302 "The Raven" (The Fall of the House of Usher E8)

[00:00:00] Hey everybody, I'm Rima. And I'm Peg. And this is Strange Indeed, a podcast dedicated

[00:00:17] to the Netflix show The Fall of the House of Usher.

[00:00:21] This week we are finally here. We are covering the finale, episode 8 of The Fall of the House at the runtime on their podcast player and be like, oh god. But I have a feeling this one's gonna go well, but there is a lot to talk about and a lot to unpack. And as much as I'm like, oh man, this is gonna be daunting and a lot to deal with, I'm excited to talk about so much of it. And also a little sad that it's over because I'm gonna miss this show.

[00:01:41] There's so much good stuff to dig into.

[00:01:45] I'm there with you.

[00:01:47] I'm really pleased it. It's always a little a little bit of melancholy here on this side of the house, you know, just just really well done I thought so Okay, well You know we we could sit here and chatter all day and praise, you know flan again all day and night Which I'm sure the two of us could easily do. Oh, yeah. I know we we have a lot to cover

[00:04:23] We should just send all of this to Mike Flanagan and just be like we're we're just you know

[00:05:31] All right, so for this series finale episode of the fall of the House of Usher peak, will you please do us the honor of starting us off? All right. It was kind of cut between two places, two characters really, that I want to start with and I'll talk about one then the other.

[00:05:43] And I was like, do I start with the best of the best or like the worst of the worst?

[00:05:47] All the choices. there in the house trying to convince her to amend her statements, make her dad look like the good guy, save face for the company, all these things. And I think her response was just the absolute best. Because Arthur says, you know, it's for the company, you know, you gotta do this. And it's like, you know, once I talk to your mom, she's going to do the right thing. And I love that Lenore says, then you won't talk to her.

[00:07:04] I don't care what's good for the family or the company.

[00:07:06] This is about my mom. was able to bring out to where even if he was not good and never would be good on his own, he loved and applauded the good that was in her. And so I really enjoyed that. And so that's what we say as Lenore staying with her grandfather as he's back home after this like health scare,

[00:08:21] whatever, he kind of passes out there after domestic violence and abuse. The Lenora Foundation named after her. I love that Verna spells all that out and was like, you did that. And it's a beautiful last little moment there that is then made bittersweet very

[00:09:40] tragically as we know what's coming. And so yeah, we've talked about this whole

[00:09:45] series, the show, she says,

[00:11:01] it's not too late to fix it.

[00:11:03] That's what she's worried about.

[00:11:05] And so just the Ballad of Lenore, I the children were, you know, you could argue, well, did they really, maybe Freddie did, but did all they did they others really deserve what happened to them? Did they deserve to pay the price for Roderick and Madeline's

[00:12:21] decision to strike this deal with Verna? But when you get to Lenore in that guest bedroom, that's the one time he shows any emotion over all of these deaths, was Lenore. Yeah, I've thought about that, yes. I think it is, it's the first time we've seen any mourning, grief, any of that. We've seen his children die one by one, not a tear,

[00:13:41] no grief at all, but now,

[00:13:44] and it's over Lenore that amazing performances by both the actresses I don't have Lenore the the girl that played Lenore in front of me I know we've seen her before she did a fantastic job just you know as she's listening to Verna you. She's like, you could have died peacefully in your sleep when she tells one of the ushers, before they're so violently murdered or die in so much pain or whatever, they're like, it didn't have to be this way. It could have been quick, could have been painless. Didn't have to be all this torture, didn't have to be this dramatic. It could have been easy. It was gonna happen no matter what,

[00:16:20] but it could have been easy.

[00:16:21] And we see here that it was, it could have been,

[00:16:25] because Lenore was good.

[00:16:28] And she did have a good heart the big one, and that's the deal. Finally, finally get to see the rest of what played out that night in that bar nears Eve, 1979. And this is of course, I know we're gonna talk about what happened before that, but this is definitely

[00:17:42] what happens after what Madeline and Roderick have done

[00:17:46] to Rufus Griswold. chatting it up with her. And she tempts them with a proposition and lets them know that you can have whatever you want. You could be the kings and queen of Fortunato and they can get away with everything.

[00:19:01] They can, no matter what they do, they'll get away with it.

[00:19:04] They'll have all the wealth and someone that they'd be unwilling to sacrifice. And Roderick's like, not me. Which I like her. I'm not like most people. Yeah, I like Verna's response to that, the curiouser and curiouser. That's a Alice in Wonderland reference, which was interesting, it was fun to hear.

[00:20:22] Yeah, it was really great.

[00:20:25] So, after all of that, this mask or facade was really that terrible of a person.

[00:21:42] And if it was what happened to him

[00:21:46] with the death of his mother, like, wow, does she have like a little moment of morality or something? I don't know. Yeah, that's what I thought was really interesting about that. Yeah. Didn't she almost have a pause to you or something or just, you know, I know she went along with it, but her reaction was interesting, I thought. Yeah, because she was really stuck on this idea of it being like a hypothetical, right?

[00:23:00] She's like, well, hypothetically, this and decides, guess what? I'm not having kids.

[00:24:20] I'm not gonna risk it, yeah.

[00:24:21] Yeah, and whether or not, that somehow that's a better life than living even longer and just like dying out of a natural way and maybe they have some struggles in life. And I think if this series has taught us anything, his children, all of his kids were not happy people.

[00:25:40] They had all the luxury, all the money, all the comforts. or you know what what what happens here and it was finally good to see that unfold and get to see that i thought it was a really great scene very interesting and broke my damn heart that roderick was really a lowlife piece of shit from the beginning right uh-huh yeah i like that even though it seems very crazy and fantastical that madeline was the pragmatist which makes sense

[00:27:03] that's definitely her but when asked you know what if i can guarantee you all of this then you know But again, Roderick seems to be just more intrigued. He's like, almost like he's already seeing the opportunity in something where he's like, I don't know who this is, I don says, and it costs what, our souls or whatever? Like he's just very nonchalant about like, yeah, sounds good, which I loved, again, just the writing with Verna's response to that, no such thing for one, and even if there was,

[00:29:41] you already sold them tonight, one brick at a time.

[00:30:49] Yeah. And then just that last little, you know, we should settle up. We just did. Which was great. And then them going outside. I like, they still don't believe what happened. That weird fucking

[00:30:53] lady and turning around and realizing the bar was never there. Ooh. Yeah. Looks like it did when,

[00:31:02] I don't remember what episode it was, but when Madeline retraced their steps. Yeah himself so that he, you know, she could like weasel out of the death contract and then take over the company for herself and Now they get to have a conversation about that. Uh, which it it half worked. She is now the head of the company He's been asked it. He has nothing But as far as the other part of it, yeah, Verna is still just around the corner looking to collect and

[00:32:23] Oh, she absolutely does in

[00:33:25] eyes of Tousret and this you're you are a queen you're a goddess you're gonna live forever give you the Queen's burial surrounded by all your treasures so that

[00:33:30] you have them in the afterlife all of this kind of stuff but the way he goes

[00:33:33] about it I feel like there's a little bit of a dig in there as well for the

[00:33:36] fact that what she did to him and it kind of goes in a you know perfect piece

[00:33:43] of poetic symmetry right where the way he gets her is poisoning her with a Yeah, her speech was, or her monologue more like, their Flanagan monologue, was just so on the nose. I mean, a lot of this episode was, there was a lot of big hits of current modern day occurrences and happenings

[00:35:00] that you're like, oh, yep.

[00:35:04] Yeah, and then of course, her lines,

[00:35:05] I don't care if it's death herself,

[00:35:07] which that's kind of where I'm landing. straight to him and blindly grasping for his throat, strangles the life out of him, which again, full circle, like their mother did to their father in that first episode. So a lot of symmetry, which Verna says she's a creature of symmetry. She likes the symmetry, yeah.

[00:36:21] Well, I mean, Madeline told us, or at least showed us,

[00:37:23] to Roderick's, because she said, into the world together, out of the world together.

[00:37:26] So when she accepted the deal, her fate was tied with his.

[00:37:32] And she kept trying to look for a way to,

[00:37:38] like Verna puts it, loophole.

[00:37:40] Her way, her way.

[00:37:42] Her way.

[00:37:42] The really good line, by the way.

[00:37:47] But she keeps trying to find a way with this AI, you know, to try to create something that was like an AI version of a human. And just like you said, you know, like her mom, you know about Verna and what we think she was, as close of an explanation as what what we were able to come up she saw him, or that she first saw him, Arthur Pym, during that expedition when he was a younger man. there's another poem by Edgar Allan Poe called Dreamland and the narrator in that poem talks about a location that he calls an ultimate dim thule that exists

[00:44:21] out of space off of it just a little bit. So I don't think she's good. It's still very mysterious. But that's what I'm kind of leaning towards. It's a really good catch and a really good, yeah, like for you digging in there and finding that because, yeah, as we've seen throughout this series, like names and locations and even little things that seem like a throwaway, like what did I say? You know, with Pim saying, I got to meet so-and-so for dinner,

[00:47:00] or, you know, I'm having them for dinner.

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:03] And it was this, it is a explain her full scope of powers. I don't understand really everything that she can do and what she's capable of, but it seems like she's able to, you know, like time and space mean nothing like where she's at. So I think that's an interesting something to consider.

[00:48:21] To.

[00:48:22] Even if she is some kind of, yeah,

[00:48:23] just supernatural being,

[00:48:26] like it makes me almost think like a jinn situation in Midnight Mass, we get some answers and stuff, but really we still don't know where does that come from? Why is it? What's what's the reasoning? What is it doing? What is and I think it's totally fine that we get that kind of open-ended and we don't know everything because it doesn't take away from the story and the The themes and the things that are there. Yeah, agreed

[00:49:43] Okay, what's your next point ah, it kind of rolls right into it

[00:50:42] She's like, front row seats to see how you do what you do. It's like, you really are good at it, aren't you?

[00:50:45] Scaring-

[00:50:46] He is the pin reaper after all.

[00:50:47] Yeah, now we see where that nickname comes from for sure.

[00:50:50] No kidding, yeah.

[00:50:53] Yeah, and then after scaring the shit out of him

[00:50:55] with that, you know, her supernatural ways,

[00:50:56] they have their conversation.

[00:50:58] Which I think it's funny, that is twice now

[00:51:00] that somebody has killed Verna in that house

[00:51:02] and then they had to respond with,

[00:51:03] I apologize when she appears again.

[00:51:07] I think I'd be saying sorry real quick too. Verna offers Pym a deal of his own. More freedom from legal consequences, from everything that he's done and he's tied to after the Usher empire falls. So it turns out Camille had quite a case built on him. She says it still barely scratches the surface but it's enough to give you life in prison. But he would have to give up something near and dear to him

[00:52:23] and he's not willing.

[00:52:24] We don't know if he has anything.

[00:52:26] There's like this little glimmer in his eyes so I can't be leveraged. Like, you know, Madeline or Roderick have leveraged themselves, you know, in that way. So I'm like, Arthur Pym is a huge mystery to me. It would have been cool to get, you know, an episode focused solely on him a little bit.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:42] And of course, last thing I just want to say

[00:53:43] about that conversation is I got to point out the line

[00:53:45] because it made me giggle. and he's kind of, you know, I realized that it was a deal with Verna that they were not going to suffer any legal consequences, but I feel like Arthur Pym has a lot to do with that, being an excellent lawyer and having a lot of money and wealth of the Usher family behind him to be able to be so powerful, to intimidate and keep them out of trouble. So

[00:55:03] it's just an interesting link even August, you know in an earlier episode something It you know makes a remark about like oh, yeah He's the guy you call when you want something to disappear right like or something, you know, like so, I mean it feels like it's kind of like Unspoken that people know this about Arthur Pym but like nothing because again, he's connected to the ushers

[00:56:20] Nothing is gonna stick legally so they can't really

[00:56:23] Say that he does any of this stuff out loud like in like a court of law or anything

[00:57:27] even talk about. I feel like just this whole thing with uh, Verna and this like mystery of who she is and her origin just has me thinking so many different things so maybe I'll save this one

[00:57:32] for a little bit later. Uh, one small point that I have is just never more. Love it. I-

[00:58:41] called to me. I was like, yeah, gotta get it.

[00:58:50] Had I known I know I did not venture out that day. But had I known I said, here's some money pick me one up to totally would

[00:58:55] have done having one of those off to give me one if they have

[00:58:57] them online. Yeah. Well, it's what we hear Roderick say at the

[00:59:02] end is Madeline is you know it must be this constant like paying to him you know knowing that it's like this AI version of her but it keeps texting nevermore a reference in this episode and throughout the series obviously. Yeah a couple of thoughts about that which yeah just as extra notes as well was yeah the raven and kind of the poem and what it is which you covered. I love that you know that sitting on the bust of Pallas or Athena as we know the

[01:01:44] goddess of war that they threw that in there is a visual too is really cool but is despair. There will be nothing good for the rest of his life. No happiness, no joy, no peace. It's just despair and it's kind of this antagonizing way of he's been sent this message over and over throughout the night. It's like, this is your fault. This is your doing. It's your time to pay. It's imminent. You did this. I think it's just a very, it's a reminder that just kind of keeps playing in his head and on his phone, you know, this entire time.

[01:03:04] That's a good point. Yeah, I didn't. You'remore was just a way to keep poking that, yeah, this was all his fault. That's, yep, that's good. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, and then just the scene where he's reciting the poem, the raven, as it's showing him with the raven in the room

[01:04:22] and Lenore's body and all these things

[01:04:24] that he's being tormented with that.

[01:04:26] And even though we don't hear the raven say nevermore We called it. Yeah. We called it. Yeah. Yeah. So of course you have the party that they were at before Verna's bar was this Fortunato party. We see Rufus Griswold walk in in the Jester costume and we're like, well, there's one. And then she pulls out the Amontillado

[01:05:40] and I was like, and there's one, one plus one.

[01:05:42] All right.

[01:05:43] It's where we're there.

[01:05:44] Everything is confirmed.

[01:05:45] Like even before anything happened, to see how open and willing that Roderick was to do all this. That he definitely just had this evil in him. Because it's not just him going along with Madeline. He's the one that's just, yep, here's what we're doing. Here's the plan. Here's what I'm going to do. And he's spelling it all out. And you can really see as he's cementing on this wall that he has no remorse, no care, that he's more than happy

[01:07:02] and willing to do this.

[01:07:05] Which Griswold goes through the stages of grief. You know, the stuff that he's been hiding and running from, this case that Dupain was trying to build on him. Instead of continuing to hide it, they're like, yeah, no, we get rid of Rufus and then we just let it all out there. We're like, yeah, no, all of that did happen. But now everyone's going to assume he fled the country and he went away without extradition, you know, all these things where he's gone in the wind and now who's here to pick up

[01:08:22] the pieces and take over the role?

[01:08:23] Who can handle it?

[01:08:25] I don't know. and maybe guilt for Madeline that's in there is when she etches onto one of the bricks, you know, you are so small, to where he can see that. Which if you remember, those exact words is what Annabelle had said to her when she kind of realized what Madeline was. And so she had been internalizing that, and this was a way to kind of turn that and set it up.

[01:09:42] I think that was very interesting

[01:09:43] because Madeline has, it seems guess it's better than the alternative. I don't know. And kind of plays the role of Griswold there. But yeah, Montresor invites Fortunato to sample this Amontillado that he had just purchased and without proving its authenticity. And then Fortunato follows him into the Montresor family vaults, which also serve as catacombs. And then even in the story there's unknown reasons really, but Montresor is seeking revenge against Fortunato and lures him into a trap.

[01:13:23] Going off of that theory makes a lot of sense in a way. I mean, it wasn't necessarily Griswold's fault that the Usher family status was not where

[01:13:29] it was supposed to be, but you could make the argument that Roderick and Madeline saw

[01:13:33] Griswold as actively holding them down.

[01:13:37] Knowing who they were, knowing what their status was, knowing that Longfellow was their

[01:13:40] father and still trying to use him as the fall guy really quick, you know So that that makes sense, I like that

[01:15:04] Very good. I

[01:16:03] Roderick has the same illness as their mom.

[01:16:09] What I saw was, I thought, a little bit different to what we were being explained

[01:16:10] to what Roderick and his symptoms were,

[01:16:12] but they're saying it was the same thing.

[01:16:14] So she dies apparently from this illness.

[01:16:19] The kids bury her, she comes back to life.

[01:16:21] I mean, she doesn't just come back to life,

[01:16:23] she digs herself out of the ground,

[01:16:25] busts out of this homemade casket

[01:16:27] that the kids made for her, Longfellow and kill him. Verna, if we go along with the theory that she can exist outside of time and space, and we've seen her in these pictures in all different phases of time, from the early 1900s and the

[01:17:41] 40s and the 50s and the 80s and the present time, she's the same. order it does I feel like sets the precedent for like I don't think Madeline and Roderick would have done the deal had that not happened in their lives I feel like that kind of set off this chain of events that got them where they are but I feel like that their death is the reason that they went ahead and took

[01:19:03]