23: “Amends” (BTVS S3E10)

[00:00:00] Hmm?

[00:00:01] Ah!

[00:00:03] Oh...

[00:00:04] One can't stick around!

[00:00:10] Alright, ten more minutes of chanting and then you guys have to go to bed.

[00:00:22] Hm. I'm impressed.

[00:03:00] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying got me into it. I feel like that's a good time to jump in. You have so much material to catch up on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like we couldn't just automatically start over. So I just jumped in. The thing about-

[00:03:01] Probably part of why I like Angel, you know, I'm a fifth grader and getting ready for middle school. I do remember the number one song in the US playing over and over again. I'm Your Angel, still by R. Kelly and Celine Dion.

[00:04:20] Of course, in the UK, the number one song is Believe by Cher.

[00:04:26] I wonder if that still ranks gay shit just being everywhere. A book really was everywhere. I think I read it the next year in sixth grader show. So and I probably shouldn't not at that, but I also read helter skelter that year. So you

[00:05:42] know, it's fine. London was hearing his appeal to overturn its three to two ruling that he does not have immunity from arrest as a former foreign head of state. During the week of December 13th, 1998, on the 16th, the Iraq disarmament crisis was ongoing with Operation Desert Fox, in which the

[00:07:01] United States and United Kingdom bombed targets in Iraq to degrade its ability to produce, store, Senate for a trial. What a weird time that was. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was finishing up basic training like I was in the army. That's right. You were in the army. Another military vet. Thank you for your service. Yes. Just like Steve. Were you, were you overseas?

[00:08:21] No, if you were in basic training, you were here.

[00:08:23] You were in the state.

[00:08:24] Where did you go through basic training?

[00:08:26] Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.

[00:08:28] Missouri. Grinchtull Christmas by Dr. Seuss, of course, and which roast beast is a traditional Christmas dinner for the Hoos in Whoville. This next one is Buffy compares a Mocking the book's dramatic description by paraphrasing the crystal song, he's a rebel. Oh, I didn't know that. Next up, the Maple Court has newspaper vending machines

[00:11:02] featuring USA Today, which is always fun.

[00:11:07] The world's worst newspaper. LA was the Los Angeles WB affiliate at the time. Perfect. Yeah, that makes sense. With the ridiculous weather report about Sunnydale. They're not gonna see the sun all day. Just to underline the point of the end of the show. It's not like because that makes sense. Not always a subtle show in the way that they write those kinds

[00:12:23] of things. Seriously. So let and seducing. Like yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:40] The scene where she's standing behind Giles and Giles can't see her is sort of heartbreaking. I think about how desperate Angel was to seek out Giles for help. And, you know, he comes to the door and he's like, sorry to bother you. And Giles laughs, which is probably how I would react to like, sorry to bother me. Like, how about sorry for being an evil demon that tortured you?

[00:15:00] Like it's, it's such an understatement.

[00:15:02] And it's similar to when the first is, is taunting Angel at one point and Angel's characters have all gone through and how they would realistically respond in situations like this. So that crossbow seemed very warranted. Yeah, definitely. And I was I was actually like, why would you even invite him into your house? I'd be like, you could stand in the doorway and talk to me. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, I don't see any need for you to come in here ever again.

[00:16:23] Maybe he didn't want his neighbors to hear. I don't know.

[00:17:22] I'm aware of that. Don't worry.

[00:17:24] I love Giles's ability to stay cool and calm in situations like that.

[00:17:29] It makes him, you know, we joke a lot on this podcast about sexy Giles.

[00:17:33] Like that's one of his sexiest qualities is how he's like always thoughtful and very rarely like loses his temper.

[00:17:43] Like when he comes back with that crossbow. Despite his personal feelings about Angel, Giles recognized that this is a danger and he was looking into it before Buffy even approached him. You know, he knows like we don't, as much as he doesn't like Angel with a soul because of everything that happened, he doesn't want Angel without a soul. Yeah, right.

[00:19:01] Although I did wonder why he didn't speak up to Buffy sooner

[00:19:04] like before she came to him.

[00:19:05] Yeah. was. And at this point in time, I think it's a little unsettling for him that he's, you know, in the dark, and doesn't actually have a hold on what's going on. He also knows that Buffy is trying to stay away from Angel. So the last thing she needs is to get the news that he's in trouble. Now, of course, she gets that news from elsewhere. And once

[00:20:22] Giles accepts that, that the two of them are what you're thinking about right now. I know this might come as a shock, but you don't have to put an angel or a star on top of your tree. I personally have Princess Leia at the top of my tree.

[00:21:40] I love that. This year I used the sorting hat from Harry Potter.

[00:21:44] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:21:45] To top it off. turned it into a I can't wait for spring tree and now it is bedecked in floral garlands So I'll put that up on the Instagram as well It's kind of relevant because they're decorating for Christmas, but I think it's nice You know, this is not a surprise or too big of a spoiler. I think to mention this is the only

[00:23:05] Christmas episode of Buffy But I assume we have a lot of overlap of supernatural fans. There's probably some crossover. Yeah. As long as we're on the subject of trees. Kelly, did you do a tree this year? I did. Ours is just kind of a mishmash of different things. I have been adding more. I love Vegas. I go to Vegas a lot. And so each time I try and get an ornament.

[00:24:22] Cool.

[00:24:23] I love it.

[00:24:24] I've been collecting more.

[00:24:25] And then like from like, nope, no, no, no more Giles time.

[00:25:41] And Buffy looks confused by that, but accepts it.

[00:25:45] And later on, we'll find out more about that. And I do like how she, you know, she considers faith and encourages Buffy to invite faith. She's just a very, she's just such a nurturing, caring person. And it does make me sad thinking mask and everything. They also have things in common like interest in ancient artifacts Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of ways that it seems like they would be a logical choice And I think back in an Angel episode. I think so, too. She looked really familiar, so I just couldn't remember if I was. It's just. Thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:29:41] I've.

[00:29:42] The scene with the guy, the first one that was like the opening scene,

[00:29:46] 18 or something, oh, he suffers. But seeing how evil he was, it makes the feeling of affection and compassion for him much more complicated. Because you're like, if he did that that one time, but he was a vampire for decades, how many parents did he kill?

[00:31:01] How many children did he orphan?

[00:31:03] Or we later find out when he talks people in top hats and walking along like an old London street. And the struggles that, you know, Ebenezer Scrooge had in that particular narrative, he was horrible to families destroying people basically for his own together in any kind of serious way. Mm-hmm. And we can talk about this a little bit more in the spoilery section, but this episode has always kind of resonated almost as like an episode zero for the Angel spin-off. Yeah.

[00:33:40] Like the very first prequel episode for Angel as and attempting to, you know, be worthwhile after the worthlessness in his prior life that he has absolutely nothing left to give at this point. And that just, I could not stop thinking about the parallels to it's got a very different pace and feel from a lot of other episodes. When I was making my notes and collecting sound bites, I noticed there's lots of monologues. There's not a lot of dialogue in the episode.

[00:37:40] It's a lot of long speeches by different characters.

[00:37:44] And it's just a different pace from other Buffy episodes. is better than dead. She should have made that decision. But at the time she just thought Angel was human and he was going to rape her not eat her. And so she didn't call out but he used her situation against her the way many sexual predators do they pick people who are in kinds of pleasure in it than any creature that walks or him in that situation with Margaret who is the maid is just

[00:41:41] fact that Buffy witnesses him what appears to be almost commit a sexual assault and then a murder

[00:42:46] to see him that way. And that probably just digs him further into the trenches of this, you know, kind of depressive episode. And he's like, well, now Buffy knows who I really

[00:42:53] am on top of everything else. Like she's seen what I've put her through with her friends,

[00:42:59] with Jenny Callender, and then seeing this side of him as well. It just, it was an impactful want to drive him towards, but I don't know. I also wonder if it could just be like this quirky Slayer ability that Buffy seems to have where she has this deep connection with Angel and that tie allows her kind of prophetic

[00:44:20] dream abilities to sync up with him.

[00:44:23] It's a cool power, but it would be very disturbing It also refers to itself as we, it's like we brought you back. And so I'm like, who else is we? Who's in the we? Right, it's frustrating not to know what that is.

[00:45:42] It's very woo woo magic, powerful people thing.

[00:46:44] I'm sort of, I always wanted there to be a Watcher's Council spin-off because I wanted to know all about

[00:46:52] how they, what else they do, what are they up to, they can't have only one slayer that they're all focused on, they clearly do other kinds of research and training and have other, you know, agents that

[00:47:00] they work with, so I never felt satisfied that we got enough information about the Watcher's Council

[00:48:06] So they're doing what they, or like, you know, they're just doing what they can to summon this evil back. That's what's confusing too is what the first motivation is because it seems like, you know, there's this motivation to turn Angel back to, you know, evil and jealous again, and kind of a push towards possibly killing Buffy, wish I didn't love you I I have that the speech it's really incredibly moving to me am I a thing worth saving her am I a righteous man the world wants me gone

[00:50:47] yelling this at him. She's just, it's being wrenched out of her by the pain of the idea of him dying. It's intense. But they don't have Buffy's declaration of love to Angel

[00:50:55] be the thing that saves him. You know, what like this magical blessing almost. And I just, you know, the way that they want to be together, they love each other, and this momentarily saves Angel's life, I don't think they of them being a part. And one of my pet peeves on TV shows is that characters never seem to ever take the option of, let's think about it for a minute before we make a decision. Everything has to be urgent. And I get it.

[00:53:40] It's like dramatic for narrative

[00:53:41] that you've moved from point to point to point,

[00:53:43] action to action to action.

[00:53:45] But it is nice to see a Mary Sue for men, for male characters. But at this point Oz is it. Maybe we should start it and call it like Mark Sue or call it an Oz and say like this

[00:55:02] is what it is when a male character has no flaws. you're kissing me, it's not because you want to, you know, get back at Xander. And again, he's like, when we do have sex, I want us to both want to do it for the same reasons and not because you're trying to prove something to me. It's almost superhumanly mature from Oz. I also was like, why didn't Buffy and Joyce invite Xander over? Buffy knows he's alone on Christmas and sleeping outside on the ground. Basically I can understand where his need for validation comes from. It just doesn't really make it any less frustrating to see in action. But it would have been nice for Joyce and Buffy to reach out to Xander too. I think his, like he uses his sarcasm and comedy as a defense mechanism.

[00:59:03] Very much.

[00:59:04] Yeah.

[00:59:05] And it's inappropriate most times, but he'll get a laugh I'm sure. is. I should respect that. It is realistic. But there is one of my absolute favorite Xander moments in this episode when he goes with Buffy to the underground bar scene and talks to Willy and tries to be intimidating and

[01:00:26] get information out then and that Willie is like oh the slayer really loud so that his clientele can like quietly get up and leave is adorable. It's just it's so good it adds such a fun layer Yeah, what's behind the bar? What's on tap? Is there blood back there? Is it demon entrails? Is it like entrails? Is it weird creepers? Or do demons eat human food? Is it like french fries and chicken sandwiches? Who knows? Yeah, not a whole series about Willy, but one deep

[01:03:03] dive episode with Willy would have been pretty fun. they're dead. But you know, I mean, as much as anything makes sense in the vampire universe. I know. I remember there was one time I had not read Twilight and one of my friends brought something up about killing vampires by ripping their heads off or lighting them on fire. I was

[01:04:20] like, that's not true. They have to have a hell is going on. And I think, yes, it helps all of them to know what's going on with Angel, but Xander didn't have to have anything to do with it like post 70s maybe. So we know Angel was cursed in the late 19th century. So this 20th century guy whose kids were left in their beds for him to find, that happened

[01:07:03] after Angel had his soul returned.

[01:07:07] That's awful. He's 15 and he's very upset that I'm not giving him attention. And where I usually record is under construction right now. So I'm just hopeful that he's not too bad. Although his whining does seem very on theme with this episode. It is a pretty melodramatic and intense one.

[01:08:22] Just a little side note, I thought that the choice of Silent Night being this context, I was like, that's why I always have somewhat of an eerie feeling. That and that tip-tone. Oh, that song is creepy anyway. But it was used to great effect on Walking Dead. And it's like traumatic now for every Walking Dead viewer.

[01:09:42] Not an insidious.

[01:09:44] Oh, I haven't seen insidious.

[01:09:45] It's just...

[01:09:47] Oh gosh.

[01:09:48] I love that fridge. when I watch TV, so many shows I need subtitles for because the sound mix means that you have to have the TV all the way up to hear the volume and then it's way too loud when there's action or the music overpowers the dialogue. And I was really starting to think that it was me getting older and my ears not working as well. But rewatching Buffy, I'm like, no, I can hear

[01:11:02] everything they're saying on this show. Yeah. So it's a sound mix.

[01:12:03] and you know, go. And I love when she shows up on Buffy's doorstep

[01:12:06] with her little, you know, attempted presents

[01:12:10] and she's still hanging up little Christmas lights

[01:12:13] in her motel room.

[01:12:15] And it's just, I don't know, it's a nice moment

[01:12:18] to see her actually given again and go with Joyce and Buffy.

[01:13:24] that she still has gone to reach out to Faith.

[01:13:27] I wish we knew what her presents were.

[01:13:30] Yeah, she's like, they're crappy. They're crappy.

[01:13:30] She's saying they're crappy.

[01:13:31] But it reminds me of this one year when my brother was working at Store 24

[01:13:40] and all of us got our presents from Store 24.

[01:13:43] And it was, you know, he didn't have a lot of money at. Fantastic. Oh, man. Oh, and I'd love when Faith steps out with Joyce to look at the snow. I forgot about that scene. That scene, she just looks so happy. And it's such a nice moment. Yeah, the snow scene in general is really nice. How we like revisit.

[01:15:01] We see most of our characters realizing it's snowing.

[01:15:05] I don't know why we don't get to see Giles, but we see Xander

[01:16:05] her angel, she has a coat on since it's like a heat wave in Sunnydale. Like, it's at the end with the snow, but...

[01:16:07] I know, I have that down.

[01:16:09] They're all wearing coats.

[01:16:10] Like, face shows up, she's wearing a coat and they're like, it's so hot, we need to

[01:16:13] turn on the AC.

[01:16:15] And then...

[01:16:16] Yeah.

[01:16:17] It's got to feel Christmasy.

[01:16:18] They have to have coats on.

[01:16:19] It's...

[01:16:20] A lot of times, the characters on the wardrobe department was like, Oh, all right. Not doing that again. Never again. And then also like, does he sleep nude?

[01:17:42] Like, because it seemed like he did.

[01:17:45] Like what sense does that make?

[01:17:48] I don't notice it. Oh, now I have to go back and look. I. Yeah, I have a pic. I took a picture. I'll send it to you guys. Oh, awesome. Creepy. A lot of times it's fun with this show, especially in season four. The to pause and look at stuff in the background.

[01:19:01] The art department goes to a lot of trouble with the like stickers

[01:19:05] and band posters and and when they get to college, Yeah, not great. Or vampires. Yeah, she doesn't have a lot of options that are reasonable. There's a lot of people on the internet who have very strong feelings about who Buffy should be with. But I have always felt like none of the men she's connected with on the show are the right

[01:20:20] person for her.

[01:20:21] They're just part of her journey.

[01:20:23] I've never felt like she belonged forever with any of the show for years. And then they get the couple together and the show tanked after that. And so I think a lot of creative people, people in TV and movies were like, oh, well don't let people get together. That's never gonna work.

[01:21:40] And it always comes down to if you write it well,

[01:21:43] you can make it work.

[01:21:44] If you want to, you can aren't just a love triangle. Like I get tired of love triangles. It's like, that's not the only reason that a relationship can have friction is that there's another person, right?

[01:23:00] You can create plenty of conflict,

[01:23:03] just the two of you, like, believe me.

[01:24:09] life and that, you know, she got her emotional needs met as a child. So she's, she's constantly in a state of come close, go away with, with Buffy and the rest of the scoobies. And she's

[01:24:13] already been hurt. She got really, really hurt by them in revelations. And it's a big

[01:24:20] deal that she comes to their house for Christmas and's just, I don't know, it's nice to see her have a moment of connection and actual happiness and inclusion in this episode. It's just kind of refreshing. Okay, I think we've had enough fun playing in the snow and

[01:25:42] I just now realized that it's a snow angel episode.

[01:25:46] That's funny.

[01:26:49] It was a Buffy Christmas sweepstakes where you could call 1-800-COLLECT and basically try to win a role on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[01:26:52] And they used this as an episode for, or as an advertisement for the episode of Men's.

[01:27:00] And there was a specific commercial that they played for this contest as an additional kind at the same time. So we'll post that. It's a fun watch. I have been loving the old promos for the episodes that you have been finding and posting. They're so sensationalist and over the top and goofy. It's really nostalgic. It's like these, this type of promo

[01:28:21] is probably why a lot of people did not give Buffy

[01:28:24] a chance at the time.

[01:28:25] It was airy.

[01:28:26] They're really cheesy. I think I actually like this episode better than Revelations. Excellent. Nice. That worked out well. Yeah. Um, why do you think you like it better than Revelations? I didn't like the watcher character in Revelations. Like she just bothered me a lot.

[01:29:40] So.

[01:29:41] Oh, you go under the nose.

[01:29:42] Mrs.

[01:29:43] And yeah.

[01:29:44] Yeah, and it just seemed were a downer and it's not what I makes amends for that. And then it's a little hands making hearts emoji. And then Becky says, Hello, all thoughts in season three, episode 10. I can't with Angel's wig and mustache.

[01:32:20] Hello.

[01:32:21] Yeah.

[01:32:21] Yeah.

[01:32:21] They did look pretty bad.

[01:32:22] That was good.

[01:32:24] And his accent.

[01:32:26] Oh yeah.

[01:32:26] The accent is so bad.

[01:33:27] an a-hole regarding Angel. It was great seeing the gang all together and back at work. Love the Giles Angel scene when Angel showed up at his house. It was great seeing Jenny

[01:33:33] back even if she was just a manifestation of the first. I like that it was her the first

[01:33:39] use as the main person to torture Angel about his past.

[01:33:43] Robia Scott's acting skills were on full display in this episode. Sad she's no longer sign from above that it isn't Angel's time to go yet from above or below. Who knows? Her favorite quote was Buffy when talking evil with the first, all right, I get it, you're evil. Do we have to chat about it all night? Oh, it's a good moment. This episode does not land in my top 20 of episodes, but it was a good one. I think it was

[01:35:04] a great way for Angel to come to terms with the negative sides of his past and realize the good for the episode Gingerbread. Hey, Penny and Carrot, Sam. The episode of Men's has one of my core Buffy memories from many, many years ago when I first watched it of that scene where Buffy and Angel are overlooking Sunnydale and it's getting ready to be sunrise. And he's just like, this world wants me gone.

[01:36:21] And then she just looks up at him and she goes,

[01:36:25] what about me? they wrote and directed this. And I had forgotten about this. It didn't click like the first time I watched this, obviously I was younger than Buffy when I first watched this. And then I'm watching it now and I'm like, the beginning of the episode, Angel looks terrified after he sees that ghost. I mean, truly terrified. And Buffy's just like,

[01:37:40] what's up 250 year old vampire who's been to hell and back.

[01:37:44] You look a little freaked out,

[01:37:46] but she just like didn't follow up on

[01:39:01] it.

[01:39:02] But yeah, that should have set off alarm bells. and you can always send an email or a recorded voice message to stillslangfeedbackatgmail.com. And all this information will also be in the show notes, so you can just scroll down and find it, or it's on podcastica.com, where you will also find links to our social media pages and all the other

[01:40:20] podcastica shows. And launching

[01:40:24] this week is a new show that's premiering tonight on And going back and re-listening to Yellow Jackets, I just, I miss that show so much. So I've been putting that podcast on while I'm working. How about you, Kelly? I've been listening to the rewatch of The Walking Dead on... Oh nice.

[01:41:40] The cast of The Walking Dead.

[01:41:41] And like getting caught up on here too, so I'm finally caught up.

[01:41:44] Oh yeah, that's true.

[01:41:45] We move fast, so gotta get caught up. Yeah, that's too bad. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office, in his personal files. Most importantly, it would be wrong. So many spoilers. So many spoilers about the first and about powers that be.

[01:43:01] So when we get, Angel gets his own show,

[01:43:04] he interacts a lot with the quote They want him alive, right? They specifically never kill him on that show because they want him to be part of the apocalypse. And, and I wonder if they if they had an idea for some of it, because, you know, there's always been this assumption or speculation that the powers that be are responsible possibly

[01:45:41] for this, you know, miraculous snowfall and Sunnydale that saves Angel's life because they have a

[01:46:49] But I always wonder just how much they knew at this point in time. And with the first, I always assume also that the first is just taking credit for bringing

[01:46:58] him back.

[01:46:59] And really, the only thing I can think we don't know if the powers that be are good or evil, they're just powerful. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are good or evil. Yeah. They just, they have, you know, they have something that they are seeking to protect,

[01:48:24] which is Angel's life at this point in Yeah, cause I, gosh, I mean, part of me wants to go forward and start watching some of those episodes just cause they're so interesting. Particularly when the Cassie character comes into the mix

[01:49:44] where, you know, she knows she's gonna die.

[01:49:46] And that episode is one kind of, I don't know, slow or bogged down in some of the more, I don't know, dramatic mon to have sex in order for the curse to kick back in. Him being around the one person that he loves is always going to be risky.

[01:52:21] That's why I think in the previously on a very interesting landmark in Sunnydale. I don't know where it's actually filmed. I would assume Los Angeles. Um, yeah, I don't know. I was wondering

[01:53:43] if that was the same bluff where a where Willow up to season seven already. Cause I'm watching it with my daughter too. Oh, nice. That's good. That's something I really miss is the water cooler aspect of shows and, and

[01:55:00] watching with people and catching up with them after.

[01:55:03] Buffy was a big one for me in the early 2000s when I was like, oh, finally, at least it feels like I'm having a conversation with people. That's true. Oh, I did find a quote from JW if she knew it was truly like the first evil. And I was like, well, that's kind of something you say in the episode, but that's fine.

[01:57:42] Yeah, the dialogue is not subtle.

[01:57:46] Yeah, she equates it to Satan. Yeah. OK, that is the complete end of our show. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We really appreciate you. And we love doing this, so it means the world to us that we even have listeners at all. Until next time, I am Penny. And I'm Kelly. And I'm Cara.

[01:59:00] Keep playing.

[01:59:01] Keep playing.