2: "Hell" (Squid Game S1E2)

[00:00:00] 1. Hell Squid Game Take your turn Please take your turn 1. Hell Squid Game, Pack 1. Hell Squid Game You're not going to get out of here You're going to get out of here You're going to get out of here No, you're going to get out of here

[00:00:26] And you're going to get out of here

[00:01:01] Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason and I'm David and I'm Karen. Yeah and this episode we're covering Squid Game Season 1 episode 2. Hell. Welcome to Hell. Kevin Warden here. That's just kind of already here.

[00:01:20] I've so glad you wanted to do this. I was actually a little surprised. A little surprise that you liked Squid Game so much given how brutal it can be but happily surprised and I'm just curious if you could say a little bit about why you like it. Fascinating

[00:01:34] that you thought that me, your partner in the walking dead cast for so many years. Yeah. Thought that this would put me off somehow. Like okay zombies eating people

[00:01:46] because not you would always say oh I just think of them as oh goofy and then we went to see the evil dead movie because you love evil dead like who isn't and then the evil 2013 remake

[00:01:59] had like all the horrible glory parts with none of the charm and you're like I hated that. So yeah, no you're right. You're absolutely right. I think you're on to something. I think the difference here is that Squid Game is so well done. Yes.

[00:02:22] None of the violence feels un-earned. None of the violence feels gratuitous. All of the violence feels in name of the story. Yeah because like that word gratuitous I said that too to somebody recently like the violence and screen game doesn't feel gratuitous and I'm like

[00:02:39] unless when you do something just because it's darkly funny that that counts as gratuity because sometimes I think they're doing something really fucked up because and they're chuckling about it. You know what I mean? It's not just about the message all the time.

[00:02:58] It's also about look up fucked up. I don't know what you're all on. Yeah, yeah and actually it's funny that you mentioned that and we'll get to it when we talk about the fucked up moment of

[00:03:08] the week because there is a good fucked up moment of the week in this. Yes and there's a couple but so I'm sorry. So you just the quality of it and that's basically it right. Because it was such

[00:03:20] high quality and I could always view it as a metaphor for the capitalist society that we're in. So because I sort of viewed it as sort of a metaphor and I kept in mind always what I'm watching

[00:03:37] is these are actors. Nobody's actually dying. I like horror. I like horror as a genre. Yeah. Okay, that's cool. Yeah and it's hard to name exactly the difference in the walking dead because

[00:03:56] you could make all the same arguments in the walking dead. I suppose. I think the thing that got me off of the walking dead finally was that I was a little frustrated with it and a little tired,

[00:04:12] a little burned out of the whole cycle, you know, and we'll show you. Rinse and repeat it at all. Yeah but this is a pretty, you know, this is what 10 episodes total so I wasn't. Yeah, I didn't get

[00:04:26] sick of it at all. I thoroughly enjoyed it even when you know red light green light. Well I was gonna say like two other violent shows you really like to work game of thrones

[00:04:39] and breaking bad. But there was points you jumped off of both of them and then came back, but I think this show wasn't long enough for that. Was only now. Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:04:50] Yeah. When you have a disturbing moment like this before you have a chance to really get attached to any of the people who die then you're not gonna it's not like in game of thrones I know you

[00:05:00] felt like leaving because characters you came to love died but you didn't have time for that here. Yeah. Yeah and and yeah, Game of Thrones had some fucked up moments to be. When we ever,

[00:05:13] when we I mean I came on I podcasted with you briefly as a guest for Game of Thrones. The two of you did some Game of Thrones podcasting. Did you ever do fucked up moment of the week for Game of

[00:05:25] Thrones? We could have but we started, I started that with Breaking Bad and then because that always had one and then Yellowjackets has one every time too. Yellowjackets is just a little bit.

[00:05:42] It really does. There's only certain shows it works it works with. You could do with handmaid's tail but it kind of doesn't feel appropriate. Right. Yeah, exactly. Game of Thrones had the most

[00:05:57] fucked up moment of any show which is the red one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's more fucked up than anything else that ever happened in any show. I don't know man what about when when Stanis Burt

[00:06:11] has daughter alive. Yeah, I think I jumped off after that. But this show I mean one reason why I ask and why I think it is worth having this conversation is because I know I mean the person I'm

[00:06:27] thinking of is Rima who watched the first episode of this. It was like that's enough and I'm like but you like dark things and she's like nope, this went too far for me and I'm like but it's smart

[00:06:38] and she's like so for some people and I understand. I mean it's very watching it again after two years. I was like oh I should have worn people. I forgot especially with all the mass shootings how

[00:06:50] disturbing this field. So you know I forgot how to really felt. I mean I hope I'm still friends with everyone. There is a lot of gun death in this show. You have to do it if you're not able to separate

[00:07:06] from an inspection, it would be and it is very disturbing even as fiction. It really is yeah. I mean that's part of what makes this show the show is just how in your face it is and how

[00:07:20] stark it is. Anyway, all right that's great. I before we get into the episode for this week I wanted to let listeners know we're also going to be talking a little bit about the new reality show

[00:07:32] squid game the challenge that came out recently later on in the podcast but then tomorrow Daphne and I are going to actually record a more in-depth podcast about that so it's a bit of air

[00:07:42] so far and just talk about you know our thoughts on all the different challenges and everything. So that said this week is Squid Game season one episode to Hell. We had a request to read the

[00:07:54] summary for people who are listening to the podcast but not rewatching. So I'm going to do that. I do recommend though going back and watching if you can find the time because much like I

[00:08:03] didn't remember just how disturbing that ending was. I also didn't remember how terrific the show is. I knew I liked it but it's to actually go back and have that confirmed and just experience it all

[00:08:13] over again is great. So anyway here goes the summary with over half the players killed in the first game many survivors demand to be released using the games third clause they narrowly vote to cancel the game and send

[00:08:26] everyone home but without any prize money back in Seoul, Gihun goes to the police but no one believes them except detective Huang Junho whose brother received the same invitation card and has recently disappeared. The players are invited to re enter the game and many return out of desperation.

[00:08:43] This includes Gihun whose mother needs surgery sang Wu who's about to be arrested for financial fraud. Player 001 who does not wish to die in the outside world I guess I haven't said his name yet huh.

[00:08:58] Yeah, Ilnam. Oh Ilnam. Yeah. Ilnam. Yeah. Player 067 who wish that say be out who wishes to rescue your parents or North Korea and get her little brother out of an orphanage player 199 a Pakistani

[00:09:12] that's Ali a Pakistani migrant worker who attacked and gravely injured his boss for withholding his wages and player 101 named Jane Ducksu against her on the run from gambling debts and his ex-bosses

[00:09:25] Junho secretly follows Gihun when he's picked up by the guards. So um in general how is it like to watch this one again did you like it David? I liked it a lot. I think this is an excellent

[00:09:39] episode I've heard and seen in reviews it called transitional. It certainly is not as full of action as some of the other episodes but I think that's actually a strength. It it's dramatic emotionally

[00:09:53] without falling back on the excitement and drama of one of the actual games. We do get the backstory of several main characters a couple main characters and a couple who will go on to be main characters

[00:10:06] which range from the quite sympathetic to the very unseparatic zone interest in contrast there and sort of everything in between but I thought it was compelling throughout even though there's not all that much action. Yeah it's everything in between because like a lot of these people

[00:10:28] are the cause of their own misery and also the people in their lives and misery that they're trying to make up for to one degree or another you know they're they're they're it fault like um

[00:10:42] what's this name saying who who you find out like mortgage just mothers shop but uh and Gihun is just a kind of a fucked up fuck up but say B.O.K I would say is the world

[00:10:57] is the most suitable for her whatever and up do all the oh yeah into anything wrong that we know yeah yeah yeah yeah cotton a dead end job with a with a crooked boss who won't pay him yeah yeah technically we've all been there it's just kidding

[00:11:19] it's Karen what about you I agree and I also really like the episode I thought there were some very key moments in this episode we got the voting on whether to stay or to go and that was kind of

[00:11:39] cringy and and great um and then like you know we got some excellent back stories so now we know uh have some more depth for these characters so they got fleshed out a little bit

[00:11:52] and then we got the big decision to return and um so because there were no games in this episode uh they didn't participate in anything in the arena I first I thought ah slow episode because

[00:12:04] you know it's establishing back stories but I watched it again and I realized that it was um really important and I want to talk about why I think this is one of the most important episodes later on

[00:12:18] I'll expand on that later but um I just want to put that out there there's this it's was an important episode for one key reason yeah I mean the most darkest thing about the

[00:12:26] sub-sodd that stands out is there's no game in it and and it was surprising to me to get an episode mostly in the outside world so early on but there were a lot of twists in this episode and

[00:12:39] excitement and intrigue and um character depth that was entertaining humor as usual if you're sense of humor as messed up like mine and then and I liked a lot and I am glad to be back

[00:12:54] in the game world after this but to have one episode like this was great you make one really good point there which is if you take the story arc of the traditional like TV drama in the sort of

[00:13:09] this modern paradigm of an ongoing story that leaving the game world and going back to the real world in most shows would take place much later you know like in lost all of a sudden they're back

[00:13:22] in L.F. but that's like season four or five and I guess the real fascinating thing about it is you would think they wouldn't do it because it when they voted to go out it lessened the tension

[00:13:35] it was a bit of a relief right and that but the whole point of this episode is no because the real world is hell that's why it's entitled hell it's not a relief it's worse it's better

[00:13:46] than go back there yeah and and that's really really important that's why this episode was really important because if they didn't have the vote or if the vote went the other way and they were trapped there it would have put a completely different take on this entire series

[00:14:04] got to be them choosing it it's gotta be them choosing it after they know what the stakes are so now that they know uh with the stakes are it's so much more devastating and heartbreaking

[00:14:17] that they go yeah exactly and at the beginning you could even say that in episode one the players and uh Greenlight Redlight were kind of tricked they really didn't know what the stakes were

[00:14:30] they said they were going to be eliminated from the game but it they didn't realize it was like actually be eliminated from a plane of existence from the game of life yeah it's always more interesting to me when characters in something choose to do something yes questionable or

[00:14:50] whatever of their own free will rather than being forced to do it and just trying to escape whatever their force to do that's just good versus evil and it's boring but it's more complicated

[00:15:01] when you're like oh why would somebody do something that messed up that's kind of where I like yellow jackets because like how did they get to the cannibal cults like why it's spoiler alert

[00:15:12] that's a good for them so but yeah all right let's do fucked up one over the week David uh to me the obvious choice was the hand in the machine that just leaped out at me when uh

[00:15:26] when you said the phrase fascinating because that was not my choice for the for the uh fucked up moment of the week for me the obvious choice for the fucked up moment of the week was the cold open

[00:15:38] when the minions are putting the gift wrapped coffins uh with the bow big red bow into the incinerators where they're going to be cremated and one of the coffins opens and a finger comes out

[00:15:51] and somebody whimper's inside clearly alive and the minion was like hmm that's not supposed to happen. Shubs the fingers back in takes a nail gun nails it back together and then shoves it into the incinerator totally with the person still alive totally fucked up yeah that was the

[00:16:12] fucked up I'll give you that yeah it wasn't as graphic but it's pretty fucked up. Yeah Aaron was mine and David you had my runner up and and even I don't know if I'm right about this

[00:16:24] with the feel of that scene to me was like like I was like oh yeah what's the procedure for this oh shove hand back in nail closed okay so that happens every once in a while. You didn't even get any thought

[00:16:37] no no oops okay there we go again yep I know what to do here all right let's get into our points which one of you guys wants to go first? I'm a Karen yes yeah and by the way another fucked up

[00:16:52] point of the week could also be the ending where everyone chooses to go back. That's good point kind of fucked up. Yeah I think it would feel that that's better than just staying in their lives.

[00:17:08] That's right that's right. I think by that time. We know where this thing is going by that time. Yeah we hope anyway yeah I mean otherwise it's a short series. They have a very very very

[00:17:24] slim chance of winning the game just like playing the lottery. I mean the thing is when they started this there was mentioned that the prize money would be split among whoever win is

[00:17:41] there at the end so I would argue they don't know how slim a chance they have and we're not spoiling anything so I don't really want to talk too much in detail about that but you know as far as they

[00:17:54] know maybe the rest of them there could make it. Yeah I think what's counterpoint to that is that they don't know the stakes entering the first game but they do now. Now they know what's at

[00:18:06] the stake both in the vote and the choice to go back and I think a subpoint to that is they don't realize going through the first game that this is going to pit all of them against each other

[00:18:21] so and that to your point Karen about this being the fucked up moment of the week they are the second time they go consciously choosing to compete. In a life and death competition with others in other words I know I'm going to be contributing

[00:18:41] to the deaths of others not just risking my own life. Right right yeah contributing well I don't know I mean redlight green light I would say if you just you don't necessarily need to hold anyone

[00:18:59] back to win yourself in that game. I think it's made explicit though like the one one of the competitors who is arguing to the others to vote continue basically says why should we

[00:19:13] give all this money to the dead people that doesn't make any sense and I think it's implied there that they do understand this is competition against each other. All right I just think it's a

[00:19:28] big mystery you know I think you could probably guess that something could come up but I mean one thing I forgot to say actually last episode because I'd forgotten what it was like to watch this

[00:19:41] for the first time I think I did get spoiled on the ending but I didn't know it yeah I didn't see it but especially if you hadn't been spoiled you'd just be thinking that whole time wow this

[00:19:53] like their deciding whether or not to participate in something that seems very mysterious and possibly sketchy and I wonder I mean just the way that the mood of the episode is it's like this

[00:20:07] seems bad what could it be I wonder and then when you get to the revelation of what it is it's like wow I think this is worse than anyone probably thought you know or just as bad as you thought it could

[00:20:21] be and that was why it was so shocking at the end like whoop yep that was as bad as it possibly could be we didn't know until now but yep so you just don't know it's gonna be what's coming next

[00:20:36] unless you've seen the whole thing like we have you don't but you know that it's fucked up and you know that it's gonna be games and such hits yeah and what I'm saying about the money for the dead

[00:20:46] people is it is made explicit that they understand that the more of their co-icers are dead the more money they are going to make yes even if it's more than one of them that are left they benefit every time

[00:21:00] somebody dies and it felt perverse in this when they show the counter come down from 4.56 to 201 and it's like all that all represents dead people and then they show the money coming down

[00:21:14] into the pig and like that represents dead people too but also at the same time more for us right we're just pretty much exactly what you're saying but yeah it's it's this perverse feeling of

[00:21:24] dead people equals good feeling no I don't like that do you think the money was just eroded to the dead people no okay I guess that's that's thinking ahead and I shouldn't

[00:21:38] be jumping well I think they had see yeah he said if if the majority of you decide to come back then we can continue the games and so I think if that might take is if that happened that

[00:21:55] meant all the money was still in play was still in play okay even though they had voted out to leave voted to leave but I don't know yeah yeah let's talk about the vote itself it was a crazy sequence

[00:22:09] it was fun to see who voted for what and you could see people's votes you know exactly how they were voting because they did it one at a time slowly and it went sort of back and forth 5050

[00:22:23] almost the entire time and it was just slowly building tension and I love that the smarty college grad G. Hunts childhood friend sang Wu I love that he was the one who pointed out well wait a second

[00:22:43] there is a third clause in the contract that we signed that says that if 50% of the people want vote to leave we can leave at any time I love that and and that he voted to stay

[00:22:56] yeah what is that why he he was one of the stays one of the remains did he have some change of heart in between there or did he just want it to be democratic or what um I haven't just a theory on

[00:23:08] this which is I think he almost spoke up and it is possible that he changed his mind because you can see that some of them do when they say before we have the vote we're going to show you how

[00:23:20] much money it is yeah so that may have contributed to his changing his mind it definitely contributed to some others changing their minds but I kind of got the feeling it's what you said Karen like at

[00:23:32] the beginning like I was sort of putting one over on them by citing only the first two clauses of the contract and and I think he just wanted to be like the the smart guy pushing back

[00:23:47] and being like hey wait a minute you know a smart guy there's this other clause even though he doesn't end up wanting to do that himself right he spoke up last time too when they first got

[00:24:01] kidnapped there he was I forget what he said but he was and I don't know like he also was generous towards Ali in this episode um paying for his bus fare so you get the feeling there's a

[00:24:16] streak of like social consciousness there or something he saved G. G. Hun in redlight green light oh was that him yeah yeah sangoo yeah yeah that oh okay yeah that was him he he he's like

[00:24:31] he was trying to get out except he goes to everyone to stay then yeah he's a fascinating contrast I want to talk about yeah a little bit later because he has some conflicting things but

[00:24:45] I agree with you it was very interesting then he was the one who spoke up and then he voted opposite since we're talking about the vote do you mind if I talk a little bit about that do it

[00:24:54] I thought it was captivating first off just seeing the aftermath of the redlight green light and that there's only half less than half of them left and this woman comes forward uh I don't

[00:25:08] know how to say her name but she's number two twelve and she's begging believe but I have a child and then everyone starts begging and promising to pay and I it was interesting they presume

[00:25:20] these people have something to do with their debt but not really it's only the squid game people they're just using that to outpower over them that's it they don't care yeah this is their glad

[00:25:33] that there's people desperate enough to want to do this to participate and then they start getting a little more chaotic and then one of the red cloaked guys fires is gun and that's

[00:25:46] the triangle face guys so this is the first time we've seen triangle face ones and they have guns so I think the square faced ones are managers the circles are just workers and the triangles are

[00:25:59] security that seems right yeah it's the first time that we saw the security yeah yeah had their guns that were lined up yeah so then yeah saying we in folks there right to vote and I thought

[00:26:12] the whole vote was was captivating even this part is childlike which is really interesting how they're lined up like kids that they have a two button big round lit up buttons with the red

[00:26:24] X and a green zero you know those are evocative of tiktok toe and when you press the buttons they make distinct sounds and it reminded me of the Simon game you know with the color and um love

[00:26:37] that yeah yeah I just the like the game I probably were said it now that I was back then and and G-Hun is the because they go from last to first so since he's G-Hun is four five six

[00:26:52] he goes first and and I'm like I think I was thinking when I saw the first time like yeah you don't want any part of this so and he was sort of struggling a little bit I think I was like no don't

[00:27:04] don't do it and then he votes to leave and I'm like good sanity but then the next player votes to stay and I was like okay it's a vote now like it's not a foregone conclusion suddenly that they're

[00:27:16] all gonna want to leave and so then the whole thing was a striking visual of all of them on one side of this line and slowly coming over and you see them voting one of the other and it was a close

[00:27:26] game close vote which close games are always the most exciting so that was made it great to they just really know how to milk the scene for its tension and then yeah saying we votes to um

[00:27:40] votes to stay and you're like what and then player 2 12 voted to stay because we totally changed up on you after she saw it and she had a whole different demeanor too which is

[00:27:49] interesting and yeah I was all about the money and then the gangster guy voted to go home and I that surprised me a little and my first thought was maybe he's just more comfortable with the

[00:28:00] risk that he has to take every day back at home versus you know place like this but then you learn he plans to bring back a bunch of guys and rob the place so that's why he's right

[00:28:09] he had a plan actually a smart plan yeah I'm like the science he had a plan he had no plan no matter what don't believe what it's like the answer

[00:28:22] so of course it comes down to one last vote and it's the old man in he votes to go home and that's the deciding vote so he pretty much decided it and it was it was great which is shocking

[00:28:37] that he's that he voted that way don't you think um yeah I mean he seems sort of like oh yeah this is kind of cool but I don't know if I found it shocking I found it interesting like okay I guess

[00:28:55] he's not that invested in it he's kind of brain cancer crazy so he's trying to brain cancer but he's also dementia you know so uh huh and so I I thought you know he has nothing to lose

[00:29:09] I thought why not stay and he looked like he was having a good time but he surprisingly votes to leave to go and it seems like just kind of a wild card like you do have what he's going to do next

[00:29:24] yeah yeah right which is why I found it maybe a little surprising but not not too shocking I was more surprised actually that Gihun was so adamant about leaving because he's such a gambling

[00:29:38] addict and but um but he real the whole time he's like hoping the vote goes his way you tell and I guess he doesn't want to die in that that's cool yeah he's still sane at this point

[00:29:53] yeah he hasn't been pushed over his mom yeah mom thing pushes him over the edge and they and the thing that happens with his next wife's family can you imagine being in a situation like

[00:30:05] this where you're just so in debt and you have people in your life who you've messed up and if you just win this money you could help them and so you would vote to stay I don't think

[00:30:20] I ever would only because I have no faith in my game playing in the game yeah I'm just going to say I love competition so I can imagine it yeah yeah you do well David yeah all if I do

[00:30:37] I have odds are overwhelming at end up dead but I think I might I don't know for sure I would hope I'm wrong about this but just the psychological aspects of it might do me in you know

[00:30:51] I think David you'd be more solid at that part of it. I agree. The other thing I loved in this scene because this show does irony like almost no other show and it's social commentary but there's the point at which the players start arguing with each

[00:31:08] other and then you know the security guard fires off a gun and they all they're scared and and then the kind charge says we will no longer condone any acts that impede this democratic process

[00:31:24] as if this was some sort of sacred ritual of democracy instead of this stuff. Fucked up. Karen and I like the three of us would form an alliance and by the end,

[00:31:37] Karen and I would just be like, I'm trying to kill each other and David will be off on the side just watching and waiting for a close-up. So, no there's exactly how we go down.

[00:31:49] And David will have all the money. Not my money. Okay um how about David why don't you go next? Uh okay um why don't we follow up on sanguose. So in this episode he really emerges as a main character

[00:32:11] I think he was more of a supporting character in the first episode and I think he's fascinating for several reasons so he seems to be the most educated and capable player in the games

[00:32:24] um you know sort of just a higher level of education and sophistication than most of the people there. So immediately you wonder what is he doing here? Like how did that guy get involved in this thing?

[00:32:43] And then um because he's done fucked up. Right so we you know we see him changes vote and that's a little bit contradictory but then as you point it out we've also seen his kindness in generosity more than once

[00:33:00] um to Gui Hun and saving him and redlight Greenlight to Abdul Ali lending him his phone he buys him a meal he buys a mubust ticket and me doesn't have to do that. Right but it's almost like

[00:33:15] he's playing a part like he's playing the part of the educated successful guy and this is how you behave. And then we find out about all his problems so um it turns out he's in the hole and um for a lot

[00:33:32] of money Gui Hun says to him well why don't you just earn it back you know if your fancy job and he says 6 billion one that's about 4.6 million dollars US so he has no hope of earning it back

[00:33:47] and it was like 10 times what the squid game people thought he was in the hole for right like that right he says they didn't know everything and um and to go further than that we find out that

[00:33:59] money alone will not help him um he's committed crimes and he's probably going to jail no matter what so he might be able to maybe with money he can save like his mom shop and this and that that's kind

[00:34:12] of unclear which he also put on the line and I think she has any idea about that so he's put her future at stake as well. Yes and she seems to have no idea about not only about that but about

[00:34:23] any of him is behavior she's taken by total surprise. The golden child yeah. Yeah and then and then we get to the scene where he's sitting in the bathtub um and I think what he's in the

[00:34:37] process of doing is committed committing suicide is that how you two interpreted that. Yeah he was he was burning charcoal right so he was what's that in carbon monoxide or whatever okay I mean it

[00:34:49] didn't look good when you were taking a bath in your suit right so yeah suicide yep so what when I came away with is there is the practical with him as there is with a lot of them he has

[00:35:06] money concerns and he has these you know concerns about his mom and his criminal thing that he's involved with but it it seems to be deeper in him than that because here is the guy who among

[00:35:22] all of them was sort of gifted a good life. He smart talented has this prestige of education had a prestigious job so this was not caused by circumstance for him and he seems

[00:35:37] to me to be drawn to gambling competing winning in a way that is not fully explained by the practical and almost fetalistically drawn to wagering his life and I think when he spoke up about having

[00:35:55] the vote that was sort of the same thing like he he's drawn to compete and show his superiority and the whole thing is mixed with this incredible shame of what a fuck up he is so he's in really

[00:36:07] complex sort of multi-layer guy would lot going on there. With him too I think it's they say that money makes you more of who you already are and so he has all of this all these resources which

[00:36:25] then allowed him to screw up on a much bigger scale you know then even geohoon or any of the others so I think that's maybe a part of it too. He tries to explain how he screwed up to geohoon

[00:36:42] and can't even understand he's like he does understand the word features. I don't really understand what features are either honestly. I used to know but then I forgot it's not relevant to my

[00:37:00] real. I was training stocks for a while there and then I understood it for a while but you're like you have some kind of a stake in what something's going to cost or something like that

[00:37:11] yeah where the price is going to go in the geohoon for his commodities but yeah I mean he even says like trading stocks which is kind of above geohoon's head he's like ah that's small potatoes. Like that's how I really got into trouble.

[00:37:29] Yeah I mean you get into leveraging with this kind of a thing with stock options and stuff where you can have just a little bit of money and have 10 times the money at stake somehow which is a bad

[00:37:44] blade. Right well something you can do with futures and you can with stock also is to short it in which the downside risk is unlimited. Like you lose money as the value of it goes up so

[00:37:56] could theoretically go up to infinity. Right that's what you get a lot of people jumping down to skyscraper windows. Or joining joining death games. Yeah that's right exactly. Karen why don't you do one? Okay so let's talk about say-buck say-buck

[00:38:19] and sort of her incredibly sad tragic story we find out that she's from North Korea and she and her younger brother have fled to South Korea. We find out her younger brother is in

[00:38:40] an orphanage and she goes to visit him and kids are picking on him and then and she promises she'll try to figure out a way to get their parents, her parents are stuck and I think her mother

[00:38:58] was arrested in China and she's trying to figure out a way to reunite her entire family and it's just so sad. And then she also goes to the man who kind of acts as the guide to bring them together

[00:39:15] in South Korea and the name I love the name of the agency Southern Man Northern Woman. So Southern men Northern women. Sounds like a dating service. It's so super gross. What do you call like a

[00:39:32] marriage? Yeah, broker. Yeah but I guess they're trained apparently to get maybe they actually did get her out of North Korea. I don't know but within she have to promise to marry someone I

[00:39:45] don't think so I think that's just what they're called but yeah I would say this is a guy in the human trafficking business. Yeah and when he says that oh I'm sorry the broker left with all the money

[00:40:00] it sounds like yeah you're a part of this and you guys are in league which is seemingly what she thinks too because she puts the knife I guess to his throat hot coffee in his face. It's a couple

[00:40:13] of weasels in this one. This guy and Ali's boss. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Anyway go on I'm sorry I didn't mean you. Exactly no that's really it that's as much as we really find out about her in this episode

[00:40:27] that and the funny scene when they were dumped after the vote they're all kind of unceremoniously sort of dumped in their underwear bound and tied up but with her feet and their ankles

[00:40:45] and she happened to be dumped at the same time as Jeanne and you know he's of course mad at her because she's the pick pocket and she's like going that. Exactly he frees her she's like fine and

[00:41:02] she frees his his hands and well no she's like gonna walk away. Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait and she goes no if I let you go you're gonna hassle be about the money and he goes yeah that's right

[00:41:14] yeah I'm just like so funny and then he's like wait wait no no I promise I won't I swear my mother's life so then she let some go and jump give me my buddy right immediately we foreish even the

[00:41:26] undoes his ankle so he's hopping along like a bunny and then that was just super funny. When you get the idea here that the Game Masters do have a dark sense of humor I mean those two

[00:41:36] couldn't have ended up together by coincidence right yeah you're a well it was also funny that because you have the square face guy go well it's it's a pity that we won't be able to spend more

[00:41:48] time with you but if you choose to come back you know you can come back but for now good bye it's sort of genial almost and then you cut to the van got kicked out half naked on a cold night

[00:42:02] it's hilarious and that they throw their their clothing out. Yeah they gave them a father to dress them again they gave them the clothes at least yeah the one thing I would say about her that that foreshadows

[00:42:17] her being an interesting character as this show continues is that she's pretty hard-edged oh she definitely has a sympathetic story where all you see her in a new way and you have some

[00:42:28] sympathy for her but she's not all rainbows and teddy bears. In Epp one she what did she do with that gangster guy she'd like tried to get him killed in the red light green light game

[00:42:41] right members through him down and she did steal Gihun's money I mean it's kind of funny at this point because it's so trivial and comparison to everything else going on but it did happen.

[00:42:51] Yeah and she probably learned that skill from that guy that she tried to kill. Right yeah that's probably true. All right my turn um I'll do a short one and it's pretty much outsourced to chat GPT but uh

[00:43:06] it's the theme of wealth disparity in Korean movies and shows that you mentioned last time David I asked chat DPP Gbt about income inequality in South Korea and it said South Korea is a country that is

[00:43:21] achieved remarkable economic development and social progress in past decades but it also faces challenges of income inequality and poverty among its population according to the Jeannie coefficient GINI a measure of income distribution South Korea had a relatively low level of inequality in 2021 with

[00:43:40] a score of 0.33 on after tax income however this does not capture the whole picture of the wealth gap and the living conditions of the poor according to the OECD I don't know what that is almost half

[00:43:52] of South Korea's elderly people lived in relative poverty in 2011 the highest rate among the 34 OECD countries more over the top 10% of households in South Korea owned about 43% of the total household net worth in 2022 while the bottom 10% owned 0.2%. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 also exacerbated

[00:44:16] the economic inequality in security in South Korea especially for the low income and vulnerable groups therefore South Korea faces a paradox of high life expectancy and good health but also high poverty and social exclusion for many of its citizens which I guess is the bottom line there you

[00:44:33] know it is a big issue and that's why I think that it gets covered so much in movies and shows that we see coming out of there yeah parasite um so good amazing one yeah and by the way that

[00:44:46] statistic you cited 10% of the household zoning 43% of the wealth is a lot better than here I know inequality is a lot worse than that what what is it here in America it's reached

[00:44:59] something like the top 1% owning half of the wealth yeah oh shit sorry you can't see um I'm gobsmacked and we're just not is having open yeah so which is why I think this you know when

[00:45:14] we talk about this last week this is why the this show besides all its entertaining revenue aspects really struck a chord here I mean these themes have been a quality really Americans it's why the show struck a chord and also why this reality show that's based on it

[00:45:32] is probably going to be super popular just the fantasy of going into a situation like this and coming out with $4.56 million people are interested in that too and can I also say that last

[00:45:47] week you spoke about how it's a metaphor for capitalism and how workers are crushed under the weight of capitalism and it also kind of hurts my brain a little when I think about that this show

[00:45:59] which is like such a biting commentary on capitalism and the money hungry world today how it's been such a giant success for Netflix which saw this summer to massive entertainment strikes this year the writers guild and the sag after strikes and that they were able to

[00:46:25] negotiate better contracts because they were able to collectively bargain and they stood against giant corporations like Netflix and my brain is kind of you know it sort of spins around that they would produce a show like this that's a biting commentary on the exact kind of

[00:46:48] business that they are. Yeah it's interesting I mean I always think there's got to be it's almost like you want there to be a good tension between different political parties in

[00:47:01] a political system even if you don't agree with them all it's good to have the the lively debate and not have well I don't want to get into politics but yeah I know. To have a healthy political

[00:47:12] system and same thing with the entertainment system you need people to distribute and to have platforms and everything but to have this collective bargaining that actually works is what keeps it healthy if not for that then it gets lopsided and it just can't be sustained that way.

[00:47:29] Yeah yeah so you got to have it you got to have a Netflix but you got to have the union still in my opinion. Right and this whole last summer was you know sort of hot strike summer or

[00:47:45] it was all about little you know little guys rising up and and you know saying that's it we need we need better wages and kind it's just kind of great. I'm glad that they came to a bargain

[00:47:59] and also that's kind of why we're covering squid game right now because there's a gap of content because of these strikes. Oh are you seeing it already? Yeah there's not anything on right now

[00:48:10] airing that I'm that interested in so we're doing the walking dead rewatch and we're doing we did white lotus you know I was like what shows do I love that have seasons coming up

[00:48:21] because there's a gap so squid game came up so it's related to that. And there is meta everywhere you look in this whole thing I don't mean meta the company but but sort of receding levels of

[00:48:35] meaning that are circular and all of this. The reason that the writers and the actors went on strike this summer yes wages are a part of it but really what the fight is over is not allowing

[00:48:52] companies like Netflix to replace them with AI which for writers and actors is essentially life and death like squid game they do not want their existence to get exterminated by AI is really what

[00:49:08] it was about more so than wages. I think it's both because I've heard well I don't want to get like too deep into this but that when there was the whole cable TV system well yeah I guess you would

[00:49:21] know more than me David because you're in this but what I'm my understanding of it is there were residuals that happened in the previous system that aren't happening now and so as a TV

[00:49:29] writer you can't even make a living at it unless you get some kind of a that is true but they're also was a huge fight and this contract did not end the fight this will be ongoing

[00:49:41] on how these companies are able to use the voice image and production and seven actor once the is done because they're worried that like hey if you can just make a computer me like you'll

[00:49:54] hire me for one show and then that's the end of me so yep and they can already do that with extra background actors but yeah that was part of the negotiations too. Does anybody do you

[00:50:04] have watched Bojak Horseman? I still haven't gotten around the watching them. Oh my god Bojak Horseman is so freaking great there is a whole storyline where Bojak gets scanned and for his role as secretary and it ends up getting nominated for an Oscar. His image

[00:50:26] for his images performance which actually they're like yeah your image is performance was did a much better job than you. Yes brilliant show that is really all about the movie business entertainment. That's great yeah exactly. I've been like as much as I totally understand and

[00:50:45] right there with you if you're an actor and you're afraid of this and anybody who's afraid of AI and that it will take over their job I'm also really fascinated with it and I've been going

[00:50:55] in and making images of characters that would normally hate each other just hugging each other so there's like Michael Myers Jason from Friday the 13 days of War He's and Freddie Kruger all in a group

[00:51:06] hug you know it's really sweet or Rick Grimes hugging his army and they're like all it does link up together. Very sweet. All right we're getting way out track who who's who I think

[00:51:17] David maybe? David yeah okay so one of the things I really liked about this episode is in it it kind of set the lineup so I think we know who's the main characters are gonna be at this point

[00:51:33] but also it sort of set them up as archetypes they're they're all almost representative of a type of character so you know we've talked about Guihun a lot he's sort of the

[00:51:48] fool is probably too strong but I was gonna say sympathy for you know he's a flawed protagonist. Yeah he's just kind of a fuck up but you kind of you like him anyway you know

[00:52:03] Gufi a bit a little bit Gufi have Sabiak who is this hard-eged character because of circumstances but has this deeply sympathetic backstory you have sang Wu like the fallen Icarus who flew too close to the son who's at every advantage in life and yet has squandered them

[00:52:26] you have the closest thing we have to appear villain as the straight-up criminal do you know who is you know as unlikable as could be and then Abdul Ali I would call the innocent as an archetype you know he's really the one who seems like

[00:52:42] he wouldn't hurt a fly and hasn't done anything to anyone and then the old man who is sort of this wild card of a sage elder and but I think what's interesting about this show and in those

[00:52:58] are very sort of common archetypes in every show that has a lot of characters and that has a heroes journey type of thing but I think what we know already from this show and what

[00:53:11] people like me enjoy about it is we know it's gonna be perverse this is gonna be a perverse hero journey where every one of these people gets corrupted and tested and just dragged down to the worst

[00:53:27] elements of their character because it's gonna be life and death and they're gonna be pitted against each other in a way that reminds me a little bit of the hunger games yeah the hunger games was a lot like this in that you had archetypes

[00:53:45] the same kind of thing you had the villains from district what ten you had catnys every dean who is the definitely the hero protagonist you have you know on and on all the different archetypes battling it out to the death against each other with only one winner

[00:54:07] emerging at the end and and and I always read the hunger games as sort of a metaphor for war that that they were in in lieu of battling each other at the capital in lieu of all the districts

[00:54:26] rising up and battling the capital they would have they would get these young children to come in and battle it out and everybody gets their their war aggression out and they are you know the

[00:54:42] representatives and it always struck me as so incredibly unfair and sad and awful just like just like war in war where there's war profiteers who are like yes there's more war happening this is great

[00:54:57] yeah yeah exactly exactly and this reminds me a lot of the hunger games I think your analogy is a great one it's very similar I would say the hunger games although it has a couple moments of humor

[00:55:12] plays it a lot more straight and just kind of tackles the themes head on and seriously and um you know this one is much more like dark satire but the themes are similar and the character archetypes

[00:55:28] I think there was a I never saw it but there was I think it was Japanese movie that was maybe based on a manga or something called Battle Royale I've never seen it I've heard of it

[00:55:41] yeah and I think that might have been the first one because I remember when I heard that I was like what kind sick person may this same thing kids on an island trying to kill each other and then they had

[00:55:55] yeah hunger games and this show and there's been I think there's probably a big giant one that I'm missing that the maze runner was sort of like that I guess it's just sort of a genre now with

[00:56:08] different takes on it yeah although the maze runner it wasn't for the entertainment of others but in both hunger games and squid game it is the running man if you remember that movie oh you're

[00:56:19] awesome you know but it's like gladiatorial games for entertainment where your lives are at stake yeah okay can I do one before is it all right so motivations to go back to the game and after

[00:56:37] the vote to leave the rest of the episode is showing all the pressure in a few characters lives that leaves them to choose come back we've talked about a couple of them saying woo and

[00:56:46] say be all in particular it's almost like a retry at the first episode because it's showing what in their lives would motivate them to take part of this but it's more characters but but the first episode was what would motivate them to take part in some mysterious game

[00:57:02] and this showed what would motivate them to take part in a less mysterious game because it's one where you know that it's life or death at the stakes are known any either direction the stakes are known you could either die but you could win 35 million dollars

[00:57:16] if they didn't know in the last place right but um the pain of their lives makes 35 million worth the risk here eventually they come to that conclusion I think we are all motivated to do

[00:57:31] anything we do by either avoidance of some kind of pain or discomfort or seeking some kind of reward or a combination of both that's why we do anything I believe and so when this guy yells at

[00:57:47] this woman number two twelve because she votes to keep the game going what are you doing she's like it's just as bad out there as it isn't here so that's what this whole episode called hell is

[00:57:57] is a commentary on how miserable people feel because of their circumstances in their life and oh you'll know the older guy he says now that I'm back out I realize everything is said is true

[00:58:10] it's a worse hell out here so I'm like all right what makes it a hell and I thought it was interesting how some of it is personal jeopardy but a lot of it is not is these characters

[00:58:24] feeling responsible for their family members and not wanting to bring the family down with them or let them down and there's more pressure when someone else is dependent on you or you've hard someone else who want to make it right and I think that's particularly uh interesting with

[00:58:45] a Korean show because I think family tends to be even more important in Asian countries and cultures than Western or at least caring for family tends to be more expected and necessary

[00:59:01] again I asked chat GPT to tell me a bit about the importance of family in South Korea and specifically about like obligation to parents and it said families very important in South Korean culture as it is influenced by the confusion values of family, piety, loyalty and harmony

[00:59:18] traditionally Koreans believe that they inherited the blood and spirit of their ancestors and that they had a duty to continue the family lineage and honor their parents and elders. Children were expected to treat their parents with respect to no obedience

[00:59:31] and to take care of them in their old age parents were also responsible for providing guidance protection and education for the children family members were seen as part of a collective unit rather than as individuals. However, in recent decades South Korea has undergone a rapid social

[00:59:47] and economic changes which have affected the family structure and values. More women have entered workforce, more couples have opted for smaller families or no children, more young people have moved away from their parents homes and more elderly people have lived alone or in nursing facilities.

[01:00:01] These trends have weakened the traditional bonds and obligations between parents and children's and have created conflicts and challenges for both generations. Some parents feel abandoned or neglected by their children while some children feel pressured or burdened by their parents.

[01:00:15] Therefore, the importance of family and the obligation to parents in South Korea are not as clear cut as they used to be. They depend on various factors such as personal preference, economic situations, cultural influences and legal regulations. For example, South Korea has a

[01:00:30] lot that requires adult children to support their parents financially if they're unable to do so themselves but the enforcement and application of this law are not consistent. So I just think that

[01:00:42] lenses is important to look through this because it's not, and I have a sense of this because my wife is Taiwanese and it's just so you could tell that she just, she loves her mother of course

[01:00:57] but she just feels this cultural obligation as well to make sure that she's looked after. Even though in the United States we do have a better safety net. I look that up too. Then they do

[01:01:09] in South Korea, anyway. I don't know about Taiwan but it's just such a big part of the culture that the kids are going to take care of the parents which is why it's so striking when

[01:01:23] Gui-Hoon isn't more concerned at times about his mother. It seems like but here when she has her feet messed up and she's got diabetes and she can't pay the hospital bills

[01:01:40] and he discontinued the insurance so he messed that up and she's got to work to pay the rent because he's lost on the money and he doesn't work and so it's kind of his fault that she's in the

[01:01:54] condition that she's in and she's might lose her feet and so yeah or die and so when he beats runs and he's trying to find alternatives this whole time borrow money from his friend no go

[01:02:10] tries to borrow money from his ex-wife and that's a no go and we'll talk about the husband in minute but he's really not eager to get back to these games but when he runs into oil nom and oil nom says

[01:02:24] yeah this just like worse out here than it is in there and it just sort of seems to sink in that all right I guess I do need to go back in there with everything that's going on there's no

[01:02:37] there's no other alternative yeah he's feeling pressure to support his child and help his mom and he's got it you know both directions where he's and it's not even necessarily to support

[01:02:52] his child because I think the father is taking care of her but that's the threat of not seeing his child which is was a big thing in episode one too like that's another motivation is she

[01:03:06] he the guy tries to give a money but says basically you can't see your kid anymore you know you can't contact us anymore and then he punches him in the face and they're sort of making it

[01:03:16] they're sort of making that impossible for him to see her because they're moving to America so he's got to get money also to get the tickets to go over and see her or well with her last week

[01:03:27] they said if you had enough money maybe you could get custody and prevent her from going I don't know if that's actually an option but um but yeah I think that's an interesting wrinkle because it's not

[01:03:38] just obligation there it's a desire he does not want to be separated from his daughter and then the ret about I won't go into too much detail but with Sabiak the North Korean that's

[01:03:51] clearly about family she wants to re-night her little brother with his parents and also bring the parents over Ali wants to take care of his wife the migrant guy and kid and kid saying

[01:04:06] well it part of that at least is about having put his mother shop in danger and everything and disgracing her maybe yeah yeah he wants to live up to her image of him that was crunchy

[01:04:22] they only want like ducks through the gangster guy we don't know if that has anything to do with family apparently he's just in mortal danger because I think if I got it right he gambled away his boss's money at a Philippine no casino or something something like that

[01:04:38] the Philippines and then the old guy oh he'll nom he just seems bored like he doesn't want to fritter his life away doing nothing so he's like hey I'll go back in i mean he does say that it's

[01:04:50] true what they say out here the torture is worse but he doesn't really talk about what that's like but he seems like he's missing a family to me yeah that's why he would want to go back and

[01:05:02] and they talked about it in the first episode where um uh geohan says to him you should be you know with your daughter-in-law cooking meals for you hanging out with your grandchildren he's like well

[01:05:14] why aren't you doing that and then in this episode he says I have nowhere else to go so I'm staying with a friend so I think they're calling attention to his lack of the family mm-hmm and then so

[01:05:27] that I loved how there was a montage of them all waiting in their spots for the vans and then when they get in the van this time the knockout gas comes they're choosing it they're like okay here we go

[01:05:40] they're fully consenting and i think someone argue that they're not consenting because they feel like they don't have a choice and i i can understand that but like i said we're all motivated to

[01:05:52] anything we do by either avoidance of pain or seeking a reward or accommodation of both and they all have the combination of both really we also find out um a new wrinkle about the detective we haven't

[01:06:06] talked about that yeah let's get into that go ahead yeah so uh what the first things uh geohan does is goes to a police station to report the craziness and it sounds it sounds insane quite frankly

[01:06:21] and he doesn't have any proof and so funny when he's trying to explain what happened they're like wait wait what happened exactly that seems crazy i love i liked that he went i do too

[01:06:32] because uh like yeah that's smart and then when he's saying and i'm like oh yeah no one yeah is gonna believe that and then can i rebut the officer said to sum it up yeah go ahead he's just so

[01:06:43] i understand you went to play kids games because someone told you get all the cash all that cash so then they had you play some red light green light and they shot everyone who got caught but you said

[01:06:52] you well when you said you wanted to go they said okay just go and you don't know what they look like or where this all took place yeah ha ha exactly what are we going to do about that yeah right

[01:07:04] but it it's not just a ridiculous story they do not care like he could say anything and they would not care these comments yeah i don't know about that i mean i was impressed that the guy

[01:07:16] actually did try calling the number it's like oh yeah that's true i think they're like if you can give us something to work with will i do something i disagree with you on this one i think he called the

[01:07:27] number do you know a n because i feel like i was thinking about it and maybe you're right but what my take is on a lesser show the cops would have just been like get out of here we don't care about

[01:07:37] anybody and i don't care what you say we just don't care but in this show to me it felt like they were like okay yeah what do you got to say we're here to help and then they're like oh we can't help you

[01:07:49] with what you brought us so do you think that the um do you think the game makers saw that it was a number that was coming from some somebody other than jihun um do you think they then

[01:08:05] got an actor to come on as like they you got the wrong number what are you talking about who is pervert stop you stop bothering me they're just or they're just burner numbers that change

[01:08:16] you know you get the idea these folks are pretty sophisticated yeah not gonna be easy to trace yeah i think that's probably it's more fun to think that they had actors ready for it but

[01:08:27] i think that's probably what it is like a burner number because they don't give them another number to call they just give them a time to show up um like the the second business card that they

[01:08:40] get they all get a very efficient they do the littlest amount they do they do show up at this time and here's the you know at the same place same place this time this this day um yeah it would have been

[01:08:56] a little crunchy going to kinkas and to explain what those cards are we're all about as you're printing them up i just know i didn't notice last week that it also has the symbol of the like

[01:09:08] squid game court on it yeah the so what about the one detective who believes them yeah and goes to his brothers room and finds the matching card and talks to um finds jihun which is amazing sort of

[01:09:32] needle and haystack finds him in this district and tries to get him to cooperate at the variant and jihun's having none of it and well i think he believes him after he finds the card

[01:09:46] he remembers him and then when he finds that the card that goes with that story and his brothers disappear he doesn't believe him until that yeah right he's investigating his brothers'

[01:09:58] appearance finds the card right and he's like oh yeah i'm sure that crazy guy yeah yeah yeah and then investigates finds out the district he's from no he's addressed but the district and then goes

[01:10:12] and finds him and um and then has decided at the variant we see that he is decided to pursue and to follow at that point because jihun had not found that they left him another card yet

[01:10:31] but he refused to help the detective guide jihun hoe he said something like if you think i get what you think i could ever be useful for anything so it sounded like he was just really down on

[01:10:42] himself but i don't know why do you think he said he was just making it up and he was drunk because decided already to go back yes i think i think he felt a little defeated and so i think

[01:10:55] he was like fuck i'm gonna go back i'm gonna do it i don't want to talk to the detective is my decision that's what i'm gonna do go back yeah cuz jihun talked to the police pre-

[01:11:06] knowing about his mom's illness rain and pre the incident with his ex wife so he's in a different place now yeah one little note when the detective went to look in his brother's apartment there was

[01:11:27] a book called theory of desire by lacan who is a is this first name jakilacan i'm not sure anyways he's a 20th century French philosopher and that book theory of desire is about

[01:11:42] our innate nature to always feel like gap between what is and what we want it to be and so there's always a feeling of being unfilfilled in this unmet desire and he said something

[01:11:55] about language helps create this gap because the difference between what is said and what is met the signified and the signifier and it reading about all that just reminded me when i studied lacan as an English major and it made my head hurt but he's interesting

[01:12:12] it's interesting just to think that his brothers reading about want and lack and these involved in these squid games you know yeah exactly exactly yeah i love the detective too i love that it

[01:12:26] what the promise brings for the next episode heat to me seeing him i'm like you look like a young stud movie detective which i guess is fine but he's so young and good looking it

[01:12:40] almost the out of it yes there are cruder also the recruiter is uh outrageously gorgeous that that took me out of it too so it's say biaq honestly so yeah

[01:12:56] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah for this all right um david do you have any more uh i do and so i i think you cannot talk about this show without talking about the overall social

[01:13:12] commentary it's making and to me the um the main point besides what we've already talked about in both episodes about the economic system and all that uh the one that stood out in this episode is

[01:13:25] that the game is rigged uh the the game of life for these folks and it it's kind of made explicit in this episode so first of all at the very beginning the the um keepers appear with guns

[01:13:41] so the coercion which was implied and sort of their presence was manipulated now has become open coercion with force and then when some of the participants begged to be allowed to go home

[01:14:01] they say with the guy in charge says we're not here to harm you or collect your deaths let me remind you we are presenting you with an opportunity this is just a game um and the ones that were

[01:14:13] killed they were eliminated simply for breaking the rules of that game but these rules are going to be unfollowable by all but one or a few and the game is designed that way it was not

[01:14:28] really possible or expected for all in that game to survive and that's where we get into another aspect of inequality and society because we have that myth and we have it here that hey just

[01:14:44] follow the rules do the right thing be a good person you'll get ahead you know the american dream or whatever it is they may be the Korean dream in this case but that's not really possible

[01:14:58] we don't all start the game at the same place on the track and actually we start the race at very different places on on the track and the rules that are there in society are literally

[01:15:11] often unfollowable um so I'll give a couple examples from our society one as for example to try to navigate health insurance if somebody in your family has a life-threatening very expensive illness it's impossible you know oh you have health insurance you covered whatever but it turns out

[01:15:31] like you're not covered when something terrible happens there's nothing you can do against the arcane decision making and rules of that system I will give one other example that was in the news over the past few years and so in florida here in the united states a law

[01:15:52] was passed to restore the voting rights of former felons so felons who had served time in jale and state jale in florida could regain their voting rights by going through a registration process after

[01:16:07] they got out but then it actually turned out and this was after some of the law was changed that you would have to go through this process of making sure that all your deaths from the

[01:16:24] court system were paid before you could register to vote as a former felon and there actually is no cohesive system to do that and they don't even have to tell you so you could have

[01:16:37] some hundred dollar fine and some other jurisdiction another part of the state that nobody ever told you about go through the whole process do what the government told you to do register to vote

[01:16:48] and then after you voted the government could come back and say wait a minute you have this debt over here that you don't know about and it was actually illegal for you to register to vote and vote

[01:17:00] and some of those people went back to jale for voting so that is an example of just follow the rules but the rules are not followable in real life and I think that's what a lot of this show

[01:17:15] was getting out with the game as an analogy right to sort of lay it out as if what we made it fair but it's not fair and it's actually literally impossible for the majority of people to follow

[01:17:34] the rules as they've been laid out or else maybe I would put it where not everyone can win so it's you know everyone could follow the same rules and come to different results how come do I mean yeah different outcomes yeah so you're not guaranteed yeah yeah that's

[01:18:05] that's sort of what makes the show a cut above is a point like that it's not just for the the rules all right Karen do you have any other ones nope okay let's get into notes so I got

[01:18:23] you have sorry I want to interrupt with one oh we got one more go yeah one more point and after all this depressing sad negativity one other thing I saw in this show especially near the end was a

[01:18:38] little bit of hope and redemption and I think the show needs that too to keep you interested otherwise it would just be so dark that maybe wouldn't be but jihun's kindness to the old man

[01:18:51] for no particular reason then just to be kind the cop finding out a little bit and following along so there's a little bit of hope there somebody's hey somebody gonna do something about this

[01:19:06] sabiacturing it out to be awake in the van so maybe she's taking a little power over her situation now that she knows what to expect and so they gave us a few crumbs of positivity in

[01:19:19] this yeah and I know you don't agree but I would add in there that the police were like if you give us something to work with we will actually help you but this is just too ridiculous yeah no that's

[01:19:30] fair so yeah I like that all right let's get in some notes do you have any notes care random note I don't know David no I had a few I loved when sangu's mother was bragging about him to her friend

[01:19:48] and her friend said is he single yeah well how old is he I know so many might like well his standards are I know she looked very offended by that with his soul areas and she's about to be

[01:20:01] today she's her he's about to be cut down yeah the cop oh your son is wanted for fraud and and beseech right in front of her friend that she had just missed yep yep yeah

[01:20:16] few other notes my kids are very aware of squid games and that's because not because they've seen it because they're only six and twelve years old but it's just so big in the culture it's crept into

[01:20:29] video games and there's this ultra popular youtuber mr. beast who did a version of it where the it was like $456000 at stake and I think I don't know but I suspect because it is child like

[01:20:46] that that aspect has leaked more into other things without the horrificness you know well you also were given a cookie yeah well I'm gonna talk about that because I have a little story with it

[01:20:59] when we talk about squid game the challenge and in a minute here okay Jenny bought the same cookies from have we gotten to that no we haven't gotten to that but it's next time now yeah all right so again to mr. feedback

[01:21:38] let's do this first one is from Maria loss in who writes just finished episode one so I'm a little behind but I'm glad I'm finally watching this it is such a visually enticing show gosh that's

[01:21:50] for darn sure well the main surprise of this episode what eliminated actually means was spoiled for me it still didn't lessen the impact my favorite visual was the players walking through the MC Escher

[01:22:05] Barbie dream house on the way to the game I know I know I agree uh glad I'm spoiler free for the rest of the series and can't wait to see what happens next yeah I'm glad you are too and then we'll

[01:22:16] do our best to keep it that way so don't listen to the segment at the end where we talk about spoilers but I'm glad you're following along with us Maria Jennifer McGinley says I've watched two

[01:22:26] episodes of the challenge um do we want to talk about this now I think it's spoiler free enough that we can read this okay originally I thought the ads for it were for season two of squid game and

[01:22:41] only found out otherwise about a week ago that it was a reality show dive didn't last night without finding out anything about it so when they all started dying it was laughing my ass

[01:22:52] didn't know about the dormitory and the hallways being the same which was really exciting to see also had no idea they were following the games from the show suppose I thought it would just be random games made up

[01:23:03] really enjoying it it's camp wait to watch more later as for hell love this episode and getting to know more about our players then falling out of the coffin and just getting shoved back in indicating

[01:23:16] someone still live getting incinerated oh my god this shows as grotesque and it is gorgeous what's gorgeous about it you ask but you're thinking of the lovely ribbon coffins and strikingly colored gamerooms and hallways no that's not what's on my mind my gorgeous the introduction of detective

[01:23:35] Wang Jinho it's an utter tragedy that he spent so much time in a mask hope to see more of him in season two I've popped this pitch video on if anyone fancies look it's excellent you rewatch prompted

[01:23:51] memory of it and I went searching enjoy and by the way spoiler head she's talking about the Ryan George's pitch meetings have you guys watched any of those highly recommended youtube series where this guy Ryan George skewers Hollywood by pitching existing movies to execs and all their ridiculous

[01:24:12] does let's say we have this happen in this and like why would we do that ah money so hilarious and I'll put a link in the show notes to the squid games one that Jennifer's quoted for me

[01:24:23] thank you Jennifer alright Kara last jale says really enjoyed y'all's coverage of the first episode I've been to few episodes of season one as a rewatch today for refresher and now I'm cleansing my palette with few episodes of the reality show also yeah Karen I've missed her insight

[01:24:39] hey as for episode two I'll never forget the imagery of those giant gift boxes containing the bodies of the people and menated eliminated being incinerated especially a survivor's hand coming out

[01:24:52] only to see a guard shove it back in and nail the damn box shut it was such a good reminder of the carnage from the previous episode plus such a gloriously twisted detail you guys probably

[01:25:03] dressed this already but we do have voted to stop the game if you're in gihun's position yes if I was in gihun's position yeah I would have stopped the game I don't think risking death

[01:25:18] would have been worth it at that point now for the reality show oh actually maybe I didn't read this so let's save this for I'll read this when we cover the reality show tomorrow

[01:25:33] sounds good so thank you Cara alright there's a little bit of news actually you know what to be honest the news about squid games is also all about the reality show okay so

[01:25:47] maybe I'll just save that too but I will say I enjoyed the titles of a couple of the reviews varieties review is called the squid game reality show is as dystopian as it sounds and impossible to

[01:26:01] stop watching and um USA Today's review says surprise the squid game reality show is morally despicable and boring. can I ask a quick question about squid game the the Netflix television series is there going to be a

[01:26:23] season too? yes maybe you already talked about this in the last episode yeah this guy of go I don't remember his name now but he wrote and directed all of season one and he said it was super hard

[01:26:37] but then they wanted him to do more and I think they throw it ton of money at him so he said okay I don't know if he's writing and directing all of season two but there's even been a talk of season three

[01:26:48] where is going to take this thing? I have no idea yeah but they had it's um when you watch a squid game now on Netflix it has a little promo that says season two is coming soon.

[01:27:00] No kidding you know what when this is all done I'm sure you'll have people sure some in the host over the hosts are new to and whoever else is going to be joining you we'll talk about like what can be

[01:27:15] done next and I'm very interested to hear what you have to say because I have some ideas too. oh good I mean at this point I don't have a lot of memory of the details of the series so

[01:27:31] but I do remember when it ended hearing that there would be a season two in thinking that felt like kind of a complete story and it's I don't want any cash grab that degrade the quality of it

[01:27:44] there were some loose ends for sure but we can't talk about that right now. No we can maybe you could come on for the finale. Yeah and then you could we should have all of us. All of us that's a good idea yeah.

[01:27:58] All right can kill each other so we are as I said at the top gonna talk a little bit about Squid Game the challenge the new reality show based on Squid Game I'll say first that the

[01:28:09] airing schedule is the first five episodes came out on November 22nd. I've been through all of them. Episode six through nine come out Wednesday November 29th which as we're recording this is in a

[01:28:23] couple days it may already be out as you're hearing it and then there's just one more episode after that the final episode episode 10 which comes out on December 6th and me and Daphne are going to

[01:28:33] record a more in-depth podcast tomorrow about this but I'm curious to hear you guys thought it's about you've only seen the first two episodes right? Two and a half actually.

[01:28:44] Yeah I did so yeah yeah we may have spoilers for up to two and a half to three episodes of this if you don't want to hear that you should just probably stop listening right now.

[01:28:57] Yeah and we're not going into too much depth since you're gonna be going into a lot of depth yeah I just wanted to get whatever you really felt like talking about.

[01:29:09] Yeah I did have some I liked so mix bag for me in a word mixed bag into words mixed bag on the one hand it's it's annoyingly compelling. It's like it's like a bag of Doritos and you just want to keep eating and eating and eating

[01:29:33] even though you know maybe it's not that good for you so I think. All the elements shows are like that for me which is why I never start because I know I'll get sucked in. Yeah exactly exactly and this had some really interesting things in it because

[01:29:53] although they did have red light green light for the beginning the first episode was red light green light. They also had some other weird ones the producers made up in the dorms in between.

[01:30:08] I found them quite compelling for instance at one point I think it's in the second episode they have to choose which Delgana Delgana Delgona cookie symbol that they want to cut out and

[01:30:26] they for people are put into a room and they're like okay those are the four symbols you have two minutes to choose who's going every four minutes or whatever it is to choose who's

[01:30:36] gonna do what symbol and everybody wants you know the stars easiest one then the triangle then I guess the circle and lastly the umbrella nobody wants the umbrella it's the open umbrella by the way. And going like who like how they determine that is excruciating

[01:31:00] yeah and so much pressure so we know that at least from what we've read these producers of the show tried to make it so that the environment was like the squid games where you

[01:31:15] didn't see any people you only saw the cloaked figures then that would just create this atmosphere of pressure I feel like and then to stick them in these situations where you just find out oh by the way

[01:31:32] the four of you are gonna have to decide who all how easy this next game is for everyone that was behind you in line and one of you is gonna really fuck over everybody you know that are you're all out

[01:31:45] yeah it was not good yeah and and also I guess with these reality shows I don't watch any reality shows myself at all but I mean I have I guess in the past it's been like I don't know 10 years

[01:32:05] or whatever I remember watching a little bit of survivor and I they immediately start grouping up into into what do they call them when they go together alliances alliances they start and now I think

[01:32:23] these people have grown up with reality shows they just know by they don't even they kind of take it for granted all right we need to make alliances yeah and it is smart because you need help sometimes

[01:32:35] I get yeah I guess so although I also comes back in various ways to buy the alliances in the house too and I mean there's all kinds of game strategy how to figure it all out but

[01:32:49] nobody leads with kindness in these shows and kindness is a good thing people and they don't lead with kindness it's a very ruthless game during that like so as soon as that happened

[01:33:06] where they said the four of you need to pick these shapes I knew exactly how we would handle it and how would you handle it and I'm not always like that with these situations but especially since

[01:33:18] each line was sort of maybe already behind it yeah a shape so they sort of felt like maybe they had claimed to it I would say right away I am not going to subject all my people to this umbrella

[01:33:32] so I will kill all of us before I do that because I don't want to come out of here and have that just the elimination of a bunch of people on my shoulders I rather just take it myself so I just

[01:33:45] want you to know that right away so here's my solution to make it fair we're all gonna play Rochembo oh that's my that was my strategy and you and you and you and it's for the loser so whoever loses

[01:33:58] will play the loser of the other side and the loser of that person gets the umbrella that's fair take it or leave it right either we all die or we all play Rochembo yeah and if the

[01:34:10] people in your line lose you they'll know it was my chance and not because you cave to like this guy who kept almost throwing up full time it was excruciating yeah that was but I said

[01:34:29] to David I'm like Rochembo Rochembo they should talk about this yeah I can't believe and then when the second group of people came up and they're like let's race for it and I was like okay

[01:34:40] that's one way to do it but then the guy like touched the longest want you to go and then take off I'm like yeah yeah yeah yeah there's not a lot of heroism in this game play by the way if

[01:34:56] anyone wants to have a their mind blown I recommend a podcast I think it was radio lab I'm pretty sure it was radio lab and it was a episode I want to say it's called the golden

[01:35:11] golden ball the golden ball about this famous game show episode that happened in England some years ago and it is the most amazing episode of podcasting apart from everything Jason has ever

[01:35:30] done but it's it's all about game theory and it's in freaking credible you will your hero will stand on end go find it the golden I think it's called the golden ball we can put it in the show

[01:35:44] and it's all texted to you speaking of the tug of war I'm interested to see what you'll think in particular of the tug of war episode of squid get the challenge is there a tug of war in it

[01:35:57] you'll see excellent okay look who far into that oh that's another thing in the challenge I the the the bitch room where they take them into a private little rooms and they get to bitch and moan about their circumstances and the other players or talk about themselves

[01:36:24] yeah god I could do with less of that that's it was interesting because in the squid game show the main show they're all wearing these track suits and they have their numbers and it's very dehumanizing

[01:36:38] and I think that's the point but here those little interview segments the point is the opposite it's to humanize them so we'll care about what happens to them and actually it does make me care more

[01:36:50] when I hear a little bit of their lives it makes me more invested in them as characters but it's is a little bit of a conflict of intention there yeah and and it we are getting their backstory

[01:37:01] and that's great but oh they go on I mean they really have a lot of them yeah there's so many there's so many people that's what makes it different and you you start to follow somebody and for me

[01:37:15] I did like a couple of them and then there's suddenly gone and it's like oh shit so that that was sort of interesting and then you have to pick a new person yeah exactly exactly exactly

[01:37:27] David you hated it right how could you tell yes I will be the uh contrarian here I think the show and I watched it have watched two and a half episodes so far

[01:37:42] it disclaimer I'll probably watch the rest just because we're involved with that and talking about it so much but uh but you're curious too you got to admit I genuinely don't like this genre of show

[01:37:54] I find it to be empty bubble gum it's just contrived I don't like any of the people it's kind of the social media of TV shows to me um character your point just like you know everybody's a jerk

[01:38:09] and I just don't enjoy it that much many people I highly respect including our brilliant niece Leah love reality shows and get all into the game theory of it but it is not my cup of tea

[01:38:22] what about the older woman and her son oh can't stand them and I think they're really yeah his whole bump thing is a little weird like he kind of talks about her a lot

[01:38:36] it's like you brought your mom to the reality show and you talk about her all the time is a little weird to me I like the best probably but so um so I will read part of my the favorite review that I found on this

[01:38:52] which is from the New York Times and I don't always love the reviews I think sometimes they're too you know super silliest or whatever but in this case I agreed with the guy and it was there lead TV critic

[01:39:04] James Pony was it and uh if and I'm probably getting his name run but um so the headline was squid game the challenge is more depressing than the original and the subhead was squid game the

[01:39:20] challenge keeps the slick design of the dystopian drama but loses the point squid game the challenge keeps the dramas colitis scoffic set design its outfits and many of its competitions gets rid of

[01:39:32] the messy murder business sort of along with most of the uncomfortable ideas what's left is a beautifully designed but empty game box a creepy dystopia cosplay an answer to the question of

[01:39:46] what happens when you take a darkly pointed TV satire and remove its brains and that's kind of how I felt and I'm actually had a hard time watching it so I think I'm gonna put off watching the rest of it

[01:40:02] until I'm done rewatching squid game because we were rewatching them every other one and I was getting back into that amazing headspace of how great and dramatic squid game is and then we keep interspersing this like sort of very much dumber version of it and that looks

[01:40:23] that looks the same and it was kind of ruining it for me so I'm gonna I think wait till I'm done with squid game and then I'll go watch it that's a good idea I need to think a little more deeply about this

[01:40:34] I think it does definitely make a difference that there's no murder in it so if there was I would have a much different point of view about it um clearly I do think it's kind of cruel at times

[01:40:51] the character at as you go along you'll see that it gets psychologically harder on them than it has in the first few episodes and that's fascinating to watch but also it's kind of a little bit

[01:41:08] disturbing and like I don't know if I feel so good about that. I got to. I also did I did not like early in the show and I don't know how this develops because I haven't watched all five

[01:41:20] but that they let a couple of players just randomly eliminate someone. I thought that was unfair like even in the original squid game everybody had an equal chance so yeah I didn't like that

[01:41:31] that guy just got randomly eliminated. The idea at least I don't remember at this point but later on because I think yeah you didn't know in that case but it's a little spoiler but later on

[01:41:43] you do know when someone chose to eliminate someone else and that makes it simultaneously cruel but also interesting because now they may have a target on their back you know that kind of

[01:41:53] thing. Gotcha. I don't remember that dynamic happened but you know it was what it was just years ago my brain's been erased. Oh no we're talking about the talk about the show. Oh god the guy in

[01:42:08] the girl in the kitchen and they say can tell you whatever you can now lunate she's like why don't you pick this guy and he does. Yes so that and that doesn't happen in squid game the TV series.

[01:42:21] I don't remember anything like that happened to all just the games. No there were some choices you could make that would eliminate somebody but they were all in game. You saw in the game

[01:42:32] and everybody had the same. Right they all kind of chose these two things. Yeah yeah yeah the the movie is definitely much I mean the TV show is much more fair than the reality show

[01:42:45] I'm just kidding I don't know. So so I know I'm being very negative about it everybody should take what I think with a grain of salt because I don't like these kinds of shows I don't really like

[01:42:56] survivor. It's just not my bag. Yeah I have a weird relationship with them because I get really drawn in but then I made a choice a few years ago to stop watching them because I just felt like

[01:43:12] I don't know if this is a good use of my time so there was some conflict in there but now that we're doing the show and I'm watching it I'm finding it really fun and interesting to watch

[01:43:21] and I can't wait to see how it turns out so it's not exactly the way you feel but not exactly dissimilar either. Yeah and I will say that and here's my fucked up moment of the squid game

[01:43:34] the challenge. I kind of actually the thing I've enjoyed most that I've seen so far was the red light green light because I happen to know that when they filmed that they actually made them stand out doors

[01:43:47] in the cold for hours filming it it was all edited together but they actually were really freezing and kind of tortured. So I was like oh that's a little more realistic and they really decided

[01:44:09] Alright that is our show thanks so much for listening everybody next up as I mentioned we'll be doing a longer episode on Squid Game the challenge and then after that we'll next week we'll go on to

[01:44:18] Squid Game season one episode three the man with the umbrella it's a good one and if you want to write in or send us a voice message about that you can find all our country information at podcastica.com

[01:44:33] Alright that is our show thanks you're listening here's hoping this episode made you feel a little better about your lives too but if not please call the number in the show notes.

[01:44:55] I do want to do a quick spoiler segment here so for people who don't want to be spoiled in any upcoming episodes you should just sign up right now thank you so much for listening and goodbye

[01:45:06] so I consider yourself warned from here on out spoilers so I want to know why the old guy oh he'll nom voted to go home why did he do that since he's the big bad who's in charge of everything.

[01:45:22] I think he did it in order to give them to give them agency so that he knew they'd come back he knew a majority of them would come back so in fact get them invested in it or something.

[01:45:42] Yeah I think that he had absolute faith that at least and I think I mean since this is spoilery yeah I think it was like a hundred almost all of them came back not quite all of them but

[01:45:58] almost all of them came back was like a hundred and all or it's not always like a hundred and 80 something but yeah it was like a eighty percent of two hundred and that was all the money still in play though even though

[01:46:13] all the I can't bad I can't remember. I think so I mean I totally agree with you I think he did it for the purity of the experience. Yes I think he wanted the pure experience of only the people who

[01:46:27] after really being tested still wanted to be there. Right and they wouldn't they wouldn't pitch in my own like hey we didn't know how they know. Yeah but it's almost some sick twisted thing too

[01:46:41] it is just like you all picked this yeah you want yeah yeah exactly I also really am enjoying now that I know that O'Elnam is the the mastermind of it all now that I know that it's fun

[01:47:04] watching him this this go around to sort of see him and sort of see like oh that's why he's having so much fun right now. Oh and then you know that he didn't just stumble upon

[01:47:19] John randomly at the at the nudging him. Oh he's totally nudging him and I wonder who else he's visited clearly he didn't have time to go to everybody but he wanted John there.

[01:47:32] Well I think I think what's going on there and look it's not as great as watching this show the first time when it's a mystery but I agree with you that is a real compensation of watching it again

[01:47:46] as you can watch in a different way. Yeah and I think because Jehan struck up a relationship with him and was kind to him at the beginning I think that is why he has sought him out to make sure

[01:48:02] he comes back because I think he really wants to see what he is going to do if he is going to stay kind or if he has a breaking point or yep I think Jehan has become the most interesting

[01:48:17] participant for him. And I think that if you recall the tug of war sequence he's like he's like because Jehan isn't on his team and he's like here's how we're going to win this is how you win

[01:48:31] any teachers him the strategy and helping him. He helps him yeah I think he gives him an assist couple of times looking back on it. So anything else spoilery that you? Apparently one thing I saw

[01:48:46] when I was doing a little research for this episode there were a couple of tellls about the old man one is that obviously he's laughing and having fun which is different than everybody else when even

[01:48:57] after he knows that the stakes are he's still laughing and having fun and they're like hmm but I think that was plausible in the story. Absolutely but now that we know yeah we know we can see it in a

[01:49:10] different light also somebody else did some freeze frames when the the doll looks at when you get the dolls I view of all of the people in the green light red light game their outlines are in green

[01:49:28] they have a green overlay on them I don't know if you happen to notice that and that is true with all the players except for oh he doesn't have the green overlay on him so I had the feeling

[01:49:43] that he was never going I mean we know that later on he was never going to die that way in the game he was protected the whole time and that that's a tell another one is that he's 001

[01:49:55] another supposed to tell that you know he was the maker of the game and never was never going to die that way. Yeah those three things you mentioned I would say the outline is the most telling if

[01:50:09] you could even notice that because that's really singles about from other players somebody had to be number one yeah yeah yeah yeah that's true all very true all very true but anyway that was sort of fun

[01:50:28] it's fun going back and looking at that and knowing that also it's also fun to know that I didn't remember this I found out when I was doing the research for this particular episode

[01:50:40] that the detectives brother is the frontman and and was the winner of the previous squid games and that's like one of the big loose ends to sort of dive into the yeah the detective getting

[01:50:57] shot in the shoulder and then falling into the ocean did he die who knows maybe maybe not I'm guessing I'm guessing not to I think he's gonna team up in season two I think he's gonna team up with uh

[01:51:09] Jehan and um they're gonna try to put it into the squid that this was the 33rd squid game I just hope they can do it in a way that doesn't feel too repetitive and has a fresh angle on it or something

[01:51:24] I think they can I for sure think they can I'd be fun to see them a buddy buddy up and try to and try to put it into this and that these things are going on worldwide that there's death games all over the world

[01:51:37] but apparently the ones in the career the best ones according to them the creepy people who came to watch Yeah that kind of all kind of rings a bell but it's so it's I know I know I know

[01:51:51] I honestly don't want to try to remember I'd rather remember the little stuff Sorry no it's fine we're here to talk about it but I have done not to go on to try to look up like yeah

[01:52:07] I just I did because I wanted to know I wanted to put those glasses on and watch it with not particular lens and and clearly spoil your enjoyment