12: "Saul Gone" (S6E13)

[00:00:00] Alright Mr. Goodman, go ahead.

[00:00:19] What happened to Howard Hamlin?

[00:00:21] It was...it was...I can't even...

[00:00:32] After that, Kim had the guts to start over.

[00:00:37] She left town, but I'm the one who ran away.

[00:00:44] And my brother Chuck, Charles McGill, you may have known him.

[00:00:52] He was an incredible lawyer.

[00:00:58] He was the most brilliant guy I ever met, but he was limited.

[00:01:03] I tried.

[00:01:06] I could have tried after.

[00:01:10] I should have.

[00:01:12] Instead, when you're on it...

[00:01:16] Bill, please, just let me get through this.

[00:01:20] Instead, when I saw a chance to hurt him, I took it.

[00:01:28] I got his malpractice insurance cancelled.

[00:01:32] I took away the one thing he lived for, the law.

[00:01:36] After that, he killed him, so I'm not left with that.

[00:01:49] It was all that.

[00:01:59] But that thing with your brother, that wasn't even a crime.

[00:02:02] It was.

[00:02:03] Mr. Goodman, sit down and stay seated.

[00:02:08] The name's McGill.

[00:02:10] I'm James McGill.

[00:02:12] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:16] I'm Jason.

[00:02:17] I'm Reema.

[00:02:18] And I'm David.

[00:02:20] And this is Better Call Saul Cast.

[00:02:23] This week, we're covering Better Call Saul Season 6, Episode 13, Saul Gone.

[00:02:31] What?

[00:02:33] It works.

[00:02:36] Oh man, it's over.

[00:02:38] I can't believe it's over.

[00:02:41] I'm still in shock.

[00:02:43] In every interview they're asking Peter Gold and Vince Gilligan if they're going to do another show in the Breaking Bad Universe.

[00:02:52] And they're saying maybe, but we don't have any plans for it.

[00:02:56] We want to do something else.

[00:02:58] They've been doing this for quite a good long time.

[00:03:00] I know.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:02] But get out there guys and do it again for us.

[00:03:04] Just one more time.

[00:03:05] Yeah, come on.

[00:03:06] Some other eight years.

[00:03:08] No biggie.

[00:03:09] It's a lot of time to spend in this universe with the characters and as much as I'd selfishly love if they found a way to have another spin-off.

[00:03:21] I'm sure it would be as magical as what the two series and the movie was.

[00:03:27] I don't blame them for wanting to do something a little bit different creatively.

[00:03:30] You know, everybody wants to do something different and challenge themselves a little bit.

[00:03:37] Can they do something else besides what they've done for the last 14 plus years or whatever?

[00:03:43] Yeah.

[00:03:44] Let's get into it.

[00:03:45] It's better called Saw Season 6 Episode 13, Sawgon.

[00:03:48] In general, what did you think of it, Rima?

[00:03:53] I thought it was probably one of the best finales I've ever seen.

[00:04:00] It's definitely up there with a few others that I deem perfect.

[00:04:07] I thought it was very well executed.

[00:04:11] I thought the writing, the direction that acting, everything was perfect.

[00:04:17] I really don't think it could have ended any other way for me anyway.

[00:04:25] When Kim left the prison and you saw Saw looking through the fence at her and then you go past where you can't see him anymore and then the credits roll, were you surprised?

[00:04:40] Yeah.

[00:04:41] That's it!

[00:04:42] I was like, what?

[00:04:44] No, because it faded to black and then credits and I was like, no.

[00:04:48] Do the finger guns, come on!

[00:04:50] Get out of there.

[00:04:52] I understood why she didn't do it but yeah, it was like, oh my gosh, that's it.

[00:04:58] I just immediately, I mean I was pretty emotional during the entirety of the episode.

[00:05:05] It felt a lot longer than what it really was.

[00:05:07] I kept looking at the clock thinking, gosh it feels like this is one of the extended episodes or something but it really wasn't.

[00:05:14] I don't think.

[00:05:15] Well, I watched it on AMC Plus so maybe for me it wasn't.

[00:05:18] It was the longest episode of Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul ever but not by much.

[00:05:23] That makes sense.

[00:05:24] 69 minutes.

[00:05:25] Okay, that makes sense.

[00:05:26] I didn't have commercials because I watched it on AMC Plus so there were no commercials.

[00:05:29] It just went straight cut but it did feel a little longer but I thought, oh my gosh, that's it.

[00:05:36] I was in the moment, I was recognizing that I'm getting ready to watch the last live episode of Breaking Bad Universe ever.

[00:05:47] I knew that going in so I was in that head space and then when the credits started rolling, that was a mess.

[00:05:54] I'm still a mess.

[00:05:55] I just finished it a few minutes ago so I'm still super teary eyed.

[00:05:58] My nose is running.

[00:06:00] I'm a mess.

[00:06:01] Like when, I always say when lost ended, I felt like I just had been through a breakup and I felt depressed afterwards.

[00:06:09] And I feel a little bit like that here and especially with that ending it's like, oh man, it really sits with you.

[00:06:15] But David, what about you?

[00:06:16] What did you think of it?

[00:06:17] Yeah, I was sad too.

[00:06:19] I do get bummed when a show I really love is coming to an end because it becomes part of your life not just attached to the characters

[00:06:28] but to the joy of watching it, the activity.

[00:06:31] So I definitely felt that I was bummed when it was over.

[00:06:34] I wasn't expecting a big happy ending.

[00:06:37] I mean, we've been watching this for more than a decade so that's not what you're going to get out of this program.

[00:06:44] But I'm with you, Reem.

[00:06:47] I thought this was one of the better finales of any major show.

[00:06:52] I mean, right up there with some really good ones like to me the leftovers is kind of the gold standard.

[00:07:01] It's a good one.

[00:07:02] Like arguably the best, you know, most elegant episode that show ever did was the last one.

[00:07:10] But there's some other great ones.

[00:07:12] Sopranos had a great finish.

[00:07:14] Not everyone agrees with that.

[00:07:16] I think it was pretty good.

[00:07:17] I thought it was great.

[00:07:18] I thought it was brilliant.

[00:07:19] My opinion is my own opinion only.

[00:07:23] I actually even like the last finale.

[00:07:25] I know that's even more controversial, including the people on this one.

[00:07:28] No, no, I liked it a lot.

[00:07:31] I just the only thing about the last finale that I think people actually kind of get confused is it just confirms that they really kind of were pulling stuff out of their ass the whole time because you didn't get the answers.

[00:07:43] But for an episode in and of itself, it was so moving.

[00:07:47] Yeah, agreed.

[00:07:48] I'm with you.

[00:07:49] And I actually liked this better than the last episode of Breaking Bad, which I have not loved.

[00:07:54] I thought you might.

[00:07:55] Yeah.

[00:07:56] It was great and a lot better than a lot of shows that fumbled the ending.

[00:08:04] You know, like Game of Thrones.

[00:08:08] Dexter.

[00:08:10] But no, it was terrific.

[00:08:12] I mean, we got everything that makes this show great.

[00:08:15] We got the characters we love.

[00:08:17] We had plot development.

[00:08:18] We had character development.

[00:08:19] We had humor.

[00:08:20] We had sadness.

[00:08:23] We got to see a lot of different eras.

[00:08:25] Yep.

[00:08:26] And we had Walter White and we even had Hank's wife and Marie.

[00:08:33] Marie.

[00:08:34] Very cool.

[00:08:35] And I think we got an ending that didn't cheap out like it was it fit and it was emotionally powerful, but it was tough to watch.

[00:08:44] So I think they pulled it off.

[00:08:46] It was like Ben said, it was earned.

[00:08:49] I think that's what he, how he described it was earned.

[00:08:54] During that time.

[00:08:56] Six feet under is the Michael standard for.

[00:09:00] Endings of a series.

[00:09:02] Do you ever watch that show, David?

[00:09:04] I watched some seasons of it, but never made it to the end.

[00:09:07] So maybe that's one to have to go back to.

[00:09:09] I think so.

[00:09:10] I feel like it dipped a little bit in like the second to last season, but then the last season and that last episode.

[00:09:19] If you don't want to cry, don't watch it.

[00:09:22] Yeah.

[00:09:23] Or if you need a good cry, then you should watch it.

[00:09:26] I do want to cry.

[00:09:27] You should watch it.

[00:09:30] I thought this episode was so, I mean, fun is a weird word for it for a show like this.

[00:09:37] But to see all those different eras and and the twist and turns and just had everything great about Better Call Saul, which I feel like is always love the show.

[00:09:47] But this last season, I don't think it was just because we were podcasting in it.

[00:09:50] It was just phenomenal.

[00:09:52] I thought it was a fitting end of the series.

[00:09:55] There is is still a part of me that's like, really?

[00:09:58] You're going to go to jail for 86 years just so you can feel good about yourself.

[00:10:02] Come on.

[00:10:05] So I can't totally get rid of that.

[00:10:08] There's a part of me that's like, couldn't you have found another way to come clean without actually having to come clean?

[00:10:16] But I guess that's not how it works.

[00:10:20] Well, you know, with good behavior, you know who knows.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] I know we'll learn.

[00:10:26] We'll get into the details, but I don't think there was any other way for him.

[00:10:30] Maybe not.

[00:10:31] I'm open to that possibility.

[00:10:33] The other thing is, it's federal time, which means you do 80%.

[00:10:37] There's no, you don't serve a third of the sentence with federal time.

[00:10:41] So.

[00:10:42] Oh really?

[00:10:43] That's you have to do at least 80.

[00:10:45] Yep.

[00:10:46] Barring the unforeseen.

[00:10:48] He's there.

[00:10:49] Yeah.

[00:10:50] Like some thing comes up in the case where he was wrongfully accused.

[00:10:53] That's not going to happen.

[00:10:57] He confessed.

[00:10:58] Well, I haven't gone first that much since we were podcasting.

[00:11:04] Do you guys mind if I go first?

[00:11:06] Please go for it.

[00:11:07] Okay.

[00:11:08] Cause I'm going to start right with the meat of the matter because there's so much to talk about.

[00:11:12] But my first item is Jimmy comes clean.

[00:11:15] And there was a lot that led up to it, which we'll talk about, but I'll start with him in court where he confesses and he says, yeah, I wasn't there when the meth was cooked.

[00:11:27] I wasn't there when it was sold.

[00:11:29] I didn't witness any of the murders, but I damn well knew it was happening.

[00:11:32] I was more than a willing participant.

[00:11:34] I was indispensable.

[00:11:35] I kept Walter White out of jail.

[00:11:37] I laundered his money.

[00:11:38] I lied for him.

[00:11:39] I conspired with him and I made millions if he hadn't walked into my office that day.

[00:11:43] Walter White was a good guy.

[00:11:44] I guess that day Walter White would have been dead or behind bars within a month.

[00:11:48] The fact is Walter White couldn't have done it without me.

[00:11:52] That that was interesting because it almost felt a little bit like he had some of that energy when he said he shoots lightning from his fingers in that one episode, you know, little braggadocio.

[00:12:06] I don't know if that's what they were going for, but it felt like that a little bit, a little puffed up.

[00:12:11] Then he looked over at Kim and I think he had a shift of realization that that wasn't quite the right tone.

[00:12:21] Maybe not the right tone.

[00:12:22] Yeah, and not enough, not conciliatory enough.

[00:12:24] So then he started talking about Howard and getting choked up and he said Kim had the guts to leave town, but he's the one who ran away.

[00:12:34] And I thought about that.

[00:12:35] He's not talking about running away and becoming Jean, that's after Walter.

[00:12:39] I think by running away, he means becoming Saul Goodman.

[00:12:43] Totally.

[00:12:44] It's a way to run away from any feelings around that and any culpability.

[00:12:49] Then he started talking about Chuck who he said was an incredible lawyer and the most brilliant guy he'd ever met.

[00:12:55] But he was limited, which I love because Chuck was so limited in a lot of ways.

[00:12:59] And he's just being really honest about and true about everything.

[00:13:03] And he says, I tried, I could have tried harder.

[00:13:05] I should have instead when I saw a chance to hurt him, I took it.

[00:13:09] I got his malpractice insurance canceled.

[00:13:11] I took away the one thing he lived for the law after that he killed himself and I'll live with that.

[00:13:18] And this for me reminded me of course of his reinstatement hearing when he gave that touching speech about Chuck and it turned out to be BS.

[00:13:28] And it's often hard to know with Jimmy, whether he's got some ulterior motive.

[00:13:33] But one clue that he's being honest here is it's going to cost him.

[00:13:38] You know, there's no reason for him.

[00:13:41] I mean, I guess it could be just to show Kim something that's not true.

[00:13:46] But no, I don't believe that.

[00:13:48] I believe that any emotion we see from him in this moment is real.

[00:13:53] And and before this moment, he couldn't bring himself to face his regrets with Chuck.

[00:14:01] Even in all those time machine conversations we'll talk about, but this was where he faced it.

[00:14:07] And and I maybe it's better that he didn't plan to say this because it did seem like he discovered it in the moment.

[00:14:14] So that it makes it even feel more authentic.

[00:14:19] And it felt a bit like when Walter said that he did everything he did because he liked it, you know.

[00:14:27] But this is a way more, I think, thorough reckoning than that and feelings of remorse.

[00:14:33] It's it's more full, just a full reckoning with how his own personality flaws have hurt the people around him.

[00:14:44] And the judge says, Mr. Goodman sit down and stay seated.

[00:14:47] And he says the name's McGill. I'm James McGill.

[00:14:52] So he's not Saul anymore. He's not running away.

[00:14:55] Saul gone and I'd better call on cider Bob Odenkirk was on there and he said that James McGill is yet another iteration of the character.

[00:15:07] One who owns the choices he made, which totally makes sense.

[00:15:11] Like Jimmy is not a serious name. Jimmy.

[00:15:14] Apologies to any Jimmy's out there, but Jimmy sounds like a kid, you know, and James is a grown up.

[00:15:19] Slipping Jimmy. Yeah.

[00:15:21] Yeah. And I love I don't know if all these things were planned ahead of time or if they were just sort of unconsciously planned, you know, by the writers, but it fits together so well.

[00:15:29] Everything here.

[00:15:31] Maybe this is a good this next thing for you guys to weigh in.

[00:15:36] But on a real world level, I was like, could he have found another way?

[00:15:41] Like what if he'd come to this reckoning on his own but not broadcast it to the world and.

[00:15:46] And maybe he could have helped Kim after seven years in jail.

[00:15:51] Or come out and helped other people.

[00:15:54] Bob Odenkirk thinks he will help guys in jail, but.

[00:15:58] I also feel like, you know, like you kind of alluded to earlier, David, we talked about how Walter White may have deserved any more sending and they kind of cheesed out a little bit by having him go out of hero.

[00:16:09] And Jimmy simultaneously got a horrible horrible ending, but also a little bit of a cheesy hero ending too.

[00:16:16] Like it feels like something no one would really ever do.

[00:16:21] And so now we get to think of him as a truly a good guy.

[00:16:27] And it feels very thematically satisfying, but yeah, I mean, I would say he's at best mixed with everything we know about him.

[00:16:37] He did some terrible things, but he was always a mixed character.

[00:16:43] Yeah.

[00:16:44] And the way I would see it at the end is he sort of got his soul back.

[00:16:48] Yeah.

[00:16:49] Flawed though it is.

[00:16:51] And Walter is different.

[00:16:53] So I think there is a similarity here that you touched on and you're exactly right.

[00:16:59] His the initial path he was going down was sort of braggadocious.

[00:17:04] And it for someone like him and what Wright Walter was a genius at this thing that was totally illegal and couldn't be talked about.

[00:17:15] And Saul kind of was too.

[00:17:17] I mean, he was sort of a con man criminal lawyer or lawyer who's a criminal.

[00:17:23] It's a little squishier with him because it's almost like he could be a really good marketer to or something, you know, right?

[00:17:29] But so in the end, you see him in the speech.

[00:17:32] He wants credit for what they accomplished the same way Walter did.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:37] But then to your point, he realizes that I'm not going down the right road here.

[00:17:43] And but I looked at it as he got his soul back in the end flawed though it was.

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:49] I mean on a thematically level weighing how the whole series led to this moment and what it means for his character.

[00:17:56] It's great.

[00:17:57] And and I have I've written here exactly what you just said.

[00:18:02] Jimmy saved his soul at the cost of his freedom.

[00:18:05] And Walt said so you were always like this.

[00:18:09] And Chuck said earlier in the series, in the end, you're going to hurt everyone around you.

[00:18:14] You can't help it.

[00:18:15] So maybe this was what he needed to do to break that cycle.

[00:18:22] And he did something that most of us don't ever do.

[00:18:26] I think he came completely clean about his failings in a way that cost him.

[00:18:32] But it saved his soul and that's the most important thing.

[00:18:34] That's the lesson of the show.

[00:18:36] I'd mentioned three ways of dealing with adversity.

[00:18:38] You can shrink away from it.

[00:18:40] You can posture and armor up or you can face it openly and accept the consequences.

[00:18:44] And I think that's exactly what Jimmy did here in a big way.

[00:18:47] And I said to move forward, he would need to own up to what he did and to how he created this pain for other people

[00:18:55] and to reflect on it and have self awareness.

[00:18:57] And I think he did all that.

[00:18:59] And and I think maybe I don't know, this might be a bit of a reach, but one reason he needed to say that in a forum

[00:19:11] where there would be a huge cost is so that he knows it's real too.

[00:19:16] Because, you know, I think when you get to be someone like him, you might believe your own BS.

[00:19:21] And you might not know how sincere you're being when you're trying to be sincere.

[00:19:25] So to put everything on the line like this, there's no escaping and everything about what he does is

[00:19:34] is cutting corners and, you know, wriggling out of things and no.

[00:19:39] Well, we've seen him fake the sincere speech so often.

[00:19:43] Yeah.

[00:19:44] But I mean, even just for himself, not for the audience or the other characters, but just so he would feel the authenticity of it.

[00:19:51] He couldn't go back in time and make a small choice to correct things.

[00:19:54] So he had to make a big choice right here and end up in a correctional facility.

[00:20:00] I'm just reading through my notes here.

[00:20:03] And just part of owning your choices is facing the consequences.

[00:20:08] And I also love that this was an echo of what he did to Chuck in the other great courtroom scene of the series.

[00:20:15] He made Chuck show everyone who he was after having brought his ex-wife there to witness it.

[00:20:21] Chuck's ex-wife.

[00:20:22] Here he brings his own ex-wife and he bears his own, it's of his own volition, but it's sort of similar.

[00:20:28] And there's even, of course, I know you guys both notice that buzzing exit sign as a nod to that.

[00:20:33] And the last thing I'll say is just because this is all about the ending and where he ended up is that I think it's really fun that all the prisoners know him as all and they seem to love him and he's a big celebrity.

[00:20:44] And so that's another silver lining that he's getting this respect that he always craved, you know, and hopefully he will be able to help some of them.

[00:20:53] So, so I think it was it was such a, I mean, even though I have this thing about, couldn't you have maybe that says something about me?

[00:21:01] Couldn't you have found a way to save his soul without having to go away for 86 years?

[00:21:07] More overwhelmingly, I just think, wow, what a great ending for the show.

[00:21:11] And they had said there was never another ending like it on any show and I don't remember any ending like this either.

[00:21:18] Well, and as you said, Rima and as Vince earned.

[00:21:23] If you think about what Kim did, Kim did some bad things resulted in the death of somebody.

[00:21:31] Ultimately, I think she cared about.

[00:21:34] And that was a terrible outcome.

[00:21:38] She did a lot of good things too.

[00:21:41] But the the depth of.

[00:21:45] Sol's crimes were much, much worse than Kim's.

[00:21:49] Yeah, and the extent of them.

[00:21:51] And even like Kim's led to the death of Howard, but that was mostly because of the stuff that Saul was involved in too.

[00:21:58] It that's true.

[00:22:00] So like she definitely paid.

[00:22:02] She's paid with the loss of her lockerer that she loved and sort of her life that she had and some other ways.

[00:22:10] Now we're getting indications that she's gotten her soul back by confessing to and her life is going to proceed in a different direction.

[00:22:17] But the punishments were proportionate for the two of them.

[00:22:23] Yeah, yeah, I was sort of wondering like is what he's doing in some way?

[00:22:29] Is he trying to help her because they made it clear that Cheryl Howard's wife is looking for a lawyer and Kim is going to try to not only take everything she has, but everything she will have in perpetuity.

[00:22:42] And so I was trying to think is is Jimmy trying to do something to help ease that?

[00:22:47] But ultimately in the end, I don't think so.

[00:22:50] I don't think there was anything you could do.

[00:22:52] I disagree.

[00:22:54] I think the whole thing.

[00:22:55] I think it was all driven for Kim.

[00:22:59] Okay, cool.

[00:23:00] What happened?

[00:23:01] Why?

[00:23:04] I was trying to figure that out like how could it have helped her because he said, you know, in the courtroom, I just made up a bunch of things about Kim.

[00:23:14] It was the one lie he told during that courtroom scene.

[00:23:17] Okay, I hope you're right.

[00:23:18] But the way I read that was, you know, earlier when they were trying to make us think that he was going to throw Kim under the bus and he told his lawyer, oh, I got more stuff on her.

[00:23:31] And he's like, well, or not on her but on this and she's he's like, well, anything you could say would jam Kim up and if she's involved, oh, she's involved.

[00:23:39] And then in court when he said I made up a bunch of stuff about Kim being involved, I was like, well, he was talking about more stuff than they already knew.

[00:23:50] So I thought that was the stuff he made up whatever we didn't hear it and everything else that they already did know is because Kim had a notarized affidavit confessing all of it which doesn't change.

[00:24:04] Nothing Jimmy says changes anything Kim confessed to.

[00:24:08] I don't think he can save her from the civil suit, but I think he was helping protect her from criminal liability.

[00:24:15] Okay.

[00:24:17] Is that the way you I mean, well, I mean, he could if he just said nothing that would have had the same impact though right because if Bill Oakley's right anything more he said could have brought the government down on her.

[00:24:28] So it was a bit risky to make up more stuff just to get her to that courtroom and then say it was a lie.

[00:24:35] All right, who wants to go next.

[00:24:44] We have nothing more on that.

[00:24:46] David how about you please.

[00:24:49] Okay.

[00:24:52] Yeah, so I'll just follow up that by talking about redemption stories, which we've talked a lot about in this show so you know here, Jason you've been talking about Saul's redemption stories.

[00:25:06] What about the other main characters in this show so

[00:25:10] and we already talked about Walt a little bit.

[00:25:14] So we see Walt in this interesting scene with Saul.

[00:25:22] What remorse does he feel at this moment where everything's gone downhill and he's now fleeing, you know with the help of vacuum cleaner guy.

[00:25:31] None whatsoever.

[00:25:33] Like when given a chance to talk about his regrets, all his regrets are about how you know, my eyes was done badly by these other people.

[00:25:42] Yeah, which is also BS but that you know we can talk about that and we talked more about that scene.

[00:25:50] I think for Jimmy he redeems himself in the eyes of the only person he cares about.

[00:25:56] And a lot of what he did was just to make sure she was there to hear it.

[00:26:00] Yeah.

[00:26:03] And it did make me reflect on some of the good in him.

[00:26:07] So if you think back to Jimmy when we very first meet him in the series, he's taken care of his brother with no gain to himself.

[00:26:17] So he does have that in him.

[00:26:20] And then there are other moments like near the end of the series with Marion.

[00:26:24] I mean he could have killed her to save himself and he did not do it.

[00:26:29] So we've seen the good in him all the way through.

[00:26:32] And I think therefore redemption for him rings true in the end.

[00:26:37] To me Kim's redemption is the closest to the real thing.

[00:26:41] Like she did the least.

[00:26:44] She did a lot of good for people along the way and she was the most proactive in her regret and confession.

[00:26:52] Do you guys agree with that?

[00:26:54] Yes.

[00:26:55] I do.

[00:26:56] The only possible caveat for me is I just she really pushed Saul or Jimmy to do the scam with Howard.

[00:27:08] I mentioned this, I think last time.

[00:27:11] And then when it all went bad, she left him and that's really harsh.

[00:27:17] And he ran away and became Saul after that.

[00:27:21] And you can't blame her for that.

[00:27:24] He's got to own his own actions, but it still doesn't sit right with me.

[00:27:31] I mean, I still feel some resentment towards her character for that.

[00:27:39] But I think as far as whether she got what she deserved.

[00:27:48] I mean, now I think it's appropriate if Cheryl goes after her a bit on some level.

[00:27:56] Well, if she's working at the free law clinic, there's not going to be much to go after.

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] But you know, if I was Cheryl, I would want some justice there.

[00:28:07] While I would agree that Kim, when it came to this game with Howard was definitely pushing more.

[00:28:16] If we go back to previous seasons, it was Jimmy pulling her in to do the schemes, getting her started down that path.

[00:28:28] So he is kind of responsible for her getting to that point by bringing her in to that world.

[00:28:37] I mean, yeah, I would say she's as responsible or he's as responsible for getting her to that point as she is for getting him to the point of being Saul.

[00:28:48] You know, ultimately everyone has responsible for their own selves.

[00:28:53] So I guess in that regard, they both just have to, you know, own their actions.

[00:29:01] Right?

[00:29:03] I mean, if she if he's going to if you're going to sort of make him culpable for her getting into the scams, then you have to also have her be culpable for the things that her actions spurred him on to do, which were to do the whole scam on Howard and then also become Saul Goodman afterwards.

[00:29:22] Well, and I think honestly, and this is kind of messed up, but that's a lot of what this show is.

[00:29:28] It was part of her attraction to him. She didn't love him that much without that part of him.

[00:29:34] You know, that that was part of their relationship was her attraction to that side of him.

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:41] So he was.

[00:29:42] That's who he was.

[00:29:43] So that lastly on this, this whole point and this does get into the Walter White scene, I thought that was almost the most fascinating because we did learn some and breaking bad about Walt's regret, you know, however, it's sincere or shallow it was or wasn't but

[00:30:03] but that's really was the main thing in this scene was his soliloquy on regret, which Saul completely avoided it at this point.

[00:30:14] And so he goes into gray matter and how they artfully maneuvered me into leaving my own creation and which seems like a very warped view very likely of what actually happened, which I don't even know if I can because I don't know if we ever heard it was his

[00:30:31] creation and I don't necessarily trust that it was completely his creation.

[00:30:35] No, I think he's exaggerating that and probably his colossal ego couldn't take Gretchen not loving him or choosing Elliott over him.

[00:30:43] I went back and looked and it reminded me of some scenes in Breaking Bad to remember what we did know and we knew they were all you know in this company together and she was his lab assistant and they were in a relationship.

[00:30:56] But then we found out that he felt inferior because her family was rich and on some vacation he broke up with her.

[00:31:06] I'd forgotten about that so and then I don't think we knew then he left the company, I think because of that in some way we still don't know exactly why but I could see him just have done it.

[00:31:17] He says he was being gentlemanly but just being pissed you know forget you guys and we also know that eventually Elliott married Gretchen.

[00:31:27] Right, it's always the ego with Walt.

[00:31:30] Yeah.

[00:31:31] It's all of he's a narcissist.

[00:31:33] I mean it's all about his ego but at the end of that scene you know as you said Saul's not ready to confront his own demons at that point in the story and he tells this you know sort of bullshit story about how I hurt my knee during a con or this triviality.

[00:31:55] And as you said Walt says to Saul so you were always like this.

[00:32:01] And just dripping with content.

[00:32:03] I mean Walt himself is a mass murderer and he's like oh you committed the scheme where you fell down in front of my department story you were always like this so so I thought they really did a good job of drawing the contrast between the redemption stories of the three main characters or lack thereof.

[00:32:24] I liked how so this time machine can see it was really great to sort of examine whether well the regrets of these characters lives and also how Saul just can't admit regret because that would also be owning culpability.

[00:32:37] And in the first one with Mike, he says I wish I could go back to the beginning of Berkshire Hathaway and invest in it.

[00:32:46] And so that's sort of just some fantasy that has nothing to do with regretting any of your actions.

[00:32:52] And then when Mike says dude don't you have any regrets of things you've done or whatever he said.

[00:32:58] Jimmy's like I feel fine now let's go.

[00:33:01] So he's just ran away and but then with Walt, he's trapped in this room he can't run away.

[00:33:07] And so when Walt asks him do you have any regrets and he's like seems stymied again but then he's all oh no no I have one and you think oh maybe he's actually going to reflect a little bit but then it's like I fucked up a scam.

[00:33:20] Right.

[00:33:21] But I was happy with these because then it felt like okay things come in threes and I just had a sense that this means he's finally going to reflect by the end of this episode you know which he did.

[00:33:35] It was very Dickinson being visited by the ghosts of his past.

[00:33:39] Yeah.

[00:33:40] Indeed.

[00:33:43] Okay Rima what's your first point?

[00:33:47] Well I'm kind of all over the place I didn't really have anything in order but since we've already touched on you know the courtroom scene and you know Saul, Jimmy if you will come in clean I guess Jimmy killing Saul in that courtroom essentially is kind of.

[00:34:04] The jacket off and thrown it down.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] The shiny Saul Goodman jacket.

[00:34:09] That's yeah I was trying to imagine the color like because everything was still in black and white and I'm like I have to see I feel like this probably like the loudest thing you could see the the sheen to it.

[00:34:19] Yeah they really made it shiny so we know.

[00:34:22] But if it had been in color the scene would have played a lot differently I think because you would have seen I forgot that it was a Saul Goodman outfit as he went along.

[00:34:34] I'm just thinking about it now but you wouldn't be able to forget if it was this big pink salmon thing or something like that you know so it would I feel I feel like it would have much different feeling to it anyway sorry.

[00:34:44] I love the suits in the closet the little promos.

[00:34:47] Oh yeah.

[00:34:48] The music that sounded like it was from the bar scene and the shining.

[00:34:51] And showing the different stages of his life with one day of the hanger at the end which I kind of thought prison uniform coming up.

[00:34:58] Yeah that was a really nice touch.

[00:35:00] It's what they showed at the end.

[00:35:02] I don't know if you watched the final but yeah they had it.

[00:35:04] Yeah I know yeah.

[00:35:05] Yeah.

[00:35:06] That was really cool.

[00:35:07] Well I mean I think for me the you know as we were talking about the theme of the episode and the whole point of what he did you know in the courtroom you know when he was having that conversation with Chuck which I won't go into just yet because it's one of my points too.

[00:35:28] For me it was the theme was if you don't like where you're heading there's no shame in going back and changing your path.

[00:35:34] And that I think is what what he was doing here.

[00:35:40] For me when he's there in the courtroom and he's confessing and he's going through everything.

[00:35:50] You know that he was behind you know Walt keeping him out of jail laundering as many you know you listed all the things.

[00:35:58] And then when he talks about Chuck and talks about Howard this was for me a logical place for for Jimmy to get to is the only conclusion I feel for him you know he he I think a lot of it was owning up because he never has before he has hidden under this facade of Saul Goodman and ran away from responsibility.

[00:36:23] He has put blame on others.

[00:36:25] And you know I think part of why he's done that is because he has the superpower that lets him do it.

[00:36:33] He's so good at getting away with things and it's like absolute power corrupts that it would be really tempting to use that power anytime rather than face which is painful that you had some or you know to face the consequences of your actions.

[00:36:49] So I think that's part of it's like if you're a Spider-Man and something happened you just swing away.

[00:36:55] Well and I mean I think you know as we're talking as you guys were just talking about you know the regrets of some of these characters I think for Jimmy one of his biggest regrets was getting him involved in all of his scheming and getting to that point.

[00:37:15] You know I think he feels really responsible for that that where she is at now like he knows where she's at in this terrible boring life you know in Florida with her yep yep boyfriend.

[00:37:29] You know it's it's yeah life worse worse than death a little.

[00:37:34] So I think that's one of his biggest regrets and then also being responsible for checking Howard's death you know he feels really responsible for checking it was really good to hear him you know talk about that and when he was getting choked up about Howard.

[00:37:48] This courtroom scene was his own version of his own time machine to correct all of that to correct bringing Kim into all of it to you know show that regret for.

[00:38:02] His relationship with Chuck and how he could have done more his involvement with Howard's death and how he died because of what he was involved with.

[00:38:12] You know he got what he deserved and he is finally at peace he hasn't been at peace like the entire for as long as we've known Saul Goodman Jimmy McGill.

[00:38:23] He's never been at peace this was all these years of the emotion and regrets that he's had he this was his way of getting through that and when he said when Oakley looked at him.

[00:38:37] When he's like why are you bringing up that stuff about your brother that wasn't a crime and he looked at him said yes it was.

[00:38:43] You know that was a big big part and I think that he needed you know he's he he was telling everyone like oh I've got all these new details you haven't heard and saying it was about Kim and that's why he got her there.

[00:38:57] He needed her there to hear not just what he was talking about with his life with Walt and how he was behind all of that but also to kind of confess about Chuck.

[00:39:12] He's never told anyone he never told anyone about what he did about Chuck's insurance.

[00:39:19] You know he walked out of that office when he got his insurance canceled and he didn't tell anyone and he needed Kim to hear that she was his wonder.

[00:39:28] That he needed to convince.

[00:39:31] Yeah I believe that and himself maybe.

[00:39:35] I mean I do think he needed to just be at peace with it.

[00:39:39] We kind of saw that evolution of thoughts as we were getting visited and they were talking about regrets and if you had a time machine and what would you do and you know because I do think it was.

[00:39:53] Yeah I don't necessarily think he's like hoping Kim comes back to him or something maybe but.

[00:40:01] No I'm I didn't mean that.

[00:40:02] No I know but I'm just following that thought line is even if he doesn't it would still make sense that he would want to show her.

[00:40:10] That he's sorry.

[00:40:12] For sure.

[00:40:14] Yeah so I agree with what you're saying I just also think that it's important for him on a personal level to.

[00:40:21] Independently of anyone else including Kim to just come clean with himself and like we've been saying cleanses soul so it can start on a fresh foot.

[00:40:31] Yeah behind bars and making bread using his Cinnabon skills.

[00:40:35] At the Elcatraz of the Rockies.

[00:40:38] Yeah right where he didn't want to go.

[00:40:40] Yeah that's you know he's going to be the mayor of that place.

[00:40:43] He seems like he already is.

[00:40:45] He's already got himself a good good lead in for sure.

[00:40:48] I don't know I mean it was he wasn't even planning on doing any of that until he learned about Kim.

[00:40:54] Right.

[00:40:56] You know he was pretty happy taking that seven year deal.

[00:40:59] And going to another thing with him like as much as this sort of is a commentary that yeah all that scamming was bad people.

[00:41:08] It was just so fun to watch even here when he gets his seven and a half years come down from one one ninety life plus one ninety or whatever.

[00:41:18] And he did it by totally making a mockery of Hank's death.

[00:41:25] You know right in front of Hank's wife.

[00:41:28] There's still a part of me that was like wow that's impressive.

[00:41:32] You know or it's like I don't know that's why we watched this show for so long is at least part it's not the whole reason why but.

[00:41:39] Deep into the fabric of the show was it was just fun to watch the scams.

[00:41:44] Even though they were wrong.

[00:41:47] You know without this without that we wouldn't.

[00:41:51] There wouldn't be a show.

[00:41:53] I don't think it's like watching Spider-Man without the webs.

[00:41:58] Nobody wants to see that anything else.

[00:42:01] No not on that.

[00:42:04] Okay.

[00:42:06] This is a little bit of a shorter one Jimmy gets caught so.

[00:42:10] We see Jean racing home to get his stuff as.

[00:42:14] What's her name Marion is.

[00:42:16] Telling the police.

[00:42:18] Go get him.

[00:42:19] He grabs the diamonds and he has all these burner phones still.

[00:42:24] Which is a nice callback which he's going to use to call the vacuum guy another callback.

[00:42:30] And he heard the police talking about him on the police radio even though it didn't end up helping him much I'm glad that he actually.

[00:42:37] You know heard something.

[00:42:38] It's like the Chekhov's gun.

[00:42:40] It's got to come to play somehow.

[00:42:42] That was cool.

[00:42:43] Then he's in the dumpster.

[00:42:45] He spills diamonds.

[00:42:47] Hilarious because he can't get his burner phone open.

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:53] It's like dude.

[00:42:55] You missed two or three of those.

[00:42:57] That's how many hundred thousand dollars or whatever.

[00:42:59] I don't know how much they're worth but then he fishes out the best quality vacuum card which is in his bandaid container which is a bit on the nose.

[00:43:07] I think but it makes sense thematically because it's a bandaid to use that guy.

[00:43:12] He represents running away and trying to pretend you're someone else and what if anything he should have learned is no matter where he goes there he is you cannot run away from yourself.

[00:43:22] And the only way to solve your problems of your own creation is to change yourself.

[00:43:27] And that can be really hard because you have to look at where your own failings and if you just sit there pretending everything is OK when it isn't then all those things just simmer under the surface and run your life without you having any control over it.

[00:43:41] So the only way to get control is to actually face it which can be really painful.

[00:43:46] That bandaid container I think was also a callback to an earlier episode.

[00:43:50] He had that hidden in his parents old store in the ceiling.

[00:43:56] Oh yeah that's right.

[00:43:58] I forgot about that now he puts yeah yeah that's great.

[00:44:02] And then when he's in jail like he caught he is caught he's in jail and he's going what were you thinking which is sort of like you're stupid you know but he's that that's that self sabotage.

[00:44:15] I was just if you don't look at your weak spots and take care of them that is like self sabotage because you can then keep making the same mistakes.

[00:44:26] And when he's saying what are you thinking and then he smacks his hand against the wall.

[00:44:31] He's mad at himself for sabotaging myself and then he does it again by hurting his own hand that's just.

[00:44:38] It's on different levels just that's what he's done he sabotaged himself his whole life.

[00:44:43] We all do that in big and little ways.

[00:44:46] He called Cinnabon from jail and told Krista to post the week's rotation and also oh by the way call the main office and tell them you're going to need any manager.

[00:44:56] And that was sweet thing to do.

[00:44:59] There's so many callouts and parallels in this show.

[00:45:03] They do it so often you'd almost think it would bog the show down but they're so good at it that it works.

[00:45:09] Yeah so good.

[00:45:10] And that to me was a call back to Gus running his Puyo Sermonos.

[00:45:15] Yeah wow.

[00:45:17] He would call Lyle and delve into the details like he's getting a bullet wound tend to do.

[00:45:24] He's getting close for me.

[00:45:26] And these shows they dwell on little mundane details like that in a way that most shows don't and they find a way to make it so meaningful or interesting.

[00:45:37] Yeah.

[00:45:38] So cool.

[00:45:39] Last thing on this point is he's sitting in his cell and when he starts laughing maniacally that was such a powerful moment.

[00:45:48] He's so good Bob Odin Kirk and then he calls Bill Oakley and bills like no matter who your lawyer is you're screwed.

[00:45:56] So I've got to ask where do you see this ending.

[00:45:58] He goes where do I see it ending with me on top like always.

[00:46:02] And that.

[00:46:03] That was interesting.

[00:46:08] He's like in maybe the worst situation we've seen him in yet and he's still being cocky and thinking get out and he could have.

[00:46:17] He could have had seven years in a cushy golf jail with mint ice cream every weekend.

[00:46:21] I didn't say he was.

[00:46:23] We never quite achieved the mint ice cream but.

[00:46:25] I guess you're right.

[00:46:27] But the thing that really struck me also about the whole scene the getaway scene where he does not get away which was a lot of fun.

[00:46:36] It was a chase scene with some humor in it.

[00:46:38] But how ignominious it was.

[00:46:41] I mean that in the end this guy who is able to has the superpower as you put it up getting away with anything like he ends up in a dumpster surrounded by cops just like.

[00:46:53] Yeah.

[00:46:55] Ignominious just embarrassing basically.

[00:46:58] Yeah I mean just undignified embarrassing just he's hit bottom at that point.

[00:47:04] And then I loved Marie saying they told me they found you in a dumpster.

[00:47:09] That sounds right or whatever it was.

[00:47:11] It makes sense.

[00:47:13] So perfect.

[00:47:17] That was very good.

[00:47:19] Okay.

[00:47:20] So we all carry forward from there and talk about Saul Goodman's final scheme which was Operation Short Sundance basically.

[00:47:29] So you know as you said when he says this will end with me on top you know he's got something in mind.

[00:47:36] And we're all eager to hear what it is.

[00:47:39] And then we see Saul do his thing where he begins with a sincere sounding speech about how afraid he was of Walter White.

[00:47:49] And it started with a meeting as Mr. Mayhew and what a great guy Hank Schrader was and this whole thing.

[00:47:56] And really this is a mirror of his speech to the New Mexico Bar Association where at the end he was like they bought it.

[00:48:04] You know it was all in this case.

[00:48:06] In this case you know he basically reveals that at the end.

[00:48:12] He says hey I can you know do you think it's yours are going to buy that he says one all I need is one.

[00:48:19] And then he sort of baits the prosecutor about his perfect records like he really want to go up against me with your perfect record are you sure.

[00:48:27] Jerry's every good job.

[00:48:29] All every she can find.

[00:48:31] Yeah roll of the dice.

[00:48:33] So and he's so good at it.

[00:48:38] And we know actually you buy it because this is what he was so great at like this is him in his element as a lawyer.

[00:48:46] So he leverages a deal for himself to be sent to FCI butler low in North Carolina.

[00:48:53] So I looked that up like this is a real place wing D.

[00:48:59] So FCI is Federal Correctional Institute.

[00:49:03] Butler is actually a complex of various FCI's and low is not a name.

[00:49:11] Low means low security.

[00:49:13] So that's the low security jail in color.

[00:49:17] Yeah in butler country club you know right.

[00:49:20] As the only federal pen with a golf program where Bernie Madoff went so this actually is true.

[00:49:30] They've borrowed from reality here.

[00:49:33] Bernie Madoff was at butler low.

[00:49:37] He died there actually in April of 2021.

[00:49:42] They've had some other well known inmates probably the second most famous is Jesse Jackson Jr.

[00:49:48] Jesse Jackson's son who was an Illinois congressman he served 30 months at butler low.

[00:49:55] But yeah you could see that as a like a Saul destination he'd be the mayor of that place too.

[00:50:01] Yeah if he'd gone there for 85 months instead of 86 years so he ends up reversing it for all the reasons.

[00:50:11] We've already discussed but I really enjoyed his his final scheme.

[00:50:16] It was clever and well executed and it worked.

[00:50:20] It was just fun to watch too like one final Saul moment you know just you know is he a good guy.

[00:50:29] No you know but it's so fun to watch Saul like scheme and talk his way you know and seeing those wheels turn and you don't always quite know how it's going to

[00:50:39] or like what's he gonna possibly say to get out of this because when you hear that list of charges you're just like oh boy you know.

[00:50:48] Just a look on that prosecutor's face was perfect and also Marie and that was such a great cameo.

[00:50:59] We haven't seen her in eight years or whatever it is.

[00:51:03] Yeah and a breaking bad but it was so Marie for her to say you are not going to negotiate with this man and then you know the next shot is there negotiating with him of course.

[00:51:17] Yeah oh can't lose a case better to to plea out than to than to chance losing it.

[00:51:23] She just knows he knows every button to push.

[00:51:26] What and I mean that dude's got an ego just as big as what he does I think you know I think and I think he he recognizes that and he can use that to manipulate.

[00:51:36] That's what makes him so good is he can he can find that and that's always what made Jimmy McGill or Saul Goodman so good he could find that one thing that was your your weakness or maybe it's not a weakness but that one thing you know and then use it to manipulate and that's what he did here.

[00:51:53] So it was it was fun as a you know entertainment value also not in real life but entertainment value to watch.

[00:52:02] Yeah it was fun to see him do his thing.

[00:52:04] Yeah one last time so good.

[00:52:08] Reema.

[00:52:10] Well some of these are kind of short and sweet but I wanted to talk a little bit about Mike we've talked on him a little bit in the flashbacks and and him being mentioned but I.

[00:52:23] Really liked them the farewell to Mike I kept thinking you know every every last few episodes I thought that's last time we're going to see Mike that's the last time we're going to see Mike you know just.

[00:52:33] I'm so wrong when it comes to that because I thought oh they could finish it here and I'm totally fine with that where Mike story ends but I think this was a really great farewell to Mike such a you know it not a good guy I know but a great character and I thought it was just really interesting to see like my.

[00:52:53] Mike is a tough guy right he's super tough and got a really rough exterior we know he's got a soft heart at least when it comes to his granddaughter and his family but we don't see it too much you know he's always got that tough.

[00:53:06] Not with Saul not with Saul oh gosh he hates all right but it was interesting in this moment that they had and it was cool to go see him go back to bag man I didn't know we were going to go back there again so.

[00:53:18] Bad for poor Bob Ode and Kirk having to go back in that desert after his heart attack but it's a great episode so such a great episode one of the one of the best ones for sure.

[00:53:30] But I thought it was interesting because yes Mike has so low respect for Saul at all or Jimmy at this at this point but it was interesting to see how vulnerable he gets in this moment and the contrast between him and Jimmy and what he says is that.

[00:53:48] He would do if he could go back in time and you know it sounds like at first that his like he was going to go back and maybe.

[00:53:58] Where where his son was killed but then he goes back even further and talks about you know not taking that first bribe you know and.

[00:54:09] In that moment it's like he recognized his life and his corruption is what what ended up getting his son killed and the fact that he wish wishes that he could take all of that back and his son have not been killed and he would have never gotten involved with the cartel or any of the drug business.

[00:54:29] I really liked that I like seeing that from Mike and it made it kind of sad to kind of see that that's you know that he did have those regrets not surprising but it was just I don't know kind of made it more sad that you know that's you know seeing where Mike ended up you know later in.

[00:54:45] Breaking bad but I just I really liked that.

[00:54:49] So I think it was you know great.

[00:54:52] You know acted really great and I love that contrast between you know Saul wishing that he could go back and built this time machine and go back to you know like said the Bernie made off and or not bring him out of sorry the.

[00:55:04] Berkshire Hathaway and invest and be like a billionaire.

[00:55:07] So I don't know I really like that I like this little final final scene with Mike and I like that vulnerability that I didn't know he had in him.

[00:55:16] Yeah I think it made sense that he would.

[00:55:21] Because he was at first he started when he asked the time travel question he was like and then he's like let me think about that you know and they're out of the desert there they're having a moment together and.

[00:55:35] You know maybe they're just out of their element a little bit.

[00:55:40] The resolve is a bit weakened or something I mean they're just in a different state but also they didn't show this before when they were in the desert I don't think but they found this water which actually kind of lowers the tension of the earlier episode a little bit because I didn't think they had any water.

[00:55:54] But it makes it I think make more sense that they would take a moment to just get you know after that because they're replenished a little bit and they can rest.

[00:56:03] Anyway also Mike you brought this up a few times remember earlier in the series.

[00:56:09] He said we all make our choices and those choices they put us on a road sometimes those choices seem small but they put you on the road you think about getting off but eventually you're back on it so that whole time travel question really keys in on this thing that Mike's already thought about.

[00:56:27] And he recognizes that this small choice he made back in March 17 1984 to take that bribe put him on this road and so that becomes more significant that he would choose that moment because he's basically saying he regrets his whole life you know the last 40 years or whatever it is.

[00:56:46] That choice road.

[00:56:47] And boy do you appreciate the water in that little scene.

[00:56:55] We didn't even watch the whole episode that episode was years ago but just remember it you're like oh water I mean I remember watching that episode bag man way back and I was feeling perched I think I went and got a glass of wine I don't drink water like ever I don't like water and so I think I was thirsty just watching it like they really did a good job.

[00:57:17] The job of like the dry and the heat you know what do you drink.

[00:57:23] I don't I drink coffee in the morning you need moisture.

[00:57:27] I have a glass of alcohol right here I have that.

[00:57:32] That's between tequila or whiskey.

[00:57:34] That's awesome.

[00:57:35] That what he called the Davis and Maine water bottle that he had to drink his own urine out of is now up for auction.

[00:57:47] Current bid is $200 asking to 2513 days left to go just in case people want to get that one item I kind of don't want.

[00:57:56] I don't think it was real.

[00:57:58] I don't need that.

[00:57:59] Yeah I would love that mug though the world's second best lawyer mug.

[00:58:05] I would love to have that but I'm not spending like $800.

[00:58:09] I know you can go on Etsy and get one for like 25 bucks.

[00:58:13] Yeah I'll probably just get a knockoff but it would be super cool to have like some kind of memorabilia from the show itself.

[00:58:22] That's okay.

[00:58:23] There's like 13 pages of stuff on there but there's like 13 days left in the auction so I'll go back in 13 days and see what's reasonable or not.

[00:58:35] Probably nothing.

[00:58:38] I mean they got this idea to do that they do that with most shows now they have these auctions and auction off all the props.

[00:58:44] We won't tell Jenny whatever you want to get Jason.

[00:58:47] Okay okay.

[00:58:49] Take my bank account.

[00:58:51] All right.

[00:58:53] Next is what we thought Jimmy was doing so.

[00:58:58] The show often tricks us into thinking one thing's happening when it's something else or at least it tries to and they made us think that maybe he was going to throw Kim under the bus and so in service of that we didn't really get to see it's such a big shift for Jimmy to decide.

[00:59:19] Oh wow my whole life I've been lying I'm going to come clean and go to jail for a long time.

[00:59:24] And they had to have that be kind of hidden so that the surprise so it would be a surprise in court.

[00:59:31] And I kind of there is a part of me that wonders if it would have been better to show it since it is such a big pivotal character moment for him.

[00:59:38] Because as it is I didn't fully feel him having that shift but on second watch I think it was pretty clear where it was.

[00:59:45] You know at first he's doing what you just mentioned David his one last scam and.

[00:59:53] You know Marie says Hank and Gomi ended up dead and Saul helped the guy who caused it and he just did it for money and she's absolutely right.

[01:00:03] But he doesn't say that he's still just trying to get out of it with this whole act and everything which is really dark but then when they tell him that Kim confessed.

[01:00:14] To the DA about Howard he just sat there stunned while other characters were talking over each other and I think that was the moment where he changed.

[01:00:25] What do you guys think.

[01:00:27] It seemed pretty evident in his face it the whole facade like the soul thing just dropped like right there in that moment it felt like to me.

[01:00:37] Yeah to me it was a process so that definitely impacted him that moment.

[01:00:41] But then in the conversation on the airplane he got more information.

[01:00:47] And it kind of sounded like before he knew the entire full story he was pretty okay taken as seven year country club deal.

[01:00:55] So I think it was a combination of that impactful learning and then later fuller information.

[01:01:04] Yeah yeah I think that's probably right too.

[01:01:08] When he talks to Bill on the plane he convinces this federal agent or whatever to let him and finds out that Kim confessed to Cheryl.

[01:01:20] That was the new information I think and that Cheryl can take everything she's got.

[01:01:25] And was lawyer shopping at everything.

[01:01:28] Jimmy immediately tells Billy has more on Hamlin.

[01:01:31] And that's really clever because you might think that Jimmy is thinking she's confessing to everything will screw her.

[01:01:42] I'm going to make up some stuff or tell them stuff I didn't already tell them and get even less time.

[01:01:48] That's what they wanted us to think.

[01:01:50] I bet you most of us were sort of like I'm not so sure that's what he's doing but anyway he you know he says I just remembered I got something that'll make their toes curl.

[01:01:57] So his plan is in motion from that moment.

[01:02:00] So I don't think he had to do too much more thinking you know he's already had this plan in mind and Bill says anything that makes their toes curl is bound to jam Kim up if it involves her.

[01:02:10] Oh it involves her so we're supposed to think maybe he's going to screw Kim over to get even more time off but actually his plan already is in motion just to get her to the courthouse so he can come clean in front of her.

[01:02:23] Well and when he called her that phone booth scene when he called her at the sprinkler company and she said Jimmy you need to turn yourself in and he said you first.

[01:02:36] Why don't you yeah.

[01:02:38] And she did and then it implied that okay well she did my turn.

[01:02:44] Yep now I am.

[01:02:45] Yeah and then when Suzanne Erickson the prosecutor calls Kim and tells her Saul was arrested and he's going to give a testimony that affects her personally you know that was also supposed to make us worry for Kim.

[01:03:03] And then you get into the courtroom and the judge is like not so sure about this sweet plea deal that he's going to get and Bill shows Jimmy a note saying don't worry the judge always follows the government sentencing then you're like oh shit it's not going to happen this time.

[01:03:21] And then he goes into his spiel about how scary Walter White was.

[01:03:28] So you're supposed to just think okay he's enacting the plan that he said he was going to do but then he says you know that was my introduction to Walter White I was terrified but not for long.

[01:03:41] That night I saw opportunity to shot a big money that was such a great moment but before when he told that speech when he was saying it in the deposition of the judge.

[01:03:50] And he said you know I was hog tied and driven to the desert and then kidnapped by two men they pulled my hood off I was kneeling in front of an open grave.

[01:04:00] It's so funny because that scene when it happened seemed pretty cartoonish but when you hear him talking about it it sounds pretty terrifying.

[01:04:11] You know I love that.

[01:04:14] And he was terrified momentarily in that scene but not because of Walter.

[01:04:18] No I was thinking Walu was.

[01:04:21] Yeah that's right as soon as he found out it was Walter then he felt at ease.

[01:04:26] Well I mean as soon as he knew didn't have anything to do with Lalo he thought oh well now I know I can talk my way out of this like he always does.

[01:04:35] That's true yeah.

[01:04:37] And I love when he starts like he's just going on about how he was in it for the money and Bill Oakley is like your honor I'd like to petition you withdraw from this case.

[01:04:49] Denied.

[01:04:51] Oh my God poor Oakley I mean that was another one of his last schemes was to screw one over on Oakley one more time.

[01:05:00] Little bit yeah.

[01:05:02] I love that they brought him back into it genius.

[01:05:04] Very cool.

[01:05:06] And I yeah just seeing him squirm and when he they gave him the 7.5 year deal and then he gets the prison that he wants to and they're like do we have a deal and Jimmy's not saying anything and Bill's like yes we have a deal.

[01:05:24] Get that in writing.

[01:05:26] But I also thought it was interesting that the big trial in the final episode of Better Call Saul was in large part about the events of Breaking Bad.

[01:05:36] That's really interesting and I wonder if that makes people who've never seen Breaking Bad want to watch it even more.

[01:05:44] Yeah I guess that's that's all I had to say about that but yeah they just tried to get us to think that he was going to screw Kim over and really it was the opposite.

[01:05:52] Did either of you for a moment think that maybe he was going to try to screw Kim over.

[01:05:57] It didn't really make sense what he was doing because like he's got the plea deal and he starts telling his story.

[01:06:03] What's the ice cream.

[01:06:05] Exonerate himself and it's annoying the judge obviously so yeah but yeah I wasn't just wasn't quite sure.

[01:06:12] What about on the airplane though when he said he had more information and.

[01:06:16] Oh yeah I think it was possible.

[01:06:17] I mean he didn't feel a lot of remorse for Chuck in the moment you know somebody crosses him or causes him a problem so we've seen that reaction before so I think it would have been believable.

[01:06:29] Yeah I wonder I think I wondered like oh shit is he but then I'm I think for the most part I thought I don't think that would be how they would end this.

[01:06:39] Hope not anyway.

[01:06:43] Okay where are we.

[01:06:45] Reema no.

[01:06:47] Yeah no it's David sorry.

[01:06:50] So I want to talk about the time machine and we've talked some about the this really was Sol's theme throughout this episode right it comes up with Mike in one era it comes up with Walt in a different era.

[01:07:05] And it comes up with Chuck so like theme in three different eras.

[01:07:09] You know mostly through these flashbacks but then in the Chuck flashback we see the book The Time Machine and I believe we saw that book at other times in better call Saul was in Jimmy's apartment.

[01:07:25] At least what I think it was in the opening scene of this season in Saul's place when they were cleaning out.

[01:07:32] Yeah I think it was in Jimmy's apartment too.

[01:07:35] It was in Jimmy's apartment in the first season Jimmy's reading it in bed.

[01:07:40] Yeah so I think we can infer that the book is what put this question into his mind or this way to frame.

[01:07:48] Paired with Chuck saying you can change your path.

[01:07:53] Right so what actually happened in The Time Machine the book.

[01:07:58] The Time Traveler actually goes 800,000 years into the future.

[01:08:04] So this is a book written in Victorian era England and it is widely interpreted as a discussion of class contrast or class conflict.

[01:08:17] So in the book there's this beautiful sophisticated race the L. Y.

[01:08:22] And the more savage and the primitive race the more locks who live underground and you know this is understood to mean that the descendants of the upper and lower classes respectively.

[01:08:38] So it's social commentary and Wells himself grew up lower to middle class so his sympathies here are not with the beautiful race they're with the downtrodden race.

[01:08:55] You know in his era was a big widening of this gap between top and bottom rich and poor kind of where we're heading these days that's for another day.

[01:09:05] But I thought what was interesting about this is this is really a continual theme running through the entire Better Call Saul series.

[01:09:16] And it's a big deal with Jimmy himself it's like a chip on his shoulder it's like him versus the.

[01:09:23] So here's some of the ways in which I think it was expressed.

[01:09:27] So first of all you have Jimmy versus the arrogance condescension and stuffy culture of the law profession Chuck Howard HHM Davis and Maine where he doesn't fit in.

[01:09:40] You know it's all these whitey twity people looking down on him especially his own brother.

[01:09:45] He wasn't getting it or even feels it when they're not actually doing that.

[01:09:49] Right.

[01:09:50] And he's very sensitive about it and remember the whole screed from him to the scholarship candidate who was turned down at HHM and she had a little dirt on her and saying you know you can't let these people spit on you and all this stuff.

[01:10:04] So it's a big part of his character but there's other ways this crops in it's a big part of Kim's character too like she resents Howard and the silver spoon inheritance of the law and HHM.

[01:10:20] It comes into this episode with Walt.

[01:10:23] Wait before you move on from Jimmy and Kim also they've both decided to help criminals and people of little means and stuff like that.

[01:10:33] Absolutely yes rather than like they both have their chance to move into the upper crust.

[01:10:40] Yeah.

[01:10:42] And they both decide not to your right.

[01:10:43] So we explore Walt's resentment of Gretchen and Elliot who become these billionaires and that they look down on them and all this stuff.

[01:10:53] I think we even see it in Gus Fring story.

[01:10:59] So it's a different kind of class structure but Gus and his partner Max want to join the cartel club with Don Aladeo and the Salamancas and the in crowd of the drug trade.

[01:11:14] And they are rejected to the point of one of them being murdered.

[01:11:18] And the other one being continually denigrated so that was sort of another part of class struggle.

[01:11:25] And I think what we see with Bill Oakley being brought in so he's kind of comic relief and that was a lot of fun.

[01:11:36] But he kind of represents what those royal classes like Chuck want people like Saul to be.

[01:11:44] He's this like boring downtrodden guy who never makes any waves and he may represent his poor clients who deserve a defense but you know.

[01:11:55] He doesn't ruffle any feathers. He doesn't bother the royal class.

[01:12:00] Kind of the anti-Sol.

[01:12:05] And then the whole story of Breaking Bad opens with this family who doesn't have enough money to and health care.

[01:12:15] Yeah, big expenses.

[01:12:17] Big time.

[01:12:19] I think Vince Gilligan hates rich people basically is what this is all about.

[01:12:23] I'm just kidding. Go on.

[01:12:26] I mean there's definitely a class struggle story that goes through this whole thing.

[01:12:31] And I think that's what the time machine was brought in to symbolize.

[01:12:38] You know, Saul drives the time machine in the other direction to look at regrets and we've talked all about that.

[01:12:45] But in the forward direction what that book was all about was class struggle.

[01:12:48] That's really cool. Yeah, because I would have never thought about that.

[01:12:52] I would have just thought oh yeah it's about time travel.

[01:12:54] That's it.

[01:12:56] It's a heavy book and I'm like not a laugh a minute read.

[01:13:02] Yeah, it's kind of horrific if I remember right. It's been a long time.

[01:13:05] Okay, your turn Mima.

[01:13:11] Well, I would like to just have a moment of appreciation again for Brian Cranston's portrayal of Walter White.

[01:13:20] So good.

[01:13:22] In this series we talked a little bit about it.

[01:13:25] His final performance perhaps.

[01:13:27] Yeah, perhaps I'm assuming.

[01:13:29] But we talked a little bit about it whenever him and Jesse made their cameo appearances in Breaking Bad that episode couple episodes back whenever that was.

[01:13:44] He slides into that role so well.

[01:13:48] And I really loved their lines to each other.

[01:13:51] Early on Jimmy McGill was or Saul Jean whatever was talking to Jeffy and his partner saying a 50 year old chemistry teacher walks into my office.

[01:14:02] Guy can't pay his mortgage.

[01:14:04] A year later the guy has a pile of cash the size of a Volkswagen.

[01:14:06] Now that's crazy.

[01:14:08] And then Walt in this episode looks at Saul and says, so you've always been like this.

[01:14:14] I loved that so much because they totally just boiled their shows down to a few sentences, which was this hilarious way of kind of this whole rivalry between Walt and Saul.

[01:14:29] I thought it was just absolutely great.

[01:14:32] And I loved Walt getting so mad at Saul about the concept of time machines.

[01:14:40] I know.

[01:14:41] He's such a dick.

[01:14:43] He is such a condescending bastard.

[01:14:45] Just to answer the fucking question.

[01:14:47] I mean he's totally right that it's about regret, but I so love that he was the same giant asshole that he was at the end of Breaking Bad.

[01:14:54] It was fun to watch.

[01:14:56] But what a dick.

[01:14:58] Come on.

[01:15:00] Yeah, and he was for so much of it, especially to Saul.

[01:15:02] But a very particular kind.

[01:15:04] He's so pedantic.

[01:15:06] Yeah, pedantic and superior and everything.

[01:15:07] Yeah, he was so freaking condescending to everyone and especially to Saul and getting mad at him about even bringing up.

[01:15:15] And the concept of time machines.

[01:15:19] And then he tells him stay in your lane.

[01:15:24] And also he takes what was a little like clicky sound and just turns it into this unbearable racket.

[01:15:30] That was another callback to the fly.

[01:15:34] Yes, obsessive.

[01:15:35] Yeah.

[01:15:37] I mean that's Walt in a nutshell and he slid right back into that so seamlessly in my opinion.

[01:15:43] The fact that he kept tinkering with that damn water heater, which was a mild nuisance.

[01:15:48] It was like it Saul didn't even really he's like what that little clicky sound for that because it was like.

[01:15:55] Yeah, and then saying to Saul when he's like well why didn't you tell me about this we could have done something with this you know about when he was talking about having left.

[01:16:05] The company with Gretchen and Elliott and such.

[01:16:09] He's like why didn't you tell me that we could have done something with this and he's like as if I'd have you as my lawyer and it was just like.

[01:16:15] And it just like the defeat on Saul and he's just like yeah okay and then that I think that's when he kind of I think maybe he could have been a little bit more open and vulnerable in that moment when they were having that conversation about the time machine and the regrets and what would you change.

[01:16:31] But I think that because of Walt's attitude towards him.

[01:16:34] I think it changed how he responded in that moment but yeah maybe I just I thought it was really great and I like that they didn't show Walter is like this hero in that moment that he was still that same asshole condescending jerk you know that we knew at the end.

[01:16:54] I'm glad that they didn't try to shine like a light and like Walter White he's still still that character.

[01:17:01] Yeah it's the only thing is people watching this show who haven't seen Breaking Bad I think would see this and be like why do I want to watch a show about this guy and to that I would say he's a fascinating fascinating character study in and of himself for sure.

[01:17:19] And to notice how you feel about him changes over the course of the series but also there are other people to root for and that's huge with Breaking Bad at least it was for me without that I wouldn't have like the series as much.

[01:17:33] Yeah and I have to say and this is not a criticism of anyone it's a perfectly reasonable choice but I think in and I don't think we knew this when the show started.

[01:17:43] But I think it's honestly tough to watch the show without having seen Breaking Bad. I mean they really in the end wrote that two shows to intertwine their kind of mirror images and two halves of one story.

[01:17:58] And I think it's just tough there's just too much that doesn't resonate if you don't know the other one.

[01:18:06] But I also suspect because I always liked Better Call Saul but I've come to like it more even more and more to the point where I like it almost as much as Breaking Bad.

[01:18:17] I still feel like Breaking Bad is the better show but for me not by much and I think that people who watched this show first and then go to Breaking Bad I wouldn't be surprised if most of them like Better Call Saul better.

[01:18:28] And they're going to say things like it's not very subtle and man they use violence a lot for thrills like do they need they feel like they have to compensate for not being able to you know do it in other ways and things like that you know where Better Call Saul showed more deafness you might say.

[01:18:47] Yeah I mean it's an unanswerable question and yes it's true I think whatever you consume first in love is the thing you're going to love more.

[01:18:54] I get your point.

[01:18:55] But I also would say part of loving Better Call Saul at least for me is that they did bring in the history of all these incredible characters that were built and that we came to know in the other show.

[01:19:14] And Better Call Saul is its own thing like it doesn't rest on Breaking Bad and it's not a pale imitation or anything like that.

[01:19:22] It's a great show of its own but they had a lot to work with there.

[01:19:26] I mean like everything that happens in this show you know the whole you know these characters backstories and you know so much about them.

[01:19:33] They didn't have to build that.

[01:19:35] And as they've said on Better Call Saul Insider this week you could have Breaking Bad without Better Call Saul but you could not have Better Call Saul without Breaking Bad.

[01:19:46] I think that's true.

[01:19:48] But I also think it's really fascinating that some people including some of our listeners have watched this show and now they're planning on watching Breaking Bad because they're going to get to have an experience that none of us will ever get to have which is to experience them in that order.

[01:20:00] And I bet it'll be interesting in and of itself that experience too.

[01:20:04] Yeah, I think so too.

[01:20:05] I'll be interested to hear what people have to say about that.

[01:20:08] And it's still a great show.

[01:20:09] It's not like it's not going to be great to watch it.

[01:20:12] Yeah.

[01:20:13] And it might have its own rewards when you see it that way.

[01:20:16] I don't know.

[01:20:17] We've spoiled it all so there's that.

[01:20:20] But hopefully they haven't listened to us.

[01:20:22] Yeah, I hope they haven't listened to us.

[01:20:24] Daphne too.

[01:20:25] Yeah.

[01:20:26] Daphne has not listened to us.

[01:20:28] She wrote in but she doesn't listen.

[01:20:31] Well, but she's watching the show.

[01:20:34] Yeah, she's watching in the opposite order.

[01:20:36] It also occurred to me too that and I think you were saying this, Reema, that they distilled the show down to a few sentences and Better Call Saul, which has a different pace, you know, spins things out more slowly, more subtly.

[01:20:52] But all of Jimmy's like insincere speech was boiled down and breaking bad by I'm terribly, terribly ashamed of my actions.

[01:21:04] And when they're writing the script to say to how they're going to explain his fugue state or whatever, I don't even remember what they were explaining.

[01:21:13] But he says I'm terribly, terribly ashamed of my actions.

[01:21:16] And you think for a second he sincerely apologizes to her and I'm really sorry for everything I've put you through.

[01:21:25] And then he's like, how was that?

[01:21:27] Oh my gosh, I love that episode so much.

[01:21:32] He was so freaking irritated with Skylar when they're going through that whole script.

[01:21:35] He's like, why would I say I would never say terribly twice?

[01:21:38] Why would I do that?

[01:21:39] That's right.

[01:21:40] Yeah, too terribly.

[01:21:41] Yeah.

[01:21:42] It's like, I would never say that and she's like, you know, I'm trying to make it sound sincere and, you know, she's being very serious.

[01:21:48] So it was just a really great episode.

[01:21:50] Yeah.

[01:21:51] It's them literally writing the insincere speech that Saul is capable of just giving off the cuff.

[01:21:56] Yes.

[01:21:58] So good.

[01:22:00] Anything else about Walt?

[01:22:01] Rema?

[01:22:03] No, just really great to have that scene again.

[01:22:06] You know, that's him in a nutshell.

[01:22:08] And I just, you know, I thought it was great.

[01:22:11] Brian Cranston just slid right back into that.

[01:22:14] So perfect.

[01:22:15] And I loved it so much to love there.

[01:22:19] And he was already old enough when he played Walt the first time that he doesn't, it's not distracting like with some of the other characters.

[01:22:27] Maybe if you had them side by side, it would be.

[01:22:29] But for me, I don't notice that he's a different age.

[01:22:32] No, it didn't bother me.

[01:22:37] Well, my next one was also Walt's and we've covered a lot of it, but there's just a couple more things I wanted to mention, which is one, Jimmy says he would have done something with the gray matter thing like wrongful termination or whatever.

[01:22:51] And Walt says you'd have been the last lawyer I'd have gone to.

[01:22:55] But also what Walt doesn't say is that Gretchen and Elliot have offered him his place back.

[01:23:02] They've offered to pay for all his medical care.

[01:23:04] They would welcome him with open arms.

[01:23:06] Fire him back.

[01:23:07] You'd have health insurance.

[01:23:09] So there's that.

[01:23:11] But also saying you'd have been the last lawyer I'd have gone to.

[01:23:14] Sounds like something Chuck would say.

[01:23:16] And also, so you were always like this.

[01:23:18] And I think, I mean, this show has such a great understanding of psychology as far as I'm concerned that we land ourselves in unhealthy dynamics that we experienced in our childhood because they feel familiar and comfortable.

[01:23:31] And so I think Jimmy unconsciously sought out a similar paradigm with Walter White as he had with Chuck, the smart guy who looks down on him and treats him the way that he deep down feels about himself.

[01:23:45] You know, just makes sense that he would gravitate to a guy like Walter White unconsciously because he's got a similar vibe to Chuck in some ways.

[01:23:56] And that whole flashback takes place during the events of the episode called Granite State where they're in the best quality vacuum basement waiting to be taken to their new lives.

[01:24:07] And this was the first scene of the Walt and Jesse scenes, the three scenes one with Walt and Jesse one with Jesse one just bought this was the first one that was shot.

[01:24:20] And this is the one to me that felt the most straight out of Breaking Bad.

[01:24:23] And I liked them all, but it also makes sense why in the other Walt scene that they had to remind him to be less Heisenberg and more buffoonie buffoonish season two.

[01:24:35] Yes, he's in two Walt because here he's like full Heisenberg asshole.

[01:24:40] But I loved it.

[01:24:42] I agree with you.

[01:24:43] This was the most genuine of the three scenes.

[01:24:46] Like it fit the best into both the old show and the new show.

[01:24:50] All right, next, David.

[01:24:55] So this is really my last major point.

[01:24:58] But given that this was the last episode, I just wanted to talk about some of my favorite moments from the series and favorite episodes.

[01:25:06] There were way too many to go into.

[01:25:09] I'm saying get my tissue ready.

[01:25:11] Yeah, so I just picked five things.

[01:25:15] The first thing for me was how they started the series.

[01:25:20] So I think that was very difficult, a very difficult task for writers and producers.

[01:25:28] So they're coming off this other series, which is arguably the best series ever made with one of the most iconic characters ever created with Walt.

[01:25:40] And they know that they have a coterie of fans who are both excited for this new thing, but also are going to judge it against the other show.

[01:25:48] 100%.

[01:25:50] And it's a prequel.

[01:25:52] So they have to go create a story that makes sense and fits in with the later events, but also is able to stand on its own.

[01:25:59] And is exciting even though you know who lives.

[01:26:03] Yeah.

[01:26:04] And it's just as interesting and funny and all that stuff.

[01:26:07] So I think that was a really hard task.

[01:26:10] And it was just totally subverted expectations.

[01:26:14] I think their original idea was leaning more towards comedy.

[01:26:18] And also, we know it's a spin-off about Saul Goodman and it's called Better Call Saul.

[01:26:25] But when the show first starts, it's like, hi, I'm Jimmy McGill.

[01:26:30] Who the hell is Jimmy McGill? You know, you're thinking because you're looking for Saul and it just takes you on this journey that.

[01:26:37] I mean, he did say it in Breaking Bad, but it was a throwaway line.

[01:26:41] They did about as good of a job as you could do with a task given.

[01:26:45] Yeah. I mean, amazing.

[01:26:47] And the series started off like I was hooked right away.

[01:26:52] And that first season was like the Kettlemans, Nacho.

[01:26:56] We get Daniel, HHM and Kim, the whole Chuck, you know,

[01:27:03] Chuck dynamic scene.

[01:27:06] And I just felt like they start off with a bang.

[01:27:09] So kudos to them.

[01:27:10] They got me from episode one.

[01:27:14] The second thing I was remembering that I loved was in season one,

[01:27:24] episode six, episode is called 5.0 and it's Mike's backstory with his son.

[01:27:32] I just love that episode.

[01:27:34] It was a Breaking Bad quality episode more in the Breaking Bad style with a sort of that vibe to it.

[01:27:43] But just a high bar as good as any Breaking Bad episode and the backstory for this character that I think he loved so much or I did,

[01:27:53] even though, you know, he's a mixed character at best.

[01:27:58] The other thing about that is I just loved all the Mike exploits in general.

[01:28:04] I love them in Breaking Bad, but I also love them in this series.

[01:28:07] So, you know, the way he gets the bodyguard job for Colin Robinson by taking down two gunmen with a Pimento sandwich.

[01:28:20] The whole thread where he figures out the trackers in his gas cap and then reverses that scheme to find the people who are following him.

[01:28:31] How he takes out the Salamanca drug truck or plants drugs on it so it will be caught at the border.

[01:28:40] He stops the lullaby putting chewing gum in the ticket machine.

[01:28:44] So, eventually, which actually also is in the past we get a lot more of these kind of things of Mike and Breaking Bad, but I just loved it.

[01:28:54] Yes.

[01:28:56] Third one is just Jimmy's schemes.

[01:28:59] His creative schemes big and small, starting with small stuff like duplicating Howard's appearance in his billboard.

[01:29:08] Oh, the Hamelons' age.

[01:29:12] The whole Mesa Verde one was pretty great.

[01:29:15] Changing the address.

[01:29:17] Oh yeah.

[01:29:18] I mean amazing.

[01:29:20] That was great.

[01:29:22] The Ice Station Zebra associate schemes with Victor and Giselle, which really were just for fun.

[01:29:29] There's a Firo and a ho.

[01:29:31] Yeah.

[01:29:32] The Bar Association hearing with Chuck, just sneaking the thing into his pocket.

[01:29:38] He snuck onto a military base to film a commercial.

[01:29:43] He staged the whole planning of drugs at the golf course.

[01:29:46] And the military base guy came back later.

[01:29:50] Was it this season?

[01:29:51] Maybe it was last season and was just like disgusted with Saul.

[01:29:56] Yeah, when he wanted him to apologize on this.

[01:29:59] So he would have been happy to see what Saul did at the end here.

[01:30:02] Yeah.

[01:30:03] And then ultimately of course the master caper that took down Howard.

[01:30:06] It ended tragically, but it was quite a scheme.

[01:30:09] Yeah.

[01:30:10] Well then there's this season with the, well I guess that was the season,

[01:30:14] but the whole department store thing was pretty cool too.

[01:30:17] Yeah, that was a great one too.

[01:30:20] Fourth one I noted down was the Werner part of the story.

[01:30:25] So that which was about half a season and culminates in the two episodes

[01:30:30] of Peter Sane and Winner at the end of season four.

[01:30:34] So I love the Werner character, the sort of bromance with him and Mike

[01:30:39] and that whole plot line, but it ends in this whole cat and mouse game

[01:30:44] between Mike and Lalo of trying to find Werner, the super lab,

[01:30:49] figure out what's going on.

[01:30:51] And again just riveting as good as anything that happened

[01:30:54] in either series although again a very sad end.

[01:31:00] And then the last thing I wanted to mention is just the distinctive style

[01:31:03] of this show.

[01:31:05] Picking up on the Breaking Bad style, maybe even more stylized

[01:31:10] than Breaking Bad.

[01:31:12] Had a breezy feel a lot of times like a cool breezy feel.

[01:31:16] Yeah and they have these amazing opening shots.

[01:31:19] They have the like the long tracking shot at the border facility

[01:31:23] that opens one episode, montages like it's a perfect day

[01:31:28] montage after Howard gets murdered.

[01:31:31] All kinds of creative shots with inanimate objects.

[01:31:35] Jimmy and Kim brushing their teeth.

[01:31:37] Yeah, unusual perspectives, unusual camera angles.

[01:31:41] They just do it better than any other show.

[01:31:44] And then they also had all the call outs to the blue meth

[01:31:49] and they have the TV show and movie references.

[01:31:52] They have the evolution of Saul's clothes right into the very last episode.

[01:31:57] I would say this universe may be a cooler style than any other show

[01:32:01] I've ever seen.

[01:32:02] Yeah, I mean Breaking Bad has some great camera work too

[01:32:05] and one thing that it did better than any show

[01:32:09] is these beautiful New Mexico vistas.

[01:32:12] Even Better Call Saul didn't really do that as much.

[01:32:17] And maybe they had to go there because of budget reasons

[01:32:19] or whatever but man did they make the most of it.

[01:32:22] Oh man they got lucky that that budget thing happened.

[01:32:25] Yeah, it made the show so distinctive.

[01:32:27] It doesn't look like anywhere else.

[01:32:31] That was so cool David thanks for taking us back to some of those moments.

[01:32:36] Walk down memory lane.

[01:32:38] They're definitely going to study this show.

[01:32:41] It's like a master class.

[01:32:44] They're gonna be analyzing this in school.

[01:32:49] How to direct and cinematography

[01:32:52] and just everything that went into making this show

[01:32:57] I know is going to be studied for future creators.

[01:33:05] Yeah, I mean a show that created a style all its own

[01:33:08] really has a consistent voice all its own

[01:33:11] but then also just the attention to detail is incredible.

[01:33:14] Yeah, that's what I love in every aspect.

[01:33:18] Do you have any more points Rima?

[01:33:22] The Chuck flashback I know we've talked a little bit about it

[01:33:25] but I thought it was, you know this Chuck flashback is kind of where

[01:33:31] it's like that time machine moment for Jimmy.

[01:33:34] We had a flash of the book which we've talked about

[01:33:36] and I was trying to think of like when this took place

[01:33:40] and it almost feels like that scene took place

[01:33:44] the day before the first episode of the show.

[01:33:48] In this episode Jimmy says,

[01:33:50] I'll see you tomorrow Chuck and I might have the Financial Times.

[01:33:54] The pilot episode Jimmy comes in

[01:33:57] and gives him the paper and Chuck says,

[01:33:59] oh Financial Times and Jimmy says,

[01:34:01] I know you missed it so I figured what the heck.

[01:34:04] So it feels like that's kind of like the time

[01:34:07] that we're kind of seeing there.

[01:34:11] I've loved the conversation with Chuck and Jimmy here

[01:34:15] and that dynamic and I wonder if in that moment

[01:34:19] if Jimmy had taken Chuck up on his offer

[01:34:23] to look over his cases with him,

[01:34:26] would that have maybe led them to maybe mend

[01:34:29] their relationship a little bit?

[01:34:31] I don't know but you know they were talking about

[01:34:35] or you know it's kind of talking about this different path

[01:34:38] when Chuck or you know says that to Jimmy.

[01:34:40] You know this was a different path

[01:34:42] that both of them could have taken

[01:34:44] but they just let it kind of slip by.

[01:34:47] It didn't feel that momentous to me

[01:34:49] but maybe it did feel like a shame

[01:34:51] that Jimmy didn't take him up on it

[01:34:55] but Chuck just seemed lonely so I don't know, yeah.

[01:34:58] Yeah, I don't know.

[01:35:01] And you know I think Jimmy did a lot

[01:35:03] of what he did for Chuck out of obligation.

[01:35:05] He said, you're my brother.

[01:35:07] He says, you do the same for me and I go,

[01:35:09] no he wouldn't and you can even see Chuck

[01:35:12] kind of look down a little bit

[01:35:14] at like he was saying that exact thought in his head

[01:35:17] like no, no I wouldn't

[01:35:19] but I do think that this scene for me

[01:35:23] kind of helped humanize Chuck just a little bit.

[01:35:26] You know that Jimmy got caught up

[01:35:29] in doing things that he thought that he should do

[01:35:32] that he didn't think about what he needed to do

[01:35:34] and I think that he treated Chuck like a burden

[01:35:37] and I just think it kind of

[01:35:41] put a different light on their relationship a little bit

[01:35:43] because Jimmy was also responsible

[01:35:45] for that barrier between him and Chuck.

[01:35:47] You know Chuck, I think in this moment

[01:35:49] really did try to have some authentic communication

[01:35:52] with Jimmy and he just kind of shut it down

[01:35:56] but Chuck looks really bad here too

[01:35:59] because well like I said when Jimmy is like

[01:36:02] hey, I know that you do the same for me

[01:36:04] we know that that's absolutely not true at all

[01:36:08] so they both come out

[01:36:11] both looking good and bad simultaneously

[01:36:15] in just this short scene that they had

[01:36:17] and I really like seeing Chuck again.

[01:36:21] Yeah, they had to rebuild that hole

[01:36:23] because Peter Gold had told the

[01:36:26] like prop department or whatever

[01:36:28] now we don't need that set anymore

[01:36:30] and then oh wait can you rebuild some of it?

[01:36:32] Just the kitchen.

[01:36:34] Yeah, but for me

[01:36:38] it was a reminder of Jimmy at his most lovable

[01:36:41] you know and I think it was good to touch into that

[01:36:45] because then it's a reminder right before you see him

[01:36:49] kind of self-actualized at the end

[01:36:52] which includes that lovable part.

[01:36:55] He's really doing something good here with nothing in return.

[01:36:58] Yeah.

[01:37:00] It was when he was just helping his brother out of

[01:37:03] sheer love of his brother.

[01:37:05] And we've talked about parallels between characters

[01:37:07] so often on this show and I know we've talked about this one

[01:37:10] but there's a Chuck-Walt parallel too

[01:37:13] because Chuck, his ego is so big

[01:37:16] that he just cannot let his brother be

[01:37:19] even in his profession.

[01:37:22] Cannot let him shine at all.

[01:37:25] Yeah, yep.

[01:37:27] And he's jealous of him at the same time

[01:37:32] because Mom liked him best.

[01:37:35] Oh no, not our little Jimmy.

[01:37:40] Anything else on Chuck?

[01:37:42] Nope.

[01:37:43] Okay, I want to, I have one more point about Kim

[01:37:47] who after coming clean is ready to

[01:37:50] dip her toe back into the world of helping people

[01:37:53] and she goes to this place that's kind of

[01:37:56] seemingly like the place she wanted to set up

[01:37:59] where underprivileged people in trouble can get free legal help

[01:38:02] and I think she's starting,

[01:38:05] she's glad to start with something as small

[01:38:08] I guess you know you could say as answering phones

[01:38:11] and maybe doing some filing

[01:38:13] because maybe she needs to start slow

[01:38:15] and feel her way into it

[01:38:16] always check to make sure that her motives are pure, you know

[01:38:19] because that's why she

[01:38:21] and to feel that she's worthy of it

[01:38:23] but I do think the idea is eventually

[01:38:25] she'll be this like powerful force for good again, right?

[01:38:27] That's what it seemed like to me. She's back on the path.

[01:38:29] I thought so.

[01:38:31] It was my hope for her.

[01:38:33] I think I talked in the last episode

[01:38:35] that we did, I don't remember

[01:38:37] but my hope for her was that she would

[01:38:40] do something like you know, seeing it.

[01:38:42] Just like this?

[01:38:43] Yeah, seeing what her life was like there in Florida

[01:38:46] and it was just not fulfilling at all

[01:38:48] and I'm glad that she was

[01:38:50] that was my hope was that she would find some way back

[01:38:53] to either in the legal world

[01:38:55] or finding some way to help people using that

[01:38:58] brilliant legal mind of hers to help people

[01:39:01] that's what she was really driven to do

[01:39:03] was to help people that couldn't afford

[01:39:05] a great defense, you know

[01:39:08] and I love that.

[01:39:10] I was so happy when I saw her walk in that office

[01:39:12] so yeah.

[01:39:13] Imagine the impact she's going to make on that place.

[01:39:16] Yes.

[01:39:17] Yeah, right.

[01:39:19] And at the end

[01:39:22] just more Kim stuff

[01:39:24] she comes and visits Jimmy in jail

[01:39:26] and she pretends to be his lawyer

[01:39:29] because her New Mexico bar card doesn't have

[01:39:31] an expiration date so she's still breaking the law

[01:39:33] I think.

[01:39:34] It was Kim's final con.

[01:39:36] Yeah, right.

[01:39:37] And that's where we find out that he got

[01:39:39] 86 years but with good behavior

[01:39:41] and he knows and

[01:39:43] I think, you know

[01:39:45] that's it's great to see a little book

[01:39:47] and because they always smoked together

[01:39:50] and I like how he held her hands as

[01:39:53] she was helping him light his cigarettes.

[01:39:55] I think it was also that

[01:39:57] that he the point was that he got to spend

[01:39:59] a little time with her as

[01:40:01] a fully integrated honest man

[01:40:03] which he's never done before

[01:40:05] and I don't know

[01:40:07] I might just be bringing that into it

[01:40:09] but there was also like I thought

[01:40:11] at the end of the series

[01:40:13] that maybe it would turn to color

[01:40:15] because he would find his mojo or something

[01:40:17] and there wasn't a big moment of color

[01:40:19] but there was that little light of the cigarette

[01:40:21] and

[01:40:23] yeah, and that might be just

[01:40:25] the sweetness of Jimmy and Kim

[01:40:27] but also I thought about it

[01:40:29] probably too much but color in this show

[01:40:31] actually can represent being bad

[01:40:33] because Saul is the most colorful one of all

[01:40:35] and here it's the end of a cigarette

[01:40:37] which is bad, you should not smoke

[01:40:39] but in the grand scheme compared to everything else

[01:40:41] on the show maybe it's not that bad

[01:40:43] and it just represents the bond that they have

[01:40:45] which was around bad stuff by the way

[01:40:47] yeah I thought it represented

[01:40:49] a little bit of their sparks or vibes

[01:40:51] and it was also a little

[01:40:53] tiny call out to the old world

[01:40:55] which was in color

[01:40:57] right, right

[01:40:59] but it's better to be more sober

[01:41:01] for Jimmy at the end

[01:41:03] in black and white I think

[01:41:05] and the finger gesture is a similar

[01:41:07] little nod to the old world

[01:41:09] but I

[01:41:11] they said

[01:41:13] Bob Orenkirk on Better Call Saul Insider

[01:41:15] thought he thought that meant

[01:41:17] like what we had fun didn't we

[01:41:19] and they also filmed Kim

[01:41:21] doing it back but they

[01:41:23] didn't include it because they didn't want people

[01:41:25] to think it meant they had some

[01:41:27] scheme going or something

[01:41:29] like drawing, can't like

[01:41:31] I think they wanted to make sure that Kim

[01:41:33] wasn't

[01:41:35] or that they were alluding to Kim was still like

[01:41:37] playing the game

[01:41:39] but she did give it to him

[01:41:41] in a subtle way

[01:41:43] she did it with her right hand

[01:41:45] if you watched the shot when they

[01:41:47] after Jimmy does it to her there's a shot

[01:41:49] where they pan out

[01:41:51] and her right hand has

[01:41:53] like two fingers pointing

[01:41:55] they're pointing down but it's just a very subtle way

[01:41:57] of like an acknowledgement

[01:41:59] so instead of doing the full on

[01:42:01] the side there

[01:42:03] so do you guys think that

[01:42:06] Kim is going to

[01:42:08] stay in contact with Jimmy or not

[01:42:10] they left it

[01:42:12] pretty open

[01:42:14] I think

[01:42:16] yeah I think they leave that as an unanswered question

[01:42:18] probably not right away

[01:42:20] would be my guess maybe later

[01:42:22] in life

[01:42:24] I was also gonna say that there is another

[01:42:26] mirror image here which

[01:42:28] this show does so often of

[01:42:30] them smoking the

[01:42:32] cigarette in the jail cell

[01:42:34] was very much like them

[01:42:36] smoking the cigarette in the garage

[01:42:38] at HHM which is

[01:42:40] where we first really see

[01:42:42] them having a connection

[01:42:44] yeah

[01:42:46] that might even be in the first Kim

[01:42:48] it was the first episode

[01:42:50] when they're sharing the cigarette

[01:42:52] in the parking garage mirrored

[01:42:54] that image there in the final episode

[01:42:56] it was almost seen

[01:42:58] just yeah

[01:43:00] exact same

[01:43:02] I think it was perfect

[01:43:04] same to people, same to

[01:43:06] action very different circumstance

[01:43:08] yes

[01:43:12] let's move on to some notes David

[01:43:16] I've got a few

[01:43:18] so just one little detail I loved

[01:43:20] was

[01:43:22] Bill Oakley answering the phone

[01:43:24] William Oakley and associates trust experience

[01:43:26] trust Oakley

[01:43:28] it's like his lame version of

[01:43:30] speedy justice for you

[01:43:32] I just love that he's the anti-sall

[01:43:34] in every way including the dumb

[01:43:36] slogan

[01:43:38] Bluebell

[01:43:40] mint chocolate chip

[01:43:42] mint chocolate chip is my favorite flavor

[01:43:44] too

[01:43:46] although here in the Bay Area we have a different brand

[01:43:48] that we love

[01:43:50] which one

[01:43:52] Strauss

[01:43:54] yeah

[01:43:56] Dairy up in the North Bay maybe

[01:43:58] but amazing

[01:44:00] mint chip

[01:44:02] but this was a call out

[01:44:04] I thought to the

[01:44:06] if you remember the scene when they go

[01:44:08] to a hotel

[01:44:10] when they're avoiding Lolo

[01:44:12] they go to a fancy hotel

[01:44:14] after the scene in which Kim talks

[01:44:16] him out of

[01:44:18] doing anything to them

[01:44:20] and then they order an ice cream bar

[01:44:22] up to their room which is very

[01:44:24] decadent

[01:44:26] and they mention the mint chip

[01:44:28] and I just feel like

[01:44:30] it symbolizes an escape from

[01:44:32] reality which is what that whole

[01:44:34] hotel trip was

[01:44:36] and kind of what this idea of getting

[01:44:38] ice cream every Friday in prison is

[01:44:40] like it's not really like

[01:44:42] being in prison

[01:44:44] wasn't he off mint chip for a while after

[01:44:46] that

[01:44:48] he had a mint chip and it fell and the ants swarmed around

[01:44:50] it and then he had

[01:44:52] ordered something else at some point

[01:44:54] and I think he said in the hotel

[01:44:56] scene I'm talking about skip the mint chip

[01:44:58] yeah

[01:45:00] because of that but he's back on it

[01:45:02] because then he had had that right, that terrible

[01:45:04] experience

[01:45:06] when Nacho said get in the car

[01:45:08] drop his ice cream

[01:45:10] yeah

[01:45:12] so you know

[01:45:14] it wouldn't be our podcast if I didn't

[01:45:16] have some movie call outs to mention

[01:45:18] which I think they do in just

[01:45:20] about every episode

[01:45:22] one that came to my mind

[01:45:24] was the scene on the airplane

[01:45:26] which reminded me

[01:45:28] very much of the scene and catch me if you

[01:45:30] can

[01:45:32] when Leo DiCaprio is being brought

[01:45:34] back to America by

[01:45:36] Tom Hanks and they sort

[01:45:38] of have this whole

[01:45:40] scene where they go back and forth

[01:45:44] also in that scene

[01:45:46] Wayfarer Airlines is a call back

[01:45:48] to the plane crash in season 2

[01:45:50] yeah

[01:45:52] and I read that

[01:45:54] Saul, when that happened

[01:45:56] in season 2 after that he wore

[01:45:58] like a remembrance ribbon or something

[01:46:00] you wore a ribbon like that entire season

[01:46:02] yeah

[01:46:04] and he had it on here too I think

[01:46:06] yeah

[01:46:08] so I read it, I didn't notice it but yeah

[01:46:10] so

[01:46:12] here was the big movie

[01:46:14] little nugget they put

[01:46:16] in I thought

[01:46:18] so

[01:46:20] Kim and her coworkers at the sprinkler place

[01:46:22] are having this whole

[01:46:24] insipid discussion about

[01:46:26] where they were going to go on

[01:46:28] this woman's, her husband's birthday

[01:46:30] birthday, yep

[01:46:32] Red Lobster versus the new Middle Eastern place

[01:46:34] which is called

[01:46:36] Top Cappy

[01:46:38] well Top Cappy is a movie

[01:46:40] from

[01:46:42] 1964

[01:46:44] starring

[01:46:46] Lena Mercury, Peter Yustinoff

[01:46:48] and Maximilian Shell

[01:46:50] this movie

[01:46:52] actually was the inspiration

[01:46:54] for the Mission Impossible TV series

[01:46:56] or that's at least that's what

[01:46:58] the creator of that series later said

[01:47:00] that series began two years later

[01:47:04] it also is the

[01:47:06] inspiration for the opening scene of Return of the Pink Panther

[01:47:08] which is a jewel caper

[01:47:10] it's kind of a takeoff

[01:47:12] of Top Cappy but I'll read

[01:47:14] the

[01:47:16] the one sentence plot summary

[01:47:18] a small time con man

[01:47:20] with passport problems

[01:47:22] gets mixed up with a

[01:47:24] gang of world class jewelry thieves

[01:47:26] plotting to rob

[01:47:28] the Top Cappy Museum in Istanbul

[01:47:30] Turkish intelligence suspecting

[01:47:32] arm smuggling gets involved

[01:47:34] and under pressure

[01:47:36] the con man rises to heights of which he'd never dreamed

[01:47:38] pretty much a summary of

[01:47:40] Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul

[01:47:42] so I love that they

[01:47:44] slipped that in there

[01:47:46] and then

[01:47:48] the last one I wanted to mention is just the titles

[01:47:50] in season 6 which I know we've talked about

[01:47:52] a little bit but now we've come to the end

[01:47:54] I love the double meaning

[01:47:56] episode titles

[01:47:58] so we had

[01:48:00] Axe and Grind

[01:48:02] in which Lolo chops

[01:48:04] off Casper's foot with an axe

[01:48:06] we had

[01:48:08] Plan and Execution

[01:48:10] when Saul and Kim execute

[01:48:12] their plan versus Howard

[01:48:14] but then he gets executed by Lolo

[01:48:16] we had Point and Shoot

[01:48:18] in which Lolo

[01:48:20] was shooting the video of the super lab

[01:48:22] for Don Aladio but then

[01:48:24] gets shot by Gus

[01:48:26] we had Waterworks

[01:48:28] in which we find Kim working at

[01:48:30] Palm Coast sprinklers but then breaking down

[01:48:32] in tears on an airport bus

[01:48:34] and it's also the spot on

[01:48:36] the Monopoly table

[01:48:38] right next to go to jail

[01:48:40] right exactly

[01:48:42] and now finally we have

[01:48:44] Saul gone

[01:48:46] in which

[01:48:48] Saul goes away for

[01:48:50] 86 years the Saul personality

[01:48:52] goes away and is replaced

[01:48:54] by Jimmy McGill

[01:48:56] and the series goes away so

[01:48:58] triple meaning for the last time

[01:49:00] and the Gilaverse

[01:49:02] all of it

[01:49:04] I actually Breaking Bad

[01:49:06] was my favorite title of an episode from this season

[01:49:08] because it mirrored the Breaking Bad

[01:49:10] episode called Better Call Saul

[01:49:12] and was also

[01:49:14] about Saul becoming worse

[01:49:16] even worse

[01:49:18] yeah he was Breaking Bad

[01:49:20] so great

[01:49:22] but I mean talk about attention to detail

[01:49:24] even the titles amazing

[01:49:26] yeah so good

[01:49:28] yeah I can imagine

[01:49:30] just feeling so elated

[01:49:32] when you come up with the perfect title

[01:49:34] like that it just feels

[01:49:36] like yeah that totally gets it

[01:49:38] on different levels it's great

[01:49:42] nice

[01:49:44] Rima?

[01:49:47] goodness how do I wrap this up

[01:49:49] we've talked a little bit about the

[01:49:51] reunion there with Jimmy

[01:49:53] and Kim they're in jail

[01:49:55] when she goes to visit him

[01:49:57] love the moment

[01:49:59] when they had the cigarette together

[01:50:01] it still shows that they do have

[01:50:03] that intimacy between them

[01:50:05] and that there is a spark I think still between them

[01:50:07] I don't know what that means moving forward

[01:50:09] or anything like that I do think they left it up in the air

[01:50:11] but I thought it was just beautiful

[01:50:13] how they mirrored that

[01:50:15] and how bittersweet it was to see them reconciled

[01:50:17] and how they both

[01:50:19] just kind of accepted

[01:50:21] you know because it does stay black and white

[01:50:23] and I think it's meant to because it was

[01:50:25] you know a bit of a gut stab

[01:50:27] you know the one thing

[01:50:29] that this show has always done is they don't really

[01:50:31] flinch and look for that bright side of the

[01:50:33] story you know and I think that

[01:50:35] is why they chose to keep it in

[01:50:37] black and white and

[01:50:39] you know they kind of acknowledged

[01:50:41] Jimmy and Kim both acknowledge

[01:50:43] he's gonna die in prison you know he got that

[01:50:45] 86 years and he's gonna have

[01:50:47] to serve at least like you were saying

[01:50:49] David like 80% of that

[01:50:51] and there's you know he's not

[01:50:53] leaving that prison

[01:50:55] that's rough man it is

[01:50:57] it is bittersweet though

[01:50:59] maybe more bitter than sweet but

[01:51:01] he gets to have his

[01:51:03] soul back and that's a big deal

[01:51:05] well and he gets in a way

[01:51:07] I mean even though if they can't really be together

[01:51:09] and or whatever but he gets

[01:51:11] Kim back I mean for me

[01:51:13] the I think

[01:51:15] this series is

[01:51:17] really the love story

[01:51:19] it's definitely a love story for sure but it's

[01:51:21] it's definitely

[01:51:23] you know I feel like Jimmy is

[01:51:25] constantly searched for this

[01:51:27] validation and respect

[01:51:29] from someone and in the beginning

[01:51:31] it was Chuck and

[01:51:33] you know as you were talking about

[01:51:35] David the

[01:51:37] whole relationship

[01:51:39] where Chuck just looked down on

[01:51:41] Jimmy his whole life and throughout the series

[01:51:43] you know he always looked down on him

[01:51:45] didn't want him

[01:51:47] in anything

[01:51:49] involved with the law then

[01:51:51] Mike and Walt looked down on Jimmy

[01:51:53] you know

[01:51:55] then

[01:51:57] Kim left him

[01:51:59] so

[01:52:01] yeah she did she did but

[01:52:03] the only person that ever saw good in

[01:52:05] Jimmy was Kim

[01:52:07] out of all the people that were in his life

[01:52:09] she really knew her more than anyone

[01:52:11] she really saw him

[01:52:13] and she knew him as Jimmy

[01:52:15] she always saw the good in him

[01:52:17] she always stood up for him always defended him

[01:52:19] and she never saw what was going on in his life

[01:52:21] in his life ever did we saw time

[01:52:23] over and over again

[01:52:25] but when he transformed into Saul

[01:52:27] you know that was

[01:52:29] you know Kim

[01:52:31] you know was kind of losing that

[01:52:33] and then at the end you know

[01:52:35] when she you know saw that

[01:52:37] when they were signing their divorce papers

[01:52:39] and you know she was telling Jesse

[01:52:41] like I don't even know

[01:52:43] you know I don't know him anymore

[01:52:45] and in the end

[01:52:47] or he can

[01:52:49] be go back to

[01:52:51] Jimmy McGill or I guess in this case James McGill

[01:52:53] maybe a new evolution

[01:52:55] of who he was

[01:52:57] you know he would have had to have taken that

[01:52:59] plea deal

[01:53:01] you know that seven year plea deal but if he

[01:53:03] chose Saul he was always going to be

[01:53:05] Saul

[01:53:07] Jimmy would be gone

[01:53:09] and he would never get that validation or respect

[01:53:11] that he wanted from anyone

[01:53:13] yeah deep down

[01:53:15] and he wouldn't have been satisfied with life

[01:53:17] that way

[01:53:19] right and here in the end

[01:53:21] well and as you were talking about David

[01:53:23] the titles you know

[01:53:25] Saul gone he was gone for good

[01:53:27] and Jimmy got that respect

[01:53:29] at least that one person and I think that's all

[01:53:31] he ever really wanted

[01:53:33] and I think that's why he's okay

[01:53:35] with the choice that he made

[01:53:37] and kind of accepting of the life

[01:53:39] because he

[01:53:41] he knows he's gotten Kim's respect back

[01:53:43] and that being him

[01:53:47] yeah I mean I just think

[01:53:49] even if Kim hadn't

[01:53:51] I feel like

[01:53:53] it's more important for himself

[01:53:55] but it doesn't matter

[01:53:57] I mean it's

[01:53:59] they're both important

[01:54:01] because you know one thing that Bob

[01:54:03] Odenkirk said is that

[01:54:05] like you were saying that

[01:54:07] he looks for

[01:54:09] he goes through his life looking for approval

[01:54:11] and if you do that

[01:54:13] So I guess I just resist that his whole thing was to get Kim's approval.

[01:54:18] You know, I just think it's more important for him to be right with himself.

[01:54:21] But he went through great lengths to get Kim there to see it all.

[01:54:25] But I just feel like that was more just to show her versus getting something for himself.

[01:54:31] Because he cared about her, you know, was like a subtle difference there.

[01:54:36] Like showing her so that he could apologize basically because he felt she deserved that.

[01:54:43] Mm hmm.

[01:54:46] I liked finally hearing the charges that he had brought up against him.

[01:54:56] I think over the years, I've heard some people say or comment,

[01:55:01] well, what did what did he really do?

[01:55:03] What did Saul do that was so bad?

[01:55:04] What was it that he really did, you know, going back?

[01:55:08] It's like they couldn't quite see how he was a part of everything.

[01:55:11] So I really liked that they just laid it all out on the line there,

[01:55:15] saying not five, not 10, but 27 predicate violations, federal conspiracy to

[01:55:21] manufacture and distribute a controlled substance, money laundering, eight

[01:55:25] counts 20 years each, 160 years stat max accessory after the fact of multiple

[01:55:30] murders, including two decorated federal officers 15 years each.

[01:55:34] And then as was mentioned earlier, that was life because he was getting life

[01:55:40] for one of the earlier charges.

[01:55:42] So he was getting 100 life plus 190 years and they were going to ask

[01:55:48] for that to be consecutive.

[01:55:49] So it was like, oh, so that's what that's the evidence and the charges

[01:55:54] that they were bringing up against him.

[01:55:56] So I thought it was good to kind of finally hear that all laid out

[01:56:03] to kind of see what he was up against.

[01:56:05] Um, and I think my last note, just since this is the end of the series and I

[01:56:13] think anyway, the end of the Breaking Bad universe, you know, just being

[01:56:17] grateful that this spinoff, which I think was a prequel.

[01:56:23] It was a little intercool.

[01:56:26] It was a sequel of Breaking Bad.

[01:56:29] It was interesting to see how they fleshed out who were already

[01:56:32] really great characters, but they also, and I think elevated the story

[01:56:39] of Breaking Bad, you know, that series.

[01:56:42] And they created some, this incredible story, wrote these fantastic

[01:56:50] characters, built these incredible relationships.

[01:56:52] And I think, I mean, I'm just so grateful to Vince, to Peter, to

[01:56:58] all the actors, producers, everyone that had something to do with this show,

[01:57:02] both shows and made them fantastic.

[01:57:05] I hope that they all, you know, whatever they do next, I hope they

[01:57:10] have the best success, um, you know, and that we got all these really

[01:57:14] great characters, you know, that were just part of a throwaway line.

[01:57:19] Uh, Lalo, Kim, Nacho, you know, all of these characters that really

[01:57:24] elevated, you know, the entire show and of course the universe.

[01:57:27] So I don't know, I'm just really grateful.

[01:57:29] It was amazing to watch, um, live thinking back on whenever I watched

[01:57:34] Breaking Bad live when it ended and then watching this one live.

[01:57:37] It was just grateful for the experience.

[01:57:39] And then I got to, got to experience it.

[01:57:44] Yeah.

[01:57:44] Well said.

[01:57:46] It's a special kind of show.

[01:57:48] Yeah.

[01:57:48] Yeah.

[01:57:50] Okay.

[01:57:51] Uh, few notes.

[01:57:53] I was interested to see Jimmy out in the bag man episode segment

[01:58:02] suggest to Mike that we should just split this money because we

[01:58:05] never saw that before, but it totally makes sense.

[01:58:09] I mean, it would be kind of dumb not to at least consider it.

[01:58:12] But Mike won't do it.

[01:58:14] And he says, you know, some people won't like that.

[01:58:18] So I presume he's afraid of what would happen to his

[01:58:21] granddaughter and daughter-in-law if he did that.

[01:58:24] Was that even a serious suggestion?

[01:58:26] Because then he goes on to say, I take the first six million,

[01:58:29] make a time machine.

[01:58:29] Make a time machine.

[01:58:30] Yeah.

[01:58:31] I don't know, you know, when people say things like that,

[01:58:34] you wonder how serious they were.

[01:58:36] It doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't serious.

[01:58:38] He might have been feeling him out.

[01:58:39] And then when he realized he wouldn't go for it,

[01:58:42] he turned into a joke, you know.

[01:58:43] I think it could go either way.

[01:58:44] They've been out in the desert, the heat, they're dehydrated.

[01:58:47] It cooks your brain a little bit.

[01:58:49] So, you know, he might have meant it and then it could have been

[01:58:52] just ignore me.

[01:58:54] I was just kidding.

[01:58:58] I love that he was baking bread in prison

[01:59:00] and putting his cinnamon skills to work.

[01:59:02] And I thought that that could be an indication of another

[01:59:06] sequel series, Breaking Bad, Cole and Baking Bread.

[01:59:10] Just kidding.

[01:59:10] I thought, you know, I feel like there's, well, yeah, there's four.

[01:59:19] Maybe four, like maybe there's more than four.

[01:59:22] I don't know what I'm trying to say.

[01:59:24] Main characters, because there's of course Jesse and Walt.

[01:59:27] And then there's Jimmy and Kim.

[01:59:29] And then Mike, I think at this point could be elevated

[01:59:32] to one of the main characters.

[01:59:34] And so I was going to say all sudden done,

[01:59:37] Jesse is the only main character to get away.

[01:59:40] But if you count Kim and she did too.

[01:59:45] And Vince Gilligan always says he thinks characters

[01:59:47] should face consequences for their actions.

[01:59:49] I would say Jesse has faced more than enough consequences

[01:59:55] for his actions.

[01:59:57] That's what I would say just before coming up with in the

[02:00:01] Breaking Bad or no, in the Better Call Saul episode of

[02:00:05] Breaking Bad where Saul makes his first appearance.

[02:00:09] He tells Walt and Jesse, someone's going to jail over this.

[02:00:13] It's just a matter of who.

[02:00:15] So maybe you could see that as foreshadowing, you know.

[02:00:20] Walt died, Jesse got away.

[02:00:21] So someone had to go to jail and that's Saul.

[02:00:24] That's one of our listeners said.

[02:00:26] Mm hmm.

[02:00:27] And I also love it because Better Call Saul was all about

[02:00:30] the law and how Jimmy didn't respect it.

[02:00:33] That that's another reason why this ending feels right

[02:00:36] for the show.

[02:00:37] It does.

[02:00:40] Here's some trivia that I got from the wiki

[02:00:43] that I thought was interesting.

[02:00:44] It's the longest episode of Better Call Saul and longer

[02:00:47] than any episode of Breaking Bad, 69 minutes.

[02:00:52] Murray mentioned that Hank and Gomi were murdered

[02:00:55] and buried in a hole.

[02:00:56] So now we know that their bodies were found.

[02:00:58] We didn't know that before.

[02:00:59] I don't think.

[02:01:01] I don't think they said it, but it was part of.

[02:01:04] It was supposed to be part of like Skylar, what she had

[02:01:06] to offer for a plea deal to kind of get her charges

[02:01:10] reduced was to share the location.

[02:01:15] Jimmy says, as Steve Jobs used to say one more thing.

[02:01:20] In this episode, but it's in late 2010 and Steve Jobs

[02:01:24] died in late 2011 and was still doing keynotes

[02:01:29] at least until June of that year.

[02:01:31] So it sounds a little bit like he's saying Steve Jobs

[02:01:34] is gone, but he's not.

[02:01:35] So that's maybe a little bit of an error.

[02:01:39] This is the only Breaking Bad universe season finale

[02:01:42] where no one dies.

[02:01:44] Out of all, what is it?

[02:01:47] Would it Breaking Bad have five seasons in the 10, 6, 11?

[02:01:50] It's all good men died.

[02:01:53] It's all good men died.

[02:01:55] But do you got me there?

[02:01:57] Jimmy flies back to Albuquerque.

[02:01:59] Oh yeah, you already mentioned that

[02:02:00] on the Wayfair flights.

[02:02:03] And right now, this final episode is one

[02:02:07] of the best rated episodes in IMDB history

[02:02:11] with a score of 9.9.

[02:02:14] I mean, interesting if it stays up there.

[02:02:15] That'd be cool.

[02:02:16] 100% on Rotten Tomatoes too.

[02:02:18] Nice.

[02:02:22] And then a few things from the Better Call Saul

[02:02:25] insider podcast, they mentioned that it was

[02:02:27] kind of a bummer because Vince Gilligan couldn't be on

[02:02:29] because he had some personal things.

[02:02:31] So they're talking about doing a couple more episodes,

[02:02:33] bringing more of the cast members together for like a bigger row.

[02:02:37] I hope they end up doing that.

[02:02:38] They weren't sure, but they did have Bob Odenkirk, Peter Gold

[02:02:41] and Kelly Dixon was on there and the Chris guy that does it now.

[02:02:46] Anyway, Peter Gold was saying around season four,

[02:02:50] they started asking, all right, where's this guy going to end up?

[02:02:53] Because Kelly asked, when did you know that this would be the ending?

[02:02:57] And he said they thought, well, he's a creature of the legal system.

[02:03:01] He's done a lot of things to the legal system.

[02:03:03] So it feels right that he ended up in jail.

[02:03:06] One thing that surprised me, Bob Odenkirk was

[02:03:10] he seemed worried that people wouldn't find this ending flashy enough

[02:03:14] given how Breaking Bad ended with the machine gun.

[02:03:18] And he was asking Peter Gold, did you worry like that?

[02:03:22] Breaking Bad was all violence and guns.

[02:03:26] And this is all talking and I was almost bummed for Peter Gold

[02:03:30] that Bob Odenkirk would even bring that up because I didn't even consider that.

[02:03:34] It's not a problem at all.

[02:03:36] This is a particular kind of show, and this was the type of ending for it.

[02:03:40] I thought, yeah, I wouldn't want them to drum up some big explosive thing

[02:03:48] to make it more exciting.

[02:03:50] No, what these guys do best is find the next thing that makes the most sense.

[02:03:55] It's character.

[02:03:56] It's all about the characters in the show, not that Breaking Bad wasn't.

[02:04:01] It was just very different.

[02:04:02] But that was more of a show of these criminals that committed violence.

[02:04:06] And this is a show that takes place a lot in courtrooms and stuff.

[02:04:09] You know? So it felt right.

[02:04:15] He also, Bob Odenkirk, talked a lot about how dynamic this part is.

[02:04:19] And he, you know, played, he got started playing sketch comedy

[02:04:23] and got to play all these different characters.

[02:04:25] But he felt almost like this was that not only just because of all the different

[02:04:30] iterations of Saul, but within a couple of pages of the script,

[02:04:33] there would be a really earnest scene and then high tension and etc.

[02:04:37] You know, just very dynamic.

[02:04:39] And he said, I'll never have a role as good as this.

[02:04:41] I know that, but that's OK.

[02:04:43] He said, I have to come to terms with that.

[02:04:45] I'm not expect that it's going to happen again and just be grateful for it.

[02:04:48] You know? So he tries to clearly have a really healthy mindset about it all.

[02:04:54] Last thing is on that podcast, they always have someone sign off.

[02:04:59] Chris says, we have someone sign off by doing your best.

[02:05:02] Bob Odenkirk, better call Saul.

[02:05:04] And of course, Bob Odenkirk did this last one.

[02:05:07] Well, that's fitting. Really cool.

[02:05:10] He's never done it before. Best way to end and that.

[02:05:16] I thought it was really it was so strange to hear

[02:05:20] Jimmy in the in the courtroom or whenever he's giving this foe.

[02:05:26] I'm the victim, you know, speech when he says two years ago,

[02:05:31] a man walked into my office and I was like,

[02:05:34] it is so weird to hear it like that.

[02:05:35] There was only two years between that time,

[02:05:40] the better call Saul episode and and to that we've been on this long journey,

[02:05:45] you know, the six seasons of better call Saul, which even longer in years

[02:05:51] between the delays and such.

[02:05:52] So it was just so weird to really kind of put things into perspective a little bit

[02:05:56] like, wow, as far as the time that passed.

[02:05:58] So I thought that was interesting in the moment.

[02:06:02] I saw this meme that said, wait,

[02:06:04] so all of Breaking Bad was just a side quest of better call Saul or something

[02:06:09] like that. All right.

[02:06:14] That is it.

[02:06:16] But we have, of course, a ton of feedback from you guys.

[02:06:19] So we'll take a little break and then we'll get back to it.

[02:06:54] Right.

[02:06:55] Sunshine day.

[02:06:58] I think I can make it now.

[02:07:06] All right, we're back and I need to fully come clean that I totally forgot

[02:07:11] about the news yesterday.

[02:07:13] So now we're recording a day later with just Rima and me

[02:07:17] and we're going to hear the news and then we'll check back into where

[02:07:21] Rima and David and I left off yesterday.

[02:07:25] So what do we got?

[02:07:26] Well, there, you know, just full disclosure at least on my end since we're

[02:07:30] kind of clean, there's a lot of articles out there, obviously, because this was

[02:07:33] not only the finale but the series finale.

[02:07:35] So there's a lot out there, you know, a lot of great articles, a lot

[02:07:38] of great interviews if you guys enjoy reading those, definitely go out

[02:07:42] and check check those out.

[02:07:43] Obviously, I cannot include all of them here.

[02:07:45] I just try to go through what's interesting.

[02:07:47] So with that being said, there was an article with Variety

[02:07:53] with Peter Gold and Bob Oddenkirk talking about the final scene specifically

[02:07:59] in the series.

[02:08:02] So when one part of the article he talks about, he says

[02:08:08] for the final scene, hopefully it's not excessively cute on our part.

[02:08:12] He says, I think the characters are doing it on purpose.

[02:08:14] This is something we've seen them do before is a sign to each other

[02:08:17] that there's still something between them that there always was.

[02:08:20] And this was the shot there when Kim visits Jimmy in prison.

[02:08:25] And Bob Oddenkirk says it was the easiest scene we ever shot.

[02:08:28] It was a lot of feelings from six years of working with each other.

[02:08:31] It's one of the few times where one of them isn't trying to manipulate

[02:08:35] the moment, push some argument in some direction.

[02:08:38] There are moments where they're watching a movie together and they're

[02:08:41] very relaxed and comfortable.

[02:08:42] This was deeper than that.

[02:08:44] There are two people who belong together, which is great for a long term relationship.

[02:08:49] That's interesting.

[02:08:51] Yep.

[02:08:51] Ray Seahorn even had something to say about this whole cigarette scene.

[02:08:55] She said it was the very last scene that they shot in the series.

[02:08:59] She says, this is them at their best.

[02:09:01] It's a horrible place, but they're without artifice and armor, sort of

[02:09:05] maskless with each other, which is the best part of their relationship.

[02:09:09] Bob was very caretaking, steadying her hand.

[02:09:11] He tries to make her laugh a little bit to make sure she knows it's OK.

[02:09:15] It's such an economic scene.

[02:09:17] Peter is so great, not overwriting it, trusting us and the audience.

[02:09:22] Yeah.

[02:09:23] Yeah, I think I was saying because now for you guys, it's been like 20 minutes,

[02:09:27] but me, it's the next day.

[02:09:29] Something about how for the first time they're fully like honest with each

[02:09:35] other here or not because they're not saying anything, but just

[02:09:39] fully present and not hiding anything or anything like that.

[02:09:42] But on second thought, I don't think that's totally true because

[02:09:46] if he was ever fully himself with anybody, it was her before.

[02:09:52] Totally.

[02:09:53] Like when they were watching movies or.

[02:09:54] Yeah.

[02:09:55] That's why I really like to me, it's important to just like goof around

[02:09:59] sometimes because.

[02:10:01] Just sharing those kind of.

[02:10:05] Moments that we're not trying to do or get anything

[02:10:09] are like the most special things to me in life, you know,

[02:10:13] even though on the surface it might think, hey, you're not doing anything there.

[02:10:17] I mean, for me, that's what life is all about.

[02:10:19] Those moments where you just enjoying hanging out with somebody.

[02:10:24] Even if it's in jail.

[02:10:25] No, I don't know about that.

[02:10:27] Hey, any time that you can appreciate some some time away from

[02:10:32] spaking the bread, yeah, right?

[02:10:34] Get a quick smoke and hang out with your ex.

[02:10:37] Any time is good to all you have is time, right?

[02:10:40] That's right.

[02:10:43] Next article is from the New York Times.

[02:10:45] So I thought this was really interesting.

[02:10:47] There there were a couple of writers there on staff that were

[02:10:50] responsible for helping to keep the story straight.

[02:10:53] So Ariel Levine and Kathleen Williams Foshee, they were considered

[02:10:58] the show's in quotes brain trust and they tracked every minor

[02:11:03] character trait and historical reference.

[02:11:06] So that this was interesting.

[02:11:07] I took a few things from that article.

[02:11:09] One of the questions they said in the writer's room,

[02:11:12] how did you keep track of all the history in play as you were

[02:11:15] trying to generate new stories?

[02:11:17] And Ariel Levine said in the room, figuring out what we could

[02:11:20] and couldn't do or what we should and shouldn't do was

[02:11:23] primarily the writer's assistant's job.

[02:11:25] When I was a writer's assistant, Kathleen and I would use this

[02:11:28] living document I made with every established fact or

[02:11:30] character on both Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.

[02:11:33] So if Saul said in Breaking Bad, I've been divorced three

[02:11:36] times that would be in there.

[02:11:38] Or if Gail, we all remember Gail and Breaking Bad,

[02:11:42] had a resume that appeared in one shot in one episode that

[02:11:45] said he went to a certain college, that would be in there as

[02:11:47] well. Whenever the writers were discussing a particular

[02:11:50] character event, we would speak up in the moment until

[02:11:52] everyone was known about it.

[02:11:54] And then they ask, well, how long is this document?

[02:11:56] And she said the final version was 52 pages.

[02:12:00] Williams Foshee jumps in says it was beautiful.

[02:12:03] They said they expanded it into a spread sheet that we

[02:12:06] called the Gilaverse mega timeline.

[02:12:09] That's amazing. I want to see it.

[02:12:11] It's actually shorter than I thought it would be 52.

[02:12:13] I know, but I was expecting way more.

[02:12:16] Yeah, because like I go to the Wikipedia, but that has

[02:12:20] like descriptions of every single episode.

[02:12:22] So right, right.

[02:12:23] The wiki page. I mean, I would that's what they should

[02:12:26] have at that auction.

[02:12:27] That's just a oh, that would be so cool.

[02:12:30] Wouldn't that be amazing?

[02:12:31] That would definitely be worth fitting on.

[02:12:32] They should publish it.

[02:12:33] Yeah, they should publish it.

[02:12:35] Oh my gosh, we should tweet at them and ask them to

[02:12:37] because it's the harm now.

[02:12:38] It's for that. Yeah.

[02:12:40] Yeah, yeah.

[02:12:41] That should be it.

[02:12:41] They should have it online, pay 10 bucks to download a copy.

[02:12:45] You know, that would be really cool.

[02:12:47] They're listening. But anyway.

[02:12:50] But then they had individual documents

[02:12:52] for all of their recurring characters.

[02:12:54] Then they asked them how many times have you both

[02:12:57] watched Breaking Bad and Ariel Levine says all the way

[02:13:00] through seven.

[02:13:01] But there are individual episodes like the one that

[02:13:04] introduces Saul or the one that gets into the relationship

[02:13:06] between Gus and Saul Amonka's that I've easily seen 20 or 25

[02:13:10] times or more.

[02:13:11] And Williams Foshe says, I've watched it at least five

[02:13:14] times all the way through, but probably more when Saul was

[02:13:18] in production, we were looking at scenes from Breaking Bad

[02:13:20] every day.

[02:13:23] They asked them how did you deal with story decisions

[02:13:25] that might contradict something that was established

[02:13:27] on Breaking Bad?

[02:13:28] And Ariel Levine says, well, we wanted we always

[02:13:31] wanted to be as consistent as possible, but we reserve

[02:13:33] the right to decide that something you saw on Breaking

[02:13:36] Bad might have been wrong.

[02:13:38] Ultimately, we chose to do what we felt would serve the story.

[02:13:41] Saul's diploma on Breaking Bad said that he graduated

[02:13:44] from the University of American Samoa in 1986.

[02:13:47] But that didn't work for the timeline of our show.

[02:13:49] So we changed it to 1998.

[02:13:52] Similarly, on Breaking Bad, Saul mentions a second ex-wife

[02:13:55] and there's a deleted scene from the show where he says

[02:13:58] he has three ex-wives total.

[02:14:00] We actually talked about including a flashback

[02:14:02] scene to one of his previous marriages, but it seemed

[02:14:04] like too much to introduce an entirely new character.

[02:14:07] So we just had him present two previous dissolution

[02:14:09] of marriage certificates in the scene where he and Kim

[02:14:12] get married at the courthouse.

[02:14:15] That's kind of like a, oh yeah, and he had two other wives.

[02:14:18] Yeah, exactly.

[02:14:20] Don't worry about that.

[02:14:21] Right.

[02:14:23] And then Williams Foshee says, it helps that Saul talks

[02:14:25] out of his ass a lot because in a way it makes sense

[02:14:28] that not everything is going to add up.

[02:14:30] He's just riffing constantly.

[02:14:32] That's part of who he is.

[02:14:33] Yeah, that diploma could have just been a fake for whatever reason.

[02:14:37] Right.

[02:14:39] One last thing they asked, he said, fans on Reddit

[02:14:43] never let any detail or perceived misstep go unnoticed.

[02:14:46] Were there any oversights that came back to haunt you?

[02:14:49] Aira Levine says, I think the thing that usually haunted us

[02:14:52] was stuff that was shot that we didn't know about

[02:14:54] or weren't around for.

[02:14:56] Dates were a big issue.

[02:14:57] We were always shouting at production,

[02:14:58] please don't show any calendars.

[02:15:04] So I thought that was fun.

[02:15:06] Yeah, that was really fun.

[02:15:08] They, I'm sure she was on the aerial of being

[02:15:10] because they had one of those bonus episodes

[02:15:13] of Better Call Saul and Sider podcast

[02:15:15] was with the quote brain trust.

[02:15:16] So it was all those assistants talking

[02:15:18] about all this stuff.

[02:15:19] It was pretty cool.

[02:15:20] Yeah, I find that really interesting

[02:15:22] and I think we've talked about it several times

[02:15:25] on the podcast like keeping things straight

[02:15:27] and who does that and whose job is it?

[02:15:29] Well now we know, that was their jobs

[02:15:33] and they know how they tried to keep that link

[02:15:35] between the two shows consistent

[02:15:37] as much as possible anyway,

[02:15:39] but also serving the story at the same time.

[02:15:41] So I found that fascinating.

[02:15:44] There was an interview from Vanity Fair with Peter Gold.

[02:15:50] So a couple of items from that interview.

[02:15:52] There's again a lot more in these interviews.

[02:15:55] So I encourage everyone to go read them

[02:15:57] in their entirety.

[02:15:58] They are really great, but they start out with one.

[02:16:02] They said, tell me a little bit

[02:16:03] about the time machine motif in the finale,

[02:16:05] which we see in a number of flashbacks.

[02:16:07] Peter Gold says, so much of the show

[02:16:09] is about bad decisions that people make.

[02:16:11] If there's a bittersweet quality to the whole show,

[02:16:13] it is the feeling that the lives of these characters

[02:16:15] could have gone very, very differently,

[02:16:18] especially for Jimmy, but also Mike and Kim and Walt.

[02:16:22] All of them have made decisions that I think

[02:16:24] if they were to be honest about it, they regret.

[02:16:26] But Jimmy's not willing to talk about regret.

[02:16:28] He's not willing to go into the pain

[02:16:30] until very deep into this particular episode.

[02:16:33] And the time machine is a thought experiment.

[02:16:35] If you could change something in your life,

[02:16:36] what would it be?

[02:16:37] Of course that's not really what HG Wells book

[02:16:39] is about at all, but you can't help think

[02:16:41] about the pages that you would go back

[02:16:43] and rewrite if you had the opportunity.

[02:16:46] Mm-hmm.

[02:16:48] I'll take a one. Yeah, notice how I didn't ask

[02:16:51] you and David.

[02:16:52] So what are your biggest regrets in life?

[02:16:54] It's not very good podcast conversation.

[02:16:59] It did occur to me, but I restrain myself.

[02:17:01] Oh, hmm.

[02:17:03] You know, for me it wouldn't be great

[02:17:05] just because I could be sitting here

[02:17:07] for a while trying to think of something.

[02:17:09] I'm sure there's something.

[02:17:10] I try not to have regrets, but I'm sure there's something.

[02:17:12] I would definitely go back and-

[02:17:13] So you're more like saw no regrets.

[02:17:16] No, I don't dwell.

[02:17:18] You're like, no sir.

[02:17:19] That's not what I'm saying.

[02:17:21] There are things I would change,

[02:17:22] but I try not to think about them as like regrets.

[02:17:24] Do I fully regret some things?

[02:17:27] You know, not really.

[02:17:31] So they go on.

[02:17:32] The characters responses to the questions

[02:17:34] of what they would change are very telling.

[02:17:37] Mike wants to go back to the moment when he broke bad.

[02:17:39] Walter White wants to go back to a moment when he was weak.

[02:17:42] Jimmy just says he'd go back with this contemporary knowledge

[02:17:45] about Warren Buffett and get rich.

[02:17:48] Peter Gold says, Mike is being honest.

[02:17:50] He opens up in that moment and Jimmy closes down.

[02:17:52] When you watch Bob in that scene,

[02:17:54] you know he's gotta be thinking about his brother,

[02:17:56] but is he gonna say something about his brother

[02:17:58] in front of Mike of all people?

[02:18:00] He decides it's too painful.

[02:18:02] I think Walt and Jimmy are on the same page.

[02:18:04] If you think about where we are

[02:18:06] in the chronology of Breaking Bad,

[02:18:09] Walt had just had his son pull a knife on him

[02:18:12] and kidnapped his own baby.

[02:18:13] He just did all these terrible, terrible things,

[02:18:16] and yet his regret is a missed business opportunity.

[02:18:19] There's an evasiveness to both Walt and Saul

[02:18:21] in that scene.

[02:18:22] Neither one of them is willing to really be honest

[02:18:25] with each other and maybe not even honest with themselves

[02:18:29] about the things that they've done in their lives,

[02:18:31] the things they regret or would change.

[02:18:33] And if you can't think about your regrets,

[02:18:35] then you can't change your ways.

[02:18:37] So these guys are all caught up in cycles

[02:18:39] that seem absolutely unbreakable.

[02:18:41] I totally agree with that.

[02:18:43] Absolutely.

[02:18:45] I thought this question was interesting.

[02:18:48] One lingering question I have about Kim

[02:18:49] is why she went after Howard with such ferocity

[02:18:53] because that was such a turning point for her.

[02:18:56] And he said, absolutely Howard got under her skin,

[02:18:59] but she doesn't hate Howard.

[02:19:01] It's more that in the moment at the end of season five,

[02:19:03] she feels like Jimmy is about to break up with her

[02:19:06] and she knows that the scamming

[02:19:07] is how they renew themselves.

[02:19:09] That's the awful cycle that these two are in.

[02:19:11] The first time they kissed it was right after

[02:19:14] they had scammed a guy into buying

[02:19:15] an expensive bottle of the Zaviro Neho.

[02:19:18] Sometimes it's Kim calling Jimmy saying,

[02:19:20] I've got a live one.

[02:19:21] That's what renews them.

[02:19:22] So she's following that pattern,

[02:19:24] making it a little bit bigger.

[02:19:26] These two people just don't quite believe in themselves enough

[02:19:29] and believe in the relationship enough.

[02:19:31] So they use this jolt of energy they get from scamming.

[02:19:34] Even if it had not led to Howard's death,

[02:19:36] the next time they pushed it,

[02:19:37] something bad would have happened.

[02:19:42] I thought that was interesting because I know,

[02:19:44] it was like, what is it?

[02:19:46] It felt like more.

[02:19:48] So I thought that was interesting.

[02:19:49] I mean, why?

[02:19:51] Why that was so important to them.

[02:19:54] And for Kim, she was so adamant about it.

[02:19:57] I still don't totally get it.

[02:19:59] Why she was so intent on sticking it to Howard

[02:20:04] that she gave up on a huge opportunity.

[02:20:08] I don't understand why she would do that.

[02:20:11] We need to set them down and talk about it.

[02:20:15] So last question.

[02:20:17] They said, I know you have been living

[02:20:19] in the Breaking Bad Better Call Saul universe

[02:20:21] for about 14 years now.

[02:20:23] Do you have any thoughts about someday returning

[02:20:25] for another spin-off?

[02:20:26] He says, at this point at the end of Breaking Bad,

[02:20:29] Vince and I had already been talking

[02:20:30] about Better Call Saul for quite a while.

[02:20:32] And we haven't talked about another show in this world.

[02:20:35] I think we all want to give it a little bit of a rest.

[02:20:38] One of the things I'm most proud of is that

[02:20:39] Better Call Saul is a completely different animal

[02:20:41] from Breaking Bad or El Camino.

[02:20:43] And if we were gonna do another spin-off,

[02:20:45] it would have to be different from what we've done before.

[02:20:47] Having said that, I love everybody

[02:20:49] who worked on both shows.

[02:20:50] It's been the ride of my life.

[02:20:52] And if the stars aligned for us to work together again,

[02:20:54] whether it's in Albuquerque or anywhere,

[02:20:56] I would jump at the chance.

[02:20:58] That's cool.

[02:20:59] So that's an answer.

[02:21:01] There's, or non-answer, I guess.

[02:21:03] I know so many people are really just chomping

[02:21:06] at winning some other, I don't know who,

[02:21:10] character, but everybody's kinda winning

[02:21:11] something more from the shivers.

[02:21:13] The total answer, he's just saying,

[02:21:16] I mean, he said, we wanna do other things now,

[02:21:19] but we might come back to it.

[02:21:21] They don't know.

[02:21:23] Right.

[02:21:24] I totally get it, after that long.

[02:21:27] It's a lot of time to be spending with these characters

[02:21:30] and in that universe.

[02:21:33] So who knows?

[02:21:35] But I think that it needs to sit just a little bit.

[02:21:38] And it does kind of make sense that

[02:21:40] they were already kind of had the conception

[02:21:45] of the spin-off with Better Call Saul

[02:21:46] when Breaking Bad is still happening

[02:21:50] and they're not right now, they don't have any

[02:21:53] discussion of that.

[02:21:56] By the end of Breaking Bad,

[02:21:58] almost everyone was dead.

[02:22:00] And so one of the ways, I mean, Saul wasn't,

[02:22:05] but still the way that they were around that

[02:22:08] where they still got to show a lot of characters

[02:22:11] from Breaking Bad was to make it a prequel.

[02:22:12] But I don't think they could do another prequel

[02:22:15] where you could see a lot of these characters again.

[02:22:20] It just would feel too repetitive

[02:22:22] and they'd be even older, so it'd be even weirder

[02:22:24] and they just can't do that trick again.

[02:22:27] So they can't really show a lot of the same characters anymore

[02:22:31] because they're all too old or dead.

[02:22:34] That's so sad.

[02:22:35] But anyway, I'd like to see them do something else.

[02:22:40] Yeah.

[02:22:41] I'll definitely be following whatever they do next.

[02:22:45] Absolutely.

[02:22:46] Yeah, no question.

[02:22:46] Definitely one me over.

[02:22:49] I would love to see Gilligan, Vince Gilligan

[02:22:53] do just one Walking Dead episode.

[02:22:56] Just to see what he could do with it.

[02:22:57] Yeah.

[02:22:59] The choices he'd make.

[02:23:01] Yeah.

[02:23:01] Did X-Files?

[02:23:03] Oh, hell yeah.

[02:23:04] I mean, yeah, the dude can write his stuff.

[02:23:07] That's for sure.

[02:23:08] I have zeroed out in his capability honestly.

[02:23:11] Maybe that's not great to say,

[02:23:13] but I would follow him anywhere and just,

[02:23:17] I think he'd be great.

[02:23:20] Well, that is all that I have.

[02:23:23] All right, that was great.

[02:23:25] Let's move on to Listener Feedback.

[02:23:27] Let's do the same order, so I'll go first.

[02:23:28] Gijo Putia says a roller coaster of an episode,

[02:23:32] although he got 86 years,

[02:23:34] he won the love of his girl back.

[02:23:36] I would say it was worth it, heart.

[02:23:38] Christina Spinney says if there's anyone in the world

[02:23:42] who knows how to stick the landing,

[02:23:43] it's Peter Gold and Vince Gilgan.

[02:23:46] Bravo, what a satisfying ending.

[02:23:49] Great.

[02:23:50] Naan Imus says stick the landing much.

[02:23:53] PS, in five years I want the follow-up series

[02:23:56] where Jesse goes to jail and meets Jimmy again.

[02:23:59] Both actors could play close to their real ages.

[02:24:04] I feel like if they're gonna do another series

[02:24:06] they're just gonna have to make up

[02:24:08] some more new characters.

[02:24:10] But we'll see.

[02:24:11] Or it could just be James McGill in jail.

[02:24:14] Kim.

[02:24:15] Baking bread.

[02:24:17] Yeah, Kim, that's true.

[02:24:19] Lisa Edmondson Walker says I like the way they wrapped it up.

[02:24:23] They had me guessing most of the way through

[02:24:25] and it was interesting to see Saul and Jimmy

[02:24:27] appear back and forth for a while.

[02:24:29] Seeing, yeah, he had just about every iteration

[02:24:31] of Jimmy in this episode.

[02:24:34] Seeing Jimmy and Kim share the last cigarette

[02:24:36] was moving and watching Kim walk away

[02:24:38] without returning his double gun sign

[02:24:41] felt pretty final.

[02:24:43] It did.

[02:24:44] Agreed.

[02:24:45] DeFane Tebow says loved all the recalls, great finale.

[02:24:48] The cigarette scene, the exit signs crackling

[02:24:52] in the courtroom.

[02:24:54] Call back to the Chuck hearing.

[02:24:57] Both Kim and Jimmy back to practice lawn away.

[02:25:00] Jimmy channeling Jean in the prison bakery.

[02:25:03] Need to watch it again I think.

[02:25:05] Took me years to get into Breaking Bad

[02:25:07] but I really loved Better Call Saul.

[02:25:09] The writing is so good.

[02:25:10] Maybe one of the writers could go rescue fear.

[02:25:14] I wish, I wanna see what Vince Gilligan

[02:25:16] would do with Walking Dead.

[02:25:20] He might be one of the few that could save that show.

[02:25:25] Anthony, is it Ibercina?

[02:25:29] Sure.

[02:25:30] Sorry if I mispronounced that, I'm terrible with names.

[02:25:33] All Saul Jimmy ever wanted in this show

[02:25:36] was acceptance and he finally got it in prison.

[02:25:38] It was a beautiful ending tied up so many loose ends.

[02:25:41] He wanted to show Kim that he could change his path

[02:25:44] and so could she but the way she looks back at him,

[02:25:48] the last scene, heartbreak sign, beautifully done.

[02:25:52] I know it's just the fan in me

[02:25:53] but I want them to be together.

[02:25:55] Like she should get him out.

[02:26:00] That's funny, I get ya.

[02:26:01] The next show.

[02:26:02] I feel that.

[02:26:03] Jay Geter says amazing episode,

[02:26:06] that's the way you end a series.

[02:26:08] The series as a whole now my all time favorite drama.

[02:26:12] It was good to see Jimmy come somewhat back to the light

[02:26:15] and the scene with Kim and Jimmy sharing a cigarette

[02:26:17] got me teary eyed.

[02:26:18] Over the last three weeks,

[02:26:19] I rewatch Breaking Bad and El Camino.

[02:26:22] This episode was definitely the icing on the cake.

[02:26:25] Can't wait to see what project Peter Gould

[02:26:27] and Vince Gilligan do next.

[02:26:29] Better call Saul.

[02:26:31] I don't know if they're working together,

[02:26:32] I think it might be working on separate things

[02:26:33] but I'm not sure.

[02:26:35] Three week rewatch of Breaking Bad,

[02:26:37] that's a lot of Breaking Bad.

[02:26:38] That's intense.

[02:26:39] And it is intense.

[02:26:40] I think I've done it.

[02:26:41] Yeah.

[02:26:44] Rita Catanella Orrell says,

[02:26:46] Jimmy came back to us.

[02:26:48] I don't realize how much I missed Jimmy

[02:26:49] until he was on the screen again.

[02:26:51] I love that.

[02:26:53] That ending was perfect.

[02:26:54] It had everything you could have asked for.

[02:26:56] New Mike and Walt scenes

[02:26:58] and neither Chuck and Jimmy scene.

[02:26:59] I like how they focus on the exit scene

[02:27:01] when he mentions Chuck.

[02:27:03] A bit of justice for Hank and Gomi

[02:27:05] and Kim reconciling with a cigarette against the wall.

[02:27:09] When his fellow inmates start chanting

[02:27:11] better call Saul on the bus,

[02:27:13] the look on Odin Kirk's face was amazing.

[02:27:16] He is a magician with face acting.

[02:27:18] This show makes me want to be a better writer.

[02:27:23] That's good.

[02:27:24] Mike Velez says, I enjoyed it.

[02:27:27] Sad.

[02:27:28] Love seeing Betsy Brant return.

[02:27:30] She was great.

[02:27:31] I agree she was.

[02:27:32] I think she was also wearing purple.

[02:27:33] Hard to tell in the black and white though.

[02:27:35] Yeah, had to be, had to be.

[02:27:37] They were on the podcast.

[02:27:38] Somebody asked that and Peter Eagle was like,

[02:27:40] oh, I think she's been changed and moved past purple.

[02:27:43] But I think he's wrong.

[02:27:44] I think it was purple.

[02:27:45] It was dark.

[02:27:46] Yeah, it was dark.

[02:27:47] I have to believe Marie was wearing purple.

[02:27:51] He goes on.

[02:27:52] I love the feeling that Saul Jimmy was going to be

[02:27:54] in some kind of danger going to prison

[02:27:55] only to what seemed to be respected as Saul Goodman

[02:27:58] by the other inmates.

[02:27:59] You don't want a criminal lawyer.

[02:28:01] You want a criminal lawyer.

[02:28:03] Made perfect sense.

[02:28:05] I love the call back to when Jimmy went

[02:28:06] dumpster diving for the shredded documents at Sandpiper

[02:28:09] only to be finally be caught by the police

[02:28:11] in a dumpster, LOL.

[02:28:13] All episode we got flashbacks of Saul

[02:28:15] only regretting things that impacted him financially.

[02:28:18] But at the very end, his regret was not be true to Jimmy.

[02:28:22] I can go on and on, but boy did I love that ending.

[02:28:24] Can't wait to hear the podcast on this episode.

[02:28:28] Thanks, Mike.

[02:28:30] Bryson Wolf says, I loved it.

[02:28:32] I thought it was a good and fitting ending.

[02:28:34] I like how Saul is brought back down a few levels

[02:28:37] by learning Kim, his moral compass,

[02:28:39] has already spilled the beans on Howard's death

[02:28:42] and he's got no more leverage.

[02:28:43] He takes responsibility for what he's done

[02:28:45] and fesses up in front of the court, Kim and Marie.

[02:28:48] It all came back first full circle

[02:28:50] and Jimmy seemed to get his soul and conscience back.

[02:28:54] I don't know what else to say.

[02:28:55] There was so much I could probably write pages.

[02:28:57] I'm sure it will all be covered, but I'm sad it's over.

[02:29:00] It was Saul so good, man.

[02:29:02] I think I better, I like Better Call Saul

[02:29:05] more than Breaking Bad.

[02:29:07] But Better Call Saul is nothing without Breaking Bad.

[02:29:10] A full rewatch of both is probably in the near future.

[02:29:13] I'm glad you all decided to cover this show.

[02:29:14] It's been awesome.

[02:29:15] Thank you.

[02:29:16] Thank you.

[02:29:19] I've watched Breaking Bad a couple times

[02:29:21] and Better Call Saul once.

[02:29:24] I think I'm gonna rewatch Better Call Saul again

[02:29:26] from the beginning.

[02:29:27] It's just not good.

[02:29:29] Alicia Stout says, absolute perfection.

[02:29:32] The special attention to details on this show

[02:29:34] is truly amazing.

[02:29:36] Thanks to you three for always pointing them out.

[02:29:38] So now I'm super aware.

[02:29:40] Hello, hello.

[02:29:41] For example, I noticed when Saul was confessing

[02:29:44] in front of the judge and speaking about Chuck,

[02:29:46] the camera ever so slightly pans to the exit signs

[02:29:49] and softly starts buzzing.

[02:29:51] I mean, wow, how subtle but so profound.

[02:29:54] Also at the end when Kimmy visits Jim and Jail,

[02:29:58] the cigarette they share has an orange glow

[02:30:00] while they are still in black and white.

[02:30:02] I love their love.

[02:30:05] I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Marie, Walter

[02:30:07] and Mike in this episode.

[02:30:09] However, my feelings have not changed

[02:30:11] and I still hate Walter White.

[02:30:13] What a dick.

[02:30:14] I was also getting to the point,

[02:30:18] especially after the last episode

[02:30:20] where I was hating Saul,

[02:30:21] but now after watching the finale,

[02:30:23] I am back to really enjoying Saul's character or Jimmy.

[02:30:28] I can't believe it's over,

[02:30:29] but hey, they really did leave it open

[02:30:31] for anything to happen with that ending.

[02:30:34] Any bets on what if any future shows come out of this?

[02:30:38] Also, I just wanna point out

[02:30:39] that y'all have been a joy to listen to

[02:30:41] and I will surely miss this podcast.

[02:30:44] Hopefully you guys will pod together

[02:30:45] on another show in the future.

[02:30:47] Thank you.

[02:30:49] Peace out.

[02:30:51] That's really nice.

[02:30:51] And I said, you know, that would make a great review

[02:30:54] so she'd give us a review.

[02:30:55] Thank you, Alicia.

[02:30:56] Aww, thank you.

[02:30:56] I was pretty shameless.

[02:30:57] Thank you, Alicia.

[02:30:58] That's really nice.

[02:30:59] We're gonna leave our ending very open-ended.

[02:31:01] It's gonna be very ambiguous.

[02:31:02] Who knows what podcast will keep come out of this?

[02:31:05] Could be House of the Dragon.

[02:31:07] That's the point.

[02:31:08] Yeah.

[02:31:11] Mae Almardini says,

[02:31:13] Hot damn, that was a great episode.

[02:31:16] I only just started watching the show a month ago

[02:31:19] because my boyfriend wanted us

[02:31:21] to watch the finale together

[02:31:22] and it was worth the binge.

[02:31:24] I'm one of the three people that haven't watched

[02:31:26] Breaking Bad because I hated Walt

[02:31:28] after giving it one and a half seasons.

[02:31:30] So I was refusing to watch Better Call Saul

[02:31:32] but I was wrong.

[02:31:33] What a great show.

[02:31:35] Your podcast helped me understand the final few episodes

[02:31:38] because I was a bit lost with what happened in between.

[02:31:41] I do now feel compelled to go back

[02:31:42] and give Breaking Bad another chance

[02:31:44] even though I know the ending.

[02:31:47] I love that Bill Oakley became his advising counsel.

[02:31:50] I thought that was hilarious.

[02:31:52] What great acting from Bob Odenkirk.

[02:31:54] We saw so many sides to Saul

[02:31:56] but he finally redeemed himself and went back to Jimmy

[02:31:58] and it was all for love.

[02:32:00] I'd consider this a happy ending for Jimmy and Kimmy.

[02:32:04] This episode was about regrets

[02:32:05] and while Saul liked to pretend he didn't have any,

[02:32:08] Jimmy's biggest regret was becoming Saul

[02:32:10] which was caused by not trying harder with Chuck

[02:32:12] and leading to his suicide.

[02:32:14] Although Chuck was an asshole and he didn't deserve Jimmy.

[02:32:18] Can't wait to hear what you guys

[02:32:19] have to say about the episode.

[02:32:23] That's tough if you just don't like Walt at all

[02:32:25] and don't like watching him at all,

[02:32:27] Breaking Bad could be a tough watch, you know?

[02:32:30] I mean he was a tough character.

[02:32:34] I loved the character in the show so much.

[02:32:36] I mean I didn't love him but I was just so fascinated with him.

[02:32:39] The fascinating character.

[02:32:41] I mean freaking George Costanz

[02:32:43] as one of my favorite characters of all time.

[02:32:46] Yeah.

[02:32:47] So I don't have to love a character

[02:32:50] like wanna spend time with a person

[02:32:52] to enjoy watching their antics on TV.

[02:32:55] In fact sometimes it's quite the opposite, you know?

[02:32:57] But there have been characters

[02:32:59] that I just don't enjoy watching too.

[02:33:02] It almost not Karenoff a couple of times.

[02:33:04] She was just like this guy is so terrible I can't watch

[02:33:07] but the show was so good.

[02:33:08] She's so good, the writing.

[02:33:10] And like I said,

[02:33:11] there's other characters that you root for for sure.

[02:33:13] Absolutely.

[02:33:14] I just think it's great.

[02:33:16] I mean nothing is black and white, it's all gray

[02:33:18] and that's a lot with the characters in both series

[02:33:20] so that's what I find fascinating.

[02:33:25] But man,

[02:33:27] Walt got pretty black at times, pretty dark.

[02:33:29] Oh yes.

[02:33:31] Rinaldi Colleagues says this was a great episode

[02:33:34] but I'm having mixed feelings about Jimmy and Kim though

[02:33:37] and maybe you guys can inspire me

[02:33:38] to wholeheartedly like them again.

[02:33:40] After watching the flashback with Chuck

[02:33:42] I realized Chuck and Jimmy are more like brothers

[02:33:44] than I realized.

[02:33:45] Both fell into these personas

[02:33:47] and avoided telling the truth after losing their wives.

[02:33:51] Jimmy was holding on to Saul persona

[02:33:53] like Chuck did his lantern in the flashback.

[02:33:56] Both men suffered self-destruction because of it.

[02:33:59] I think when Jason has brought up how Jimmy puts on his armor

[02:34:01] instead of confronting harsh situations

[02:34:04] I think Chuck does the exact same thing,

[02:34:06] lantern, space blanket.

[02:34:08] Yeah, I was thinking about that

[02:34:09] cause I read this already

[02:34:10] and I feel like Chuck kind of does

[02:34:11] a weird combination of both.

[02:34:13] He definitely postured a lot

[02:34:15] but he also shrank away from the world

[02:34:17] by staying at home in the dark, you know?

[02:34:20] Anyway, he goes on.

[02:34:21] I'm wondering should we still be rooting for Jimmy

[02:34:23] if the Saul persona was one big lie to convince Kim?

[02:34:27] I'm doing fine when he really wasn't.

[02:34:28] Same thing Chuck did with Rebecca.

[02:34:31] We gave Howard a hard time for being too little

[02:34:33] and too late in making amends with Jimmy

[02:34:35] but isn't this the case for Jimmy's big confession

[02:34:38] in this finale, too little, too late?

[02:34:40] Maybe I'm being too hard on Jimmy, am I?

[02:34:43] Now onto Kim.

[02:34:44] Kim made a big speech about how Howard only confessed

[02:34:46] to his culpability and Chuck's death

[02:34:48] to make himself feel better.

[02:34:51] She did?

[02:34:52] Oh, Howard.

[02:34:53] Oh yeah, yeah, okay.

[02:34:54] Is that the main reason David is the most negative

[02:34:57] on Howard on the podcast?

[02:34:58] Just genuinely curious, not trying to start a war here.

[02:35:01] It's a war.

[02:35:04] Kim doesn't even realize Howard put himself in debt

[02:35:07] at this point to make up for siding with Chuck all the time.

[02:35:10] But ultimately you could argue

[02:35:11] Kim does the same thing as Howard.

[02:35:13] She confesses to Cheryl to make herself feel better

[02:35:16] and is willing to go into debt from the civil suit

[02:35:18] which is a way to make up for siding with Jimmy all the time.

[02:35:21] So should I root for Kim?

[02:35:23] Am I being too hard on Kim?

[02:35:24] Are her motivations purely altruistic?

[02:35:27] On a lighter note, Rima Joe, do you think Kim

[02:35:29] dumped that yup guy?

[02:35:30] I hope so.

[02:35:31] Maybe Kim could date Lyle, that's my head, Kim.

[02:35:34] I mean, my simple answer to all this

[02:35:35] is people are complicated

[02:35:38] and sometimes motivations may not be 100% pure

[02:35:42] but they're still worthwhile

[02:35:44] and I would say that, yeah, in my opinion

[02:35:49] you're being too hard on all of them.

[02:35:52] But you know.

[02:35:53] Well I think this is what a great show does.

[02:35:55] It takes you inside the head of a character

[02:35:57] and gives you sympathy for them

[02:35:59] even if they're not objectively

[02:36:00] what you would call a great person.

[02:36:03] I mean, you root for characters and the Godfather.

[02:36:05] They're not like great people

[02:36:08] but you get interested and you get attached.

[02:36:13] And I didn't hate Howard.

[02:36:14] I didn't think he deserved to die.

[02:36:15] I just thought he was kind of pompous and annoying.

[02:36:19] As far as like what Jimmy did, is it too little, too late?

[02:36:22] You could probably say it's too late

[02:36:24] given that some people died

[02:36:26] but I wouldn't say it was too little.

[02:36:28] I mean, he's going to jail for 86 years

[02:36:31] so and better late than never.

[02:36:32] He's paying for it, yeah.

[02:36:36] But I'm glad you wrote that, thank you.

[02:36:40] Gary J Huett says, it's showtime, pow pow.

[02:36:45] What an absolute cracker of a finale.

[02:36:47] I have no idea what to do with my life now.

[02:36:50] I love how the finale has Saul

[02:36:52] thinking and working like a lawyer again.

[02:36:55] Mike would change the first time he broke bad

[02:36:58] if he had a time machine

[02:36:59] and Saul would change the first time he scammed

[02:37:02] but Walt's time travel change

[02:37:03] is still to do with money greed

[02:37:05] and owning an empire.

[02:37:06] He has not learned anything.

[02:37:10] Good point.

[02:37:11] When Gene snuck into the rubbish bin,

[02:37:13] it reminded me of when he snuck into the bin

[02:37:15] to find the shredded documents in the sandpiper case.

[02:37:18] Also, when Gene was cackling like a madman in the cell,

[02:37:21] it reminded me of Walt in the corral space.

[02:37:24] Oh, that's a good one.

[02:37:26] Yeah, good call.

[02:37:28] When Gene calls Bill to be his lawyer,

[02:37:30] it reminded me that Jimmy was always looking

[02:37:32] to help the little guy, the underdog and still is

[02:37:35] so I really loved this scene

[02:37:37] until he heard about Kim testifying

[02:37:39] and changed his mind.

[02:37:41] It reminded me of episode winner

[02:37:44] with the intern applying to HHM, the winner takes it all.

[02:37:48] The fact that Walt told Saul he would have been

[02:37:51] the last lawyer he would have went to made me sad

[02:37:54] as he actually maybe at one point

[02:37:55] would have went to Jimmy McGill.

[02:37:59] I don't know if he would have gone to Jimmy McGill.

[02:38:02] Yeah, maybe he was like.

[02:38:03] What was kind of an arrogant snob?

[02:38:05] I don't know.

[02:38:06] Yeah.

[02:38:08] Maybe he would have went to Howard.

[02:38:11] There's always been rumors that Walter White

[02:38:13] was in prison and survived

[02:38:15] and I thought he was going to perhaps show up at the end.

[02:38:17] So glad that didn't happen.

[02:38:19] Me too.

[02:38:20] Me too.

[02:38:21] I also loved how the flame and the cigarette

[02:38:23] burned yellow a sign of their once colorful life.

[02:38:27] Thanks, Gary.

[02:38:28] Your emails have been, your messages have been

[02:38:30] really good over the course of this.

[02:38:32] I'm glad you wrote in a lot.

[02:38:34] Really good.

[02:38:35] Had a lot of great feedback from our listeners.

[02:38:37] A lot of people.

[02:38:38] So insightful.

[02:38:40] Yeah, I mean this whole pod,

[02:38:41] I love what people notice that like

[02:38:44] we spend hours dissecting this thing.

[02:38:47] Always like, I didn't think of that.

[02:38:48] I know.

[02:38:49] Great point.

[02:38:50] It makes the letters, yeah,

[02:38:52] that this part even more interesting

[02:38:53] when something new comes up.

[02:38:56] We have three calls to go.

[02:38:58] Here's Samantha.

[02:38:59] I'm not sure but I think she may have

[02:39:01] called before the finale.

[02:39:03] So this might be like last week's episode or something.

[02:39:05] But I also want to mention that she,

[02:39:07] without her we may not be doing this

[02:39:09] because she was the one who kept pushing.

[02:39:11] Like you should do better call Saul

[02:39:12] and then a couple other people came in.

[02:39:14] So I'm like, all right, let's see if people want to do it.

[02:39:16] Well thank you to everyone that pushed.

[02:39:20] So here we go.

[02:39:21] Hey guys, it's Sam here from Queensland, Australia.

[02:39:25] I just wanted to send you in some feedback

[02:39:27] before you guys record on the final episode.

[02:39:29] I haven't watched it yet.

[02:39:31] I'm going to today.

[02:39:32] And I haven't ever had a chance to send you guys

[02:39:35] in any feedback or notes on this season

[02:39:39] because I always miss or I'm too late.

[02:39:41] Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you guys

[02:39:44] for podcasting on this awesome series

[02:39:47] and also give a quick shout out to David

[02:39:49] for pointing out all of the electric blue

[02:39:51] that he noticed during the first half of this season

[02:39:56] because it made me excited about Breaking Bad.

[02:39:58] So I actually went back and did a rewatch

[02:40:00] of all of Breaking Bad in between the two halves

[02:40:04] of this final season of Better Call Saul.

[02:40:07] And God, it's just such a good, such a great series.

[02:40:10] And I'm just so thankful that you guys covered

[02:40:12] the last season of Better Call Saul

[02:40:15] even though it's only the last season

[02:40:17] maybe as I've suggested before

[02:40:19] you could go back and do a rewatch.

[02:40:20] That would be awesome.

[02:40:22] Anyway, thank you.

[02:40:24] I'm off to go and watch the final episode now.

[02:40:28] And I don't, I'm not really excited to watch it

[02:40:31] because then I know that it's all over.

[02:40:34] But in the last, in your last podcast

[02:40:37] you guys were talking about exploring other stories

[02:40:42] in the universe, but I would really love to go back

[02:40:45] and see who exactly is Gus Fring.

[02:40:48] That's a good point.

[02:40:49] Remembering back into Breaking Bad

[02:40:51] when someone said, oh, I would have,

[02:40:53] I think I'm not sure who it was

[02:40:55] said I would have killed you

[02:40:57] except I know who you are.

[02:40:58] So I don't know if he's really interested to know

[02:41:01] who is Gus Fring, where did he come from

[02:41:04] and what was his history?

[02:41:07] Anyway, thank you again guys.

[02:41:09] It's really appreciated for all your time and effort

[02:41:13] and I will be listening as always.

[02:41:15] See ya.

[02:41:16] Yeah, that's a good point.

[02:41:17] We didn't really fully get that story explained.

[02:41:21] Yeah.

[02:41:22] Thanks Sam.

[02:41:23] Great, great Colin.

[02:41:24] I actually had the same thought.

[02:41:26] I was trying to think about

[02:41:27] who could you even do a spin off of at this point?

[02:41:31] And that was the one that came to my mind,

[02:41:33] like young Gus.

[02:41:34] Need a young Gus.

[02:41:35] But then it would have to be somebody else

[02:41:36] doing the role of justice.

[02:41:38] It definitely would.

[02:41:40] That's big shoes to fill for sure.

[02:41:42] The only other series I wanna see is Badger and Skinny Pete.

[02:41:47] I'd love to see what's up with Badger and Skinny Pete.

[02:41:49] With a piano tour.

[02:41:50] Yeah.

[02:41:51] I could watch just a show of those two

[02:41:54] playing video games and bantering.

[02:41:57] And yeah, so great.

[02:41:58] Thank you so much Samantha.

[02:42:00] That was really nice and thoughtful.

[02:42:02] That was nice.

[02:42:03] All right, here's our final Better Call Saul

[02:42:07] call from Steve Brown.

[02:42:09] All right, we've arrived.

[02:42:11] The serious finale Better Call Saul.

[02:42:15] Hi, it's Steve.

[02:42:18] So this conversation probably had to happen

[02:42:20] during that whole

[02:42:22] when they were carrying the money for Lalo, right?

[02:42:24] Oh wow, and now we pick up right where we left off

[02:42:26] with Gene, Victor, Jimmy, whatever, running away.

[02:42:32] Well I guess the police did get him out of the dumpster

[02:42:35] and now he's arrested.

[02:42:37] I don't know what this tells us about his character

[02:42:39] that he is calling the Cinnabon to tell him,

[02:42:41] hey, you're the new manager.

[02:42:43] Wow, he's like, I'm still gonna be on top.

[02:42:46] How this ends and we'll see Saul.

[02:42:49] With calling Bill Oakley.

[02:42:51] So this plea hearing they were talking about stuff

[02:42:53] that he did during Breaking Bad, right?

[02:42:56] Yeah, with this widow.

[02:42:57] You notice also he's clean shaven now

[02:42:59] and looking like Saul I guess.

[02:43:02] I'm confused with the timeline here

[02:43:04] because he said two years ago from now,

[02:43:06] this plea hearing was when he met Walter White

[02:43:09] for the first time.

[02:43:10] So the events of Breaking Bad from his period

[02:43:14] until the beginning it was only, I don't understand.

[02:43:20] Wow, all that was an act,

[02:43:22] that whole monologue about him being afraid

[02:43:26] to get a lighter sentence.

[02:43:27] Wow.

[02:43:28] Oh and we get a quick glimpse of a commercial saying that

[02:43:31] both Bob Odin Kirk and Jean Carlos Esposito

[02:43:34] are coming back in different series later, 2023.

[02:43:38] Wow.

[02:43:38] Ice cream, that's what he's hinging

[02:43:41] this whole deal on ice cream.

[02:43:42] All right so now we get why the importance

[02:43:44] of Kim's statement last week was, yep.

[02:43:49] I can't believe I just said yep.

[02:43:52] What part of Breaking Bad is this with Walter White

[02:43:54] and Saul Goodman sharing a room?

[02:43:57] You would have been the last lawyer I would have went to.

[02:44:01] Oh come on Saul, now you're gonna jam Kimmy up, come on.

[02:44:07] Oh so this is prompted Kim to go voluntarily late from.

[02:44:11] Or is there an altering motive?

[02:44:13] Whoa, he negotiated that down to seven years, wow.

[02:44:18] Is Saul taking his case on purpose

[02:44:20] because Kim is in the room?

[02:44:23] His own attorney is objecting to his testimony.

[02:44:26] If he goes on the record saying that Howard killed himself

[02:44:29] that contradicts Kim's statement,

[02:44:31] so her civil lawsuit goes away, right?

[02:44:35] Oh nice, by the way, Kian cameo.

[02:44:38] Is that why he wanted to go to this

[02:44:40] or he said he didn't want to go to this prison?

[02:44:43] Because he thought he'd be revered.

[02:44:46] Wow, to help her out, he took 86 years.

[02:44:49] Aw, and that's the end.

[02:44:53] Well he thought Jimmy did what he did to help Kim.

[02:44:57] Is that what you think David?

[02:44:58] You didn't really weigh in on that.

[02:45:00] Yeah I thought so, I thought part of the whole point

[02:45:03] of that was he was taking all the responsibility

[02:45:06] on himself.

[02:45:09] Yeah I guess that would be a good thing to do.

[02:45:11] It just seems like after she confessed to Cheryl

[02:45:16] and her sign confession I'm not sure how that would work.

[02:45:20] I mean I do think she can still be sued in civil court

[02:45:23] but a lot of this episode revolved around

[02:45:25] her potential criminal liability

[02:45:30] and again I think she gets sued in civil court,

[02:45:33] she doesn't have anything.

[02:45:34] But I think they already said that the DA

[02:45:37] was not prosecuting though, didn't they?

[02:45:40] At the beginning of the episode.

[02:45:43] So I don't know.

[02:45:45] Anyway one more call, it's from Claire who

[02:45:49] guested a couple of times this season

[02:45:52] and let's hear what she has to say.

[02:45:55] Hey Jason, Reema and David, it's Claire from Colorado,

[02:46:00] not Montrose, Colorado where Saul Goodman will be

[02:46:04] serving the 86 year prison sentence

[02:46:06] but from Colorado nonetheless.

[02:46:09] And I'm here to leave feedback for the Better Call Saul

[02:46:12] series finale.

[02:46:16] Oh my goodness, what an amazing ride

[02:46:19] this entire show has been and the season

[02:46:22] series finale did not disappoint.

[02:46:25] I thought it was exhilarating from start to finish.

[02:46:29] Satisfying, emotional, definitely earned.

[02:46:35] I really can't wait to hear you guys podcast

[02:46:37] on this episode because there was just so much content,

[02:46:41] so much good stuff to dive into.

[02:46:44] I felt like a kid in a candy store.

[02:46:46] My favorite parts of course were probably the cameos.

[02:46:51] I've loved the recent cameos but I really loved Marie

[02:46:55] in this episode, I thought she gave

[02:46:56] a really strong performance.

[02:47:00] And I loved Walt and hearing him discuss regrets.

[02:47:04] Silly me, I thought he might talk about Wayfair

[02:47:08] or Jane or leaving his family.

[02:47:10] But of course it comes back to his ego

[02:47:13] and he brings up gray matter and Gretchen and Elliott.

[02:47:15] So his true colors kind of show them through there.

[02:47:21] But I was so happy to see Jimmy,

[02:47:24] I'm glad the episode wasn't Jimmy on the run

[02:47:27] the whole time but that beginning scene with him

[02:47:30] in the dumpster and the tension

[02:47:32] and the frustration when he tums those diamonds

[02:47:36] but then the police, the guns pointed on him

[02:47:41] and just seeing him face the music

[02:47:44] in proper Saul Goodman fashion

[02:47:47] that was really just delightful to see him work his magic

[02:47:52] even though it was so despicable

[02:47:54] and get the prosecutor down to seven years.

[02:48:00] And I wasn't really quite sure of his motives

[02:48:02] or why he changed things.

[02:48:04] I guess it was Kim, I guess that was his way

[02:48:08] of making a time machine and making things right

[02:48:11] and because losing Kim I'm sure was his biggest regret.

[02:48:15] And so seeing him set that right was really great,

[02:48:21] definitely satisfying.

[02:48:22] And I, but my favorite cameo back to cameos

[02:48:26] was Chuck McGill.

[02:48:27] I just loved the character of Chuck McGill.

[02:48:29] I love Michael McKeon and I really appreciated

[02:48:33] they brought him back that was a big surprise to me

[02:48:36] and it really felt like earlier seasons of Better Call Saul

[02:48:40] just seeing the care and love

[02:48:45] that they had for each other despite the dysfunction.

[02:48:47] It was just such a great scene

[02:48:49] and probably my favorite scene though

[02:48:51] was the scene in the prison between Kim and Jimmy

[02:48:57] and seeing them share that cigarette

[02:48:59] just so reminiscent of so many moments

[02:49:02] we've seen between them the complicated relationship

[02:49:04] that they shared that was all wrapped up nicely.

[02:49:09] And I loved seeing the return of the real Kim Wexler

[02:49:14] going to legal aid and getting back

[02:49:18] to what she's passionate about

[02:49:19] which is helping people through the law.

[02:49:21] It was just wonderful, great episode, very satisfying.

[02:49:25] Maybe they even won me over to Jimmy McGill's side again.

[02:49:29] I love to see him come back to the actual Jimmy McGill

[02:49:34] but great episode, can't wait to hear you guys podcast on it.

[02:49:38] So for now, God bless and it's all good man.

[02:49:43] That was so good.

[02:49:45] Thanks, Claire.

[02:49:48] A lot of great feedback, a lot of great calls.

[02:49:50] Thanks everyone.

[02:49:52] Thank you.

[02:49:53] Did you guys see the little thank you

[02:49:54] at the end of the episode for the credits?

[02:49:58] It was so nice.

[02:49:59] Yeah, Bob.

[02:50:00] It was nice little send-off.

[02:50:02] I just want to say hi.

[02:50:03] Yeah, it was good.

[02:50:04] I saw a little video today too of Kim,

[02:50:06] or well, Ray Seahorn saying thank you

[02:50:09] and goodbye on the set.

[02:50:10] It was heart wrenching.

[02:50:15] Gonna miss it.

[02:50:18] Yep, yep, yep.

[02:50:29] All right, that is our show.

[02:50:30] Thanks so much everybody.

[02:50:32] Thank you guys.

[02:50:35] Are you glad we covered this?

[02:50:37] If you had a time machine, would you go back and not do it?

[02:50:39] Or?

[02:50:40] No, definitely.

[02:50:41] I wouldn't change a thing.

[02:50:44] Zero regrets on doing this.

[02:50:46] I wish we had done it a lot sooner.

[02:50:49] We did so much chatter because so many of us

[02:50:51] loved this series but it's like timing never worked out

[02:50:55] but I'm so glad we could come together for the final.

[02:51:00] Absolutely.

[02:51:01] Yeah, it was fun and great for me

[02:51:04] because it's such a great show

[02:51:07] and there's so much to talk about

[02:51:09] and there's room for different points of view

[02:51:13] which is cool and exploring different ideas with it

[02:51:16] and you guys and the way that we all

[02:51:18] brought our own perspectives.

[02:51:20] I thought it was a very good mix of posts

[02:51:23] that made it even more engaging and stuff

[02:51:25] so thanks.

[02:51:26] I'm glad you guys both wanted to do it.

[02:51:26] It's very good.

[02:51:27] It was a blast and it helped me

[02:51:29] enjoy the show much more, get very immersed in it.

[02:51:33] I will say if I had a time machine I'd go back

[02:51:35] and invest one penny in Patreon

[02:51:38] at the very beginning of podcastica

[02:51:40] now I'd be a player.

[02:51:41] Oh man.

[02:51:42] That's nice.

[02:51:44] Well this has been a great ride for me

[02:51:46] so thank you guys for having me on

[02:51:48] and letting me totally nerd out

[02:51:50] on this absolutely amazing show.

[02:51:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[02:51:56] All right that is it, that is our show.

[02:51:59] Thanks for listening.

[02:52:01] Saw good man.

[02:52:05] You drink one, drink two, drink three long island iced teas

[02:52:10] but your buddy's worse off and he throws you his car keys.

[02:52:14] Blue lights superlinking four o'clock in the morning

[02:52:16] Trooper makes you wish that you'd never been born.

[02:52:18] Better call Saul, better call Saul.

[02:52:22] You wanna tell the world you're in love

[02:52:24] with a girl named Fran?

[02:52:26] So you find an overpass and you say it

[02:52:28] with a spray paint can.

[02:52:31] Blue lights start a blank and those handcuffs click.

[02:52:33] You know who to call and you better call Quinn.

[02:52:35] Saul, Saul you better call Saul.

[02:52:37] You'll fight for your rights when you're back to the wall.

[02:52:39] Stick it to the man just as strong.

[02:52:43] You better call Saul.