9: “Passion” (BTVS S2E17)

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[00:05:40] In my years as watcher, I've buried too many people. anymore. Angel is gone. Nothing's gonna be number one for a while. In the UK, the number one song was Dr. Jones by Aqua. At the box office, Titanic, still number one. Going straight up. And then I looked up, you know, what was on TV opposite Buffy that night and it was a lot morning cartoons like Constantly and we begged and begged and begged and begged my parents to get one and they never did But I did have a school friend who had one so I did get to play with it one time nice I watched a little bit of Daredevil's live the entire hour is on

[00:08:27] YouTube so I'll put that link in the show notes. I feel like I vaguely remember this. I mean commercials probably a big deal back and buy some. Yeah, instead of what is it? And back to the future part two when, you know, Biff has that sports almanac. Yeah, and he makes his fortune betting on sports. really really interesting It's funny, but on top of that there's a lot of interesting, you know political stuff going on in the background And then on February 24th executive privilege was reportedly invoked by Clinton lawyers say the president seeks to shield his top assistance from testifying before the grand jury about White House discussions on in Casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a guest registry. In that case, I pronounce you lucky. Play for free at Luckylandslots.com. in a chapter heading that's after the big stalking discussion so you can just skip it and listen to the rest of the episode. I think that'll be helpful. But it really is impossible to watch this episode

[00:11:03] without thinking of domestic violence and me. I'm calling the police now.

[00:13:40] I haven't been able and Twilight. Right. That's not okay. I was, that could be like a whole point. I was like, stop romanticizing, sneaking into people's houses and watching them sleep. It's not cute. It's not sweet. No. It's romantic. I'm gonna call the police. He's so good at it. He looks so, he's so good looking and he knows it and he uses it. So frickin' scary. I think that's what is the most disturbing

[00:15:02] about Angelus's behavior is how intentional

[00:15:07] and calculated everything is. don't know or seeing someone out in public and making up a relationship and starting to follow that person. But statistically speaking, you know, that's a tiny, tiny, miniscule amount of stalking cases. Right. It's mostly people who have some kind of relationship with the person

[00:16:21] they're stalking, but it's usually not the get any kind of relief from a cop who is an abuser or a stalker because you won't be believed, you won't be taken seriously. And it's something that the media likes to glamorize too, right?

[00:17:40] Like you were saying, like Twilight, he's a creepy movie, single white female, 92, the crush, 93, misery, the bodyguard, 1992, and I cannot stress this enough, so many lifetime movies. Lifetime movies in the 90s were

[00:19:00] these sort of sensationalized like women of stalking. And I mean, I get it. They're making movies. They want them to be sexy. It's why I love like sleeping with the enemy. You have no sympathy for the stalker.

[00:20:20] He has not made to look good by the end of the movie.

[00:20:23] And it's just it was on everyone's minds at the time.

[00:20:26] And the first stalking legislation, California was the first state those things. My favorite part of it is that it didn't just have to do with crime and investigations and punishment, but also social services, funding for organizations that provide shelter for somebody who's being stopped, counseling at local levels, with a focus on services that were directed towards people who

[00:21:42] didn't speak English, Native Americans, you don't have a conviction on your record for even a Class C assault family violence case, you cannot own a gun for five years. What does Class C mean? So Class C in terms of, you know, any sort of inner partner in a relationship violence, convictions or people who have been accused with somebody's puppy, that was so tough. You didn't want to hear about it. Skip it. Skip it. Skip it. It was funny when when Dusilla is carrying around that little fluffy puppy sunshine episode. Yes. She's such a crazy person. I just was like, oh, Angel might nail that to a door.

[00:27:03] Like don't.

[00:27:04] Oh, but of course, Dusilla would enjoy that.

[00:28:08] form of ongoing, I think the CDC described it as ongoing oppression and terrorism that an abuser will use to instill fear in their target, their

[00:28:15] partner. And they'll use different tactics like limiting access to money

[00:28:20] monitoring your communication, monitoring what you know, the link that we can put in our show notes, which is a good resource for people who either want to know more about stocking are involved in a situation that they want help with. There's a list of tactics, which include unwanted following and watching of the victim. So we ominous note that said soon, it's basically like the writers were reading a textbook on stalking and having angel carry out all of these things. And while it's a very compelling, you know, storyline and TV arc, I think it's important to recognize how much of these stringing together poor willows fish and leaving them for her to find. And this is basically the writers also telling all of us, by the way, he is a real threat. And I think there's a JW quote about this episode.

[00:32:23] Angel's not just a little evil.

[00:32:25] He's not a big evil. hard to prove or hard to enforce because a lot of the stocking behaviors, you know, outside of a pattern are completely legal, sending someone an email legal, seeing somebody like going to someone's house and knocking on their door legal, like all these things are legal. It's the pattern that makes it illegal. And the effect on the on the other person. I've had a couple of stalkers in my life. I had

[00:33:43] one in college. This guy Oh, like following me around and like waiting for me when I get off the bus and I was like huh What does he look like and she described him and I was like, what's his name? Did he tell you his name and she said his name and I was like, that guy stalked me three years ago

[00:35:01] That is so creepy

[00:35:02] A friend of mine from law school was there and he was like, ooh two sisters to stalk

[00:36:04] out to a bar and have fun and I'm the one who has to leave and like sit at home afraid.

[00:36:11] It's awful and women have had to go so far as to, you know, go on the run and change their names and live a secret life and, you know, lose touch with their friends and family. It's

[00:36:17] crazy.

[00:36:18] It's tragic.

[00:36:19] Have you ever read Invisible Women by...

[00:37:27] assume taxis are safe. No, at least with Uber, it's easier to figure out who the driver was. And Uber and Lyft have done like background checks and stuff. I have had problems with cab drivers

[00:37:33] where I called the police and they were like, we don't care. Mm hmm.

[00:37:40] And it's like, I was in a car alone with this person. And in one case, he's terrifying. So sorry to start on such a dark note, people in the Buffyverse, but it's an important topic. And I'm sure that we will be talking about other aspects of violence against women in the future. But there's one part that still kind of rubs me the wrong way, you know, poor Willow been

[00:39:02] freaked out and going to sleep over at Buffy's after she sees her even. Yeah, and he like, Yeah. He follows her and watches her, I mean. But I think it's a predator. It ties in kind of nicely with the last episode in the discussion about, you know, the love potion and Zander messing around with, you know, people's feelings and emotions

[00:40:20] and how obsession is very different than love.

[00:40:24] It's not too far off, but obsession is dangerous. are having sex behind Spike's back or I guess not so much behind Spike's back as angels being pretty clear about talking about it. But the way that Drusilla still seems to almost revere angel is just so unsettling and I think

[00:41:40] the way they play it off is pretty intricate and subtle but I just that was Ablest thing you can call a person who's in a wheelchair. Oh, yeah And the joke about bringing him with him next time in case he needs a good parking space. Yeah like oh mean and and inappropriate and and ablest again We don't know if Angelus is also racist because

[00:43:01] There's no people of color in sunny day all right now, right? It's a Southern California city with no

[00:44:04] kind of airplanes it to spike like you would a toddler and she's like yeah like he's a baby. Oh my gosh I don't know how they kept a straight face during that

[00:44:12] part but it it's very you know it's light-hearted and also dark as hell which

[00:44:18] is very enjoyable. Yeah I mean she murdered someone and took their puppy and foreshadowing very much so. And then what was going to happen with Giles at the end of the episode, right? Like when Buffy saw Angel at her house, even though he was like, you know, harassing her mom, she kept her cool. And even Willow was like, you'd be proud of her. She kept her cool. And then Giles just doesn't keep his cool at all. He completely falls for his own passion

[00:46:46] pretty much captures Giles in that moment after he finds Jenny dead in his bed at the hands of Angel and he just does not give a shit.

[00:46:50] Like he's going to go all out to get to Angel and exact his revenge.

[00:46:57] Yeah.

[00:46:58] The look on his face when he's loading up his bag of weapons is just pure determination.

[00:47:06] And he's so gracefully like puts it through the flame, lights it on fire, swings it around his head and swings it at angel, all in sort

[00:48:21] of one graceful motion.

[00:48:23] I was like, ooh, Jaz was sexy.

[00:48:25] Right. Oh, Xander, this is a school library. And Xander, just like deadpan, since when? What are you talking about? I love that line. And then, you know, Giles coming in again, wanting to rescue and like step in with Buffy after Angel has not so kindly informed her mom

[00:49:42] that they had sex.

[00:49:44] I love that moment between him and Willow,

[00:49:47] when she's like, yeah.

[00:49:47] You know, and barely raises her voice. She is respectful and kind to Buffy,

[00:51:01] even while she is letting Buffy know in no uncertain terms

[00:51:05] that she is very upset about the situation. And especially, you know, finding that drawing that Angel has drawn of her, that was one moment where, you know, you feel this kind of protectiveness coming out. It's just like, no, you can't hurt Joyce. This is not okay. Like, I get it. I expect it when it comes to, you know, it's not good, but I expect it when it comes to Buffy and Willow and Jenny calendar and Giles and it was not at all bad or not near as bad as I thought it was going to be. So like I can see myself being like a tight skirt. So her, she's not in like running clothes, but she's still really fast. And Angel is like laughing and smiling.

[00:55:02] He thinks this is like the most fun he's had ever, right?

[00:55:05] She's playing with her.

[00:55:07] Completely, like, I mean, I love my cat, killing is also something that gets me. And I know there was a discussion at some point with JW and some of the other writers about whether or not Angel should have his vampire face on at that point as opposed to his human one. And I think they thought the human aspect of it

[00:56:23] would be too disturbing and that's true, or a couple scenes later where Giles finds Jenny. That scene is beautiful too. Oh my gosh. The swelling opera music and the romantic lighting and the rose petals and the candles. And Giles is like, I'm in for a good night, right? Like, yeah. Look what Jenny did. She like put candles going up the stairs.

[00:57:40] This is so romantic.

[00:57:41] Let me get the wine.

[00:57:42] He's like, smooth down his hair.

[00:57:44] He's so happy.

[00:57:46] And then the impact wouldn't be as significant on the audience. We would not be as afraid of Angel that his record player is on and the record is playing. Yeah We know Angel likes to watch Yeah, so he waited for Giles to get home turn the music on and then receded to go You know to watch Giles get the news and then he went over to watch Buffy get the news because

[01:00:23] That was what he really wanted. He basically loved it right the look on his face

[01:01:22] But, for Rihanna, it's like the look on his face, like the sheer evil glee watching these two women

[01:01:27] break down.

[01:01:28] I'm just like, how does he like get into that mindset?

[01:01:32] Like what was set like that day when he's, you know,

[01:01:37] as a character doing all these horrific things

[01:01:39] and he has to portray just reveling in their grief.

[01:01:45] The laughing and the enjoyment. you know, the gang is talking about what Giles is gonna do next and Xander has this little speech, you know, if then there weren't any bisexual characters on TV. So people had to find it where they, you know, where they could.

[01:04:20] It's called like reading into the text where you know, there was like blockbuster chains, but then there were also like independent video stores. Some of them would have interesting stuff. Or I'd go interlibrary loan. And one time I had to go all the way into New York City and go to the Museum of the Moving Image to see something

[01:05:44] for a paper that I was writing. And the fact that now I'm a nerd called exploitation feminism, trashiness, low fidelity, and utopia in she devils on wheels and blood orgy of the leather girls. And it's an article about doing a feminist read of an exploitation film. It's not actually about fast or pussycat kill kill, although it is mentioned as one of the sort of foundational films for this. This was

[01:07:01] written by Christina Pia Hofer, and generally take great delight in being quote, bad. On the other hand, however, the overt sensationalism and unflinch would be able to see, you know, scantily clad women as a teenage boy, I think that Zander would have been spot on, especially that quip he makes when Willow makes a comment about how she and Buffy had like a sleepover with weapons. And he's like, to either the face, not killing him, thank God. You know, and she's like, I can't lose you. I can't do this without you. And they have this amazing, like sobbing embrace in the race. It's such a good moment. So sad. And it just sets up what's to come in the rest of the season

[01:11:04] so perfectly.

[01:11:06] Like, I remember rewatching. Ugh, fan of it. And then the high school is like classic Southern California, right? It's like concrete, open corridors and breezeways and courtyards and things like that.

[01:13:40] I went to high school in New Hampshire,

[01:13:42] and we had like one little tiny outdoor space

[01:13:46] with two benches, and plaids. His clothes look sort of general dude in the 90s to me. They're not particularly noteworthy.

[01:15:00] And of course Giles is always in his British tweed.

[01:15:03] So that's both old fashioned and timeless. I didn't. Oh, but it was, you know, I just remember being so influenced by what they were wearing at that time. And those lovely, you know, you talked about the healed, like clunky Mary Janes that Jenny calendars, I think those are back now. Yeah, a lot of nice.

[01:16:20] Those are coming back.

[01:16:21] Those are flat form sandals.

[01:16:22] So I was like, all right, I'll bust out my Steve Madden

[01:16:25] platform sandals. to Buffy's house, you know, after you know Miss Callender's died and her car is just filled with garlic down crosses. It's like, oh my goodness. I don't know how Buffy is able to even fall asleep in her room. I know. Like when she and Willow are sitting in her bed,

[01:19:00] like not sleeping, I'm like,

[01:19:01] why don't you guys go to Xander's house?

[01:19:03] There's no way Angel's ever been invited in there.

[01:19:05] Exactly, like just go somewhere heart to tell Jenny and Giles to get back together, right? She's not done being angry at Jenny, but she doesn't want Giles to be lonely,

[01:20:20] and she says, or anyone.

[01:20:21] And it's so warm and loving.

[01:20:26] It's such a, oh, what are they gonna do this to us? Just like set it up so nicely and Giles being so excited.

[01:21:40] But it was very big of Buffy. Yeah. To track Remembering Jenny that's played at the end of this episode in his song A Fire Love and the song was inspired by the show so I gotta go check that out.

[01:23:01] For sure.

[01:23:03] And that in the scene where that song Remembering Jenny plays when they're All right, cool. I think these will do in a pinch. Kind of gracious. Although I would like to see Giles' weapon collection. Yeah. I'm sure that's interesting. And each item probably also has a story. That's true. Maybe I just have a little crush on Giles now.

[01:24:21] Maybe that's what's happening.

[01:24:23] Okay, Kara.

[01:24:25] We've come to that point in is still that supernatural aspect to it.

[01:25:40] But it's got a real message that will probably resonate

[01:25:45] forever, honestly. Jenny was such a shock and the way he posed her body was unbelievably cruel. Poor Giles. He was so happy and it got snatched away from him. I know. It is really sad. That's so rough. And like we were saying, so memorable and unforgivable. Mm-hmm. Uh, Jolene Abbey, a regular contributor. That's kind of that's kind of funny. Oh, it's great. I haven't seen a floppy disk in a really long time. Yeah that's uh That's uh, that's a throwback. All right. How many people watching this show? For the first time these days don't know what a floppy disk is most people

[01:28:22] Yeah, I would love to know if we've mentioned this before, but we do have an Instagram as well. And it's at still playing cast. We, you know, put a feedback post, share Buffy content. So if you haven't already, come check us out over there as well. That would be great. And when you're at podcastica.com, there's so many shows on there that you might enjoy.

[01:29:44] If you're enjoying this one, I bet you would enjoy yellow jackets, although it's a lot more I have been re-listening to episodes of Podcastes... Podcastes... I can't do it. Podcastica's coverage of Better Call Saul, eh, right? It was late to the Breaking Bad party and the Better Call Saul party, and I heard Jason,

[01:33:44] our Podcastica founder talk so much about how he loved Breaking Bad and I should give it another some feedback, it doesn't cost you anything and we love to hear it. Next time we'll be covering season 2 episode 21, Becoming Part 1. So we're skipping three episodes. We're skipping, killed by death. I only have eyes in the last episode. I said that Spike does a poetry reading in the Buffy finale, but it's in the angel finale. Oh, and on an angel? Yeah. I had a hard time watching this episode

[01:35:03] and not thinking about the allegations break up is wanting revenge and who are angry at women. Zander is mean to Cordelia all the time. He says horrible stuff to her. Calls her slutty and all this other stuff. Not to mention he sexualizes every woman he comes to. And knowing that that's a stand in for Whedon, it's I couldn message to the actors, like be very good or I'll kill you. And that could not have been more pointed at charisma, I think. And what she dealt with on set that only came out years later.

[01:36:20] But it's true, every time Zander says something creepy

[01:36:24] or a male character does something creepy, when we were talking about Buffy and, you know, as a hero, we don't see heroes with that much, you know, kind of softness and compassion and vulnerability. And that really just makes me amped to get to faith and her introduction. And,. She's such a great character. You know, she's this shadow version of Buffy. You know, she's who Buffy could have's just, oh, yes, so good. And I do love to the, you know, talking about skipping the next three episodes and going straight to becoming, but that floppy disk coming back

[01:40:21] and the fact that Willow happens to be some sort of computer genius really coming in handy. of freeze. Yeah. And slide down the wall where willows is more emotional. And then in season, is it season four or five with the body? Oh, season five. Yeah, that, that episode, like, that's a hard one to get through. But every time I see this one, and that little slice

[01:41:42] of grief and performance that Sarah Michelle G, well, that's true of every groundbreaking show is that it's going to spawn some stuff you like and some stuff you don't. Like, that's

[01:43:01] OK. Yeah. So I watch it. It's too much of that it went on for too long but the first few seasons I thought were really entertaining and fresh. I felt like kind of silly watching it at first and then I was like all right fine I'll keep going. Yeah I just needed I just need something like true blood I

[01:44:21] also liked but it's hard to match Buffy I'm gonna compare anything with