Severance S2E6 "Attila"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm... Look, I am so sorry. I can't even imagine what it must be like to... You thought it was me. 100%. Which means you wanted to. With me. Yeah... What sucks is that she got to have that and I didn't.

[00:00:30] That she used me to check my friends. Used my body to get close to you. That she dresses me in the morning like I'm a baby. That she controls me and this company and all of us. It's disgusting. Hey, do you want me to like describe what happened? Like I feel like you have every right...

[00:00:54] No, no, no. I don't want her memory. I want my own. Would you like that? Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Kara. And I'm Damien. It's Damien! Yay! And this is Wax Episodic.

[00:01:23] And this episode we're covering Severance Season 2 Episode 8 Attila. Hi there, you on the table. I wonder if you'd mind taking a brief survey. Five questions. Who are you? Who are you? It's Damien! I do have questions for you. It is! And this is going to make you feel right as rain, so don't worry. First question. Are you willing to eradicate from your essence childish folly? No, I'm just kidding. I wanted to know... Never!

[00:01:53] Never will I do that. Okay, good. That's the right answer. What is your experience with Severance and your history with Severance? Let's start there. Well, I missed it when it first aired. Like when both seasons first aired. Oh yeah! But I had a whole bunch of friends, especially when the second season aired, just telling me to watch it, watch it, watch it.

[00:02:16] And it was everywhere in social media and, you know, so I waited until it finished airing so I could just watch it all in one go. And yeah, we basically just binged all of Season 1, all of Season 2, which, you know, now I'm realizing as I listen to you guys and other people phoning in, like the horrors you had to go through waiting between Seasons 1 and 2. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:45] So I, yeah, I, so I really just watched it last year. But even in one year, it has that amazing effect, which you guys have talked about, that we can't remember anything. Yeah. So, yeah. I think a cure for that is podcasting on it. I don't know, I wonder if listening, I bet that helps people too, listening to us. Oh, absolutely. Just burrow it into your brain a little bit more.

[00:03:10] I also wondered, Damien, what, how you found us and what your history is with like podcastica pretty fairly recently, right? Yeah. Um, it was probably just over a year ago or whenever, um, the ones who live, um, aired. Oh, really? That's been a while. I've been a massive Walking Dead fan ever since it came out. Oh, cool. But it never, I hadn't seen you guys until I was just, I must've been Googling, uh, for the Rick and Michonne show. Yeah.

[00:03:38] And luckily I found you guys cause it was just awesome. Like to have a friend there to watch it with. Yeah. Cause a lot of other people, you know, it's not the cultural behemoth that it used to be. So like you can kind of feel a little bit alone sometimes, especially with a spinoff. So it was really cool listening to, you know, you guys being so infused about it. So that was really, really cool.

[00:04:03] And then I started just listening to some of your other, um, podcasts, but I kept missing just as I was listening. You'd add them all. So I just, for a while I was listening without phoning in and I never actually got to listen to the Walking Dead cast, but I am a massive fan. Um, but yeah, I think Alien Earth was the first one. That's when I remember you. Yeah. Writing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Kara, Kara was on that, right? Yes. And I, yeah, I miss her.

[00:04:33] Kara really loves, um, Widow's Bay by the way. I wonder if she'd want to chat about that sometime with us. Um, so, uh, what was I going to say? Yeah. Like with Walking Dead, um, there were up to 60 Walking Dead podcasts when it was at its peak. Wow. And, um, now I think it's just us and Chris and Jason over on Talking Dead. Now there might be a couple more, but not very many. Yeah. But people, people still find this stuff these days. That's the thing. Yeah.

[00:05:03] There's like an endless stream of new people coming to find this. Cool. I hate the word content, but you know, new people are going to find the Walking Dead every day. Sure. So it's good that you stick in there. Well, let's get off the Walking Dead and into Severance. Would you like to read the plot summary, Damien? Sure. Okay. So Severance, season two, episode six, Attila. Uh, Dylan informs Mark and Heli about his discovery of Irving's instructions to reach the exports hall.

[00:05:32] Milkshake takes time off to address the infractions in his performance review, leaving Miss Huang in charge. Mark confesses to Heli that he and Helena had sex during the Orkbo. Uh, feeling that Helena stole this experience from her, Heli initiates sex with Mark. Gretchen visits Dylan's innie again and the two kiss. She later lies to outie Dylan that the visitation was cancelled.

[00:05:58] Uh, Burton fields have Irving for dinner and an awkward, yeah, that's very awkward conversation unfolds. Uh, meanwhile Drummond breaks into Irving's apartment and discovers his directory of Illumin employees. Raghabi tells Mark they must accelerate the reintegration process by surgically flooding his Severance chip, despite the risk of hemorrhage. Uh, Mark initially refuses but later encounters, uh, Helena at a restaurant.

[00:06:26] He leaves shortly after and decides to proceed with the procedure. While talking to Devon right after the procedure, Mark suffers a seizure and collapses and dies. Oh, sorry. The end. No spoilers for the next episode. Um, so, Karen, what did you think about this one? I love it. A lot of thruples in this episode. Between two people. Yeah. Sometimes. Um, very fraught.

[00:06:53] Um, we didn't learn much about what Cold Harbor was or really anything to sort of further along the plot much. But it was an exploration, a lovely exploration of all the relationships between the severed and the non-severed people and what that could look like. And, um, I can't wait to dive in. It's funny you use the word fraught because that's in my notes. Is it?

[00:07:15] Especially with Mark at the end when he's, she's just told him don't move your head and then he has to run upstairs and then he lands on the floor. You know, I'm just like, no, God. Yeah. He does. He never listens to anything she says. What about you, Damien? Yeah. I mean, that was, we've been waiting for stuff. I mean, it seems bad. This always seems like a, uh, a criticism of severance for some people, but we've been waiting for stuff to happen this season.

[00:07:45] And with the reintegration, um, I feel like it's going pretty quickly now. I mean, it cannot like not develop next week and the week after that. Right. Like he's literally, you never know what this show. He might just be going off for like three more episodes. Maybe. I don't care though. I'm not in a hurry. I'm really not. I, in fact, when Karen just said, Oh no, there weren't a lot of plot developments. I was like, Oh yeah, I guess not. Yeah.

[00:08:14] It was one of those episodes where. I mean, in theory, when you first watch it, you know, you're just so engrossed, but then it's over and you're like, wait, what happened? It was just a whole bunch of conversations, but my God, those conversations, we will dive into them, but they were, uh, I feel like this show is in some ways about the plot and it's about a lot of things, but it's also about the progression of people's characters and their relationships with each other.

[00:08:41] And we, I think we saw a lot of progression there in this episode. I loved it. It's one of my favorites, maybe of the whole series. I really liked the dynamics between the different versions of the innies and the outies. Cause it's three stories of pairs of people whose different versions of themselves had relationships and chemistry with each other. And so then you're seeing versions of them who either both, or at least one of them had never met the other before.

[00:09:08] And that chemistry is still there. And I just think that's so fascinating and interesting to watch and, and just to sort of ponder what it means ethically sometimes and stuff like that, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I just love that kind of stuff. That's like the kind of stuff I tend to talk about more when I watch a show. So the fact that there wasn't a lot of plot, I didn't even notice. That's true. This was a, this was a very Jason forward episode.

[00:09:37] Yeah, maybe it was. It was. All right. Uh, Damien, do you want to go first? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Um, I think as an overarching theme for this episode, um, the question of whether or not innies are people, right?

[00:09:56] Um, and then going off of that, there's the issue of consent and who has ownership of the body between the innies, the innies and the outie. I mean, in season one, Helena famously told Helly in, uh, one of the video messages after she tried to damage herself in some way. She said, I am a person you are not.

[00:10:19] And that's pretty succinctly how a lot of people on that side of things seem to think of the innies. The ones with power. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So in this episode, that's, that's touched upon a lot of times.

[00:10:37] Um, definitely in the dinner party, which we'll go into more detail, but you know, fields literally is, uh, is, is talking about the, uh, the innies and you know, whether they can go to heaven. Like are they, you know, are they real people?

[00:10:55] He's a good example of an outsider who is, is a stand for the rights of innies, which I just really, I, we got a very little bit of time with him, but it made me admire him as a person. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he says literally innies deserve to experience love. Yeah. Um, and he says, I hope it was beautiful, but then it takes a turn. Yeah. Yeah. He's got some conflicting things going on.

[00:11:23] I hope you didn't have unprotected sex. Yeah. And I love that. Cause we, I, I'm like, you know, there's some people who are just very certain a lot of the time. And there's some people who aren't good at nuance or complexity or holding two conflicting ideas in their brain at one time. And I kind of pride myself on not being like that. And I think fields is similar. He can be jealous. He can be worried. He can be telling himself that he's asking about sex cause he's worried about, uh, unprotected sex, but really he just wants to know if they did it.

[00:11:53] Maybe, but also he can be a stand for the rights of this other who, what he considers as a person. And maybe, I don't know how much he actually feels that how much he just sort of cognitively believes it, but he said it. So I, that made me admire him for pointing it out, even though it's sort of against his interests to feel that way. You know? No, absolutely. Um, well you were saying like who had like the ethics of who has ownership over the body.

[00:12:19] And it just made me think about a roommate situation in an apartment. Like you both own the apartment or you're renting it or whatever, but you have to kind of get along and agree how you're going to treat it together. And it seems like in an ideal world, well, I've said, ideally, I think the in ease and out he should just integrate and become one person with, you know, have access to all the memories that they made.

[00:12:41] But, um, if you can't separate the two, it would be good if you could somehow come to an agreement with each other about what's allowed. You know, like you can have sex if you want, but try to be safe or I don't know what, what the rules. I mean, they don't, they don't probably, they didn't consider that when they were undergoing the severance procedure, they were actually making a fully separate human. Yeah.

[00:13:09] A fully separate human with agency. And they probably never really thought about what that would mean. I mean, they're actively refuting that. They say the in ease are not people. Lumen does. Yeah. Oh yeah. Lumen does for sure. For sure. But, but we know that's not true. We know that they are fully realized humans with agency. Yeah.

[00:13:38] But then they, they, you know, completely block the in ease and the outies from knowing anything about the other. So it's almost like they don't get to even have that thought of, are they, have they created a brand new human? They're just, just like, oh, I got this. I have this bandaid on my hand. They said this happened. Like, that's it.

[00:13:58] I mean, it's kind of extraordinary that they're letting Gretchen come there and talk to Dylan about who he's like on the outside and what his, what his hobbies are. They're, they, they're letting her have, tell him all kinds of things. They're not really stopping her from, from telling her what exactly what Dylan's all about. Audi Dylan.

[00:14:26] And that was maybe Milchik being, you know, that was when he decided to be a nicer person. I wonder if he'll take that away now. But that actually leads to my point. Do you mind if I go into it? No, do. It's Dylan and Gretchen. Cause I really love that whole, that's one of the things that stands out to me the most about season two, because as Damien pointed out, we've forgotten a lot of it, but that really stood in, in, in my mind.

[00:14:53] And, and, um, I thought it was interesting the way that she, sometimes it is hard for people who aren't severed to remember that they're two people, you know, she kept referring to him, but she, she seemed confused about it. Like, um, you know, I wish we could be together. And she's like, we are, aren't we? Well, he is, but not me. You know, she, she had to keep being reminded of that.

[00:15:23] But first off, like talking about, um, how Audi Dylan has done, dabbled in scuba woodworking garage beer making. And she thinks that's a sign he's not happy. And I guess always looking for something. And, um, he goes, I'm sure it's not that. Cause you know, I mean, here with you, I'm super happy. I just want to hear about all of my offspring and stare at your face. Sorry. That was weird. No, I like it. I like this.

[00:15:52] And I just think that, um, he's, I've, I've kind of said this before about the story already, but it's like they're, he's in the honeymoon phase of their relationship. When they first met, I think Dylan probably, you know, Audi Dylan was just like this when they first met. And she's like, Oh my God, where did that Dylan go? Here he is. This is amazing. And so that's one reason why she doesn't want to think of him as another person because she wants him to be her Dylan.

[00:16:19] And, um, I think it's hard for both of them because she wishes her husband was like this again. And any Dylan has just never had an experience of intimacy like this before. And it's with someone that he's already inclined to be attracted to and have chemistry with because we know that because they're married, you know, in the outside world. And I just keep coming back to the idea that in essence, they're the same.

[00:16:47] So if you're going to meet someone and strike up, it's just feels natural to be together. And you feel like you're real self and relaxed around them that if you have this severance procedure and you meet that person again, it's likely to go in that direction again, potentially, you know, more likely than, than it would be with a random person. You don't think so? Maybe.

[00:17:12] I mean, this whole story reminds me of one of my favorite movies ever. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Oh, that's so good. Did you see that? Yeah. Uh-huh. That's one of my faves. Yeah. And it's, for people who don't know, it's my favorite Jim Carrey movie and Kate Winslet. And they're this couple and they, we see them meeting, strike up a relationship and it's fun and everything. But then they get tired of each other and they start fighting and they're sick of each other.

[00:17:42] And I think that it's not told chronologically, but there's this procedure where you can have your memory of a certain person erased. And so they both severed, if you will. Kind of. Yeah. And they both, they both do that. And then they meet each other and kind of fall for each other again. And then they hear somehow a tape of themselves arguing viciously with each other. And they look at each other and they're like, oh fuck. Like, is that what's in our future?

[00:18:09] And then they have to decide whether they want to stay together and potentially go into that or not. And I just love that story because it shows, like, just the idea of recapturing the beginning of that. And there's something really appealing about the whole concept to me and seeing, what's her name? Gretchen and Annie Dillon here. It kind of reminded me of that same thing, how it was just so sweet seeing them together, you know?

[00:18:39] Do you feel like in a way though, she's cheating on Audi Dillon? Absolutely. Absolutely. She didn't tell Audi Dillon. She lied to him. Yeah. Yeah. At home we see he wants a new car and she's hesitant. And she'd also mentioned that the scuba lessons were expensive. So clearly he's not good with money. And she lies about her meeting with him, saying her meeting with Annie Dillon was canceled because she didn't want to have to talk about how it went.

[00:19:10] And now she says, I didn't see him. I mean you. So now she does think of them as separate when she gets home because it's like the distinction is so clear to her. And now it feels like, oh, this is the other man. And yeah, she's totally having an affair, you know, with her husband. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, you can see it on, I mean, she's such a great actress, Merrick Weaver. Yes. I mean, and again, this show puts you in everyone's shoes if you're open-minded enough to do that.

[00:19:40] And yeah, I can completely see it from her point of view. I mean, how intoxicating would that be? You've got this kind of what's turned into a doofus at home who just can't get his shit together. So spending, it might be their money, but it's probably her money over and over. And then suddenly you get this like sweet baby lamb version who's just like, who wants to stare at your face, literally. I mean, yeah, you can't blame her. But at the same time, yikes. Yeah.

[00:20:09] I mean, people have affairs all the time and this just feels like a weird sci-fi version, but it's so human too. And it's, yeah, like you said, you can understand it. It's not cool. And also I did have a thought like at home, it's like, well, he's not that bad. He's engaging with her. He does seem like he's wanting to buy things that they maybe can't afford, but he also got his job back at Lumen. And so it's a, it's double income. I don't know.

[00:20:39] But, but also he just seemed like he was engaged enough. He wanted to know where, how it went at work. You know, it's not, I mean, we didn't get to see that much of it, but my guess is that their relationship is fine, but the spark is kind of gone. And it's just become more about managing their life. And he's not too, he's not involved enough in that. Like she wishes.

[00:21:02] And like she said, you know, he just, she just thinks that maybe he's not that happy, but it's still, it seemed okay. But the difference between okay and like it was at the beginning in the honeymoon phase is just too appealing to her. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's looking at her like she is the sweetest little snack. And who wouldn't want that?

[00:21:29] I'm, I'm with her, you know, having somebody say, oh my God, how could he be, how could he be unhappy? He gets to look at you. And all I want to do is look at your beautiful face and, and hear about my kids. I mean, woo, heady stuff. And she probably felt, you know, maybe she never would have allowed herself to be that vulnerable with anybody else for risk of having an affair. But it's, she probably just kind of got caught up in it because it is him.

[00:21:59] And then when she, only when she got home and Audi Dylan asked her about her day, did she get, did she sort of make that shift to like, oh, wait, I'm doing something wrong here. I can't tell him. Right. Yeah. It's a very specific situation, right? It's like a unique situation. So. Right. Okay. Karen, what do you want to talk about? Okay. So I'm actually, I want to talk about this, but I really want to get Damien and Jason's view about this.

[00:22:28] Because I have a question. I'm going to present my question at the end. So I want to talk about Irving and his dinner with Fields and Bert. Bert and Fields, which sounds like sort of a brand of skincare products. Bert and Fields. So he has this really tense dinner with them. A, I love their house. I think their house is super cool.

[00:22:53] They have these old, at least I think, salt and pepper, like wooden salt and pepper shakers above their cabinets. I thought it was chess pieces at first, but yeah. Oh, I think they're salt and pepper shakers. They're beautiful. The whole thing was gorgeous. And it was, it was really interesting. They, I loved, I loved their house. I loved the whole, the whole thing. The kitchen. I mean, I always love great kitchens with those islands. I'm always jealous. Yes, me too. Me too. Me too.

[00:23:22] So we learned a couple of things. So he has this crazy dinner with them where he has a pile of loose corn and he has, he has ham with a cumin glaze. And, you know, it's tense and, and Fields is kind of prickly about the whole thing. And maybe drinks a little too much.

[00:23:47] They talk about things like, uh, they have a cute little nickname for each other, Attila, which is how they get the title of the episode. They used to call each other hun. And then they started calling each other Attila, which I thought was funny. Um, they, uh, Fields implies that Bert has been with Lumen for a lot longer than he, he sort of blamed it on the alcohol.

[00:24:14] But he says, you've been with them for about 20 years. And Bert kind of corrects him and says, um, no, it's closer to 12. And, um, it's all, it's all very strange. Um, and I don't, I don't quite understand. And I also don't quite understand how, um, their, their explanation about why Audi Bert got severed in the first place. He was apparently something of a scoundrel.

[00:24:43] And they were worried about him because they're Lutherans. They were worried about him not getting into heaven, which is actually, I'm, I'm, I'm Jewish. So I'm not sure how that works, but I thought you could sort of ask forgiveness, um, for your sins. And it doesn't matter what your past looks like. You could still get to heaven if you were truly repentant. I don't know. Anyway. Um, so, I mean, I thought that was sort of a, a Christianity thing, but I could be completely wrong.

[00:25:10] So it's, it all felt like kind of a cover story. And then, and then, um, someone breaks into, as the dinner party is going along, someone breaks in and we, we figure out it's Mr. Drummond, breaks into Irving's house and finds his chest with all of the lumen intelligence that Bert has been collecting, which includes, um, um, everything that's in the, um, in the footlocker.

[00:25:40] And, uh, I want to come back to this cause it's kind of funny because in the severance wiki, they actually talk about it. But how did Mr. Drummond know that Irving would be out of his apartment for the dinner? And my guess, I want to get your take on this too, Jason and Damien. Um, my guess is that somehow Bert is in on this.

[00:26:03] Um, that's the only way I could think that Mr. Drummond would be secure in knowing that Irving wasn't going to come home. So he knows that he's at Bert's house having dinner and I'm thinking, wow, did Bert tip him off? Just a, just a random thought.

[00:26:19] And I think the reason why Mr. Drummond is checking his, his apartment at all is now he's suspicious after the Ortbo when Irving, um, correctly figures out that Hellie is Helena. Um, now that sort of raised the suspicions over at Lumen about exactly what Irving knows. So Mr. Drummond is there to sort of get some, uh, figure out what it is.

[00:26:48] And he finds a gold mine because he finds all this Lumen intel. Um, so I think it all goes back to Bert. Am I just a suspicious person? No, I think you're, I think you're completely right. I mean, it, it sucks because we all love any Bert so much, but, uh, in the words of Rachel, uh, he's a fucking mole.

[00:27:12] Um, yeah, no, I mean that whole thing, he said, um, you know, uh, field says it was 20 years ago. He remembers the specific conversation when they mentioned the, uh, the nickname and it startled, but Lumen partner, whoever the hell that was. And then he said, oh no, it's 10 years. And then Irv says, oh, actually wasn't Severance just started 12 years ago, but obviously Severance started 12 years ago, but Lumen's been around for a long time.

[00:27:41] So, but having a Lumen partner is, uh, is very suspicious. Yep. So the way I read that, you know, we find out Bert wanted to do the severed thing because he was a scoundrel and thought he was going to hell. And, you know, I think the main thing that Christians think is if you're a bad person, you might go to hell.

[00:28:03] I don't think, I mean, yeah, they feel like a lot of Christians feel like if I ask forgiveness, it won't matter, but that's not, that's the best thing to do is to be a good person. You know, if you're bad, you're going to go to hell. And, um, when the, the pastor said, and he's had their own souls. And so maybe Bert's any could go to heaven and be with fields there. Yeah.

[00:28:27] I don't know for sure if we can take that story as true or not, but I, I think my sense is it is true, whether it is, if it is, I think it's a really sweet story and I kind of love it. And it makes me feel sad for fields because now he knows that Bert's any found love with someone else who's now sitting in his kitchen. So that sort of throws the whole plan into question for him because maybe any Bert soul would be with any Irving soul in heaven, you know? Yeah. Right.

[00:28:57] Probably would. Um, but I also think I, I, I, my sense is that fields, if Bert is up to something, I don't think fields is in on it. And I think fields loves Bert, but Bert is a scoundrel that fields feels like he needs to keep a handle on. So this whole thing about doing the severed procedure so that he can be with the good part of Bert in heaven is sort of like how their relationship always is.

[00:29:24] Like he's trying to encourage the positive parts of him, but has to deal with the negative. That's the sense I got. But, and then we see that if we can take Bert at face value, he's fully ready to cheat on fields with Irving at the end there. All of this just makes me feel bad for fields. Like, I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but right now I'm taking him at face value and just, yeah, he is sort of, you know, jabbing at them a little bit, but who can blame him?

[00:29:48] I think the reason why he invited Irving over for dinner is because he knows that Irving and Bert, their innie versions had an affair and he's just trying to process and deal with that the best he can. And he probably wants to insert himself into the situation a little bit so that he can find out what happened and just feel a little bit more control over it.

[00:30:09] And, and I, I took it when he said his Lumen partner, you know, he goes, uh, they were talking about how they used to call each other, hun, and change to Attila and field says, I remember we were having drinks with your Lumen partner quite startled him. I think he means that was somebody that Bert was cheating on fields with at Lumen. And when they, you know, gave the little pet name for each other, it startled him.

[00:30:38] I don't know though, but that's the way that I took it. Well, since, since, um, that was 20 years ago, according to, according to, uh, fields, it was before Irving was severed. So I, sorry, before Bert was severed. So I think Bert was working at Lumen and had a partner, like maybe a security partner somehow, um, a partner in something.

[00:31:07] Um, but I think it was pre-severance. Partner in the bed. That's what I'm saying. Oh, you think, yeah. It was absolutely pre-severance. But I'm just saying when he said, you know, I'll go through it again, where he said, I remember we were having drinks with your Lumen partner quite startled him. And then Irving says, didn't the first severed office open 12 years ago? Bert says, yes, it did. And points to his drink. Maybe that's enough of that because he's like, you're bringing up my affair and then we have company. I don't want to talk about it. You know, that's what I got out of it.

[00:31:35] You're bringing up my affair with the, with the person who my innie's having the affair with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, then they go out onto the porch and well, Irving says, you know, that was fun. We should do it again sometime. And then Bert says with or without fields. And it seems like both of them are open to cheating together, you know, Irving and Bert. Right. And I did.

[00:31:59] But then, then when Irving leaves, the thing that made me most feel like you, you might have something cared is that when Irving leaves, Bert has this look on his face, a sly look. And I don't know if that's him just acting like a cheating scoundrel who's going to hell or if he has some ulterior motive. I think it could be either.

[00:32:23] Also, when he was talking about it, did you notice that he was framed by the fireplace and the flames of the fireplace behind him when he was talking about that? I love that Bert, that Audi Bert is much more of a devilish guy than any Bert was. Like when he first gets there, he goes, who the hell are you? I'm just kidding. And, you know, any Bert wasn't really like that.

[00:32:50] But it makes sense with the way the story goes, too, because any Bert had a pure soul and he was going to go to heaven. But then it makes me wonder, OK, if my theory that the essence of the innie and the outie are the same, then how can that be that one would go to heaven and one would go to hell? And I feel like the only way is if outie Bert had a lot of trauma in his life or something that changed his personality, something like that. Or maybe it's all fake and he's just trying to set Irving up for something.

[00:33:19] I just don't know. I mean, because Bert, like, you know, we've seen him a couple of times, you know, watching Irving over the payphone and we thought it was just that he wanted to track him down. But now I just don't know. I mean, it has to be that he was, you know, he invited Irving over so then drunk go to his apartment, you know. So what does that mean? Is Bert actually reasonably important within Lumen?

[00:33:49] Like, has he been for a while? I just don't know. I mean, I think I agree that obviously Fields doesn't seem to know. But that means, you know, Fields is literally out of that picture and kept in the dark about that for how many years? Like if he's been, you know. So that seems like their relationship, that it's the relationship where one of them keeps the other in the dark and the other one sort of bewildered by the whole thing. Yeah.

[00:34:18] But plus, you know, as soon as he's in a dark space and he stops smiling, it's like Christopher frickin' Walken. Yeah, that's right. So like, yeah, I mean, he has the charm, but my God, the altie version of Bert is just, you know, I just keep getting drawn back to Christopher Walken and True Romance. I think that was like his scoundrel days. Yeah. When he played the mobster. Yeah, the more you guys are talking about it, it wasn't just the look.

[00:34:44] It was the fact that they made a point to show Drummond showing up right when Irving was over at Bert's house. And so now I'm like, okay, maybe Bert is still working for Lumen and just trying to help them catch this guy who they know is or they suspect has been investigating them. Maybe. Yeah, I mean, the second time I watched that dinner, like.

[00:35:07] I could see Bert, like, just steering the conversation and just, you know, it's like he was in control of everything. And as soon as, you know, Fields says something, he's like, you know, maybe that's enough of that. But maybe he also wants to do the deed with him, too, you know? Well, there's that, too. He seemed like he was interested. Is there some ulterior motive to that? Or is he just like, eh, might as well just do that, too? I like this guy.

[00:35:38] It's an added perk. Yeah, because like I said, I still stand by that, you know, they had chemistry inside and fell in love. Oh, absolutely. Maybe he feels something for him outside, too. Jason, you always love love. I'm just saying what I see on the screen. I don't know. Well, that's probably why this was your favorite episode. It's like just loved up. I mean, apparently it aired originally the week after Valentine's Day.

[00:36:06] And it's just, yeah, every single person is in some kind of messed up love triangle or square or pentagon or something. All right. I think it's whose turn is it? Damien, right? Yeah. Yeah. It might be mine. Yeah. So let's see. Point. Helena stalking outie market the Chinese restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. So that whole thing was crazy.

[00:36:33] So he's, Mark is starving. He's mentioned it as an innie and an outie, we think due to this procedure. So he's in his little local Chinese restaurant with an absolute ton of food that he's just eaten. Yes. And then, oh, did you notice the song that was playing in the background at the restaurant? No. Well, it was the same song that was playing at the Egg Bar Social.

[00:37:03] What? It's really kooky. Yeah. It's this really kooky song. And I have a note on it somewhere here. It is Chinese Surfer by Kava Khan. Wow. So that was playing in the background of the coveted as fuck Egg Bar Social. Well spotted. Yeah. I wonder if they had to pay, like, if they got a discount if they used it twice. But anyway, so he's chowing down on his food. And then freaking Helena Egan walks in.

[00:37:33] And I was trying to remember when she first walks in a couple of booths away facing him. And she sits down and smiles. Like, I was like, does he know who she is in whatever capacity? You know, and then she smiles. And he does the whole classic, like, looking behind. She was looking at someone else. And then she comes over. And, you know, they talk. And she starts flirting. It's absolutely crazy. You know, she says, like, I hope they're feeding you at work. Yeah.

[00:38:04] You know, and then they have a little back and forth. And it takes a turn when she mentions his wife's name, but she gets it wrong. Intentionally. And I was like, is that intentional? It is intentional. For sure. She knows exactly what's going on. Why? But why? Why would she do that? It's crazy because she was just flirting with him. It 100% was intentional. Yeah. For what reason? No, absolutely.

[00:38:28] Gemma and Mark are key to the most important thing that is happening, which is finishing Cold Harbor. On the planet. Yeah. In the history of the planet. And I think that the would-be CEO of Lumen certainly knows exactly what is happening and knows that her name is Gemma and not Hannah. I think she was fucking with her.

[00:38:55] I mean, I feel like that whole scene was Helena is in love with Mark. And so she followed him there and tried to, you know, flirt him up and get him. I mean, she asked, she apologized. Oh, I'm really sorry about what happened the other day with that overtime thing because she wanted an excuse to spend more time with him. She said, you know, I would like to hear more about that sometime.

[00:39:25] So I think she was trying to set up a date there. And their same theme that I've been talking about this whole episode. They, even though Mark doesn't like her, he couldn't help but be drawn into her, you know? And they started flirting and they're both like smiling at each other. But that's why if, I mean, my story is completely wrong if she knew the name and said the wrong one, because I think she's trying to flirt him up.

[00:39:54] And so saying the wrong name just totally killed that vibe, you know? Yeah, I mean, I literally, I wrote what the fuck, like, did, you know, did she do that on purpose? I didn't know. I mean, it's clear that she, you know, she wants what her Annie got, right? She literally watched her Annie, the free expressive, you know, Annie kiss Mark. And then she did the whole undercover operation and literally had sex with Mark.

[00:40:23] And now here she is. And it's absolutely crazy when you think about it, because she sat there, she knows that he had sex with her, but he doesn't. And then neither of them know that they both had sex earlier that day, probably. And it's just, it's incredible. I mean, but yeah, like, I just don't know. I mean, part of me thinks she can't help herself. You know, in like, Kobelvig, she could not help herself from just prodding at Mark and just trying to,

[00:40:52] but she was bringing up Gemma a little bit and I don't know. I mean, she's kind of cruel. Sometimes, you know how she was cruel to Irving on the, um, the Ortbo. And so I guess she, cause I think she wants Mark for herself. And so she doesn't want it to matter that he had, uh, an ex-wife like that person isn't important anymore.

[00:41:18] So, but, but I don't think she would necessarily want to needle him in that moment with, with that. You know, I just think she's trying to make a connection. But the thing is, uh, the, wherever she was coming from, the impact that it had on him, he was starting to soften towards her big time. And then she said that, and that just killed it because she said the wrong name.

[00:41:41] And also because he knows that she's actually alive and trapped inside Lumen and that Helena probably knows that. So it just reminded him that, oh wait, you're talking to the person who leads the company that has my wife trapped. And she's now sitting here in front of me, pretending not to even know that. So then he's like, fuck this. I'm out of here. And then now he's ready to do this procedure that he was scared of a little while ago. So she really prodded him into that. He did start coughing too.

[00:42:11] So, um, he, he, he knew that the effects of the, um, of the reintegration were happening as well. So right, right then he starts coughing and coughs and coughs and she, and he's like, excuse me, gotta go. I think she, she pissed him off. Cause you, when she came in, he was like, I don't like you. I don't want to have anything to do with you. But then he started to soften.

[00:42:33] And then as soon as the subject came around to his wife and he was just reminded of all of that, it's like, oh, forget you. Yeah. That was like a look of pure disgust on his face when she started, you know, after that she got the name wrong and she was like, yeah, it's such a shame. She was so young. And then, yeah, it's bullshit. And then Helena stares into his eyes at lovingly. I don't know.

[00:43:00] I think felt like she was just trying to, I don't know what she was doing, but she's, I think she's in love with him. And then he was like feeling something or, and I thought, I thought at first he was like, why is she looking at me like that? Maybe she knows my Annie, but now I just think that he's because he's been slowly reintegrating that he found her familiar. He's like, wait a minute. I feel like I know you, you know?

[00:43:27] Do you think, do you think that, uh, she might be, um, also become pregnant? That was another point. She's had, she's had sex with him now. Unprotected sex. A couple of times in the last week. I wonder if she got pregnant, they'd be like, wait, is it Helena's or Helly's? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:43:55] It's kind of the same thing, but does it matter if it was conceived in the Orkbo or in the conference room? Also, it's hard for me to believe that they, that Helly and Mark were able to have sex in the conference room without anyone seeing or knowing. Like you'd think they'd be monitored all day long because Helly, sorry, Helena was so worried, um, about going back in there. It was she, that's what she said.

[00:44:25] She didn't want to go back. She was afraid of them. They're animals. Um, you'd think that she would insist that they get monitored the entire time. So I wonder if. Yeah. But that would be boring. Yeah. That's why I'm doing dramatic license. Yeah. All right. Right. I mean, if the writers are thinking that, like we want them to be able to have an intimate moment, but, oh, wouldn't they be monitored all the time? Then everybody would look at the writer that said that and be like, so should we just not do it then?

[00:44:57] But I mean, I just thought actually, I mean, Helena could be like taking, you know, the pill like every morning. I mean, cause she, she would, you know, she had full knowledge that she had sex with Mark. So unless she's just really dumb. Um, yeah, you know, it's true. So, but I mean, she doesn't seem to have any other relationships. So who knows? Well, and she mentioned that was the thing, right?

[00:45:21] So in that whole awesome, uh, I mean, I'm sure you could do a podcast, just reading the transcript of the show out loud. It must be tempting sometimes. But in that whole conversation they had, one of the cool things was when she, you know, she said about her father was the one who invented the procedure. And, uh, you know, she said, basically, you know, he said, you want to take me home to dad already? And she's like, yeah, I think it's finally time. You'd be the first. And I thought that was quite like a, quite a vulnerable, open thing to say. Yeah.

[00:45:51] And I think it was true. I believe in it. I think it was true. Absolutely. So I don't know. It's really hard to feel, I don't feel sympathy for her because she seems like a terrible person, but I do, you know, I have empathy and, uh, pity for her. I think that kind of leads into my next point. It's my turn, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is any Mark and Helly.

[00:46:15] So first Dylan is telling them about the black hole with the elevator that goes down and Helly says that must be where they're keeping her. So I guess they presume Gemma's there. And, uh, so that's interesting. Nobody's ever really said that before that maybe Gemma would be affiliated with that. Right. Right. Um, then Dylan and Mark are kind of hemming and hawing about going and getting the directions from behind the poster.

[00:46:44] And she goes, did everyone sever their balls in the elevator this morning? Best line of the episode. I'm so glad to have the real Helly back in the office. Yeah. That's the difference between her and Helena or one of them. Um, so then Helly and Mark go into the bathroom stall together to chat. And I, I just love that whole scene. It was kind of intimate and Mark blurts out, Helly, we shared vessels. I'm like, what? Lumen speak.

[00:47:13] But how does that even, I don't understand why. We shared vessels. It must be in the handbook somewhere, right? Yeah. So then, but I am glad that he decided because, you know, he was just having a really hard time and just didn't want to face it last time. So he decided to be up front and rip the bandaid off. So I like that. And then I loved, I mean, Brent Lauer is so good. Her reaction. You see, I love the camera work here too. He's going on talking about it, but the focus is on her from behind.

[00:47:43] So you can just sort of feel that there's a lot going on inside her. She's feeling a lot and figuring it out, processing, not sure what to think. But then she lands really quickly on, she's mad at Helena for having used her body and stole this experience that she wanted to have. And she doesn't seem too upset that Mark fell for it. She's just more like, okay, well, that means you wanted to be with me.

[00:48:05] And she's really, really focusing her upset about this on being controlled by Helena, her hatred of that. And I had originally thought that because Heli's such a rebellious person from the start, that on the outside, Helena was used to having all this control. And that's why Heli responded so rebelliously to the whole thing, because they have the same essence.

[00:48:33] But from what we've seen about Helena since then, she seems in a lot of ways pretty controlled too. I mean, she has power, but she has power over the people under her. But there's some really powerful people over her that, especially her father, that seemed to kind of dictate her life. And she's just had this lifetime of indoctrination from her father and his people.

[00:48:58] And Heli woke up in the severance office free of all that and more in tune with her natural rebellious instincts that hadn't been sort of beaten out of her by life. And so it makes me wonder if Heli and Helena ever get reintegrated together. Will Helena rebel against her father at that point with that influence? That would be kind of cool. It would be. I agree. I'd like to see that.

[00:49:27] That would be really interesting. Because with Mark reintegrating with his inner self, they're temperamentally pretty similar. I mean, the thing about that, that would be the most, well, actually, this point sort of gets into that. So Heli decides to ask Mark to sleep with her so she can have that experience. Do you want me to describe what happened? No, no, I don't want her memory. I want my own. Would you like that? And he goes, yeah, I would like that. It was a really sweet moment.

[00:49:57] And then they find a room together. And I thought, this is not going to go well. It's going to be awkward and they won't want to do it. Or something will interrupt. And I was wrong. And I'm really happy to be wrong. And it really subverted my expectations because I felt happy for them. Yeah, it was very, very sweet. That's what I thought. You're right. I love love. You do. It's really nice.

[00:50:25] And so, but then what I was sort of getting to a minute ago, it's complicated because unbeknownst to any Mark, Audi Mark is in the process of integrating his two halves. And I don't at all consider what any Mark did as cheating. But once he reintegrates, suddenly he's in a love triangle. And I think he can't do that again after reintegration or it would be cheating. Right. Yeah.

[00:50:51] I really don't, I can't even picture really how reintegration would work. Yeah. Like I still can't quite grasp how it would work. Or, you know, on one sense, like maybe if I said, like, let's say I was talking to any Mark. Because let's say, I mean, I don't know how it would work either. But I'm just considering, okay, you bring these two halves, these two people, and just merge them into one person where they all have both of each other's memories. And you're sort of the average of each together or something like that.

[00:51:21] But I just realized if I said to any Mark before the reintegration, you know, if you guys reintegrate and you sleep with Heli again, that would be cheating. Then he might just say, fuck you. If Audi Mark sleeps with his wife again, that's cheating on Heli. You know? Yeah. Like why is his experience more valid than mine? So it's just, yeah, it's complicated. I guess it's going to have to be a polyamorous relationship. Right, right.

[00:51:48] I mean, I can see if it was like season one Dylan or something. You know what I mean? That them two could get reintegrated and it might actually help. Yeah. But yeah, as soon as they start having actual feelings and actually experiencing some life and some love, it's, yeah, it's really funny. And that's, I'm like a, I'm a hopeless romantic too. And that's the hard thing about this is you're pulling for everyone and you have these triangles, et cetera, but they're all doomed, right? Yeah.

[00:52:17] I can't see how any of them have a happy ending. You know what I mean? And I, you know, for Mark, especially, you know, I, you know, I love Gemma, but I love Heli. You know, like I just, I, I, it puts us in that. That's what's good about this show is it often puts us as viewers in that situation. We have to wrestle with those moral dilemmas ourselves. And it just makes me think about how, when you go through life, you develop these relationships

[00:52:45] that where responsibility comes with it, loyalty and connection and everything. And so that's what makes it really complicated because the longer you're apart with your other half, the more you're going to be developing your own separate loyalties and things like that, and then you, then you put them back together in one person, then that's going to be a mess to untangle. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad they're right to listen up. Yeah, me too. I'm glad I'm just watching it.

[00:53:16] So anyway, then, um, I was thinking that, oh, I really like to know from Mark how similar and different it was to be with the two versions with Heli and Helena. And then she asked, was it different with me? And he gave the perfect answer. I thought, which was not to answer. Well, he didn't just do that. He literally like pushed her up against the wall and kissed her. So I mean, all the people out there who are in love with Adam Scott already. Pretty suave.

[00:53:44] And then, um, I mean, Karen, do you think he, um, should have said something? No, he, the perfect answer. Pushes her up against the wall and gives her a smooch. Nothing wrong with that. Last little bit here. His nose starts bleeding. And I love that Miss Huang knew exactly how to take care of it, which is so funny. And then she goes to Heli, did you punch him? Uh, I mean, not today. What were you doing when the nose bleeds occurred? That was great.

[00:54:15] Oh, it's so funny. She was refining something. That's one way to put it. Actually, so Miss Huang had the, uh, had the, uh, the quote that you have to say to anyone you'd come across this week. Yeah. Which is, uh, do you want, do you want me to put petroleum jelly in your nostril? Exactly. Ew. No. Yeah. Say that and, um, report back to us. Whoever reports back first gets a Chinese finger trap. I'm serious.

[00:54:46] Okay. Karen. Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I want to talk about, um, the, in my opinion, the saddest of all of the characters this week, which was Mr. Milchik. Mm-hmm. Uh, his tempers for sure need to be rebalanced because he is having, he is having a hard week. He just came off of that disastrous, um, uh, performance review and, uh, he's, he's a little

[00:55:16] snippy with Miss Huang. Um, you know, sort of giving her a little bit of a threat. Um, she, um, she, um, she's a, um, um, she's not going to be able to do that. Um, she's a little bit of a threat.

[00:55:32] Um, um, she's a little bit of a threat. A body double. And it was shot the back of Mr. Milchick. And they think that the body double was the back of Mr. Milchick.

[00:56:01] And then the mirror was actually a cut out on a wall because it's so crystal clear. And then, um, they think that the actor who plays Mr. Milchick was in the cutout slot, that it wasn't in fact a mirror. And he's, yeah, yeah. If you go back and look at it, you could see what they're talking about. It's really neat. Um, so he says to Miss Huang earlier, you, um, must eradicate from your essence, childish folly.

[00:56:31] And so he tells himself that very thing. Um, he looks in the mirror and he says, you must abandon childish things. You must grow up. You must grow up. Grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, which is crazy. And then it also shows him practicing putting paper clips on documents the correct way until his hands are completely shaking for Mr. Milchick. I felt bad for him this episode. Thoughts? Yeah, maybe a little bit.

[00:57:02] I mean, actually that stack of paperwork. I mean, that's a lot of reports. Who is he reporting? I think it was just, I think it was just practice. I think it was a lot of hot nonsense that he was just practicing putting, uh, a bazillion, uh, paper clips on. And until. That seems like the same kind of masochistic cult behavior that like Cobell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He very much seemed like, yeah.

[00:57:26] Like it's clear that, that, that performance review very much got to him. He took it very seriously. He, it's like the opposite of what he wants. His whole reason for being is to be the perfect Lumen employee or something, you know? And that. Yeah. He, he, yeah. So his whole, like he, he's going to rectify that and he's shaken by it.

[00:57:53] And when he calls her in and says, I feel I should remind you, can I graduate from this fellowship until I've deemed you wintertime material? This means using your time. Well, focusing on your own duties and eradicating from your essence, childish folly. I was wondering what, what is it that, I mean, he's asserting his power and leverage over her. Like you said, Karen, it's a threat, but why is it?

[00:58:20] Because I'm guessing it's because he suspects that it was her anonymous complaints that showed up in his performance review. Right? For sure. Yeah. But also, I mean, he says childish folly and we've seen her play little games at her desk. I wonder if, or if he's just talking about the performance review. I don't know. But on the severance wiki, it says the winter tide fellowship is a prestigious scholarship

[00:58:47] awarded by Lumen Industries to the Myrtle Egan School for Girls students who excel academically and embody the nine core principles. Apparently, um, Cobell was a winter tide fellow. She, she went there. And, um, anyway, then I like that he told Ms. Huang to eradicate her from her essence, childish folly. And then he was saying the same thing to himself in the mirror.

[00:59:14] It was like he was projecting his upset onto her for a minute. But then it reminded me how in cults and maybe in corporations to some degree, people internalize the ideals and expectations of the leader and then police themselves. That's how cults can be so big because these people are just internalizing all of that. And, and I think, yeah, he's just, um, so self critical here and he's so ashamed and so intense about it.

[00:59:43] And I loved how he said, you must abandon childish folly. And then I think he thought, oh, wait, the first thing in my performance review is that I use too many big words. So he changed it to, you must grow up, shorter, grow up and then just grow. Like I'm going to simplify, simplify, simplify. Oh, so it makes me wonder if he'll be using less big words from now on. I would imagine so if he wants to pass his next performance review. Yeah.

[01:00:12] It depends if he wants another Emmy. And he should get one by the way for this whole thing. I mean, I just felt like it was tragic, right? I wanted him to break free of Lumen's idiocy and not descend further into it. Uh, but it is a good story. And, and Trammell Tillman was so like, he looked like he was about ready to start crying. Yeah. And given how strongly we all felt about him, that's quite the turnaround, um, for us to feel that way for him.

[01:00:38] Um, you know, I mean, I, I literally hated him, but now I'm actually feeling sympathy. And the way they, I mean, we don't know what his, uh, you know, his feedback was like from inside the company and season one and stuff. We just saw him swanning around being awesome. Um, but now to see him getting this, this feedback and these, these, just these, these acts from higher up that just kind of undercut him, you know, the, uh, the paintings, the, even like,

[01:01:08] you know, and I'm, I'm a white man. I don't, I'm not going to talk about this much, but like, you know, the whole thing of, you know, black, black men, when they're told they're well-spoken, you know, as like a very, very loaded compliment, you know, and it just, it kind of speaks to that a little bit. And he just, yeah, I don't know. I mean, to us, because this is all we've seen, it seems like he's suddenly under so much more scrutiny and so much more responsibility, but yeah.

[01:01:40] Yeah. And I mean, there, I think there's a lot of potential for him to be even more of a monster than he has been after this. And now we can see that all this pressure plays a big part in why, but I also think that anyone who does anything bad, pretty much, you could look at what led up to it and you'd have more understanding for them, but that can't excuse all the bad things that people do.

[01:02:06] You know, there has to be consequences for bad behavior, even if someone had abuse in their life or whatever it was. Right. Yeah. It comes down to choice. I guess. I mean, otherwise we're just like, oh, whatever. If, if anyone killed someone, they probably had a mean father. So it's fine. You know what I mean? Like you can't just say that with people. No, definitely. I mean, actually I was thinking a second ago when we were talking, um, when you were talking

[01:02:33] about Hellie, um, she, there was a huge point of her character taking charge of her own experience. Right. And they, they said that in, um, I think it was, uh, Dan Erickson and, uh, in one of the behind the scenes that they, they were talking about how she, you know, she was taking charge of her own experience and what she wanted. And, you know, we saw her in the hallway trying to process it all.

[01:03:01] And she was sat on the floor, hugging her knees to her chest, you know, the classic kind of like survivor's posture. And she makes this decision to like stand up and then, you know, just walk and deal with the situation. Um, and yeah, I think that, that just shows you in terms of like how much autonomy to these inies and outies have, you know, it, to me, it shows you that, you know, it, it is the

[01:03:27] choice at the end of the day, whether you are shaped by what happens to you or whether you decide to draw under a line under it and then move on. Um, that's something I've, I've found in my, my own life. Like it's one of my big philosophies is, you know, everything's a decision. Everything's like, you know, under your control and you can choose to kind of, you know, strike for what you want or just kind of use excuses of what's happened to you.

[01:03:54] So yeah, that's what I was feeling with Milchek. He could go either way, but I mean, I, I still, I hope I, I want him to be, uh, to do to be a good guy. And I think he also has that potential too. I said he had the potential to do even worse things than before, but I think we could see him totally turn around in the series still. And I think that'd be a great story. He tried to implement nice. Yeah, that's true.

[01:04:25] Nice changes. I think that's going to change now. We'll see. Yeah. I mean, I think when he's saying grow up, he's like, don't, don't use words that are too big anymore. Put those paper clips on the right way. And most of all, don't treat the innies as real people. Cause that was like the third and biggest thing in his, you know, performance review. But we'll see. Yeah. And he was, he was sort of a bully with Mark and the elevator.

[01:04:54] Um, last episode or maybe the, the one before that. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I think that's, yeah. I mean, that seems to be where he's headed to me. He's like, I'm not going to make the mistakes I made at the beginning of season two. Exactly that way, but you know, so is there anything else you guys wanted to talk about? Let's see. So one thing I wanted to talk about was, um, when, uh, Miss Wong is, you know, offering

[01:05:24] to put petroleum jelly up his nostrils. Um, she, she mentions, uh, if he has a deviated septum and he says, I don't know what that is, which is, uh, which is hilarious, but it does. I I've thought about this over and over during the show. Um, they have a fine line to tread. The people who make the show in how much do the innies actually know about, you know, the outside world about life in general, you get like little comments, like that's what houses look like. Right.

[01:05:52] Or, you know, they go, they're finally outside and he, you know, Dylan's like, I knew there was no ceiling, but wow. You know, you know, but they, they have to be really careful. Cause I remember when I first started rewatching this along with the podcast, um, you know, a few months ago in episode two, um, they're talking about the fact that there's a code scanner in the elevator and they're talking about how you can't sneak any codes through. And Haley actually says like, how good are the scanners? Like, what if you wrote it all funky?

[01:06:21] Like one of those robot tests. And I was like, how the hell does she know what a robot test is? Right. And luckily they steer clear of those things a lot. Like, cause it gets into some really kind of weird questions about how much do they know? Like obviously Dylan knows what eels are. I mean, I think of it like, kind of like, well, I don't know. I have a great understanding of this, but like Alzheimer's where Alzheimer's people can

[01:06:48] forget a lot of things that they went through or experienced, but they still know how to speak English. That's another one that, that I bring up a lot with this series. They know how to speak English. You know, they know how to walk. So it doesn't surprise me. I mean, uh, they really made a point in the very first episode actually of sort of covering this because of the five questions, the correct answers were, I think four of them to be unknown. You know, who are you? I, uh, I don't know. Okay. Right.

[01:07:18] And then it was like, what, uh, something about a state or something. And she named a state and he's like, okay, good answer. So it just made it really clear that they know general things about the world, but they just don't have any memory of their own lives. Right. Right. Even though they know it, it's sort of like how we know how to walk, but we don't remember learning how to walk. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's the muscle memory when like, you know, Irving knows how to drive a car, et cetera. Right. Yeah. I think I just. Or we know words.

[01:07:47] We don't remember learning the words we're using right now. Right. Yeah. What? Just kidding. All right. Yeah. Actually, I had one other point. Um, and it is about, uh, overlapping movie and TV universes. Um, so as soon as, um, we were at the ham dinner and as soon as Fields appears, I was like, Oh my gosh, it's Walter Bishop from Fringe. And I'm sure like, you know, half the other people were like, Oh my God, there's Denethor from Lord of the Rings. Wow.

[01:08:17] I just thought, Oh, I feel like I know him from somewhere, but I don't remember where. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Like when, uh, when Christopher Walken tells him, like maybe he's had enough wine, he pulls his face and I expected him to just suddenly say like, can you sing master Hobbit? But he, uh, I just, I have a thing. It just comes up a lot. Like when I'm watching some TV show or, uh, or movie and it overlaps in some way with something

[01:08:44] else I love, whether it's an actor or it's like some piece of music or whatever, I just feel like somehow it infuses what I'm watching and it deepens it somehow. And I just enjoyed the thing even more. Like it's like this overlapping, like Venn diagram of all the things I love. And when they can cross over, it just gets even better somehow. Um, actually eternal sunshine. You mentioned earlier when I first started watching my episode one, the outie scenes when

[01:09:12] it's just like Mark looking depressed, looking out of rainy windows or reflections. I think I'd watched eternal sunshine the night before and it looked really similar. The cinematography. I was like, Oh my God, this is great. And in my head, I'm like, I bet it was an influence on them. I mean, it really could have been, but even if not like subconsciously, my brain was like, Oh yeah, I think I like severance even more now because this bit reminded me of eternal sunshine in some way. So I think that happens to me like a lot.

[01:09:40] And I was just wondering if that ever happens to you. I don't know if I'd consciously made that connection until the, um, Dylan and Gretchen storyline this episode. I may have, but I don't remember. The cinematography is so good. The levels of everything they're doing is just the highest out there. It's so good. Yeah, for sure. Especially this episode.

[01:10:05] It was like in a lot of the scenes, it was just pitch black apart from maybe a flame in the background or, and it was just their faces lit like paintings. It was absolutely incredible. Yeah. Yeah. They've been doing a lot of that. A lot of the black background and, um, framing people in this black background is beautiful. Yeah. So I had a point to talk about Audi Mark.

[01:10:33] Uh, we've talked already about the part where Helena approached him in the restaurant, but I just, I did want to mention. Um, so when we open on him, he's horrified that he had just haven't had this vision of his wife, Gemma as Ms. Casey. And she's like, why is she rattling off facts? What are they doing? And I'm like, yeah, that would be, uh, like, I, I, I wonder if they've considered going to

[01:11:00] the authorities cause they know that this company has his wife trapped, but they never talk about it. And I assume that's just because Lumen's too powerful or something, but I don't know, you know, you like, you can't trap a woman inside a company. Yeah. Um, and then we see that one amazing scene of him flitting back and forth between his selves, between office and home.

[01:11:28] And the shape, I was like, it's interesting how the shapes in both places align, like the couch overlaps exactly with the office furniture. But then I did a step through a frame by frame and he was seeing his home furniture, his couches table and his aquarium in the office. So you just can't really be sure what's in his head and what's real, you know, which is cool. And just visually cool. No, definitely. Have you guys talked about the fish tank before? The fish in the fish tank?

[01:11:57] I think the red and the blue betas. Yeah. How they would like kill each other if you removed the barrier. Exactly. Right. Which I, this is what I'm worried about with the reintegration metaphor for reintegration. Yes. Yes. Good point. Um, and then a little sad fish after his nosebleed in the office, he's suddenly back with Raghabi and she goes, do you remember a hallway, a black hallway? And I don't, I don't think we've heard her talk about that before.

[01:12:28] Right. So everything's converging on this black hallway. And I wonder if she also thinks that Gemma is there. That's what I suspect. I think you're right. Well, she seems to, yeah, she seems to definitely think Gemma's there. And this makes me, we were wondering who Irving has been on the phone, on the payphone with, and we were wondering if it was Rigabi. And I mean, that would make sense because for her to specifically mention the black hallway. Good point. Yeah. And he's been literally working on trying to filter that down to his innie for so long.

[01:12:57] Um, you know, we will see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Um, and then, um, Mark. So he has that whole experience with Helena and the Chinese restaurant. He goes back, I'm ready to do this procedure. And then, um, we get this really beautiful scene of her cutting into his brain. Wasn't that nice? Beautiful. Really lovely. The symmetry was amazing.

[01:13:23] Uh, and then he starts remembering having sex with Heli and he's like, what the fuck? Why was I sleeping with Helena Egan? I think that's what he's thinking. Like, damn. Uh, and then, um, yeah, just the whole thing about keep your head still. And then he immediately runs upstairs and falls on the floor. She should say to him, you know what? Go run upstairs. Cause I'm sure he would just then stay still. Yeah. Right.

[01:13:52] Whatever you do, don't lay here still. Yeah. Oh, and he goes, what is that smell? Which makes me think of a stroke. Uh huh. Right. Oh geez. Yeah. It's all not good. Especially when we know what happened to Petey. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but we did get to see Devin for a second, which is always good. And do you know, did you listen to what Devin was telling him? That she wanted to try? Yeah. The birthing cabins. Oh, what was she saying? Yes.

[01:14:22] To go there. Oh yeah. She, he was kind of ranting, uh, a little, a little manic. And she said, I had this idea about, about the birthing cabins. Yes. And then she's like, wait, what is happening? Why do you look like that? Right. And, um, so I have the feeling that we'll see something in the future. Yeah. And, and I'll, I'll say without spoiling too much, I can't wait. Oh my God. Seriously. So, uh, any notes?

[01:14:53] Uh, yeah. Just one, the one thing, um, if you go to the severance wiki page, you can find, uh, Irving's footlocker and they, um, it's very nice. They put the, the, um, uh, somebody took the time to sort of go through and type out everything that was on the page of past severed employees. And the thing is, that's delightful is they use the names of the people who work on the show.

[01:15:20] So, um, you can see, I mean, obviously they have like, you can find, um, Irving and Dylan and Mark on the page, but you could also find like the gaffer. Uh, you can find, um, the person who does costuming. It's delightful. That's fun. It is just a fun little detail, um, and a way to sort of call out the, um, the crew. I love that. Me too. I definitely.

[01:15:49] What about you, Damien? Um, yeah, no, one more point. So this is just, uh, I can't keep saying like, thank you to you guys every week and telling you what a great job you always do. Oh no, you can. But, um, I can, yeah. But no, so I love the fact that you cover these, um, these more genre shows, right? That they're, they're usually through some kind of filter, whether it's, you know, zombie or sci-fi or, you know, whatever. And I've always found, I've analyzed this over the years.

[01:16:17] I'm a huge film buff if you haven't, you know, realized that. But I, I always, I, I watch things. Firstly, I watch them emotionally and then intellectually, and then eventually I can like analyze them. But really things just hit me emotionally first. And a lot of my favorite films, um, you know, I would describe them as love stories or like really affecting me emotionally, but they're sci-fi movies. You know, it's like interstellar. It's like, you know, eternal sunshine.

[01:16:45] And I just feel like there's something about the removing you from the real world through the lens of like a, you know, zombie story or a, or a sci-fi story that for me, it lets me really focus in and examine those things even better. So like I could watch a contemporary drama and they're fine. They're worthy. They're good. They're, you know, they're fine. But like all my favorite films are through this filter.

[01:17:15] It seems to somehow distill it and I can, you know, it's almost like it gives me the distance to safely kind of like, you know, explore some of these themes. So, uh, I assume that's the same for you guys. Um, but I just wanted to ask. Yes, I think you hit on exactly. I think that is a really, um, smart point. And I think you hit on what we pick and choose, at least what I pick and choose.

[01:17:40] Um, it, the fact that it's, uh, either zombie or it's sci-fi or it's science future like this or, um, yeah, I think that if, yeah. Um, I don't know that we've ever done anything straight up drama in podcastica. Jason, have we?

[01:18:06] I have, um, well, maybe this wouldn't count, but when you were talking about that, it made me think, is that true for me? And the first thing that popped into my head is actually the show, maybe the one show that I've covered that I just felt the most emotionally connected to. And that's Cobra Kai. Oh, yeah.

[01:18:32] And it, it just, I know people who, especially if you haven't seen it, you're just like, what? Or whatever. But it just really, really hit me hard. And, um, there's so much thought that goes into that show. And so we definitely approached it with like talking out all the, um, the symmetry and the role reversal and the themes and everything. But it just also hits so hard emotionally sometimes.

[01:19:01] Uh, so that sort of a counter example, I guess another one is White Lotus. Yeah. That, and that's another one of my favorite shows to cover too. I haven't seen that yet, actually. So, I mean, yeah, I can appreciate that for sure. There must be a bunch if I actually sit and think about it, but yeah, on the whole though. Yeah. On the whole, you're right. It is mostly genre stuff, but I, I need to, I need it to be, um, smart and I, and really

[01:19:27] I, what, uh, attracts me the most is when I feel like the writers have a good sense of what people are really like psychologically. And they give me a good variation of that. You know, if people act like I think real people act, especially when the characters are flawed because I think that's real, then I am pulled right in. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we've, we've heightened situations. It's just a really great way. Yeah. Pluribus. True.

[01:19:55] We just did, we just did a whole pluribus and that's just, you know, in, in theory, it's an insane thing, but you soon get used to the, you know, the context you're in and it's just absolutely fascinating watching someone deal with that, you know? Yeah. That's right. Cause like with walking dead, the thing about that is you're seeing what people are really made of because they're in high stress situations constantly and it's life and death. So you're really seeing, um, what they're all about, what likes they would go to and things

[01:20:25] that you would never get to see if they were just working in an office or something. Exactly. Exactly. Unless you got a really particularly intense person. I don't know. Well, exactly. Okay. My notes. Thank you for asking that, by the way, that was really fun. And by the way, I mean, I was going to say this for the end, but we're loving having you involved with all this too, by the way, we love your calls and really fun and passionate and interesting.

[01:20:54] So that means a lot. Thank you. Um, okay. Some quick notes, uh, per, I was just sort of looking through the wiki and you know, we get their first names and initials, Irving B, Mark S, Dylan G, Hellie R. Do you know the last names? I'll give you an easy one first. Mark S. Scout. Okay. How about Dylan George? Probably don't know, right? Cause they never talk about it.

[01:21:22] According to the wiki is George, Dylan George. Oh yeah. Didn't I write these down somewhere at the top of my list? Irving. Irving B is Irving Bailiff. Oh yeah. That's on his Audi's list of employees. I noticed. Or there's an Irving Bailiff that's also an Irving B, but I presumed that was him. Yeah. And then Hellie R is listed in the wiki as Helly Riggs. So I guess they maybe just made up a name for her. Wow. Cause it's really Helen Egan. Yeah.

[01:21:52] I wonder why they, they bothered even. Right. Funny. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's her middle name or something. Next. Um, some new information we learned about Lumen in the severance procedure in this episode is Helena said her father invented the severance procedure. At least I think that's new. I don't remember hearing that before. Maybe. I mean, she talked about him bringing home that very first chip. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Okay. I think. Yeah.

[01:22:20] So apparently he invented it or took credit for it. Yes. And we learned that the first severed office opened 12 years ago, which actually is further ago than I would have thought. Seemed like it was newer. And, uh, yeah, we already have the thing to say to someone and report back to us. Would you like me to put petroleum jelly in your nostrils? The answer should be always no.

[01:22:48] Be sure to have a tube ready just in case they say yes.

[01:23:22] All right. Let's move into our listener feedback experience. Our first listener is Mo Favo who writes, enjoyed your brief discussion of Edmund Fitzgerald. Here is a great article about a recent book that better explain the accident. If you get a chance to listen to the author talk about his research, it is fascinating, especially when he spoke with Gordon Lightfoot and his band. I think the New York Times Book Review podcast has that interview.

[01:23:51] And, um, apparently, uh, we will put the link in the show notes. Notes. That was from the music that was playing during something that I've completely forgotten. Do you remember? Yeah, that was the dentist at the cold open of the last episode. He, he was whistling, um, the tune, um, the Gordon Lightfoot song. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Optics and design. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:17] He's, he's just, you never see the dentist's face, but he's whistling the tune. Oh, yeah. Whatever happened to that dentist? I wonder if we'll ever find out. Maybe. He's being chopped up downstairs. Cheers. Jennifer McGinley says, greetings, Jason and Karen from all the way over in Bonnie, Scotland. I treated myself to a new iPad and it came with three months of free Apple TV, which has severance. So finally get to watch it all. Well, but y'all probably be finished by the time I catch up.

[01:24:46] Well, when we get to season three in two and a half years or whenever you can join us then. She said, I just wanted to drop by and let you know that were it not for your podcast, I would have given up on this show. I was not enjoying it all at the start. I wanted to bin it after the first two episodes and begin complaining to my pal that severance was shite. I decided to give it one last chance was E3 episode three.

[01:25:07] That was only out of respect for Adam Scott, who, along with his stepbrothers co-stars, provided me with what I believe to be the funniest 90 seconds in cinematic history. Yes, the sweet child of mine sing along. I need to watch that again. I haven't seen it in a long time. So off I go. Not looking forward to episode three. And what do you know? Shit. Nah, man. I'm out of here. I've only have three months of free Apple TV, so I can't be wasting it on this boring drivel that makes no sense. And that's all she wrote. Weird. No, I'm just kidding.

[01:25:35] She says, the only thing I liked about the show was Hellie's constant attempts to send her outie messages, which mark saving her from herself each time. Then I remember that House Podcastica are podcasting on the show, so I listened in the hopes of understanding some more of your analysis. I didn't. In fact, hearing you both talking about all the funny lines made me feel even worse. I have a good sense of humor. Why am I not laughing out loud? Maybe it isn't for me.

[01:26:03] But Adam Scott and his $1,200 a week for voice lessons. I need to love the show. Someone in the listener feedback started talking about not really getting the show until near the end of season one. Finding it slow and confusing. Then loving it. Making his second watch all the sweeter with the knowledge tucked away in your brain. And you both spoke about feeling similar. So I tell myself, trust the House Podcastica is given to the host and listeners. Let yourself go. Eek! So glad I did. Episode four was epic.

[01:26:31] I was glued to the screen and let it run on to episode five. I had to know what happened to Hellie in the elevator. I knew what she was up to when she strolled off with the cord. Then when she picked up that bin to stand on, I thought my heart would pop out of my chest. What a turnaround. Interestingly, as you nerds probably know, episode four has... This is a Scottish name. Oif? McArdle. Takeover directorial duties from Ben Stiller. Hmm. Coincidence?

[01:26:59] It can't be that, as Ben Stiller has provided me with what I believe to be the funniest 89 minutes in cinematic history, Zoolander. Oh, so good. Yeah. Of course, I have a few mumps, bumps, and groans, such as drilling into an embalmed head at a funeral. Really? Never been to an American funeral, of course. But yeah, we do that all the time over here. Yeah. Oh, totally. It's standard. But over here, who's got the drill this time? But over here, that body is front and center stage, the whole of the service.

[01:27:28] Guess nobody's getting near it with an electric drill. At this stage in the game, the coffins are laid down and cemented shut, too. But we don't get a free bar offering red or white wine at our funerals either. So, okay, cultural differences. Right. I'll shut up now. I'd like to catch you up. But if not, hearing my words being read out will make for a nice surprise on a future podcast. Thank you for saving me for myself, much like Mark's many attempts to save Helly when he did. Actually, no best.

[01:27:58] You're a loyal subject, Jennifer McGilley. Thanks, Jennifer. Thanks, Jennifer. I hope you still keep liking it and that you catch up and you can write in again. Oh, God. I was just thinking about how much I freaking love Scotland. Yes. So good. How do you give Scotland my love? I had a drink with Jennifer there. Wait, you did too, right? Yeah. She was at the table with us. She was at the table when we were playing bar trivia in Glasgow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice.

[01:28:28] Yeah. Yeah, she's great. Okay. Here is a call from Sam from another part of the world. Hi, Jason and Karen. It's Sam from Queensland, Australia. Just wanted to jump on and say thank you guys so much for your severance coverage. Um, this is not specific to any episode. It's just me saying thank you. I'm really enjoying it. I love it. I love you guys. I love your, um, your banter. I love your takes on everything.

[01:28:57] And yeah, I hope I don't want it to end because I know that we're getting there, but that's all. Okay. Love you guys. Bye. Aw, it won't end. Don't worry. It's going to be years before season three comes out. So we'll be doing this again. By the way, that was the perfect call. 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. Thank you, Sam. We all go on for fucking long. Is that what you're saying?

[01:29:22] Uh, we, if everybody calls in and says that I'm not going to play them all, that'd be too much, but thank you so much, Sam. I have a message from Rachel, right? It says, uh, you're fucking mall. You're fucking mall. Oh, it's like 20 times in a row. No. Okay. Weird. Whoa, whoa, whoa, guys. I was assuming the affection index was a scale of like three to 77, not some silly round numbers like zero to a hundred.

[01:29:51] So my affection for you being in the high sixties is actually super high. Now that we've cleared that up. We shared vessels. What? Mark. That was so funny and odd. I had to rewind it because I had to be sure I heard him correctly. He's so adorably clueless in these conversations with Ellie, bro. She wants to have sex with you too. It was a very sweet sex scene though.

[01:30:18] Except I was a little distracted by the potential for suffocation under a sheet of plastic. Right. But then damn, when he backs her up against the wall to kiss her in the hallway, that was hot. Any mark is growing up. Yeah. He's, you know, he's had sex twice now. Come on. I mean that I was kind of thinking along the same lines of what we were talking about earlier when he was putting the moves on her under the table and they were putting the moves on each other, but they kind of knew what to do. Right. And they've never had a conscious experience of that before.

[01:30:49] Muscle memory. Yeah. He was leading the way. You know, he'd had sex. He knew what to do. Right. He was experienced. I guess he did have, yeah, that experience once before. Yeah. Anyway. So now Gretchen is essentially cheating on an outie Dylan with any Dylan. I'm happy for any Dylan, but find it a little too icky on Gretchen's part. Why not just tell outie Dylan about his any? She must be enjoying spending time with such an unjaded, optimistic and smitten version of her husband.

[01:31:18] This episode brings to mind something that my husband and I talk about pretty frequently. People are not fungible cogs like Lumen and every other corporation, government and powerful entity would like you to believe. You can't boil humanity down to statistics and predict every outcome. Lumen believes they created work-to-be automatons, but surprise, motherfuckers. The innies are conscious humans with free will, unpredictable thoughts, the need to love and be loved, and the desire to be free and screw.

[01:31:47] Sorry, screw the man. I think it's both. Praise Keir. Okay. So what the hell? Is outie Bert a bad guy? Did he invite Irving over just so Mr. Drummond could go to his apartment and look for his stuff? It seems that way. And so he could get close to Irving to manipulate him? Obviously, Bert is hiding something about his history with Lumen. He was clearly working for Lumen well before he was severed.

[01:32:13] So is this whole story about being guided to Lumen's door by Jesus a total lie? I mean, if I'm being honest, it makes no sense at all. The whole foundation of Christianity is that Christ died for our sins. So just because you're a scoundrel doesn't mean you can't go to heaven. God forgives any amount of scoundrel if we repent and simply ask him for it. So I remember watching that scene the first time. Somebody should have said that to Bert. You know, you can just ask forgiveness.

[01:32:43] Quicker and easier, right? I'm an atheist. I have no idea. Anyway, so I remember watching that scene the first time. And my husband and I looked at each other like, what the hell is he talking about? This makes no sense. Like everything else, it's a lie. He watches Irving leave and his face turns so cold. What the hell is going on? Don't know. And what the fuck is hell are they doing? Is she fully in love with Mark and just wants another moment with him to see if she can spark a memory or if they have any outie chemistry?

[01:33:13] No, there's manipulation going on. It was all fun and flirty games until I know you've already been through so much with losing your wife and all. Hannah, how dare she? She literally just finished telling Mark that she knows everything that goes on because she's basically the head of the company. And then she toys with him like this. So he snaps out of it and realizes this woman likely knows exactly who his wife is and where she is and what they're doing to her. In fact, she's responsible for all of it.

[01:33:41] I remember Drummond heard him. Maybe that was it. Maybe she was trying to pretend like she didn't know so she wouldn't be implicated. Maybe. But he was like, that actually did implicate you because you totally should know her name. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out why she did that. Yeah. And remember, Drummond heard him talking to Devin in the diner that one time, that one morning after the OTC, about the possibility of Gemma being alive.

[01:34:05] So she knows that that's at least an idea in his head, which is why she actually wants to know details about his OTC experience. Oh, my God. It's so convoluted and fucked up. There is a word cloud with Milchik's most frequently used words from the last quarter. I need to see that word cloud. I think he's trying to erase any sign of softness or humanity we've seen in him this season.

[01:34:30] Punishing himself and forcing himself to abandon any bit of individuality to comply with his idiotic performance review. Come on, man. He could learn a thing or two from the innies. The funniest brief scene this week was Mrs. Wong helping Mark with his nosebleed. What were you doing when the nosebleed occurred? We were refining something. Would you like me to put petroleum jelly in your nostrils? Cheerily, um, no, thanks. This sounded a lot like Ben Wyatt to me.

[01:35:00] Oh, totally. From Parks and Rec. The reintegration is getting real. Looking forward to listening to your breakdown of it all. They do such an amazing job of making us viewers feel and understand what it's like for Mark. It's so distressing. All right. Thank you again for having me on a couple of weeks ago. It was such a blast hanging out in this world with you both. All right, kids. Please don't eradicate all childish folly from your essences. I like you just the way you are. Aw, we like you too.

[01:35:30] Just the way you are. She mentioned Parks and Recs and you had mentioned Widow's Bay. Did you know that the showrunner of Widow's Bay used to be a writer on Parks and Rec? No. Oh, wow. Maybe that's why you love it. One reason why you love it so much. And I'm all caught up and I freaking love it too. And I can't wait. There might be a new episode out today. Tonight. Yeah. Tonight, tonight, tonight, tonight. But unfortunately, David's working late. So we do it till tomorrow. So you're going to have to watch it without him. Oh, well.

[01:36:02] Everybody, yeah, we both recommend that show. It does a fantastic job of being a comedy and a horror in a way that I haven't really seen before. And I think it's really good. It's great. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. Damien, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure to talk to you. It's great.

[01:36:31] Thanks, Damien. So fun. How do you say this? Chick-i? Chick-i? Chick-i Bardo? Chick-i Bardo. Chick-i? I'll just say it like that. Let's just say Chick-i Bardo. Okay. Next episode, Severance Season 2, Episode 7, Chick-i Bardo, which is probably not how do you say that, but that's how I'm saying it. It's really good. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can send it to waffleparty at podcastica.com.

[01:36:58] Or you can leave comments on our Discord or our Facebook group where you can also chat with us and other listeners about Severance or whatever else you're watching. Could be Widow's Bay, whatever else. Links in the show notes for that. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. And remember, people are not fungible cogs.

[01:37:38] We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026. Enter How To, the longstanding advice show and Ambie Award-nominated Best Personal Growth podcast that's back with new episodes and a new host. Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week, I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert. You know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about.

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[01:38:31] And You Might Be Right cements the idea that constructive disagreement can lead to real problem solving. This season, we're going to dig into the role of the National Guard, AI regulation, and a lot more. New episodes drop every other week. Follow You Might Be Right wherever you get your podcasts.