29: “Consequences” (BTVS S3E15)

[00:00:00] Fave, you're hurting people. You're hurting yourself. That's not it. That's not what bothers

[00:00:10] you so much. What bugs you is you know I'm right. You know when you're good. We don't

[00:00:13] need the law. We are the law. No. Yes. You know exactly what I'm about because you have

[00:00:19] it in you too. No, Faith, you're sick. I've seen it be. You've got the lust. And I'm

[00:00:22] not just talking about screwing vampires. Don't you dare bring him into this. It

[00:00:26] was good, wasn't it? Sex. The danger. But a party we even dug in when he let's psycho.

[00:00:31] No. See you need me to tow the line because you're afraid you'll go over it, aren't you,

[00:00:36] B? You can't handle watching me live in my own way, having to blast because it tempts

[00:00:40] you. You know it could be you. There's my girl. No. I'm not gonna do this. Why not?

[00:00:48] Feels good. Blood rising.

[00:01:19] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny. And I'm

[00:01:26] Kirk. And I'm Kara. This episode we're going to be discussing season three

[00:01:32] episode 15 Consequences directed by Michael Gershman and written by Marty Noxon.

[00:01:38] The original air date on this one was February 16th of 1999. There were some

[00:01:45] alternative titles in other languages for this episode, including Above the Laws in French,

[00:01:52] Made to Kill in Italian and the consequences of that in Japanese. I kind of like the

[00:01:58] consequences of that. Yeah. And the Italian ones always so much more Germanic.

[00:02:04] I'm confused. What are the language? So in French they called it something different?

[00:02:09] Yeah. When the episode was related to French, the titles are a little different.

[00:02:15] Usually the Polish one gives us a chuckle, but this time I'm really excited.

[00:02:19] This time it just, yeah. The consequences of that.

[00:02:21] Everything just translated to consequences for the most part. These were the only three

[00:02:26] that were part of any different. Above the Laws. That's interesting.

[00:02:32] You've just heard the voice of Kirk who is our guest for this episode. Welcome,

[00:02:37] Kirk. Just still slaying. Hello, hello. Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:02:41] Great to be here with you guys. If you are a podcastica listener,

[00:02:45] you've probably heard Kirk before on some of our Marvel related podcasts.

[00:02:50] He was one of the hosts for the What If podcast and the Echo podcast. I worked

[00:02:57] with him on that one. And he also guested. Oh, and he did Lokiverse. I was not on that

[00:03:04] one. He also guested with Greg and me on She-Hulk and was a lot of fun. Kirk is a fabulous artist

[00:03:12] and he does a lot of tribute art and things in the science fiction and comic book universe.

[00:03:20] And I recently commissioned a piece from him for our very own Cara for her birthday. We'll put it

[00:03:27] up on Instagram. It's pretty awesome. Sexy dials. You know it's good when I

[00:03:32] instantly started giggling when I saw it. Yeah, that is awesome. That works. I love when people laugh

[00:03:39] at my work. That's the intended effect, right? I'm teasing. We'll include Kirk's information

[00:03:49] in the show notes. It's studiok.com if you want to see his work and we'll put some pieces on

[00:03:55] our Instagram so you can take a look at it. But Kirk, why don't you tell us a little bit

[00:04:00] about your history with Buffy. Did you watch it when it first came out? Oh yeah, I mean well first of

[00:04:06] all thanks again for having me on and I have been a Buffy fanatic since season one. It's just

[00:04:15] it was such a unique... It was kind of the beginning of a certain kind of storytelling in TV

[00:04:26] that I just love, which is this more kind of full season arc stories that evolve over time with

[00:04:37] as opposed to episodic, you know, the villain of the week kind of thing. And similarly at that time

[00:04:46] Babylon 5, I don't know if any of you were into sci-fi but Babylon 5 was also around that time

[00:04:52] and they were also doing that kind of thing. And so it's a very comic book kind of storytelling style.

[00:05:00] You've got a new villain or conflict going on each issue but there's always lots of character

[00:05:08] development and bigger arc, usually in a six or a 12-issue run of that you're learning about

[00:05:17] each book. And so I just naturally took to that storytelling style. Also, you know, the

[00:05:25] I think the friend group, the connection with the tight friends relationships and how they

[00:05:32] treated that in Buffy was very different than most TV at that time and I think was very

[00:05:41] I'm not addicting but enjoyable to watch. You know what I mean?

[00:05:47] Yeah, the sort of found family thing.

[00:05:49] Yeah and the side characters that don't just play a side role, you know, they often are

[00:05:56] quintessential to an episode or they're fleshed out. The relationships between everybody,

[00:06:01] it's definitely Buffy's show but it's really Buffy and her family.

[00:06:06] Yeah so yeah and I was really drawn to that. Plus, you know, vampires and action and

[00:06:14] and the writing style was very young and youthful and fresh and funny and at the same time the

[00:06:23] action in the fight scenes were unique at that time. They really spent time getting them

[00:06:29] to look good and feel right as opposed to being just cow, bam, smash. You know, it was

[00:06:35] it really felt like they were brawling on the street and those are all things that I was

[00:06:40] really drawn to. So yeah, I've been a Buffy fan since day one. In fact, I got a bit obsessive.

[00:06:47] I you know would illustrate Buffy stuff. I shared with you guys that I did a tribute

[00:06:54] piece of what would happen if Buffy teamed up with Blade and because at that time Blade was a

[00:07:01] big Marvel film that came out roughly around that time and when I first started watching that.

[00:07:07] And I just, you know, I think I just was really drawn to the sci-fi elements as well as the

[00:07:14] horror elements and just really enjoyed it. So I loved it so much. In fact, I introduced

[00:07:20] it to my kids when they got old enough and of course they loved it. So went through it all again

[00:07:25] and I had already watched every season, but you know, all the shows Angel many times. So but then

[00:07:32] we went through it all again and it's one of the few series that I've been able to do that with

[00:07:37] and really enjoy it each viewing. You know, it's unique in that way. There's no real bad

[00:07:45] episodes and it's just as fun to watch it from beginning to end every couple of years. I don't

[00:07:53] know of any other series that I feel that way about. That's great that you could share it with your

[00:07:58] kids. I have been trying to get my niece and nephew to watch it for years and they keep saying like,

[00:08:07] oh yeah, yeah, we'll get to it, Artie Penny. Like we'll get there and I'm like, oh I can't.

[00:08:12] I think that it is finally, it lasted longer than most series in terms of aging, but I think it's

[00:08:19] finally starting to feel a little bit dated. Especially those. In fact, I can't really watch

[00:08:25] season one anymore. Yeah, season one does not hold up. No, I mean it was weak to begin with,

[00:08:31] but now it really feels separated from life experience. Yeah, but yeah, no we enjoyed

[00:08:40] it as a family a lot. In fact, I shared with you guys that we did this

[00:08:48] project once where we loved the book that Giles carries around, the vampire,

[00:08:54] I don't know how to pronounce it, Vampira or something. Well, how does Andrew say it? Vampire.

[00:09:00] And so we went out and bought books from old books at old bookstores and brought them home

[00:09:08] and then day-coupage and did all this foam cut out stuff and painted them, found YouTube videos

[00:09:14] on how to create that book. And so we just made craft projects out of it and did stuff all

[00:09:19] sort of stuff to tie into the show. Yeah, they loved it. We have pictures of this book that

[00:09:24] Kirk made with his kids. We'll put that on the Instagram as well. It's really cool and

[00:09:28] looks exactly like the one on TV. It's amazing. I can see Andrew in front of the fireplace

[00:09:35] and his little robe sipping. What if he's drinking like Scotch or Whiskey or something?

[00:09:40] I'm sure Andrew wasn't actually drinking Scotch in that scene. I think there may have

[00:09:44] actually been a joke about it. Yeah, I can't see Andrew being a Scotch guy.

[00:09:51] He could try and it would not work out. Didn't he use a pipe sometimes?

[00:09:56] I don't think he lit the pipe. I think he just chewed it up. Yeah, and had it fully prop.

[00:10:01] Well, let's go back to 1999 and remember what was going on in the country at that time.

[00:10:09] Sound effects and everything. Yeah, we do. This is top notch.

[00:10:13] Yeah, we're fancy over here. So first up, the number one song in the United States

[00:10:20] is Still Angel of Mine by Monica. And now the number one song in the UK is Fly Away

[00:10:27] by Lenny Kravitz. And I remember that song being on repeat during that time for sure.

[00:10:36] Lenny Kravitz is still a hot commodity. Yeah, so good for him.

[00:10:42] I didn't remember Angel of Mine, so I played it when I got the agenda and I was like,

[00:10:47] I still don't remember this song. I think because at that time in my life, I was so

[00:10:54] busy with law school that I just didn't have time for any pop culture except for the very few

[00:11:01] select things that I made time for. So it was like, if it wasn't Buffy or Charmed or Batman Beyond,

[00:11:09] I didn't watch it on TV. And if it you know, and if it wasn't music I already had on CD,

[00:11:15] I didn't hear it. Like I was just really, really, they need to make a Batman Beyond movie.

[00:11:20] Oh, yeah. I really do. Oh, yeah. I really want that so much.

[00:11:24] You should bring Christian Bale back as an old, old, old Bruce Wayne to play that role.

[00:11:28] That would be very interesting. Timothy Chalamet, I'm sure, would get cast as

[00:11:34] Charmed as this. Oh, yes. Yeah. I'd be okay with that. I'd be fine with it.

[00:11:37] He'd stay. Yep. So in the US box office, number one was Saving Private Ryan. Fantastic

[00:11:47] film. Still a good rewatch. Two, Patch Adams and three, Prince of Egypt. Yeah. Don't remember the other

[00:11:56] two too well. Patch Adams is not good. I don't remember very much about that movie except him

[00:12:03] wearing a clown nose at one point. Yeah, that was on all posters. Yeah, that's saving Saving

[00:12:10] Private Ryan was an amazing film. Yeah, that was a dominant force at the box office that year.

[00:12:18] What was Prince of Egypt? It's an animated movie about Moses.

[00:12:24] I don't remember if it was a Disney one. I don't, I remember, I just remember churches

[00:12:31] being in Texas. I remember churches being all thrilled that something about

[00:12:37] the Moses was out. Yeah. All right. On the day that the episode aired, February 16th,

[00:12:43] there was an annual, annual solar eclipse, although it was largely not visible in the US,

[00:12:50] unlike the one we just had. Yeah, no problem. Kurdish rebels took over Greek and Kenyan embassies

[00:12:55] across Europe and held hostages after the two countries helped Turkey arrest

[00:13:00] one of their rebel leaders, Abdullah Okolan. OJ Simpson's 1968 Heisman trophy is sold for

[00:13:07] $230,000 to help settle a $33.5 million civil judgment against Simpson for the

[00:13:14] deaths of his ex-wife Nicole Brown and her friend Ron Goldman. Oh, OJ. And OJ just passed away this week.

[00:13:23] Oh no. And nobody really mourned that. It was, the news was always like, and here's a piece of news.

[00:13:30] Like nobody. My favorite was Tealings. I remember getting up and putting

[00:13:36] up and having breakfast and looking at TikTok. And for some reason all my TikToks were the Bronco

[00:13:42] Chase. And I'm like, what? Oh my gosh. Why is all of a sudden on?

[00:13:49] Although that was in April, I'm pretty sure. So that's kind of interesting. It all comes back

[00:13:56] around. Let's see. During this week that the episode aired, on February 20th, 1999,

[00:14:02] the Toronto Maple Leafs play their first NHL home game at Air Canada Center.

[00:14:09] I had no real, I did not realize that. On February 21st, 1999, Lahore Declaration was signed

[00:14:18] between India's Atal Bahari Vajpayee and Pakistan's Nawaz Sharif on use of nuclear weapons. Wow.

[00:14:29] That is significant because not too long before this, and we talked about this on the podcast,

[00:14:36] there had been some nuclear weapons testing going on and the tensions between those two

[00:14:41] countries were really on the rise. So yeah. And that flared, that still flares up all the time.

[00:14:47] Yeah. Oh yeah. Thank you England for the partition that created that conflict.

[00:14:52] All right. That's a Ms. Marvel reference, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I love Ms. Marvel.

[00:15:00] Very undervalued show. I thought it was really brilliant. All right. Yeah, it's good.

[00:15:04] Let's get into the discussion and since Kirk is our guest, he gets to start us off.

[00:15:11] Where would you like to go first, Kirk? Well, you know, faith has always been one of my

[00:15:17] favorite Buffy characters. It's why, you know, when you gave me an options of episodes, I chose

[00:15:24] this one because I really, I always was drawn to that character. I think because she's a version

[00:15:31] of Buffy that's, you know, it was more the wild cut loose, no sense of responsibility kind of

[00:15:37] aspect of her. It's kind of like what if, you know, Buffy wasn't as principal to person,

[00:15:42] you know, so it's kind of a chance to see it. But then more than that, she's very complex.

[00:15:48] You know, she really wants to be loved and cared about and because of that,

[00:15:54] you know, I think she carries this chip on her shoulder from her hard knock life. And

[00:16:01] you know, she envies Buffy and her friends. I think all of that makes her a very sad

[00:16:07] and tragic character as well. And to me, that's a rich character. This episode, you know, just

[00:16:15] really solidifies that for me. And this is where it's kind of like her brokenness really comes through.

[00:16:21] And you know, so for me, she's just a really powerful presence on the screen. I think also

[00:16:29] Eliza Dushka did a fantastic job with her. She threads that needle of, you know, being

[00:16:36] torn inside, but you know, having a heart exterior and just to really enjoy it. And then I'll tie into

[00:16:43] that as well. The whole faith angel dynamic is always was always also one of my favorite

[00:16:51] relationships because, you know, especially on the Buffy spin off there, the angel show.

[00:16:57] I mean, his need to help her find redemption was so tied up in his own struggle to deal with

[00:17:03] his guilt and redemption issues. It just made for great TV, you know, the fact that he could kind of

[00:17:09] see through all of her bravado and cut right to the heart of the matter with her and really cared

[00:17:17] and really wanted to help her. And of course we don't get that we get a little bit of that we

[00:17:23] get the start of that in this episode, which is beautiful. But you really start to understand

[00:17:29] her better when you realize that he is really the only one that can kind of relate to who,

[00:17:35] what her life has been. So I just thought that's my stand out for this.

[00:17:40] Yeah, I love the faith and angel relationship. And, you know, I don't want to get into too many

[00:17:47] spoilers. And we could talk about that at the end in the spoiler section. But I, there is a

[00:17:53] lot of payoff to it as the show goes on, we're going to get to see more of faith and angel

[00:17:58] interacting. And I like that it gives a depth and a purpose to Angel that he didn't have before.

[00:18:06] Because before his entire plot was about being in love with Buffy, it's funny because usually

[00:18:12] only women characters get a plot that's entirely about who they are in love with.

[00:18:16] Centered on, yeah. It made it made Angel a little bit one note at times. Yeah,

[00:18:24] you know, when he turns evil in season two, there's tons of complexity and it's really interesting.

[00:18:29] But in this season three up until this point, he sort of deals with the Scooby gang not trusting him

[00:18:35] and coming back to town. And then you're sort of done. And then adding in this relationship

[00:18:41] with faith adds layers to him as well as just diving deeper and deeper into what makes

[00:18:49] faith so interesting. And I love it. Something that just, it works so well. And it works very

[00:18:59] well to set up, you know, we all know that there's Angel gets a spin off. But this particular dynamic,

[00:19:07] I think is what really makes that spin off work is him kind of figuring out his purpose and

[00:19:13] what he can do to help people. And it's just so funny to watching Angel deal with faith and then

[00:19:20] seeing Xander come in and relate to her, and he gets this, you know, nihilistic response,

[00:19:29] essentially from faith and it scares him shitless basically. But it's just Angel is on par with

[00:19:39] faith. Angel can handle her both like the physicality that comes along with trying to deal with and

[00:19:47] wrangle faith and her, you know, her morbidity and nihilistic comments like it doesn't sway him,

[00:19:55] it doesn't make him balk in the slightest. Yeah, he's seen it all. So well, he has,

[00:20:01] he has his dark side. Yeah, he knows where she's at. You know what I mean? He's been

[00:20:09] there. Whereas none of the other scooby gang, including Buffy can relate to that and therefore

[00:20:16] it's hard for them to connect with her or have compassion for her in the way that needs to be

[00:20:21] done. You know, they can't see past the pain that she's inflicting and you know he can. And

[00:20:29] she can respect him because she knows about his dark past whereas whenever Buffy says to her like,

[00:20:36] no, we can help you. She's like, you don't even get it. But yeah, no, that's a great point.

[00:20:40] That's Angel. She respects him in a way she can't really respect the others. Yeah,

[00:20:46] because like what Buffy thought she may have killed a man for what maybe in a few hours. Yeah,

[00:20:53] with Ted and you know, that was hard for Buffy. But at the same time, Buffy had her mother there

[00:20:59] who supported her and Giles and a support system in place that she felt safe going to. Whereas faith

[00:21:06] has already we've seen her play into, you know, she already feels isolated. She felt excluded

[00:21:13] and she's been going down that path more and more as the season progresses. And Angel is the only

[00:21:20] person that could have any hope of actually reaching her where she's at at this point.

[00:21:24] It's very metaphoric almost for drug addiction, alcohol addiction and that you know, he is kind

[00:21:32] of becomes with this episode, he starts to become her sponsor. You know, and in that way it's beautiful.

[00:21:39] And to your point what you agree she has can start to connect with him because she knows

[00:21:45] he really does understand what she's going through. Whereas to your point, the others don't.

[00:21:52] Yeah, she's like you've never killed anyone. You don't, you know, you didn't have a difficult life.

[00:21:57] You don't know what evil is like you just don't get me. Well and having that power,

[00:22:02] how much like strength and power she has like she can cause a lot of harm. And we see that

[00:22:09] in this episode a rogue slayer is something that's incredibly dangerous. And Angel is the

[00:22:15] same way he has a lot that he needs to control and not just you know, being a vampire and having

[00:22:23] strength but even being around Buffy. And he's like yeah, he has a lot of experience keeping

[00:22:31] himself in check and and he can give that wisdom to faith. I have a plot question. I'm hoping

[00:22:39] you guys might have an opinion on so when Angel shows up at Faith's hotel room and knocks her out

[00:22:46] and takes her back to the mansion, do you think Buffy sent him or that he thought of that on

[00:22:53] his own because we see him earlier like skulking around like he you know he goes to the murder

[00:22:59] scene and he looks at the murder scene and then he like follows the detective around and then

[00:23:04] he's outside Faith's hotel room when the detective leaves you know he's got a thoughtful look on his

[00:23:09] face. So is he following faith and sees what's going down with Xander and jumps in or has Buffy

[00:23:16] decided after that conversation with the gang about who do you think could reach faith? Did

[00:23:21] she go to Angel and say can you try to reach faith? I always assumed he was being lurky

[00:23:30] Angel and following her knowing that she was a potential problem because even though you know

[00:23:36] Buffy still has some weird tension and issues about faith and Angel, you know if they get worse but

[00:23:46] that's for later. But I just do not see Buffy going to Angel in that moment.

[00:23:56] But that's how I'm there at the mansion when he comes back with faith and it seems to be

[00:24:03] you know collaborating with him. My impression when I watched it was that

[00:24:10] he was kind of working on his own having picked up on what was going on and kind of realizing

[00:24:17] what was going to need to be done even though the others weren't clear about what needed to

[00:24:22] be done. But I think that and then I assumed he just immediately reached out to Buffy and to bring

[00:24:30] her in but I think it's an interesting question because it could very well have been. I don't know

[00:24:39] if it was done vaguely on purpose but it is a good question because I could see her also

[00:24:45] reaching out to him they have a connection that is unique because of their love for each other.

[00:24:52] They have reached out to him and said hey I really need help on this situation and he's like

[00:24:56] I got you covered you know. Yeah and I don't know if he if she specifically maybe directed him or if

[00:25:04] they had a vague conversation about what may need to happen or if you know he knocked her out.

[00:25:11] And then paged Buffy or then I think he paged. That's right, peeped her.

[00:25:18] Yeah. The only thing is that we were seeing him following her from the beginning of the episode

[00:25:27] so in that sense and it was clear Buffy didn't know what to do or where to go or who to talk to

[00:25:32] or how to approach this till after she had met and talked with Giles and everything else. So

[00:25:38] that leads me to think that maybe they you know came together before he went and got her but

[00:25:45] he had already been on a mission I think. Yeah we saw last episode you know when he runs into

[00:25:51] Buffy and she has the blood on her hands and and she's like don't worry about it that he was he

[00:25:56] clocked it and he was like that is something to worry about I gotta follow up on that. And then

[00:26:02] it comes back and when he's visiting the crime scene yeah and he's like oh that's the same blood

[00:26:07] right and then he's maybe wondering if he could if the smell I'm sure yeah you know

[00:26:14] I feel like this is slightly not really spoilery but I think at some point in Angel we learn that

[00:26:21] the ability to tell where blood came from like this blood is from that person is a vampire trait

[00:26:27] like I think he could tell that the blood on Buffy's hands was from a human and that it was

[00:26:32] not her blood and then when he went to the crime scene he's like yep match that's the

[00:26:37] blood I smelled before yeah if Oz can smell Willow's fear I feel like the vampire senses of blood should

[00:26:46] be that heightened too. Yeah that checks out creepy creepy ability but it kind of makes for a good vampire

[00:26:54] detective to have you know built-in forensic abilities when you're when you're investigating

[00:27:02] you know bloody crime they should have played that up more in his spinoff yeah like more smelling blood

[00:27:08] and following yeah yeah it's like a bloodhound a bloodhound I knew I knew one of us is gonna go there

[00:27:21] so let's talk about Faith's trauma some more and you know last time we had Sam with us who's a

[00:27:28] psychologist and we talked about about trauma and it continues in this episode that we get to see the

[00:27:37] results of the trauma the the downward spiral that Faith is in right she starts off at the end

[00:27:44] of last episode she's like I don't care and then as we move through this episode her approach

[00:27:51] to the murder changes from I don't care to you know it's it's something that happens and it's fine

[00:27:59] and it's not that big of a deal and then there's this bargaining that she goes through where she's

[00:28:03] like you know we've saved thousands of people so we're in the plus column it balances out and

[00:28:09] then she gets this we're better than other people the rules shouldn't apply to us

[00:28:14] and each confrontation she has with Buffy reveals just another level of her denial and her attempts to

[00:28:26] to not care even though you can see the cracks that she does care there's a vulnerability there

[00:28:32] there's a sadness there and she just covers it with this bravado and this you know and and like

[00:28:38] dramatic makeup and sexuality like all that stuff is part of her mask that she's using to try to

[00:28:46] you know just not feel bad about what happened yeah and I think when she when she goes around behind

[00:28:53] Buffy to Giles it's a bit of a scene or insight into that struggle that she's going on because

[00:29:02] it if she didn't really care then you know she doesn't care what happens but she does care

[00:29:07] she doesn't want to you know lose her connection with these people she also doesn't want to go

[00:29:14] to jail she's you know starting to have anxieties and fears and because she's got some guilt and she

[00:29:23] recognizes there's part of her that recognizes this was this was a bad thing yeah and she

[00:29:28] threatened Buffy with a sort of if I go down you're going down with me argument

[00:29:33] at one point she's like you were there too you were just as much a part of it as I was

[00:29:40] which is kind of true I mean the scene where the murder actually happens is entirely understandable

[00:29:46] there's vampires jumping out at them from different sides and they're in a rhythm

[00:29:50] of taking them down and then this human pops up in the place where they expect a vampire it's

[00:29:57] it's a very understandable accident Buffy clocks him and says faith no as faith goes in

[00:30:06] so it makes me it's still like obviously when your adrenaline is high you're in the middle of

[00:30:13] you know you're hyper aware tactically speaking about you know what's going on around you

[00:30:19] it makes sense why she would still go ahead and stab him the momentum was with it the afterwards

[00:30:27] kind of a problem like faith going back in hiding and disposing of the body

[00:30:32] poorly not great yeah and just people and terrible and we've also seen several times he wasn't

[00:30:41] he also didn't have the brow and the teeth he wasn't in vampire mode yeah so I would think that

[00:30:47] you'd be trained as a as a slayer to you know be observant of that kind of

[00:30:54] yeah physical you know cue but we've seen faith in fights that she is impulsive and yeah and that she

[00:31:04] once she starts like there's been several scenes when she's in a fight where she just starts pummeling

[00:31:09] on someone and is not paying attention to the world around her like Buffy will be like hell

[00:31:14] but I'm trapped over here and faith is just like I'm punching someone and it's fun yeah she's

[00:31:20] not now be she's not aware she loses herself in the fighting which I think is well they made it so

[00:31:27] there was a question of whether faith was actually going to come to her aid with um with trick with

[00:31:32] trick yeah yeah uh that was a decision because faith was done fighting the other vampires and

[00:31:40] she actually had a moment to think about what she was going to do at that moment because

[00:31:44] trick was the only one left but those are the things that give you that complexity yeah

[00:31:49] that's that's where she's complicated because there really is a kernel in there of goodness there is

[00:31:56] a true slayer inside there um but it doesn't come out often and that that was a moment where it came

[00:32:03] out yeah I thought and she's hiding it and this is where the addiction metaphor comes in as well

[00:32:10] because when she's I think she's addicted to fighting to the violence and when she's in the

[00:32:16] middle of a fight she loses herself in it and stops having the ability to think rationally whereas

[00:32:22] Buffy holds on to that at all times that's why Buffy clocked that that was a human and faith

[00:32:27] didn't even hear her say stop because faith is just she's in her zone it's like she's drunk

[00:32:33] and she's just going for it and and she's been able to sort of power her way through

[00:32:41] her slayer life for the short amount of time that she's been a slayer she's only been a slayer

[00:32:45] for you know what like four or five months or something and and um

[00:32:53] up till now she's just gotten lucky that she hasn't hurt somebody right yeah really truly

[00:33:01] and it was bound to happen eventually with the way that she fights the way she approaches

[00:33:05] fights that she just like jumps in and starts wailing away and and doesn't ever take time to

[00:33:11] survey the scene she's not a big recon person she's not a strategy person she doesn't want to plan

[00:33:16] she's supposed to jump in and start beating people up faith would be a terrible cup that's

[00:33:23] what I was thinking this entire episode was like this is part of the problem yeah that's a whole

[00:33:29] other but she would just be terrible in that type of situation that is the last type of personality

[00:33:35] you want with that type of power yeah and strength and you know we see the consequences of that in

[00:33:42] this episode and it's just it's so painful to watch to a certain extent because you see it coming

[00:33:50] from a mile away from the introduction of her character and how much she's had to deal with

[00:33:55] growing up and the instability that she suffered and this is kind of that fork in the road

[00:34:02] moment for her as a human as a person which direction do you want to take and for right now

[00:34:10] we see her going down the wrong path and it's just it's hard to watch because I don't know faith is

[00:34:18] such a compelling character and she's so three-dimensional and fleshed out that you know I

[00:34:25] will never forget watching this one live when it aired seeing her go and having the realization

[00:34:32] that she was turning in Buffy to Giles and I still remember thinking you know as what 11 year old me

[00:34:40] that Giles believed her and yeah Giles was a very good liar yeah yeah absolutely yeah he was

[00:34:48] just like that's because he's a good actor yeah that's true but that scene was amazing when

[00:34:55] Buffy goes in and she's like worked up her courage to talk to Giles and then faith comes out of the

[00:35:01] office and she gives Buffy this almost sexy look of like I feel very vindicated yeah teasing and

[00:35:15] and like winky there's something about it like I've already told him yeah hell and then you know when

[00:35:21] Buffy realizes what's going on and that faith is setting her up faith then cannot make eye contact

[00:35:27] with Buffy her eyes are everywhere except Buffy in the rest of that scene and the tension between

[00:35:33] the three of them is palpable in that moment and Giles is so wise right he's like faith

[00:35:39] he knows how important Buffy get in my office like he's like he knows that faith has to be all in

[00:35:47] and believing that Giles believed her side because otherwise otherwise she probably would have killed

[00:35:53] Giles in that moment yeah like he knows that she is kind of a little too far gone at this point

[00:36:00] to be reasoned with one of my favorite lines throwing Buffy under one of my favorite lines

[00:36:04] from the episode was there because in that sequence he says you know I had to make faith

[00:36:10] think I believed her I don't know how far she will take this and Buffy says try far like all the way

[00:36:17] far yeah there are this episode is really light on quippy fun dialogue yeah it's a really heavy

[00:36:30] dark episode and yeah there were just a couple of moments of yeah of light a lot of that was one

[00:36:36] of them Wesley being a little creepy those were some Wesley oh actually let's talk about Wesley

[00:36:44] for a little bit of a break from from the faith talk and um I want to start it off with uh this

[00:36:52] great moment check out Giles the next generation what's your deal I uh well

[00:37:02] I'm a new watcher oh does everybody know about you she's a friend let's not exaggerate so

[00:37:13] you're the new watcher Wesley windham price I like a man with two last names I'm Cordelia

[00:37:22] and you teach psychology I take psychology she's a student oh well uh yes in fact I am oops here to watch

[00:37:32] girls a dead of a buffering faith to be specific well it's about time we got some fresh blood around

[00:37:40] here oh god well fresh yes here we go thanks so welcome to Sunnydale

[00:37:58] my she's cheeky isn't she uh first word jail second word bait

[00:38:06] well uh where were we

[00:38:13] my gosh oh Wesley it's probably the the funniest scene in the episode and it's it's so

[00:38:23] adorable knowing what I know about Wesley's arc in the future but I remember watching this scene

[00:38:33] live and being like he's gross like you're gross Wesley that's disgusting and also now part of me is

[00:38:41] like well what do they think is going to happen when they dress Cordelia like she's like a 26 year

[00:38:45] old paralegal all the time yeah like when chris macarpenter herself is older than most of the other cast

[00:38:54] and it's just it's so funny I but I love Giles walking behind kind of like cleaning his

[00:39:00] glasses and just throwing out she's a student yeah it's so fun man get it together and then my favorite

[00:39:08] my favorite part of that is when when Buffy says oh she's a she's a friend and she says let's not

[00:39:17] it's not exaggerate let's not exaggerate it's so because you know Cordelia was part of their

[00:39:22] friend group while she was dating Xander but she never really likes like Buffy ever like that

[00:39:30] that relationship was one of of you know mutual goals not one of any kind of yes she kind of

[00:39:37] begrudgingly respected her yeah in a way but she's never warmed to Buffy and it's oh god it's so

[00:39:46] funny and I mean this the Wesley thing serves a great purpose in that it it'll bring Cordelia back

[00:39:54] into the inner circle because she wants she wants to be around Wesley so we don't lose her from the

[00:39:59] Scooby gang and she's such a great voice of truth all the time yeah but in the moment this is one

[00:40:06] of the very first introductions we have with him right I mean this season is when this is the

[00:40:12] first yeah yeah last episode was last episode and then this is the this is when he and Cordelia meet

[00:40:19] and what an evolution it makes him look horrible right we already don't have a lot of here to

[00:40:25] watch girls I was like all right man yeah like oh think it through yeah it also makes me wonder like

[00:40:34] what does the the greater community of Sunnydale high school think Wesley is doing there

[00:40:41] right like is he backup librarian yes he is the story that he's a librarian or is he just meant

[00:40:47] I don't think he works I don't think he works at the school yeah another adult man hanging out

[00:40:52] yeah like oh let's let some unknown adult man hang out at the high school around all these

[00:40:59] girls all the time it's it wouldn't it wouldn't fly in a real high school I hope no even though

[00:41:06] he's British and wearing a suit which I think helps you get past a lot of gatekeepers like people

[00:41:11] just assume like a clean cut suited man is like not a threat but it serves the scene serves the

[00:41:20] purpose of removing the like last bit of respect any of us might have had for what for Wesley after

[00:41:27] last episode when he was such a coward in the face of actual danger and like tried to sell out

[00:41:33] the team immediately to save his own skin and all that stuff there was there was maybe the

[00:41:39] tiniest shred of respect for him left and he's right that they should investigate the murder

[00:41:45] of Alan Finch but his his behavior to Cordelia in that scene is like okay there's nothing

[00:41:52] in there that's real he's just a putz um and and everyone's amusement about it is

[00:42:02] it's just delightful like even faith is like that's hilarious

[00:42:08] jailbait which is a creepy phrase really yeah again you know coming back to our when I was

[00:42:16] saying about the the reason I was drawn to this show the the story arc without I I didn't realize

[00:42:22] you guys are careful about spoilers so I won't oh yeah sorry I should have warned you that sometimes

[00:42:29] we let things slip a little more which is not we're not Wesley's character growth over this show

[00:42:37] and over the angel show it's just it's just incredible yeah I mean when you take all of

[00:42:43] these characters um you know I think think of of uh of spike you know what I mean um even angel uh

[00:42:52] they're just the evolution Cordelia um I mean you really it was fun to stay with this show because

[00:43:00] people evolved characters evolved they went from being bad to being not so bad to being good

[00:43:05] to being evil again to you know there was always this evolution and and they learned from

[00:43:12] from the things that happen yes yes excellent just disappear like a lot of tv shows in order

[00:43:18] especially back then when the you know before streaming before you could rewatch things as

[00:43:22] much as you wanted to the show had most shows were structured and the characters were written

[00:43:28] kind of statically so that you would always recognize them think about like cartoons

[00:43:33] where they don't even change clothes right they're always and that's what people were

[00:43:37] and people were drawn to that they wanted to turn on the show and get their character who they

[00:43:41] liked and who they wanted to see and they would you know get the same thing every time and and

[00:43:46] that that was I don't know made people feel secure I don't know yeah well I just think of

[00:43:53] but it made this show really stand out because the characters really grow and change over time

[00:43:58] yes yeah and and you're and you're like for them changes yeah oh yeah I mean the range of emotions

[00:44:07] that I felt watching you know the whole entire series towards faith for sure angel spike like even

[00:44:17] Giles at times like everyone is flawed I don't think there's anyone that's kind of the think

[00:44:24] of all yanna oh yeah onion is unbelievable that arc is unbelievable especially the way it ends

[00:44:32] oh my gosh oh yeah just total 360 degrees well I just everything like it's so rich and they

[00:44:40] pay such attention like you guys are talking about to the continuity and you know having

[00:44:46] characters remember past things that would seriously affect them you know there are references

[00:44:53] in season seven to stuff that happens during seasons two and three like they keep it going in a way

[00:45:01] that gives everything such a lived-in feel and this writing in season three to set up faith

[00:45:09] storyline and what happens in the future future I think is some of the best writing we've seen

[00:45:13] on television period the way that they tie it all together and I don't think it gets enough

[00:45:19] credit I think that faith and we talked about this last week and Kirk talked about it a little bit is

[00:45:24] that she's she's the dark mirror image of Buffy right and I don't think that that had been done as well

[00:45:32] before this and and now I see it and we talked about this too but on The Walking Dead with Rick

[00:45:40] Shane it played out again in very similar way and I think it's a powerful structure for a story

[00:45:51] to give a character their dark half to bond with and fight with and love and hate and

[00:46:00] it it's a rich trope even though it's become kind of a trope it this is one of the first

[00:46:09] times at least I ever saw it and I remember at the time I just could not get enough of the faith

[00:46:15] storyline I was like what is faith gonna do this week like I just and if there's an episode that

[00:46:21] she's not really in like how she wasn't really in helpless I was like where's my faith I know

[00:46:27] like I want her to be in every especially the same thing week to week yeah yeah damn

[00:46:34] there's a whole week without faith in it oh man um yeah it's the same way I feel about spike

[00:46:40] I want spike to be in every single episode because he's so interesting and and fun um also there's

[00:46:50] a part of me that just loves that faith is from Massachusetts and that she's got like just a little

[00:46:56] bit of a Massachusetts accent and everything that she says something very new English

[00:47:01] and it just makes me feel warm and and and like I'm a part of the story and some weird

[00:47:06] way you know what else is you know what else is interesting too is that it's so important to

[00:47:11] the show that all of the surrounding characters grow and change in our effect like we're talking

[00:47:16] about because Buffy can't really do that they experimented I think in season six with it

[00:47:25] but I don't know if whether they were I don't know if they were as successful as they'd

[00:47:30] hope they'd be with that you know but she had to be the true blue superhero she had to be the

[00:47:37] captain America she had to be the always do the right thing character so you needed to have

[00:47:44] all of the character development and growth and emotion and connection going on with all

[00:47:49] the surrounding characters um yeah she does grow and change but you're right not as much as say

[00:47:56] Willow right like she because she is always at heart this the slayer and most of her major growth

[00:48:06] happens in these first couple of seasons when she's coming to terms with her fate and being the slayer

[00:48:14] and honestly her relationship with faith really solidifies who she is having to face

[00:48:21] her dark half I think is sort of one of the biggest turning points in Buffy's growth as a human first it

[00:48:29] was having to sacrifice angel and then facing this darkness that could be inside her if she wasn't

[00:48:39] diligent about keeping it back is is the other big turning point in her character and then I

[00:48:47] the future seasons with Buffy are just sort of polishing the edges of those major developments

[00:48:53] and you're right the other characters get to have a lot more growth well and and they they shine

[00:49:00] they show her growth through their growth yeah to your point yeah the relationships change and grow

[00:49:07] and contract and morph over time her relationships with each of them it's the the burden of a

[00:49:14] central character in in any series is that they they can't be as interesting as the side characters

[00:49:22] because they have to carry the continuity and carry the plot and there has to be some steadiness

[00:49:28] to them and that's why a lot of actors say they prefer to play you know characters because

[00:49:34] they get to be a villain or to be more flawed or to be more you know to go through more change

[00:49:41] side characters just have more freedom and and because of the the most the powerful relationships

[00:49:48] that she has with everybody in this cast you you do get chances to see her dealing with issues and

[00:49:57] and growing it's just smaller like for instance with Willow in this episode I thought it was

[00:50:03] I just I mean every every scene with Buffy and Willow was always fantastic they just had this

[00:50:10] chemistry I think and it just worked out really really well but you know they just

[00:50:16] they always end up coming back together they you know she she helps ground Buffy she

[00:50:24] you know which is why it's also painful in season six when she struggles you know but

[00:50:29] but yeah I think I agree with you everything you said there I think that you know she's got

[00:50:34] to be the central figure but but through her relationships with these people

[00:50:38] that she cares so much about we get development in her but it's it's different

[00:50:43] the the scenes with Willow are really interesting so in the ha in the first scene they're just

[00:50:50] awkward and Willow bales almost immediately Buffy's like hi Willow's like yeah I gotta go

[00:50:56] well the pain you can see the pain there's so much awkwardness and and unspoken things and Willow

[00:51:02] then names it later when she says I've been letting things fester and that moment where Willow often

[00:51:09] has the best lines um where Willow just unloads all of the things she's thinking and then Buffy

[00:51:14] starts crying and and then Buffy unloads to Willow and Willow switches to support mode so quickly

[00:51:23] and yeah is so understanding and and non-judgmental it's a it's a beautiful model of a female friendship

[00:51:30] where we hardly ever see them competitive with each other and yeah when they are it's either played

[00:51:39] as a joke there's a there's a moment in season five where Buffy does well on a paper and and

[00:51:44] you know and Willow is like I'm academically jealous of you congratulations you know

[00:51:50] I love that but it's at the time there weren't a lot of female friendships on tv

[00:51:58] that weren't like romantically competing or where the the best friend was either like so weak

[00:52:08] compared to the main character that they were no competition or they were like rivals and yeah

[00:52:15] this is a real friendship that really speaks to me based on like my own friendships that I've had

[00:52:21] over the years with with women that can have ups and downs and complications and misunderstandings

[00:52:26] but at the end love will get through all those things and the love between the two of them

[00:52:34] is again I'm using the same word palpable yeah well they have such respect for each other

[00:52:42] I think at the center of everything and they each see the other's strengths and admire them

[00:52:50] and there's no ounce of like you like the competition isn't there they aren't competing over

[00:52:57] male attention or anything like that they just both see each other for who they are

[00:53:03] and care about the other one and that is so rare not just in female friendships you know in

[00:53:08] general portrayed in the media but for teenage female friendships especially and willow just

[00:53:16] she breaks my heart in this in this episode willow was always to me the kind of ideal friend

[00:53:24] you know the kind of person you would want to have as a friend because she's funny and light-hearted

[00:53:31] but at the same time could be very serious if needed be she was also very honest yeah

[00:53:36] willow is always so honest she calls it like it is and she's the one that will come up to you and say

[00:53:42] you know what you're being a bit of a dick here you know what I mean I'm not taking sides I just

[00:53:47] want you to know you know this is how you're coming off and yeah you need that you know

[00:53:52] and from a good friend and she's not intimidated by Buffy and who she is that's true that's for

[00:53:58] sure that is very true and willow has her own issues but they are not

[00:54:07] they're not really

[00:54:10] buffies Buffy related and so their friendship is able to to be this source of strength for

[00:54:17] both of them we talked about this a little bit in season two in the halloween episode when Buffy

[00:54:23] wants to make willow look sexy and put on a costume that doesn't hide her and there's not a moment where

[00:54:31] Buffy is at all worried that willow is going to outshine her that's not it doesn't cross her mind

[00:54:37] she just wants willow to blossom and be the best willow she can be and it's a beautiful moment

[00:54:43] and the when willow you know lets Buffy unload on her in this scene and then says like you

[00:54:50] have to go to Giles it's another beautiful moment of friendship where all the other concerns are put

[00:54:56] aside and willow is focused on what Buffy needs in that moment and is so understanding and like I

[00:55:03] said non-judgmental yeah and and willow of probably of everyone has the most empathy yeah she's

[00:55:11] the character with the most ability to provide empathy for her friends and for people around her

[00:55:17] you know and like she's all upset because she feels like maybe she's done something wrong and

[00:55:24] that Buffy is mad at her but the minute Buffy breaks down she realizes this isn't about her

[00:55:32] yeah you know what I mean and then she's able to have complete empathy for her and listen to

[00:55:37] her and advise her and just just just wonderful we should all have a willow in our lives

[00:55:43] I was such a shame that Faith doesn't get to experience that you know like because she could have

[00:55:50] it could have worked out where she was you know kind of brought in somewhat seamlessly

[00:55:57] and she needs a willow and she doesn't desperately no well she needs an angel first

[00:56:04] yeah she's not ready to get to a willow oh no yeah she's gotta get she's gonna get

[00:56:08] get through the addiction problems it's interesting I got a question oh I'm sorry go ahead oh I was

[00:56:13] gonna contrast willow to Xander because Xander immediately makes the faith dilemma about himself

[00:56:23] he inserts her into it immediately and then they're like don't go there and he goes there anyway

[00:56:29] because he wants so badly to be at the center of everything that he can't listen to reason

[00:56:38] yeah well and I do have a little bit of

[00:56:42] sympathy for him here like it's made pretty clear in the last episode that he had never slept with

[00:56:48] anyone before faith and you know we saw in the Zepo how sometimes you just feel so useless

[00:56:57] in that group of friends and he seems to think like oh finally like I have a connection with faith

[00:57:02] I can be helpful yeah and it's just you know immediately as soon as he says it that it's not

[00:57:08] gonna go the way he thinks it is and I just I feel so bad for him when he goes over there every

[00:57:16] time and you kind of see the realization in his eyes and the fear when she starts choking him

[00:57:21] and not letting go yeah he's just like oh I've made a terrible mistake yeah this is not at all what I

[00:57:28] thought it was it was heartbreaking you know it's crushing why some you know no pun intended

[00:57:38] I have a question yep and I apologize I did not watch a bunch of episodes prior or after so

[00:57:45] but and I my memory is not what it used to be so why was Willow so destroyed by Xander's admission

[00:57:54] of sleeping with faith because I thought at this point isn't she with Oz or yeah she is but I think

[00:58:00] it's three pronged and kind of complicated well we got time let's go yeah I mean we know so

[00:58:09] and Penny jump in when you feel like it but we know obviously that she has had this long-standing

[00:58:18] friendship and crush on Xander they've known each other since they were children she was in

[00:58:24] love with him it was very complicated she had to see him you know kind of obsess over

[00:58:30] Buffy when Buffy came there and then she sees him get with Cordelia and he finally gives her

[00:58:38] the attention that you know she had been starving for and the affection she had been starving for

[00:58:44] and now she's already dealing so one aspect of it she is already dealing with the fact that she

[00:58:50] feels that faith is kind of taking Buffy away from her a little bit and Buffy and Xander her

[00:58:57] two best friends and once she finds out that Xander has connected with faith I would assume

[00:59:03] that that plays into it that worried that faith is now going to draw you know Xander away from her

[00:59:11] and then on top of that you know she is just basically recommitted and gone all in on her

[00:59:17] relationship with Oz and I'm assuming that she still has feelings for Xander she had such

[00:59:23] strong ones I'm sure they're not magically gone and realizing that she has now she now

[00:59:30] has to think about him sleeping with someone else and I also assume that she imagined losing

[00:59:36] her virginity with Xander over the years plenty of times and that may have been something that

[00:59:43] she thought was going to happen and you know she's struggling with that relation that they

[00:59:50] they flirted with in earlier seasons I mean they fool around she and Xander but it's just

[00:59:58] kissing I think Kara that you're right that she probably has imagined many times

[01:00:04] not just losing her virginity to Xander but them losing their virginities together

[01:00:10] I think especially teenagers put a ton of meaning on that that doesn't really need to be there

[01:00:18] yeah and I think also it was like the last nail in the coffin of her feelings for Xander

[01:00:26] her crush on him it was like it was like the final realization that it's not ever going to happen

[01:00:33] like that right right yeah that makes sense that is she's she's saying goodbye to that

[01:00:40] part of her feelings and and relationship with him I don't think she would ever have cheated on

[01:00:47] Oz again after everything that happened and he took her back but you know when you have feelings

[01:00:55] that strong for someone and for that long they don't just go away yeah even if you're making

[01:01:01] an active choice yeah it's it's interesting that Oz is not in this episode yeah because it gives us

[01:01:09] the the space to remember that right willow and Xander have this history and and without the

[01:01:16] complication of Oz sitting right there and I think she also is is is crying just from

[01:01:25] the stress of the whole thing right the seriousness of it that when you have a big intense

[01:01:33] conversation like the like you know the four of them have and and a big realization that

[01:01:40] Xander slept with faith and all this stuff is is difficult and heavy and dark I think she just

[01:01:49] it was just too much it's too overwhelming and she sort of quietly goes in the bathroom to cry

[01:01:55] because she doesn't want anyone else to see her fall apart but I I mean I've certainly done that

[01:02:03] just because things get to be too much and crying is a great way to release the that

[01:02:08] overwhelmed feeling yep I love that they included that that reaction in this episode because I think

[01:02:15] it's so realistic that willow would feel that way and it's it's complicated and you see

[01:02:25] had it dawn on her way before it dawns on Buffy or Giles yeah she immediately gets it

[01:02:33] and how's the handing it I don't know what it is but maybe it's like a lip quiver or

[01:02:37] something that she does but whenever she looks upset it just makes me feel it so much more than

[01:02:45] some other actors I'm just like don't hurt willow like that yeah I remember in one of the DVD

[01:02:51] commentaries one of the writers is talking about willow and Alice and Hanigan and and her ability

[01:02:58] to to look vulnerable and hurt and they're like yeah whenever we're in doubt we just put willow

[01:03:04] in danger and we know that our audience is going to have strong emotions about that it's true because

[01:03:11] I think it's also I think it's also that what we were talking about earlier is that her character

[01:03:17] is so um loyal and and honest and truthful and filled with empathy for her friends and is

[01:03:25] always leaned on by everybody and she's there for them so you know to see her in pain

[01:03:33] is really even more dramatic it's more powerful it's more hurtful you know yeah she's like the

[01:03:39] heart of the group yeah exactly and she's she's very raw her emotions are usually right right under

[01:03:46] the surface and yeah accessible you know Buffy has to keep some of her emotions more tamped down

[01:03:54] as a slayer we've talked about a lot about how Sarah Michelle Geller is great at performing

[01:03:59] vulnerability and softening her face I think I think Xander is a typical teenage boy and that he hides a

[01:04:07] lot of his emotions and you know has a lot of bluster and and silliness that he uses to cover them up

[01:04:14] and so willow really is this raw beating heart that that allows the audience to go through a

[01:04:22] lot of emotions as well like we identify with her yeah I do and it's not like you know Xander

[01:04:28] didn't really have a fair chance what from what it sounds like growing up in his household

[01:04:33] whereas willow who had you know psychologist or she's a psychiatrist it's dr. Rosenberg right

[01:04:41] her mom who constantly was trying to psychoanalyze willow and discuss emotions and all sorts of

[01:04:49] stuff which it seems like had the opposite effect that her mom intended of them bonding

[01:04:56] but at the same time willow is incredibly emotionally intelligent and Xander's not quite

[01:05:03] there yet but I think she sees things clearer than anybody else she's incredibly observant

[01:05:12] and in tune with everybody's emotions and motivations behind their actions and she feels

[01:05:18] things deeper than everybody else yeah and she's so smart that she just processes information so

[01:05:27] quickly so when Xander's like well we kind of connected yeah like willow's brain goes click

[01:05:33] click click click click got it and being ahead of everybody else all the time like that must be

[01:05:40] um frustrating sometimes to be like come on catch up like yeah I already got there let's go

[01:05:48] um it's uh it's one of the reasons why she sort of hero worships Giles it's like finally another

[01:05:56] person who you know understands books and is smart and and thinks quickly it makes her happy when

[01:06:04] she meets him and gets to be close with him um he sort of takes the place of a father for all of

[01:06:10] the scoobies yeah you're right he does and I guess Xander is his most disappointing yeah

[01:06:16] it's like he just can't handle Xander no he can't there aren't many that could it took

[01:06:25] it took a demon to be able to handle him yeah that's true it's true

[01:06:32] Xander we love you and we hate you Xander um you're very problematic but you're also adorable

[01:06:39] and funny so we forgive a lot um so when Xander goes to talk to Faith at her motel room it's

[01:06:50] it's such a cringy scene because you we all know from many conversations with Faith that she just

[01:06:57] doesn't think of having sex with someone as a connection to her it'd be the same as like

[01:07:04] playing a game of tennis like thanks for a good workout you know like it right and like she has

[01:07:10] a craving for a sandwich or a meatball sub you eat the meatball sub you're done it's out

[01:07:16] of your mind yeah you got here she's scared of connection oh absolutely she's terrified of connection

[01:07:22] because of you know the potential to lose lose that and get hurt the pain from it and you know she

[01:07:28] uses sex as a mask as she uses sex as another numbing agent like she uses violence and and

[01:07:39] even though Buffy tries to explain that to Xander he can't conceive that what was so meaningful to

[01:07:46] him was not meaningful to her in some way and I he just puts his head in the noose he's just like

[01:07:55] but that's but that's understandable oh yeah I mean it's like yeah he was so naive and young and immature

[01:08:03] and inexperienced and and so blind going into it you know yeah it's the scene is so painful because

[01:08:11] you like the audience knows that Faith is in a bad place and that she is violent and

[01:08:19] Xander goes over there because he just can't help himself and he thinks he knows better than

[01:08:26] everybody else who's told him not to do it and and then you know she turns on him pretty

[01:08:31] quickly and it gets ugly pretty quickly and it's disturbing the look on his face is sort of equally

[01:08:39] terrified of imminent death and also just like the sad realization that having sex meant nothing to her

[01:08:47] yeah right because I I don't know if how you guys felt watching it either the first time or again

[01:08:54] but I have no problem believing that if Angel hadn't interrupted Faith would have killed him

[01:09:00] in that moment or whether seriously hurt him yeah like either you know I don't think she intended

[01:09:07] to necessarily kill him like she was probably at least what I would assume is she was getting as

[01:09:13] close as she thought she could without actually killing him like toying with the idea of feeling

[01:09:19] that power and having his life in her hands yeah but that slay her strength that's kind of hard

[01:09:27] yeah well he also I think was big had become symbolic for her in that moment of all of this guilt and

[01:09:36] disgust and anger at herself that is being reflected at her from the scooby gang you know what I mean

[01:09:44] yeah she's judging herself the way she believes they're judging her and yeah Xander represents the

[01:09:51] whole scooby gang at that point and so she's like you you don't want me anymore I can tell you don't

[01:09:57] actually care about me and and she loses herself in the violence of the moment care you're right

[01:10:03] she might have killed him because we've seen her she gets lost in the moment and she just goes

[01:10:08] through with things without a lot of thought it it would have been very hard to kill him

[01:10:14] also to Angel's point she you know she doesn't want to see that side of her

[01:10:21] right you know what I mean and they're making her see that side of her and and she wants to punish

[01:10:27] them for that you know I think it's interesting too you know kind of fits in with how faith is

[01:10:34] seeing herself right now one thing that I think is very distinct between her and Buffy in this

[01:10:40] episode and how they deal with her killing Alan is that Buffy kind of truly experiences the guilt

[01:10:51] and she feels that responsibility for what happened whereas faith goes into almost like a

[01:10:58] a shame spiral which is a bit more dangerous and is more about the judgment that she probably

[01:11:05] feels from others judgment on herself being like well am I exactly who they said I was whereas

[01:11:13] the responsibility aspect is gone from it and she becomes almost defiant because of that shame and

[01:11:20] trying to rationalize and overcome it whereas Buffy is pure guilt she's just like we were

[01:11:27] responsible for this we need to do the right thing and they just this is really where they

[01:11:33] start to diverge and you know how they take responsibility and what they value going forward

[01:11:42] and I call this the spider-man episode because with great power comes great responsibility

[01:11:51] yes and it's kind of X-men ish yeah you know like seeing as where faith starts talking about

[01:12:00] you know we basically have superpowers we are better than everyone else oh yeah she's kind of

[01:12:06] back me up yeah it's like right well we have responsibility I missed the mark last night

[01:12:14] and I'm sorry about the guy I really am but it happens anyways how many people do you think

[01:12:20] we saved by now thousands and didn't you stop the world from ending because in my book that

[01:12:26] puts you and me in the plus column we help people it doesn't mean we can do whatever we want why not

[01:12:32] guy off was no gondi I mean we just saw he was mixed up in dirty dealings maybe but what if he was

[01:12:37] coming to us for help what if he was you're still not seeing the big picture B something made us

[01:12:43] different we're warriors we were built to kill to kill demons but it does not mean that we get

[01:12:48] to pass judgment on people like we're better than everybody we are better

[01:12:55] that's right better people need us to survive in the balance nobody's gonna cry over some random

[01:13:02] bystander who got caught in the crossfire I am

[01:13:09] that's your loss

[01:13:10] it's almost like the stages of grief that that faith is going through and this is the bargaining

[01:13:22] stage where she's justifying her own actions and she's taking that argument to its logical

[01:13:29] conclusion which is we're kind of better than everyone else we can judge other people rules

[01:13:36] shouldn't apply to us because we have these abilities and these powers it's also a very narcissistic

[01:13:43] kind of sociopathic kind of approach or mentality yeah she's in a she's in a shame spiral and she's

[01:13:52] grasping at straws for what will make her feel better she desperately wants to convince Buffy

[01:13:59] at the early stages of this episode because she wants someone else to say yeah you're right

[01:14:04] like this is what happens and you know what you did was okay and she's not going to get that from

[01:14:09] Buffy and then of course she turns to anger after that like once she can't convince Buffy to side

[01:14:14] with her she's she's angry interesting that's a good point because it brings me back to that

[01:14:20] when Giles actually Giles does that for Buffy yeah because he says listen this is not the first

[01:14:26] time this has happened this you know given what you're doing these accidents happen you know what

[01:14:32] I mean yeah you have to deal with them we have to deal with them there'll be an investigation we have

[01:14:36] to go through the process but um you know and it makes sense that the watchers council would have

[01:14:42] dealt with us before of course they've dealt with it before sure of course I think if when

[01:14:46] Xander went over to Faith's hotel room and she said you know well go talk to Buffy she's the one

[01:14:51] that accidentally murdered someone if Xander had said yeah but willows with Buffy and I thought

[01:14:58] you could use a friend if he had just sort of gone along with her version of the story I don't think

[01:15:04] she would have turned on him the way she did I think she would have been so grateful to have somebody

[01:15:11] like you know on her side believing her version of the story I I um I read this interesting

[01:15:18] article recently was written by a therapist about that shame is the hardest emotion

[01:15:26] to help people get out of that makes sense that shame sticks to your psyche in a way that other

[01:15:36] negative emotions don't uh as powerfully fear is another one fear is deep right it it your brain

[01:15:46] saves fearful memories in the brain stem so that they're you know part of your they become

[01:15:51] part of your instinctive reactions to the world but shame colors everything and it prevents healing

[01:15:58] and it prevents moving forward do you think shame is why Buffy didn't bring up the Ted

[01:16:07] incident I have no good explanation for why the Ted incident doesn't come up

[01:16:12] because Buffy I'm assuming all of these things that she's thinking that faith

[01:16:18] should be feeling or is going through would be based on things she felt when she was

[01:16:24] convinced she killed Ted and questioned by detectives and it's the same detective

[01:16:29] that questioned her about Ted and Kendra yeah yeah so like how does this not come up at all

[01:16:40] and if the police of sunny day like deep that's true yeah they really are um but if Buffy is

[01:16:47] wanting to connect with faith why not say look I thought I killed my mom's boyfriend for a period

[01:16:53] of time like I get what you're going through yeah I really don't understand why no one brings up

[01:16:59] Ted like there's a point when Giles would say like listen you know you thought this was happening

[01:17:05] to you last year remember and we talked about it like it's so weird that it doesn't come up

[01:17:10] the fact that you know eventually Ted is revealed to be a psychopathic robot murderer serial killer

[01:17:16] doesn't change that 24 hours where Buffy thought she had killed him and where her guilt was you know

[01:17:23] unreal she whipped out the overalls of sadness and yeah and well and Buffy was kind of waiting for

[01:17:31] that confrontation too like that I mean yes technically like he struck her and it was a

[01:17:38] self-defense situation but she was amped ready for him yeah she hated it on her yeah and I think

[01:17:46] she even says oh I was so hoping you would do that yes so it's like Buffy can you not think

[01:17:53] that that would reach but anyway I don't know that really doesn't learn from it like there's

[01:18:00] definitely a moment when she wants to hit Quentin Travers and she's like I can't I'm

[01:18:07] the slayer I'll kill him like yeah she's aware of her own power in a way yeah Quentin Travers

[01:18:14] deserves to be hit um he's such a slime uh I um speaking of the council let's go back to Wesley

[01:18:26] and calling in the the troops to take faith to England and the whole scene where she's gonna

[01:18:33] pop that one guy's head like a grape and and manages to escape is it's another moment of

[01:18:40] a little bit of comic relief because it's just so fun to see Wesley handed his hat like

[01:18:46] that's like what did you think was gonna happen man like you're an idiot like you

[01:18:51] you're over your head yeah you're in so over your head and like did you not learn that last

[01:18:56] week when you couldn't face up against Balthazar and his vampire minions like what you're doing

[01:19:03] when he's skulking around outside Giles' office Eve's dropping on Giles and Buffy talking about

[01:19:09] how they're not going to tell anyone else yeah I honestly think he calls the council and gets

[01:19:14] them involved out of equal parts obedience to the council's policies and jealousy over Giles'

[01:19:21] relationship with Buffy oh absolutely feeling left out it's petty tantrum yeah it's really petty

[01:19:27] and he's very petty and the council was wholly unprepared only one dude in that truck with faith

[01:19:34] come on that is a terrible idea I do not understand their thinking this has been you know centuries

[01:19:42] it goes back centuries the council's relationship with Slayers they know how powerful they are

[01:19:47] yeah this cannot be the first time we know it's not the first time that a Slayer has accidentally

[01:19:53] killed a human or killed a human in general you would think they would have some sort of protocol

[01:19:59] like three grown men to one Slayer at least and tranquilizers yeah we know they have those

[01:20:07] that's all that's what it was gonna take yeah that was the only thing that was gonna stop her

[01:20:12] yeah like you have to completely incapacitate a Slayer because they are powerful and resourceful

[01:20:19] and creative I think maybe perhaps the the implication was that that faith is unlike any

[01:20:26] other Slayer yeah and that Slayers feel responsibility they have a role and they understand it and

[01:20:35] they like Buffy would feel guilty about this and want it resolved and want to deal with it and

[01:20:41] that's just not the Slayer that faith is yeah and respect the authority of the council right

[01:20:47] right exactly she doesn't respect any authority except her own none yeah even though Buffy doesn't

[01:20:52] necessarily respect the council's authority over her in general I think she would submit to it if

[01:21:00] this were her in that situation she would understand that she'd done something wrong and

[01:21:05] there needed to be some sort of consequence but faith just she's like a wild animal right

[01:21:13] she she's she's broken hadn't she broken with the council at this point not no Buffy hasn't

[01:21:19] broken with the council and faith the close what was the episode what was the episode was it

[01:21:25] before this or after this where she has to do the trials that's before oh yeah that's before that's

[01:21:31] two before this I think helpless but three before it yeah and um but she at this point

[01:21:37] she's still subject to the council's authority you know she sort of begrudgingly lets Wesley

[01:21:43] be her new watcher even though she still looks to Giles you know she's not like outwardly just

[01:21:50] completely rejecting Wesley but she does reject them eventually right yeah yeah okay okay um and

[01:21:58] sending Wesley there doesn't go it sending Wesley there is Larry's charge over both of them I'd love

[01:22:05] to think about the scene where Quentin can't watch over himself where Quentin has returned from

[01:22:11] Sunnydale to England right after the after the events of helpless he's met Buffy he's seen that

[01:22:19] she has this relationship with Giles he's seen that she's defiant and creative and all these other

[01:22:25] things and then he goes back to the watchers council and he's like I know who will send a

[01:22:31] Sunnydale Wesley like how did that choice happen like what was that meeting where he was like

[01:22:38] punishment that must be it very corporate decision yeah it's like you get to go deal with this mess

[01:22:44] yeah it's like they could have at least sent somebody maybe a woman would have had a better chance

[01:22:51] I'd like bonding with faith although after the Gwendolyn post thing who knows I don't know if

[01:22:57] anyone could have really bonded with faith at that point I she may have been a lost cause all along

[01:23:04] like the the murder was just the thing that triggered her spiral but something was bound to

[01:23:12] happen because she was behaving so recklessly and and she has all this firepower it's like

[01:23:19] giving a traumatized teenager a machine gun and expecting them not to eventually kill someone

[01:23:24] with it like she has all this power and you know like a regular traumatized teen who doesn't have a

[01:23:33] lot of power what's the worst that they can do like if they don't have access to a gun or something

[01:23:38] like that they maybe get into car accidents maybe they do shoplifting maybe they get into

[01:23:44] fistfights but these are all containable traumas and and tragedies but somebody with the firepower

[01:23:51] of a slayer it's just this epic level of danger that's so much scarier than your run of the mill

[01:24:03] traumatized teenager and they and they do a good job with that in her character later in the angel

[01:24:09] series yeah um and with Wesley I mean the arc of the two of them have is pretty pretty intense

[01:24:15] yeah I'm excited to get to those episodes and oh fantastic that's fantastic stuff I've been having

[01:24:21] to stop myself really like truly stop myself from watching ahead this time yeah it's it's so hard

[01:24:31] the only thing that is making it easier for me to not watch ahead on Buffy and Angel is my current

[01:24:37] obsession with the show showgun and how whenever I have a down moment I'm like well I could

[01:24:44] watch showgun again like I've just I've heard a lot of good things about that it's I have so

[01:24:50] beautifully created yeah I need to give that a check I've been watching I've been so like burnout

[01:24:56] at work I've been watching utterly mindless television so I should I should dive back

[01:25:03] into something that is actually somewhat stimulating yeah not under any rules yeah I

[01:25:09] recommend showgun I recommend you watch it um when you have the time to dedicate to it and

[01:25:16] put your phone away there's a lot of subtitles so you're you're not going to want to be distracted

[01:25:21] because you'll miss a lot that's why I love subtitles it forces me to pay attention

[01:25:27] yeah all ADHD it's a it's a very um I think people who like Buffy would like showgun

[01:25:35] there's a lot uh first of all badass women there are some badass women in that in that series

[01:25:41] even though the the culture of feudal Japan is quite oppressive and women are viewed as property

[01:25:48] women in the story manage to within the roles that are given to them by that society are

[01:25:55] are able to wield power in creative ways soft power and and I find that really interesting

[01:26:01] um there's also uh great fight scenes like the samurai style of warfare is beautiful to watch

[01:26:10] looks like a dance yeah it's it's anyway this is not a showgun podcast but

[01:26:17] I uh I love it and I'm obsessed with it and there's only two episodes left and I'm like what am I

[01:26:22] gonna do after that that's on hula right yeah hula okay um and I'm listening to not one not two

[01:26:31] but four different podcasts about it as well nice oh my gosh I'm obsessed obsessed oh my gosh

[01:26:39] anyway it's one of the only shows podcast because not covering too so it's like I had to go outside

[01:26:45] the podcast good network to listen to some other podcasts so I'm surprised I would take a show

[01:26:50] like that would have a cast I think I think that they're just it it fell at a time when

[01:26:57] people weren't like there wasn't availability and the fact that it's only going to be one season

[01:27:02] like it didn't it just didn't um there has been some chatter about doing a one podcast episode

[01:27:10] wrap up of the whole series at the end I know um Jonathan of Star Wars cast is also a huge

[01:27:17] showgun fan and um we might do something but it hasn't coalesced yeah anyway on back to Buffy

[01:27:28] we should pour one out for uh mr trick yeah let's talk about that as a character he had a great

[01:27:37] death moment though when did what he's like oh no this isn't good at all he also made a kind of

[01:27:48] crass joke when he says you know I heard once you taste slayer blood you never want to go back

[01:27:53] and I was like oh that's uh that's a black joke that's uh that's a that's a penis joke

[01:28:00] this metaphor yeah um I love mr trick I'm so sad that he got killed in this episode because I've

[01:28:09] always been a huge fan of that character I think he's hilarious and I think he brought a quality to

[01:28:17] the universe the Buffy universe that nobody else really has this like the way that he's sort of

[01:28:23] pecuniary the way he is you know he's like a deal maker he's like so he's like real in the deal in

[01:28:30] you know he's like oh I got a guy for that and he brings in Ethan Reign and it just um he's so fun

[01:28:38] it would have been so much fun to see the dynamic more between him and Faith and the mayor

[01:28:44] like yeah both working for the mayor yeah competing for his favor or anything like that

[01:28:50] and trying to one up each other like that would have been fun to see it really would have been

[01:28:55] they would have had some good chemistry in that sense and like you know thinking really fantastically

[01:29:02] like if trick had lived into future seasons like seeing him and Spike in the same scenes like oh yeah

[01:29:10] that would have been fire yeah that would have been great I guess they have to kind of make way for

[01:29:16] a new secondary villain for the most part yeah and they needed to you know push Faith

[01:29:24] and the mayor together and that is also a really fantastic scene I

[01:29:31] go

[01:29:40] you sent your boy to kill me that's right I did he's dust I thought he might be

[01:29:48] what with you standing here and all

[01:29:49] I guess that means you have a child opening

[01:30:02] and that's how the episode ends it's such a great cliffhanger because you're like

[01:30:09] really yes you know meanwhile Buffy and Giles are having this conversation where they're like

[01:30:13] maybe there's a way we can save Faith she came back to town with you there's hope

[01:30:18] and it's like yeah no Faith has a whole other thing in mind

[01:30:23] and the the mayor the look on his face when he sees her I have to remember that he has just

[01:30:30] become invincible so he's not afraid of this layer right he's like oh she can't kill me

[01:30:35] this is interesting and when she says you know you have a job opening he just opens the door

[01:30:41] and lets her in and they sort of have this this eye contact moment and I I almost expected him to

[01:30:48] to pull a rick from Casablanca you know like this is the beginning of a beautiful yeah

[01:30:54] you know my my peanut butter your rogue chocolate like two great tastes that go great together

[01:31:00] it's um it's one of my favorite moments in the whole Buffyverse because I didn't see

[01:31:06] it coming no that was not what I thought was gonna happen at all that's what made it so brilliant

[01:31:14] it's they played that perfectly yeah and the chemistry between them is immediate

[01:31:21] and uh well we're gonna get to that in the future there's gonna be lots of really great faith

[01:31:27] and the mayor stuff to talk about yeah I think the mayor is probably one of my most favorite

[01:31:32] villains of the entire series yeah um you know it's his uh he's so sadistic and sociopathic and

[01:31:41] manipulative and evil and in ways that but yet his fact that he's just normal yeah he's just a

[01:31:48] normal person makes it even more scary yeah he's like demon he's not a vampire he's

[01:31:54] he's not a two-dimensional you know character you I mean you know dresses and talks like

[01:32:00] somebody's like dopey uncle and he's cheerful all the time he's always like cracking dumb jokes and

[01:32:08] right it reminds me of uh so I'm at you know for those that don't know I'm staying at my

[01:32:14] parents house right now in Houston and my dad loves watching like leave it to beaver and Andy

[01:32:20] Griffith oh god and that type of voice and like cheerfulness on those shows I see in the mayor

[01:32:29] and he even gets like he's kind of traditional a little old fashioned and he'll he'll make comments

[01:32:34] we'll see in the future that yeah well because he's 150 years old yeah he's still more reserved and so

[01:32:41] now whenever I watch you know my dad has those on them just well it's like the mayor is one of

[01:32:47] the really trying to become a demon what's going on with that word cleaver could totally be a demon

[01:32:55] don't you worry or june um I would watch a robot I would watch a uh Buffy leave it to beaver crossover

[01:33:04] show in a heartbeats it would be amazing kind of like pleasant though yeah but with vampires

[01:33:10] exactly like let's have june and ward get turned into vampires and and see what kind of chaos ensues

[01:33:17] that'd be really fun I would not want to see Andy Griffith turned into a vampire though no that'd

[01:33:23] probably be bad or barney fife that would not be good either that would be sad they would follow that

[01:33:30] I just want to I want to go back just a second to the um to the trick character and um

[01:33:36] you know I think if I had one um large criticism of the series of Buffy as a show in general

[01:33:43] is that it did a very poor job of diversifying its characters and and adding you know adding any

[01:33:52] ethnic perspective um and and then they just layered on even worse with that with you know

[01:33:58] like in that character first of all his name being trick is kind of

[01:34:03] sucks and then he in his death scene he makes a racist joke yep yeah about essentially about

[01:34:10] himself you know which is just it's terrible she refers to him to when she says you know

[01:34:16] she doesn't say you sent your man to kill me she says you sent your boy to kill me oh yeah

[01:34:20] that was just there's just this yeah there's just this cringy didn't age well no and and the

[01:34:27] only other black character correct me if i'm wrong is Kendra right who was a bit of a caricature

[01:34:33] in who was yeah who was very tortumential with the horrible accent yeah they absent and then

[01:34:38] they end up killing her so you know I think they made some improvements when they went when

[01:34:44] the angel show spun off but that was also different producers that was um I can't remember

[01:34:50] the guy who wrote that but he's famous David Greenwald maybe uh or Doug Petrie one of those guys um

[01:34:56] yeah they also added more characters of color um in college a little bit I have a I have a sort of

[01:35:05] silly head canon that helps me deal with the lack of ethnicity in Sunnydale you know Southern

[01:35:11] California one of the most diverse areas of the country right is that is that people of color

[01:35:16] have a very well-tuned radar for um what I what they call white people nonsense so I think that

[01:35:26] so the hell mouth that that black people or Latino people whatever they come to Sunnydale

[01:35:32] and they're like oh no that's some white people nonsense and they know I buy that that's that's

[01:35:38] how I justify it in my head when I'm watching because the more years past the more the lack

[01:35:45] of diversity just like screams out of the TV at me when I'm watching Buffy I'm like oh yeah oh just

[01:35:52] like one Latin character just one can we have one like none there's not really until like season

[01:36:00] six seven seven seven then introduce the the principal yeah and yeah yeah some backs on his

[01:36:07] mother and stuff yeah Robin yeah Robin was I love him that's gonna be fun what's the name of Riley's

[01:36:16] friend um in season four Forrest yeah Forrest yes uh how is an interesting route they went with him too

[01:36:25] there's not enough of of color or other kinds of diversity on the screen you know there's not

[01:36:32] I didn't love what they did with gun and angel either eventually but that's for another day yeah

[01:36:38] that's way that's years from now um uh yeah but my head cannon of of like just people black people

[01:36:48] have come to Sunnydale and been like no this this is not nope to quote uh Jordan Peele nope

[01:36:55] and they're like we're not living here this is not happening you've got to be kidding me

[01:37:02] that checks out uh it doesn't really help with the fact of needing representation on TV but it helps me

[01:37:09] still love a show that I loved you know 25 years ago right um oh that reminds me in a really

[01:37:16] roundabout weird way that today the day we're recording this not the day we're gonna release it

[01:37:21] is Sarah Michelle Geller's birthday so happy birthday to happy birthday our own SMG yeah uh

[01:37:29] very excited for her she's um I can't still can't believe that they have not been able to put together

[01:37:38] any kind of even a one-off movie or a short limited series or you know they just completely

[01:37:47] talk about it yeah I just can't believe it I I think a lot of that has to do with the bad press

[01:37:55] around Joss Whedon and his bad behavior over the years that some of these stars don't want to work

[01:38:02] with him again and so the only way well and he doesn't he own he owns um some aspects of the

[01:38:10] license which is why he was able to go and um do the comic books with Dark Horse um and continue

[01:38:18] into a seventh eighth ninth and I think the tenth maybe season though maybe more I'm not sure

[01:38:23] oh there's more there's at least 12 yeah 12 or 13 um yeah he owns a lot of the rights and

[01:38:32] so he has to be involved or they'd have to buy it out and or he'd have to he'd have to graciously

[01:38:37] just be like a way in the background executive producer and let and not have hands on but I don't

[01:38:44] I don't know if he's that kind of person right he's he's a prolific creator and I think that's so much

[01:38:51] anymore I think he's doing stuff behind the scenes I think he's still working and he's just not

[01:38:57] as public about it because you know there's still Buffy content coming out constantly in

[01:39:02] the comic books yeah he's doing that that's true um you know his brother he did the narrows or not the

[01:39:08] narrows the never's uh for HBO and and that actually was pretty good but it was only half of

[01:39:14] the first season and then they pulled the plug on it because of all this stuff the bad press

[01:39:19] his brother is apparently a good person and does a lot of the writing they seem to have similar

[01:39:26] writing styles um his brother was the showrunner for agents of shield and I really love agents of

[01:39:33] shield I thought it was a great show um but I think there's also I think my impression is

[01:39:40] is that he's also not not really remorseful about it um there was a he did do a recent

[01:39:47] interview was it vanity fair I'm not sure he did a big interview um and it was just

[01:39:54] it was a travesty he just doubled down on stuff and didn't take any responsibility or remorse express

[01:40:01] too much remorse and um as a result I think people were just like yeah just done with him you know what

[01:40:08] I mean they don't want to work with him I um I know that Sarah Michelle Geller has said

[01:40:14] you know I'm very proud of Buffy but I can't wait until my name is no longer linked with

[01:40:21] that man yeah and yeah so you know she'll never come back and do a reboot or you know a sequel

[01:40:30] series or anything like that because she just doesn't want to have anything to do with him

[01:40:34] I think the same is true of most of the stars but they are willing to work with each other

[01:40:40] that's how that Slayer's audiobook got made right it was without Joss Whedon being involved

[01:40:48] and uh they all seem to have a great time working on that and it was some of the original stars

[01:40:53] Charisma Carpenter, James Masters, Juliet Landall. They were also going to reboot it I thought

[01:40:58] wasn't there like a reboot that was coming? There was talk of it and there was fan outcry of like

[01:41:04] don't reboot it do a sequel series like Star Trek the next generation style not yeah um

[01:41:12] there was the same outcry when there was the charmed reboot that just completely

[01:41:16] started a whole new story and everyone's like why would you do that when you already have this family

[01:41:21] and you could just build on it um there's talk again of a charmed reboot but going back to the

[01:41:29] original family and and the original characters it's always starting there's always like a fan

[01:41:34] movement of trying to get it to happen and I don't think that the the appetite for a

[01:41:39] Buffy sequel series or reboot or movie is gonna go away and it doesn't have to even be in the

[01:41:45] same time period like the Slayer universe is rich there's tons of material that there's so much you

[01:41:51] could do well plus they now and I think this is what I the last thing I heard on the reboot idea

[01:41:58] in the present was going to be one of the um not disciples what are that what were they called

[01:42:05] oh the potentials the potentials yeah others once she does that she's created a ton of slayers

[01:42:11] so there's you know an opportunity to to to pick any kind of character and yeah completely

[01:42:18] create a whole new and create a new universe not a new universe but a new story a new world

[01:42:22] new characters in the same universe yeah and you know the older actors could could pop in for

[01:42:28] cameos that would be huge fan service right you would love it but like yeah a 2024 Slayer set in

[01:42:37] I don't know Greece or New York City or you know send them to South Africa it it wouldn't

[01:42:44] anywhere would be good anywhere could have demons anywhere could have a hell mouth that

[01:42:50] the possibilities are literally endless or go back in history and like investigate a slayer from

[01:42:56] you know the 1800s or the 1600s cool I always felt that they missed completely one of the

[01:43:04] greatest possible TV show spin-offs of all time with the faith character oh yeah I mean I would have

[01:43:11] paid money to watch a series after the end of Angel and Buffy where faith like goes across country on

[01:43:18] a motorcycle and countering demons and yeah like a like a kung fu or the hulk right exactly

[01:43:26] yeah and you know she's just trying to redeem herself and basically you know process all that

[01:43:33] she's you know dealing with now and becomes a really good solid heroic slayer that would have

[01:43:39] been great there was also talk around the same time of a Giles spin-off set in England

[01:43:45] and I would have watched the hell out of that too oh yeah I would have loved it I would have

[01:43:50] especially if they had had a lot of flashbacks to his teen years we could have seen Ripper

[01:44:01] oh yeah that would have been good it's time for us to summarize some of the pop culture references

[01:44:09] we heard in the episode so first up we hear Cordelia say check out Giles the next generation

[01:44:18] when she sees Wesley and Star Trek the next generation was a tv series starring Patrick Stewart

[01:44:24] which ran from 1987 to 1994 it was the successor to the original 1960s Star Trek series and it led

[01:44:32] to the movies Star Trek Generations in 1994 Star Trek First Contact in 1996 and Star Trek Insurrection

[01:44:41] in 1998 I think we can all agree that Star Trek Generations was garbage

[01:44:53] it's like a universal truth I mean it's really bad but Star Trek the next generation the tv series

[01:45:00] was incredibly important to me yeah in the late 80s early 90s I have a lot of memories

[01:45:08] of watching it with my two younger brothers and the three of us still have a ton of inside jokes

[01:45:15] that are Star Trek's the next generation based we do a lot of there are four lights like that

[01:45:20] comes up all the time and I just the theme music from Star Trek the next generation my dad used

[01:45:28] to always joke that it was dinner music because the syndicated episodes were on at seven

[01:45:34] and he would my dad loved to linger over a dinner table and we the kids would always excuse ourselves

[01:45:40] so we could go watch Star Trek in the next room and so he'd be like ah there's the dinner music

[01:45:48] so yeah near and dear to my heart another moment Faith says I hope evil takes Mastercard Mastercard

[01:45:55] is one of the major credit card companies they've been around since 1966 as the interbake

[01:46:01] card association they changed their name to Mastercard in the late 70s and I have a Mastercard

[01:46:08] in my wallet right now yeah it's funny because there was a lot of humor I remember growing up

[01:46:16] around Mastercard yeah but never about Visa it's not as funny of a name Mastercard I guess

[01:46:25] Mastercard is funny about it I don't the word master is maybe master yeah room to play there

[01:46:30] but visa is just not funny yeah um the mayor says well this is exciting a slayer up for murder one

[01:46:40] murder one is first-degree murder which in California and most states is defined as murder

[01:46:46] that is intentional or premeditated or that takes place during certain other crimes including

[01:46:51] arson rape or robbery this would make an interesting court case it wasn't premeditated

[01:46:57] nor did Faith intend to kill Finch but she didn't tend to kill so how would the judge jury react to the

[01:47:03] defense that she thought he was a vampire and that it's her duty to kill them if I were a lot

[01:47:10] professor I would have this as a bonus point essay question on a crime law yeah exam or something

[01:47:17] Penny I think you should have taken this one yeah you're the lawyer

[01:47:21] Paris prosecutor oh geez yeah that's right that's right I'm sorry yeah yeah was

[01:47:32] yeah it's fascinating there are so many different aspects of criminal law that

[01:47:37] Buffy would lend itself to be geeked out over it's not enough time though they never went there

[01:47:44] either they never they never really a little bit with the police but they never went to court

[01:47:50] the police of Sunnydale are deeply stupid they could never make a case who would just never stick

[01:47:57] you know I got since we just talked because I just occurred there was one other thing

[01:48:01] from the episode speaking about police you know for all the problems with Josh Whedon he was

[01:48:09] creatively very talented oh yeah you saw in this episode there was a great scene where

[01:48:17] um when the interview was going on between Buffy and the detective and Faith and the detective

[01:48:24] and I just thought it was really creative and really cool how he cut each question

[01:48:30] to the other so he'd ask the question of Buffy but then Faith would answer and then he'd ask

[01:48:35] the question to Faith and then Buffy would answer it was just a really yeah really cool creative

[01:48:41] visual way to do it I agree that was that was some beautiful editing and yeah

[01:48:47] oh man and then of course next up Faith says when referring to Alan the guy I

[01:48:54] offed was no Gandhi I do not want to butcher his real full name but Gandhi most commonly I think

[01:49:02] known as Mahatma Gandhi during this time uh lived from 1869 to 1948 and he was an Indian political

[01:49:10] and spiritual leader regarded as the father of independent India and his title Mahatma means

[01:49:18] great soul he led a life of abstinence and spirituality supported passive resistance as a

[01:49:23] way to end British rule and preach Christian and Muslim ethics along with Hindu he was

[01:49:29] assassinated by a Hindu extremist who objected to his tolerance for Muslims a period of mourning was

[01:49:36] observed by the UN and Gandhi's teachings inspired nonviolent movements all around the globe including

[01:49:43] civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. and his life was ultimately made into a movie

[01:49:48] in 1982 starring Ben Kingsley so Faith is correct Alan was definitely no Gandhi

[01:49:55] that is true oh I'm so glad that I get this one Faith at one point says in response to the detective

[01:50:04] saying that the weapon was made out of wood whoever did it wasn't hip to the bronze age

[01:50:12] it's a great line the bronze age is the period in the development of technology when metals were

[01:50:17] first used regularly in the manufacture of tools and weapons it falls between the stone age

[01:50:22] and the iron age that is such a classic um Joss Whedon type line yeah I mean just uh it's like

[01:50:31] casual quippy teenagery but with knowledge knowledge behind it yeah exactly exactly what

[01:50:40] my line here does what does she say I don't remember who she says this to I think she says

[01:50:45] it to Buffy oh yeah yeah so so Faith says the Buffy little miss goody two shoes the phrase goody

[01:50:53] two shoes comes from the title of a moralistic nursery tale called the history of little goody

[01:50:59] two shoes which is thought to have been written by Oliver Goldsmith and was published in 1765

[01:51:06] by John Newbury goody owned only one shoe when she was given a pair of them she was so pleased

[01:51:12] that she showed them to everybody saying two shoes the phrase along with the phrase goody goody now

[01:51:18] refers to a self-righteous smugly virtuous person but I had no idea what the origin of goody

[01:51:28] I had no idea none this is great that you guys do this this is really cool thanks thanks

[01:51:34] learn a lot yeah I think it's awesome it's hard work finally yeah Buffy you do all the research I can imagine

[01:51:43] we love research we're lawyers so it works out

[01:51:48] I'm allergic to it myself and I don't speak for all lawyers either there are some lawyers that

[01:51:55] absolutely am horror research but finally our last little bit of a reference is from Buffy who

[01:52:02] says less than 24 hours ago you killed a man and now it's all zippity doodah and zippity doodah is an

[01:52:08] exceedingly cheerful song from the 1946 very racist Disney movie song of the south yeah it's really

[01:52:15] hard played at the beginning of splash mountain song of the south because it Disney does not

[01:52:21] like for people to see it it's nope it's pretty uh it's removed from all streaming services and

[01:52:28] yeah yeah I watched it it's basically a minstrel show put on TV put on film yeah it's horrible but

[01:52:34] I did see it in film school when we were talking about sort of the evolution of animation and

[01:52:39] racers in the film it's it's the kind of thing a film student should see but absolutely

[01:52:45] absolutely it's oh my god it's so offensive that it's almost watch it's almost funny again

[01:52:51] it almost goes all the way around to to self parody but not quite she's rock

[01:52:58] and now it's time for trivia when Buffy confronts faith at the docks the ship in the background

[01:53:04] is the tannager this same vessel also featured prominently in the usual suspects the 1995 movie

[01:53:12] I don't think I've ever seen the usual suspects I've heard so many good things about

[01:53:16] it but I don't think I've ever watched it oh it's an enjoyable one

[01:53:22] Wesley is shocked to learn that Cordelia is a student at Sunnydale High

[01:53:26] and not a teacher as he first assumed or hoped yeah since this means that she is a lot younger

[01:53:33] than him in real life chris mccarpenter Cordelia was 28 years old when this scene was filmed oh

[01:53:38] my god and additionally she is only four years younger than uh lexus denizoff the that's the

[01:53:44] guy who plays Wesley in fact in real life uh lexus denizoff would later go on to marry co-star

[01:53:53] allison hannigan willow who was younger than him by eight years that's where I forgot they were married

[01:54:00] yeah you know they're so cute uh and next we have a deleted scene the following conversation

[01:54:06] between angel and faith was cut where angel says you and me faith were a lot of like

[01:54:11] and faith is like well that well you're kind of dead and angel said like I said a lot of like

[01:54:19] and faith says sorry buddy I'm alive and kicking in fact I've got a bodily function that needs

[01:54:24] attending to pretty quick here and angel says you're not alive you're just running afraid

[01:54:30] to feel afraid to be touched and faith says save it for hallmark I have to pee yeah I can see why

[01:54:36] they cut I see why they cut that oh I find this one really fascinating there's a rumor that the

[01:54:42] original storyline for this episode Wesley was supposed to have been killed by faith when she

[01:54:47] escapes from the council's custody we never would have gotten the amazing Wesley arc that we

[01:54:54] are going to get yeah would have been a real tragic loss and and if west if faith had killed

[01:55:01] Wesley yeah no redemption then yeah point of no return I don't know how she would have come back

[01:55:07] from that no I don't think there's any redemption from that at that point you know I wonder if they

[01:55:13] changed it before they started production or if it was still something they were considering

[01:55:19] and if they you know met Alexis Dennis off and they were like let's keep him around he

[01:55:23] makes Giles look extra sexy yeah probably also though was it probably played into their you know

[01:55:33] what where were they going long term with with faith to you know I mean and if they you know

[01:55:39] they wanted to come back to her at all then they couldn't completely you know throw her over the

[01:55:44] edge exactly yeah all right this brings us to the point in the episode where I ask this

[01:55:53] question does it still slay Kirk what do you think oh absolutely absolutely 100%

[01:56:02] absolutely it's in fact this is getting into the best period of Buffy for me you know I mean

[01:56:09] sees it starts with season two obviously is the you know just but it's just really into gear

[01:56:16] by season three and and the introduction of faith and all of this aspect of her and the darkness and

[01:56:22] and I just and Angel having a new mission it just really all worked really really well for me

[01:56:29] I think they were running on full all all cylinders were going at this point the dialogue the characters

[01:56:36] the relationships the storyline it was all just running real smooth right here I think so too

[01:56:42] Kara what do you think yeah I definitely have to agree it definitely still slays

[01:56:49] and it's just like you're saying Kirk this is kind of Buffy at its best and I think it started

[01:56:55] with the last episode where it sets everything up so perfectly for the future and this one

[01:57:02] really kicks it into higher gear and it's hard to think of a storyline that I enjoy better and

[01:57:09] I find more compelling than this faith one that they're setting up what about you Penny

[01:57:17] yeah what do you think Penny we talked about a couple of items that don't age all that well

[01:57:22] mostly the mr trick uh jokes but overall I think it absolutely slays and remains relevant to issues

[01:57:34] that are still going on with people today oh yeah and um I think uh I don't know if we're ever

[01:57:44] going to have a no to that question but um I'm gonna keep asking it well did you skip season one right

[01:57:54] yeah yeah the ones that we may have said would not still slay or episodes that we did not cover

[01:58:00] exactly yeah there you go I mean I think there are some down the road you know in

[01:58:06] in season six um in season even in season five there's one or two um season seven there's a

[01:58:17] there's a number of them in my opinion in season seven but um but yeah here they were they were

[01:58:24] really in their their glory at this point okay so uh I think it's time for us to kick back

[01:58:32] listen to some great music have a blooming onion and a few beers and head over to the bronze

[01:58:38] and find out what our listeners had to say bronze things things of bronze

[01:58:48] first up this week is an email from Becky who sent in her thoughts about this episode she said

[01:58:55] I adore Buffy's sheep PJs I had some like that but they were purple and had cows on them nice

[01:59:02] how could I forget the cordy Wesley stuff the awkwardness during that meeting was cringe worthy

[01:59:08] fates two words jail and bait comment was brilliant the only brilliant thing faith does in this episode

[01:59:15] sadly uh I do love shredding papers mr mayor very therapeutic it's kind of fun uh Eliza does a

[01:59:24] phenomenal job of letting that guilty side of her come through for just a moment then the mass

[01:59:28] slips right back on willow was so cute when Buffy showed up and started crying and willow in her

[01:59:34] adorable sweet willow way was talking about how she was being harsh and unleashed on Buffy love that girl

[01:59:42] I'm so proud of Giles for realizing faith was lying to him another episode shedding

[01:59:47] light on just how special his and Buffy's relationship is that he trusts she wouldn't

[01:59:52] have done that it was a good point and not talk to him about it that was the moment it was

[01:59:58] obvious faith was going down a dark path I agree with that after Buffy didn't tell Giles that Angel

[02:00:05] had returned from the hell dimension I don't think she would ever keep something big from him again

[02:00:12] yeah um let's see it was telling how when faced with hard truths faith tried to use sarcasm and

[02:00:19] sex as a defense mechanism and when that didn't work she was quick to anger she does try that

[02:00:24] with Xander and Angel a bit um the scene with Xander and faith at her tell room was intense

[02:00:32] thank goodness Angel showed up when he did I was so proud of Xander's speech that line you're trying

[02:00:37] to hurt me but right now you need someone by your side was so sweet he could have so easily

[02:00:42] slipped into the usual Xander mode but he stood his ground and stayed strong and tried to help

[02:00:48] her and classic Wesley jumping in and screwing things up though I do wonder if Angel was really

[02:00:55] getting through to faith or was she putting on a show and Mr. Trick always sassy even when dying

[02:01:02] RIP you will be missed her favorite quotes are when Courtney meets Wesley and Courtney says Giles

[02:01:10] the next generation after Wesley screws up and faith escapes Wesley says what can I do I

[02:01:16] want to help and Buffy says still got your ticket back to the mother country

[02:01:21] that's good line oh man said I really enjoyed this episode the writers did a great job showing

[02:01:28] the contrast in Buffy and faith's lives and while Eliza as faith was obviously the main

[02:01:33] focus of the story I want to give credit to how well Allison and Nicholas did their parts were

[02:01:38] so well acted and made them really stand out Bravo to whoever picked the song wish we never

[02:01:43] met by Kathleen Wilhoit such a fitting song for this whole episode the line when I don't get what

[02:01:50] I want the spoil child spoiled child inside breaks down so good fun fact Kathleen played Luke's sister

[02:01:58] on Gilmore girls oh that's fun yeah I know her cool episode that was neat this episode showed how some

[02:02:08] went back into a corner will do anything they can to save themselves and even when surrounded

[02:02:12] by love and understanding it isn't enough to make them want to change have a wonderful week slash

[02:02:18] weekend grr arg thank you Becky thank you back here I love that we have two voicemails from our good friend

[02:02:28] Steve uh one from for last week's episode and one from this week so I'm just gonna play them in a row

[02:02:35] hello still slaying this is Steve and this is gonna be for bad girls I'm sorry I missed the uh

[02:02:41] the deadline I was it's been a crazy couple of weeks me I appreciate being on for the Zepo though

[02:02:46] it was a great episode I'm was glad to be on it and glad to listen to it and uh can't wait to hear

[02:02:51] these next two I'm gonna record bad girls and consequences back to back faith asking

[02:02:58] Bucky about whether she's done it with zander not as hilarious

[02:03:01] had to pause mr trick nobody feel more than Duke what to do that's my kind of dog okay if it

[02:03:08] hasn't been said before I'll say it now Harry Groner is any say his name as the mayor is probably

[02:03:14] one of the best villains in Buffy history and jealous was crude spike has an arc so that's great

[02:03:23] but nobody tops the mayor we do see there's a bit of a change in zander uh from the last

[02:03:30] episode to this one you know he's he's bantering with Cordelia much more uh what's the word I'm thinking of

[02:03:40] anyway it's confidently yeah confidence is evil like several times is evil not in the strictest

[02:03:47] sense I've always loved the and afterwards I get a cookie from Buffy in this win uh Wesley

[02:03:56] Wyndham price you gotta say all three names every time is giving her the plan so the guys

[02:04:02] Buffy goes to the crypt she opens both of the coffins and then she sees that one has the

[02:04:08] amin one doesn't she jumps into the one that doesn't it's pretty smart oh and leaves the one

[02:04:14] that's open with the amyote okay Wesley and Giles together knock yourself out please please

[02:04:22] never call that before she said they were out in magnum force that's a dirty hearing movie

[02:04:29] I love I love Jolli's response to you're not helping yeah I know and I feel sick about it

[02:04:35] as much as I love this scene post Buffy in faith attacking this nest what club is

[02:04:43] is this bouncing at in the middle of the day is the right word I don't know okay I don't

[02:04:49] learn long so Belzar is alive what oh the grossest demon ever in Buffy history

[02:04:57] I just want take half not a good philosophy to live by oh Alan maybe you'd let that vampire in

[02:05:06] you think oh Belzar just said it's been a hundred years since my enemy crippled me and now he's

[02:05:12] on the eve and we know the mayor is coming up close to something important I don't want to

[02:05:17] spoil anything that might be important sorry I've gone long on this one so the big deal about

[02:05:23] this episode obviously is faith kills a person and we're gonna see more of that in the next episode

[02:05:28] I will talk to you then I love Steve's live steves they're so fun all right and here is for

[02:05:37] consequences whoa okay a whole lot more happened at the end of bad girls than I remembered when

[02:05:44] I ended my last voicemail but gosh we're gonna pick up consequences right where we left off

[02:05:51] in a bad place okay I'm not gonna lie it took me like 12 tries to spell consequences correctly

[02:06:00] for this email and no spoilers the Cordelia Wesley uh whatever begins I've talked with

[02:06:11] this before in my defense chris the carpenter the actor is the same age as me so I'm not I don't

[02:06:20] feel like a dirt old man that's not creepy at all well yeah he should because she's in the story

[02:06:28] I can't I can't defend anything oh it was good to have a DRAT Amy reference in there

[02:06:35] whoa okay this is a big deal yeah she never got a vibe off the mayor until now so

[02:06:41] now she knows the mayor's a bit bad oh I just realized that faith's disposition because she just

[02:06:46] said like like she said we are better she she thinks she's above the law okay so it's good

[02:06:54] question by the police they kept their story at least willow kill things with their hands that

[02:07:00] was probably the wrong way to say that oh I remember this when she comes to Giles to confess

[02:07:07] I love this right here that we think that Giles believes faith there's no no amount of evidence

[02:07:15] no no moment where he believed faith at all she has many challenges with lying is not one of them

[02:07:22] whoa that's a lot of numbers that Wesley just dialed to get to Quentin Travers I understand

[02:07:28] overseas is a lot of numbers but gosh yeah sander everybody gets it except you and yeah will

[02:07:35] get it first oh zander going to faith was just a big mistake uh yeah the washers council is going to

[02:07:43] take them away from take faith away from you angel and they have other plans so they're all looking

[02:07:49] for her for faith and Buffy heads of the docks and that's where she is and then of course

[02:07:56] faith is the one that takes out mr trick well okay here we go on to next week thanks Steve

[02:08:05] thanks Steve and if you haven't listened to the episode about the Zeppo I recommend it because

[02:08:10] we had a great time talking about that very fun one to very second imagine so

[02:08:16] unfortunately Cara couldn't be with us that day but uh Steve and Jason and I had a blast yeah

[02:08:24] y'all did a great job I enjoyed listening to that one after the fact for sure thank you

[02:08:30] all right that is the end of the main section of the podcast stay tuned for the watchers diaries

[02:08:35] at the end if you want to hear the spoiler discussion uh if you'd like to join the conversation

[02:08:42] you can find all of our contact information at cat at podcastika.com and show notes for each episode

[02:08:50] also at podcastika.com you'll find links to our social media pages and all our other shows

[02:08:56] I have been really enjoying welcome to the apocalypse and uh it's not like any other

[02:09:04] podcast to ca podcast because it's a narrative about three wacky characters improv comedy in

[02:09:11] their way through the zombie apocalypse it's incredibly silly and I really recommend it

[02:09:19] I guessed it on one episode and I had the time of my life and uh yeah I just want people to listen

[02:09:27] it's great that has been a really fun one to listen to I've still been you know tuning in to

[02:09:34] the coverage of uh the ones who live with Jason and Lucy especially the last couple episodes

[02:09:43] this were intense but I've been enjoying their coverage and all the listener feedback on that one

[02:09:49] for sure I uh I have not been listening to podcasts right now so it's fair that's okay I can't always

[02:09:59] listen I have been watching I've been watching some shows um just recently watched the um

[02:10:05] Apple TV's uh sci-fi constellation oh I haven't started that yeah oh my goodness it looks good

[02:10:12] is trippy and it's awesome I highly recommend it yeah you can enjoy it I will check that out when

[02:10:18] I finish love it man I like it well if all of you listening like what we do please give us a

[02:10:29] five star rating should you feel so inclined a review or like follow and subscribe next time

[02:10:36] we'll be covering season three episode 16 doppel gangland I'm so excited yeah that's one of my

[02:10:42] favorites yeah it's so good thanks everyone and oh oh I don't need to say oh I got it before

[02:10:54] they slept together all right that's the end of the non-spoiler section of the podcast if you

[02:11:02] want to avoid spoilers you should stop listening right about meow like right now right meow right meow

[02:11:10] and now we are on to the watchers diaries where we can talk all the spoilers we want to talk

[02:11:18] it's too bad we can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries I'm sure it's full of fun facts

[02:11:22] to know and tell yeah that's too bad that stuff is private also Giles keeps them in his office

[02:11:31] in his personal files most importantly it would be wrong and we can finally say things like

[02:11:40] it's gonna be so awesome when Wesley and Faith meet up again in season one of Angel and she

[02:11:46] tortures him she has that amazing line where she's like there's four basic types of torture

[02:11:59] sharp blunt hot and loud yeah I think about that all the time because I'm like oh

[02:12:07] there's a lot of kinds of torture but yeah in the moment it is pretty terrifying and she

[02:12:12] she just really goes to town on him it's dark it's really really dark and and and they did such a great

[02:12:21] job too of just portraying his trauma from that as the series went on yeah I mean he really suffered

[02:12:31] from that and carried scars and was damaged by that yeah and the guilt he had he feels a lot

[02:12:40] of guilt about faith going dark in the first place because he was her watcher and he didn't yep

[02:12:46] he didn't save her but it's so beautifully set up their future relationship I mean to the point

[02:12:54] where you know he's the one that goes and breaks her out of jail yeah you know um I mean he doesn't

[02:13:00] break her out she breaks out but he he gets he goes he bites the bullet and he's like she's the

[02:13:05] only one even though I'm terrified of her yeah she's the one that they can do this and and she's

[02:13:10] like I'm not gonna apologize and he's like you don't need to it's we're good like he goes through

[02:13:16] his own darkness journey so by there oh yeah by the time that happens he can relate really relate

[02:13:24] yeah yeah man faith just sets up such excellent conflict and dense storylines with so many different

[02:13:37] characters and I you know I cannot wait to see that whole you know we talk about the beginning

[02:13:43] of angel and faith's friendship and relationship and there's that particular episode on angel

[02:13:50] that crossover where Buffy you know goes to angel and tracks down faith and in that moment

[02:14:00] faith or angel essentially chooses faith to protect faith over Buffy and that was such a huge moment

[02:14:08] and it's still you know when I watched it when I was younger it made me really ragey so I'll be

[02:14:12] curious to see how I react once we get to it it made you really what ragey ragey at at her

[02:14:21] at angel and for choosing a for choosing faith over Buffy but yeah it's the right decision on it

[02:14:28] now I'm like yeah he was right but he he did the right thing faith needed him and Buffy didn't

[02:14:35] and yeah he and Buffy weren't together anymore as a couple in fact she like throws Riley in his

[02:14:41] face on that visit too she's like I someone knew who loves me yeah I think that was a

[02:14:47] necessary a necessary Jesus can I not say necessary good Lord that was twice anyway

[02:14:54] I think that was a necessary moment for Buffy to kind of be put in her place a little bit and be

[02:15:01] reminded that she is no longer you know necessarily priority number one in angel's life

[02:15:09] even though she's still meaningful they will always have something she can't really throw her

[02:15:14] weight around with him in the same way as she used to yeah or take him for granted he's like

[02:15:20] got his own life and she's got her own life it's uh yep it's such a great crossover episode it's

[02:15:26] so good really is absolutely his mission changed you know I mean his initial mission was to

[02:15:33] basically redeem himself by helping her and protecting her and then falls in love with her

[02:15:39] his redemption arc changed now it's about you know helping people who are dealing with the

[02:15:44] same darkness he's had to deal with yeah and um and faith needed that yeah Buffy had so much

[02:15:51] so much support elsewhere you know he knew she would be okay you know yeah it's an amazing

[02:15:57] it's an amazing arc yeah it really is and the relationship we're finally gonna get to go

[02:16:03] into with the mayor and faith it's just so cheeky and and fantastic wholesome in its own weird way

[02:16:15] and well it becomes like a father figure for her yeah and he's always trying to get her to like

[02:16:20] eat better and yeah you know pull your hair back so I could see your pretty face and all these

[02:16:26] very like sort of typical parental feelings for faith and that at the same time he's like go murder

[02:16:35] this person for me and here's a gift of a really big scary knife like their relationship giant

[02:16:42] fantastic apartment yeah that's why I was I found him more scary than any other villains yes

[02:16:49] it's so much scarier when it's kind of subtle and done with a smile on his face yeah it's just

[02:16:56] unsettling cloaked in wholesomeness it's like it's sneaky and like Ted scary yeah like Ted

[02:17:04] Ted is sort of the proto right yeah

[02:17:10] I'm not wired that way yeah once he's invincible and is it Giles that throws a sword at him through him

[02:17:18] and the mayor just like kind of staggers back a little bit and it's like it's this huge inconvenience

[02:17:24] that he has to pull the sword yeah first um angel throws a letter opener at him and it goes

[02:17:30] through his right the hand right that's good and then Giles stabs him because he's being rude to Buffy

[02:17:40] thanks surprise he's invincible I love that scene when the when the mayor is like

[02:17:44] trying to give a lecture to angel and Buffy about their relationship and and he's like you should

[02:17:50] respect your elders and angels like excuse me yeah a lot of years on you like you're not a lot of

[02:17:57] years yeah oh gosh that's good now didn't didn't faith come on to to um spike or was a spike came

[02:18:08] out of faith in season seven uh wasn't there a whole thing there's a yeah rotation yeah um she

[02:18:16] reminds him of how she like sort of came on to him when she was in Buffy's body yeah right right

[02:18:24] and and he's like oh right yeah but by then he is so loyal to Buffy there's no chance he would have

[02:18:32] slept with them season seven spike just it's a weird season all around yeah well there are

[02:18:42] certain aspects that I will never forgive them for but overall I agree I agree you know I mean the

[02:18:50] idea that he voluntarily goes and gets a soul just so that he can give you know be for her what he

[02:18:59] wants to be you know and and uh make himself whole I mean when angel didn't have a choice in

[02:19:06] that yeah and he later on angel he's gonna lords it over angel he's like oh yes

[02:19:14] he's petty he's petty and he hates angel some of my favorite scenes are that last season of angel

[02:19:21] between spike and angel and how they just they just do not like each other and it's never stopped

[02:19:28] being funny well and that's one of the best intros to the way that spike you know dying on

[02:19:33] says we're in the spoiler section dying on Buffy thinking he's like he's making this huge sacrifice

[02:19:39] and then he's in LA right with angel but but it's also they're very much like brothers yeah they

[02:19:51] understand each other they've been through so much together they've been immortal enemies they've

[02:19:57] been teammates they've lived love died you know whatever together and they've been through this

[02:20:02] since the beginning and angel did such a great job the series of giving us that flat those flashbacks

[02:20:08] and those stories from the past that gave those are so much more depth and richness to the to the

[02:20:15] present storylines you know yeah characters I just loved it I can't I'm so excited to watch ahead

[02:20:22] it's I won't do it don't watch ahead don't watch ahead I won't but I'm so excited to that point

[02:20:30] all right I think that's it that's the complete end of our show thanks everybody for listening

[02:20:36] and until next time I'm Penny I'm Kirk and I appreciate being on thank you so much I really

[02:20:43] love Buffy and I really love the opportunity to come on and talk with you guys you're

[02:20:47] wonderful you this has been a real thrill and a lot of fun well you'll have to come back for sure

[02:20:53] I'd love to it was great to have you and as always I'm Kara keep playing

[02:21:17] yay