31: “Enemies” (BTVS S3E17)

[00:00:00] Can't be killed, but you don't like germs.

[00:00:09] Yeah awful things unsanitary, but my question is now the faith has brought you back

[00:00:15] What are your intentions? Well G sir I thought I'd find that slayer that's giving you so much trouble and torture

[00:00:22] maim

[00:00:25] Fine, you know it's nice to see you know one of those slacker types running around town today

[00:00:33] Torture Buffy killingers fine just make it a slow one my favorite kind wonderful wonderful

[00:00:39] We don't want a replacement slayer anytime soon. They can't all turn out like my girl faith

[00:00:45] Have fun

[00:00:47] Hello everybody welcome to still slaying a Buffy-verse podcast I'm Penny and I'm Randy and I'm Kara

[00:01:17] This episode we're gonna be discussing season three episodes 17 enemies

[00:01:23] Directed by David Grossman and written by Douglas Petrie the original air date for this one is March

[00:01:29] Would be helpful if I put the day in there

[00:01:32] It was March 16th

[00:01:35] I'm gonna say that one line again the original air date for this one is

[00:01:40] March 16th

[00:01:42] 1999 so almost St. Patrick's Day

[00:01:45] Some alternative titles in other languages for this episode were dangerous games in German all against all in Italian and

[00:01:55] treason in French

[00:01:57] I love how dramatic the French yeah

[00:02:01] Fantastic, so that third voice you're hearing is Randy Randy guested in season two welcome back to

[00:02:13] We've been plugging Randy's other podcast welcome to the apocalypse quite a bit. This is true

[00:02:20] Maybe after hearing how brilliant and hilarious he is today all of you will go over and download the entire

[00:02:28] Welcome to the apocalypse uvra

[00:02:30] And of course there's been an amazing

[00:02:34] Special guest who has popped on there

[00:02:36] At least one so I won't throw out any spoilers here, but Penny has joined us over there. Which has been great

[00:02:43] It's really fun to do. I've never done any kind of improv before and

[00:02:47] I when I listen back to it

[00:02:50] I'm like am I funny or am I just good at setting other people up to be fun

[00:02:57] You're funny I listened to your episode you're funny, but also setting up jokes is incredibly important

[00:03:07] Yes, there are a lot of people who've said the episode you were on is one of their favorites

[00:03:12] Oh, awesome. That's a good sign. That's fantastic

[00:03:16] I

[00:03:17] Enjoy listening to all these voices that I already know all come together

[00:03:22] One

[00:03:25] Yeah, yeah, it's good when I lose being like oh that's Jason or oh that's Penny right?

[00:03:32] Yeah, that's good the Jason and Lucy episode was hilarious

[00:03:37] Yeah, a little meta on podcasting. So yeah fantastic

[00:03:43] All right, let's go back to March 16th

[00:03:48] 1999

[00:03:53] I was about to graduate fifth grade

[00:03:56] I was gonna graduate

[00:03:58] Grade oh, you're also baby

[00:04:03] Not gonna make people feel as

[00:04:08] That works let's see oh gosh our

[00:04:12] The number one song in the US at the time was believe by share and this song had a chokehold on me

[00:04:21] I would I don't know why I would do my impression of share repeatedly and

[00:04:27] My mom still if this song comes on she's like turn it off. Yeah

[00:04:34] Yeah

[00:04:35] And then the number one song in the UK was when the going gets tough by boyzone

[00:04:43] No, I'm familiar with that one. I should have listened to it. I meant to

[00:04:51] The bestselling books of the year or sorry not the year this is the month right or the week

[00:04:58] I don't know. Yeah, or the week. Yeah

[00:05:02] Two days before this

[00:05:05] The nonfiction bestselling book was something different. So okay interesting

[00:05:11] They were the testament by John Grisham and

[00:05:14] Monica's story by Andrew Morton finally unseats the greatest generation by Tom Broca in the non-fiction category

[00:05:24] Perfect timing. Yeah at the US box office

[00:05:29] Saving Private Ryan had just brought in 1.8 million. Oh, so actually

[00:05:35] That the number one movie is a movie called eight

[00:05:43] Not remember it. I don't know why yeah, yes

[00:05:47] Looking at it. I was like, yeah that that checks out

[00:05:51] And then for a second I was like Randy just knows how much

[00:05:57] It was a very important week for me as a kid I just I memorized whatever movie made that week

[00:06:05] So yes the US box office number one was eight millimeter

[00:06:10] Number two was saving Private Ryan and number three was the Prince of Egypt

[00:06:15] Wow that movie did really well for a long time. Yeah, yeah

[00:06:26] I'm surprised that you know Prince of Egypt somewhere Southern Baptist

[00:06:33] Family did not make me watch that movie

[00:06:36] But here we go. Yeah

[00:06:38] So during this time the

[00:06:40] 2000 presidential race and Senate races were heating up God that 2000 election season was insane

[00:06:49] Medical remember that yeah

[00:06:52] Medicare reform was the talk of the town and the country was still dealing with processing the Clinton scandal and

[00:06:58] Impeachment trial Hilary was running for Senate in New York, and I was living in New York at the time

[00:07:03] I got to vote for her and I was all excited about that election until later that night when everything turned into just

[00:07:17] Also happening that week on March 16th Sony online entertainment releases the EverQuest game for personal computers in the USA

[00:07:25] And on March 20th, Legoland, California the first Legoland outside of Europe opens in Carlsbad, California

[00:07:32] I have not been Legoland

[00:07:35] No, I also would have assumed that started in the US. I know Lego is a Danish company

[00:07:41] So their first leg was at I know that either I've been to the Lego

[00:07:47] headquarters, there's

[00:07:49] There's a thing called Lego house. That's really close to the Lego land in Denmark and

[00:07:55] Lego house is more of like an interactive museum about the origins of Lego

[00:07:59] But then it's also about like Lego design and where Lego is going if you're ever in Denmark

[00:08:05] It's a haul you have to take a train out into the middle of nowhere

[00:08:08] And then somehow get to Lego house, but it's worth it. It's a really really cool place to they

[00:08:15] Have an exhibit or you can walk barefoot over Lego

[00:08:20] It's just like a bunch of Legos that look like burning coals

[00:08:26] Yeah

[00:08:27] That would be a really funny exhibit and then they could set it up so you get a video of yourself doing it

[00:08:34] They did have an exhibit where you make your own Lego minifigure and

[00:08:41] You know all of us first made them look like ourselves and then you're encouraged to carry your Lego minifigure with you

[00:08:48] through the rest of the museum and

[00:08:50] Like take pictures of it in different

[00:08:53] Okay, now I need to do that. Yeah

[00:08:56] It's really it was a really really cool thing to do

[00:08:59] I would never have heard about it except that I have a friend who had a friend who worked for Lego in Denmark

[00:09:05] And so she was like oh our friend my friend wants us to go visit her while we're in Copenhagen

[00:09:11] So, you know, we took the train out. She picked us up. She had a car

[00:09:14] You know drove us to the Lego house showed us around like it was really really cool

[00:09:19] Nice. Yeah

[00:09:22] Alright, let's get into it with our discussion

[00:09:27] You gotta have faith is what Kara has written here, which is just really

[00:09:32] But not if you're Angel say strong Angel

[00:09:42] I

[00:09:43] Didn't sing one of the other ones that you put on the agenda because yeah, I didn't know the tune

[00:09:49] But this one the bad girls song. Yeah, I know I know George Michael backwards and forwards

[00:09:57] I was a huge George Michael fan

[00:10:00] Before we all knew he was gay. I had a huge crush on him and then after that I was just a fan of his music

[00:10:07] So since Randy is our guest Randy you get to start off the discussion

[00:10:14] All right

[00:10:15] Well, I feel like the last time I was here

[00:10:18] I brought this up as well, but I feel like it's worth continuing this conversation

[00:10:24] The thing that one of the things that stuck out for me in this episode was the creepy

[00:10:30] Undertones of older men and younger women

[00:10:34] Never goes away

[00:10:38] What is it I think I actually recoiled when the mayor said something to faith about like, you know, you should

[00:10:44] Yes, her back. You have such a pretty face. I was like no no no

[00:10:48] Yeah

[00:10:48] See that was like the one thing I didn't find creepy because that was so something a parent would say

[00:10:55] Well, I did think like I think my grandma used to say that to me like get your hair out of your face

[00:10:59] Yeah, yeah

[00:11:02] Diminer yeah and like a feeling of like controlling her and like

[00:11:09] Yeah, there was I mean in

[00:11:12] Mix with everything else it feels icky. Yeah a little bit

[00:11:18] Yeah

[00:11:20] We've got Angel and Buffy which is just the ongoing one

[00:11:24] But then now Angel and Faith a little bit

[00:11:28] Yeah, we've got Wesley and Cordelia

[00:11:33] I feel like Angel and Buffy and Angel and Faith because they're slayers

[00:11:38] I feel like there's like some some weirdness there and they tend to be off on their own

[00:11:43] But like Wesley and Cordelia keep happening in front of other people and other adults

[00:11:50] I feel like somebody needs to shut that down

[00:11:52] Yeah

[00:11:58] Love when you talk Wesley

[00:12:01] Wesley can you say the words jailbait?

[00:12:06] Why me bastard I was like, yeah, Xander that's a fair point. Yeah

[00:12:10] And on that on on that day the words family flimsy excuse were redefined forever

[00:12:19] Cordelia's whole like asking Wesley out to help her with an English paper

[00:12:24] Yeah, which felt also like in like they were giving her oddly older choices in that matter

[00:12:31] Like I don't know what high school student would be like, you know

[00:12:35] I prefer studying at a nice dining establishment. Like I could see her saying something like I

[00:12:42] Mean it would make it worse, but if she was like, oh, I prefer studying in my bedroom

[00:12:46] Or like your place or yeah something there's something weird about like turning it into an

[00:12:55] 25 year old woman. Yes

[00:12:58] It's just she is not giving teen energy

[00:13:03] Yeah, yeah, she certainly doesn't dress like a teenager, right? Yeah, and I do you know Giles seems like he is a

[00:13:13] Little bit like yeah, she's a high schooler which it just it doesn't I don't know

[00:13:18] I feel like maybe at the time it played better as like a joke

[00:13:22] But in retrospect it just feels like nobody's doing what they should be doing in this situation

[00:13:28] Which makes it

[00:13:30] Dole it makes it feel a little off like the more moved from high school you are

[00:13:37] right, I remember even rewatching it in

[00:13:41] College I was just like that's fair like some of my professors are pretty attractive

[00:13:47] I wouldn't do that but still and now I'm just like oh god. Yeah, and we don't it's even more funny because

[00:13:55] Wesley is such a dork and it's like what is corgilia

[00:14:02] Attracted to just his like adult accent

[00:14:06] Right, yeah, yeah

[00:14:08] Shiles is British and has an act like maybe because he's the authority figure that she associates with school and

[00:14:16] Then Wesley comes in but I mean she calls it miles the next generation

[00:14:22] That's right. Yes. Giles is a little older. He's just younger

[00:14:25] Yeah, and is he technically supposed to be in charge like in

[00:14:30] The watchers

[00:14:32] View yeah, so I also wonder if she's attaching herself to like the new authority because that gives her some power as well

[00:14:39] But I think also knowing that it's bothering Xander

[00:14:43] Yeah, big part of it for her. Yep

[00:14:47] Like she's like I think she goes out of her way to be into Wesley in front of Xander like she's like

[00:14:53] I'm just gonna rub it in here a little bit dude that you don't get to be with me anymore

[00:14:58] Because you're

[00:15:00] Yeah, they had to work pretty hard to make Alexis Denesof not hot because he is so good-looking in real life

[00:15:10] And he's not as it's he's not as

[00:15:15] Goofy yeah, which that's and that's not necessarily like because goofy can be attractive

[00:15:20] Yeah, but it's the way he plays it. It's the prim as Wesley. Yeah, that's that's probably what it

[00:15:27] There's just something about it where I'm just like Cordy what like

[00:15:34] What is the appeal here because he's kind of weasley when we first meet him. Oh, yeah

[00:15:40] He's a weenie. I mean to each their own but you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's mysterious

[00:15:48] I'm in Wesley's group. There is only

[00:15:59] There is like that whole scene, you know the opening scene when

[00:16:04] Buffy and Angel come out of that movie which I guess is not a real movie and

[00:16:09] She said what does she say that one line? She's like, do you want to get some hot chocolate or some cold shower?

[00:16:18] And it's just I mean clearly I'm glad they acknowledge it in the show

[00:16:24] Because there is a lot of tension between them. There's been a lot of visible

[00:16:30] Tension between them and it's nice that they finally

[00:16:33] Articulate it. Yeah, and it's just but it still reminded me that Angel was like a 200 something year old

[00:16:41] Yeah, especially when he's like I haven't been to the movies in a long time and it's like how long?

[00:16:46] Like

[00:16:51] Was it when the talkies first started?

[00:16:55] And like why haven't you been to the movies, it's a perfect place to avoid sunlight dude. Yeah, I

[00:17:01] Vampire I would just go and have movie marathons all the time during the day

[00:17:06] It's because Angel doesn't do anything when he's not on screen. He's a Ken. He just like yeah

[00:17:11] When Buffy's not around he's just standing staring at a wall

[00:17:17] Yeah

[00:17:19] Yeah, this Ken's job is mope

[00:17:25] And occasionally creepy watching yeah, I work and I'm mope and I moped while I lurk

[00:17:32] reference watching her sleep or something in this episode to yeah

[00:17:37] He says she's so cute when she's asleep or something

[00:17:41] Right unconscious like oh yeah used to do that too

[00:17:49] That sort of brings up a question

[00:17:51] I'm wondering if you guys have some answers to because I've I have watched the show in its entirety

[00:17:58] But I'm not keeping up with it while you guys are podcasting. I've been reliving it through your podcast

[00:18:04] And I think the question of like what causes Angel to lose his soul

[00:18:09] I feel like in this episode they're really hammering that it's actually sex

[00:18:15] But I don't think it is

[00:18:17] It's now it's it's supposed to be like a true moment of happiness. Yeah, we talked about this that

[00:18:24] Yeah episode where he loses his soul

[00:18:26] He doesn't lose his soul during sex or at the moment right climax

[00:18:30] He loses his soul

[00:18:32] Afterward when Buffy is asleep in his arms and like feels this moment of contentment and her complete trust in him

[00:18:40] That's yeah, that's the moment

[00:18:43] Loving her is clearly not enough. Yeah true moment of happiness

[00:18:49] but because everybody knew that

[00:18:53] They had sex and then he becomes in jealous and loses his soul. It's like that's what

[00:18:59] But I think even Xander was just like makes that gross comment about giving him a happy

[00:19:06] Yeah, I mean because they're they're discussing

[00:19:10] Pretty like directly in this episode that they can't do anything to like satiate their needs

[00:19:17] Yeah, which seems but then they still have like a passion filled happy kiss and I'm like that's not enough

[00:19:25] If they never let themselves

[00:19:28] end of corny go into, you know the

[00:19:32] Physical expression of love if they don't give in to that aspect of their relationship

[00:19:39] Maybe Angel doesn't have that true moment of right. He's still holding back and yeah

[00:19:46] Yeah

[00:19:46] And as long as he is sort of conscious at the moment that he can't be truly happy

[00:19:53] Then he can always keep himself away from it the problem that it stay tortured when they had sex was that he

[00:20:01] afterward really did relax and feed him

[00:20:05] Content also, he didn't know about the the catch to the curse

[00:20:09] So he wasn't able to like shield himself

[00:20:11] But I don't think that if faith had managed to seduce him that

[00:20:16] Lost his soul, but it's super creepy for the mayor to be like encouraging her

[00:20:24] Sex with Angel like even if you no matter which way you look at it if you look at his kind of fatherly role that he

[00:20:34] Grows into with her

[00:20:36] It's like at a girl like go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and again

[00:20:41] It's like they're literally he's it's implied that he's a very old person as well

[00:20:46] So it's like these like couple hundred year old guys being like go get them

[00:20:52] Go have sex with a different old man like yeah, and then tell me about it like

[00:20:59] How much of it is

[00:21:03] Intended in the script or in their portrayal because Eliza douchecue is just such a

[00:21:11] like

[00:21:13] Sexy person she has chemistry with a fence post so I can't tell if I'm reading more into it when she's with the mayor

[00:21:22] but I do think she kind of

[00:21:24] Because of her character faith seems to be used to you know

[00:21:28] either using men or using her body to try to get what she wants and

[00:21:32] We see her in the last episode kind of bring out that

[00:21:36] flirtation when she calls the mayor sugar daddy

[00:21:39] But it's interesting like once you

[00:21:44] Take even a second to think critically about what's going on. It just makes it so icky

[00:21:51] Yeah, I think this episode is pivotal for their relationship because I think in the beginning

[00:21:57] She's still in a place of like this is my boss and I might have to manipulate him

[00:22:03] To get what I want and I think by the end when they have the miniature golf conversation

[00:22:09] That she is like she's starting to accept him

[00:22:14] In a different way as a father figure. I think this is the episode where that shifts

[00:22:19] I think he was always gonna be paternal to her. I don't think he has

[00:22:24] Sexual desires anymore. I don't think that's part of who he is

[00:22:27] Oh, yeah, and so his like wholesome, you know, I love Cub scouts even though I'm gonna eat them routine is

[00:22:35] Is static across the board and it's when faith starts to accept it from him that they develop this love

[00:22:42] But when she's still trying to like flirt with him and stuff. He's he's Arn's lengthing her

[00:22:47] He's like nope. We're not gonna do that. Yeah, I don't think that that later in the season

[00:22:52] He would have sent her to have sex with Angel. I think his

[00:22:55] Desire to protect her is starting in this episode

[00:22:59] That's true because he makes that comment that is like

[00:23:03] pretty

[00:23:05] Threatening when he's like, you know, if you fail me and it just kind of trails off

[00:23:10] He's like well replacing mr. Trick was hard enough, but yeah, that is

[00:23:15] intense so by the end of this episode and into the next few his

[00:23:22] Attachment to her definitely grows. He sees her in a different light, which is good for faith

[00:23:29] Yeah, that's bad for everybody else around. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the father figure slash Giles that she needed

[00:23:37] She just got from the wrong person. Yeah, yeah

[00:23:41] Yes, yeah, since we're talking about their relationship. I want to play a clip

[00:23:46] That I think is hilarious

[00:23:48] You know what I wish I

[00:23:51] Wish you'd pull your hair back. I know I know fashion isn't exactly my thing

[00:23:55] But gosh darn it, you know, you've got such a nice face. I can't understand why you hide it

[00:24:01] Yeah

[00:24:03] sure

[00:24:05] Whatever

[00:24:06] It's just a matter of time before this demon guy is gonna spill then Buffy and the super friends are gonna you worry too much for a

[00:24:12] Girl your age that's unnecessary stress. Luckily. I've got just the thing

[00:24:17] He has a carafe of milk on his sideboard, which is

[00:24:24] That is so gorgeous

[00:24:26] Yeah

[00:24:27] Now first you load up on calcium

[00:24:30] Then find this demon kill the heck out and bring the books to me

[00:24:34] And if Buffy gets to him first

[00:24:38] Oh, well

[00:24:41] Frankly, I don't like to think about that. I like good positive up thoughts if you failed me in that way

[00:24:47] Well, you know replacing mr. Trick was sure enough

[00:24:51] Come on. Don't worry drink up

[00:24:54] There's nothing uncool about healthy teeth and bones

[00:24:58] It's the constant mixture little chuckle and where he's like find that demon kill the heck out of them

[00:25:05] And he's like goofy

[00:25:08] avuncular voice it's

[00:25:10] at the mix of violence and

[00:25:13] Wholesome is leave it to beaver. Yeah, yeah, like I hear Ward Cleaver in there

[00:25:20] Yeah, a little bit and then he just says something kind of unhinged and sinister at the same time

[00:25:27] Like the line he says where you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat

[00:25:31] Which I have heard like my grandparents say so many times and then he throws in and I happen to know that's actually true

[00:25:38] And you're like oh

[00:25:42] Yeah, it's yeah a good level of off-putting but like

[00:25:48] Delivered in a nice package so you can in your own mind be like no, I mean the way he said it

[00:25:54] Okay, right?

[00:25:57] Brilliant play. Yeah, I just leave him with the room

[00:26:01] I mean, I know they're not going this way

[00:26:04] But he that type of like interaction what somebody allows you to be like oh no no I was I was kidding

[00:26:11] They took it too seriously. Yep

[00:26:14] He is a very good little manipulator. I mean he's a politician. Yeah, so that makes sense, but

[00:26:22] He just I don't know. It's so this season is so well written

[00:26:29] Because it makes so much sense that faith would

[00:26:33] Fall for this and that she would become attached to him once he starts to play that parental role and

[00:26:41] That mentor role that she so desperately wants to be

[00:26:46] You know like Buffy to a certain extent and wants to be the favorite

[00:26:50] But she can never surpass Buffy in that way, especially in Giles's eyes

[00:26:54] And so now she has this

[00:26:57] Accepting figure and we hear a little bit more about her mom and her child in this episode and it was

[00:27:04] Rough so it just it comes together very nicely

[00:27:09] Story-wise and then there's just a basis in reality to it that makes it so much more impactful

[00:27:17] because

[00:27:19] Everybody's just so three dimensional

[00:27:22] Yeah, and fleshed out and it's at the same time that

[00:27:26] Be partly because of the mayor. She's got this solid division with all of the people who were her support

[00:27:34] She's

[00:27:35] He is like set her up in a way to fully isolate herself from them

[00:27:40] So that he is now all that she has but he's also giving her what she wants

[00:27:44] So it's the start of a very abusive relationship. Yeah, and the toxic positivity

[00:27:50] Is a real trigger for me

[00:27:52] I really I hate that like good vibes only and only have positive thoughts and all that stuff because it's so often used in

[00:28:00] Our society to shut down truth

[00:28:04] Right, it's like don't don't say negative stuff and it's like but that happened

[00:28:09] What yeah, right?

[00:28:10] The fact that it's negative is actually kind of your fault like

[00:28:16] Yeah, yeah

[00:28:17] It's like people who who don't watch the news because they don't want to know bad news and it's like well

[00:28:23] Then you're

[00:28:24] Surrendering your political power because you don't know what's going on. Yeah

[00:28:28] Yeah, oh another bad thing we need to discuss is his serving of room temperature milk. Yeah

[00:28:38] It's so gross

[00:28:41] Why have a carafe of milk on your

[00:28:45] In your office lines of lawyers like have liquor

[00:28:49] Yeah, and it's funny that milk instead of liquor

[00:28:52] But like they could have given him a mini bridge or something

[00:28:55] I I really think that's what it was. It was something in the writer's room being like, oh, you know

[00:29:01] Which could he have instead of like whiskey or yeah

[00:29:06] Mayor have and what's more wholesome than a glass of milk? Yeah

[00:29:12] But at least pull it out of a thing of ice or something

[00:29:16] Like instead of like a champagne chiller. Yeah

[00:29:20] A milk and I I get that they were making a joke on the like stereotypical like

[00:29:26] Right to canter but they could have made a different joke with the little tiny cartons of milk that you get when you're an elementary

[00:29:33] Yeah, yep. He like opens it for him puts a straw

[00:29:37] Yeah, like he's like funny at the same time asking

[00:29:41] Yeah, he's at the same time asking her to do these terrible adult things

[00:29:45] But then treating her like a child and that that combo is really interesting and creepy and

[00:29:52] menacing and

[00:29:54] but yeah, the the crap because the milk is so odd that I

[00:29:59] Was in my head. I was like, oh wait, is there something about the milk?

[00:30:02] Because it's just like it stands out so much. I was like

[00:30:06] Does something happen if somebody drinks it and I don't think that's what happens at all

[00:30:11] Like a symbol of wholesome side. Yeah, I remember thinking I was like is it is it regular milk?

[00:30:18] Yeah, is it like from something like a demon's milk?

[00:30:26] Venom if they had been made now they might have made it blue milk just to do a little like Star Wars

[00:30:33] Maybe that's why I had this thought this time since yesterday was May the fourth. Oh, yeah

[00:30:44] Alien milk

[00:30:47] Like room temperature anyway, huh, I can't think about it anymore

[00:30:54] Most disgusting things I could imagine it puts hair on your thorax

[00:31:04] Great scene between the two of them and

[00:31:07] And you can see that that she is still sort of not buying his stick, right? She's like, okay, whatever

[00:31:15] Yeah, and true at the end of the episode. She's like laughing at his dumb dad jokes. So yeah

[00:31:24] There are so many excellent

[00:31:27] Like little one-liners in this episode and little quips

[00:31:31] I had a hard time writing them all down like I started and there's just too many like one of my

[00:31:38] favorite things that

[00:31:41] Giles says he's just like

[00:31:43] Demons after money is like whatever happened to the still being part of a virgin

[00:31:48] Standards and you say this demon wanted cash

[00:31:52] That's very unusual

[00:31:54] Demons after money whatever happened to the still beating heart of a virgin. No one has any standards anymore

[00:32:02] I

[00:32:07] Love it. He is Giles is great

[00:32:09] I think he is there's a part of him that is sort of enjoying being this like elder statesmen

[00:32:16] Set off to the side and watching Wesley flounder trying to leave the group

[00:32:20] I think he finds it really entertaining. It's kind of like I told you so

[00:32:26] Yeah, and it seems like he's got a whole plan going on in the backgrounds that you're not really aware of until the end anyways

[00:32:34] So it does what in retrospect

[00:32:36] You're like, oh, he's just watching all of this and being like everything you're doing is

[00:32:40] Pointless and move. Yeah, I've got this under control already. Yeah, totally

[00:32:46] It's so great. I love snarky Giles almost as much as I love ban candy like

[00:32:52] Semi-ripper yeah

[00:32:56] It shows his intelligence his ability to be

[00:33:00] Funny in that particular way is a thing only really bright people can do

[00:33:06] Yeah, he is very clever and I will say this

[00:33:11] This episode also has one of my favorite parts of the entire series

[00:33:17] when

[00:33:18] we think and

[00:33:20] jealous is back and

[00:33:21] Xander is like

[00:33:23] Like they see him on the street

[00:33:26] Hey like talking and Angel just halls off and

[00:33:32] Bugs me and knowing that he did that as Angel

[00:33:37] So much better. It's so funny and you know that like

[00:33:43] Angel is

[00:33:45] Annoyed by Xander the same way everyone is and yeah, usually just is like above it all

[00:33:51] So satisfied but he had the opportunity and he took it

[00:33:56] Which is yeah, it's funny to be like well literally the first opportunity he got he did so it's like how much has he been holding back?

[00:34:04] Yeah, just going off on him beautiful. He and faith do not break stride

[00:34:09] Like he just right and it's to the side and Xander is completely knocked out and they just keep walking without a hitch

[00:34:18] And yeah, it's so

[00:34:21] Brings home how much stronger a vampire is than a human

[00:34:26] And doesn't even turn to look like she's like she's written Xander off completely

[00:34:36] Even though she slept with them she's like

[00:34:39] I have I have Angel now. He's way hotter

[00:34:43] Bugs me. I hate

[00:34:46] Watching faith and Angel together. Oh, yeah

[00:34:51] It drives me insane

[00:34:53] It's painful

[00:34:55] it just because they do have you know a certain amount of

[00:35:00] chemistry and

[00:35:01] poor Buffy like everybody can relate to

[00:35:05] Thinking be like, oh am I missing something here? Am I reading too much into this like when she goes and talks to willow after seeing them together

[00:35:14] And I do like how Buffy's like no, you're right faith would never do something like that

[00:35:21] And she's like she would totally do yes

[00:35:24] They totally do that

[00:35:27] Faith was built to do that. She's the do that girl

[00:35:31] Remember comfort here. Please does Angel come up to faith standards for a guy? Let's see is he breathing

[00:35:42] I love that moment is willow is such is being it's another example of willow being just a fantastic friend

[00:35:49] Right, he's like you need to just ask ask him directly

[00:35:52] And I love the line

[00:35:54] I too have known the love of a taciturn man and you have to look at their actions and it's so true like Oz doesn't talk a lot

[00:36:01] Yeah, and Angel doesn't he's not very forthcoming with his emotions, but you know, but she's spot-on about him

[00:36:09] He would not

[00:36:11] Do that to Buffy never go there with faith like he sees right through her

[00:36:16] He empathizes with her to a certain extent, but he knows what she's doing like he's not an idiot

[00:36:22] But Buffy is a teenage girl right you have to remind yourself

[00:36:29] It makes complete sense that this is what she would be getting from that

[00:36:36] Saw did look

[00:36:39] Kind of intimate between the two of them because faith was actively trying to seduce Angel

[00:36:44] So Buffy's instincts were not wrong. It's just that you know her insecurity that

[00:36:51] about Angel

[00:36:53] But then there's also some

[00:36:56] Recontextualizing of that scene at the end when you realize that she was in on the fact that

[00:37:01] Angel was sort of faking to get

[00:37:04] I

[00:37:07] Don't think she was in on it. I don't think she knew it

[00:37:10] Okay, okay

[00:37:11] I think she went and confronted him to talk about it directly and then

[00:37:16] Talked to Giles or something they realized what was going on and they're like well, let's use this to our advantage

[00:37:22] I think about this a lot like what is the timeline of when they knew what and I think they were

[00:37:29] Suspicious about faiths actions, but not certain and

[00:37:33] That that that wizard or whatever that guy is

[00:37:37] Came to Giles and was like hey somebody in this town

[00:37:41] Is trying to hire me to to take a soul away from this guy Angel and Giles was like

[00:37:46] Oh, no, and I was like

[00:37:50] Yeah, they have like an inside person who's gonna help with it and Giles was like alright

[00:37:55] Here's what we're gonna do and they concocted this whole plan

[00:37:58] Yeah, that's how they got confirmation about faiths rule. I don't make sense. Yeah

[00:38:06] This shaman happened to just oh Giles

[00:38:10] To his wife

[00:38:12] That's one of the points I had about this episode in the show in general is the fact that they sometimes treat the monsters and demons as if

[00:38:20] They're like normal like they have day-to-day lives as well

[00:38:23] Yeah, especially the demon that shows up in the beginning and wants to give them the books

[00:38:29] And he just wants money for it because he needs to travel

[00:38:34] It costs money to travel

[00:38:37] Nuts going around punching people. Yeah

[00:38:41] Sorry, I'm a demon so it's okay. Yeah

[00:38:47] Faith has one of her great funny lines cash princess five large for the whole set so you can buy I'm guessing here some skincare products

[00:38:56] And

[00:39:00] Just yeah the normalizing of all of those people and like

[00:39:05] Like as he's trying to pack to leave

[00:39:07] He's got like a fish tank that he wants to take with them

[00:39:10] You're like oh, he has a fish that he cares about and like I did you see a fish in there?

[00:39:15] Not there's something in there. I don't know if it was a fish

[00:39:19] So I do one I was wondering if he was gonna just drink it

[00:39:23] Yeah, and then I was like maybe that's how he

[00:39:27] Reproduces maybe his babies are in there

[00:39:31] It really like it opens up the realm for like

[00:39:35] Wondering what goes on when you're not seeing all of these characters on screen like in order for an entire

[00:39:41] Demonic society to exist there have to be guys like this who aren't just like I want to take over the world because

[00:39:48] Everybody can't take over the world

[00:39:51] Joe yeah, and you know I think the success of it in in this scene in this episode

[00:39:59] Led to so many more

[00:40:01] Seeing demons as people

[00:40:04] Yeah, we get a lot of it in Angel especially

[00:40:07] It's also important in terms of the story and you know faith's

[00:40:13] Story arc because this demon is humanized to us like he's got a personality

[00:40:20] He's got a pet maybe like and

[00:40:24] Watching her kill him feels almost more intense than watching her stab Allen

[00:40:31] Yeah, and in that scene you know she's in the throes of fighting and it's

[00:40:38] Essentially an accident, but she makes an intentional

[00:40:42] Choice this time like this is straight-up murder. Yeah, there's no question about it

[00:40:47] And the fact that we get to know him a little bit more makes us feel that

[00:40:52] Yeah more intensely and I hate that scene. I hate it when she goes

[00:40:57] I don't like rewatching it because it feels more sinister. Yeah, yeah, and we're like, okay

[00:41:04] She's she's almost all the way gone now. Yeah, it's not a cartoony violent scene at all

[00:41:10] It's very premeditated and it's very violent

[00:41:14] Yeah, yep, especially the he starts fighting back a bit like they could have ended with him being stabbed once and that's over

[00:41:21] But that's not real. Yeah. Yeah, so like the fact that she has to do it over and over

[00:41:27] Yeah, yeah, and he doesn't just you know

[00:41:31] Disintegrate before your eyes like a vampire. You can't ask him it feels and the fact that it's a stabbing

[00:41:39] So it's so much more. Yeah

[00:41:41] Personal and up close like that is not an easy

[00:41:45] Yep

[00:41:46] way and the fact that he he didn't put up much of a fight and

[00:41:51] Like I was when he grabs her foot and you hear the the roar that usually here with like a vampire

[00:41:56] I was like, oh, okay. He does put up a fight, but no, that's it. He just like it's not much

[00:42:01] Yeah, yeah

[00:42:03] To transform into a scarier demon, but right, you know, he's just this little guy. He's like a level like

[00:42:10] You know bookish nerdy demon who sells, you know

[00:42:16] Used books which his his attempt to like haggle on the price is pretty funny since

[00:42:23] He's not basing his sale off of the contents of the books. He's basing it off of like the condition

[00:42:29] Oh, yeah, like you you know what's in these right?

[00:42:33] Nobody cares if the pages are a little curled but he thinks that's an important thing in this grand scheme of things

[00:42:40] It makes me think he's a

[00:42:42] He like has like a used book business

[00:42:45] Yeah

[00:42:48] We're selling like encyclopedias or you know, he sells to magicians and wizards and demons like, you know magical tomes

[00:42:56] I

[00:42:57] Did wonder though why he wasn't gonna like drive or take a bus out although this is 99

[00:43:03] So I guess security at airports wouldn't event nearly as intense, but I just imagine he would have a hard time getting on a plane

[00:43:12] Yeah, unless there's some kind of demon airline. Oh

[00:43:16] Yeah

[00:43:17] There you know what there probably

[00:43:20] Yeah for the ones that can't like

[00:43:23] teleport yeah

[00:43:26] But a bus would make more sense because anybody can get on a greyhound and

[00:43:35] Or like he's coming back from comic-con or something right?

[00:43:42] They are in comic-con country, so yeah

[00:43:48] Yeah, I think I pulled us away though from the timeline question. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah

[00:43:55] Yeah, it's unclear when Buffy

[00:43:58] Has the time to you know talk to Giles and form a plan and talk to Angel and like when all that happens

[00:44:05] We don't get to see any of it which is great for the fake out right because I I know that the first time

[00:44:11] I watched this I was like, oh no

[00:44:14] Like yeah, I didn't see that coming and and then they totally snowed me

[00:44:21] When face says what can I say I'm the world's best best actor an angel without like missing a beat just goes second best

[00:44:28] And I was like what yeah, what I was so relieved

[00:44:33] I couldn't quite remember if that's what happened

[00:44:37] But in my mind I kept being like I feel like he's faking this I think he's

[00:44:42] But it was convincing. I was like, alright

[00:44:44] I do I know Angel is probably pops up a couple more times

[00:44:48] So this could be one of them but it was a good twist for sure

[00:44:51] Yeah, fantastic and the light show that they had the shaman guy put on was

[00:44:59] Really good and having faith like throw the blood on him

[00:45:03] They with the white tank top like it it looked awesome

[00:45:07] Like he's like covered in blood with his angelus face

[00:45:10] He grabs her and starts kissing her really passionately. I was like that is awesome and scary

[00:45:17] Yeah, oh my god, I think that's actually the more convincing part is the fact that he kisses faith

[00:45:24] Yeah, like if you just like attack somebody I'd be like guys probably faking but that seems like one of the lines

[00:45:31] He wouldn't have crossed so that made it more convincing and then later when he's kissing faith in front of Buffy and

[00:45:38] Buffy is having the hardest time looking at it Sarah Michelle Geller does a great job of being like

[00:45:45] It's sort of like acting looking away, but also keeping one eye on them and then looking away and how

[00:45:51] Uncomfortable she is and it's a completely different watch when you watch it the second time because the first time you're like

[00:45:57] Oh, this is so painful for her like jealous is back and he's with faith

[00:46:01] She's been betrayed by you know these two important people in her life

[00:46:05] And then the second time you watch it. You're like, oh my god

[00:46:08] She asked him to do this and she's watching it and it's horrible

[00:46:11] There's like a whole at the level of pain going. Yeah

[00:46:14] Oh my god, he just I mean

[00:46:20] They also as she's doing it he it doesn't it's not like it looks like they're not into it or he's not

[00:46:30] So it's just like oh this is the reality hitting of what that happens to look like and then right

[00:46:38] Just I'm not gonna lie though

[00:46:40] I have a lot of satisfaction at the fact that Xander saying I told you so happened to be completely wrong

[00:46:51] What and he was so pleased to be able to say it and then later he has that great line like it's a good

[00:46:59] Makes it so much better

[00:47:02] His animosity toward Angel is a

[00:47:06] Really steady through line on the show like he never really warms up to Angel

[00:47:13] There's like a moment in season four where he's like kind of okay with Angel

[00:47:18] But only because Angel's not gonna stay in town

[00:47:21] right and

[00:47:23] I mean after getting punched by him and then finding out he wasn't yeah, Angelus. He's probably like yeah

[00:47:29] I don't think he likes me either

[00:47:32] We seem to be on the same page about this one thing

[00:47:35] We are not friends

[00:47:40] One of the things I was like in TV shows I really dislike the

[00:47:46] Somebody sees something and they interpret it as something else

[00:47:51] Which we see Buffy seeing Angel and Faith together and I was like

[00:47:55] I really am not a fan of these storylines

[00:47:58] But then when she does talk to Willow and Willow like

[00:48:02] Basically states all the things she states

[00:48:06] That like saved it for me the fact that she was like well

[00:48:09] I think this is going on and Willow wasn't just like no you should break up with him

[00:48:13] She was just like go confront and ask what actually happened. Why are you doing this?

[00:48:18] And it's like thank you somebody in the show

[00:48:21] Yeah, it's real. It's realistic that your friend would be like okay, so when you talk to him about this

[00:48:28] Yeah, what did he say instead of it turning into this?

[00:48:34] sideline of like

[00:48:36] Fireling misunderstanding. Yeah, I agree. That's a it can be a really lazy way to write

[00:48:43] I feel like they use it self-consciously here. They're like let's make a wrong assumption

[00:48:49] Just like it's three's company and then

[00:48:52] Willow will like send her on the right path

[00:48:55] Yeah, and it helps sell the twist later too because you're like oh even Buffy thinks this is something real

[00:49:01] But we don't see the in-between. Yeah, so such great story structure. Yeah

[00:49:08] I'm constantly amazed at this 42 minute show and how much they can pack in an episode

[00:49:17] There's so many things happen and character development happens in these like single sentences

[00:49:25] Characters take a leap or something changes that's important to the overall story and it happens so quickly and so

[00:49:34] densely

[00:49:37] But the show doesn't feel dense

[00:49:40] No, it does feel light like coming into it. You don't yeah, yeah

[00:49:45] You there's so much to unpack but it doesn't feel like you've read a I don't know

[00:49:51] 20,000 page novel or something and it's not like

[00:49:54] You know shows other shows I podcast about

[00:49:57] Like yellow jackets every episode of yellow jackets is like gosh. I gotta sit with that and it's like yeah

[00:50:04] Did I catch everything how many different plot lines are happening and like yeah

[00:50:09] It's an intense show and we've talked about this

[00:50:12] It's written you can the writing is different on shows that are gonna be on streaming because they count on the audience

[00:50:19] Rewinding and rewatching so they

[00:50:22] Be more subtle and they can be more

[00:50:25] packed with

[00:50:26] You know subtext and they could just have more stories going on

[00:50:30] Buffy is from another era and it's it's actually kind of a relief sometimes watching it to prepare for this podcast because yeah

[00:50:39] Yeah, I'm gonna be podcasting about showgun and gosh. It's just dense

[00:50:45] 10 hours of dense

[00:50:48] intense story and

[00:50:51] Prepping for it has been

[00:50:53] Yeah, pretty overwhelming and then I was like oh I could prep for Buffy

[00:50:59] And you're right that we it's not like there's not a lot

[00:51:03] There there's still so much substance to this episode that we learn we learn about

[00:51:09] You know the ascension and what's coming and how it wiped out a whole city at one point in time

[00:51:15] And you know Angel when he's with faith in the mayor's office and he curls that

[00:51:22] Letter opener at him and it goes through his hand. He pulls it out. It's just fine

[00:51:27] Like that's a lot of information that is being thrown at us, but it's so

[00:51:33] Digestible yeah that you hardly notice. I think the episodic

[00:51:39] Structure where there is sort of a single storyline that you can grasp on to for that one episode

[00:51:45] Maybe helps and everything else is just sort of built off of that. Yeah, whereas

[00:51:49] Like if I don't yeah, you just you're not having to think about the last episode

[00:51:53] Unless it gets shown to you basically and then you're like alright that thing

[00:51:57] Yeah, whereas with the streaming shows you have to like maintain a strong memory episode to episode

[00:52:04] Or it might not make sense

[00:52:06] Yeah, and you spend your whole time watching like Game of Thrones. I'd always be like wait. Yeah, who's banner man is that? Oh my god

[00:52:15] Are they related to the other people like you needed like a cheat sheet?

[00:52:20] Yeah, yeah

[00:52:22] me at my like

[00:52:24] Second rewatch through the series maybe into season three to finally feel comfortable knowing people's names

[00:52:31] Yeah, where they were and how they were connected and

[00:52:36] It's refreshing to watch Buffy and get a solid

[00:52:41] intelligent

[00:52:43] Well crafted story that doesn't feel like a chore sometimes to get through. Yeah, it never feels like homework to watch it

[00:52:51] it's always like it's always nice and fun and light and

[00:52:55] And you know when it's this freaking dark

[00:52:58] Yeah, like yeah, and that's why the experiment with Jason where he just watched that one episode out of the middle of nowhere

[00:53:05] And he was still able to like follow it enjoy it understand the characters like it worked

[00:53:11] But yeah, I would never drop someone in the middle of Game of Thrones be like

[00:53:17] Yeah, watch have fun. Watch this. That's that's the red wedding and the reason that you care about these people like I would

[00:53:24] I

[00:53:28] Terrible

[00:53:32] Yeah, how fun figuring this shit out

[00:53:43] Now I kind of want to watch the red wedding I know

[00:53:48] It's a great episode, but you have to have watched everything before it to get there

[00:53:53] I'll just watch season one again

[00:53:57] Yeah, when I reread the Game of Thrones books sometimes when I need a little bit of comfort

[00:54:02] I'll reread a book that I like all that I you know that I've already read and that I like but same

[00:54:07] I only read the aria and Sansa chapters

[00:54:10] I just I just skip through and just read like those two story lines and

[00:54:15] Just skip everything else and I'm

[00:54:18] Like a choose your own adventure

[00:54:25] I'm not gonna lie if I've been having a rough week

[00:54:28] I watch spoiler alert for Game of Thrones if somebody out there still hasn't watched it and cares

[00:54:33] But the episode where Ramsey basically gets torn apart by

[00:54:41] Before yeah, also

[00:54:44] Joffreys demise

[00:54:46] Satisfying one I

[00:54:48] Cheered in that episode like I was watching a World Series game. Yeah

[00:54:56] Anyway, this is not a game of

[00:54:59] But still like I

[00:55:03] Angel at the end of this one too and without getting into spoilers this episode also sets up a lot of really

[00:55:11] Important stuff not just for the end of this season

[00:55:14] But into future seasons and the show angel. Yeah, but when

[00:55:20] Angel asked Buffy

[00:55:23] Are you still my girl and she says always and walks out

[00:55:28] It's supposed to be like on paper that sounds like a nice reassuring

[00:55:32] You know exchange, but when they

[00:55:36] Portray it I was just like oh crap

[00:55:41] The way that he asks and the way that she asks is

[00:55:47] The way she answers it makes it sound like she doesn't have a choice

[00:55:52] Right not like yes, I always love you and but like always. Yeah, we're gonna be stuck in this dynamic forever

[00:56:00] Yeah, yeah

[00:56:04] Poor Buffy. Yeah, she's like I know you did exactly what I asked you to do

[00:56:08] I just need a break like this is all too intense and I'm like good for you like recognizing that because I

[00:56:14] Love that they do that because there's no way

[00:56:18] That Buffy would just be able to snap back into now

[00:56:23] especially

[00:56:24] Knowing that like like watching him and faith together and the things that they're doing are things she

[00:56:32] He and Buffy can't do. Yeah, it's not even like she can go in and be like yes

[00:56:36] But you enjoy this with me more. It's like she just has to let that sit

[00:56:40] So yeah, she would probably need time to herself to

[00:56:45] I don't know why I never even thought about that aspect of it

[00:56:49] Yeah

[00:56:50] Like is when she's straddling him is that in front of Buffy or that happens

[00:56:58] Okay, yeah

[00:56:59] Cuz that part in particular. I'm just like

[00:57:03] Yeah, sorry. Yeah

[00:57:06] Yeah editing but that makes me so ragey

[00:57:11] So before we get too far into

[00:57:14] Angel and faith and what happens with them in front of Buffy

[00:57:17] I want to revisit the first scene when faith goes to Angel and tries to seduce him

[00:57:24] I can be here for you but not like that

[00:57:28] I'm with Buffy

[00:57:30] Buffy. Yeah

[00:57:33] I didn't mean it like that

[00:57:38] Maybe I did

[00:57:40] But I wouldn't press that

[00:57:45] Love her don't you?

[00:57:47] Good for you

[00:57:51] To you lucky

[00:57:56] Friends

[00:57:58] Friends

[00:58:00] Then I'm lucky too. I better go

[00:58:07] Where I need to cool down spend some time alone

[00:58:13] Don't worry about me. You've been a big help just don't somebody cares

[00:58:22] Hey, I know I shouldn't be asking this

[00:58:25] Do you think if things were different that things between you and me be different too? I'll never know

[00:58:33] Right

[00:58:35] How could we?

[00:58:36] Take care of yourself

[00:58:42] Lifetime practice

[00:58:54] I love that scene

[00:58:58] You know watching it

[00:59:00] It feels like there's a lot of sexual tension there to me but listening to it and how breathy

[00:59:08] Both of them are talking in hushed tones. I was like shy listening to this

[00:59:14] like

[00:59:15] intimate and I know that faith is

[00:59:19] doing that

[00:59:20] Into like she is intentionally trying to seduce him and saying things that she thinks will help her get to that point and

[00:59:27] angels not exactly

[00:59:30] You know a loud talker

[00:59:33] It's just

[00:59:35] Yeah, he's on the ball. He shuts her down. Yeah really nicely

[00:59:41] Yeah, he's kind about it

[00:59:43] But you know that whole the conversation like if things were different

[00:59:47] Would we be different and he's like, yeah, we'll never know never know. Yeah, the temp like I'm not playing

[00:59:53] Yeah

[00:59:55] To comfort the person by being like, yeah

[01:00:00] And he's like I can't even entertain it a little bit with her or she won't ever let it go

[01:00:07] Yeah, yeah, I think angel is

[01:00:10] I don't know. I was gonna say a good guy

[01:00:13] That seems to simplify it but

[01:00:16] He is loyal as hell. Yeah, that's you know, he he loves buffy. He's also got

[01:00:23] 200 plus years of quote unquote life experience

[01:00:27] so

[01:00:28] And he's also got a ton of experience with manipulative women right darla and drusilla

[01:00:35] are

[01:00:37] level

[01:00:39] Like faith has nothing

[01:00:42] Yeah

[01:00:43] Drew or darla. Yeah, so it's just like angel

[01:00:48] Padding faith on the head like nice try. No. Yeah, you're literally

[01:00:52] Trying high school tactics on me

[01:00:54] So literally the word loyal reminds me that

[01:00:59] That you know willow calls him vamp willow called him the puppy in in the episode the wish and then in this episode faith compares him to a dog

[01:01:07] Again, she talks about how she wanted a dog when she was a kid

[01:01:11] So she would have something to love and then she like pats angel possessively in front of buffy

[01:01:16] And I was like I wonder how he feels about being compared. Yeah, he's like why do people keep doing this?

[01:01:22] What is it about me?

[01:01:27] He does follow

[01:01:28] Buffy around to quite lurking quite a bit, but I don't think it's like a puppy

[01:01:33] Yeah, or a dog. It's sort of like a creepy uncle. Yeah

[01:01:41] He's a predator

[01:01:43] Yeah, yeah, literally he just happens to fall in love with buffy while he's

[01:01:49] Praying on her when she was 15 when she

[01:01:54] Was sitting there in her little, you know cute outfit. She can't drive yet

[01:01:59] She's waiting for her mom to pick her up and she's got this lollipop

[01:02:02] That will never not be creepy. Yeah. Well when he was turned into a vampire

[01:02:08] Wouldn't somebody her age technically be of marrying age? You know, maybe

[01:02:15] That was never a good thing either

[01:02:17] That's true. So gross

[01:02:20] It's just so fun. I mean I get it kind of but every when you take two seconds to think about it

[01:02:27] It just starts to

[01:02:29] It gets it gets gross. Yeah

[01:02:31] Sometimes I go there in my head and think about it too much and I'm like, oh, he's even grosser than edward on twilight

[01:02:38] Yeah

[01:02:39] Right because at least edward was frozen when he was 17. Yeah, that is one anyway

[01:02:47] Yeah, it's it's still enjoyable and I still it's not like it prevents me from being all in on angel and buffy stuff

[01:02:54] But their relationship playing out I get so I don't know what it's their face acting

[01:03:00] Yeah, because I feel so invested and both of them are so expressive

[01:03:06] That it seems real that it is

[01:03:10] painting them

[01:03:11] to go through this

[01:03:13] and

[01:03:14] I gotta say like

[01:03:16] The dynamics between sarah michelle galler eliza dushku and david boreanna's

[01:03:22] Are addictive to watch. Yeah, they're all so

[01:03:26] Good, I wish we had more of them together. Yeah, there's chemistry in every direction

[01:03:33] Yep, and and when faith kisses buffy on the head. Is it on the head or not on the cheek? And

[01:03:39] No, it's on that. It's on the forehead. Is it on the okay kill me you become me. You're not ready for that

[01:03:45] Yep, I love that

[01:03:48] And how they end up in that symmetrical pose with the weapons it's both of them choosing not to kill the other

[01:03:55] Such beautiful choreography. I love it so much

[01:03:59] Yeah, I think if the show was written now that might have become more of a love triangle

[01:04:04] Yeah, as opposed to yeah, what's going on there even back then there's so much

[01:04:11] Like tension between

[01:04:14] Faith and Buffy and her line to angel. She's like, I'm just keeping her warm for you big guy

[01:04:20] Yeah

[01:04:22] She's flirty with everyone she's

[01:04:26] And you just get the sense that I wouldn't even say faith is bisexual. I would say she's pansexual like

[01:04:33] She's just up for it

[01:04:35] Yeah

[01:04:36] Whatever it is

[01:04:38] Willow says she would be into a fence post or something

[01:04:43] Like she she's she's down. She's yeah

[01:04:48] And uh, and she's young sometimes I it's easy to forget how young she is because she acts so independent and tough

[01:04:55] But I mean she's like 17 or something. Yeah, and there's an element to her

[01:05:02] aggressive sexuality that is naive too

[01:05:06] Yes, and it's um

[01:05:09] It's

[01:05:10] It's shallow too. It's like sex. It's it's all about

[01:05:14] physical attraction and bodies and she doesn't seem to have any idea about

[01:05:20] Any underlying chemistry?

[01:05:23] The the things that that make a relationship the the you know the intellectual connection the emotional connections

[01:05:31] I don't know that she even knows those things happen. I think she thinks it's all sexual

[01:05:35] Which is why she's transactional. Yeah, so impressed by buffy not sleeping with angel because she literally can't

[01:05:42] And sander too. Yeah

[01:05:45] Really? You never know right there like yeah

[01:05:50] And because of her age, she's so confident about everything she's doing too. Yeah, it just yeah

[01:05:55] It takes on another level. It really does make her seem older than she is

[01:05:59] But then you can see through it. I can see it now watching at the age. I am now

[01:06:05] I don't know if I could have watched seen through it the first time I watched it

[01:06:08] I could not because it it reminds me of

[01:06:13] When I watched clueless when I was younger and the way that share and deon

[01:06:19] were talking to

[01:06:21] tie

[01:06:22] and

[01:06:23] When I was young they sounded so you know self-assured in what they were talking about

[01:06:29] And

[01:06:30] Now that I watch it as I'm older. It's so

[01:06:33] Funny because they're so naive

[01:06:36] And I have that same feeling when I watch

[01:06:39] faith and

[01:06:41] It's just and you could never tell it makes me more sympathetic to me. Yeah, never tell her she's being naive, right?

[01:06:49] She would react so badly worldly and know all the things. Yep

[01:06:55] And to some degree she's probably just mimicking what she thinks is that and it's not necessarily her feeling

[01:07:03] It's yeah. Yeah, but also the fact that doesn't seem like she attends classes also seems to make her seem older than the other kids

[01:07:12] Yeah, she lives in a motel and yeah doesn't go to school. So it does make her seem like an adult, but she is not

[01:07:19] Yeah

[01:07:21] The fact that the watchers council doesn't think that they should like

[01:07:26] Have her live with wesley or you know, like they're they're just like, yeah, let let her live in this flee bag hotel

[01:07:33] Where apparently vampires can come in I guess the rule is that

[01:07:40] It's not a home. It's a public accommodation

[01:07:43] I've only

[01:07:44] Make any sense on those rules

[01:07:47] It's also kind of like my lawyer brain takes over

[01:07:51] Technically if somebody broke into her hotel room and stole stuff it would be burglar yet the habitation because that's where

[01:07:59] She's living and like what makes an apartment somebody's home

[01:08:04] You've paid money for that for at least a month. So yeah, how is that different from a motel room that you are staying in long term?

[01:08:12] I think we finally have found the first plot hole in buffy. Yeah

[01:08:18] Yeah, well there's also that

[01:08:21] It's not made sense in season two when when angeles

[01:08:25] Attacks jenny calendar and she's like how did you get in here?

[01:08:28] And he says oh, there's a sign out front that says we welcome all who seek knowledge and i'm like but it's just like

[01:08:34] It's a school

[01:08:35] He's come in there so many times

[01:08:37] Yeah

[01:08:40] Yeah, that is that is odd. That's not a house

[01:08:45] I get it they they did that for the joke and they weren't yeah

[01:08:49] They weren't prepared for the micro reading that we would be doing in the series, you know 25 years later, but

[01:08:56] That's true. It is an inconsistency about the the vampire rules

[01:09:01] Yeah

[01:09:03] There's also got to be a degree of just like it's whatever the vampire believes

[01:09:07] Might affect it so you could you could throw that in there and then maybe the rules don't matter as solidly

[01:09:13] Yeah, it's like the cross thing. We've talked about this. Yeah, there's no reason why that should have any effect at all

[01:09:20] It's like it doesn't only work if the vampire was raised christian like

[01:09:26] What about vampires that are like?

[01:09:29] 2,500 years old and existed before before

[01:09:33] Right. Yeah

[01:09:35] Crosses work on them

[01:09:36] Like I don't get it. Um, and if it's a jewish vampire, do you use a star of david? Like how do you?

[01:09:46] It doesn't it does love that idea. Yeah. Yeah

[01:09:49] You have to have like different religious symbols for each religion just depending on what type of vampire

[01:09:55] Yeah, that should be the necklace everybody instead of just the cross. It's like everything

[01:10:01] Yeah, yeah the coaxing you just put the bumper sticker on and your vampire immune

[01:10:08] Some romantic comedy movie that I saw where there's a guy at a bar and he's trying to pick up women

[01:10:14] And he's using the what's your sign

[01:10:17] Line and the woman whatever sign she says he like goes into his neck and like pulls like sifts through different necklaces

[01:10:25] That sign necklace and he's like

[01:10:30] Yeah, I picture like a slayer carrying a bunch of different religious artifacts and

[01:10:37] Oh the cross isn't working. Are you jewish? Hold on

[01:10:40] David oh that's not working either. How about imagine if they were an atheist?

[01:10:45] Yeah, and the vampire being like you can't ask me that it's 2020. What's going on?

[01:10:52] Yeah, yeah the garlic. I don't know why the

[01:10:55] Works but um

[01:11:00] I

[01:11:05] I'm trying to think like I know I had so many

[01:11:08] Little notes watching this episode because they packed so much into it

[01:11:13] But half of it is just me being like oh that quote was hilarious

[01:11:20] I have a bunch of like favorite little moments

[01:11:24] there's a

[01:11:26] Fashion story to be told in this episode as well

[01:11:29] First of all they put willow in another

[01:11:33] fuzzy sweater

[01:11:35] Similar to what i'm wearing. Yeah

[01:11:38] Yeah, like and it's like urgent orange right? It's like traffic cone orange under

[01:11:45] Overalls so she really is dressed like a toddler. It's ridiculous

[01:11:50] um

[01:11:51] Her her fashion is horrible season three and then in season four it gets both better and worse

[01:11:59] And then in season five, it's like broomstick skirts and

[01:12:04] Six willow outfits are probably my favorite. Yeah, that's probably when her fashion gets the best buffy's fashion is always

[01:12:13] fantastic from this point on like I think that I read somewhere that

[01:12:17] Starting in season three sarah michelle galler started having a lot of influence on the

[01:12:22] Oh, that's cool character. That makes sense. She wanted buffy to be more fashionable and and more interestingly dressed

[01:12:30] um, but faith in that red leather shirt

[01:12:34] That is the sexiest of all sexy outfits

[01:12:37] Even though it's long sleeved. It's buttoned up. You don't see cleavage really but like

[01:12:44] damn girl

[01:12:48] I remember when the mayor was like pull pull your hair out of it. I was like no

[01:12:55] No, no

[01:12:55] Yeah, it looks good all down and loose and stuff leave her

[01:12:59] Also in that scene I was looking again and I was like no you can see all of her face

[01:13:04] It's not like she's got like bangs covering her eye or anything. It's all pulled kind of back

[01:13:10] It's framing her face not covering it

[01:13:13] Yeah, also do we think that red leather shirt is the same as what cordelia was wearing just buttoned up in

[01:13:21] It's similar

[01:13:23] Yeah intro. Yeah, I

[01:13:26] I don't know if it's the same

[01:13:27] I'll have to like go and look at the episode like right next to each other

[01:13:32] And see but they're similar. I think the cordy one same vibe was a little bit

[01:13:38] Like more luxurious looking the faith one looks like it might be fake leather and it's thinner and a little more

[01:13:48] body hugging like I think it's

[01:13:50] It's more of a mall purchase and cordelia's was like a department store designer purchase, but um, for all I know

[01:13:57] It's the exact same shirt

[01:14:00] Curious, yeah, because that's what I thought of the first time I saw faith in that outfit

[01:14:07] Yeah, it was just like oh, she's having her cordy moment. Yeah

[01:14:11] Red leather it looks so good on her. It's unreal

[01:14:16] um Eliza douche coup is

[01:14:19] magnetic and gorgeous and

[01:14:23] I I can't get enough of faith as a character

[01:14:26] I think faith is so deeply interesting and I remember now watching the series live and being like

[01:14:34] Screw Buffy the vampire slayer

[01:14:37] The vampire slayer like I just I she's so entertaining and her darkness is so interesting

[01:14:44] And I identify with her a little bit in having like kind of a crappy childhood and

[01:14:49] and

[01:14:51] And the way that she can't trust people. I'm like, yeah, that's how I was when I was

[01:14:57] 18 like

[01:14:59] I wouldn't have trusted any of these people and I would have been suspicious of their motives and I also

[01:15:04] Would have wanted Buffy's boyfriend like I don't know that she's even all that into angel. She just wants what Buffy has

[01:15:11] Yeah, yeah her insecurities

[01:15:14] and jealousy really when it comes to Buffy seem to

[01:15:19] dominate

[01:15:20] Honestly, she can't escape it because every

[01:15:24] Which way she turns Buffy is doing something a little bit better than her or getting credit for doing something better than her

[01:15:32] Or she has

[01:15:36] Better than anyone what do I hear about everywhere I go?

[01:15:42] So I say I behave I do the good little girl routine and who does everybody think

[01:15:47] Buffy

[01:15:49] That's not my fault

[01:15:50] Everyone always asks why can't you be more like Buffy?

[01:15:54] But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me? No, I didn't

[01:16:01] You get the watcher. You get the mom. You get the little scooby gang. What do I get jack squats?

[01:16:05] It's supposed to be my town

[01:16:07] Faith listen to me why so you can impart some special Buffy wisdom that it do you think you're better than me?

[01:16:13] Do you say it you think you're better than me? I am

[01:16:21] Burn always have been um

[01:16:24] Maybe he didn't notice

[01:16:27] angels with me

[01:16:31] And how'd you get him faith?

[01:16:33] magic

[01:16:35] To cast some sort of spell

[01:16:37] because in the real world

[01:16:39] Angel would never touch you and we both know it

[01:16:47] You had to tie me up to beat me there's a word for people like you faith

[01:16:53] Loser

[01:16:56] Uh-huh, you're just trying to make me mad. So I'll kill you. I'm too smart for that stick around

[01:17:07] She's just like here's a button push. Yeah

[01:17:11] Yeah, I mean

[01:17:13] Gosh the I am better than you line is sort of a watershed moment for Buffy as well because

[01:17:20] She has struggled with feeling competitive with faith. Right. She's like no, I should be be friends with her

[01:17:26] I should mentor her. She needs my help. She needs my support

[01:17:30] And when she wanted to do better than faith on those tests, she was like i'm so shallow

[01:17:34] This isn't and this is a moment of freedom for Buffy to finally be like I am better than you like

[01:17:41] Yeah, yeah

[01:17:42] And she was her

[01:17:44] biggest

[01:17:45] supporter like Buffy stood up for her. She gave her multiple chances

[01:17:50] When everybody else was basically ready to throw in the towel and give up on faith

[01:17:55] and it's

[01:17:57] It's kind of satisfying

[01:17:59] Watching her push those buttons. Yeah, because it's like, you know what?

[01:18:06] You need to let this go like

[01:18:08] Yeah, it's like you are the bigger person here and that

[01:18:13] Moment when she points out that faith had to use magic to get angel

[01:18:20] Just know that that one and it faith tells on herself so much because she's like

[01:18:28] You know Buffy's like I am better than you and faith's like angels with me now and it's like that's not the measure

[01:18:34] Like yeah, that's her response

[01:18:36] But that also makes sense with her childhood trauma and the way that we've seen her seek validation

[01:18:43] It's like your man wants me now

[01:18:46] Therefore

[01:18:47] I'm I'm the winner

[01:18:49] Yeah, I've taken everything from you that means something to you so

[01:18:54] Clearly i'm better and it's like well you cheated to get all of those things as well

[01:18:59] And also like having angel doesn't make you a better person or a better slayer

[01:19:04] Like yeah, it's a false trophy. Also. It she doesn't really have him

[01:19:09] but

[01:19:10] It's not it's not a measure of success that

[01:19:14] somebody wants to

[01:19:16] Like kiss you and sleep with you like that's

[01:19:19] Yeah, and also even if angel wasn't

[01:19:23] Pretending she doesn't have angels. She is in jealous. Yeah, and like very different. That's a very different person and

[01:19:30] I think even she admits like yeah, he'll probably turn on me at some point like yeah, not a win

[01:19:38] Also, what does she mean? Like is she when she says this is this was supposed to be my town

[01:19:44] Do we think she is talking from her perspective coming in like she was ready to

[01:19:49] Run shit basically. Yeah, I don't know because when she did arrive in town

[01:19:56] If she didn't at the time say she was gonna stay she was like

[01:20:00] On an adventure right? She was running away

[01:20:04] And she knew Buffy was there like she knew who Buffy was. Yeah, so I that particular line doesn't really make sense

[01:20:11] But you know, she's a teenager and she was monologuing. She hasn't done it a lot. So

[01:20:16] Yeah, that's fine. And she brings us you know, you got the mom and you got the friends

[01:20:22] And it's like yeah, all those things were available for you to join in on and

[01:20:30] You ruined it and it's a self-fulfilling thing that people who are really messed up do where they're like

[01:20:35] They push people away push them away push them away push them away

[01:20:38] And then the person finally is like, all right, I give up. I'm out and they're like see. Yeah, I knew

[01:20:46] And it's exactly what she's done because I mean willow

[01:20:51] It turned like sort of got soured on faith pretty early on but like zander was all in

[01:20:57] Buffy was super supportive giles was all, you know, he was supportive

[01:21:02] Like yeah, it took faith trying to actually kill zander for him to be like, oh, I was wrong. Yeah

[01:21:08] Like it's just not and I bet you there's still a bit of him. That's like, maybe she's okay

[01:21:14] Yeah, maybe I could save her. No, you can't. Yeah

[01:21:17] I can fix her

[01:21:18] Yeah, no, no

[01:21:21] You never can

[01:21:22] PSA you never can

[01:21:25] It's not possible

[01:21:27] Also, if you save the person you're trying to save fyi

[01:21:31] They're gonna a resent you for having done it and B leave you if they no longer need you to save them

[01:21:37] So it's not worth trying

[01:21:41] Don't do it. Well, that's another thing with faith

[01:21:44] Her reaction to to saying, you know, I have angel now is so teenage

[01:21:50] Yeah, like for these teenage girls to be like, well, I got the man

[01:21:55] I got the guy I could see how that is also

[01:21:59] You know somewhat based in reality the fact that they're that young

[01:22:04] But they're not dealing with very high school things. Yeah, right. This is such an adult

[01:22:11] situation that

[01:22:14] Eventually lead to the end of the world as well

[01:22:17] Yeah, that'll make you grow up pretty fast. I guess in a lot of ways

[01:22:23] Yeah, oh

[01:22:25] But it is so satisfying watch her watching her realize that

[01:22:31] They've tricked her. I have it. Oh, yeah

[01:22:34] The whole time

[01:22:35] Keep dreaming no one can stop the ascension mayors got it wired B

[01:22:39] He built this town for demons to feed on and come graduation day. He's getting paid

[01:22:44] And I'll be sitting at his right hand

[01:22:47] Assuming he has the answer to the transformation. I'm not too clear on that part

[01:22:51] And all your little lame-ass friends are gonna be kibbles and vets

[01:22:55] Think about that when your boyfriend's cutting into you

[01:22:59] I never knew you had so much rage in you

[01:23:02] What can I say?

[01:23:04] The world's best actor

[01:23:07] Second best

[01:23:09] I love that and there's a slow-mo turn

[01:23:17] Graduation day you think we missed anything. I think we know everything she knows

[01:23:24] May I say something

[01:23:29] Psych

[01:23:31] You played me

[01:23:37] I feel like Buffy

[01:23:39] Does know she has a lot of rage

[01:23:41] Yeah, yeah

[01:23:43] But also I like the indignation there of the like how you guys played me. That's how dare you

[01:23:49] Yeah, and it's like yeah, but you were supposed to be doing that. Yeah

[01:23:54] I can't believe you would that's another thing that people who have like borderline personality

[01:23:59] Which I think faith might do is they are absolutely

[01:24:05] Incensed when somebody does to them what they've done to that person

[01:24:09] Like it's like I can't believe you would accuse me of lying and it's like you lie all the time

[01:24:17] You literally have me chained up to a wall and you're talking about killing me

[01:24:22] But yeah, she just said think about that while your boyfriend's cutting into you. Yeah

[01:24:29] That is some twisted

[01:24:31] Yeah, and then she's like, how dare you? Yeah, it's it's

[01:24:36] Maybe I hadn't thought about this before I hadn't said it out loud, but faith might be a borderline

[01:24:42] Yeah

[01:24:43] We'll have to ask sam what she thinks

[01:24:46] as a psychologist because

[01:24:49] Oh, yeah borderline personalities are incredibly hard to deal with and and

[01:24:55] complicated

[01:24:56] Yeah

[01:24:57] And faith is both of those things

[01:25:01] Geez and power so yeah

[01:25:06] All right guys. I think that we have sufficiently

[01:25:10] covered the big reveal of who is our enemy in this episode and enjoyed

[01:25:18] The hijinks that ensued from that

[01:25:21] So let's move on and start talking about some of the pop not pop culture references that we saw in the episode

[01:25:30] Oh man, so first up we've got faith saying

[01:25:34] You know then Buffy and the super friends are gonna before the mayor cuts her off

[01:25:38] And the super friends were a group of cartoon heroes back in the 70s and 80s

[01:25:43] And the cartoon took on a few different formats and it included at different points

[01:25:50] Characters like sewer man wonder woman and wonder dog and the wonder twins

[01:25:56] Oh, yeah, that was always my favorite

[01:25:58] reference in a lot of things form of

[01:26:02] And a water spear

[01:26:05] Shape of an eagle

[01:26:08] Yeah

[01:26:09] Buffy says so ascension possibly not a love in

[01:26:14] A love in was a 1960s hippie phenomenon a gathering to demonstrate mutual love or in protest of inhumane policies

[01:26:25] Faith says I don't want to get all 12 steppy

[01:26:29] 12 step programs which originated with alcoholics anonymous a recovery programs consisting of 12

[01:26:35] Progressive steps towards full recovery. They usually deal with an addiction of some sort

[01:26:42] 12 steppy

[01:26:46] That's fun

[01:26:47] And then when Buffy is talking about faith and she says the girl makes good dough look punctual

[01:26:54] This is a

[01:26:56] reference to waiting for good dough a play by Samuel Beckett first published back in

[01:27:02] 1952 and it consists of conversations between characters Vladimir and

[01:27:08] Estragon who are waiting for the arrival of the mysterious good dough who continually sends word

[01:27:15] That he will appear but never actually does

[01:27:20] The mayor says not that I read much poetry except for those little ones in the reader's digest

[01:27:26] Readers digest is a monthly magazine featuring a wide variety of articles including little jokes quotes and poetry

[01:27:33] You have probably seen readers digest at your doctor's office. They're probably issues from the 80s

[01:27:40] And they're all yellowed and old

[01:27:42] Or in a bathroom. Yeah bit of trivia is probably for our younger millennials or gen z listeners

[01:27:50] If

[01:27:53] Uh

[01:27:54] Faith regarding the ascension says in all your little lame-ass friends are going to be kibbles and bits

[01:28:00] Kibbles and bits is a dog food made by Heinz pet foods. That's right a subsidiary of the same company that makes your favorite ketchup

[01:28:09] Well, I guess Heinz is probably not my favorite ketchup

[01:28:13] Oh bad though. You sure you want to say that live? I know they're listening

[01:28:18] Think of ears everywhere

[01:28:24] Moving on to trivia in enemies Cordelia asks Wesley if he ever thought of doing books on tape

[01:28:31] In real life, chris mccarpenter did the voices for the buffy audiobook immortal

[01:28:35] She also played a major role in the recent slayers a buffy verse story audiobook series with audible

[01:28:42] That's cool that she did the voice. I wonder if they I haven't listened to I'm curious if it was like

[01:28:48] Told from the perspective of Cordelia or they just used charisma. I've listened to some of it. She is um a major character Cordelia

[01:28:57] Yeah

[01:28:58] It's pretty cool

[01:29:01] Uh this conversation between buffy and willow was deleted from the episode enemies

[01:29:06] Buffy I can't stop thinking about that demon

[01:29:09] Willow

[01:29:11] Because of him being chopped up into little bits and all buffy. Yeah, well, let's keep bringing on the visuals

[01:29:18] I

[01:29:19] Can hear that between them perfectly

[01:29:22] Yeah

[01:29:23] um

[01:29:24] Elijah douche coup was committed to doing her own stunts and as much of her own fighting as possible

[01:29:31] And she was quoted saying

[01:29:33] Day one. I did about two punches and I've learned as I go on from the enemies episode with angel

[01:29:38] We did most of our own stunts me and david have a sick love for fighting

[01:29:43] We don't mind coming home with bruises. I love me personally watching the show and my friends knowing it is me

[01:29:50] I always want to do my own stunts and then jeff pruit buffy's stunt coordinator said

[01:29:56] But we let Eliza do some blocking and hitting because she's so enthusiastic

[01:30:00] Before she started the show

[01:30:02] I had her watch bruce lee jackie chan and some old samurai movies to see their expressions when they slam some guy against the wall

[01:30:09] Then we practiced in front of a mirror with some ducking and yelling now. She gets a big kick out of it

[01:30:16] It sounds like they were afraid of her. I know they were like just let her do it. She'll stop hitting us

[01:30:23] A line of west lee's in enemies cut for length was you failed in last night's mission because you lacked faith

[01:30:30] if you had simply

[01:30:32] Lacked faith a pun from me bet you never thought I had the funny in me, eh?

[01:30:38] I'm glad

[01:30:44] Faith was originally supposed to kiss buffy on the lips, which it does feel like there's some passion in that scene

[01:30:51] Yeah, I bet the wb was like

[01:30:54] Let's yeah, they probably filmed it both ways and then

[01:30:57] Yeah save sarah michelle's kissing for uh, cool intentions

[01:31:03] She's just like oh that kiss anyway

[01:31:07] Um when the mayor suggests miniature gulf to take her mind off of her troubles

[01:31:13] Eliza douche coups laughing at the absurdity of it was not scripted

[01:31:18] So that was her genuine reaction. That's

[01:31:23] The shamans spell is an arabic translated to o demon your soul stay no more

[01:31:30] Hmm

[01:31:32] Eliza douche coups

[01:31:34] Recalled that during one take of faith kissing angel. She pierced her tongue on david boreannis' fake vampire teeth

[01:31:43] That was a real kiss then yeah, yeah some intense kissing you just got all the kissing ones randy

[01:31:53] I love this one too so

[01:31:55] So did the voice of the horn demon skyler sound familiar?

[01:32:00] michael menissary who played the demon portrayed Wyatt on the tv series weird science

[01:32:06] Oh, I was wondering who was under the makeup. Yeah

[01:32:10] Makes sense. All right guys

[01:32:12] It's time

[01:32:15] Does it still slay randy you're first

[01:32:18] Yeah, I think it's still slays. I think this is just packed with a lot of like

[01:32:26] Really cool

[01:32:28] kind of hints at lore and

[01:32:30] Like the overall giant story that is the buffy verse. So yeah, it's still slays

[01:32:35] Kara

[01:32:37] I agree. This is such a good episode and it's not one that I

[01:32:42] particularly

[01:32:43] Joy rewatching sometimes just because of the faith and angel stuff, but it has

[01:32:50] Such important developments for the plot and some excellent excellent quippy lines. So

[01:32:57] Definitely still slays

[01:32:59] Well, that's a hat trick because I also agree that it's still slays

[01:33:05] so

[01:33:07] We again find ourselves in complete agreement about

[01:33:12] slayage

[01:33:13] And that's fantastic

[01:33:16] And completely predictable. All right, so

[01:33:20] Now it is time to

[01:33:22] Take a break head over to the bronze get some you know

[01:33:27] near beer

[01:33:28] And need to change look a little more together for the bronze. Yeah

[01:33:33] Listen to someone will sit together with your fuzzy sweaters

[01:33:38] Yeah

[01:33:39] Let's hear what our our listeners had to say

[01:33:44] Bronze things things of bronze

[01:33:48] So first up we have an email from p. Oter and he says dear fellow slayerettes

[01:33:53] I am so excited about enemies that I wrote this feedback two weeks ahead

[01:33:58] I see enemies as part two of consequences and as a pivotal episode in faith journey to the dark side

[01:34:05] Both of these episodes highlight the important aspect of buffy's strength that comes not only from her superhuman abilities

[01:34:11] But most importantly from her very much regular human connections

[01:34:16] Her friend and family network that serves as an emotional support system as well as a powerful strategic asset

[01:34:23] Faith greatly underestimated this aspect while at the same time being constantly envious of buffy's connections and failed

[01:34:30] miserably both here and in consequences

[01:34:34] I'm trying to remember what is the name of this sort of plot device used in this episode

[01:34:38] And I feel like I've seen a similar one somewhere any ideas mystery novels

[01:34:44] I could see right in listeners. Let us know

[01:34:48] Yeah

[01:34:49] It seems to me that the convert the covert operation psych was plotted only between buffy angel and giles

[01:34:57] It's one of the tropes when the main characters don't clue their allies in because as they claim it could make them act unnatural

[01:35:05] I think this act was particularly convincing for zander who received a real punch in the face from angel

[01:35:12] The good bruise. I love that. I think it's safe to assume the line

[01:35:16] That guy just bugs me wasn't entirely alive

[01:35:19] But I have to say I'm not liking the he had it coming excuse for any assault

[01:35:24] You're a better person than I am peo tur because I

[01:35:28] loved it

[01:35:31] Oh

[01:35:32] I think it may have been willow who set the operation psych in motion by being a good friend and urging buffy to talk to angel

[01:35:40] Instead of being dodgy

[01:35:42] I love that now let's write some fan fiction shall we I think the way it all unfolded behind the scenes went something like this

[01:35:50] So buffy urged by willow goes to angel. Thank you willow and randy you can be angel and penny

[01:35:58] You can be buffy. Yay. All right

[01:36:01] See angel angel brooding brooding

[01:36:05] Buffy pink fuzzy sweater

[01:36:08] Oh good

[01:36:12] Buffy I missed you last night

[01:36:15] I saw you with faith. So I bailed

[01:36:20] She came to me for help

[01:36:22] I tried my best to comfort her but it occurred to me

[01:36:25] She had a hidden agenda behind the i'm scared of what I've become act

[01:36:29] She was trying to kiss me only she seemed to be acting it out as if someone had told her to do it

[01:36:35] I think she intended him for me to lose my soul

[01:36:38] But why in the world would she want that to happen and my god

[01:36:42] Why would she think true happiness is just about getting bouncy with a leather wearing mannequin?

[01:36:48] Oh my god parentheses. Yes, buffy would really say that in those exact words

[01:36:58] It really isn't you were the only person who could

[01:37:02] I know we still need to find out what she's up to

[01:37:06] We need giles giles

[01:37:08] I love it in tandem

[01:37:11] Okay

[01:37:13] Had they asked giles about other possible ways of soul extraction that faith might resort to

[01:37:20] Do I get to play giles then? Oh, yeah

[01:37:25] Giles cleaning his glasses I can't do a british accent

[01:37:28] So you guys are gonna have to deal as far as I'm aware there is one way but it requires extremely potent magic

[01:37:34] Fortunately, there is only one sorcerer capable of such a toilsome beat

[01:37:40] A chap who owes me a favor. I shall contact him immediately before faith does

[01:37:46] That's great. Then of course

[01:37:47] The sorcerer tells giles that he was already hired by the mayor to perform a soul removal magic the mayor

[01:37:55] That was the first hint that faith and the mayor were up to something

[01:37:59] I know that the coincidence of contacting the same sorcerer by two different people at the same time has been an issue on various

[01:38:07] Buffyverse forums, but I think the above fan fiction bit makes it seem more plausible

[01:38:13] I enjoy the fact that watching enemies is satisfying not only on the first watch being familiar with true development behind the scenes

[01:38:21] Makes the viewer feel like an insider

[01:38:23] There is a moment when buffy and giles exchange a look that indicates they know something the others don't

[01:38:28] But it can be easily missed on the first watch

[01:38:32] Now it feels like i'm exchanging that look with them

[01:38:35] Side note. I wonder if giles really did introduce the sorcerer to his spouse or was it just a way for him to avoid answering willow's question

[01:38:44] I like it. I demand the backstory for that plotline

[01:38:48] Thanks for yet another episode and I will end with two words that will make all your worries go away

[01:38:55] miniature

[01:38:56] Gulf

[01:38:58] Thanks

[01:39:01] Excellent email

[01:39:03] Please anyone who wants to send in fan fiction we will happily ask

[01:39:07] That's so creative and awesome

[01:39:11] I could not be happier about that

[01:39:14] We have one voicemail from our good friend Steve. It's about doppelganger

[01:39:20] So last week's episode and or two weeks ago because we took a week off. I'll play that now

[01:39:26] Hello, who's still slaying? This is Steve and this is becoming a habit for me missing deadlines and then

[01:39:32] Sending in two in a row. So no live Steve for doppelganger land. I did just watch it and wow

[01:39:38] It's such a funny episode and is it's up there. It's definitely it's hard to pick a top five or top 10

[01:39:45] Buffy episodes because there's so many good ones in there, but this one would definitely be in in the range

[01:39:51] three best moments

[01:39:54] Obviously the little wave

[01:39:56] By willow when she's pretending to be vamp willow and she watches as she waves at spike

[01:40:02] And I realized this on this watch

[01:40:04] She puts her hand like in front of her chest and does it in a way where nobody else will be able to see except

[01:40:10] Oz unless they're looking directly at her which I still don't know why nobody noticed

[01:40:15] But anyway on you eventually figure it out

[01:40:17] but yeah, I know

[01:40:18] The the moments that really is I think those are the best moments for me is

[01:40:24] The vamp willow pretend pretending to be willow and willow

[01:40:28] Pretending to be that when she looks down and goes oh look at those

[01:40:32] You know is great when vamp willow is dealing with cordelia

[01:40:36] And she's in that pink jumper and she's just like oh this is and you just can see

[01:40:42] That she is just completely put off by cordelia and just

[01:40:47] And and cordelia doesn't even notice

[01:40:51] What she is what's going on and eventually lets her out, but let's see that's one two three

[01:40:58] Another best moment

[01:41:00] Had to be zander at the end going yeah, I'm badass like a universe. I'm a badass, right?

[01:41:06] you know, but

[01:41:07] Unfortunately the the fact that vamp willow gets sitting back right at the same the instant when she gets staked is is bad

[01:41:13] And it's Oz the stakes or so okay on to the next episode

[01:41:18] Thanks, Steve

[01:41:20] I do love willows little wave

[01:41:23] Yeah, it is so cute and then Oz has that his whole face lights up. He's like, oh

[01:41:29] She's not dead like I don't know what's happening, but this is good news. Yeah

[01:41:36] Thanks, Steve we'll look forward to your next lives, Steve

[01:41:39] All right, that is the end of the main section of the podcast stay tuned for the watchers diaries if you want to hear the spoilery discussion

[01:41:50] If you'd like to join the conversation

[01:41:52] You can find all our contact information at podcastika.com and in the show notes for each episode

[01:41:58] Also at podcastika.com you'll find links to our social media pages and all our other shows

[01:42:05] We already mentioned a show welcome to the apocalypse

[01:42:09] I've been listening to that one. It's pretty good

[01:42:12] It's really funny and fun. It is a very fun listen

[01:42:17] um

[01:42:18] Look look in the future for coverage of showgun

[01:42:22] That will be coming out on the the cast of the rings feed as well as on house podcastica

[01:42:29] Hmm. I

[01:42:31] am super excited to

[01:42:34] Listen to the episode about fallout that oh, yeah

[01:42:38] Is that just a zed head episode? No, it's on the main feed. It's on the cast of us

[01:42:45] Okay, so last night well not last night yesterday all day

[01:42:51] I was gonna be productive and my internet was out

[01:42:54] But I had happened to download all of fallout for an anticipated trip and so I watched all eight episodes

[01:43:03] And

[01:43:04] it was

[01:43:06] Amazing like I was not expecting to laugh that much. So I am very very excited to listen to podcastica's coverage of that

[01:43:16] Tied me over until yes the last of us comes back

[01:43:20] That's still sitting on my to watch list. Yeah, I definitely want to listen to the coverage

[01:43:26] Both of you will enjoy it. Oh, yeah, I'm excited for it a bit

[01:43:30] If you haven't played the video games, I've watched people play the video games. Yep

[01:43:36] But

[01:43:37] It was oh so good

[01:43:39] Oh, yes

[01:43:40] And if you like what we do give us a five star rating a review or a like follow and

[01:43:47] Subscribe we always appreciate it and tune in next time because we'll be covering season three episode 18 earshot

[01:43:55] Thanks, everyone and oh, I know this it's down by the bus station not the nicest part of town

[01:44:04] Again see no standards

[01:44:07] I mean any self-respecting demon should be living in a pit of filth or a nice crypt

[01:44:12] I

[01:44:14] I love childs in this episode. He's so sassy. It's like demons these days

[01:44:21] All right, that's the end of the non-spoiler section if you want to avoid spoilers you should stop listening to us right now stop

[01:44:30] Okay, I'm still listening. What are you doing? Stop?

[01:44:34] On to the watchers diaries

[01:44:37] spoilery stuff and things

[01:44:40] It's too bad. We can't sneak a look at the watcher diaries. I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell yeah

[01:44:47] That's too bad

[01:44:49] That stuff is private also jiles keeps them in his office and his personal files

[01:44:56] Most importantly

[01:44:57] It would be wrong

[01:44:59] Well, this episode marks the sort of beginning of act three of the whole season right? We're like

[01:45:05] We're in the end game

[01:45:06] Where we know that faith has turned and is aligned with the mayor

[01:45:11] We know that there's something called ascension and that it's going to happen on graduation day

[01:45:16] And it's like now. It's like a race to the end

[01:45:20] Of the season just such an oddly specific date to pick. Yeah, I know

[01:45:26] It's not like oh, it will happen on april the 13th as it has for many eons

[01:45:32] It's like no it will happen on graduation day at this high school

[01:45:36] And I guess he's just a sucker for attention because we know he's got a speech

[01:45:41] He's like how do you well? I mean obviously also needs to feed

[01:45:46] Yes, quickly

[01:45:48] So what better?

[01:45:50] yeah

[01:45:51] captive audience and

[01:45:53] lots of high school kids to eat and

[01:45:57] And so many great moments

[01:46:01] Are to come this season because he's gonna eat snider and it's gonna make me really happy

[01:46:10] Well and the mayor we've already seen in this episode that he

[01:46:16] You know, he had a letter opener go through his hand thrown by a vampire

[01:46:20] So that's a lot of strength and it did nothing. He just pulled it out and everything was fine

[01:46:27] That's anyway, yeah my 12 year old boy brain started giggling

[01:46:33] but

[01:46:35] The scene that I don't know if it's in the next episode or a little bit later

[01:46:39] I think it's later when they throw a sword

[01:46:43] Through him. Oh, we already saw that just did we good lord my

[01:46:46] Well, no the one of the balthasar vampires sliced him his head in half

[01:46:53] Okay, so I think it's I think it's giles. Oh giles. He doesn't throw the sword. He stabs him stabs him

[01:47:00] Yeah, that's right. And the mayor just acts like oh, it's kind of inconvenient and like you ruined my shirt. Yeah

[01:47:08] So it's it's just so good watching him being so sinister as we're figuring out that he is immortal

[01:47:16] and

[01:47:17] This ascension even though they don't know a lot of the

[01:47:20] specifics around it is clearly something that's very destructive and

[01:47:25] Yeah, pretty

[01:47:27] Forboding so knowing what's to come

[01:47:31] It's just so good. And then obviously it sets up

[01:47:35] angel and Buffy kind of

[01:47:38] Going their separate ways

[01:47:41] And angel saying are you still my girl and Buffy says always, you know, it does have a bit of finality

[01:47:49] To it like you talked about it's this

[01:47:52] Inevitability like yeah, of course we're stuck in this but knowing what happens an angel going off to la

[01:48:01] It feels a little

[01:48:03] Yeah, it's it's a foreshadowing moment

[01:48:06] Uh-huh because of course when we were watching this live

[01:48:09] We had no idea there was going to be an angel spin off and that he was going to leave

[01:48:14] Buffy so it just seemed like their relationship had hit this

[01:48:18] Big hurdle not that it was the beginning of the end for them. Yeah

[01:48:23] Yeah, they were gonna get past this we're going too well

[01:48:25] We got to throw in some conflict and tension there

[01:48:29] Yeah, surprise, you know, he's going off and then it sets up brilliantly

[01:48:35] Faith Buffy angels

[01:48:38] Triangle and the struggles that come up as angel gets a little bit closer to faith and

[01:48:44] tries to help her out and

[01:48:46] That instance in angel where he basically picks

[01:48:50] faith momentarily over Buffy

[01:48:54] That oh those those episodes are so

[01:48:58] Good the faith episodes in season four Buffy season

[01:49:03] One or two

[01:49:05] one

[01:49:06] season one of angel one are

[01:49:09] gripping like

[01:49:10] Can't look away

[01:49:13] Fantastic episodes like so it's going to be so fun to cover them. I cannot wait. Oh, yeah

[01:49:18] You guys are gonna do back and forth angel Buffy. Yeah

[01:49:23] I've been thinking about it a lot about how we're gonna cover it

[01:49:26] I think yeah, we'll go back and forth and there's um somewhere on the internet

[01:49:30] There's a list of how to watch Buffy and Angel in perfect chronology

[01:49:34] So it won't be an exact back and forth. There's gonna be a couple of times when we do two of one of the shows in a row

[01:49:40] Yeah, yep

[01:49:42] And I think that'll make it a little bit easier to follow and yeah

[01:49:46] And we'll publish the order that we're gonna do it in we'll put that up on podcastika.com

[01:49:51] So, you know our listeners can follow in the same order

[01:49:54] I think a lot of people are doing randy what you're doing they just listen to us without

[01:49:59] Following along and watching and yeah, that's what I do for rewatch podcast as well

[01:50:03] Like for the walking dead rewatch that they're doing on the cast of us

[01:50:07] I started out following along with them and then I just couldn't wait and I just kept

[01:50:12] Yep

[01:50:14] That's I like

[01:50:16] It's I don't have enough time to rewatch whole shows

[01:50:19] But I do have plenty of podcast listening time

[01:50:21] So it's sort of like I want to rewatch this show. So I'm just gonna relisten to somebody watching the show

[01:50:27] Yeah, exactly

[01:50:29] Yeah

[01:50:30] I have a question. Where do you two listen to podcasts? Like what's your usual podcast listening time?

[01:50:38] Well for me it was while I was bottling

[01:50:43] At greenby, uh, but now it's mostly just in my commute. I haven't found like a good

[01:50:50] Um

[01:50:52] Period at work yet for podcast listening. So I've slowed a little bit

[01:50:56] Yeah, I

[01:50:58] My commute is approximately six minutes. So I don't get a ton of podcast listening in

[01:51:06] But I will make myself if I want to listen to a new podcast episode that I've been looking forward to

[01:51:12] I'll make myself jump on the treadmill

[01:51:14] and

[01:51:15] Listen to it while I walk or something or if I've got a little bit of

[01:51:21] downtime at work

[01:51:23] And mostly honestly, it's when I'm cleaning

[01:51:27] Yeah, I'll have no motivation to clean unless I can put my air pods and and listen to something that distracts me

[01:51:33] While I'm doing what I'm supposed to do

[01:51:36] I used to listen

[01:51:38] Almost entirely on my commute. Um, I had a commute that was

[01:51:43] Depending on traffic anywhere from

[01:51:46] 30 minutes to an hour and a half each way

[01:51:50] and and I

[01:51:51] Was going crazy in the car and it was like, yeah

[01:51:54] Horrible traffic and so I needed I started with comedy podcasts because I was like I need something to like

[01:52:00] Make this bearable and lighten the mood and then I discovered

[01:52:04] A podcast about Battlestar Galactica and that's how I ended up in the whole tv podcast world

[01:52:10] Yeah, and uh, I don't commute anymore. So for a while I was like, oh, I'm not keeping up with my podcasts

[01:52:18] And I have started I listen to them whenever I'm getting ready to go somewhere

[01:52:23] Like I in the shower and like as I'm like, oh, yeah the shower

[01:52:28] I don't know how I forgot that I bought a speaker for the shower specifically

[01:52:33] Yeah

[01:52:35] And I take walks on the beach a lot and a lot of times the podcasts are with me on the beach

[01:52:40] And um sounds nice. It's funny because it feels like I have friends with me like I'm walking on the beach with like

[01:52:46] You know, Jonathan and James from Star Wars. Yeah

[01:52:50] I have to say randy for welcome to the apocalypse. I almost exclusively listened to that with morning coffee

[01:52:57] I like just oh interesting

[01:52:59] I like to sit in a like really close to this wide open window and feel the morning breeze with my coffee and like

[01:53:06] Listen to a podcast. So

[01:53:08] radio show

[01:53:11] I was like when my internet went out. I was listening to the most recent episode Thursday night

[01:53:16] Yeah, you know my internet went out and I was just like I want to be entertained by something

[01:53:22] It's a little story for your ears

[01:53:25] Slip some tea

[01:53:29] Awesome

[01:53:31] All right, that is the complete end of our show

[01:53:34] Everybody thank you so much for listening. We love you. We love having listeners

[01:53:39] Tell your friends tell your enemies. That's a mic for

[01:53:43] Until next time I am penny

[01:53:46] And I'm randy and I'm cara

[01:53:49] Keep playing you played me you played me