Severance S2E7 "Chikhai Bardo"

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[00:01:22] Hm? Ah! Hm. Oh! What do you, uh, got there? Hm? Sorry, what do you, what do you got there? Uh, themes of religious conversion in Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich. Oh my god, spoiler alert, please. What about you? Are you reading? Me? Uh, well… Oh, yeah, this is a real treat. All quiet on the western blunt.

[00:01:52] drug use by enlisted soldiers during World War I. Now stop. No, that's what it is. Kids are genius. You should flunk every other child. I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry, who are you? Chamo. Uh, oh. Bat. All right. Mark. Nice to meet you, Mark. You too.

[00:02:31] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Kara. And this is Wax Episodic. This episode, we're covering Severance Season 2, Episode 7, Chikai Bardo. Chikai Bardo. That's such a weird name. It is. It is. It is. And this episode, a lot of people, I've been reading and watching a lot of analysis of this episode, and you can go really, really deep in this episode. You can talk.

[00:03:01] And we're going to. No, I'm just kidding. I mean, people have been analyzing the Russian literature that was referenced and the various German names and all the bardos, what all the bardos mean. Go ahead and get your PhD in this episode because you could. Right. We'll go deep. We'll give you a little slice of that. We'll give you a slice. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Let's get into it. I'll do the plot summary. It says,

[00:03:30] In flashbacks, Mark and Gemma meet at a blood drive at the college where they both teach. The two go on to have a loving marriage, which is eventually marred by difficulties conceiving a child. After a miscarriage, Gemma and Mark visit a fertility clinic run by Lumen. In the present, Gemma lives on the testing floor at Lumen, where every day she visits multiple rooms, which share the names of MDR files that awaken a separate innie forced to endure a certain unpleasant experience, overseen by Dr. Maurer.

[00:03:59] After she leaves the rooms, Maurer interviews her about her memories and emotions from the experiences. Meanwhile, as Mark lies unconscious, Rugabi confirms to Devin that Gemma is alive and tells her Mark is voluntarily reintegrating. Rugabi leaves when Devin suggests calling Kovel for help. On the testing floor, when Gemma tells Maurer she wants to leave, he lies by saying that Mark remarried and had a child. Gemma knocks Maurer unconscious and steals his key card.

[00:04:27] She attempts to escape via the elevator to the severed floor, but reverts to Miss Casey and Milchick redirects her back down the elevator. Mark awakens with Devin beside him, still recalling memories of Gemma. What did you think? I mean, there's so much. I mean, we always say there's so much in the episode, but this one particularly. Oh, I loved it. I love how this season, the episodes, the first three, if I recall, were sort of similar, but

[00:04:55] then they did that retreat. Actually, I don't remember which episode that was. But anyway, they'll just throw out these episodes that are so different than anything we've seen in Severance before. And this was one of those. It just felt so much different for the most part. And I know we have one coming up too that neither you or I liked, but we're curious to revisit. I may like it more when I revisit it.

[00:05:20] But anyway, I just like how it was so different and it was a tragic love story, beautifully done. I just thought it was so good to see you get such a full sense of their life together, Mark and Gemma, in such a short amount of time. And that was wonderful. And it was also really disturbing in ways, of course, and confusing as hell. Like it felt like it answered a lot, but then I have so many more questions and it was alarming

[00:05:49] and it was just great. I loved it. What about you? Yeah, I really loved it too. All of that is true for me as well. And also, it was hard to watch any Gemma get tested on and tortured. That was hard. It's disturbing. And Audi Gemma have a miscarriage. Like it's tragic. And have to suffer through infertility and how hard that was on her and Mark. Yeah, that was all. So it was all the things.

[00:06:17] It was incredibly traumatic and tragic. And also, we got to see a really beautiful love story, which was lovely. Yeah. And I mean, it's hard to watch people that you like or anyone really go through hard situations like this. But that's every single show we watch, you know, to one degree or another. It's about the drama, but it's really upsetting.

[00:06:46] And it makes me... After this episode, I really felt a yearning for this show to have some kind of a happy ending. Like with these kinds of shows we watch, you often hear the phrase, if you think this has a happy ending, you're not paying attention. And I don't know if I think this is one of those shows. Do you? No. No. I don't think it necessarily is either.

[00:07:13] Although, there's this love triangle with Mark and Heli and Gemma. And I don't see how that can be resolved in a way where everyone's happy unless they resort to polyamory. Which never works. So, I don't know if it works. But anyway. Isn't polyamory if you have an Audi married to one woman and an innie married to another? I don't know. Do you all live in the same house? I just don't... Well, okay.

[00:07:41] I don't think there's going to be a happy ending. I'm picturing Matt now. Audi Mark has his half of the house. Yeah. And then whenever he goes into the other half, he reverts. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that'd be weird. Creepy. Maybe that'll be the ending. I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like that. Okay. What do you want to talk about first? All right. I want to talk about the look of it. Because it was such an interesting and unique... Within the universe of Severance.

[00:08:10] Severance is a beautiful... A beautifully filmed show. Within the universe of this beautifully filmed show, this was... Took it up to a whole new level. Which makes sense. Which is saying something. Because it's one of the most beautifully filmed shows, I would say. Ever. Yeah. Exactly. There's a few others, but it's top tier. I mean... And there's a reason why, probably, this show took it up another notch for this episode.

[00:08:39] And that's because the show's cinematographer, whose name is Jessica Lee Gagne, forgive me if I got her name wrong, is the director of this episode. So she's the show's cinematographer, and this was the first episode that she's actually directed. And... Of any show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's so many things about it that I loved. I loved... Let me just say about her before we move on. Yeah, please. She... She... Yeah.

[00:09:06] As you said, she's a cinematographer on Severance, and I think she's the main person behind at least a certain aspect of the look of the show. The cinematographic look of the show is her... It's... She's the main force behind that, and she won an Emmy for it. And so, yeah, now she got to direct one, and she really put her all into it, I would say. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:09:34] And it had some super cool things that were unique. The transitions between scenes. She leaned into the innie and the outie, and the integration between the innies and the outies, and what Mark is kind of going through, sort of trying to integrate. And there was a lot of moments where outie Mark would sort of turn into innie Mark in this really elegant way.

[00:10:01] And it reminded me a lot of the opening sequence, the opening credits, how things kind of fall fall into each other, and sort of morph into each other in that interesting way. She did some of that in the episode. It was just really, really beautiful. And the sets were incredible.

[00:10:26] The Christmas thank you card room looked amazing with the crazy 3D printed stuff, which was insane. We now know that all that's been 3D printed by O&D, and there's some bananas stuff in there. I didn't think about that, but yeah. Yeah. There was, I mean, of course she was writing the thank you for the grouter, or the, it wasn't a grouter, it was a de-grouter. Technically, it's a de-grouter.

[00:10:52] Now we know, yeah, now we're getting a good idea, at least that these departments, they all seem disconnected from any actual productivity. But now we know that O&D made, as you said, these 3D printed, what was it in the Christmas room? Oh, they were props. They were props. They were gifts. Yeah. And they made the little cards that Gemma gets in the mail that she's filling out the survey for. Right.

[00:11:22] The illustrated cards. So, all right, they're actually doing something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're not just printing watering cans. Absurd things. Yeah, for no reason. Yes, exactly. And de-grouter. We just need to find out what the goats are for now. Ah, the goats were all over this episode. We'll talk about the goats in a little bit. But I love the relationship montage, the falling in love montage.

[00:11:49] The way the books, they did like a stop motion where they would, or what do you call it when you move through time fast? I forget. But with the books stacking up and then disappearing, it just gave this really good feeling of their establishing this wonderful life together. Set to Jacques Brel's Laval Mille Tant. Romantic. Sorry, again. Sorry, folks, for my French.

[00:12:16] The Waltz in 1000 Time from 1959. And so it was great. So this really cool Jacques Brel music. And then she's there with her plants. And you get to see their house. And their house is beautiful. And they're sweet and in love. And he spins her around. And they look happy. They look really, really happy, which we don't see Mark look very often. Yeah.

[00:12:45] That's one reason why it felt so different. Because it was so warm and loving and joyous and flirty and sexy and happy. And you see little bits and pieces of that kind of a thing in Severance. But like I was saying maybe an episode or two ago, how the winteriness kind of echoes the sterility of the inside. But you didn't get any of that here. It's just warm and loving. Yeah. And it's a different season. It looks beautiful.

[00:13:15] Springy. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. But those romantic scenes, like I love the golden light in a lot of those scenes. And also the like up close intimate shots. You don't, usually you're kind of far away in the shot and everything's symmetrical. And that, they didn't do that in those scenes. It was more movement and just felt more organic. Everything felt more organic.

[00:13:41] And that really contrasted with the sterility, coldness, and harsh light that was in the other part of this episode with the testing floor and everything. And the darkness of the scenes with Ragabi and Devin where they were worried about Mark. So there were like three different feels to the different parts of this episode that worked well together. Oh, that's so true. That's so true. True. In the testing floor where, in Gemma's apartment in particular, it's nice that they did let

[00:14:11] her have a record player. That's good. Yeah. But like the food that she has to eat was insane. Just had water. The pocks of weird food. Oh, it was so strange. Had we seen those before? I feel like we saw those in this show. I remember somebody adding water to something and it puffing up like that before. Either that or I dreamed it and then it came true. I don't know.

[00:14:39] I don't want my food in puck form. I just don't. Maybe I'm spoiled. What if it's an Oreo? No, you don't eat those. You know what? I would eat a Hydrox. Okay. Yeah. But I don't feel like cookies are in puck form. But that's a, you know what? You're close. Close. You could hit it with a hockey stick. Right. Now I want to. Anything else? Nope.

[00:15:08] About the look and feel? Well, that sort of goes with my first point of Mark and Gemma falling in love because it had a lot of that look and feel that you talked about. And I love that the way they meet at this blood drive where it's a great setting because you're sitting there feeling good about yourself because you're doing something good and you should, you know, you're doing something good, or at least I think they are. And then, you know, you're feeling good about the person next to you because they're doing something good too.

[00:15:38] And you got some time to kill. You're just going to sit there. And so you might as well talk. Right. You're going to sit there and prep for your Russian literature class or you're going to talk to the cutie right next to you. Right. Gee, which one? And I just loved how they're both so instantly intrigued with each other and curious and attracted and comfortable. That was the most important thing. Like they both feel comfortable staring at each other.

[00:16:05] Like, you know, it's that rare feeling where you just both know. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. If you ever find that, listeners, hold on tight. Hold on tight. Stay away from nefarious companies. They can break up your marriage. I like that they're both professors and intellectually on the same plane. And this all reminds me of when I met Jenny at Burning Man because we were in this Burning

[00:16:33] Man camp with a big dome and just sat there listening to her talk. And she, I could tell right away that like me, she was overeducated and analytical, but in a fun way, you know? And I just felt challenged to keep up with her. And I loved that, you know? And we'd make each other laugh. And yeah, it's just reminded me of that. That was really nice. Look at you and you held on. I love love. You do.

[00:17:01] And then also, one of the other great things about this matchup is it was so weird in the most wonderful way because we're used to seeing these two as, well, her in particular as this odd stilted person who seems like a Stepford wife or a robot or something. Right. Right. And now we're seeing them in this loving relationship, but we knew that Mark was really sad about it. So now we get to really feel why.

[00:17:29] And it's so interesting to see the aftermath first. Yes. This whole series up till now. And then see, okay, here's what was lost. Here's why he was sad. And Devin had told him when he asked about her, when his innie asked about her, she said, she said, she was, you know, he said, what was my wife like? And she said, she was wonderful. And she made you wonderful. And now we get to see that. Yeah.

[00:17:58] Like, especially when they're hanging out together. Oh, and she just seems like the kind of person that you would want in your friend group. Oh my God. She's luminous. Yeah. And no, no pun intended. Deacon Lockman. Yeah. I think it's Deacon, but I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't know. She's incredible. Yeah.

[00:18:20] She's so good that I, seeing the contrast later on in the episode, we get to see her back as Ms. Casey from season one. And I was like, oh my God, it's like, it's a different actress. It is. And, and Ms. Casey is the kind of role that because she seems almost unformed that it doesn't

[00:18:46] necessarily, maybe I'm underestimating it, but it doesn't necessarily seem that challenging. And I mean, it's wonderful. I'm not saying she did a bad job, but it's just like a simple role. You just have a blank look on your face and repeat these lines. And, and I'm probably, you know, underestimating how much it took, but that's the way it comes off to me. And then I saw her, this actress in dollhouse, Josh Whedon's show where these, it was a weird

[00:19:11] show where these young women could be imprinted with different personalities and sent out on missions and things like that. And she was one of them. And I always thought she was okay in that, but she came off sort of Ms. Casey, like in that one too, if I remember right. So I just didn't know if she would be good as a regular person. And she fucking was, man. She was so good. And I was so pleasantly surprised. I remember the first time I saw this, I was just, cause I figured, or I wondered at least, will there be a time when we get to see what these two were like together?

[00:19:41] And it was way better than I even hoped it would be. I know I'm kind of gushing, but it just had a big impact on me. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. And as I mean, even bigger because we'd only seen her as Ms. Casey before. For so long. So yeah, to see her blossom as Gemma. And the chemistry between them, you know? Yeah. Oh. Like it really worked. So a few more things about them. So when Mark brought her the ant farm and she hates ants and that seems- She likes plants.

[00:20:12] Plants, not ants. But that was when they were in their like huge honeymoon phase. Cause they're doing such a good job. Both of them have just giving each other these stare, loving stares and kind of giggling and stuff. That's like, you know, when you're first dating someone. Oh yeah. And then I was thinking ant farm kind of feels like where they both end up. I bet you that was on purpose, you know, trapped.

[00:20:37] Then I love when she's like kissing him and he's trying to work and they're talking about the crib and he says, what? I'm handy. And she says, handsy. I thought that was great. And then the whole montage you mentioned about with the French music and then the get together when they're looking at the photo of Rickon climbing the mountain and Jem's like, Rickon, what's wrong with you? Mark says, yeah, Rickon, what is wrong with you?

[00:21:05] He goes, hey, I belayed my first couloir in middle school. What? Which is a very Rickon thing to say. Yeah. And Jem goes, that sounds painful. And Mark goes, we all know what that means. And Devin goes, I'm sorry he said that, which I loved. But do you know what it means? I looked it up. I knew what belay meant. Yep. I know what belay means. And isn't a couloir. How do you say it? French man. French.

[00:21:35] Is that just like a fancy word for like a mountain pass or something? It's, well, from what I read, it's a steep, narrow gully or like a recessed channel on a mountainside. So you're coming down through like a little recessed area or something like that. And belay, if people don't know, it's just like sliding out a rope, right? Basically. Yep. Yep. Yep. And then just a couple other random things.

[00:22:01] The college where they teach, Gans College, where Mark and Jemba both taught, is also where Rigabi had hidden out in a lab there when she first met Mark and killed the security guy, Grainer, in the lab. People didn't remember. And I read, I don't know if this is true for sure, but that all of this is about five years before the first episode of Severance. So they met about five years. That makes sense. That makes sense.

[00:22:30] So, yeah, that makes sense. So they were together for three years and then Jemba died. He was working for two years, yeah. For two. And that's where we come into the first episode of Severance. I think so. Yeah, he's been there for two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Okay, what now? All right. Well, let's talk about what we know about Jemba. So she is important for a lot of different reasons, even more important than we knew.

[00:22:58] It sounds like Jemba and Mark are super important to Lumen and this Cold Harbor thing sounds like a big deal and they're both really important to that. Yeah, way more than we thought. I mean, I thought Mark was important because Selvig, Mrs. Selvig, Mrs. Cobell, yeah, lives next door to him. And there's probably a good reason why she lives next door to him. Well, also, I'm sorry. Go on.

[00:23:28] No, go ahead. Go ahead. They kept placating Mark at the beginning of the season. And it felt like it was all about, let's just do whatever it takes to get Mark to finish Cold Harbor. And then when I was researching this episode, because as we're going to talk about, all the names on the testing floor doors correspond to the files that the MDR people were working on. Yeah. They had mentioned last season that the first file that Mark ever did was called Allentown.

[00:23:54] And I think it was Dylan who said, yeah, he finished it really fast, but it was just like beginner's luck or something like that. But I think maybe Mark is just, for whatever reason, really good at finishing these files faster than anyone else. And so maybe that's why they want him working on Cold Harbor. And maybe Cold Harbor has to, maybe the reason why he's so good at it is because the files correspond to Gemma. Maybe. They seem to. There's some kind of connection there or something. Yeah.

[00:24:24] When he's doing the files and feeling the feelings that it. And feeling the feelings. He'd be the best one because he felt the feelings before. I don't know. Who knows? We don't know what the hell we're talking about even. I'm just some dummy you brought off the street. So what else do we know about Gemma? So we know that she's. It's all. There's a lot of speculation right now. There's a lot of speculation. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll, and I freely admit this is just speculation. So we know, we know she's important.

[00:24:53] Um, we know that, um, her brain device, her chip can be, can turn her into multiple people. Yeah. I think there's 25 files counting Cold Harbor. And so, and you see like 20 of those. So presumably there's 25 rooms. She's been to all of them except Cold Harbor. And I presume that every time she goes into one of those, it's a different severed self. Yes. Yes.

[00:25:22] And, and the, one of the reasons why we think that is for instance, when she goes in to see the dentist, she says, I was just here. Like to her, no time has passed at all. Fun. So that makes, yeah. Yeah. And she doesn't say, I remember you from the Christmas cards. It feels like they're all different. Right. She's. All her entire existence has been dentist, dentist, dentist. Yeah. Which sounds really bad. It's worse than MDR office, MDR office. Oh my God.

[00:25:52] Right. Oh my God. I mean, it seemed like each one of these rooms was somebody's version of hell. Cause I, that's what I thought about having to only be at the office and now it's dentist, uh, turbulence on an airplane. Uh huh. And then I thought it was so funny that, okay. One's also filling out Christmas. Thank you cards for Christmas presents. Right. So yeah. That's somebody's version of hell. Well, that's, you know, earlier, earlier in the episode, she tells Mark or Mark tells

[00:26:21] her, you know, you hate filling out, um, thank you cards, doing thank you cards. It makes, yeah. It makes me wonder if they have been, well, we know that they've been tracking, uh, Gemma from the start, um, when they are donating blood, that's a lumen blood drive. When she goes to the IVF facility, that's a lumen facility. So yeah. Even that doctor, Dr. Maurer was there. Was it was there. I saw him. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[00:26:49] And, um, so at this point after the blood drive, it makes me wonder, oh, she, then maybe they, maybe they figured out something about her and her blood. Maybe they clocked her as the perfect test subject. Yeah. And then she goes to the IVF facility. Maybe the IVF facility was always just BS. Maybe it was never a legit IVF facility. They may have sabotaged her pregnancy. They may have. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:27:17] Because we think that they staged her accident or at least dragged her real body from it and maybe fixed her up or something. They, they had, you know, they ended up with her. So they ended up with her. Who knows if she was even in an accident. Wait now, was there something? Cause okay. In season one, I think Rick and Devin were saying that Gemma wrapped her car around a tree and then it went into the, um, the, the, the lake or the ravine or something.

[00:27:45] And that's where we saw Mark crying later by that tree. But, but, and then I think Mark said something about burning in a fire. So I feel like they could have gotten another body burned it. And cause he also said he identified the body. Right. So they might've gotten someone that looked like her. I don't know. But was there something else recently that you and I talked about where we were saying that maybe Lumen had access to the wargs or mortuaries? Was it about Gemma?

[00:28:15] It must've been about Gemma already. We were already talking about her. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rigabi even mentions, um, they have, they have access to, to bodies. They have people everywhere. That's what they're suggesting that the body that Mark identified wasn't actually her. And so we don't even know if she was actually in an accident or what. No, I, I have the. I have the feeling that they plucked her out and, um, and kidnapped her without her consent.

[00:28:41] Some people have speculated that she gave consent because maybe they dangled, Hey, you can get a baby and we can fix that. Uh, but I don't think so because she said goodbye to him and said, you sure you don't want to come with me or you sure you don't want me to stay here? Like she, she wasn't willingly leaving him. So without telling him anything about it. That's a very good point. Cause I was thinking probably not, but now that you bring that up, it seems like it would

[00:29:11] be shocking that she consented to any of it. And now we see that she's trapped down there and wants to get out. And it seems like that's her normal self. That's saying that we don't know for sure, but it could be another severed version. I think it's, I think it's Gemma. She's like, can I see Mark? Can I go and see Mark? Yeah, that's right. You're right. Yeah. Can I see Mark? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, another thing that makes me think that they've been, they've been listening to

[00:29:36] her, uh, or tracking her and watching them is, um, they play, I'll be seeing you, um, in, uh, Gemma's holding cell. And that was music that Mark was listening to. So it makes me wonder if that was a song that was significant, um, somehow. So it makes me wonder, were they listening in? Were they watching? Did they have cameras? Did they know she hates filling out, um, thank you cards?

[00:30:04] So not only did she have to write thank you cards, which is bad enough. I hate writing thank you cards too. Um, she had to use her non-dominant hand and we know this because she was filling out a form in the IVF clinic. She was using her right hand. And then also when she was doing the, um, the lumen, uh, paperwork at her kitchen table, we see her right with her right hand. And then in the, and the reason why her handwriting is so crappy in, um, when she's filling out

[00:30:31] the, um, thank you cards is because she's using her left hand. I just thought it was because she'd had to do so many of them, but I didn't notice that. That too. But she was using her non-dominant hand, which is why it looks like it does, which sounds awful. My, when I, so I'm, I write left-handed and, um, when I was a kid, my mom, you know, they told her to try to get me to become a right-handed writer.

[00:30:58] So over the summer I had to practice and it was such a pain. I hated it. You know, after a while I was like, I don't want to mom. And she's like, okay. Oh, good mom. Are either of your kids lefties? Uh, only me. All the creative people that I know that like the really, truly creative people I know lefties. I'm both. Like some things I do left-handed, like right and eat, but pretty much everything else I

[00:31:27] do right-handed, like throw. So I'm just weird. They call it mixed-handed. It's not ambidextrous because I can't do both with either. Mixed-handed. Something's one, something's the other. Yeah. You'd be, maybe you'd be a good switch hitter if you were a professional. No, I can only bat right-handed. Wow. That's crazy. It's weird. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so interesting. I love it. I love it. What else? What else?

[00:31:57] Uh, last I want to say that, um, we know that Gemma fights back. So we know that she, uh, we saw her bonk, uh, Dr. Maurer with a chair. Um, Gemma, always double tap. Have you not watched any zombie movie before? Yeah. But what did her in wasn't that she didn't kill him. It was that she turned into Miss Casey when she went into the elevator. Fair. That's absolutely fair. She had to go back and the nurse was waiting for her. Yeah.

[00:32:27] But I still wanted her to completely clock him. You're like, I don't care about anything you're saying. I just wanted her to kill him. Um, and, um, we know that she tried to break his fingers previously. That's right. He can't really take a hint in this guy. No, he still loves her. Yeah. And, and thinks that there's a chance that she'll love him. I have a whole point about that. But let me talk about, um, man, I, I have stuff to say about the things that you just

[00:32:54] said, but I think first I'll finish off talking about Gemma and Mark's relationship before Lumen intervened because, uh, things started to fall apart there. And, uh, at the, this get together I was talking about before I liked how Devin asked Gemma, like, Oh, you're not drinking. And she just shook her head and she like knew. Um, yeah, it was a lovely moment. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:20] We've had talks on various podcasts about how some people get annoyed when the way that it's signified that a woman is pregnant is she throws up. Does that bother you? Oh, like every single, like every single pregnant lady, uh, when they have, they always have morning sickness. Yeah. That's how they indicated in the story. Like in the last of us, uh, Dina threw up. Right. Right. Right. But this time it was, she wasn't drinking. I think that's, it's all right. Right. That's a good way to indicate it.

[00:33:49] And that seems like that might be more universal. Yeah. You'd hope. Not completely universal, but more. Um, then the sad scene with the miscarriage in the shower, which is just devastating. And I'm glad that Mark, you know, was very caring there. Um, then they go to IVF and it reminded me of my own experience. Jenny and I, we tried for, I think a year before, uh, for Diko and then she got pregnant.

[00:34:18] And, um, but then with our second son, Bodhi, we did IVF. Did you know that? Yeah, I did. Yeah. And that's how he was born. And man, it was really tough for her. Not for me. I mean, it was hard for me to watch cause I had, you had to do those shots every night. And did you do one round or several rounds? And we did like three rounds and that was, I, I, I don't know what we would have done after

[00:34:46] that, but Bodhi was the final chance. Wow. Wow. Cause we wanted a girl and there were, um, female embryos, but. And they didn't take. And then Bodhi. And then Bodhi. Bodhi came along. Bodhi solved a Rubik's cube last night. I was so proud. What? I mean, he had a little instructional help, but it was still pretty cool. He's only nine. Oh, that is cool. Oh, I love that he's using it. Injecting way too much of myself into this one. Sorry.

[00:35:16] I love that. I love that he has a Rubik's cube. That's very 1990s. And I love it. He's so into it. And I love it because he's usually, his face is glued to his iPad, but now he's just fascinated with this thing. So that's awesome. Anyway. Oh, that makes me really happy. So then you see them start. Oh, well, Mark starts being kind of assholey with her and get, they're getting snippy with each other. And, um, because we're getting so much of their relationship in a short time, it was hard to watch because you love that honeymoon phase.

[00:35:46] And we all know that it doesn't quite last like that forever. At least most of us, uh, if it does for anyone listening, tell us, tell me your secret. But then, you know, he's sort of taking it for granted. He's, um, well, first off, he's frustrated trying to put the crib together, breaks it apart. It's just not working. Like they're not able to have a baby. The IVF failures are wearing them down.

[00:36:13] Um, he, he starts kind of taking her for granted saying he doesn't want to go to the party because of work and doesn't say, I love you back. And it just feels like this is all partly just out of frustration, right? Like they still love each other, but. Yeah, for sure. Uh, no, I, I think that he was doing what he does, which is he doesn't want to deal with his feelings. And so he got remote and. Buries himself in his work.

[00:36:43] Buries himself in his works, gets distant. Right. Which he wanted to do at Lumen, basically similar. Like I'll get this job and just. Yeah. I'll just disconnect. And I will, I will get away from outside my head because I don't want to deal with how unhappy I am. I think it's the same thing. I think he has grief over the, over the miscarriage and that grief is real, but I don't think he's dealing with it in a very responsible way. He's not perfect. No, he's not perfect.

[00:37:12] Um, and, um, I think that's a, that's a common thing, but we've seen him deal with his grief like that before by sort of disconnecting and getting distant. Um, and, um, and it made me sad because she needed, Gemma needed, um, you know, Hey, you know, I love you. Tell me you love me. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love you. Fine. Whatever. He's just distant.

[00:37:39] He's just checked out and he's just having a hard time dealing with his grief. I get it. Just want to shake him. Yeah, exactly. Deal with your grief in a responsible way, dude. I need your support right now. Um, so then the police arrive to tell Mark that she's been in an accident. So I like that, you know, we just knew we didn't even need much of that to know exactly what was going on. Right.

[00:38:03] And, um, and I think her death was even sadder for him because he knew that he wasn't being a good husband. He wasn't there for her. And then it felt unfinished. And again, lots of speculation, but I can imagine him being like, oh my God, if I could had that all to do over again, I wouldn't do it that way. You know? So many regrets. And that makes me also wonder like, oh, okay. Did that mean, is that why he hit the bottle more? Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:33] I bet you. Who knows? But I could see that happening for sure. Okay. What else? All right. Let's talk about the watchers. We don't know much. I don't have a lot to say about them, but I just thought it was such an interesting, weird thing that they, that they pulled out in this episode.

[00:38:53] So we follow a computer cable down a floor underneath the MDR room to where the doubles of Irving, Heli, Mark and Dylan watch them on TV monitors. And sometimes Mr. Drummond and Dr. Mauer are there. It's all very strange.

[00:39:15] We see that the doubles of Irving, Heli, Mark and Dylan are watching their respective double. So the double of Mark is watching Mark work on the computer. Yeah. And they watch Gemma sometimes. So it made me wonder if they're watching some kind of a cause and effect thing, you know? So MDR is refining these numbers from files with names on these doors. And then Gemma's going into these testing rooms and seeing if whatever they did,

[00:39:45] what the impact was or something like that. Right. Right. I don't know. Oh, so weird. But I read that those are not the same actors as the doubles at the Ortbo. Yeah. But that the Mark watcher is played by the same actor of the guy who was watching him in the hallway. I think in the premiere there was like a guy, I forget the context, but just a guy in the hallway and it was an eerie thing. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:12] That's the same guy that, I don't know if it's supposed to be the same person, but same actor. Why are they watching? What is happening? I just think they're monitoring everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who knows? Why do they need to be doubles of them? Right. That's the weirdest thing to me. Right.

[00:40:35] Because Luma seems like the kind of company that would have people monitoring progress, but why the fuck do they need to look like them? No. It's so weird. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's very strange. Yeah. They're just quietly sitting there while Drummond and Maurer are talking. Yeah. And Maurer's in different costumes. First, he's in the weird Christmas outfit. Yeah. And he goes, why are you wearing that? And he just ignores them.

[00:41:04] Why are you wearing that stupid sweater? I think because he wanted to have a nice, cozy, warm, Christmassy moment with this woman that he has a crush on. That he's torturing. Yeah. Sure. Sure. And then he's dressed as a coach, which is hilarious. Well, she's dressed in sort of an old school gym outfit. It's so funny. Loved it. Loved it. I wonder if he picked out her outfits. That would not surprise me.

[00:41:34] Okay. My next point is called, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. Which you already talked a lot about, but I'll just go through my notes. Yeah. It seems pretty clear that Lumen targeted Mark and Gemma. Um, the blood drive could have alerted them to something in their blood that would be right.

[00:41:55] Or it could just be like a way to connect with people, get your name out there and, um, possibly collect like biological profiles or something. Yeah. You know, um, then the Lumen fertility clinic, maybe they went to the fertility clinic because of the blood drive. Or maybe Lumen's just everywhere because it's cure. P.E. Yeah. Cure.

[00:42:21] Um, then in the, at the fertility clinic, I think that is a place where people who are having trouble go. And if you engineer it so that they don't get what they want, like I said, maybe sabotage the pregnancy, then you're going to have some sad people. So I just feel like there's a lot about emotion in the show and taming the four tempers and healing pain and everything that I think it's related.

[00:42:50] Like the fertility clinic could give Lumen a supply of people who are in emotional pain. And, um, let's see. So just table that, put a pin in that for a second. Then Gemma and Mark, um, are looking at these cards with the illustrated images, like the one Dylan took from optics and design. And Mark says, Chick-Ey Bardo. I don't know. It looks like two guys fighting. Why did he say that? Where was it named that? Or did, I don't even know why he said that.

[00:43:20] The card itself. Mark said, Chick-Ey Bardo. I don't know. It looks like two guys fighting. Where did he get the term Chick-Ey Bardo in that scene? Was it written on the card or something? I don't think so. I think they were talking about it because she does say that it's, um, uh, I think she first tells him, um. Oh, she's the one who comes up with it. What her interpretation is. And then, then she goes, no, it's the same guy finding himself defeating his own psyche ego death.

[00:43:48] Um, and she's filling out a survey about those cards that were sent in the mail from the fertility clinic. So that could be like Lumen evaluating her more for this testing for program or something. But the term Chick-Ey Bardo comes from Tibetan Buddhism and refers to the first Bardo or transitional state associated with the moment of death in the Bardo Thodol, often called the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

[00:44:18] It's a, it's a stage where a person encounters the clear light before moving on to whatever comes next. I don't know if that's related to, it is. Gemma says ego death and it feels like these concepts are typically associated with enlightenment where you transcend the attachments of the world. Right. And that feels relevant to all this taming the four tempers.

[00:44:44] When we see Gemma in the testing floor, we see this nurse giving her blood tests and blood pressure and everything. Then she gives her this woe meter. Yes. And says, if you were caught in a mudslide, would you be more afraid of suffocating or drowning? Which one would you pick? Well... It's kind of the same thing, isn't it? It is. Suffocation and drowning is, uh, I believe...

[00:45:08] Well, I think drowning is, uh, when there's liquid and suffocation is like... Lack of air. Yeah. I don't know, man. That feels... They're both bad. Yeah. I'd pick neither. I'd pick breathing. Thanks. So, anyway, she says drowning and her woe meter goes up. And that totally reminds me... I'm sure the writers were thinking of this, but do you know...

[00:45:35] I feel like we might have even talked about this on the podcast, but in Scientology, they have these auditing sessions with these e-meters and you hold on with both hands just like she was. And I think the idea is... And then they talk about uncomfortable things and they see how it registered. And when it doesn't register at all, then you're clear on whatever that thing is. Right. So, the idea, I think, is like to try to eliminate emotional reactions to like adverse memories. Yeah.

[00:46:03] So, again, it's like transcending attachments, um, taming the four tempers. Uh, and in MDR, macro data refinement. Refining means removing impurities. So, maybe they're trying to like remove emotional reactions or responses to things. And then that sort of seems related to Ms. Casey and these wellness check sessions insisting that people enjoy facts about themselves equally and not react too much.

[00:46:32] It's all about like getting rid of your emotional reactions to things. And it makes like, I used to be interested in these kinds of concepts when I would do meditation because the more you meditate, at least in my experience, the more you can sort of not be too triggered by things. Like something happens that's bad, but you don't lose your shit over it. You feel the emotion, but you can still sort of have a calmness about it.

[00:47:01] But I think to a certain degree, or in some other contexts, this could be unhealthy, like where you just sort of kill your instincts and your, your intuition and you become more of a robot and you lose your, maybe your compassion and your empathy too. Like you don't want to kill all the emotion in yourself, you know? And I just wonder if this whole thing is about, um, about controlling people.

[00:47:29] I don't know exactly how, um, like I, you know, we talked about this Lexington letters thing where macro data refinement seemed to correspond with a bus exploding. And I don't know if that aligns with everything I'm saying about getting rid of emotional reactions to things, but maybe, um, they were emotionally preparing some agent to commit terrorism and not have a reaction to it. I don't know. I'm, that's might be a real stretch here.

[00:47:58] I, I definitely think they are, it's a way for people to get severed before any unpleasant experience. So, um, they're probably, I mean, Lumen could right now, a company called Lumen could come into the world and say, Hey everybody, um, we're going to put a chip in your head and it will, um, let you go to the dentist or fly or write thank you notes or whatever you need to do.

[00:48:26] And, um, you're not going to have to do the unpleasant experience. Um, you won't have to do hard things anymore. Um, you're the other part of you will, will do it and you don't even have to remember it. Isn't that going to be great? I think it's horrible. I think it's horrible. If, if, um, specifically the woe meter, um, if they're trying to get her to react, um,

[00:48:51] less to something as horrific as drowning or suffocating, that's a good thing. Um, nothing wrong with trying to get ahold of your feelings and not, and not overreact to things that you fear. Um, I am totally fine with that. What Lumen is doing though with chip is a horrendous thing, which is take away hard things, um, from us.

[00:49:19] And I think hard things are good for us. I think it's, I hate, I hate going to the dentist as much as anybody. Sorry, dentist. You're wonderful. I actually think that modern dentistry is a fricking miracle. And, um, I would have hate to live hundreds of years ago when we didn't have modern dentistry. That's for damn sure. Say, having said that. Because then it would have been worse. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:49:43] I, I still don't like going to the dentist, but I would never subject, uh, my innie to only going to the dentist. And I think that going, doing hard things like going to the bank and, uh, working out and, um, flying. I think those are really important things. I think grit is good for us. We have to have something hard to rub up against.

[00:50:09] Um, if we make life too easy, I think it makes us into mushy humans. So, um, I think doing hard things and having unpleasant experiences are actually good for us. That's just me. I agree. I'm trying to think about what all this, what's the end goal for Lumen, right?

[00:50:31] Because I come back to Keir saying, if you tame the four tempers in yourself, the world will be your appendage. Which to me sounds like, hey family, if you can, um, you can do things the way I say, you'll be kings and everyone else will be your slaves. Maybe that's too big of a leap, but that's what it sounds like he was saying.

[00:50:55] And so if the goal is to sort of subjugate everyone, then maybe it's something like, look, if we can get everyone to not have any response to adverse conditions, then we can put them all in adverse conditions and they won't fight it. Something like that, you know, cause then they won't care. They won't have any emotions about it. And then they can, then they'll do what we want them to do or something like that.

[00:51:24] I, I don't know. I wonder if, if I haven't really gone out and looked at what severance fans theorize. I'm sure there's tons and tons of theories that have nothing to do with what I just said, but I wonder if anybody, cause they just talk about pain. Like, you know, Gemma says, so what happens once, uh, I've been in all the rooms because it does seem like cold Harbor is sort of an end state, like something completed here. Maurer says, you'll see the world again and the world will see you. So I'll see Mark. Mark will benefit from the world. You're siring.

[00:51:52] That sounds like you're going to change the world, right? You're going to do something that's going to change the world. Kier will take away all his pain just as Kier has taken away yours. So it's about, it has, he hasn't, but what this guy's saying is no one will have pain. And, and so I think, you know, since he's subjecting her to these really fucked up hellish conditions and seems like trying to get her not to feel something, then that's what it's about.

[00:52:19] It's about, we get to fuck with you and you won't fight back because you won't feel it or something like that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something along those lines. I think that's, I think that's right. They'll numb you out, you know, just want to numb everyone out. I think it's going to be like pluribus. That's what they want. They want the world to be their own pluribus where everybody's just like, how can we help you? We love you, Carol. Love you, Dr. Maurer.

[00:52:51] I like that, that Gemma says to Dr. Maurer at that moment, can't you just talk to me like a normal fucking person? Yeah. And he says, good night, Gemma. Dream sweet. So apparently no, no, he can't talk. I bet you Ben Stiller wrote that line. It's so good. And one thing that I'm worried about in terms of Lumen plans is that Drummond says that they will have to get rid of Gemma when they are done.

[00:53:21] Did you catch that? Yeah. And I, yeah, we don't know if that means kill her or what, but clearly Dr. Maurer is hoping that she'll be his girlfriend. So maybe he's trying to save her. I mean, save in quotes for that, or I don't know. I don't know either. And I do not like it. I'm worried for Gemma and I'm hoping that she gets rescued.

[00:53:51] Yeah, me too. Fucking yikes. No, yeah. I don't want any of these characters to die. No. None of them. Could they, I mean, could they do just a clean slate wipe on her? Who knows? Right. An obligement session. Right. Do you have any more points? I just want to say that it was funny that there were goats everywhere, including, I don't know if anyone caught the eye exam.

[00:54:20] The eye exam was hilarious because it was a standard eye exam chart. So, you know, the eye chart with at the top, you know, the letters going down. But then next to the standard eye exam chart, there was the goat chart. I didn't see that. Did you see that? No. Oh, so funny. Yeah. It was an outline of a goat, like a silhouette of a goat.

[00:54:44] And the silhouette was either upright or it was on its side, facing left, facing right, or upside down. And it was a whole eye chart with goats in different positions. Yeah. What are you supposed to? Maybe that's the one for the goats. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, it's a whole lot of points. Let's see. Okay.

[00:55:11] Dr. Maurer and the hell of the testing floor. So, we know what the dental tools are for. I don't know if he runs out and needs more or what. So creepy. And she seems like terrified to go in there. So, you're right. She's not in pain. She's in a lot of pain. She doesn't want to go in there. Asks for a break. Yeah.

[00:55:34] And then, I mean, when Dr. Maurer and Drummond are in the monitor room with the doubles and, you know, are the severance barriers holding? Yes. And then Drummond goes, you like her. She's easy to like. She's fond of me too, of course. Didn't she try to break your fingers? And then later, Dr. Maurer wants to know from her how she felt exiting the rooms. Did you exit any of the rooms feeling despair, fervor, gaiety?

[00:56:02] And I thought, you know, and maybe it is part of the test. But then later when he's saying, you know, was there any of those rooms where you felt happy when you came out? And, you know, saying to her when he tells her Mark remarried and has a daughter and then says he's moved on. Maybe you've moved on too.

[00:56:27] I just think he's delusionally thinking that and hoping that she'll fall in love with him in one of her incarnations. Yes. And then trying to sort of prod and see if it's happening yet, you know, which is very like psychotic. Like you're keeping her prisoner and subjecting her to a lot of pain. Right. Right. No, it's not going to happen. Although I suppose he could wipe her. He could send her into a new room she's never been in before.

[00:56:57] And that could be the room that she. Try one without dental tools. Right. You know, I mean, maybe you're right. Although I don't think that would ever happen because he just can't change himself. You know, he can't change his personality. If it was somebody else, you know, because that's what happened with Mark. He fell in love with Hellie. Yeah. And Audi Mark never would have because he was happy with his wife. Yeah.

[00:57:28] So then she tries to escape. And it made, you know, we talked about a little bit, but she turned back into Miss Casey. Of course, Milchick is right there lying to her. He said your Audi went to an on-site art exhibit and went down the wrong elevator or something like that. So that makes me think that Miss Casey thought she had an Audi who was free just like everyone else. Yes. Right. Yes.

[00:57:57] That's what they've told her, evidently. And it started, because of everything we saw with Gemma this episode, it got me wondering, A, how the Miss Casey persona came about. Because she doesn't really seem like Gemma. Right? I mean, is she a version of Gemma in a certain context? I don't think so. She's different. She seems very, very.

[00:58:24] I mean, all of her innies are pretty docile. They'd have to be, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, maybe it is just a version of her that just has only existed in the wellness center. But she seems different. And she has a different name. And then I'm like, why were they having, like, if she's supposed to be doing whatever down on the testing floor, why was she also Miss Casey in the wellness center?

[00:58:51] And my speculation guess for that is maybe Lumen was testing whether emotional bonds can survive the severance thing. So wanted to put a version of her in contact with the version of Mark and see what would happen. So if that's true, then maybe all the other wellness sessions were just so Miss Casey would think she had a real job. But actually, the only ones that mattered were when she was with Mark. That's right. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

[00:59:17] Or she just wanted to try to – they wanted, I don't know, her to try to get everyone to feel equally about everything. Then last – I just, you know, this point about Gemma that she really got a worse deal than anyone else we've seen on the show, I feel like. Oh, God. Yes. Her story kind of changes the story of severance because with the typical severance employees, they chose to come and do this. They didn't know. I mean, you can't say it's consent.

[00:59:47] Like we've learned about consent in the last several years, it's not really consent if you don't have all the information. Right. So they do this procedure and then they're lied to about what's going on with themselves, really, or their other halves inside. But anyway, at least they came to it. But she, it seems like, got plucked out of her car or something, kidnapped and thrown into this prison. That's different, you know. That's even worse. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. It breaks my heart. Yeah.

[01:00:17] We got to see her saved. I can't remember any – I mean, we haven't had an outie time. I don't know if you guys have noticed because I have no clue what's going to happen next. No. Three more episodes. I think I kind of remember sort of vaguely what happens in the next episode. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. That's the one I'm excited about. Yeah. Me too. It's not the – wait. Is the next one the Cobell one? It might be. I think so. Oh, okay. Is that also the one – well, I can't spoil it. Anyway. All right. Don't spoil it. We'll see when we get there.

[01:00:46] So I also wanted to talk about just the parts with Devin and Rigabi. Did you have anything about that? Nope. Okay. So it's short, but Devin's like, you really think this is going to work? And Rigabi says, there's no other choice, which is a scary answer because that means desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't know if it's going to work, but I'm putting him at risk anyway because I really need this to happen. Yeah.

[01:01:14] And then Devin is coming up with other ideas. She mentions the birthing cabin where she knows that Audis can transform into their Inis and she wants to talk to Mark's Inis there. And Rigabi says, those are two completely different things. This is how you get Gemma out. So I guess she just thinks that sending Audi Mark or maybe integrated Mark in is more effective than talking to Inis Mark. Is that why she wouldn't go for that? Yeah. I guess that's true.

[01:01:43] But actually, I think Devin's plan might be even better somehow. I mean, when you... Okay. So Devin's plan is she'd get to have a nice long conversation with Inis Mark. I mean, it's worth the shot anyway. You could do both. Right? But why not? Why not? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then you could even get him on board with what you're doing. Hey, we're doing this integration. Maybe Rigabi doesn't want to risk that he would say no. But anyway. Yeah.

[01:02:12] I don't think he'd say no. He sounded... He sounded... When she talked to him at the party, he sounded like he wanted to know who he was on the outside and all about his wife. So seems like he would be on board. What if you knew that integration was perfected so that it would happen without any problems

[01:02:33] and you had a severed other half and she came, you were somehow able to converse and she's like, okay, do you want to reintegrate? Would you want to do it? Yeah, I would. I would. Because I feel like the... I feel... Yes, I would. And here's why.

[01:02:57] I feel like the innies are sort of a form of ourselves that have not been hardened by life. And to have that sort of version... A dose of that. A dose of the Karen that hasn't had any experience with sadness and loss would be lovely to inject

[01:03:25] that into my being. Don't you think? That's cool. Potentially. I mean, what if some really bad things happen to your other half? It could fuck you up too. Yeah. I think I would want to. But I might have a couple questions first. But it reminds me of one of my favorite comic series. There was this... Started out as a villain, became a hero called Multiple Man. And his power was whenever he was struck or hit himself, another duplicate of himself would pop out.

[01:03:53] And it was just some side character that nobody really... He didn't have a personality or anything. It was just in fights and stuff. But then this really good comic writer, Peter David, did a little mini series with him and fleshed him out. And so he would send out his... Called dupes. And then when they came back, they would absorb back into him. And whatever... It would be like reintegration.

[01:04:21] Whatever memories or events happened would come back into just one person. But one of them never came back. So he went out looking for it. And he found out that he had a family and everything. He didn't want to come back in to himself. And one of them became a priest or something. It started to get messy. It was really interesting. It does sound messy. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It does sound messy. I'm going to change my answer. My answer is... You could ask for consent.

[01:04:51] But what else? So then Devin starts to call Cobell. And Ragabi freaks out. She's afraid of her. She says she was raised by them. She's a soldier. She's going to turn us in. And she freaks out and leaves. And I was like... If I was Devin, I might be like, oh, okay. Okay. Wait, wait. Maybe I won't call her. Yeah. Because you want the doctor who's been fucking with your brother to maybe just be around and help. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:05:17] And we know that it's with his consent that he's undergone reintegration. So, yeah. You want the doctor to stay there. Mark probably wouldn't want Devin to chase her away. And also, why call Cobell? Right. This woman who faked being your lactation consultant. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And you were worried about, like, had she stolen your baby?

[01:05:46] She's pretty fucking evil. Yeah. Ragabi says, don't call her. Don't do it. I mean, why don't? She did call too, right? Because there was the hang up button. I think she pressed call. Yeah. And she wasn't answering, I think. I don't remember whether they actually, whether it all went through. But I think it's a terrible idea. Don't do it, Devin. I know. I don't remember if we see Ragabi anymore after this either. I can't remember.

[01:06:15] Last thing on this is, I just, because it's about Mark being unconscious while these two argue. I think the flashbacks are all Mark dreaming or remembering as he's unconscious there. I think so too. Because then he starts going chick, chick. And then we see the chick-eye Bardo part of their story like that. Right. Right. And then he wakes up and he's still thinking about Gemma. He's still wondering how to pronounce chick-eye Bardo. Just like us. I think that's right. Okay. Any notes? Nope.

[01:06:45] I just had a few. So according to the San Francisco Wikipedia, the WoMeter device is a fully functioning machine custom design built and engineered by Prop Wizard Make 3, whatever that means. So it's like they made it just for the show. Oh, cool. It's kind of cool. Yeah. Um, I guess that's it. Okay. What's a, what's a line that we can have everyone say? I forgot to come up with one. Ask people, why can't you talk like a normal fucking person?

[01:07:15] Try that. Yes.

[01:07:48] All right. Time for our listener feedback experience. Anwen. Yeah. We got a call from Anwen who actually sent this in a while back, but it was for this episode. So here we go. Cool. Hey, Jason and Karen. Episode seven, season two of Severance was quite amazing. So emotional. I had been wondering previously how we were supposed to sort of feel that connection between Mark and Gemma. Yeah.

[01:08:18] Because she just seemed like this weird robot lady. Yeah. Whenever. Exactly. She had scenes with Mark. And I had begun to feel that real connection between him and Hallie. But this episode was incredible to show you their backstory. Really made you sort of understand who she is. But again, like with all of Severance episodes, I had so many questions. What on earth is she doing there? Why is she going into all different rooms? And is she severed differently for each room? Does she have no memory of them?

[01:08:47] Is the Gemma in that beautiful kind of decor-like room? Well, the 50s furniture. Is that the real Gemma? So many questions. Also, one of the most heartbreaking and realistic portrayals of infertility that I have seen on TV or movie. I think it was so incredibly well done and really sad and heartbreaking.

[01:09:14] And now it just is really making me want them to get back together. My hopes for the rest of the season are please let there be some kind of resolution. I don't want to have the season end and there just be more questions than answers. One or two questions to lead you into season three, sure. But let's get a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Anyway, thanks for your awesomeness. Bye. Bye. I feel like there's not going to be much light, but I could be wrong.

[01:09:42] It's all tunnel, people. There's more. Yeah, you're just going to see the light way down at the end of the tunnel. It's an oncoming train. With just a freight train coming your way. I was thinking, yeah, I just love them as a couple now, Mark and Gemma. But it doesn't make me have any less love for Mark and Helly as a couple because it's just two different couples, really.

[01:10:12] That's how I see them. Indy Mark and Helly, Audi Mark and Gemma. Yep. I completely agree. They seem like completely different people. Indy Mark and Audi Mark, completely different people. Yeah. Awkward. Maybe they'll figure out a way to clone him and put Indy Mark's consciousness into the clone. Like multiple man. Getting weird. You want to go do the first message? Okay.

[01:10:42] This first one comes from Wendy Ann who says, Finally caught up. Episode three and four really veered off the rails a bit. I lost focus, but I'm back on it now. Episode four was wild. Milkshakes. Arctic gear was glorious. It was. Audi, Heli, and Indy Mark have great heat and chemistry. I can't tell if it's real for her or not. After seeing Audi Mark and Audi Helena flirt and banter back and forth in the next episode,

[01:11:11] I think Helena has the hots for him despite herself. Yeah, absolutely. But she could just be manipulating him. I'm guessing it's both. Things got super intense quick. What a difficult scene to watch at the end, but so well done. On to episode five. The fruit head. Crazy creepy. Mark has to be so mixed up. Flirting back and forth between his Innie and Audi. Flitting. Sorry. Flitting back and forth between his Innie and Audi.

[01:11:39] Mark's Innie has feelings for Heli, but knows he's connected with and made love to Helena. Pretty wild ride. No, Rickon. No, no, no. That's about writing. I think that's about writing a version of the book for the Innies. For the Innies. Dumbing down the language. Episode six. I just had an idea come to me. What if Ms. Wong is an adult Innie that they have transferred into a child's body? Oh, God. She seems like that. Ms. Wong.

[01:12:09] Did you punch him? Ha ha ha ha. That's funny. Innie Mark and Heli are so sweet together. Episode seven. Wow. I'm really falling in love with Mark's character. You can see how happy he and Gemma were. And the morose, broken, current day Mark makes so much sense after seeing how much he lost. I love the montage of their life and history. I can tell we are ramping up in these final episodes. It was all I could do not to watch the next one. Yes.

[01:12:38] I agree, Wendy Ann. And honestly, it was all I could do too. And, man, I just have more and more appreciation for Adam Scott's talent as an actor. Yep. Just playing that morose Mark, but still having, you know, a little bit of fun with his sister. Like, it's so real and human the way he plays these characters. It is. So good. I agree. All right. Here's a call from Jenny Ryan. Hello, Severance family.

[01:13:07] Jenny from Saskatoon. I'm sending a message to let you know that the whole time you've been doing this podcast, I've been thinking that this whole story reminds me of something. And I finally figured out what it was. In 2005, Kazuo Ishiguro wrote a book that is one of my favorite books of all time, but I've only read it once, but I've loved it for many years called Never Let Me Go. And it was made into a film in 2000 and something.

[01:13:37] I saw it. And it's a very interesting story. I'm going to spoil it because I feel like you've had 20 years to read it. And it's about this group of kids and they grew up in a school, like a boarding school. And you know, there's something like weird about them. They don't have families and they have names like Kathy H, Tommy D. And then they grow up and they know that they're going to become carers and donors.

[01:14:05] And you don't know what that means until they become grownups and they move out of the school. And you realize that what they are is clones of people. And they have been raised to donate organs to their principal person. And so like Kathy H is raised for whoever her clone person is who has a real life. And Kathy's life is just to be sort of in the shadows.

[01:14:32] And she is a carer for other donors until it's her turn to be a donor. And the whole story was written because Ishiguro wanted to sort of look at what it means to be a person. Do clones have souls? There's a teacher who's actively trying to prove that these children have souls. So she gets them to make art because her belief is that art shows that you have a soul. And there's a whole thing like do they fall in love?

[01:15:01] What happens if they fall in love? Are they allowed to live forever? If they can be proof that they're real people? Anyway, it's fascinating. It's a really good movie too. But I really highly recommend the book. Anyway, this whole severance thing really makes me feel like whether consciously or subconsciously, the people behind severance know this story. Yeah. Okay. Bye. Yeah. It makes sense you would think of it. You read that? Or you saw the movie? I saw the movie. Yeah.

[01:15:31] Now I need to read the book. It makes me think about how if so in this story, the clones were just there to be like an organ farm for their, like the innies were the organ farm for the Audi sort of in severance parlance. And in severance, they don't think of the innies as people. And severance is all about taking away pain.

[01:15:56] And the way they do that in severance is by having these entities that they consider non-people do all the painful stuff. Right. So it's giving birth. It's doing the job. And now they're having Gemma do even more painful things like the dentist or the being on a scary airplane or whatever else.

[01:16:19] And I wonder if the idea is to try to figure out how to take away pain without having to do that. You know, they just keep talking about taking away pain or taming the four tempers. It's definitely part of it. But yeah, it's led to this thing where you've actually just created these people who have to endure all the pain. And then you just think of them as not people. But that doesn't solve the problem that they actually are people. Right. Exactly.

[01:16:49] Exactly. And weirdly, Melchick tells Audi Mark to get him to come back. He says, you know, it's working that, you know, the happiness that you and the joy that your innies experiences will bleed over into you. So there's not really even a great severance barrier.

[01:17:16] You know, Petey even tells him at the beginning, you know, your sadness carries through here. You're sad on the inside too. You just don't know why. Yeah. And so I don't think there is, you can't sever these experiences from yourself ultimately. It just is confusing and raises all kinds of terrible moral questions. So severance, bad. It's not working either.

[01:17:44] Like he's been there for two years, Mark. And his joy has not transferred over. Not even Melchick is happy. He's like yelling at himself in the mirror. Kowal is raging. Heli, Helena seems like really unhappy in her family and longing for love. Like they're all, I mean, only Rickon. No, not even him. Like, I don't know. He's not part of the whole severancy thing though. But yeah. So I don't know. It's just like. Devin seems like she's doing pretty well.

[01:18:14] Trying to take a shortcut to avoid discomfort in life. Yeah. Don't take shortcuts, people. It never pays off. Okay. Rachel says, This episode was a deeply depressing art house romantic horror film. So heavy that I cried a bit when it ended. Lumen faked Gemma's death and kidnapped her. She's been severed against her will into what is apparently multiple different consciousnesses.

[01:18:44] Worst of all, her outie self is conscious and being held captive underground in this facility. She's trapped and desperately wants to escape to be with her husband again. But even when she manages to escape, she can only go to the severed floor where she's sent back down to her prison again by fucking Milchick. Let's remember this when we have any sympathy for him whatsoever. Good point. Yeah, that's true. Good point. The blood drive seems to be where it all began.

[01:19:10] Not just Gemma and Mark's relationship, but whatever the hell Lumen was looking for and found in Gemma. That was my takeaway from the final shot of the Lumen logo at the blood drive. Yeah, and then the cut right to her blood being drawn in captivity at Lumen. How deep does Lumen's control run? Are we to assume they're responsible for her miscarriage and her infertility? Maybe. Yeah, there's reason to suspect that for sure. The doctor at the fertility clinic is the same, quote, doctor conducting fucked up tests on her severed parts.

[01:19:39] I want him to die a horrible, violent death. Is the whole town an experiment? Are they always listening to everyone everywhere? Potentially. There were references in the lab to things said at the blood drive and in Mark and Gemma's house. The death of Ivan Illich and I said, I love you. Yeah, yeah. Bugs in there, huh? Being monitored. And Gemma was sent the weird Chikai Bardo flashcards as some kind of psychological experiment,

[01:20:09] but she didn't seem to know exactly why she received them. Yeah, that was kind of weird that she just wanted to fill it out anyway. I wouldn't bother with that. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of which, I'm sure you'll cover it, but Chikai Bardo, a Buddhist term that translates to the intermediate state of the moment of death starting as the body dies and consciousness separates from the physical form. I mean, you could spend a whole podcast dissecting that and what it might mean for Gemma, the severance procedure, and Cold Harbor. And by the way, what the fuck is Cold Harbor? What does it mean?

[01:20:39] Quote, you will see the world and the world will see you. Quote, can you please just talk like a normal person? No, you can't. I guess Rachel doesn't remember the end of this either because I know she's seen it all. This episode was so artistically shot, it was absolutely beautiful. The dreamy, romantic way they showed the evolution of Gemma and Mark's relationship, the sped up shots of different states of their house and their embraces and laughter, even the sad bits like the miscarriage and taking apart the crib were so well done, it was truly painful to watch.

[01:21:07] The way they seamlessly fluctuated between Mark's memories and Gemma's, sometimes not knowing which memories were whose. Yeah, that's true. And that's good because they're this couple that's feeling very enjoined at the time. I just looked up the director, Jessica Lee Gagne, and she was nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Cinematography for a Series for this episode. She won the same award for the episode Hello, Miss Cobell, the season premiere of season two. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:37] Quote, he's journeying now. This makes me think of psilocybin. Not that I would know what that's like, but his journey is very trippy and reminiscent of what I imagine a strong dose of mushrooms would be like. Wait, who said that? He's journeying now. Was that in the episode? That was, yeah, that was, what's her name? Rigabi. Rigabi says he's journeying now. Oh. When Devin's like, what's wrong with him? Yeah. He's journeying now. That's funny.

[01:22:05] Did you notice next to the eye chart in Gemma's prison, there was another eye chart of sorts with just goats of different sizes and different positions? LOL. WTF. Yes. Yes, I did. The names of the rooms are also the files that MDR is refining. So does each room evoke one of the four tempers, theoretically? This is the first uncool thing Devin has done. Well put. Why on earth would she think calling Cobell would be a good idea?

[01:22:33] I don't blame her, Gabby, at all for saying, nope, I'm out. But I do appreciate Devin's fierce protection of her brother, even though her decision making was a bit questionable when under such stress. Yeah. I would like to note that many episodes ago, I commented that Mark's hair looks like the haircut or lack thereof of a man who does not have his wife anymore to tell him he needs to go get a haircut. In this episode, we see Mark with Gemma looking fine as hell with a crisp haircut. Hmm. I'd forgive him immediately for bringing me an ant farm too.

[01:23:03] That seems so unbearably cute. Well, to be fair, he had that haircut when he met her in the blood, you know, giving blood in the library or whatever. I think he's just let himself go because he's in a bad state. I also think long hair with beard version of Mark, so adorable. She finishes, there was absolutely nothing funny in this episode. Oh, there was a couple of little things. But I feel like a good line to say to a stranger would be outdoorsmanship courses through my veins.

[01:23:32] I make no apology for it. That is good. Oh, what was the one he said? Let's see. I belayed my first cool war in middle school. Say that. Yeah, go ahead and say that. And see what somebody says. If you can. Yeah, if you can. I can't. We can't say that. Okay. Now let's hear from a couple more callers. The first one is our good friend, Damien. I'm not crying. You're crying.

[01:23:59] That, my friends, is why we watch television and why we're this passionate about it. What a staggering, dizzying, glorious and brutally emotional episode that was. Truly one of the best hours of TV you will ever watch. I've said before that I watch things like emotionally first, then intellectually and then eventually analytically.

[01:24:24] So the mystery of the rooms, what they're doing with Gemma and how it links to Cold Harbor and why Mark is so important. I don't know. And when the bulk of the episode is drowning in emotions so vivid it hurts, I don't really care. Yeah, for right now at least. I'll leave that to you. You can speculate about it and work it all out probably better than I can.

[01:24:48] And yeah, I'll stay in the love and the loss and the pain of what they gave us in this episode. So the regular DP of the show, Jessica Lee Gagne, the amazing woman responsible for how incredible Severance looks this whole time. She directs this episode. And just wow.

[01:25:15] The flashback sequences, they're unlike anything we've seen so far. They're warm. They're full of life. The camera's handheld and it's shot on good old 35mm film. And it just truly looks like it. Mark and Gemma's house was actually the house that Jessica was renting to work on the show. So she knew every inch of it.

[01:25:42] She had an intimate knowledge of the light and how it looked at particular times of the day. It truly felt like a lost world. That's what made it so painful. We mourned for Mark and Gemma now that they're trapped in the cold world of the show instead.

[01:26:04] The visual storytelling on this episode was opening sequence of Up by Pixar, level good. You know that's the benchmark of all good storytelling, right? Yeah. Their first meeting, the pregnancy reveal, Gemma's miscarriage, the police at the door, all handled with the most graceful of touches and the least amount of exposition.

[01:26:33] And just, oh, it's so good. But the longer it went on, the angrier and angrier I got at Lumen and everyone involved as we see Gemma's current daily, well, I was going to say life, but I don't know how much of a life that really is. I'm with Irving. Let's burn this place to the ground.

[01:26:58] The rage I felt when the world's worst dentist told Gemma that Mark had remarried and had a daughter. I wanted her to hit him a few more times with that chair. Uh-huh. Awesome. Anyway, thanks again for having me and my clearly inferior microphone onto the podcast last week. I borrowed it from Dario and I believe it was made for my broom.

[01:27:25] It was an absolute blast and quite surreal to be with you both and to dive into the show that I adore. So thank you. Cheers, you two. Uh, gosh, what's next week going to be like? We have no clue, but good to hear from you. Thank you, Damien. Oh, I love Damien so much. It was so fun to have him on. Damien's a great guy. More Damien. More Damien. Okay, let's hear from another great guy, Steve Brown. Hello, Jason and Karen.

[01:27:55] This is Steve and I'm trying to get caught up on Severance now. I didn't realize how far behind I was. So this is going to be for Severance Season 2, Episode 7. And I'm going to try to pronounce it Chick-a-Babe. Well, I guess I am. No, I'm not going to. Oh, this is the flashback episode where we get to see Mark and Gemma before Lumen. That's a very different haircut for Mark S. And the 5 o'clock shadow. Wow, Adam Scott looking good.

[01:28:21] Hey, so Ragabi just told Devin that Gemma is alive for sure. Wow. Oh, and this looks like Gemma is in Lumen somewhere. Sign on the wall said Allentown. Isn't that a Billy Joel song? You're going to go over probably all the names on the doors here. Oh, and creepy guy whistling the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Reckon, you do not look like outdoorsmanship courses through your veins. But okay, I'll take their word for it. This is very spring of consciousness kind of storytelling.

[01:28:47] I mean, I know we're seeing a lot of this between Mark's dream and his reintegrating and stuff. But it's really fascinating the way they're editing this together and stuff. Oh, and the way they're seamlessly cutting between the Gemma storyline and the Mark storyline is great. You can really only tell by the hairstyles whether we're in the past or the present or what. And they are so cute together. They turn around and bend over to give her the fertility treatment. I'm assuming that's what it is. I haven't noticed anyone saying the title of the episode yet, but they might have and I missed it. Oh, and Gemma just mentioned seeing Mark.

[01:29:17] So she knows kind of what's happening maybe. Oh, I totally forgot that Ruggabi just walked out on her and Mark's waking up. Oh, there it is. He said the title of the episode, mic drop. Oh, and one of the rooms is like a train, a plane experiencing turbulence. Okay, they're saying some very ominous things here now. Like when he's done with her, you're going to say goodbye to her and for care. How many different people is Gemma? Whoa, that dude just told her that Mark remarried. That's just horrible.

[01:29:46] Oh, and they have a child together. Oh, good for you, Gemma. Just clocked him over the head with a chair. But now you don't know how to get out. Oh, she went up the elevator and she became Miss Casey again. Oh, and there's cops coming to the door. This must be the night that Gemma had her accident. Oh, Gemma's back to the floor and now Mark's waking up. All right, on to next week. Thanks, Steve.

[01:30:11] I won't say them all, but I already mentioned she passed by one called Allentown and that's the one that they had said Mark first completed and did it unusually fast. And Dylan said it was a freshman fluke. Then they did Cairns, Drainsville, and then Sienna. And in season one, we saw Hellie working on Sienna and then she finished it near the end.

[01:30:37] There's one called Tumwater, which Dylan finished and that earned him his waffle party. Yep. And then there's a few more, Loveland, Wellington, and just a bunch I didn't bother. But we've seen them working on a few of these and actually finishing them. Indeed we have. Interesting. And then I don't know why, but his message reminded me, I started thinking about Miss Wong, who is played by a young person. I think she's, do we know her age?

[01:31:07] I thought it was like 13 or something, but I could be wrong. I think it's more than that. Older. Yeah. But not by much. 19 or something like that. Anyways, I can't remember what happens to her by the end of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if she somehow exits the story or else they're going to have to come up with a reason why she's three years older when season three comes out. You know what I mean? No, I mean, she, yeah, that's true. That's true. Everybody else, they can, they can drop right.

[01:31:37] We can drop right back in. Pretty much. Yeah. And they look about the same, but you're right. She's going to be, she's going to be three years older. Yeah, that's true. The Carl syndrome. Carl Grange. The Carl syndrome. Exactly. Exactly. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

[01:32:06] Thanks, everybody. Next episode, Severed Season 2, Episode 8, Sweet Vitriol. The one that Karen and I didn't like that much, but we're curious to see if we feel the same this time. Exactly. Exactly. And if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can send it to wafflepartyatpodcastica.com. Or you can leave comments on our Discord or Facebook group and come in there, chat with us and other listeners about Severance or whatever else you're watching.

[01:32:36] I put up a channel for Widow's Bay in there recently, and I'm loving that show so much. I think there's like two or three more episodes left, right? Two more, I think. It's so good. The main guy makes it. I don't know his name. Matthew Rhys? Yes. He's so good. But not just. No, that's true. They're all good. There's a part of the character that was back in the day. Yeah. And we saw the beginning of Widow's Bay in 1702. Yeah.

[01:33:06] And then they did another, you know, shoot forward 300 years. Oh, it's so good. The next one's out too. Did you see the one after that? I haven't. Oh, that's good. Because David has had to be at the ballpark. It's really good. Tonight is like, okay, tonight's the day. We're going to do it. I love that Steven Root is in it, but I think my second favorite character is, I don't know

[01:33:29] her name, but it's the one who the rapist came into her room when she was a teenager. Yep. The boogeyman. Yeah, the boogeyman. Don't spoil anything for me. She's so great. She's amazing. Patricia, right? Yeah. And her episode was really good too. Out of control. I recently went back and I rewatched because I couldn't watch the new episode.

[01:33:55] So I rewatched old episodes and to see if I could get little clues for what's happening. And it's fabulous. Yeah. I watched the first episode again with Jenny just to see if she would like it. And she did. She was stoned. That might've helped. I don't know. But anyway, she liked it. I was so, cause she's very picky and I saw a lot of little clues for things that I hadn't noticed before. Yes. There was nobody here on the Island except for all the teeth. This is so weird.

[01:34:25] I love it so much. And fun, fun thing is that they film it all around Massachusetts. And one of the places that they film in Massachusetts is my aunt and uncle's town, Harvard. Harvard and right near Harvard is a little town called Air. And they filmed a couple of things in Harvard and Air. So I'm going there on Tuesday. Oh, cool. You can find a filming location. Every time I go there, I'm now thinking about Widows Bay. Okay.

[01:34:55] That's cool. I hope they, they, I feel like that's a show where they could and should come back in a year, if not sooner. Please. Yes. Yes. So anyway, that's, that's a good one that we're not podcasting. I'm ever happy to gush about it. Apparently so. Widows Bay. I think anyone who likes severance would probably dig that if you like the funniness of severance because it's very clever like that. Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[01:35:24] And it's weird and something's going on. There's also something going on about time. There's quirky people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. And please write to us and let us know if this podcast left you feeling despair, fervor or gaiety. I love me feeling gaiety. Me too. Woo!

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