27: “The Zeppo” (BTVS S3E13)

[00:00:00] Why is it that I've come face to face with vampires, demons, the most tedious creatures

[00:00:11] hell ever spit out and I'm still afraid of a little bully like Jack O'Toole? Because unlike

[00:00:15] all those other creatures that you've come face to face with, Jack actually noticed

[00:00:18] you were there. Why am I surprised by how comforting you're not? It must be really hard

[00:00:23] when all your friends have like superpowers, slayer, werewolf, witches, vampires and you're

[00:00:29] like this little nothing. You must feel like Jimmy Olsen. I was just talking to, hey

[00:00:35] mind your own business. Oh I struck a nerve. The boy that had no cool.

[00:00:40] I happen to be an integral part of that group. I happen to have a lot to offer. Oh please.

[00:00:45] I do. Integral part of the group, Xander, you're the useless part of the group. You're

[00:00:51] the Zepo. Cool. Look it up. It's something that a subliterate that's repeated 12th grade

[00:00:59] three times has and you don't. There is no part of that that wasn't fun.

[00:01:21] Hello everybody. Welcome to Still Sling, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm not

[00:01:38] Kara. Jason. I'm Steve. Also not Kara. Kara couldn't be with us today. She had some unfortunate

[00:01:47] car situation that needed to be dealt with, but we are very lucky that we have Steve and Jason

[00:01:54] to try to fill her shoes. Good luck with that guys. Impossible. This episode we're going

[00:02:00] to be discussing one of the very few Xander centric episodes of the series season three

[00:02:06] episode 13, the Zepo directed by James Whitmore Jr. and written by Dan Weber. The original

[00:02:12] air date for this one was January 26, 1999. This episode had an audience of 4.1 million households

[00:02:20] for its original airing down from 4.6 million for the last episode helpless. The alternative

[00:02:27] titles in other languages for this episode were quite varied and entertaining. Useless

[00:02:32] that was the Armenian version. One's outsider was Czech devil loose. I don't know in finish.

[00:02:42] Yeah, that makes sense. Nine of the living corpses that's German the day of the apocalypse.

[00:02:48] Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, cool dude is the Polish one. Nobody is Portuguese and lack of

[00:02:57] character in Latin America. See, I think devil loose and is along the same lines as the day

[00:03:04] of the apocalypse. They were focusing more on that story, but I commend the ones who focused in

[00:03:09] on the loser-ness of Xander because I think that's the core of the episode. Yeah, I mean it's clearly

[00:03:15] of the episode. I guess the Zepo doesn't really translate into other countries. It barely works

[00:03:22] in the US anymore. I don't think that people younger than any of the three of us would know who

[00:03:30] the Zepo is or the three brothers. Yeah, the three. Yeah, the three. Marks brothers.

[00:03:37] Marks brothers. Oh, no, I don't even know.

[00:03:41] Oh, you're right. Yeah, okay. And it's extra one. So yeah.

[00:03:46] Yeah. Well, I'm really glad to have Steve back on the podcast and Jason back on the podcast.

[00:03:53] Jason was on last week to talk about Heather's. Steve, you were on before when we did what was the

[00:03:59] episode? What was it? It was earlier this season. That's horrible that I can't remember.

[00:04:05] It wasn't revelations because I wanted to be on revelations. Right. Kelly was on revelations.

[00:04:11] You were on a men's where you want a man's no, no, no, I wasn't on a man's. I was away for a man's.

[00:04:16] Oh, yeah. Oh, anyway, Steve was on earlier and has left many excellent voicemails that we've

[00:04:23] included. And Jason hasn't really ever watched Buffy. So this is an experiment. And before we

[00:04:30] get into it, Jason just generally, how did it go for you to watch it? I did watch some.

[00:04:36] I think I at one point thought, all right, I'm going to really get into Buffy and I watch like

[00:04:43] the first three or four episodes and then just trailed off. You know season one is weak.

[00:04:48] Yeah, that's I know when you guys said that, everyone like, okay, maybe that's what happened.

[00:04:52] I mean, I don't think I disliked it but I just wasn't getting hooked in if I remember right.

[00:04:56] And there's a thing with me where my expectations going into something really impact how

[00:05:05] I receive it in a way that I wish was less. Like when I'm really looking forward to something,

[00:05:12] I have to make a conscious effort to ratchet my expectations down just so I won't go in hoping

[00:05:18] for too much. And then and sometimes when I don't expect much and something's not all that great,

[00:05:23] I still like it more. So it's it's dump really. I don't like that. I'm like that. But anyway,

[00:05:27] it's kind of like that with series this series. It's been called one of the best shows ever on TV.

[00:05:32] And I I feel like if coming in with all of that in my head that it can't measure up. And so

[00:05:40] watching the show, I'm like, yeah, it's a fun show about kids fighting demons. But I don't really

[00:05:48] get the fervor. So then watching it a second time this episode, I think I was starting to get it,

[00:05:54] but I want to know I'm going to tell you what I think is is really the draw of the show and see if

[00:05:59] you guys who are fans. If I'm off base or not. And I think a lot of the appreciation for the show

[00:06:06] is about seeing it as a show about teenage life and the struggles that younger people go through.

[00:06:11] I think that's a big part of it. And also the female empowerment thing, you know, badass women.

[00:06:18] I'm the funny, equipped dialogue, of course. And just the exciting battles in romance and

[00:06:23] and the seasonal arcs I've heard, you know, but I feel like it's a show you need to watch a bunch

[00:06:28] and get hooked into before you really start to feel it like you really get into the characters

[00:06:34] and all that. So for me, yeah, and I don't know them right now. And so I have this sort of a little bit

[00:06:42] of insight into the characters, which I'll talk about later, but for me, what really hooked me in

[00:06:47] on the second watch was just relating to it from remembering what it's like to be a teenager

[00:06:54] and have some similar issues that Zander's going through. And I thought that part was what

[00:06:59] hooked me in the most. Yeah, it's very really. And looking at it from a

[00:07:05] and one of the things that I've tried to remember is and you've mentioned this on the podcast

[00:07:10] before Penny and Cara do that if you look at it through a 90s lens, it makes it almost easier

[00:07:18] to take some of the some of the things. I hate to say it like that. But I think if we there's

[00:07:23] some things that don't it's I said, it still holds up today. But you you really have to watch

[00:07:30] it from that 90s perspective, I think. It helps. That's one of the things I loved about it by the

[00:07:35] way is like just that intro is so 90s and and I love the 90s. I had a great time in the 90s

[00:07:42] and it really gave me that feel and I very much enjoyed that that aspect of it. Well now that we're

[00:07:48] talking about the 90s, why don't we take a little trip back there and see what was going on

[00:07:56] when this aired. The number one song in the US was Baby One More Time by Britney Spears

[00:08:02] and we all know that that went on to be an incredibly influential piece of music. And the number

[00:08:08] one song in the UK was Pretty Fly for a white guy by the offspring. And Cara and I had a number of

[00:08:17] text messages about how funny these lyrics are. And so I've just got a few of them here. So first

[00:08:22] of all, there's a part in the song where they go, Udo Dostres, Quack Tinkos, Sinkos, Sase.

[00:08:27] And that has been in my head now for like five days. And then the lyrics are you know it's kind

[00:08:32] of hard just to get along today. Our subject isn't cool but he fakes it anyway. He may not have a clue

[00:08:39] and he may not have a style. But everything he lacks well, he makes up in denial. It just seems perfect

[00:08:46] for Xander. For Xander, I don't know that's that I'm sure he would listen to the offspring. Yeah,

[00:08:52] I recommend everybody listen to that song after you were done listening to this podcast. It's

[00:08:57] really catchy and fun and dancing. And I have added it to my like get psyched up playlist best

[00:09:03] selling books at the time. A man in full by Tom Wolf, the greatest generation by Tom Broca

[00:09:09] and US box office again patch Adams which is not that good of a movie. Step mom number two

[00:09:16] and the Prince of Egypt which I never saw. I think that's one of the first movies where I was

[00:09:22] aware of the concept of whitewashing. Wasn't Jake Jones all cast as an Egyptian person?

[00:09:29] This is so crazy because this happened in 1999. I guess it was

[00:09:35] January because 1999 is one of the best years in cinema history. Yeah, it has a fight club,

[00:09:42] American beauty, just the matrix. If you look at the music came out that year but I guess they

[00:09:48] hadn't come out yet. Yeah, they probably came out in the fall as Oscar bait. So this is the

[00:09:53] last January as you go forward in the podcast. Yeah, I hope so. During the week for the episode

[00:10:00] aired of January 24th 1999 starting off with some lighter news on January 25th 1999, the iconic

[00:10:07] horror film The Blair Witch Project, another one premiered at the Sundance Film Festival.

[00:10:12] That movie scared the hell out of me. I know people are either in two camps. They're like,

[00:10:16] it scared me or I got sick and I don't understand what the big deal is.

[00:10:22] Also on January 25th 1999, bowing to clean up the worst corruption scandal and it's 105 year history,

[00:10:28] the executive board of the International Olympic Committee called for the expulsion of six

[00:10:32] members accused of unethical behavior and recommended drastic changes in the way host cities

[00:10:38] are chosen for the Olympic Games. Yeah, that corruption's all gone now, no worries. Yeah, they took

[00:10:45] care of it. Also on January 25th 1999, an earthquake hit the center of the main coffee producing

[00:10:52] region in Columbia, South America, killing around 300 and injuring 1,000 at the time. It was

[00:10:58] the most powerful quake to hit Columbia for 16 years. It measured 6.0 on the Richter scale and

[00:11:04] aftershocks were felt as far away as the capital city Bogota on January 26th 1999, President Clinton

[00:11:12] welcomed Pope John Paul II to America. Meanwhile, his attorneys presented a motion to dismiss

[00:11:18] in his ongoing Senate impeachment trial. Yeah, it was denied. Yes, spoiler alert.

[00:11:23] I think I know you don't want to go on too many tangents with all these, but no president has ever

[00:11:32] been successfully impeached. Is that right? Or maybe one was a long time ago? No, I think that's

[00:11:38] that's correct. I think they have. They've never been found guilty. Yeah, they've never been found guilty.

[00:11:45] I think they've they both like Clinton was found not guilty or it was. He got the house impeached,

[00:11:52] but then the Senate has to ratify it or something. Okay, both chambers never do.

[00:11:57] Yeah, and I think there was one like you said Jason like a hundred years ago or something that

[00:12:02] the same thing he was either found not guilty or it didn't go through so yeah.

[00:12:07] This episode like many Buffy episodes had a bunch of pop culture references and we have pulled

[00:12:15] them out for everybody's enjoyment. Steve, what are you talking about? I do because this is probably

[00:12:21] my favorite one because both Zander and Cordelia compare Zander to Jimmy Olson, the photographer

[00:12:26] for the daily planet who often tags along with Lois Lane and Clark kit in the Superman universe

[00:12:32] and like Jimmy Olson, Zander relates to being an unappreciated sidekick without any special powers.

[00:12:38] There are two references. The two references are Zander's but gee Mr. White, if Clark and Lois get all

[00:12:44] the good stories, I'll never be a good reporter. I just love that line. I'm glad you put it in here

[00:12:49] and which he acknowledges as Jimmy Olson joke. Cordelia's job is you must feel like Jimmy Olson

[00:12:56] is another reference to that to the photographer to which Zander replies or starts to like get into

[00:13:01] a conversation with her about oh I was just saying the same thing to Jiles and stops himself

[00:13:05] and realizes it's just gonna tease you more. Yeah, yeah, so yeah I love the references and I love

[00:13:11] that I got to say that line. Awesome Steve. Zander mentions the Michael Jackson song,

[00:13:17] want to be starting something which was on the 1982 album Thriller. It's when Jack says something like

[00:13:24] you want to be starting something and Zander replies what? Start something like that Michael Jackson

[00:13:28] song right? That was a lot of fun to hide get over. Yeah, yeah remember that fun song? A great

[00:13:34] and typical Zander moment of the way that when he's nervous like words just tumble out of his mouth.

[00:13:40] When Buffy realizes that the sisterhood of Jay. I think it's Jay. Jay celebrate victory

[00:13:47] battle by eating their foes she comments and discuss they couldn't just pour Gatorade on each other

[00:13:52] referencing the tradition and athletic competitions to celebrate by pouring buckets of the beverage over the

[00:13:56] coach. Which they can bet on that did you know there's like betting lines in Vegas about what color

[00:14:02] Gatorade? Oh my god. He used to be. But the Zepo draws its title from one of the four marks brothers,

[00:14:10] a group of irreverent comedians who were huge stars during the 1930s Herbert Zepo marks was

[00:14:16] the group's straight man but the foil for much of his elder brothers and I can't say that word in

[00:14:23] Arctic and Arctic humor. Hence to be the Zepo is to be the least important member of a group.

[00:14:31] I have to disagree for a moment because I was in a comedy agreed comedy in high school where I was

[00:14:38] the straight man and it's a critical. It's a credit it's a hard part in a comedy also. I think

[00:14:47] Zepo actually left after a while and it was just the three marks brothers. Bob says Walker Texas Ranger

[00:14:53] you've been taping him. Jack assures Bob that he taped every episode during the eight months that Bob

[00:15:00] was dead. I like that. There's a reboot of Walker Texas Ranger starring Jared Paddlelecki.

[00:15:05] I haven't watched it. Have you ever watched it? I watched the first season. I watched the first

[00:15:10] season and I think part of this second it's been it's it's gone. It's like four or five seasons now I

[00:15:14] think. Yeah, I think it's doing well. Okay. It was it was okay. It was it was it was very different

[00:15:20] from the Chuck Norris Walker Texas Ranger. So it would have to be nobody else can be Chuck Norris so

[00:15:25] don't even draw. It's true. There was also a quantum leap and fantasy islands.

[00:15:31] Everything. Quantum leap is great. Is it really? Yes, I really enjoy it. Oh good to know.

[00:15:39] When Xander saw the bomb in the boiler room he said hello Nasty which was the name of the BC

[00:15:44] boys recently really stable of course. I could see Xander. George Lucas' Star Wars films are

[00:15:51] referenced numerous times and numerous ways in the Buffyverse. In this episode a visual reference

[00:15:56] to Star Wars can be seen when Xander runs into the corridor and runs back out with one with one

[00:16:03] of the gang members and a couple of Hellmouth demons chasing him. This was intended to mirror Han Solo

[00:16:08] running in distortion troopers in the hallway in a new hope. I never picked up on that. I didn't

[00:16:13] need there and it's so clear now that I see it. It is. It's got to be a reference.

[00:16:18] The bomb in the boiler room is a direct homage to Heather's which we talked about on our last episode.

[00:16:25] If you haven't listened to that episode yet check it out. We had a great time covering Heather's.

[00:16:29] It's such an amazing movie. It holds up. I want to listen to it now because I know that I've heard

[00:16:34] so much talk about how long we watch Heather's and then listen to the podcast for sure. I'll be

[00:16:39] interested to know what you think. So let's get into it and Jason why don't you start us off?

[00:16:46] So do we know why Jack's friends are dead? No. Well one of them tells us that he got shot by a

[00:16:54] liquor store owner. Oh yeah oh no so they said the jackals attack them. Do we know who that is?

[00:17:02] No it's never come up before or since. Okay and I was wondering why Jack waited until this

[00:17:11] moment to resurrect them but then he said he had to wait until the stars aligned because they'd

[00:17:15] been gone for eight months. And then I was like well why is Jack up and around but he said yeah he

[00:17:20] had a drive by a few weeks ago. So then he then I'm like well how was Jack resurrected and he says

[00:17:27] Grand Pappy found his body and raised him and he said it's a rush man. Do we know who Grand Pappy

[00:17:32] is? No and that never bothered me before until this watch of the episode where I went wait who

[00:17:38] is this grandfather and how come it never comes up again that there's just this random guy that can

[00:17:44] raise people from the dead in sunny day. Oh like make zombies and it never comes up again but yeah I

[00:17:51] think that's part of the the under the this being a Xander perspective episode there's things in

[00:17:59] Xander's life that never they've come up once and they they sometimes come up again and sometimes

[00:18:04] they don't so I think that's part of the charm of the episode is that there's so many things

[00:18:10] that just like he has these things going on that we don't even know about and yeah yeah

[00:18:15] I think also Sunnydale just has like a backdrop of like magical people and stuff going on.

[00:18:21] Demonic forces and stuff like that right and out at this point three seasons in you're just like

[00:18:25] yeah that happens stuff like this happens we don't need to know the details. Here's another question

[00:18:31] I get the feeling that maybe they're making Xander seem especially fragile where everyone's afraid for

[00:18:36] safety and encouraging to stay out of harm's way maybe more than normal to accommodate this story

[00:18:42] because isn't he usually there fighting with people and they're not trying to push him out or

[00:18:48] or not. Yeah although he doesn't have any powers or abilities and yeah and there are other times when

[00:18:55] they're like Xander don't jump in but he has magically garnered military knowledge and sometimes

[00:19:06] that puts him right in the middle of things. Yeah I think it's really played up in this episode

[00:19:13] more so because of the theme so it's definitely played up more in this episode you know like

[00:19:18] the very beginning when he's like if anybody sees my spine could you pick it out of that kind of

[00:19:23] things I think it's definitely yeah definitely played up more. Cool that's kind of what the sense

[00:19:29] I got that there's a little bit of it but it was played up more at one point Jack the leader of this

[00:19:36] dead bros gang calls Xander an R word and later Xander when the

[00:19:47] police officer comes to find out about the night fight and he says oh we're just two guys wrestling

[00:19:51] but not in a gay way and I wondered if watching this there's a lot of stuff that seems kind of

[00:19:57] cringy because they didn't know it better you know. Yeah for sure. Yeah there are definitely

[00:20:01] dating references yeah. There's another buffy podcast that I listened to to where they

[00:20:07] they have things that age like a human or age like a vampire. Oh that's funny. That would be

[00:20:13] that would be one of the things that age like a human that it didn't that doesn't dive well you

[00:20:16] especially his response I'm slow in some ways you know spatial relationships but not

[00:20:23] disabled or however he puts it but yeah there's definitely some dated references in it.

[00:20:28] Right and you got to expect that I mean you can't help but cringes but it's like yeah that one's

[00:20:33] kind of the water they were swimming in I guess. Yeah anyway um that's all yeah that's all the

[00:20:38] questions I really had for now. All right maybe some more will come up as we talk yeah. Yeah

[00:20:43] Steve where do you want to go? Um wow it's so there's so much in this episode that I that I love

[00:20:49] that I um you know I love the growth we see in Zander and as much as I I try to defend him there are

[00:20:57] times when I can't really defend him but I think this is one of the few episodes that we can look

[00:21:01] at and go okay we have this this particularly at the end when we see where he deals with Jack

[00:21:08] and uh he just looks at Jack and Jack is like no I'm already dead and and Zander's like yeah but

[00:21:13] this isn't like walking around having beers with your pals dead this is like scraped up by the

[00:21:18] janitor a little bit dead and I don't think you can handle that and that really that that moment

[00:21:24] of standing up to him not in a physical way but really in a mental kind of cerebral way is a breakthrough

[00:21:32] for Zander we don't see that a lot from him we don't get a lot of that from him so I was glad that

[00:21:36] we got it in this episode um yeah I we do have a little bit of physical from him also you know when

[00:21:43] he's wrestling with the guys in the car and he takes the one guy's head off with the mailbox and

[00:21:49] there's there's certain by accident yeah but we see the we do see that he has the physical attributes

[00:21:56] like Jason like you said that his weaknesses are played up more but we get to see a little bit of that

[00:22:02] in this and I like that we throughout the series we have Zander has these moments where like he

[00:22:08] when he kills the vampire in the the swimming episode with the uh at the funeral part yeah

[00:22:15] with oh with the easel yeah yeah yeah yeah with the easel and and there's there's he has these moments

[00:22:21] of breakthrough and then of course they'll do something stupid or idiotic and we'll just go

[00:22:27] oh Zander I think that it teaches us that a lot about bravery and being able to to fight is

[00:22:36] about your perspective and not necessarily about powers we got that in helpless right

[00:22:42] Buffy has her powers literally taken away from her but she still manages to defeat this very

[00:22:48] scary villain and in this episode we see that at the beginning Zander when he doesn't have a clear

[00:22:56] purpose that he's fighting he's a mess but as soon as he has a goal right his goal to stop them

[00:23:03] from blowing up the school he is a man of action and he you know he follows through and he is brave

[00:23:12] so it's a good lesson on on bravery that it's not about power right like early on Jack makes the point

[00:23:19] he's like it's not about who has the knife here you take the knife yeah yeah and I think that's why

[00:23:25] Zander's character appeals to me so much not just the fact that I was a teenage boy and

[00:23:30] Nicholas Brindon is playing a teenage boy but when he's on mission and I've said this before

[00:23:36] to other Zeds when I'm on when I get myself on mission it's like I get super focused and I get

[00:23:43] into that mindset of this is I have a mission to accomplish and I'm gonna get it done and I think

[00:23:47] that's what Zander is the same way that when he's in between missions he doesn't like he doesn't know

[00:23:52] what to do with himself and I think this episode like when he was talking to Jack it's all about him

[00:24:01] trying to figure out what it means to be cool right and and Jack said something about it's about

[00:24:09] fear what did you say who has the least fear who has the least fear and I think in some way that's

[00:24:18] if you are trying to get people's approval if you care what everyone else thinks as most teenagers

[00:24:24] do to some degree or another if you're trying to have the cool car or whatever just for your

[00:24:31] image so you'll look cool and he put too much focus on all of that you know Zander I mean

[00:24:36] I really did identify with Zander in this episode because I felt like that as a kid a lot of the

[00:24:41] times but I also felt like God you're so pathetic you know and I had both those things going on

[00:24:48] but but there is fear in that because if you're worried about that then you're afraid that people

[00:24:52] aren't gonna see you the way that they want or that you'll be seen I mean the way Cordelia just

[00:24:56] lays into them useless you're nothing you know oh yeah that's my only experience of this

[00:25:02] character and I do not like her I'm sure there's probably more well she's vish it's just

[00:25:06] Zander cheated on her so he has a comment yeah all right there's a whole thing's a little but

[00:25:13] yeah there's a whole there's a whole story arc with with the actress wanting to then getting the

[00:25:19] act she was moving gonna be moving to a different show and that's kind of a spoiler but not super

[00:25:24] sparing yeah so I mean I think where his shakingness at least in this episode comes in as in his

[00:25:30] relationships with other people and also his relationship with the team he wants to feel valued

[00:25:35] but yeah he's he's brave as hell because he just wants to help fight these demons there's no

[00:25:39] hesitation in that part of him in any of this it's more social fear than anything yeah he's not

[00:25:45] afraid of monsters he's no and then at the ends with the moment with Jack where um it's about okay now

[00:25:53] who's who's more afraid because we're about to die and I felt like this was a little force like

[00:25:59] really does Zander really not care if he's about to die here I mean the idea was that he would have

[00:26:04] less fear than Jack so he could find his own personal power and not care what everybody thought

[00:26:08] as much and be and that's how you're that's how you be cool is you just sort of rest in yourself

[00:26:14] and follow your own bliss and have have a good time in life and then when people

[00:26:19] respond to that bring them along and the ones who don't forget them that's my that's been my

[00:26:24] philosophy when I finally figured out you know after many tortures years and I think in the end he

[00:26:29] has a little bit of that because also another thing is don't talk so much because you're trying

[00:26:33] to get something with your speech and he's just he's claims he doesn't even tell the rest of the

[00:26:40] crew when they say oh it's lucky that you weren't here last night you know and he doesn't even say

[00:26:44] I was here and I I stopped some zombies or whatever he's just like okay well I just like to be

[00:26:49] in my quiet place or whatever he said because he's not he doesn't need to prove anything anymore

[00:26:54] so that was himself yeah and that's what it what it's about being cool is just how you are with

[00:26:59] yourself not worried about what other people think I think from for me what what triggered it for

[00:27:04] me in this particular this watching at this time is he he looks at that bomb and he looks at Jack

[00:27:09] and he just resigns himself to the fact that okay this is going to end and I it doesn't matter

[00:27:17] because I can't stop this but if I can convince this guy to stop it then I

[00:27:24] I don't want it but it was almost like a bluff because not only was he putting his own life at risk

[00:27:28] but all his friends who he knew were in the building too but like yeah no there was no

[00:27:32] you worried about that there was no option for him that was going to get them all out of there right

[00:27:37] so this was the only option he had and yeah just when he's if he leaned into it right then

[00:27:44] he went full hog full hog I like what you said they're Jason because I think I totally agree

[00:27:50] that it was it was a bluff moment but it was a I used to center bluff it was a centered bluff but

[00:27:58] it was it was a bluff based on like I used to play poker and I was terrible at bluffing it could

[00:28:05] I couldn't do it but I could do it when I had a hand like if I had if I knew I had something like

[00:28:13] two pair and but I knew there was better there was better options out there then I could I could push

[00:28:21] and I would bluff because I knew I kind of can win this but I can't really win it unless they fold

[00:28:29] and I think that's interesting that's what like a psychological yeah but if you know you have no

[00:28:35] chance of winning then you can't yeah yeah so I'm not I like that thought that that he was it was a

[00:28:42] bluff but at the same time it was a calculated bluff that he knew that he was I just I just

[00:28:47] said that's a real yeah and that's that cerebral moment where he he knew that he could

[00:28:53] outbluff jack like he he knew that jack well I mean the fact that jack had been raised from the dead

[00:29:01] and enjoyed this running around he knew that jack didn't want to be dead and he's like you can't

[00:29:06] get out of this room before that bomb goes off I won't let you get out of this room and even if

[00:29:11] I mean for all intents and purposes jack's not dead he's able to party it up you know so really it

[00:29:18] was about oblivion not not right yeah exactly he doesn't look dead like his his the other

[00:29:24] the other zombies that got raised were I mean even them they're having a blast you know they're not dead

[00:29:28] they're just changed one of the things I really like about this episode is that it has a different

[00:29:35] style than a lot of other Buffy episodes it has like a lighter storytelling and structural

[00:29:41] style in order to you know take the focus away from this apocalypse that's going on which is

[00:29:48] played very melodramatically there's a lot of like high melodrama in the scenes where we do

[00:29:53] it's so good it was definitely heightened from what is the usual Buffy style and they made

[00:30:01] really good use of edit with dialogue so I'm gonna play the first episode I like the way the

[00:30:08] dialogue goes from one scene into the next and this is related to the conversation we just had but

[00:30:15] it's just that it's bugging me this cool thing but I mean what is it how do you get it

[00:30:23] who doesn't have it and who decides who doesn't have it what is the essence of cool

[00:30:28] I mean you yourself eyes are considered more less cool why is that am I it's about the talking

[00:30:38] you know the way you tend to express yourself in short non-committal phrases

[00:30:43] and could be no you're in a band that's like a business class ticket to cool with complimentary

[00:30:50] mojo after takeoff I gotta learn an instrument is it hard to play guitar not the way I play it

[00:30:56] okay but on the other hand eighth grade I'm taking the flugal horn and getting zero trim

[00:31:00] so the whole instrument thing could be a mislead trim also did anything yeah one thing nobody else hats

[00:31:08] what do I have an exciting new obsession which I feel makes you very special

[00:31:14] now with the mocking which I can handle because I know I'm right about it's

[00:31:19] I'm on the track

[00:31:21] I just need to find my thing it seems like you're overthinking it

[00:31:26] I mean you got some identity issues it's not into the world can they do that

[00:31:32] these transitions in this episode yeah I love that exchange I love that exchange between them and

[00:31:37] just the the the odds of it that he's such a great character but he's like you and you and

[00:31:44] care we're talking about last week he's almost too perfect in some ways he's almost too zen-like

[00:31:50] but I just love the the two word answers and that he gives so many to so many questions that

[00:31:56] Zander has and then obviously at the very end when he's like when they want to go get something to eat

[00:32:00] he's like I'm oddly full today did you did you understand that Jason that that he was the world okay

[00:32:06] that's okay yeah yeah yeah yeah jack which just underlines the cool

[00:32:12] no-fersander that jack actually never does come back Zander thinks he just scared him away

[00:32:17] yeah we were just talking about why were we talking about Donald

[00:32:21] Logan before we started recording and because of terriers and the the guy who was in the

[00:32:26] because he was on walk-in-head yeah Michael Raymond James was on walk-in-dead

[00:32:30] yeah anyway Donald Logan had this movie called The Dallas Steve it was one of his first I think

[00:32:36] it was his first movie and it was about him and how he was good with women and his friend was

[00:32:40] jealous and he taught tried to teach him his principles which were be desire lists be excellent

[00:32:47] and be gone and I think it's not just about being good with him but just being a cool person

[00:32:53] that people like gravitate to and I think that first part be desire lists is sort of like just don't

[00:32:59] talk so much because you're not trying you know it's like don't try so hard and that will make

[00:33:07] people trust you and gravitate to you more because it feels like you don't have anything to prove

[00:33:11] so I feel like that's kind of the lesson a lot of these brooding guys like James Dean and Dylan

[00:33:18] from 902 and oh they don't say anything either there's a saying that says you know be silent

[00:33:27] and possibly be thought to be a fool speak and confirm the suspicion yeah right yeah so there's

[00:33:34] something about being reserved and quiet or you know a person of few words like Oz is that people

[00:33:43] will fill in the blanks for you and possibly assume that you're deep and cool and have really

[00:33:51] interesting things going on inside your head it's not always the case sometimes you meet one of

[00:33:56] those people a few words and you get them to finally talk and you're like I don't know it was

[00:34:00] better before it's way more impressive with us podcasters that can talk a lot and still seem cool

[00:34:06] like we do yeah you guys we are all really really cool that's true it's it's kind of like if this

[00:34:15] is gonna go off on a little bit of a tangent but it's kind of like when I started first started

[00:34:18] doing the live steves I was just doing them because I couldn't at the end of an episode of TV I

[00:34:24] couldn't remember what I what I wanted to say and I hadn't written anything down so I was like I'm

[00:34:28] just gonna record my thoughts as I go and people just liked it and I'm just like why do they like it

[00:34:34] and it's just I enjoy doing them so I've actually started doing that when I am taking notes to prep

[00:34:43] I use the speech to text feature on my phone and I have a document open and I just occasionally

[00:34:49] like pick up my phone and say my thoughts and then I have notes at the end of it and then I

[00:34:54] organized from there so you inspired me Steve you're welcome you're welcome and you know this is

[00:35:01] a total tangent but maybe if people listen to like walking dead castell care but um

[00:35:07] um I actually have encouraged other people not to do that and kept it as your domain in part

[00:35:13] because you were first but also you do it in a way that's really snappy and fun and it kind of

[00:35:20] gives a little reminder for people of what happened in the episode if everybody started calling

[00:35:25] in and doing that then it would be really repetitive but I like that you're the person that does

[00:35:31] that and you do it well thank you thank you I appreciate that um so getting back to to Buffy the

[00:35:38] Zepo um I love what you were talking about the transitions between the scenes and like when Zander

[00:35:43] we get that super melodramatic scene between Buffy and Angel and I have it do you want to hear it

[00:35:49] oh yes because we you realize we're seeing it from Zander's perspective yeah how he sees their

[00:35:54] relationship hey and I'm baking any cake long gone probably loaded with supplies gotta think

[00:36:14] I can't believe I had sex okay bombs all ready dead guys with bombs oh man I'm out of my league

[00:36:23] Buffy and I want to do I don't know what to do let me decide for you

[00:36:30] I'm going to walk into that melodramatic moment with Buffy and Angel and he's like you guys see

[00:36:36] busy oh go yeah yeah I just and we haven't even talked about the whole faith of it here when

[00:36:42] when he meets up with Faith when she's being attacked by the sisterhood of Jay did we decide

[00:36:46] how to say it yeah Jay you know and she's like oh I'm all worked up after a fight and then they have

[00:36:51] sex she just throws him out the door right away that will talk some more about it and then there's

[00:36:58] there are people like in the Buffy verse who are like I don't think we needed to have that and I'm

[00:37:04] like I kind of think we did I think first of all losing your virginity although I think virginity

[00:37:11] as a social construct is a huge moment for any teenager I think that the it tells us a lot about

[00:37:21] faith we already have heard her say that she doesn't treat men she has sex with as important but

[00:37:28] now we've actually seen it and it was hilarious and I love subverting the trope of like you know

[00:37:35] the guy will just have sex you know like hit it and quit it and then the girl will be all like

[00:37:40] mopey afterward and the idea that that faith is like I need to shower if I

[00:37:45] is sort of liberating for me as a woman it's like yeah girls can like sex too that's fine and

[00:37:51] and also a lot be emotional about it see there's this whole thing these days where um

[00:37:57] the traditionally oppressed or marginalized in media are doing the thing to their oppressors that

[00:38:06] that is typically depicted as being done to them or was done to them and um that to me it just

[00:38:12] perpetuates injustice but it's in a way that everyone roots for because it's the opposite and

[00:38:19] I don't know it's just really been getting to me more and more these days especially because I'm an

[00:38:24] old man and I just hear a lot of how old like men suck and I'm starting to get to me

[00:38:31] we are old like if I was second if I was ander and that happened to me I would want to ever

[00:38:36] talk to that woman again I'd be like so upset by that oh that's funny because I um I've been on

[00:38:44] both sides of that equation and I don't find it offensive unless there are falsehoods that lead

[00:38:52] up to it right like if the one person is like I love you it's so special and then they're like

[00:38:57] get out that sucks but like faith didn't even I mean that's just like I am warning yeah right

[00:39:05] and she's like don't worry I'll do all the work like I got it you just get here

[00:39:08] that you just made me feel differently about it that's a very good point thank you I didn't

[00:39:12] realize that zander I wasn't sure if he was actually a virgin or not he said I can't believe

[00:39:17] I just had sex but yeah it's one of those things that in that I think is again it was kind

[00:39:23] of controversial at the time because in this I don't want to get too much into spoilers but

[00:39:28] he when he and kardila were together there were some lines that they say where it makes you

[00:39:34] think they might have had had sex but then when you get this scene you go okay I guess he

[00:39:39] and kardila never actually did anything more than just make out but I don't know just because you

[00:39:46] said I can't believe I just had sex doesn't mean it was for the first time yeah it's it isn't ever

[00:39:52] really completely clear we we do know no I think it is at one point that faith is like I got

[00:39:59] there first but okay zander I don't know if zander ever confirms that that was his first but you

[00:40:07] know I think it's yeah I think it's it's it's later because there's a there's an episode where

[00:40:14] where the gang figure out that he and faith had sex and and willow is just completely devastated by it

[00:40:20] because they're yeah spoilers spoilers yeah yeah I'll tell you about this one section

[00:40:26] he seems okay with it too yeah like he didn't seem upset at these little discombobulated but okay

[00:40:31] whatever yeah he seemed a little surprised by the speed and the fact that he didn't even get to

[00:40:36] put his clothes on before he left the motel room but he didn't seem insulted or anything I think

[00:40:44] because faith never pretended that it was anything else and but I mean if you saw a scene like

[00:40:50] that with the guy who's like I'm horny let's get it on okay don't get it out of here and push

[00:40:55] the girl out without her clothes on it wouldn't be so cool no even in the 90s it wouldn't it wouldn't

[00:41:00] be considered cool even in the 90s and you do see those scenes there was a scene like that in the very

[00:41:05] first episode of extraordinary and because it's extraordinary the guy has the power of flight

[00:41:11] and he literally flies away from her I saw that she's speaking to him and he just like flies out the

[00:41:17] window and leaves yeah I love though that he gets so he gets back in the car and he sees what

[00:41:24] what the guys were buying and realizes oh they're not making a cake they're making a bomb

[00:41:29] and so he follows this logic train like I said suddenly he gets on mission like talked about

[00:41:34] a little bit ago and he goes back to the hardware store and realizes okay they've already been here

[00:41:39] and left again so now I've got to figure out where is this ball of man and I just I just like that

[00:41:45] seeing that that work of that logic train that he kind of gets on and he figures out okay they're

[00:41:52] gonna blow up the school yeah you know well he eventually sees them and then we have the hilarious

[00:41:57] scene of him dragging the guy with the right trying to get information and then he did in the mailbox

[00:42:02] beheading and and it's funny because later he also has a moment where he's like

[00:42:08] specifying to one of the zombie guys and the guy runs away and he's like I have to

[00:42:13] that was the finish yeah talk less like uh talk less because both in both cases like he didn't get

[00:42:20] to do what he wanted to do because he was too busy like grandstanding and talking and

[00:42:24] and that is a zander problem is that he's a talker and sometimes it gets in the way of being a doer

[00:42:29] hmm it does often mean he has the best funny lines on the show though like zander gets most of the

[00:42:37] comic relief that that the dialogue has I mean they all get to be funny but yeah he kind of

[00:42:44] it yeah I don't know I think you're right it's a lot about just wasting time and so that he doesn't

[00:42:51] get to do the thing but he kind of also hammers in a way that's funny but it also takes away from

[00:42:57] his personal power sometimes you know he might be of Chandler a little bit from friends his character

[00:43:04] yeah yeah there is a similarity there in this sort of yammering and nervousness nervous energy

[00:43:12] and but he's like actually funny and yeah and he's cancer than he gets credit for

[00:43:18] he's a really good looking guy and he had moments where he like even when he first encounter jack

[00:43:24] and he pulled a knife on him and he just kind of got serious for a second is like hey chill out it's

[00:43:30] like no not you know I forget what he said but there was some power there you know it wasn't just like

[00:43:35] oh my god I'm scared yeah right I mean he is battle tested right like most teenagers are not they have

[00:43:42] not been in the situations that he has been in and I mean there's no reason you would know this Jason

[00:43:48] but like he's even saved Buffy's life a couple of times several cases but like really importantly

[00:43:56] and at the end of season one she dies and he brings her back to life so he's not a completely useless

[00:44:03] matter of the team even if he's usually just buying and I could feel that even just from this episode

[00:44:07] I thought I feel like this character as a history of doing brave things and they're just kind of

[00:44:13] side lighting him here a little bit more than usual for the theme like we said earlier you know I

[00:44:18] didn't seem like he was a pathetic guy in that regard yeah well if you go back to and Penny you

[00:44:24] mentioned amines earlier if you go all the way back to that these there are three and I was thinking

[00:44:29] about this this week as I watched the Zeppo a couple of times that leading up to the Zeppo you have

[00:44:34] three very heavy episodes you have amines which is this this huge angel episode that's that's

[00:44:44] very dark not it's dark it's got some very dark moments in it and then it ends with kind of a

[00:44:50] lighter note and then you've got gingerbread which is super dark through a lot of it and then at

[00:44:57] the very end you get a few light moments with the Buffy stakes this big demon with a huge

[00:45:04] this huge wooden stake that she's been tied to and she stakes it through the neck and she's like did

[00:45:09] I get it did I get it and then you have zander and Oz falling through the ceiling and we're here

[00:45:15] to save you you know see at these light moments and then helpless the same helplessness really

[00:45:21] start yeah helplessness is so just so many messed up things in helpless and it ends on not really a

[00:45:30] a comedy note but a more lighter note between Buffy and Giles and the only bad thing about

[00:45:37] this episode are not bad thing but the unfortunate thing for like for you Jason like we were talking

[00:45:42] about the previously on all you heard was you're fired to Giles and you have no context for that

[00:45:50] but he's a watcher I know that right yeah he's a watcher yeah he's a watcher and he's a librarian

[00:45:57] and so he's still gonna be a librarian but he got fired from the from being a watcher but it seemed

[00:46:02] like he was still doing the same thing this episode yeah yeah he refused to leave Buffy because

[00:46:07] he loves him yeah he and wants to protect her and help her even though the watchers council

[00:46:13] fired him so he's he's in a sort of an odd predicament first a while it's it's gonna be several seasons

[00:46:20] and we'll talk about that probably in spoilers a little bit later yeah we can talk in spoilers

[00:46:24] the whole you're fired again that as we're seeing this episode from Zander's perspective that's

[00:46:29] really probably all he focuses on is the fact that Giles got fired and that's all that's that's

[00:46:34] really everything else is just is background to him so I like again this this whole episode is just

[00:46:41] is a lot of Zander perspective on things and so getting to see his train of thought getting to see

[00:46:48] him you know running around being chased by these these zombies and then he and the zombies

[00:46:55] are being chased by the demons is a whole is a whole big thing and I just it's it's this episode

[00:47:02] is definitely in my top five of the series I don't know it's so tough it's to rank yeah I haven't

[00:47:09] tried to rank all of my favorite episodes but I love this one for the silliness and I think the timing

[00:47:16] in the season being right in the middle is really great because the first half of the season ended

[00:47:21] on such a heavy dark note and then to sort of kick off the second half of the season with something

[00:47:27] lighter and and fun is it's a nice breath of fresh air before we dive into some more darkness

[00:47:37] oh you're I hadn't thought about it because you and Cara brought that up that that kind of episode

[00:47:41] seven episode eight of every season except for season one because it was only six episodes but

[00:47:47] or eight episodes whatever season one was that the always the seventh eight episode is like a

[00:47:52] transitioning yeah episode to where they they get into the the next half of the story and we're

[00:47:58] going to see that as a pattern throughout the the shows the shows run yeah and so that this is

[00:48:04] a good like I said those you have these three very heavy episodes and then you have this one that's

[00:48:08] kind of a palette cleanser before we're get we're gonna ramp up to the rest of season because I

[00:48:14] again spoilers I don't want to spoil the next episodes the next few episodes I haven't watched

[00:48:18] it yet but yeah there's some it's we're heavy stuff coming yeah yeah

[00:48:26] I am a girl and was a teenage girl so I know yeah I know I don't know what the experience was

[00:48:34] like for to be a teenage boy so I'm glad that the two of you are are here with me and can maybe speak

[00:48:41] to you and Jason you've already said and Steve has already said that you have ways that you identify

[00:48:46] with Xander but like how realistic I guess that's a ridiculous question but like what are the

[00:48:54] ways that you relate to him and that you think he's a good representative of like teenage boy

[00:48:59] I think personally I don't know if this is true but I feel like I more than most people

[00:49:08] thought about what is what what is it to be cool or you know how do I like attract people to me

[00:49:18] or how do I not say the wrong things you know I think that's kind of common for teenagers but

[00:49:25] I some people it seemed to just come more naturally too and so I really identified it with it in a

[00:49:32] way that was painful I hate thinking about this you know I feel like at some point I

[00:49:40] and I mean I'm always fascinated with human behavior you know if you listen to my podcast you probably

[00:49:46] see the connection there I just and I think it came at least in part from struggles with relating

[00:49:54] to people in school and if you looked from the outside it didn't look too much like I was struggling

[00:50:00] I had great friends and I dated and everything but it felt like a struggle on the inside and so

[00:50:06] I really felt for him like that scene with Cordelia was really hard well I don't know it's way

[00:50:12] really hard to watch but it seemed brutal knowing that he did that to her helps me not to test her

[00:50:17] you know it's like okay yeah she to be fair to your first impression of her she has always been

[00:50:24] sharp tongue and known for her meanness and one of my favorite moments in the episode is when she says

[00:50:35] ooh again I struck a nerve I am the surgeon of mean and just her pride in her meanness is

[00:50:42] it's funny at this point in the series now her character is gonna go through a lot of growth

[00:50:51] and already has gone through a lot of growth but when she moves over to the angel series

[00:50:56] but she never loses that sharp wit and I love it I love her for it some I used to be kind of

[00:51:04] sharp tongueed and a little bit mean myself and I have really grown out of it but I always

[00:51:12] appreciate the way she is funny and mean at the same time if you're just mean nobody wants to

[00:51:17] talk to you but if you're funny when you're mean I mean this she said that he no one notices him

[00:51:23] he called him a was nothing useless of all the humiliations you've had I witnessed that was

[00:51:30] the latest and then she walks off and says there's no part of that that wasn't fun and I'm just like

[00:51:36] wow you are a despicable evil person and then she said he's the Zephyr with the useless part

[00:51:42] of the group like Zephyr Marks I'm guessing I'm sure if I had seen her development up to this episode

[00:51:51] and their history that I would feel differently about it but just with that with no context

[00:51:56] yeah I was like what where did that come from I can see that I can see I can definitely see that

[00:52:05] with no with no context for me the the zander question I'm I was very different than zander

[00:52:14] in high school then he is so I don't think I don't necessarily relate to him on on that level

[00:52:21] um because I didn't I I was very I didn't date I was very heavy set and I not I don't think I

[00:52:28] was self-conscious but I didn't I didn't care about being cool um and I just kind of I had my friends

[00:52:37] and we hung out we played D&D or we played whatever role playing game that we were doing at the time

[00:52:43] I wasn't smart enough to be a nerd but I wasn't dumb either so I don't I don't necessarily

[00:52:50] identify him on on those levels it's the it's like the being on mission thing the that I mentioned

[00:52:56] before it was the the the awkwardness of him I think too because I did have a lot of that awkwardness

[00:53:04] I think to where when I was younger and even in in my late 20s I was still very awkward around women

[00:53:13] and not not sharp like that so I think yeah that might be part of it but it's it's it's

[00:53:20] tough read a pinpoint I just I know this time I'm gonna need to start watching for those qualities

[00:53:27] that might have I think for me just the I like the entire series um from the from the time I first

[00:53:34] started watching I might have mentioned this the last time I was on but I I started watching it

[00:53:40] from the beginning and always liked it never really had any any issues so it was it's I just

[00:53:47] enjoyed the series all of the the ensemble of the characters I think also was what appealed to me

[00:53:54] I did identify with Xander the most but that's because he was the guy I think and

[00:54:00] but he didn't have any I think that's that's what that's what now as I'm talking this through

[00:54:04] I'm getting it out it's the non-superness with him that's what I kind of like the

[00:54:10] standard for the audience in some ways maybe sometimes I don't know yeah yeah but it's the

[00:54:17] non-superness of him and and the bravery that being a non not being not super powered but yet

[00:54:25] still being in the fray was was I think for me so it's like um it's like Hawkeye right in the

[00:54:33] Avengers he's not super powered and he has that whole speech in Age of Ultron where he's like

[00:54:39] listen I'm just a guy with a bow and arrow but I'm gonna go out there and do what I can do

[00:54:42] and Xander's a little bit of a Hawkeye yeah yeah what was I just watching oh on big bang theory they

[00:54:50] said something about nobody ever calls Hawkeye never calls for Hawkeye yeah to just made the day

[00:54:56] but he's always there that's good yeah and I think that's what Xander is nobody's gonna call for him

[00:55:01] to save the day necessarily but he's always there he's always there and he's always willing to

[00:55:07] put in and I think that's what I identified because just like on on lost I identified with with

[00:55:14] Saeed even though we're very different but he was always doing what needed to be done yeah is is what

[00:55:22] and and that's that's what I look at Xander's he'd always he'll do what needs to be done yeah

[00:55:27] that was clear no matter what any shakiness whenever it came time like I want to help what's going on

[00:55:32] with the end of the world I want to help right there I've just been watching rewatching one of my

[00:55:37] favorite series from when I was a kid the greatest American hero that probably

[00:55:42] I love that and one thing watching that now it's like because it's this guy who aliens gave him

[00:55:50] this suit that gives him superpowers and his buddy who's an FBI agent that helps him find the

[00:55:57] crimes to solve and the buddy is Bill Maxwell I forget he's played by the guy that was in Robert

[00:56:04] Colt Robert Colt he's out there with no superheroes getting shot up banged up all the I mean no

[00:56:10] superpowers yeah and he's kind of like Xander you know he's like it gets in there anyway I think

[00:56:14] it's my favorite my favorite episode of that series is is the one where they go where they

[00:56:19] think they're protecting this witness and it's actually Bill that they're that's being attacked

[00:56:25] and he's the one and and there's a point in that episode and this is why I totally see the parallels

[00:56:30] now with Xander and and Bill and in this series because there's a there's a moment in that episode

[00:56:36] the greatest American hero where Ralph Ralph looks at him and goes you're you're you're the one who's

[00:56:43] getting all shot up and but you're still in the fight yeah and he's at one point he's like on one

[00:56:50] way with a correction is an arm bandage and he's carrying his gun and that's yeah that's that's

[00:56:57] standard he's the guy that's gonna do what needs to be done you when you were doing the podcast

[00:57:02] about amends you know even though he doesn't like angel he's willing to jump right in and research

[00:57:07] and try to figure out okay what's wrong with him yeah I know that he's needed he's very loyal to

[00:57:13] his chosen family which is this gubigang that is you know surrounds Buffy and her slaying and

[00:57:22] it's the reason one of the reasons why his betrayal of Cordelia

[00:57:27] hits so hard because she and everyone always thought of Xander as being super loyal and the fact

[00:57:35] that he was disloyal to her made it hurt her so much because she never thought it was something he

[00:57:42] would be capable of doing it it's uh it was hard for the audience to take two I think we got a lot

[00:57:49] of feedback from listeners who were like I hate this whole storyline like people just really didn't

[00:57:54] like seeing Xander and Willow being disloyal to Oz and Cordelia it hurt them

[00:58:04] sounds very teenager eventually yeah I'll eventually forgive Willow but um Cordelia

[00:58:13] like she's she's a scorched earth kind of person like you betray her and yeah she's gonna make

[00:58:19] your life hell as much as she possibly can then I can sympathize with that yeah I respect that um

[00:58:27] I never realized that that line I'm the surgeon of mean uh came from Buffy I have used it a lot

[00:58:36] in my life and I've said it about either being the surgeon of mean or the surgeon of funny my

[00:58:43] my younger brother is like Oz he just doesn't talk very much he's a man of few words but every now

[00:58:49] and then he has he drops a bomb into the middle of a conversation that just like it's the funniest

[00:58:57] possible comment to make at that moment he makes it at exactly the right time and then it's like

[00:59:03] mic drop I'm out yeah and so I always say like he's the surgeon of funny yeah that's insane

[00:59:09] be desireless be excellent and be gone yeah it's amazing when he does yeah we have a we have a mic drop

[00:59:18] moment in this in this episode when Cordelia says you're the Zepo there's the yeah there's the

[00:59:22] mic drop moment title of the episode that I totally didn't bring out because I didn't like see that

[00:59:27] so um but yeah it's it's this whole series it's just really they they drop these nuggets of

[00:59:35] episodes in there everyone's the violent and and lines that you just it's it's the like my favorite

[00:59:42] line from is it beauty in the beast was earlier this season yeah or is that coming out okay yeah

[00:59:48] it's this early this season and my favorite line of the entire series is when Oz is being beaten up by

[00:59:53] this other other guy who's who's strong and super strong and Oz starts to change into a werewolf and

[00:59:59] he just he looks and you see the sun going down and he says times up rules change and then he

[01:00:05] changes into a werewolf and it's it's that's what this show has has those moments and and that's

[01:00:11] what you know Zander looking at Jack and saying I like the quiet or I like the silence yeah is

[01:00:19] that that mic drop moment for for Zander that even though it might be a bluff and like we talked

[01:00:25] about it's a calculated bluff it's still him going I like the silence and we have that at

[01:00:31] moment and I had forgotten I use the term every once in a while I'll do the hello nasty to something

[01:00:36] that's just awful yeah another a powerful line I thought was when um Zander was like I want to be

[01:00:46] in your group uh and they're like oh that's a spirit he goes how do I do it and he holds up Jack

[01:00:51] holds up the knife you die yeah what was it the knife was named Katie yes you know and he's

[01:01:01] like what's you know what's the difference between you and me and Zander's like again Katie you know

[01:01:08] it's when when Jack hands in the knife and says well now you've got the knife what are you

[01:01:11] gonna do with it but yeah there's and the girl we didn't mention the the girl in this episode

[01:01:16] oh the car the car bimbo totally fast yeah the car bimbo is just totally fast in my cars and

[01:01:21] she asked Zander to help I have a friend of mine who does it remakes or does class has classic cars

[01:01:31] and he builds them and puts them together and takes them to shows and stuff and he has a Chevy

[01:01:36] 2-door 2-10 wagon he just loves it when somebody calls it something that it's not and he can

[01:01:41] explain to them why no this is a 2-10 this is this is Chevy 2-10 it's not a belay or it's not a

[01:01:46] this it's not a bad it's a it's a 2-10 and so when I heard every time she was spout off those kind of

[01:01:52] things I've just remember my friend saying something to me and me going you have no clue I understand

[01:01:57] all the words that are coming out of your mouth but I don't understand stringing them together

[01:02:01] I don't yeah like he'd be listening I like that she she's like oh yeah this one guy has one car

[01:02:06] and yeah but then his upholstery was shot so I dated somebody else yeah she was a hilarious caricature

[01:02:15] and um I would have enjoyed having her show back up as in just a small way somewhere else in the

[01:02:22] series because just being obsessed with cars and only dating guys with cars is such a pointless

[01:02:29] oh and I thought she was going to be a glue man you know and Jason you you Uncle Rory is a running is a

[01:02:38] we never meet Uncle Rory but he is a running thing I think it comes to the wedding in season six

[01:02:44] okay maybe yeah I didn't don't remember that but yeah I just yeah Uncle when he says

[01:02:49] on his Uncle Rory got too many DUIs and so now I'm gonna you he's letting you run this way

[01:02:54] for you yeah yeah yeah yeah we don't actually see Zander's parents until season six

[01:03:03] oh wow okay I don't think we ever see Willow's father we only ever meet her mother

[01:03:08] uh parents are not super involved in this show except for Joyce

[01:03:13] who I love yeah and Joyce isn't in this so yeah which means I didn't get to play my favorite sound

[01:03:19] effect where she says so do you live here in town uh which is only funny if you know the context um

[01:03:27] uh so um what do you guys think is the essence of cool I mean it's it's different

[01:03:36] for it can it's not I don't think there's one essence but in the context of this episode

[01:03:44] I thought it was just not seeking approval from everyone else but instead figuring out kind of

[01:03:53] like what Steve is saying what is your mission what is your purpose what lights you up

[01:03:58] what do you enjoy what do you care about and do that and then the people that align with that will

[01:04:05] come around you and the people that don't don't worry about them I don't know if that's cool so much

[01:04:10] but it's a way of being that is better than being super uncool yeah chasing coolness is not

[01:04:18] really that's clear yeah I think it's that's yeah I'm sure of that it's different I think it's different

[01:04:24] for everybody and it's different different times in your life uh it's it's gonna be different um

[01:04:31] because you're not you're rarely gonna have the same people around you all the time right

[01:04:38] is that makes sense um and as you age in your life changes you can't like things that were cool

[01:04:45] in high school if you're still doing them when you're 50 um yeah you probably need some deep therapy

[01:04:52] even if it was perfectly reasonable then and this is a little bit why sometimes I feel critical

[01:04:59] of actors who want their characters only to be cool and badass because I feel like that comes from

[01:05:06] a place of looking for approval like why can't you play a character that has some human flaws you

[01:05:12] know because you're too afraid that people aren't gonna like you anymore and then that makes me not

[01:05:17] it not like that much yeah right like if they're willing to play somebody who looks ridiculous or

[01:05:25] gets humiliated or loses or is ugly yeah like those like Philip see more hop-and-type characters

[01:05:32] respect respect and actor yeah exactly I have always think that it must be really fun to play a

[01:05:41] character that is a giant loser or a supervillain or like just all the different ways that you could

[01:05:48] be not the hero I feel like that would almost be more fun because it's less pressure to carry the story

[01:05:55] and and you get to spend all your time making your character unique and interesting and you get

[01:06:01] to express some things that maybe you don't really want to in your real life but it can be an outlet

[01:06:07] but I mean I think you're we would all agree that you're the coolest one here so what would you say

[01:06:13] Penny oh yeah which the essence which your essence of cool that reminds me many years ago I lived

[01:06:21] in a neighborhood of Boston called the Fenway and there was a coffee shop there called designs for

[01:06:26] living and I went to that coffee shop almost every day and on Sundays I like to get the New York Times

[01:06:31] and hang out there with a coffee and like do the New York Times and sometimes talk to some of the

[01:06:36] other people who lived in the Fenway and an article came out in some Boston newspaper that was about

[01:06:41] the Fenway and it listed all these different restaurants and things in the neighborhood and when it

[01:06:45] got to the coffee shop it said this is where the Fenway's ultra hip natives like to hang out

[01:06:52] and I was like am I ultra hip and my little sister was with me and she goes no not now you were

[01:06:59] you were ultra hip from when we picked up that paper until you said that out and then it's done

[01:07:06] like beat the awareness of being cool kind of kills the coolest but um I think it's a lot about

[01:07:13] being true to yourself like we've been saying I think it's about risk taking people that I think are

[01:07:22] cool are people that buck the status quo who try new things who go to new places who are interested

[01:07:32] in other people and and curious about the world it's one of the things I like about this

[01:07:38] podcast to community that I've become a part of is that pretty much everybody in the community is

[01:07:43] like that they want to know you know what was your life like and what's your perspective on this and

[01:07:50] you know what is something else that's interesting that I could get interested in like everybody's very

[01:07:55] engage me cool yeah and being engaged is cool like there's a there's a certain group of people

[01:08:02] that think being bored and being blase is cool but I that's not for me yeah I'm more of a like

[01:08:09] dive in and go whole hog yeah I mean I think yeah the thing about being bored or blase or

[01:08:17] contrary is it's more trustable because when someone is trying really hard to like oh yeah agree

[01:08:24] with everything that you like because they want you to like them then you don't trust is like

[01:08:29] you're just saying all of that because you want something from me whereas if someone acts

[01:08:34] bored or uninterested or or contrary then you might be like you it'll turn you into the person

[01:08:41] like hey why aren't they seeking my approval what don't I know so it's this weird psychological

[01:08:46] thing but for me when I got to a certain age I'm like no I don't want to be like that if I'm excited

[01:08:52] about something I want to say it you know I don't care and that feels better you know yeah it's part

[01:08:59] of the growth of you know geek culture or nerd culture you know when when we were all kids being

[01:09:05] a nerd being into like science fiction shows and movies and wanting to talk about your favorite

[01:09:10] shows or books or stories was considered nerdy and uncool and it's like our generation was like no

[01:09:16] it is cool and we just decided it yeah and we were like nope we're gonna make it cool and it's

[01:09:21] cool to be really really excited about the things you're excited about and then it just flipped

[01:09:26] well and one cool thing about the internet and lately it feels like there's a lot less cool

[01:09:33] but it's cool yeah but one cool thing is if you like something you can put it out there and

[01:09:37] attract other people who like it and then you can feel sort of validated in that and find your

[01:09:43] people you know rather than just feel like oh man why am I the only one you're all alone in it

[01:09:48] yeah what about the zombies in this episode what did you think about this version of zombie hood

[01:09:54] I mean it was awesome to see cutlets for one thing Michael Cuddlets yeah people who don't know

[01:09:59] Michael Cuddlets is a very beloved member of the Walking Dead cast and also a director of many

[01:10:07] walking dead episodes and so we are all walking dead fans and he always played kind of

[01:10:13] jokish bully types when he was younger he was in gross point blank and I loved him and that and

[01:10:19] when I did a Q&A panel with him I got him to recite that drunk poem that he

[01:10:24] didn't have a movie oh that's such a great moment I love it but uh I had some notes about the

[01:10:29] these guys as can I go into it is that cool yeah please so um I think they're kind of like

[01:10:34] the cool bad boys you know and zander getting mixed up with the wrong crowd that's what they

[01:10:39] represent because his friends are ignoring him and so he has time on his hands and they're seemingly

[01:10:44] interested and it just um it touches on the importance of friends and how they can shape your life

[01:10:51] and everything um I thought it was really fun to see him raise his bro friends from the dead because

[01:10:58] they're all like coming out of the grave and ready to party yeah it was hilarious and uh

[01:11:05] like Cuddlets uh I can't believe you raised me that is so awesome you are the coolest

[01:11:11] and then he went to another guy jack and he's like the blood of the urshelver store him and he

[01:11:15] shall rise and then you see his head come through and he's like dudes they want to like party and pick

[01:11:22] up girls and just like destroy things so I get they're just like the bad boys and I thought it was

[01:11:27] kind of funny that it didn't even face them that they had died and they didn't there was no adjustment

[01:11:32] period towards being undead they were just like party ready to party yeah yeah yeah definitely

[01:11:40] and then um when they need they need him for his uh to be the wheel man so getting the car

[01:11:47] did help with these guys but it was that just shows how shallow they are and uh I guess that's

[01:11:54] what I thought I thought it was funny that Cuddlets died by a vending machine

[01:11:59] I liked them I thought they were funny and that's what I really liked

[01:12:04] yeah Steve what do you what about you what do you think about these in terms of the the spectrum

[01:12:09] of zombies that we enjoy you know it's it's always it's always fun to get the intelligent

[01:12:15] undead the intelligent zombie kind of thing is always it's always a a draw because you you're used

[01:12:21] to the ones we see in the walking dead when they're just they're just you know there's no

[01:12:25] movement they're all messed up um the walking dead cast but um I liked them I again I think

[01:12:34] there's a there's a certain aspect of the the intelligent zombie the zombie that can talk or

[01:12:41] that this one party just wants to party you know I just I'm not gonna eat your brains I just want

[01:12:46] to I just want to party and hang out and blow up your school and make a cake yeah blow up a school

[01:12:50] and that's that's a side note um see see I I enjoyed them I enjoyed I remember

[01:12:58] watching it for the first time I think I hadn't really been exposed to much horror stuff so

[01:13:05] didn't I didn't care that they could talk in in all this you know that it wasn't they weren't

[01:13:11] trying to eat brains or anything and so yeah I liked them yeah I didn't care about that

[01:13:18] I like because I don't I think it would it just doesn't make sense to me to critique this

[01:13:24] in terms of oh how would it all be really be or something like that you know yeah that's

[01:13:29] there to be the bad boy crowd that attracts him and yeah and it's just because it's the hell mouth

[01:13:35] that the bad boy crowd is dead and comes back to life that's just a sunny day special

[01:13:41] because in any other town you know zander would just get messed up with guys that want to like

[01:13:45] roville liquor for or something like this is sunny day so yeah gonna have to be dead guys

[01:13:52] I love the scene with giles where giles is trying to raise the spirits and zander runs into

[01:13:59] and I I clipped it of course

[01:14:07] try out hey what's going on oh just trying to gain access to the

[01:14:16] spirit guides not going very well all right uh what do you think you oh we were just raising

[01:14:21] uh some heck gander go

[01:14:30] listen do you guys need me help oh thank you probably that's the few you stay out of trouble

[01:14:38] reaching today gander motor something different about this

[01:14:46] yes many something in the air

[01:14:50] standard uh yeah I think it's a bar we may all be called up under five when it happens

[01:14:57] when what happens exactly i better go um hopefully we should have time to prepare

[01:15:03] what we need is a few weeks tonight there's another one of those transitions that you're

[01:15:10] you're talking about that that it goes from you know giles thing oh we just need a few weeks

[01:15:15] and then tonight it's happening tonight and this is you know this is where in sunny day all we need

[01:15:20] to know the what was it uh in later seasons I don't want to spoil anything too much but i

[01:15:24] care just gonna ask what's the uh what's the plural of apocalypse yeah just apocalypse is um yeah

[01:15:31] i think this is uh the fourth apocalypse on the show

[01:15:36] so let's see the master it's either the third or the fourth yeah oh it's fifth i think it's the fifth

[01:15:44] that whole storyline kind of because it was like we've said it was a bit uh almost like a parody

[01:15:50] it's the thing going on in the background that usually is in the foreground of this show

[01:15:54] i i think it seems like and it reminded me a little bit i got all these old show references but

[01:16:00] moonlighting with uh Bruce Willis and civil shepherd their private investigators and the early

[01:16:06] seasons were all about the cases that they would get but then that got tired and so they would

[01:16:11] just have other storylines going on in the cases we're just kind of like a background thing that

[01:16:15] didn't really matter so much you know yeah and they ramped up the drama on the on the side story

[01:16:22] you know and i love that we never truly see the monster we just see like some of its tentacles

[01:16:28] and that one moment when the one zombies running past the library and stops and looks in the window

[01:16:33] he's like wow yeah and uh it's good stuff i didn't yeah and um the jack at the end is like

[01:16:45] he's like a next time you turn your back i'm gonna get you and opens the door and gets eaten by

[01:16:50] os so they so i did know i must have seen an episode where the set green guy os was was a

[01:17:02] werewolf i knew that and so they let him out of this cage and trinked him just so they could bring him

[01:17:08] to the fight area and have him help is that what was going on no they i think they moved him from his

[01:17:14] cage because the cage was really close to where the hell mouth was gonna open up and so they trinked him

[01:17:20] and moved him just to get him out of the way because when he's a werewolf you he doesn't have any control

[01:17:25] he was in a locked room and yeah and that's how we got out um an eight jack which is

[01:17:36] the lemon spot like for os to eat people but since jack was on his head it's like it's already dead

[01:17:44] so technically i love it i think it's another one of my favorite moments of the show is in the

[01:17:50] episode when they're talking to faith about os being a werewolf in the zander system like it's a

[01:17:56] long story or or buppy says it's a long story and then os just goes got bit and i guess not that long

[01:18:03] story actually is what is the next there's got bit um such a classic os moment the man of few words

[01:18:11] yeah i um somebody on facebook created a new like which buppy burst character argue like psychological

[01:18:19] quiz whatever and i got a's as my answer and i was like oh man i wish i could be that cool and zen

[01:18:26] and in real life and laid back i am definitely not i've always most identified with willow

[01:18:31] as being sort of like i was a smart nerdy kid who had unrequited crushes on my best friends and

[01:18:40] well i had a point i would have loved to have witchy powers i had a point just quick hits of the

[01:18:47] characters without much context and where i knew them before this so i go into that just kind of yeah

[01:18:53] let's hear it for you know time at least in decades watching any of this um zander's nerdy goofy

[01:19:01] awkward but funny and loyal helpful and brave that's why god of him reminding me of Matthew Perry

[01:19:09] i it stood out that his top priority top priority was helping his friends that seemed like his

[01:19:15] number one thing my view of this episode was a little bit colored by i think she was going to tell

[01:19:22] it on your podcast sam on her story of asking nick olisbrennan a question at a convention and he

[01:19:27] was a jerk yeah she did tell it on the podcast she told me that i was like oh man i got to get

[01:19:34] that out of my head because his character's not like that at all um cordelia i just didn't like

[01:19:40] at all uh fay fierce and horny that's the only two things i got out of this episode i'm sure she's

[01:19:47] that's that's accurate that's accurate i knew her from the lead in dollhouse another joss

[01:19:55] weedon show that i really liked even though it was very uneven she wasn't quite up to the task

[01:20:00] of that role because it required her if you know the premise they can inhabit different personalities

[01:20:07] inhabit these dolls and so you have to be able to act like totally different type people

[01:20:13] and there was yeah i always thought that there was a lot of Eliza douxku that that came through

[01:20:18] in all of her character and Amy acca was another actress in that show that when she played other

[01:20:26] characters i was like oh she should have been the lead she's so good at you just think she's someone

[01:20:29] totally different she's another she's a leading double person she was in she's an angel we'll get

[01:20:35] her starting in season two of angel two or three she's right um yeah and once you watch orphan black

[01:20:44] and you see um and the actress and i was like patiana mazlani yeah mazlani once you see her do it

[01:20:51] when you watch doll when you watched dollhouse again it just yeah yeah it doesn't even it's too bad

[01:20:56] but uh other ones uh Seth green i i like i said i think i knew he was a werewolf like you didn't get

[01:21:03] too much of his character in this except that he's a man if you were she seems a little wounded or

[01:21:07] something i don't know um but he might still be feeling wounded at this point from the willows and

[01:21:14] are cheating fiasco but mostly he's just like yeah it's just like very even killed okay

[01:21:22] this is prior to them getting back together no they're back together no you're right in helpless

[01:21:26] they got back together in helpless right yeah because he says it was like i was missing a torso

[01:21:31] so they might i wonder if they filmed these out of order yeah because i was thinking that zepo could have

[01:21:37] gone anywhere after a mens they could have like slotted it well no it had to come before bad girls

[01:21:44] anyway yeah but yeah i think i i wouldn't be surprised if this was this was filmed before helpless

[01:21:54] yeah just because of what you're saying about osu's character not being right there next to willow

[01:22:00] uh all the time so and with him seth green i knew him as dr evil sun in austin powers and the voice of

[01:22:10] howard the duck in the mc you yeah willow i knew she was a witch so i must have seen that somewhere

[01:22:19] in an episode i watched decades ago i just think of her as super nice and quirky with a very

[01:22:24] distinctive way of being as i can't really describe it anymore than that but um and alison handigan i

[01:22:32] knew her just from this like i ain't seen enough to really get a distinct impression of her probably

[01:22:38] more than any other character it really stood out her performance but i know she was in how i met

[01:22:44] your mother but i didn't really watch very much of that um i'm not gonna probably be making any

[01:22:50] friends saying this but i think buffy i always thought she seemed a bit bland very focused powerful fierce

[01:22:58] but um i didn't i knew sarah michelle geller from um all my children where she was ericacaine's daughter

[01:23:07] Kendall yeah and i just never thought she had much range but am i wrong like if i watched

[01:23:12] this series more would i get a new more i think if you watch the series she has a lot more yeah

[01:23:17] this this episode is not is not indicative of sarah michelle geller's acting ability no i mean she

[01:23:23] was kind of a knight definitely and she's being like really melodramatic and ridiculous yeah i think

[01:23:30] that season one of buffy is is like we said it's just weak and so the acting you saw from her and

[01:23:38] that like the writing in season one isn't as funny isn't as quippy she's not given as many

[01:23:43] interesting things to do it just gets so much deeper um in season two when angel turns evil

[01:23:53] and she has to deal with that and that's when her character gets really interesting and then it

[01:24:01] carries through the rest of the series she also gets to be funnier a lot more starting in season two

[01:24:08] yeah she gets a lot more quippy lines yeah yeah she's and in particular if you watch any of the

[01:24:15] three episodes before this the amends uh gingerbread and helpless i think you'll see the

[01:24:20] way she has yeah in those yeah yeah helpless is a remarkable episode in terms of

[01:24:31] sarah michelle geller's acting she has to portray a lot of things that she doesn't regularly portray

[01:24:38] as buffy and it's really interesting although i don't know if it would stand out to you without having

[01:24:43] seen some of the other ones first right i wouldn't go watch that one next um because uh it won't

[01:24:50] work without the context yeah that's one that's context um and then last this guy telling buffy

[01:24:57] that the demons are doing their thing tonight and they're specifically coming after buffy and angel

[01:25:03] you know the guy that was all beat up oh yeah willie he's so viero gera and he plays mokajou on curb your

[01:25:11] enthusiasm oh okay i didn't know he was on curb i never yeah i never watched that show so yeah it's great

[01:25:17] so um so you know jason he runs a demon bar he's a human but he runs a bar that demons and vampires

[01:25:26] hang out at and and buffy regularly beats him up for information but in this particular episode he

[01:25:33] was already beat up when she got there interesting sounds very true blood so they call it

[01:25:38] swirly the slayers here the slayer yeah oh yeah he'll always be like oh the slayers here and then all

[01:25:45] his clientele will like slowly stand up and just like fade out of the room they're all like oh no

[01:25:52] we don't want her to slay us while we're in here i love willie's bar it's one of my favorite concedes

[01:25:57] on the show because i think the idea that demons meet a place to go and socialize and hang out is

[01:26:03] really funny i reminds me of true blood a little bit yeah what did you think of giles did you have

[01:26:10] something on there um i mean cuz you don't get a lot of it but i have a sense of him like i said

[01:26:16] as a professor x type character intelligent cerebral in command knowledgeable

[01:26:27] you know good person you know he has a really fun back story where you find out that when he was

[01:26:34] a teenager he was not a good person and some of his past comes back to haunt him from time to time

[01:26:43] and his teenager name was ripper and so every now and then you get to see ripper the ripper version

[01:26:50] of giles and um karen i are always like you mean sexy giles we like ripper

[01:26:59] yeah i think i think i could appreciate giles character more now than i did in my late 20s

[01:27:06] watching it um because that's because now i'm closer to i'm older than what he's portraying

[01:27:13] i think he's supposed to be like in his mid 40s or something like that but he yeah he looks more

[01:27:17] like he's probably at his 50s and so i i can more relate to some of the things with him and so i

[01:27:23] i think i'm appreciating that character a lot more in this rewatch me too than i ever have before

[01:27:28] and i am obsessed with joys yeah when you watch a show like cheers for example as a kid

[01:27:36] and then you grow up and watch it again and you're like cliff was i mean phrasier was 30 years old

[01:27:40] with the hell yeah whatever yeah when you realized it will for brimley was our age was our age now

[01:27:47] when he did cocoon and you look at it you go what's what's so different yeah yeah or like i think

[01:27:54] i'm the same age as like the youngest golden girl yes something like this and what was it jason

[01:28:00] you said something about pat marita uh we're now older than he was when he did the karate kid

[01:28:07] yeah yeah oh aging it happens it's true but some of us would become in silver foxes

[01:28:16] we'll hold on to that so some of us are becoming purple foxes so there you go there you go

[01:28:23] i lost track of who is it they they oh they keep talking about rick uh oh rick rhymes he'd back

[01:28:28] so they they uh kira when you and kira were on the the feedback show yeah that he's like a silver fox now

[01:28:35] it still reflux yeah yeah andy linkin very handsome guy when he doesn't have the like full bushy beard

[01:28:41] that is all scary he's he's the most creeper or something yeah that guy

[01:28:50] and he can lean we touched down it briefly but that ending speech where kordelia is trying to cut him

[01:28:57] down and he's just standing there kind of staring at her and then he just walks away and she's like what

[01:29:03] what how are you know and she's so floored by the fact that she can't get to him and i'm gonna be

[01:29:08] interested to to watch this over the next few episodes to see how that progresses with them because

[01:29:15] i don't remember i don't remember how that relationship goes so that's i'm excited to to see that

[01:29:21] in that like it's that ending scene always gets me where he's just walking away with that slice

[01:29:25] smile on his face and she's just like what you know so yeah he turns the tables on her meanness which

[01:29:32] is uh a good moment for him but because i have my issues with zander and how he's relationships with

[01:29:39] women part of me is like oh kordelia yeah now and through the lens of what jw has become it's

[01:29:47] it's also it's sometimes tough to watch and like i said it's hard for me to defend him sometimes

[01:29:51] yeah this episode i think it's it i mean what's thinking about him and it's interesting how

[01:29:58] you know we have to sort of reconcile our thoughts about him with

[01:30:02] well in your guys' case you're love for the show but there's a lot of things like that where the

[01:30:06] person has been revealed to be something and you're like uh wow but with him um i mean i love

[01:30:12] serenity and dollhouse so i'm a big joss weed fan i had been you know of his stuff

[01:30:18] but now it's like okay i still like those things but he's not allowed to do anything else is that okay

[01:30:25] too i think he's probably still doing stuff just not as publicly in the public eye uh he's

[01:30:32] you know he's got a successful production company and they turn out constant content he probably

[01:30:38] still owns all the buffy licenses and there's like nine million buffy comic books out there

[01:30:43] and there's a part of me that's like he well he shouldn't be able to do that you know i mean

[01:30:48] so i don't yeah it's i mean the thing about the allegations against him is that he was an abusive jerk

[01:30:56] but i don't know if he ever did anything that was like illegal or criminal you know in any way so

[01:31:02] it's true yeah i say it just like well he was selective he apparently from from what i and i

[01:31:07] not read deeply into it but from what i've heard and the few things i've seen he was very selective

[01:31:12] yeah he was only abusive to certain people that's creepy yeah um so i only had one more point it's

[01:31:18] just funny things i thought we're funny yeah oh good uh i liked when aaz was growling in his cage and

[01:31:25] willow said he's cranky i don't know what it's like anyway such an understanding that world yeah

[01:31:32] giles is going on about the problem they're trying to solve with the apocalyptic end of the world

[01:31:38] and says all we know is that the fate of the entire world rests on it and then he looks in the

[01:31:42] donut box did you eat all the jellies i always have three i've got three i don't want to say let's

[01:31:49] have a jellie in the mix and then well it goes we're sorry buffy had three yeah um yeah and then when

[01:31:56] zander says to jack the important things that were all right and we can work this out like two

[01:32:03] reasonable and then he pulls up the knife and he goes frontiersman there are a few more that we've

[01:32:11] already mentioned but i guess my favorite was that aaz was oddly full yeah that's good so

[01:32:20] well let's get into some trivia and there's a lot of fun trivia for this episode

[01:32:27] and i'll start us off that chanon row the actor who played jacko tool in this episode can also be

[01:32:34] seen with Seth green in the movie can't hardly wait and with nicklaus brendan again in the 2000 movie

[01:32:40] psycho beach party i have not seen psycho beach party we are considering can't hardly wait for one of

[01:32:48] our season breaks we might cover that is that another good sort of teenager movie when

[01:32:54] that was in party of five is she the star no who starred in that yeah it's Jennifer

[01:33:00] i love you it yeah yeah yeah and it's like a it's one of those high school house party

[01:33:05] moves where there's like a giant party you need more of those

[01:33:10] michael kudlitz who played the zombie bob in this episode has been in band of brothers

[01:33:16] that sergeant denver bull randellman forces of nature gross point blank a river runs through it

[01:33:23] Beverly Hills 90210 as to any miller 24 as agent rift billets and of course our favorite post

[01:33:31] apocalyptic redhead redhead abraham in the walking dead sergeant abraham i forgot about

[01:33:39] him yeah in 24 and also he he was in lost a couple episodes of lost as well

[01:33:45] we have a thread playing a top that's right so nicklaus brendan has said that he cried when he first

[01:33:50] read the script for the zippo as he was so delighted with it and its meaning for his character he says

[01:33:56] it's one of his favorite episodes it would be right he gets to be the big star i don't think he

[01:34:03] we have another very zandit zandersetric episode until the replacement in season four

[01:34:10] which is another really great one uh steve you'll definitely have to come back on for that one

[01:34:16] yeah uh we'll talk about that in schoolers probably yeah uh aliza duchku was quoted talking about her

[01:34:22] family seeing her sex scene in this episode my grandmother wouldn't return my phone calls for two

[01:34:27] weeks after the zander romp scene in the hotel room i remember my little cousins were all excited

[01:34:32] because i was on the show and in the middle of the scene their father turned off the television

[01:34:36] so they went to school the next day being the only kids who had not seen the outcome all their

[01:34:41] friends went your cousin had sex and they weren't you really yeah it's too bad we don't have

[01:34:50] somebody who can who was watching this way too young uh on with us this time oh yeah kara

[01:34:57] she really should not have been watching this at the age of watching it oh no yeah and by the way

[01:35:01] kara i don't know if you're listening but i'm bummed that didn't work out for you to come on

[01:35:04] i was looking forward to talking with you about the show uh next vaughan armed strong who played

[01:35:10] the cop in the episode might be familiar to star trek fans he's made eighteen appearances in

[01:35:15] various star trek series has eleven different characters of eight different races he played

[01:35:21] admiral maxwell forest in star trek enterprise harry in days of our lives and has also appeared

[01:35:29] in episodes of the west wing he are Beverly Hills 920 phrasier sign filled and cheaters he got

[01:35:35] around wow yeah uh witty dillon who played zander's car mad date lezzette is that was that

[01:35:42] her name lezzette i don't know if we ever heard it also played also played a serving girl in the angel

[01:35:48] episode there's no place like prince groom she also appeared in coyote ugly we are at the point

[01:35:56] of the episode where i ask a somewhat ridiculous question which is does it still slay Steve what do you

[01:36:04] think i mean for me most most assuredly even though there's a there's a couple of things that are

[01:36:10] dated there's a couple of things that like i said at the beginning you kind of have to watch it through

[01:36:14] the the nineties kind of lens but yeah for me it's still slice for sure Jason what do you think

[01:36:20] yeah absolutely i i enjoy the nineties lens so that's part of the appeal for me and i especially when

[01:36:26] I really got into and i mean i kind of was on first switch but second watch even more the psyche

[01:36:35] what zander was going through that really gave me something to grab on to and then there was a lot

[01:36:39] of funny stuff other than that so yeah very much enjoyed it fantastic and obviously i still loved

[01:36:47] it i think it slays and really holds up very well except for the homophobia and the use of the word

[01:36:58] trim which really i find very offensive and gross and there was another thing that jason that you

[01:37:04] pointed out that didn't age well our word about what it was oh the our way the art the art the

[01:37:09] art is although it's very believable that jack would have said it yeah in that moment yeah true

[01:37:15] we don't have any news big shock because the show was on 25 years ago but we do have a bunch of

[01:37:23] feedback nice i think it's time we head over to the bronze and order some maybe chicken wings

[01:37:31] and a couple of beers and listen to what some of our listeners had to say bronze things things

[01:37:40] of bronze we'll start with becaue who just said bonus points for a young cuddlets and i couldn't

[01:37:47] agree more and then we go on with becaue who says hello all thoughts on season three episode 13

[01:37:54] is it episode 13 i thought it was like yep oh wow didn't really care for all the fragile zander

[01:38:00] moments from the gang but i suppose it was necessary to move the story along love the car he gets

[01:38:07] the jimmy ulson reference was cool love my dc comics and i found it hilarious that giles didn't

[01:38:13] get it jiles reaction is how i feel talking to the teenagers in my life sometimes i have to google

[01:38:20] what they say and there's a couple of smiley face emojis after that one um i thought i forgot about

[01:38:27] baking a cake why didn't zander just drive away while they robbed the hardware store um oh yeah

[01:38:33] he ran into willow and then he lost time to run away to drive away yeah oh yeah he really

[01:38:40] escapes but goes from one mess to another it's true i also forgot zander and faith hooked up or

[01:38:46] kicking him out after was too funny seems i forgot the majority of what happened to this episode

[01:38:53] the chase scenes through the school were great very scoofy do-ish and star wars they were really

[01:38:59] entertaining yes she goes on zander asking where's the slayer when you need one and then the camera

[01:39:06] changing to the madness happening in the library was cool yeah i like the back and forth we created

[01:39:11] the two groups a lot um also love dude running back to the window staring in and saying wow

[01:39:19] yay for zander turning the tables on jack as talking about oddly feeling full full the next day was great

[01:39:27] the episode was a nice palette cleanser after the heaviness of help this favorite quote zander

[01:39:33] al-qa'ya as his date flees this scene when Bob writes this from the set yeah that was it he liked

[01:39:40] totally didn't like her anyway he's like angel like talk to me uh giles discussing the big evil

[01:39:49] the week and mentioning the stench of death and zander replying i think it's bob i don't know what

[01:39:55] that means that's the ball is the stench of death because it was undone they just raised it

[01:40:01] when they're in the graveyard uh faith-feeling frisky you up for it zander oh i'm up

[01:40:08] that's right i forgot about that line i've just never been up with people before yeah so there

[01:40:12] there is a there is a virginity tie there probably yeah and up with people is another pop culture

[01:40:17] reference there used to be a group called up with people that like traveled around the country doing

[01:40:22] like wholesome teenage entertainment like song and dance numbers yeah oh but it does sound like

[01:40:29] he's saying i've never had a heart on with anyone else in the room before i'm pretty sure that is

[01:40:35] what he said yeah i'm like that's what he's trying to say zander after jack stops the bomb from going

[01:40:40] off good boy knowing this was a zander heavy episode i was prepared not to like it but turns out

[01:40:47] i did like it nicklaus brendan did an excellent job of portraying the many sides of zander and kudos

[01:40:52] to him for some excellent comedic acting i agree aside from the not in a gay way comment i loved all

[01:40:59] things zander it was cool to see zander find courage and to do it on his own when the gang was

[01:41:04] talking about their fight and he approaches i was afraid he'd be all braggie but instead just had a

[01:41:09] short line of walked away and he didn't even take all the bait from courty yeah i mean that was

[01:41:14] so he got his personal power there uh zander with a quiet confidence was awesome have a wonderful week

[01:41:20] weekend curr arg thanks becky and then we heard from jolene who says this is such a clever episode

[01:41:28] of buffy i feel like it's one of those episodes that really takes the mick out of itself and they do

[01:41:33] it so well there's so many funny moments in it and the flicking between the two stories where we don't

[01:41:39] see hardly any of what would usually be classed as the main storyline with the hell mouth opening

[01:41:44] and another end of the world situation and then does zander having the strangest night of his life

[01:41:48] and saving the day all alone and so i know zander isn't always perfect in buffy but this episode brings out

[01:41:54] the best in him it's great to see him doing something good that isn't because he wants validation from

[01:41:59] buffy i do have to say though that as much as i love this episode it would have been nice to have a

[01:42:04] zander centric episode that went into his home life a bit we never really get the full story there

[01:42:09] great appearance from michael cutlets as bob too i remember when he first appeared in the walking

[01:42:14] dead shouting that's bob from buffy anyway my favorite parts zander's desperation for angel to talk

[01:42:22] to him in the bronze so he can get away from car girl angel buddy friend buddy you want to sit and talk

[01:42:27] and then the i'll call you when she runs away at the graveyard jay so what you don't know is that

[01:42:31] zander detests angel so that scene is extra funny okay uh zander turning up at angels mansion looking for

[01:42:40] help while buffy and angel are in that full blown over the top argument about sacrifice and watching

[01:42:44] each other die so he just leaves to deal with it himself parkers head coming off after zander makes

[01:42:49] the huge speech before finding out how to diffuse the bomb the chase running past the library where

[01:42:55] we see a glimpse of the open hellmouth but have absolutely no idea what's actually happening i like

[01:43:00] the quiet the scubis at school the next day all talking about this huge battle we didn't see and

[01:43:06] willow saying zander should be glad he wasn't at school and the look on his face laugh cry emoji

[01:43:11] i have got to say though i really don't like the bit with faith i get that it adds to his bizarre

[01:43:16] night but i just feel that it's really unnecessary there's so many other things that could

[01:43:21] they could have done him just saving faith rather than the other way around for once is enough

[01:43:26] yeah not only i mean it felt out of the blue like i was like what why why is this here what

[01:43:31] not not in a i'm offended way but just i'm confused like i don't understand why

[01:43:37] they put that in itself so yeah i it's it could be because they wanted to show a little bit of

[01:43:46] faith's character but part of me thinks it's just because jw wanted his character like he

[01:43:54] to have sex yeah like he's all often said that zander is his stand-in so i think he just was like

[01:44:00] yeah he gets a hot girl okay so in this in this episode whereas zander's having like a trans

[01:44:07] decision in his life or a level up or growth or something that would have to be part of it maybe

[01:44:13] yeah i think so yeah i and i don't like that now the more the more we talk about it i don't like

[01:44:19] that now you i mean i think they wanted to have faith in the episode yeah more than she was but

[01:44:25] yeah i guess it's not really necessary for the story i mean it's a it's an old trope that like

[01:44:31] men having sex is like an accomplishment you know it's like a wimp

[01:44:35] oh the right of passage yeah they won something and then you know women characters

[01:44:41] get raped and that's how they get tough and have character sometimes and both of those things

[01:44:46] need to go away in our narratives but in the 90s they were full on like usual tropes

[01:44:52] so that part doesn't age super well and yeah and we see that in in firefly also there's

[01:44:58] an episode of firefly where somebody gets uh what's your name marina bit carren's character to

[01:45:07] sleep with his sons so he can become a man yeah yeah gross gross yeah um there are so many funny

[01:45:15] quotes in this one to choose from my personal favorites though jiles saying there's something

[01:45:19] different about this menace in the air i can feel it the stench of death zander yeah i think that's bob

[01:45:25] and then um zander what do you mean it's my thing willow your thing zander my thing buffy is this a penis

[01:45:31] metaphor forgot about that sort of it's a car guy yeah i mean for a lot of guys it definitely is

[01:45:41] a penis metaphor their car um and then we got a voicemail from our good friend sam

[01:45:47] hey fanny and carra it's sam the zappo definitely one of my higher ranking episodes it's very

[01:45:56] creative to have the dual storylines in there and it was very funny uh so i think that just kind

[01:46:02] of helps endure the episode to me it's almost like the writers didn't have a lot of faith in a

[01:46:08] zander centered episode so they put in an extra storyline in the background of this apocalyptic

[01:46:16] that was happening over the hell mouth because they're like just in case people are bored with

[01:46:20] zander heres or they just don't connect him but i thought it was really well done and very funny

[01:46:28] speaking of the humor in it i don't know why they had such a problem with cordelia chase's character

[01:46:35] i mean they put her in like bank teller hot couture or something like she does not dress like

[01:46:43] i school i know when i went to high school dress like this so it was just every time she showed up

[01:46:49] she had these great lines and insightful takes and i'm just like oh my god you look like you have

[01:46:54] to go pick your kids up after you finish talking to zander so it was just really funny and speaking

[01:47:01] of being way too old for high schoolers i adore michael kudlets i mean even before the walking

[01:47:09] dead he is way too old to be playing a high schooler on the show like him and o-tool supposed to be high

[01:47:16] schoolers i just kept laughing because it oh my god they look like they have a 401k they have a day

[01:47:23] job they're not reading like like they're gonna tell me about the stock market any second now

[01:47:31] i could not keep a straight face i'm like there's no way they're high schoolers but i mean it was

[01:47:36] the actors are amazing so i was suspended my my disfulief um yeah i guess i felt a little bad for zander

[01:47:44] i guess in this episode between like the weird sexuality with o-tool and the knife that was a

[01:47:51] little weird and then you know faith doing them a solid and then kicking him out i wouldn't wish

[01:47:58] that on anyone the first time that they had sex to be fair this is how zander treats women

[01:48:06] as sexual objects to be used and discarded so i don't feel that bad for him and faith tried to

[01:48:12] boost as you go by saying that was great i have to go shower i'm like faith that is a very loving

[01:48:17] white lie because there's no way that was good looking forward to the episode i can't wait to hear what

[01:48:23] you guys have to say thanks sam one thing i love about sam's feedback is that she always gives examples

[01:48:31] of what she means yeah how she's like she looks like she has a 401k or she has to pick up a

[01:48:36] hand it's so colorful and fun um yeah we often remarked on cordial youth wardrobe that she i think

[01:48:43] she looks like a paralegal like she's works on a law firm she's always sort of corporate business

[01:48:48] casual dressed um she looks and dresses and kind of acts like an ex-girlfriend of mine

[01:48:55] oh really that's a great part of my reaction to her

[01:49:02] all right that is the end of the main section of the podcast stay tuned for the watchers

[01:49:07] diaries if you want to hear this oilery discussion if you want to join in on the conversation

[01:49:12] you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and the show notes for each episode

[01:49:18] and there's a search uh thing on there so you can search and see if we've covered anything

[01:49:23] it's a good good resource yeah also at podcastica.com you'll find links to our social media pages

[01:49:30] and all of our other shows and there are so many podcastica shows to enjoy we talked a little bit

[01:49:36] earlier about the cast of us that is covering the current walking dead spin-off the ones who live

[01:49:42] that's been fantastic i'm really enjoying listening to that when i've been mentioning recently

[01:49:48] because someone said they just discovered that we covered the handmade's tail and

[01:49:53] i'm like oh i'm so glad you found that because we love doing that podcast me and

[01:49:59] dapney and wendy and um i was a little nervous to podcast about that show because on the man but

[01:50:05] it's been great and uh the showrunner started tweeting out that he liked the podcast so we had

[01:50:13] him on for some interviews it's just been a really good experience so if you're into that show

[01:50:18] maybe check out the podcast yeah the podcast really helps with the show like handmade's tail which is

[01:50:24] so heavy and serious and deals with so many intense emotional issues that hearing you guys

[01:50:32] process it out loud and analyze it really helps me with each episode and putting it in a place in

[01:50:39] my brain as opposed to in my heart because that show can really hurt it's so disturbing and also the

[01:50:44] feedback is my favorite you know the people write them with their reactions and stories and everything

[01:50:52] that's really great. Steve what have you been listening to lately?

[01:50:56] um gosh just coming back from my big trip um the revisited podcast with uh bin and christian

[01:51:03] covering Ted Lasso getting caught up on on that podcast has been great um they're they're

[01:51:09] covering so they just started season three of that show so it's uh it's it's been good to listen to

[01:51:14] that and of course the cast of us uh getting caught up with the Rick and the show show um just yeah

[01:51:20] that's that's about it right now um and still slaying of course thank you i got all caught up on your

[01:51:26] podcast just earlier today uh and i haven't been able to go back to my other the rewatcher podcast

[01:51:33] this is the other buffy podcast but soon my girl get back and i think i said this last when we did

[01:51:39] hethers but anytime anyone mentions still slaying they're just like they're so good so i've heard that

[01:51:46] for multiple people you guys are great thank you we love doing it we really do

[01:51:52] and if you like what we're doing give us a five star rating leave a review or like follow

[01:51:58] subscribe and you know all the things and next time we will be covering season three episode 14

[01:52:06] bad girls and i'm excited about that thanks everybody and yeah great knife although i think

[01:52:15] it may technically be a uh sword she's called cady you gave it a girl's name how very serial killer view

[01:52:22] so all right that's the end of a non spoiler section if you want to avoid spoilers you should stop

[01:52:29] listening right now now all right onto the watchers diaries where we talk about spoilery stuff and

[01:52:42] spoilery thanks it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries

[01:52:46] sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private also jiles keeps

[01:52:54] someone is office in his personal finals most importantly it would be wrong so we can talk now about

[01:53:05] what's gonna happen in the future with zander and faith

[01:53:11] yeah they come back to this moment a few times in the series even in season four i think there's

[01:53:18] a when there's an episode when faith comes back from her her coma where zander makes some comment

[01:53:25] to jiles about him and faith having a thing and because i just i just rewatched those episodes

[01:53:32] from season four so this is gonna come back up again this moment that they have together but it's

[01:53:37] it's the really the tragic one is in is it the next episode where they're talking where willow

[01:53:45] buffy and jiles are talking about zander like every time i think it is bad girls it's calm

[01:53:51] my body but yeah okay you're like yeah because i just remember there's that moment where where

[01:53:56] puffy notices that every time she says faith names zander's eye twitches and later when they figure

[01:54:02] when they figure that out like buffy and jiles come to realization they look at willow and willows

[01:54:06] like yeah i figured it out like several minutes ago before you guys wanted to figure out that they had

[01:54:11] sex and then we see her break down in the stacks just crying yeah it's a sad moment because even though

[01:54:19] she has moved on from her you know unrequited love for zander the idea that he had sex with someone

[01:54:26] else it still hurts her it's just it's like the last piece of that crush that gets come off there

[01:54:37] and man he didn't even i mean she really initiated it but i guess he could have just said no

[01:54:48] yeah he has um earlier in the in the season when they first meet faith he definitely is attracted to her

[01:54:56] and he makes a lot of comments to that effect and uh it sparked some jealousy from cordelia

[01:55:02] she's like what is it with you and slayers the thing is that he's into every hot girl that comes on

[01:55:07] the show yeah when zam also said that's how he treats women like i didn't know that that's

[01:55:12] yeah that's interesting new information yeah yeah he's been he's very

[01:55:18] and i just keep going back to the fact that i'm not trying to defend him here yeah he's a teenage

[01:55:23] boy he was a teenage he's a teenage boy in the 90s i was a teenage boy in the 80s and i've been

[01:55:30] sexualized every woman that i saw but there was definitely some moments of a hot woman barely looked

[01:55:37] at me that there would be some interest so i'm yeah i can't i can't begrudge him being attracted to

[01:55:46] and wanting attention from the women on the show my issue comes when he acts possessive of them

[01:55:54] and and gets like angry that they have the nerve to like be interested in some other guy

[01:56:01] like and the way that he gets mixed up with with willow and ends up cheating on cordelia i think

[01:56:07] is purely because he's like no she's my backup girlfriend and now she's with us and i want to

[01:56:13] you know now i'm attracted to her because she's with someone else it's it's petty bullshit yeah

[01:56:19] yeah and he's and sometimes he says really gross things to buffy and it's like come on

[01:56:27] say under she's your friend like don't like i understand she's beautiful we all get it but like

[01:56:32] do um in this episode he doesn't do any of that stuff he's not gross in this episode at all and

[01:56:39] it's a relief it's like uh finally we can like it it's good and even though you know he grows

[01:56:44] he has an arc in the series um over the next you know five seasons right four or five seasons because

[01:56:53] eight season eight um he's he's gonna have some growth but he still falls back every now and then

[01:56:59] on that that kind of match life yeah yeah yeah every every now and then he never gets over to

[01:57:08] his obsession with buffy really no not even when he's with anya later you know later seasons

[01:57:14] he's gonna be with with anya um and even when he's with her he's not really with her it's a lot of

[01:57:20] times she initiates the sex or he yeah so it's it's and there's the you were talking about the

[01:57:27] replacement is that the one where he splits yeah in half and there's two of him and yeah that's

[01:57:32] that's that there's a moment at the end of that where anya kind of treats him that way because

[01:57:36] he's like do we really have to put them together could we have a you know it sounds like she wants

[01:57:40] to have a three way with the oh sounds like the two's pretty excited about it she's like I

[01:57:45] could have sex with the both of them and then we could put him back together in the morning

[01:57:48] then put him back together yeah yeah that's that's what's in again it's it's alluded to later

[01:57:57] but we already talked about the virginity things yeah yeah um trying to think what else what else

[01:58:01] spoilery is uh i thought it was interesting that that um Jason was describing Willow and there's

[01:58:09] nothing in this episode to let you know that willow has a dark side and we've seen some

[01:58:16] inquinges of it and um she's kind of power hungry and the she pursues the witchcraft

[01:58:24] in in a way because she's always been this like picked on nerd and it's a way for her to

[01:58:31] to feel empowered but it doesn't always have good consequences that's interesting

[01:58:39] she's a really fun villain when she starts to get bad and uh oh that's the other thing is that's

[01:58:44] spoil you know it's it's not until season five that we get that moment when we really

[01:58:50] find out that zander is an integral member of the team you know there's this whole

[01:58:54] it's one of my favorite speeches yeah one of my favorite episodes because that

[01:59:01] moment at the end when she's talking to quitt and travers and quittins like well the boy he doesn't

[01:59:06] have any uh any superpowers and she's like the boy has had more field time than all of you put together

[01:59:13] and he's part of the unit yeah and you know up in the rafters willow is like that's

[01:59:19] frilly speak or you know yeah and zander's like part of the game yeah he feels very proud and

[01:59:25] you know even though we've seen it before like when he he's going to be an integral member of the

[01:59:31] team when they attack when at the end of this season yeah and then at the end of season five

[01:59:37] he's gonna have another moment where he's you know the glorified brick layer picks up a spare and he's

[01:59:41] he knocks out the god glory the demigod glory so it's uh he's gonna have his moments to shine

[01:59:48] to see that he is a member of the team he does have some uh some skills and then he has some wisdom

[01:59:54] that he's gained from having this role as well in in season seven he has that amazing conversation

[01:59:59] with dawn about not being special and how it feels to not be special when you're around the slayer

[02:00:06] and a witch and everything all the time and and you realize that he has been thinking about it

[02:00:12] all this time and and sort of learning from that and growing from it it's a it's a pretty cool moment

[02:00:18] but yeah that's four seasons for him I look forward to seeing yeah look I look forward to seeing

[02:00:22] because there's there's some things that I forget because I haven't watched the later seasons as

[02:00:26] many times as the earlier it's kind of like we talked about this about lost if you if you if you

[02:00:32] watched lost one of the things that that I did every see every time a new season came out I went

[02:00:37] back and watched the previous seasons before the new season came out so at the time I've got to

[02:00:42] season yeah but it's time I got to season five of lost I've seen like season one like you know six

[02:00:48] times and I hated the ending so after that I never watched lost again wow so I've never I've

[02:00:56] never even doubt my viewing or anything I just was like nope I highly recommend if you're

[02:01:01] willing to do it I highly recommend going back to the beginning of the revisited podcast where they

[02:01:07] covered lost yeah one of these days they did they turned me around on the finale of that

[02:01:13] that's that's totally but they turned me around on the I was on there absolutely yeah

[02:01:20] yeah they they can they turn me around because I was very disappointed with the ending as well

[02:01:27] but yeah this shows this show has a really good end I'd say what I think you can just listen to that

[02:01:31] episode yeah you don't want to spoil it oh wait we're in spoilers yeah this is Buffy spoilers

[02:01:38] not last this is Buffy spoilers are there any other big things that we should talk about I don't

[02:01:43] think so just like we talked about the fact that this is this is another apocalypse that it's

[02:01:48] gonna get mint this this apocalypse is going to get mentioned in the future as being a prior

[02:01:53] apocalypse yeah that's a Riley line I think I suddenly need to know the apocalypse yeah they

[02:01:59] they talk about the hellmouth they're gonna we're gonna have other moments when the hellmouth

[02:02:03] opens and they have to go back to the school so it's it's interesting that that's where the hellmouth

[02:02:09] is is under the library yeah opening to the hellmouth so high school is built on a hellmouth is

[02:02:13] is a fun metaphor for what it feels like to go to high school because you're just constantly

[02:02:18] absorbing negative energy from everything all the time I I'm trying to think if there's anything

[02:02:24] else off the top my head that we've there's really I mean it's it's sets up a few things but we've

[02:02:32] talked about what it sets up so yeah yeah all right well then that's the complete end of our show

[02:02:38] thank you everybody for listening and until next time I'm Kenny I'm Jason and I'm Steve

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