39] She was full of anger and fear and devastation. Like, Becca had so many emotions going on in her head at that point that I really do think she went into psychosis, some sort of psychosis, and didn't fully really probably understand what she was doing at the time. I think she had a mental breakdown. Yeah. Because she's been talking about wanting to run away.

[00:39:09] Like, she was really curious about what it's like for Daisy. And now she's like, let's just run away and go. I don't care where we go. It's going to be fine. And it's like, oh, no. Yeah. It's not going to be fine. She's been thinking about running away for a while. Yeah. Yeah. She wants to escape her life. She's not happy. She's ever since we met her. There really hasn't been super happiness because we're looking at it. I mean, even from the beginning, she didn't want to get married. Right.

[00:39:37] Which is not a Gilead teenage girl. Right. I mean, they have to get married. It's what you do. I was sort of wondering if her falling in love with Agnes could have something to do with her developing a deep distrust of males because of her father. Yes. I mean, that's possible. Yes. I mean. I mean. Yeah. I mean, if you learn early that men are not OK.

[00:40:07] Mm hmm. And you have your friend who. I mean. There was no one else that she felt she could trust. No one else. No. Not her mother. Not Garth. No. It was only going to be Agnes. Yeah. There was one scene earlier between Garth and Becca that I really liked. And it's when she is visibly like stressed.

[00:40:37] And Garth tells her a joke about his dad coming home, slamming the door. And it ended up being that he needed to go to the bathroom and it being something very silly. He's trying to be reassuring. Yeah. Yeah. He's always. Yeah. He's been kind to her. And I think that. Tilly brought the eyes over to her house. But. Well. Yeah. I mean. There have been comparisons online.

[00:41:07] From him. Like looking at him as being like Nick. But he definitely doesn't have like a lot of resources. But Nick didn't either at the beginning. Although I think he had more than Garth. Yeah. He set it up for people to come and pretend to be eyes and rescue June somehow. Yeah. So in this situation, Garth really didn't have a choice. And they. You always have choices.

[00:41:34] But his choice wouldn't have been a good choice. Didn't have any good choices. Yeah. And they had to tell Agnes. The Mackenzie's or. Kyle Mackenzie had to tell Agnes that they were going to take her to a doctor. Because Agnes never would have let Becca leave the house. If not. It would have been. Horrific. Like. Watching her get pulled out of the house. Because that's what would have happened.

[00:42:04] Had they not. Said. Oh yeah. We're going to send her to a doctor. Go with Garth. Agnes. Would. Would have had a fit. So. Jason. We're back to you. All right. Let's talk about. Daisy's revenge. So. The episode. Opens with the Pearl Girls. Cleaning up. Blood. And. I. At first thought. This was a flashback to the guy who got his hand cut off. But.

[00:42:33] I wonder if it's just like. Oh. They did another one. Because it's sort of routine. It's Tuesday. Yeah. You know. Some of us eat tacos on Tuesday. This is toes. And tonsil Tuesday. No. So. Anyway. It gives Daisy the idea to enact vengeance on Grove. Because. Estes going on about an eye for an eye. Tooth for tooth. And. She said.

[00:43:02] Melanie used to say an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Which. I agree with. But also. I think people need to be held accountable in some way. And Daisy has no options. To hold. To make it so that. Grove is held accountable. Except for. The one she exercised here. So she goes and rings the period bell. And I love that she attempted the spiel. As he blessed Leah and Ruth. He too saved me from barrenness. And.

[00:43:31] Uh. I got my period. And I like that Lydia laughed at that. She had a sense of humor about it. Um. By the way. When Agnes went through that whole spiel. And. Uh. Named a bunch of women from the Bible. And. Including Leah and Ruth. And others. Rachel, Sarah, Rebecca. And I mentioned they're all biblical women. Associated with fertility and motherhood. And some of them couldn't have. Um. Babies for a while. But then.

[00:44:00] Seemed to miraculously be able to. I'd forgotten that the official name of the Red Center. Where the Handmaids were housed and trained. Was the Rachel and Leah Center. So that's. The same women out of that speech. Anyway. So. Now. Daisy. Like. She's. She's putting herself in a lot of danger. Like. Her main goal. For the last couple episodes. Has been to make sure that nobody finds out. That she's had her period. And. But her fear is outweighed by her indignation. Which. You know. We just said a minute ago. That just makes me admire her. Even more than I already did.

[00:44:30] And then. I'm always impressed by how fast things move. Sometimes. In Gilead. And on these shows. Because. She's immediately. A plum. So now we know at least one possible path. For a Pearl girl. And when they had. Este has the girls. Plum her up. Um. I thought. I. I think. That's. There's something appealing about the communal ceremony. Of things in this society. You know. Just.

[00:45:01] To make a big deal. And be. And you get to be the center of it. Um. And she says. My mom always told me that purple is my power color. I didn't know what she meant until now. And then. Speaking about how quickly things happen. Este immediately takes her to the dentist. And Agnes. Asks to go with. And. Holder looks upset. What are you guys getting yourself into? I guess. But. So then at the dentist office.

[00:45:30] Grove kind of gives Agnes a look. Before taking Daisy in. And then he doesn't do anything to her. And I wonder if that's because he saw Agnes there. And thought maybe they were trying to build a case against him. So he decided to be careful this time. I thought it was because. She's a pearl girl. And Agnes. And Hulda. Have been indoctrinated since practically birth. Into this society. Where they have to keep silent.

[00:45:59] And if a man has lust on them. It's their fault. But he knows Daisy has not been brought up on that. Right. He's even talking about her being from Canada and everything. Uh huh. That's what I thought. That makes sense. I thought. She was too great a risk. For him. Did she. Did you guys think that maybe. Daisy thought she'd have more time before this dentist appointment? Yeah. She's like already. Yeah. For sure. And I wondered what she was planning. Or.

[00:46:29] Was it just that she was apprehensive about it? I think so. I think she did what she. Yeah. She thought he would do something. And then she'd scream. And he didn't. So she screamed anyway. Yeah. So then. Yeah. That was the end of. Where I decided to stop. Just that. She. Tears her shirt. And starts screaming. Try to touch me. She was great. Please protect me. She was great. She did it in a way that like.

[00:46:58] And then when they were questioning her. You know. The other girls are so meek and subtle. And she's like. No. No. It was my. It was his penis. Yeah. He made me touch. Yeah. He put my hand on his penis. Yeah. Sorry to be so blunt. But I just want to make it clear. Yeah. Yeah. But so. I mean. I actually thought. She could have done a better acting job. Because she didn't seem. Rattled. She seemed very like. No. This is what he did. Like.

[00:47:28] You know. I mean. She could have like. Seemed a little more rattled. Yeah. I mean. I think Lucy Halliday did a great job. Because she was. Yeah. Acting the part of a person who's not. The best actor. But anyway. Yeah. Then. She's good though. But Lydia knew like. Oh. It was fortunate that he was so reckless. As to tear your blouse. Yeah. With witnesses. Lust makes men reckless. I'm choosing not to think on it too deeply. Instead. I thank the Lord for shining his light. On Dr. Grove's evil. I think the translation of that is.

[00:47:57] You could have done a better job. Of making this believable. And you better hope no one figures it out. But also. I'm going to use this. So. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I got the impression that Lydia. Absolutely knew that she had. That this was not real. Yes. And there has to be a part of Lydia. That's impressed by that. Like. Right. What. Yeah. The lengths she would go to. Yeah. To protect her friends. Yeah. But I like that she basically chided her. Like. You need to up your game a little bit.

[00:48:29] Mm-hmm. I think the aunts believed her. Because they've also heard the rumors. About Grove from previous. I think. That's why. The other aunts believed her. Maybe not Lydia. And. Agnes seems to see Daisy in a new way. She's kind of putting it all together. That Daisy. Isn't acting the way other Pearl girls. Act.

[00:48:59] And Daisy isn't acting the way she expects. Yeah. And. She's starting to wonder about what Daisy's motivations are. Yeah. What are you doing here? You're not. Yeah. You don't want to be a Gilead person. You're not acting like you want to. And at one point. In. In the beginning of the episode. Becca is talking quietly to Agnes. And asking her why she doesn't come over her house. And how she's.

[00:49:28] Gotten so close with Daisy. And. She says. She's a spy. And Becca's like. Face whips over at her. But of course she means she's a spy for the aunts. Yeah. That was a good sort of fake out for us too. We're like. Yeah. How did you know that? Yeah. For Lydia. Yeah. But I think. Agnes is kind of putting all the pieces together. And thinking. What is Daisy? Mm-hmm. I don't know if she's putting the pieces together. She. She. Yet.

[00:49:58] You know. But she definitely knows that. She knows something isn't adding up. Yeah. Yeah. And. Again. Just like you said Jason. Like. Daisy. Is trying to enact justice for Hulda and Agnes. Yes. But. In doing so. She like. Sets off this chain reaction. That. Is going to change everything. For all of them. Forever. Probably. Probably.

[00:50:27] And I'm wondering. Like the comment they made about Maddox. Which didn't seem to have a purpose. But I'm fearful that. Daisy's going to get matched with Maddox. Although they said next season for Daisy. But you just. You never know where it's going. Or like one of our listeners said. Which I hadn't even thought of until they said it. About her being the handmaid for. Right. The Mackenzie's. Which is. Just sort of.

[00:50:58] To remind listeners. Maddox is the guy who. Gave alcohol to Becca. And. Yeah. In this episode. Aunt Lydia was saying. Oh he didn't get matched up. But I promised him. Cream of the crop next year. Who knows if he'll even make that far. I. What I took from that is. You're just going to keep putting him off until he dies. Aunt Lydia is just hoping he dies. Before it happens. Yeah. Yeah. But you think maybe Daisy could end up with him. Yeah. I couldn't think of any other reason for them to.

[00:51:27] You know flash on his picture and have that comment. Yeah. But I. It just feels like. Daisy just. You know loaded the pot with all this pressure. And it. It was just bound to explode. I. Think. She. She definitely did. And. When they were in the prayer circle. And she saw Becca come in with Agnes.

[00:51:56] After Gabbana had gone out to get them. Because they're not supposed to be outside by themselves talking. And all the ruckus that was caused. That is the moment that I think Daisy started to realize. Exactly. What she had. Done. That this was going to affect things bigger than just doing something to help. Protect Agnes and Hulda. This is going to affect Becca. And.

[00:52:23] It's much bigger than just this. Situation with Agnes and Hulda. It's going to have a bigger effect. That's probably going to be like a ripple effect. Totally. Totally. It's going to start. And it's just going to keep going. You were talking about. The ants believed. Daisy. And. Seeing. Este. All broken up about not having. Protected. Daisy.

[00:52:53] Made me think. Maybe. Agnes and Hulda. Should have went to her. Instead of Vidala. You know. Maybe she would have been way more sympathetic. And done something about it. That she's all into that eye for an eye thing. So you can imagine. What her punishment for Dr. Grove would have been. Yeah. Then. Yeah. With Agnes. How. She's like kind of thrown by. What are you. What are you actually up to? Did he. Actually.

[00:53:23] Hurt you. Or did you fake it? She's kind of. Suspicious. And. I think she's also thinking. Agnes. About how she didn't want to step forward herself. And instead pushed Hulda. There. Out of fear. It would backfire. And. Now she sees that Daisy. Did step forward. And take this risk. That Agnes had decided. She didn't want to take herself. That's why she's sort of like. Wait. Why don't. I didn't want to take the risk. Why do you. But. Then she runs home. And starts panicking.

[00:53:53] And hyperventilating. And I wasn't exactly sure. Why. Like what is she. Agnes had a. Agnes had a panic attack. Like that was a panic attack. That she had. Why. I'm not sure if she's feeling guilty. She didn't step up to. Or shaken. That Daisy might be. I mean. I don't think she would be that shaken. Just that Daisy. There might be something up with Daisy. I wonder. I think she's starting to figure out. That Daisy is not. Yeah.

[00:54:23] But. Who she thought. She was. Panic about that. I wonder if it's something. Sort of like. Like. Okay. I was in this position. And I didn't. Want. I was too scared to risk coming forward. Because it might mess up my. Situation here. In. You know. My life. In Gilead. But Daisy did it anyway. She didn't care. And. I wonder. Maybe this is a little too complicated. But maybe Agnes still feels that connection. With that part of herself. That's not of Gilead.

[00:54:53] And it's hard to reconcile the two. And maybe she's just sort of like. It's forcing her to confront. That she. Doesn't. Want to take the risks. That Daisy is. Risking. Even though she knows she should. Or something like that. I don't know. I thought it was more about Becca. Yeah. I mean. She knows. Yeah. Consequences. Of this. For Becca. Like Becca's life. Becca's father. Mother. But.

[00:55:23] I mean. Why didn't she tell Becca. She didn't have hold to go forward. Right. She. And that would have put Becca in danger too. Right. Yeah. Well. And I'm not even sure. If it's about Becca being in danger. As much as. It's just all imploding. Yeah. And not to mention. That she's engaged. To some old dude. Yeah. And her wedding's coming up soon. And I think. That's a lot. On one young girl's plate. Yeah. I think that she was kind of crumbling. Under the pressure. Of all the expectations.

[00:55:53] As well as realizing. The consequences. For. What Daisy is doing. And. Because she does love Becca. Becca's her best friend. It's been. You know. The person she's closest to. One of the people that she trusts. And she really doesn't trust many people. And. I'm wondering. If. Agnes. Feels some responsibility. Because she told Daisy. What happened to her. Right.

[00:56:23] That's a good point. She's the one that told her. Yeah. And so. I think she could just be. Crumbling under the weight. Of everything. And knowing her. Part of it. Her role in it. And remember. These girls in Gilead. Are taught to believe. It's their fault. And even if Daisy said. No. It's not your fault. Still. I think Agnes is starting to feel. Responsible for this. And that it is her fault. And all of the things. That are going to happen. Going forward. That happened to Becca. Are because.

[00:56:53] She told Daisy. And that set this whole thing. In motion. Makes sense. Okay. Um. I'm. Just gonna. Tack on to that. Um. Daisy. I. Did. Like the conversation. That Daisy and. And Agnes had. Where they were talking about. Um. Daisy was going to go clean. That night.

[00:57:23] She was on cleaning duty. So she had to go. And Agnes seemed a bit perplexed. Because now she's a green. Or a plum. And Daisy's response to that. Was that. She's an experiment. Meaning. To me. That this isn't something. That happens a lot. That these girls. Will come in from Canada. And get their periods. And be integrated. Into Gilead. This way. That usually. When they come in. It's something much different. And they don't.

[00:57:52] They're not going to get married off. Or anything. Because they're not going to be. Viable. In that way. That maybe. They could be Martha's. Maybe they could be ants even. Right. And I think that's kind of. The other path for them. Is to be. Like some of them. Go on to be ants. And. Few. And far between. Did they become. Wives. And to be in this situation. And so. I don't. You know. Fault Daisy. For looking at herself. Like she's an experiment. Because.

[00:58:22] That's kind of what it is. Like. The ants were excited about it. And I think part of that. Is because. Well we're used to them. Joining us. So she's. An anomaly. In that she gets to do. The options to her. Are going to be more. And I really appreciated. Her conversation with Garth. Even though I think Daisy. Is like any teenager. Impulsive. And I was concerned. About what she would do. Big. I remember in the last episode. I. I thought she might be.

[00:58:52] Really impulsive. I like that she pushed back. At Garth. Because. They send her into Gilead. And I know one of our listeners. Commented in the feedback. That they felt like. She needed more training. To go into Gilead. And I. Agree with that. Daisy's not the type of person. That can just sit by. And watch. People get. Hurt. And. She basically.

[00:59:23] You know. Garth. Tells her that she needs to. Continue to do what they want. Which is to be invisible. To be a sponge. She didn't want to do that anymore. She. Wanted to protect the girls. Because nobody else was going to. You. And again. That comes from. She grew up in Toronto. She never saw this type of thing before. And so. For her. This is polarizing. This is. Terrifying. Polarizing. Upsetting. Distressing.

[00:59:53] To see all of these things happening. And she's grown to really care about these girls. Whether she wanted to or not. She's really grown to care about them. And so. She made that decision. And Garth has been really abrupt with her about things in the past. Telling her. Well no. You have to get something. You got to be. Useful. Before they'll pull you out of here. Again. She's just a teenager. She's not an adult. It's.

[01:00:22] It's not the same thing. Is what we've seen. That kind of makes me. Plants. Think that. Whoever Garth's handler is. Has said the same things to him. You know. Yeah. Very well. Like maybe Garth. You know. At the end of the episode. And I love the actor playing Garth. I think he's really good. He's very. He has a very expressionful face. Like at the end of the episode. You could see like the. The cost. That this is. Costing him.

[01:00:52] All of this. Yeah. I can't imagine. And. Maybe. He's like. At the end of his rope. Yeah. I mean. Date. Like. We admire Daisy. I definitely do. And also. I could. Understand. Garth. Being like. That was really reckless. And now. This woman who was going to be my wife here. Is. Disappeared. Because of what you just did. Yeah. And then. Right. Might be like. Yeah. But. I'm also saving.

[01:01:21] More women from being. Molested. Well. You have to look at it. From his. From his perspective too. He may have come into this. Because we don't know how long he's been in here. Or he's been an agent. Or been involved with Mayday. He could have. When he started his role. Been very. Aggressive. About how he wanted to handle things. And he. They may have had to like. Tamper that down. Because. Well. This isn't. You know.

[01:01:50] Being from Gilead. That you can't behave this way. Even if you are a man. And so. I agree. Wendy. I think he probably was told. Some of these similar things. To kind of get him to. To calm down. Because I think. He probably went into this thinking. He could do a lot more. More quickly. From the inside. Than he's able to do. And that has to be really frustrating. Like it is for Daisy. Yep. So. And I also loved her conversation.

[01:02:19] With Estee. And realizing. And mentioning. In the voiceover. That it's easy to forget. That the answer. Human too. And I still think. There's more to this group of Vance. Than what we've seen. And I want. To know. More about. Them. Estee. Gabbana. Vidala. Like what. What more. Is there. I feel like there's more in there. I mean. Vidala wanted to stay. And talk to Judd. With Lydia. About. The Grove situation. And Lydia wouldn't let her.

[01:02:50] Yeah. I feel like there's this simmering. Story about. The power dynamics. Between the ants. That. Is just. Like I said. Simmering. Maybe it'll come. Come more to the four next season. Or something. Yeah. And I can't decide. If. Lydia is purposely. Keeping Vidala out of it. Because she doesn't like her. Or because she's trying to protect her. Maybe. Because of what happened at the stadium. She. Doesn't want her involved. Because. She feels bad about what happened at the stadium.

[01:03:20] And so she's looking at it as. Not letting her be that. Close to. Where the real dirty work gets done. I'm not sure. More. And I could be wrong. And my last thing about Daisy. Is I love. Love. Love. That. Her mom told her. Her. Power color. Was purple. Because it. Works out just great. Yep. Now she knows why. Okay.

[01:03:50] Um. I just had a. Quick point. Marat Saad. Is the title. It's about the play. The persecution. And assassination. Of Jean Paul Marat. As performed by the inmates. Of the asylum. Of Sheraton. Under the direction. Of the Marquis de Saad. That's the title. Uh. Usually shortened to Marat. Slash Saad. It's a play within a play. Where the inmates. Of this insane asylum. Perform as actors. For the director. Of the asylum. The director's a patriot.

[01:04:19] Supporting the post-revolutionary. Government. Led by Napoleon. But the inmates. Keep throwing out. Subversive lines. Or just saying their own. Personal opinions. So I think it's. Meant to be. A reflection. Of Daisy. Sort of. On the surface. Operating within the rules. Of Gilead. But actually. Undermining them. If you want. To see. Some of that. Brought to life. Watch the movie. Quills. It's Joaquin Phoenix. Uh. Jeffrey Rush. Plays the Marquis de Saad. It's quite.

[01:04:49] A film. It's really good. Um. It's not one. You want to watch. A lot. I've seen it. A couple of times. But. Yeah. It. When I looked into. The name of the episode. And that came up. It just took me back. Now I feel like. I need to watch it again. I remember a lot of it. Kate Winslet's also in it. Um. Oh. And. Uh. I can see his face. But I can't remember his name. So I can't tell you who else. But it's.

[01:05:18] The head of the. Of the asylum. Is. Played by a great actor as well. So. It. It's. It's fantastic. Okay. Let's just go through notes. I think. We can do that. What you got Jason? At one point at the school. We see a line of. Younger. Girls. In pink outfits. And that reminded me of. Hannah. Well. Agnes. When she was Hannah.

[01:05:48] She wore that right. In Handmaid's Tale. Mm-hmm. She did. It's a little note. She did. Um. At the end. Daisy's brushing her teeth so hard that. Her gums start bleeding. And I just think that's because. That's where Grove had his hands. Mm-hmm. She wanted to get that. Out of there. And then. Last. This isn't really related to this. Episode. But it just occurred to me that. I think. The fact that the war. With. Boston. Has been. A big deal. This season.

[01:06:17] Shows that. June's actions. June and her allies. Made an impact. You know. They just want to. Make sure that we know. That. That wasn't all for nothing. It's. It's still a thorn in their side. So that's good. Absolutely. Wendy. The eyes. We haven't seen the eyes look like that before. Have we? Not that I. Yeah. They look. Not like the mentors. Yeah. The faces.

[01:06:46] Oh my gosh. Oh man. It was creepy. They don't seem to float. Like shadows. Oh. Kind of look like ninjas. I thought they looked like ninjas. Oh. So creepy. And I'm wondering like. We've. We've seen lots of people that like. We thought they might be eyes. But maybe we haven't seen the eyes themselves. Before. I don't know. I mean the eyes. Are a nebulous group. They're sort of. Right. Secret police. Security. Spies.

[01:07:16] I think they could be. They could just look like anyone. And you wouldn't know they were an eye. Or when they're doing. I mean it depends on what kind of work. They're doing. You know. That was a great scene though. As horrible as it was. They play. You'll be a woman soon. You'll be a woman. When they're dressing. Daisy. And that. I will only think about Pulp Fiction. For that. Urge Overkill.

[01:07:46] Is the band that did the song. In Pulp Fiction. And that is. The version they use for this. Because. Neil Diamond has a version also. Yeah. And then. As much as I have gotten used to the girls. In their uniforms. It was. Unsettling. To see Daisy as a plum. You know. Yeah. You kind of know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She seemed. Somehow. A little safer. As this sort of side thing. Yeah. Almost invisible. Yep. Yeah. Not anymore.

[01:08:16] Is it. Now. She's going to be under. Different rules now. I feel like it's not. I don't know. This is in the system. Yeah. Yep. And are they going to. Let her go to a home. Or is she going to have to still sleep with the. I don't know. I. I just wonder. I mean. This is what she was afraid of. This is why she didn't. Tell anyone. Yeah. She had her period. She decided to risk it though. I. I just had this feeling. She was going to do that. You're right. Yeah. That's right. We didn't mention it. But you. You said that last time. She's so.

[01:08:46] She's so. She restrains herself sometimes. And you can see herself. You can see that she's visually restraining herself from acting on some things that she wants to act on. And so I had this feeling that she was just going to lose it in some way. Okay. So. My notes. Grove telling Becca. Becca. He never says I didn't touch anyone.

[01:09:14] He always says I didn't lay a finger on that Pearl girl. And the way that he says it. I think. When he says that to Becca at the table. I think that was when she. Reconciled some things in her head that her dad had. Okay. You didn't lay a finger on the Pearl girl, but. You know. You did touch someone else. You can just see it in her face. There's. Mm hmm.

[01:09:41] They always cast actors and actresses who their facial acting is just. As fantastic as the way they. Speak dialogue or react with their body. Like it. It's just. It's an art form. Really. Truly. Um. Also. My last one is. When Lydia is meeting with Judd. And he. Agrees to wait because. Um.

[01:10:09] So that Becca can get married before. Um. He says what a pity. He was such a good dentist. And then it pans to Lydia. And Lydia's face after that. You can tell. She's just. She probably wanted to reach out and slap him across the face. But she. Contained it. Like you can just see in her face. That she was not happy about that comment. And. And just realizing that the. That her girls.

[01:10:38] The ones that she. Like. Takes care of. And. And cares about. That's. What Judd. As a man. Is thinking about. Not about the girls. And what they've been through. But about. Oh the dentist is going to die. Oh yeah. Isn't that a pity. Just the fact that he's just like. Oh yeah. We'll just kill him then. That. That seems appropriate. They didn't spend a lot of unnecessary time. Debating that. Not at all. And so.

[01:11:07] Here are my three questions. For. Whatever comes after this. One. What's going to happen to Becca. Two. Will it even come out what Dr. Grove did. Or will they. Like sweep it under the rug. Hmm. And. Three. What will the girls or anyone do. To try to stop. What may be coming. And so. Maybe.

[01:11:37] We'll get answers to that next week. Maybe we won't. We're going to have. Some more shocks. In the finale. They're saving it all up for the last. That's what I think. I'm still like. Have this. Feeling of dread inside. Hmm. Do you. Do you guys still think we might get a wedding? I have no idea what. It's possible. I think anything's possible. It's so.

[01:12:07] I don't know. I. It might not be. You know. It could be like. Hold this wedding. Right. Yeah. Or. I don't know. Somebody else's. I don't know. I just feel like. We have these girls. who are so connected and will they will they try to do something like i don't know

[01:12:31] i don't know i just i feel like you know becca did something daisy did something like they just are so impulsive and i think last few episodes have really been showing that so what i most hope happens is that hulu announces a second season i don't know how you can after this one

[01:12:52] it's been so good it's been a hit too it has so i feel like yeah it has to all right that's our show

[01:13:19] thanks for listening everyone next time on the podcast the testament season one episode 10 secateurs and that is the finale like season finale of this season if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and i think

[01:13:45] jason talked about on the feedback episode but if you haven't left us a review on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcast please do yeah especially if it's a good one uh you know something bad is going to happen in the finale because i just looked up what secateurs are

[01:14:08] on their hand pruners yikesies oh gosh it's not going to be trimming the hedges don't forget that we'll be doing a book talk right after this with secret book stuff all right that's our show

[01:14:25] thanks for listening what a pity he was such a good dentist that's good so if you don't want to

[01:14:45] listen to any book talk um now's a good time to press stop okay man i the big thing for me to talk about is how in the book becca kills herself right or she tries to yes yes she slits her wrists

[01:15:09] does she succeed she succeeds in slitting them she doesn't kill herself right does she she doesn't die no that's not when she dies that's at the beginning oh yeah oh for her marriage then she becomes an aunt she becomes okay god i'm such a horrible book reader person um anyway so they

[01:15:34] really subverted that instead of inflicting damage to herself she went straight for her father and uh you know i think like i always talk about the walking dead because it's the other series i did where well one of the other ones where there was source material and robert kirkman would like to switch things up sometimes just to keep us guessing and uh i enjoyed that and i think it was a great change

[01:16:01] here too i'd rather see what we saw than see her see what happened in the book yeah yeah but now i feel like anything could happen yeah which is okay you know yeah i mean that's pretty much where we were with the handmaid's tale after season one that's right yeah yeah the differences here we're not really finished with the whole book yet but still it's similar in that you don't know yeah but anything

[01:16:31] could happen yeah yeah it's definitely put it into a very interesting place heading into the finale because you just don't know and i don't feel like we can compare it a lot to the book maybe after this like i'm just whatever happens in the finale we'll see but i think we're getting to a point

[01:17:00] where i'm not sure that we can really compare it to the book much longer i bet you things will come up that'll come back to the book but um especially with lydia you know with her trying to collate all this information and take gilead down that they're just sort of hinting at right now but um another thing i thought about in the book is that we've sort of been wondering how good or bad of a guy

[01:17:24] commander mckenzie is and in the book paula and commander the guy the commander mckenzie equivalent who's commander kyle in the book had been having an affair before tabitha died and later agnes wondered if they murdered tabitha so i wonder if they dropped that or if that's going to be the case

[01:17:48] i think in the interest of keeping commander mckenzie as a character we look at more sympathetically they would not bring that into this especially because paula is such an evil which i mean it could be a twist though but it doesn't seem like that's yeah that's for sure

[01:18:12] maybe it's a facade that he's putting on that he is a caring father but he he seems to be like a genuine person i still would love to know how he ended up with her like it happens seem yeah they don't seem to be i mean somebody probably said you're gonna marry her and he did it because he seems like that guy yeah yeah and she's like oh yeah you're the perfect guy for me because i can get

[01:18:40] you to do whatever i want in a society where women don't really have any power she seems to have power over him in some ways except in public like that's not allowed because when one of the commanders came to the house to sit with agnes that is one of like the little interview

[01:19:02] sections um and paula stepped up and started talking about business mckenzie shut it down right away i forgot about that yeah he didn't want that does not want to be seen so i do wonder you know what honestly maybe they have like a bdsm relationship we've never really seen them together much that might have been the only scene that we have seen them together and you're right he shut her down so

[01:19:29] that's why i don't know if he's really spineless as much as he's just trying to be um just trying to rationalize gilead or something yeah yeah uh i one more thing i'd been wondering if the book kind of skimmed over why daisy even went to gilead as a spy and so i was looking in the wiki just to remind myself and it said daisy learns from garth and elijah that mayday has a source inside gilead

[01:19:58] who's been feeding them information but they don't know who it is we know that's lydia the same source claims to be compiling documents that could bring down gilead however the link to their source was the clothes hound that's the melanie and neil her parents store and now that link is broken the fallback plan is to have nicole to pretend to be converted by missionaries and go to gilead to fetch the documents the source demanded it specifically be nicole or daisy saying she had the best chances

[01:20:27] since she's a national icon does that really make sense i don't know nicole reluctantly agrees to the plan knowing there's no guarantee it isn't a trap so that's the stakes of her going in is to get information all this information that lydia has been collating that could potentially take down gilead which she wants to do because she knows they killed her parents i'm continually shocked that we haven't had more lydia in this season yeah they're saving it

[01:20:54] yeah they decided to focus on i think the girls yeah what's new about this series and fresh you know yeah yeah because they already knew that we'd been exposed to lydia through the handmaid's tale and so coming into this we needed to get to know the other characters but they do sprinkle in lydia at different times to like have that continuity thread going through the whole show and they also i think

[01:21:22] needed to differentiate this show and they did a fantastic job of that yeah it's got a different vibe i mean there's still the brutality yeah i mean they remind us of the brutality at different times yeah i mean it's just enough the same but just enough different that's my opinion yeah i really like it i liked i know that some of our listeners were surprised by this but i really like the book the

[01:21:49] testaments more anyway um but i really like the show i don't know if i like it more than handmaid's tale we'll see it's only been almost a season so yeah we'll see too early to judge this season has definitely been more methodical and slow and i mean that in a good way than

[01:22:15] handmaid's tale right yeah i mean i one of my favorite shows is anything that vince gilligan does like breaking bad better call saul and now pluribus so slow but i can't look away because it's just it's just that things uh things don't happen fast but the things that are happening are are fascinating and yeah well done you know i saw some people criticizing that pluribus was too slow and we

[01:22:41] were just absolutely obsessed with it yeah some people just don't like that type of story yeah yeah that's all i had to talk about i don't think i have anything else yeah bye everybody bye we all need advice but it's not always clear who to ask even in 2026 enter how to the long-standing

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