Severance S2E9 "The After Hours"

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[00:00:31] Ah! Hmm. I have followed protocol, Mr. Drummond. But I thank you for your remonstration. A needlessly complex word for a simple idea. Apologize for the word. Sir... Apologize for the word.

[00:01:03] I apologize. Shorter. I'm sorry. Again. Mr. Drummond. Again. Devour feculents.

[00:01:33] It means... Eat shit, Mr. Drummond. Hey everybody! Welcome to our podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Eric. And this is Wax Episodic. And this episode we're covering Severance Season 2 Episode 9 The After Hours. Eric is here. Eric is actually Karen's Annie.

[00:02:03] No. It's weird how that worked out. No, just kidding. Different voices? Yeah. Karen's good. No. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you've heard Eric because, Eric, you've called in with some great calls. Eric's a podcaster, a podcast coach, a long-time friend of mine. But yes, you've had those great Severance calls and it was just quickly apparent that you're a huge, passionate fan of the show. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your history with the show and what you like about it.

[00:02:33] You know, I'm one of the guys that watched it in 2022 when it first came out. Week to week? Well, so I started probably, it finished in April and I remember I started watching it in the beginning of March. So I think three or four episodes had come out. Got it. So I watched it and then I was week to week.

[00:02:58] And man, seven, eight, nine, I've said this already on the pod in a previous episode, but that first season just rocked me. And then I had to wait three years for that sucker to finally come out again. And, uh, but it felt very personal. I don't know, like nobody knew about it at the time. It was like a small show and, um, yeah, it just felt like there was this small crowd of innies that loved the show as much as I did.

[00:03:28] And, and I tried to find those people out and listen to podcasts about it and stuff. So yeah. Right now, podcasting on it, it feels like a small crowd that's following along with us. Uh, really engaged. I mean, I love it so much. Uh, you and Rachel and Damien and Steve, you know, and a few others and, you know, people who are listening and not, uh, writing in and stuff. But, um, I know when season three comes back and we start doing week to week, that's going to be really fun.

[00:03:56] Cause there's going to be so many people in there trying to theorize and figure it out together. I love Damien. Love, love his voice. Yeah. The guy's amazing. Rachel is so insightful. She's so good. Yeah. It's, it's fun. We should all hang out. I wish we could hang out. I know. Wish I could just snap her fingers and like have a watch party for season three, episode one or something. Yeah. Let's do it. That'd be amazing. All right. Well, would you like to read the plot summary? Absolutely. Here we go.

[00:04:24] On the day of the cold Harbor files, expected completion, Mark and Devin meet cobell who says Gemma will die after the file is completed. Mark calls in sick promising Milchak. He will come to work the next day. Gretchen confesses to Audi Dylan about her romance with his any. So he threatens to quit. She confides in any Dylan about their fight and tearfully says goodbye.

[00:04:53] Heartbroken Dylan submits a resignation form. Bert, who worked for Lumen transporting persons of interest, breaks into Irving's apartment and drives him to a train station. He buys Irving a ticket and says to never return. They share their feelings for each other and Bert sees Irving off. Miss Huang completes her stint as deputy manager and Milchak sends her away.

[00:05:19] Helly recovers the exports, halls, directions card and memorizes it. But Jane Egan arrives at MDR at night. Cobell and Devin sneak Mark into a severed cabin at the same birthing lodge where Devin had her child. Mark's any then awakens in the cabin. I forgot that was the same birthing lodge.

[00:05:45] So they have, I guess, non severed areas and severed areas. It's not just for severed people. Um, yeah, I, I, that Devin was in there. It did not look like the same exact birthing lodge, but I don't remember season one really paying that much of attention to it. But I mean, I think there were different rooms, right? Because they definitely were because the Senator's wife was in a more lush area that Devin commented. Oh, they're rich.

[00:06:13] So I don't think this was, yeah, the same room that Devin had, but I just mean the same complex. Like she was in there, but definitely this birthing area. I forgotten that. Yeah. So, and Devin wasn't severed. So it's only certain areas are for all of, for all of James, James kids. I guess so. I guess. It's one of James. Um, so how was it to watch this one again in general? Oh man. And I was so happy to finally watch this one again. Uh, after eight, eight is just episode.

[00:06:43] It's just so grueling. You have to get through it. I know you guys did a great job and you found the best parts of it, but it was a hard one. Really hard one. I was looking at IMDB, how the list, uh, the viewers rate each episode. And I think that's the lowest severance rate. It's like six point something and all the rest are eight or higher. Yeah. It's gotta be, but Chi Kai Bardo too, was a, was a standalone episode. It was so good.

[00:07:09] So this was like, oh man, we finally get all the store back into all the storylines. Right. And, um, it definitely heats up in, in episode nine. It was good. Yeah. To get back to all the characters that we care about, even if they're all suffering. Exactly. In one way or another. Right. Yeah. I liked it a lot. And, um, and, uh, it is a lot of heartbreak, but you know, it's, you're just so much drama to dig into. Yeah.

[00:07:38] Oh yeah. Um, I mean so many plot points, uh, you know, that we could dive into, but. Well, where do you want to start? Um, well, why don't we start with the creepy Egan household and the opening scene before the credits? Um, you know, I thought, uh, Helena swimming when I heard her breathing like that. And in the water, it just kind of took me back to episode four where, you know, she, she

[00:08:08] was, when she awoke and during the orc bow, you know, as helly, um, you know, she was just like being drowned. Right. So it just kind of felt that same sort of way. And it was just sort of. Yeah. There was a feeling not like, oh, good. She's healthy and getting your exercise. It was more like, this feels like an ordeal somehow. Yeah. It didn't seem fun at all. And it's like her morning routine is. Yeah. Like a duty. Right. Right.

[00:08:36] Well, it even felt like a duty with that egg. My goodness. Absolutely. What the heck are we doing with the egg and the smallest pieces in the world? Right. I mean, so the, one interesting thing about this show is how the outside world contrasts with the world of the severance floor and how inside the severance floor, everything is so, um, symmetrical and orderly and, um, sterile. Yes.

[00:09:05] And I would say that her house is, feels more like that than any other outside place. It's more of a richy lush version of it, but still like, you know, cause it's all about the cult and how she's sort of oppressed and expected to comply with Keir's wishes and everything else. Yeah. Oh, it's the worst man. It sounds like she lives with her dad. It looks like it. Yeah. Right. Because James is like up there waiting for her for breakfast.

[00:09:34] And, um, there's this really awkward. Well, first of all, Helena is completely cheap. I don't know if you noticed it, but she just walks like a robot up the steps. I definitely perceive her as a completely different character than Helly, which is a testament to, I think, Britt Lauer's acting, I guess. Yeah. And she, she almost bows before her father, you know, before she sits down to eat.

[00:10:02] And, um, it's just, uh, the whole scenario is just so creepy. And then of course the, the whole egg and what there's a lot of egg theory out there. I don't know if you know about some of that or doved in, dived into any of that, but only that, you know, in the first episode of the series, one of the questions that, uh, Mark

[00:10:27] asked Helena when she was on that conference room table is what was Mr. Egan's breakfast. Yeah. And she didn't know. And then in episode two, they flashed back to Helena. We didn't know that at the time, but it was her with Milchick. Yeah. And he said, like, do you know, did you know that Mr. Egan ate five raw eggs for breakfast or whatever? Right. And she goes, yeah, so I've heard. And, you know, back then we didn't know that when she said, so I've heard it's because she's

[00:10:55] like, yeah, my father does the same thing and makes me eat it too, or something like that, you know? Right. Right. But I think that was just a test at the time Milchick was saying that to her. So then Mark could ask her the question later and make sure that she didn't remember it. Yeah. Yeah. But like the, the one theory is, you know, how Gemma is down there on the testing floor and we see, she goes through six different testing rooms or severances.

[00:11:22] Uh, and, um, so, uh, the egg, the eggs are split into six equal pieces and they're supposed to kind of symbolize, um, the six different fragments of like consciousness. Um, so, which is kind of, kind of cool. I just love how intentional Dan Erickson or, um, you know, uh, the creators and, and the

[00:11:50] writers are with, with all of this, but you know, who knows how much of it is, but there, how much of it is actually true. But it, it's just so interesting when you just kind of dive into all the theories about that. And then. At the very least, I think it's, it's an echo of it. Like this egg is severed. You can't argue that. Exactly. You know, it's severed into six equal parts and she takes great care in making sure the child is seen in the middle. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:20] Being held down to his chair by adults. Right. Just like she's seems to be controlled all the time. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, that was, uh, that was definitely interesting. So. Um, what else about that? Or did you have more to say about her place and everything? No, that was, that was all. I just kind of wanted to highlight some of the egg theories I saw out there. I love it. Online. Uh, just a couple other little things about it.

[00:12:47] So she says, uh, we're seeing Mr. Bailiff to her father. That's Irving Bailiff. Yes. So I think she means we've sent our enforcer Bert out to pick up Irving. Yes. They're going to bring him here so he can wipe his mind or I don't know, send him down to the testing floor. Something. I don't know, but. It seemed ominous. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely sounds ominous. Um, who knows what they've, what they've got going on.

[00:13:17] I think it took me four times watching that to even realize that she was talking about Irving at the time, you know? Yeah. Really? I, this was the first time I realized for sure. Yeah. But, but just because I, I always, um, look at a transcript. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, it, uh, it was just real quick. You could, you totally miss it. But, um, also one other thing, Helena. So she's being driven somewhere and the camera pulls back and it lingers on the water tower

[00:13:47] with the Lumen logo. Mm hmm. And, um, it's felt like that was intentional and I don't know if it's sort of like, Oh, Lumen is controlling the water supply or something like that. I don't know. Hmm. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. I don't know. It might just be the water supply for the Lumen complex. Right. It only, it only made me think, wow, the building, their house is right next to the main headquarters, I guess, um, Lumen headquarters.

[00:14:17] It's like they live right there. That's pretty culty. Yeah. But, um, there is a lot of water in this season. Like this episode opens with her swimming laps. Irving tried to drown her. Yes. Um, the droplet is a thing of water. Um, there's a, I think there's a pool in front of the building. I don't know if that's intentional or meaningful at all. Hmm. I hadn't thought about all that. You're right about the water. Um, yeah, we'll have to keep watching.

[00:14:42] I don't, I don't know if there's anything yet that we could, I mean, certainly we'll, we'll, uh, we'll make up some conspiracy theories about it. Yeah. Why not? It's a podcast. Um, did you watch the final episode recently? I have. Okay. So, you know, you have to not spoil it cause I have no memory of it. I'm not going to spoil it. Definitely won't. So I'll cut off throughout some theories that you'll probably know are going to be wrong. Yeah. It's okay.

[00:15:10] I'll pretend that I have no idea what you're talking about. That's perfect. Thank you. Pretend you're your innie. But I haven't watched it in a while. So, you know, details. No, that's what I meant. Yeah. I haven't watched it. I have watched it, but not for, you know, when did it come out a year ago? Yeah. That was when I watched it. Mm-hmm . So I don't remember much about it. I remember the scene that's about to happen in the birthing thing, which I loved. Yes. I was kind of disappointed we couldn't talk about that, but. Yeah. That'll be you and Karen.

[00:15:39] I thought that was this episode, actually. I did too. I thought that's what was going to be happening right now. Right. But yeah, that'll be me and Karen. Karen will be happy. Yes. She will. She will. So I'm going to talk about Milchick. Go for it. Because he's, he's having trouble with pretty much everyone he comes into contact with. I know. First, he, he sends, uh, Miss Huang, who we now know his first name is Eustace. Yes. To, it's the end of her fellowship.

[00:16:07] He gives her the bust of Keir Egan, just like the one Cobell got and hid her severed schematics inside. And now she's, Miss Huang's going to the Gunnel Egan Empathy Center in Svalbard, where she'll work to steward global reforms. So it seems like he's just trying to get her far away quickly, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, obviously she was surprised and she was expecting to stay there till the end of the quarter.

[00:16:38] So yeah, uh, obviously, well, she's been pushing the buttons in the last few episodes and, and kind of. So she's out of here. Pissing him off, uh, quite a bit. So I don't know if that's him that made that decision, but it's, it seems like it was, it was him driving it. And I don't know why he needs to get rid of her so soon. Do you know? I mean, do you have any idea why?

[00:17:02] Well, I think it's mostly because they take three years in between seasons and that actress is three years older now. Okay. Definitely ship her off. Right. Yeah. But in the story, I don't know. I mean, they didn't give us much to go on, but yeah, she's been pushing his buttons and I think he probably recommended, you know what? She's been doing great. I think she's ready. And I think what, where they could really use her is in Norway. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:17:32] As far away as possible. It sounds terrible. And then she gets a big bust of Keir. Yeah. Or whatever. That's what, yeah, that's what the, uh, I guess the, when you finish your, what is it called? Wintertide fellowship. Yeah. You get a bust of Keir. Yeah. And according to the handbook, she has to give up something. So he has her smash this little game. The only thing we've ever seen her do that seems actually human and he makes her destroy it. Yeah.

[00:18:01] What a nice sacrifice, right? Like that was my favorite game when I was a kid. I had one of those similar, similar things like that. I did too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Devour feculents, Milchick. Yeah. Devour feculents. Eat shit. So then, um, Hallie busts into his office demanding to know if Mark is coming in and is he okay? And she's kind of sassy with them. And I like this cause he's like, that's enough. Hallie R. And she's like, don't you mean Hallie E? Yes.

[00:18:30] Cause now she knows who she really is. And, um, he, he stays like he feigns confidence, but I think he does feel shaken. And it just made me feel like, okay, what if I was in Milchick's position and any Steve Jobs was my employee? Would I be able to tell him what to do? I don't think so. I love all your references to Apple, by the way, those are my favorite. Yeah. That's my, you know, basis. Cause that's where I work the most in the corporate world. Yeah.

[00:19:00] Yeah. I mean, definitely made me even wonder, is that Helena? Like she seemed to have such a attitude and sort of, and if you notice how it was shot, it was shot from, you know, he was sitting and she's standing. So there's already this sort of position of dominance that sort of has over him. Um, I think that was just to signify that she now knows who her Audi is. Yeah. And so that's given her a little bit of a leg up. Yeah.

[00:19:28] He can't pull that over her anymore for sure. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So then, um, well, there's extra pressure on him today because Mark, their best refiner took the day off and this big project, cold Harbor is supposed to be done today. We see Dr. Maurer monitoring Gemma and the cold Harbor Harbor progress screen. It's up to 96%. And it made me think, Oh, you know what? It's interesting. None of them can just go in and finish it up.

[00:19:55] Like, you know, if they could, then Milchick would be like, well, we're close. I'll just finish it. Right. But I guess whatever this is only severed people can do for some reason. Well, and specifically Mark is the only one that can do this. Right. That's true. Yeah. They don't tell the other ones cause that is weird. Cause I mean, we know that Mark's really good at it, but you would think they would just have the other people go in and push it along as far as they could. Yeah.

[00:20:21] I mean, obviously the Gemma connection, he has a way of, um, tapping into that, whatever that cold Harbor file is, uh, having her experience, uh, or whatever the personality type that is, is, is impacted by that. Um, you know, he's the only one and kind of makes sense knowing that, you know, he's her husband in essence. Yeah. That's true.

[00:20:51] Yeah. Their relationship seems to be important. Right. Whatever it is. Yeah. But it's so creepy. Uh, Dr. Mauer down there, you know, just sort of watching his, his girl. He's obviously got a crush on her. Yeah. Uh, right. And I mean, I don't want to get into this too much, but since you just brought it up, uh, Cobell later confirms that once cold, well, uh, once cold Harbor's over, Gemma's going to die. Yeah.

[00:21:19] And if you, in that Chick-I Bardo episode, Dr. Mauer seemed to, it seemed like he was going to try to steal her away or something. Yeah. You know, like he wanted her to be his girlfriend. I think he's definitely gone past the, uh, compliance of a doctor patient relationship for sure. Way, way past. Yeah. Yeah. So inappropriate. Hit on anyone you've kidnapped. Don't hit on them. Right.

[00:21:51] Uh, then, uh, last Drummond comes down on Milchick. Yes. What'd you think of all this exchange? Uh, yeah, this was, this is classic Dan Erickson writing and classic severance script writing. In my opinion, you know, he's like, first of all, he tries to be, you know, corporate and saying, thank you for the remonstration or remonstration or whatever the word is.

[00:22:17] And then Mr. Drummond's like, you need to take that back, uh, and apologize. And then, then he goes into the whole, I'm sorry. And blah, blah, blah. And, and I just love that. This is finally the tipping point for Milchick. I'm, I'm a Milchick. I know you don't like the character, but I actually, I see good in him. I do too.

[00:22:41] I, but he, uh, he, um, I'd say it's like 10 to 15%. Yeah. You know, right. It's there for sure. And I want it to grow, but I'm not going to, um, pretend that I think he's a standup guy. I think there's, it's like Darth Vader, you know, there's probably more good in him than there is in Darth Vader. But anyway, he has potential. I think he's been, I think he's been, he's been brainwashed in a sense, you know, by the

[00:23:09] cult and has bought in hook, line and sinker and has had to sort of play that role. And the cracks, you know, have gotten bigger and bigger for him. And I think he's finally, so I have empathy for him and I, I definitely, I mean, who knows what's going to happen in the next upcoming season or two, but, um, he's going to play a bigger role and, and becoming more of a hero in the story. I hope so.

[00:23:38] I mean, I feel that way about Helena too. Every time, half the time we see her outside, it feels like the focus is on how oppressed she is. So I would hope that means that she'll rebel at some point. And, um, Milchick, uh, he's, they, they just show him being an ass so much, but most, most of the time. Yeah. And this scene, I felt sympathetic for him and I felt that it was a triumphant moment

[00:24:05] when he said, devour, devour feculence. Uh, cause he's like had enough and he has such a good point. Like, Hey, I, it's not my job. I'm, I managed the innies. You're the one who does the outside stuff. So if he did, Mark didn't come to work, that's more of your fault. Um, but I also thought it was a notable that the, what Drummond is doing, he's forcing Milchick to apologize over and over again. And even his apologies aren't good enough.

[00:24:35] It's like this, um, just oppressive humiliation. That's exactly the same thing that Milchick did to who knows how many people in the break room. And he was forcing them to apologize over and over until they were broken. Right. And, and, and Milchick would never have stood for that. You can see that now. So I, I love that he stood up for himself, but the next step is to go, Oh, you know what? That's how I treat people that needs to change.

[00:25:01] And, and it just reminds me of how corporate corporate culture can be like where shit rolls downhill. You know, you take it from above and then you pass it down below. I think that's sort of a commentary on that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. To put that mono syllabically, it's not my fault. What Mark's got, what Mark's got does when he's at home. Yeah. I mean that whole, the writing on that is just, is, is so well done.

[00:25:29] And, and you know, Milchick, the actor, Trammell Tillman, just, he's just, he's just phenomenal in this role. He's perfect. Yeah. I would say. Yeah. Not a flaw in how he plays this role. Nope. So I, I had this sort of fantasy. What if we had Trammell Tillman on for an interview? And would I be able to be honest and say, you know what? I don't like your character very much, but you are the best. You know, it'd have to be like that. Yeah. You can do it. You can do it.

[00:26:00] He'll love you for that. He'll love you for that. I don't know. I think some actors take that kind of thing really well and others don't like it. They want their character to be liked even when they do bad things. Yeah. Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Are you going to come to your senses, Trammell? Well, come on, man. Yeah. Come on. What are you doing here? Well, I tend to confuse the real people, you know, the actor from the character.

[00:26:28] I remember when I was doing Walking Dead stuff and the first time I ever interviewed Melissa from The Walking Dead who plays Carol, I called her Carol multiple times. Right. I remember that now that you mentioned it. Yeah. It's hard. And I've done that before too. It's so embarrassing when you do that, but you know, you can't, sometimes it's hard to separate the two. Maybe that's because one of them's an innie and one of them's an outie. Who knows?

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[00:28:22] Oh, well, I found the Burton Irving story so heartbreaking. The two, those two guys, um, so many callbacks, you know, when they lean in and, um, put their heads together like they did in season one. Oh yeah. And the send off, um, you know, obviously there's a lot going on there. Um, first of all, Burt breaks into Irving's home. Not, not a good idea. So how did he do that?

[00:28:52] And, and is waiting for him reading his, I guess his, um, notes that he's been taking on Burt over the years. Burt Goodman. Yeah. On everybody. I think. Irving's had a lot of, yeah, notes about employees. Yeah. I wonder what Irving's like, what has he been doing on the outside other than painting black hallways and doors?

[00:29:14] I mean, I think he has been investigating Lumen and he, we still don't really know, but it's, he had a lot of notes on different Lumen employees. The black hallway is meant, we think to try to signal to his any, to look for this black hall. Yeah. And so, yeah, we, he's still a big mystery. Like why, why is he doing that?

[00:29:39] But, um, I think, uh, anyway, yeah, he had notes on a bunch of different employees, but Burt was just more interested in what he had to say about him in particular. Yeah. And then Irving's been calling someone. I wonder. Right. To report on, you know, we don't know who he's been calling. He could be a member of some agency that's wants to investigate Lumen or something.

[00:30:03] Yeah. Uh, no idea, no idea. But, um, and then when he, I found it interesting how Irving was just so willing to go with Burt in the car and, uh, let him lead him and, and, um, his dog away radar, um, to the, you know, let's go for a drive. I, I, you know, I guess it felt very Sopranos.

[00:30:27] It did. It did. Yeah. Uh, and then when they're in the car, uh, Burt is kind of confessing that he drove people away without asking questions, but he's not at fault for that because he didn't actually do anything to them, but. You know, Bit of a rationalization.

[00:30:46] Yeah. Yeah. You would say that for sure. Um, and, and, and I think that, that really goes along with, um, this whole sequence. So you find out that Burt, we know any Burt was the head of optics and design, but we knew from, uh, Irving's dinner with Burt and fields that Audi Burt was a scoundrel.

[00:31:09] Yeah. And that if you can believe them, that they only did the severed procedure because they wanted him to have an innocent soul that could go to heaven and be with fields. And that really goes along with what we learned today. Like he even said to Irving, I wanted to be innocent. I wanted to have some innocence or something.

[00:31:26] Yeah. And so then learning that his outside job was to drive people to their doom. I mean, it's about disappearing people from what we, we could tell that goes along with him being a scoundrel, you know? Yeah. I, he seems to still be very much the scoundrel. There's a lot more going on. And obviously if, if in the beginning of the episode, Helena mentioned, we're going to, we're going to go get bailiff or what?

[00:31:56] What was it she said? Exactly. I can't remember the word. They're bringing in bailiff. They're bringing in bailiff. So, but it seems like Burt, do you think Burt was trying, is working for the Eagans or do you think that he's trying to save Irving from the Eagans and sending him far away?

[00:32:17] Yeah. I, I, I don't think we know for sure, but my guess is he's the guy that goes and gets people for Lumen and maybe they told him to go get Irving and he knew what that meant for Irving. So instead of bringing him back to the factory or wherever, he put him on a train far away to save him. Okay. There you go. So I think he did do that to save him. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:44] I think he put himself in danger. Like Irving says, aren't they going to be after you? And Burt doesn't really answer that. Yeah. Yeah. That relationship is a really, really interesting one. And I think one that sticks out to me as one of the core storylines in, in, in all of, in all of separance to me.

[00:33:02] I mean, they all have a very interesting plotline, the main four characters in MDR, but, but Irving's is a very interesting one. Um, there's just a lot of hurt and woundedness there between both of them. Um, and they, they act so well together. I think they're very close friends in real life. I mean, they're legends, Turturro and Christopher Walken.

[00:33:23] Yeah. Yeah. They're just so good, um, in their roles and how they act that together and, and how Irving, how they slowly move in that scene in the train station where they slowly move closer and closer together in that dialogue. And, and so believable, uh, how Irving is just like, I'm ready. I'm ready. And Burt just can't, you know, because he has a role to play.

[00:33:48] He seemed tempted. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, yeah. I, so I liked the scene a lot. I remember thinking, I thought it meant that was the end for John Turturro on this show, but apparently he's going to be back for season three. I can't imagine. I can't imagine that he would, that would be the end. It might be the end for Burt. It might be. Yeah. I mean, they're big actors, you know, they were like, okay, we did our little TV thing, but now it's back to movies.

[00:34:14] Yeah, exactly. I mean, who knows, who knows, but, but I'd like to think that they, there's a place for both of them to come back and, um, there's plenty more unanswered questions that we, we need to know. So, so. Yeah. Because you're right. This is one of the core stories, but I feel like among the four, it's been paid less attention to, had less screen time.

[00:34:41] Yeah. And I'd like to see more, especially about what Irving's up to, like we were talking about a minute ago. So, um, if you don't have anything more on that, I wanted to bring up the two more, uh, main storylines of the, I do have more on that. Okay. Okay. Go, go through that a little bit. Okay. Just a little bit. Let's see. Um,

[00:35:01] it played as if they were almost as if they were any Burt and Irving. I have to really make myself not say Burt and Ernie every time.

[00:35:12] I know me too. Um, cause you know, it seemed like they were already lovers and, and Irving doesn't want to leave Burt and he's acting kind of like they already have a history and it's more like, oh, they've had a brief flirtation, but they know they have potential for more. And I think that writers tried to accommodate for that by having Irving say, I've never been loved before. And I want that in my life. Yeah.

[00:35:36] Um, at least he has a beautiful dog, right? Karen, if you're listening, but, um, but you know, it felt that didn't totally do it for me. It still felt like, oh, this is a bit much given that they've just shared a dinner together. You know what? I can, I can understand. I can see that there. There it's a little bit hard to believe that they could grow that close that quickly and have this sort of connection like they did.

[00:36:06] Yeah. That's all I'm saying. I mean, I don't want to worry about it too much, but that's what I was thinking about when I was watching it a little bit. Yeah. Um, it did seem, they did seem to move fast in their relationship for sure. Especially since he's Bert's still married to fields. Yeah, that's true. So, uh, huh. I don't know. Uh, maybe, I mean, when, yeah, when Bert said, I can't, I could think of two reasons. One is he's already married, but he said, you know, he seemed pretty open to cheating already.

[00:36:36] But the big reason is I think he's, that's what he's there to do is save this guy's life. And so if he stays in his life, then he might have to hurt him or get him, put him in danger or something like that. Yeah. So there's goodness in Bert, you know, he's helping his guy. There is. Yeah. I think there's goodness in every one of these. I mean, I think one of the things I really like about you in general is that you really see the nuance in all of these characters.

[00:37:03] There's really not anyone. I think that we can't feel some sort of, I don't know, maybe Jane Egan. Yeah. So far I would say Jane, but thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Uh, you know, yeah. So I, I think, um, I think there's a lot to Bert that, uh, we could still understand, learn to understand.

[00:37:26] And I think he plays a big role, but yeah, I'm with you on the Irving and Bert. Um, it was, if it was a, let's say if it had been a little bit more of like a level five or six, but it did seem a little bit like more like a level eight or nine in the,

[00:37:41] Yeah. Like they were inside. Yeah. And then the only other little nitpick I had with this, but it was kind of fun is so Bert says, you want to go for a ride with me? And then he's like, you know, I used to drive people basically saying I'd drive people and then they would disappear.

[00:37:57] Yeah. And, um, Irving says, is that what today is? And I feel like it's a bit of like narrative license that Bert didn't say, Oh no, no, I'm, I'm saving you. He just didn't say anything. And that's for us to worry about Irving. But if I was Irving, I'd be like, why didn't you tell me you were bringing me to the train station? I was about to piss my pants. But anyway, I don't know. Nitpicks. Nitpicks. Nitpicks. That's all right. We can nitpick a lot of things. A little bit. Yeah.

[00:38:25] I have to look at my nitpick notes to see what I'm going to bring up. But, um, So what you were wanting to move on to something else? Yeah. I really want to talk about the two other lead storylines, the Dylan and then Dylan's storyline. And then of course, Mark and Devin and Cobell. Um, which one do you want to talk about first? Um, I, why don't we each pick one?

[00:38:54] So you pick the one you like best. Oh, okay. And I'll do the other one. Okay. Well, let's start with Dylan first. Cause I think, um, the Mark Devin is a, it's a pretty beefy one. Um, and you can, you can take that one. And that kind of takes us to the end of the episode. But anyway, I probably felt, you know, while I did feel for Bert and Irving, I really felt for Dylan in this. Not Audi Dylan. Audi Dylan is an ass.

[00:39:24] Uh, any Dylan can be an ass, but he's got a big, big heart. And obviously that's what Gretchen sees in him. And that's why they kissed. And, um, that's why they're connecting so well is because Dylan is, Dylan is the, the Dylan G is, is who she really loves and wants to see more of on the outside.

[00:39:47] But Audi Dylan wasn't having it and just basically said another one of his, well, what I find interesting is they say, they say fuck a lot. Like he says fuck more than anybody else, uh, on this show. And he always delivers the best fuck lines, uh, in my opinion. I think, I think he said some, another great fuck line, uh, today in this, in this episode.

[00:40:15] But, um, when, when he finds out that Gretchen kisses her, uh, kisses him and, um, but you know, he storms off, does his passive aggressive manipulation. Uh, well, I'm just going to quit then and takes off. And then of course the scene in the room, any Dylan and Gretchen, um, you know, and Dylan proposing with his, um, finger trap ring. So sad.

[00:40:45] So sad and pathetic. I was thinking like, it's sort of, um, common for people to have these situations where you feel someone pulling away and then you just do some desperate gesture to try to hold on to love. I've heard of that happening. I've never experienced that myself, but. Not to that extent. No, no, I don't. I, I'm just kidding.

[00:41:14] I've, I've probably had something like that happen once or twice. Maybe. I don't know. What are your stories? I want to hear. I want to hear. Hell no. That's a whole different podcast. No, I mean, also like that, the breakup. Right. So it is, he says you were my whole life or something like that. It's totally true. And, and then, and she, like you said, she loves him too. He's like Dylan was when they first met.

[00:41:40] And, and it's just so sad because, you know, if circumstances were different, they would make a wonderful pair. Um, although you got to think when the honeymoon period was over, maybe he would just turn into what he was. Eventually. Right. But, but anyway, like I, I just felt so, um, sad for them and for him and her too. Like she's her, Barrett Weaver is brilliant. Just crying and saying, I'm sorry. And walking out. Yeah.

[00:42:05] And, you know, breakups in my life, I will say have like one or two in particular, probably the most pain I've ever felt. Yeah. You know, it's just so hard. And they really evoked that in this scene. It's, and then you see Dylan afterwards, he's just like, I find I'm going to quit, which is suicide for an any. And it reminded me of Bert after Ernie, I mean, Erving, dang it.

[00:42:32] It reminded me of Irving after Bert retired and they had that same quality of, well, there goes my reason for living, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it really conveys a real scenario when you know, you can't, you're not enough for this person and this person has to walk away and, and do what she has to do. Um, but in this case, I think he is enough.

[00:43:01] I think she, she just, the circumstance, it's a Romeo and Juliet situation, you know? Yeah. They want to be together, but they can't. Exactly. I mean, there's a few of those. There's, I was thinking about how in this series there's, um, multiple sets of lovers kept apart by messed up circumstances orchestrated by Lutman. So there's Audi, Mark and Gemma because they disappeared. Gemma. There's any Dylan and Gretchen here. Cause she's married to his Audi.

[00:43:26] There's any Irving and any Bert because Bert retired and Irving got fired and now they need neither one of them even exist. Um, Audi Irving and Audi Bert cause Bert is married and Irving has to hide out. Um, kind of any Mark and Heli because Mark has a wife, Audi. Mark has a wife and, um, even a little bit with Cobell and that ether huffer guy. Cause Lumen ruined his town and hired her away.

[00:43:52] And, um, yeah, so it's just a lot of Lumen messing things up for lovers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no doubt. It's, it's just a whole bunch of heartbreak storylines for sure.

[00:44:07] Um, and I, I gotta think that what, what is the, I guess the reason they brought, they brought Gretchen in was to keep Dylan there so that Dylan wouldn't leave because he threatened to leave. Right. Cause he just kept, after he saw his son, he just kept fixating on, I want to know more about my outside life. Yeah.

[00:44:32] And so they gave him that Milchek sets this whole thing up in, in no time, by the way, lickety split. This thing is created. Right. Um, and, uh, did they think ahead? Do they think ahead? I think they, they're, they're kind of idiots sometimes. These Lumen, like they don't really think many steps ahead because it sort of falls apart. Right. Like what? They treat them like children. Let's give them this lollipop and they'll be fine.

[00:45:01] They, they, they, they don't see them as real people that have any agency whatsoever, but they are like, that's the, that's the big mistake that Lumen keeps making with these guys is there. And, and you know, this season, it kind of crystallized for me. Maybe one reason for that is the whole, their whole ethos is about avoiding pain or trying not to have to experience pain.

[00:45:27] So if the severed procedure is a solution for that, then you have to think of the innies as not people. Cause they're the ones bearing all the pain. You know, but it's just not true. They are, they're just as much a person as the other, the Audis. Yeah, exactly. So, um, and then the scream, the way he screams Gretchen at the end on his knees, it's just, it's just so good and so heartbreaking and sad, but, um, so well.

[00:45:56] I could almost picture her out in the hall going, Oh my God. Right. Right. Exactly. What I don't understand though, is I don't think I would choose to resign. Like if I'm Dylan, I have hope that she's going to come, that somehow, I mean, it's, if he quits and leaves, then she's stuck. Gretchen is stuck with Audi Dylan who, you know, uh, I don't know.

[00:46:24] I, I don't know if I would have resigned there. I mean, I think he's more focused on his own experience. Yeah. It's just like, I discovered this love and now it's gone and I have nothing. Yeah. All I have is pencil erasers and finger traps. Finger traps. Yeah. That's all I got. And, and maybe a waffle party every, every quarter. That's probably the biggest. Yeah. Which by the way, I mean, what the, what the hell? I mean, you're married, you're getting a waffle party. Like I don't, that doesn't.

[00:46:54] Yeah. It doesn't seem right. No. That's really out of left field too, by the way. Right. Again, another nitpick. But if we, I think I'm going to, I haven't really said this on this podcast, but I think I'm going to separate out all these shows that we're covering into their own separate podcasts, but we will also keep wax episodic too. So there'll be in both places. Oh, because I just think that with a separate podcast, fans are more likely to try it.

[00:47:21] And so I'm only bringing that up right now because this, the severance podcast will definitely be called waffle party. Yes. All right. I love it. I'm glad you're severing the podcasts. Yeah. I'm going to sever them all off. Yeah. It's amazing. Into equal parts that should be appreciated equally. Absolutely. So I, I had a couple more points on Dylan and Gretchen.

[00:47:43] One, um, I, so to bring a little bit of that nuance to that, you were just talking about, I, Dylan flipped out. And I mean, looking at that argument with Gretchen and Audi Dylan, like, yeah, he was a total ass. Um, but I understand like he, she just basically told him I had an affair because you're not enough.

[00:48:08] And instead of hearing what, like we can see it from our own detached view and think she's just telling you, she wants you, you know, she wants you to be like you were, and she loves you. And, and she wants to have what you guys had back. But what he hears is you weren't good enough for me. So I messed around with somebody else. And it's just kind of, um, sad. And, you know, it makes me think about how I'm, I can be defensive sometimes.

[00:48:38] And I just wish I had that perspective in the moment, you know? Well, if, if I was in Dylan's shoes, um, my ego would be just torn apart. And I think I would too. I might, I might be an ass as well. I might totally storm off, uh, to be honest. So, but I think I would, the next day I would think about it and then come back. Exactly. Okay.

[00:49:00] Get your senses together, put the ego down, humble yourself and say, all right, you know, I still, I want to make this work. So. And, and that's the thing, like Dylan, he, you could say he quits, but really he requests to quit. And, um, I love the form like reasons for resignation, boredom, anger, fatigue, loneliness, guilt, shame, annoyance. He, he checks them all.

[00:49:28] Um, Milchik tells him that reeks of ingratitude. See, he's always giving me reasons not to like him. Um, and the, and, but I mean, his Audi has to okay that. And right now we know his Audi, if you can believe him is in a position to okay it. Cause he was just threatening to quit. But he also needs that job. So I don't think we can take it for granted that, that Dylan's not going to just be back the next day. Right. Yeah.

[00:49:54] Dylan, that, that scene was part of the, when he goes up the elevator or we, it looks like he's, he's leaving. Yeah. Um, that's part of the whole montage with, uh, with Eustace Wong leaving and Irving leaving. And right. I mean, that's a, that's a pretty epic, uh, scene by the way that the whole montage of those guys. Sort of leaving and ending, you know, something. Um, the music on that by the way is just great. It's amazing. Yeah. And yeah.

[00:50:24] And you wonder what it means for the future of the show. Like, you know, does that mean we won't have Irving or Dylan or Miss Wang next season? And I think it just means we won't have Miss, Miss Wang. Who are you most sad about? Miss Wang? Miss Wang not being back? Uh, who would I be most? Probably Dylan. He's my favorite. Yeah. Those three. Yeah. Agreed. But I think Dylan and Irving will be back. I don't think Miss Wang will be back. That's my prediction. Okay. Yeah.

[00:50:52] But Miss Wang was, was like, I think she was 19 or 18 when that was filmed. A lot of people say she was 16, but I think by the end she was like 18. So maybe she might be. Pull it off. Yeah. Maybe she'll come back. Uh, maybe I liked her too. Yeah. She was great. Well, she's going to the same place. Cobell apparently, uh, completed or is well, no, no, I didn't go to Svalbard. She didn't go to empathy school. No, no, she needed to. She should have. Yeah. Everybody. Yeah.

[00:51:22] Milchick could use a couple of courses. Yeah. I need to go to empathy school. No, you're, you're very empathetic. Thank you. Um, the last, the last thing is it was kind of sad seeing Merritt Weaver because, uh, I don't know if you know this, but on, I'm still doing walking dead cast and we're like two and a half years into a full rewatch. Wow. Walking dead. That's we're in season six right now, right at the end. Negan's about to show up next week for the first time.

[00:51:49] And just an episode or two ago, we lost Denise also played by Merritt Weaver. So it reminded me of her seeing her on screen again right now. Oh, that's, that's awful, man. That's awful to see her, see her leave in two, two places on two different shows. I know. I gotta find out what else she's on. Yes. So maybe she'll have a happier ending in those. Right. Hast du das Gefühl, nicht nur an alles denken zu müssen, sondern auch für die Gefühle und Bedürfnisse aller verantwortlich zu sein?

[00:52:17] Immer auffangen, vermitteln, mitfühlen und dabei selbst zu kurz kommen? Dann kennst du Emotional Load. In meinem Podcast Kein Mädchen für alles, raus aus der Harmoniefalle erfährst du, warum diese unsichtbare Belastung entsteht und wie du dich davon lösen kannst. Mit konkreten Impulsen, neuen Perspektiven und praktischen Lösungen für deinen Alltag. Ich bin Laura Fröhlich, hör jetzt mal rein. Ein perfekter Frühlingstag. Alluf! Sonne. Alluf! Park. Alluf! Picknick.

[00:52:47] Und so viele Pollen. Shop Apotheke sagt Tschüss Allergie und Hallo Frühling. Hier findest du alles, um unbeschwert durch die Allergiezeit zu kommen. Als Neukunde sparst du sogar 10% ab 35 Euro Bestellwert. Mit dem Code NEU10. Du hast ein E-Rezept? Einfach Shop Apotheke App runterladen und direkt einlösen. Gutscheinbedingungen auf shop-apotheke.com. Verwandle deine Leidenschaft mit Shopify in ein Business. Und knack Umsatzrekorde. Mit dem Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion.

[00:53:17] Du hast richtig gehört. Der Checkout mit der weltweit besten Conversion. Der legendäre Checkout von Shopify vereinfacht das Shoppen auf deiner Website bis hin zu Social Media und überall dazwischen. Na, das ist Musik für deine Ohren. Wie du es auch drehst und wendest, mit Shopify kannst du zu einem echten Hit werden. Starte deinen Test noch heute für nur einen Euro pro Monat auf shopify.de. Okay, let's move on to Mark, Devin, and Cobell.

[00:53:48] You can drive. Go ahead. I don't need to. No, get your points out. I'm sure you'll cover most of mine. You're so good. Well, let's see. I'll jump in. So, Devin's driving Mark. I mean, he's really messed up because he just had brain surgery. But I love this exchange. He goes, this is a mistake. And she goes, I'm sorry, the wind was whistling over the hole in the back of your skull. So, I didn't quite get that. Did you just call my plan a fucking mistake? Devin, man. So good.

[00:54:16] Jen Tulloch, who plays Devin, is the best. Yeah. She hasn't done much, but I want to see her in more. Yeah. Yeah. She's so good. Those lines she delivers are the best. Especially when she's with Michael Chernus, Rickon. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if she even likes Rickon. You know, sometimes she's so annoyed by him. Why are you with this guy? They're an odd couple. Yeah. Yeah. Because he's very pretentious and she's very not. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:45] But, you know, they're the one non-tragic couple so far, at least. Mm-hmm. You know? So far. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking Lumen, they're not also the ones that are not involved with Lumen, but now Rickon's getting involved. So, I hope that doesn't spell trouble for them. Well, it seems like Rickon's, it might be being tempted by more book publishing deals. Right. And who knows where that relationship will go. Who knows?

[00:55:14] But I love the dynamic between Mark and Devin. Those two play brother and sister so well. So well. Yeah. I know. It makes me wish I had a sister. I actually- I'm an only child. So. I had a brother who's my half-brother that I grew up with. And about 10 years ago, I found out that I had three sisters. No. And I met them all in my 40s. What? Crazy, right? That's crazy. They're all here in the Bay Area.

[00:55:44] And, you know, I didn't really keep touch with two of them, but one of them, we became friends and we hang out and stuff. It's pretty cool. Oh, man. I need to go on a tangent with you and learn more about that. That's crazy. My wife loves this show from like 2008. I can't remember what it's called, but it's like this British show where people look for their lost loves. It was like right before the iPhone and you could kind of Google search and find people.

[00:56:12] And it was, it's like so beautiful the way the show kind of finds long lost relatives and siblings and- Love that. Yeah. So I wonder what that was like for you. I'm sure it was pretty emotional. It was amazing. Yeah. Um, also just since we're on a tangent, I'll mention one more thing. There's this podcast called heavyweights where this guy finds people with unresolved things from their past and helps them find the people and get a resolution basically.

[00:56:42] And it's amazing. And he's really funny. He used to be a producer on this American life. I highly recommend that podcast to anyone. Wow. Heavyweight. So a heavyweight is coming off. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like boxing, but yeah. Yeah. You got it. That's cool. So back to Mark Devon and Cole. So Cobel arrives and, um, I think she was deliberately trying to channel Selvig when she first, she was like, Oh, how are you Mark? Mark. And that didn't work at all.

[00:57:10] And, uh, cause he doesn't trust her. And he says, uh, he says, what does he say? Oh my God. So good. My wife's being held prisoner at Lumen and I just got brain surgery in my basement. How've you been? How about you? And I was thinking like, I don't blame him at all for not trusting her.

[00:57:31] I think as a viewer, given that we've seen more of her story, I think I trust him a little bit more than, than, um, I mean, I trust her a little bit more than he does, but I still don't completely trust her because I know that his goal is just to get Gemma back. Yeah. And her goal, I don't know for sure what it is. I, I know she's like mad at Lumen, but does she still want to prove herself to them or does she want to like mess up their stuff or what? We don't really know. Right. Yeah.

[00:57:59] So yeah, I, it sounds like about Gemma. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't care about any of that. She, she cares about the procedure, uh, I guess. And, um, maybe finding a brand new footing or, uh, maybe it's a power play of. You know, gaining control back. I mean, who knows who Cobell is?

[00:58:21] She could be, uh, she could be an Egan or she could be, uh, related in some way to, uh, Kier, uh, or who knows, um, who knows what her background. But Rigabi, as soon as she knew Cobell was going to be involved, she just took off. Right. She knows her probably better than anyone. So yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, but on the other hand, on the other, other hand, like Devin's like, Hey, we don't really have many choices here. And she probably has a good point.

[00:58:49] So I think it's probably smart of her to try to calm Mark down and say, look, let's give this a shot. I guess. Yeah. What else are they going to do? Exactly. Exactly. They got no other options at this point. Yep. So, uh, let's see. She brings up the, the file and says, if Mark has completed it, Gemma's dead. And that was the first time we really got confirmation about that. That's what I want to know. Like how would she be dead?

[00:59:18] Well, they put her down for sure. But yeah, like I, uh, like I said, uh, who was it? Milchick? No. Um, somebody who was working with Dr. Maurer in the Chick-Eye Bardo episode. In Chick-Eye Bardo. Um. Was it Drummond? Yeah, it might've been. Yeah. I think it was Drummond. I'm not sure exactly, but someone told him, you know, when this is over, you're going to have to say goodbye to her. And we wondered if that meant they would kill her.

[00:59:45] And I think that's what Cobel was suggesting that they would kill her because they can't really let her go. She'll tell everyone what happened. Well, yeah. Everyone outside thinks she's dead. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So then, um, Cobel takes them to the birthing retreat with Mark hidden in the trunk. And she tells the gatekeeper, Devin's one of James, no one's to know. And I, it sounds like you took that the same way I did that James has mistresses that he gets pregnant and sends there.

[01:00:14] But I don't know. I mean, it seemed to be very clear that when she said, this is one of James and she's basically trying to connect with the security guard who obviously has seen many of James, uh, mistresses come through there.

[01:00:34] I don't know if it's a common, common thing. What the hell is going on?

[01:01:04] Um, well, you, you probably looked this up, but. Yeah. I, I looked it up a little bit. Um, the after hours is the name of the episode is also the name of the twilight zone. Um, uh, a twilight zone episode, season one, episode 34, which involves a woman shopping for a gold thimble. And she finds Marsha white. Yeah. Marsha white who finds herself trapped in a department store after hours and is revealed to be a mannequin.

[01:01:34] Very interesting. Right. Um, it makes me want to watch that show, that episode. She forgot. Yeah. Me too. I was learning about this today and I didn't have enough time to watch it, but she, she, I guess she discovers that she's a mannequin. I do have a vague memory of having watched this like as a kid or something though. Yeah. The twilight zone was like one of my favorites and especially the eighties version of the twilight zone. I just, that was the best, um, as a kid.

[01:02:02] Um, but yeah, cobell references the gold thimble, um, when getting past the guard. Um, and of course the mannequin is parallel to the any Audi split. And I guess she didn't know she was a mannequin in the twilight zone. She forgot. Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that specific detail. Yeah. That's what I read. Yeah. Obviously it's a, it's a callback to that or an honor, a tribute to, to that. Um, so yeah, um, that's very interesting. Another little.

[01:02:31] And I think it's just in story meant to be like a passphrase or something. That's. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't think. You know, the secret code or something. Right. It's not like that's the answer to everything in this whole series. Maybe. Maybe it is. Who the hell knows, man? I don't, I don't know. But, um, back to, before they go, before you move into when they get to the birthing center, um, I found a, there was one moment that made me kind of do a deep dive and kind of go on

[01:03:01] a rabbit trail, but it was when Mark had to call Milchek and, and ask for the day off or tell him he was sick. But then Milchek wasn't having it and he had to just fess up and say, I'm just not coming in, man. Right. Right. But, um, do you, if you notice Milchek, uh, they take a shot of Milchek and he's looking at the iceberg picture. Have you guys talked about the iceberg? No. Another water thing though, but. Another water. Yes.

[01:03:30] Know what to make of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the symbolism is like the first thing I thought of was tip of the iceberg. Right. Um, uh, only the, you know, a small fraction of an iceberg shows. Well, it, he's like glancing up there. And to me, it, it sort of represents that, that there's so much more going on for these Audis than, than is really being, being shown. Right.

[01:03:56] So it's, it's, uh, it's the tip of the iceberg of what Lumen is actually doing. Um, what's the company's real agenda, you know? Um, and I don't know if you've ever heard, I did do a dive on this. Um, have you ever heard of Freud's iceberg model of the mind? I don't think so. Yeah. But I imagine it has something to do with that, that there's a lot going on underneath. Right.

[01:04:22] Like where the visible tip represents conscious behavior and the submerged mass represents the unconscious. Okay. So it just kind of, it's just another symbolism. I just thought it was kind of a fun little nod to a whole bunch of stuff. Just having that little iceberg, a small picture, by the way, for that room, it's definitely too, too small. Yeah. That makes me want to go back and watch that again, but I do get the sense. Yeah.

[01:04:48] That we're still just seeing like the surface of what's really going on with all this. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, but back to the birthing cabin, you were going to go in there. Yeah. So they go in and any Mark wakes up and he's freaking out and Devin leads him to Cobell and says, she just wanted to talk and says, do you remember the last thing you said to me? And he says, she's alive. Yeah.

[01:05:14] Which just to remind people during the whole overtime contingency, when Andy Mark woke up at Rickon's book reading party, he saw, he learned that Audi Mark was mourning his wife, but then he saw a picture of the wedding and recognized Miss Casey there. Yeah, exactly. And that's when he ran out and screamed, she's alive. And that's the last thing he said to Devin.

[01:05:44] So, yeah. So we knew, of course, that that was any Mark then. And then obviously that sets up a hugely anticipation, a lot of anticipation about what's going to happen. What is what's next? What's next? And when it was great to see that final shot of Cobell in front of that fire, it just looks so fierce and scary. Yes. Yes. It's very, very dramatic finish.

[01:06:14] And I was so upset that I had to wait a week to watch the next episode. I know I kept thinking that conversation was coming up and then I saw the time running out and I'm like, well, I don't think it's coming up until next week. Yep. There it is. Yeah. But it definitely sets up all the storylines for a whole bunch of shit to go down next week. Yeah. Well, one other little thing. Actually, we'll just consider it. No. Do you have any like random notes or anything?

[01:06:43] Um, man, I felt like we covered a ton, so I don't have anything. Nope. Okay. I just had a couple. Um, we see Hellie memorizing the directions to the black hallway after she fails to get Dylan to help her. Yes. And he's being an asshole to her. So any Dylan has the capacity to be a dick. Yeah, that's true. He does. Anyways.

[01:07:08] Um, I was sort of wondering why she didn't just carry the paper with her. Yeah. And why is she, who's letting her stay that long? Like Milchick is completely like not managing the second floor. He's got enough to deal with, I guess. I guess. Uh, yeah, that's a good question though. But I, I like, why, why do you need to memorize the instructions? You're not going in. Maybe she thought. Yeah. Why doesn't she just do it? Like instead of talking about it with you. Yeah.

[01:07:38] But then, yeah. James Egan comes in and says, you tricked me. And she says, or he goes, my Hellie. And she goes, what the fuck? And, uh, I think he's talking about during the overtime contingency, right? That's when she tricked him. Yes. Hellie tricked him into thinking that she was Helena. And then she went out on stage and said, uh, the innies are suffering. Yes. This is his first opportunity to talk to Hellie. Yeah.

[01:08:05] Um, you know, the, the, it'll be interesting to see how Hellie deals with this oppressive overbearing father. Right. I don't think she's going to take his crap. Oh, no doubt. No doubt. She is, she is mad as hell and she's on a mission, but, um, but yeah, you're right. I'm kind of still stuck on what you just said. Like, why didn't you just start walking down the hallway and trying to hit the turns? Take it with you.

[01:08:34] I was trying to, did you pause it to see the instructions? And did you? Well, I think Karen read it last time. It was like left, left, right. Oh yeah. Left, left, right. It wasn't. Where does it start though? Does it start? Um, it says, um, from DAD or something like that. Was it O and D maybe? I think it was from O and D. Oh, that's what it was. Okay. From O and D. So she would have to get to O and D first and then start going. Yeah. Left and right. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:03] Uh, a couple other notes. Uh, one thing I was thinking about last week's episode that I didn't, um, mention because I want to find reasons why it might be, have been necessary, even though it wasn't that enjoyable is it was so depressing and drab, but I think that's kind of important to see in the series because Lumen has this mythology about itself, about all the good it's doing in the world.

[01:09:31] And here we get to see the actual truth of at least one part of what it's doing, using a handful of people, using them up and then leaving them in ruins. So it needed to feel like this is the impact of this company. You know, it's like not fun, is it? Like this is, yeah, right. And this is where it's heading. And to be honest, Kier already feels a little bit like that. You know, it just feels like. Yeah, it does. Yeah. I mean, if you, even if you look at. Bloodless. Yeah.

[01:10:00] Like the train station had a few like cars scattered around and yeah, there were people, but they, did you notice the people in the train station were like dressed in the, like they were in the fifties, you know, wearing hats and you know. So weird. It's very timeless. The whole thing is just very interesting, but yeah, the town just feels very empty and soulless already. So. True. Yeah. And, and sort of dominated by Lumen already. Yeah.

[01:10:30] Yeah. It's a Lumen town. Yeah. It's a Lumen town. So then I wanted to mention a few episodes back, I did a whole segment on liminal spaces, which are just like in between places and things that are centered around that. And there's a big one back rooms that has since come out the movie and is a huge hit. It's the concept is from an online creepypasta, which basically is just like a meme that's

[01:11:00] scary or weird. And it was just showing this yellow weird room that looked kind of off, but you can't exactly put your finger on why. And so this young guy made a whole YouTube series about it. But the back rooms, he was like 16 or 17 making these YouTube videos. That was one of the inspirations for severance that who's the guy, Dan Erickson. He said he was partly inspired by that series. And now this kid directed this movie. He's 20 years old.

[01:11:29] He just turned 21. He's the youngest director ever to have a number one movie in the, in the theater. And it's a very Gen Z thing. You know, he's, but I went to the movie and it was like a lot of young guys in there watching it. So it's kind of everybody in Hollywood's paying attention to this YouTube kid who's made this movie that beat out the star Wars movie. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy, man. Um, I asked my boys who are 26 and 24, if they've are, are even interested and they love severance. Like we watched all of severance together.

[01:11:59] Um, and, uh, they haven't gotten into back rooms, but, um, but they're too old now. They're too old. Yeah. Mid twenties. What the? Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was interesting. It was definitely weird, but I'm already into that kind of a thing. Um, me too. Weird. Weird. I need to go see it. Twilight zone. Really? It is. Yeah. I think you'd like it. There's another one. Um, that's based on a video game. Um, Exudate. Exudate. Yeah.

[01:12:29] Yeah. I thought that too. Similar. Did you like that? Which did you like better back rooms or exit? Back rooms is making me think more. So I probably would go with that at this point when I would just finish watching back rooms. I wasn't sure, but as more time passes, that's the one I want to go back and watch again. Awesome. Awesome. I'm going to have to watch it. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Watch it. That and Widow's Bay. Yes. So good. I'm caught up on Widow's Bay, so I'm good. It's excellent. Excellent. Uh, last note.

[01:13:00] I think we all know the line from this episode that we will deliver to someone. So I'll count to three and then we'll say it together. One, two, three. Devour feculence.

[01:13:14] All right. It's time for our listener feedback experience. Would you like to go first? Absolutely.

[01:13:42] Damien says this, can we have an outie time at the end of the podcast where we all talk about Widow's Bay? I mean, um, I don't know if we're going to do that, but Karen and I have sort of informally said that when season two comes out, we will cover it on this podcast. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:05] And I'm, and that we would do like a catch episode first, but I'm hoping I can talk her into at some point covering season one episode by episode, maybe in the weeks leading up to season two or something like that. Cause I really love that show. Do you think she'd be up for it? Cause I think you all should do that for sure. Yeah. She, she's the one who talked me into watching it. So I hope she'd, yeah, I think she kind of needs a break right now. That's my sense.

[01:14:32] But, um, once we get, you know, a few months out, maybe I can talk her into coming back. Yes. Yes. All right. Let me know if I need to say anything or do anything. Yeah. Everybody write to Karen. No. Okay. Yeah. Uh, from Instagram, Ella Kuhl says devoured feculents laugh emoji. Cannot wait to use this in real life. All kidding aside. Tremel Tillman was magnificent in this episode. Yes, he was. Absolutely. Eat shit. I'm not going to say that.

[01:15:00] I'm not going to think of it in any other way. Um, Lori Stewart. And this, I guess is also from. Uh, I think this is probably from Facebook. From Facebook. All right. She says, I started this show late and finally caught up. Thank you for the podcast. The work that you and the listeners put in to dissect the show definitely increases my engagement and enjoyment. Thank you, Lori. You're speaking right to my heart here. Cause that's what we're trying to do.

[01:15:29] So thank you so much. Well said. Appreciate that. Okay. Here's a call from Damien. Hey, Jason. Hey, Eric. And Hey, Karen, wherever you are, uh, wherever you're. Out he is. Probably Widow's Bay, right? Um, after two self-contained episodes in a row away from the main action to put it monosyllabically, uh, we are so back. The, uh, this episode was great.

[01:15:58] Even though it really was just a prelude to the finale in a lot of ways. Um, I cheated and watched, uh, them both together. And it was like a, like a severance movie. Uh, one that just got steadily faster and faster as it went on. Uh, no spoilers for next week. I promise. Thank you. It's just really good. Uh, this episode had a little bit of everything. Uh, lots of characters, lots of scenes, got some resolutions of, in a, of a kind.

[01:16:28] Um, there was a real sense of propulsion through the whole thing though. Uh, that was in, uh, no small part due to, uh, the, the music this week. Mm-hmm. Um, Theodore Shapiro, I think his name is. Uh, he always does incredible things for the show. Uh, but the score in this episode is just so dynamic.

[01:16:50] Uh, the low strings just repeating that main motif over and over again. Just building suspense with the off kilter piano tinkles. Um, and the amazing like ticking percussion that just ramps up the tension. Yes. More. Uh, it was glorious. Watch it with AirPods. Uh, it felt like a paranoid thriller at times, which was perfect for the Burt and Irving scenes.

[01:17:19] Do we ever really think Burt was going to do Irving in with radar sat in the back? Uh, I don't know. But it is Christopher fucking Walken in the driver's seat. So, yeah, I guess you didn't know. Um, the whole train station goodbye was gorgeous. And who knows where Irv goes from here? Or, uh, or Burt for that matter. So, uh, there's so much else in this episode, which I'm sure you both covered, uh, from Dylan

[01:17:47] and Gretchen to Miss Wong, Milchick, Helena and her weird dad, Heli and Helena's weird dad, Mark and Devin with Cobell. None of it was inconsequential. Uh, we got really important solid stuff from all of them. Uh, which leads me back to last week. Uh, I did appreciate it. And I love the idea that Severance can go give us these mini movies away from the main action.

[01:18:16] And they build the depth and complexity of the world. But, given how packed these last two episodes are, no spoilers, uh, again, but you know the finale's gonna be great, people. Uh, I just can't help wishing we'd had a bit more of a steady run up to the jump. Uh, I don't know where else you slot in Sweet Vitriol, um, given the spoilers in it. Or if you just chop it into pieces and put them into another episode. That's what Karen was saying. I don't know. That's what I would think too.

[01:18:45] But I feel like it disturbs the flow of the season a little bit for me. It's really not a big deal. Uh, but the show is so perfect in so many ways. I just can't help thinking that. Anyway, uh, next week is really good. I can't wait. Uh, Devour Feculents, you guys. Devour Feculents, Damien. Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I wonder how it would have played if they would have divided it up. Maybe that would have been better.

[01:19:14] Cause we, we didn't get any of her for like several episodes, you know? Yeah. Definitely should have been divided up. I agree with Karen on that. Um, and maybe it could have just been nine episodes then really. Right. You know, I don't know. Yep. But I love Damien, by the way. I just, I just look forward to his calls and listener feedbacks. Um, just his accent, his quiet way. It's almost like he's like his thoughtfulness, the way he even just talks on the, you know,

[01:19:43] he's just, he's just so calming. Yeah. I can listen to him a lot. So I fell asleep during your podcast with him. That's the highest compliment. No, just kidding. But he's right about the music. Um, as a piano player myself. Yeah. You're, you're in Nashville, right? Yeah. You're a musician. Music makes or breaks a show. Uh, in my opinion, I mean, I think. Yeah. Lost is another, another one.

[01:20:11] Um, so, um, kudos to Theodore, I think is his name. I gotta say, I didn't even notice that a lot of things we're talking about on this episode make me want to go back and, and watch the episode again. Just. Yeah. Watch that montage. Get some of the details. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Okay. Rachel says, won't you eat? I'll watch. So creepy. And her father, everything about the opening scene. That's another thing you could try.

[01:20:41] If anybody ever asks you if you want to eat. Right. I'll watch. Watch everything about the opening scene was creepy as hell. Imagine forcing yourself to eat a plain hard boiled egg for breakfast and still being criticized for it by your father because it wasn't good enough. Okay. So I definitely had to look up who Mr. Bailiff was cause I did not remember that was Irving's last name. So do we think Bert was supposed to deliver Irving somewhere else to someone else instead of putting him on a train to get out of town forever? Yes. I think so. Yes.

[01:21:10] Now probably, that's probably not what Helena meant by we're seeing to, oh, that's what she said. We're seeing to him. Right. What do you mean? I think, no, yeah. Not going out of town, taking him to the testing floor or something else like that. Yeah. She says, I'd like to believe Bert did a good thing here. So creepy of him to be waiting in Irving's apartment. I like how they alerted us to someone's presence by showing radar just sitting there staring at him. Yeah. That was pretty cool. Turns out Irving was right about him. He's a goon of sorts.

[01:21:38] It seems the conversation between Irving and Bert at the train station was so totally heartbreaking though, mainly for Irving. I mean, he's never been loved. I'll love you, Irving. That's Rachel saying it. Maybe he was never out of the closet until now. And now he wishes with his whole being that he could remember being loved by this man and be loved by him presently. I think so. The way he repeated, I'm ready, just absolutely crushed me, especially since it was met by such coldness from Bert.

[01:22:06] I honestly can't tell if there's anything genuine about Bert at all. Interesting to hear what you guys think. No, I think Bert had some, was feeling something there too. That's what I took from it. Yeah. He was fighting it off by saying, I can't, I can't, we can't. Eustace Wang's last day at MDR. Her bed will be moved from her parents' home to the Gunnell Egan Empathy Center at Svalbard. Also had to look this up. Svalbard is an archipelago. Is that how you say that?

[01:22:35] Archipelago. Archipelago. In the frigging Arctic Ocean, one of the world's northern most inhabited areas. If Milchik had a say in this, damn, he hates her. I think he did. And if not, well. I'm not going to hate him. Well, it's still fucked up. I'm sure it's beautiful. The way he spoke to her and made her destroy her ring toss game really demonstrated his content for her. Poor misled girl. I was proud of her and so sad for her when she apologized to Dylan. I wish Dylan had said something like, it's not too fall.

[01:23:05] You're too young for this. Get out while you can. Ugh. Yeah. Didn't say anything. Yeah. I mean, and you could say, like you were saying, Eric, the same thing about Milchik too, though. You know, he's in the cult too. So he may have been misled himself. Ugh. I'd watch a standalone episode. He's an adult, but still. Ugh. I'd watch a standalone episode all about Miss Wang. It'd probably be dark as hell though. Nevermind. A Miss Wang. A standalone. I'm curious about that.

[01:23:35] Get the backrooms guy to do a YouTube series. Yeah. Yeah. Just a YouTube. Any Dylan. Ugh. Sweet Dylan. The way he screams Gretchen as she leaves such desperation. Why did Lumen do this? Was this the plan all along? I think like Eric said, they just weren't thinking ahead. It was always meant as a distraction from looking for Gemma and a wedge between Dylan and the group. I thought, is that what it was? It wasn't to keep him there. Yeah.

[01:24:04] It was just to keep him placated. I thought. I thought it. Yeah. It wasn't meant as a distraction from looking for Gemma. I think it was just, yeah. It was just to keep Dylan there. Yeah. Coming back. Yeah. She says, I can't tell if Dylan being despondent means their plan is going swimmingly or blowing up in their face. Maybe we'll find out next week. I think it's blowing up in their face because Milchick wasn't happy about it. Yeah. Everything seems to be blowing up. And he's the one that did it. Yeah. Obviously the conversation between Milchick and Mr. Drummond is iconic and devour feculence

[01:24:33] is the clear winner for what to randomly say to someone this week. Quote, let me put this to you monosyllabically. God, that was so great. Such a satisfying moment. Along with that, the conversation between Mark and Milchick. Wow. So powerful. I remember watching this originally and wanting so badly for this to be a turning point for Milchick. Mark says work is just work, right? And Milchick can't say anything in return. Yeah. He doesn't feel that way. Work is absolutely not just work for him. It's his whole life.

[01:25:02] He has tears in his eyes. Is he imagining a different life for himself? Is there a glimmer of regret or shame in his soul? I don't know, but I find myself looking kindly on him in this moment and then saying to myself, no, Rachel, remember Gemma. Yeah, he's a scrap of feculence, a piece of shit. Cobel says Devin is one of James. So from what we're to glean that James is impregnating multiple women at Lumen and this woman is just one of the many. That's what I thought. Makes me wonder how many children he has.

[01:25:31] Maybe Mr. Drummond and Natalie are his children too. Ooh. Could be. I don't know. All right. They don't look very much alike. That's true. All right. Who's pumped for next week? I definitely thought the me, the birthing cabin stuff was this week. Me too. Holy moly. Next week is going to be insane. I remember a couple of amazing bits and pieces, but not much. There was very much the pre finale.

[01:25:57] This was very much the pre finale, like tying up all the subplots for the season so that we can all focus on Mark Gemma and Helly next week. Oh shit. What was up with Jane and MDR talking to Helly at the end? We'll find out, I suppose. I'm not going to tell you guys to devour feculents, saving that for someone special. TBD. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Rachel. Awesome stuff. Awesome stuff. Okay. One more call from Steve Brown. Hello, Axiom's talk.

[01:26:24] This is Steve, and this is going to be for Severance, season two, episode nine, the After Hours. And we're starting right away with the, oh, we have Helena and her father's eating an egg. Oh no. Helena's eating the egg. And that's a very strange way to eat an egg. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Hey, Miss Wong's first name went by way too fast. Oh, and Bert is in Irving's house and he's looking over Irving's research. Ooh, that's ominous, Bert.

[01:26:53] Go for a ride with me. Ooh, Helly got a little attitude to her. Don't you mean Helly-y? No, Helena Egan is my employer. You are my subordinate. Okay, so I'm sure you're going to talk about Gretchen and Dylan and Dylan and Helly, but the whole, wow, it's getting confusing, the whole any outie thing. And now here we are back at the cabin. Okay, so they're not at the cabin yet. And Miss Cobell just mentioned Cold Harbor and that Mark has not finished the file yet.

[01:27:23] Now, so we have Dylan filling out an innie resignation form. So his innie is quitting, but doesn't the outie have to quit? I'm confused. Ooh. It was a request. You're just accusing Mr. Drummond of not doing his job right. Devour feculence. And now Bert is sending Irving away. Don't ever come back. Don't tell me where you went. Honestly, don't worry how this ends. I mean, how the season ends.

[01:27:51] Because this is such a sad ending here of this episode. Helly's trying to memorize the directions to the dark hallway. Oh, and Keir, that's her dad, right? Has appeared in the looming floor or MDR. And she doesn't recognize him, of course. Oh, so they're going to the cabin. Cobell and Devin with Mark is in the back. And she just said that Devin is one of James. Ooh. Next week is going to be good.

[01:28:21] We're going to get Mark talking to his innie and his outie talking to each other, I think. Yeah. I love Steve. Steve is in real time while he's watching the show. Yeah. Just hitting record. I love it. It's fun. I especially like it when he calls in and I know there's something really fucked up that's about to happen. Just to wait and see what he's going to say about it.

[01:28:44] This next one is from Jennifer McGinley, who actually wrote in for the episode Chick High Bardo. And it went into my spam folder, which has been happening occasionally lately. I just found it today. So that's about that episode. Okay. Jennifer says, all righty. Well, I've done it. I've caught up with the podcast. Well, now we're reading an old one. But in fact, I'm ahead because there is absolutely no way I could wait weekly to watch.

[01:29:13] I have two episodes to watch to end season two, after which I'll be going right back to the pilot and watching again. It is so good. That's great because she wasn't sure she liked it for like three or four episodes in. Yes. I remember this. Yeah. So she's really excited about it. So Chick High Bardo, of all the episodes to make me jump ahead of you, I did not want it to be this one.

[01:29:37] I identify as a fairly intelligent person, but I had no freaking clue what was going on with this one, in this one. That's not to say I didn't enjoy it, but I watched it thinking I cannot fucking wait to get to the podcast and gain an understanding of this one by listening to those far cleverer than I break it down for analysis. But there was no podcast. I feel that way too. I really do. I need feedback from you guys.

[01:30:07] I had to go read some recaps. So at this stage, I think I get what was going down on the testing floor. Are we testing severance on dental trips to minimize trauma or something like that? Can you get severed when you're going on a plane? If you have a fear of planes, Gemma seems to be getting severed to death. Why her? I never like to see miscarriages portrayed on screen for personal reasons.

[01:30:33] And yeah, we all react different, but I'm pretty sure Gemma would have stripped off before going into the shower. The aftermath of losing the pregnancy, the inability to conceive. Oh my gosh, awful. Starting off so hopeful thinking, well, we felt thinking, well, we felt pregnant that time. So it's bound to happen again. Then it doesn't and doesn't. You can understand why it would take a toll on a relationship.

[01:31:00] And we can see how fractured Mark and Gemma's marriage has become by the goodbye scene on the night of the crash.

[01:31:35] I miscarried in 2002. Imagine them not being there. However, the next time it happened to me, it took nine months before managing to get the two blue lines on the test again. And falling pregnant consumed me during this time. I must have created a mountain of plastic doing countless tests after imagining psychosomatic pregnancy symptoms constantly. There was no comfort to be had from the fact that I already had some children.

[01:32:02] But I definitely believe that feeling would be so much harder if you did not have kids already. Children provide a wonderful distraction in times of trauma. Thankfully, I eventually got there and the beautiful Charlie was born. Then I became fertile myrtle and had Francis 11 months later. Oopsies. Sorry, that wasn't meant to turn into my family planning issues. It just leaves me wondering what Mark and Gemma's relationship was like at the end.

[01:32:31] Was it over? Did the stress around the clinical planning and marital relations, etc., break them? Mark, in particular, looking a bit distant to the viewer. He seems to love his wife very much, grieving so much that he goes and gets severed. But it is that guilt as well as grief. If reintegration works and he becomes any and outie Mark, is it Helly he loves, not Gemma? The couple have been attending a Lumen fertility clinic.

[01:32:58] Was Gemma offered to come and be severed on a promise of something more attractive than having countless root canals and writing infinite thank you cards? Or was she taken? My head hurts so much. Hurry up with the darn podcast, will you? Much love. I feel like we did that podcast and I don't really remember coming up with a lot of great answers. I don't know. So we had some speculation. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:27] You did. I'm sure she was happy. Let us know, Jennifer. For your spam folder for the next email from her. I will. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotta know. Thanks for sharing all that with us, Jennifer. I appreciate it. And yeah, it reminds me of when Jenny and I were going through similar, for sure. Yeah. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

[01:33:57] Eric, thank you for coming on. It was such a pleasure to have you. Super fun. Oh, thanks, man. This was a dream come true to do this with you. It's been a long time since we got together and did anything. So thanks for having me. It's great. Yeah. Hopefully, maybe when season three rolls around, you can come guest with me and Karen. That'd be great. Yeah. But for sure, I'm going to be sending you some voice memos. Right on. Yeah, absolutely. Next episode is the big one, Severance Season 2, Episode 10, Cold Harbor.

[01:34:27] I can't wait. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, come check out our other shows. House of the Dragons coming back in a few days as we record this. And it's getting great advanced reviews. They're saying like, yeah, we got all the setup out of the way. Now it's time for the action. And so I'm excited about it.

[01:34:53] And we have our podcast, Dragon Cast, that covers that show, A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I recently unearthed our archive of Game of Thrones coverage. We've covered every single Game of Thrones episode since we started podcasting years ago. And those are now also available in that Dragon Cast feed. So check that out at podcastica.com. And I also want to ask you, Eric, what can you tell us about the podcasts or podcasts that you're doing and the coaching that you're doing? And where can people go to hear more from you?

[01:35:24] Yeah, man. By the way, I just want to say everybody should be a part of that Discord. It's so good. It's such a great group of people to be a part of. And everybody needs to join the Patreon, too, in my opinion. Yeah, do it. Yes, go do it. Support what's good or it will go away, right? Links in the show notes. That's right. Yes, I help people with podcasts. I help creative people create podcasts or people who maybe are a little ADD.

[01:35:53] I love to help those types of people being here in Nashville. I started podcasting a long time ago, 2012. And I love, love helping and encouraging others to start their own. So yeah, check it out at ericnordoff.com if you want to learn more. That's great. I'll put a link in the show notes to that, too. And I may be contacting you. Awesome, man. Free of charge for you, man. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[01:36:21] And to put it monosyllabically, bye. Bye. Devour speculants.

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