Severance S2E4 "Woe's Hollow"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. It's to go! Mr. Milchak! What are you doing, man?

[00:00:17] Time to fucking move! What are you doing? I'm gonna kill her, Mr. Milchak!

[00:00:47] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Kara. And I'm Rachel. And this is Wax Episodic. And this episode, we're covering Severance Season 2, Episode 4, Woe's Hollow. Hello. We're pleased to welcome Rachel to the podcast today, who has been granted provisional access to this audio experience. Please enjoy her insights equally. Thank you! Just kidding. Welcome, Rachel! Glad to have you here. So happy to be here.

[00:01:18] Oh my gosh. I think I might enjoy your insights more. It's not allowed. Yeah, we always love your messages. Thank you. They're very fun and insightful. And yeah, I mean, if they're gonna be long, then they better be good. And yours are. So that's cool. I will not stop them. Don't stop. But I want to know if you were...

[00:01:45] Maybe you've already said this, I can't remember, but whether you've always been a Severance fan and how the rewatch has been. I have not always been a fan. I... We... So my husband and I watched it for the first time, I think just over a year ago. Uh, it was the first show that we watched together after our daughter was born. She was in her newborn era, like, kind of colicky. We were...

[00:02:15] Our lives were turned upside down. We had no idea what was going on. But as soon as we could have even 30 minutes at a time to watch a show, this is the show that I think I chose, um, for us to watch. So we binged it as quickly as we could, uh, with having to take baby breaks and stuff like that. But I was immediately obsessed, immediately in love with it from the first episode. Love the weirdness.

[00:02:43] I love not knowing what the hell's going on at any given time, not having any answers. Um, and just Adam Scott. I mean, come on. Uh, so... Absolutely loved it. And totally missed all the hype about it by, like, a month or two. So had absolutely nobody to talk to about it. Uh, and so the rewatch has been fantastic. So much fun. I've absolutely loved listening to you guys and writing in and just...

[00:03:13] I watched, like, each episode two to three times to really dive deep in it. And, ugh. I'm glad... I'm so glad you missed the hype period because now you're here. Because I, I think a lot of people... I remember when season two came out, a lot of the Zed heads were chatting about it a lot online. And where are those guys? Come on. Right in. But they've already gotten it out of their system. So once we get to season three, I think we're going to have a lot more, um, interactions and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:43] But, uh, it's just a cozy little few here now and that's just fine. So that's, that's cool. Was your husband into it? Yes. Yes. Which is, that says a lot because he's not into a lot of shows, but yeah. The fact that he was, and he'll talk about it, which he doesn't talk about shows at all. Uh, so he'll be like, have you seen Severance to any friends or anything? He loves Milchick. Cool.

[00:04:11] I mean, it's, it's kind of a, yeah. Like you said, you don't, you love not knowing what's going on and lost was the same way for me where you're just so, uh, your brain is awake trying to figure everything out where other shows, you don't have to stay that engaged with it, you know? Right. You can like passively. Yeah. Totally. All right. Well, let's get into this week's episode, Severance season two, episode four, Woes Hollow.

[00:04:39] Would you like to read the plot summary, Rachel? Oh, sure. Okay. MDR find themselves in the outside world on a frozen lake. A prerecorded message from Milchick informs them that they are on an outdoor retreat and team building occurrence or Orbo and directs them to find the previously unrevealed fourth appendix to the Lumen handbook written by Keir Egan. By following the directions of strange doppelgangers of themselves.

[00:05:06] Upon taking the appendix to Woes Hollow, a waterfall, they are greeted by Milchick and Miss Huang, who have set up a campsite. Helly is confronted by Irving about her suspicious account for time during the overtime contingency. She retorts by claiming Irving is bitter about Bert's retirement, causing Irving to storm off. Helly and Mark have sex, after which Mark briefly hallucinates Gemma's head on Helly's body. Irving sleeps outside experiencing strange dreams.

[00:05:35] The next morning, Irving again confronts Helly to force her to admit she is a mole. He yells for Milchick and begins drowning Helly in Woes Hollow. She finally relents and orders Milchick to revert her to her innie, revealing her to have been Helena undercover as Helly ever since MDR's return to work. Milchick then fires Irving and reverts him to his Audi. Intense. That's big. Yep. So, Karen, how was it for you to watch this one?

[00:06:01] It wasn't the, we thought it was going to be the, what's her name, Cobell one, but it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't. It was, however, sort of a standalone kind of a one through line episode. I loved it. I loved it. I thought it was weird. It was luminy, which I actually love. I love all the weirdness and the luminous of it all. So, we found out a couple of important things. It was a great Irving episode. Yes.

[00:06:31] It had everything for me. So good. Yeah. I'm glad that they, I mean, I remember this felt like it could be John Turturro's final episode. Will I spoil whether it is or not? I guess I won't, but I'll just say I'm glad they gave John Turturro something to do, you know, like, because it felt like to me he's been really good in all of this, but it's John Turturro and he's not getting as much to do as I wish they were. They would give him.

[00:07:00] So this was a good antidote to that. So I liked it for that. What about you, Rachel? Oh my gosh. I love this episode. I was actually, I was like yelling when you thought it was the Cobal episode. And I'm like, no, no, it's not. Yeah. Because you wanted to do this one in particular, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was considering later episodes and I'm like, no, this is a super fun. This is a good one. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it.

[00:07:27] I liked the change of scenery and that it's just as delightfully weird anyway. You know, it doesn't matter where you set the show. If not weirder. If not weirder. And also beautiful. Like if they can make an office look beautiful, then they can, shouldn't be surprised that they can make this wonderful, like wilderness, snowy wilderness landscape beautiful too. And I'm really glad that on this podcast, we don't have to pretend anymore to not know that Helena is impersonating Heli. I don't know if there was anyone who was like, didn't know that and wasn't listening to

[00:07:57] our spoiler segments, but we, we know. Yes, we do. I would not have meant to keep that secret. Yeah. It was hard. We had to edit a couple of things out where we slipped. I slipped. Rachel, would you like to go first? Sure. I think on that note, we should talk about just the whole setting and look and vibe of the episode to start.

[00:08:23] Um, the like art house, surrealist indie horror films, a vibe of it. Um, which is why I love the episode so much. Uh, it's, it's kind of, uh, freaky and more creepy than usual. And again, like a whole new side of what the hell is going on, uh, that I love.

[00:08:53] Um, even the, I mean, all the visuals. So I have a lot of behind the scenes in Bo from this, the severance podcast that I'll intersperse in. Um, but the fact that they were really, there was no green screen. There was no, uh, this was not a set in any way. They really went to, uh, it's called Minnawaska state park preserve, um, downstate New York.

[00:09:23] Anybody who thinks it's upstate New York is from New York city. Anybody who's from New York state actual knows that it's downstate, but, uh, it's adjacent to the cat, adjacent to the Catskills, uh, west of Poughkeepsie. Um, but just like the harsh, desolate, cold, dangerous, uh, landscape. Um, and for it to be the in ease first time being outside, uh, for Irving to wake up the

[00:09:52] very first scene, he's in the middle of a frozen lake, which he actually was. And Mark was, or Adam Scott was actually up on that cliff. Um, which just begs the question, like, so they brought his, why would you, they bring his Audi to the middle of a frozen lake? So when they get to the office, they have to come in staggered so they don't meet each other. Right. So I presume they told the Audis, okay, we're doing a team building exercise or whatever,

[00:10:22] and it's going to be out here, but you have to, um, show up in different spots when we wake you up. So you don't meet each other, or at least, I don't know if they would be so explicit, but I think that's probably why they weren't all in the same place, but it's kind of funny that they're so far apart and that he's like, Mark's like, yeah, come up the steep side of the cliff and meet me up here. Like, why don't you go down? Where are we? I have no fucking idea. But then also, um, yeah, he's like, I'm on a fucking lake. I'm on a fucking lake.

[00:10:49] I'm on the fucking ice. But it's, yeah, that's what it was. But it's funny, or not funny, but I just saying, you're saying how they're outside and I'm like, yeah, that's gotta be like Dylan was particularly, I knew there wouldn't be a ceiling, but still. And, uh, just thinking about your first exposure in your whole life to the vastness of the outdoors. And it made me think about how only recently, for some reason, have I like been going out

[00:11:16] when I'm out at night, looking up the stars and the vastness of space hits me. I know that sounds kind of stonery, but it's like, wow, those stars are hundreds of thousands of light years away and the space around them is, as far as we know, infinite. And it's just right there in front of me. It, I, suddenly it'll hit me like, holy shit, that's too much. Like, maybe that's why we don't think about it too much. It's so funny that you mentioned that.

[00:11:41] Um, I went to sort of a, a kind of a dark sky area in Oregon a couple of years ago and David and I stayed up late and watched, uh, the stars and it got, it, it was really, really dark and you, we, uh, it was a clear night and I got a little freaked out. I couldn't watch it. I couldn't watch it for a long time. I got a little scared and I was like, all right, that's enough. Cause you think about how, oh, I know it'd be fun to be an astronaut and just be in the vastness of space.

[00:12:10] And you're like, actually, I'm kind of right here. It's just right there. It's right there. We are in the vastness of space right now. Literally. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. But you think it would be a big deal. Yeah. Right. We can't, we can't anyway. Sorry, Rachel. Go on. No, no. Oh my gosh. You're fine. Um, yeah. So just other freaky, unexplainable things, especially the, they're twins. Uh, like, and there's no explanation for that whatsoever.

[00:12:40] We, we don't know what they are. Well, I thought they were like, what are they, uh, in a simulation or are they clones? But when you see them on top of the, uh, uh, waterfall, it's pretty clear that they're just stand-ins. They are. They're lookalikes. Okay. Yeah. They're just dudes dressed up like them. Yeah. But I mean, we don't know where they came from. We don't, we also don't know where the waffle party people come from, but they bring people in. Right.

[00:13:10] They're, um, the, the, the actor who played, uh, fake Mark twin Mark, um, was the same guy who played the, um, hallway guy from, uh, from episode one season two. Do you remember the guy when, um, Mark was booking around and went into, um, wellness and, um, he was around wellness. The creepy guy in the background, the creepy guy in the background, same actor. So maybe it's the same character. No way. Yay. Yeah.

[00:13:40] Right. Yeah. Could be lumen employee. Oh yeah. It's a lumen employee and maybe they were, he was trying to perfect his Mark. Oh yeah. Which is weird. Shedding light on this for me. Did you also notice that, um, that Heli, um, the Heli twin had her head bent both times we saw her. So one time she had her, her head bent, her arm on her hip and she was pointing. So kind of like that.

[00:14:10] And then the next time we see her, her arms are just down and she's on top of the waterfall, all four of them. And her head is bent again. And, um, it's, it's really disconcerting. They don't look human, even though they are played. If you look at the credits, they're played by people, but I think they're made to look animatronic. Dylan guy looked really odd. Really? In particular. Yeah. They all do. They all look really strange, especially with her, with her, um, bent neck.

[00:14:39] I mean, the people in the goat room looked weird too. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Orbo, uh, rearrange, uh, rearrange the letters of Orbo. Um, you get robot. Um, yeah. So, um, uh, some people have been speculating. Maybe that's what they were alluding to. Maybe they're all robots. Maybe we're robots. Okay. What else? Too much, man. Too much. The different podcast.

[00:15:09] Um, oh, and like the appendix four content, uh, just being absolutely off the wall, wild, imaginary, gross, like sexual, violent, like, and by the way, it's the absolute truth too, according to Milton.

[00:15:31] So, uh, and whoa, the absolute creepiness of whoa, the like half size woman bride, uh, Zombie looking. So just totally zombie looking. Um, yes. So all this to say, all these things playing into this weird horror type vibe with the landscape as the backdrop, just an absolutely unbelievable episode of television.

[00:16:02] Yeah. Yeah. That's my first point. I like it. I actually had been thinking of more of the beauty, but now it does seem more creepier when you put, mentioned all those things together in a row. Even if you look at the map that they get, um, and, and the map to, um, whoa's hollow, even the map, um, is in winter. If you look at the map, it has snow and ice all around it.

[00:16:28] Um, so they even drew it so that it would be in winter, which is crazy. It just seems like here. So like the innies just believe that. Yeah. Winter just is all the time. Yeah. Maybe in the world of Lumen. This is what the outside is. It's only winter. Yeah. Yeah. It's freaky. Can we, can we talk about a couple other things, um, uh, rate to build on what you were talking about, Rachel?

[00:16:54] Um, yeah, uh, the weird masturbation parable, the fourth appendix. What the heck was that all about? The fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, Jason, do you have any, any ideas what the masturbation parable could be really about?

[00:17:16] Um, I mean, the thing that's interesting to me about it is it is presented like a myth, you know, like it's this, everything about Keir Egan has to be this sort of grandiose, um, story that you're supposed to take something from. Um, and so I love the way that Heli, who we know is actually Helena just kind of scoffs at it and says, oh, it's just a masturbation thing.

[00:17:46] And at first I thought, oh, she just trying to pretend to be Heli to ingratiate herself with them. But no, I think that shows that Helena is, uh, just as skeptical, if not more of her family than everyone else. And she's like, yeah, they're trying to build this up to be something great, but it's really just, but what, what it actually is, I'm not sure. I mean, at first I, I first watch, I didn't even understand where she got the idea that it could be a masturbation thing.

[00:18:14] But then when you read the part that Irving says, he says, um, once concealed by Flora, my brother unfastened himself, the din of his fervor fell strangely into concert with the music of the wood, which means there's some fervor going on. His every thrust found rhythm with the, with the trill of the crickets and the moaning of the wind and the snow falls yearly thaw. He's making love to nature. I hope someone just skipped right to this part of the podcast. I'm like, what is this about?

[00:18:45] Dieter became on that night an instrument of nature and nature played Dieter with elegance. I had no choice but to listen as he spilt his lineage upon the soil. Yeah, that's pretty clear, right? Yeah, that's pretty clear. Very clear. And then, and then, and, but then I wonder if, um, if Dieter, I mean, if Kier killed him and then made up this story to make it feel like some kind of parable because it says he's

[00:19:14] like melting and then he had to put him in the water to, for some reason, I forget why, but I wonder. No, he doesn't put him in the water. He goes to the water to, so because he knows the waterfall will drown out his brother's screams. Oh, I, okay. I read that wrong. Nevermind. Yeah. Okay. So I, I really, I don't know. Do you guys know what it, what it's about?

[00:19:39] I mean, it's supposedly he, he, um, uh, dictated the, this fourth appendix on his deathbed. So maybe this is the raving of a, um, an old man who's about to die. He's been on ether a lot. Yeah, exactly. And maybe currently on ether. I mean, just the fact that he has a twin makes me wonder if, I don't know if we know how far

[00:20:06] back the idea for the severance procedure went, but I could guess that maybe there were, they're always drawing on things that Keir said and did. So maybe somehow him having had a twin, if this is even true at all, um, is related to them developing the severance procedure, like somehow trying to recapture his other half or something like that. Right. Or maybe there never was a twin.

[00:20:33] Maybe he's just kind of naming somebody. Yeah. I kind of questioned the, the reality of any of this. Like, yeah. I mean, just like when Milchick says, this is where he first battled the four tempers in this cave. And I'm like, well, that's a metaphor, right? It's talking about your psychology and how you're trying to get control of your emotions. Not actually fight people.

[00:21:02] And then, you know, he encounters woe for the first time and it's an actual, an actual externalized woman. And Milchick of course says it's all true. And it just reminds me of devotees just taking, um, myths as literal when maybe they were just sort of, uh, created to illustrate some kind of a point about life or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:21:31] Or Kier killed a woman in a cave. I don't know. What did the dead seal represent? Uh, that the outside is dangerous and gross. And why would you want to be here in ease? It's much safer. Totally fair. Why a seal? Why a seal? Oh my God, I have no idea. Cause it doesn't make sense that it's a seal, right? No. Is that not, it's just a lake, right? It's not like an inlet to the ocean.

[00:22:01] No, it's just a lake. It's very far from the sea. And, and, um, it reminded me of in lost, um, the polar bear. Oh yeah. Why would, why would a polar bear be on the Island? Absolutely. I just love that Irving's like, we have to eat it. And it just to me shows that they don't know anything that it shows how not in control of their lives and their reality. They are that.

[00:22:29] And he even screams it out. Like, we don't know where we are or what's going on. Um, so, uh, and also just that Irving's kind of in a bad place. Yeah. And little does he know that pretty soon he'll be, he'll be treated to luxury meats, four ply bathroom tissue, MDR blue tents and almost marshmallows and marshmallows face on them. All right. Well, we're, we're sort of going all over the place, but let's get back to the points. Do you want to go Karen? Sure.

[00:22:59] Uh, sure. And I want to, um, I, I actually just want to, um, I'm sort of for sort of using this as my, as my, um, point. So I want to sort of build on this and just talk about the last couple of things, which is, um, there were banana pants about this episode, which is one, they, they sleep for the first time. Uh, although Irving had fallen asleep before, but they actually get to have a full, a full night. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. They get to see fire for the first time. Yes.

[00:23:29] You'd think they would, uh, remark about that. Like, oh, we're going to find out what sleep is like, except for those naps I took at the office. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, muscle memory. Um, you know, if Irving can drive a car, they can definitely all sleep. They know how to do that. Um, but fire, you know, Mark even remarks on it like, wow, it's really beautiful. Um, so pretty cool, right? Yeah. You take it for granted. Yeah. All these little details. 100%.

[00:23:57] Um, another little bananas thing is that, um, Miss Huang played, um, the theremin. And the theremin is such a weird instrument. It's so weird. You, you play it by not touching it. It's, it's the, it's the only instrument you don't touch. At least I think it's the only instrument you don't touch. You play it by, um, uh, the electrical field or whatever. You sort of put your hands above it and that's how you play it.

[00:24:25] It's so weird and creepy sounding. So, yeah. Yeah. Theremin's are neat, man. Is that a theremin at the end of, um, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? I think it might be when the chief breaks out. Couldn't, could be. That's a question for Google. Indeed. Indeed. So that was just like the end of, um, of the, um, the freakiness.

[00:24:54] Actually, I probably left a bunch of freaky things out, but, um, oh, the last little thing is that the, um, the VCR, uh, the TV VCR, it reminded me of the in Lost, the, um, the videos from the various hatches and the whole, um, Seth Milchek explaining what the whole, um, outdoor retreat and team building occurrence. This is Mr. Milchek from work. It's so weird. It's so weird. It's so weird.

[00:25:24] So, that's all. Jason. Yeah. It's not a theremin. It's, it says the eerie singing sound at the end of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is similar, but it's produced by Boeing, a standard carpenter's saw creating a gliding tone that mimics a theremin. So, it's a theremin. Oh, interesting. Verwandle deine Leidenschaft mit Shopify in ein Business. Und knack Umsatzrekorde mit dem Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion. Du hast richtig gehört. Der Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion.

[00:25:54] Der legendäre Checkout von Shopify vereinfacht das Shoppen auf deiner Website bis hin zu Social Media und überall dazwischen. Na, das ist Musik für deine Ohren. Wie du es auch drehst und wendest, mit Shopify kannst du zu einem echten Hip werden. Starte deinen Test noch heute für nur einen Euro pro Monat auf Shopify.de slash rekorde. I want to talk a little bit about the environment, which we've already talked about, but just it being a new environment and sort of freshening up the show.

[00:26:23] I love the ice over the lake in the overhead shot with him kind of out, you know, far away from the edge. And there was this really nice moment of sun drifting, sun behind the drifting clouds. The camp is just gorgeous in the middle of this little grove with the fire pit and the grill and the glowing blue tents. I'm like, yeah, man, I'd be stoked to see that.

[00:26:48] Even if I had already, like myself, like I want to go there and have marshmallows, you know? That'd be a great getaway. Even when Milchick, who I loathe, was reading from the fourth appendix at the fire, I thought that was really appealing. I got to say, like, it would be so fun to sit there and listen to him because he's such a great, uh, he has such a great vibe. Uh, and then I think the whole thing is part perk.

[00:27:16] Cause he even said, you know, you guys have expressed interest in going outside or something like that and part team building exercise. That would be my guess anyway. And it made me think of times when we did similar things at Apple. I think it's pretty common at companies to have times, uh, we called them off sites where you go somewhere else just to have my husband's done that. Yeah. And, and put you in a different context, even if you're doing work there, sometimes it's

[00:27:43] still about sort of, uh, breaking the routine and I found it fun to see my office mates in a different setting, get to know them a little better. Sometimes we have drinks and stuff. Um, there was one, when I was, uh, working on the, um, user's guide and on screen help for the iMovie app, the Mac app that where you make movies. And we were supposed to go to this, like one of those little go-kart racetracks and make

[00:28:13] a little movie. And, um, I didn't go and I always regretted that. I wish I would have. Cause then I saw the movies that everyone made it made and it looked like so much fun. Um, and then it was super fun to see how they reacted to all of it. Um, I think we've already kind of talked a lot about that though. So then Milchik makes it more clear with the DVD player that you guys just mentioned.

[00:28:38] Um, first he says it's the Dieter Egan National Forest and, um, Dylan's like, who the fuck is Kier Egan? And he seemed to answer him directly. Yes. Which I thought that could be a coincidence or he could actually be live and just pretending to be a recording. Then he sends them on this quest for the fourth appendix and, um, said it was, uh, what Keir Egan dictated in the final hours of his life.

[00:29:07] And it kind of reminded me of these like secret upper levels of Scientology where you find out about Xenu, the galactic overlord. I don't know. Um, and then he said, and do remember stray not from Keir's path, lest you royal nature's wrath. There will be help along the way. So it was kind of a fun little like quest vibe, although it was not hard at all for them to find it because it just had people pointing to where it was. Yeah. Freaky people. Yeah.

[00:29:38] Although Dylan was still, uh, stressed, like physically stressed and Irving. Well, Irving did kind of like lose it. Like, um, we don't know what the hell this is. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But they didn't have to figure anything out. I, I feel like how long was it Mark before they started feeling okay with it? I mean, if Irving hadn't been there, it would have been a fun trip for the rest of them.

[00:30:08] Um, that's fair, but yeah, I don't blame Irving at all for pretty much anything he did really. That's a whole other point, but, um, right. You know, he's calling out a liar. So I love that Dylan says, um, um, he says first time out fucking side. I mean, I knew there was no ceiling, but this is insane. It's so great.

[00:30:35] It reminds me of, uh, I, I was on Reddit just today in the Apple vision pro, uh, Reddit. That's a VR headset, which I haven't used quite a lot, but there was a guy who just bought one and had never used VR before. And, um, he was like, I've seen, I saw the ads, but it just did not prepare me for what it was actually like. And that's true of VR too. If you've never tried it, you can't really get a idea of what it's like until you actually try it. It's such a trip.

[00:31:05] But anyway, that's kind of what Dylan reminded me of. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's, that's about it for the environmental stuff. What else do you want to talk about Rachel? Um, let's see. Should we move into Irving? Yeah. Yeah. And okay, cool. Um, yeah. So basically I feel like he's reached his breaking point.

[00:31:31] Um, he's been living in this sort of his own reality where he lost the love of his life. It well, didn't lose him. He was taken from him. Um, and so his reality as he knew it kind of shattered. And after his Audi experience during the OTC, um, he's just realizing more and more that

[00:32:00] Lumen is not what he thought it was, which I just love his arc because at the beginning of the series, he's sort of the least likable character because he's so by the book. He's kind of a goody two shoes, like, you know, nose handbook backwards and forwards. And are you doing this right, Mark? Um, all of that. But, um, and now at this point, it's such a reversal because he's doesn't trust anything out of that Mountabank's mouth, even telegically.

[00:32:29] Um, I looked up Mountabank, but I don't know where it is in my notes, but. A boastful, a boastful unscrupulous charlatan or trickster who uses fast talking scams or false pretenses to deceive people. They have such impressive vocabulary on this show. They really do. I always wonder, like, how do the innies have such a vast vocabulary? Yeah. Uh, so. Yeah, because he was a devotee, right?

[00:32:59] Of the Eagans and everything. And he just feels like that is his whole purpose was bullshit. And as you said, his lover got taken away from him. And so he's fucking pissed and he's prickly as hell. And I don't blame him. Yeah. Prickly as hell. I love that. Yeah. He, after he saw too, that his Audi was investigating Lumen. Uh, so he knows that his Audi also doesn't trust Lumen.

[00:33:27] Um, he just like loses all sort of the rose colored glasses are taken off and he sees Lumen for what they are better than any of the other members of MDR. Um, and it's kind of like he's been living in this world where he understands this, that

[00:33:51] that Lumen is kind of the enemy and everyone's kind of gaslighting him or like knows that like, oh yeah, like we're mad at them too, but they're kind of more casual about it. Yeah. And you would think actually that Dylan would be as suspicious or at least suspicious of helly too. And I think they kind of softened him up a little bit just to have Irving be the one that stands out, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:34:20] So, but I mean, like, I think deep down he actually, I wouldn't be surprised if in his head he's saying, I think she's an Egan, uh, but he doesn't want to say it out loud. You know, I think he actually consciously suspects that. And if so, then, um, she, everything you're talking about is relevant to that because she sort of represents what he hates as an Egan. Right. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah. She's part of the problem. Yeah.

[00:34:49] Like she is, she is the definition of the problem really. If he, if he knows or believes her to be an Egan, um, and so he's losing it. He's, uh, kind of, we, so yeah, the, we should eat it makes him sound a little crazy. So like me as a viewer, I'm thinking, um, are we really trusting his instincts right now? Cause that was a little off the mark.

[00:35:17] Uh, so I kind of like how the episode did that, where it wasn't fully Irving's onto the right path here. Yeah. Definitely trust everything he says. We kind of had to go back and forth and decipher on our own. Because I think the way this episode plays out, uh, for, I don't know what percentage of people were already suspecting that Helly was Helena. I was, but I know that some listeners have written in saying they weren't.

[00:35:46] And I think the way the episode plays out, it, it, it could be that Helly just didn't want to say the truth about what she saw when she went on the outside because she was ashamed of being Helena Egan. I think the, and then it sounds like Irving is just being, um, too extreme about it all. Right. Right.

[00:36:10] You know what I'm trying to say that, that, um, yeah, that Helly is still. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's where I was. That's where you were. I think Ryan and I both were kind of questioning like, wait, cause at first I think we didn't know right away that she was Helena. Like I at least was believing she just wasn't telling the truth because she didn't want to admit to everybody that she's an Egan. Um, so yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

[00:36:40] Um, yeah, I should have asked you that actually. I don't know why I didn't like, I should have said, what did you think? Yeah. I wish I remembered specific, like by this time did I understand that she was Helena? Uh, I don't know. I don't remember. Yeah. We went through that too. Yeah. We're like, did we know? Did we not know? When did we know? Yeah. It's hard, hard to remember. Totally. Yeah. So he's, uh, anyway, Irving's losing it. What did you tell him dumb ass?

[00:37:10] Like kind of yelling at Dylan and, um, just pushing hell. I think, I think at this point he just feels like he's done. There's nothing left to lose. He's sick of playing along. He's sick of the bullshit. And he just wants answers. Whatever the cost. Um, so he just keeps pushing and pushing and pushing. Bringing up that night gardener. The night gardener. What was he wearing? Yeah.

[00:37:40] And there were some other ways that he got a sense that it was her too. Um, I think, I think he, after, after she said the night gardener and sees in episode one, he was looking for tells. And there were a couple of moments that she let the mask slip a little bit. For sure. Well, also just trying to ingratiate herself to him. Like you were saying, Karen, last episode, touching him. And she does the same thing here when she comes into his tent.

[00:38:07] That's the same impulse to just try to be like, can't you just like me so you'll forget about being suspicious? Yeah. The snow seal. Okay. Since we're on it, the freaking snow seal, that scene really sticks out to me because it's not, I just feel like Helly is so off the mark. She is, she's like trying too hard and is off the mark. That's not a really a funny thing. He was freaking out.

[00:38:36] Like Helly actual would have come in and been like, are you okay? Yeah. What's going on? Like, let's talk. I want to make sure you're okay. Like, but she comes in teasing him with this damn snow seal. That's creepy as hell. Um, kind of just mocking him and he's like sheepish and kind of like, oh yeah, I guess, you know, that's probably seemed irrational. Um, the, did you guys notice?

[00:39:03] So he shifts gears to press her again. What did you really see? And she's like, I told you. And there's long pauses and she's like Irving. And then the look on her face. Contempt. I would say. So drastically. Yeah. Yeah. That's Helena Egan being like, Hey, I'm not used to being questioned. Shut the hell up. Right. I'm an Egan. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[00:39:29] This, like this, the, the fake sort of patronizing cut, like her playing kind look on her face, just like shifts to pure sinister. Like don't fuck with, I'm sick of being fucked with in this way. Yeah. Uh, I screamed at my TV issues. Gosh, Brilla is so good. Yep. Yeah. That's actually what, from what I understand, closer to her real personality. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:40:00] At least she's a great actor. That's true. Did you ever, so just side note, this reminds me of, I don't know if you've ever seen this clip of Michael C. Hall on a late night show where, uh, the host says like, okay. Play like, let your face be the kind friendly neighbor next door. And he makes his face kind friendly neighbor next door. And then the host is like, okay, now neighbor next door that has a body hidden in his attic and his face shifts.

[00:40:30] He would be really good at that. Oh, it's the exact same type of thing where it's just like, how do they do that? It's amazing. I love him. By the way, he's great. Me too. Yeah. And then what about, so around the fire? Yes. So around the fire, again, uh, it's like, everything's cool. Everyone's chill. Helly is laughing, which again is just off the mark.

[00:40:59] Like she's like you guys, you said earlier, she kind of slips into Helena kind of laughing at the absurdity of this, that Milchick is saying is absolute truth. And she's like, what are you talking about? This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. Um, and the shit kind of hits the fan and you got to wonder too, what Milchick is, what's going on in his head there? Because he's like, right. What is Helena doing?

[00:41:25] I think he knows it's her, but he's still offended and he won't let him have marshmallows, which, uh, they're for team players. Jason. Yeah. So Miss Wong, the marshmallows. Yeah. Uh, Dylan's like, what the fuck? Uh, they don't just hand them out. They look so good. I love those big, like artists and marshmallows.

[00:41:51] And I love that when they, when they, uh, zoomed in on the marshmallow that was burning in the fire, it went from Keir's face to looking more like a skull. I don't know if you noticed that it looked crazy. Yeah. It morphed. It was crazy looking. Wow. Um, I did not notice that. Now I want to go back and watch again. Um, yeah. So Irving, he's kind of slips into old Irving where he's like, Mr. Milchick, is that true?

[00:42:20] And Milchick is like, yep, absolutely. Every word. Uh, but Hellie starts laughing and it sort of breaks him out of whatever kind of spell he was under by Milchick. Uh, and everything hits the, shit hits the fan and, um, Irving just starts pressing again. He's like kind of wasting no time. He's over it. Come on, Hellie. Tell us about the night gardener.

[00:42:49] What color was his shirt? Was he wearing a vest? And then he starts in on Mark. Yeah. Uh, so he's just kind of, it seems like he's after everybody. Well, he's mad at them for siding with her. Like he's disgusted with Mark for being all goo goo with her, using your pupils to make love to her while your Audi's wife rots away somewhere. And then he's like, it's three against one.

[00:43:14] And, um, then I loved what Hellie said or Helena. It's okay. We all know Irving's upset because he can't ever see Bert again. And he's really lonely, which is everybody knows deliberately mean. And then there was such tension when they just were staring at each other and neither one would look away. Yeah. Storms off. Storms off. She's. I don't.

[00:43:42] Whatever they're trying to do with her. I don't know. She's just pushing him in kind of the wrong direction and making him just more solidified. Yeah. I just think she can't help, help herself because she is who she is and she's not used to having to, um, uh, be lower status. Yes. Yeah. Mm hmm. Karen.

[00:44:10] Well, let's talk about the stuff later with Irving. I think we can, we can skip to that. So, um, so later while everybody else is sleeping, Irving goes to take a walk, maybe in the forest and then kind of, it looks like he kind of gets lost. So he ends up having to hunker down. Fortunately, he's got a good hat and a good jacket.

[00:44:38] And so, um, he's okay. He almost froze to death. He said. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right. Right. Yeah. Although it didn't look like he almost froze to death. But, um, yes, he was able to sleep and he has this freaky dream sequence, which is kind of crazy. So the dream sequence looks a little bit like he's underwater. The way that it's filmed, it's really spooky.

[00:45:05] Um, and, uh, maybe hearkens, um, to the, uh, moment where he's holding, eventually holding Helly underwater or Helena underwater rather. Anyway, so he's in the, he's in the dream sequence and he goes, um, walks towards, it looks like the desks in the office and sits down at the desk.

[00:45:28] And, uh, Bert is at one computer, puts the partition down and, uh, Irving looks happy, like there's his love. Then he sees that the, uh, that, whoa, is, uh, creepily, uh, working on the computer right next to him. And he looks then to on his screen and his screen has changed. And now the numbers are just one, four, five, and seven, which is interesting.

[00:45:55] And the numbers kind of swirl and they show maybe an eye and maybe a face. And then, um, you can see some letters that spell out Egan and, um, he's kind of horrified. And then the bride sort of does sort of a jump scare and, uh, he wakes up. And I think that dream has just told him Helena is an Egan.

[00:46:22] So I think he, the dreams kind of confirming it for him. I didn't catch that. But what I was thinking is like, okay, so he's seeing Bert and then he's seeing whoa, which makes sense because the whole thing makes him sad. And he's looking at what they do all day, which is to, um, refine these numbers.

[00:46:40] And I'm sure this must've hit me before, but for some reason, just putting one of the tempers right there next to the numbers made me feel like, oh yeah, we know that there's, does each like batch of numbers correspond to one of the tempers? Right. Whoa, frolic, whatever the other two are. And so it's almost like when they're doing their job, refining these numbers, they're doing some kind of a version of taming the four tempers. Maybe. I don't know if that plays into everything.

[00:47:10] I've had that same thought. Yeah. But, but yeah, I think more importantly, what you just said, Karen, that sort of confirms to him that she's, cause, uh, then he goes, right. Right. He's like, I've got a new sense of purpose to go and confront her. And he walks to the waterfall, finds the waterfall. Hell, he is there looking at the, the largest waterfall in the world. By the way. It's almost on the planet. Why does Miltric have to lie all the time?

[00:47:39] Even when he doesn't need to lie. Just wanted to make it seem like, look how wonderful I am bringing you to this, the most majestic place ever. It's crazy. Crazy. And he confronts Hellie and he says, um, Hellie R was never cruel. And, um, and she, um, kind of drops her mask and that kind of confirms it. And so he drags her down to the water.

[00:48:08] She yells, he yells, uh, Mr. Miltic. I love it in the most passionate moments. They don't know Miltic's first name. So they still say like when, um, was in the office, fuck you, Mr. Miltic. Right. Now he's like, Mr. Miltic. Turn her back. She's an outie. I'm going to kill her. Mr. Miltic. She's a fucking mole. Right. Right. So amazing. That was a great scene. Mark and Dylan are horrified.

[00:48:38] They're all up there above the waterfall. And, um, and then, uh, finally she's, uh, out of the water long enough to say, God damn it, Seth, do it. Remove the Glasgow block now. Oh, so, um, Irving says, yes, Seth, do it. And I love how he says, yes, Seth, do it. You could tell he's so unafraid. He's so afraid. Because he already was ready to end his life anyway.

[00:49:08] Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So he's got nothing to lose. Yep. My favorite delivery of any line ever that anyone's ever done is she's a fucking mole. I know. So good. So good. And then when they turn her back, Irving can tell right away. Immediately. Yeah. Immediately. I'm sorry. Immediately. And he's so sweet telling her he's so, so, so sorry. Um, but can you imagine from her perspective?

[00:49:37] She, so in one, uh, in one moment, she's speaking out against severance and Illumina at the event. Right. And she's tackled and she blacks out. She wakes up and she's, and she's being drowned. It's like, oh, I don't think the plan worked. Poor, poor Allie, man. This doesn't seem right. Oh, it's freezing cold. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:50:04] So I love also right after that, um, how he tells her he's sorry. And Dylan shouts from the top of the waterfall, Irv, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have listened. And Irv shouts back. It's okay. It's all okay. Just remember, hang in there, which is a shout out to the motivational poster, um, in the break room from episode one of Dylan holding the switches. Hang in there. That's so funny. Yeah. But also it feels like a goodbye. Yes, it does.

[00:50:34] It does. And Dylan's screaming, leave him alone. And he's so brave. Um, Irving is so brave and confronts Seth Milchak nose to nose. And at, at the very end, he looks, he looks happy and at peace and he looks ready to confront the, the death of, you know, his, of his innie. And, um, yeah, anyway, John, John Turturro, man, he's fantastic. Oh my God.

[00:51:04] The way his face changes as he's walking away from like satisfaction to like a hint of sadness and this relief. And then at the end, like you said, happiness and acceptance, peace. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was genius. Yeah. Yeah. And Milchak just never fails to piss me off. He's totally haughty with him. You are no longer authorized to consort with any severed employee, nor they with you. I'm like, fuck you, man.

[00:51:32] You think, you think you're in the right here. Your workspace will be cleared and any personal items discarded. Your file, including any and all professional interactions and personal relations will be purged and destroyed. He's really just rubbing it in. It will be as if you Irving B never existed or drew a single breath upon this earth. Make his mercy follow you in the eternal dark. And I'm just like, he doesn't know he's the bad guy somehow. As if Irving insisting on asserting the truth of the situation is somehow a bad thing.

[00:52:02] Well, he's in the wrong for calling them out. Yeah. According to, according to Milchak, you have threatened collegial murder in the pond of Woe's Hollow. For this, there can be no penalty but immediate and permanent dismissal. There shall be no formal addiction catered or otherwise. Your Audi will be notified forthwith. Basically, you won't get a goodbye party. No retirement party. Yeah.

[00:52:31] As he's ending this guy's existence. Ha ha ha ha. Right. Killing him. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I also thought, what is to keep Milchak from just turning Helly right back into Helena? And then I'm like, well, but now everybody knows. Mark knows and Dylan knows. So that's really what Irving accomplished here. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:57] And, I mean, this show has this habit of giving us these endings where you're like, oh, wow, everything just changed. How are they going to react to that? You know? Great cliffhanger. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you want to know what, especially Mark, who just slept with her, is going to think, knowing what he actually did. Yes. Yeah. Oops. Whoops. He's like, wait, what? Yeah, that should have been the last line. Oops.

[00:53:27] Babe, I didn't know. I didn't know it was your twin sister. All this trick in the book. Well, speaking of that, do you mind if I go on to those two? Yeah. Yeah? Go for it. Okay. So Mark and Helena, who he thinks is Helly, get close and end up having sex in her tent.

[00:53:52] And it was really, like, if you thought it was Helly, it was such a sweet. This scene is so interesting because it works whether you think it's Helly or Helena. Because she's saying, you know, I didn't like who I was on the outside. I was ashamed. If that's Helly, then she's sort of saying, yeah, Irving's right. I wasn't honest.

[00:54:21] But it was because I didn't like that I turned out to be Helena Egan. So I didn't want to talk about it. But it's Helena saying it. And I think it's still true. I don't like who I am on the outside. And he says, you know, I don't care who you are out there. I just care who you are with me. And I think she loves that. I think she is feeling ashamed of being an Egan and who she is. And she likes how she feels with Mark, you know? Right.

[00:54:50] But I think it's totally fucked up of her to do that. I don't blame Mark at all for any Mark for sleeping with someone who's not outing Mark's wife. Because in my view, those are two different people. They share a body, but they're two different people. Maybe there's some ethical concerns about doing something with a body that you share with somebody else. But just as far as whether it's like cheating on his wife, I don't see it that way at all.

[00:55:20] What do you guys think? An ethical question for sure. I'm going to say that I have an opinion. Yeah, I do. Okay. I'm going to say that if I'm getting severed and I'm my Audi and I'm getting severed, then I expect that my innie is not going to be having sex when my innie is at work. I'm going to expect my innie is simply working.

[00:55:51] I myself have never had sex with a coworker at work. So I would expect that my innie would not be having sex either at work. So I would say if I was my Audi, I would be kind of pissed if my innie was getting it on. But I think I've established also that I think my innie is its own person, their own person, her own person.

[00:56:18] So yeah, my innie can do whatever she wants, honestly. But as an Audi, I would expect different things. Yeah. I mean, the way you started that is from the point of view of someone who's going into the whole severance thing and thinks it's legitimate. But you don't actually think that, Karen, right? Well, yeah. As yourself, what do you? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:42] Now that I think about it as just like, you know, I've created a new person because that's what you're doing. You're actually creating a new person. And so my thought now with having created a new person is that person gets to do whatever she wants. And if she wants to have sex at work, more power to her. More power to her. Whatever. Good for her.

[00:57:07] But what about if David was severed and innie David slept with someone else? That's his. Just to make it more interesting. You know what? If his innie is getting it on, more power to him. But I have to say, I have to say, I'm worried about pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. It's just. I would say. Just let's avoid this whole thing by not cutting your brain in half. But what about you, Rachel? What do you think?

[00:57:38] Basically the same as Karen, I think. Like, but see, the issue comes with like the ethics. The question lies with Lumen, not with what the innie is doing. So yeah, sure. If my innie falls in love at work and is having sex at work, like, cool, I guess.

[00:57:58] But also, it's not even just the possibility of falling in love at work and having sex with someone that they're in a relationship with or whatever. It's like, oh no, like we actually, Lumen sets up your innie to have sex if they do well enough at their job.

[00:58:18] So I feel like there should be kind of a waiver that's signed or like, because how many of the innie are actually thinking that they're innie is even going to be able to have sex at work? Why would that even be a thing? And also, it's also a really good possibility because it's a reward for doing a great job. So ethically, personally, I'm like, it's fine. Ethically, in terms of the show, what the fuck, Lumen? Right. It's really, really messed up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:48] Do you tell the Audis that they might be having sex? Lumen lies about how they got injured. Oh, yeah. What actually, I mean, that they're being tortured. Yeah. So everything they're doing is a lie. But I was more interested, not in terms of the whole structure that Lumens are, even that it's a work thing, but just if you've had this severance procedure. I agree. I think it's creating two different people. So they shouldn't, like, any Mark doesn't even know Gemma.

[00:59:17] And then as far as Helena, that's where I think it's messed up because she's pretending to be someone else. Yes. Yes. And it is, like, it is, in my view, exactly like if you were a twin and you went to your twin's husband and slept with him. Yeah. That's messed up. Yeah. Yeah. She's basically catfishing him in person. Yes.

[00:59:43] I am this person that you think I am, but not really. And I'm lying to your face. I was trying to kind of, like, categorize, like, in my head, how do I categorize this? Is it, like, it's not violent, but it's some kind of abuse and manipulation. And I'm like, oh, she's catfishing him. That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, does, do you think, does it count that he loses his virginity? I mean, kind of, right?

[01:00:14] Emotionally. But he does, he does have muscle memory. Right? Yeah, yeah. I guess. I guess. By the way, the best Reddit comment, the best Reddit comment I read was somebody who said, that was fucking intense. Which is great. It was fucking intense. Okay. That's all I had about those two.

[01:00:43] Rachel, do you have any more points? Oh, boy. Let's see here. I had a point. Because we've been talking about how full of shit women is. Mm-hmm. I just had a point about the overall theme of the episode being, it turns into kind of this good versus evil, good triumphing over evil with a cost.

[01:01:11] And the more I thought about it, at first I was thinking just how this whole Ortbo is, probably even the premise is fake. Everything that Milchik says is a complete and total lie. Lumen will always protect and provide. You stand upon sacred Earth. We're having copious luxury meats. What, like hamburgers and hot dogs?

[01:01:56] Mm-hmm. Everything they say, everything they present to innies, everything. I mean, the meetings with the Audis. It's just everything they do is for some purpose that the Audis and the innies know nothing about, actually. And how Irving is the representation of good in this episode.

[01:02:22] And he's leading MDR in this charge and representing the fight against the man, kind of. Mm-hmm. But Lumen being the evil, Irving being the good. This is a battle. Like, this is not the war, but this is a battle. And he pushes and he pushes and he pushes.

[01:02:46] And, you know, Heli's there as sort of, I agree with David Karen that you said last week that he said that her purpose as a mole is more than that. It's just like manipulative and sort of steering Mark, especially, but MDR. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:36] Mm-hmm. And he was thinking that they were doing that and that he'd be better off slash woman would be better off for it. But what it really did was sort of make him this awakened, more self-aware, self-actualized being who understands what's going on better. They're distracting Mark with Helena.

[01:04:05] And he's too infatuated with her to care about kind of anything else right now. Like, even going to look for Gemma, it was kind of like they were on this little date going to look for Gemma. And then there's Dylan, who, like, I've already mentioned, but he's, you know, he's mad, but he's falling for their distractions. So it's like, oh, but, oh, yeah, we know that you're mad, but, like, you know, now you're going to be able to meet your wife.

[01:04:31] And so even if he knows, even if Dylan knows that Lumen is evil and they're supposed to be fighting the man, he's like, well, but I actually care more about knowing my family. So I'm going to put that on the back burner.

[01:04:50] So I just saw this whole episode as kind of Irving being martyred for the good of the innies, all of the innies and MDR and Mark fighting the man, coming out on top, persisting and being victorious. And, yeah, they can kill him, but do they kill him? Because his spirit lives on. Dylan and Mark and Helly all know the truth now. And their eyes have been opened.

[01:05:19] And really, Irving got what he wanted anyway because he wanted out. Well, what do you think the purpose of the whole Orpo was from the perspective of Lumen? I think it was a way to placate them a little bit because they all are curious about the outside and they've made this big show of telling them it's been five months and we've made all these drastic changes and we care about your well-being more than anything.

[01:05:47] And you guys are the heroes in this story. So this is something that we are giving you as a gift. Do you think part of it was to throw them off the trail of trying to find Gemma? Oh, probably. Yeah. And there was this quote from Ms. Cobell, something like the best way to tame a slave is to make them believe that they're free. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is part of it, too.

[01:06:16] It's like make them feel like they have more control in this situation than they actually do. Yeah. Throw them off the scent of Gemma. Let's distract them. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:34] And also, let's take them to this beautiful yet frigid, dangerous hellscape to show them that the outside isn't everything they think is cracked up to be. Do you think that Mark seeing Gemma was indeed an indication that he had been successfully reintegrated? Yeah. I think that's part of what it is. Yeah. Or I do.

[01:07:04] Yeah. I think that's his reintegration. Because I wondered about the timing of this, right? Because last time we saw Audi Mark, it looked like he was integrated. But Audi Mark would have had to go out to the wilderness and agree to be changed there. So I wonder if it's more of a process that takes some time to fully set in or what.

[01:07:28] And maybe, you know, because most of the time we saw any Mark in this episode, he seemed like his old normal self until that flash of Gemma. So maybe it's sort of kicking in little by little or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think I remember being confused by that the first time around, being like, wait, I thought he was reintegrated. Yeah. And then if he does integrate, then my opinion about whether sleeping with someone else changes. Ooh. Right. Totally.

[01:07:58] Yeah. But everything that you guys have been talking about, it just reminds me how this series, I think, is a lot of commentary about corporations and corporate culture. And, you know, I mean, it's, you think of, if you look at it from a certain point of view, corporations as evil, they're just sort of this monolith that springs up when somebody starts a business. They want to make money. They want to provide a service or a product. So they need to get the people to do the work to make it happen.

[01:08:28] And that's not inherently evil, if you believe at all in capitalism. But it does. Like I said, there's that documentary where corporations are sort of mapped onto a human personality. And they're, they map onto psychotics because they're about growth at the expense of everything else, you know, whether it's harmful or not. And, and then to get the people to perform, you have to motivate them.

[01:08:56] And so there's all these ways of like, you know, we've talked about throughout all this podcast, podcast perks and benefits and they little parties and things. And it's them trying to put on a human face, but really it's a carrot, you know, it's just, how do we get these people to keep working?

[01:09:19] And sometimes it's so blunt and not at all thought out that it's insulting. Like the time that my boss gave me this little plaque that had all these award things to be filled in. And one of them was just for doing the work that I already did.

[01:09:40] And then there were like nine more spaces and I'm like, I don't want this, you know, but other times it's like a nice thing, you know, and I know they're just doing it to motivate you, but it's like, yeah, give me the, give me the perks. That's great. Give me the finger trap. Or, you know, it's like a bonus or I don't know. Some of these, um, off sites were pretty fun or whatever else, a little office parties.

[01:10:06] We'd have, we'd have the, what do you call it? Uh, beer bashes every Friday at Apple, you know, they were fun and it did make work life better. Even though I know the only reason they're doing it is to try to keep us placated. God damn it worked. Yeah.

[01:10:29] So anyway, it's, I always wondered watching this show, is there some other, I think it's about a lot of different things, but I do think that is a big one. Just purely a commentary on corporations and corporate culture. Yep. Agreed. Agreed. So that's all I had. Did you guys have any more major points or should we move on to notes? Notes. Notes. Okay. What do you got, Rachel?

[01:10:56] Um, I will do some behind the scenes stuff from the sovereigns podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott, uh, which for this episode, they also interviewed, um, Teddy Shapiro. The, uh, freaking, the guy who does music. Thank you. Yeah. That's nice. Uh, so really interesting listen for anybody who cares.

[01:11:24] Um, but the behind the scenes stuff was really cool. So. Well, what do you, is there one thing that stands out that he said? Um, oh gosh. So, well, first of all, Sarah Bach actually learned how to play the theremin. Uh, oh, cool. Yeah. So she's not playing it in the scene, but she wanted, she didn't want it to look like she was bullshitting it. So she literally learned how to play it so that, uh, it looks like she's really playing it because she can. I mean, what's her name? Sarah Bach.

[01:11:54] She plays Miss Huang. Yes. She sort of is a version of Miss Huang. She's a child with a job. So meta. Yeah. She's committed. I mean, how old, how old is she? She, I think she was 16 when this was filmed. She's 19 now. Yeah. Well, that's, that's at least it. She's not a child. Right. Not. Yeah.

[01:12:22] She's not 13, but there are child actors. Yeah. Um, Eddie Shapiro also was talking about, uh, so the four chords of the main theme were just one section of one larger theme of music that he sent Ben Stiller, uh, as a potential theme song or theme music for the show.

[01:12:50] Uh, but Ben Stiller got so stuck on those four chords that they actually became the theme song. That's cool. That'll happen. Can you hum them? Can anybody? You know that, um, I don't. You know, the thing that happens at the beginning of every podcast episode, the, ah, that thing. Yeah. Yeah. I just made that as a test and sent it to my friend.

[01:13:19] Like, can you make a real version of this? And he goes, just use that. That's fine. And I'm like, okay. Oh my God. Um, also Ben Stiller's favorite chord of the entire show is in the very last part of the sex scene between Mark and Helly, uh, in the wide shot with like the sort of heater in the background and there, um, someone's on top of someone else.

[01:13:48] Uh, so I didn't listen to it, but if anyone wants to know what Ben Stiller's favorite chord is, go back and just watch that. Fascinating. Yeah. Um, okay. Teddy. I don't, what else do I have? Something might come to me, but I'm going to go with location stuff now, which is that they spent five weeks filming this episode.

[01:14:09] Um, they had to move everything up to the Catskills, uh, for five weeks. Wow. Um, every single thing was filmed on location except that shot of Helly being drowned, like from below the shot of Bill Lauer's face underwater. That's the only thing that was shot on, uh, like a soundstage or in a tank somewhere. Totally makes sense. Yeah.

[01:14:40] Everything else was in the actual forest. So they filmed in March of 2023 and, um, they like weather is not guaranteed, but something like a few days before they were supposed to start shooting, there was a snowstorm. So it set up the scenes perfectly for them.

[01:15:02] Um, the section of, uh, in Irving's dream where it's like a burned out part of the forest that was real. That's not CGI or anything. That was really burned out. All the fog is real. They actually brought the cubicle up onto the mountain. Um, wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's neat. Totally crazy. Scissors cave. Scissors cave was like a 30 to 45 minute hike for them. So they had to, there was no other way to get there. There's no roads or anything.

[01:15:32] So not only the actors, but like the cameramen, everybody had to lug everything. Yeah. Uh, to the scissor cave location. It was just amazing to me that they didn't sacrifice anything. It was all, it was all real. Everything you see in terms of weather, snow, them hiking on the edge of the cliff, being on the lake, all of it was. Oh, that's super cool. Yeah.

[01:16:00] I would, and maybe, you know, whether this is right, but I would imagine that they still sort of dressed it up with some CG afterwards to make it look cooler. Or even. They did not. They were very, like, insistent and persistent about the fact that it was not, it was all real. So maybe they just did not include that. Yeah. And because like, I don't think Christopher Walken was actually there. So obviously there was some stuff that was put in afterwards, but yeah.

[01:16:29] Like all the fog in that scene, everything. Because they were supposed to shoot. So the Irving dream sequence, it was supposed to be the shot of all four of them walking on the cliff with like the lake and the vista in the background. Yeah. But because it was foggy, they were like, oh wait, we can't shoot that scene right now. So let's shoot the Irving dream sequence. And, oh, and the seal, the dead seal scene, it actually started snowing. So that's not CGI.

[01:16:58] It snowed, Benzler said it snowed for three hours and that's how long it took them to do the scene. So that's all real snow. Wow. That's super cool. Oh, I forgot to say too, I don't like Milchik, but I really loved his outfit. Yeah, he looked great. So good. And it was super cool that he was in, that he was all in white. They were in black, but he was in white. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. And just how Russian it looked or, you know, and cool with his style, but all furry.

[01:17:28] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Any other notes? Not from me. Karen? Yeah, I just have one. And that is the Glasgow block. So we saw the Glasgow block briefly, briefly, briefly last season when they broke into the security office and they had a list of all the different things they could do. And the Glasgow block was one of them.

[01:17:57] And now we know the Glasgow block is the thing that switches the chip in their brains. But what's interesting is there's something called the Glasgow coma scale. Have you ever heard of this? No. I actually only heard about it because I was watching this really cool show that I enjoy that is from Great Britain. And I love the pit. And I was like, I wish there was some sort of reality show that was about emergency rooms.

[01:18:27] And voila, there is. And it's almost like watching the Great British Baking Show, but in an emergency room. Oh my God. It's awesome. Sounds terrifying. It's awesome. It's on Amazon and it's called like 24 hours in A&E. And that's, I can't, it's like ambulance and emergency or something like that. So it's like whoever can heal this person, these people better.

[01:18:55] Well, with this cake platter. Yeah, it's awesome. And so they mentioned what's so-and-so on the Glasgow coma scale on the GCS. And I was like, what? How is that related to a Glasgow block? Well, the Glasgow coma scale is a standardized, I'm reading this, 15 point neurological tool used to objectively measure a person's level of consciousness, particularly after a brain

[01:19:24] injury or in acute trauma. It scores three levels of behaviors, best eye opening, one to four, verbal response, one to five, and motor response, one to six. Scores range from three, deep coma, to 15, fully awake. So I wonder if that's how they got the Glasgow block. Yeah, that's interesting. Block sounds to me like, yeah, it's blocking the other personality from coming forward. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[01:19:54] I bet you that's where they got it. Fun. Super fun. Okay. My only note, well, I actually don't have any notes, but what was the line, Rachel, that you thought was the best line ever? She's a fucking mole. Yeah. Okay. That's if you. Um, just say that to somebody. Yes. And report it back to us. What happens? Point at a random woman. Say that. Good luck. I also, I also think people should. It'll be great. I promise.

[01:20:22] People should also, um, uh, use, um, marshmallows are for team players.

[01:20:58] That's right. I'm so. That's good. She can't talk. Yeah. That's all right. You don't know what she really thinks. Oh gosh. She's so judgmental. Who knows?

[01:21:38] All right.

[01:22:11] All right. Let's do some news. There's some news, just bits of news on several of the shows we cover on this podcast. So I was excited. First, um, speaking on the red carpet at the BAFTA TV awards where severance was nominated for best international series. As Adam Scott said, we're always trying to shorten the amount of time between seasons, but it's important for it to be great than for it to be fast. We're definitely planning on getting it out much sooner than the last round, which was three years, which is too long.

[01:22:40] So he says that the season two finale, I looked it up, aired March 20th, 2025 season three is filming. I think now through the end of this year, December, and they seem to think it'll premiere like late summer or fall of next year, which would be like two and a half years. Yeah. So yes, they are getting it out sooner. So much sooner. Maybe they'll surprise us and like spring it on us in like January or something. That'd be amazing. Yeah. That'd be nice.

[01:23:10] About Fallout, a new cast member was just announced for Fallout season three and that is Aaron Paul. Cool. No way. Right? Yay! Cool. Yeah. I don't know who he's going to play. I feel like he could play pretty much any type of Fallout character. He really could. Crazy person, a hero. Yeah. Yeah. He was a perfectly fine person in Westworld. I can't remember who he was exactly in Westworld. Yeah.

[01:23:39] It's just, it was not a great season. That's the problem. Yeah. I still love him. Yeah. I love him too. He's the best. About Pluribus, May 12th was Ray Sehorne's birthday. And I think in honor of that, Apple released a bonus Pluribus scene. It's called Pluribus Carol's Trip bonus scene. And I don't know if you remember, Karen, but when she took the sodium teopenthal to test out, test it out before she gave it to Zosia.

[01:24:04] And she's on the couch going crazy, but she just fast forwards through that part to the relevant parts. Well, it shows the whole thing. And it's super funny. Oh my gosh. I can't wait. I can't wait. I'll put a link in the show notes. Yes. It's on YouTube. Yes, please. And last, even though Welcome to Dairy season two hasn't been officially greenlit by HBO, the writers, it seems like they're a full go with it.

[01:24:34] The writers are moving forward and they brought in some new writers. According to Collider, quote, Jessica Mecklenburg, who worked on Stranger Things as a writer and producer. The Penguins, John McCutcheon, who penned the brilliant episode Sent Annie. I didn't watch that show, but I heard it was good. And John J. Freeze and Baron Bo Adar, creators of Netflix's sci-fi time travel series Dark. I never saw that either, but it was acclaimed and many listeners have asked me whether I've seen it.

[01:25:03] So anyway, I'm excited they're bringing in some talented writers for that show. It makes me feel good because I thought that it movies were good, but not amazing. And I mean, really good, but not really, really good. But the series I loved. It was better than I expected. And we covered it on this podcast. It was great. Hmm. So with that said, let's move into our listener feedback experience. Rachel, would you like to go first? Sure. Elena says marshmallows are for team players, Dylan. They don't just hand them out.

[01:25:32] This show is so goddamn entertaining and clever. Damien Wright. Yay, Rachel. And what a great image that is. Those hats are coveted as fuck. We also have a call from Damien, which I will play in a second. But first I'll mention that we have it set up for him to come and guest. I forget which episode. I think it's in a couple of weeks. So that'll be fun. Woohoo. Here is Damien.

[01:26:01] Hey, Karen. Hey, Jason. Burr. This was quite a departure. It just opened without any warning and kept ambling along at a dreamlike pace. There weren't even any opening credits. Just dropped us right in there. As usual, I loved it in all of its batshit craziness. Or should I say seal shit craziness.

[01:26:27] For a show that's so defined by its use of color, this episode seemed almost jarring in the fact that, like, most of it just seemed almost black and white. The monochrome of the landscape and the clothing was only punctuated sparingly by a few choice colors. Even Helly's hair was devoid of its usual red hue and looked totally brown.

[01:26:56] The mark in Helly, ugh, Hellena, scene in the tent was so vivid. It was gorgeously shot in all reds and oranges. There's a total contrast to Irv's snowy nightmare in the woods. So now we all know Hellena was undercover as Helly this whole season so far. It left a really bad taste in my mouth the first time I watched it.

[01:27:26] This time, still dead. But knowing the twist, it was hard not to study her face and her expressions. And I almost, almost felt a little bit sorry for her. Poor Mark. Ugh, what a gut punch this episode was. Especially with Irving walking off into apparent oblivion at the end.

[01:27:53] Yes, Milchick, in case we didn't realize already, is absolutely a piece of shit human. Despite his snazzy Hoth outerwear. Marshmallows are for players? Really? What a pathetic weasel. Don't mess with people's marshmallows, man. There were plenty of fun moments and trippy, dreamy moments throughout. The seal. Even better, the snow seal. In case you were hungry.

[01:28:21] I mean, Hellena was really trying to embrace her wacky side there. That was actually quite adorable. I loved the slightly off ghostly versions of the innies pointing the way along their journey. Like Jack's dad in Lost. Did they find some slightly ropey body doubles for that? I couldn't see them quite close enough to see, but something looked a bit off about them. Yeah.

[01:28:47] I loved Miss Wong playing the mood music on the theremin. I think I remember reading that the actor, she actually learned how to play that for that scene. No, it's not true. I did not love the creepy as all hell wretched creature woe in Irv's Nightmare. Yikes, that was unsettling. I don't quite know why. It was just terrible. It was like the dumpster guy in Mulholland Drive.

[01:29:17] I don't know if you remember that. Oh, don't remember. It's so unnerving. I don't. Quote of the week. This is the tallest waterfall on the planet. Yeah. Anyway, let's get back into that cozy office, please. Next week. The AC in my living room was actually making me think I was there with them, freezing my butt off. So, yeah. See you next week, you two. Oh, and I can make goo goo eyes at anyone I want. Thank you very much. Yes, you can. Yes, you can.

[01:29:49] I think people should be allowed to make goo goo eyes anytime they want. All right. Here's a call from Steve Brown. Yay, Steve. Hello, Waximpsodic. This is Steve. And I just started watching Woe's Hollow. And it just occurred to me, I'm watching the very beginning, Irving opens his eyes and he's already, any Irving is already out on the ice and the snow. So how did they get out of Irving onto that? I don't remember. Yeah. Mark asked. He ended up. He just changed. He woke up on the ice also.

[01:30:19] And Hellie says she woke up on the cliff. And I'm guessing Dylan just woke up on the cliff. I'm going to stop now because I don't want to give anything away. And Ortro. Okay. That's a creepy video. And it's still not done yet. They're just supposed to wander the forest and find the scissor cave? I don't know. For two days. Oh, they all said Woe's Hollow. Title of the episode, mic drop. Just realized we're like 14 minutes in. And have I not seen the credits yet? Did we not get an opening credits? Is this a huge folder? Correct.

[01:30:48] I didn't get it, huh? I think that's the tallest waterfall on the planet. Mr. Milchek just said Woe's Hollow again. Title of the episode, mic drop. I don't even know what to say about the twins. What kind of effed up recital is this that Milchek is reading? Oh, this looks like this is going to go more than kissing, I think. And she just mentioned his wife. No, Irving, you shouldn't have wandered off. And you shouldn't be falling asleep on the ground like that. Oh, that was creepy. Mark just saw his wife on Hellie's face. Oh, this Irving must be dreaming, right? At least Irving woke up.

[01:31:17] Oh, so Irving doesn't think this is Hellie. He thinks this is an Audi? Say, who would have the power to send an Audi to the severed floor? This got dark really fast, Irving. What did Milchek say? Remove the Glasgow block? Oh, so Irving just got fired and Hellie is an Egan. Oh, that stare down between Irving and Milchek. And now we get credits. Did I miss the opening credits? Did they have them or did I miss them? You did not. Anyway. Wow. Okay, can't go to the next episode.

[01:31:47] All right. Can't wait to hear you talk about this one. I didn't even realize that. Yeah, no opening credits. First, I don't think they had opening credits in the first episode of the season either, right? Just like in the first episode of the series. So this is the third time. I don't know for sure. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I feel like they did, but I'm also not totally sure. I don't know. Well, I'll have to go back and watch. Thanks, Steve. Thanks, Steve.

[01:32:17] All right. I'm going to read Rachel's message from last week that I ended up in my spam folder somehow. And now I'm going to rectify it. Unless you want to read it, Rachel. I really would rather not. So you go ahead. Here I go. I'll chime in if I feel like it. Okay. It says, hey, kids. No, I'm just kidding. It says, hey, kids. Nice sack. What a jam-packed episode. There's so much happening. Are you here to kill me? Brienne of Tarth.

[01:32:45] The first time I watched Severance, I had not yet seen Game of Thrones. So Gwendolyn Christie showed up and my husband exclaimed, oh, Gwendolyn Christie. And I said, who's that? Wow. I didn't know you hadn't seen Game of Thrones. Yeah. I just watched it like six months ago. I can ask you questions right in the moment. I know. This is like so meta. Like am I in my car listening right now and you're answering me? Okay. I don't know what's happening. Yes. That is exactly what's happening. She goes on. Can you imagine? Ha ha.

[01:33:15] But I, but I finally watched Game of Thrones last fall. So now, yay, Gwendolyn Christie. I'm so happy to see her. And I love the way she says, mammalians, nurturable. You don't do that justice. No, Karen, you go. You say it. I can. Mammalians, nurturable. There you go. Love it. So good. And we don't abide such fripperies here. I wonder if she's narrated any audio books or meditations. Google's answer. Yes. Kaleidoscope by Brian Selznick.

[01:33:44] But anyway, that's cool. But anyway, what the fuck? Why would Mark and Helly be there to kill her? Why are there a bunch of weirdos raising a bunch of goats? I love the uncomfortable strangeness of it all. I think they're all afraid of each other in the departments because that's the way Lumen wants it. Yeah. The board is jubilant of your ascendance. Quote, the scene between Milchick and Natalie is a complicated one. After seeing the paintings, Trammell Tillman does an incredible job conveying so many emotions without actually saying a single emotional word. Oh yeah.

[01:34:13] These paintings of him, him, a black version of Kier, et cetera. The board presented both black employees with the same gift, which is already insulting. And the gift is a falsified version of Kier whose visage has been perverted with black face. Similarly, simply to make him look more like Milchick. This is confusing and insulting on so many levels, especially for someone like Milchick who deeply admires Kier as the person he was and for everything he created in Lumen.

[01:34:39] Yes, Milchick is a black man, but he's also fiercely loyal and strives to exemplify the nine core principles. Are any of those honesty? Because I don't know. There should be one in there. The board could have acknowledged. That they're not. Wiles is his best. Yeah, that's his best one. The board could have acknowledged he has the patch for that and everything. The board could have acknowledged that he's reflected in Kier in those ways, presented

[01:35:05] him with any other type of artwork or award and recognizing his wiles, his verve, his cheer or his humility. Instead, they acknowledge his skin color. It's a good point. It's a gut punch for these two employees who are so wholeheartedly devoted to Kier and to Lumen. The board believes them to be simple, reduces them down to their race. And top of that is willing to change the essence of Kier. Does this not subvert the core of Lumen entirely that they'd be willing to alter Kier in some way? Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that too.

[01:35:34] If Kier's face is mutable, what else about Lumen is? It's the first tiny chink in the armor we see from Milchik and Natalie in their devotion as they share a profound look, neither willing to speak aloud. Milchik clearly feeling confused, disappointed, and insulted. And Natalie holding back tears, I think, as she maintains her plastered on smile. I swear I saw that. I rewatched it a couple of times. Yeah, maybe so. She was definitely holding back from being a real person.

[01:36:03] Both now know that Lumen is fallible. All the board did in their attempt to be more inclusive was make Milchik feel disillusioned and alienated. I'm sure there's plenty of nuance I'm missing as a white woman, but that's my take as a viewer. Quote, okay, who's that child? End quote. This is Merit Weaver appreciation segment. How fun that we're enjoying her as Denise on The Walking Dead right now, too. I know. I feel the same way. She's great on there, too. I love the way she plays Gretchen. She's kind and loving, calm and curious, patient and encouraging.

[01:36:32] Such a soft and warm presence. Any Dylan must be instantly in love with her, even after just 18 minutes. Not 15 and not 20, 18. Beswang says he's being rewarded for, quote, good behavior and output. Haven't they only been back in the office after their extremely bad behavior for like a couple of days? That should be a red flag, Dylan. But he wants it too badly. So he's falling for everything Milchik and Huang tell him. It's a pretty good gift. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:01] That brings me to Irving, who greets Felicia by saying, I'm sorry to pop in after all this time. Too bad she wasn't like, all this time. It's only been a week. That's exactly what I said. I know. I was like, you're in my head. Yeah. Freaking Natalie, using her wiles to influence Rickon. She knows exactly how to appeal to him. Not that it's very difficult. So astute. That's what I was going for. I can't even follow the excerpt from his book. Poor people are sad because they can't afford wine, which is the only beverage that can fill the void left by love.

[01:37:31] We didn't really talk about that. It's pretty funny. We didn't. And they're giggling together in a weird flirty way. And Rickon has, quote, moved past the question of how his book got onto the severed floor. God, Natalie is good. Devin fully knows this woman is dubious, but her attitude seems, okay, I'm going to shell this for now and come back to it later. I mean, she has to have that attitude a lot with Rickon, to be fair. Yeah. Okay. Whatever, man. Quote, unlock his fucking door. Why is Ruggabi so aggressive?

[01:38:01] But holy shit, she confirmed that Gemma's alive. And Mark says, do it. This reintegration procedure is kind of terrifying. And I definitely don't trust that she knows exactly what she's doing. But I appreciate the humor in this scene. Quote, is that the first question? No. This show is so good at weaving subtle and dry humor into otherwise incredibly serious scenes. I don't remember what that exchange was about. Is that the first question? She's like, okay, I'm going to ask you a series of questions. Oh, yeah. And he's like, okay. And she's like, do you remember the protocol?

[01:38:31] And he's like, is that the first question? Wait, is that the first question? No. That's so funny. Totally unnecessary, but very appreciated. She asked him something else and he's like, wait, have we started now? And she's like, yes. That's so good. Then you go on. Lastly, was Helena's henchman going to straight up kill Cobel? Good instincts getting the hell out of there. Now, before I go, I'd like to see your bellies.

[01:38:59] Which is totally different now that we could be on camera. That's hilarious. I'm showing you my belly right now. Yeah. Nice. Great bellies, guys. Great bellies. Thanks. No pouches. That doesn't prove anything.

[01:39:31] All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. And Rachel, thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. Oh, yes. Loved it. I loved having you on. Thank you. Rachel's going to also be guesting on The Walking Dead cast. Is that like next week or pretty soon, right? Next week. Right. Yeah. It's in like a few days. Right on. Yay.

[01:39:58] Next episode of this podcast, Severance Season 2, Episode 5, Trojan's Horse. If you want to write in or leave us a voicemail about it, you can send it to waffleparty at podcastica.com. Or you can leave comments in the podcastica Discord or in our Facebook group where you can also chat with us and other listeners about Severance. Yeah. I would love to see some chat about it. This is a chat-worthy show.

[01:40:21] If you're following along and you want to like ask a question or tell us a theory or whatever, it doesn't even have to be something that's going to go on the podcast if you just want to like talk about it. I'd love to see some chatter in there. Anyway, I will put links in the show notes for all that. I also want to mention this episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Kelly Burgess who pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Cabassi.

[01:40:45] Thank you so much to Kelly who's been a supporter for a really long time now and she's awesome. And I haven't mentioned Patreon lately, but Wax Episodic would not exist without it. So I really, really appreciate the support of everyone who's supporting. Thank you. If you are not a supporter and you enjoy this podcast and haven't signed up, please consider it. You get to support the show and you get ad-free episodes and occasional perks.

[01:41:12] I've been kind of slacking on the perks lately, but I'm starting to get back into it. I went to Japan recently. And so this weekend I'm going to do a call-in show with whoever patrons want to join in where we share travel photos and talk about trips we've taken. And Penny just went to Africa and Wendy went to Spain and Jamie went to Japan last year. So at least all of us are going to be in there just showing pictures and talking about what it was like. That should be fun.

[01:41:41] Yeah, that's so cool. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. She's a fucking mole.

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