13: "Arrivederci" (S2E7)

[00:00:00] I lost my phone and I have this weird feeling that he took it or something.

[00:00:15] Yeah, well, I wouldn't be surprised.

[00:00:18] Push a Porsche.

[00:00:20] I know you really like him but the other night I was walking around the villa and well

[00:00:29] I saw Jack and his uncle and you know they were like naked and stuff like that.

[00:00:39] They were naked doing what?

[00:00:42] Well, he was kinda fucking his uncle.

[00:00:52] So, welcome to the White Lotus, a podcast dedicated to the show The White Lotus.

[00:01:06] We're the resort managers and please enjoy your stay.

[00:01:13] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast I'm Jason and I'm Jenny and I'm Randy and this

[00:01:21] episode we're covering the White Lotus season two episode seven of Lee Evadette G.

[00:01:28] The fun at home.

[00:01:30] So what do you think Jenny?

[00:01:32] It was a great finale.

[00:01:34] I mean, I'm trying to remember just the amazement I had when I first watched it a couple

[00:01:42] years ago just like every story pretty much ending with the bang right?

[00:01:48] I mean, what two of them ending with the bang and one ending in a like yeah that's the

[00:01:54] way to end that story.

[00:01:56] So I just, I mean it's just great.

[00:02:00] He stuck the landing for all the stories not one bad story.

[00:02:05] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:07] It's a fair assessment.

[00:02:09] Was that what you thought Randy?

[00:02:11] Yeah, I enjoyed it.

[00:02:12] I think on my first watch, I was just everything that happened felt very unexpected which was super

[00:02:19] fun.

[00:02:20] You think seven episodes in you would kind of have a feel for what's going to happen

[00:02:24] but now there's no guessing the end of this one and then on the second watch it's

[00:02:30] fun like picking up all the pieces that I missed the first go around.

[00:02:34] Yeah, the clues to it.

[00:02:36] They're all there.

[00:02:37] Yeah, they are and yeah, it was especially interesting the way Tanya's story turned into

[00:02:44] a Tarantino movie.

[00:02:46] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:47] What?

[00:02:48] And then but then when you go back and they're talking about tragic Italian opera the whole

[00:02:53] time then it's like oh yeah, they were totally laying the seeds for something big and dramatic

[00:02:59] like that.

[00:03:00] Right.

[00:03:01] Yes, but tragic Italian opera don't have quite the dark humor this had.

[00:03:05] I mean, you can't help but laugh a bit as it's as all the blood flows whereas in tragic

[00:03:12] Italian opera they're just kind of like oh yeah.

[00:03:16] It's the white lotus and it's more specifically the Tanya version because with Tanya so often

[00:03:21] we've said I didn't want to laugh because it was so tragic but with her falling off like

[00:03:28] successfully just killing everyone like a fucking badass and then she dies because

[00:03:33] she trips over the edge.

[00:03:34] It's very Tanya.

[00:03:35] Very Tanya, very realistic.

[00:03:38] Yeah.

[00:03:39] I was saying when we first started the season that it felt like a horror movie franchise

[00:03:42] that was continuing and I feel like the sequels of a lot of horror movies like aliens and they

[00:03:48] lean action in their sequel so in this one we get the action sequence but then our surviving

[00:03:54] girl still doesn't make it at the end.

[00:03:56] The very last second fake comes and grabs her.

[00:03:59] And someone had to die.

[00:04:01] Yeah.

[00:04:02] It was pretty, I did not expect that.

[00:04:04] I thought maybe she was going to be back every season or something.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:09] I mean especially when she's taking out all those guys with a gun you're like alright she's

[00:04:14] safe, she did it.

[00:04:16] Nope.

[00:04:17] Those are the dead guys right?

[00:04:18] Those are the dead people.

[00:04:20] Right.

[00:04:21] And Jennifer Coolidge, fans still they never want to let go so there's always a speculation

[00:04:26] that she's going to come back as her twin sister or something like that.

[00:04:31] I don't know, you never know.

[00:04:34] I wonder because this was so it was a tonal shift.

[00:04:40] I mean I guess this whole season was a bit of a tonal shift from season one but especially

[00:04:46] this episode it turned into more of a thriller for parts of it than this usual sort of

[00:04:51] ride satire.

[00:04:55] And I love that it was super fun but also I hope that the Mike White doesn't feel like

[00:05:01] he has to keep topping it with outrageousness and farcicalness every season that I suspect

[00:05:07] he won't I think he'll do whatever the situation calls for in this situation.

[00:05:11] He wanted like a sexy Italian opera style drama and so he went with it more comedy and

[00:05:17] everything.

[00:05:18] Yeah, for sure.

[00:05:20] But it was super.

[00:05:21] Yeah, it was crazy.

[00:05:22] Yeah, what do you guys think of this season as a whole compared to the last season?

[00:05:27] I mean the fact that I remember liking it more to be honest now that we've watched two

[00:05:34] seasons in a row.

[00:05:35] I kind of like them evenly they're just different.

[00:05:37] You know, they're just different like say oh there's a comedy and there's a thriller.

[00:05:41] How is one better than the other when they're just kind of like so different?

[00:05:45] I'm not saying that you know what is a comedy one is a thriller because he manages to incorporate

[00:05:49] all of them.

[00:05:50] But as Jason said, it feels so different that you know I like them both because they

[00:05:55] seem to rub different parts of my brain well.

[00:05:59] But there's a through line there.

[00:06:01] It's I mean the through line of this series so far we think is people staying at one of

[00:06:07] the hotels in this luxury hotel chain in a new exotic location each season but then

[00:06:11] they explore different themes but it's still it's very smart and it's complicated.

[00:06:18] It's you know just when you think you've pegged somebody as a bad person then they'll do

[00:06:25] something surprising that makes you realize they're a more fully fleshed out person that

[00:06:30] has different sides to them.

[00:06:31] I found that in both seasons and that's one of the things I love about the show that

[00:06:35] you know I liked that they had it in both seasons.

[00:06:37] I mean season one was a lot about the differences between the hotel guests and the staff.

[00:06:42] Yeah.

[00:06:43] And I find that really interesting.

[00:06:45] Season two wasn't really about that at all very much.

[00:06:48] Then again that's probably a good thing because you want it to change.

[00:06:52] You can't sustain a series like this if it's always the same thing.

[00:06:56] And so I season one was more about money season two about sex season three is going to be

[00:07:03] about death Eastern religion and spirituality.

[00:07:07] Mike White said originally season two was going to be in a political setting like a builder

[00:07:11] bird conference which is this one of these annual off the record forums with rich people,

[00:07:16] political leaders and stuff like that.

[00:07:18] And this one is to bolster a consensus around free market, Western capitalism and its interest

[00:07:24] around the globe.

[00:07:25] So I could see him doing it.

[00:07:26] I could totally see that.

[00:07:27] That'd be devil's right?

[00:07:28] That'd be Switzerland.

[00:07:29] Yes.

[00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:31] Switzerland or even Sun Valley so that would be the first time he'd be away from the water

[00:07:36] right.

[00:07:37] It's cool.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:39] That would be cool.

[00:07:40] So but all this said I didn't like season two as much as season one still.

[00:07:46] But I liked it a lot, like probably better than most things that are on TV.

[00:07:51] You know, still liked it a lot, but season one I just loved so much.

[00:07:54] So it would be really interesting.

[00:07:55] I hope that I like season three.

[00:07:58] If I like season three as much as I like season two, I feel like that will be a success.

[00:08:01] Yeah, for sure.

[00:08:02] Season two was just fun.

[00:08:04] I'm sorry.

[00:08:05] The party is all the sex.

[00:08:07] I mean, I can't help it just.

[00:08:10] No, that's you know, the, the, the, yeah, the lip, lip routine areas of my brain were

[00:08:15] like, oh, yeah.

[00:08:16] I think I had more fun laughing at people in season one.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:22] They all felt more.

[00:08:23] Or two, I was a bit annoyed by the characters more.

[00:08:26] So I don't know if it's because they're the things they're dealing with are maybe a little

[00:08:31] more easily relatable for us.

[00:08:33] Like I don't really relate to having millions of dollars and that like causing most of my

[00:08:39] life problems, but I have intimate relationships.

[00:08:42] All right.

[00:08:43] Maybe it's a little easier to be like, oh, I can see myself in this person and it's

[00:08:47] a little harder to laugh at it.

[00:08:49] But yeah, I think one of the things in this season, I agree that I think I liked the

[00:08:54] first season more just because everybody felt a little corkier and I'm not saying I didn't

[00:08:59] like this season just as a caveat there.

[00:09:02] But I think one of the things in this one that's missing for me is sort of the domino effect

[00:09:07] that leads to the death at the end, where last season it felt like everybody's story

[00:09:12] the way it intertwined lead to the death of Armand where in this one, I think if you took

[00:09:17] out all of the other characters, Tonya was still going to end up on that boat and killed

[00:09:22] because most of that was set up before this even began.

[00:09:27] So sort of a predestined thing.

[00:09:30] And I think that's a small nitpick, but I really liked, I don't know, just like all the

[00:09:35] gears coming together and you're like, oh no, like you can see this perfect storm brewing

[00:09:39] and you're all these small things creating that tragic of an ending.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:46] Just one of the things I kind of miss in this one.

[00:09:48] There was a little bit of that with Lucy is story and Albee story crossing over with Dominic

[00:09:56] I guess.

[00:09:57] Yeah, well everybody a lot of the stories do intertwined, but I don't feel like they led

[00:10:02] to the death the same way last season's there for Tonya was pretty separate.

[00:10:06] Yeah, that's yeah, I wish she had just had some other like bumped into more characters

[00:10:12] to lead her to that.

[00:10:13] And I think that's the connecting thread that I missed.

[00:10:16] Overall, yeah, this was a super entertaining.

[00:10:20] My wife was describing this show as the wire for rich people or you get to see like every

[00:10:25] facet and every vert like each season you're seeing a new part of the rich person's life

[00:10:32] basically.

[00:10:33] The same way the wire does for the drug trade.

[00:10:35] I'll watch the wire and see if I agree with that.

[00:10:37] Yeah, yeah, see if they're the same show.

[00:10:42] All right, Jenny, why don't you go first?

[00:10:46] I think this is one of the strongest parts of this episode was Megan Feige by I don't

[00:10:52] know how to pronounce her name.

[00:10:55] Her performance, I mean if you look at it, it was really short but it was very powerful.

[00:11:01] She actually got a nomination for outstanding supporting actress, Emmy for white lotus.

[00:11:08] And I don't think it was for the first six episodes.

[00:11:11] It was for her, her what she did in this episode and I just remember being really struck

[00:11:16] by how she was as Daphne speaking to to Ethan.

[00:11:22] And how she managed with so few words and just the expression on her face to just convey

[00:11:28] so many emotions.

[00:11:30] And even on this watch, I feel like she even conveyed more emotions than I caught the first

[00:11:34] time because I thought in the first time she was just hurt by Cameron's betrayal, right?

[00:11:40] But then I realized that she was also hurt by Harper's betrayal because you know she

[00:11:45] has said that she has so few female friends and I do feel like she felt she was connecting

[00:11:50] with Harper.

[00:11:51] Yeah.

[00:11:52] She revealed a lot of deep secrets and deep philosophies about her, how she operates.

[00:12:00] And then so to find out husband and your potential new friend, I mean, I think that is hurtful.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:07] And to find out, I mean, she was sort of encouraging Harper.

[00:12:10] You should do what I did and go find someone else to cheat with so that you can feel better

[00:12:14] about what Ethan maybe did.

[00:12:16] And then she does that with her with Daphne's husband.

[00:12:20] Right.

[00:12:21] She's pretty fucked up.

[00:12:22] Right.

[00:12:23] So she got that hurt, she's got the camera's hurt.

[00:12:27] And then she just turns around and says like do what you have to do to not be a victim.

[00:12:32] Walks off to the island.

[00:12:34] And as they get closer to the island, she starts looking back at Ethan flirtatiously.

[00:12:38] So even though everybody says we don't really know what happened there, I, you know those

[00:12:43] details make it more and more obviously what happened.

[00:12:48] Like I feel more certain after really analyzing it as we went along than I didn't when

[00:12:54] I first watched it that they had sex.

[00:12:57] I think yeah, the first time I watched it, I was like, whoa, maybe they made out, maybe

[00:13:01] they just had some sort of deep connection there and now I was like, oh come on.

[00:13:04] What the hell was I thinking?

[00:13:06] And it's, it was weird because it felt like a purely tactical thing or you know, it wasn't

[00:13:17] at all, I don't feel any chemistry really between them.

[00:13:20] I mean, it's hard not to feel some chemistry when Megan Fay, he gets shoot you a flirtatious

[00:13:25] look, you know, I'm sure there was a little bit of heat there but for the most part,

[00:13:29] it was just about vengeance, you know?

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:33] And that's weird.

[00:13:34] But it also let Ethan have the same kind of thing that I think Daphne had or similar

[00:13:41] anyway.

[00:13:42] No, I'm sorry that Harper had when Cameron flirted with her that he could, it helped him

[00:13:45] feel like okay, we're even now so I don't have to feel all this rage and desirable.

[00:13:51] Yeah, so let him sort of, you know, weird ironic way not be so mad at Harper so that

[00:13:58] then they could sort of repair the relationship which is exactly the kind of thing Daphne does

[00:14:03] and preaches about how she stays with Cameron.

[00:14:06] And then she also says mystery is sexy and there's that scene in which Ethan is looking at

[00:14:10] Harper before he has sex with her.

[00:14:12] He's looking at her face and he's like, you can tell he's just like, I really don't know

[00:14:15] what happened.

[00:14:17] And you know what?

[00:14:18] I'm okay with that at this moment, right?

[00:14:21] And so, you know, they've absorbed the lessons of Daphne.

[00:14:27] Yeah, and it's so interesting because it's sort of like, but that's all fucked up, but

[00:14:31] it kind of worked.

[00:14:33] Like you needed to cheat in order to be interested in each other again or be interested in your

[00:14:38] way.

[00:14:39] I'm sure that worked 100%.

[00:14:41] I think it worked 80 to 90%.

[00:14:43] I wanted it to work and such a beautifully done show that I was like, yeah, it works.

[00:14:48] But you know, it does feel like it could be the start of a cold war.

[00:14:51] Well, I just don't even know if humans are really that gracious that they could just

[00:14:55] be like, mystery is sexy and then recover their sex life to be honest.

[00:14:58] I mean, yeah, I have way more cynical about reality.

[00:15:02] It's just interesting that Ethan was so uninterested in Harper, but as soon as he thought Cameron

[00:15:06] did something with her, he's all worked up about it.

[00:15:09] And I'm like, you weren't even interested in her, but I kind of get it because A, he still

[00:15:12] doesn't want to be cheated on by his wife and he prides their relationship on their honesty

[00:15:18] with each other, even though that he's full of shit about that.

[00:15:22] And B, that it probably bothers him even more that he feels like Cameron took something

[00:15:27] from him again, you know, that's making him so pissed off.

[00:15:32] I think that when you take somebody for granted and something like this happens, and then

[00:15:37] you have that fear of loss, that can reinvigorate your interest.

[00:15:41] So it's the mystery but also the fear of loss.

[00:15:43] And I think that's similar to what happened with Dominic and his wife.

[00:15:47] Like he is now sort of scared straight at least for the moment of curbing his addiction

[00:15:53] because he doesn't want to lose his wife.

[00:15:56] We'll see if that keeps up.

[00:15:58] I doubt it.

[00:15:59] And with Ethan, he's like, I think just that fear of having almost, he took her for granted

[00:16:07] and he realized he can't.

[00:16:08] You know?

[00:16:09] Also wonder if it's a little bit of the mimetic desire that he accused Cameron of

[00:16:14] having where somebody of a higher status wants something so you want something.

[00:16:18] And Cameron now wants his wife and suddenly he's like, wait, now I want my wife and to

[00:16:23] a degree, Daphne as well.

[00:16:25] He wanted, I don't know if he wants his right word but he went for it with Cameron's wife

[00:16:31] as well.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:33] Part of the appeal of that is being with that.

[00:16:34] That's Cameron's.

[00:16:35] That's Cameron's.

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:37] Sure.

[00:16:38] Yeah.

[00:16:39] I don't know.

[00:16:40] Cameron wanted a lot of stuff.

[00:16:41] I mean, he wanted to look at him.

[00:16:43] I'm sure he wanted to be much, every chicken, the bar.

[00:16:46] Yeah, but it's his wife though.

[00:16:48] So yeah, it's a bigger deal.

[00:16:51] Yeah.

[00:16:52] It's something that he feels like would be taken from him or yeah, Cameron probably thinks

[00:16:58] he has a degree of ownership over his wife.

[00:17:00] So somebody could steal that from him.

[00:17:02] Yeah.

[00:17:03] Like if Cameron, like Cameron slept with Lucia, that doesn't make Ethan want to be like,

[00:17:07] I'm going to get with her too but it's his wife.

[00:17:09] It's like, yeah.

[00:17:11] I do that.

[00:17:12] Senior talking about though with Daphne and Ethan the range of emotions she goes through

[00:17:18] just in her face is incredible.

[00:17:22] And the fact that you said she got nominated for it makes sense because I agree that I

[00:17:25] think when she hears Cameron, she is sort of like, okay, this is something's happening

[00:17:31] but then when he says and Harper, she does look like just crushed like for a second there

[00:17:37] she can't keep the mask up and she's just like, oh, that really hurt.

[00:17:41] And then she pauses for a minute.

[00:17:43] I think she analyzes Ethan's reaction and then she looks off to the water and you kind

[00:17:48] of expect her to turn around and be crying but she turns around and she's got a smile

[00:17:52] on it.

[00:17:53] She just needed a second away from him to put her mask back on and get back into her mindset

[00:17:58] and she's like, all right, I'm going to show you the secret that I used to make this

[00:18:03] work and just that like 10 seconds of face acting is so good.

[00:18:09] Yeah.

[00:18:10] Yeah.

[00:18:11] She you're right.

[00:18:12] You guys are both I really admire.

[00:18:13] Magnify.

[00:18:14] I haven't seen her in anything else but I want to see her in something else now.

[00:18:17] And such a, such a, such a attractive or intriguing philosophy.

[00:18:24] You know, just do what you have to do to not be a victim and I mean, I feel like I've

[00:18:32] done that right?

[00:18:34] So people can understand that.

[00:18:36] I mean she takes it to the next level and I can't help but respect her for that.

[00:18:41] I mean, it's kind of like totally twisted and wrong and yet you're just like, I admire

[00:18:46] you.

[00:18:47] Could tap me for this.

[00:18:50] I'm sort of, of two minds about it because on the one hand she does seem, I mean, at times

[00:19:00] like when they went to No Do, she seemed kind of depressed.

[00:19:03] So I don't know how much of her demeanor is just like putting on Rose Color Glad.

[00:19:09] No, everything's fine here as the whole place is burning around her or how much she's

[00:19:13] actually.

[00:19:14] It does feel like she's just kind of a happy girl.

[00:19:16] Like a person.

[00:19:17] So maybe it is working for her, but it also feels like it could just be a way of rationalizing

[00:19:23] or rationalizing staying in abusive relationship.

[00:19:26] Yeah.

[00:19:27] It's, yeah, it's definitely her saying this is okay for me to make this decision and not

[00:19:34] like because I think if she were really doing what she needed to to not be a victim, she would

[00:19:39] leave this relationship.

[00:19:41] So she's using that logic to.

[00:19:44] Yeah.

[00:19:45] I think she's telling herself, I have a choice and this is what I choose to do.

[00:19:51] She retains the control or if she feels like she retains control of the situation because

[00:19:56] she's doing something.

[00:19:58] Yeah.

[00:19:59] I understand but it's my, like I could either figure out a way to stay in this abusive

[00:20:06] relationship and make myself feel good about it or I could leave.

[00:20:10] And she's figured out a way to stay in a make yourself feel good about it, but it's still

[00:20:13] a bit of a relationship when you have a child with your trainer.

[00:20:18] No, I mean, she's doing that in reaction to him like in order to make herself feel

[00:20:24] okay about.

[00:20:25] But on the other hand, maybe she would be bored with a guy who wasn't like Cameron.

[00:20:29] Yeah.

[00:20:30] You know, you still find a trainer.

[00:20:33] It might just be that they both have these things that don't quite work in relationships

[00:20:38] and they both just happen to meet each other.

[00:20:41] I mean, I feel like a big theme of this season is just how unsure everything is.

[00:20:49] It's hard to put a finger out with cheating or not cheating with flirting.

[00:20:55] It's like like I've talked about this plausible domain of ability thing like no commitment one

[00:21:00] way or the other or even with the way Quentin is with Tanya.

[00:21:05] I think Quentin realizes at some point that Tanya probably suspects what's about to happen

[00:21:10] because she's freaking out, but he still plays it like everything is cool because and

[00:21:15] it's like maybe they're both thinking how much do you know that I know and I know

[00:21:19] that you know, but they're not committing to it.

[00:21:21] And so it leaves us in this whole gray area, you know, so much of that and all these

[00:21:26] different levels and aspects.

[00:21:27] And I hope I'm not stereotyping, but that makes the setting so important.

[00:21:31] I mean, this couldn't have happened at a four seasons in San Francisco.

[00:21:37] Sorry.

[00:21:38] Right?

[00:21:39] It happens in Sicily.

[00:21:41] It happens in Italy where there's still a strong sense of machismo.

[00:21:45] There's still this sort of like sexuality is still deeply intertwined into daily life

[00:21:50] in a way that we have tried so hard to separate it.

[00:21:53] You know, it's like church and states in the US or like Staxon daily life, no way, no

[00:21:58] way.

[00:21:59] But here they're just kind of like, oh yeah.

[00:22:00] I mean, and maybe I'm stereotyping.

[00:22:02] I don't know.

[00:22:03] I've been to Italy in like a long time and I don't, you know, as a tourist, I didn't

[00:22:07] like go and have sex with various people.

[00:22:10] But I think that's the idea is at least our idea of Italy.

[00:22:13] Right.

[00:22:14] Right.

[00:22:15] Right.

[00:22:16] Right.

[00:22:17] This American idea of Italy.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:19] Which I also think of resort would be that's what they would sell to you is what the American

[00:22:20] idea of a place is anyway.

[00:22:22] So they'd be getting that.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:24] The romantic idea of it.

[00:22:26] I think is what he's playing too for sure.

[00:22:28] Portia's not going to go to Dubai and be like, you can't wait for a nice chic to like

[00:22:32] throw me.

[00:22:33] Take my clothes off in a public place so you can get whipped by the morality police.

[00:22:40] You know?

[00:22:41] But leading up to all of that, um, Daphne is talking to Cameron about someone she knows

[00:22:49] who got fired and says he threw a yogurt at his assistant's face and Cameron goes,

[00:22:54] he got fired because he threw a yogurt.

[00:22:56] Jesus.

[00:22:57] Yes.

[00:22:58] You can't throw a yogurt at someone's face.

[00:22:59] It's his assistant who cares?

[00:23:01] It's so funny and I'm like, what a jerk.

[00:23:04] And then when Harper calls him an idiot right away.

[00:23:07] I thought, oh, that feels like the relationship has changed.

[00:23:10] She feels more comfortable with him.

[00:23:12] And I love that Ethan just sensed that right away too and even called her on it later.

[00:23:17] And then when they go back to the room and he's like you did you fucked him.

[00:23:21] You did something with him.

[00:23:22] And she's like, no, I didn't.

[00:23:24] And she was so straightforward that I believed her, I think in the moment.

[00:23:29] But it now it reminds me of when I was dating someone and we had a break kind of like Ross

[00:23:37] and Rachel on cheer on the friends.

[00:23:39] And I suspected that she was with her ex.

[00:23:43] And I can't remember why but I really had a strong suspicion and I couldn't let go of

[00:23:47] it.

[00:23:48] I felt just like Ethan.

[00:23:49] Like she would say no and I just like, but it's just no.

[00:23:52] I kept, no, I know something happened.

[00:23:55] And finally she's like fine, I slept with him.

[00:23:57] Oh my God.

[00:23:58] It was actually a relief to get the truth.

[00:24:02] And I think because we were on a break if she would have just told me in the first place

[00:24:06] maybe it would have been easier but the lying is that just like somebody getting something

[00:24:13] over you and like feeling like they're tricking you but you know they're not even

[00:24:18] if it's something small.

[00:24:19] For some reason I think it's people that like just needles at you and you're like no,

[00:24:24] I know the truth.

[00:24:25] Yeah.

[00:24:26] And especially when they're just like saying no, no, no, you're wrong.

[00:24:31] Nothing happened and you find out they were lying when they were trying to be so sincere

[00:24:35] like that.

[00:24:36] It feels like oh my God, I can't ever trust you again.

[00:24:38] Yep.

[00:24:39] But I could also see the other end of this too where I would then be like or not necessarily

[00:24:45] me because I don't see myself in the situation but you could be like well now I think you're

[00:24:50] lying about how much you did do.

[00:24:52] You're just saying that to make me feel like when they actually kissed, I'm like okay we

[00:24:58] don't know what they did.

[00:24:59] Like now I think that because as Ethan points out there was 10 minutes before he came up

[00:25:06] there and also she says he said let's go up to the room and he was touching my leg and

[00:25:12] I'm like what can that means you intended something to happen?

[00:25:14] She wasn't going for the hat.

[00:25:16] And she got interrupted so who knows what would have happened, even with her story that

[00:25:22] they had just barely started and nothing happened, who knows what would have happened if Ethan

[00:25:26] hadn't interrupted and then she's leaving out those 10 minutes saying they went down

[00:25:30] the wrong path or whatever.

[00:25:31] Right.

[00:25:32] Like oh I don't know but I, I, Aubrey Plaza was on the late show with Seth Meyers and he

[00:25:39] asked her about this and they took down the interview, it's private but I found just

[00:25:43] a little clip of it here so I'll play it.

[00:25:46] I know what happened.

[00:25:49] And what happened is we did some stuff.

[00:25:53] Okay.

[00:25:54] And I hated every minute of it.

[00:25:56] Okay good.

[00:25:57] It was disgusting.

[00:25:58] And there was no penetration.

[00:26:01] Oh wow.

[00:26:02] I don't know.

[00:26:03] She's got to joke it around.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:07] Okay so my point of view, because I remember watching this the first time and just kind

[00:26:12] of it was so weird because you know Ethan's just like oh that's the tell.

[00:26:16] You know because you caught him an idiot that's the tell and now it's just like what do

[00:26:20] you mean it's the last day of the vacation?

[00:26:22] You can finally call the guy an idiot.

[00:26:24] I mean this is what I would have done.

[00:26:26] I would be like oh wow you're an idiot.

[00:26:29] I hated you all week and now I was going to call you an idiot.

[00:26:32] I was like for me, I just thought yeah I should have an idiot because you know I was

[00:26:38] like relating with her and then he's just like oh that's the tell.

[00:26:41] You fuck.

[00:26:42] I would have been like whoa.

[00:26:44] You know different people, different couples.

[00:26:48] You could tell maybe she was just too nice up to the end.

[00:26:51] It wasn't like she was peaceful cracks day by day like you could tell she was trying

[00:26:55] to not punch Cameron.

[00:26:57] Yeah.

[00:26:58] And also couples, most couples know each other well and they can tell on somethings up.

[00:27:04] Yeah.

[00:27:05] I think what it was like super interesting about that though was that nobody reacted after

[00:27:10] she said that.

[00:27:11] Like they all sit there silently like definitely.

[00:27:13] Well I think definitely thought no I think she did have an expression.

[00:27:17] Yeah.

[00:27:18] I mean I think part of it was me probably relating too much to Harper and just being like

[00:27:23] me finding Cameron so annoying throughout the whole week.

[00:27:26] I just couldn't imagine learning touching you know kissing something.

[00:27:33] You know yes you know when when when Aubrey Plaza said I hated every minute of it and

[00:27:37] I'm trying to think all the times in which I was making out with someone I didn't want

[00:27:40] to make out with and for whatever reason I was drunk or I was you know and you do that

[00:27:47] once or twice.

[00:27:49] You don't do it again.

[00:27:50] I don't think you I don't know.

[00:27:52] I mean she must have been really drunk and miserable but yeah I mean penetration is

[00:27:56] pretty far.

[00:27:57] You know it takes.

[00:27:58] No I don't think it got that far.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] But maybe it would have though if he hadn't shown up.

[00:28:04] But I mean I it was harder if you are watching this for the first time with us along with

[00:28:13] us.

[00:28:14] I don't know if there's that many left to where but and didn't listen to our spoilery

[00:28:18] segments at the end.

[00:28:20] I was harder not to spoil things this season.

[00:28:23] I really tried my best only to talk about things that I remember thinking as I was watching

[00:28:28] the first time through so I thought something was fishy about Quentin and his buddies

[00:28:32] but I had no clue that he was that they were going to kill her like that so I tried

[00:28:37] not to talk about it that way as we went along.

[00:28:41] I wasn't sure whether Lucia had really fallen for Albi.

[00:28:45] I thought maybe she was on the fence about it and I still think she liked him but not

[00:28:49] nearly as much as she pretended to but I totally didn't think the thing with Alessio

[00:28:53] was a total scam and so I think I failed a little bit but I tried not to let on about

[00:28:59] that either because I wanted it to be the way I thought like yeah this guy really is harassing

[00:29:04] her.

[00:29:05] But I absolutely from day one from episode one thought that Harper and Camer were going

[00:29:09] to go to bed together.

[00:29:13] My first read of that whole interaction was I thought they were a swinger couple and

[00:29:17] the whole point was they were going to try and get the couple to have sex with the

[00:29:21] both of them so I didn't quite have it nailed down the way you did.

[00:29:26] I mean I just saw that there was these double dynamic going where Camer was trying to

[00:29:34] dominate and was threatened by Ethan's newfound wealth and was trying to take his wife from

[00:29:40] him and I saw that Harper was not being appreciated by her husband and that she would

[00:29:46] be attracted to this guy despite his anointness because of his outgoingness that Ethan lacked and

[00:29:53] his sexuality and passion and all that she wanted you know from her own husband and

[00:29:58] that he was paying attention to her it all just made sense to me.

[00:30:00] Yeah I mean I probably didn't to Jenny.

[00:30:02] I was like I would say I was a lot like you the first time I watched it like we all got

[00:30:09] the sense that you know there's something wrong Quentin is up to something I just thought

[00:30:14] you could kind of like actor to invest in his latest business.

[00:30:17] Yeah some scare or something.

[00:30:18] That's the thing this episode showed that everything was a conspiracy and conspiracies when more

[00:30:24] than two people are involved right so we're so used to like yes people have bad drives

[00:30:29] and we expected them to have bad drives what we didn't expect was for multiple people

[00:30:34] to have bad drives and be working together yeah yeah yeah I'm not a conspiracy person right

[00:30:40] and to be honest every time I see bad news in the paper I'm just like okay that's just

[00:30:45] everybody being idiots right maybe concurrently but not plotting together I went I just I

[00:30:51] always find conspiracy theorists really annoying because I'm just like dude I can't even get

[00:30:56] two people at work to like make make a pot of coffee how are they gonna like pull this off

[00:31:03] so that's what was kind of shocking about this episode was finding out how many people

[00:31:08] were working towards it together well really it was just Lucia and El Sio were working against

[00:31:14] Albee and Greg and all his gay friends were working against Tanya yeah that's what that

[00:31:20] those are pretty big I mean it's a lot but for a TV show yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:31:24] well and Harper and Cameron it's not just like Cameron is the skeezy guy going after your

[00:31:28] wife but Harper yeah accepting it but cheating is a very common conspiracy yeah yeah

[00:31:35] it only takes two and yeah yeah all right Randy what do you got so I want to talk about some

[00:31:45] of the artwork in the intro now that we are into full on spoiler zone we see John Greece who plays

[00:31:54] Greg and it shows a man and a woman riding a donkey and they're they're headed away the donkey's

[00:32:00] looking back at us. And I think this is symbolizing that Greg is leaving this entire situation with

[00:32:07] another woman. He's not even looking back, the donkey's looking back. So he's set up all of this

[00:32:13] and he's out of there. Simona Tabasco who plays luchia is shows a cat slinking away with its burden

[00:32:22] with a burden its mouth. And I think that's very clearly her sneaking into the de grosso family

[00:32:28] essentially and then sneaking away with $50,000 actually $56,000 if you consider the other nights

[00:32:36] she's had as well. What is yours too? Come on I don't know what the trade rate is.

[00:32:41] Oh yeah that's a comparison. $1.3.

[00:32:45] So has these all been the same the whole time they did change the whole thing?

[00:32:49] Yeah they didn't change now so they have been the company's start.

[00:32:53] Yep. Hailey Lou Richardson who plays Porsche she shows it shows a girl seated by a wall with

[00:33:00] a sheep nearby and I'm thinking that's maybe a wolf in sheep's clothing that she's been hanging

[00:33:06] out with Jack who seems like this great awesome guy but it turns out he's got negative plans for her.

[00:33:13] Unless you're Andy and he's clearly an asshole. He was just an ass from the beginning

[00:33:18] and I've slightly I've slightly soften to Jack at this point he's got a slight tragic side

[00:33:26] and and I think I mean just my as well since you're talking about it. I think it's possible that

[00:33:32] he was supposed to kill her I don't know. Yeah it's really well he said he was supposed to drive

[00:33:38] her back so I think he's just supposed to keep her there for a long time. He's doing what he was

[00:33:41] supposed to do take her to the airport. I don't think he was supposed to take her to the airport.

[00:33:45] I think he was supposed to take her back to the hotel and tear Terra Masu tear me now.

[00:33:52] Terra Meena thank you. Okay. I think that's what it but he changes his plan and drops her off

[00:33:58] directly at the airport which I think is maybe a little bit of him being like this is your

[00:34:03] safe posture. Just get out of here. Yeah. And he has I mean he was at first I remember thinking like

[00:34:08] okay that's weird but it's it's true you know part I mean if Nicolau is from the mafia powerful

[00:34:14] people are involved in Italy which in the US does not have a very high reputation for you know

[00:34:21] sensible justice system it seems to be very idiosyncratic what you know who gets convicted and

[00:34:29] who doesn't so it probably would be best if she was not investigated by the police there or if

[00:34:35] she is going to be investigated from the safety of the US and not in Italy. Yeah. What a job by

[00:34:41] the way Nicolau had is to seduce this older woman and be very tender with her and then the next

[00:34:47] night killer. Yeah it's like it almost like is that the package she he sells or you can add on all

[00:34:56] these things yeah or is that his thing he's like I can only do it if I've won and dine them first.

[00:35:04] The last piece of artwork that I want to talk about I think gives us an insight to maybe

[00:35:11] happen between Ethan and Daphne and that's that we see an image of a person receiving oral sex on

[00:35:17] a beach kind of off it's like an island over to the left under like some cliffs and I think

[00:35:23] that might be a clue as to what happened between Ethan and Daphne. I don't know why else they would

[00:35:29] show that so I do think maybe oral sex is what ended up happening there. And just as an interesting

[00:35:37] note I think that a lot of times the sex scenes in this show they show them as being very artsy and

[00:35:42] like romantic feeling and there's like you know dark shadows and I think they shy away from the ones

[00:35:50] that would probably be more awkward like if Daphne just went and gave Ethan a blow job in the sand

[00:35:56] I think that probably would be really hard to film in an artsy way and just be an awkward interaction

[00:36:03] Ethan doesn't seem like he would interact well so I think they don't show that for a reason but

[00:36:08] I also think it would be for this show funnida cut to something like that. But I also think it's

[00:36:14] about what we've talked about how things could go one way or the other or be one way or the other

[00:36:19] or even Daphne's speech about how you don't always know what's in other people's mind and I

[00:36:24] even surprised myself and just the ambiguity around flirting and everything this is ambiguous to

[00:36:29] we all think they did something but we don't know and I think that's that's another reason why

[00:36:33] they didn't show it just to leave it. Oh yeah, for a moment. Serious. Yeah same with Harper and Cameron

[00:36:39] we don't know if either of the two in this couple have cheated. Yeah I mean with everybody else

[00:36:44] well except for for Niko Loh and Tanya we don't see like the outright sex we see the sex.

[00:36:49] Albi and Lucia. Right we see the sex between you know Dominic and Lucia and Dominic and Cameron

[00:36:57] and Lucia and Albi. And then when it comes to these two couples it's like you know cut to black.

[00:37:08] Nothing. Yeah the ambiguity is super strong and it's obviously intentional.

[00:37:12] Yeah and that's like Cameron's whole thing like when he's like after Ethan and Cameron have that

[00:37:19] awesome ocean fight so tense when Cameron was Ethan was searching after him and goes out there

[00:37:25] and he's like fuck you you're not my friend you fucked my wife or whatever you know you don't

[00:37:30] the friend doesn't try to fucking other friends wife or whatever he said I was fully behind

[00:37:34] Ethan there by the way I'm like you're right that is no friends and you have every right and he's

[00:37:39] like what no why I'm proud of you we're friends and then they fight and then the next night at dinner

[00:37:44] he's like come have a seat with us and I'm like it's psycho dude. Yeah yeah but it's that's

[00:37:50] what they do man that's like in the airport at the end when Harper and Ethan are feeling more

[00:37:56] affectionate than they have this whole time I'm like they had something a change that changed them

[00:38:01] and this is how they're coming out of it and then you see Daphne and Cameron being affectionate

[00:38:07] and I'm like yeah this just and this happens every vacation for them it's the same thing.

[00:38:10] Right yeah yeah yeah yeah this was a good vacation for them. High five.

[00:38:15] And that was my second favorite scene was when Cameron and Daphne walked right up to

[00:38:22] eat them in Harper they're like hey that's up dinner at Ethan Hart just staring at them like

[00:38:30] really? Hart first like is this for real? They are so next level and you just realize you're

[00:38:37] in the masters I don't know masters of what but whatever it is their masters at it.

[00:38:42] Yeah and I really enjoyed that scene and I just then I could help enjoy Cameron Daphne. Yes

[00:38:49] Cameron is a douche but like when you're a douche like that you get pushed in the face

[00:38:55] and then you go right up to that person and say let's have dinner I mean I can't help but just

[00:39:00] be charmed. One thing that's I noticed is when because Cameron pays Luchia back and so there

[00:39:09] goes my theory that he doesn't have any money and I'm like okay then why did you take so long

[00:39:15] to pay her money? He's a rich person they do that. Right I know that's your theory but I'm thinking

[00:39:19] about what are some other possibilities and it's like he said to her when they first met when

[00:39:25] Mia came and Luchia came to the table with Ethan and Cameron he said hey baby I got money that's

[00:39:33] one thing I do have and that is a little tell maybe that he feels like in other ways I'm lacking

[00:39:40] you know like maybe he knows there's a little self-awareness that he's low integrity or something

[00:39:46] like that or and so maybe just giving the money is sort of an acknowledgement of that like

[00:39:55] yeah I'm low integrity and so that's why he kind of resisted but then after he got his ass kicked

[00:40:00] and then he laughed at that because he knew he deserved it that he gave it over so I guess my

[00:40:06] point in bringing this up is I think he's he gaslights everybody to an extent you know into feeling

[00:40:14] hey this is all okay but it's in a way just so he can get away like we're friends here I'm not

[00:40:19] I'm not I'm proud of you I'm not trying to like he's trying to get Ethan in a one-down position

[00:40:24] the whole time and take his girl but he's like no it's all good and he's a gas lighter and

[00:40:30] there may be a insecurity underlying that you know or a lack so I don't think I hear what you're saying

[00:40:39] that there is something impressive about being able to have this happen and then have a nice

[00:40:42] dinner afterwards where people are like I guess this is kind of fun but I also think that

[00:40:48] underneath it that he's got some dark stuff going on I don't know if it's fun in the long term I

[00:40:53] mean there's people like that I mean let's just say there are people in the political realm that are

[00:40:57] like that right and at a certain point everybody has a different break point in which they're just

[00:41:03] like oh wait that one event you know yeah that's that's where you went too far and I can't forgive

[00:41:08] you that right and then you'll see people who have not been broken by that event right and they're

[00:41:14] just like no I still support this person and he's like masking the truth of what's going on just

[00:41:19] in part so he can keep getting away with it too right that's what I see a lot of politics yeah you

[00:41:25] pretend things are different than what they really are and people buy into it and then you get

[00:41:29] to keep this behaving yeah you pretend it's not that way you minimize it no that was nothing

[00:41:36] yeah I tried to sleep with your wife but hey let's go to the mouth next yeah we're saying

[00:41:40] same thing pretending it's not a big deal yeah well that I'd not to jump in but one of my points

[00:41:46] was is Cameron associate path or narcissist and I think sociopath means they intend to do harm so

[00:41:54] I do think it leans more narcissist and the seven signs of a narcissist and I think we could

[00:42:01] probably think of examples of him doing all these is an inflated sense of self I mean he thinks he's

[00:42:08] great feeling angry or jealous of other success he clearly is upset that Ethan is doing as well

[00:42:15] as he's doing he thinks people are envious of them I do feel like there's a little bit of that with

[00:42:21] him and Daphne they like kind of see them yeah yeah and they see themselves as the best couple

[00:42:28] essentially in an ability to connect or empathize with others and I think that one's very on display

[00:42:34] yeah the assistant or just even like being like yeah Ethan might not want me to sleep with his wife

[00:42:40] like into it perceiving themselves as unique and special I don't know if we see as much example

[00:42:48] of this with him but he definitely seems to think he's pretty amazing I mean in this episode

[00:42:54] he is a little too busy looking at himself in the mirror to come talk to his kids for a little bit

[00:43:00] I don't know if there's more meaning behind that when he's flossing and Daphne keeps trying to

[00:43:04] call him over and he's just like staring at himself in the mirror I don't know if that's just him

[00:43:09] being like man I'm great or if he's thinking like oh shit I gotta go talk to this kid that's not mine

[00:43:15] I don't know exactly what's happening there they believe they can only relate to others like them

[00:43:21] so I feel like they very much set themselves up to only interact with other rich people yeah he calls

[00:43:27] they don't yeah people losers yep and Ethan hadn't heard from him until basically he suddenly had money

[00:43:34] again difficulty handling criticism I think the minimizing stuff is kind of a sign of that where he's

[00:43:43] he's not addressing any of his issues or not letting anybody else address his issues either

[00:43:48] also with narcissism if you have five of the seven characteristics that's it okay yeah yeah

[00:43:57] poor mood regulation we do kind of see that when he has that phone call with whoever lost his bag

[00:44:03] yeah craving validation or admiration from others he clearly wants Harper to want him

[00:44:09] yeah you I want you to like me yeah yeah constant fantasizing about becoming more successful and

[00:44:17] powerful absolutely yeah I think you have to to get to his level of rich and then a person

[00:44:23] pervasive feeling of entitlement and he feels entitled to like everybody else's stuff even Ethan's

[00:44:31] wife and his money and all of that but I think I mean he's clearly a narcissist I think he is

[00:44:40] a sociopath personally and a lot of sociopaths are also a narcissist yeah I think he went into this

[00:44:47] weekend wanting to take Ethan down an notch and take something from him I think that was a

[00:44:54] conscious goal but I could be wrong you know this is why I think yeah I think the only distinction

[00:44:59] I saw was that they intend to do the harm whereas narcissists it's a byproduct so yeah he I mean

[00:45:06] that is a good point that he did he does he knows Ethan has suddenly raised up his status and he

[00:45:13] this week spends it trying to knock him down an odd so that that is harm but yeah it's interesting

[00:45:20] that all through this he keeps just ignoring all these problems like I wonder does he tell

[00:45:26] Daphne how he got the black eye it just seems like he shows up and she's she looks at it a couple

[00:45:33] of times she notices it but I don't know if he's like oh yeah Ethan punched me in the face because I

[00:45:37] slept with his wife or if you're just like well I fell and I I hit it on something like

[00:45:42] or maybe she'd even ask she's gonna just ignoring things yeah that's the other thing yeah I mean

[00:45:47] she did have Ethan blow up in her doorway and go where the hell is Cameron and then run off so she

[00:45:54] could maybe put together that he ran down and punched him for some reason true and Cameron's the

[00:46:00] type of guy where I think you could be like yeah somebody's gonna punch him this week but yeah

[00:46:06] I think what you guys were saying too about how they show up to the dinner and they're just like

[00:46:12] like every interaction Cameron has had with Harper and Ethan have been these like horrible awkward

[00:46:19] interactions and he still sits down at dinner and it's like hey I want to toast to you guys

[00:46:24] and like how lucky are we that we got paired up into the same room and now we're together and wow

[00:46:31] Harper I've gotten to know you so much better this week and it's like that's that's such an insane

[00:46:37] thing to say to people that you've basically been manipulating and taking things from and they're aware

[00:46:43] of it as well so when even saying he loves his wife who he just cheated on yeah yeah so wild

[00:46:51] that's the game they play yeah somehow I still like him a little more than Jack I think a lot of

[00:46:58] you because he's charming you know and I think I know there's listeners going oh you guys are

[00:47:03] nuts he's he's great yeah he's made a couple small mistakes I mean people people love villains right

[00:47:12] and the more sleek and dapper they are yes or we love them and there's something about Cameron

[00:47:17] Daphne that is like the sleep that's sleek dapper narcissistic sociopathic charming villain that we're

[00:47:25] just kind of like yes we're kind of like yeah god we kind of wish we could pull that off right I mean

[00:47:30] maybe maybe we don't want to but but you know we can't help it admire it and want to watch well some

[00:47:35] people yeah it's like Nigen in the walking dead he has more fans than just about anyone but

[00:47:40] other villains that are like this guy Nicholas who's just whiny and oh yeah everyone fucking

[00:47:47] hates him so it depends on what kind of villain you are like you said yeah if you're charming and

[00:47:52] so pathetic you got a lot of fans also people send proposals to serial killers yeah yeah

[00:48:00] I'm prison as long as the as long as you're charming it's okay well I think you know I just

[00:48:06] people like happy people doesn't matter what makes them happy yeah yeah if you're actress and whiny

[00:48:13] and someone who can maintain that like I'm the party as things are going on and I don't want to get

[00:48:20] too political but I think Trump has this you know he can just be like yeah I'm the best no matter

[00:48:24] what happens to him people are attracted to that yeah and you they're very open with their flaws

[00:48:30] like you like with Nigen or any of these guys you're like already know the worst thing about him like

[00:48:35] yeah I can handle that and they kind of own it well a lot of the time anyway yeah all right

[00:48:42] I'm gonna go on to another point cool yes I want to talk about Burnt a little bit so

[00:48:49] Mia hugs Burnt because she got the job as a singer and she's I don't know why she's so thankful

[00:48:54] to him I guess just kind of celebrating because they had a connection because he liked her singing yep

[00:49:00] and he's very gentlemanly about it you know and then back to the table he go and I'm like oh I'm

[00:49:06] so proud of you for being gentlemanly and then he goes you know she could be my grand daughter but when

[00:49:11] she hugged me just now I got a little aroused are Achilles here isn't Achilles cock yep and you know

[00:49:19] I thought about it and I think our first reaction is to think there's that's bad but honestly

[00:49:28] it doesn't make me think any less of him in the moment he's being honest about his desire

[00:49:32] and he had the decency not to say anything about it to Mia knowing that's not where she was coming from

[00:49:38] and I just feel like I mean the problem in humanity is there's been so much sexual harassment

[00:49:49] and sexual violence at the hands of males and that's a huge problem and it's unacceptable

[00:49:57] but along with that especially more lately is I feel like there's a sense that

[00:50:04] that you shouldn't have that sexual desire is bad and should be hidden or shouldn't be there

[00:50:10] and I think that if like I don't know I think sometimes that men in general are more easily

[00:50:18] aroused or women or maybe just more generally attractive I don't know or maybe both

[00:50:23] but I see women getting hot and bothered with someone like Jason Mamoah come or Henry Cavill

[00:50:28] and as Witcher you know what they're sure they're like oh they have the same look but I feel like men

[00:50:34] and I could be wrong about this I'm waiting into some territory here that you guys have said

[00:50:39] you enjoyed on this podcast but I think men have that feeling more than women do in general just

[00:50:44] with more women and they just feel like oh yeah she's hot and that's become a shameful thing almost

[00:50:51] to think about or to feel I know most women would say the important thing is what we do about it

[00:50:57] and how we behave which I agree with but I've noticed things like in our Facebook group

[00:51:01] it's okay for women to openly express how hot an actor is but if guys in the group do that

[00:51:07] about female actors as well they just don't because they know that it would see it you know

[00:51:12] oh yeah she's hot but it's okay of like for Henry Cavill for all the women to like drool over him

[00:51:16] and I think that is because of the sexual harassment and sexual violence so it's like

[00:51:21] yeah but there's a lot attached to male desire and I don't like the idea of a man thinking

[00:51:28] a woman is attractive being conflated with the man being bad in all cases I don't want to teach

[00:51:34] my kids I want to teach them to pay attention I have two sons right to pay attention to where a

[00:51:38] woman is coming from and respect be respectful but I don't want them to feel ashamed of their

[00:51:43] desire and and so when Bert said this to Dominic my first thought was oh Bert but I'm like no

[00:51:52] no it's okay so K to feel a desire for a woman you just how it's your behavior that matters right

[00:51:57] so I don't know what do you guys think about that well one he said it to his sons so he's like

[00:52:02] saying it among the guys yeah so there's less likely to be for people to be offended though I guess

[00:52:07] I'll be might be offended and you know part I'll be seemed like he was pretty judgmental about it

[00:52:12] okay that's how he is man he's yeah prick sometimes and I mean this is a very minor

[00:52:18] aspect of it but one that I think I've been thinking about which is you know we cut we're in the U.S

[00:52:24] where we like the underdog we like things to be a little different um we don't want everything

[00:52:30] to be the same and the thing is for millennia men have been salivating over woman right and so

[00:52:37] for women to now openly salivate over men it kind of still has a twinge of like difference

[00:52:43] right yeah it's almost a novelty right so it's it's it's kind of cool now um if we if a guy

[00:52:50] like salivates or whoever is just gonna like uh okay you know that's just that's boring and typical

[00:52:58] and whatever we don't care we already assume you're doing it anyways if anything was kind of

[00:53:05] interesting is when when a guy is no longer excited by women right and then that can sometimes

[00:53:10] be like what's wrong with you right yeah I mean that might be the next step of this evolution

[00:53:16] of sexual well also like a woman if a guy who's not attractive expresses like oh I think you're

[00:53:23] hot they can be annoyed with it and if a guy who she is attracted to does it then she could be

[00:53:28] disappointed it's the same kind of behavior but it depends on the context you know but for a guy

[00:53:33] it's the same like sometimes I feel like attracted to different women and I don't want to have to

[00:53:39] feel ashamed of that but it's about whether you know you express it or not and how you express it

[00:53:44] at the power dynamics that have are subtly changing as well I think in the the Barbie movie she

[00:53:52] expresses like all these guys are looking at me and there's this undertone of violence with it

[00:53:58] and I think that's one of the major differences is I'm I've never felt like a woman is going to

[00:54:05] sexually assault me whereas I'm sure women feel that way much much more often so any expression

[00:54:14] of that level of that kind of desire is starting up that's the set of stairs that could lead to

[00:54:21] something worse where for a guy if a woman is like hey you're attractive you're like all right this

[00:54:27] is probably the end of our interaction I'm gonna live with this for the rest of my life though

[00:54:31] this will be the high moment of my life but it ends there and I think that's also one of the

[00:54:37] differences but like Jenny was saying to the novelty of women more openly expressing

[00:54:44] I think a lot of times it's the almost a satirical way that men used to

[00:54:51] describe female like celebrities and stuff that's almost what is happening now where women in a

[00:54:59] half joking way are describing all of these super handsome male celebrities the same way men

[00:55:06] used to and it probably will lose its novelty in the couple of years where we'll be like all right

[00:55:13] enough we get it like but I do think because it's kind of a new expression at this point there's

[00:55:20] a little bit of this is funny this is fun I mean there's been male strip clubs for

[00:55:26] you always hear that the women are way wilder at those things yeah I mean there's been like

[00:55:33] you know tip and there are no holds and like all these guys that have always been like

[00:55:38] sex studs and like they aren't getting that admiration from men so it has existed I think

[00:55:43] there's also a man on sky that from men to yeah fair I'm sure Jason Mamo is as well

[00:55:54] but yeah I do think there is just like there are some subtle differences and one of them

[00:55:58] most that men tend to be men men's not attraction men's verbal attraction to women comes with

[00:56:09] a whole lot more baggage that sure I mean I guess I'm more talking about just the idea that

[00:56:15] there would be any desire there I think a lot of people just initially think oh you're

[00:56:23] you're a pervert you're bad for having that desire and I don't like that but I all there is

[00:56:28] another like I also understand to where women or anyone might just be like can't we just have

[00:56:33] an interaction without sexuality having to come into it like I got this job and you liked my singing

[00:56:39] and I want to thank you for that and can't it just be that so it's complicated but it goes the other

[00:56:45] way too I mean I know there's guys who don't feel that way about a woman and she likes him and

[00:56:51] it just sex can complicate relationships sometimes yeah for sure and again I think it all comes down

[00:56:57] to context and the people that you're around like if it's a person you're a group of people you're

[00:57:02] super comfortable with you might have more leeway to express like oh I find that person very

[00:57:07] attractive like if you're watching a movie with your spouse I don't think there's gonna be

[00:57:12] as much of an issue but if you are expressing that with like a group of strangers essentially yeah

[00:57:19] it's changing the power dynamic and it's changing like what how do I just like the

[00:57:27] just like the tone of the situation where it's like all right well now I know this person

[00:57:32] might bring up sexual stuff if we continue down this path and I think that's where it gets tricky

[00:57:39] and you don't know every single person you're interacting with and what their level of comfortable

[00:57:44] this is with that like something could have happened to a person the week prior and like so I do

[00:57:49] think it depends on who you're talking to I do too I mean because there are two things we're talking

[00:57:54] about is yeah having desire and expression of desire and I think yes you're absolutely right

[00:58:01] part of being respectful to people is to understand the context and how you express yourself or

[00:58:09] whether you even express every desire you should not but I'm just saying I don't think having

[00:58:16] or feeling an attraction to someone should just be considered shameful well it's I mean it's not

[00:58:21] these days right I mean now we're discovering the wide variety of attraction there is out there right

[00:58:28] people liking this or that same sex opposite sex cis trans trans attracted trans cis attracted

[00:58:38] trans whatever I mean there's such a wide variety of desire to this point that I think it's

[00:58:45] anyone meeting someone for the first time might just be like I have no idea what your desire is

[00:58:48] probably know you really like to be hung by your thumbs with teacups placed on your nipples I don't

[00:58:53] know right and only that will like turn you on and that how many times I've heard Jenny open up

[00:58:59] conversations like so I mean if we are now aware of the wide variety of desire I mean it doesn't

[00:59:10] have to be expressed we don't need to know that you know her wants a little a little bit of rouse

[00:59:19] by Mia but it can happen and I'm not surprised by it if I go over 3000 years of human recorded history

[00:59:26] there's a ton of old people fucking young girls I mean we know that attraction exists

[00:59:33] as whether he expresses it does anything about it appropriately or inappropriately

[00:59:38] and I think for Bert who is he his wife is past yes yeah I think it's only been like a year too

[00:59:46] okay so he's single so in my opinion it should be okay for him to even express desire if he wants to

[00:59:54] but then he should pay attention to the reaction he's getting yeah if it's a no then shut the hell up

[01:00:00] and the degree to which he's expressing his desire like I agree that he's allowed to

[01:00:07] have been aroused by that hug like physically there was nothing he could do about that that

[01:00:13] happened to him but if he had then said to me like man I've got a a boner right now like that's not the way

[01:00:20] to like yeah but I mean even just the way you're putting it right where you're saying there's nothing

[01:00:24] you can do about it I feel like there's a maybe I'm not right but there's a tinge of

[01:00:29] because if he could do something about it he should really put a stop to that because it's awful

[01:00:33] I mean I just think sexuality is such a part of human nature and and there's so much judgment

[01:00:41] around it now and and it is because of all the sexual harassment and violence and there needs to be

[01:00:47] there needs to be a reckoning with that and change for sure but I just I guess I look I

[01:00:53] mean I don't want my kids to feel ashamed of their life I guess yeah biology is hard to break right

[01:00:59] and and how someone is aroused I don't think they really I mean it's really hard to shift and sometimes

[01:01:05] that just happens and they're just like I don't I mean I think about the gay people who didn't want

[01:01:09] to be gay right back in the 50s and 40s and you know um but we're because that's just why biology is

[01:01:18] I gotta say though I I understand the uh yeah that everybody has desires um and I think that's

[01:01:26] sort of the default setting for men that everybody is like you automatically are like all right

[01:01:31] you probably find scarlet your hands in attractive there's I think there is a little bit of um

[01:01:37] yeah I'm I'm I'm stream of consciousness in here so forgive me if my but I think there's a little bit of

[01:01:47] uh like a sexual aggression when men express their desire sometimes and I feel like it's oh yeah

[01:01:57] me too yeah it's it's the describing the desire as opposed to having the desire that I think is where

[01:02:05] we're trying to recalibrate a little bit and there are places you can go to just fully describe your

[01:02:13] desire there are like uh apps like fat life where you basically you're just on there and you're

[01:02:18] like I'm in bed being strung up by my thumbs and then you can meet other people who are into that

[01:02:24] and that's like the place that it's set up to express that I don't not saying whether or not

[01:02:31] it's good or bad that we're siloing all of these things but I think by doing that we're hopefully

[01:02:36] reducing the negative interactions people are forced to have that like their job as opposed to

[01:02:43] um somewhere where they're prepared for that type of interaction or I mean it sexual desire

[01:02:51] just complicates things too and I think that's a lot about what this season is about of the white

[01:02:55] lotus and at the end when albie and burt and um dominoe are at the airport in this attractive girl

[01:03:04] walks by and they all kind of notice her right but it's a little like after the week they've just had

[01:03:10] it's a little especially with albie and dominoe it's a little bit like oh my god and it's just that

[01:03:16] it's all about that sexual power I think that what that signifies in fact I read something like this

[01:03:21] in an interview with I think my wife is like just is a signal that their their their lives are

[01:03:28] going to be sexually fraught just because that's a factor you know they have the yeah the what did

[01:03:35] you say they're uh Greek tragedy is their cock or whatever yeah it inherited Achilles cost

[01:03:44] also by chromosome that's been passed on yeah yep it's interesting well I think we did it I think we

[01:03:52] saw sexual harassment so no no I want to so I want to kind of sag into Mia and Valentina talking

[01:04:01] about sexual politics um so in that scene we see Mia gets a job and it looks like it's a surprise

[01:04:09] for her too which was something I caught the second time around and and I think it was a surprise

[01:04:15] for Valentina in the mobile yeah she's like oh you're here uh what do I do no I'm hiring Mia

[01:04:20] that's just right and then I mean if you look at it from age a char point of view this is quite

[01:04:27] problematic yes love with Valentina and the only thing that makes this not uncool is the fact

[01:04:35] that Giuseppe is a dirty old guy who tried to sleep with Mia with promising things he could probably

[01:04:40] couldn't deliver right plus it's romantic Italy so none of the this happens all the time in every

[01:04:45] hotel yeah this is how you get your job Giuseppe slept with the last director but uh but still

[01:04:54] you're you can't help it be like yeah this is great like Valentina Mia you know they even though

[01:05:02] it's the the roles are switched uh and it could be just Valentina is doing the same

[01:05:08] ski v sexual harassment thing that a guy would have done for some reason we're like no this is great

[01:05:13] because it's her sexual awakening it's her um coming into her own um plus you know Mia is such a great

[01:05:21] singer um and I think that's why she hugged uh Bert because Valentina was like oh and the people

[01:05:26] like her and so Mia was probably thinking oh that's oh she knows that they had an impact yeah yeah

[01:05:32] so um so I think this is one scene in which we know on paper it doesn't look right but the context

[01:05:41] the rarity of this ever happening in the real world um I mean I'm not saying it's impossible but

[01:05:48] it's much rarer compared to like the other other situation um makes us kind of forgive it

[01:05:56] what what's rar about it that a woman gets to promote someone based on uh the sexual

[01:06:03] services she gets I think the fact that she wasn't like that wasn't a spoken part of getting

[01:06:12] this job also adds to that context of like it wasn't like Valentina met me and said hey do you

[01:06:19] want a job okay come have sex with me and it'll happen it's more like um Mia over time kind of

[01:06:25] one Valentina's admiration and she did play first and then later like provided her some more service so

[01:06:36] well also like we see Valentina ask Mia out for the night and Mia says yeah I'll

[01:06:43] I'll give you with you basically one more time but you should actually get with a real lesbian

[01:06:48] meaning she just plays around sometimes but she's not really and um she says I'll take you to some

[01:06:54] gay bars or and find a hot lesbian girl and Valentina's cool with that so that makes her giving

[01:07:01] her that job even more like oh it's not about wanting something from Mia anymore you know it's like

[01:07:08] but I still think it's all mixed up with sex too it's still got that sexually fraught you can't

[01:07:13] completely divorce it and say it's a purely altruistic thing she says it's based on Mary and we

[01:07:18] can't believe there's some truth in that because it seems pretty clear Mia is better than Gisepi right

[01:07:23] but also I don't I think it's clearly part of it that Mia slept with Valentina too

[01:07:30] to some extent or another but it's the not I mean it's not like um deceitful though that's

[01:07:35] the thing is their interaction I feel like is a little more pure like I think Mia it is somewhat

[01:07:42] transactional I think Mia thought if I helped Valentina with this I it might advance me but also she

[01:07:49] seemed sincerely to want to help you know it did yeah seem like it was contingent on that she didn't

[01:07:58] say that you know so it felt a little um more positive than some of the other there's a lot of deceit

[01:08:05] in this season yeah it makes me wonder about Mike White's uh personal life but this interaction

[01:08:13] felt good for the most part you know and one thing I liked about the interaction was she was just

[01:08:17] saying look I'm the boss I make the decision and I have to say you know as as as a woman

[01:08:25] she she gets a lot of pushback have you watched you know if you watch the whole series you know

[01:08:29] people are pushing back against her so she is kind she's firm and she directs people around but

[01:08:35] I don't think I think she gets more pushback than a male director would get

[01:08:41] right she gets pushed back from male employees there yeah yeah I don't want to go down to the

[01:08:46] beach oh fuck you it was not like I've been fired right I mean come on yeah I'm trying to imagine

[01:08:52] like a female waitress being like you as well I mean actually these days that's different yeah

[01:08:56] I did my do that but you know I'm trying to think of a female employee in Italy yeah yeah now say

[01:09:02] oh you're gonna regret this well maybe but I think you're right though I think yeah and it makes me

[01:09:10] wonder if that's intentional like I don't know I know in Russia for example that when I went to

[01:09:19] Russia for a week because I used to work at a software company and I got to go to Moscow the

[01:09:23] relationships between men and women men and women seemed a lot more like they were 30 years ago

[01:09:29] in the United States where there was a lot of showvinism basically and I don't know if it's

[01:09:33] like that more in Italy but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little bit more like that than it is

[01:09:36] here yeah it was interesting that she somehow ends this season seeming more confident feel like

[01:09:46] Valentina in the beginning seems like a confident character but by the end of this episode she seems

[01:09:51] to have leveled up even more confident like she tells Salvatore to just piss off basically she's

[01:09:59] like you've been hitting on a girl who could be your daughter and she says it right in front of

[01:10:03] Isabella with oh that might be a little bit Isabella doesn't seem to mind she's all

[01:10:07] yeah it's almost like she's saying it for her just like you know what fuck you move on

[01:10:14] and then yeah she gets rid of Giuseppe too yeah I mean I think she was always confident actually but

[01:10:20] she's not so angry now she does it more calmly and she's still assertive but not just

[01:10:27] angry at everyone and I think my my armchair psychologist reasoning for that is that she's

[01:10:32] spent her whole life denying herself and now she's been through this thing with Mia where she's

[01:10:37] explored her sexuality and been more true to herself and she's it's opened up a whole new world

[01:10:42] for her now she feels more comfortable in her own body more at peace with herself and even she's

[01:10:46] okay with Isabella and Rocco she's nice to them she's okay that Mia turned her down and

[01:10:52] suggested she go to gay bar and she's like yeah that's what I need to do keep exploring my sexuality

[01:10:56] and it's just a big relief to her and now she's projecting that whatever turmoil onto everyone else

[01:11:01] around her anymore and her aggressive moments are also in defense of other women like she basically

[01:11:09] gives Giuseppe shit because she thinks Mia's more deserving and she gives salvatorship for like

[01:11:15] hitting on Isabella none of those had to do with herself necessarily but she is more I do think

[01:11:22] comfortable like you were saying she's doing what Mia said last time like you said you like women

[01:11:28] why don't you help them yeah but it's also not that she's just being mean to men now because when

[01:11:34] Rocco was back she looks over and she's like Rocco yeah welcome back it's so nice and like think

[01:11:40] even they smile like they're like holy shit did that really just happen that's how I felt but it

[01:11:46] made me feel good yeah one of those sublime white lotus moments I do like the idea of her going

[01:11:54] out to a gay club with Mia and Lucia who she spent the first half of this like insulting and trying

[01:12:01] to chase away and then she's now basically become friends with them yeah that's it that's unexpected

[01:12:08] yep and great all right what about um what do you want to talk about next Jenny um I mean we

[01:12:19] haven't talked about Tonya's adventure yeah the uh what do you have okay so I felt Quentin's

[01:12:30] plot was a little too complicated I mean one he doesn't just push her off the bone in the middle

[01:12:36] of the Mediterranean they go all the way to Taur Mina you know anchor and then like they're gonna

[01:12:43] push her off the dinghy with rope right by shore I mean come on yeah just pose of a body

[01:12:49] I'm sorry much much I watched too much to cry or something yeah but I just remember thinking

[01:12:54] like Quentin yeah they should do better than that poisoned her or something they spent the last day

[01:13:01] very much like connecting themselves to her as well so if she disappears they're going to be

[01:13:07] the first people they ask yeah and to the point where some of the guys are like crying because they

[01:13:11] know what's about to happen yeah why I think it was yeah you're right it's um far fetched and

[01:13:18] it was more for our entertainment yeah right I mean I find that more far fresh than the fact

[01:13:24] that they would give her a great party because she went I mean like and excuse per party right

[01:13:30] oh I'm gonna murder him he's come on yeah well do they yeah why there must be some good reason

[01:13:38] that they had for something like an alibi or a strong reasoning or something but why not just

[01:13:46] yeah push her into the water on the way out there or something or did she tell anybody else she

[01:13:52] was going out to party the only other person who really knows this Porsche I mean all they had

[01:13:58] to do was give her like a ton of wine and push her off the boat she fell off the boat drunk

[01:14:04] yeah yeah so this the rope the duct tape Jenny's really good at stuff yeah yeah how would you have

[01:14:12] done it I mean I have to admit I love the style I mean I got to respect Quentin's you know

[01:14:17] desire to do this right you know according to his standards but what I loved is

[01:14:25] Tony kept getting clues of what was happening talking to Porsche oh they you know I loved when

[01:14:33] she said she didn't Tony said she didn't think um Quentin was Jack's uncle because he was

[01:14:40] fucking is or no like I don't not everything's on the up and up because I found him fucking his

[01:14:44] uncle I forget yeah but that it was just great tension when she found out that they don't actually

[01:14:52] have any money and that they said they're coming into windfall and she realized that was Greg

[01:14:57] that she saw in the picture and she's just get it it's like oh my god she's she's trapped on this

[01:15:02] boat with these guys drops her phone in the water it makes you think oh she's fucked because

[01:15:07] she's such a clumsy doof and then that's what made it more of a contrast when she goes and gets

[01:15:15] the gun well first she opens the bag and finds a rope and duct tape and like oh my god what the

[01:15:20] fuck is going on and then and then they're pounding on the door are you okay in there and then

[01:15:24] and then what I loved about the framing with the gun is she just starts firing and you only see her

[01:15:30] with the gun you don't see the results and you think ah she's not hitting any of them she

[01:15:34] dropped the fucking phone in the water and then you the camera opens up and there's all these dead

[01:15:38] people laying around and it's like oh my god she fucking did it and then another guy run off

[01:15:44] and then I love she's like Jack is there he's clearly mortally wounded but still alive

[01:15:50] Quentin Quentin Quentin sorry yeah and she's like did my did Greg cheat on me just Greg

[01:15:56] have a girlfriend and I'm like oh my god that's what you're doing right now you know that is so

[01:16:01] tonia it's like like a perfect client and I'm glad he didn't say anything because it felt more

[01:16:05] real for him to just be like stunned like what the fuck is happening here I'm about to die and then

[01:16:11] then you think you're so proud of her that she actually accomplished this and the two other

[01:16:16] guys run off scared jumping the water and then she fucking falls on her face and she almost doesn't

[01:16:23] do it and there's the moment where you're like all right yeah yeah figure out a new plan and she's

[01:16:27] like no I can do this yeah don't don't do it yeah there's a ladder right there go down the ladder

[01:16:33] well I didn't see the ladder but we've told there's a ladder at the back of the boat there was

[01:16:39] there's something she maybe could have done yeah there's a ladder in the back and the boat is

[01:16:42] in the front so he really was kind of in a bind I mean one guy jumped off the boat and was

[01:16:47] swimming away which I'm like wow he must be a good swimmer yeah is he one of the bodies they find

[01:16:53] no captain was the second one yep yeah he was still on the boat oh yeah that's why she was

[01:16:58] trying to get in the boat he was running around making noise as she was just like oh my god

[01:17:01] and uh oh because she had that conversation yeah yeah she had the conversation with him and he

[01:17:07] said he's gay and in her mind she's like if you're gay you work for that you're a killer yeah

[01:17:12] where it's just like an innocent bystander well I mean to me I took it maybe that meant that he was

[01:17:19] part of their crew that he was friends with them which could maybe mean he knows the plan or

[01:17:24] maybe not but yeah it's like you feel like well hey we can't communicate here and be maybe

[01:17:30] your part of their crew so I can trust you Quentin says about him in the last episode or yeah

[01:17:35] the last one where he says that's Thomas oh he doesn't speak any English she barely understands

[01:17:41] Italian on good days and then in that moment he turns around and yells at him and goes

[01:17:45] Thomas oh make the boat go faster in English so nobody seems to communicate with this guy

[01:17:53] but that tutike was pretty funny

[01:17:56] and of course you know Jennifer Coolidge after being told knowing he doesn't speak any English like

[01:18:01] just goes on and on and yeah I know not even basic English and it was a great moment too because

[01:18:07] it was tense because you think that he might just suddenly get an evil look in his eye or something

[01:18:13] like I don't know if you can trust this guy yeah but also realizing slowly that he's not

[01:18:18] understanding at all and you're like oh she is so stuck and then it was it was very well done

[01:18:25] sequence yeah crazy as hell and then the famous line she says these guys they're trying to murder me

[01:18:33] that has become like a cultural thing I think where like when she shows out places groups of

[01:18:38] people will yell at her she said something like because she's the original milk have we talked

[01:18:47] about that on the podcast so from American pie this teen sex comedy from the 90s

[01:18:55] that's where the term milk came from which stands for mom I'd like to fuck and Jennifer

[01:19:00] Coolidge played the mom and so that's where milk comes from and somebody asked her about that

[01:19:05] in interview and she said oh I've gotten laid so much off of that is she actually milked does she

[01:19:14] have kids I don't know I don't know actually I don't think it matters yeah yeah it doesn't matter

[01:19:23] as long as she stiffler's mom yeah yeah go ahead yeah well uh Mateo the guy who has the like kind of

[01:19:35] stereotypical mustache when she enters the room in the morning for breakfast he's clearly arguing with

[01:19:42] Quentin about something and then he ends up being the one who stays behind there like he's not

[01:19:47] coming with us and then when he says goodbye to her he's crying and they're like yeah he's a very

[01:19:52] emotional guy and it seems like last minute he was like I can't do this yeah which you don't really

[01:20:00] pick up on the first time you're like all right that guys odd but okay yeah so what about so Portia

[01:20:07] and Jack um that was pretty tense too just yeah so so that was Portia being just as dumb as Tanya

[01:20:15] oh I'm gonna confront this guy who's pretty much kidnapped me in the car yeah she could have asked

[01:20:21] outside of the car I was like what and then she like let's him drive her away

[01:20:27] because they have a relationship and she feels connected to I mean I'm not arguing

[01:20:31] through but I'm just trying to understand why she can do that she feels like they had you know it's

[01:20:38] like conflicting feeling I don't know if I can trust you but I do feel like I know you

[01:20:43] I do like is she so straightforward with him now she's just like

[01:20:47] I am I just up to her what yeah you stole my phone I know you have sex with your uncle like

[01:20:53] what is happening she has no guile but I thought was cool was she had the same

[01:20:57] she had the same face that she had with Albee finally you know she had that

[01:21:01] you know she was all relaxed with Jack before and now she's got that yeah for all brawl anxious

[01:21:06] comfortable uh and then when she meets Albee in the airport oh how did

[01:21:13] go with the guy oh he was deranged sort of about that girl she played me and then they're just

[01:21:17] sort of taking each other in and they had more chemistry in that moment than I think

[01:21:20] anywhere else in the series yeah she's like I should go with the boring safe guy can I

[01:21:24] can I get a number I know it does make you wonder if she'll date another bad boy ever again

[01:21:30] or if she's like no that always leads do you get in kidnapped and your boss getting murdered

[01:21:34] I mean everybody's help she's gonna be involved in a possible murder investigation

[01:21:41] yeah but I don't get back to the US oh yeah yeah I just not too smart yeah like some but um

[01:21:48] about whether um she'll go back to dating bad boys boys it's like some people's habits have changed

[01:21:54] like Harper and Ethan seem more more into each other um Dominic has trying to change even though

[01:22:03] at the beginning of the trip he scheduled in some prostitute time um he's trying to change now uh who

[01:22:10] else uh and Portia I'm cynical I just think they'll all go back to their old ways after time I think

[01:22:20] Ethan will start taking Harper for granted again I said Dominic will get back together with

[01:22:24] wife and then start fucking around and I think Harper maybe we'll go for more bad boys I hope not

[01:22:30] but I just feel like it's so hard for people to change yeah I was I was honestly a bit shocked

[01:22:37] that Dominic after talking to his wife and hearing the grace that she was giving him didn't hang up

[01:22:45] through the huge sigh of relief in the call of the process you know because like I kind of know

[01:22:50] that feeling when you realize you've got away with something and then you're just kind of like

[01:22:54] all right now let's uh go back to I reckon I mean really yeah

[01:23:00] yeah

[01:23:01] well that way yep so that's why the fridge is always left open

[01:23:07] or you know you yeah you know oh look there's the ice cream it's it's there I thought I had

[01:23:13] eaten it all but there's another pint yeah and nobody's gonna get mad at me yeah it's like

[01:23:19] it got reset I get it I mean I think after something like that where you're afraid you're gonna lose

[01:23:26] everything then you're like I'm gonna fucking change and it would last at least a week I would say

[01:23:35] well I think that leads into one of my points which is about how Albey I think is becoming a

[01:23:41] de grosso man in this episode he starts out as just a nice guy who doesn't want to end up like

[01:23:48] his father and his grandfather and they treat women however they want to get whatever they want

[01:23:53] but by the end of this week Albey does the same thing he gets what he wants but he does it at

[01:23:59] the expense of his mother he wants $50,000 from his dad and every even in the conversation Albey is

[01:24:07] having with his dad he keeps saying like oh now you have a conscience like he's very aware that his

[01:24:13] dad is not a changed guy but despite that because he wants something he tells his mom his dad's

[01:24:22] changed and he's better he compromises this morals in a way that he had said he didn't want to do

[01:24:27] when Dominic first asked him to put a word in right and at the expense of another woman

[01:24:34] in his mom who he's basically now saying like yeah get back into a relationship with him because I

[01:24:40] want to have a relationship with this woman well I will give him a bit more leeway he doesn't know

[01:24:45] Dominic fucked we see yeah in B.A. because if he did I think he would be way more pissed yeah that's true

[01:24:50] that's true but up until this point he's been he seemed very sure that Dominic has not changed

[01:24:59] and now suddenly when it suits him to decide maybe he has then or else I actually don't think

[01:25:06] he has decided maybe Dominic has changed in fact what you just said actually because he already

[01:25:11] thought that and so he hasn't seen any evidence that Dominic has changed the only thing that's changed

[01:25:17] is that he wants to be with Lucia well he you know I mean I'm sure in his brain he was like dad

[01:25:23] hasn't paid for his sins and I was like oh does pay for his sins right now it happens to be 50,000 euros

[01:25:28] carmic yeah that's between yeah maybe that's how he sees it but that's rational rationalization

[01:25:33] yeah aren't we rational humans and then when I think we see him look back with his dad

[01:25:45] and his grandfather at the woman in the airport that feels like kind of the final tick of like

[01:25:50] he's one of these guys like as much as he's tried to separate himself he is a de grosso man

[01:25:56] yeah to a different degree what does that mean a de grosso man who is manipulated by sex you say

[01:26:03] who is driven by sex you can't help it a beautiful woman for him who did is better yeah and

[01:26:09] and disrespectful to women yeah like on the other end of all of this he's not caring for his mother

[01:26:18] who is a person who's already in his life because in that conversation he says like you're not

[01:26:24] you're finally showing a conscience when it because his dad says well I can't in good conscience

[01:26:30] give you 50,000 dollars he's like oh you have a conscience now so Albee doesn't believe his

[01:26:35] dad has a conscience in the same conversation he's saying I'll tell mom you have a conscience now

[01:26:40] right yeah and I also think this whole thing like I loved it when um Dominic said to him

[01:26:49] you know or he goes we've been talking about her coming to visit L.A. dad and he goes come on man

[01:26:54] I mean how are you gonna make it in life if you're this big a mark just straight up and he's totally

[01:26:59] right and Albee is getting an education here and hopefully he will learn from it yeah I think

[01:27:07] there's a chance he could learn from this you know I'm saying people go back to their old habits but

[01:27:11] when you have something like this happen hopefully you're a little more careful yeah although his old

[01:27:16] habits are being maybe too nice so maybe that's where he'll end up again I don't know I mean I

[01:27:23] think Albee sees his dad is sad about where he is whether he believes his dad is going to cheat again

[01:27:31] or not I it's very easy to not be very easy if you could have caught his mom been like look dad is

[01:27:36] really really upset I think dad really regressed what he did I can't say whether dad is ever gonna

[01:27:40] not do that again or do that again but he truly is you know upset on this trip you could say that

[01:27:47] honestly it's still not like he wasn't willing to do that until he wanted something yeah

[01:27:53] because his dad asked him like a day before to do it and he was very against it because he doesn't

[01:27:59] think his dad deserves it but he did it anyway because he wants to have this cute girl yeah

[01:28:04] he just wants 50,000 which also that plan doesn't necessarily because he finally understands

[01:28:10] where his dad's coming from maybe yeah I mean I think one thing about him that you've talked

[01:28:15] about a lot Jenny is this savior complex and I think that's wrapped up in him feeling superior morally

[01:28:20] superior you know more progressive and he's very judgmental and he's I think this whole experience

[01:28:28] could potentially make him into a little bit better of a human to where he's like okay okay I get it

[01:28:34] like we're all flawed and I should like get up my high horse and humble myself a little bit

[01:28:42] yeah it does make you wonder if in the end lucha did give Albee what he wanted which was to rescue

[01:28:48] somebody not necessarily like what he wanted in the immediate but his whole thing was like oh I

[01:28:56] really like I end up with wounded birds and he like yeah the whole week is just like I don't care

[01:29:01] I just want to help her and she let's help him I feel like maybe she gave him what he needed but

[01:29:08] I don't yeah not what he wanted yeah and with her like she's she's like in bed with him and he

[01:29:15] goes I'm gonna help you and she goes I don't want you to go and instead of saying thank you

[01:29:20] she's pretending that her main focus is liking him to keep him hooked in and I'm just like oh my god

[01:29:25] and then she has her head resting on his chest so he can't see her face and she looks kind of down

[01:29:29] and at first you might think that's she's sad that he's leaving but in hindsight I think she's

[01:29:34] feeling guilty about streaming him along yeah but uh I think um uh you know that old fable about the

[01:29:42] I guess frog in the scorpion where the scorpion needs help getting across the river and he says

[01:29:48] I'll write on your back and the frog says no you'll sting me and he goes no then then we'll both die

[01:29:52] and he goes oh okay good point and then he get halfway across in the scorpion stings the frog

[01:29:56] and the frog is like what's going on with that and he goes hey it's in my nature

[01:30:00] and I think that's the thing with Lucia even though she likes him and it really recognizes

[01:30:05] he's a good guy yep she's a scorpion

[01:30:14] I was like here's someone in the surface I mean I thought this was different from the first

[01:30:17] season because in the first season the service industry gets screwed and here the service industry

[01:30:23] she's the winner and you can't help but be it you know like well for me to

[01:30:31] can't help but support the underdog a little bit I mean he's fairly privileged as he tells

[01:30:37] us dad this is nothing for you it's not even his money yeah it's a stats money um dad's getting

[01:30:43] something out of it I mean you know my correct economics always taught us you know a transaction

[01:30:47] happens when everybody gets something out of it so everybody's getting something out of it

[01:30:52] I don't I'll be getting a lesson and it was free for him and then at the end we see

[01:31:01] Alessio hugging Lucia and Mia and they're all friends yeah and Alessio is a door man so he's

[01:31:09] also in the service industry yeah service industry at unite it's a union and I was like what

[01:31:15] what the fuck like I had no clue and if you heard our spoiler segments you know that and I did not

[01:31:22] see it coming I thought at the least she was pretending to like I'll be because she had to pay

[01:31:27] this guy off but not that it was a total scam so yeah that's a big out like oh my god uh she was

[01:31:33] conning him from the start and even when she said she dreamed of moving to LA I think that was just

[01:31:37] that she sensed he'd want to sweep her away and take her there so it was all I think she knows key

[01:31:43] and Dominic are from LA yeah so it would be like my dream is to go to where you live that's such like

[01:31:49] uh because they can easily be like well I don't have to uproot my life to bring you there you can just

[01:31:54] come with me I mean she totally lost that on ability to probably stay crash at Hollywood Hills

[01:32:01] mansion yeah I'll just played it a little differently just been like you know I'm at my age

[01:32:08] of grandma I need to take care of her but I would join you in in a month yeah that's what you know

[01:32:15] thank you for the $50,000 now we can buy her medicine come on I mean I think like I don't

[01:32:21] approve of what she did but I also think uh Dominic is right like dude you're a fucking

[01:32:27] marquee deserve what you got yeah I think she's impressive and like how well she did it

[01:32:34] yeah I mean she was clean yeah she that was a clean kill I would have fallen for that

[01:32:39] drag it up and sink her at his hardcore and it would hurt like hell yep I also wonder if she

[01:32:46] paid a lesso anything or if she was just like yeah I know I know a big score it's gonna be

[01:32:51] $2,000 and you're getting 20% of it like she might have been playing everybody yeah we don't know

[01:32:59] but it was kind of fun just to see them all having fun at the end yeah yeah like it was another season

[01:33:04] like the first season where more people come out happy than you might think or at least

[01:33:10] when more quote unquote winners I guess yeah not tanya but well it's it's where you know

[01:33:18] flawed people come out winners and you don't feel necessarily good or bad I mean it's weird

[01:33:23] because you know she caught him at the same time you're just like oh look she you know she

[01:33:28] caught him yeah you know I know the US has a has they love you know bad outlaws right we love outlaws

[01:33:38] so in a way yeah that kind of thing Albee seems to take it pretty well too very quickly like

[01:33:46] as soon as he wakes up and she's not in the bed he knows what happened and he's not when he tells

[01:33:51] Porsche he's like in like shrug yeah yeah yeah I guess that means he thought that was like you know

[01:34:00] that was a possibility yeah either that or he just just good at letting things roll off yeah

[01:34:07] I did look up when we were discussing the conversation luchia and alesso had in the alleyway

[01:34:14] somebody did who spoke italian wrote up what they said and she says what's up he says are you having fun

[01:34:22] she says yes I'm having fun he says why didn't you respond to my message and she says because we're

[01:34:27] going for a walk but then she says that this person says alesso says something inaudible incomprehensible

[01:34:35] to me while he grabs her but it almost sounds like he's just mimicking or mocking what she just said

[01:34:40] then she pulls away and says what the fuck are you doing and then walks off so even in italian that

[01:34:46] probably would have come across as like a legitimate interaction and that's smart because you don't

[01:34:51] want people who understand italian to know what you're saying yeah and I also wonder about that

[01:34:58] scene in which she says an italian and translate and you know I wish all men were like you and whether

[01:35:03] she's thinking like the world would be so different if all men were like you or man life would be so

[01:35:11] that by the way the actress played it it seemed to me like she it was the first one you know

[01:35:20] like most men are jerks and I wish more men were nice I think you're just like four layers into her

[01:35:27] long con here this is the actress now who has got you going like no she's a good person

[01:35:34] I'm not saying she's a good person but I'm saying I really do think she she liked him and she

[01:35:41] she's like the scorpion who felt bad about having to stick in the frog.

[01:35:46] All right notes

[01:35:49] one little note is when Cameron reveals that he and Ethan were Yale roommates

[01:35:55] and when this episode came out I read this review or someone said like I can't believe two

[01:36:00] Yale roommates didn't mention that from the first episode.

[01:36:04] And I was like yeah.

[01:36:07] All right I only had one note and that is something I've been meaning to say but I keep forgetting

[01:36:12] is the actress who plays Mia is Beatrice Gerano and she attended a musical academy in Italy as a

[01:36:19] kid so I just wanted to see if she had any musical background I'm sure. Oh interesting they wanted

[01:36:24] somebody who could sing of course right so that's that's pretty cool.

[01:36:29] I have a bunch of notes one slightly bigger one but I think it was fun this time watching to see

[01:36:37] who it seems like they're setting up as the possibilities of characters who are going to die in

[01:36:41] this episode because up until this episode it could be anyone so we see Ethan and Cameron fighting

[01:36:46] in the water you're like either one of them could drown the other at that point.

[01:36:51] We saw people die too so it could have been one of them in the water yeah.

[01:36:56] Lucey's pimp could potentially kill Aldi.

[01:36:59] Jack might have killed Porsche that was a terrifying.

[01:37:02] I was afraid of that yeah that I think was scarier to me than Tanya's whole interaction like

[01:37:08] he drives her to the I don't know abandoned building.

[01:37:12] Yeah especially when she kept questioning him and he goes yeah he flipped out yeah pretty freaking.

[01:37:17] Andy also told her earlier on that he had to go take a shit which you know just another.

[01:37:22] So sexy yeah just another notch on jackspost we're also let to maybe think Bert might fall and get

[01:37:31] hurt or die and then obviously Quentin killing Tanya for her money but a couple of theories I saw

[01:37:37] that I hadn't thought of but are right there is people were guessing that Bert might kill Lucey

[01:37:43] or protect his family the other one yeah apparently when Tanya was having sex with Nicarlo

[01:37:53] in the background there's a red light that turns on so people were theorizing that Quentin

[01:37:58] was actually just gonna blackmail her by filming her having sex with Nicarlo.

[01:38:03] I thought maybe she was gonna say the prenup was it unless she cheated but she didn't it was

[01:38:09] no she died yeah so I wonder if the whole thing with Nicarlo spending the night with her is also

[01:38:14] just a little bit of a like red herring like making us guess what was gonna happen.

[01:38:22] But then yeah into my notes we see a bunch of tattoos jacks two crossed hammers or axes which

[01:38:29] is a football team he also has the word cowabunga written on his neck which I think was very prominent

[01:38:36] yeah just jack. Portia is a tattoo that says a life that's good which is her actual tattoo but

[01:38:43] feels appropriate for the character um but I think Jonathan Bookalil has photographed that

[01:38:49] actress by the way oh yeah hailey something yeah oh that's awesome yeah let the look and see if

[01:38:55] she's got them tattoo showing um both jack and Quentin ask Portia and Tanya at some point in this

[01:39:02] episode what are you doing and I think like that's a very ominous question to ask somebody it's

[01:39:08] generally not you're not asking them what are you doing you're saying stop doing what you're doing

[01:39:15] so uh jack asks Portia that when she's looking for her phone when she first wakes up and Quentin

[01:39:22] asks Tanya when she's looking at the photos of Greg they both throw up behind and they're just like

[01:39:27] what are you doing um Ethan as he's running out to go fight uh Cameron sees a painting of a woman

[01:39:36] who has a bunch of flaming arrows coming to her face seems to imply either Ethan's going to

[01:39:42] be hurt or he's going to throw some flaming arrows at Cameron's face which he does

[01:39:49] and then at the end I noticed there's a guy standing up top above the airport who looks a lot like

[01:39:56] jack he's got a car parked up there he looks like he's maybe eating a rice bowl and he's got his

[01:40:02] manurisms in the way he moves so in the last couple of scenes at the airport we do end up seeing

[01:40:08] every character who's still alive um and then technically Valentina was right in the beginning

[01:40:17] of the episode where she said oh thank god none of the murders happened on resort property they

[01:40:23] happened on a yacht outside of the resort so she is completely in the clear for that one

[01:40:30] and then the last two pieces are trivia that I found and one is that the beach scenes are filmed in

[01:40:38] safalu on the north coast of Sicily while the resort scenes are filmed in termina on the east coast

[01:40:44] which are 230 kilometers away so it's a heck of a shuttle ride each morning to get down to the beach

[01:40:52] and then where are we wait no the beaches the beaches in taramina because the isola bella is also in

[01:40:59] taramina well I think maybe what they filmed that was a beach further away I assume but they are

[01:41:05] setting it in that spot but I don't know if that's where they actually filmed is the impression

[01:41:10] that I got from the spit of trivia unless you were found other info I just remember going on google

[01:41:17] maps and finding taramina and then saying oh there's a isola bella with a little tiny spit of land

[01:41:23] attached to it yeah I didn't yeah I was out of light view it but now I think I might

[01:41:30] maybe they just filmed the isola bear apart yeah that's true and then when people were actually

[01:41:35] on the beach it was a whole different beach and then the last piece was that um supposedly Evan

[01:41:42] Peters was supposed to play Ethan but he was too busy filming Dahmer and he said he was devastating

[01:41:49] that he wasn't able to get the part and I feel like I don't know if you would have been the same

[01:41:55] feel for Ethan probably not I think I know him as being a little too charismatic yeah he's so good

[01:42:03] in American horror story I haven't seen Dahmer but he's a very good actor and he was great as

[01:42:09] quick silver in the X-Men movies too and I hope that means he'll be in a future white lotus yeah

[01:42:15] that's great one of my favorite actors yeah and I want to see and I wouldn't want to see him play

[01:42:21] Ethan the way that Ethan was played here because I don't like Ethan but I also want to see that

[01:42:27] other thing that that actor was in that people seemed to like too just because it seemed to like it a lot

[01:42:31] yep I'll check that out okay yeah I'm looking at a satellite view or you know

[01:42:39] not satellite what you put the little person street view except of the Isola Bella and it's a very

[01:42:45] pebbly stony beach so they must have filmed the sandy beach seeing somewhere else but then whenever

[01:42:50] they walk to Isola Bella that's actually from the base of the hill yep of Tehramina yeah make sense

[01:42:58] I know I want to watch rich people go to a pebbly stony beach that's why not very much is filmed in Maine

[01:43:07] that's it that is it Ariva Dirti

[01:43:28] we're back it's time for some news um us weekly asked some questions of Mike White

[01:43:34] I read some of those before but I saved some for the anterior because they would have been

[01:43:38] spoilery will Greg be held responsible for plotting to kill Tanya he says I think as far as what happens

[01:43:46] to Greg and the conspiracy of Tanya's death it's possible that I think Portia is scared enough

[01:43:51] to just leave it alone but the fact that all those guys die on the boat it feels like there's got to

[01:43:56] be somebody who's gonna track it down to Greg but maybe you'll have to wait to find out what happens

[01:44:02] so maybe that story will be ongoing maybe interesting yeah or some web episodes

[01:44:07] let's see if I sissly did Harper and Cameron just kiss he says the question of whether

[01:44:16] Harper and Cameron did more than kiss I think probably that's just all that happened at the same time

[01:44:22] there's some time that isn't really accounted for and I think that's why it's eating at Ethan well

[01:44:26] yeah yeah so he's saying he thinks that's all that happens but he doesn't you know it's not no

[01:44:34] Theo James who played Cameron said I think Harper feels oddly attracted to this monster that is

[01:44:40] Cameron but she's also trying to use the incident to wake Ethan from his existential and sexual

[01:44:46] reverie in terms of what specifically happened though it was probably more than she led on by half

[01:44:51] maybe not the most extreme version of that scenario but there was something else

[01:44:57] they asked did Ethan and Daphne hook up in the season two finale Mike White said

[01:45:02] did Ethan and Daphne have some kind of dalliance on the island or whatever happened

[01:45:05] that allows Ethan to let go of the jealousy that has been brewing with him he kind of brings back

[01:45:10] that first kind of sexual charge that happens in the beginning of relationships as sometimes fades

[01:45:15] away over time so he didn't really answer but I feel like that's a yes something happened yeah

[01:45:23] and then Theo James said that's deliberately opaque for a reason well what's the reason you're

[01:45:28] being opaque um and last they said what was the airport scene with Bert and Dominic and Albee

[01:45:35] implying and Mike White said at the end of the show you see three generations of men and there's

[01:45:39] this attractive woman across who crosses they all sort of got at her and my hope is that Dominic does

[01:45:44] change so there is a little bit in the texture of it that their relationship with women is going to

[01:45:48] always be fraught with the sexual desire yeah next thing HBO and max chairman slash CEO Casey

[01:45:59] Blois told reporters that the white lotus season three is likely not going to be out until 2025

[01:46:05] because of the strikes

[01:46:09] will film a yeah we'll film a fan one in the mean time yeah we're we're starting to three of us

[01:46:14] um at the motel six

[01:46:18] yeah you guys are hot sprays it'll be called the motel six

[01:46:24] that seems ridiculous to me because the first season of the white lotus got a limited series

[01:46:30] order from HBO in October of 2020 and then came out in July of 2021 nine months later

[01:46:37] so they they're seeing the actor strike seems like it's closing in on

[01:46:42] concluding I hope so soon if it ends fairly soon then why can't they just do season three but

[01:46:48] you know nine months from now in august or september of next year why

[01:46:53] maybe they haven't even cast I mean that I get the sense that Mike White often

[01:46:58] kind of writes a story depending on it like he has a story but then someone is cast and they might

[01:47:03] bring something new and then he changes his story and they might not even be able audition at this

[01:47:08] point right because they're still striking so you're not even at that stage it was fast tracked in

[01:47:12] the beginning because they needed something for covid where they could have a bubble and film it

[01:47:16] altogether and because of that Mike White was rushed to write it and he didn't get a lot of notes

[01:47:21] from HBO since it was so fast so I don't think so I think they came up with the idea and they

[01:47:26] had it out nine months later yeah but you know everyone was in a bubble and he could get anyone

[01:47:30] to show up now all these actors are doing their own way will you come up with a lot of reasons why

[01:47:35] they should have it for 2025 but my opinion they should do it the same they did this season one

[01:47:39] who are you working? We want you to rush it hey it works my favorite season of the White Lotus was

[01:47:45] the rushed one yep do that again we want the erect cut damn it in a feature at after the finale

[01:47:54] Mike White talked about tanya's death he said in the end of last season tanya's sitting with Greg in

[01:47:59] the last episode and he's talking about his health issues and she says I've had every kind of

[01:48:03] treatment over the years death is the last immersive experience I haven't tried and I was thinking

[01:48:08] to be so fun to bring tanya back because she's such a great character but maybe that's the journey

[01:48:11] for her the journey to death not that I really wanted to kill tanya because I love her as a character

[01:48:16] and obviously love Jennifer but we're going to Italy she's such a diva a larger than life female

[01:48:21] archetype it felt maybe we could devise our own operatic conclusion to her life and story

[01:48:26] I just think her dying at the hands of someone else felt too tragic it felt like she needed to give

[01:48:32] her best fight back and that she in a way had some kind of victory over whoever was conspiring to

[01:48:37] get rid of her it just made me laugh to think like she would like take out this cabal of killers

[01:48:42] after she successfully does that and she just dies this derpy death and that's so tanya

[01:48:48] yes it is and then he's about Cameron Daphne Ethan Harprey said by the end you're like well maybe

[01:48:56] what Ethan and Harper needed was just a small dash of what Cameron and Daphne have it feels like

[01:49:01] Cameron to me is one of those guys that's not really going to change some of the unspoken things

[01:49:06] between them you wonder if that's gonna ultimately catch up with them as somewhat of a happy ending

[01:49:10] although there's dark clouds on the horizon too yeah do we think they're going to go on another

[01:49:16] vacation together well they said Mowdai well Daphne was like Mowdai is next year I was like

[01:49:22] not I mean does it just wouldn't work a second time I mean like when you meet people like this

[01:49:29] and they do whatever they did to your marriage right that first time is it gonna work us

[01:49:36] but it'd be funny if they were like oh we're gonna go to Mel Dives you guys want to come and Daphne

[01:49:41] I mean Harper and Ethan are both like yeah and then they look at each other like wait why

[01:49:45] wait no one goes to me and that's it for the news let's get into some feedback we had a couple

[01:49:53] of calls on previous episodes first one is Enwin on season two episode four. Yeah Enwin

[01:50:01] hello gracious hosts of the white lotus this is Enwin I am quite behind on the podcast because

[01:50:09] I well you know just life gets in the way but I did have some thoughts that I wanted to share on

[01:50:16] episode four and this was the one that I felt where characters were just all flipping these scripts

[01:50:24] which I really enjoyed watching I think it was Cole Halle who says now really weary of her

[01:50:29] profession but Mia is ready to embrace it and then Giuseppe was super suave and sleazy at the start

[01:50:35] and now he's really helpless and a different character I thought that was really fun to watch

[01:50:40] Harper and Ethan and Daphne and Cameron that was so fascinating seeing the aftermath of their

[01:50:46] big night and I think there can be a bro code but I don't think it should always apply in a marriage

[01:50:54] you should first loyalty should always be to your partner and obviously you don't tell them

[01:50:58] absolutely everything that your friend says or does but when it is something important like that

[01:51:02] thing for sure and the same with Harper telling Ethan about her night they had already discussed the

[01:51:09] other couple in detail so it was kind of a continuation of that and I don't feel that it was her

[01:51:13] being bitchy as though like Daphne had described women that she's met before she barely knows

[01:51:20] Daphne so of course she's going to talk to Ethan about what she was like and Porsche getting it on

[01:51:26] with Jack our have to disagree with you Andy about Jack I like him I think he is what he is there's

[01:51:32] no pretence about him at all he does flirt really outrageously but she's wanted that she just wants

[01:51:37] that adventure and now she's smiling it's awesome I feel really sorry for Albin but I definitely do

[01:51:44] see the appeal of Jack I myself went to England for a year when I was 19 and in New Zealand it's kind

[01:51:52] of a thing or was then where if you told someone that you liked them and they didn't like you it

[01:51:57] was kind of real shame like oh my god I put myself out there and they didn't like me so you just

[01:52:00] people just wouldn't and people were just shy and they just wouldn't do it and I got to England

[01:52:05] and I got asked out like three times in the first week and it was not a big drama it was like oh I

[01:52:10] darling how you doing fancy a drink and if you said no they'd be like okay great you know

[01:52:15] and it was just it was just cool and I just think he's got that kind of I love that

[01:52:21] laddish kind of appeal that she's after on our holiday and then the last thing I wanted to talk about

[01:52:26] was product placement you mentioned a little bit about the duerex and my husband worked in

[01:52:32] the film industry in LA for many years and he was a production designer so he knows quite a lot

[01:52:37] about product placement he was filling me in on a few things and it depends on the movie if

[01:52:42] you have a really low budget movie with no big actors or anything often you have to pay to have

[01:52:47] your product have a product placed in your film but the bigger the movie the bigger the actors

[01:52:52] the companies actually pay to have their product in the film and if you have someone really

[01:52:57] huge like Tom Cruise you know interacting with a product drinking a can of coke or like wearing

[01:53:03] a watch or something like that it's absolutely massive and some of the movies actually end up

[01:53:09] in profit before the movies even made because they have got so much from the product placement

[01:53:14] so that's just a little bit of interest. Anyway that's gone on way too long really enjoying

[01:53:19] the podcast thank you so much and I will catch up at some stage keep doing what you're doing because

[01:53:24] it is awesome. Bye! Oh thanks I'm in she said she's like the podcast as much of the show which is

[01:53:31] really nice. It's all of our like really interwoven writing that we do every week. It's all scripted by

[01:53:38] the way yeah yeah every line. I'm curious how she feels about Jack now. Well she sent in another call

[01:53:48] after the finale so we'll play that later and find out if her feelings of change or if she loves

[01:53:52] them just as much. And before that new caller Tony and Colorado called about episode 5.

[01:54:02] Hi this is Tony in Colorado and I was just listening to you guys talk about episode 5 of The White

[01:54:10] Lotus and I just wanted to say that and forgive me you might have mentioned this but Jack in my opinion

[01:54:19] came across as a sex worker himself. I think he was hired by the gaze to distract

[01:54:28] what's her name the little assistant. And keep her out of the way but also probably to have sex

[01:54:37] with the uncle. He's a sex worker and that's why he does what he does and he probably doesn't have

[01:54:44] that much money but he's a he's a bad guy and when he calls um what is her name the assistant

[01:54:56] orsa? A flag it was I don't know I got I took the tone is very mean spirited it wasn't like

[01:55:07] bitch we're having fun and we're hanging out. No it was kind of like yeah you're a flag

[01:55:13] you know he'd had no respect for her he doesn't like her he is being paid to do a job.

[01:55:19] So that's that and then I really liked what um what you guys said about about Daphne

[01:55:29] because I never once I always thought that she was implying that the personal trainer

[01:55:34] was the father of her child or children and um I never once thought that maybe he was or she was

[01:55:44] just defining how important her children were in her life. I never even thought of that so I

[01:55:49] thought that was a really good take anyway let me know what you think um um I love that you're

[01:55:56] covering this and I really I listen to every word so thank you all right thanks.

[01:56:05] Yeah let's say yeah calling again but it might be a while before you hear from us again

[01:56:10] I'm curious if you've checked out any of our other shows uh if you haven't check out podcastica.com

[01:56:15] maybe there's something else you can get into there. Yeah I didn't have the thought that Jack

[01:56:21] might be a sex worker for Quentin. I always kind of assumed they had more of a relationship

[01:56:28] but it's very possible. Oh no I think she's right yeah I think he's a hired gun and he

[01:56:34] I think he does whatever they want yeah it's sex work but you know whatever I mean even a hitman

[01:56:42] who knows. Yeah yeah but I wondered if she figured that out before she'd finished watching the

[01:56:49] series or if she was thinking that as she was watching along right at this point in episode five

[01:56:55] because if you already were thinking at this point you were ahead of me for sure.

[01:57:00] I mean I think there's a twist of relationship between him and Quentin. There is some sort of

[01:57:06] because he does say like he saves me kind of statements right so there's that sort of yeah

[01:57:12] and that sort of messed up relationship that Albi may have root who would have re-created with

[01:57:17] Lucia if she really was you know a save someone to be saved. Yeah so I mean Quentin's dark he will

[01:57:26] hire someone to kill someone. I don't think Albi would ever do anything like that so there could be

[01:57:30] some degree of that type of dynamic but it wouldn't be as extreme yeah but it does sound like Jack was

[01:57:38] saying before Quentin came along and saved me and hired me to do all this stuff it was even darker

[01:57:44] so I mean it is definitely a relative statement. Yeah I think yeah he he baby was on drugs or in a lot

[01:57:54] of trouble maybe close to death or kill himself or something really dark like that and so now he

[01:58:00] feels like he owes Quentin and we'll just do whatever Quentin wants plus he knows like he said that

[01:58:05] these guys are dangerous so he's like kind of trapped in this situation but yeah I think you're right

[01:58:10] I think he's hired and I think yeah from the beginning there's a darkness an edge underneath where

[01:58:19] you could be afraid that he might just turn into an asshole like I think maybe you were tuned

[01:58:25] into that with him Randy and I think when it's at a really low level that can be part of the excitement

[01:58:33] for someone like Portia. Yeah for better or worse despite yourself you know. It does seem like at

[01:58:40] the end of it all though he as best as he could did what he could for Portia which yeah maybe

[01:58:47] leans that if you were in a better situation maybe he would be a better all around nice guy but

[01:58:53] yeah he's in a tough spot. We got a few written messages. Curren Heston's trunk from the white

[01:59:02] lotus fan group on Facebook. Hey to anyone else who's listening from there just said did not

[01:59:07] predict the ending enjoy. I wonder if anyone did. Yeah that'd be quite an ending to have predicted.

[01:59:16] Matthew Rimmer says wow what a season finale tense gripping tragic it wrapped up the myriad of

[01:59:23] storylines well providing a sense of closure even if some details were left shrouded in mystery

[01:59:28] and open to interpretation. Thankfully some happy endings amid the tragedy but yes certainly a

[01:59:35] tense piece of tele attention that really lingers after viewing brilliant cinematography too

[01:59:41] as with season one I'll miss the views from this location and what a performance from Jennifer

[01:59:47] Coolidge. Yeah that's disagree to point out. Tammy Bar says to decay and there's a laugh crying

[01:59:58] emoji as a rich woman Tanya should have known that the way to a zodiac is from the back of the yacht

[02:00:04] just get to the back of the boat and go down to get on the zodiac it's so easy.

[02:00:09] I love that she delayed the inevitable shot her way out of the bathroom slash bedroom

[02:00:15] and tried to escape in that her ineptness alone caused her death just take the stairs.

[02:00:20] Oh my god OMG the finale wrapped all storylines up well still seems like Portia is a witness

[02:00:28] of crimes on the yacht anyway good season but still like season one better we're headed to southern

[02:00:33] Italy in a few months hoping to make it to Tarmina and we can share photos on podcastica of

[02:00:38] the resort and beach club maybe we will see Rocco there. Ciao. That would be amazing that's

[02:00:45] cool definitely share those photos yeah be careful too yeah trust anyone yeah if any group of

[02:00:52] gentlemen try to party with you they are going to kill you. I do I do you know now that everyone's

[02:00:59] analyzing the boat scene it is kind of weird that that little boat was just tied to the front of

[02:01:04] the big boat with no way to access it like it should have been tied to the back of the boat with the

[02:01:09] stairs yeah just walked right in so obviously Mike might take some liberties yeah we call that

[02:01:16] there was a second boat at the back and that was just some other boat that they happened to have

[02:01:20] there. She was just panicking enough to think that was the only boat that's all I can think about

[02:01:24] this point. Another podcast we call that department of the suspension of disbelief. Yes

[02:01:29] Oh actually another thing to add to the department of suspension of disbelief is the fact that

[02:01:34] Jack would go to the bathroom and not take his phone with him. He literally said he was going to

[02:01:38] take a shit he was gonna be there for a while. That's good point. But I like that he had her phone

[02:01:45] just with him the whole time where you just threw it out at it. Yeah. All right so we have three more

[02:01:51] calls on this episode first one is from Jenny Ryan who was on with us last week's illicitate.

[02:01:56] Hey Jenny. Jenny Ryan here calling from Saskatoon my last feedback about season two of white

[02:02:04] lotus um referencing the last episode so few things first of all when I was a guest on the show

[02:02:12] for episode six I talked about my theory that people were living their dreams

[02:02:17] and some of those dreams were nightmares and I liked that at this episode at the beginning

[02:02:21] Tonya says that last night was a dream like the party she's like it felt like it was a dream

[02:02:25] and then Bert explains away all the trauma and feelings and sadness and emotional

[02:02:33] stuff that happened to the previous day as a dream. I had a dream of a matter of family and they

[02:02:37] didn't like us so he can stuff it down and move on. I guess we're done with feelings for Bert. Also

[02:02:45] I really thought Portia was hilarious when she goes incognito at the airport in a giant hat and

[02:02:53] sunglasses like that's the most obvious person in the airport now they're gonna you know that's

[02:02:59] not a way to hide Portia by looking ridiculous. The other fun fact I learned about Haley Lou Richardson

[02:03:05] who was the actress who plays Portia she actually has her own crochet line on Etsy which she sells

[02:03:14] things she makes including crocheted hats and backpacks and little weird vests and sweaters which is

[02:03:22] exactly what Portia has been wearing in the show so I actually think Haley Lou Richardson and Portia

[02:03:27] are very similar dressers. The other thing as I think Harper was lying when she told Ethan that

[02:03:37] they kissed and that she came kissed I think she made that story up to a piece Ethan to make him move on

[02:03:43] she's like he's gonna believe me nothing happens so I guess I gotta tell him something happened

[02:03:46] because that really felt like Aubrey Plaza suddenly became a bad actor. She suddenly couldn't act

[02:03:53] very well because she was trying to make Harper lie so she came all across really weird there

[02:03:59] and finally just the tragedy of of Tanya I mean we watched her trying to go to the lifeboat

[02:04:08] we knew it was a bad plan she had those giant heels on she was not leaping into the middle of the boat

[02:04:14] but she was gonna leap at the end where she's much riskier and then her tiny little girl voice saying

[02:04:21] you've got this. It's like watching my two-year-olds attempt something he will never get to do

[02:04:27] properly because he's incapable so Tanya had faith in herself but not enough for the execution oh

[02:04:35] maybe that seems like a fun plan words okay goodbye. Thanks Jenny thanks Jenny yeah that's sort of

[02:04:44] what I was hinting at too is I one theory had with Harper was that nothing happened and she believed

[02:04:50] that the only way you could get out of that conversation is to say something happened so she said

[02:04:57] they made out I do believe something happened but I also think that is a possible interpretation

[02:05:05] I would give it a point oh five percent chance

[02:05:12] I mean you know I don't kiss random people anymore ever since I kissed some random guy at a club

[02:05:19] and got this horrible code that lasted two weeks and um but told you currently have

[02:05:26] no okay. It's different. It's early 30s anyways but yeah so you know

[02:05:32] um they may have married young didn't have all these life lessons to be learned um but yeah

[02:05:43] you're gonna be like I think two weeks from now you're gonna be like I keep having these cameras

[02:05:48] you have to be like but would you truck and then like his face morphed or something. I mean

[02:05:56] do you like he's a good-looking dude and he's got a traditionally charming personality that's

[02:06:05] I think the type that you don't usually go for do you recognize that a lot of women do go for

[02:06:10] that type or do you just not think that's true. Well you think woman go for that I just thought

[02:06:15] Harper would just seem so so cynical right sorry I'm gonna be out 90s about it she's she's a girl

[02:06:24] wearing black right she's Daria she's you know she's not going after the he woke something up in her

[02:06:35] all right so let's move on here's uh let's should we do Enwin and find out what she thought of Jack or

[02:06:41] Wendy let's do Enwin yeah and on Wendy hi Jason Jenny and Randy it's Enwin I finally caught up

[02:06:50] and oh my god this show I loved it so much and first of all thank you all so much for the podcast

[02:06:56] because it has been entertaining and insightful and also really educational because you guys saw a

[02:07:03] few things that I didn't see and it was really helpful to hear all your thoughts. So thank you for

[02:07:08] that lots of endings um I was kept on the edge of my seat this whole episode I was just trying to

[02:07:14] make predictions about how it would go and who the body would be and I just had no idea um

[02:07:20] I first of all thought that it was going to be Ethan killing Daphne oh not killing Daphne killing

[02:07:27] Cameron and Harper and they kind of led us down that path a little bit I think with the two of

[02:07:33] them going off to the island and I didn't know what was gonna happen but eventually everything unfolded

[02:07:39] a few thoughts um when Jack was in the car with Portia and she was figuring out what was going on

[02:07:45] and asked him what was happening and when he sort of lost the plot a little bit I thought oh my god

[02:07:50] he's gonna kill her and then he seemed to be really conflicted and I thought oh he knows it's his

[02:07:54] job to you know he's in on the plot and it's his job to either get out of the hotel or someone

[02:07:59] else will take her out or maybe he's supposed to but you can tell at that moment that he actually did

[02:08:03] did really fall for her and liked her a lot and so that's why he eventually led to go which I

[02:08:07] thought was fantastic um and Portia and the airport finally the edge is about to get away

[02:08:13] and then she sees Alvi and I loved how she got scared she actually asks Alvi for his number

[02:08:18] she was totally done with the dangerous bad boys for now and Tanya of course was so menacing

[02:08:26] when she was on the boat she just had to have sit there having dinner and drinking white wine and

[02:08:30] wait for her doom if it was me I would have swam for it but she doesn't really look like much of a

[02:08:34] swimmer and she was so brave making that dash to um to the bathroom or to the to the suite and then

[02:08:42] finding the gun and then killing them all um and I can't believe she just nearly got away and then

[02:08:47] she fell off because her ass stupid dumb high heels so tragic I was so sad um and I did like the

[02:08:55] little happy ending for Valentina and Mia I thought that was cute um I pictured that Lucille was

[02:09:02] trying to take Alvi for a ride really early on as soon as she met the guy who was supposedly her

[02:09:06] pimped I thought Anna he's a plant she just does this and maybe she does it every week

[02:09:10] so there you go at least Alvi is not stupid and you immediately as soon as she left the room

[02:09:14] that had been played and then finally the two couples um do you think that Daphne and E

[02:09:24] Ethan um they'd love on the island had sex on the island had some island fun um it was hard to tell

[02:09:32] and I like how they just left that ambiguous and Harper and Ethan when they're at the table as soon

[02:09:37] as the other couple sat down on the exchange to look I knew that they were going to finally go

[02:09:42] back to their room and have a lot of sex as soon as I saw that I thought they're back on the same

[02:09:47] page but what I also thought was interesting they left it a little bit ambiguous I'd love to

[02:09:52] know what you guys think do you think that they realize that they don't want to be like Cameron

[02:09:57] and Daphne and later each other all the time and so they've reconnected on that level or do they

[02:10:04] have they finally just become Daphne and Cameron and going along with Daphne's coaching they're

[02:10:12] just doing whatever they can to kind of paper over things and ignore what was happening love to

[02:10:17] hear your thoughts um I thought the first one and my husband thought the second one because

[02:10:21] on the romantic one he's a son of a one so there you go I can't wait to hear what you guys thought

[02:10:26] anyway I've gone really long so thanks again so much cut wait for season three bye

[02:10:34] I mean I don't think being honest with each other is just something you can do and decide to go

[02:10:41] back to because at this point it requires belief requires faith you know uh Ethan has to believe

[02:10:50] that Harper didn't do anything more than Kissing and Harper has to believe that he didn't do anything but

[02:10:55] like uh be kissed by the prostitute um so plus he we think he had sex with Daphne and I don't think

[02:11:04] he said anything about that to Harper so we got that secret right but it's it's not like you can

[02:11:08] just say like okay we've decided to be honest with each other because in the end you can be totally

[02:11:13] honest with your husband you'll never know whether they're being honest to you yeah I think it's

[02:11:17] somewhere in between I think they captured some of that mystery they they are he's not taking her

[02:11:23] for granted anymore because he could have lost her and he saw someone else had desire for her so

[02:11:27] that mimetic thing I think it did shake them up and change things a little bit but I don't think

[02:11:32] they're just gonna play games with each other like Daphne and Cameron now I don't think they might

[02:11:37] use it they might use the Daphne and Cameron technique for this particular incident or this week

[02:11:44] but it doesn't seem like they're gonna every week be having affairs and then covering it up right

[02:11:49] well you know I mean Harper wants a kid and Ethan is going to be like he's like I'm getting a

[02:11:55] trainer baby he suddenly got that family but something she said made me think too why another

[02:12:05] reason why I don't believe that Harper just made it up that she slept with Cameron or did something

[02:12:11] with Cameron no that she kissed Cameron just to appease Ethan is that she would know that Ethan was

[02:12:16] gonna confront Cameron about that you know and that you know Cameron would say no and I don't know if

[02:12:22] Harper's the kind of person that would just be like I'm gonna set them against each other just to

[02:12:26] preserve my own you know whatever piece yeah yeah Ethan was just pretty crazy in that scene he was not

[02:12:35] sympathetic I remember watching it being like you are we're gonna total asshole here how can you

[02:12:40] like act like that after what happened with the condom wrap it's true yeah but then when he went

[02:12:45] out and punched Cameron he didn't say something like you slept with my wife he's like you hit

[02:12:49] on my wife so you tried to fuck my wife are you tried yeah that's accurate right yeah that seemed

[02:12:54] reasonable and one more call from Wendy hi Jenny Jason and Randy hello finale I've been loving your

[02:13:04] coverage really enjoying it can't wait for season three so that climactic crazy scene with Tanya and

[02:13:13] the gaze um definitely more climactic than last seasons was both terrifying and hilarious at

[02:13:22] the same time she kills everybody in this impossible shooting rampage only to trip and fall and drown

[02:13:30] my husband audibly gasped when she tripped and was really upset realizing that she didn't make it

[02:13:38] despite who she was somehow we were we're still rooting for her at the end how was it yeah I think

[02:13:45] Dom makes out better than most everybody else cost him 50,000 euros which doesn't seem to be

[02:13:53] anything for him to spend and it buys him a second chance with his wife I do wonder what

[02:13:59] it is cost him with his relationship with Albi though because I think Albi has really come to some

[02:14:07] realizations of who his father is I kind of think it might bring them closer honestly because Albi

[02:14:16] is less holier than now now a little bit so maybe I might have a little more understanding and

[02:14:22] he's you know he he's like okay I'm not perfect either so I can't judge you quite as harshly now

[02:14:28] but that's my and 50k euros is like way less than a divorce

[02:14:36] in marriage counseling Portia starting to realize that she got what she wanted she got this wild

[02:14:42] crazy sexy guy but that that's not actually what she wants by the way I was gonna just say that I

[02:14:51] loved Portia's quirky thrift store fashion sense I also found that adorable I thought was Jack

[02:14:59] supposed to kill her too I kind of got this feeling that he was and he was wrestling with it

[02:15:05] and ultimately he didn't do it I think both Portia and Albi had an ice bucket's worth of realism

[02:15:14] dumped on them by what happened in Sicily unfortunately I got the feeling that this might make

[02:15:24] Albi more like Dom and Bert and that some of Albi's softness and naivete may be gone

[02:15:34] the love square of Ethan Harper Cam and Daphne so I guess yes Harper and Cam did it and yes

[02:15:47] Daphne and Ethan did it I mean that's kind of where we're left and they all live happily ever

[02:15:53] after so it's okay when Ethan is talking to Daphne on the beach at the beach club you can see

[02:16:01] the sadness in her face I think she's not stupid she sees everything that's happening and that Cam

[02:16:08] is doing but she just tries to bury it and ignore it and pretend it's not there so when Ethan is

[02:16:16] talking to her directly about it you just see this sadness as the things that she suspected were

[02:16:23] happening were actually happening and it does you could see it does impact her and maker sad

[02:16:29] as much as she tries to pretend like it doesn't I can't wait to see these for next year in white

[02:16:35] lotus maldeves because apparently they're all still be a fast and gonna get together again I

[02:16:41] loved Valentina's arc the bass she's really softened by her experience with Mia and our confidence is

[02:16:48] bolstered I think she's very disappointed that kind of the two interests that she had aren't going

[02:16:55] to pan out but I think she's encouraged enough and excited enough about the new possibilities that

[02:17:02] she ends on a good note and I really liked that and you know most of all Bert had a good trip he got

[02:17:08] to see boobies and he got from Mia and a little rousing of his Achilles cock so there's that happy

[02:17:16] ending for Bert thanks Wendy yeah thank you Wendy felt a little sarcasm in there but I understand

[02:17:26] all righty that is our show thank you so much everybody for listening appreciate you guys next

[02:17:41] up will be the white lotus season three episode one Sawati cop maybe which is how you say hello

[02:17:49] and tie I think it sounded good to me if you want to write in or send us a voice message about

[02:17:57] it you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and while you're there be sure to

[02:18:03] check out our other shows one show actually is not there yet but it's coming up at some point soon

[02:18:10] Randy oh yes yeah I'm like wait what's wrong yeah what is it tell me yeah yeah I think in December

[02:18:17] we're hoping to launch a new show called welcome to the apocalypse which is an improv story set

[02:18:29] in the apocalypse with me and Jenny Ryan who you've heard call and my buddy Rob with a group of

[02:18:36] rotating cast members so we'll be playing around in the apocalypse for a little bit is it only

[02:18:43] zombie apocalypse or I guess it could be anything it could be anything whatever the guests spring so

[02:18:48] if they are fighting giant ants that's the apocalypse we have just entered that's awesome yeah I

[02:18:54] hope you let white lotus inspire that as much as yes yeah we might have to visit a resort somewhere

[02:19:00] in there that'll be super fun can't wait all right well keep us in your feeds everybody because we

[02:19:06] intend to come back for season three of the white lotus and I really hope that it comes before 2025

[02:19:13] but keep it if it doesn't I'm excited for it and pretty sure we'll be back podcasting about it

[02:19:19] yeah this has been a blast covering these two seasons with the two of you again while not

[02:19:24] covering it's rewatching yeah and covering with you guys and yeah likewise it's been really fun

[02:19:30] really interesting I was I'm glad also that the listeners seemed open to us talking about touchy

[02:19:37] subjects and yes and even when they didn't agree at least from what we've heard they were um

[02:19:42] you know like to hear it so thank you guys and for now that is it that is our show thanks for listening

[02:19:50] and remember these gays they're trying to murder me