7: "Legacy" & "Ice Chips" (S3E7&8) + Potatoes

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Lucy and I'm Peter and this is Let It Rip

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The Bear Cast Episode 6. This episode we're covering the Bear Season 3 Episode 7 Legacy

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and Episode 8 Ice Chips. I could do with some ice chips. Yeah it's been hot by our

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: standards lately. Yeah it's too hot. Mostly because you've been away in places that are

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: much hotter than we're used to, but then of all the bad manners you came back and

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the place that you live decided to have an unusually hot weekend. It's disgusting,

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really upset. You have been let down by Britain in a way that it rarely does.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so let down. I was hoping for rain and grey skies and just a nice chill temperature

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and instead we've had like in the 20s Celsius we've been able to hang washing

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: out the sun shining. It's repulsive. Yeah where's the comforting blanket of just being a bit

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: miserable inside? I hate it, I hate it because yeah we've spent the last week not being in

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the same place. It's very true. Listeners might remember that we were doing a bunch

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: of travel together the last time that we recorded. We recorded in Krakow. Indeed we

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: did. After that I headed home so the the cats and I were in the house for a week living

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: out the freezer. Meanwhile Lucy. I was at Wikimania. I do a bit of work with Wikipedia

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and Wikimedia and I got to go to Katowice in Poland to go to Wikimania. There was

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like over a thousand Wikimedians there, it was very cool. I met a lot of very awesome

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: people. It honestly looked really really fun and you made a mug. I did. There was

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a pottery class where we didn't make a mug so much as I designed like sponged

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the design onto it poorly. It looks kind of like a child did it but I'm very proud

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of it nonetheless. I would be impressed by that child. Yeah well so I guess I'm really

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: interested to know then what the best thing you ate in the last week was because

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I've not been here so I actually don't know any of what you ate. Well you got

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: back just long enough to make some really awesome ramen tonight and it was

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: great. All from scratch, you made your own stock. I did. Yeah I did it was

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting. I'm always quite scared of making stock because I don't super love

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: cooking chicken and I don't know why. I just I get grossed out by it and I'm

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: always worried that I'm gonna under cook it so I always overcook it and

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: there was one horrible soup that you made. It was a bad soup. We think

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it might have been the recipe, we won't name and shame the chef whose

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: recipe it was. I do think you may have misread the recipe but either way

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: what we ended up with was a very salty chewy chicken situation and that kind of

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: put me off the idea of poaching or boiling chicken for a long time. Yeah

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's also this thing that I think if anyone said what are you

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna do with this bit of chicken? If someone said boil it, you'd think

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you're a monster. You've swept past all the good ways. We did boil it.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I boiled some chicken thighs very briefly not for very long at all

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: again because I was terribly scared that I was gonna make it chewy and it

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: came out quite nice. The secret I think was the spice that they

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: recommended we put into it which is called, I'm just looking it up now

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I should have looked this up beforehand. I followed a recipe

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: called quick shredded chicken ramen which I can link to in the

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: show notes and it was really good. Well I did and I didn't. I did

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: one of my favorite books about cookery is called an everlasting meal and it

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: has lots of really basic like how do you make a chicken broth? How do you

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: fry some onions nicely? The one we like is how do you

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: rehydrate and cook beans well? So I read their basic advice about how to

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: make a chicken broth and then I leapt into this recipe. So it's

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: shichimi togarashi which is a really cool kind of compound spice

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really popular in Japanese cooking. It's like assorted chili peppers.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Very delicious, really enrich the ramen but I was quite surprised by what

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the key ingredient was when you told me over dinner.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah well the version of it that we bought used a great deal

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: of citrus peel which really really surprised me.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Specifically orange peel. Yeah and really really nice.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it was absolutely delicious and it had a real kick to it. I'd also

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: bought because I was feeling fancy and very tired yesterday I'd bought

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: this jar of peanut ryeo which is like crispy chili oil but with

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: peanuts in it. So I was kind of looking for a vessel for that.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So ramen was my chosen vessel. Also like I ate amazing food in

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the last couple of weeks like it's been so wonderful to be in

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Eastern Europe and learn about their flavors learn about the

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: same cuisine for a certain amount of time. You are like I just

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: want to have something completely different. So I hopped onto the

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: ramen train and one of the panels at Wikimania was about

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Polish cuisine and I was able to drop in for 20 minutes

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: or so and that was really interesting. There was loads of

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Polish experts talking about the history of food in Poland,

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how foraging factors into modern Polish cuisine and the

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: key flavor profiles of Polish food and the history and politics

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of it and I just thought it was really really interesting.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say I never thought I'd say this I may have

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: had too much potato in the last week. Yeah, it's been a

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: source of some amusement between Lucy and I for most

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of this week that she phoned me up one night described a

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: trip to the conference dinner which was great. It was

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: great. But you had six things on your plate that

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: were all potatoes. Yeah, they were all potato based and I

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't realize until you pointed it out because I was like

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: really quite gross. My stomach hurts and you're like

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you have just listed six things that all have potatoes in them.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It was great. It was like potato pancakes, potato dumplings

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: some standard just like mashed potatoes in a fun shape.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you were starch deficient before you

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: went away, but I'm very confident that your starch

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: levels are there. What is it that potatoes prevent scurvy?

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely don't have scurvy. Potatoes don't

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: prevent scurvy. Listeners? Oh no, no shut up.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they do. I'm Googling this potatoes scurvy.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it was really bad in the Irish potato

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: family of 1845 to 1848. It's a chief source of vitamin C.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So when you do not have access to potatoes, you

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: can be lacking in vitamin C and you can get scurvy.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So ha ha well, I mean not for the people in anywhere

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: across the world. That's terrible. It's terrible thing to happen.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it is a preventative of C scurvy as well.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: There's an academic article from 1842.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So Google is also suggesting to me just below do

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: prevent potatoes prevent scurvy which apparently they

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: do. Do potatoes prevent constipation?

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to know the answer?

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Go on. I just don't see potatoes as having an

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: impact one way or the other on that particular element.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, apparently they have soluble fiber inside

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and insoluble fiber in the outer skin.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They're recommended as a source of fiber.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, yeah, so we haven't really cooked anything

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: together in the last week and we were conscious of

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: getting this podcast out to you on time.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've gone ahead without a cooking section just

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a digression about potatoes.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: However, for the finale episode, we think we may

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: be a few days late because we want to have a

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: bit of extra time to prepare and we want to

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: cook something special.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So stay tuned to see what that will be and after

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that point we'll decide whether or not we're going

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to go into a rewatch.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we might take some time off to decide

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: either way because we've had a bit of a busy

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: summer. You bet we have.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's too hot.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I've mentioned that already.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so I'm going to hand over to you

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to take the lead for this one.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so let's talk about the show and the

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: first episode that we watched was season 3

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: episode 7, Legacy.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Legacy.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Legacy.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to put it out there right now

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think Legacy is within the context

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: of this season one of our kind of

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: inter-media, our sort of bridging episodes

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a violet?

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: between big events.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's more of a violet than a napkin

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: is my theory about it.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's legit.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's legit.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I would agree.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It felt very short in comparison to the

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: episode that came after.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I did enjoy it.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought actually I'll say this for Legacy

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it had some brilliant needle drops in it.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Really enjoyed that, but it did feel a bit

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: placeholder-y.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: There were a couple of scenes in it where

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like do we really need this?

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, would I do I think it was placeholder-y?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's placeholder-y.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the show wanted to spend a bit

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of time telling us where the characters

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: are within the plot and I suppose the

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: funny thing is bookending Legacy, we

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: have napkins and we have ice chips.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And those are both episodes that don't

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: really advance the story of this

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: season which is supposed to be keeping

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this restaurant off.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: If you like both of those episodes

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: are really kind of beats where we go

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: off and spend a long time on a specific

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: issue, a specific issue that's

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting but not something that

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: actually arguably advances the plot.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So the funny thing is although I'm

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: calling Legacy a kind of bridge, it's

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: actually in some ways the story

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: moving forward faster than the

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: episodes on either side, but it's

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting I think that we're still

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: looking at it as an intermediate

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: episode because I think it suggests

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that maybe those pauses where they

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: step aside and do something a bit

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: more unusual I think they're engaging

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: more. I'm a bit worried about

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Karmie after this episode. Go on.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess it's my first point

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: really is the actual conversation

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about Legacy which happens between

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Sid Marcus and Karmie and Sid comes

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: into the scene having just come from

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: her meeting with Adam Shapiro playing

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Adam Shapiro. Is there an Adam

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Shapiro verse? I think there is

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the Shapiro verse that could be

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the next podcast to podcast. So Sid's

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously got her future on her

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: mind, but it starts with Marcus looking

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: at Karmie's amazing notebook of

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: illustrations asking what the meaning

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of Leisure Domaine is which is

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: sleight of hand, but then they talk

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: about Legacy looking at the pictures

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of the restaurateurs and Karmie

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: describes the idea of Legacy in the

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: restaurant world as being who chefs

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: work with and what they go on to

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: do people who take a thing and

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: ideas somewhere else seeing parts

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of an original restaurant in a new

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: restaurant and how will these parts

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: find each other like a family tree

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or something. I thought that was

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: really really interesting, but the

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: three of them all answer the question

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what do you want? What do you think

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about Legacy and which I think in

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: this context is what do you want

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: your Legacy to be and Sid says

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: hers is just thinking about getting

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: through Wednesday because she's I

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: think so wrapped up in this

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: decision of whether or not to join

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Shapiro. Marcus says I mean his is

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: delightful he wants his Legacy to be

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I kept my chin up listen and

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: learn did honest work. I was fun to

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: be around in an excellent emergency

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: contact, but the way that Karmie

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: talks about it. I don't know I

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: found it a bit alarming he talks

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: about if I were going to leave

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: something behind I'd want it to

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: be panicless anxiety-free square

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: with everything and everybody to

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: make it good I'd have to filter

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: out the bad and with the

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: concerns I have about Karmie's

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: mental health generally this

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: sounds like somebody who's thought

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: about making an exit and is

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about tying up loose ends

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and squaring things before moving

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: on or doing something different

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and it did make me wonder if

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: he's been coping or struggling

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: with suicidal ideation a little bit

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: just something about the language

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that he used there was so

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: pragmatic and so he didn't have

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to reach for it that I was just

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: a bit like this feels like it's

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: been at the front of your

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: mind a little bit. You know,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I can I can definitely see

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: where you're coming from about

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that and I think we both agree

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the Karmie is not very well

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: probably throughout the Bayer

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but especially in this season

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: something that did interest me

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: about that interaction was on

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the most surface level Karmie's

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: presenting this as it's like

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: ancestry. It's what generations

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of chef passed down to the

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: next generations sort of

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: inherited traits which would

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: be very relevant in Sid's

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: mind when she's weighing up

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: possibility of going to another

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: restaurant. So, you know,

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it has some significance to

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: her in that context I suppose,

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah, I agree with you that

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, typically in a

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: piece of fiction where you hear

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: a character talking about their

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: legacy or something going

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just the way he

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: says about this idea of tying

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: up loose ends and making

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: things square. It's almost like

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: getting the house in order

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: which is something that comes

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: up as well with Natalie

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and Richie talking about the

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: arrival of the baby, but

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, that just read there

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: were little alarm bells there

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: for me especially when the

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: episode opens with him thinking

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: about Claire and we also see

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: him, I mean on a good, on

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the one hand he is still going

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to Al-Anon but we're listening

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to monologues from participants

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: about apologies and moving

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on and this other participant

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the group talks about

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: apologies being stuck in

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: your ribs, heart and lungs

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: where every mistake you've

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: ever made everything you've

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: ever done wrong you hold

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: onto those words so tight

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: they ain't never letting go.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's this sense of

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: crippling guilt that he feels

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're looking at like

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a month or two since he was

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: literally fridged.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, he hasn't made

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: any progress with that

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: situation with Claire and

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I just, I

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: worry. I worry.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's, I

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: think that's totally

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: appropriate.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. What's your first

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: point?

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think my, my first

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: point is just to draw

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: attention to a tiny, a

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: tiny little moment at the

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: rest, at the end of the

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: episode because I think, I

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: think it was maybe a little

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: a little clue or a little

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Easter egg the show was

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: wanting to, wanting to

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: throw our way and it might

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: even be relevant to your

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: point. So you might

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: remember that at the

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: end of episode Suga is

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: off to go and get the

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: C-folds.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: She gets into the car and

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: she repeats a line that's

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: coming through her sound

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: system. Maybe she's

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: listening to an audiobook

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: or something like that.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the radio.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or maybe it's the

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: radio.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's enabler

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: hero scape got mascot lost

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: child.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And do you know what that's from?

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the five types of children of alcoholics.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Very well done.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this, you've got this note as well, don't you?

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it says it in the radio.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It says the five types of children of alcoholics and yeah, but go on.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So it is now more commonly, more commonly the list actually uses six.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: There are very, there are very variations on this, but the most common

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: version of the list actually includes a sixth one, which is the golden child.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I had a different sixth one.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What was your sixth one?

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The addict.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I have enabler.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I thought hero was maybe or mascot would be golden child, but

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's different interpretations of this list.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So please go on.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So listeners are other cat, Tommen, who's usually quieter is going off in

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the background because there is another cat in our backyard and we can't tell

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: if he's horny or upset.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So apologies if he's picking up on the mic there.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Go on, Peter, with your serious point about children of alcoholics.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Our golden child can continue in the background.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So apparently this was all stuff that I didn't really know anything about.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the idea of list of dysfunctional family roles as you pointed out already.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The origin of the thinking is typically in the families of alcoholics or addicts.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The first person to write about this idea was someone called Virginia Satir or

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Satter.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I am afraid I don't know the pronunciation, but she identified that children in

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: these environments would tend to take on one of these roles.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I read a really interesting article by Erin Qualey on Den of Geek.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Erin Qualey, she first came to my attention because she wrote an article

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: about Rick and Michonne and why we love post-apocalyptic love stories.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But Erin Qualey is actually a therapist and does work on trauma and addiction.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And she wrote a really interesting story about the burzattos in relation to

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: this episode.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So she argues that Mikey is the mascot and hero of the family.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He was also a secret sixth choice that isn't introduced an addict.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's the oldest child.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So he takes on those two roles.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it talks about Karmie being the lost child.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Even with success, he still takes on that role in the family.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Sugar is the middle child, but as the only daughter, she becomes

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the enabler and the caretaker, a role that often falls to women in

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: dysfunctional family structure.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And yet she chose to marry Pete, a man who is also very clearly a caretaker.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: His presence, she says, in Sugar's life is a strong indicator that she's

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: been trying to work on herself for some time.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought that was really interesting.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was interesting that the writers went there.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that it's interesting that we get such a clear indication that

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Sugar has got the self-awareness.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, how did you feel about it?

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I found an article on Medium by someone called I.D.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Clube?

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Or Prybe.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, just a very, very similar survey of the essentials of it.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: However, I would argue that on this account of it, Carmy fits surprisingly

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: well into the hero role.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So again, this is a summary for people who don't know anything

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: about this like me, but some of the highlights.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: This child tends to become a compulsive overachiever, excelling

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: through sports academics or any other area that might bring

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: pride unto the family.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Pressure can cause the hero to become overly responsible and perfectionistic,

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: causing problems at the beginning of childhood and radiating to adulthood.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They may berate themselves for tiny mistakes and experience a deep-seated

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: fear of appearing as anything less than perfect.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I'll say.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Go on.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: As a therapy experienced individual, you can be more than one thing.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course you can.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And at different stages in your life, I think being a hero and a

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: lost child are probably quite similar spaces to inhabit.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really interesting when you start to kind of apply a sort of

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: therapeutic lens to how people act in the bear.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the strongest parts of season one was seeing

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: how those roles unfold without one of the key dynamics in it,

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which is that Mikey's not there.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I've never seen a show do so well with rendering the absence

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of somebody to be so palpable.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But I thought, you know, we know so much because Sugar can list those

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: things off the top of her head.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: She's clearly read the book.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She's done the work.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: She's gone to the therapy.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I liked, I think what Quayley says about her relationship with

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Pete in the sense of like, that is a sensible choice.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that is a good choice for her.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a healthy choice.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, she could have ended up with someone like Mikey or Karmie.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead she's made a healthy choice to be with someone who is

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: essentially boring and supportive, but it's very much what she needs.

[00:20:16] Yeah.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There's never any suggestion they have anything other than a really,

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: really good marriage.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I also was quite touched with how much like Pete seems to genuinely love

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Dee Dee and like she seems to be one of the only people who genuinely likes

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: him, presumably because she never found out about the tuna casserole.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They have, they have a weirdly good relationship.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they have a weirdly nice dynamic.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing though.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a problematic parent, often the people around you will

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: adore that parent or I wouldn't say that Pete doesn't see what

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: she is because he must see what she is and what that does to Natalie.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a lot easier to be empathetic and understanding

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of somebody who's not your parent.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the, the burzattos in general don't really treat Pete as one of them.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe because of that, he has that little bit of remove.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's, he's not quite in that toxicity to the same degree.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that, that is, that was the most interesting thing to pop up in this

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: episode was the show suddenly saying, here, there's this area of thinking about

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: all of this that we're aware of and it was complete news to me.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew nothing about this at all.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was an interesting thing to learn about.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you sweet summer child.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have, do you have another point?

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: No, none.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm joking.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, of course I do.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I sidebar felt that like everyone going into this episode was like, sugar's

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously going to go into labor.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's so heavily signposted that like, yes.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think I might be over the facts.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's too repetitive?

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I've been over fact, like I like the little slices of life and stuff,

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but I feel that the scenes, the kind of fact family are best used in small doses.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That said, I will still be delighted if and when we get to meet Francine Fack.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think the, you know, it's like, um, it's like a, you know, a Shakespeare

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: play, you know, every so often they cut to two, two members of the peasantry

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: who are-

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Doing exactly that kind of thing.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They seem to do the same thing with the facts.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Interestingly, um, uncle Gary, um, I was trying to work out if uncle

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Gary was a cameo and nowhere could I find the internet telling me that

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: uncle Gary was a cameo.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: However, uncle Gary has a surprisingly interesting, um, CV, at least in the

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: arts.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So uncle Gary has very, very few credits on IMDB, but most of them are, he

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: has a small number of unnamed, sort of like mostly background roles, um, about

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: four of those.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But his other four roles are all as a CTA consultant, uh, which in this

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: context is I believe Chicago Transit Authority.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Chicago Transit Authority.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So he must be a Chicago local then.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a Chicago local and he's an expert, I think on, it sounds like

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: probably the railways.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Ah.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I wondered when he gives his little almost like a monologue, he's

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, talking about getting your-

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He's talking about the L.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I, I don't know exactly what that was, but I think they were doing a

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: little thing again, bringing in someone who's very much a Chicago person.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just thought that was kind of neat, but I, I couldn't find any, any

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: like little articles or anything like that saying, yes, you're right about

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: this Peter, you know, this is, this is deliberate.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope we have a listener who can tell us.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me too.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think I feel very unqualified to say this because as you can probably

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: tell we are two very Scottish people who have been to Chicago twice.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We do have family there, but we've, we have no ownership over it.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But I do feel strongly that a lot of the Bayer is a love letter to Chicago.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, you know, there's, there's so much of the city in it.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: As I see it, people from Chicago might look at this and be like,

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: this is absolute crap.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like some of the shows that they say in Scotland where I'm like,

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that would clearly never happen here.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But it does seem like that's a core part of its fabric.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So it wouldn't surprise me if he's a kind of staple.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they work really hard to situate it in that, in that place and

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: acknowledge that place.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's, I think that's really nice.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that I do, I still like, I'll still watch the facts.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like I'm like, Oh God, turn off.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just one of those things where I'm like, let's

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: move on to other things.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I thought it was interesting that Ted Fack and Gary have a chat

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: about Gary's former life as an athlete.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That was an interesting, I'd like to know more about Gary.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling like maybe next season we're going to get Gary's

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Forks episode, I don't know.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's a whole series on its own.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: This idea of him being a former minor league.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I know he has this crazy back story.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Ybra as well.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, huh?

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What's your story?

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I did enjoy that, but I was conscious that I was like,

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of wanted to know more about where the main plot of this is going.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe more about Gary, maybe less Fack.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this was a concern.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I came in with it the start of the season that it lacked a really strong hook.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe, maybe it lacked an urgency.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, season two has a very, really strong urgency about it,

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think, I think could be missing and maybe I hear what you're saying

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: about wanting, you know, get on with the story.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you've put it much nicer than that.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Essentially.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think if you ask me, what was the event that we're working towards?

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in Legacy, we were, as you say, I completely agree.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We were very clearly working towards Sugar going into labor.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was loud and clear.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: There were multiple conversations about giving birth.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Sugar has a chat with Tina and with Richie.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: She had nice conversations with both of those characters about having children.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I learned about S-pillows.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: S-pillows sound great.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like for context, we should be very clear that we do not have children.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not kid people.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So like, I did watch this and think like, this is all very emotional and very moving.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably am not the best person to comment on either the reality of the labor

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: scenes or some of the kind of inbuilt issues.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But in the words of Marcus, I do know what it is to be a kid.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So I shan't undermine myself that way.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we had some, you and I had an interesting chat about S-pillows

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and about cervixes.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I learned some stuff.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You did learn some stuff.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a bit worried about the public education system in Scotland in the 90s, but yeah,

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you did learn some stuff.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I tried to persuade Lucy that we should do a women's health segment in this episode.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Wisely she distracted me with something brightly colored.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I did.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no thank you.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not for us.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not for us to talk about.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, S-pillows, labor, eating spicy food.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds very stressful.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And do you have another point or is that just a flawless segue into the next episode?

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I do have some other stuff about this one.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let me have a wee look.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: My notes are not very organized.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Richie's not doing very well.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think in some ways Richie's doing very well.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in other ways he's doing less well.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Tiff's wedding must be coming up and he got a bit emotional when

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to Sugar about both the restaurant, worrying about cancellations and choosing

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to let go and be positive as being the only move.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But his story about Tiff and her labor where he struggles with the past and present

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: tense of love and loved of a restaurant, you know, they love it, but also that's

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: in the past for them now.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They've changed to having loved it.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: How much he seemed to value that experience of having a child with her and about his

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: trip with Mikey and not really being able to say whether or not it was fun.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a really good way of showing that grief can catch you unaware.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you can be somewhere doing something completely unrelated where a memory

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: will pop up or someone will ask you something and suddenly you're right back in it.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I appreciate that.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's important to recognize.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have another point about this episode?

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got some more notes.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: No, bring it.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that it?

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I will go through my more notes then.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about Shapiro and Sid.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's got the backers from Ever.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He wants her as a CDC chef to come.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The vibe will be whatever she wants it to be.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She'll get 50k to start with benefits, medical and a bonus upon review.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like a pretty good offer.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And what does Carmue do?

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Corrects all her suggestions about the menu.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't even listen to them.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He won't even go so far as corrects them.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He just doesn't fucking listen.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's not great.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What would you do if you were Sid?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So Sid comes into the show thinking or saying, Sid goes into the show saying,

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: we've got the opportunity to make somewhere better than those places that

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: we both worked in.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's really, there's no evidence of that at this point.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think if I was writing a show, if I was trying to tell a story, then Sid would

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: stay so that we could continue to explore that relationship and see where it goes and

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: understand what the strong foundation is that keeps her there.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: If you were a regular human in the workplace, I think you'd be out of there,

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: wouldn't you?

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's such a great offer.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not great dynamic with Carmue.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: The beer seems to be at least as bad as any of the shows that we've seen in, not

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: shows, sorry, restaurants we've seen in any of the flashbacks.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas Adam Shapiro, star of the Shapiroverse is offering a place in a

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Shapiro branded restaurant.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Is at the very least better funded and she seems to be more empowered to run.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably, I'm thinking we went to see Deadpool and Wolverine yesterday.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about all the different Adam Shapiros.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd like you to consider a counterpoint for one moment.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Go on.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That in fact there aren't lots of Adam Shapiros.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a single Adam Shapiro, the planeswalker.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That exists in all the universes.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He connects all of these universes.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: He's the fulcrum.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we were rewatching The Mindy Project the other day and he

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: turned up as a random date.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The Mindy Project and the beer are different branches of the Shapiroverse.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe they happen in the same universe.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Could it have been the same Adam Shapiro?

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't a chef and then he's a teacher and never have I ever.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very true.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have to get him on to ask him.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: In this plane of existence.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening Adam Shapiro, if you're...

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He's our one listener.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: If your TARDIS briefly stops in the Prime Material Universe.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yes, I've got some random notes, but I've got one other big

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: point, which is the gang's back together in the sandwich window.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was fun wasn't it?

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent needle drop of...

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a song by The Refused we think?

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh sorry.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Where were we?

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're in the sandwich window.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: How could you not recognize that song?

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you're right.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: What is it?

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's the song?

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Sabotage.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, Peter.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Fight For Your Right To Party.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Such an iconic needle drop that you were like, I don't even know who this is.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The one Beastie Boys song that everyone knows.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: The other Beastie Boys song that everyone knows.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to tell me a bit about Cheechy and Chucky?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we know listeners you've heard us speak about Christopher Zaccaro

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: more than once.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Who plays Cheechy?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You will know that his restaurant in Chicago is inspiration for not the

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: bear, but for the original beef.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And we saw another chef in this episode who we actually saw

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: briefly in Napkins as well.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been around as kind of an ambient...

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And his name is Polly James.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you looked him up to work out who he was.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he runs Uncle Polly's Deli in LA.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's another kind of personality chef sort of of the Matty Matheson,

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, tier.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought they were both great.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And what I loved about this is how happy Eber was.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that was nice.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause you expect it to be like, no, now people have come and

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they're ruining everything, but he loves it.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He's so happy and they support him.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And just some of the stuff they were saying about like, fuck mayonnaise.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to ruin your sandwich, go home and do it yourself.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Eber and Tina have this lovely moment later where she gives him a

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: clipboard and he says he had a great day.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like the old days.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It was the best.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And they call each other grandma and grandpa.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that's really sweet.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just nice, wasn't it?

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just nice.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: He's getting support.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They've recognized the support need.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They've addressed it.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's now a supportive working environment.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Things are back on track.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's good.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really good.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Other observations?

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the needle drop at the end of the episode, which was Carole King up on the

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: roof, as Peter knows from having been in the car with me over the last 16 years.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I love Carole King.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Her album Tapestry is one of my all time greats and up on the roof was just a

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: really nice, nice way to end the episode.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course though, as soon as you see the phones getting locked away, you

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: know that shit's going to go down, especially with what the computer told them

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: about getting rid of the landline.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no way for Sugar to contact anyone who is at the bear, who is in fact

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: her whole support network and as we know, Pete's away for work.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They foreshadowed that hard.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They foreshadowed the heck out of that, which I guess takes

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: us into the next episode.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That was your flawless segue.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew a flawless segue was coming.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: As flawless as your knowledge of the Beastie Boys.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So episode eight, Ice Chips.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Now no messing around here, straight into the action with this one.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Natalie drives a Porsche.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knew?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Fancy.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Pete be earning the money.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, old fashioned bear music to start, which you know means

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: things are fucking stressful.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Call Pete, Carmy, Sid, Marcus, Richie, even Claire, the bear.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: A very stressful moment.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I have seen a couple of reviews point out that once she had pulled

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: over, she could have manually called any of those people.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But aside from Claire, they were all the restaurants.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I agree with you about that.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it wouldn't have got her that far and is she that close to Claire?

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Claire's doctor is maybe the only thing that...

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be a good way to bring her back.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I did wonder if they'd bump into her at the hospital.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause they're really, they're keeping her in the show.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: She's, I mean, she must be getting a credit most episodes.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This was filmed in a real hospital.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Endeavour Health Hospital in Skokie.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is 40 minutes drive and highway traffic from the restaurant

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: depot on Goose Island in Chicago, which is where Natalie's water broke.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So the geography of the show is kind of checking out pretty well.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: IMDB fact.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think our niece was born in Skokie though she was born

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in the greater Chicago area.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: She was born in the greater Chicago area.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That is true.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't believe it was Skokie.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we'll check in with my sister.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise we would have been like, guess what?

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Can we put which hospital my niece was born in the show notes?

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it part of your security for any of your main email accounts?

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing Seeghuis you don't know.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say no.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Nope, no.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't, I don't imagine she has an email account right now.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I dunno.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Kids be starting stuff young these days.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They do.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, Natalie is stuck in the traffic trying to get there.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a classic The Bear super stressy scene, classic The Bear music.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And we all know where it's leading.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I knew where it was leading when I realized that everyone else was

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be uncontactable.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it all makes sense and it means we get to go, Jamie Lee Curtis!

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And what an entrance.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: She's so mental.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: She's so good at just bringing Donna to life.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Just he, he, he, he, I'll be hearing that for a long time.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I did love when she suddenly kind of went, Natalie, don't yell at me.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Natalie starts yelling, chill the goddamn fuck out in the hospital car park.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it was just lovely to kind of throw them in it together right from the word go.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, honestly, I think we're going to spend this half of the episode

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: almost entirely talking about things Jamie Lee Curtis says or does in this

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: episode, because it really is entirely her show, um, from this point onwards.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to jump ahead a bit by, by making a point to underline that a

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: little bit because I think especially on my, on my first watch through, I,

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: well, I saw this and it was perfectly reasonable that this is Sugar's episode

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: about giving birth featuring Jamie Lee Curtis being great.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I think I actually had it slightly back to front cause the

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: episode doesn't end with Sugar and it doesn't end with a baby either.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It ends with, with Donna.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Mothering the facts.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I think, I think it's really, it's really Donna's episode.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think to some extent it's almost Donna's redemption.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a little bit.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's what we were talking about in relation to the first episode

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: about how easy it can be when it's not your parent is mirrored and how

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: the facts are with her, they're happy to be mothered and to be there for her.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You couldn't picture Carmie and Mikey sitting there with her like that.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And actually I wanted to ask you about that.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that maybe the reason I was trying to work out why, why is it

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the facts that turn up at the end?

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think because there may be, I really don't know.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good question.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting choice, isn't it?

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh huh.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and you know, maybe a subsequent episode will have an explanation for us.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but in terms of the production of the show, I, you know, it's

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: surprising that it's surprising that they didn't have almost, almost anybody else.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I mean, I guess, well, let's not say almost anyone else because

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Pete, Bob, he does show up.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He's not, he's not with Donna for a good reason.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, in a way it might even be weirder to have Sid show up because

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the facts are, the facts are family.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Chosen family is a huge part of the burzato thing being part of that.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But it does feel like, um, there should be some explanation for, okay,

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: why we're, we're a car me and where's Richie and why.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe seeing sugar.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Carmy maybe Richie I can't imagine would be in there.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting one, but I think it's, it does make a bit of a statement

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about her capacity to mother.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Those who are looking for it.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think something I, something I liked about this episode was I thought

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: at the same time as Donna is being exhausting and adversarial and passive

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: aggressive at various points, she is giddy.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: She's so happy to be there.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: She's so happy.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and it's really nice seeing this kind of mess of emotions all, all

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: happening simultaneously in a way that feels very authentic.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: How much did you think she hadn't called Pete?

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So much.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So much.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, same.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Same.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, she hasn't called him.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: She hasn't, but she had.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Donna, all is forgiven.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we were, and I did spend a bit of time thinking about this when

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: we were doing our rewatch because, you know, listeners, um, we, we, when

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: we, Lucy and I were watching this through the first time we were both

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: saying, she's not, she's not called him.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no way that she's not called him.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, we're, we're both sort of anxious about this thing.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And we imagined the, the kind of the payoff at the end of this episode was

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be Pete doesn't get called and Pete doesn't come and see the,

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the, the birth of his child.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, there's a whole lot of fallout from that.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, as everybody knows, presumably anyone who's listening to

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: this knows, no, that's not the case.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: She has called him.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He does turn up.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all fine.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it, I think it's deliberate.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, did we think that?

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: 100%.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there, there's a couple of things that I think are set up to

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: take us to that place and my, my theory is it's to take us to some of the way

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to the same kind of emotional place that Sugar is in.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, 100%.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know if you can trust your parent or not.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't know if you can trust your parent.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You're, you're really worried that the person you love isn't going to be

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: there at a time that's important to you.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the ways that the show is doing that is it doesn't

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: show those calls happening on camera.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, it, in fact, it starts with the can't get anyone on the phone.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Then it suggests that those calls must be happening off screen and all of us,

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, at this stage are, are, you know, are more media literate than we

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: realize to all of us.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't see a body.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't see it happen, that's probably because it hasn't or, you

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02]: know, the, you know, the show is trying to hide something from you.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, I think that's one of the ways that the show is

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: setting you up to feel that.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the other way that the show is doing it is that I think it's the

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: first time that we see Sugar asked Donna, have you called P?

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, firstly, have you called P just, just in case anyone's not

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02]: worried about this, there's it spelled out, but we then see Donna

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: really seem to over justify it.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's too much detail.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I called him and he's coming and I told him we were here and yeah.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is super suspicious.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And super manic.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think those things all put together, I think we're what took Lucy

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and I to that place where we were like, oh, he's not being called.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all going to go horribly.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and it, it's got us the viewer effectively paranoid.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Very much.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I think is great because that's, I think where the show has

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: also determined that Sugar probably is at that point in time, um, feeling

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: like we can't quite trust Donna, which is, she's a very easy person

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to not trust.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Very much.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, um, it's hard.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, um, yeah, the stuff she says to her mom in this episode that her

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: mom actually takes on board about having felt scared growing up.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's a hard thing to admit and it's a hard thing to say as

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: a parent, uh, to hear as a parent, I would imagine.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it surprised me that Donna took that as well as she did, um, in

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: moment.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And it, yeah, I really, I felt that was very well done.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought they were, I thought they were quite deft about that.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was extremely effective, um, getting us, and you know,

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: it's probably so obvious.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't need said, but I think so much of that comes down to

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02]: how well Jamie Lee Curtis is just selling the whole character of

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Donna to us in this sequence.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I think a point I wanted to talk about, and this

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: something that you alluded to already was Donna telling the stories of

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the births of each of her three children.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They're your war stories.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's right.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't see that to demean them.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is, it's, it's a battle.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The, the birthing bed, I think, I think it was a medieval

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: academic or something spoke about them as a battleground for women.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I think that's, that's pretty accurate.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think that's a good point.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's obviously the writers taking the opportunity to tell us

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: about, I think it was maybe Game of Thrones.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it was a medieval academic.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Game of Thrones.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, sorry.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Nevermind.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Go on.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's ask our favorite podcast, Dragon Cat.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Way smarter than we are.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's, that's because they're there.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They're a podcast to cut rock stars.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's true.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a little pub band.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so you were saying the recounting of the birth stories?

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the recounting of the birth stories.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's obviously the show taking an opportunity in a very, very direct

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: way to let Donna tell us how she feels about her children.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe, maybe even tell us a little bit factually about them as well.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and Karmie was a little bitch.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And Karmie was a little bitch.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, looking at Mikey first, you know, they're not, they're

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: not messing around here too much.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Mikey doesn't want to come out.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and you know, you know, once he's been born, um, Mikey is, is this guy

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that almost has a death by it.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's tied to the family.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that, you know, when his dad leaves, he takes everything on.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you know, and he, he's got this, he's got this self-destructive streak.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so, you know, that, that, that's all pretty,

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: pretty loud and clear there.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, in terms of sort of taking us to our roles in a dysfunctional

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: family that we were talking about before.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You, I think is, is Mikey a mascot?

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I want to see a scapegoat, but I don't think he is a scapegoat

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think the, I don't think the fam, you know, the family

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: don't treat him as a scapegoat.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Scapegoat.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: They, you know, they, they kind of idolize him.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But he's a scapegoat for his dad's abandonment.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's true.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think it's loud and clear with Mikey,

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: um, where we're going with that.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Carmy's maybe a bit trickier.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, I think you're right.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It is a little bit.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: She takes forever.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He keeps getting stuck.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's chaos in the hospital.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: His dad was there.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01]: She wishes he wasn't.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He was all twisted up.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a really difficult birth.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And it, and it, and isn't that interesting because I think as an,

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: as an adult, I think Carmy's probably perceived as the most successful.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the quietest.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the quietest.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but he was born into chaos.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's obsessed as we learned about when we were talking about

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: legacies and you highlighted this point, he's obsessed with trying to

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: get rid of the, this chaos.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so we get that, but I think the really nice one and part of the reason

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, there's a little bit of a redemption episode here for,

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: for Donna is Donna's story about sugar is just really nice.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was weeping.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It was so nice.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really tender and loving.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you, if you'd only, if you'd only watched fishes, I don't,

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that you'd necessarily seen that side of their relationship

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because she's so, she's so hard on you.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02]: In that episode and, and she, it really feels like she's seen as the,

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the least of the two in that episode, which is not, which is not what

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: comes across there in that story.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: The article that I spoke about earlier by Erin Qualey talks about,

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: sugar is an enabler and how, and that is not to say at any point that sugar

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is to blame for being mistreated and neglected as a child, because

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not the case.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think sugar talks about it herself.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, she says she feels like everyone's mad at her all the time.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: She asked people if they were all right way too much.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: She feels sick when someone else feels sick.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She's scared Pete's going to leave her.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's irrational, but it's exhausting.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She always puts her mum first and made myself sick to make you feel better.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're maybe alluding to a bit of an eating disorder there.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the way that it's delivered and she talks about her daughter.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't want her to feel the way I felt, you know, I just want her

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to be okay and it's such a contrast in a way to the story about her delivery

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and how much her mum does love her.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But sugar, I think does, there's this moment at the start, even where

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: her mum is like saying, you know, I wish you could crack my back.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a moment where I'm like, Oh my God, sugar's actually

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: going to do that for her mum in this moment, but don't want to say,

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, no, you're, you're having a baby.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Which I think is a good parenting moment.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: She gets that.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: She gets that right.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't she?

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But sugar, you know, the reason that Donna loses it at her in the episode

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: fishes is because sugar keeps asking her if she's okay.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Which sugar acknowledges.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And she does acknowledge that.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So in a way they're kind of meeting each other in the

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: middle a little bit here.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: No matter how many times sugar asked it, she didn't deserve the

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: way she was treated in fishes, but it's recognising the patterns that we get

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: stuck in, I think is important.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think that's, I think that's a really good point.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we do, we do get a little bit of Donna's kind of

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: tenderness towards her daughter in at the end of season two, when we,

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: when we briefly see Donna not allow herself to go to the opening of the bear.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that moment where they talk about Mikey's birth and they're both

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about him in that moment of the, the grief of the person still

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: hanging in the room.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That's hard.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very well done, but it is hard.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Donna, although she's like angry about some of the aspects of,

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: of motherhood and delivering her children, she does talk about the power

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of like feeling really good in between contractions, holding onto parking

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: meters, feeling strong.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And that story she tells about the dream she had, you know, the

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: deepest, fastest sleep she ever went into.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And she sees this aquarium which cracks and she's so happy that everyone will get

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to see the beautiful fish.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that beautiful fish is sugar and her children and the way she says,

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and then Natalie, you know, and they look at each other and it's baby.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I love you by the Ronettes, which is such a nice song.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just such a beautiful moment where they just look at each other

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: with so much love.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You're almost sad that Pete gets there, but you are also relieved.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We were relieved.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the question that she puts to Sugar is that she understands,

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you didn't tell me about the baby and I think I understand.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do I understand?

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sugar distracts her with asking about the other stories of the birth.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But then they come back to it.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think I wasn't saying that you didn't want me around?

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sugar says, I didn't want the stuff that you bring with you.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when she talks about them being scared as kids.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was the bit where I thought this could go horribly wrong, but

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: instead it's, it's kind of met with understanding and sympathy and a very

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: maternal thing.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can see that she's trying.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: She's got her hand on Sugar's forehead and yeah, but there's still moments of

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: madness, like rubbing her back and saying, you have your dad's ass.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I thought that was great.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually think that she was being really good there.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was a real-

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Distract you?

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it distracted her.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I broke the tension because that was a point where I think we're

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: being shown the contractions are quite bad.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very painful.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's of course this, there's been this recurring thing through this

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: season about pain and injury, both emotional and physical.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And Donna talks about the myth that boys are easier and Sugar asks if

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: boys are easier and Donna says, I don't think any of it's easier.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It all hurts just the same.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I think that ties in with the conversation we hear.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Carmée and Claire are having an earlier episode about things that

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: are so painful, they don't hurt yet or the kind of pain that we carry

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: with us.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was very strong.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think that's a good point.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have anything else about that episode?

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You learned a lot about-

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Ice chips.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Ice chips.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would have learned about childbirth, but somehow we didn't

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_02]: do the women's health segment.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been pushing for it.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the world will survive without us fumbling our way through that one.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll take a break.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: There's more to come.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Stay with us.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're back and in terms of the news this week, not a great deal of

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: news, but a couple of neat little tidbits.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Hollywood reporter reporters that Fox has 93 Emmy nominations this year.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Second only to Netflix and that's attributed to the successes of

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The Bear and Shogun.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we need to watch Shogun.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I really want to watch Shogun.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's on our list after we finally finished The Bear like two months

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: after everyone else, but we'll get there.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll get there.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Way after the zeitgeist.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Here we are.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: For those of you like me who quite enjoy what's coming out of the hair and

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: costume departments and all that kind of thing, just as a neat little way to

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_02]: read the show in a different way.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Backstage has an interview with the head of the hair department, which

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: focuses mostly on fishes, talks a lot about the use of wigs and things

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: like that to give that episode a sense of place.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I will do is I will pop a link to that into the show notes in

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: case any of you are interested in.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's our news.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: However, outside of professional reporting, we do have some

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: listener responses as well.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we do.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Always my favourite bit of the show this.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to go first this week?

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to go first this week and first this week we have Maria Lawson.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey Maria.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Maria says this.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Ice Chips was probably my favourite episode of the season.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Jamie Lee Curtis was masterful in her performance.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: For a bit though, I was scared she hadn't called Sugar's husband at all.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Weren't we all?

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm glad that's not the direction they took with it.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You really felt the intensity and intimacy of the hospital room with the

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_02]: way each shot was framed super close up on their faces.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I've already binged all the way through this season, but I'm going to

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: circle back and listen to your coverage of this fantastic show.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thanks Maria.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That means a lot to us.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We're very much looking forward to being finished, not with the podcast, but I

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_01]: just really want to know what happens at the end of the show.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Jason and Peter will attest that this is very uncharacteristic for

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01]: me to not have been spoiled, not have watched ahead.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know how you're doing it.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know how I'm doing it.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there must be some outlier.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, are you in a fight club or something like that?

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you releasing the stress?

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't talk about it.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Our friend Jodie Morrell says episode eight Ice Chips was difficult for me

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to watch for personal reasons, but it reminded me no matter how old you get

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or how much life experience you have, sometimes you just kind of need your mum.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm 46 years old and last year I had to go into hospital for a DNC.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I was being stoic about my loss, but was devastated and just kind of needed

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: my mum.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_01]: She was here in two hours and she lives two and a half hours away from me.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh Jodie, I'm so sorry to hear that.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: That must've been incredibly hard.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I'm really happy that your mum was able to be there.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good one.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Two hours.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That must've been a heck of a drive.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you're right.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we do in life just need our mums, even if they are crackers.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like our mums.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like our mums.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably not like yours.

[00:55:13] You should cut that.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, next up we have Sam Lowe and Sam says the following.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_02]: The conversations in the al-anon meetings are so interesting to watch.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It brings up the question of can the person in recovery ever really make amends

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_02]: with those they've hurt?

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that, you know, that's a really good point Sam that we completely skipped

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: over.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, is that really interesting kind of meditation on what can you do with an

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: apology?

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That they slip in just at the start of that, um, of that episode legacy.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, we, we just completely ignored that.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We did.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We're bad people.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We were so distracted by, um, I don't even know the Beastie Boys.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Mayonnaise.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If that even is their real name.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows?

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's very interesting.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So Sam goes on to say, not really.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, can the person in recovery ever really make amends with those they've

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: hurt?

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Not really.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm reminded of the shattered teacup analogy.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: A teacup falls and shatters.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We can glue it back together and it's usable, but it is not the same.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: The apology and the amends is the glue and the effort to move forward

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: with what we have now.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It strikes at the core of the show's trauma.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Mikey didn't stick around long enough to make amends.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone who loved him is left with the broken pieces that cut them as

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_02]: they try to move forward with questions that will never be, will be never

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: answered and a reality that they were not prepared for.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to be angry with the dead, especially when they were in so much

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_02]: pain, but that leaves Carmie and the Bear Crew with loads of pain

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and nowhere to put it.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of trauma, Chips was a bit of a rough watch for me.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I adore Jamie Lee Curtis and she's so brilliant as Donna that it

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_02]: hurts my feelings when I watch.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I would venture a guess that her character has borderline personality

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: disorder with traits of narcissistic personality disorder.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of those traits can overlap.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_02]: What I found intriguing was that she really wasn't as unstable and

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: volatile as she was in fishes.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it sobriety?

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Dialectical behavioral therapy?

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Both?

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Neither?

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: She definitely is trying to get better and we see it alongside sugar.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The working therapy on BPD is that it doesn't actually exist or exists

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to a far lesser extent than we thought.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, I should have said the working theory, not the working therapy.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's thought today to actually be a manifestation of complex trauma,

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: multiple episodes of trauma, usually starting in childhood and that a

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_02]: complex trauma diagnosis is more accurate.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me wonder what kind of life the Burzato matriarch had before

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_02]: becoming a wife and mother.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Also the facts comforting Donna was a great touch.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_02]: The facts are my MVP for season three.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh Sam, we were so close on full alignment there.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're right.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I need to be kinder to the facts.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they're keeping this season from being a downer.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Without them it would be pretty heavy, huh?

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Sam goes on to say, I hope you're enjoying a wonderful holiday and

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: eating delicious meals.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We were.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We were.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for the podcast.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It is truly a highlight of my week.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well thank you, Mrs.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's so nice.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We actually have a voicemail as well.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Voicemail?

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I got a direct voicemail.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've not listened to it yet.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's from my friend and yours, Jenny from Saskatoon.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_02]: How exciting.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it broadcastable?

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We will find out.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to press play.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't let us down, Jenny.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Lucy and Peter.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Jenny from Saskatoon here.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I just thought I would call and give some thoughts because I

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_00]: finally caught up to you.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I actually can speak to an episode that you are reviewing.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I have been watching The Bear very fast.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've watched all three seasons at once and I got to say it's

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_00]: intense to watch all at the same time.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do have some general thoughts which I want to get to

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_00]: share with you about it.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, as I mentioned to you previously in a message, Lucy, I

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: really think that Carmi would have a flip phone or possibly an older

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_00]: model iPhone.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I once saw him in season one or two with a brand new iPhone and I

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_00]: was disappointed in him because I felt that that man would not have

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_00]: a new phone.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I also think they have far too many employees in this restaurant.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I counted 14 people working there plus the servers.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So does that mean there are 14 people on a payroll?

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Do they get salaries?

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Is anyone making any money?

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_00]: How can they afford anything at all?

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's no wonder dinners cost so much money.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's insane.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know we need a Marcus, but do we really need a Neil and a Ted?

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of the facts, I am so irritated by these people.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I actively hate them.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Not them personally, but the amount of storyline they're getting.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if it's because Maddie Matheson is one of the

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: producers, but these guys are in the show way too much.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they also needed to bring in John Cena to be a fact,

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: except that I suppose his agent really pushed for him to be on the show.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, it's interesting because Sydney is talking to that other chef man

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: about going to work for him.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she's like, yeah, I understand it.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like she's sidelined in the restaurant.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Carmi doesn't pay attention to her, doesn't take her suggestions.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: She has thoughtful ideas and he's overriding them.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I also wonder if the actress is like, you know what?

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not getting any screen time.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: No one's paying attention to me.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Where's my story gone?

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I do feel quite bad for her.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I say more Sydney, less facts.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, I think I never want to eat any of the food they're making.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think nobody wants this food.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's eating this food?

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it doesn't look good to me.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I would do the beef window, I guess.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And one final thing I want to say is I bet lots of people

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: are going to be wondering where Natalie's friends were.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So she goes into labor and she has no friends to call.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: She's calling all the people at the restaurant.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And she finally has to call her mom because she has no friends.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually think it's fine that she has no friends

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: because she makes a speech to her mother and she's like, I feel ugly.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anyone likes me.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like she might not actually have friends

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: or feel like she can rely on anybody.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So there may be nobody that she can call.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: However, Pete would have friends.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where Pete's friends are.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like before Pete went on vacation, he would have been like,

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, if something happens and you know that everyone in the restaurant

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: locks up their phones at night because that was a rule they they came up with recently.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like Pete would have made a plan to call like his friend anyway.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I have no quibbles with Natalie having no friends,

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but I do wonder where Pete's friends were.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, that's it. Goodbye.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a PS also.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: PS, I know that Pete wasn't on vacation.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I know he was away for work.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I would really like us like a like an episode

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: devoted to the inner lives of the dishwashers.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Because those two guys are working very, very hard.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to know their story. OK, bye.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we love you, Jenny. That was amazing.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We've said that in I think off Mike that we would love

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a one off episode of the the dishwashers.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it could because they were barely there in season two

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because the restaurant wasn't functioning for most of it.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was so happy when they came back.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that, you know, hot take from Jenny there.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Easy to believe that Sugar has no friends, but

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure Pete has friends.

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Pete has.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, can you imagine what Pete's friends would be like?

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Be like, oh, well, you can phone Kevin from accounts or whatever.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kevin would come and be just like Pete to and you'd be like, really?

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think Jenny has a really good point because it is something that I

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: has stuck out to me in.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I think virtually every TV show that I've ever watched is

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: people exist in these worlds where the only people they know are from work.

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. Like at the funeral.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. The front row of Marcus's mom's funeral people she literally never met.

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And just imagining any any point in my

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in real life, you know, being, oh, look, it's everybody from work

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: at this important life event.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. We

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: we love Jenny.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: She's from Saskatoon where we used to live.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I was fortunate enough to do some improv with Jenny.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: She taught me some improv while I was there.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Extremely funny person.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Extremely funny person.

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And on that note, she and Randy

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and Randy's friend whose name I've forgotten, but I know is angry Adam,

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: because that's his character on the podcast, have recently wrapped up

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the first season of an amazing zombie improv podcast called Welcome

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to the Apocalypse briefly featuring myself and Jason. Yes.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But genuinely really, really great stuff.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested at all, I recommend you check it out.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Having done now edited four or five podcasts,

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I am in awe of how good Randy makes that podcast sound.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He does all sorts of sound effects and it's just incredible.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think despite being somehow being on the same podcast network as us,

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a really professional sounding show.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's incredible.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really good.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Thinking about legacy, I'm not sure.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure what we took from them.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe maybe not planning in advance, I think.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: From Welcome to the Apocalypse.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we took our our yes and approach.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we we've been we've been yes and things, but I think we didn't

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: inherit any skill in editing or pulling together a quiz of story, which they

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: something they can do.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically what we're seeing is go listen to them.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop listening to this.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop listening to this. Hang up now.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you everyone for sending in feedback.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so nice to hear from you all.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that it was it was four women who wrote in for this week.

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That's very interesting.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. That is our show.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to write in or leave us a message,

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you can find all our contact information at podcast.com.

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: While you're there, be sure to check out our other shows like

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the Run for Your Lives podcast with Pake and Daphne,

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Cobra Catch with Rich, Rima and Jason or

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: my favorite show, Dragoncast with Wendy, Reni and Veronica,

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: who have just covered the final episode of season two of House of the Dragon.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Did the dragon ever get its house?

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but it's putting an offer in a couple of places.

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: There's one that's a fixer up or it's really excited about it.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent. Can't wait, can't wait.

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Our next episode, which as we see will probably be a little over a week away,

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: will be The Bear season three, episode nine, Apologies

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and season three, episode ten forever.

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited. Any predictions going in?

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if forever is a really short episode,

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be very disappointed.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That is our show. Thanks for listening.

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Let it rip, Maria Lawson.