20: “Revelations” (BTVS S3E07)

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[00:00:51] Go ahead and post her. However she may be. Add us all fooled. Even Giles.

[00:00:58] Yeah. Well, you can't trust people. I should have learned that by now.

[00:01:03] I realize this is going to sound funny. Coming from some other, just spend a lot of time

[00:01:09] kicking your face. But you can trust me.

[00:01:13] Is that right? I know I kept secrets. But I didn't have a choice.

[00:01:20] I'm on your side. I'm on my side. That's enough.

[00:01:27] Not always. Is that it?

[00:01:32] Yeah, I guess. Alright, well then, I'll see ya.

[00:01:40] [Music]

[00:02:05] Hello everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Puffyverse podcast. I'm Penny.

[00:02:11] And I'm Steve. And I'm Kara. This episode we're going to be discussing Season 3, Episode 7,

[00:02:18] Revelations directed by James Conner and written by Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie.

[00:02:24] The original air date of this episode was November 17th of 1998. And when this episode

[00:02:31] originally aired, it pulled in an audience of 4.4 million households.

[00:02:37] That is a pretty good rating for a cable show back then or a side network show.

[00:02:43] You may have recognized the voice you just heard that wasn't me or Kara. And that is, in fact,

[00:02:50] Steve, famous for the live Steve voicemails that he leaves on various podcastica podcasts.

[00:02:57] Steve, welcome to Still Slaying and tell us a little bit about your history with Buffy.

[00:03:02] Thank you. Thank you so much for considering me and bringing me on.

[00:03:06] It's amazing. I love this podcast and what you guys are doing with it.

[00:03:10] I was a fan of the movie, the original Christy Swanson movie.

[00:03:15] And when I heard there was going to be a TV show and it was going to be a little bit darker.

[00:03:20] I was very excited because I really, really wanted to enjoy it. And I watched it from the beginning.

[00:03:26] I've rewatched it. I don't know how many times I've watched Angel and rewatched Angel as well.

[00:03:32] And, you know, for me, it was one of those things in the week.

[00:03:35] I was born in 1970. So I was, I was these actors age, not the age they're playing.

[00:03:42] But, yeah, like, I don't know if I mentioned this on any of my live steez or not, but I have a huge crush on Chris the carpenter.

[00:03:49] I'm not the, not the character. Why would the actual actress? Yeah, the actual actor.

[00:03:55] And when I, I thought bad sometimes about that. She just a kid.

[00:04:00] And then I remember reading a bio of her where it said that like she was a Laker cheerleader in like 1991.

[00:04:06] And I was like, was she a cheerleader? Would she use 11?

[00:04:09] You know, and so I finally found out, according to IMDB, she's a month older than I am.

[00:04:15] Oh, awesome.

[00:04:16] I know longer. I didn't have that feeling.

[00:04:19] And she still looks good today. I almost had a chance to meet her.

[00:04:25] A few years ago, she was in Tulsa. And I went to a public convention up there that she was in.

[00:04:31] And I really wanted to see see her. It was in August, though. And if you know anything about August and Oklahoma.

[00:04:37] I was like super hot, and I had to part half a mile away from the venue.

[00:04:41] And when I got to the door, when I was getting up to the door to enter, I, they were using a metal detector.

[00:04:49] And I realized I had left my pocket knife in my pocket. So I had to go all the way back to my car, get rid of my pocket knife and then come back and stand in line again.

[00:04:58] So the time I walked in there, I was a sweaty mess.

[00:05:01] And I had gone there also, because Mike Grell, he's a comic illustrator and I had a whole run of one of his comments like two or three of the first edition prints from the 80s that I wanted to autograph.

[00:05:12] So I went and got that done, got him to autograph those comics. And then when I went to go to Christmas booth.

[00:05:19] It was a weird setup. I don't remember what the convention planners were, but you had to get a ticket to stand in line.

[00:05:29] And then you weren't assured. We had to buy a ticket to stand in line.

[00:05:34] And then it wasn't even guaranteed you were going to get to up to her.

[00:05:38] Before she left. And I was like, I'm not going to spend 20 bucks and then you had to get there again and send another like 20 or $30 for a selfie or autograph or whatever you wanted.

[00:05:48] I was just like, I can't do that. So I just ended up going home. But no, that's a long story to say that I've had a long history with the Buffyverse and with the angel.

[00:05:58] And I just love the shows all.

[00:06:01] Awesome. That is awesome. Steve, you do your own podcasting. What are the podcasts that you work on?

[00:06:09] Yeah. So the main one that I do with my with my partner, Mark, is podcast partner.

[00:06:16] Is called panels to pixels the panels to pixels podcast. And we're, we've kind of been on a hiatus. We, we started, what if, and then I've had some health issues and it's, it's kind of sporadic.

[00:06:29] But yeah, if you want to subscribe to it, you'll get notified whenever we put new new episodes out. We will be doing echo here sometime soon. Hopefully.

[00:06:37] Again, that's that's panels to pixels, podcasts.

[00:06:40] And that is the same mark that we had on last week, right? Yes, yes. That is the same mark you had on last week. We are that worked out. Yeah, we have quite a little community of podcasters and we all support each other. And it's really, it's really lovely.

[00:06:55] It is amazing. It's great. Let's go back to November 17 1998.

[00:07:04] Let's talk about what was still at number one in the U.S. for number one song. It's still do off that thing by Lauren Hill. And it's been like three weeks now I think.

[00:07:18] Is that right? That that was number one. I've been listening to it in my car on the way to work every morning for a little bit of nostalgia.

[00:07:25] In the UK, the number one song is still believe by share. I've not been listening to that.

[00:07:32] That song will get in your head and never leave you.

[00:07:36] Yep. I used to think I had an excellent share impression and I would make my family listen to me sing this song over and over again.

[00:07:45] So, yeah, I'm just, I'm okay if I never hear it again. I'm sure my family is too. And at the box office in the U.S. number one is ants.

[00:07:58] Number two is saving private Ryan and number three is small soldiers and water boy, water boy isn't too far behind at this point.

[00:08:07] That is such a strange lineup of movies. It really is.

[00:08:16] It's so random. The late 90s were weird. On this day in history, we have some space related news. You all know how much I love stuff and such a NASA fan.

[00:08:26] The Leonid meteor shower occurs on November 17 1998 featuring glowing trails of comet dust in the night sky said to be the most intense meteor shower in 30 years.

[00:08:39] It threatens about 500 satellites now circling the globe.

[00:08:43] It also voids your one overtakes pioneer 10 as the most distant man made object from the solar system at a distance of, I'm not going to read that first one because I don't know what that is 1.03849 times 10 to the 10th power kilometers, which it doesn't really matter what that number is.

[00:09:02] It's like mind bogglingly large distance is what you need to know.

[00:09:08] It's like, so fun fact, AU is astronomical units.

[00:09:13] And one AU is one distance from the sun to the Earth's orbit, which is about 93 million miles.

[00:09:22] Oh, so isn't that insane to even try to wrap your brain around. I was sitting there like, man, good thing I'm not high right now because you know, wild.

[00:09:40] I remember this meteor shower because people were talking about going camping and stuff so they could see it because I was living in New York city.

[00:09:47] There was no chance to see a meteor shower, you know the light pollution from that city is intense. So I just had to like, and back then there wasn't like live webcams and stuff like that so you could vicariously enjoy it.

[00:10:00] So I just had to wait for the color photographs in the Sunday, New York Times.

[00:10:08] Oh, thank goodness. Well, it's good and good. Yeah, that's true.

[00:10:14] All right, well during the the week of November 16 1998 November 19 bill Clinton in the impeachment trial for Bill Clinton is ramping up on Thursday, November 19 the house to just your committee is to open impeachment hearings in Washington.

[00:10:29] Independent Council Kenneth star is scheduled to testify. The next day on November 20 a Russian proton rocket is launched from the.

[00:10:40] Wow, that's a yeah I just gave you all of the different.

[00:10:44] In Kazakhstan, Kerry, contrary, Kazakhstan. Yeah, always. Weird. I always thought that was a made up country, carrying the first segment of the International Space Station, the 20, the 21 ton Zaria module.

[00:11:02] Come on, thanks. I know, welcome to the podcast.

[00:11:08] My fire, Iraq backs down and then a defense.

[00:11:15] And then defense arms inspection, November 15, Quentin says Iraq, President.

[00:11:20] It's an obvious saying has retreated, and again, vowed cooperation with the United Nations.

[00:11:26] November 22 Iraq reverses Stan and says defiantly that it has the intention of cooperating with.

[00:11:35] A little intention. Yeah, a little intention. Thank you. A little intention of cooperating with inspectors. Just casually ramping up tensions.

[00:11:45] Believe me, I was in for those who don't know, I did 20 years in the Air Force and so I was not overseas at that time, but I was definitely keeping an eye on that.

[00:11:57] I can imagine. What was that like Steve? Gosh. Well, so I joined. I joined in 89.

[00:12:06] And just before Desert Shield Desert Storm. And so I kind of volunteered and well, I didn't kind of, yes, that's it. We all, we only have volunteers.

[00:12:17] But I just, I wanted to serve my country, my brother and my father and my grandfather had all served, served this country and I wanted to do the same.

[00:12:27] I had some some plans that got derailed as well, but it's, it's a little, it's a little strange, particularly after 9/11.

[00:12:36] We had guys that, that actually ended up getting out because they didn't want to go. They had joined prior to 9/11.

[00:12:45] And when they found out they might have to go overseas and actually fight for their country, they, they decided to get out instead.

[00:12:54] And I went, I was, I spent eight months in the Sultanate of Oman. After 9/11. It is, it's a scary moment. When you, I think it was, I want to say it was.

[00:13:05] Gosh, she was two weeks. So about the 25th of September, 2001, I got the phone call from my bosses saying, you know, we don't know where you're going. We don't know when you're leaving. We don't know when you're coming back.

[00:13:18] But you're going. Okay. And then two days later, the next day I was in briefings, the next day they changed the name of the operation from ultimate justice to enduring freedom.

[00:13:30] And then on that Thursday, I was on a plane.

[00:13:34] Wow. So it is scary. It's, but it's one of those things that that's what at that time for me anyway, that's where I joined up for I joined to serve this country. And it's, it's amazing when you, when you start to run the numbers.

[00:13:49] And the number of veterans, retirees, active duty guard is less than 3% of the population of this country.

[00:13:59] Oh, wow. And I did not realize it was that it's very low. Yeah, it's, it's amazing to think that 3% of our population is what has guarded and is guarding our freedoms. So, does that include like defense contractor personnel.

[00:14:17] No, I think that's just that's just actual military. Yeah, actually. No, that's living living veterans, which is those that, that if you've been sort of like four years and you're out now.

[00:14:29] If you're a lot, it's living veterans and guard guard and national and national guard. Yeah, state guard national guard. I think.

[00:14:39] It covers all it covers everybody retirees veterans, less than 3%. It's, it's, it's staggering to think that's all the number is. Yeah, that's amazing.

[00:14:50] Especially when you don't mind a saying thank you for your service. Oh no, it's, it was my pleasure to see, you know, Steve, that's beautiful. You know, I'm from a military family as well. My father was career army.

[00:15:03] And I grew up in that world of, you know, moving around and instability.

[00:15:12] But also grew up with a very, very strong streak of patriotism and respect for the military and for the people that serve. So I do appreciate your service.

[00:15:22] And I advocate a lot with my political representatives for veteran care and military family support because I think those two things are super underfunded.

[00:15:35] Absolutely, I appreciate that as well. Oh yeah.

[00:15:39] All right, on to have a whole podcast on that. Yeah. On to a lighter topic of conversation. This is the episode with the intervention.

[00:15:52] And I love it. This is way before intervention was really in the zeitgeist and before there was like an intervention TV show. Yeah. So it was kind of like a fresh and novel thing to hear it on Buffy.

[00:16:07] At this time, we were sort of just as a population learning about the concept of interventions. I think there was an intervention, maybe the same year or a couple years earlier than this on party of five.

[00:16:20] And that was when I sort of learned about the concept, and was like, Oh, I get it, like, you confront the person, but you do it in a, you know, controlled setting and you all gather together and you try to peacefully tell them what's what, and then they need to make a decision.

[00:16:39] And it hadn't become a joke yet. And then later, did you guys ever watch how I met your mother.

[00:16:47] I was just going to say that was all the intervention. So they have just like intervention after intervention. If you're intervention, it was, it was incredibly meta. And, of course, Alison and again was in that show.

[00:16:59] Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to mention. That was what came to my mind as soon as I was talking like that was how I met your mother.

[00:17:04] Yeah, such a fun. And people, if you haven't seen how I met your mother, you don't need to even watch the whole show. Just find that episode. It's so funny. Yeah.

[00:17:13] How'd it look? Like a cop. Justice runs in her blood. I want you to focus on the tradition you're carrying on. That's our legacy.

[00:17:21] But when the line is blurred, I know how hard it is when your family is taken from you.

[00:17:26] Stay away. Just talk to me. Which side will she choose? Maybe you should reconsider the uniform and everything that it represents.

[00:17:34] I'd rather fight from inside it to make a change. Allegiance, new series, Wednesday. Watch free on CBC Jam.

[00:17:43] All right. Steve, as our guest, you get to start us off. Where would you like to start the conversation?

[00:17:49] I was just rewatching it this morning. And I had not caught where I watched it yesterday, the library in the that Gwendolyn Post is throwing at the Giles.

[00:18:01] Oh, these are all your books. Where are the rest of your books?

[00:18:05] I have this one. And he's so happy to go. I have this one. And she's like, Oh, OK, go good. Yeah.

[00:18:13] Yeah. So I just love the fact that we got the other.

[00:18:17] The other thing is, you know, the library has kind of become our central, this central kind of place. And you talked about it before.

[00:18:25] But it's also one of those moments when in the last episode, they did have study hall, I guess, which was in a chemistry class, which I didn't understand.

[00:18:34] But he tells them to go to your classes. And I'm like, wait, they actually go to class. Yeah, ever. We always, we always see them sneaking out.

[00:18:43] And just like, yeah. So that's, I mean, that's a brief one, but that's that just made me, get me a chuckle. Yeah.

[00:18:51] Gwendolyn Post is, first of all, Gwendolyn Post misses.

[00:18:56] I don't know what her deal is with putting this is at the end, but it just makes her sound so snotty. And she picks on him about the books.

[00:19:05] She picks on him about his being American. And when she, when she like replaces the tea bag at his apartment with like her tea that she carries in a tin.

[00:19:15] I love that moment. Oh my God. It is so mean.

[00:19:20] And I noticed that I was trying to figure out what she did. I saw her do something. I was like, what did she do there. And so thank you for.

[00:19:28] And she's saying, yeah, when when you let the little things go, everything else goes to soon everything will go to hell in a hand basket and she sort of pointedly picks up the tea bag like this is the little thing I'm talking about here.

[00:19:40] Like this is the proof that you are, you suck. And of course it's all this brilliant strategy on her part right to obfuscate her real motive.

[00:19:51] She, she invades the group, invade us the wrong word infiltrates the group beautifully. They all believe her because Giles doesn't have time to wonder if she's for real, because he's so busy defending himself against this ego threat.

[00:20:07] But it's brilliant. I mean she is brilliant.

[00:20:11] And I'm super impressed with her as a character. I love a female villain. That makes me happy because strong women aren't always nice.

[00:20:22] Women don't have to be nice to be interesting characters that are meaty to play. I looked up the actress. Her name is Serena Scott Thomas. She's done a lot of stuff. She's a long imdb page of stuff I have not seen.

[00:20:36] She was Princess Diana in a early 90s Diana story. It was called like Diana, the princess or it wasn't a very interesting name. But once I had read that and then I was watching the episode again I was like, Oh, I can totally see why they cast her as Diana.

[00:20:56] She's got the sort of classic symmetrical features that British face the sort of patrician like grace that Diana had.

[00:21:08] And I was like, Oh, I kind of want to watch that movie. And then I was like, No, I'll go down to Princess Diana rabbit hole, like I don't have time for that right now.

[00:21:15] I'm a big Diana fan. I think she was a remarkable person. Any, any man that grew up in the 80s that says he didn't have a crush on Princess Diana is lying. Yes, who you were.

[00:21:29] Yeah, you were into Carrie Fisher, right, you were into Princess Leia, you were in Princess Diana, and you had some very complicated feelings that came up when you saw Paula Abdul.

[00:21:42] Yes, I could totally admit all three of those.

[00:21:51] Yeah, Paula Abdul sort of burst onto the scene in the 90s and or in the 80s. And we weren't ready for her dancing and choreography. She was so energetic and sexy and also playful that I'm not into women, but like damn.

[00:22:11] Yeah, there playfulness is what really sells it like she danced for the cartoon cat.

[00:22:16] And everybody was like, Oh, her standards are low. She might, she might dance with me.

[00:22:23] Like a little schlub like me.

[00:22:26] Oh my gosh.

[00:22:29] That's fantastic.

[00:22:32] Yeah, I love how Gwendolyn post has pushed Giles so far off balance that he turns into a grump of the first order. He almost bites Xander's head off literally. Right.

[00:22:47] Yeah, like the past, I think it's like three out of the last four episodes he's been knocked out. Yeah, like that is wild. There's no reason.

[00:23:04] Right. So maybe this bad mood is a CTE thing.

[00:23:07] Hey, sit all out on Xander most of the time. Yeah, he really doesn't like Xander. He has no patience.

[00:23:14] It kind of cracks me up. It makes me feel bad for that is one thing, especially in, you know, an episode that we will get to in the future. The Zepo, that is one of the things that makes me feel really bad for Xander.

[00:23:27] I'm just like, come on, man. Build that guy's confidence up. Yeah, every, you know, you've talked about this before, but with Xander, I can't like there's, there's times when I have no, no defense.

[00:23:38] I have no way to defend him. And there's several moments in this episode where you just, you can't, but at the same time, you go.

[00:23:45] He's been, you know, he's been pushed down so much. Yeah.

[00:23:52] And the thing with, with, with Angel, as soon as he sees that Angel's back, he automatically goes to the dark side that it's, oh, it must be Angelus.

[00:24:01] Yeah. Or I don't care if it's Angel or Angelus. He's too dangerous to live anyway.

[00:24:06] That's basically what he, you know, that's the gist of his argument.

[00:24:12] And I mean, I guess we can dive into that point now, if you don't want to go for it.

[00:24:18] One thing that I do appreciate about this episode, it's very well written in that there's just so much gray. You can see where everyone is coming from with how they react and how they're feeling.

[00:24:35] And, you know, I understand Buffy, she had to kill the man that she loves. She grieved his death, moved on, and then surprise, he's back from the hell dimension she sent him to.

[00:24:47] And that's complicated. She doesn't know Xander kept from her that Willow had, you know, was performing the spell that Ginny calendar had left them.

[00:24:59] And so Buffy is confused as to why he's back, why his soul is restored, she doesn't know.

[00:25:06] Has she already, this is, this is after she's already told Giles that his soul was returned, right, that she saw the light go into his eyes.

[00:25:13] Yeah, she revealed that.

[00:25:15] Yes.

[00:25:16] In the second or third episode or.

[00:25:18] Yeah, like the third episode I think when, um, yeah, he was kind of to admit her dark secret than Buffy.

[00:25:24] Yeah.

[00:25:25] Yeah.

[00:25:26] So, so she.

[00:25:28] Go ahead.

[00:25:29] No, go on.

[00:25:30] So, like I said, she, she's told them that his soul was returned.

[00:25:35] Uh, was back and she knew that and now they see her, but everybody jumps to that, even Giles, you know, there's that moment in the library where Giles tells her.

[00:25:44] You don't respect me. You don't, you know, you don't respect what I'm doing or what my job is because you kept this, this from me, he tortured me for hours just for fun.

[00:25:52] I know this is a lot to absorb, but Angel did find the glove and that was it a bit.

[00:26:00] I won't remind you that if the face of the world often lies with the Slayer, what would be the point?

[00:26:06] No, Slayer, I remind you that you've jeopardized the lives of all that you hold dear by harbouring a no murderer.

[00:26:15] But sadly, I must remind you that Angel tortured me for hours.

[00:26:21] For pleasure.

[00:26:23] You should have told me he was alive. You didn't.

[00:26:29] You have no respect for me or the job I perform.

[00:26:34] It's a brutal scene, right?

[00:26:37] It kills me, but one part of that drives me nuts every time I watch this episode and it's part of what bugs me with the Scooby's reaction in that intervention scene in general is nobody seems to care to separate anymore that essentially

[00:26:59] Angel and then jealous are two separate entities. And Giles says, you know, you are harboring a known murderer, Angel tortured me. I'm like, but Angel didn't.

[00:27:12] And I know that's a point that's been talked about in the fandom quite frequently, but it just drives me crazy that nobody seems to want to be pointing that out except for Buffy.

[00:27:26] And, you know, there are a few instances where we get it made pretty clear to us that a vampire is not the person that they, you know, killed and now inhabit.

[00:27:43] Angel doesn't even see or Angelus doesn't even see Angel as part of him. And I think it's, gosh, I wrote it down. I think it's an innocence where he's got Willow in the hallway and he's kind of, you know, got his arm around her and threatening her.

[00:28:00] And Buffy says, I'm going to pull it up. So I don't have to stumble around it.

[00:28:11] Okay, so it is, it's an innocence when Angelus has Willow threatening her in the hallway Buffy says Angel there must be some part of you inside that still remembers who you are.

[00:28:22] And then jealous responds dream on schoolgirl your boyfriend's dead. And back in season one, way back in the second episode.

[00:28:33] I feel like people forget about poor Jesse.

[00:28:37] Yeah, who was killed and kind of used as bait to draw the Scoobies in to the master's trap. And when Jesse has been, you know, changed into a vampire Zander confronts him.

[00:28:53] And he's like Jesse man we're buds don't you remember and Jesse says you're like a shadow to me now. So it's clear that there is still memory of the past of who this person was.

[00:29:06] But later on, Zander is upset, because you know his friend has been changed into a vampire it's the beginning of him even understanding and knowing that vampires exist.

[00:29:19] And he's trying to convince the gang to go back to get Jesse before he does something stupid and Giles kind of has a come to Jesus moment with him where he says you listen to me Jesse is dead.

[00:29:33] You have to remember that when you see him you're not looking at your friend, you're looking at the thing that killed him.

[00:29:40] And it just drives me nuts that they don't seem to acknowledge that anymore that and jealous is who did all of this. And I can see if they're maybe wondering if somehow I don't know if they don't trust Buffy's judgment.

[00:30:00] She is very happy and that he's not somehow tricking her, but Xander seems to accept that he is really angel because he says that lovely line of, you know, what basically are you waiting around for what for angel to go psycho again the next time you give them a happy oh well. Well that also drives me crazy because it's just a fundamental fundamental misunderstanding of the curse. Yeah. And I.

[00:30:29] I want them to take a second and I understand that they're all reacting emotionally how could they not they feel betrayed that is justified that Buffy kept this from them, especially Giles, but I also understand Buffy wanting a little bit of time to try to kind of figure out what is going on, and if she had gone to Giles immediately and told him would Giles be able to approach that rationally himself after being tortured.

[00:30:59] I like that at the hands of Angelus so everyone is really in kind of a bit of a gray area where I can understand where they're coming from, but the misunderstanding of the curse is probably one of the things that really bugs me.

[00:31:16] The thing is, with Xander, you're the first thing he sees is he sees them like fiercely making out like I'm like aggressively making out and like he doesn't see when Buffy pulls away but so that's triggering for him.

[00:31:36] In both respects of jealousy and of what if they. Right. You know, fault and temptation.

[00:31:44] But, by the end of the episode you have, you have Willow saying that she's she's okay with him because he saved her life, Xander saying well I'm not, and then Cordelia saying I don't trust you.

[00:31:58] So they all run the gamut of so I like that you what she said there because I think it's they all have they have justification for what they're feeling and thinking.

[00:32:09] But it's also they're not taking into account that he's at least at this time he's not Angelus, yeah, and they're not giving Buffy any compassion in that moment.

[00:32:20] She was trying to will us. Yeah, you know, she said nobody's doing the high statements, you know, yeah, she's she's trying to be measured and open minded, but Xander has always hated angel Buffy calls him on it and you know he uses him

[00:32:37] to see which of course makes Claudia upset because it's a sore spot to courty that Xander is still into Buffy and she knows it. And Cordelia makes a really good point that like Buffy isn't really the one who's as much at risk as the rest of them.

[00:32:51] And because Angelus didn't want to kill Buffy, he wanted to torment her and by killing her friends and so court he's like I'm afraid for me.

[00:33:01] Right. Yeah, she's right to be understandable. And, you know, they don't know exactly how the curse was broken. They might know they might genuinely think it was the sex act and not understand that it was this moment of peace and contentment

[00:33:20] that Angel had when Buffy was sleeping in his arms. They don't, they might not know because she doesn't know she was asleep when it happens so she doesn't know exactly when it happened.

[00:33:32] The only thing with that, and I should have gone back and watched the actual clip, but I thought that in the episode surprise Jenny calendar made it pretty clear to everyone, what the curse was when she's reiterating that it's one moment of true happiness

[00:33:55] or contentment, and her people cursed and jealous to suffer and it is difficult because we as the audience know is it uncle enos enos, who has that line angel was meant to suffer, not to live as human one moment of true happiness of contentment

[00:34:14] one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts and that soul is taken from him.

[00:34:21] So the whole point of it is for him to be suffering and tormented by this remorse and guilt for eternity. I think there's another line about, you know, basically extending that suffering for generations.

[00:34:38] I guess this is my question for you guys because I was struggling with this back and forth. Angel, as you know, with his soul restored has all of those memories I would assume to some extent of when he was angelous.

[00:34:55] Yes, and knowing angel as we know him, broody guy, I would assume that he would probably never let himself get to the point of forgetting that and having a moment of true contentment, especially when Buffy's involved after making her suffer, after making those close to her suffer

[00:35:19] that he knows the nature of the purse. Yeah, I always thought about that I was like, can he ever have a moment of happiness again because whenever he would get close to it of course he would remember like oh no happiness makes me evil.

[00:35:32] I don't know. He was already played by guilt and then this person that he loved how deeply he hurt her and her friends like he had gotten friendly with some of the scoobies.

[00:35:47] I just can't see him getting to a moment of true contentment like that again. And there's plenty more to talk about about that in the spoiler section and about the curse.

[00:36:01] I just, at this as I'm talking it out I'm kind of realizing that they really only have that one instance of Jenny calendar explaining the curse that he experienced a moment of true happiness, which also I'm trying really hard not to go too hard

[00:36:21] after Xander in this episode but one thing I do not like about him as a person as a character is that whenever he is hurt.

[00:36:32] He goes for the jugular and he immediately pulls out some of the harshest things that you can say like when Buffy is kind of pleading with them to understand and to trust her a little and she's like it was wrong.

[00:36:48] You know I know, and I know that it can happen again the kiss. You guys have to believe me I would never put you in any danger if I thought for a second that Angel was going to hurt anyone Xander interrupts and says you would stop him like you did last time with Miss calendar

[00:37:05] And he's also completely ignoring that Jenny calendars last wish really like she really wanted to restore angel soul. And that seems to have happened.

[00:37:23] I don't like the way that I understand his reaction. I just don't like the way he continues to build on it and carry it out. That's the kind of arguing style that gets couples into couples counseling because when you go for the pain like that.

[00:37:46] You shut down. Any, you know, productive conversation because now you're just hurting the other person without it helping. And so I, you know, he and Buffy are not a couple, despite his very fervent wishes but they are close and close people know a lot about each other and know how to hurt each other and

[00:38:10] And if you're kind of a jerk or immature and I'll chalk most of this up to immature and jealous, then, you know, you go for maximum emotional damage and it's a hard thing to be on the receiving end I have had a person or two in my life who fought that way.

[00:38:26] I don't fight that way and so I'm also not good at defending from it. And what I usually do is disengage when I'm in an argument with someone like that because I'm like nope you're too mean gotta go.

[00:38:38] Xander is lucky that Buffy continues to be friends with him on an ongoing basis, because he has done this kind of thing to her a bunch where he just lets his jealous who turned him into somebody really.

[00:38:52] Looking ahead that future seasons, Xander is much improved. I think grows. Yeah, I think in season four, there's a noted uptick in Xander's character.

[00:39:07] So soon we won't be like bashing on him so much.

[00:39:11] Right.

[00:39:14] That's the thing too there's there's another topic we haven't we haven't touched on yet and that's that.

[00:39:21] And I still, I, I kind of get it that they, they knew Chris, but they probably knew Chris Carpenter was leaving the show to go to Angel so they had to find a way to separate, but this is this will.

[00:39:33] I just heard it is just, it's so ridiculous it just doesn't, it doesn't make sense and they go back and forth on who initiates because like, and I didn't notice it until this second watch this morning willows the one in the library who initiates he backs off.

[00:39:48] Yeah, you know he's giving her that that massage and he backs off and says no, we can't do that and then she initiates the kiss this time. And I'm like, what, what is will.

[00:39:57] And I'm thinking, you know, it's just not, it's not. Yeah.

[00:40:02] I, it's funny Steve I have recently been involved in some romantic drama of my own.

[00:40:10] And it's been interesting watching the series at the same time that that is going on because I have like a new compassion for Buffy and Angel.

[00:40:20] And the way that the heart wants what the heart wants and how you can be so drawn to someone that you can't think straight.

[00:40:28] And, and I'm remembering what it was like to be 17 and have very little experience in romance and love and dating and sex and to feel that.

[00:40:42] Like counterintuitive, stupid, even draw to a person who was not an appropriate choice.

[00:40:51] It has, it has made me a lot more forgiving of all of their behavior, because I'm like, you know, that human need to connect with another person.

[00:41:02] If it attaches you to someone who's not good for you, it is so hard to walk away.

[00:41:09] That makes sense. That, that helps, that helps me understand a little bit better and going forward.

[00:41:15] What's, what's going to happen. So, okay.

[00:41:17] I think also that Willow has some really deep insecurities from a lifetime of being a friendless nerd. Right. And so the fact that a boy she always had a crush on is paying attention to her now is probably like a dream come true overwhelming her.

[00:41:37] In a way that also she's unprepared to defend herself against, you know, like, and, yeah.

[00:41:46] It is not, you know, inconsequential that Cordelia is the one that Xander is cheating on. Cordelia was a mean girl. Yeah, and bullied them for years, especially Willow always commenting on her outfit choices.

[00:42:04] So there's probably a part of Willow that's like, you know what, it's my turn. You know, it also like his relationship with Cordelia is not even real. Who cares. Yeah.

[00:42:15] And it's, I mean, you throw in teenage hormones, the fact that she had been in love with Xander for years and that was completely unreciprocated.

[00:42:26] I think that would be a big struggle for her. It just breaks my heart because Oz is just like the perfect little boyfriend.

[00:42:36] And you know, Oz is the thing that makes the whole thing really hard to swallow because he's so generous and loving with Willow in like every way possible.

[00:42:49] At this point in the series, he does not have a single negative characteristic. We've talked about this how he's like annoyingly not yet. Right. Right. But he, he has done nothing to deserve this at all.

[00:43:05] It's so painful knowing that how hurt he's going to be soon. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:43:13] I liked the way that he participated in the intervention. He seemed to be there at first just to be support for Willow. But then in a crucial moment he was like, but you were kissing him right.

[00:43:27] And it's like he was like, let's all stick to the facts in front of us. And this is a big one. Like you can't ignore that that that was happening. And of course Buffy, you know, flies off of the handle that Xander was spying on her but

[00:43:43] I mean, kissing is a major, major point and she kind of knows that she's been caught and that that was a bad one. Yeah, when Giles points that out, like you must have known that it was wrong because you kept it from all of us.

[00:44:00] But if, if you weren't concerned about that, then you would have come to us and I get her reasoning, but I also understand his. Like, if, if you want to be up front and address the issue, then maybe come to them and say, you know, I need to talk to you about something serious

[00:44:19] and ask everyone to try and, you know, put emotions aside temporarily so we can figure out how to handle this. Yeah. She showed up to Giles at the very least. Yes, very least she absolutely should have told Giles and asked him for guidance because I think as much as Giles has personal reasons to hate

[00:44:39] Alice, and therefore, you know, kind of hate angel. He is at his core, a measured person who has a lot of experience and knowledge and has also had his own dark period where he did dark stupid stuff. So, yeah.

[00:45:01] And I could have understood. If she had gone to him and been like, remember how I told you that angel soul had returned to him before I sent him to hell. Like, I would start there and be like, all right, so I don't know how, but he just like showed back up again, but he seems to still have his soul.

[00:45:20] And I've been keeping him in the mansion, and will you come with me to see that he is, you know, don't bring any weapons, and just to see that he's still in the soul. And I think, I think Giles would have handled it, but I can, of course, understand why Buffy kept a secret.

[00:45:38] So, well, I think Giles has also kept a secret that put everyone live, everyone's lives at risk when he didn't tell them about that convenient demon they summoned when he was a teenager, and all of these deaths are happening and he knew why.

[00:46:01] And it's a big, you know, kind of a big moment where that secret could have really damaged the people that he cared about.

[00:46:09] And I do appreciate that while the group is around and they're all confronting her, Giles does make it a point to say, you know, Buffy's actions basically were ill advised, but understandable.

[00:46:25] And he doesn't embarrass her or kind of confront her with this until the group is gone. Right. And on one on one he expresses his disappointment. So I can appreciate that. I think he, he truly understands why she did it but that doesn't make him any less hurt by it.

[00:46:42] Yeah. And him, the way he delivers that speech to her is so much worse than if he had been emotional and yelling. Right. He just lays it out for her in like slightly angry, calm speech. And you can see on Buffy's face that she takes it to heart.

[00:47:04] And it's deep down inside of her she is hurt by that. And it's the same thing of like when a parent says to a kid like I'm not angry just disappointed. Like it's like, oh God that's worse. Like, oh, like, oh, you think I don't respect you.

[00:47:19] And you're right what I did was disrespectful and then, you know, that's going to eat her up.

[00:47:25] And she plays it brilliantly. Both of them play that scene brilliantly like you can see the shame register on Sarah Michelle Geller's face. And Anthony Stewart had looks truly hurt like it's something about his eyes.

[00:47:44] I don't know how he does, but both of them convey so much with their physicality in this scene that it just makes it that much more painful like you can take out the music in the background.

[00:47:56] And they would still be a very painful scheme to watch. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is, and you call this this cast was just amazing. They, I mean, they really are good. And, and they're given some good writing, most of the time, occasionally they don't.

[00:48:13] But, you know, for the most part everybody is really just plays their part well. And I think that's in my notes is just how good actors these all, all of them are.

[00:48:25] Not a look. Like a cop. Justice runs in her blood. I want you to focus on the tradition you're carrying on. That's our legacy. But when the line is blurred, I know how hard it is when your family is taken from you.

[00:48:38] Stay away. Just talk to me. Which side will she choose? Maybe you should reconsider the uniform and everything that it represents.

[00:48:46] I'd rather fight from inside it to make a change. Allegiance new series Wednesday. Watch free on CBC Jam.

[00:48:56] Why do you think it gets so hurt when Gwendolyn post tells her, Oh, they met without you. She leaves all the time. She's like, like, she doesn't think of her. Does she think of herself as part of the group or not. I don't understand that scene really confused me just a little bit.

[00:49:16] Because I can tell it. It was, you know, it was when Gwendolyn trying to manipulate her.

[00:49:23] Successfully. Why? Why is that successful? And how would she know that relationship? So, like, Buffy, I think that Faith is another person who has some deep, deep insecurities about being liked or loved.

[00:49:46] Right. She even talks about it earlier in the context of dating, right. She's like, Oh, I'm just a loser magnet. So I just get some.

[00:49:53] Steve the klepto hurt me. Steve the klepto hurt me. Oh, yeah.

[00:49:58] Then be loser klepto. I was like, Oh, Faith, me too. So I think that she has adopted this tough exterior to pretend she doesn't need other people and she's so independent and, you know, she's so tough.

[00:50:20] But she desperately wants a family and and she sees that Buffy has one, and she is doing the thing that people who have this kind of trauma or who are borderline personalities do where they're like, come close, go away, come close, go away.

[00:50:37] So it has to be on her terms. If the other person rejects her, then it hurts her to her core, but she often will reject people like before they get a chance to reject her.

[00:50:50] It's offensive. It's a trauma response, her into her fierce independence is, you know, based on all of these times throughout her life where she has either needed someone felt close to someone and has then been denied any sort of connection or protection.

[00:51:11] And I think what's great about faith and Buffy as characters is how they're, they almost mirror each other, and clearly we see Buffy and her reaction to faith and she seems to envy, face ability to just kind of be completely

[00:51:30] herself, put herself out there she's, you know, not self conscious she doesn't really have any sort of pressures at home any responsibilities or expectations put on her.

[00:51:45] Well, faith kind of envies Buffy's life and what Buffy has and the fact that she has that stability at home she has this close group of friends, and they even kind of counteract and show different types of slayers where faith is all about basically showing us how

[00:52:06] she got the power she's following any whim she has, she's drawn to that power of being a slayer as opposed to wanting to do the honor of respecting the power that she's given, whereas Buffy is, you know, kind of altruistic with her power and really sees it as she is saving the world and doing good.

[00:52:30] And there's just so much at play with faith's need for connection and that comes up later in the series, of course, but I feel, I really feel for faith in this episode, because she takes it to an extreme, of course.

[00:52:49] She just feels left out that I think that's it she feels left out. Yeah, and all of us have been there, where you're like, well, shit they're hanging out without me, like what can I do or why can't you trust me and she reveals a lot of herself to Buffy.

[00:53:08] And Buffy keeps things kind of close to the best Buffy doesn't tell faith about angels she doesn't get as, you know, vulnerable with faith as faith does with Buffy.

[00:53:20] And I think because of faith's delivery style of like, yeah, deadbeat loser, Cliptoe, like, I don't think anyone realizes how much of herself she's sharing because she does it in this like offhand, funny manner.

[00:53:36] But she really is opening up and becoming, she thinks close, like almost like a sister to Buffy. And, and it's important to her. So when Gwenlyn post says like, oh, something with Buffy and her friends, what faith says is I guess that's not me.

[00:53:52] And, and I think anybody who's not been invited to a party or to join a group of friends can, can identify with that moment of being like, I thought I was in the group and I'm not in the group.

[00:54:08] When she goes to to the bronze and and confront Zander.

[00:54:14] She's still kind of chill about it until it switches to the conversation about angel and she gets unnecessarily violent right away.

[00:54:24] But then, you know, he, he's kind of that's where, like, I go back and forth of Zander and I'm sure we all do is then when they find Giles in the library.

[00:54:38] You know, he's going to stay with Giles until the paramedics come. And he also is like, like, there's no bite marks or, you know, that I don't know this was angel. He does have rational thought and not just jealousy and anger in this moment.

[00:54:52] And at this point, faith has already gone off the handle like there's no stopping her with lots of I've, I've fault Zander so much more than faith in this instance because faith wasn't around for angel when he had a soul and then and jealous when he didn't.

[00:55:11] And as Zander knows, faith doesn't even really know Buffy that well at this point. But I think she is acting emotionally on feeling that betrayal feeling left out and feeling that Buffy is not, you know, who she thought she was, they weren't maybe as close as she thought.

[00:55:32] And face reaction is violence. Okay, he's a vampire. I'm going to kill him. It'll basically give her a little outlet for her anger. And that's it. But Zander knows that angel had saved people on a regular basis. He had helped out the Scoobies.

[00:55:51] He knows that Willow was doing the spell to reensole him. He seems to believe that it worked. And yet he is still like, can I come when faith wants to kill him and I'm just like, you know better than this man.

[00:56:07] Like, I just, that's a weird moment. And he also seems kind of sexually turned on by it. Like the local face and yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a real low point in the arc of Zander.

[00:56:20] Yeah, it really is. It's, it, the way he's relishing the idea of what is essentially murder right because slaying a vampire who's about to like hurt a human or who doesn't have a soul is really different from pre meditated like let's arm up and go to this person's house.

[00:56:38] And, and murder them no matter what it's not. Yeah. Well, I'm curious your guys thoughts on this aspect of the whole faith Zander Buffy angel thing.

[00:56:52] So at the beginning of this episode, you know, they're talking about Buffy and dating and she's like, well, I am going out with someone tonight. I don't know if you call it dating and then faith comes up and like puts her arm around her.

[00:57:06] Yeah, I mean, I think Eliza Dushku is just so sexy in general that she has amazing chemistry with anyone. But Doug Petrie has mentioned in DVD commentaries and interviews and books where he said he specifically put in that context of will they won't they as

[00:57:30] interested in Buffy are they sexually attracted to each other. And I have no problem believing that faith is if not by sexual at least very open sexually and open to exploring and experiencing, you know, what it would like to be with a woman.

[00:57:52] And, and I can see a little bit of jealousy in how she reacts to the angel situation, both in terms of friendship and possibly romantically if she did have any sort of feelings for Buffy that she wants to just get rid of angels.

[00:58:12] She could be jealous that Buffy spending time with him, and Buffy didn't share that part of herself with faith, and that could work on a lot of levels.

[00:58:22] Did you guys get any sort of subtext or when you watch the series in general, do you see that subtext between faith and Buffy.

[00:58:32] So absolutely and later later seasons there's going to be some moments some more moments like that. Oh yeah later episodes this season. So, yeah definitely saw it there at the beginning when she puts her arm around her they kind of they do the whole synchronized slaying thing.

[00:58:49] Kind of give a winking a nod to each other. Yeah, I can definitely see that. Yeah, it's unclear to me if it's sexual or romantic or just this kinship that they only can have with each other that faith is possessive of.

[00:59:08] But there are certainly a lot of Buffy faith shippers out there and a ton of Buffy faith fan fiction.

[00:59:17] And I mean, there are two incredibly gorgeous and interesting characters who wouldn't want to think about that and I feel like if this show has been on HBO, we would have gotten that.

[00:59:35] But because it was on the WB it had to be just subtext. I mean, remember at this point, having even having a tiny side character of Larry, be gay on the show was like groundbreaking.

[00:59:50] So, yeah, taking it seriously, taking it seriously, taking it as a serious character, not a, not a, what's the word?

[01:00:00] like, this is people I'm thinking of, not like a caricature. Yeah, like a caricature like, like, you know, Threes Company, the building manager. Oh, good Lord. There's all subtext there, but yeah, it was a caricature. So, yeah, that's definitely late 90s. Yeah. And I know Eliza Dushku has said before in interviews that she thinks faith is bisexual and had a thing for Buffy and she would play it that way. And that 100% comes across.

[01:00:30] Yeah. But it's just, I don't know, as part of me wishes that we could have gotten the show during a more

[01:00:39] progressive time to see how that could have played into things. But it's always underlying when I

[01:00:48] rewatch these episodes. I'm like, how much of that is really going on in Faith's head? How much of

[01:00:53] that is actually motivating any of her choices? And is she even aware if it's motivating

[01:00:59] her choices? But she's not the only one who made that decision, right? James Marsters has said numerous

[01:01:07] times that he plays Spike as being attracted to Buffy from Moment One. Yeah, that look he gives

[01:01:13] her in the bronze. And it definitely complicates their interactions because he's always calling

[01:01:19] her cutie and stuff, but then they still fight. It's interesting. So yeah, we get the faith version

[01:01:27] of that this season, where she is into Buffy for whatever reason, as a sister, as a friend,

[01:01:34] as a potential lover, as a fellow slayer. And she's a little possessive. And therefore,

[01:01:41] any rejection she feels coming from Buffy hurts a lot more. Like she doesn't care about Willow

[01:01:47] and Xander not wanting her in their group. Like that doesn't matter to her at all. I don't think

[01:01:53] she's even completely clear on who corety is, right? She wants to be included by Buffy,

[01:02:02] and she wants to be inside Buffy's world. We talked about this a few episodes ago,

[01:02:07] Single White Female. It's like, does she want to be with her or be her? Yeah. And it's all confused

[01:02:14] in her head. Well, she does compare herself a lot to Buffy. It seems especially throughout this season.

[01:02:22] But you know, Faith is kind of seen as reckless and she can't keep watchers. Her watchers keep dying

[01:02:29] or betraying her, turning evil. And she is not seen as the one who follows rules. Buffy is seen

[01:02:36] as like good slayer. You do what you're supposed to do. You follow the rules. You listen to your

[01:02:42] watcher. Which is so funny because, like, for the contrast we had was Kendra and Kendra was like

[01:02:48] the most woman we all follow her. And Buffy was the rebel. And I think it's very smart of the writers

[01:02:55] for the next slayer to be on the other side of Buffy so that we could see a spectrum.

[01:03:01] Because if Buffy had met another goody-two-shoes slayer, we wouldn't have gotten as much interesting

[01:03:07] character development as we do with Buffy this season. Right. Yeah. And it's like, what is it?

[01:03:13] What is it called? I think I may have brought this up before the idea of, I can't remember if it's

[01:03:22] Aristotle or some other philosopher, kind of moral means or like, Aristotle and I can't do it.

[01:03:31] There was ancelia where, yes, thank you. So the idea that there's two extremes and something

[01:03:42] in the middle, essentially. And, you know, there's being on time, there's being premature,

[01:03:49] and there's being late. With Buffy, she seems to embody the median in the middle. Where she is

[01:03:58] fairly well-rounded, she still has a life, she still has connections, she thinks about things

[01:04:05] other than her duty as a slayer, but her duty as a slayer is still one seen as a duty, like a

[01:04:11] calling that she's called to do. And she wants Giles to respect her. She wants to do that duty,

[01:04:17] whereas Faith is just super reckless with it. The power has kind of gone to her head. And then

[01:04:24] Kendra was almost militaristic about it, where it was her duty, she had been raised as a kid

[01:04:31] to, you know, be a slayer to fight. And I think part of this whole scene, this whole episode where

[01:04:40] Faith is reacting this strongly to Angel, is because it's kind of her seeing a chance to

[01:04:46] be the good one and do her duty and be the one like bad, bad vampire. He killed people, I kill him.

[01:04:53] That's what a slayer does. And it's there's just so much going on,

[01:04:57] on through the surface. And she's at this point, she's accepted Gwendolyn Post as her watcher and

[01:05:06] kind of wants to please her. Like she's, she's flipped from like whatever, all my watchers die

[01:05:13] to, you know, I'm Spartan and she's like taken in these things that Gwendolyn Post has said to her.

[01:05:20] And, you know, when she gets to Angel's, weird ass mansion, I'll never get over how weird that

[01:05:26] house is. There was a cup, there was a, there was a love seat set, sofa set.

[01:05:30] I know. In it. Like it, they just need to prop for somebody to get thrown through,

[01:05:36] because there's like a coffee table and a whole set up there. And I'm like, where did that come

[01:05:40] from? Yeah, when did Angel get furniture? But when, yeah, when when Faith gets to the mansion and

[01:05:48] Mrs. Post is like, you know, has been knocked to the ground. She's like, Mrs. Post, oh, I'm gonna

[01:05:54] kill you like it, it sends her into a new fury, right? It's like the anger she had over her first

[01:05:59] watcher being killed. She just like transferred it right over to Gwendolyn Post and she was,

[01:06:04] you know, she wasn't even dead. She was just knocked to the floor. But Faith was like,

[01:06:08] that's enough for me. I'm gonna kill Angel. I think she also wanted to please Gwendolyn Post

[01:06:16] in that moment. And that's why she was like, I say, I slay. And then Xander's like,

[01:06:21] can I come in that like gross, creepy way that he does? And that's a whole other level of betrayal

[01:06:28] that Faith feels. And clearly, you know, we'll talk about it later in the spoil section, but that is

[01:06:37] very important to Faith's storyline and character arc, that sense of betrayal that she feels in this

[01:06:44] episode. And one thing I do kind of love that fight scene between her and Buffy, the choreography

[01:06:52] is fantastic. But I love that the next day, or, you know, when we see them afterwards,

[01:06:58] I think it's the first time I remember seeing any sort of serious bruising or injury visible,

[01:07:05] because both of them are, you know, they're each other's match. They're that strong. And Buffy

[01:07:12] tries to reconcile with Faith, like she extends the olive branch. And again, we see this kind of,

[01:07:18] you know, trauma responsive independence from Faith, where she's just like, you know,

[01:07:24] I've got me. Right. And that's it. And it just it makes it so painful. I feel so much

[01:07:33] compassion for her. Yeah. She drives me nuts sometimes. But she's reckless and cruel,

[01:07:40] but she's she's deeply, deeply hurt as a little kid. And it just shines through in all of her

[01:07:49] actions. It's like PTSD, PTSD, PTSD, like a neon sign over her head. Yeah, yeah. Something else

[01:07:57] that we hadn't brought up yet. And I think this is now the second time in the season where

[01:08:02] Buffy has maybe not intentionally, but has caused the death of a human. Yeah.

[01:08:11] Yeah. When she cuts when she cuts a wooden post's arm off with the glove and then the lightning.

[01:08:16] Now I don't remember in Deadman's party was Pat killed before the mask on. So she was already dead.

[01:08:24] Okay. Okay. So that doesn't count then. So this is just the first the first time we've seen this.

[01:08:29] But they've definitely intentionally been kind of putting that theme

[01:08:34] and idea out there. Yeah, that sometimes humans could get killed as a subject of slaying. Yeah.

[01:08:41] And Gwendolyn Post, I mean, I don't think Buffy knew what was going to happen when she cut off the

[01:08:45] glove. And and Gwendolyn Post definitely brought that end upon herself. And I don't think Buffy

[01:08:53] has a moment of guilt about that particular. No, no, I didn't think so. I just I just wanted

[01:08:57] to bring it up to it's another one of those moments where we have the unintentional

[01:09:02] death of a human. Yeah, flanking it messy. And one thing I just I kind of love, you know,

[01:09:12] finding patterns and stuff like that. And I can't remember where this was first pointed out.

[01:09:20] But I know in TPN's Buffy Guide videos on YouTube, it's something that he regularly brings up about

[01:09:28] episode seven in the Buffyverse, how, you know, it's kind of like significant number five songs

[01:09:36] on Taylor Swift albums if anybody understands that reference. But the first six episodes,

[01:09:43] he puts it as kind of clear away the dramatic debris of the previous season and build the rocket

[01:09:50] for the upcoming arc. And then episode seven ignites that rocket and sets us off on the arc

[01:09:58] for the season. And if you look into, you know, episode seven of each season, it follows that

[01:10:04] pattern. It makes sense. The first six episodes are like act one. And then act two, it starts with

[01:10:11] episode seven and goes how long it goes. And then and then act three. So in this season,

[01:10:19] act three would probably begin with consequences. Yeah, I think that's good.

[01:10:27] But I just love it because when you look at this episode, when you rewatch it after,

[01:10:35] you know, having seen how the rest of the season plays out, you can find so many little, almost

[01:10:43] Easter eggs and plot points in there that become very relevant and important for the rest of the

[01:10:48] season. And that's just another reason why Buffy is wonderful, and why this show is still being

[01:10:54] talked about almost 30 years later, that writing and the thought behind it and the planning is just

[01:11:01] solid. I love it.

[01:11:05] I have a couple of little things to talk about. How are you guys doing on stuff?

[01:11:14] I think, let me see why I say to Charles knocked out again. Oh, the weapons cabinet was just open.

[01:11:24] Yeah, you wouldn't want to lock that in a high school.

[01:11:27] That was just a quick, quick one there for me. Yeah, I think that's about just like ranting about

[01:11:40] the curse and explaining what the curse is and what it is. And then like, I did, you know, other

[01:11:47] than the Buffy's face. That's your lawyer brain. You're like, no, there are rules. You're not listening.

[01:11:52] No, I probably have like two full pages of notes explaining the curse and citing my sources.

[01:11:59] I got a little carried away. But you fell on his lips. That was,

[01:12:07] it's a good, that's a good line. That's great. A lot of good little, little zingers. I liked

[01:12:15] when he said, an excuse. I think lots of dead people actually constitute a reason,

[01:12:22] another example of him not being able to separate and jealous and angel. But that's fine.

[01:12:30] But I did. I, there was one little, so I guess we are on our tiny notes at this point. But there

[01:12:36] was one moment that I just loved. And I don't know, I'm sure it was partially an intentional

[01:12:41] wink when Buffy is talking to Angel about Logos. And he's like, Logos. She's like, yeah, some demon

[01:12:49] looking for himself. Demon looking for some all powerful thing in the bob. And I got to stop

[01:12:54] him before he unleashes unholy havoc. And it's another Tuesday night. Sunnydale.

[01:12:59] Yes. Because like, obviously Buffy at this point is airing on Tuesday nights. So that's a fun little

[01:13:06] wink. And the fact that it's true. Like it is just another typical Tuesday for Buffy. And that kind

[01:13:14] of theme comes up hilariously in the Zepo too. Yeah. So I just, I love the little moments like

[01:13:21] that where they're kind of winking. Yeah. It comes up in season six. Also in the Halloween episode

[01:13:28] of season six. Oh, I love that episode. A bunny rabbit. No. There's another, there's another

[01:13:40] podcast that I listened to that is in season five or six. No, that's yeah, they're in season

[01:13:47] six now. They're in the, I think, or five. They're a little, they're a little ahead of you. Yeah.

[01:13:53] But they don't do, they don't do any feedback or anything like that. Are they just, yeah. I mean,

[01:13:59] the conversation with our listeners is such an integral part of my love for doing this podcast.

[01:14:04] It's like it. It's like a feedback loop of love. We're all like, I love Buffy. I love Buffy.

[01:14:10] It's just like grows and grows and grows. I saw, you know, that thing that's going around the

[01:14:17] internet of this format of videos. It's like, we're, you know, women in America. Of course, we eat.

[01:14:23] And then it's like a list of things. There's nobody asked like, we're Buffy, the vampire slayer

[01:14:29] fans. Of course we, and then everybody's filling it in on the internet. Right. That's fantastic.

[01:14:34] My contributions were, of course, we're going through the motions, walking through the part.

[01:14:40] Nothing seems to penetrate our hearts. And I got a lot of good feedback on that one.

[01:14:45] That's fantastic. It's a, it's a funny, it's a funny idea. And if any listeners want to send in

[01:14:50] theirs, I'd love to hear them because it's just, it's hilarious. Oh, there are a couple other bullet

[01:14:57] point notes that I scrolled down from my diatribe and realized I put down. One thing, in particular,

[01:15:07] that strikes me in this episode. And, and you know, the previous ones is that Buffy Angel scenes

[01:15:14] have such a different feel and tone to them. That's almost tangible compared to earlier

[01:15:23] criticisms. And I think it's one obviously in the writing and then how David Boryana's and Sarah

[01:15:29] Michelle Geller play it off. And instead of, you know, this building tension where it's like, oh,

[01:15:36] are there in love? Like, are they going to get together? What is it where it's unresolved?

[01:15:42] It's essentially just unresolvable tension at this point, because they are both so aware of the

[01:15:49] dangers that could happen if they allow themselves to be together. And yet, Angel is still not wearing

[01:15:57] a shirt. I know that's for us. Angel, put on a shirt. There's a strap in angel. Come on.

[01:16:02] Oh, I mean, they were doing Tai Chi and sexy Tai Chi, apparently. Yeah, he gets very sweaty as

[01:16:08] a vampire that should not have any hydration in his body whatsoever. But that's fine. Yeah.

[01:16:15] Yeah, that's okay. It's there. I've never seen sexy Tai Chi in real life. I've seen lots of

[01:16:21] people doing Tai Chi in parts that's really popular. And I've never seen anybody do it.

[01:16:27] Do that hand move. It was really beautiful. I liked the way that scene was very monochromatic.

[01:16:32] Both of them are wearing black. Buffy, for once, doesn't have her girly colors, her sparkly hair

[01:16:39] clips, all of that stuff. She's just very simply dressed, black, top, black headband. You know,

[01:16:45] the mansion is all concrete gray, ugly, ugly, ugly mansion. But it, it, it puts the two of them

[01:16:54] in stark contrast and really forces you to focus on the sexual tension, right? And they're moving

[01:17:01] in synchronicity. And it's, I'm very impressed at anybody that can make Tai Chi sexy. That's all.

[01:17:08] Yeah. They, they accomplished that. Yeah. That is really beautiful. And I don't blame Buffy for

[01:17:17] wanting to, you know, fold herself into angel strong arms and, and bake out with his shirtless

[01:17:23] self in that moment. He's, he's very beautiful, as we've discussed. Yeah. They have intense chemistry.

[01:17:30] And it's really beautiful. I love that the, behind the scenes, apparently, they were real

[01:17:37] pranksters to each other. And like Sarah Michelle Gellar would do things like eat onions before they

[01:17:42] had a kissing. Yeah. And so now whenever I see them kissing, I'm like, I wonder if this is an onion

[01:17:48] kiss. Right. Yeah. I've read that. Or garlic. Yeah.

[01:17:54] Yeah. Sure. Just something nasty or. Yeah. It's just, even if it's not nasty, just any strong

[01:18:00] flavor is like off putting in, in a kiss moment. Um, well, it's pretty funny. And I do love,

[01:18:09] I'm sorry, go on. I was gonna say, I love when Buffy does fight the Lagos demon, right? And then,

[01:18:16] and then one boy grabs his own axe off his back. And she's like, yes. And then she beheads him.

[01:18:22] And then she's like, child, we'll be happy. And she will just like walk out of the cemetery,

[01:18:26] leaving this like body and head there. And I've been wondering, like, who cleans that up? Are

[01:18:32] there scavenger demons that come and eat the other demons or like just regular scavenger animals?

[01:18:39] Are there going to be like rats and raccoons and like, you know, coyotes more unsuspecting grounds

[01:18:45] keeper? And like, that demon had all kinds of armor on. So scavengers aren't going to eat the

[01:18:50] armor. So is this like cemetery like lawn mower guy gonna like come across this like pile of like

[01:18:57] bones and armor and a separate head and just have to deal with it? Or does he, you know,

[01:19:04] do they call the the police? And we know that's, you know, questionable.

[01:19:09] The police have sunny, deep, deep, deep. Yeah, I would love to know what goes on with,

[01:19:17] because vampires, it's easy. They just back to dust. Yeah. And they're close. And they're close.

[01:19:22] Yeah. Yeah. Somehow. Somehow that works.

[01:19:29] So that fight scene, that fight scene is really good. And also it shows us how

[01:19:36] how Buffy again, Buffy and Faith are very different in that. And we saw when when Buffy and Kendra

[01:19:45] would fight as well, you know, Faith didn't defeat this demon. She didn't think to grab the

[01:19:50] axe off the off his back and why wasn't he using his axe? I don't know. But that doesn't matter.

[01:19:57] She doesn't have thoughtful or resourceful. She's she's all about the brute force, right? She goes

[01:20:03] straight on like she saw that logos from behind. She could have had every advantage. And instead

[01:20:09] she kicks him and starts punching him. It's like, no, grab the axe and behead him in like one movement.

[01:20:15] Right. She is not a tactical thinker in any way. No. Yeah.

[01:20:22] Dries me little nuts. But you know, she wouldn't be Faith without it. So I do have to

[01:20:30] Giles's comments when he says that, you know, they swear there was a memo about

[01:20:37] two years ago, she was just yeah. But it also, you know, calls back to what we've already seen

[01:20:47] that he's pretty isolated from the West rest of the watchers council. And you know, we saw that

[01:20:53] in Faith Hope and Trick when Faith shows up because she says, you know, her watchers off at some

[01:20:58] retreat in the cotswalls and Giles was not invited. Right. And he's so left out and sad. Yeah.

[01:21:04] Yeah. I feel so bad for him. He's like, oh, they used to kayak. I just love a good kayak.

[01:21:11] I think my favorite like Gwendolyn post Giles moment is when, you know, she is over at his

[01:21:20] apartment and she's kind of criticizing him that Buffy doesn't really seem to listen to him and

[01:21:27] he doesn't really have much control over her. And he's just like, this is like, I can assure you

[01:21:32] that Buffy is both dedicated and industrious and I am in complete control of my slayer.

[01:21:38] And then Xander bursts in and he's like, Giles, we have a big problem. It's Buffy and Gwendolyn

[01:21:43] just kind of looks and Giles just like, you excuse us. And he looks, it's just such perfect

[01:21:49] comedic timing. It makes me giggle every single time. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's really good.

[01:21:56] It's so Xander too to burst in and start talking without even looking around. Yeah, just no regard.

[01:22:03] All right, cool. Like you don't know who's in the room. That's what else I was going to ask you

[01:22:10] about. So that scene that you were talking about earlier, Steve, with Xander, you know, kind of giving

[01:22:18] Willow a tension headache massage and it turns into them making out. And then Giles interrupts it.

[01:22:25] I have seen differing opinions on this throughout, you know, the fandom a few times where some people

[01:22:32] are convinced that Giles saw them and ignored it. And other people are convinced that he didn't

[01:22:39] see them. He truly was buried in a book. How did you guys read it? That's that's what I took the

[01:22:45] second time watching it was that he was just buried in that book and didn't even notice what

[01:22:50] they were doing. Yeah, I don't think you saw that. I see it. And when I saw other people like pretty

[01:22:55] consistently saying that he saw them and just ignored it, I was like, I didn't get that at all.

[01:23:03] I want to know how many other people I don't know if he would have reacted if he had seen it

[01:23:11] in the moment, because he probably would have been like, oh, it's teenage or stuff. It's not

[01:23:15] really my issue except that he might have said, if he hadn't already found the information he wanted,

[01:23:22] I feel like if he had seen them in that moment, he would have been like back to work.

[01:23:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, scolding them. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I don't think he does seem to really

[01:23:32] have a distaste for Xander. So I would expect him to say something snarky. If I just feel like

[01:23:41] I would not, if I were a adult in Giles position, and I knew the dynamics of this group, I don't

[01:23:51] know if I could resist saying something. If I walked in on a moment like that, I wouldn't want to get

[01:23:58] involved, but it would be hard to resist. I think what I would have done is waited until I could talk

[01:24:05] to Willow separately and privately. Yeah, she is the rational one and more rational. You know,

[01:24:12] get the story from her, talk, talk her through it, and then maybe talk to Xander separately and

[01:24:17] privately as well. I don't think I would have said anything in that moment. Just because as a person,

[01:24:22] I hate confrontation. And secondly, I process things slowly. So I would have had to be like,

[01:24:28] Oh, I see that. That is a thing I have to think about. I'll just pretend it didn't happen until

[01:24:32] I'm ready. Like that's probably a good point. That's how I would probably take me a second to

[01:24:38] register. Yeah, I just, I think I think he would have, he would have said something like, Oh,

[01:24:43] or you know, there would have been a there would have been an acknowledgement. Yeah, if he actually

[01:24:48] did. There's no indication that he saw them. He's like not even looking at them when he's like,

[01:24:52] we're all done here. Like he's just he's in his own thing. He is again, he's so off-balance because

[01:24:58] of Gwendolyn Post. There's he's not seeing the environment around him. He's hyper focused on,

[01:25:03] you know, trying to show her up. At this point, it's him and his slayer versus her and her slayer

[01:25:09] in his head, right? So he's like, that's true. He's all wrapped up. Right. Okay, that makes sense.

[01:25:16] I feel better now. That's what that's what podcasting is for. Exactly. Oh, I thought it

[01:25:25] also might be helpful to just I probably should have said this towards the beginning to wrap up

[01:25:30] what Angel did exactly as Angelus throughout that time. Oh, well, Cordelia, obviously, when

[01:25:41] when she makes that point that Angel without a soul is more interested in hurting Buffy's friends.

[01:25:48] That's what made me go dig this up. So Angel basically assaults and threatens Willow in innocence.

[01:25:56] He attacks Xander straight up in Bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. And then obviously,

[01:26:03] he kills Ginny Callender in passion. He physically tackles Cordelia and killed by death. Like,

[01:26:10] he gets physical with her. I don't think she's the intended, you know, target at that point in time,

[01:26:16] but that must have been terrifying for her. And then in obviously in becoming part two is when he

[01:26:22] tortures Giles. So Oz obviously cares about Willow and all of these other people. All of them have

[01:26:30] actually been affected individually in some way by Angelus. So it's just when I went back to

[01:26:37] fish and the creepy drawing of joy. Yes. And he killed or he sired Teresa,

[01:26:45] yep. And he bit gauge and go fish. Oh, yeah. So their classmates have been targeted. They've

[01:26:56] been targeted. And once I went back and was like, Oh, yeah, he did a lot of shit. Yeah.

[01:27:01] I can completely understand where they are coming from. Yeah, he was terrifying. And it was

[01:27:09] escalating. And they had every reason to believe that he would not stop until he was killed.

[01:27:15] And that it was only going to get worse and worse and scarier and scarier. So, you know,

[01:27:20] their fear and anxiety in this scene is very well earned. And not your typical high school

[01:27:26] teenage problem at all. Yeah, if I had to have any interventions for my high school friends,

[01:27:33] it would have been alcohol related or well, there was definitely one or two relationship

[01:27:43] related ones. It would have been like, yeah, that person is abusive to you. And we all see it.

[01:27:49] Although I don't know if I would have had the right vocabulary for that back then.

[01:27:53] Yeah, that's true. I would have just been like, she's mean. Yeah, you deserve better.

[01:28:00] How'd it look like a cop justice runs in her blood. I want you to focus on the tradition

[01:28:10] you're carrying on. That's our legacy. But when the line is blurred, I know how hard it is when

[01:28:16] your family is taken from you. Stay away. Just talk to me. Which side will she choose?

[01:28:21] Maybe you should reconsider the uniform and everything that it represents.

[01:28:26] I'd rather fight from inside it to make a change. Allegiance, new series, Wednesday. Watch free

[01:28:32] on CBC Jam. Okay, guys, it's time for some trivia. I will get us started with, we hear Faith's

[01:28:43] trademark saying five by five again in this episode a few times. Faith repeatedly uses this term five

[01:28:48] by five, usually to signify she's okay. Five by five is a military term used over radio communication

[01:28:55] to signify loud and clear signal strength and clarity. I actually knew this. Steve, you probably

[01:29:00] knew this too. Right? Yeah, yeah, we use that and the alphanumeric alphabet. Military is a little

[01:29:10] different than like police and firemen. But that's another one of those things that I still hold on

[01:29:17] to. I do the alpha bravo, Charlie Delta, echo, box trot, golf, indigo, Juliet, kilo.

[01:29:27] L is Lima. Gosh. Oh, now, now I'm on the spot Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec.

[01:29:37] S is Sierra Tango. So, yeah, Sierra Tango uniform, Victor, whiskey.

[01:29:53] Hello, what's your what's why Yankee zebra zebra zebra zebra.

[01:30:00] Zebra is Zulu is Mille Jairman. See I think I only knew well I knew some of them but primarily

[01:30:07] whiskey tango fox trot. Oh yeah that was a movie a few years ago. Yeah yeah I remember so many

[01:30:14] people being like why would they call it that and I'm like oh my gosh yeah kind of like see you next

[01:30:21] Tuesday it's like read between the lines a little you'll get there. Like like like Phubar like it's

[01:30:27] another movie that we used quite a bit in the military. Okay so the the lightning that shoots

[01:30:35] from the glove of Mina Guggen was drawn from a frame bump frame by an artist per JW's request

[01:30:45] so that was actually drawn in there. That's cool. I love that. It's like cool animation.

[01:30:51] Yeah you know I I have a slight criticism and your your podcast isn't the only one that does this.

[01:30:57] When they complain about the CGI I want to go it was the late 90s like give her a little

[01:31:03] bad CGI. For the for the time it was great. Yeah yeah that's interesting without the lightning

[01:31:11] though is drawn. I think it adds to the fun like kind of campy. Usually the bad CGI is only or the

[01:31:20] sort of out of date CGI is only in like yeah the big action sequences where there's like

[01:31:26] lately it's been snake like demons and yeah it's more funny than anything else. It's

[01:31:32] because we do know that it was it was new technology then but when there was that bad CGI

[01:31:39] deer on the walking dead it had no excuse. No excuses because they could have just photo

[01:31:45] composited an actual deer. I remember thinking and I will not go off on this tangent I would

[01:31:51] just say one thing. I remember thinking that deer was like a hallucination by one of them

[01:31:56] because of how bad and fuzzy it was. Yeah I was like huh what are they on drugs? Did they find mushrooms?

[01:32:02] Like what is going on? So you know Buffy Buffy gets a pass. Buffy does it well.

[01:32:09] Our other fun fact is this was the first episode written by Doug Petrie and according to him the

[01:32:16] glove of minagon was originally supposed to be a demonic falconers glove which I remember seeing

[01:32:23] you know that image of Gwendolyn Post kind of holding it up and thinking it looked like a

[01:32:29] you know a falconers glove and he described that when you put it on and raise your arm this huge

[01:32:35] dark cloud would burst through the ceiling and take the form of a bird that spits fire.

[01:32:42] So that was what they originally wanted and he said this was determined to be an

[01:32:48] unfeasible and unfilmal idea probably because of the state of CGI capabilities at that time

[01:32:55] but he did later use that exact concept in the graphic novel Ring of Fire. That would have been

[01:33:01] really cool but it probably would have looked bad in the late 90s and I hope that we get to see

[01:33:07] it someday because it sounds awesome. Yeah for sure. I want a falconers glove I want to be able to

[01:33:14] something. It would come in handy actually when I'm playing with my cat because he goes full

[01:33:18] cloth. Yes. Oh smart. We used to use the fireplace gloves to play with our cats when we were kids.

[01:33:26] Like those big shearling fireproof gloves they were perfect. I usually just roll up my sleeve over

[01:33:32] my hand and yeah that's not enough. I wrap a natural rug around my hand now like a little rug.

[01:33:40] This brings us to the moment in the episode when I ask the question we all know the answer to but

[01:33:46] that's not why we ask it. Does it still slay Steve? What do you think? Oh absolutely absolutely.

[01:33:55] Carol? Yep I would agree. It's a great episode. It's not you know one of my all-time favorites

[01:34:02] but it is fantastically done and it sets up so much for the rest of the season and the series

[01:34:10] and the series of Angel so I love it. Definitely still slays. I agree. I think it has so many

[01:34:17] great small moments in it. So much character development and it gives us just so much to work

[01:34:25] with as we move forward with Faith who is one of my favorite characters of all time so yes it

[01:34:31] still slays. So we don't usually have a news segment because the show is 30 years old but

[01:34:40] we have a little or 25 years old. We have a little bit of news today not great news but news.

[01:34:47] Okay. Yeah I'll start. Hinton Battle a three-time Tony winner and the original The Wiz actor died

[01:34:55] at 67 years old after a lengthy illness. He was at LA's Cedar Sinai Medical Center and he played

[01:35:04] the scarecrow in The Wiz and Buffy fans will know him as sweets the musical demon from

[01:35:11] the iconic season six episode of Buffy once more with Feeling. He had an absolutely beautiful singing

[01:35:17] voice. He did some soft shoe dance and he really made a huge impression. I was sad to hear that he

[01:35:26] had passed. He was captivating you know especially as the scarecrow. I tried to put in a little bit

[01:35:34] of positive news after some sad and for those of you that aren't on Instagram Sarah Michelle

[01:35:44] Geller and David Boryana's kind of shared a sweet little moment reflecting on one of their best

[01:35:51] episodes together of Buffy. So David Boryana shared a picture and I won't go into detail but I encourage

[01:35:58] you to look it up because it is slightly spoilery for an episode later in season three and it's a

[01:36:04] really nice moment so I don't want to ruin that for anybody that has not seen it. I don't know if

[01:36:09] anybody is listening to us that has seen Buffy but just in case but it is very sweet. He posted it

[01:36:15] and Sarah Michelle Geller commented on it and if you do want to see it we can put the link to

[01:36:21] the article about it in the show notes and then you can check out David Boryana's Instagram and it's

[01:36:27] @imdborianas. There have been increasing rumors that there's a Buffy reboot happening. I have no

[01:36:40] idea whether or not to take them seriously. I found this one article that was like, well Sarah

[01:36:46] Michelle Geller's wolf show got canceled so she's free maybe they'll get her and I'm like she's

[01:36:51] already said a million times she's not going to get back. I don't know I don't want to get my hopes

[01:36:56] up until there is something more concrete. That's the thing and I got I got my hopes up looking up

[01:37:01] news articles this week because there were some from like a day ago or two days ago but it was all

[01:37:07] somehow reformatting or reposting the original comments that Dolly Parton made a business insider.

[01:37:17] Yeah and I was like look at all these articles and I was like damn it they're all the same.

[01:37:20] It's one article. Yeah but I would watch we're just throwing that out in the universe.

[01:37:28] There is a huge fan base that would watch and the trick would be the tone and trying to recapture

[01:37:36] that wittiness but for a modern audience and I don't know how the campiness would go over it's

[01:37:46] it would be a really tricky thing to reboot but of course the fan base would support it.

[01:37:50] Yeah I don't know about how Gen Z would respond or Gen Alpha especially with the JW stuff that's

[01:37:58] he would have to be not involved I think that's the only way it could move forward he'd have to be

[01:38:04] like either 100% not involved or buried in the background. Yeah it's a good thing I took my ADHD

[01:38:11] medicine this morning so I can filter my thoughts before they could become words because I almost

[01:38:17] said a few things about JW in that moment but we all know how we feel about that.

[01:38:26] How'd it look? Like a cop. Justice runs in her blood. I want you to focus on the tradition

[01:38:35] you're carrying on that's our legacy but when the line is blurred I know how hard it is when

[01:38:40] your family is taken from you. Stay away. Just talk to me. Which side will she choose?

[01:38:46] Maybe you should reconsider the uniform and everything that it represents. I'd rather fight

[01:38:51] from inside it to make a change. Allegiance new series Wednesday watch free on CBC Jam.

[01:38:58] Say are you guys feeling thirsty at all do you want to go to the bronze and get a drink?

[01:39:07] Always. Alright and blooming onions we'll get some blooming onions oh man that sounds so good

[01:39:13] right now. Things of bronze. Steve why don't you read the first part of Becky's feedback.

[01:39:21] Good night okay this is from Facebook from Becky she says hello all thoughts on season three

[01:39:29] episode seven well before I get to the episode some thoughts on the last pod I loved the rock

[01:39:36] my BFF and I used to get together and watch wrestling twice a week she was a stone cold Steve

[01:39:43] Austin fan I was I and the rock that's me Steve was a Steve. And the rock was my man truly the most

[01:39:52] electrifying man in sports entertainment. Also Cara mentioned Celine Dion's The Power of Love

[01:39:59] song I remember when McDonald's in the late 90s gave out many CDs I got got one and that song

[01:40:09] was on it and I fell in love with that song and swore to use it on my wedding day well fast forward

[01:40:18] to 2013 and I talked to my guy into letting that be the song we danced to in our reception.

[01:40:25] Nine News Music was and is still the best decade of music in my opinion okay on the episode that

[01:40:33] has to stop for a second and make a comment does everyone know that that is actually a cover

[01:40:37] of an air supply song I did not I didn't know I think it's I think it's it's not air supply it's

[01:40:44] uh it's an air supply it's it's a cover though the the power of love was was done many many years

[01:40:49] ago I think it was air supply so I may have to look that up but yeah do you want me to go on?

[01:40:56] We can take turns oh it is it is air supply you're right thank you oh sweet you're quicker than I am

[01:41:03] I'll pick up so Becky goes on to say I loved the faces of everyone when Mrs. Post arrives she put

[01:41:12] Ms. Post which is hilarious she makes such a point of being Mrs. Post I'm sure that's the type of

[01:41:18] when Mrs. Post arrives I hope it was intentional because I love it it's really funny especially

[01:41:22] Giles also I don't trust her she seems fishy faith's line I have this problem with authority they

[01:41:28] kind of end up dead was great as well as Buffy's interesting lady can we kill her that was a good

[01:41:35] line but Buffy's bomb beanie was adorable I think we're entering the time when bedazzling became a

[01:41:42] big thing I think I think you're right about that Sarah Michelle Geller looks so pretty in the scene

[01:41:46] where she's doing what I think is Tai Chi with angel also angel still has no shirt

[01:41:51] just like last episode I love how these two act out the romantic tension still lingering

[01:41:57] between them oh wait angel does finally get a shirt lol is it just me or does angel look

[01:42:03] constipated in most of his scenes this episode I get broody but his face looks like he's in pain

[01:42:09] the whole time cute moment when Buffy and Faith were patrolling together and Faith is asking

[01:42:14] Buffy's love asking about Buffy's love life and Faith says I've had my share of losers but you

[01:42:18] bonked the undead boy boy really funny hard not diving deep into Willow and Xander making

[01:42:26] out because I still am not a fan of the storyline even though I know it's important for later I

[01:42:31] totally forgot Xander was the one to discover angel is still alive I have a love hate relationship

[01:42:36] with Xander he and the rest of the gang has every right to be disappointed and upset but I hate

[01:42:41] his delivery it's always coming across as holier than now and he has no right to act as if he's

[01:42:46] better than her especially when he's keeping his own pretty big secret I yelled at my tv she kind

[01:42:52] of had to kill angel because of you jerk um intervention time did any of you watch the show

[01:43:01] intervention I actually never did maybe I should I appreciate Giles defending Buffy in front of

[01:43:08] the group but expressing his disappointment in private his speech was rough but honest and

[01:43:12] well said seeing Giles disappointed reminds me of how my mom used to tell me she was disappointed

[01:43:17] in me after I messed up I always felt so bad hmm Giles and Buffy have such a beautiful father

[01:43:24] daughter relationship. L.O.L. at Willow rambling on about secrets she was so cute when patrolling

[01:43:29] with Buffy and is pouring her heart out I loved it when she was about to tell Buffy what's been

[01:43:34] going on Buffy I have to tell you something there's a demon behind you I can't imagine anyone other

[01:43:41] than Alison being able to pull off that role another great Willow moment was when she told Xander

[01:43:45] shut up and help me you go girl okay Carrie you want to pick it up yes uh poor Giles getting

[01:43:54] hit in the head again pretty badass moment when Buffy stops faith from killing angel their fight

[01:44:00] scene was epic it was well choreographed and well executed Ms. Post I'm thinking it's not a typo

[01:44:06] at this point yeah it seems Becky let us know she said Ms. Post is smacking everyone upside the

[01:44:14] head I laughed out loud when she said faith a word of advice you're an idiot I found it interesting

[01:44:20] to see super strong faith get called out I think it was a great idea to have this woman show up for

[01:44:26] faith and faith being so blinded by what happened with her last watcher that she can't see that the

[01:44:32] situation in front of her possibly is not what it seems also her feeling left out when they don't

[01:44:39] include her in the meeting was well done by the writers continuing to cause reasons for faith to

[01:44:45] lose her trust in the gang this is kind of spoilery just FYI setting up her getting close to the mayor

[01:44:54] and then she said aww angel saving willow and Zander won me over again with this response to

[01:45:00] Buffy asking if they were okay I like him one minute and can't stand him the next

[01:45:06] very mature how he explained why he got angry what does he say I went postal after seeing them

[01:45:12] kissing yeah um and she said I again got really excited when she asked how she's doing and faith

[01:45:19] responds five by five a great saying and a very important phrase later on her favorite quotes or

[01:45:27] when Zander is describing everything that's happened Oz says sounds like I missed a lot of fun

[01:45:32] Zander says then we're telling it wrong and when everyone is forgiving Buffy and Cordelia chimes in

[01:45:41] I don't just for the record trust Buffy wouldn't call this the best episode but I do think it still

[01:45:49] slays as it does a great job of moving the story forward a bit after last week's just playing fun

[01:45:55] episode super excited to have Spike back next week until then have a great week grr argh

[01:46:03] thank you Becky thank you Becky Becky sent a follow-up email and it's kind of personal so

[01:46:13] I'm going to read it because she gave us permission she says hi I already sent my feedback for season

[01:46:19] three episode seven so sending a follow-up email I'm listening to the band candy podcast and I'm

[01:46:24] at the point where you're discussing finding a clear identity and it got me thinking about my

[01:46:29] teenage years I am biracial my birth mother is white and my bio dad is black I was adopted as a

[01:46:35] baby by two amazing people glad to hear that with them it's the opposite my mom is black and my

[01:46:40] dad is white my dad moved us to his hometown in east Tennessee called Elizabethton where my

[01:46:46] brothers who are not adopted and I when my brothers who are not adopted and I were very young beautiful

[01:46:51] place but not the best place to grow up as a mixed kid we grew up in a predominantly white

[01:46:56] neighborhood and went to a predominantly white school we weren't rich but we did have money and

[01:47:01] had nice things most of my friends growing up were white because there weren't a lot of black kids

[01:47:07] in our area or at school I didn't always feel like I fit in with them because though I am mixed my

[01:47:13] features and skin color are more from my birth father's genes I was the butt of a lot of jokes

[01:47:18] sorry I just lost my place and received quite a bit of ugly from many this makes me very sad

[01:47:25] Becky and I'm sorry that happened to you yeah um I won't go into what words were used but you get

[01:47:31] the picture I think we can all guess what kind of mean words people might have said to you I

[01:47:36] couldn't go to sleepovers at friends houses because their parents didn't want me there etc it was

[01:47:42] tough what I found even tougher is how I was treated by the black kids at school I can remember

[01:47:47] countless times sitting at lunch and would have someone come over and make fun of how I wore my

[01:47:51] hair or who I was hanging out with how I quote acted like a white girl etc and that I thought I

[01:47:57] was too good to hang out with my quote own kind needless to say I had a difficult time with finding

[01:48:03] my identity as I didn't really fit in with anyone I was very confused for a long time

[01:48:08] and ended up feeling a lot of shame about the color of my skin therapy helped and I am now a

[01:48:14] confident person who is comfortable with all the parts of who I am thank goodness random email I

[01:48:19] know but that discussion on the pod made me think about things and I thought I'd share and I'm fine

[01:48:23] if you want to share this as well thanks Becky um thank you Becky that is a really moving story

[01:48:30] and brings up a huge issue that we don't have the resources to cover on this podcast but the fact

[01:48:37] that kids of mixed backgrounds often feel like they don't belong in either culture I have this on a

[01:48:44] much smaller level because my mother is a piscopalian Protestant my father is was Jewish and I always

[01:48:55] felt like I wasn't really either and because I grew up in a military family like I was saying

[01:49:02] earlier we also just weren't normal when we moved back to like the regular United States and I went

[01:49:07] to a regular public school I always felt like a weirdo I didn't fit in with anyone I wasn't one

[01:49:14] of these we moved to a small town where people had all known each other since kindergarten and like

[01:49:20] half the school the their OBGYN when they were born was my friend Sarah's dad like it was a

[01:49:26] really small community and I was the weirdo until like 11th grade like I just I was not part of any

[01:49:35] of their memories and I didn't know like how to be a New Englander and I don't ski and like it was

[01:49:41] it was weird and it was difficult and I only started to feel like I found a community when I

[01:49:47] started to hang out with groups of artists who were like we don't care where you came from we're

[01:49:52] just making stuff so yeah it's I think it's getting easier for kids of mixed background just

[01:49:58] because there are more of them now and there's a there's more acknowledgement of this as an issue

[01:50:06] well and it's why you know I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face that this is why representation

[01:50:15] actually matters and why diversity is so important and exposing your kids to that at a young age to

[01:50:25] know that it's normal for people to have differences in appearance and culture and you know in any way

[01:50:34] and you know I'm so I can't imagine what that must have been like for you Becky I truly don't have a

[01:50:43] point of reference for it but I just you know I hope that we are making progress in the right

[01:50:51] direction and that we continue to make progress in the right direction because it's just it makes

[01:50:59] my blood boil thinking about you know these kids yes that is kids are cruel when they see people

[01:51:06] that are different than them they're cruel but a lot of that starts at home and starts with what

[01:51:13] they know and what they're exposed to and those adults who you mentioned not wanting you to sleep

[01:51:19] over to be at parties like that's disgusting and I'm glad that you were able to go to therapy and

[01:51:28] you know find your confidence and be comfortable with who you are because we love you around here

[01:51:33] and we are very happy to have you as a listener and for trusting us with a story that vulnerable and

[01:51:41] for allowing us to share that on the podcast I think it's important for people to hear

[01:51:46] hey you guys hang on a second because I think there was one more piece of feedback that came in

[01:51:51] just this morning let me go to Facebook and check and I haven't pulled up if you want me to go

[01:51:56] ahead and read it Jolene did leave some feedback thank you Jolene we love it as she said so many

[01:52:05] mixed emotions in this one I go from hating Zander for not listening to Buffy and getting faith wound

[01:52:11] up enough to go and kill Angel to softening a bit when he realizes there's no bites on Giles so he

[01:52:17] tries to keep faith away but then I hate him again for the thing with Willow. Cordelia when Zander

[01:52:24] says he trusts Buffy just for the record I don't and she's got a laugh crying emoji that was a pretty

[01:52:30] good moment we love a direct courty moment uh Giles handles finding out about Angel and Buffy

[01:52:37] hiding him really well especially as it was him who lost the most through Angelus and good old

[01:52:45] Willow trying to see it from Buffy's side even if it is through guilt I know I've said I'm not

[01:52:51] Faith's biggest fan in previous episodes but I really feel for her in this one she's clearly been

[01:52:57] let down by her mom her watcher also female was killed and she blames herself and then her new

[01:53:04] watcher also female breaks her trust again that line faith a word of advice you're an idiot is

[01:53:11] awful and you can see the pain in Faith's face when she realizes she's been fooled that's true

[01:53:17] Eliza Dushcope didn't do that really well um she said don't want to get too spoilery so spoiler

[01:53:24] alert but you can see the foundations here for what happens towards the later part of this series

[01:53:30] favorite lines in this one Gwen saying Lagos will be headed for the cemetery Giles there is more than

[01:53:37] one in Sunnydale and Gwen says I see how many and Giles says 12 within the city limits yeah and

[01:53:46] she said I don't know why that just always makes me laugh and yeah that's because it's absurd

[01:53:52] you're 12 in Sunnydale oh man Sunnydale the town that constantly like shrinks and grows

[01:54:00] yeah that's all good thank you Jolene that means that possible thank you so much

[01:54:06] all right that is the end of the main section of the podcast thank you to all the people who sent

[01:54:13] him feedback we love it keep it coming yeah stay tuned for the watchers diaries if you want to hear

[01:54:18] the spoilery discussion and if you'd like to join the conversation and we hope you do

[01:54:23] you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com or you can find us on Facebook

[01:54:30] at facebook.com/podcastica or Instagram at stillslayingcast and you can send an email

[01:54:37] or a recorded voice message to stillslayingfeedback@gmail.com and I will say Penny has also created a

[01:54:46] separate Facebook page for stillslayingcast so you can find us on that page as well all of

[01:54:55] this information is going to be in the show notes and it's also on podcastica so you don't

[01:55:00] have to try to remember it while you're listening you could just look it up and also at podcastica.com

[01:55:06] you'll find links to our other shows and there are so many of them and I am going to give a plug

[01:55:15] for welcome to the apocalypse it is a comedy improv show about a group of people traveling

[01:55:22] through the United States after a zombie outbreak it is non-stop silliness and I laugh out loud a

[01:55:29] lot when I listen to it the episodes are about a half an hour and I just think it's like some

[01:55:35] of the most pure fun that is available right now I would agree with that absolutely what are you

[01:55:44] listening to Steve me I listen to gosh almost all of them um I missed the silo one apparently

[01:55:52] to go back and find that way but I definitely listen to welcome to the apocalypse and the

[01:55:57] the I'm doing the re-watching of The Walking Dead Cindy and sporadically live steves for

[01:56:05] that on the cast of us um and I didn't listen to the echo ones because Mark and I are going to

[01:56:12] eventually do an echo podcast yeah that makes sense awesome um I thought I would take this segment

[01:56:21] this time to kind of plug being a patron for cast of us for Jason Calbasi those of you who don't

[01:56:31] know he is the one who started it with Karen back in the day covering The Walking Dead and you can

[01:56:38] be a patron and get access to the zed head group on Facebook which is an absolute blast because

[01:56:45] it's a bunch of fantastic people from all over the world nerding out about our favorite things and

[01:56:52] you know kind of supporting each other as well it's a great community and you get access to the

[01:57:00] zed head feed on podcast apps and you get certain episodes early of shows that are covered

[01:57:09] and you get access to the zed head show and I did one recently with Jason and Mark about what

[01:57:16] we're most looking forward to in 2024 in terms of TV shows and movies um we've done one on crime

[01:57:25] shows and I got to talk a little bit about my experience with learning from John Douglas who

[01:57:31] is the criminal profiler from the FBI that the character Holden Ford is based on in Mindhunter

[01:57:37] so many people have been on to offer up their unique experiences we talk about so many fun

[01:57:45] topics so if you're at all tempted check it out I believe you can do it for as little as a couple

[01:57:52] dollars a month five dollars a month so if you're enjoying podcasting content it it would be well

[01:58:00] worth your time checking it out and we love bringing in new people for sure yes and if you like what

[01:58:08] we do of course you know follow hit like follow subscribe all those good things give us a five-star

[01:58:15] review if it's available all those things yay and next time be sure to tune in for season three

[01:58:24] episode eight lovers walk and I am trying to keep the giddiness out of my voice just mentioning

[01:58:31] that title I cannot wait so thanks everyone and the fact is there's talk in the council that you

[01:58:40] have become a bit too American me him not a look like a cop justice runs in her blood I want you

[01:58:52] to focus on the tradition you're carrying on that's our legacy but when the line is blurred I know

[01:58:57] how hard it is when your family is taken from you stay away just talk to me which side will she

[01:59:04] choose maybe you should reconsider the uniform and everything that it represents I'd rather fight

[01:59:09] from inside it to make a change allegiance new series Wednesday watch free on cbcc jam

[01:59:16] all right that's the end of the non-spoiler section if you want to avoid spoilers you should

[01:59:22] stop listening now three two one that's enough time for you to leave it's too bad we can't sneak

[01:59:28] a look at the watcher diaries sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah that's too bad

[01:59:36] that stuff is private also jowls keeps them in his office and his personal files most importantly

[01:59:43] it would be wrong okay now it's all spoilers all the time and we can all talk about how

[01:59:51] angel is eventually gonna leave Buffy for her own good we could talk about how faith is gonna turn