25: “Helpless” (BTVS S3E12)

[00:00:00] It's an organic compound of muscle relaxants and adrenal suppressors.

[00:00:14] The effect is temporary, you'll be yourself again in a few days.

[00:00:24] You?

[00:00:28] It's a test, Buffy.

[00:00:32] It's given to the Slayer once she reaches her 18th birthday.

[00:00:40] The Slayer is disabled and then entrapped with a vampire foe whom she must defeat in order to pass the test.

[00:00:51] The vampire you would have faced has escaped.

[00:00:58] His name is Zachary Kremik.

[00:01:02] As a mortal, he murdered, tortured more than a dozen women before he was committed to an asylum for the criminally insane Wender Avant.

[00:01:13] You bastard.

[00:01:16] All this time you saw what it was doing to me.

[00:01:19] All this time and you didn't say a word.

[00:01:22] I wanted to.

[00:01:24] Lier.

[00:01:25] In matters of tradition and protocol, I must answer to the council.

[00:01:28] My role in this was very specific.

[00:01:32] I was to administer the injections and to direct you to the old boarding house on Prescott Lane.

[00:01:38] I can't hear this.

[00:01:41] Buffy please.

[00:01:46] Who are you?

[00:01:48] How can you do this to me?

[00:01:51] I am deeply sorry, Buffy and you have to understand.

[00:01:54] If I touch me, I'll kill you.

[00:01:59] You have to listen to me because I told you this the test is invalidated.

[00:02:04] You will be safe now.

[00:02:06] I promise you.

[00:02:07] Whatever I have to do to deal with Kremik and to win back your trust.

[00:02:12] You can handle me.

[00:02:14] You poison me.

[00:02:35] Hello everybody, welcome to Still Sling, a Buffyverse podcast.

[00:02:39] I'm Penny and I'm Kara.

[00:02:41] This episode we're going to be discussing season three, episode 12 helpless which was directed by James A.

[00:02:47] Contner and written by David Fury.

[00:02:50] The original air date for this one was January 19th of 1999 which also happens to be Buffy's birthday.

[00:02:57] And this episode had an audience of 4.6 million households for its original earring.

[00:03:04] It's also a Dolly Parton's birthday January 19th.

[00:03:08] That's fantastic.

[00:03:09] I wonder if that's my Buffy ass birthday.

[00:03:11] As that birthday.

[00:03:12] I hope so.

[00:03:13] Some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were defenseless in French, hopeless in Hungarian,

[00:03:22] the final exam in German and birthday of terror in Italian.

[00:03:27] That's my favorite.

[00:03:28] Oh, that's so Italian.

[00:03:29] Birthday of terror!

[00:03:31] That's fantastic.

[00:03:32] It just makes me think of like monsters coming out of a birthday cake.

[00:03:37] Right.

[00:03:38] Instead of strippers, you get monsters.

[00:03:41] A fun tidbit following up on the alternative Polish title for last week's episode, Gingerbread.

[00:03:47] Thanks to my Polish friend Piotr.

[00:03:50] I think that's how you pronounce his name.

[00:03:52] I'm so sorry if I'm wrong.

[00:03:54] As I listened to this may remember last week's episode was titled, Follow the Thread to the Ball in Poland.

[00:04:00] And Piotr let me know that Ponice do...

[00:04:04] Clebka, that's probably not how that's pronounced.

[00:04:07] Is a Polish idiom which means follow your leads until they take you to the source of the issue.

[00:04:13] And he and I went back and forth about this a little bit, trying to figure out why that was the title.

[00:04:19] And I thought most likely it was a play on the part of the Hansel & Gretel fairy tale of the leaving the stones to follow or leaving the breadcrumbs.

[00:04:30] But it's weird because that was the one part of the Hansel & Gretel story that was not in the episode.

[00:04:35] Yep, but they did not directly refer to it.

[00:04:39] All right, Poland.

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:42] We're going to hear more from Piotr at the end of the episode.

[00:04:45] So stay tuned for that.

[00:04:48] And another fun fact today...

[00:04:51] Well, the day that we are recording this episode which is March 11th is Mark Metkaf 78th birthday.

[00:04:58] So we want to wish him a very happy birthday.

[00:05:01] Metkaf has had a very long acting career and portrayed the infamous Doug Mietermier in 1979's National Impounds Animal House.

[00:05:12] And of course, the master himself on Buffy.

[00:05:16] Very fantastic.

[00:05:18] Also I wanted to say this is our 25th episode of Still Slaying.

[00:05:23] So it's our first sort of milestone.

[00:05:26] And I couldn't be more thrilled that it's for this episode of The Show.

[00:05:32] So let's go back to January 19th, 1999.

[00:05:40] The number one song in the US is still Have You Ever by Brandy.

[00:05:44] But it's time to keep an eye on Baby One More Time because that is starting to inch up the charts.

[00:05:51] And then the number one song in the UK is still Praise You by Fat Boy Slim.

[00:05:57] At this point in time, the best-selling books were Anne Rice's The Vampire Armand and The Endurance by Caroline Alexander.

[00:06:06] And in the box office, we've still got number one patch Adams and number two stepmom.

[00:06:12] And a Bug's Life and Ants have dropped down to number six and seven respectively.

[00:06:19] During the week, the episode aired.

[00:06:21] On January 19th, President Clinton gives the State of the Union Address amidst the throws of the Lewinsky scandal

[00:06:27] and his ongoing impeachment trial, which he did not mention during the State of the Union Address.

[00:06:33] Instead, he focused on the economy, the federal budget taxes, the future of social security, education,

[00:06:39] and solving the so-called Y2K computer problem drawing public concern as we inch closer to the year 2000.

[00:06:46] Y2K.

[00:06:47] Y2K.

[00:06:48] We were also cutely worried about that.

[00:06:52] On January 20th, the US sought revision of the missile defense pact with Russia.

[00:06:58] President Bill Clinton and his administration asked Russia to renegotiate the 1972 anti-Belistic

[00:07:04] missile treaty to allow limited national system of missile defenses.

[00:07:09] Also on the 20th, India foils a plot to bomb US consulates in India.

[00:07:14] The Indian police arrest a Bangladeshi man and three others charged with planning attacks in Madras and Calcutta.

[00:07:20] And on the 21st, in one of the largest drug busts in American history,

[00:07:24] the US Coast Guard intercepted a ship carrying 4,300 kilograms of cocaine.

[00:07:30] Dunya?

[00:07:31] That is so much cocaine.

[00:07:33] I'm gonna want to cocaine.

[00:07:37] Oh wow.

[00:07:38] What kind of boat was it?

[00:07:39] It must have been...

[00:07:41] I don't know.

[00:07:42] I'm gonna take it up more.

[00:07:43] Like a small yacht.

[00:07:44] All right.

[00:07:45] 4,300 kilograms is a lot of cocaine.

[00:07:49] Oh, it was a 580-foot Greek-owned freighter called the Kans.

[00:07:56] It was transporting 26,000 mectrotons of iron ore from Brazil to Houston.

[00:08:03] And so it just happened to have an extensive amount of cocaine on it.

[00:08:07] And for those of you who are not familiar with the metric system that is approximately 9,500 pounds of cocaine.

[00:08:15] That's so much cocaine.

[00:08:17] That is so sweet.

[00:08:18] That's almost a ton.

[00:08:19] That's almost a ton of cocaine.

[00:08:21] So imagine like a car.

[00:08:26] It's that much cocaine.

[00:08:28] Man, that was expensive.

[00:08:30] That was a very expensive loss for some people.

[00:08:34] Yeah, sure was.

[00:08:35] Who we...

[00:08:36] That's wild.

[00:08:37] All right.

[00:08:38] We have some great pop culture references in this particular episode.

[00:08:43] Helpless.

[00:08:44] I feel like we should maybe title this as pop culture references and some not-so-pop culture references.

[00:08:53] Yeah, but I love it.

[00:08:54] Or a little more obscure.

[00:08:55] Yeah, culture references.

[00:08:58] Yeah, culture references works.

[00:09:00] Because the first one that we have is Angel for Herbert Day.

[00:09:04] Gives Buffy the book Sonnets from the Portuguese, which is from 1850.

[00:09:10] And it's a collection of 44 love sonnets written by Elizabeth Barrett Browning.

[00:09:18] It's actually an incredibly romantic gift but I don't know if Buffy was the one that I appreciate it.

[00:09:23] As an 18-year-old did not properly appreciate that one.

[00:09:27] Maybe after she gets a little college lit in her.

[00:09:32] Yeah.

[00:09:33] Buffy mentions Brian Boytano, a 1988 Olympic gold medalist and one of the world's most celebrated figure skaters.

[00:09:41] I love this.

[00:09:43] In her mentions of Brian Boytano, Buffy mentions him performing the 1875 opera Carmen by French artist.

[00:09:52] By French composer, is it George's Bizzette?

[00:09:56] I'm sure I said that terribly.

[00:09:58] It's George Bizzette.

[00:09:59] Yeah, because my can't pronounce French.

[00:10:03] I'm going to link my Cajun blood on that one butchered French all the time.

[00:10:08] And that is based on a novel and fun fact.

[00:10:11] Fun fact, just from me Brian Boytano also has a song devoted to him in South Park bigger longer and uncut.

[00:10:19] And I have been singing that since I watched the episode last week.

[00:10:23] I cannot get it out of my head.

[00:10:25] I only just saw the South Park movie last week.

[00:10:29] Oh my gosh.

[00:10:30] So then when I watched helpless and it was the Brian Boytano reference came up,

[00:10:34] I was like, oh, it's hell work!

[00:10:36] Like, I got all excited about it.

[00:10:39] Continuing on with more about Brian Boytano and some fun facts and Buffy connections,

[00:10:44] he portrays an ice skating commentator in the 2004 movie Ice Princess starring Michelle Tractenberg as an ice skater.

[00:10:51] Tractenberg is known in the Buffyverse for her portrayal of the somewhat controversial character Don.

[00:10:57] No spoilers, but that's two seasons from it.

[00:10:59] That's all we'll say.

[00:11:01] In this episode, we also hear Oz and Zander debate about Superman's kryptonite.

[00:11:09] The term used is as a innate, any surviving fragment of the exploded planet krypton, Superman's home planet.

[00:11:16] There are five distinct varieties of kryptonite which are green, red, gold, blue and white.

[00:11:22] And the first three varieties are toxic to Superman.

[00:11:26] So green kills, red mutates and gold drains his powers.

[00:11:30] Therefore Oz is correct and it's Zander who gets it wrong because of course he does.

[00:11:37] Craylick talks with Buffy with lines reminiscent of the story Little Red Riding Hood.

[00:11:42] That was not very subtle actually, the Little Red Riding Hood reference.

[00:11:46] Why did you come to the dark of the woods to bring all these sweets to grandma's house?

[00:11:51] If you stray from the path, you will lose your way.

[00:11:54] Additionally, Craylick hides and Buffy's hooded red jacket.

[00:11:58] It's so creepy.

[00:12:01] So creepy.

[00:12:02] Craylick is probably my favorite Buffy villain.

[00:12:06] He's so scary.

[00:12:09] Legitimately terrifying.

[00:12:11] And then finally, Willow mentions I went to Snoopy on ice when I was little.

[00:12:16] My dad took me backstage and I got scared.

[00:12:19] All right, I got so scared I threw up on Woodstock and Woodstock is of course the tiny yellow bird in Charles Schultz's penets cartoon strip.

[00:12:28] I love that she threw up on Woodstock.

[00:12:31] That's such a willow thing to do.

[00:12:34] Woodstock being yellow like all the ugly clothes that they put on Willow in this episode.

[00:12:39] Many ugly hats.

[00:12:41] Gosh, that's awful.

[00:12:43] They just really wanted to make her look nerdy and unfashionable.

[00:12:48] But why is she wearing like a snowboarding hat to high school?

[00:12:53] Look, it just doesn't make any sense.

[00:12:55] But that was also kind of, I feel like that was in style somewhat back then.

[00:13:02] There was that like skater snowboarding culture that made its way a little bit into the mainstream,

[00:13:10] like say mainstream and to kind of the quote, quote, quote, alternative kids in high school.

[00:13:16] Yeah, I guess.

[00:13:17] But it's still odd for Willow.

[00:13:18] Maybe it was Oz's hat and she borrowed it.

[00:13:21] That would make more sense to me.

[00:13:23] I've seen Oz wear a hat. He has perfect hair.

[00:13:26] Nobody does sound like a stoner in this episode.

[00:13:29] It's so funny.

[00:13:32] We've sort of already gotten into talking about the episode, so we'll just continue

[00:13:36] without any fanfare and just dig into it.

[00:13:40] I've already said a million times that this is one of my favorite episodes.

[00:13:44] I think it's a creative one and one of the things I really love about it is

[00:13:50] that it's got a lot of classic horror aesthetics to it.

[00:13:56] That house is really scary, the house that Krayla is in and the way that they've

[00:14:01] bricked up the windows and everything's locked and dark.

[00:14:06] All the walls look like they're molding and rotting.

[00:14:12] You kind of wonder if someone's going to fall through a rotted floorboard at some point.

[00:14:17] What did they say it was?

[00:14:20] A vacant boarding house?

[00:14:23] Back in the day.

[00:14:25] It seems like it probably would be haunted in addition to being a place to

[00:14:29] change a vampire.

[00:14:32] It looks super haunted.

[00:14:35] When Buffy is going through the house and when the dark, she tries to

[00:14:41] leave a wedge to keep the door open and one of the vampires,

[00:14:45] and she can't remember that one's name closes the door.

[00:14:49] She's going from room to room and when she ends up in that room with all

[00:14:54] the polaroids of her mother and the one ceiling light with the long chain hanging

[00:15:00] in the middle, and it's not a very big room, that is one of the most terrifying

[00:15:06] images in like the entire Buffy series.

[00:15:10] I think what makes me so terrifying is that of course he is a vampire,

[00:15:15] but it's the human aspect of him that makes him even scarier.

[00:15:20] And I do not envy the world.

[00:15:25] I don't envy the world.

[00:15:28] I'm not envy.

[00:15:32] I'm not envy.

[00:15:35] I'm not envy.

[00:15:40] But Buffy would have had to face in what she ends up facing in that situation.

[00:15:45] Yeah.

[00:15:47] Yeah.

[00:15:49] Giles reveals that Krelik had been a serial killer when he was human and he

[00:15:52] killed over a dozen women,

[00:15:55] and then he reveals further that he has issues with mothers,

[00:16:00] and his mother did something horrible to him when he was little with scissors.

[00:16:04] Has is typical for a lot of serial killers,

[00:16:08] especially TV serial killers.

[00:16:10] TV serial killers always have an abusive mother.

[00:16:13] I don't know why it's just made me think of Ed Kemper.

[00:16:18] Well, I think in particular that's what makes it kind of like a psychosexual act

[00:16:24] that they're carrying out against their mom.

[00:16:29] And you know, John Douglas, his books for those of you who are not giant crime nerds, true crime nerds,

[00:16:35] he was basically the founder of the behavioral analysis unit and was the first criminal profiler,

[00:16:44] which is what criminal minds is based off of.

[00:16:47] His book, Mine Hunters, What The Series is based off of.

[00:16:50] And he does some really fascinating deep dives into the backgrounds of different serial killers

[00:16:56] and the number of them who have, you know, poor relationships with their mothers in particular.

[00:17:03] An absent father's or also negative, you know, father figures is astounding.

[00:17:09] It's interesting, the connection that there is.

[00:17:13] It makes sense to me that someone who becomes a serial killer

[00:17:19] had to have had trauma in their life starting from a very early age

[00:17:26] because most of them don't have any sense of conscience, right?

[00:17:32] And you form that around two or three years old.

[00:17:35] So it means the abuse started as babies and that they were so abused

[00:17:40] that their brain never formed the ability to empathize with other people.

[00:17:46] So this acrylic guy was a psycho killer who then got turned into a vampire.

[00:17:52] We don't get to hear the story, I kind of wanted to hear it.

[00:17:55] What happened?

[00:17:56] Who turned it?

[00:17:57] Did a vampire get into the insane asylum?

[00:17:59] What happened?

[00:18:00] Who's there like an outbreak in the facility?

[00:18:05] Or did some vampire like take it upon themselves and say like,

[00:18:09] I heard about the serial killer, I'm going to go turn them like what happened?

[00:18:14] That would be terrifying.

[00:18:16] Someone targeting serial killers to make them immortal.

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:20] No thank you.

[00:18:21] Let's not do that.

[00:18:22] That's like somebody trying to start a vampire cult, right?

[00:18:25] They're like, I want to be the leader of vampires and I'm going to turn a bunch of them

[00:18:30] and then they're going to be grateful to me.

[00:18:32] And maybe there's some connection between Sire and Vampire.

[00:18:36] It's never made clear whether or not there is.

[00:18:38] Yeah, it's always slightly hinted at.

[00:18:41] But I feel like they were back and forth on that a lot in the lore.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:46] The alien rice books.

[00:18:47] Another example of a vampire universe.

[00:18:50] There's definitely a connection between Sire and Siree.

[00:18:54] And I can't remember what exactly the connection is but it's like if they call you,

[00:18:59] you have to go.

[00:19:00] I think True Blood has something similar too.

[00:19:02] Like you have to obey your Sire no matter what.

[00:19:06] And there are some vampire stories I've seen or read where if you kill the Sire,

[00:19:13] it kills all of the vampires they sired.

[00:19:16] That's right.

[00:19:18] Oh.

[00:19:19] Kind of a...

[00:19:20] That sounds familiar.

[00:19:21] It's like a cop out.

[00:19:22] The passage had that.

[00:19:23] Like if you kill the main vampire, it kills like all their creations.

[00:19:28] Although I don't know if the passage really counts as a vampire story.

[00:19:34] It could also be called a zombie story.

[00:19:37] Oh, I'm thinking of the vampire diaries.

[00:19:40] That's what it is.

[00:19:41] Oh yeah!

[00:19:42] There's a connection to the plotline.

[00:19:44] Yeah.

[00:19:45] I was just like that is itching something in the back of my brain.

[00:19:48] I've only seen that through maybe one and a half times.

[00:19:52] I came to it late because I was a little bit older when it first came out.

[00:19:55] But it wasn't bad.

[00:19:56] But that...

[00:19:57] Yes.

[00:19:58] There's a plotline in that show that's related to that.

[00:20:01] Yeah.

[00:20:02] That show had also a couple of different spin-offs that I never really got into.

[00:20:08] By the time the spin-offs came along, I was really tired of the vampire diaries.

[00:20:12] I was like, the show is getting real stupid.

[00:20:15] It's a very different type of vampire show.

[00:20:18] Yeah, it's not Buffy.

[00:20:19] It's not as deep and smart as Buffy and well-written anyway.

[00:20:24] I wish we had...

[00:20:26] I mean, I'm glad that Buffy defeats him, of course.

[00:20:29] But part of me wishes that he could have escaped and would have come back at some point in time,

[00:20:35] especially when she had her powers back fully, something like that,

[00:20:40] because he is such a compelling and terrifying villain.

[00:20:44] And I can't think of a vampire that strikes that much fear and discomfort and anxiety in an appearance.

[00:20:55] He's prangela.

[00:20:56] He's similar to Angela's in that he takes pleasure and gets a sense of fun and entertainment from how evil is going to be.

[00:21:06] He's just horrible.

[00:21:09] So the actor who plays Kralik, Jeff Cobra, I knew before this from China Beach where he plays a good guy.

[00:21:18] And I had sort of loved him on China Beach when I was in high school, that was on.

[00:21:24] And so when he showed up here as a vampire, I was like, whoa!

[00:21:29] That's Dodger from China Beach.

[00:21:32] He was awesome on China Beach and so I was not ready for him to be so scary,

[00:21:38] but I was like, well, he's a really good actor and sometimes good guys go on to play bad guys.

[00:21:43] And then he shows up on Buffy again in another role and then in an absolutely iconic villain role on Walking Dead.

[00:21:53] Yep.

[00:21:54] Good old soul.

[00:21:55] Great, Joe the Cobra.

[00:21:57] God, Joe.

[00:21:58] He is the one that's this way I had a note typed out for him too,

[00:22:03] because I think he is one of those actors that is always like, oh, I know that guy in different roles that he's in.

[00:22:10] And I associated him with Rack obviously, yep, in season six of Buffy.

[00:22:16] And then, you know, Rick spoiler alert for Walking Dead I guess?

[00:22:22] Killing him by ripping out his jugular with his teeth after he basically implied that he was going to let one of the other claimers in his group sexually less Carl

[00:22:35] when there were threats against Moshone and he threatened to kill him.

[00:22:38] And so Rick just kind of took that into his own hands and ended him right then and there.

[00:22:43] And he had I think it was four or five episodes on the Walking Dead and then other than that,

[00:22:50] I associate him in an entirely different type of role as Remy, the landlord and super on New Girl.

[00:23:00] Oh, I didn't know he was in three episodes.

[00:23:03] He is the landlord that propositions Jess and Nick in season one for a threesome.

[00:23:10] Oh my god, I have to watch that again. I don't remember that at all.

[00:23:14] And the other one that immediately will too, that immediately pop into my head,

[00:23:21] he is in an episode of Criminal Minds in season one and that's one of the seasons that I end up rewatching fairly frequently.

[00:23:28] And he is basically the quote unquote imaginary friend which is probably not the best way of phrasing it but he's a visual and auditory hallucination

[00:23:38] of a paranoid schizophrenic who takes a bunch of hostages on a train ride.

[00:23:46] And so he's there kind of spurring him on into this criminal behavior and it's a really interesting episode.

[00:23:54] And then he's on Supernatural and he's one of the criminals in season two's Folsom Prison Blues.

[00:24:02] So anytime I see him it's just like a run through of all my favorite shows almost.

[00:24:10] But he's been in a ton like he was on, I just wrote down a couple of them.

[00:24:15] It's really crazy.

[00:24:17] The Twilight Zone character rovers.

[00:24:22] X-Files, watch the series of your inner charm.

[00:24:26] Star Trek Voyager, Yarr, Law and Order SVU like so many more.

[00:24:32] So he has had a very, very lengthy TV career since 1985.

[00:24:39] And I'm curious what other people associate him with because I feel like he has so many rules here.

[00:24:45] Yeah, I mean he's currently on General Hospital and I have not watched General Hospital since I was a teenager but I imagine that

[00:24:55] fans, I mean it says here he's done 222 episodes so he's very well known to soap fans.

[00:25:04] I wonder if he plays a good guy or a bad guy on that show.

[00:25:08] His character's name is Cyrus Renaud and you know from soap opera tropes.

[00:25:16] That makes me think that his character is somebody's like long lost European wealthy relative.

[00:25:24] And it sounds Cyrus is always a name associated with wealth I feel like.

[00:25:30] Or I might just be thinking of gossip girl which is fine but that seems to be true.

[00:25:38] Oh Jeff Coburns.

[00:25:40] So yeah he's really talented and and Krelik is an amazing creation.

[00:25:48] I think you know we don't get like you said like it would be great if we got more episodes with him.

[00:25:55] He's just in this one episode but he's so memorable that people routinely bring him up as one of the best buffy villains because he's just

[00:26:04] he's just so good at it and his joy at tormenting Buffy and then also the iconic way that Buffy kills him with her cleverness and subterfuge instead of her powers.

[00:26:17] Is fantastic.

[00:26:22] It's important she is very brilliant tactically on top of having you know yes her slayer super powers unlike faith who is basically just one to storm in and you know

[00:26:38] she's all about the punting use force.

[00:26:42] I'm not really thinking more things out more tactical strategic whatever word you want to use and and I love it when Buffy has a creative kill.

[00:26:52] One of my favorite season one moments is when she uses the symbol to behead a vampire like that's just yeah so clever and cool you know whenever she uses like a pool queue or like you know grabs

[00:27:06] some wooden item from the room she's in and uses it like it's it's just always entertaining for me.

[00:27:13] Well this one in particular getting him like having the forethought like making note that he has to take these pills and they're very important to him

[00:27:24] to take these pills and arranging it so the only water he has access to happens to be holy water is brilliant and it's kind of you know I think the last time we saw holy water used was with spike angel and Buffy yeah and they're using it as like

[00:27:45] grenades of bombs almost yeah and this is this is excellently clever it is probably one of the best vampire kills that is in the series.

[00:27:56] I love it and I love that you know we don't see her put the holy water in the glass what we see is first she takes the pills and she dives into like a laundry shooter dumb waiter or whatever that is that gets her to the basement

[00:28:10] and then when Kralik gets to the basement he sees her like trying to run away with the pills and grabs the pills from her and then he goes and takes them and he's like see

[00:28:23] little girl whatever it is the speech he gives her and then he realizes what's happening and she you know holds up the holy water and says

[00:28:31] if I was at full slayer power I'd be pounding right about that. She you know has her moment to glow to him about how smart she was in the way that she killed him and that she tricked him

[00:28:47] and I cannot get enough of the idea that Buffy even without her powers is a formidable slayer.

[00:28:57] It's so important I think to for you know the audience and Buffy to see that you know it's more than just having this kind of mystical power bestowed upon her.

[00:29:12] It's Buffy on her own Buffy herself and the way her mind works and her instincts that are what's important because without those then their countless time she most likely could have her would have been killed already.

[00:29:27] So it's kind of an importance little confidence boost at the same time yeah at some point she doesn't react understandably great when this episode is ongoing

[00:29:41] but I think it's important for her to realize how much power she has on her own.

[00:29:47] It's a little bit like at the end of season two when she is fighting Angelus in the sword fight and he's you know he takes the sword from her and he's like no friends, no weapon you know what's left and she goes me and then fights back and it's like this amazing you know moment of strength from her

[00:30:08] and this is another amazing moment of strength from her where she at no point does she hesitate to go after Krelik when she realizes he has her mother like she springs into action immediately.

[00:30:20] She doesn't call anyone for help you know she could have gone and gotten Angel or gotten you know called Willow and Xander and they would have definitely come and tried to help like she just springs into action and gets the job done in impressive fashion.

[00:30:36] That's true and even though you can tell she's terrified she's scared but she's like all in she just does what she has to do and she always does that let's just think about Buffy is that even when what she's up against is horrifying and when you know she doesn't know how she's going to win she never backs down.

[00:30:58] She just keeps going and going and going.

[00:31:02] That's what makes her brave that's what that's what bravery is right it's it's going forward when you don't know the path when you don't know how you're going to win and when your opponent is 100% scary as you know what.

[00:31:19] Last week I bleeped out our swear words with the word fish and I think I'm going to keep doing that.

[00:31:25] Yeah.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:37] I want to back up a little bit to the fact of Buffy's birthday so Buffy has this horrible history of as she puts it gut wrenching what was it got

[00:31:46] watching pain and misery or something like that on her birthday and we know that you know on her birthday in season two she and angel have sex and angel loses his soul and all hell breaks loose for her after of course her surprise party where she got an arm in a box.

[00:32:03] And you know angel brings that up in a really funny manner he gives her this beautiful book of poetry and she reacts sort of underwhelmingly to it and he's like the what you seem more excited last year when you got an arm in a box.

[00:32:17] And I've always loved that line because it's just so funny.

[00:32:20] It's like yeah she did seem a little bit more into the arm in the box.

[00:32:24] The arm in the box was very important at the time.

[00:32:28] Yeah and also you know she had to react to it it was trying to choke her so she had a strong reaction.

[00:32:34] The book was not choking her or anything you know their relationship at this point is sort of tentative still they they have a workout together and they talk about how they can't have satisfaction in each other

[00:32:50] and you know he gives her the book and they hug but they are not in full couple mode right he asks her if she has a date for her birthday and she teases him with the thing about her father and he falls for it at first.

[00:33:06] And it's just interesting because in my head Buffy and Angel are this couple but I realize like at this point in the series they aren't really a couple.

[00:33:16] They're having a very non sexual relationship that spike calls out.

[00:33:22] Yeah and it's just like bro you guys love each other like this is your not friends yeah yeah you're not friends and it's just.

[00:33:31] Gosh yeah I always think about there's an episode of Angel where Cordelia is describing Buffy and Angel's relationship

[00:33:41] and she goes they have the forbidden love of all time and that's always the phrase in my head whenever I think about their relationship it's like it's so completely not a good idea for them to be together in every way.

[00:33:57] And they love each other so much it's high tragedy it's Shakespearean it's just makes my head so.

[00:34:06] It's good to see me times it is in the tension between them and like the look on David Boreon as his face as Angel when Buffy says like satisfied you can see him go through like oh really that's not exactly what I would call it.

[00:34:23] It's just so uncomfortable because there is like a lot of chemistry and tension between them and it's gotta be difficult.

[00:34:33] Yeah very difficult I wonder how vampire hormones work yeah I mean they don't have blood that pumps but they must have.

[00:34:44] It's family they've got something they've got something that makes them able to I don't know if we want to get into this but perform.

[00:34:53] Yeah right but there's gotta be some sort of blood equivalent or just magic of glands or.

[00:35:00] I don't know but I do love Buffy's realization when she's like oh I can be in satisfied and she's like we're not having satisfaction in the personal sense.

[00:35:12] She's like nope nope you can't do that back up back up back up your test of all yeah gosh it's so funny though but I do love you know their interactions in this episode.

[00:35:27] And you can tell how much they care about each other and how much especially Buffy means to Angel.

[00:35:34] Well he gives us the whole speech.

[00:35:37] Angel if I'm not the slayer what do I do?

[00:35:40] What do I have to offer?

[00:35:43] Why would you like me?

[00:35:47] I saw you before you became the slayer.

[00:35:51] What?

[00:35:53] I watched you.

[00:35:54] Yeah I'm a stalker.

[00:35:55] And I saw you called.

[00:35:58] It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school.

[00:36:02] You walked down the steps lurking by high school.

[00:36:06] I wasn't ever gonna tell you this.

[00:36:08] I loved you.

[00:36:10] I like.

[00:36:13] Because I could see your heart.

[00:36:19] You held it before you for everyone to see.

[00:36:22] And I worried that it would be bruised or torn.

[00:36:26] And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe.

[00:36:31] To warm it with my own.

[00:36:40] That's beautiful.

[00:36:44] You're taken literally incredibly gross.

[00:36:48] I was just thinking that too.

[00:36:51] I love that.

[00:36:53] Have you ever done that where you have a metaphor and you roll with it for a little bit?

[00:36:57] And then you're like oh no this metaphor is not gonna work out.

[00:37:01] Like this is not coming across how.

[00:37:03] Like I would have taken your heart and warmed it with my heart.

[00:37:07] But we know what he used to.

[00:37:10] And he was like yeah I saw you before you came to Slayer.

[00:37:13] When you were 15 years old.

[00:37:15] And I watched you.

[00:37:17] And you know I saw you called and he basically is like I loved you then.

[00:37:24] Yeah.

[00:37:25] Angel.

[00:37:26] Gross.

[00:37:27] Creepy.

[00:37:28] Like no.

[00:37:29] Especially think back to that buffy that we see in the big pink fluffy coat.

[00:37:36] Licking a lollipop.

[00:37:39] Just like Angel.

[00:37:40] Ew.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:42] Ew.

[00:37:43] Like none of that.

[00:37:44] Buffy now is definitely more mature than the buffy that he apparently fell in love with.

[00:37:50] So that's just something I think we've all collectively agreed to.

[00:37:55] Ignore for the most part.

[00:37:58] Yeah.

[00:37:59] Appreciating their love story.

[00:38:01] It's up there with Edward and Bella on the creepiness faculty.

[00:38:05] That's true.

[00:38:06] At least Edward was 17 when he was turned.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:12] When he meets Bella, when he looks like a 17 year old and he is in high school along with her pretending to be a high schooler.

[00:38:20] Right.

[00:38:21] Whereas Angel looks 24 or 25 when he meets buffy and she's 15 16.

[00:38:28] Like it's already creepy before you even add the 200 years.

[00:38:33] Oh gosh.

[00:38:34] Oh god.

[00:38:35] So funny.

[00:38:36] I don't know how that would well, I mean there are still shows made where there are weird age gaps and stuff and people don't seem to call them out all the time.

[00:38:45] It's a little less frequent than it was in the 90s though.

[00:38:50] But good times.

[00:38:52] All these vampire romances like we were talking about vampire diaries.

[00:38:57] It's always some like several hundred year old vampire and a teenage girl.

[00:39:03] Like the vampires never fall in love with like a full adult woman.

[00:39:07] It's always a teenager.

[00:39:09] Like not even a 20 year old?

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:12] Like a 24 year old?

[00:39:13] You can't do that.

[00:39:14] Why is it a teen?

[00:39:15] And here I am at 51.

[00:39:16] I guess I'm completely out of luck and I'm never going to have a vampire lover.

[00:39:22] Damn.

[00:39:23] Too bad.

[00:39:24] And then I just think back to Kirsten Dunn's character in the interview with the vampire and some of those uncomfortable scenes with Brad Pitt.

[00:39:36] But you know, that was a little different she was supposed to be what 200 something.

[00:39:43] Now that character was meant to be unsettling.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:53] You know, because they turned a child into a vampire and she never, you know, she can never be an adult.

[00:39:59] She's a permanent child and it's supposed to make you incredibly uncomfortable.

[00:40:05] And it does.

[00:40:06] Like that Jane care.

[00:40:07] Anyway, this is not a Twilight podcast but the Jane character that decoded the perpetrator is the Voltery.

[00:40:14] Yeah.

[00:40:15] She's creepy too.

[00:40:16] Not Twilight.

[00:40:17] Twilight is one of my favorite guilty, not so guilty pleasures.

[00:40:21] Those movies are so unintentionally funny.

[00:40:23] But anyway, it's a little creepy but Angel clearly cares very much about Buffy and it is nice for him to kind of reassure her.

[00:40:34] Reassure her like look you were not quote unquote just the slayer.

[00:40:39] Like there is more to you than that.

[00:40:41] And clearly this is a question that Buffy has already been struggling with this season.

[00:40:45] Like how much of a difference am I really making by being here in sunny day.

[00:40:51] And this just is kind of the culmination of all of those worries and concerns that we see in the wish and in gingerbread and throughout this season.

[00:41:03] And I just, it's such a difficult episode to watch and I know intentionally it's that way.

[00:41:11] We are supposed to be feeling kind of helpless I think just as Buffy is but it's just it is so difficult seeing her start to realize that she is losing that strength and that power.

[00:41:27] And you know what is his name that asked that is hitting on Cordelia.

[00:41:33] Oh, that you know what the heck is his name and she's like everybody knows not to take my learning seriously right because she's on the rebound.

[00:41:42] I don't remember his name but yeah the fact that he like shoves Buffy and she hits that concrete bench and I could feel it.

[00:41:50] I was like, oh, I would not be able to walk for a week.

[00:41:54] Like she hits it straight across her back.

[00:41:57] I was like super painful and I like this guy is in high school just casually assaulting women.

[00:42:04] Yeah. And nobody does anything about it.

[00:42:07] It's like what the hell but maybe he doesn't get a name but I love Cordelia.

[00:42:15] Like first of all he's upset with her because he says something like you made me look like a dork in front of my posseer.

[00:42:22] Oh yeah, he says posse.

[00:42:24] So it's just like how dare you hurt his fragile girl ego.

[00:42:30] And she immediately like cuts him down again after that making whatever saying posse and she's I mean she's right if you flirt with someone that doesn't mean that you owe them.

[00:42:44] Anything.

[00:42:46] And he you know she's not good enough for Cordelia so he never should have thought she would give him the time of day because he's clearly dumb that he doesn't get it.

[00:42:58] Just awful.

[00:42:59] And the fact that she says no and she makes it clear like she says her extenuating circumstances.

[00:43:06] She's just like rebound looking up and that's what she intends to be the end of the conversation.

[00:43:12] And the fact that he physically grabs her and pushes her up against is it a tree or a wall?

[00:43:18] The tree I can't remember.

[00:43:20] I think it's a tree.

[00:43:21] Yeah, I don't remember.

[00:43:23] But it's alarming that he got physical with her like that in the first place and obviously it's so buffy can come up and realize her powers are gone.

[00:43:32] Yeah, but it is it's kind of it's disturbing.

[00:43:36] But you know the first time seeing it I was like man man.

[00:43:39] I think when I saw it in the 90s though I was like yeah that's dudes like I think that behavior was very tolerated.

[00:43:48] Oh yeah well and still today rejecting a man at you know a bar or wherever who is clearly hitting on you there's always the risk that somebody's gonna react poorly.

[00:44:03] And that's why women cursing you out or getting physical or you know that's why women constantly resort to saying I have a boyfriend because it's been pretty well documented that men will not respect a no.

[00:44:17] But they will respect another man owns me so yeah and it's just easier.

[00:44:24] It short circuits the whole conversation if you're like oh my boyfriend's expecting me then like a lot of creeps back off because they respect another man more than they respect a woman's right to say no to them.

[00:44:38] And if you don't believe me there are a million videos on Instagram and Tik Tok and YouTube of women trying to politely reject a man and then having to like strenuously reject him.

[00:44:50] And then even being like you don't have to be such a bitka about it yeah yeah.

[00:44:56] Yeah a bitka.

[00:44:59] Well that's one of my favorite.

[00:45:01] The Xander lines.

[00:45:03] Oh gosh but it's true you know like in terms of the fear there's that quote I can't remember it's been recoded so many times at this point that men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid them and will kill them.

[00:45:20] And most women who have been on the dating scene especially as a young adult and an adult have multiple stories about rejecting a guy and them going from being very flattering and polite to rejecting it and them being like you know if you you're fat and ugly anyway or something like that.

[00:45:43] The third is when your when a woman declines to have sex with a man and his response is horror I'm always like no see I didn't have.

[00:45:53] Like you're true like that's not what horror means you're confused but get a dictionary this might I wonder this might be a good time to at least reference a review we got after.

[00:46:08] Last week's I don't want to spend too much time on it but we did get a review that did not like our politics and I am not going to apologize for our politics.

[00:46:19] No and they they did the one thing the reason I'm bringing it up now is because they mentioned that I guess we talked about the notion of the patriarchy.

[00:46:31] And put a little too much credence in the idea of the fact that the patriarchy exists and you know that's understandable that our podcast is certainly not for you but it's ironic because in this episode I was like there's a lot of patriarchal BS that comes up here.

[00:46:54] And you know we see that first with Cordelia and Buffy who usually is you know very capable of coming to the rescue and you know fighting off men that take things a little too far like in a go fish.

[00:47:10] Yeah I have a lot of team members when those guys were bullying Michael the warlock and she all she had to do was show her face and they were like never mind.

[00:47:17] They're scared of her and in this instance seeing Buffy like step in and have her strength gone and the look on her face the confusion when she's pulling you know on his arm with all of her strength and she's just like what the hell.

[00:47:33] Like why is he not flipping over right now what is going on and that shove like that is a rude awakening for her.

[00:47:41] And I think intentionally I think that there is a theme about you know patriarchal influences in this episode in the dating culture you know that we see with the watchers council with Buffy's dad mentioned and her abandonment issues and she's got to be a little bit more careful.

[00:48:02] And she's got issues and him not showing up and Giles and his father like relationship it's hard to ignore in this episode.

[00:48:13] I think the watch is helpful is basically a stand-in for the patriarchy right the patriarchy is an ambiguous abstract concept and there is no leader of the patriarchy who's like giving marching orders to people to put it in place right it's the self perpetuating.

[00:48:31] Sort of super system that lies over the top of our culture and and it's it's just a word that we use for this collection of beliefs and behaviors that happen.

[00:48:43] It's not there's not like an actual like written down book of like patriarchy although there was that book the code in the 90s that a lot of men were reading that was like that was basically the patriarchy rules but.

[00:48:56] The council because of how they are mysterious distant withholding of information withholding of power how they how they treat the slayer like expendable parts like well she'll die we'll get another one that's fine and not as a person and not as a human and that Giles having affection for Buffy is like grounds for being fired.

[00:49:25] It's it's like you've betrayed the patriarchy because you're siding with oh my god whoever that person was who left us that review is going to hate this episode even more I know they're probably not listening.

[00:49:37] I don't really think they listened to the last one but yeah i thought good it it is very much like the patriarchy like rejecting even men who go against the root that sort of unspoken rules of patriarchy and.

[00:49:54] And you know they use violence to and financial power to enforce the rules right so Giles gets fired and Buffy gets tested violently and then when she's angry about it quit who laughs at her he's like ho ho ho color for girl.

[00:50:16] Yeah I love that exchange though I want to kill him on Buffy's back as a congratulations again and she's just like bite me which is classic I love it I love it so much exhibited extraordinary courage and clear headiness in battle the council is very pleased good slave I get a gold star I understand that you're upset you understand nothing.

[00:50:45] You said that monster lose and he came after my mother you think the test was unfair I think you better leave town before I get my strength back.

[00:50:56] But not in the business of fair mess summers fighting a war you're waiting a war she's fighting there is a difference Mr. Giles if you don't mind the test is done we're finished not quite she passed you didn't.

[00:51:10] This is not the only one who must perform in this situation I've recommended to the council and they agreed that you be relieved of your duties as watch her immediately your fire.

[00:51:23] On what grounds your affection for your charge has rendered you incapable of clear and impartial judgment you have a father's love for the child.

[00:51:35] That is useless to the cause it would be best if you had no further contact with the slave I'm not going anywhere now well I didn't expect you adhere to that however if you interfere with the new watch or counter man his authority in any way it will be dealt with are we clear very clear.

[00:51:59] Congratulations again.

[00:52:04] Fight me.

[00:52:07] Yes well colorful good so condescending I hate Quentin I hate him just awful but and I think I'm sure there are some people either listening or in the buffy verse that don't necessarily think it's a perfect

[00:52:28] perfect analogy or comparison with the watchers council as a patriarchal figure but it's made pretty clear to us throughout the series that it is made up majority of men the one female watcher that we see or have any indication of turns evil and is utterly terrible she had been fired

[00:52:57] and in this episode in particular there's this ongoing theme of fathers and even in the season I won't mention too much but the relationship between faith and the mayor he kind of becomes this father figure

[00:53:12] and in this episode you know not only do we have Quentin Travers and the watchers council trying to exert their authority and their power over buffy and giles being you know thrown out and basically you know written off because he subverts their power

[00:53:34] we also see Craylic attempting to kind of sire buffy and turn her into a vampire and become a type of father figure in that sense and it's just you know that cannot be unintentional with the way that these writers operate yeah

[00:53:52] yeah and I do you know and buffy's dad not showing up for her you know ice cupades tradition that they typically do right because he has to do something financial

[00:54:05] quarterly figures or something have to be yeah reviewer some and he doesn't even have the good grace to phone Buffy and talk to her directly right he sends a note it is so cowardly sad it's really sad

[00:54:21] awful Buffy's father and Buffy's age in my opinion oh yeah he's like he's basically and you know I don't know how much of it is intentional or not but I think a lot of it is for Buffy's father

[00:54:35] to be removed from her life but he's basically abandoned his child and it's no wonder that Buffy kind of has this gaping hole and desire for that sounds weird

[00:54:47] but a desire for a father figure and Giles is protective and respectful of her and you know she sees him as a dad and I that scene where she is relaying to Giles that you know her dad's not going to make it but you know like going to the ice cupades is usually something that families do together and if someone were free they take their daughter or their student or their slayer

[00:55:16] like kind of telling him like you're basically kind of like my dad like what you take me to the ice cupades which is so sweet that she's even bringing it up to him and you can tell the way that she is presenting it she's still kind of you know nervous or anxious about it

[00:55:33] and you know it's no question that Giles does feel that way about her in his response seems to indicate that he knows that that will be seen as a problem with the watcher's council

[00:55:44] and the way he reacts to her in this episode as she's bringing up you know her concerns about her lack of power and something happening I hate having to watch him

[00:55:57] do I go it all sort itself out I'm sure you know we'll figure it out I tried to remember what it was like the first time I watched this

[00:56:06] and I didn't know Giles's role and we didn't know that those were watchers right at first you just think Quentin and his two lackeys are just up to no good

[00:56:16] the villains of the week yeah and and you know it gets revealed at some point that that Quentin is the head of the watcher's council

[00:56:24] and that he knows Giles and that Giles is in on all of this but at first it just seems like this crazy mystery

[00:56:31] and Giles is like weirdly not that bugged by it and and I think that is even harder for Buffy in a way

[00:56:42] than losing her powers is she's like why isn't Giles upset like doesn't he care how much this is bothering me

[00:56:49] and of course he's trying to act like it's not that big of a deal because he doesn't want to give away his role in it but

[00:56:55] and also because he has very mixed feelings about it we know that at by the end of the episode we know that he didn't want to do this

[00:57:00] and he felt like he had to and it was a real it was a real struggle for him

[00:57:06] it just seems absolutely barbaric yeah how many slayers have been killed this way right like how many slayers don't pass this test

[00:57:16] and then the way the council looks at it is like we just get another slayer we start over

[00:57:21] and they don't think it's a link yeah okay all right you know get a better slayer next time

[00:57:25] they're completely dispensable I kept thinking about the way that a lot of athletes are treated

[00:57:35] you know they they get all this attention they get trained they get you know presented to play

[00:57:43] in these top arenas think about like Olympic gymnasts right like these these

[00:57:47] sometimes pre-teen girls whose bodies have been wrecked by what they're doing and they bring back the gold

[00:57:55] and then what happened you know when Simone Biles took a step back and said I can't perform

[00:58:01] and the world got angry at her it was like we don't care if we you think you're gonna get hurt

[00:58:06] we want to see you flip around in the sky and that's that was insane that's a modern real example

[00:58:13] of how the patriarchy thought that Simone Biles' body belonged to them to dispose of how they want to

[00:58:19] and I also think about like how many you know musical artists have been taken advantage of by

[00:58:25] the gosh yes patriarchy right by like powerful and over sexualized like poor Britney Spears Christina

[00:58:31] Aguilar just the first two that come to mind because of you know my age they were hugely popular

[00:58:38] at that time and you know I think even back to Annette on the Mickey Mouse Club and how I remember

[00:58:47] you know reading articles about the fixation on her and the curve and her sweater once she

[00:58:53] developed and her name stretch out like different things like that like it is always

[00:58:58] been business meetings with a bunch of men and suits talking about Annette Funicelo's breasts

[00:59:03] and you know this was considered fine and she was supposed to just like sit there and be fine

[00:59:08] with it and behave and be sweet and compliant yeah and we are not that far removed from

[00:59:18] really outrageous behavior I always tell people that you know in where I am two DAs before

[00:59:30] our current one who is in power there was a district attorney who made the women in the office

[00:59:38] sit on his lap before he would give them their paycheck that's um and really blatantly illegal

[00:59:45] but he probably got away with it for a long time oh yeah and still even when I was

[00:59:52] in that office I would hear stories from different people who were around back then many of them

[00:59:59] men who were like aha isn't it funny how awful things used to be or how different things are now

[01:00:07] and she's like this is exhausting come on and I think Buffy it's inevitable that there's

[01:00:14] going to be some discussion about the patriarchy and patriarchal figures and sexism when the whole

[01:00:22] focus of Buffy as a show the whole premise was putting a blonde you know attractive teenage girl

[01:00:31] in the position of power when she was usually the weak one who was killed off to give her strength

[01:00:36] and kind of subvert society's expectations on what strength meant and it's appropriate that this

[01:00:43] is happening when you know the spice girls were we're around and there was this whole girl power

[01:00:50] movement yeah the late 90s was the night really good for the girl power movement I think it was

[01:00:56] overly white but you know now that I look back on it white feminism and I'm like we kind of left

[01:01:02] out the intersectionality part back then but definitely it was at for me as a white woman it was a great

[01:01:08] time because I felt like it was the beginning of a future where women were going to be equals and

[01:01:15] then you know I fast forward to you know Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign and all the just

[01:01:23] unmitigated hatred she got for the crime of being educated smart and ambitious

[01:01:29] yeah the number of people's complaint about women's voices being shrill or the I was just reading

[01:01:37] the other day about how there's all these studies that show that women speak less than men

[01:01:45] men on average say like thousands more words a day but there's this prevailing myth that women

[01:01:53] speak like twice as much as men and that men are always having to listen to women and it's just

[01:01:59] not true like it's factually inaccurate yeah there's a similar related study um about

[01:02:09] women and you know the composition of a group whether that be a classroom or a office or a

[01:02:20] profession and if women make up 30 percent of whatever group men will typically and statistically

[01:02:33] perceive women as outnumbering them and that so like I devoured that I can't remember the specifics

[01:02:42] I can find it in post-alink in the show notes if you know people want to read it but stuff like that

[01:02:49] this is a current study this was in the last five years yeah this is not you know back in the 50s

[01:02:54] this is now this is all happening now and we now they're so conscious you know there's the

[01:03:01] child white movement and there's you know overturning roe versus Wade there are all these things

[01:03:07] happening to move women's rights well in backwards I don't want to I don't want to go

[01:03:14] too deep into politics but I also can't help but think of Katie Britt the senator from Alabama who

[01:03:22] gave her response to President Biden's state of the union from her kitchen using what a lot of

[01:03:30] people refer to as quote unquote fundee voice that fundamentalist question affect that some people

[01:03:39] put on that softer and more dramatic and you know saying that she's proud to represent

[01:03:48] Alabama but more importantly she's a wife and a mother and look I get it like if you for most women

[01:03:57] for most women that have children I would assume that you value your children over your career

[01:04:03] that if there was some sort of choice coming down to it you would clearly choose your child

[01:04:09] but the way that they presented that yeah I would hope that the same would be true of men

[01:04:16] that they would choose their children or their family over their job but the societal expectation is

[01:04:22] that let's say that there is a need a child has a need and there's two working parents most people

[01:04:29] will expect the woman to give up her career and stay home with the child or the sick relative

[01:04:34] or whatever it is and the man to keep working still today you hear when men are with their children

[01:04:41] and mom's not around and mom is off doing something men are referred to as quote unquote baby sitting

[01:04:48] their own kids by some people and I feel like if I were a father I would find that incredibly insulting

[01:04:53] yeah that's a fact of parenting my children you know like that type of thing that's why it's impossible

[01:05:00] to ignore these flags in this episode because on top of everything we've already discussed

[01:05:07] there are also so many issues that you know run pretty deep in our society like we've acknowledged

[01:05:14] that there is this sadistic serial killer who specifically hunted women as most of them do

[01:05:20] buffy experiences cat-calling from strangers and that harassment that I think every every woman

[01:05:29] has experienced at least once we're all familiar with that feeling in that situation and wondering

[01:05:37] if it's safe to respond if you just keep your head down or pretend you're listening to your music

[01:05:42] and you know we see a quote call that yeah yes I've done that for so many things for once yeah

[01:05:49] or suddenly you need to go to the store that's closest to you like there's all these things going

[01:05:55] here and look around for a while I'm gonna hop in this bookstore and see if this guy follows me

[01:06:00] like that is just a reality that a lot of women face and I think it's you know most men that

[01:06:07] I know and I feel like most men associated with our we're all you know I don't know anyone that

[01:06:14] doesn't recognize this in our podcasted podcasted community recognize and listen when women in

[01:06:22] their lives and women in our community are talking about our own experiences but there's still people

[01:06:28] I think that you know I've heard I don't know how many people say well cat-calling is a compliment

[01:06:34] oh I know it's like no it isn't it's nice like nope nope it's not threatening and scary

[01:06:40] I even the most open-minded left leaning you know quote unquote woke men I think even you know

[01:06:50] with the best of intentions and the trying the hardest to understand do not understand the prevalence

[01:06:58] of the behaviors and the the constancy of it and how it exists as just this fabric this background

[01:07:07] of women's lives it's all the time like I've had experiences where something happened to me like

[01:07:13] I got flashed on the subway and I didn't tell anyone about it until something came up and it came

[01:07:19] up right until like somebody made me remember it and I was like oh that happened to me the other day

[01:07:23] and one of my good friends was like I can't believe you didn't tell me about that and I was like

[01:07:27] if I told someone every time every time that happens I'd be that girl who's always talking about it

[01:07:34] you know it's like yeah you just you just let it go because it's groped or something either in

[01:07:41] public or in an office setting or in a bar and a social setting like it's it's something I kind of

[01:07:49] see it as you know I have no idea what it is like to exist in our society in our country as a

[01:07:57] person of color I have absolutely no way of knowing that all I can do is listen to

[01:08:04] experiences of people who are in that position and you know trust their experiences

[01:08:11] and you know hold of those if you hear a story from one person then you could be skeptical you

[01:08:18] could be like okay that person says this happened to them maybe that's a fluke you hear it from

[01:08:23] a second person you hear it from a third person you hear it from a fourth person like listen

[01:08:29] not all these people are making it's like that amazing New York Post cover during when the Bill

[01:08:35] Cosby scandal was really big and it said he said she said she said she said she said she said

[01:08:42] she said she said she said it was like 47 she says and I wanted to frame and I remember having

[01:08:48] an argument with someone who was like these women just want Bill Cosby's money and to be famous

[01:08:53] and I was like maybe one of them does but you really think all of these women all of them

[01:08:59] got together and had a similar story because they all want to get famous for being raped by Bill Cosby

[01:09:05] like that's not remotely a logical thing to believe like you're lying to yourself

[01:09:10] that's come up a couple of times in recent years with various prominent figures in our country

[01:09:17] and I need to keep my mouth shut or I will never stop talking about it and that will be the rest

[01:09:23] of this podcast but it is which brings us back to it's the background radiation of women's lives

[01:09:29] and in order to function and be a person and have a life you can't focus on it all the time or you'll

[01:09:35] go insane and so and Buffy is typically you know if she's not exempt from those types of

[01:09:45] experiences it's just that she usually has more power than the typical teenage girl would in her

[01:09:55] experience to respond to it and seeing how she behaves and how she responds in this situation

[01:10:02] shows not only Buffy but the audience just how much she relies on her slayer powers and how much

[01:10:10] they kind of insulate her from these types of experiences and like the cat calling when she

[01:10:17] just kind of keeps her head down and runs and starts wearing her hood her little red hood

[01:10:24] which clearly is you know a symbolic and calling back to little red riding head it's just

[01:10:32] you know it's it's scary and she understandably is terrified that she no longer has this power behind

[01:10:42] her you know one other thing that I did want to talk about before I forget is Cordelia in this

[01:10:52] episode because I absolutely love that scene that's a pretty simple scene when you know Buffy

[01:11:01] comes to the realization that Giles has drugged her and she's upset she's in the library and

[01:11:10] you know kind of Cordelia walks in at the worst possible time yeah and Buffy is clearly hurt

[01:11:21] and I love that Cordelia says um yeah Buffy says I don't want to she say I don't even know you

[01:11:30] or something like that I don't I think she just says I don't know you I don't know you

[01:11:34] and Cordelia is just like something take her memory it's Giles she's like he hangs out here a lot

[01:11:42] and you can see you know Cordelia reads the room and Buffy just kind of very quietly asks Cordelia

[01:11:49] to drive her home and Cordelia without question is immediate like sure of course yeah like I

[01:11:55] will do what you need and I just the way that they start to develop her character in this series

[01:12:03] and throughout this season is so well done because you see the the subtle changes the empathy

[01:12:09] and the true Cordelia coming through and I really really enjoy that part the strength of the

[01:12:15] episode yeah and even though she doesn't like supporting she's an ally they're not friends

[01:12:22] but they are they do understand each other to a certain amount and I think there's a lot of

[01:12:30] respect on Cordelia's part for Buffy it's very that's very nice I will say there is one exchange

[01:12:40] in this episode with Buffy and Giles that always makes my blood boil a little bit

[01:12:45] and I get that it's supposed to add to you know I get the frustration in the episode but it's when

[01:12:52] you know she's trying to convince Giles after she's been tossed yeah by the guy that was

[01:12:57] hitting on Cordelia and she's just like I have no strength I have no coordination I throw knives

[01:13:04] like and he interrupts her and says a girl yeah and Buffy says like I'm not the slayer and I was like

[01:13:10] I can throw knives Giles like I'm a girl like that part just rubs me the wrong way but I think it

[01:13:18] also plays into this intentional theme throughout of patriarchy and kind of the diminishing of

[01:13:29] young women and you know not prioritizing their thoughts their feelings their safety when

[01:13:36] the slayers are the one who are essentially responsible for saving the world and the Watcher's

[01:13:41] council has absolutely zero empathy or respect for that really the way that they withhold

[01:13:50] information from the slayer is infuriating to me there are things that she would benefit from knowing

[01:14:00] and we know that they have resources and they don't employ them to help her on a day to day basis

[01:14:08] they send one Watcher and he has information that he sort of doles out to her on an as needed basis

[01:14:16] but that's the first example I think it was when Gwendolyn Post like this rogue Watcher which is

[01:14:21] almost as dangerous as a rogue slayer has gone evil and Giles makes the joke like the quip oh

[01:14:29] this where they sent a memo yeah you know but like and she's like great guys yeah that would be

[01:14:35] really important for us to keep in mind yeah but also just the system the way their lives are set

[01:14:41] up that Gwendolyn Post knew that she could just waltz in there with her confidence and just

[01:14:48] you know insert herself into their lives and it worked it's it's horrifying it reminds me of

[01:14:55] I don't know what show it was some TV show where some con artist was like oh just put on a

[01:15:01] baseball cap and carry a clipboard and you can get into anywhere and I was like you know it's kind of

[01:15:06] true it's true like act like you're supposed to be there and there's an only murders in the building

[01:15:11] bit from this last season with Martin Schwart Steve Martin and Selena Gomez their characters are

[01:15:18] trying to get into the the back of this store and he's just like oh I know what we need we just need a

[01:15:25] ladder and so they walk in carrying a ladder and they're like oh we're here to work on

[01:15:30] stuff and it basically works so it's that same kind of yeah just what's the idea

[01:15:39] but the Watchers Council should just be a lot more responsible than like the proprietor of some

[01:15:44] store right like the things they're dealing with are literally world ending and they don't have

[01:15:52] the respect for this layer to you know she hasn't even met the rest of the council she's never spoken

[01:15:59] to them before like if that's crazy um one what's funny too is this this ritual that Giles

[01:16:13] is talking to you refers to it as an archaic exercise and cruelty which is could not be more

[01:16:22] appropriate that's and the title right like and the title that it's given in the episode is

[01:16:30] the crucia mentum which in Latin literally means like torture torment pain oh god and

[01:16:39] you know it's not you know challenge or something like that and it straight up acknowledges

[01:16:48] from the writers obviously and the Watchers Council like this is not just some exercise this is not

[01:16:55] just some challenge they know exactly how cruel this is to do too the fact that her mother got

[01:17:04] kidnapped and wrapped up in it and that Quentin doesn't even apologize for that he done blink

[01:17:11] he's just like oh yeah sometimes that happens incredible it's okay he's yeah he is in my opinion scum

[01:17:20] yeah he's really awful he that actor too is another one of those is like hey I know that guy

[01:17:26] he's been a lot of things so many little things i'm sure much more enjoyable with his other

[01:17:31] movies yeah he does a good job at being this stuffy british villains yeah um i'm gonna go ahead and

[01:17:39] call him a villain i we learn a lot more about the Watchers Council in future seasons and uh there's

[01:17:47] not really anything that ever makes me like them well it's scary too to think you know I remember

[01:17:53] watching it the first time when Giles has buffy focusing on the center the flaw in the center of

[01:17:59] that crystal and realizing that it was intentional and he injects her with something we don't know

[01:18:07] what at that point i remember being absolutely horrified yeah and just so upset i was like what is

[01:18:13] happening like this can't be good and one of the things that always sticks with me

[01:18:20] watching this episode is how relatively easy it seems for a slayers powers to be taken away

[01:18:29] and if i'm buffy i am thinking about you know the council's ability to control me and take away my

[01:18:37] powers after this you know it is always in the back of my mind and it's just what it's unsettling

[01:18:46] thinking about you know if somebody sneaks up on her or somebody in the Watchers Council once

[01:18:51] to get rid of her if she's not doing what they say or what you know they advise it's not that

[01:18:58] difficult for them to kind of rip away part of her identity at this point and it gives a whole new

[01:19:07] perspective at least in my opinion on the series and the stakes if you're buffy yeah and watching

[01:19:14] her go through this it's interesting that you know giles basically betrays her for lack of a better

[01:19:22] word in this episode and it has this effect of squaring them for her keeping angels return a secret

[01:19:31] from him you know he got so angry at her when she did that and said you know you don't respect me

[01:19:37] or the role i play and here he is playing his role and that's the problem and

[01:19:43] you can see on her face first she's so angry at giles and can't forgive him and then

[01:19:51] at the end when Quentin says you have a father's love for the child and then you watch a change go

[01:19:56] over buffy where she does forgive him because of that love and and you can tell that in that moment

[01:20:05] giles also has forgiven her that they are they have reached a new understanding of how important

[01:20:13] they argue each other and that's the one good thing that comes out of this episode

[01:20:18] that's true they both finally kind of fully acknowledge the you know the care and their relationship

[01:20:28] and it's nice that is the one nice thing yeah that we get to see also i love you know me i love

[01:20:35] joys and i love how proud she is of buffy right like this is a mother who's always wanted to have

[01:20:43] reasons to be proud of her daughter right like she's she's always wanted buffy to do well in school

[01:20:48] and and be a happy kid and all this stuff and then unlike willow's mom yeah who doesn't seem to

[01:20:53] care what willow does as long as it doesn't bother her and joys you know she's trying so hard

[01:20:59] to be on board with this later thing and you know in gingerbread she tried to go with buffy and see

[01:21:05] her in action and that had mixed results that was so cute and in this episode buffy gets to save joys

[01:21:12] joys gets to see just how clever buffy is and and how good she is at what she does and at the end when

[01:21:21] you know buffy's hanging out with her friends and willows in another horrible hat um

[01:21:27] joys is just so cute about it she's like oh she was so clever like she's so excited to brag

[01:21:34] about buffy she's bragging no adorable it makes me love joys like a whole new level of loving

[01:21:41] joys because she's a braised mom yeah she loves buffy she had you know a little bit of a bumpy time

[01:21:52] adjusting to it kind of going through the five stages of grief and we talked about that in the

[01:21:57] parallels to you know coming out and coming out experiences and apparent you know reconciling

[01:22:06] and joys clearly prioritizes her daughter you know joys is clearly proud of buffy especially we

[01:22:14] see when she gets her amazing SAT results joys is thrilled for her and happy at the prospect of

[01:22:22] her possibly being being able to have something resembling a normal life and it's very clear

[01:22:30] especially in this episode when we see buffy's dad being completely absent and not really taking

[01:22:37] her feelings into account by sending a message along with her mom but joys is all in for buffy

[01:22:46] yeah and that's very clear and buffy clearly you know her reaction when Craig like

[01:22:51] sends a picture that he has her mom which also I don't understand how he appears in the picture

[01:22:57] because it seems pretty clear in this universe that vampires do not appear in mirrors and photos

[01:23:05] I think they appear in photos is it because I'm trying to remember I could be getting it mixed up

[01:23:11] with another I think they appear in photos okay but importantly most of those photos were just

[01:23:21] of joys and of joys yeah well the first photo was of Craig and joys right that was the one left

[01:23:27] at their house but then when she goes into the room with all the polaroids it's so funny polaroid film

[01:23:32] you know it was discontinued polaroid without a business and then it was reinvested in and now you

[01:23:37] can get polaroid film again but it's really expensive that makes sense it's like three dollars a shot

[01:23:43] so every time I look at that room I'm like oh my god that's hundreds of hundreds of dollars in

[01:23:49] polaroid film it's so I'm probably getting that mixed up with vampire lore in another

[01:23:55] in another vampire universe fictional universe yeah but it it's so scary for you know her mom

[01:24:03] to be taken by this joys handled it really well I have to say that whole time that she was with

[01:24:08] Craig like she wasn't crying she wasn't hyperventilating like I don't think I could have

[01:24:14] remained as calm in the face of someone saying they were gonna turn my daughter and then set her

[01:24:20] on me to eat me yeah and I would have freaked out I mean I just think it makes it extra clear in

[01:24:27] this episode that Buffy does not only get her strength and her power from being a slayer like

[01:24:33] Joyce is a strong woman a strong figure in Buffy's life and you know the few times we see her up

[01:24:44] against anything supernatural she really does handle it surprisingly well like even though

[01:24:51] the Deadman's party episode is a more humorous one she pretty much rolls with the punches and goes

[01:24:59] with the flow in that episode she you know and she deals with spike as a vampire and relatively well

[01:25:07] with angel so you know Joyce is definitely a a good strong female role model for Buffy I love

[01:25:16] Joyce oh gosh but yeah if there's anything that's gonna motivate Buffy to come and you know deal

[01:25:27] with Craig like it's taking her mom or one of her friends but especially her mother who you know

[01:25:35] and Buffy's eyes is probably purely like the most innocent person and there's gotta be guilt that

[01:25:42] she feels and getting her mom wrapped up into anything like this yeah so well played and of course

[01:25:49] he has mommy issues so he had to take Buffy's mom so yeah there's that mother

[01:25:58] may I tell you mother my own mother was a person with no self respect for her own so she tried

[01:26:08] to take mine 10 years old she had the scissors you wouldn't believe I love to pull the right sound

[01:26:18] but she's dead to me now mostly because I killed an a her but also because I know

[01:26:27] won't be alone much longer I'll have your daughter I won't kill her I'll just make it like me

[01:26:36] different she'll go to sleep and when she wakes up your face will be the first thing she eats

[01:26:47] I have a problem with mothers I'm aware of that it's an excellently delivered speech he's such a good

[01:26:59] though he's really he's really fantastic Jeff Cobra salute you you're so good at being just evil and

[01:27:08] enjoy it yeah he's amazing too but he like that speech and the way that you know he deals with Buffy

[01:27:18] as soon as she is in the house with him it is so like I get such slasher yeah oh when she holds

[01:27:27] the cross up to him and then some puts it on himself and is like oh yeah a little lower getting

[01:27:33] like a sexual thrill out of being burned by the cross that is one of the scariest moments I've ever

[01:27:39] seen and she's so disgusted and jealous be deterred before by a cross we've seen plenty of scary

[01:27:48] vampires you know show that it has somewhat of an effect on them and he is just crazy he's enjoying

[01:27:58] so he's both the saddest animus kiss oh yeah I've a you know a scene in a horror film where

[01:28:06] the you know maybe the final girl has stabbed the killer or something and they just like

[01:28:14] pull the knife in oh yeah doesn't seem to you know deterred there's an amazing scene in Lord of the

[01:28:22] Rings in one of the Lord of the Rings movies I think the first one where an orc gets

[01:28:27] speared yep and then he pulls himself forward on the spear to get to

[01:28:33] Erie Gordon maybe or Boramir I think I can see that in my head it is so it might be just

[01:28:40] ing I think it's the Boramir scene at the end of season one I mean of of the first movie of

[01:28:45] fellowship with the ring and it is so terrifying because you're like this it's unsealing this person's

[01:28:53] hatred or this orcs hatred is stronger than their you know urge for self preservation their pain

[01:29:01] response like they want to kill me so much they don't care how much it hurts them and with

[01:29:06] Kralik it's even worse because he's like yeah give it to me like he's into it yeah and you could

[01:29:12] see how Buffy is both terrified by this and disgusted by it it's like oh yeah the

[01:29:20] pulsiveness of his behavior reads all over her face her reaction to it she's like oh yeah

[01:29:26] cheese dude well and there are so many parts of this that feel like you know a horror movie like

[01:29:33] Buffy walking down the streets alone at night and you hear him creepily humming oh god yeah that's

[01:29:41] first before you see him it's like you know you can think of a couple different whistles and horror

[01:29:47] movies that are exceptionally creepy and you know she's at one point she's screaming and running

[01:29:55] down the middle of the street trying to get cars to help her which is you know classic horror movie

[01:30:02] scene and then there's the whole abandoned house and having to be chased and fight throughout

[01:30:09] this house and it's just so well done and I know at least part of it in my brain is my association

[01:30:16] of ceremonial goler with scream and um I know what you did last summer I know you did last summer

[01:30:23] yeah yeah which came out around the same time so I know there's at least part of that but Buffy

[01:30:28] is an excellent final girl like that comparison I would imagine had to be intentional because of his

[01:30:37] you know the human components of him make him so much more terrifying than just a vampire unleashed

[01:30:47] on her she's dealt with that plenty of times but this one is different he's he's monstrous as a human

[01:30:54] and he just happens to be an actual monster at this point but it's so well done so well done

[01:31:03] so good poor Buffy so that her birthday obviously is a little rough and she you know at the beginning

[01:31:14] zander says something like we're still talking party right I mean you know what do you think some

[01:31:19] of us still love to relish celebrating in the birth of the buff and she's just like no no like oh

[01:31:27] no I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor they tend to go badly monster's

[01:31:32] crash people die which is true and then of course this episode is no different and her birthday is

[01:31:40] horrible and she says at the end you know nothing's really gonna change the important thing is that I

[01:31:45] kept up my special birthday tradition of God wrenching misery and horror and she's right like

[01:31:53] she's it's terrible every every year on her birthday that she can't look forward to it

[01:32:02] poor Buffy the other thing that I had noted were just a couple of quotes that I really enjoyed

[01:32:09] one of course Oz like I don't know if I've ever gotten more of a stone or vibe from him then when

[01:32:14] he said ice is cool it's water but it's not yeah that was definitely a story man

[01:32:20] I was like how high are you and the quote that Buffy says you know or what if I just become pathetic hanging

[01:32:32] out at the old slayers home talking pupils ears off about my glory days showing them Mr.

[01:32:37] pointy this state I had bronzed which I love I love that that's where her brain goes to I also

[01:32:44] like that as episode because mr. pointy was Kendra's steak but she gave Buffy I know it's nice

[01:32:50] the Buffy still has a poor Kendra we hardly knew he and then I have spoilery notes of course

[01:32:58] but I did enjoy the end of the episode this is one of my favorite uh in scenes when Buffy is you

[01:33:07] know still getting her power back and her strength back and she can't quite open the jar of peanut

[01:33:13] butter and zander's like give me a hand with that little lady and then she hands it over to him

[01:33:20] and he can't he cannot open it he cannot open it and he turns to Willow he's like we need me a hand

[01:33:27] with that I love that because I would have been pissed if zander was able to open that jar of peanut

[01:33:31] butter yeah this is much funnier yeah this is a much better much more on much more result I wonder

[01:33:37] if that was the original written thing or if in the moment they were like you know what zander

[01:33:41] shouldn't be able to open it the only other thing that I had written down was you know the the

[01:33:46] issues of Buffy and her father figures throughout the series and how even back in season one which

[01:33:55] we didn't cover on here but in the episode Nightmares it's made very apparent that Buffy worries about

[01:34:02] you know her dad not really caring about her and worries about her parents divorce being her own

[01:34:08] fault so this is you know one of those themes that really is carried on throughout the series

[01:34:16] and poor Buffy yeah I'm glad she has giles and her gang yeah her chosen family which is important

[01:34:29] shall we get into some trivia okay so this episode obviously as we've discussed takes place on

[01:34:43] January 19th which is Buffy's birthday and traditionally in the series these episodes

[01:34:49] focusing on her birthday are the 12th 13th or 14th episode of each season that's when they typically

[01:34:55] celebrate so in surprise a new man blood ties and older and far away those are the additional

[01:35:04] episodes where Buffy's birthday is the focus and this is slightly spoilish but this is the only time

[01:35:12] throughout the series that spike is not in one way or another present for Buffy's birthday oh

[01:35:19] oh cool and I miss him so much he'll be back the story had the working title of 18 as it is set

[01:35:32] around Buffy's 18th birthday and in at least in our culture 18 is a big deal because you become

[01:35:37] as Willis has able to vote able to be drafted etc etc it's very appropriate speaking of Willis

[01:35:47] so in a deleted scene Buffy lists off some good things about being a normal girl it's an

[01:35:53] exchange between her and Willow and Buffy says I mean there's a plus side to being a regular girl

[01:35:58] the whole not bleeding killing and dying experience and Willow says as for example

[01:36:03] and Buffy says then there's buying outfits without worrying if they're good for bleeding killing

[01:36:08] and dying in there's a lot of good to it and I love how practical she sees it except so many of

[01:36:15] her outfits are not practical for bleeding killing and dying not at all like some of those tops

[01:36:22] that she wears which I would never be able to wear that are just like held together with string yeah

[01:36:29] like little ribbons and satin and embroidery it's exciting in that good luck you're gonna snag

[01:36:36] that the second that you pull your stake out of your pocket it's just gonna rip that embroidery right

[01:36:41] all right David Fury the writer of this episode revealed that the name Zachary Kraylick came from

[01:36:47] his own nephews name additionally Jeff Cobra who plays Kraylick returns to play the recurring

[01:36:52] character Rack in season six that is also a scary character yeah I hope David Fury

[01:37:00] nephews only has his name in common with yeah Zachary Kraylick because that's intense like G

[01:37:09] thanks uncle David making me into a little bit of a partner I'll never live it down yeah

[01:37:16] and also according to Fury the original idea for this episode included Buffy being drugged by

[01:37:23] the council and hallucinating imagining her friends and family as vampires however this was

[01:37:30] ultimately abandoned because it was considered to be too close to the premise of the wish and on top

[01:37:37] of that Christine Sutherland could not stand the vampire makeup so that was scratch I love that I

[01:37:44] I mean so glad I never had to see Joyce as a vampire I know vampire Joyce sounds awful thank you

[01:37:50] that would crush Buffy uh David Fury discussing the character of Quentin Travers in the DVD

[01:37:56] commentary said that he wanted a very British name and combined the names of Quentin Crisp and

[01:38:02] PL Travers the author of Mary Poppins I have to say a British sound speaking of names

[01:38:09] that the name David Fury is awesome but it's such a good name that's a really good name I wonder if

[01:38:14] that's a pin name or if that's his actual name given name yeah in a way pretty fantastic

[01:38:24] so we've reached that part of the episode where I ask you the question does it still slay

[01:38:35] oh yeah you know I don't know if my answer will ever be no maybe more than once or twice but

[01:38:41] this episode I think is one that is severely underrated in the Buffyverse it's crucial to the series

[01:38:52] in a lot of ways it's got this very compelling villain so I think it 100% still slays it's something

[01:39:02] I would never skip on a rewatch for sure no and in fact I sometimes have just gone straight to

[01:39:09] this episode to watch it because sometimes I'm just in the mood for this episode I love her

[01:39:15] resourcefulness in the face of overwhelming odds it never gets old to me so it's less it's a powerful

[01:39:24] one that's for sure all right we're gonna take a little break and be back with some news for once

[01:39:30] and we're back and it's time for just a little bit of news so we do have some interesting news this

[01:39:43] time around something to commemorate back on March 10th you may have seen our Instagram post

[01:39:51] celebrating a very special day in Buffy history it was the 27th anniversary of Buffy's series premiere

[01:39:59] so Buffy premiered to an audience of 3.29 million households on the WB on March 10th of 1997

[01:40:08] with its first two episodes welcome to the Hellmouth and the harvest airing back-to-back

[01:40:14] and on the original airing of this episode the WB had a teaser that was basically briefing the

[01:40:21] audience on the history of past slayers known as the history of the slayer it revealed horrific

[01:40:29] events in towns around the country that mysteriously stopped when a particular woman arrived and this

[01:40:38] teaser for some reason does not appear in syndication when the episodes are aired today or on the DVD

[01:40:45] and I had not seen it until this past weekend and we have shared that on our Instagram so make sure to

[01:40:53] head to our Instagram at still slangcast to check out the history of the slayer teaser and let us

[01:41:00] know what you think because it's definitely a little different than what we're used to from Buffy

[01:41:05] I think it's great but it's unintentionally hilarious yeah it's it's it's an interesting one

[01:41:14] that's for sure so Emma Caulfield who plays on yanka slash onya recently revealed that she has

[01:41:23] MS and she talked to people magazine about her journey with MS after keeping the diagnosis

[01:41:27] a secret for some time they have an exclusive interview with her and she said I'm lucky to be where I

[01:41:33] am I'm very aware that with MS everything could change tomorrow the Buffy the vampire slayer alum

[01:41:38] who was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2010 tells people magazine I have a few people in my life

[01:41:44] who have MS and it is a mysterious disease there's no cure there are treatments that can help slow down

[01:41:53] the symptoms and help people live a longer and fuller life with it but it's it's scary and

[01:42:00] we talked a little bit about this last fall when I covered dead to me with Jason and Jade on

[01:42:07] the dead to us hot cast because Christina Applegate was diagnosed with MS and and came out and talked

[01:42:15] about that and they filmed the final season with her having MS and she was really brave about it

[01:42:24] and it must have been incredibly difficult to do the filming but all of the casting crew were very

[01:42:31] supportive of her and made it so that she could do it which was wonderful because that show needed

[01:42:35] to have an ending. That ending yeah so good that's such a good show really is if you have a

[01:42:43] general PSA if you haven't it's wonderful so Sunnetflix it's great and we covered the whole thing

[01:42:49] on dead to us which you could find on podcastica and we had a blast doing it so best of luck to

[01:42:56] Emma Coughfield will keep an eye on that story if there's developments 100% and I think it's so

[01:43:03] important that you know people who are prominent and still you know young like Emma Coughfield

[01:43:12] and Christina Applegate bring more attention to MS I feel like it's still not talked about enough

[01:43:20] and you know in a bit of a lighter note our next news piece is for those of you who crossover

[01:43:28] as Buffy and Star Trek fans James Marsters appeared at the Emerald City Comic Con in Seattle

[01:43:36] Washington at the beginning of March and in February and discussed being an avid convention goer

[01:43:43] and how his love for the world of Star Trek felt similar to the world he was helping create

[01:43:49] on Buffy and for Buffy will include a link in the show notes to the articles that has the full

[01:43:56] video of his commentary and I just I love anytime James Marsters shows up as at a convention he is

[01:44:03] notorious for being super friendly and amicable and for charging very reasonable prices for photo

[01:44:11] opportunities and autograph opportunities with him he is yeah everyone a fantastic figure everyone

[01:44:17] I've ever talked to who's met him at a convention or similar has lovely things to say about him

[01:44:23] they're always like oh he's so nice he's so funny so friendly he took like 12 pictures with us like

[01:44:28] it's always that he's really generous with this time I love it when celebrities are also fans

[01:44:36] I just think it's so cute when they like fanboy or fangirl out over some other celebrity you know

[01:44:44] for us the viewers we're like you're all celebrities together but to them like I don't know if

[01:44:50] he's a classic tracker you know next gen or whatever fan but like for him seeing like Patrick Stewart

[01:44:56] William Shatner is like oh as exciting as it would be for me to see James Marsters and that's just really adorable

[01:45:04] it is we and he I love that he is it seems like a very good genuine person that just makes me love

[01:45:11] spike even more and his portrayal of spike I hope I would love to go to a convention that he is at

[01:45:19] someday and I would hope that I'd be able to form words yeah talking to him because I don't know

[01:45:24] no promises yeah really so I think it's time for us to go over to the bronze and have a couple of

[01:45:33] adult beverages what do you think yay I mean I wish I could really do that right about now

[01:45:40] that sounds nice bronze things things of bronze first up we got some feedback from a fellow

[01:45:50] buffy podcast the Sunnydale diaries and their Instagram account is at the Sunnydale diaries on

[01:45:58] insta and they wrote in and said we want to know what condition Kraylake had that required him to

[01:46:06] take pills and what medication were the pills and there was definitely you know a huge emphasis

[01:46:12] in this episode on how essential those pills were and I don't know about you Penny but I always

[01:46:18] assumed that it was some sort of anti-psychotic I thought about that crucial but why would he want

[01:46:27] an anti-psychotic because he seemed to enjoy being psychotic so then I thought that it's just

[01:46:33] something he said did we did too like a pain pill because I don't know if anti-psychotics can be

[01:46:40] can give you withdrawal like that or it might all be like psychological dependence those pills could

[01:46:46] be nothing oh yeah and he just thinks he needs them because if you're a vampire does medicine work

[01:46:53] on you like do drugs I guess alcohol works well if alcohol and we know that spike like drugs work

[01:47:01] because spike bit a hippie at woodstock oh yeah then it's been a day looking at his hand yeah

[01:47:09] so and I would assume I don't think anti-psychotics are addictive but your body can still develop

[01:47:16] dependency on them so you can experience withdrawal symptoms kind of like with you know

[01:47:22] certain anti-depressants or anti-exity meds yeah but I don't know I wish they would have

[01:47:30] gone into that a little bit more there is out there in the Buffy comic universe a

[01:47:36] crazy like backstory or something or like an alternate universe where we get more of

[01:47:43] acrylic story I'm gonna do a little goob I see what I could find yeah I'd be very curious

[01:47:50] to know that so I mentioned this earlier my friend Piotr who is also a neighbor and a fabulous artist

[01:47:58] by the way in addition to explaining the Polish title of gingerbread he and I went back and forth

[01:48:07] a little bit about Buffy because I told him why I was asking the question and he was like and I

[01:48:11] know he and his partner or Buffy fans and he ended up telling me this story and I asked if we could

[01:48:17] share it on the podcast and he said yes so this is from Piotr he says my first encounter with Buffy

[01:48:24] offended me grossed me out and made me cringe I stumbled upon it randomly well flipping channels

[01:48:30] on our chunky TV in the late 90s it was a standalone zombie themed episode called some assembly

[01:48:36] required that's season one episode like I don't know maybe at the time what an introduction

[01:48:43] at the time I was still living in Poland and I was in my early 20s some context foreign TV content

[01:48:50] has often been sloppily translated into Polish and the adaptations weren't even dubbed there was a

[01:48:55] dude reading lines while the original audio was slightly softened that's how we got used to

[01:49:00] watching movies and shows and it didn't bother us at all even if Buffy appeared to speak with a

[01:49:05] raspy male voice of course it wasn't just the language that the adaptation failed to translate

[01:49:10] the cultural mismatch at least at first glance was even more glaring quote she who hangs out in

[01:49:18] cemeteries was a strange concept to me because in Poland showing respect to the deceased ancestors

[01:49:25] is a solemn affair and it's sort of taboo one time my dad yelled at me for daring to walk

[01:49:31] through the cemetery with hands in my pockets my hands were cold we can't blame you for that

[01:49:37] visiting dead relatives is a way to keep their memory alive and it's not really a thing in the US

[01:49:42] where people just put a flat stone on a neatly mowed lawn and never really come back

[01:49:48] that is kind of true I visit my dad's grave when I'm in Washington DC but

[01:49:54] yeah you don't see it happening all that often

[01:50:00] definitely depends on culture of people yeah while the cemetery in Sunnydale has almost an old

[01:50:07] European vibe it always seems highly unattended by the regular visitors Polish graveyards are

[01:50:13] constantly frequented by visitors even in the late night hours if a grave becomes overgrown and

[01:50:18] neglected it's a sign that the entire generation that would be taken care of the grave is now gone to

[01:50:23] and so is the memory of the deceased then the site is simply reused and a new grave is created in

[01:50:28] its place there would be no way in the world that a dug up empty grave would go unnoticed not to

[01:50:35] mention a teenage blonde girl dusting vampires on a daily basis or cozying up with her undead

[01:50:40] boyfriend using gravestones as headboards finding body parts in the garbage bins and turning it into

[01:50:47] a joke about how it served Cordelia as an excuse to get closer to angel also rubbed me the wrong way

[01:50:53] sure it was supposed to convey creepiness but it still seemed casual and cartoonish to me

[01:50:59] being suddenly exposed to the idea of relishing in this sort of campy creepiness and portraying

[01:51:04] morbidity in such light sardonic way was offensive to the Polish viewers who never really managed

[01:51:09] to get past that first reaction this cultural cringe must have been the reason why the show never

[01:51:15] really took off in Poland it's the same reason why Halloween is still offensive to central Europeans

[01:51:20] there are some things you should not take lightly and death is probably on top of the list

[01:51:26] memento mori of course this is only a first glance reaction because the show is quite complex

[01:51:31] and its approach to death the body episode for example breaks from the cartoonishness in a

[01:51:36] crushingly realistic way oh yeah i became obsessed with the show only after i left Poland

[01:51:44] i was sick with a cold so my partner brought me the entire season two DVD collection i told her i

[01:51:49] hated that show she said just give what's my line episodes a try that did it and

[01:51:56] and what the way to learn english now i know how to spell bitka

[01:52:02] 20 years of task and now i'm almost able to quote the entire

[01:52:06] entirety of the episodes by heart by the way i'm still not too crazy about some assembly required

[01:52:11] but still i enjoy it that's not my favorite episode either no that's a very fair

[01:52:17] there has to be a zombie episode in all the seasons i also warmed up towards the Halloween tradition

[01:52:23] i think the dea dea is moritos approach to death as much healthier than the gloomy northern european

[01:52:29] memento mori way thank you so much but are so interesting and any other listeners if you want to

[01:52:37] send in some information about you know how your opinion of the show has changed over time or if

[01:52:43] you're from a non-US country and you have a different take on the show i would we would love to hear

[01:52:48] it this is so interesting Peter thank you so much for writing it and i'll see you soon that's

[01:52:55] fascinating all right that is the end of the main section of the podcast stay tuned for the watchers

[01:53:04] diaries if you want to hear the spoiler discussion

[01:53:07] and if you'd like to join the conversation you can find all of our contact information at podcastica.com

[01:53:17] or find us on facebook at facebook.com slash podcastica or on our facebook page for still slaying podcast

[01:53:26] and on our still slaying cast page on instagram at still slaying cast you can always send an email

[01:53:34] or a recorded voice message to still slaying feedback at gmail.com that was a tongue twister today don't

[01:53:41] worry all that information is in the show notes it's also on podcastica.com where you can find links

[01:53:47] to all the other podcastica shows and as i always say there are a lot of them right now i'm way into

[01:53:57] the the ones who live walking dead spin-off i didn't love the first episode but i loved the

[01:54:03] second and third a lot and there's only i think there's only five in the season so we're

[01:54:11] i think that's right or is it six i can't remember it's a short season so we're it's very

[01:54:16] halfway done and it's just been a fun ride of having rick grimes back in our life i'm loving that

[01:54:23] and the coverage on the cast of us has been great and carren and i were on the weekend

[01:54:29] yeah that's true on the feedback i'm so that was fun um we got feedback from becky

[01:54:35] so that was a fun little crossover uh going over her feedback on a walking dead show as opposed to

[01:54:42] buckee but yeah that's pretty much been where you know my listening has gone towards is

[01:54:49] the ones who live coverage and still re-listening the yellow jackets

[01:54:53] but gosh it's so nice to have rick grimes back on my screen of Andrew Lincoln is aging wonderfully

[01:54:59] yeah he went from fox silver fox very gracefully yeah yep not i'm not sad about it but it's a great show

[01:55:07] so far i've been pleasantly surprised so that's that's gonna be fun to continue and if you like what we

[01:55:16] do make sure to hit like follow and subscribe and if you feel like leaving you know a nice review

[01:55:23] to balance out the one star review we got last week we would greatly appreciate it appreciate it

[01:55:30] no pressure but if you feel so inclined and you're enjoying the podcast it is always always helpful

[01:55:38] to leave that review and we are very thankful for anyone that we get and next time it's gonna be our

[01:55:44] kind of mid-season break at still slang and we will be covering the film headers which if you

[01:55:52] have not seen you must must watch it it is gosh i cannot think of a more influential film when it comes

[01:56:03] to you know mean girls that we see today and we are very excited to be covering that with Jason

[01:56:09] Calbassi who is the founder of the podcast ticket network and current host of the cast of us

[01:56:16] which we have referenced many times and we are definitely looking forward to some classic film

[01:56:23] discussion i cannot wait Jason has never seen heathers so it's gonna be fresh for him

[01:56:31] and i'm so curious to see how it ages i haven't seen it in quite a long time i've seen the movie

[01:56:40] probably a hundred times but i haven't seen it in in a while and you know my opinion of it will be

[01:56:46] probably changed by time but Jason will be watching it for the first time so

[01:56:51] i have no idea what he's gonna think of it or how well it ages and i am really excited to cover

[01:56:59] it because there is so much going on in that movie and just i'm very curious it's just

[01:57:06] it couldn't be more late 80s early 90s it came out in 1989 it's got Shannon Doherty in it and

[01:57:12] Christian Slater and Winona Ryder and it's it's so good it's so funny and so dark dark dark dark dark

[01:57:23] oh yeah wonderfully dark Jason loves dark humor so i'm assuming he will be all on board with this but

[01:57:30] we'll see and then when we come back from our break it'll be season three episode 13 the zepo

[01:57:38] yay such a good episode that'll be fun one will be great we're gonna be joined by Jason again

[01:57:44] we're doing a little experiment because he's never really watched any buffie episodes so

[01:57:48] we picked one that is slightly a standalone episode like the zepo and also Jason because he

[01:57:54] covers the walking dead he's kind of a zombie expert and there are some zombies in that episode

[01:57:59] and we're gonna have Steve back on and we know he's being zoned out of it quite appropriate as

[01:58:05] though that'll be oh yeah he'll balance us out

[01:58:11] oh man all right be sure to tune in we're really looking forward to it thanks

[01:58:17] everyone and i'll kill you for that for what were you trying to kill me for before

[01:58:27] all right that is a good exchange that is the end of the non spoiler section if you want to avoid

[01:58:31] the spoilers you know what you're supposed to do stop listening like right now all right you should

[01:58:37] be gone those people should be done and gone now it's time for spoilery stuff and things

[01:58:44] and that is an inside joke for walking dead fans thanks

[01:58:49] it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries

[01:58:52] sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private

[01:58:59] also jol's keeps someone his office in his personal finals most importantly it would be wrong

[01:59:08] time for the watchers diaries and the biggest spoilery thing that i want to talk about is

[01:59:16] things we find out about the cancel in the future they come back later this season when

[01:59:24] faith goes rogue and um the council tries to arrest her i guess they sort of come back in

[01:59:32] um the episode bad girls when wessley shows up so expensive yeah wessley is pretty yeah that's huge

[01:59:41] good i'm so excited for wessley wessley is such a fun character he's oh my god he

[01:59:49] has one of the most fascinating arcs over the course of his entire time in the buffy verse

[01:59:54] um the the changes he goes through in season three of buffy and then he moves over to angel and

[02:00:02] just the the changes his character goes through are unbelievable also behind the scenes he and

[02:00:08] Allison Hanigan glizz willow are married which i just find really adorable they're like this

[02:00:14] couple they recently went to japan and she has been posting all of these adorable family photos

[02:00:21] on her instagram and i just love that they're together in real life because in the show

[02:00:27] wessley has this weird fascination with cordelia yeah that i'm sure is gonna be fun yeah

[02:00:34] speaking of older men and younger women although probably those two actors are about the same age uh

[02:00:40] cats they make a lot of jokes about it i know faith at one point goes uh first name jale last name

[02:00:46] bait which is yeah jill areas which is a creepy phrase when you really i mean it's all about

[02:00:53] steps by rape but uh cordelia also has a thing for wessley and there's a lot of humor that comes out

[02:01:01] of that in the second half of season three it's it's pretty entertaining uh i remember a lot of

[02:01:07] exasperation from jiles yeah he's just generally very irritated by wessley

[02:01:15] as is everyone really every one except cordelia it sort of treats wessley like like this like

[02:01:21] annoying little brother like oh all right you can come with us but you suck

[02:01:29] that's so funny oh god yeah that'll be that'll be fun for sure and speaking of cordelia

[02:01:36] yeah i this isn't too spoilery i mean i guess it kind of is but seeing that scene where we see her

[02:01:44] soften and respond to buffy and support buffy and thinking about her arc and how much you know

[02:01:52] they they did a lot with her arc that was very important and compelling but thinking about what

[02:01:59] could have been also makes me really sad because of the way her character was handled on angel

[02:02:05] still makes me the first couple of seasons of angel her character is fantastic she goes through a lot

[02:02:13] of interesting like adventures and changes and she takes on this larger role and she becomes

[02:02:21] a true hero and then they just do weird stuff they make her have sex with conner which is

[02:02:29] the worst i hate it and then she has this creepy pregnancy and then they put her in a coma

[02:02:35] which we know behind the scenes was because she was having like a disagreement with joss we didn

[02:02:42] and so he puts her character in a coma for like the rest of the season and then kills her off

[02:02:47] it sucks it sucks awful um because you're gonna love cordelia so much on angel like when we get to angel

[02:02:57] and like the ways that cordelia grows and changes you're gonna fall really in love with her and

[02:03:05] i hope and angel if you don't already love angel so much better growth in that series we get over

[02:03:12] to the angel series he's so much more interesting and funny and he gets to be funny so funny

[02:03:19] and and cordelia gets to be funny and heroic and she gets to stop being a person who competes with other

[02:03:26] women that that gets to go away and she becomes you know a real ally to the people that she works with

[02:03:35] and and i just yeah and charisma carpenter sort of the light that she has the way she can light up a

[02:03:43] room they really make use of it on that show where angel is very dark and broody and so she makes this

[02:03:49] lovely contrast with him because she's so sunny she has like this like giant smile her whole face

[02:03:58] is part of it and it it really counteracts his moody broody dark and they have such fantastic

[02:04:09] like friendship chemistry yeah it's so enjoyable watching them on screen

[02:04:15] there's a lot of banter until we get to yeah and she's a truth teller solid the way spike is a truth teller

[02:04:22] right she just bluntly says the truth to people all the time and she's like the only one who puts angel

[02:04:28] in his place it's great yeah there's there's an episode speaking of cordelia being a truth teller

[02:04:35] i don't want to get too far into it but it's one coming up that i am very excited to cover and

[02:04:42] since you're in the spoiler section that means that you know you're good with spoilers so

[02:04:49] the episode when buffy ends up getting kind of infected by a demon and taking on a quality

[02:04:57] oh yeah that demon yep where she can read minds um then we find out that cordelia just says exactly

[02:05:06] what she's thinking literally what is on her mind i cannot wait so funny and sometimes she'll even

[02:05:14] say something a little harsher than what she was thinking in her head in that episode but it's

[02:05:18] so refreshing to see that cordelia is straight up cordelia like she is herself she says what she

[02:05:25] wants to and what she needs there's an episode of cordelia where she's like um like an

[02:05:32] astral projection version of herself or like a dream version of herself and she looks exactly the

[02:05:37] same as she does in real life and this demon is like wow you have a really strong sense of self-esteem

[02:05:42] like he's like most people sort of make themselves look better in for their imaginary selves but

[02:05:47] you're exactly what you look like and she's like yes whatever uh that is one thing you can say about

[02:05:54] cordelia she is confident yeah she is who she is she owns it and it's fantastic oh i love her

[02:06:03] she's great man there was just a couple other notes that i had about this episode that are slightly

[02:06:10] spoilery i don't know for those who have read the season eight comics in i believe it's retreat

[02:06:20] where buffy once again kind of deals with not having her slayer power her slayer strength when she

[02:06:28] gives up her magic basically to earth mother or whatever to conceal herself and i think there's one more

[02:06:37] comic that deals with her kind of giving up her power so it's interesting i can't remember it's been

[02:06:43] forever since i've read anything in the comics but it is interesting to see them toy with the idea

[02:06:49] buffy being quote unquote helpless again but then it being her choice and not something that is

[02:06:56] enacted upon her on her birthday secretly and god i was thinking too yeah about all of the crazy

[02:07:04] birthdays that buffy has to deal with obviously we talked about in season two um

[02:07:12] poor buffy dealing with her surprise party and then angel going evil and then obviously this year

[02:07:21] and then we'll see next year uh giles i love that episode because of demon it's okay first

[02:07:29] y'all Ethan rain what you know i love Ethan rain yeah and then giles gets turned into a demon

[02:07:37] and he has to go to spike for help and it is so funny it's so good and his exasperation even comes

[02:07:44] through when he's a demon it's oh it's so good i cannot speak like giles i love it so much that one

[02:07:51] is so good and then what's the one blood ties what's that one let's see that's the key that's in

[02:08:01] season six or is it five when is the key is that yeah that's in five with gory so it's season five

[02:08:08] when buffy has her birthday party but then dawn figures out that she's the key oh that's the same

[02:08:14] episode and flips the hell out yeah so she runs away and goes to glory so that was a very intense

[02:08:22] i forgot that was a buffy but in that season buffy uh birthday episode and then in season six

[02:08:28] buffy's birthday when they all get trapped in the house uh older and far away with house

[02:08:33] like yeah that episode is stuck casting it is so good but buffy's episodes like buffy

[02:08:42] are buffy's birthday episodes are always some form of disaster like something crazy happens

[02:08:50] and i love that they keep up with that tradition basically throughout the series and buffy says it

[02:08:55] she's like yeah i kept up with that it's by tradition and it keeps going which is wonderful

[02:09:03] oh man is there anything else i don't think so there's tons we could talk about with the

[02:09:11] watchers council but we can save that ranger we have put we have years of watchers council

[02:09:16] ranting to do yeah exploited it is page rearcle jerks all right i'm calling it that's the complete

[02:09:25] end of the show today thank you everyone for listening and until next time i am penny

[02:09:31] and i'm kira keep slaying

[02:10:01] and

[02:10:31] you