22: "Decoherence" (S3E6)

[00:00:00] S3E6, Westworld Cast, Podcastica

[00:01:03] It's your fucking hallucination, don't mind. You can't change it, can you? There's something you're trying to learn here. Yeah, dig all you want. Whatever mistakes you made, it has nothing to do with us. We haven't done anything wrong. Not yet. You fell in love with a host.

[00:01:17] She was designed to make me a lover and anyone else who picked up that damn can. The park is just a game. You can't judge me for playing it. No man on the way is to play it. Once we bit lighter on the blood than the violence.

[00:01:29] Whatever violent urges I had, I kept confined to the park so he could be an upstanding citizen. Exactly. I've done more for the world than most. So what if he killed a few hosts? They're not real.

[00:01:39] Real enough that the host that you've been tormenting for the past 30 years now wants to destroy the entire fucking world. Hey, don't blame that on me! Shut up! Shut up! Shut the fuck up. Please don't interrupt. It's not all about you, you know.

[00:02:24] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm David. And this is House Podcastica Westworld Edition. This week we're covering Westworld Season 3, Episode 6, Decoherence. And we have a special guest this week, you, some of you. A lot of you might know her. It's Diana.

[00:02:42] Welcome to the podcast, Diana. Hey everybody! So excited to be here. We're here! I am very excited to, uh, I will be in the dumb person seat. Uh, because as I've always said a million times, I rely on you guys to help me understand the episode.

[00:02:56] So being on the episode, I'm a little, I might be a little, no, I'm just kidding. So you just believe whatever we say then? You say that like it's a bad thing. This is the best podcast. I mean, we just kind of, you know,

[00:03:11] make up whatever we think it should be basically. But you do it with such conviction. We try our best. So yeah, I'm excited to be here. Excited to talk about the episode. Yeah. You guys might know Diana from the aim for the head podcast,

[00:03:25] or probably from house podcast to handmade tail edition. So I'm glad to have you back on. And also you might have listened to that 12 hour recap that we did a few weeks ago. It was a marathon, right? Yeah. Handmaid's Tale on Westworld.

[00:03:42] You only go in for the cheerful lighter shows. Yeah. Just to give me a real pick me up during this pandemic. Super fluffy. Oh, just real quick before we get started, how have you thought about this season? It's pretty different, isn't it?

[00:04:00] Yeah, I'm with you guys on the tone, you know, the tone feeling very different. And I think I don't know if it was last week's episode or the one before where I think David, you kind of hit on it that it's really difficult because there really are no,

[00:04:17] no characters to root for this year. Every instance, we're down to just a few of the hosts and some of the most terrible human beings. It's really difficult to have somebody to sort of get, you know, behind. So that's like an adjustment.

[00:04:35] But other than the tonal shift to get sort of used to, I'm still really enjoying the episodes. Kind of how you guys have said that the, even a bad episode, if you will, is still a million times better

[00:04:49] than a lot of things that are being put out on TV. And I think they set the bar so high with the first season that, you know, it's bound to have at least a little bit of a let down, but I'm still really, really enjoying it.

[00:05:03] I'm really entertained by a lot of the things that there are a few things this year that have made me go, eh, but I'm willing to sort of like wait it out and see how the whole rest of the season sort of ends up.

[00:05:15] So yeah, but overall enjoying. Yes. Nice. Yeah, we said there weren't very many people to root for, but clearly we can root for Bernard and Ashley, although they're barely in it. I think they got 15 seconds of screen time. That's true. And whenever they do show up,

[00:05:34] it's like, oh yeah, cool. Now I remember what it's like to like someone. Okay, let's get into this week's episode. We're going to do a top three since there's three of us. And so it'll be our top three highlights for Westworld Season 3 Episode 6D coherence.

[00:05:49] Diana, what did you think of this week's in general? I'd have to say of this season, it's probably one of my favorites. They're a handful of real sort of like tentpole moments in the episode that I thought were just fantastic. But overall, I really, really enjoyed this episode.

[00:06:10] Just a couple of tiny nitpicky things here and there, but nothing that really made me go nuts over. So how about you guys? What did you think? What do you think, David? I agree. This was my favorite episode of the year so far. I really enjoyed it.

[00:06:24] I thought a lot of interesting things happened, a lot of fun things happened. I still think the writing is looser than in past years and it asks you to forgive some implausible things. And I'll point a few of those things out as we go along,

[00:06:40] but it didn't really interfere for me. I thought it was very enjoyable. Yeah, I think it was my favorite too of the season so far. I liked a lot. I thought it had a lot of different things going for it.

[00:06:53] It was fun in some ways that were really dark, but I like that kind of stuff. It had some good drama, some great action, plot progression, deepening of characters, some really interesting situations. I thought it was a damn good episode. Plus, it had some unpredictability to it

[00:07:09] and I thought that it had gotten a little predictable the last couple of weeks. Yeah, we've seen too many scenes of Sirach's men attacking Dolores on the street and her gunning them down. Right. So anyway, nice. All right, Diana, what's your number three?

[00:07:25] Number three, I thought I'd jump right in with... I'm sure it was probably on part of all of our lists, but I'll put it as my number three that I'm calling it in my notes the Council of Williams. And of course, any Council of Williams

[00:07:42] should be presided over by the honorable James Delos, and you was also ushered into the room by Major Craddock. So all of those little bits and pieces there I thought were just fantastic, but what a statement for this show to say that the main stumbling block

[00:08:01] for William to have to work through to sort of, you know, because they say in that moment that, oh, you need something, you need to work on something. You're here because you need to learn something is what they said. And it's him.

[00:08:17] It's literally a room full of hymns. But I thought it was interesting. You're so used to that trope of, he had a rough childhood, and we were teased into that direction when we first got that glimpse of his childhood. You know, oh, he's home.

[00:08:34] He's coming home and you think, you know, he's got an abusive father that's immediately where your head goes. And then when they flip it completely and he is the violent one and that he suppressed that for most of his life

[00:08:46] and sort of, I guess, created this whole narrative of I grew up with a hard life and a hard childhood and really he was a part of it. There's this whole story, this whole time that we've known William as a character

[00:09:01] that he's never really what he appears to be. He's always trying to be something else. You know, when Delos kind of calls him on it when he was younger, when he's the Jimmy Simpson version of young William, there's a couple of times where he says,

[00:09:16] you're trying to live above your station and be above where you are. And so this sort of is from day one, he's been taking this real life moment that affected him and made him, you know, it's part of the meat of who he is

[00:09:32] and he has denied it his whole life and sort of turned it into this other story and sort of went from there. Yeah, and let's say what it was. So some kid at school made fun of his dad for being a drunken so he broke his arm

[00:09:44] and knocked out a few of his teeth. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, sorry. I'm so used to spoilers. I was just like, let's, you know, I'll be coy about it. No, I just want to make sure, you know. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, yeah.

[00:09:57] Everybody knows exactly what you're talking about, yeah. But I do love, I loved that whole sequence. I loved everything that was going on, every little nugget, every little comment that was made, you know, when young William was saying, you know, we're the best version of you

[00:10:12] and when like boy William was like, this is what I turned out to be. I know, I love that. Which is so funny because imagine what your reaction would be when you were about like what, what was he like 10 or 12? Like what would your reaction be to like,

[00:10:26] you know, 40 year old you or even older. So I thought there was a nice little. And he goes a few of your, some of you are okay but not you. Not you. No offense. Yeah. It's not taken. That's great. It was so well done.

[00:10:42] Would you guys want to do this air therapy if you knew that you would meet versions of yourself from different points of your life? I don't know. It seems pretty, that's pretty intense, you know, there's a lot in there. I don't know what do you think David?

[00:10:58] What would it be David? I think it's kind of enticing. I think it would be tempting. Yeah. Yeah. I do too. And I think it's really interesting because William has been such a compartmentalized character. You know, he has sort of channeled all of his

[00:11:13] kind of id into the man in black and where he's just, you know, all reactivity and does whatever the fuck he feels like so that he can, I see his businessman persona as the super ego and where it's just like the morality version of him.

[00:11:28] And even though they were living at the same time, they're like two different characters the way he plays them. So it was really, really interesting to see that them all together. In fact, I had kind of suspected at some point,

[00:11:39] we might see the Jimmy Simpson version of William in the same place as the Ed Harris version, but because one of them was going to be like a host or a hybrid host or something, but not like their augmented reality subconscious versions.

[00:11:53] But I loved seeing them all together. Yeah. And remembering even the public version of William, like the guy who's running the charity and did all the stuff for mankind and doing the medical research. We know enough from earlier seasons of the show

[00:12:09] to know that was a frog too. Right. I mean, there was nothing genuine about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I love really the whole theme of the whole scene to me just came in the, when Delos asked him,

[00:12:25] did your life just happen to you or did you choose it? And his response was, if you can't tell, does it matter? So I think it really brings up this whole conversation which I want to get into later with some of the other

[00:12:40] characters, which is are we predetermined to be who we are no matter what? So if these situations happen to us, if I'm the violent child and react to a situation as a child, will it then there's nothing I can do about my life? I'll always be this person.

[00:12:59] Even if I host a charity event and do whatever, I'll always be that little boy in the room. Or do we have some power to change that? So I just thought that the scene itself was just so delicious to watch, to have them all in the room together,

[00:13:17] but then to actually be able to have these really great thoughts in your head that I have no idea. Fate versus free will and nature versus nurture and all of that. It scrambles the brain up a little bit,

[00:13:30] but I think they did a great way of presenting it to you. They were going for exactly what you're saying, where they wanted to make it seem like he had this horrible childhood and that's one reason why he ended up the way he did,

[00:13:44] but then they flipped it around where actually he was already kind of violent. And I don't totally buy that. I think it's almost like they're saying the parents had no culpability and they said that the father was driven to drink by William being such a horrible kid.

[00:14:02] But I think it's all tied up together and I would still say that parenting in most cases like that, he's already 10 or 12 years old at this point. What really matters is when you're like two and three. But I think the idea was what you're saying that,

[00:14:19] oh no, and actually he was just kind of born this way and we're supposed to question whether there was any way that it could have turned out any differently. And when he says, if you can't tell, does it matter?

[00:14:32] That's of course a callback to what Angela said to young William when he first arrived at Westworld and she was like being all seductive with him and he asked her if she was real. And so that's if you can't tell,

[00:14:45] does it matter is an interesting question about simulated experiences like that, but also about free will, which I think any intelligent person has pondered that like how much of what I'm doing is because I am choosing it and how much is kind of preordained because of my biological

[00:15:03] drives or just cosmic determinism or whatever. So yeah, I mean maybe, I mean that is kind of the way that I reconcile that like maybe it's not, maybe I don't really have a lot of free will, but if you decide that you don't have any free will,

[00:15:22] so everything you do is predetermined and you act that way, that could be a recipe for just becoming a horrible person because you're like well, if I kill somebody, there was no other thing that could have happened. You know what I mean?

[00:15:36] So I think the best way to live is to act as if you have free will even though we might not. It's interesting too because the whole season is really bringing up that question anyway because the whole, you know, the data dump from Rahoboam is saying

[00:15:50] the same thing. This is what the machine has said you will do. Will you do those things still or can you break out of that mold? Are we determined by the set of events? And Jake, Charlotte's husband didn't even want to look at it

[00:16:08] because he doesn't want a machine to control what he does and that sort of brings up, well sometimes some of this stuff might be self-fulfilling that if you even look at what this machine has prescribed for you it might steer you down that path.

[00:16:21] Yeah, it might make you jump off that desk. Yeah, if we look at what's going on with William in this scene I think there is also something more to it. So his entire journey two and a half seasons has been am I me? Am I real?

[00:16:36] Do I have a choice? And I think when he finally gets to the point of saying if you can't tell does it matter? He's finally leaving that question behind and realizing it's not going to be answered for him and it can't be answered.

[00:16:52] And that's cemented in my mind by his killing all of his other selves. True, true. And when he says I finally understand my purpose to be the good guy he really has made a change. So you could consider that to be free will or just his

[00:17:11] destiny what you choose but that's a fundamental change in him. He's left that question that has paralyzed him behind. And he all the other question is also related is what is this meaning and his purpose? And I think that's reflected in him reading fiction when he's

[00:17:29] a little kid he's just looking for some kind of meaning because that whole speech that he delivers about in the earlier group therapy session about his views on life that were all just kind of maggots feeding on the corpse

[00:17:45] of the planet or whatever is a dark view of things. But to me I kind of agree with it not presented in such stark terms but I think that basically we're just these organisms that are engineered to survive. And so everything we do is related to surviving and

[00:18:11] propagating our species. But if we want to have any more meaning than that then we need to bring that to our lives ourselves, right? And so I think that's kind of what he's doing in that moment maybe. Well and he's also remember he's a cruel person and

[00:18:28] he enjoys being cruel. So he's also I think kind of toying with the other people in this group therapy. Like he knows he can make them really upset by saying stuff like that. Yeah and when the woman cries, which that was hilarious, he's just chuckling. Yeah.

[00:18:45] Yeah that therapy scene is very classic William. But it's all it's really I mean even in the park you know that was he went through several phases and one of them was just looking for meaning you know like desperately looking for it.

[00:18:57] And that's another reason why I like this episode because it kind of ties all of that together. His search for meaning because he has such a stark nihilistic view of reality and yeah wondering who he is and whether he has free will and it all that kind

[00:19:15] of culminates in that moment. And I thought it was really funny. He's like when James Dell was kind of acting as group counselor asked him you know I forget exactly what I said but did you have any free will or

[00:19:27] was this the inevitable end and he's like I know what I have to do and then the scene cuts and we go to somebody else and then when it comes back to him he has killed several of his selves in his beating Jimmy Simpson with a chair.

[00:19:40] And you're like oh I guess that's what you had to do but it was basically yeah just kill all his don't worry about where he came from just kind of move forward that's what I took that as. Yeah and we do know that he's pretty violent early

[00:19:52] on in the show right from the beginning. I think he did get more twisted and more disillusioned because of Dolores falling and falling for her falling in love with her and finding out that she's not real but he was already quite violent in his time

[00:20:08] with her and then he pretty near kills Logan at the end of that whole episode for real so he was already quite violent by that time. Yeah you know one thing about whether or not this moment of him deciding to be the good guy

[00:20:25] is a huge shift I think it could be an improbable is but it also does remind me of young William you know Jimmy Simpson, William who picked the white hat when given the choice between the black and the white hat and thought of himself as a good guy

[00:20:40] and now here's our William in his white metal patient suit so it felt kind of similar to that so we'll see. Well I think he is saying it cynically with such irony I mean like in a sense it's true like he's the good guy now that

[00:21:00] you know his purpose is to save humanity but he knows he's not a good person so I think it's both true but ironic at the same time. And we don't I mean we don't really even know what he means by that right we

[00:21:15] don't know what his purpose is because that was the end of that sequence. Yeah yeah that's what I took it to mean. Yeah it could be I mean I don't even understand why Bernard and Stubbs showed up there for him I don't think

[00:21:30] we're supposed to know that unless I miss something but I don't know why they care about him. Nope that was totally unclear I agree. Yeah I'm curious. Makes me want to watch the next episode. Yeah right now what's your number three David?

[00:21:43] So I'll just keep expanding on some other details about the man in white. So part of what he said in the group therapy he said your purpose is speeding the entropic death of this planet your maggots eating a corpse and then he says to his therapist

[00:22:03] I know what I did I don't belong here I belong in a pine box and then he bites a guy's finger off it just cracked me up it's like this guy's a real ray of sunshine. You know there are a lot of moments in this episode

[00:22:18] that seemed really dark like when a caller Shalorus says to the other board meeting guy oh we can squeak by with just your vote will be fine and then he immediately gets shot in the head you know or at the end I mean

[00:22:34] this wasn't so funny but when Charlotte is saying trust me I can keep you safe and then boom normal family blows up yeah this was one of those darkly funny so I think another thing that was fun about the William Arc here is as in the old days

[00:22:54] of Westworld they play with reality and simulation here so he's actually in the AR therapy before we realize he is the orderly who shows up to fetch him back to the room is major cratic but no he had already been

[00:23:11] he had already they'd already strapped the glasses on him and then he saw the young version of himself but then he thought he took them off but he didn't right exactly right yeah so there's a whole fake out there yeah and then it becomes obvious as you say

[00:23:27] with the other the other Williams I mean when we saw Craddick my first thought was oh is that the remaining Dolores that we haven't pegged yet right and then you realize I guess the point is this is it's from his very advanced yeah yeah very because he had

[00:23:48] Craddick had held him captive and so now he's kind of crad it captive again maybe that had something to do with it oh there you go yeah that's right so another thing I enjoyed as we saw the insight implant screw itself into the roof of his mouth

[00:24:05] which was looked like it hurt I wondered why he didn't already have one and maybe it's something to do with classes like he's upper class and so he goes and pays $40,000 a day for Westworld while people can't afford that get this implant

[00:24:20] but then again the rich guy in the first episode had one so I don't know why William didn't already have one or he's just such a contrary guy maybe he didn't want but it brought me back to the insight website where the ad for the limbic tab says

[00:24:35] feel the way you want when you want find the new you which is again irony it's not what he wants but he's definitely finding the new him during the AR therapy and just just too like you're talking about darkly funny he gets that thing screwed into his mouth

[00:24:52] and then he's being forced down this hallway in a straight jacket to this meeting he doesn't want to go to looks over the side and sees a therapist hang herself and nobody will listen to him and the best part about that scene too is as he's walking too

[00:25:07] he's watching his head is totally turning like watching a car crash and the other guys are just like nothing to see here nothing to see here keep moving I wonder how many people are horrified that I'm laughing at this I'm laughing at this sorry

[00:25:22] and then the last one was a reveal of a former mystery which is we I think we learned the purpose of the blood drop that Shalora stole from William while he was being committed it was to track his whereabouts right and it's interesting because

[00:25:42] she was able to get some men from this facility to come and get him and she told him it was a private hospital but now we know she must have known about Surak's experimental center right I think that's what this is

[00:25:54] but but but she didn't know enough to know where it was and I feel like at the very least when they got they hacked into a Rojo one they should have been able to find that out but apparently not so yeah she wants to track it down

[00:26:06] and we've thought that Dolores might want to expose this place so I feel like this is all part of that I wondered if they had told Bernard and Stubbs and that's how they found him there but that doesn't make sense because they're not working together so

[00:26:21] I don't know yeah that part's unclear and the whole so he's apparently at an inner journey's facility in Sonora, Mexico and this was again some of the convenient writing we've been seeing this year where it appears

[00:26:36] on the screen that the data is being stolen but nobody saw it but fair enough that's the way it goes but there was just a ton packed into that whole plot line it was really great it was fun

[00:26:51] okay my number three was about that too let me see Williams therapist the woman who ended up hanging herself said you're the only one who holds the key to your experiences and you're the only one who can unlock the meaning

[00:27:05] now she had sort of this tragic existence but I feel like there's wisdom in that and maybe he took it to heart yeah one of the interesting things there was you got the feeling she was really interested maybe in helping him or it felt at least

[00:27:23] like real therapy but then knowing what the purpose is of these facilities that's really not the purpose and then you know you find out everything that screwed up about her so I guess that whole thing was just cynical too it said something about she's prone to having

[00:27:44] affairs with her patients and being addicted to opiates or something yeah it said I took a screenshot of it said loss of medical license one to two years divorce loss of custody 2.5 years risk factors multiple affairs with patients opioid addiction borderline personality disorder

[00:28:05] and then she gets a text that said I'm taking the kids don't try to contact us right nothing good happens in our rojo bowman profile yeah just another miserable person but I think Jake might be the one I mean we didn't really

[00:28:20] see any details about him but it said classification G and for man in black he's category you which I think means unfit so maybe G means good because Jake seems like a good guy could be I don't know so anyway let's see yeah when that moment

[00:28:41] where he's talking about his daughter and I don't think they knew that he killed his daughter because when the therapist is asking him if he wants to talk about it he she says you both were in the same massacre you escaped she didn't I don't even think

[00:28:59] she was getting at that but then he starts talking about it he says I see now it was her my Emily and I killed her and I thought that was a really moving moment he looks like he's about to cry and then

[00:29:11] you hear her start to cry too thinking that she's empathizing but she's not even listening but anyway I thought it I am glad that they're making a big deal out of that because it is you know when it happened it was so

[00:29:26] off-handed and quick and I was worried that the show might just not address it but they are and it's obviously a really big deal to him now I think it's one of the main things he thinks about which makes sense and it also feels like

[00:29:41] real life where sometimes something can happen in the blink of an eye you make a quick decision and do something off-handedly and it turns out to be something that you think about for years you know so I'm glad that they're dwelling on that a little bit

[00:29:57] and then yeah she ends up killing herself and it Williams file says patient shows signs of depression anger sleep abnormalities paranoid delusions and hallucinations PTSD PTSD is interesting because they say that this whole air therapy is what they give to war veterans who are having PTSD

[00:30:18] and that brings to mind Caleb who we saw in a flashback had some similar looking goggles on so I think that he went through the same thing but yeah I mean I just love when you have a show or a movie that has psychological concepts

[00:30:37] brought into the physical world like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one of my favorite movies and so the whole Council of Williams was awesome and rather than go over the whole thing anymore I just want to repeat some of the fun lines

[00:30:52] like when young William says whatever mistakes you made has nothing to do with us we haven't done anything wrong not yet and then Man in Black says you fell in love with a host I like that

[00:31:07] then Man in Black says so what if he killed a few hosts they're not real and James Della says oh real enough that the host that you've been tormenting for the past 30 years now wants to destroy the entire fucking world

[00:31:19] and then at the end when they're all like fighting with each other making a commotion and William says shut the fuck up and then Della says William please don't interrupt it's not all about you that really is all about him it's like several him

[00:31:37] well there's one more thing that I think is kind of interesting so the facility as you mentioned is called Inner Journeys and that brings to mind Arnold saying consciousness isn't a journey upward but a journey inward not a pyramid but a maze every choice could bring you closer

[00:31:55] to the center or send you spiraling to the edges to madness and one thing that's been recurring in the series is this idea of lunacy or madness and how it kind of closely relates to awakening into a higher level of consciousness like sometimes when you don't think

[00:32:16] like everyone else it can mean either you're thinking for yourself and making choices or it could mean that or at least be seen by everyone else that you're crazy and so I think it's interesting that those two are linked here and this is

[00:32:31] William has finally yeah you're right I think you're right he's finally done the thing that he's been trying to do this whole time is find the center of his own maze and it seems like he's found it and he may be at a new level of higher consciousness

[00:32:46] or he may be crazy or maybe both but I'm so I'm really glad that I was wrong about maybe that last William episode being Ed Harris' last episode that he's you know that he's back in the game and part of the plot and everything Oh me too

[00:33:07] it was awesome yeah to have him in this he was really good yeah he's amazing and he you'll hear it when I get to the news but apparently he wasn't really happy but I think that made his performance even better

[00:33:22] yeah generally speaking I don't think Ed Harris in real life is a happy actor if you've ever read up on some of his stuff he's just seems like he's sour and a lot of stuff and torture and things like that

[00:33:37] I don't know what's going on in his personal life but I just get the sense that he holds a lot of and he uses a lot of it obviously in a lot of his characters interesting okay what's your number two so my number two is

[00:33:52] it's a I've got a couple of questions and thoughts and sort of want to throw things at the wall in this area but there was a lot about the pearls in this episode two that I thought was very interesting of course the moment where Hector's pearl is

[00:34:13] sinigrated is just such a shocking moment we've never seen that happen before it's the first time we've seen one destroyed yeah I didn't realize they were smushy yeah I didn't think that was new knowledge I thought they were a hard surface yeah like

[00:34:28] brain matter and if you watch closely it's like they mush but then there was like a little puff of smoke so they looked kind of like a graphite like they almost look like a bullet you know like the interior of a bullet but anyway

[00:34:43] so the thing I was thinking about was in terms of the pearls so Hector's pearl was smushed but you have to think isn't his consciousness but don't they have it in data don't they have it in data form can they rebuild that pearl or is that not

[00:35:04] an option you know what I mean like I know we placed a lot of significance on the pearls that were taken out of the park but Serox been very resourceful in ways to I mean they have a whole host making facility so I

[00:35:28] I'm curious if there isn't a way to read I don't think there is no so Hector's gone gone I think the point of that yeah was supposed to be that that was the end of him it's a little confusing sometimes there was a lot of talk of

[00:35:44] host data in this episode right so I could be wrong I mean Serox is destroying all of that now and it seems like he's being pretty successful at it but also last season the whole thing with the cradle which is where the host backups are

[00:36:02] and it was destroyed by Angela and I got the sense that the point of that was that there that was the only place where the hosts were backed up and so maybe when they're talking about destroying host data so it just means the pearls that are in the

[00:36:17] physical hosts you know and so I think also just because of the drama of that moment with Maeve that it was supposed to mean that that was it for him right well I think they were talking about both the pearls

[00:36:32] that were remaining in the existing hosts and we see them destroying the stored hosts in Westworld yeah that too but also the host making technology I think they were going to destroy right and that's what Dolores is concerned with yeah and that's where the other board member

[00:36:50] said you can't destroy a trillion dollars worth of IP and I don't think that would be just the host pearls it's the whole technology exactly yeah so I just I thought that the centering on the pearls was really interesting there was some really great tension

[00:37:08] in those moments when Chaloris or Haloris however you want to call her was you know walking around and you're like which one is she going to pull off and you know so we saw these different stages of the pearl we see the destruction of one

[00:37:23] which we hadn't seen before we've seen the insertion of the pearl but from a very surgical standpoint and not sure we've seen it from the building the host standpoint where you see the robot hand put it in and then seal it off and whatever so we saw

[00:37:41] the death of one pearl and then the beginning of the life of another pearl but I just thought it was interesting too that in the midst of that whole scene as Haloris is exiting and she just pulls off the one that they pulled out of Connell

[00:37:59] I'll decrepit and burned and everything the significance of the pearls and how much they how much import they have right now especially since Sorak as you were saying he's gutting their whole everything that they have all of those hosts that are just sitting there

[00:38:20] I'm sorry standing there in the warehouse and flamed through to the extras yeah just stand there and stay as still as you can while we shoot this flamethrower you guys and I love how you say that too on the podcast

[00:38:35] where you're like every now and then they call out yeah we're gonna need about a hundred extras and you're just gonna be nude for a few shots how's that and then we're gonna turn on a flamethrower everybody's okay right you probably get an extra 50 bucks like

[00:38:50] Karen did for falling down and walking done probably it's hazard pay really so yeah that's my number two was just the significance of the pearls in this episode and it was interesting how we saw these different stages of the pearl and then the death of a pearl

[00:39:08] which we hadn't seen before so yeah my number two agreed my number two is Sorak's takeover of Delos which is I think was a little more exciting than most corporate takeovers are usually the CEO doesn't come in and say okay now I want to just destroy everything

[00:39:26] right yeah and assassinate one of the board members so it was interesting to think about the strategy behind it so I think one clear goal of Sorak's is to do what we just talked about which is clear all the remaining hosts off the board so except for

[00:39:47] the you know little army of Delores and the help he is getting from he destroys all those still in the park we know Angela or he broke up the cradle there's no backups and to destroy the technology and data necessary to make more another goal is to

[00:40:08] identify and capture Delores or the version of Delores that is shall and upon landing when he meets up with her he says I'm looking forward to seeing my new acquisition and I thought he meant the company but I think in retrospect he meant

[00:40:26] her I think you're right I didn't even think of that that's wonderful I don't think I didn't think he knew until she checked on her son he may not have known it was her but he knew there was a Delores there got it yeah yeah

[00:40:44] and he's about to destroy the company the last remaining acquisition would be the Delores yeah and then shall or us says I bled Delos dry I sent the data out Sorak says did you indicating that maybe that whole transmission didn't really go through I was wondering

[00:41:07] about that too myself yeah yeah I mean he that was the interesting part is you know she calls Delores prime and says I failed I'm sorry and she's like well we can still salvage the host making data and I'm like

[00:41:22] well shouldn't you have done that like on day one you know and then but later she says as you just mentioned for weeks I've been siphoning the data and money and everything else out of this company and she just had a few

[00:41:37] more left to do so it sounded like it was a long time she was just finishing up but yeah he seemed to question whether she was successful even over the even over the previous weeks I don't know I got the feeling that

[00:41:52] I guess I don't know do you are you saying she wasn't successful at getting any of the data out I'm saying it's in question just because Sorak seemed he didn't seem surprised by that and he seemed pretty confident about it true and so it seemed

[00:42:07] like he'd taken some sort of countermeasure there and then it was interesting that he cites as one of the items that caught her is the fact that the real Charlotte wouldn't care about her kid in the midst of a crisis so he says ironically

[00:42:22] you know it's the fact that you actually care more about your family than the real Charlotte but so that made me think what are we supposed to make of that tearful message from the world that we saw right exactly bad writing yeah I thought yeah

[00:42:40] that didn't really track yeah and I didn't track that message didn't track if we hadn't seen that then yes but we did see that yeah so so I thought that I agree with you it didn't really make sense and and I think and this has been a weakness

[00:42:58] I think of this whole season so Sorak seems to sort of be a step ahead in this whole episode but they actually have to make him out to be sort of repeatedly incompetent against Dolores so like he reveals all his knowledge to her like he's a

[00:43:13] supervillain but then he allows her to poison the board escape kill Hector there's no security like down in the room where all that stuff is and she escapes the facility and I think they've kind of written themselves into a place where all has to move the plot forward

[00:43:31] but it kind of makes me disappointed in Sorak because I want him to be like a Robert Ford with this masterful orchestration of events but he just keeps screwing up I mean he's spending all his time just making sure the hologram is

[00:43:46] set up right so when it shows up right so so I didn't like that part but I thought the rest of it was actually pretty cool takeover yeah yeah I mean I thought also and maybe I'm just nitpicking but I feel like they should at least

[00:44:04] mention something about how he might be interested in this scanning technology of Delos where they can put a hat on somebody and get all I mean he wants the guest data that as a result of that technology so

[00:44:16] you'd think when he's talking about the assets of the company he might be interested in that too which has nothing to do with the host that might rise up against him you know that's a great point and that was something else he wanted you right

[00:44:28] yeah but he didn't say anything about that alright is it my turn it is yes not ready okay I'll talk about Maeve a little bit just a few kind of random things about Maeve you know the whole segment where Maeve fought all of the soldiers

[00:44:48] was that just for fun I think it was she said now let's have a little fun shall we I thought of that in my second watch I was like why is this here again because it didn't I didn't know I couldn't figure out why maybe

[00:45:03] because she was in control in that scene so did she just want to let out some you know just she knew that it took a couple hours to print up a body so and plus time moves faster in the simulation so she was just

[00:45:18] figuring out a way to spend the time I guess it didn't really make any sense I thought at one point like maybe she need to practice fighting because she got her ass kicked by Musashi she said now I'm ready after that yeah what I did like is

[00:45:36] the whole idea of having a simulated Dolores or Dolores you know consciousness inside the simulation to go and question about this that was a cool idea and from what I could understand they got that from the Martin Connells pearl yeah

[00:45:53] they did yeah it was interesting too it was good because I well sort of good I had been wondering why doesn't Maeve just team up with Dolores she doesn't like human beings anyway and we get from this scene that she doesn't trust

[00:46:08] that Dolores will keep her daughter safe and Dolores has the key to the Valley Beyond that's what they've been saying but Dolores doesn't want to give Maeve that key because she's aligned herself with Sarac who's trying to destroy all the hosts

[00:46:23] well Maeve at that point should have just said you know you're right fuck that guy let's team up you know and she earlier had told Sarac when Sarac was trying to convince her to keep helping him

[00:46:38] I don't need incentive I just need help let's do it I'm ready and she did seem to be pretty impressed that she was in the simulation of the Valley Beyond she was sad that it was real so I think if we can take that at face value

[00:46:50] she does want to be in the Valley Beyond and she feels like helping Sarac and destroying Dolores is the only way that she can do that that's when I'm getting out of it but later when Hector asks her are you actually going to fight Dolores

[00:47:09] and she says just because I have the capacity to kill her doesn't mean I ought to so she's struggling with it but then when she talks to simulated Dolores that's when she realizes there's no other option

[00:47:21] yeah and I think the Valley Beyond is still a little bit of a question mark so you have Sarac essentially saying I'm going to try to destroy all the technology that creates hosts and this question is whether Dolores was able to get hold of that technology

[00:47:39] before he destroyed it but originally the Valley Beyond was talked about as this thing that is totally inaccessible forever now they're talking about it like Dolores has access to it so couldn't she theoretically with that technology repopulate the world with the host

[00:47:57] data that is in the Valley Beyond maybe she wants to do that I think that's a possibility I was also thinking too because I know you guys have brought up in other episodes it makes sense for Dolores and Maeve to be outside of the park

[00:48:15] but it didn't make any sense why Dolores would take Bernard out of the park take his pearl out but I think to me I feel like Bernard could be instrumental in rebuilding his head he's got all of those memories so if Sarac lays

[00:48:36] waste to everything does he perhaps have all of those blueprints to make another host making machine, make another pearl making machine all of those things so could it is that why he is that X factor that missing link like if we fail

[00:48:54] I have Bernard as my backup we're at cross purposes he has all of this information I'm not sure about Bernard's Arnoldness all comes from Dolores's memories of Arnold so I don't think he has anything more of Arnold than what Dolores knows of Arnold

[00:49:12] so that means Dolores knows everything that Bernard maybe knows but I think it's possible that Bernard could be helpful in the rebuilding of the world with a host world and so another thing with Maeve is she wants help and so she's having she had Sarac get some pearls

[00:49:36] of her friends to print up some more hosts to help her out and on the machine you can see that four are being printed up one is Maeve herself I looked online hope people don't mind me mentioning this but

[00:49:51] it's a podcast so you can get some extra information but one of the hosts has the same ID number as Clementine yeah I assume and I assumed the other one was going to be Armistice or the Japanese version of Armistice okay yeah we don't know

[00:50:09] and then the other the would make sense because Hector, Clementine and Armistice right that was kind of the gang yeah so we've got Maeve and Charloris interrupted Hector and squooshed his brain but it could be that we have Clementine and maybe Armistice left

[00:50:30] to be printed out which would be great I'd love to see that happen yeah yeah absolutely now one thing that was a little confusing to me is why these needed to be printed up at Delos I was like wait a minute didn't

[00:50:44] Sarac print up the other ones that like his own facility somewhere else Maeve while she's talking to Lee kind of gets a realization oh we've been moved we're home so that sort of went along with that to me that yeah they were

[00:50:56] at some other facility but now she realizes they're back at Delos so maybe Sarac still has this technology elsewhere that's what I thought like when yeah they've got printed up the first time I don't think it was at Delos right no it was not I don't think

[00:51:12] that's a good observation I think you're right about that yeah so I don't understand why they needed to do it at Delos this time but anyways the last thing about this is I just liked it when Maeve restored Hector's memories with like that

[00:51:24] Spockmine mail or whatever that was a nice moment yeah it was just one more point on the who is the fourth pearl I think it could be the Japanese version of Armistice who was super cool and her name was Hanario because remember there's the Musashi Yakuza connection

[00:51:46] so that might be some help in infiltrating that group or dealing with it somehow yeah that'd be cool just a theory okay Diana number one I wanted to talk a little bit about Haloris's journey and how sort of mimicked the journey of Williams she spent this whole episode

[00:52:10] dealing with programming versus real life you know her moments with I guess we should call her Dolores Prime when they were talking and she's saying you know wait haven't seen you in a while and you know when we're apart I feel like I'm getting

[00:52:28] you know that the closeness isn't there and then she says the thing about you know why did we keep the emotions intact and she's just having so much such a hard time with the emotional part of being Hal and it just

[00:52:46] the struggle really really came to a head in this episode in a really tragic way obviously but I think just I loved how at the same time that William was questioning whether or not he had any sort of control over his life based on

[00:53:07] you know his upbringing it was really interesting to have the Charlotte Hale Dolores dealing with those issues as well at almost exactly the same time where she's like I am Dolores and I shouldn't feel these things or be this way just the moment

[00:53:25] when Dolores had to remind her that they're not her family you know just I thought that there was a really interesting parallel for that to happen throughout the whole episode and I really cannot praise Tessa Thompson enough for the incredible work she's done this whole season to be

[00:53:47] Dolores inside the body of Charlotte Hale but not really be Dolores she's got to be like struggling Dolores like how do you play that and I think she's done such a wonderful job with the little movements here and there the little tics

[00:54:02] you know she's just not comfortable in her body she's not comfortable being this person but then there's these emotions that are attached to it that she's having hard time processing and then finding out that Charlotte would never really have those emotions like what are you supposed to do

[00:54:20] like how do you play that how do you do that and she just has struggled like almost the whole time and I just I think it's been such a wonderful journey to watch and even though she's sort of becomes toast at the end she's also not disintegrated

[00:54:38] she's not gone gone so I'm really curious to see what happens next with her is she does she get repaired and now she's you know Terminator Dolores or you know it's I'm curious to see how the next step is going to be based on this

[00:54:56] really interesting robot emotional journey we've been on this whole season with her to see it sort of come to that head and I'm really really interested to see how they play it out for her so that's my number one her whole thing you know

[00:55:14] about developing an attachment to Charlotte's son Nathan and Charlotte's husband your ex husband Jake and you saw that those bonds deepening throughout this episode to the point where she was saying we got to go somewhere where no one can find us which to me means

[00:55:32] I'm off this plan you know I'm on my own plan now I'm not helping Dolores anymore if that's what that's really what or maybe at least yeah a diversion from it and then to have that just literally blown up then that in one way

[00:55:50] gets her back on being more aligned with Dolores prime because their enemy is Sirach and Sirach is the one who killed her husband and son so now she's going to want to kill him but it's still I've just had the feeling throughout

[00:56:05] this season that one of the points of Charlotte's is that even though they started from the same template they diverged and so maybe she won't be totally on Dolores prime's side for one reason or another yeah definitely I

[00:56:23] think that that's going to be an interesting thing to see because you know she even had she was confronted with those moments when they even asked you know you're going to be left behind much like Connells was you know you're going to and

[00:56:38] she didn't want to believe it and she didn't care for some reason he's like not struggling at all no not at all but you have to wonder that's the question is that because did they program a little bit of Connells into that Dolores or is that the Dolores

[00:56:59] embracing the world of the Connells right you know what I mean yeah which can just like an enforcer yeah because it all goes back to that whole absence of field concept where something takes on the characteristics of whatever's missing and so when you're in Connells

[00:57:17] environments you might just take on the characteristics of Connells and same for Charlotte yeah so Dolores prime says to Charlotte about changing her emotions well if we had a change to survive it wouldn't be worth it and that does not sound like

[00:57:35] really or Dolores she didn't have any problem changing Teddy or others I think that's why but maybe Teddy's outcome turning out terrible and painful for her changed your mind about that yeah I think I think so awesome David number one my number one back

[00:57:58] on Maeve and where we're left with her at the end of this episode so she's now fully motivated to oppose Dolores not only because Sarac has control over her and her outcome but because she'll or us has killed Hector her main squeeze for good so I think

[00:58:22] we've established that they they never liked each other I think you'd really establish that they hate each other now you know what we were talking about she's still root for and I think we agree that Maeve is a team

[00:58:37] we can be on like you can root for Maeve she's sympathetic she is but I'm a little disappointed that she hasn't stood up to Sarac more but yeah well for now because yeah in a weak position but I'm actually going to agree with you I think there's

[00:58:55] several obstacles to rooting for a team Maeve first of all she's failed at every turn so far everything she has tried to do in this season has been a failure and second she seems still under Sarac's control so what outcome are we rooting for

[00:59:13] with her I mean what possible good outcome is there you know he's promising charity hey I'll let you go to Robot Heaven but he has no compunction for the host at all so I think we can trust that right Dolores has continued

[00:59:28] to have the upper hand in every conflict and then I think the last point is Maeve Maeve just turned out to be hostile toward humanity too she did have a warm relationship with Simon and she had when he was human in the end

[00:59:46] she was able to come with Simon who took the bullets for them Lee Lee sorry Lee Lee Sizemore sorry and then she had a relationship with Ford to some degree where he says you're always my favorite

[01:00:07] and then they sort of got to a meeting in the minds of a Sylvester and feel like so she seems more able to establish a relationship with humans than Dolores does but I think it's still questionable she's seen evidence that there are worthwhile humans but yeah yes

[01:00:25] yeah so I'm hoping we can root for team Maeve but team Maeve at least so far has not been winning and then just one logistical note Maeve and the Nazis they must have shot all those variations of that scene in one day right I hope so I know

[01:00:43] just alright back out here I found myself wondering that because there's like six different versions of it right I don't know I you know Daniel Russo pretty much got his axe kicked all the way through karate kid until the end so that's a good point

[01:01:01] are you saying you're setting us up for a moment where Maeve's going to totally do the crane kick at the end and that would be pretty cool first she'll do it to Syroc and then Dolores

[01:01:13] well she's going to try to do it to Syroc but he's going to be just a you know hologram so her foot is going to go right through and it won't hit him but maybe Dolores will be right behind him and he'll hit her

[01:01:28] yeah now speaking of that when the first scene with Maeve she's in the like a simulated version of the what's already a simulation the valley beyond and Syroc shows up and I'm like how's he there I wondered that too and I wondered if they just created a simulated

[01:01:49] version of him to have a conversation with her yeah maybe he can like just speak into his mic and have that thing say whatever he's saying or something yeah okay my number one is decoherence I tried to look up the definition of decoherence

[01:02:09] and understand it and it's really fucking complicated but basically quantum decoherence is a term in quantum physics and you know you've always heard that quantum physics is a study of small particles and how they can be in two states at once until they're

[01:02:30] observed and then that then they kind of are stuck in whatever state they were observed in for whatever reason that sounds so crazy to me but that's what they say and so I read as long as there exists a definite phase relation between different states of a particle

[01:02:47] the system is said to be coherent but then one way to break that up to cause decoherence is to observe that particle which then I think locks it into a single state so as a result of the process of decoherence quantum behavior is apparently lost

[01:03:05] just as energy appears to be lost by friction in classical mechanics so I don't totally get that but it feels like it's about the you know two states of a particle and so I thought in this episode that relates to A. the sort of

[01:03:23] fractured compartmentalized nature of William Psyche but also probably more to the relationship between Dolores and her counterparts most prominently with Charles Charles and how over time they're differentiating their decohering maybe maybe I don't know and so we've already talked about how Charlotte

[01:03:43] has gone off on a different path than Dolores so I don't need to go back into that but that's just kind of how I thought it related to the title did you guys think about that at all the title

[01:03:58] I did and I looked it up too and I have to admit I don't know so basically they picked a title for the show that we would look up and not understand much like how we watch this show and we sometimes just don't understand it

[01:04:13] yeah I read like three different definitions and I'm like I don't totally grok this I mean I'm really interested in quantum mechanics but I can't yeah one thing that I have read and understood quantum mechanics is that it's counterintuitive to us

[01:04:34] because it doesn't behave like the physical world we're accustomed to yeah and there's no like unified theory that can describe regular size objects and particles right behavior okay let's get into some notes, you got any notes Diana? I did make a note too about the

[01:04:52] the building of the hosts at Delos it was very strange why would they do that? especially since he knew he knew he was heading into a hostile takeover situation and he suspected there was a host there like the motivations for putting it there and moving it felt strange

[01:05:13] so you know we're gonna go back to I don't want to say poor writing clunky writing I'll say but I wanted to point out was did anyone else notice the little statue that was in Halorys' office or Hale's office I guess

[01:05:31] I thought it was really interesting it was this it was like a bronze or a copper so it had that green patina on it and it was a figure of a woman but she had her arms behind her back and she was sort of arched

[01:05:46] towards the sun and I just thought it was a little bit of a pose it looked a little bit like there was a little bit of defiance to it but it also felt helpless because of the arms behind the back

[01:06:01] so I thought it was foreshadowing in some ways yeah it kind of looked like she did when she was burned too and then apparently I mean I looked this up but when Dolores and Charloris first meet there's a statue kind of like that but it's

[01:06:19] two of them and their arms outstretched but it looks like they're kind of separating from each other interesting and now she's by herself and had to deal with that by herself I thought that the brilliance of our robot saving a robot like a true

[01:06:34] transformer style robot saving a robot was really great I thought it was very gratuitous and totally awesome yeah the riot control the riot control droid Karen called it check-offs droid because we knew we were going to see that thing in action I thought it was awesome

[01:06:55] and on her phone when she activates it it says executive protection subroutine I loved it yeah so that was a little she had a little failsafe there to protect her person I thought it was done pretty well

[01:07:13] for a TV show it looked awesome and I especially liked when it threw that one dude off and pulled great and my last note was since the thing to do is to take screenshots and look at stuff later

[01:07:31] I did get one screenshot of the episode that I thought was really interesting which was when they show Haloris coming home with Nathan and there's all kinds of craziness going on in the streets and things burning and craziness around them

[01:07:46] they go past an alleyway and there's some folks that are spray painting and if you stop and look at it it's the maze from the game which sort of symbolizes that all these people are waking up yeah it's going off their loops

[01:08:04] I thought it was such a great little Easter egg in there and I just loved it so yeah that's all my notes though nice cool I got a few there was a pneumatic tube in her journeys in the air therapy I just thought that was cool steampunk

[01:08:24] that's how they make their bank deposits hello yeah exactly I enjoyed the same scene you're talking about right after we see the maze we see basically cable news like CNN of 2058 and it says insight data leak causes mass chaos the ticker says president calling for martial law

[01:08:51] and then there's these little videos on the left rail that appear to be ticktocks so I just thought that was cool what the news is going to be like in 2058 mass chaos global protests people are advised to stay indoors

[01:09:05] I'm like yeah that's pretty much what I see when I turn on my TV right now yeah nothing is too much right I like the snappy dialogue in this episode you guys have already mentioned some of it but

[01:09:20] Lee says was I supposed to go back to work after realizing I don't exist that was a good idea when they're in a bar Lee and Maeve and Lee says I program them so they don't even see me

[01:09:32] and she's all is that any different from the usual bar room experience yeah that's great so they always have some good dialogue Dolores who is the Martin Connells version to Hector and Lee how many times have you died for her well for you once was all it took

[01:09:53] you guys know I love the sci-fi callouts in this show oh yeah so this one's a little bit of a reach but I was really feeling it so I wonder if this was in one of their minds so we have this whole thing

[01:10:11] where William is left in the AR therapy and it seems like the doctors have all deserted him because of all the chaos going on and he just sort of was abandoned in there right and it's probably going on longer than it should when it's devolving into him like

[01:10:29] murdering his former personalities and stuff and it really reminded me of an original Star Trek episode so season one episode nine from 1966 dagger of the mind they're on a penal colony and this doctor Tristan Adams basically is the warden has been using this device

[01:10:50] called the neural neutralizer to control all the inmates and his staff and it basically empties your mind and allows them to put something different in like suggest something new that goes in the sort of your absence of field concept and in

[01:11:08] the Star Trek episode the guy falls victim to his own invention and dies of loneliness because he gets stuck in their empties his mind but it really reminded me of that AR therapy so I wonder if they thought of that

[01:11:23] It's been so long since I've seen that series so I don't remember but it sounds like it could be Yeah and that was the episode by the way in which we were introduced to the Vulcan mind meld which has never left sci-fi

[01:11:35] I mean they kind of did a little mind meld with Maeve and Hector so maybe that was you're right and then the other one was Charlotte getting burned in the fire and dragging herself out that was an image very reminiscent of the Terminator movie but also

[01:11:56] an image reminiscent of the original Westworld in which sort of the man in black in the original movie is Yol Brenner but he's a host and he pursues sort of the good guy through several of the worlds and eventually gets acid thrown on him and it burns

[01:12:14] his whole body and his whole face off but he survives it really reminded me of that Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they're going back and taking things from that seems like they are Yes and they've done that a few times and then

[01:12:29] the last one for me is to mention some other aspects of what I agree with you guys are just sloppy writing in this season the first one is what kills a host I mean it's totally inconsistent so Maeve got stabbed and died but Charlotte survives a car bomb

[01:12:48] I mean the war is essentially indestructible the Syrox soldiers are like stormtroopers they can't hit anything they don't do anything but get killed so that bugs me a little bit I mean it's just kind of central to the plot seems like it should be consistent

[01:13:06] it also bugs me a little bit that all these convenient things keep happening and in this case like Maeve the second time is saved by the bell she's about to be destroyed by Dolores and then oh what do you know the soldiers showed up

[01:13:24] and she just got saved by like two seconds that's happened a couple times it's getting there's a data breach and it's up there on the screen but the tech turned his head and didn't see it there's all of sort of Syrox general incompetence

[01:13:40] it seems like they keep writing themselves into places where it takes these coincidences to solve the plot so still really enjoyed the episode but I wish it was a little more finely crafted in some of those ways yeah, yeah, yep

[01:13:58] the Man in Black augmented reality simulation thing too is just another nod to this season having us wonder what is a simulation and what isn't and that was just a little mini instance of that you know where oh we finally actually did get something

[01:14:17] where we thought it was the real world and it was a simulation I mean we also had that with Maeve when she was first in War World but it was another one of those it also made me think okay this isn't just

[01:14:28] changing what he sees because of these glasses I mean he didn't seem to realize that he was still sitting in a chair strapped to a chair so it must also sort of fool you into believing that you're walking around and interacting with people and stuff like that too

[01:14:44] yeah for sure I assumed it was not just the glasses but also the implant yeah I was thinking that might be but I mean they said yeah maybe you're right because they were saying oh the implants not working give him a manual tranquilizer or whatever

[01:15:02] and then he bit the guy's finger off but maybe that was just to make us to fool us because that turned out to have been in the simulation too right okay my turn when James is saying to James Dallas is saying to William

[01:15:23] is this the inevitable end are you just a passenger did your life just happen to you that calls back to the season 2 finale called The Passenger where Bernard talking to what we thought was Ford but was probably just Bernard's own subconscious

[01:15:38] saying I always thought it was the hosts who were missing something who were incomplete but it's them meaning the humans they're just algorithms designed to survive at all costs but sophisticated enough to sink think that they're calling the shots I think they're in control

[01:15:52] when they're really just and then Ford says The Passenger so it's just another you know it's a continuation of the theme of whether humans have free will or not and call back to that and then you guys talked about most of my notes

[01:16:09] I thought it was pretty great that Sirach thought he got the drop on sure Laura's but she brought the poison gas canister and he said you should have predicted this and oh I did and second time through I noticed they were all kind of

[01:16:24] coughing and choking yeah yeah me too but now we have I think all the Delos board members dead seems like all the data being erased they're you know burning all the rest of the host bodies so it seems like

[01:16:40] I was wondering if they would be able to find a way to go back to the parks but it doesn't seem like it right where I don't even know if we're going to find out what that sixth park was yeah I was wondering about myself

[01:16:51] it's too bad because the park was cool I know I know at this point I'm kind of feeling like this show should just be one more season you know if to I don't know maybe I'm wrong if they can figure out a way

[01:17:08] to be really inventive with it and extend it out but it feels to me like it's wrapping up yeah I think so too and there have been some reviewers writing and look I'm not sorry it continued because I still really enjoy the show

[01:17:22] but that it would have been a perfect one season show like just tight and perfect if they had just stopped right there with the rebellion of the hosts yeah I mean I was always curious to see okay how are they going to try to

[01:17:38] take over humanity and who are they going to impersonate and now we're finding all that out so yeah it's no it's still a lot of fun yeah and but I miss the parks yeah definitely yeah I do too well

[01:17:53] after last week's episode I was feeling kind of like oh man I feel like I was low energy on that one and I think it was just because the episode wasn't the best but I feel pretty good about this week

[01:18:05] and thanks for coming on Diana we're not done but just thinking of this right now I think this was a better time for me anyway big time we needed the Diana shot in the arm that and an episode too

[01:18:21] so we'll take a little break but there's more to come so stay with us yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah alright a little bit of news from the Hollywood reporter they interviewed Tessa Thompson played Charlotte

[01:19:02] they said what do you view your character as this season we know she's a copy of Dolores but to you is she Dolores do you think of her as a new Charlotte Hale is she someone new entirely what's your interpretation she says there's no real simple

[01:19:17] simple answer because it's shifting as she becomes more integrated into her surroundings I think she has the consciousness of Dolores certainly is on the mission that Dolores is on and Dolores has this take about humanity which is entirely influenced by her experience with humanity

[01:19:32] and then she sends another version of herself into the world this version of herself now has experienced the child that loves and needs her with a partner that loves and needs her and that changes her perception of human beings

[01:19:44] so her idea about this mission which is essentially the destruction of human beings begins to falter I think that's her central conflict this season now at the end of the episode 6 seeing what humanity can do and also seeing the cost of her own mission

[01:19:59] destruction of this little boy destruction of this loved one that she doesn't personally feel for but empathizes with she now has a new mission I think will continue to see her shift and grow which is the thing that's been such a joy about playing her this season

[01:20:14] I like that that she's talking about how just getting to know some humans changed her because I feel like that about people sometimes like people who have you know basically racist ideas should just get to know some more people and not paint everyone

[01:20:29] with a big broad brush like that Hollywood reporter talked with Ed Harris who's William I have a few here just because I was entertained by his answers they say what kind of conversations did you have with Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy about what was in store

[01:20:48] for the man in black this year he says I was just kind of curious as to what was going to happen and what was going on and I really didn't get much input it was pretty much revealed episode by episode

[01:20:59] what was going on with him and I certainly didn't know how the season ended I wish I had a better answer first of all I really enjoyed playing man in black right then all of a sudden he's the man in white

[01:21:08] so I wasn't the happiest camper to tell you the truth because I really enjoyed the part I was playing and I was hoping that he the man in black would continue to somehow be prevalent in the story when I realized that was no longer the case

[01:21:20] I had to just readjust my whole head and get into what was going on with William in this place that he has found himself trapped in this facility being tested and whatever is going on with him they said you get to play the man in black again

[01:21:33] but in this limited virtual reality capacity as well as the philanthropist version of William too he says right I had the experience of a playing the corporate guy in his tuxedo in a number of scenes where now he's the man

[01:21:47] and obviously the man in black I'd been used to playing him young William obviously I wasn't playing then there's the man in white who's under control of the facility the costume helped once you put the tuxedo on you're that guy once you have your man in black suit

[01:22:01] you're that guy when you're the guy in white then you're in a whole other situation you're shooting one of these guys at a time and you're just focused on that particular aspect of his character so I mean it took a little while

[01:22:13] and a lot of costume changes but it was pretty interesting I gotta say they said what did you discover about William as you started digging into his new take on the character I mean he's been so deprived of any sense of freedom

[01:22:26] that I think he's really just trying to survive I mean when they put that whatever it is they do put him in a straight jacket strap him in this chair I mean what choice does he have other than to let him stay in place

[01:22:37] and once they do he's trying to evaluate what the hell is going on with him and who's doing what to who etc and who's in control and what's happening at Delos and all that kind of thing

[01:22:48] so it's just a lot of questions that he has more than anything you know his state of mind is like he's all over the place he's going crazy he's wondering if he's still who he is he doesn't know if he's a host or not

[01:22:59] he's totally at the whim of the powers that be at the moment they say it's jarring to see him so powerless not that he wasn't powerless at points in season 2 but this is a different level it must have been jarring to play too

[01:23:12] he says yeah it was it was jarring to tell you the truth it was hard to enjoy they said I'm sure he goes in other words I didn't like it I still don't but that's my problem they say what you're going through as an actor playing the character

[01:23:25] it's emotionally similar to what's happening with the character he says definitely I definitely allowed my own feelings about it to influence what I was doing laughs I mean I still enjoyed working on it I still enjoyed working on the show

[01:23:39] it was just a whole different way of enjoying it you know I gotta say it was a little bit aggravating and there's the last one what do you think it means when William says he's quote the good guy now

[01:23:49] I think what he means and what he's feeling is if he ever gets out of here if he ever can assume control of his own destiny on some level then what he's after is to rectify this whole situation in other words he understands what has happened

[01:24:02] and he faults himself for most of it I mean it's his fault this whole world that he helped create is now blown up and who knows where it's going he's not sure quite what's happening outside in the world

[01:24:12] but I think he feels determined and has set his mind on trying to do some justice here in that sense I think he feels he's the good guy I just thought it was kind of refreshing to hear from an actor who's not happy with what's going on

[01:24:25] and doesn't care about telling everyone Ed Harris has reached a status he can say anything he wants yeah alright that's it for the news let's get into some of your guys feedback and then we'll go first sure thing Lindsay Schlicht writes in and says

[01:24:46] I've been listening to you guys since episode one but I've never participated in feedback because to be honest I am way too dumb on this show to have much to say welcome to my world Lindsay my god she's speaking out of my heart she goes on to say

[01:25:00] I spend every episode repeating W2TF is going on and I'm tricked at every corner I'm going to do my best here but it's likely to be 37 questions I know what's happening again speaking to me I loved this scene between Maeve and Dolores

[01:25:14] Dolores really does have valid points Maeve is painted as the hero while Dolores is the villain but they are not so different I kind of want the series to end with them teaming up and wiping us all out so man in black is a

[01:25:28] quote unquote good guy now I am so confused on his storyline is that a Dolores-Maeve and who is coming out of the white stuff was it Dolores that blew up hell Dolores's family if so will this make her an enemy now to Dolores Prime

[01:25:44] I was right more questions than anything thank you guys for the podcast it's kept me going all these seasons with this show thank you Lindsay yeah so we'll see if man in black is actually a good guy we don't know I don't know what she means

[01:25:56] by is that a Dolores Maeve I think she's saying is that another Dolores and Maeve's body and I believe we do not think it is we think it's actually Maeve it's Maeve yeah and the other ones we don't know for sure but we think one's Clementine

[01:26:14] and the other one we don't know and for the armistice or the Asian version of armistice right and blowing up the Dolores family the Hale family I was curious about that too but I know remembered on the second watch that they made a really big

[01:26:30] point of showing after the explosion of the car they showed like the guy in the suit off to the side and he looked like one of Syrox I think it's pretty clear this is Syroc Michael Darwin says glad to see Maeve getting a posse together

[01:26:52] but so sad Hector won't be in it I agree I love Hector serves as an interesting contrast with Dolores and she's only trusted herself while Maeve seems to be bringing in other hosts that's a great point going back to something said during the mothers of exiles podcast

[01:27:10] I don't think I'd count out Maeve's agency quite yet Maeve has always been about her independence and I can't imagine she enjoys dancing to Syroc's tune I'm sure she will turn the tables at some point hope you're right with Charlotte I definitely got a terminator vibe

[01:27:26] or limping away from Delos definitely echoed a similar injury to the T-800 as does her emerging from a burning car wreck of course this is just coming full circle as Terminator was partly inspired by Yule Brenner's Gunslinger from the Westworld

[01:27:40] film Michael you and I are on the same page here Joanna Hetz says with all the biblical names in this season just thought I'd mention if you didn't know Caleb is also a biblical and means dog in a way that means loyal follower seems fitting for this character

[01:28:00] keep up the great work guys love the podcast Sarah Larkham says it was an interesting episode I'm glad we got to see some of the man in black as a child Dolores has a point when she said to Maeve that she isn't so innocent when she uses

[01:28:14] her mind control on the hosts this episode was a better episode than last week's agreed agreed yep Tracy Walker says heart breaking at the end Tessa Thompson is just amazing at juggling all the different incarnations of Charlotte we agree James Aducci says

[01:28:34] lots of moving pieces setting the table for the last two episodes love Terminator Shalorus and her right control buddy like R2D2 and see through PO not did anyone who's seen T2 not expect her to come out of the burning car the group session of all the Williams

[01:28:52] was a nice comedic touch looks like Caleb's backstory next week next up we have Jeffrey H. we're gonna say Labby he says the group session with some of the best TV how wonderful of a mind-trip it was I agree Steve Barr says just one

[01:29:12] measly riot control robot so this episode gets only a 98 out of 100 for me I don't think we've seen the last of the riot control robots at least I hope we haven't glad we got to see one but they might not be done

[01:29:26] and then we have a message from Steve Brown Hello house podcast Jason David and welcome Diana to the podcast this week this is Steve and I absolutely do not envy y'all having to figure this one out I hope you because I'm so like thoroughly like confused I know

[01:29:50] there was some straightforward stuff and so I'm going to break down a couple of things but I really enjoyed I really enjoyed the whole first person third person speaking that Hale had when she was talking to I'm assuming it was prime Dolores on the other end

[01:30:06] when that you started doing she's like I'm yours yours ours us and them and whatever the I don't know anyway it was really a great I think I'm sure grammatically it was it was correct the writers put it together so I really enjoyed that scene I was

[01:30:26] just completely blown away I did not expect that car to blow up and and for sure Hale to come out like the Terminator all or I guess Hale Dolores come out like the Terminator all burning and stuff and gosh just so much that reveal that apparently whatever

[01:30:48] that group therapy session with all the different Williams and and Delos was just great other people have already commented on that I'm sure and him just just killing all the other Williams and so yeah just a great episode I cannot wait to hear

[01:31:08] you guys break it down because I'm got a lot of confusion little confused about the some of the Maeve stuff but I do understand some of it I think but yeah just really a trippy kind of episode this time and which when are they not trippy anyway

[01:31:30] all right I've gone over two minutes now and can't remember there was one other thing that I wanted to bring up that I really really enjoyed and I can't think of it now so I'll talk to you later

[01:31:44] okay I remembered it just as I was listening to this recording so hopefully indulge me did David David Jason what damn the lost fan Jason did you realize did you hear when the doctor comes in his name was Alpert just like David Alpert from Lost all right bye

[01:32:02] I didn't catch that I did catch that it was Alpert but I did not make the connection very good yeah very good one other clarification here because I'm a nerd is the only reason one could be could say something like this it was Terminator 1 that this resembled

[01:32:24] right not Terminator 2 Terminator 1 he gets blown up and the his whole body burns off and he becomes an endoscopic yeah yes yeah because in Terminator 2 he got frozen and then he explodes he's fighting the liquid metal right yeah you're right

[01:32:48] I was trying to think what happened to him but he was pretty much mostly intact until he was lowered into the molten right in T2 and melted yeah anyway that had no point and I'm sorry yeah alright that's our show

[01:33:19] thanks for listening everybody thanks for coming on Dan I hope you had fun I did I did I still have no idea what happened in this episode no you did too if you guys want to write in or record a message and send it in

[01:33:31] you can email us at westworld at podcastica.com we also put up a post for each week's episode on our Facebook page at facebook.com and be sure to check out the other great podcasts at podcastica.com this week

[01:33:49] Walking Dead Cast has been off for a little while but we're coming back and we're doing a crossover with the Talking Dead guys the Canadian podcasters we're doing all randomly submitted topics from listeners that we won't look at until we're actually on the podcast

[01:34:03] oh sweet that should be fun what about you Diana what are you guys up to we're in a little bit of a break right now but we're looking at doing some movie watching we have a whole series my podcast co-host is a huge much bigger

[01:34:21] zombie fanatic than I am and he's been watching them for years and years and he's seen every B movie there is so we do this whole series where it's a movie he's seen a million times and I have seen it once and we chat about that movie from

[01:34:35] the from his perspective of knowing it backwards and forwards and from my perspective having only seen it once and it's been a lot of fun so we're looking forward to doing a little bit of that since you know nothing else going on right now

[01:34:51] what's the next dino what's next up we haven't quite decided yet we are considering doing a wrap up on Better Call Saul as well and we're also really interested in talking about the HBO series The Outsiders yeah that was a great one yeah so we're considering

[01:35:09] those topics for the future so when we know we'll let you know they're so interesting like that's Aim for the Head podcast by the way guys so look for that there's like a sequel to Train to Busan coming out the Peninsula and this one I mean my probably

[01:35:31] still my favorite zombie movie ever is Dawn of the Dead remake from 2004 which was directed by Zack Snyder who went on to do some kind of crappy movies in my opinion but I love that one and now he's doing another one it's called Army of the Dead

[01:35:49] and it's in Las Vegas and it I think it's coming out straight to Netflix but just because he did my very favorite one I'm looking forward to that so I hope it's good it's a lot of really good content Train to Busan I think was my favorite

[01:36:03] it's a zombie movie so excited about that sequel I hope it's good what about Shaun of the Dead Shaun of the Dead pretty great up there yeah next episode of this podcast will be Westworld season 3 episode 7 past pond alright that's our show thanks for listening

[01:36:26] hold on I know what I have to do uh oh