10: "Breaking Bad" (S6E11)

[00:00:00] HMM? Ah! Ah! Oh... Podcastica Well, just... Come on, give me something that... There's gotta be some news. Er, remember Bill Oakley? He switched sides. He came out, huh? No, he's not gay. He's a defense attorney now. Huh. Well, I mean... What about you? How are you doing?

[00:00:32] Well, I'm just great. Prince Renear proposed that... Private Jed is taking us to the palace on Thursday. Yeah, okay, well... I guess that's it then. I did get one call... after everything went down. Kim... checking in on me. No kidding? Mm-hmm. Your name came up.

[00:01:06] Asked if you were alive. She asked about me. What did you tell her? Nothing. But she asked. Yep. Oh, okay, well... I guess... This is goodbye. Hello? Hello? Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast, I'm Jason. I'm Reema. And I'm David. And this is Better Call Saul cast.

[00:01:49] Slash Breaking Bad. Yeah. This week, we're covering Better Call Saul, season six, episode 11, Breaking Bad. David was off pulling some scams last week, but welcome back, David. I can't talk about that. I don't have to go yet. But what did you think about last week's episode?

[00:02:14] Well, let me preface this by saying... I kind of heard while I was away that it was sort of a controversial episode. In that, a lot of people didn't like it. And I thought it was awesome. Cool. Yeah, I thought it was a great episode.

[00:02:30] I don't know if they didn't like the black and white or didn't like the pace or didn't... I don't know what people didn't like about it, but I liked it. I think most people just thought, alright, we're finally getting into the Breaking Bad timeframe. Let's see what happens.

[00:02:41] And then... They just wanted that part of the story, you know? Right, Rema? Yeah, maybe just disappointed that it all stayed in the future. Yeah. Rol. I think with this episode, though, I wonder... I didn't read a lot of... Well, most of what I heard,

[00:02:59] it seemed to be pretty favorable. So I wonder if the folks that didn't like so much last week's liked it a little more when we got this week's episode. I bet they did. Because it was definitely a good... And I felt that...

[00:03:12] I mean, I said before I faith in these guys, you know, they're giving us these things for a reason and it got us to this episode. And we needed last week's episode to be here this week. So... Yeah. They strategized these things for a reason.

[00:03:30] I mean, I ended up thinking last week because it was great in and of itself. But yes, also it really built to this too. So yeah. Well... So just a couple of things on last week's before we get into this week's. That struck me.

[00:03:44] One was just Carol Burnett. I mean, fantastic. And so great to see her continue on. What a role. I absolutely loved the call out to the Dirty Dozen when they were planning the caper. That was great. I had to go back and watch the original scene

[00:04:04] from The Dirty Dozen. And then... Wait, wait, wait. I remember hearing something about that. I don't think I ever saw The Dirty Dozen. So can you say what specifically it was? Yeah. So in The Dirty Dozen, which is one of these World War Two movies

[00:04:18] with a huge all-star cast... Doing a caper, right? Kind of like the Great Escape. Yeah. So they're doing a caper where they, you know, invade a Nazi fort or whatever. But and it's all these basically criminals who are in the stockade

[00:04:34] that they're going to recruit to do this dangerous thing. But the way the commanding officer teaches them to do the caper is with these rhyming instructions. They go on for like 20 instructions. I think in Better Call Saul, he only went up to six or seven,

[00:04:50] but it was just a hilarious takeoff on The Dirty Dozen. That's awesome. Very Jimmy McGill thing to do. Yes. And what else? You had something else? The only other thing that struck me as a little weird about that episode was that they had to recast the cab driver.

[00:05:08] I know. With a different actor, but I think that just happens for people who are occasional and they get on a different show and that's that. It's just the way it goes. But the new guy was good too. I thought the new guy was very good and watchable.

[00:05:21] But because he didn't have that potentially psychopathic aspect under the surface, it really felt jarring to me. I wish they could have gotten the other guy back, but it was it was fine. Agreed. All right. Well, let's get into this week's episode.

[00:05:38] Better Call Saul season six, episode 11 Breaking Bad. What did you think in general, Reema? I loved it. I thought it was great. It's definitely an episode I've been waiting for with the cameos that we got. And as much as what and I'll just say,

[00:05:57] like this is not what what makes the show for me or this season or even the series, I think Better Call Saul stands alone very well on its own and we didn't have to have the cameos, but it was definitely pretty awesome to get him.

[00:06:12] It was like icing on the cake and I loved the tie in. So I thought it was great. It was great seeing them. It was great seeing, as I mentioned a minute ago, you know, getting that build up from last week,

[00:06:28] you know, and kind of seeing where it's going. I think we're getting really great character development. We're going to new places and I'm really I'm I'm excited and also scared at the same time of where it's going to go and that it's almost over.

[00:06:43] But I thought it was really great. That it was great acting, great tie ins, great editing and the cutting of scenes and leading into the next scenes was so on point, just a great job all around. The scene where they're looking at the shallow grave

[00:07:02] that Walton Jesse dug for Jimmy Slash Saul and then it transitions to the grave right over the top of Jean. That just chilled me to the bone. Me too, you know, 100 percent. Holy shit. And about tying in Walton Jesse, I just love

[00:07:22] and I shouldn't have expected anything less that it wasn't any gratuitous cameo. It so was integrated into the fabric of where we are with our main character. Jimmy here, you know, so well done in a lot of different ways.

[00:07:35] So yeah, and plus we get to see it's like almost gravy that we just get to see these characters that we love again. Agreed. What about you, David? You hated it. Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I'm going to sign off here.

[00:07:47] I don't really want to talk about it. No, I loved it. I thought it was an amazing episode. And so it did very strongly tie the two shows together and tie us to Saul's origins and to Walton Jesse, not only they're being in the show,

[00:08:04] but sort of with the mirror image name really called back to the better Saul call Saul episode of Breaking Bad, which I'll talk about. I'm sure we all will as we get into this. But it also made an interesting contrast, Rima, as you said,

[00:08:18] I thought it tied the two together, but it was very true to better call Saul. The two shows are different and the show had better call Saul's vibe and pace. And it just had all kinds of great scenes, all the things that are best about this show.

[00:08:33] Plot development, acting, drama, humor. Tragedy. I thought it was one. Yeah, that was one of their best. Well, I have a whole thing about going through and connecting these two episodes. Would it be OK if I start with that?

[00:08:51] I know you guys you could jump in too, if as I go along. OK, they're nodding. Trust me, guys. All right, number one, Breaking Bad Connections. So David just kind of briefly mentioned it, but this episode is called Breaking Bad,

[00:09:08] which is, of course, the name of the series that this series is a prequel to. And I'm mostly talking to Steve Brown as I go through this and who is the other person that hadn't seen Breaking Bad? I forgot who was one other listener.

[00:09:21] I forgot there was another. Talk to you guys. And in it, so clever on different levels because the episode where Jamie and McGill, then known as Saul Goodman first appeared in Breaking Bad, which was season two episode eight was called Better Call Saul.

[00:09:35] And that's where they got the name for the series. And so now to have the episode where Walton and Jesse come into the series being called Breaking Bad is really fun. But it's also even more clever because this episode takes place in between the scenes

[00:09:50] of that earlier episode or a lot of it does. And even more clever, because the term Breaking Bad, if you don't know, is about how when you're on the straight and narrow, but then you turn to crime or some other shenanigans,

[00:10:03] you break bad, which is exactly what Jimmy does in this episode. So it just worked. The title worked on a lot of different levels. And so I'll explain how this episode crosses over with that episode and how it all connects. So in that episode, Jesse's friend Badger

[00:10:20] is out selling Walton Jesse's meth and gets picked up by this undercover cop, which is a hilarious scene. You should watch it. And then at the police station, the cop is questioning Badger trying to get him to give up his supplier or Walton Jesse

[00:10:34] and then Saul steps in first time we ever see him. And Walton Jesse find out that Badger's in jail and decide to hire Saul because Jesse says, as mean as we always joke about, they need a criminal lawyer. And so I think as far as I can remember,

[00:10:53] this is a coincidence that they decided to hire Saul, but Saul had already been representing Badger. Well, I think the way it came about is and they referred back to this in Better Call Saul, he thought he was there to represent somebody who is masturbating in public.

[00:11:09] He kind of gets badger by mistake. Yeah, it's kind of an accident, but I mean, he'll take anybody a meth deal incline is perfect. Right, right. Perfect. Yeah. And there was a Better Call Saul commercial. I think before we saw that in Jesse's apartment,

[00:11:26] his TV was going and it was just like in the background and it was just, you know, kind of unrelated and not talked about. But Jesse indicated who he knew who he was. He's like, you want a guy like this.

[00:11:38] So I guess, you know, word on the street, everyone knows who Saul is. So I think he knew who he was even before that. But yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I mean, yeah, because they go to Saul's office because Jesse suggests it.

[00:11:49] And and they had to flip a coin to see who would go in and or something. And Walt goes in and talks to Saul and says he's Badger's uncle. And Saul tells him the DEA is looking for this guy, Heisenberg, who's making this blue meth.

[00:12:05] And we all know that's actually Walt. And Saul says Badger should just give him up. And Walt offers him $10,000 to have his client reconsider. But apparently Saul kicks him out for trying to bribe him. And then later that night, Walt and Jesse,

[00:12:24] they just don't want Badger to give them up. So they put on ski masks and kidnaps all as he leaves his office and they take him to a freshly dug shallow grave out in the desert. And we so here, we never saw that ride over until this episode.

[00:12:40] So here we see Saul tied up in the back of the RV with a bag over said ahead saying like, yo soy abogado, which is what he said at the beginning of the series when Tuko took him out to the desert. It means I'm a lawyer.

[00:12:56] And then he's saying, whatever this is, can we do it anywhere but the desert? Which because he's had bad experiences in the desert, like that Tuko thing and then with Mike and Bulsas men and season five. You have bag man.

[00:13:08] And also, I think while he was in the RV, he was just thinking that this has something to do with Lalo, you know, and the whole time like Lalo's going to kill me in the desert.

[00:13:22] And so then they get to where they're going, they push him out of the RV and take his mask off and he sees the shallow grave and he goes, it wasn't me, it was Ignacio. And then I mean, I feel like this is a tease.

[00:13:34] We're expecting to see Walt and Jesse, but then they cut to some other scene. And then later we cut back to it after their whole conversation and which I'll say in a second, but then we do see Jesse walk into the RV

[00:13:55] and we're like, yes. And man, he looks older, but what are you going to do? So you got to just go with it. Yeah, you got to let it go. So anyway, back in the Breaking Bad episode, he says that same line. It wasn't me, it was Ignacio.

[00:14:09] He's the one Siampre Soy Amigo Del Cartel, which means I'm a friend of the cartel, which we saw how that developed with Lalo. And Jesse says, shut up. All right, just speak English. And then Sal's like, Lalo didn't send you. No, Lalo. Who?

[00:14:23] Thank God. I thought, oh, what can I do for you gentlemen? And they threaten to kill him if he doesn't represent Badger and prevent him from snitching on them. And he hears Walt coughing. They still have their ski masks on,

[00:14:39] but he recognizes the cough from when he came to earlier to his office. And he tells him to just take your mask off, put a dollar in my pocket, which invokes attorney client privilege. And he's now their lawyer and he tells them somebody is going to prison.

[00:14:54] It's just a matter of who. So we'll learn what his plan is in a minute. But now cut back to Better Call Saul, where it shows them go back inside the RV to go home. And he picks up the round flask, Jimmy.

[00:15:09] And he's like, I mean, look at this. I had a fish that could have used this as a vacation home, which I love because it's about his fish that we've seen so many times. I like that continuity. Swimmy McGill. Swimmy McGill. Is that right?

[00:15:23] And also it's it ties into Walt being so proud of his flasks and his other meth and chemistry implements and Jesse learning about them, which was a big thing and breaking bad. And then this is also Saul realizing that not only that Walt and Jesse

[00:15:38] make the blue meth there in the RV, but that they're the ones who make it. The way he said that, it was like he was just realizing that he yeah. And then he says so if you cook the blue stuff that makes you ego

[00:15:49] are pointing at Jesse and that means you're Heisenberg. And like I said, that was like this mystique that he created around this Heisenberg person representing this powerful drug lord that Walt wanted to be.

[00:16:02] And then there was that whole thing where Walt almost flooded the ignition of the RV, which they were always arguing about how to drive the RV, how to start the RV. And they were having problems with it. And it got stranded in the very next episode

[00:16:13] because of some dumb thing that Jesse did. And Jesse asked about Lalo, which makes sense. He would have never heard of Lalo because it was before his time. And then back in Breaking Bad, Saul brings in one of his contacts, Jimmy In-N-Out,

[00:16:31] who's going to allow himself to be put in jail and pretend to be Heisenberg for a fee. And he charges Walt and Jesse $80,000 plus a pound of meth for this. And so they stage another drug buy and this Jimmy In-N-Out guy gets busted and goes to jail.

[00:16:47] And then back in Better Call Saul, Mike and Saul are in Saul's office and talking about Walt's. And Mike has dug up a bunch of info on him that he's a high school chemistry teacher, has cancer, working with his former student, meth head Jesse Pinkman,

[00:17:07] which we never saw, of course, in Breaking Bad. And we didn't even meet Mike in Breaking Bad for another five episodes after this. And Jimmy tells him he sees something special in Walt and then he goes to the school where Walt teaches

[00:17:19] and then cut back to the Breaking Bad episode. We see Walt in his classroom, like cleaning up after school or something. And Saul walks in and like busts his chops for it being so easy for his PI, who we now know is Mike, to find him.

[00:17:32] And Walt's like, all in there, what are you doing here? How'd you know I was here? And then he offers to act as Walt's consigliary kind of like in The Godfather for his meth operation and he can connect, he can help with connections and strategy.

[00:17:44] And he says, if you want to make more money and keep the money that you make, better call Saul. And and that was perfect because Walt had been wanting to scale his operation. And at that point, they were kind of bumbling idiots in a lot of ways.

[00:17:58] So they really needed someone like like Saul. So. I think that pretty much brings us up to speed. There's another couple of small things in the gene timeline. Jeff's partner doesn't buddy, doesn't want to rob this guy with cancer.

[00:18:14] And Jimmy says, you think a guy with cancer can't be an asshole? Believe me, I speak from experience. He's talking about Walt there. And then there's more connections, especially I know it's so dark, but there's more connections, especially in the call with Francesca.

[00:18:29] But that's so much more that I'll leave it for one of you guys to talk about or another point. But that's basically a rundown of how these two episodes fit together. I bet somebody would cut it together into one long episode

[00:18:40] and it would be really jarring to see the age differences. But I'd be really surprised if that's not somewhere on the Internet. Already. Yeah, yeah. And I want to see it too. Yeah, a couple other just little connections

[00:18:55] there they connected so many little details of these two episodes. But. One was part of his scam with the guy with cancer, you know, in the forward timeline of. Better call Saul, he talks about, oh, I see you're taking a bunch of vitamins.

[00:19:15] I used to take a bunch of vitamins and there was this scene in the better call, Saul episode of Breaking Bad where we see him take a couple of pills and he's on the phone with Francesca and he says

[00:19:28] he's accusing her of getting the pills wrong and says, you're not supposed to double up on vitamin A. It's bad for the liver. So we know this is him taking the vitamins that gets referred to later. I totally forgot about that. Yeah, and.

[00:19:44] When that episode begins before we even meet, Saul, the drug deal where Badger gets arrested, they're sitting on a better call Saul advertisement that is an entire bench. Yeah, in the bench. Yeah. Yeah. And then one other I noticed that came up as

[00:20:01] he's interviewing Badger for the first time in jail. And he says, you're going to call your mommy or your daddy or your parish priest or your Boy Scout leader and they're going to deliver me a check for $4,650.

[00:20:18] Actually, I want a money order and make it out to Ice Station Zebra Associates. That's right. Yeah. And that was the fake holding company that Giselle and Victor had done their first scam on a guy with. It's a Rock Hudson movie that they watch at one point and

[00:20:37] it was her dad's favorite movie. Yeah. So there was a lot of little Easter eggs that they put in there. Such a joy for a fan of both these shows to see them connect all the stuff together.

[00:20:50] And for me, like I used to used to bother me how in a TV show back in the 80s, something would happen and then it would just never be referred to again. So when like Seinfeld started having things continue on, it just I just loved it.

[00:21:06] And these shows do it even more. It's great. Yeah. And the last one and I will mention this, even though I'm not sure if it's an intended connection, but they're so intentional in the show, I kind of feel like it is.

[00:21:20] So that that guy, they hired to go to prison on purpose and be Heisenberg in place of Walt. His name is James Edward Cochelli. And the guy that actually feels more comfortable in prison. So he'll go to prison for you on purpose.

[00:21:36] And he refers to him as Jimmy in and out. And I feel like this is kind of where they got the inspiration for slip and Jimmy. Yeah, because in Breaking Bad, when he in this episode, I think, right? He says his name is not actually Saul Goodman.

[00:21:55] It's McGill, but he doesn't say Jimmy. We don't find out just Jimmy until Better Call Saul episode one. Right, I think. Cool. OK, Reema, how about you? Would you like to go next?

[00:22:09] Well, I'll just add because it was one of my not really a point, but in my notes, some of the callbacks, which you guys have already mentioned most of. But there were a couple that I also had. Sorry, just going through my list.

[00:22:24] There was the moment when they are back in the RV, Saul and Walt and Jesse and Walt's trying to get the engine restarted again. And, you know, Saul asks Walt to try it again. And he said because they're going to find us buried in a sandstorm a thousand

[00:22:41] years from now, which is a reference to Ozzie Mandeus, the Shelley poem that Breaking Bad got its name from. And we all know it's an iconic epic episode. So I thought that was a fun little tie in as well. And it's all about how like King Ozzie

[00:23:01] Mandeus boasting or something about his empire, but it's just written on a like decayed remains of some statue in the desert or something like that. Right. And it's a reference to Walt's meth empire just crumbling all around him.

[00:23:14] Yep. I think that was the only one that I had that you guys haven't already. Yeah, just from Breaking Bad. I've got some callbacks for like Better Call Saul specifically, but that's that's all that I had for callbacks. I might have some sprinkled in my notes.

[00:23:31] Because there were a bunch in Francesca's call. Yeah, there's yeah, I do have more to reference in Francesca's call. But yeah, why don't you move on to a bigger point of yours then? Well, I mean, you covered a lot of it when when you were talking about

[00:23:45] the the tie ins to the two episodes and and I I didn't know for sure. I mean, you could you obviously got a pretty good indication of what this episode of what it was going to be based off the title. But before it aired on Monday night,

[00:23:59] I decided to watch the Breaking Bad episode Better Call Saul because I'm like, why not? It's one of my favorite episodes. And I thought, you know, there might be something there to help refresh. I mean, I did a rewatch a while back, but I thought, let's just refresh

[00:24:13] my memory in case for obvious reasons, something comes back, you know, and I'll have it fresh in my head. So I watched that episode and then immediately it was eight in Better Call Saul came on and it was it just jumped straight into it.

[00:24:27] And it just made it all the more fun. So I'm just going to say if no one's done that, it was super fun to kind of go watch the Breaking Bad episode and then watch this Better Call Saul episode of Breaking Bad and seeing.

[00:24:40] I imagine it might be kind of like watching Pulp Fiction where it's all out of order. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is a high level kind of general note about the tie in with the episode

[00:24:58] title, as you mentioned, the tie ins between the Breaking Bad episode and this episode, this title was Breaking Bad. First, the episode on Breaking Bad, you know, was when we met Saul for the first time, it was titled Better Call Saul, so appropriate that we

[00:25:11] get our cameos in this episode. But the title Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul serves, in my opinion, a bigger purpose. And I'm interested to hear what you guys think and maybe we'll find that

[00:25:22] out as we talk about our notes is that in this episode, Jean, who we have because we were still kind of in not the past, I guess in the future, he's going down a really bad path.

[00:25:36] And last week's episode, I felt like he was kind of sliding into like more of a slip and jimmy kind of mode. And in this episode, he's definitely gotten into Saul territory, but then by the end of the episode, he's becoming someone new.

[00:25:53] And it feels like he's the one Breaking Bad. And that's why I think that's the title of this episode was really important and the tie in to seeing Walt and Jesse and in that moment in

[00:26:04] season two from Breaking Bad and where they were to kind of hold up that mirror to Jean, to show he's kind of going down in my opinion, the same path that Walt went down when he was Breaking Bad. What do you guys think about that?

[00:26:18] I that's why I felt this was kind of important. We were getting these flashbacks and seeing all of the tie ins and you get those inner cuts between the scenes because to me we're kind of getting that same progression that Walt went down.

[00:26:32] Yeah, I mean, I've always I kind of at one point with because I thought Better Call Saul was going to be about Saul Goodman. And it really wasn't. It was about how Jimmy McGill become Saul Goodman.

[00:26:46] And I thought, oh, that's kind of like a repeat in some ways of Breaking Bad is the same idea. It's it's a different version of it. But yeah, I totally agree. And especially this episode, like Walt just got so

[00:27:04] up his own ass, you know, he was so very good. And yeah, and that was his fatal flaw just blown up. Like I see him him and also Jimmy on a continuum of your best self and your worst self.

[00:27:17] There's similarities between Jimmy at his best and at his worst, but one is a lot darker. And I think Heisenberg is to Walt as Saul Goodman is to Jimmy. And yeah, I think this is him at his lowest point.

[00:27:33] I mean, it's still similar because when he's going and stealing money from these rich single guys, he's no longer a criminal lawyer. He's just a criminal and it's it's it's awful. But it's still kind of similar to what he and Kim were doing

[00:27:50] with these rich assholes at where they got the Zafiro and Aho or whatever Saul's thing, Jimmy's thing is that he's he thinks some people think they're too good for him and they deserve to be taken down a peg.

[00:28:04] And I just think when Jimmy is feeling particularly low about himself, then he sees himself as lower than everybody. So almost everybody. He sees as being, oh, they think they're too good for me and they deserve to take down a peg. That's when he's at his lowest point.

[00:28:22] And when he can even like scam this guy who has cancer, you know, he just hates everyone. Yeah, so I can follow that along as my point. So I totally agree with you, Rima. I think you're right on.

[00:28:37] I think that is the purpose of this episode is to draw together the parallel of Walt and Saul, which has always sort of been there. But now it's become explicit that when you break bad, there is no going back.

[00:28:53] And he is going down that road that's getting darker and darker and darker the same way Walt did. And in a lot of similarities to right, Walt started out wanting to make enough money for his family

[00:29:08] before he dies of cancer so they can live well and not be in debt. But in the end, he ends up going way beyond that in every way. And he keeps going when that is not no longer a plausible purpose.

[00:29:23] And it becomes more about his ego and the birthright he feels was stolen by Gretchen Elliott with Grey Matter, and maybe Gretchen herself by Elliott and eventually says I'm not in the meth business or the money business. I'm in the empire business.

[00:29:41] And then even when he tries to get out, there is no getting out at this point and his ego doesn't let him get out. So for Jimmy Saul Jean, which is, I think, to your point now, really three characters

[00:29:58] you know, he sort of has an outward reason for going back to crime. The first time it's to conceal his identity, right? To get something on this guy who's figured out who he is to protect himself.

[00:30:12] And then they sort of throw in there in this episode that, well, he lost all the money he made while he was in Albuquerque because the feds got it all. But he is like a single guy living alone at this point.

[00:30:26] And Francesca also makes the point that he took a bunch of money with him. So it's probably not really plausible that his reason for going back to scamming is necessarily that he needs money. And also, like, Walt, I think there is no chance

[00:30:45] of his returning to his former life. Like, he can't go back to being a flashy public figure. And that's what he loved most about being Saul, wasn't just having money. But, you know, it was the way he. He spent his money. So I agree with you.

[00:31:01] I think he is a third character now and it's much darker than everything that's come before. And I know for me in Breaking Bad, I mean, Walt's such a compelling character. But I started disliking Walt a lot earlier.

[00:31:18] Like he turns into a bad guy pretty early on who does some just things you can't excuse. And I think Saul slash Jimmy is so likeable, although sleazy. I've kind of liked him all along, even when he is doing some bad stuff.

[00:31:39] And this was almost the first time he went to a place where, like, man, you can't you can't like that. And he's become this. Remember when Chuck said Jimmy McGill with a law degree would be like a chimpanzee with a machine gun?

[00:31:55] It's like now he's the he's wielding the machine gun now. And I don't know, there wasn't much redeeming about him at the end of this show. Yeah, it scared me there at the end because I'm like they're they're showing us now that he's not likable

[00:32:14] and I don't feel good. There's going to be any type of happy ending. I know I'm feeling more like this is just going to be a straight up tragedy. Yeah, I don't mean if it's death or anything,

[00:32:26] but I just don't think there's going to be my whole sunshine and rainbows. It could be shallow grave superimposed over Jean. I know, I know. I think there's a I mean, yeah, they're pretty pretty out there on that one.

[00:32:38] Yeah, but they went out of their way to show us he's not. It's not a good character. This isn't fun, lovable Jimmy. It's not, you know, slightly sleazy or very sleazy, so but still kind of charming and funny in his own way. This dude, this was bad.

[00:32:53] No, Karen and I watching it said when he sent the cancer guy off in the cab, we were like, was that the real cab? Did he call it off? Yeah, they're not going to do it, right?

[00:33:05] Yeah, which is what I think his character would have done earlier in the show. And then you find out not only he's going to go through with it, but he's going to take a risk, a needless risk.

[00:33:17] It's going to push a guy who doesn't want to do it. Right. And then and then the crime itself, like the scams he was running with Kim before the Howard one, which escalated it. But like, oh, they got some tequila out of some rich asshole.

[00:33:33] You know, it was kind of harmless. Yeah. And then the crimes they're doing now are not harmless. They're like stealing these guys' identities. Yeah. So it's definitely a different level. Yeah, I thought the same thing. I mean, I was thinking it must be jarring for people who watched

[00:33:52] Better Call Saul but didn't see Breaking Bad and don't know what Saul Goodman was like. Even if you do know, it was pretty jarring to see how low Jimmy went here. But if you don't know, because they did keep him generally likeable,

[00:34:09] I mean, the one point I can remember that stands out is when he said all those really poignant words about Chuck at that hearing. And then he was like, they bought it. That was like, oh, but this is even worse.

[00:34:25] And and yeah, so if you're going through the whole series thinking, well, yeah, he's got his problems, but he's he's super fun. And I'd love to have a beer with this guy. And then this is really the episode where you're like, oh, fuck man,

[00:34:36] I don't like him anymore. It's like, whoa. But with yeah, with Walt, it was a much more gradual until you just at one point realize, oh, wow, I don't like Walt anymore. And we see in that Breaking Bad episode two. He was casually ready to have Badger killed.

[00:34:55] Yeah, like he was just like, why are you bothering me? Just kill him. Yeah. And that's different than most of the way he was during Better Call Saul too. And this episode, I feel like this episode makes me connect Jimmy McGill

[00:35:10] with Saul Goodman in a way that he's never felt before. Like that casually suggesting killing Badger and also at one point he suggested to Walt to kill Jesse. Yes, and he believes. Yeah. And and the things that I keep bringing up the sleaziness of Saul,

[00:35:29] how he's calling Francesca Sherrititz. And and I thought, I mean, that I bring up that point just because I want things to connect and make sense. But this episode shows that it's actually kind of a key point because

[00:35:45] he's doing all of this to cover up his pain of what happened with Kim of being rejected. And that ties into his key like trigger point where thinking that he's not good enough, you know, he's that's that's where he gets that's the sore spot.

[00:35:59] And when the people he cares about the cares about the most reject him, that's when he gets the most cold hearted and he covers it up, however, excuse me, covers up his pain by doing these scams and hurting people and also with women.

[00:36:11] And you see him at the strip club and you see him making some sleazy comment to Walt and Jesse about his chiropractor like taking care of everything. And what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And it just all makes much more sense now that he this is him

[00:36:28] that is worst and this is what he does to cover up all that pain that he has. Just one last little detail because this these two shows were so cleverly tied together. But we see in the flashback Saul making fun of Walt's mustache. Yeah.

[00:36:48] And then and then in the gene story line, he himself. That's right. Yes. It's such a good time. What did he say? What was the line? Something you can't can't trust someone with that kind of mustache or something to that fact that's paraphrasing.

[00:37:02] But yeah, and I'm like, dude, you have the exact same mustache. And David, you mentioned that like the purpose of this episode was to draw parallels between Walt and Jimmy. And I think that's true. And I also think it's just to show that Jimmy has this self-destructive pattern

[00:37:21] and we saw it play out in Breaking Bad. We didn't know it, but that whole thing was a reaction to being hurt by Kim, I think, you know, mostly self-sabotage with him. It's this. Yeah. And it's the same thing that is happening right now.

[00:37:34] That's another reason why these two pairing these two episodes paired so well because it's showing that Kim, I mean, Jimmy does this as a reaction to being hurt by the person that he loves the most. Yeah. Saul was born when Chuck died.

[00:37:51] And then he went full embraced the whole persona, like 24 seven lived and breathed Saul Goodman after Kim left him. And now he's evolving into something else because of, you know, he's gotten the news from Francesca. Everything's been burned to the ground. He's still hot.

[00:38:08] And whatever this conversation was that was about either with Kim or about Kim, he's now evolved to something else. Am I? I will go ahead. No, go ahead, David. No, I was just going to say, we'll say, I think of the all the versions

[00:38:26] we've seen of this character, the Saul and Breaking Bad was the most comfortable for him. He was very comfortable and self-confident as that character. All the time leading up to it, he was caught in between being one thing or being another thing.

[00:38:43] And now the the gene version of it seems sort of just grim. And depressing. And the the Saul Albuquerque glory days was him at his most self-confident. Hence the black and white in the gene storyline. But I think that, you know, Saul is him.

[00:39:04] I've used this phrase a lot, but armored up and closed hearted. And I think Bob Owen Kirk has said, yeah, that's when it's easy for him. You don't have to worry about am I doing the right thing or, you know, do I have to care about anything?

[00:39:19] You just fucking go out there and get what's yours. And so it's easy for him. But it also means I think that deep down he's he's repressed all this pain and that can't be healthy psychologically, you know, it just he's so good at even in this episode.

[00:39:36] We didn't know like you said after he did he send this guy with poor guy with cancer off in the wrong cab because he had a change of heart because the way that he acts, he is really good at seeming like he's not in pain at all.

[00:39:51] Even though he really is. Agreed. That's what I do. I just create and put up a create a new persona and put up a wall. And yeah, we never actually met you. Yeah, still still identities from like Reema 3.0 at this point. So. OK, is it my turn?

[00:40:11] Go for it. I think it is, right? Yeah. So my next one is is understanding Saul, which we've already talked about. I think, you know, his personality runs on this continuum. And it makes me think of the Enneagram, which is one of those tools that people use to

[00:40:32] to figure out what personality type you are. And if you take a quiz and everything, it'll tell you. But it's interesting because it tells you on your bad days, what you're like, and it's it can be a lot different.

[00:40:46] You know, you can take these strengths and on your bad days, basically turn them either into self-destructive or to hurt other people. And so I think that's that's all that's what we've seen. His strength is that he's a talker and he can. Charm people and, you know,

[00:41:05] he could use that to make people really happy when he's in a in a good place, like at the bingo hall, or he can use it to screw people over. And I think we've actually talked enough about understanding Saul.

[00:41:22] The ending was such a bummer with the guy with cancer because he just seemed like such a good guy. And I always wondered if we'd see more stuff in the gene timeline. And I actually thought that, you know, when the show first started,

[00:41:38] as we got into it a little bit, that maybe at some point we would just switch over to the gene timeline and have a season of him. Just or more, you know, they said this show could potentially go on. And definitely they said that.

[00:41:51] I mean, not definitely, but for more seasons. And I never imagined it would be like this darker than anything that came before. I don't think they did either. They envisioned the show as a comedy when they first were thinking about it. But, um, yeah.

[00:42:07] And then also another thing that he does, I think that's worse than ever before is just how reckless he gets when he's his worst self, like insisting on going back to this guy's house, and going himself, putting himself in direct risk. No, there's no tape on the door.

[00:42:25] So he has to break in the guy might be waking up in the drugs. It's just like he's hammering the nails into his own coffin here. And even as dark as it is, I'm still a little hopeful that there's some moment of upbeat upbeatedness at the end.

[00:42:40] Otherwise, why not just have this be the last episode? Right. I don't know. I guess they could just keep going down the rabbit hole even further and further as it goes along. I always thought they should have let Breaking Bad end with him dying alone

[00:42:52] of cancer in Vermont or wherever he was. So yeah, that would have been the equivalent of just ending the show here. Yeah. Do you think they might do something like that with Saul? I don't know. I'm not sure where it's going. I mean, maybe we'll talk about this.

[00:43:10] Yeah, well, pretty sure. We have some sure we have some guesses, but I don't know where they're going. All right, let's move on. Rima. Well, I want to talk a little bit about a little nugget of information that Francesca provided. And that's Kim.

[00:43:29] Kim is still alive, at least at this point in the story. And we didn't get a whole lot of answers. There's very little, but we did get some information about Kim. So when she's alive, but I think if my theories on the timeline were right,

[00:43:47] we're only like several months or a handful of months out from the events with Walton, everything that happened in Albuquerque when they fled. Could be as little as like two months, because he told Francesca in that one

[00:44:02] scene that they showed the one other time they flashed forward and Breaking Bad be at this pay phone in November, November 12th. And we think it was September. Didn't know what we said when Saul went undercover. So it could just be like two months.

[00:44:18] I think it was just, yeah, I don't think it was more than maybe a handful of months. I don't have it in front of me. It's in last week's notes. And I I forgot what it did yesterday. So I can't remember exactly what I think.

[00:44:28] Even the guys on the podcast were saying it was pretty. Was it just like a few, you know? OK, so I didn't quite catch that. So did that make it that makes sense that it wasn't that long after the way they were talking and because of that.

[00:44:40] Yeah, it hasn't been like years. Yeah. Does that mean within the gene timeline this that was a flashback? Because it seems like he's been in the Cinnabon world longer than that. I don't think he has.

[00:44:53] It seems like it because it's been five years of us seeing these little snippets. But I think it all took place within two months. OK, you think that all happened with the security guards and the cab driver? All that happened that fast. OK, fair enough.

[00:45:10] We're we're going with it until someone tells us otherwise. And I think it does make sense that he's so nervous about being found out and everything that it seems like he hasn't really had time to settle in and figure out that he's OK.

[00:45:28] Yeah, and it also makes sense that he wouldn't live for years as Gene Tachavec of Cinnabon. He just doesn't have that in him. No, especially now that we've seen the gene of the Saul and the Jimmy slip and Jimmy come out.

[00:45:41] We just know he can't keep that buried for too long. Yeah, it's it's it's an addiction for him. I think we test shown last week that it kind of makes sense if it's that short of a time frame that it's it's he can't keep it suppressed very long

[00:45:55] and clearly didn't have intention to based on that call with like I wasn't sure that reference of when he told Francesca to be at that pay phone at that time, like, well, what does that mean? And we got to see that here.

[00:46:08] That isn't what I thought it was going to be. So yeah, it definitely lets you know that he can't suppress his his addiction and his his needs to to, you know, and he can't live as Gene, it's he can't keep doing this.

[00:46:23] Yeah, I mean here he's like what was it after the phone call with Kim? And then the next scene is him staring at this machine just going around and around at the Cinnabon. And then the next scene after that is him over at Jeff's house.

[00:46:36] He's like, fuck this. I need something back in business. He knows he's got to keep up the appearances, you know, as Gene for now. But he's he's got to get that fix in, you know, and get these cons going and get bigger and bigger.

[00:46:51] But, you know, and I don't have a lot to say about Kim because there wasn't a whole lot about her. But we did find out when she's alive, she did call and check on Francesca because obviously this was huge national news, right?

[00:47:04] The the meth bus there in Albuquerque and Sol was, you know, implicated as well and everything was going down. So we know that she called and checked on Francesca. We know she asked about Jimmy, which definitely made his ears perk up that, you know, and it was so.

[00:47:20] So just a moment when he goes, she asked about me. Oh, man. So much said in just a short sentence there. And we found out after he hung up Francesca, he calls and we find out she's in Florida working at a place called Palm Coast Sprinklers,

[00:47:39] which I'm just my I'm just dying to find out what's behind all of that. How did she end up in Florida? How did she end up at this job? And if I can give a slight spoiler, spoilery on next week's episode title, is that OK?

[00:47:55] I don't know anything about it. I don't have a description, but the title of next week's episode is called Waterworks. So I wonder if we're going to get some camp. Sprinklers, I hope I hope because I really want because one one unsatisfactory one gripe and complaint for me.

[00:48:14] This episode was we did not get the fricking audio in the phone booth with whenever he came, I was it was he on the phone with camp? Oh, I thought it was great. Now look, I appreciate like, you know, how it adds to the story.

[00:48:28] I thought it was brilliant way with shot. I love that they are they're keeping us in the dark. But the fan in me is like, oh, my God, I want to know what was said. I think we might find out.

[00:48:37] But I'm just curious if that's where next week is going to go. I hope so. Yeah, Waterworks sounds like sprinklers. It also evokes crying. So there may be some crying. There could be a lot of crying. Yeah, I'm totally guessing.

[00:48:52] And I heard I can't take credit for this. I saw it on a YouTube video that it's also just two spaces away on the monopoly board from go directly to jail. Oh, shit. I did not put that together. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:49:11] But I was just happy because I am dying for some Kim in my life. I love Kim Wexler. I just I've talked about her so many times. It's not a secret by any means. And I think she's so great. And I really just have this get feeling.

[00:49:26] And we've only had a couple of episodes left, but it just didn't sit well with me that that was the episode when she left, that that was all that we're going to get. I just feel like there's got to be something else.

[00:49:36] Maybe I need the closure, maybe Saul doesn't or maybe Jimmy, but I feel like I need closure with Kim. Yeah, you too. There's got to be. I know there's going to be more Kim, even if it's just one scene. But just happy that she got mentioned.

[00:49:50] It was weird hearing her name in the Jean storyline, you know, hearing her name. Francesca, too. Yeah, so it was that was cool. But I was just happy that we got a mention of Kim, got some information on her

[00:50:05] and hopeful that she'll be in another upcoming episode in the remaining two. Yeah, just the fact that she asked about him and asked whether he was still alive is enough to prompt him to call her and maybe think there's a chance for them.

[00:50:19] And I'm like, well, if you're asking if someone's still alive, that's sort of the bare minimum amount of interest. I mean, it could even be that she's not she's hoping the answers know. I mean, I don't think so, but.

[00:50:35] But yeah, then it was so heartbreaking to see that. Because we've never seen him fight like that before. We assume he was talking to her, not someone at her office that wouldn't let her talk to her or something. Yeah, I assume it was.

[00:50:49] It reminded me of in Lost in Translation, Bill Murray says something to Scarlett Johansson at the end and we don't get to hear it. And it's more powerful for me that way because. It just is more of a feeling, you know.

[00:51:04] But here it's like that only in a negative way. And like Better Call Saul is so good about not. Saying the melodramatic stuff because we don't usually say that. But the times where we do get melodramatic or when we're fighting with our exes or whatever.

[00:51:21] And that's when we say the things that we've left unsaid before that. But so I thought it was sort of an artistic choice not to. Say it because maybe we can get the gist of it like maybe it's Jimmy, what's wrong with you?

[00:51:35] I told you never to call me. What the fuck have you been doing? What's all this shit with Walter White? Never call me again. I can imagine that. I mean, clearly, it didn't go well and clearly, it was pretty bad

[00:51:48] because we saw what happens after and how he clearly escalates on this darker path. And that's like you said, a pattern of his behavior when loved ones in his life leave or reject him or whatever.

[00:52:04] But yeah, I mean, I can't imagine she'd want him to contact her at all. I mean, when he's like in hiding, he's highly he's a fugitive, highly wanted right on the hot list. She would want to have nothing to do with that.

[00:52:20] I mean, I don't know what she said, but I imagine my in my imagination was I told you or through OK, you know, which is heart it's heartbreaking. Who knows though, it could be totally wrong and I kind of hope we do find out.

[00:52:33] But that's what I thought. Clearly, it wasn't something nice. You didn't seem too happy about it. No, I don't think there was heartfelt professions of love or I miss you. Anything like that? Yeah, it's sad. It really is.

[00:52:52] I want I mean, I at the same time as I appreciate the artistry of the show and also one of my favorite things about Breaking Bad and Mad Cross all is I think they have a really good handle on how people really can be.

[00:53:03] And one way that people can be is they repeat self destructive patterns and and they get triggered and they have these sore spots and things and things don't always work out the way that you hope they will.

[00:53:18] But I still then the other side of me is like, no, I want these guys to work out and be happy together. And I still have hope that's going to happen, but that's probably not going to happen.

[00:53:28] Yeah. Well, and clearly, I was wrong that she was somewhere in Nebraska with Jean being in a house in Omaha and she was from Nebraska thinking, oh, she's going to like go home, you know, wherever, whatever small town or home she was from.

[00:53:40] And clearly, I was wrong on that. So yeah, I'm not too hopeful that they're going to end up and right off into the sunset together and. I'm still I think there's I feel like it's down to like 10 percent now,

[00:53:54] but I think there may be some like possible ending on a note of hope with them. Maybe she'll visit him in jail. I don't know. They shall visit his grave. Maybe. Will be that same shallow grave. OK, I think. I kind of sort of did a point.

[00:54:15] So, David, what you got? Well, I'll follow on Kim. I felt like we learned quite a bit, actually, from that short conversation. Obviously, where she was in this POMCO sprinklers. I did not think it was clear that he talked to her at all.

[00:54:37] Maybe I mean they just concealed the conversation. So he obviously was very frustrated afterwards. That could mean she's not there. Something happened to her. She just wouldn't talk to him. It could have meant any of those things or they had a bad conversation.

[00:54:52] It seemed like in some form it was probably a rejection, I would say, or else he wouldn't have been that impacted. But we don't know. Or I agree. A rejection by her from someone else or news of something bad that happened to her.

[00:55:07] I was going to say, maybe it could have been news of her death. Maybe something from the time that she contacted Francesca after everything happened. We know there's been some months as past. Maybe something tragic happened to Kim. I don't want to. I'm just I don't know.

[00:55:21] I'm throwing out possibilities because what would make him act like that? Right, I think we also have to remember, though, that our sense of this is a little warped on the timing because all of the Saul Goodman glory days in Albuquerque were after Kim left him.

[00:55:40] And I think we already established that that was some years that went by to create that whole persona of the house and the office, at least a couple, whole machinery. Then all of Breaking Bad took place

[00:55:56] with her not in the picture and then a couple more months after that. So this is years later than the last time. True. Saul and Kim interacted. I do think it's interesting that he knows. So we find out he knows where she is,

[00:56:15] but they have not been in regular contact. Yeah, I wonder how he knew. I mean, I just think he's good at finding things out. I think he's been keeping tabs on her. Yeah, but he had Mike to help him, you know,

[00:56:28] like get all the intel on Walt and anyone else, you know, clients or just whatever. That was his PI, but who? I don't know. I just still think unless she's deliberately hiding. Well, and he would have had Mike until recently. At least they were still associated until recently.

[00:56:46] He's resourceful. Yeah, until yeah. But so I think that's one thing to keep in mind that this is years and years later. I think another thing we learned about Kim is, OK, years have gone by. But it's a pretty strong indication

[00:57:02] that she has not gone back to being a lawyer, that honestly, she's probably whatever she's doing, it's way below her capabilities because I mean, she's this brilliant, driven, talented person. Unless she's the CEO of Sprinkler World or whatever. Yeah, maybe.

[00:57:20] But you know, it's kind of a pathetic sounding thing. Yeah, it is. No offense to any like Sprinkler employees. Yeah, and that I thought even just in this little vignette made the Kim story much more tragic. Like she could have gone to that meeting in Santa Fe

[00:57:41] and be running this incredible organization that helps indigent clients and using all her brilliance and making this big difference in the world. And she turned around to go back to carry out the Howard scam and then look what her life is now. I mean, it's just tragic.

[00:58:00] And I think what we've learned here is it never turned around and went back the other direction like that world of her is done. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing, and I'm agreeing with you here that whatever they said on the phone,

[00:58:16] I think did trigger this turn to the dark side of Jean. And I think part of it is this really is his Anakin's Skywalker episode. Yeah, and I think part of it is whatever happened in that interaction or non interaction with her, it did trigger this memory of.

[00:58:37] You know, some of his happiest times were scamming with her and he goes back to those kinds of scams, not he can't go back to Saul Goodman lawyer sleaziness. He goes right back to the the Kim style scam against the same kind of victim.

[00:58:56] But as you say, it's the it's the dark side of the force this time. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about the call. Sorry, let me just add I forgot one point. Sorry to interrupt. I wondered when Kim called and said is Saul alive?

[00:59:21] I wonder if she was still wondering about Lalo. Because, you know, Mike says, Lalo's not coming back, but he came back once before. So I wonder if as Saul does, if as Saul did, she's not quite sure. Yeah, I mean, but also like if I'm still totally not

[00:59:41] super clear on what the public knows and everything. But it seems like if this cab driver, Jeff, is going looking for Saul Goodman, then it must have all been pretty public. So they know that this guy was they know about Walter White,

[00:59:57] you know, that he was making a bunch of meth and then got killed. And maybe they even know that 2D agents got killed and that Saul Goodman disappeared. They know he disappeared. So she could be wondering about Lalo,

[01:00:13] but Lalo, but she also just knows that he was involved in a big show here and people are dead and he's gone, you know? Yeah, I think you're right. I think it would have been public knowledge that he disappeared.

[01:00:25] Yeah. OK, I'm going to talk about this call with with Francesco, which in season four, they did that quick flash forward to Saul grabbing a bunch of money to get relocated. And he told Francesco to be at this pay phone on November 12th at 3 p.m.

[01:00:44] And there were theories about it being to receive a call from Kim on his birthday. No, it was just so Saul could check in on things, which is a pretty elaborate setup, but he wanted to know how hot it is.

[01:01:00] And I guess testing the possibility of coming back or maybe just to check how much in danger he is. And and also maybe to try to get some more money. Get more. Yeah, he's really interested in the money. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, before this episode,

[01:01:19] I've been trying to think that maybe Jimmy has no. I mean, wondering maybe Jimmy has no one left to fear and and could maybe come out of hiding. And I was like, why exactly did he go into hiding? What the public know?

[01:01:31] And I was going to go back and look on more details of what exactly prompted him to go undercover. But it's made clear in this episode that people are still after him, probably the feds. And, you know, she says that Walt is dead. Jesse's gone.

[01:01:52] And so he's the only real key player that the DEA has left to go after. So that's good enough for me. He can't go back. He can't go public again. And yeah, it seemed like he's looking for money. He's upset that his offshore accounts are gone and everything.

[01:02:09] And I was like, is there something he's trying to do that he needs money for? And, you know, the writer Tom Schnauz on the podcast said he doesn't need money because he has the diamonds. But he was really asking about that even before the conversation with Kim.

[01:02:25] I mean, this all this whole conversation with Francesca is before that. Maybe he just likes money and he doesn't like to see the money that he worked hard for slipping away. It doesn't doesn't mean that he needs it for anything.

[01:02:39] Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a point of pride for him, I think. Wouldn't you leave the country? Like he can never go back in public ever again. Like figure out what country doesn't have extradition and go there. That's yeah, that's a good point.

[01:02:54] I mean, maybe he did stay behind hoping that he could rekindle something with Kim. But he should totally do that now if he can find a way to get out. Or that's the service that Vacuum Cleaner Guy provided. But maybe if he had enough money,

[01:03:11] he could actually go somewhere else where he could live. Oh, I see. Yeah, maybe wanting to funnel money from those shell businesses that he had to be able to do that or something and knowing that it's those resources are gone. And I'm willing to bet.

[01:03:25] I know that he had that big stash of cash that he took with him before he was vacuumed away. But I don't know how much it was for him. I know it was uber expensive for Walt because he was super hot, right?

[01:03:40] But I don't know that we heard how much it was for Jimmy. So I don't know how much of his cash had to go to give to the Vacuum Guy to pay for that. We did hear when he was at the mall

[01:03:50] and he was gonna go back and do it again. I thought we heard. And I can't remember the cost. I don't remember either, but he said it was gonna be double because yeah. It's gonna be hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know that much. Yeah, so.

[01:04:03] But he has those diamonds. So who knows how much those were worth? We also learn a lot from Francesca. We learned that Skyler got a plea deal, Walt's wife. Sticked the deal in the trade for the location of Steve and Hank. Remember that from Breaking Bad?

[01:04:23] The DEI, yeah, yeah. We learned that Jesse's car was found at the border and we saw why in the Breaking Bad movie El Camino, I think Badger drove it down there to throw off the police. Because he's escaped to Alaska.

[01:04:39] And that also tells us that this is the furthest we've seen in the Breaking Bad Bader Coleslaw universe because El Camino was the furthest to that point, but now that's in the past. So we're at the furthest. Probably my favorite, we learned Hewlett's back in New Orleans.

[01:04:54] That was, I needed that closure with Hewlett. Someone needs to get away. To know that he got out of that room. Because for people who don't remember or know, well, Francesca says on this call, the DEI held him under false pretenses or something.

[01:05:10] So last I heard he walked. And near the end of Breaking Bad, Hank and Gomi, the DEA agents took Hewlett to the safe house and they were trying to scare him into telling them where Walt's money was. And they lied and told him that Walt was killing everyone

[01:05:25] connected to this crime that they committed together and showed him a fake picture and said it was Jesse with his brains blown out. And Hewlett started freaking out and told them where the money was. And they left to get it and said,

[01:05:37] you stay right here and don't leave the safe house or use your cell phone or anything. And then they both got killed. So we're like, Hewlett stuck in the safe house. I speculate for years, Hewlett's still sitting there. Yeah, but now- Like Gendry's still wrong.

[01:05:56] They should team up. All the money laundering operations have been seized, the nail salons, the laser tag. He like, Saul had tried to get Walt to launder money through that laser tag. Laser tag? So good. Francesca doesn't know where Kubi is.

[01:06:15] That's Bill Burr, one of Saul's henchmen played by Bill Burr. And he asks about Danny and we never saw Danny on screen but he ran the laser tag, laser base. And Saul said he would look the other way to, you know,

[01:06:32] keep on going with his dream of running a laser tag and then Walt could launder money. And- Do you know who Danny really was? Yeah, Tom Schnauz on the podcast mentioned that he said, and we mentioned Danny who, oh no, it wasn't an interview.

[01:06:45] And we mentioned Danny who in my head was always Mark Proch character Daniel Wormald. Baseball card guy, Christ. Yeah, baseball card guy. It's the guy who read the laser tag. He wanted to get Danny in, but I know me too.

[01:06:59] I wish he could have gotten it in somehow. That's so funny. He asks her how she's doing and she makes some sarcastic comment about being married to a prince or something. Prince Rainier, distinguished. And I'm like, he gave her three big wads of cash

[01:07:17] but maybe that was just like $20,000 or something and it wasn't really enough to make a big difference in her life because we see she's got some shitty rental management job or something. And yeah, that Kim asked about him. And I was kinda wondering if he was asking her

[01:07:33] for all this news and kid prompting her just in case there was something with Kim that he was, but I don't think so. The way Bob Odenkirk was playing it, he just seemed like he wanted to connect with his old life, you know?

[01:07:46] It was reminiscent for me in Breaking Bad when, oh and I'm terrible. Yeah, I know he's got a name and I'm terrible. The vacuum cleaner guy. When he came back to visit Walt after Walt had been up there for so long and isolated all alone,

[01:08:04] wasn't allowed to leave or go to town and talk to anyone. And when he came up to deliver some newspapers and deliver supplies and he was like bribing him to stay with him to like stay with me and play cards,

[01:08:13] that to me is what Saul was doing here with Francesca, like pleading with her like you said that connection. And it was very parallel for me. And he's all, well I guess that's it, goodbye. No, she didn't say goodbye. She's saying I guess that's goodbye click.

[01:08:32] He just wanted that connection. He wanted, he'd been so isolated and lonely in this gene life and he was just kind of wanting some of that old, and a connection with someone I think because it was lonely and also obviously to have that connection with someone he knew.

[01:08:50] But he's looking for it from the wrong person. Ed was the vacuum cleaner guy. Thank you, it's terrible. I know Robert Forster was the actor, RIP. Oh, he was so great. So great and yeah, but his name escaped me, thank you.

[01:09:05] So just one other thing to add about all this, it's really a theme throughout both shows, this losing of the fortune that's been made through blood, sweat and tears. So in one case, Skyler gave away all of their money to pay Benikey's tax bill,

[01:09:27] which leads to all kinds of other things. And then there's Saul and Walt to some degree having to pay all their money to escape and that costing them all kinds of money. And this just seems to come up over and over again,

[01:09:46] there's Mike's money which got taken by the feds because the secret bank numbers were on the back of the picture that Gus had had. So that leads to all kinds of trouble because all of their guys lost their hazard pay. So this is a continuous theme.

[01:10:09] I think didn't Jack and his guys get a bunch of Walt's money in those big barrels, can't remember exactly. They did, they got some of that. I think they left Walt one barrel, they took the other three or something. Yeah, that's right.

[01:10:27] And then he was rolling it all the way home across the desert. Okay, I just went, Rima. I wanna talk a little bit more about Breaking Bad, Jimmy style or Saul or Jean. Whoever this new evolvement of this character is. I thought it was,

[01:10:51] seeing how dark he was going in this episode was shocking to me. You called that out earlier, Jason. It was kind of jarring because Saul was definitely pretty sleazy. He definitely had moments where he's just casually throwing out like, well, we should just kill this guy. Problem solved.

[01:11:07] Not great, not a great look, but still some things you could find a like about him. But at this point, his practice has gone, his assets have been seized, Kim has gone and he's a wanted criminal that Francesca confirmed. And it's almost like why not break bad again?

[01:11:29] And I think he's got this mindset that he would rather go out swinging than going out with a whimper, in my opinion. I think he's, you know, it's- He has this fucking attitude sometimes. Yeah. Just on a big grand scale right now. Right, and David, you mentioned it,

[01:11:52] like all the risks that he's taking, which are, I feel unlike what we would see either Jimmy do or Saul do. I mean, Saul definitely took risks in, but he was informed risk and he knew kind of when to call it.

[01:12:08] Jimmy knew when maybe it was time to shut down a scam if the risk was worth it. Saul was kind of a coward. Yeah, yeah, good point. I mean, he took some risks, but he always tried to run the other way when there was danger.

[01:12:20] Saving his own skin for sure. He was always worried about number one there. But it's, you know, he's definitely pushing it here. And I'm like, you know, he's got this kind of fuck all attitude and maybe he's thinking getting locked up would be better than living

[01:12:42] as the Cinnabon manager and hiding, you know? It's obviously not fulfilling for him. And maybe he thinks that, you know, it's worth the risk. And it's sad to see how he's kind of lost his empathy for people, especially people with cancer.

[01:12:57] And I'm thinking is that because of Walt? I know you guys mentioned that earlier. Like, is it because of Walt? That's dark. And you said it maybe he's thinking that, but and I think possibly it's just beyond thinking too. It's just reactive, you know?

[01:13:13] It's just like coming from the gut versus the logical brain. Good point. Yeah, good point. And you know, talking about parallels, this is what was so again, another I thought brilliant way to kind of have these parallels between what we saw in Better Call Saul and in this,

[01:13:34] or I'm sorry, the Breaking Bad episode of Better Call Saul. And then in this episode of titled Breaking Bad. Better Call Saul called Breaking Bad. I know, I'm totally getting it mixed up. I know what I'm trying to say, but it sounds very confusing

[01:13:47] since they're titled the same. But in both instances, Saul or Jean is worried about staying away. He was warned in the flashback about Mike warning him to like, don't mess with Walt. Like, Mike gave the whole like premise of Breaking Bad

[01:14:09] in just like a few minutes of, you know, like how bad this was and gave him this warning. Saul went forward with it anyway and we saw how it went down. It did not go well for him at all. He got warned to not pursue this scam

[01:14:24] with the guy with cancer, which does not leave me good feelings at all about how this might end up. I think it just means trouble. Because we're seeing a repetitive pattern and if it goes to its conclusion, but he's even darker than he's ever been.

[01:14:40] So the consequences could be even worse. Right, and they showed that brilliantly with that cut of the episode where Saul gets out of his car, shuts the door and he's going into the school to confront Walt and that cut from him going to the cancer guys house.

[01:14:59] You know, kind of- It's like starting down the journey of darkness. Yeah, cause that was essentially him meeting up with Walt and confronting him and proposing this. And I've said it before and I still this episode seeing this other side

[01:15:16] and giving this context to that Breaking Bad episode where you see the flip side of things. You see the context of what else is happening that we didn't get to see that I've wholeheartedly, it really does show you how Jimmy or Saul was the architect of Walter White.

[01:15:32] You know, Mike plainly said, "'This dude's small potatoes. He's on no one's radar. We don't give a crap about him." They were goofy. You pointed out earlier how they were goofy. They were operating out of a freaking RV. So much inept. Yeah.

[01:15:47] And Saul is the one that pushed him into- Amplified and enabled him. Yeah, like dude, I can get you connections. I can represent you. I can make sure you keep the money that you have and it just went from there. And if he would have listened to Mike

[01:16:03] then Mike might still be alive too. Maybe, maybe. And I think that's true at first. I also think Walt outgrew him pretty quickly. Yeah. So he needed the help and the sophistication early. But then as he grew in both violence

[01:16:20] and understanding of the business and all those things, he comes to control the relationship after a while. I only met Lydia so that helped Gus. Yeah, but I mean before that even, it was by the time he had killed Gus, he RV was telling Saul like,

[01:16:37] you're out when I say you're out. Yeah. Not the other way around. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, they were saying that like, because they had Brian Cranston and Aaron Paul, they had to film this in April of last year 2021 because that was the only time they could get them together.

[01:16:56] And they hadn't of course written the episode yet but they had to just write that part then. And they said that it was such a thrill to have them back and also that Brian Cranston, they had to say a couple of times,

[01:17:08] you remember your season two while not like Heisenberg, you guys are idiots right now or not. And I'm paraphrasing but he was playing it a little bit too like in charge at first. But in this episode, I think it was interesting

[01:17:22] because I feel like Saul only ever saw this gene persona as temporary, this ironing hiding kind of moment that he's unable to suppress who he really is because he's never dealt with losing Chuck. He's never or Chuck dying, I should say, he's never dealt with Kim leaving him.

[01:17:45] And then of course with what happened to Howard, he's never dealt with any of that. He just kept shoving it down and pushing it down. So these things just kind of keep rising to the surface and I feel like that's something is like going to bubble

[01:18:01] and really happen and maybe explode. So I liked all of that. And you mentioned the transition from the grave that they dug in the other episode, I think that also kind of represented how Saul buried himself when he partnered up with them. I think it could be foreshadowing

[01:18:24] but this was kind of like this is that moment. It was like the beginning of the death of Saul. Yeah, yeah. Saul the character. Yeah, right. And also something I think that was interesting in this episode was Marion is getting suspicious

[01:18:40] and I mentioned it before that I think she might be the key to something happening. Seems almost certain otherwise why show her noticing that he's being an asshole? Well, she's got her- And also giving her the tools to Google. Say she's got her fancy new laptop,

[01:18:55] check-offs laptop, I'm calling it. Thanks to Saul teaching her how to do it. Right, she's gonna Google something besides Fenty Cat videos and I think Jimmy's gonna regret showing her how to use this search. And she mentioned that Jeffy came from a rough crowd in Albuquerque.

[01:19:13] She's worried about him going back to that. Yeah, and she's getting suspicious of Jean. They're really setting up the dominoes for her to have some kind of an impact. Absolutely, Francesca said to Saul, don't you have internet? You know, we learned he's still very much wanted

[01:19:27] and hot and she might find something. It's probably gonna be popping right up there on the screen and it would, I think, be so ironic to have an elderly person be the one to take him down. Yeah, because we started out in elder care law. Yeah, yeah.

[01:19:43] Yes, that would be very symmetrical and very clever. Yeah, so I think they just did a really good job of kind of showing us that he's definitely become a bad person and we're supposed to see that. We're supposed to be like, OK, yeah, we don't like him now,

[01:20:00] which makes me really sad because it feels like it is going to be kind of tragic. And so I don't know how I'm handling that. I like Jimmy McGill way more than I ever liked Walter White. I love watching Walter White as a character,

[01:20:13] but feeling like that's my bro is how I feel about Jimmy McGill. Yeah. And so I still hope, man, can you have some redemption in the end? I really hope he can. Hope so. David. So I wanted to talk about William Oakley and associates.

[01:20:35] This is a very better call, Saul, and welcome comic relief in all the ways that this episode was very dark and a lot of other ways. So there's nothing that really happens involving him, but this is the guy who was the sort of self-righteous

[01:20:54] small time petty kind of prosecutor guy that was the foil for both Kim and Saul all those years. And self-righteous, I mean, he scolded Saul after the whole incident with Lalo and Lalo's seven million dollar bail. He said, you scammed the court and, you know,

[01:21:15] there's proving and there's knowing. And so he had this whole, you know, moralistic thing towards Saul. But now I think it's very clear that he has seen a market opportunity. Now that Saul Goodman is out of the picture and there is room.

[01:21:32] Yes, there is room in the market for this defense lawyer to take that spot and to be the guy who advertises on TV and all this stuff. The funny part is the whole thing's kind of pathetic. I mean, this guy has nowhere near the talent or charisma

[01:21:50] of a Jimmy McGill Saul Goodman. And he is not presumably, quote unquote, a criminal lawyer, which is what that whole population wants. So I don't know if we're going to get any more from him. But but I loved it. It just kind of cracked me up.

[01:22:09] Now they're spin off. Maybe I don't know if that guy's interesting enough. Yeah, it's getting. It kind of brought home to me also. And this is definitely from my perspective as a sports fan, but how much poorer the Albuquerque criminal scene has become.

[01:22:30] So it used to be like this all star team of Walt, Jesse, Saul, Tio Salamanca, Ermentraut, Lalo, Gus Fring. I mean, it's the all stars like these larger than life characters. Tuko and now like now we're left with William Oakley.

[01:22:52] I mean, it's just sad and and to carry that analogy out a little further. Saul is kind of like Shoeless Joe Jackson, who got banned from baseball after the Black Sox scandal. And then like 20 years later, he's playing in the miners

[01:23:07] in these terrible little towns after he he gained 50 pounds. But just he loves the game. He's trying to hang on like that's all now. Like he's not in the big leagues anymore, but he's still hanging on doing his sort of little schemes.

[01:23:22] I mean, Coby's got to come in and fill that vacuum. Yeah. And the guy who was in the Grand Theft Auto game that I always forget his name that played Simon on Walking Dead. Stephen, Steve and I, yeah, yeah. Maybe he could join Coby and start something.

[01:23:43] Yeah, there we go. You know, a new generation of superstars will come along at some point. Yeah, got to build the team back up. Yeah. It's kind of like how when a show like this comes along that I am totally

[01:23:57] in love with and then it's over and I'm like, man, TV is never going to be this good again. And then invariably something good comes out. So let's have hope once better calls all over. Yeah, but it's going to be sad when it is. Yeah. Heck, yes.

[01:24:13] Um, so Bill Oakley, he there was a website on his bench there. It's Oakley for the number four defense law dot com. And it's an actual websites and there's a really long and boring about statement there, which I won't read. But I did like one part.

[01:24:34] It says Mr. Oakley believes all cases, however small and all clients, however unsympathetic are deserving of his representation. Thanks. It's funny like that. Yeah, the voice message I did call that number and it was like equally as boring wasn't super fascinating. It wasn't funny.

[01:24:53] It was just kind of mundane. But yeah, it did that number did work. Yeah, I think that's the joke with him. He's the anti-soul. He's just this boring unimaginative guy. He did definitely did not have a great catch line like better call soul, you know, by any means.

[01:25:12] So yeah. But it was fun to watch him with with Jimmy as a foil because he had different shades to him. Sometimes he seemed envious and curious and smarmy and all of that. It was fun to watch. Oh, yeah, for sure. But he's no soul.

[01:25:31] OK, I'm going to talk about this game that Jimmy does because he had that call, presumably with Kim seemed very upset. Then back at the Cinnabon seems miserable. Then he's over it, Jeff's with his mother. And my first thought, which was really dumb, was, oh, I was wrong.

[01:25:51] He did stay friends with Mary and that's cool. He needs friends right now. But no, he doesn't give a shit about her. He's just using her. Remember, you had to implement an entire scam just to meet her. Yeah.

[01:26:03] But I at the end of that, like on last week's episode, I was thinking, you know, Jimmy does is not connected with anyone. He's only connected with Kim. And I'm like, I don't think he's going to stay friends with these people

[01:26:15] that like the security guys back at the mall. I don't think he's ever going to see them again either. It's not going to keep bringing Cinnabons over to that guy. But I love that Jimmy's the one to go back to Jeff after saying they're done. That was cool.

[01:26:31] And I also love that Jimmy ends up using Jeff who was hassling him and seemed intimidating and ends up his henchmen. And it's sort of a parallel to what he did with Walton Jesse. You know, they they had him gagged and tied up and threatened to kill him.

[01:26:50] And he ended up their lawyer. So that's kind of a parallel there. And then the whole scam was finding rich guys at bars, befriending them, getting them drunk, having Jeff drug them, which is really dark, considering he drugged Howard and then tape their door

[01:27:05] and go in and get all their bank information and passwords and steal their money. And he's just he's just a criminal now. And. Yeah, I guess we kind of talked about a lot, but I love the montage to of him doing more scams with guys.

[01:27:22] And there's the song, Tappyoka Tundra by the monkeys playing. And I don't know if I'd ever heard it before, but it's a beautiful song. And Tom Schnauz mentioned that there was another monkey song back in season five. And he and Mickey Dolan's came to the.

[01:27:42] Studio or whatever, to the right writer's room. And he ends up being friends with Tom Schnauz and went to his wedding and everything. So wow. But yeah, the whole like Saul at the strip club and then there's this string of sex workers he's with.

[01:27:59] And I especially like the shot where you see him in bed looking up at the camera with this sort of far away look in his eye. And there's a sex worker next to him and she fades away. And then there's another one that fades in and out.

[01:28:12] And then another is very artful. It was a very artful episode. I also wanted to mention that Brandy, your fine girl is one of Karen's favorite songs. And we decided that may have been ruined forever. We're not sure. Oh, no. It was sad because he's horrible at karaoke.

[01:28:34] And of course it brings up the scene when he got chucked to sing that Abba song, a winner winner takes it all, which was a very sort of moving scene because you didn't see them connecting on that level very much. And this is like the opposite.

[01:28:48] I did love the symmetry of that initial version of the scam being dependent on letting the other guy. I think he was scamming him. Mm hmm. Like this worst scammer ever is scamming like the best ever. Yeah, it's funny to think that with all those stupid bets.

[01:29:07] Yeah, I need to think that they could actually pull one over on Slip and Jimmy. Yeah, that's how those scams work a lot. You pretend not to be any good at pool and then until the bets get real high than you run the table. It's a hustler.

[01:29:18] Did you recognize? I did not. But did anyone recognize the first guy, the bully from the the opener there? I read about it later. Yeah, Buzz from Home Alone. I didn't feel so bad for that guy. He was horrible. Yeah, terrible guy. His name, I can't find it.

[01:29:44] Yeah, it's cool. OK, so one more about the future. And as we've said, with this relapse, I'm more worried that this is going to be a full on tragedy. And. Yeah, I think Rima's I mean, you were right about marrying and. Also.

[01:30:10] In the Breaking Bad time frame that we see in this episode, Mike tries to convince Jimmy not to work with Walt and calls him an amateur and says, let it go. And then Mike starts telling about this other guy who got busted and did

[01:30:24] his time and didn't rat on his team and says he's a solid guy and we should work with him. And this is a contrast to Walt and. But as we know, Jimmy Jimmy's reckless and later in the gene time frame,

[01:30:37] Jimmy fires Jeff's partner Buddy and calls him an amateur. He says, since you're such a goddamn amateur, I'll tell you anyway, keep your mouth shut. And so I'm like, maybe this is another reckless move.

[01:30:49] Maybe Buddy will rat Saul out or maybe Marion will get the information out of Buddy. You know, I think that might that's my guess that Marion gets finds out what's going on from Buddy. And I also wonder if Buddy's dog will play into seems like, you know,

[01:31:04] bringing your dog to all these houses might not be such a great idea. It might shed or something boy ever. Yeah, good dog. Yeah. Good dog, dumb owner. That happens a lot. He was good to his dog, though, but yeah, I think it might get him in trouble.

[01:31:24] OK, let's get into notes, Rima. Oh, goodness. This this episode was definitely like a multiverse of madness episode for me with all the tie ins from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. It was super trippy in this episode to hear the name Skyler White mentioned in the series.

[01:31:44] That was weird. Hearing Jesse bring up Lalo. Just yeah, bizarre for me. It was just so weird to see all of like our worlds mixing. It was just strange for me. Fun, but strange. I think it's worth noting that November the 12th when he had

[01:32:07] Francesca or be at that pay phone whenever he referenced, hey, be at this pay phone on this date and we're all like, oh, what's going to happen? That sells birthday. And I think according to this timeline, if I'm correct,

[01:32:21] this was Jean's 50th birthday, which was also when Walt broke bad was on his 50th birthday. That's cool. Yeah. See, getting to see Mike was good. This was like full like Breaking Bad Mike. You know, I thought we were kind of done with Mike and thought we were

[01:32:43] like may not see him again. And I think I was OK with that, but this was we got Mike again, but it was not the better call Saul Mike in my opinion. This was Breaking Bad Mike. So that was really cool.

[01:32:55] And I love that banter between him and Saul because it was funny that interaction, you know, Saul's just like, just tell me now. Tell me now he's giving himself that self massage there in the office and and he's rattling off all these things to Mike and Mike's

[01:33:08] looking at him like, dude, I watched you drink pee in the desert, you know, so yeah, I love their interactions together. Getting to see the Aztec again in the parking lot at the school is so good. Jesse saying Dick, I think. Cheered my temporary depression. Love the dog.

[01:33:33] The trauma on Saul's face when Jesse asked about Lalo, it's like, who's Lalo and just that look. And that silence. Yeah, I think he's like nobody. Yeah, change the subject. Yeah, that that just moment when his head turned that trauma was written

[01:33:49] all over his face and you can see how that's really. Stuck with him. And now we get that context now that we've had the whole series of Better Call Saul and we get all that context. It just I loved it.

[01:34:00] Just totally flushes out these two episodes in these series so beautifully. And even like like I kind of said earlier, though. We we had all the context already, but adding that little moment

[01:34:14] where you get to see Saul struggling in the RV on the way over and freaking out. Even added to it anymore, even more because then it makes sense that he is thinking this has something to do with Lalo.

[01:34:26] And it's the first thing he says when they push him out, you know? Yes. Yeah, it made so much more sense. I love seeing how easy Brian Cranston slid right back into the early days of Walter White.

[01:34:40] You know, you mentioned that how they were like, hey, think of season this is season two, Walter White. It's not like Heisenberg because I think we forget like how goofy they especially Walt was in the first couple of seasons.

[01:34:52] We definitely lost a lot of that in the in the latter seasons of. Yeah, both Jesse and because the show for anyone who hasn't watched and we got a few of them out there, you know, breaking bad

[01:35:05] progressively got darker and darker, and we lost some of that goofiness in the last couple of seasons of Breaking Bad. Yeah, it would be like if, you know, how Better Call Saul has gotten really dark lately. But Breaking Bad got dark like that earlier

[01:35:22] and the last couple of seasons were pretty dark. Yes, absolutely. So it was good to see how masterful Brian Cranston. I love I'm a big Brian Cranston fan. I just think he's brilliant and of course, loved him so much in the role

[01:35:35] of Walter White thought he was just absolutely brilliant. Just a beautiful performance and I think perfect. And of course, so many people on the show as well. I'm better called Saul as well equally as good.

[01:35:46] But it was great to see him how easy he just slid right back into it. And I, you know, he just did great. Aaron Paul was great too, as Jesse. And that is it. That's all I got. Cool, David.

[01:36:04] Yeah, just to go back again to this Breaking Bad episode, which I forgot how good it was. I mean, there was a lot of goodness packed into that episode. And specifically just for Saul, who has been, you know, the central character

[01:36:21] of this entire show, he hit the ground running. I mean, he just had some great dialogue in in that show. So we first see him, he comes in, you know, to to meet with his client Badger and the cop who arrested Badger is in there.

[01:36:39] He says, what are you doing talking to my client without me present? You sneaky Pete, which is which because it's a really young looking cop. He says, what did the Academy hire you right out of the womb? There are laws, detective.

[01:36:51] Have your kindergarten teacher read him to you. Go grab a juice box, get an app. Go. I mean, that's the very first lines that we ever said. Me so good. As you started to go into it, but it seems like he's going to like lay it out

[01:37:06] for Badger like how to act in court or something. But it's just this long speech about all the different ways he can pay him. Yeah, he says after that we can discuss these are a mastercard, but not American Express. Don't even ask. And then.

[01:37:24] Incredible scene where Walter White and Saul first meet. So Walt goes into the office, you know, playing this character of Mr. Mayhew Badger's uncle and he but he doesn't want to be really seen or recognized. So he goes in wearing like shades and a baseball cap

[01:37:43] from the Albuquerque isotopes and so looks up and sees him and says, well, look at you. Should I call the FBI and all my found DB Cooper? And then he says he asks him if he's English or Irish. And Walt says Irish, he says, ah, fellow potato eater,

[01:38:02] my real name is McGill, the Jew thing I just do for the homeboys. They all want a pipe hitting member of the tribe, so to speak. I mean, it's so bad. It's terrible, but God. But it's funny when he's they're kidnapping him, he says to Jesse,

[01:38:17] take that ski mask off. I feel like I'm talking to the weather underground here. Just great lines. And then, of course, the one you cited at the end where he says, so if you want to make more money and keep the money that you make, better call Saul.

[01:38:34] And that's the end of the episode. But I think it's his best collection of dialogue in any episode of either show. And that episode, Peter Gold, you know, who's the co-show owner of better call Saul? He wrote the episode of better call Saul of Breaking Bad.

[01:38:54] It was his third episode of television ever and a second time ever on a TV set. Got it. Oh, my God. The freaking part. Tour de force. I mean, it's scary how brilliant they are and how they've done this. And what a marriage of script, actor and character.

[01:39:11] Like that dialogue that Peter Gold wrote and and Bob Odenkirk and Saul, like just perfect marriage. And yeah, the only other for me is a couple of bold predictions for the future. I do agree with you both. I think Marianne will uncover Saul's identity

[01:39:33] and that will lead to some trouble. I'm going to make the bold prediction that next week's episode is all about Ken that we're going to get some back story of not only what she's doing now, but like what happened to her and some stuff in between.

[01:39:49] Could be completely wrong, but that's my bold prediction. A full I would not be mad. Now you've raised our hopes. Yeah, I was going to say, I would not be mad about that at all. God, I love her so much.

[01:40:02] And then lastly, just to mention the joy of that we're now on a part of the story where we have no idea what's going to happen. Like mostly up until now, we've known the ultimate outcome for the main characters and now we don't. So I think it's fun.

[01:40:15] Yeah, that's a good point. Scary. Yeah, there's no more plot armor. Yeah. No more plot armor. It could be a nuclear war in the next episode. Could be. All right. Let's see. Well, what's your take on what they've been doing with the opening title lately, David?

[01:40:36] I'm not really sure. I mean, I've heard it described as blue screen of death, but it looks more to me like a like a VHS tape going bad. Yeah, or maybe it's the end of the recorded material like saws over or something like that could be.

[01:40:53] And I kind of felt it was like a callback to his commercials. But I'm not really sure. I don't know either. I think this one showed a rocking chair, though, which may be a Marion thing. Gotcha. I'm not sure, though. I don't know.

[01:41:08] Any anything to add, Rima, about that? No, I think we talked about it in the last episode. To me, it's just like this indicator that we've kind of gone beyond the better call saw timeline and it's kind of that stopping point.

[01:41:25] It's like, oh, we don't have anything or anywhere to go from here because we're like in like quote unquote the present or whatever. Yeah. Our future for this point in the timeline. Yeah. I like how, you know, when we were introduced to the character of Jeff,

[01:41:41] you saw him looking back in his cab in the mirror. So you just see his eyes. It's like something out of Hitchcock, I feel like I'm not sure. But anyway, that's how we saw him a couple of times here,

[01:41:52] looking back at the victims of their scam and then looking back at Jimmy when they're going back to the guy with cancer's house. And that's a real contrast because the first time he looked back at Jimmy, it was like ominous who is this guy?

[01:42:08] Why is he staring at me? The second time it's like he's scared. Yeah, Jimmy. That's a good point. Yeah, definitely a switch from the last time they were in that position. Some funny lines. These two doofy guys renting a place from Francesca,

[01:42:24] who are basically badger and skinny P clones are we don't do drugs here. And she's like, mm hmm. You sleep past noon. You don't seem to have employment. Plus your whole place smells like a skunk's butthole. Poor Francesca.

[01:42:40] And then she tells them to they can plunge out the sink themselves because they know that, you know, the same thing you guys always do or whatever it was. I love that Jimmy tells Francesca to find the rock shape like New Jersey

[01:42:54] and these all, you know, Alfred Hitchcock in a fez. And I had to look and he's totally right. Never noticed that before. Let's see in the RV, looking at the meth flasks and stuff. Saul says it's like James Wales traveling road showing here.

[01:43:11] And I didn't know who that was. I looked him up. He's an old horror movie director like directed movies like Frankenstein, The Invisible Man and Bride of Frankenstein, which I presume had like, you know, mad scientist beakers bubbling over and stuff like that. I don't know.

[01:43:26] Yeah, of course he'd know that because they love their old movies. Yeah. I loved so much. I don't know why, but the comment in the RV where he says after they're having trouble with it, two free words of advice, Jiffy Lube. You're a solutions guy.

[01:43:45] And it made sense that he would think about that, but not Walter Jesse because he's the solutions guy. Walt is maybe too proud to outsource things sometimes or to seek help. Things he can handle himself and Jesse's just kind of a dumb ass, especially early on.

[01:44:02] They should have taken his advice. We saw what happened after that in four days out when they got stranded. So right. And on better call, Saul insider, I've already mentioned most of the things that they said, but a couple more.

[01:44:16] Tom Schnauz was pictured on one of those drivers licenses when they showed a whole bunch of them. I presume other crew members were too. I don't know. And they also, he said they had thought about doing this thing

[01:44:29] from the early days of creating better call Saul, where they would go back and forth between early times and breaking bad times like they did in this episode. But they decided to focus more on Jimmy's world.

[01:44:43] And I think that was the right move to just focus on developing Jimmy into Saul and then do this back and forth thing to show the pattern of his life. Early on, I would have wanted that, you know, because I love breaking

[01:44:56] bad so much, but I've come to love better call Saul in and of itself. So I'm glad that they really just let him let the show breathe on its own. All right. That is good. I'm glad we took a little extra time with this one

[01:45:12] because it was an important episode and it was so cool to see Walt and Jesse back and everything. But we'll take a little break. There is more to come. Stay with us. All right. OK, we're back. It's time for some news.

[01:45:52] OK, I just took a little bit from one article this week from Variety. This was an interview with Tom Schnauz and I know you were talking about him on the podcast, so hopefully I don't get too repetitive in what you've already mentioned.

[01:46:05] A couple questions first when they said, what was it like having Cranston and Paul back in character in the RV? He says it was a crazy time warp flashback. Everybody slipped back into it like we were doing it all along.

[01:46:21] Brian and Aaron got right back in the roles with very little direction needed before they got to Albuquerque. They asked for a review of where the characters heads were in this time frame. They went through a whole range of emotions over several seasons,

[01:46:32] and this is very specific to season two. I told him it was set in the world of season two episode eight between kidnapping and their Jimmy in and out scheme. Brian and Aaron were only available together at a certain time. We had a very small window.

[01:46:44] So even though this was episode 11, I had to ride away earlier and we shot it while Vince was shooting episode two. Our team recreated the RV set and put it on stage on airbags. So it wouldn't move.

[01:46:55] They said, was there always a plan for Cranston and Paul to appear in Better Call Saul? He said we didn't really have a plan. We didn't know for sure if we were going to bring back Walt and Jesse, part of the way of making ourselves feel better.

[01:47:07] If we hadn't done it was telling ourselves, Walt came back in El Camino with Jesse that exists. So if we don't get to it in Better Call Saul, that's okay. But I think we all desperately wanted them to come back at some point for some reason.

[01:47:20] We didn't know how or why, but finally when we got talking about these later episodes, we thought we should. The parallels between what Saul Goodman was going through when he chased after Walter White and when Gene is chasing after these scams he's doing in Omaha.

[01:47:34] It felt like a good time to flash back to those scenes and address the Lalo question. They also asked, because I've seen a lot of chatter about this too, they asked were there any conversations about de-aging them?

[01:47:48] And he said, there's only so much you can do before it starts looking ridiculous. We don't do a ton of de-aging on the show. There's a little bit of stuff on the guy's faces to take a few

[01:47:57] lines out here and there, but other than that, Aaron is not going to look like an 18 year old kid or however old Jesse was during this time period. Jean-Carlas Pizito, Jonathan Banks as you're watching Better Call Saul, you kind of forget how they looked back

[01:48:10] then until you start cutting scenes back and forth and you realize Jonathan who I would have imagined looks very much the same as he did in Breaking Bad looks very different in the scenes back to back. I do sort of dread people cutting this scene into the world

[01:48:24] of Breaking Bad and trying to match the way that they look then and now, but it's not something you can worry too much about. It is what it is. We're telling a story and you can roll with it or you can start picking at it.

[01:48:35] He looks much older than he did in the original scene. We decided to go for it and I'm glad we did. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. They like, yeah, they could not show any clips from before. No. Last one, they said we see so many different versions of Saul

[01:48:54] throughout the show. Jimmy, Jean and now Victor will we get a new persona of Saul in the final episodes? He said, I'm hopefully not giving anything away, but I feel like we see a whole new character at some point.

[01:49:05] There's a version in the future where Bob walks on screen and it looks different than we've ever seen him before. And it's great. Was he a clown or something? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe he just takes on this whole new character. It's not Saul. It's not Jimmy.

[01:49:23] I don't know. Cool. We'll get two more episodes to find out. So I know, I know. So we got to savor, savor those episodes. I'm really starting talking about it like out loud. And we're talking about like, and, you know, going back

[01:49:38] to like Breaking Bad and talking about how great it was and then how great this show was. And it's just really starting to hit me now that there's only a few more episodes. I'm about ready to start crying right now. Like honestly, it's very, very hard.

[01:49:51] So such a good freaking show. I know I cried so hard on Breaking Bad was over. I'm going to do the same for this one. Yeah. Anyway, that's all I've got for the news this week. Awesome. OK, let's do some listener feedback. Catcraft says squeals and grins.

[01:50:09] Smiley face and three heartface emojis. I think she liked this episode. Rita Catanella Orrell says, I thought it was artfully shot, but also such a depressing episode. I was happy to see Francesca had no chemis alive in Titusville. But I wanted more from the Walt Jesse stuff.

[01:50:30] Fair enough, that was an opinion I saw expressed by a lot of folks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I do think because this show has been so fun that if it does just end on a real tragic note that it could really. Turn a lot of people off.

[01:50:50] So we'll see what happens. Joanna Hetzler says, I hate to say it, but I'm not loving the gene section of the timeline. It's a little slow going. I'm just trusting the show runners to bring it all together in the end.

[01:51:02] I'm thankful for the podcast to help me understand and help me have a slight appreciation for these last two episodes. You're welcome. Danny Ward says, absolutely love your coverage of Better Call Saul. So sad to see it ending. One question from this week's excellent episode.

[01:51:20] How did Saul get that money to Francesca? Please help. It's driving me crazy. Love you guys. Hey, thanks. It's nice. How did Saul get that money to Francesca? What? What? I guess he left it there. Yeah, I think he's giving her a dead drop.

[01:51:40] Yeah, yeah, because he wanted to get her to give him a report. And that was the the carrot. Well, and we saw so many times that Francesca is like she just looked and glare like, well, I'm not doing it for free.

[01:51:53] You know, whatever task it is that he wanted her to do. So before he left town, he left the money there and told her to be there on a certain day to get that call

[01:52:01] knowing that he would tell her where it was and then he could get information out of her. I think that's what happened. Exactly, it was left as a dead drop in advance. Gijo Puthia says, first of all, I wanted to say I loved it.

[01:52:16] My complaint is something they can do nothing about. So it's not really fair to complain about LL. Jesse looks like he came out of Alaska to do this episode. He looks completely different to the point where my son asked at first if they used a different actor.

[01:52:30] It took me out of it and I desperately wanted to be in it. Still, as I mentioned, I loved it. Oh, and Heisenberg was on point look wise. Both of their acting was great, too. Yeah, Jesse's the one.

[01:52:42] They all look different, but Jesse's the one that looks the most different because he was such a skinny kid when this happened. And now he's a 42 year old man. Yeah, yeah. But it was nice that they used the hats to try to like, you know,

[01:52:58] not have to worry about like the bald cap from Walton, you know, to kind of use it as like a de-aging technique with the hat. So, you know. Yeah, I think of it as like, I mean, I always think about how in old Shakespearean

[01:53:13] times they would have men play women. So just kind of go with it. You just go with the flow. Sarah Hall says, while I'm enjoying watching Slip and Jimmy and all his glory over the last couple of episodes, I can't help but think, so what about it all?

[01:53:28] Why are we being shown this? What overall storytelling purpose does it serve? Can't wait to listen to this week's pod to help figure that out before we go on. Yeah, I hope I mean, to me, it's I mean, I think it's fun in and of itself

[01:53:41] and great TV, but also it really just helps illustrate. Jimmy's character in the way that we've been talking about this whole podcast. So hopefully that helped you figure out why they'd be talk showing this stuff and just we want to know how a story ends up too.

[01:54:00] She goes on, I was very confused about the indecipherable yelling in the phone box scene. I assume this means Gene and Kim are still very much in contact. A subreddit suggests that a German dub of this scene lets out a little more info,

[01:54:12] but I have yet to go check it out, not that my German is up to all that much anyway. I don't think they're in contact at all. This is the first time I think they've been in contact since we saw them together last.

[01:54:22] I also think that's the most interesting sentence anyone's ever written to us. A subreddit suggests that German dub of this scene, let's add a little more info. I'm good to check that out. Yeah, I'm intrigued. I think one of my the people who's

[01:54:41] one of my friends whose house I'm staying at right now, I'm in Belgium, by the way, which is why I'm trying to be a little more quiet because it's midnight and everyone's asleep. Actually, it's 2 a.m. But anyway, I think one of them may speak German.

[01:54:52] So maybe I can investigate that. Your mission should you choose to accept it? Yeah, inside knowledge. Gary J. Hewitt says, obviously, the big scene was with Walt and Jesse, but my favorite scene has to be with Saul and Mike.

[01:55:08] Felt like a proper breaking bad scene and ties everything nicely together. Saul, Guy with mustache probably doesn't make a lot of good life choices. A cut to Jean rocking a mustache after a multitude of bad choices. Ha, ha.

[01:55:21] Also, some of those sweet, sweet edit transitions were on point. I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah. After Jean's phone call with Kim, he seems to be chasing the hype and buzz of the scams they both used to enjoy, but he seems to be coming

[01:55:35] at it with a menacing Walter White attitude and not the personality of Jimmy. Saul, just look at how he speaks to Jeffy and Betty. It's how Walt would treat them. Totally. Oh, yeah. I think we definitely talked about the how he's getting his power hungry.

[01:55:49] Egotistical arrogance like Walter did and was making those same mistakes. So definitely, I think that's why this was so important to see it like we did. Yeah. I think he was channeling Walt more than he ever has in this episode,

[01:56:00] especially like you said, Gary, the way he was treating those two guys and the dog, he said, get that shut that dog up. Yeah, I did that. Lost it for me. Oh, don't it was like it reminded me of Walt to Lydia

[01:56:14] where he says you're a good businesswoman. You understand the concept of leverage. You have none. And then it goes on to threaten her life to make him do something. Yeah, from Diana Driscoll. Man, what a great episode. It's interesting that the Walt Jesse episode aired the same week.

[01:56:31] Aaron Paul had a fantastic episode of Westworld. Interesting. Does me something to go watch. Love seeing Francesca again. Didn't think that would happen. Glad she got a sack of cash for all her troubles. Her epilogue info is great

[01:56:46] because it means we're in uncharted Breaking Bad Better Call Saul territory. It's post Walter's final moment in the finale and post Jesse getting away in El Camino. I'm so curious what Jimmy's endgame is. Is he self sabotaging?

[01:57:01] Is he gathering that cash for an altruistic purpose, perhaps for Kim? Or can he truly not help himself? And he is who he is. Ding ding ding ding. Yeah, love the interspersing of the Breaking Bad timeline with the current day. The themes and the parallels are amazing.

[01:57:17] How awesome was that interaction between Saul and Mike in his office? Absolutely. And what an amazing reveal. Saul is the reason for it all. Mike recommended staying away from Walter and Saul is the one that pushed for the whole thing. Can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts. Cool.

[01:57:37] Bryson Wolfe says it was really good. The timelines are really coming together. The RV scene would have been way cooler if they could have somehow kept the news of Brian Cranston and Aaron Paul making an appearance secret.

[01:57:49] But as soon as they showed, Saul tied up in the RV and the bullet holes covered in duct tape, I knew when and where he was. It was really cool to see another perspective of the night they kidnapped and hired Saul Goodman.

[01:58:01] Also really cool how in Breaking Bad that was Saul Goodman's first appearance in the episode was called Better Call Saul and this was Jesse and Walt's first appearance in Better Call Saul in the episode was called Breaking Bad. So many callbacks in the RV scene.

[01:58:13] Attorney client privilege for a dollar, which he got from Kim when she made Jimmy give her a dollar for their attorney client privilege. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Jesse calling Walt out for letting Saul see their faces outside the RV in Breaking Bad after Walt and Saul.

[01:58:27] Walt said Saul was on a need to know basis. Yeah, I like that part too. The beginning of their scheme to get Badger out of jail and pin it on another fall guy. Of course, the famous throw away line of it was Ignacio.

[01:58:40] Amazing what that one line ended up turning into. I'm sure there's tons of other callbacks and I'm sure someone will eventually edit all the Breaking Bad Better Call Saul scenes together. Then the transition of the empty grave in the desert to Gene laying on his bed.

[01:58:53] Obviously symbolizing Gene is dead and Saul is back. That's another take. The Jeff slash Saul scheme of stealing identities was really good too. I have a feeling Marion seeing the guys meeting up in her garage at night is going to lead

[01:59:08] to the identity theft scheme getting Jeff and Saul into some legal trouble. Or who knows, maybe she will want in on it. Overall a really good episode. I can't wait to see what the show brings in the penultimate episode. It's Bryson. Yeah, that was great.

[01:59:23] Hopefully Kim in the penultimate episode. Rinaldi Klikstis says I'm enjoying episode 611 Breaking Bad because it's kept me on the edge of my seat. I'm wondering has Jimmy as Gene Tachovic entered a situation he cannot talk himself out of? One could argue Jimmy is a gambling addict.

[01:59:43] There are three character flaws Jimmy has that make him take stupid risks like when he and Iris stole those figurines from Nep copiers. Mike said no to helping with that job like he did to Saul suggesting adding Walter White as a client.

[01:59:56] And I love how the writers have weaved this idea together throughout these past six seasons. Number one, Jimmy has a cynical view of humanity to avoid confronting his mixture of guilt and remorse for his actions. In his mind, there are wolves and sheep.

[02:00:09] Right and wrong are illusions to mask the harshness of the world. Appeals to morality are just angles that are used to manipulate others or ridiculous deceptions naive people tell themselves. Check represented the former idea and Howard the latter idea. Number two, Jimmy doubles down in scamming

[02:00:26] when faced with personal tragedy or setbacks. He makes excuses for this bad habit. Jimmy is Gene learning from Francesca this episode that his assets and contacts as Saul are gone, which references the cold open for season six where his personal possessions are compensated is another setback. Trash. Yeah.

[02:00:44] Yep. The biggest setback tragedy for Jimmy is Kim getting into a heated conversation with Jimmy as Gene, which was covered by truck noises. This reminded me of Howard's talk with Jimmy about no job openings at HHM being covered by the noises from copying machines in printers. Oh yeah.

[02:01:00] Great point. Yeah. This clearly set Gene on a path of self destruction this episode. Number three, Jimmy is too hard on himself and assumes that people only see his weaknesses and not his strengths. A product of allowing Chuck's own exaggerated critiques to get to himself emotionally.

[02:01:16] That's the problem, Jimmy. You're always down. Kim said this to Jimmy during the season four finale. That line makes me believe that Jimmy's tale will be the sole cautionary tale in the Breaking Bad universe. A warning to process your feelings and get therapy instead of resorting

[02:01:30] to addictive behaviors. It's so true. I just said earlier he did not deal with any of his shit. He just buried it in Bill Personas. Yeah. Sorry, he goes on. Whereas Walt succeeded in securing his family's financial future

[02:01:44] and Jesse got a chance at a fresh start somewhere else, Jimmy will face a reckoning. I mean, Walt's dead. I'm with you on the three points. Yeah, but I'm not with you on it's the only cautionary tale. No, I don't. Yeah.

[02:01:59] You know, his Walt's wife just took a plea deal. He's dead. Jesse went through some shit. I mean, the whole kidnapping with the and having to force to make girlfriend got murdered. Yeah. Well, juniors, I mean, he didn't need to face a wreck. Anybody suffered because of Walt's.

[02:02:16] So and that's not what Walt wanted. You know, juniors dad is a dead criminal. But I think you have some really, really good points. Yes. Very good points. Yes. Very good points. Thank you. OK, here's a call from Steve Brown. Wait, is this one actually breaking bad?

[02:02:35] Hello, podcastica break better call, Saul breaking bad. Yeah. Is the army even walking dead with bull holes in it or breaking bad? A simple up and down motion like you're used to. I think you talk about this from Breaking Bad, the Francesca

[02:02:52] waiting for a phone call at a certain phone booth. So that's what this scene in the black and white timeline is. Oh, pay phones and having to put extra money in. Isn't that crazy? What's he going Florida for? Oh, that's where Kim is.

[02:03:07] Is he arguing or is he arguing with Kim or somebody else? Come on, BCS, you give us a cold open of obviously Saul in some kind of RV being kidnapped. And now we're getting all gene, which I love gene, but come on.

[02:03:22] OK, so the scam is after the bar, Jeff, he's driving this guy in the cab and he's going to drug him. OK, so this is this is Walter White and Jesse Pinkman, right? Nice subtle nod to Bob Odin Kirk's movie, Nobody. Lolo is nobody.

[02:03:38] OK, so they're stealing identities and selling them to somebody. Is that the vacuum cleaner guy you keep talking about? They're selling the ideas to. Oh, this guy's got cancer. And I think that's Kevin Sussman from The Big Bang Theory.

[02:03:50] I saw his name in the credits when it started. Nice, we do get to see Mike again at least one more time. So we're seeing the beginning of Saul and Eisenberg, Walter White's relationship. Hmm. So a crook with a heart.

[02:04:03] He doesn't want to rip up a guy with cancer. I appreciate that. My uncle had pancreatic cancer. He actually survived it. So are you kidding me? My DVR cut off right when he broke the glass and unlocked the door. Was that the end of the show?

[02:04:15] I hope so. This is a good thing. I still have AMC plus. All right, talk to you later. That was the end. Is he selling the licenses to add the vacuum cleaner guy? Well, that's a great call.

[02:04:30] I didn't know I didn't even occur to me, but yeah, it could be. Would not be something. They are. It does seem like an identity identity theft scheme. So maybe that's what it's being used for. Yeah, maybe.

[02:04:44] Yeah, I was thinking they were just going to steal money from these guys accounts, but you're right. It does seem more like an identity theft. I thought they were selling like their identities and like because he was like gathering bank information and passwords and things

[02:04:58] that I thought maybe it was yeah, like they're selling that information and making money. But they were getting their IDs and stuff too. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It was not super clear, but I don't think they themselves were doing anything with it.

[02:05:11] I think they were just getting the information and selling it. I thought they were just getting all the information so they could like make withdrawals and have all the everything they needed, passwords, you know, IDs and stuff. No credit card numbers. I don't know.

[02:05:29] I don't see those three guys having that computing power to do that and cover it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Two more left. We love hearing from you guys if you want to write in or leave us

[02:05:54] a message you can find our contact information or a button to record yourself at podcastica.com. While you're on there, be sure to check out our other shows. Yeah. Next up, Mark and Jamie are covering Sandman just coming out of Netflix in just a few days here. Awesome.

[02:06:13] And that's going to be its own standalone podcast. It won't be in the house podcast to compete. So you want to listen, just go to podcastica.com a few days after that airs and you'll see it up there.

[02:06:24] And you'll see links to all the different places where it's at. Podcastica family is growing. It's awesome. Well, next up for us is Better Call Saul Season Six, episode 12, Waterworks. And this one was written and directed by Vince Gilligan. So strap on your boots, fellas.

[02:06:48] Cam, cam, cam, cam, cam, cam out. I hope so. I'm going to manifest it and make it happen. I'm doubling down. I'm going for, I'm going for the gusto and hopefully if I'm wrong, everybody will forget. Well, I like your attitude. All right, that is our show.

[02:07:08] Thanks for listening. I still don't have a closing line. Jason, you're such an amateur. Oh, man. Can't. That was good. How dare you be on vacation and not get. I don't even have to edit it. Nice job. A little harsh.