553: "Wildfire" (TWD S1E5 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcastica, The Last of Us, Podcast dedicated to the show. Jason Cuzzecki, Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Peter. And this is The Cast of Us, episode 553.

[00:01:09] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, season one, episode five, Wildfire. Welcome back, Peter. Great to have you back. Thank you. Thank you. You know, just as we were coming on to this, I was like, what do I say again? And I'm like, I am Peter. Yes.

[00:01:27] It's all coming back to me now. That reminds me of the time when I was getting Karen and I used to do this in the same place and I started and she was like fumbling to get her agenda out because she's like, couldn't remember her line.

[00:01:40] And I was like, I shouldn't throw her under the bus like that. Anyway, I'd like to ask you, Peter, what came first, The Walking Dead or Lucy in your life? Oh, Lucy, by some way. And that is a weird segue.

[00:01:56] And I went back to listen to the first thing you recorded on this episode, Jason, and I was like, holy crap, that was 2010. Yeah. So 13 years ago, this episode. And then Lucy and I had been together a bit at that point. Only a year.

[00:02:11] I remember I was nagging you to watch it. We just got that terrible virgin TV box. I think you were sick. And I was like, yes, I can finally make this thing with the guy from this life in it.

[00:02:23] And I think we watched like season one in a day. I feel like we binged it. Yeah, I think we, I think we rattled through it pretty fast. I mean, it's easy to forget. It's, it's quite short.

[00:02:33] You can, you know, season one, you can rattle through in no time at all. And I like that the episodes are all a quick 45 minutes too. So did you dig it right away back then? Yeah, I really liked it.

[00:02:45] I think it's easy to easy to forget what a novelty it was all that all that time back. You know, I think probably just about anyone who was starting to watch it was quite familiar with zombie movies and all the, and all the tropes and very formulaic.

[00:03:03] And then this, this show that was trying to take a much more grounded approach comes along. I remember I was rewatching some of the older episodes with Lucy just recently. And there's that scene where Rick's in the tank and he fires the gun and wrecks his hearing

[00:03:22] in the process. And little things like that were really exciting because it grounded the whole thing and created the sense of risk and stakes. The, yeah, I think, yeah, that's sort of something that's happened in our culture over time recently, not just with horror, but any genre thing.

[00:03:42] It used to be considered niche for the nerds and the children. And then it's like, no, we're all pretty interested in this. So then they started giving more weight to it and playing it straight and being more serious about all of it.

[00:03:53] You know, there's one supernatural thing, but everyone else acts the way that they would normally. This is the only thing that's different. And that's what I've always loved. One of the things I've always loved about The Walking Dead. And yeah, you're right.

[00:04:05] Like at the time we hadn't really had a lot of that with horror on TV before. I remember watching season two on our big ass projector. Do you remember we got that projector from a pawn shop and we were like, let's watch the season two premiere on it.

[00:04:18] It was not great quality. So I'm looking forward to going back and rewatching that. It wasn't great quality, but it was huge. It was big. Well, let's get into this week's this episode, The Walking Dead season one, episode five wildfire.

[00:04:36] Just in general, what did you think of this one watching it again, Peter? I like this episode. And I, when Lucy said to me, you know, how would you feel about coming on for an episode? And she mentioned the ones that were kind of coming up.

[00:04:53] I was really interested in this one because I think it sits in a really interesting contrast with the episode that the two of you will be talking about later, where it's my belief

[00:05:05] that these two episodes are trying really hard to do a great big lower dump and tell us more about the premise of the show at the end of season one. But I think I'm going to hope I can make the argument for it here that this episode is

[00:05:21] doing it in a much more interesting, much more sophisticated way than the one that will follow is. And it's actually spending some time with that. I actually found it really satisfying episode. I liked it a lot. That's great. I'm intrigued to hear exactly what you have there.

[00:05:35] I should say we haven't spoken about this at all. Like we were like we deliberately not spoken to one another about this. We were sitting writing notes at the same time last night, not speaking to each other, which my idea of a great night.

[00:05:46] But yeah, I mean, Jenny and I, we just finished White Lotus and we did the same thing. We tried not to talk about it until we got on there, you know. A couple that sit silently writing notes together to disagree about later stays together.

[00:05:58] I couldn't, I was with you Jason, I couldn't remember what happened in this episode because Wildfire sounds like a really exciting, wild episode and I'm like, oh, actually it's quite a, it's quite a talker.

[00:06:11] But I kind of like UP, I was thinking about the bigger, it seemed like a really immediate decision that they make in this episode, like just a practical one. But actually I think it says a lot about where the show's at at this point, like the decision

[00:06:27] to go to the CDC and Jim passing away. And it's kind of a turning point for the show, I think is when it really starts to get moving. And that was interesting to sit and watch.

[00:06:38] And I should say as well, I've been this morning, Peter had to come up and see what I was laughing about. I was watching some of the cut scenes from Walking Dead Destinies, which has not been well received.

[00:06:48] And a lot of them deal with some of the things that kind of happen around this time. So it was nice to see the actual story play out and yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.

[00:06:58] That by the way, it's a game, Walking Dead Destinies, where you can play through some of the earlier situations in The Walking Dead and choose different story points. And I have a news item about that, so we'll talk about it a little bit more. Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:11] If done well, sounds good. If done well, great idea. Moving on. So I liked the episode a lot. I thought like Tell It to the Frogs, it was a lot about human drama. Like you said, talky, very decompressed.

[00:07:24] I think viewers have less patience with this kind of thing as the show went along. And they look back on these earlier episodes as being the best. So I'm sort of like, you know, I like the episode with Carol and the rats.

[00:07:38] And it's not exactly the same as this, but it's an exploration of human psychology in the way that this is too, you know? So anyway, I think it's great. Interesting that Glenn Mazzara wrote this one. I wonder if that's what got him showrunner. Yeah, I'd be surprised.

[00:07:55] All right, let's get into our points. Peter, you want to go first? Yeah, let's jump right in. So I'll make my case about what I think this episode is doing really well. I won't talk about what I think the subsequent episode is going to do purely, because I'm

[00:08:15] sure the two of you will be talking about that shortly. If in my memory that episode six is my least favorite of these six, but I have been reevaluating and thinking of these slightly different as we've gone along. So I'm curious to see if it'll be the same.

[00:08:32] But I don't know if it's for any of the same reasons that you feel. But anyway, I just thought I'd bring that up. I think, yeah, I think the episode that's going to follow is interesting because it's such a anomaly in The Walking Dead.

[00:08:49] But here I'm just interested in the tools they've used to try and do the storytelling here. And I think it's a really lovely example of show don't tell, which is, you know, it's a complete cliche to talk about that.

[00:09:01] But I think they do so well in this episode that it's worth paying attention to. I think it's very clear that season one, they're just desperately trying to set up the premise for a show that will carry on for subsequent seasons.

[00:09:14] So they need to establish all the lore and they need to set up those mechanics of what happens when you're bit. How do you get sick? How do you turn? What happens when you come back?

[00:09:24] And over the course of this episode, they do both of those things separately with characters that are set up that you care about. They do it back to front. So it kind of slips by you.

[00:09:34] If you flip Amy and Jim's experiences around, you have a complete journey all the way through being bit and becoming sick, fading away, dying and then coming back as a zombie. And in each of those cases, it's done in this very tender, sensitive way that's been set

[00:09:55] up in the previous episode. It's given emotional stakes by the characters who are around them. And so you go on that whole journey. By the end of it, you have this clear understanding of what it's like to be bit, what the emotional

[00:10:10] consequences of that are in the world, what it's like to be someone seeing someone they care about come back again at the end of that process. And it's all set up for you. And at no point does anyone say, and at this point, Jim has a vision.

[00:10:26] Rick, I had this vision of zombies flashing about in front of me strobing. They don't need to do that because they're walking you through it. And that's that point that I want to make about the subsequent episode, because again,

[00:10:40] still trying really hard to get all this information to us. They're going to lean on those classic TV and movie trap tropes of CGI images of things while people talk over it and say, this is this is a virus and this is how you get sick

[00:10:53] from it and all these things. And I think those tools that are going to be used in the subsequent episode make it feel weak and perfunctory and just like an exposition dump. In a way, this episode doesn't, despite the fact that I would argue that it's dumping

[00:11:11] at least as much information on you. You know, the subsequent episodes basically just going to say it's a virus and we don't know how to cure it. I don't think before Wildfire that we see someone get bit and turn. We know there are lots of zombies around.

[00:11:30] We don't even see anyone get bitten. Before last week's episode, yeah. But the consequences of being bitten is the absolute fundamentals of a zombie show. And they've taken their time getting there and they're really setting up all these rules

[00:11:46] that will be essential through all the seasons that follow. And I think the fact that it's not screaming out to you, here are the rules of this zombie world is really nice. Instead, as you say, Jason, you're spending time with characters and the psychology of them.

[00:12:03] And so you feel it rather than learn it. Yeah. And without knowing suddenly you could write most of The Walking Dead zombie rules from Wildfire. Sure. I mean, yeah, there's a couple of big precedents here. What a fresh zombie looks like in Amy.

[00:12:23] And I think they pretty much kept this, the gray pale skin and the milky eyes. You know, I can't remember who, but we've seen a few others that were just bitten and reanimated and they look, they don't all of a sudden, unless you're on Fear the Walking

[00:12:37] Dead, they don't look all like rotten, like they've been decomposing for months or anything. And then the second one is what you mentioned, what a person who's infected sees. And we see basically Jim having these visions of these zombies grimacing.

[00:12:53] And I remember at the time and now to thinking, I don't, I don't think I like this. It doesn't make sense to me that the virus would infect your brain in a way that you would see what you're about to turn into.

[00:13:09] You know, I think what would have been better is if he would have started hungering for human flesh or something. But they did use this again only one other time as far as I know. And that was when Shane gets shot and turns and are knifed.

[00:13:28] And I think that was it. And I'm glad, I think they must have realized this isn't really working. It doesn't add anything. Actually, I think it was a mistake to use it with Shane too.

[00:13:38] It would have worked better if it were particular to Jim, like he just seen zombies eat his family and so they were on his mind and now he knows he's going to turn into that. So he's just thinking about it, you know, that's sort of makes sense.

[00:13:50] Like, oh my God, that's what I'm about to become. But the way it was presented, it was more like what you're saying. Like this is just what happens when you get bitten. You start having flashes of corpses, you know what I mean? I don't know.

[00:14:02] What do you guys think about what I'm saying? Well, I, I think you've got at least one other precedent. I think when I believe it's when Tyrese is dying, he's having a series of hallucinations and memories.

[00:14:16] Now I'll agree that those aren't strictly speaking zombies, but I think those kind of vivid dreams, those visions. I like that. The delirium of it, of Jim spouting nonsense for a while and then coming back into clarity.

[00:14:31] That was pretty, I mean, sad, but a good, interesting way of dealing with it. And then I think Tyrese, yeah, sort of had a form of that maybe. He's like hallucinating the BBC shipping forecast at one point. I think you're, it evolves and improves.

[00:14:48] I think you're right Jason, that if it was just, I've got, I'm going to die and become a zombie. So I'm having visions of zombies. It would be very on the nose. So the sophistication of the whole thing definitely improves, but the kernel of the idea is there.

[00:15:05] Did you guys ever see the incredible Hulk series from the seventies with Lou Ferrigno? Yeah. Where he would, skinny David Banner would Hulk out and that's kind of what it reminded me of.

[00:15:18] I remember back in the day I just had that thought again probably for the first time in 13 years, but that's what it brought. That's what I thought of. But yeah, I like, I mean, I think whether you like the sort of tenants they're setting

[00:15:33] out here or I don't know, like the facts of zombie-ness, they are setting out the way you said. And I like what you said. Yeah. That they're not like hitting us over the head with it. They're just showing it, not telling us about it. I am.

[00:15:49] One of my points was actually Jim. I feel like that might be a good segue into that. I, you know, Jim forever. I love Jim. I loved his character. I think the actor who plays him is fantastic. Andrew Rothenberg. Andrew Rothenberg.

[00:16:03] I feel like might have been a theatre actor as well. I know most actors do a bit of both, but I feel like he was quite an actor. And I just think he did such a great job with the tiny arc that he has.

[00:16:15] And I can see why. I think in years to come there's an episode where Rick is talking to somebody, maybe Carol or Daryl, and they talk about people from season one. They're like, I still think about them, Jim and Jackie and stuff.

[00:16:27] And I was like, it's so weird that they mentioned those people years on. But then I think about how formative this kind of few days in the camp is. And I'm like, actually, maybe it makes sense that they would remember Jim and the way that

[00:16:40] they deliberate over whether to leave him at the roadside or not, even though it's his wish to do to be left there. I thought that was very interesting. I was on Team Jim for that because, you know, it's his choice how he wants to go.

[00:16:55] That's a theme this season about people getting up in other people's business and trying to control them. I don't know if I realized that as much back then, but it's every episode. There are people trying to tell other people what to do.

[00:17:06] They're like scrabbling for control and leadership and guidance. And the thing that really made me laugh about it was that Jackie was heartbroken to leave him at the side of the road. But Jackie also ratted him out real bad. She's like, I don't blame her.

[00:17:19] I don't blame her. But it was a funny contrast to her being like, goodbye my prince. I was like, maybe don't rat him out so bad. He lied about it. And I'm like, that is like the least cool thing you can do in the zombie apocalypse.

[00:17:35] But also at the beginning there, I could see just we don't really know. Does it affect everyone or you might be in denial yourself? So I can sort of get into his head and understand why he would do that. But still like not cool.

[00:17:49] Again, we're going to spoilers in this podcast. He's bit in almost exactly the same place that Carl gets bit later. Oh wow. Which I thought was quite interesting because baby Carl's probably watching this thinking, oh crap. And then Carl kind of hid it for a while too. Yeah.

[00:18:04] Carl lasted what? A week? Like a few weeks. Quite a long time. A few weeks. A summer. He had one last summer and then he thought it was time to go. It was nice.

[00:18:14] I love the scene between Rick and Jim where Jim asks Samarie, are you saving a grave for me? And he says sort of vaguely delirious but also vaguely prophetic, vaguely wise things. You know, that sound is God laughing while you make plans.

[00:18:30] I was really intrigued by watch the mangroves, their roots will tip the whole boat. I thought that was like a parable or something, but I went and looked it up and it's just nonsense. So mangroves are, looked up what mangroves are. Glenn Mazar wrote a poem.

[00:18:45] They are a shrub or tree that grows in saline or brackish water. Somebody on Reddit pointed out that Rick, when Rick leaves Sophia in shortly, in like just a couple of days in show timeline, I think it's in some mangroves. It's very, it's like in water.

[00:19:01] Jim is psychic. Jim is canonically psychic. But then I kind of like undid it because I went and looked up are there mangroves in Georgia and apparently there aren't. They're only by the sea. So Jim, you should have done more horticulture. But I loved it.

[00:19:16] I loved the stuff about Amy's in the water, Amy's off the ship and can Rick guide the ship. I went back and looked last week's episode and when Jim gets bitten, he screams out, I knew you were going to do that. I saw this.

[00:19:30] It's what I first saw. And then Rick continues the nautical metaphor because he talks about looking for the closest ship not going further out to sea. And I loved Jim's line about it's my decision, not your failure to Rick. That's such a good reading of Rick's character.

[00:19:47] He knew exactly what to say. And I was just sad. I was just sad to see him go. I did laugh that the kids were looking out the window at him. I was like wave to your uncle Jim kids. Bye. And then we never saw him again, right?

[00:20:05] No. And he must have turned. He must have. Yeah. There's a cute moment with him and Daryl as well, because Daryl at the start is like just fucking shoot him. But this moment where I think Daryl's almost offering wordlessly to shoot him with his

[00:20:18] crossbow and Jim sort of just smiles and Daryl goes on his way and he gives him this kind of nod and I'm like, oh, this feels like us moving into the Daryl we know and love later in the kind of silent nod era of Daryl.

[00:20:31] A lot of body language, nonverbal communication. I'm sort of reading like the Daryl we know is quite good at reading the room, I think. And we haven't quite explored that yet. But yeah, Jim, Jim and his death were one of my top three in the man grows. Yeah.

[00:20:47] Jim, speaking of Daryl, I just like this line when Rick because Jim is pretty instrumental in this episode. I think Rick at least tells himself one of the reasons why he wants to go to the CDC is hoping there's a cure for Jim.

[00:21:02] And then they're on their way. Yeah, who knows where they'd have ended up. But anyway, Daryl wants to just kill him and Jim and Rick's like early compassionate, hopeful Rick. Jim's not a monster. Dale, I guess Dale wanted to do that too. Or some rabid dog.

[00:21:19] He's sick, a sick man. We start down that road. Where do we draw the line? Oh, Rick. Oh, Rick. Oh, Rick. And Daryl says a smart thing. Well, the line's pretty clear. Zero tolerance for walkers.

[00:21:31] It's like, yeah, it's not like we're, how do we figure this exactly out? No, it's like if you get bitten, then you gotta go. Once again, Daryl speaking sense. I did laugh when Dale's like, I hate to say it and never thought I would, but maybe Daryl's right.

[00:21:49] I'm like, oh, Dale, don't be so sanctimonious. Like, shut up. Just say he's right. Come on. And then later he's like, well, you all spoke over me. But what I was going to say was, and I'm like, Dale, honestly, shut up, man. You wanted to kill him, Dale.

[00:22:01] Yeah, I was like, you wanted to shoot me. He's like, no, I was going to say let him make his own decision. I'm like, no, you weren't. No, that's not what you were saying, dude. Yeah.

[00:22:06] But I mean, Rick says we don't, we don't kill the living and, um, yeah, that's a laugh. It's just a lol in it. I was thinking about it, like, I don't, I can't remember a time when they ever decided

[00:22:26] to kill someone who was infected before they died and turned, you know, except when if it's the flu, then watch out for Carol. But otherwise, zombie infection, then I don't think they would always at least let him turn

[00:22:41] and then just immediately or at least let them pass out first. You know what I mean? And then yeah, let him die. I think you're right with them. No, with Dale. That was because Dale wanted him to. Oh, yeah. Okay. Because Dale has his guts.

[00:23:00] So that sort of harkens back to this. Yeah. Darrell's like, you fucking said you wanted it. I remember what you said, dude. Remember what you said? But I meant, no, no, no, no. Darrell's like, uh-huh. I'm just following what you said.

[00:23:10] Did either of you notice that in a funny kind of way, Jim's instrumental in the song is Jim's instrumental in Rick deciding to go to the CDC. But as far as I could tell, virtually nobody else. The way the episode seems to pan out, Rick's pushing for it.

[00:23:34] He's getting absolutely nowhere. And then Shane and Laurie have an interaction where Laurie feels guilt about her sort of infidelity, which prompts her to side with Rick. A bit further down the track, Shane is caught hilariously pointing his shotgun at Rick. Dale's like, yeah.

[00:24:00] And then Shane comes along and sides with Rick again, presumably out of some guilt or embarrassment. And that's actually what gets this group going down the road. Rick actually seems to be the only person who's trying to get to the CDC.

[00:24:17] The rest of them are just trying to clear their consciences, really. Yeah, I mean, they yeah, I would say yes to that. And speaking of Rick, my first item is on Rick. Early Rick.

[00:24:32] So as I mentioned, early Rick's often compassionate, a bit moralistic, hopeful, I think tries to be fair, deciding where they should go next. Shane wants to go to Fort Benning. He wants protection muscle. Rick is drawn more to hope a possible cure, wants to help Jim.

[00:24:54] So CDC, although he does say maybe that would be a protected area since it's so important. So that too. And he's on the sort of darker side can be demanding, asserting his authority, pushing people into dangerous situations. He had them go to Atlanta to get Merle.

[00:25:19] He asked Glenn to go with him, you know, he wanted them to go into the Vatos stronghold with their guns. And that was just ridiculous. When Darrell says Darrell wants to burn all the corpses and Glenn gets upset, he says

[00:25:40] we don't bury the living or was that what he said? We don't burn the living. We don't burn our own living. We don't burn our own. Yeah, that's we don't burn our people. We burn the geeks or something like that. We bury the living. No, wait, what? No.

[00:25:56] What did I say? What am I saying? And he goes, the Chinaman gets all emotional, says it's not the thing to do. We just follow him along. These people need to know who the hell's in charge here, what the rules are. And Rick says there are no rules.

[00:26:08] And I thought that was interesting given that he's going around in his police uniform. He realized last week when he was in Atlanta with his police uniform and a boiler, this grandma was treating him as if he was an officer of the law in the before times.

[00:26:25] But the laws no more. And I think that it really hit home right then. He's like, no, no, no, that's not a thing anymore. And but he's still wearing his uniform that evokes I'm an authority. And I'm trying to think about what could be the reason for that.

[00:26:43] I mean, the point of the police is to enforce the law and the point of the law, at least at its most idealistic, is to keep people safe from harm, I guess, and to keep things peaceful and fair. But there is no law now.

[00:26:57] So Rick is kind of like a sheriff in a Western, which I think is the idea. They wanted him to evoke that Western sheriff thing, especially early on here. He's putting himself up as the sole authority.

[00:27:09] And that's something like someone who's going to say, look, I'm the authority here. That's that's quite a thing to do. It's saying he knows right from wrong. And what makes it easier to take with Rick something that maybe a lot of us didn't even

[00:27:25] think about at first is because he is such a compassionate guy. But if you are not compassionate, then and you do that, you put yourself up as the authority, then that's bad. Those words, this is not a democracy anymore.

[00:27:42] Come up with me when I think about that, which he's going to say next season. And when you lose that compassion in that humanity, but you still put yourself up as an authority, then you're a dictator. You know, Rick Tater is what people were calling him.

[00:27:55] The Rick Tatership. Yeah. So following along this line, Morales and his family decide to leave for Birmingham, Alabama, where they have family. And at the time, I remember even though I liked the character, I liked that they were

[00:28:14] leaving because it felt like Peter, you were saying earlier, it's something grounded. You would have people peeling off and going, no, no, this doesn't seem right for me. I want to go search my family.

[00:28:25] And I almost kind of hope they would never come back because you probably never would see them again. But we do see Morales again in season eight, episodes two and three when it's during the

[00:28:35] whole all out war with the saviors and he's become a savior and he has Rick at gunpoint. And I have a clip of this and it's a little bit longer. It's almost four minutes, but I'm going to play the whole thing because it gives a real

[00:28:47] sense of the contrast between where Rick is now and where he goes at that point. And that plays into the whole thing about I'm saying about compassion to early Rick versus later Rick, but both asserting themselves as an authority. So here it goes. Is your family here?

[00:29:03] We never made it to Birmingham. They didn't. I'm sorry. Really? Rick? I am. I lost people too. Lori, Shane, Andrea, Glenn. Negan killed him, forced him to his knees, bashed his head in right in front of me, in front of his pregnant wife. He had a wife?

[00:29:55] Not before he met her. And this? Yeah. And this. She's the widow. Are you Negan too? I lost my family. I lost my mind. I was in some tow trailer, slaving myself to death, waiting to become nothing. And the saviors? They found me.

[00:30:39] They thought I was worth a damn. Worth bringing back with them. So yeah. Yeah, I'm Negan. To make it this far, this long, I had to be. Had to be something. Just like you. We're not the same. How's that? Look at you. Look at me?

[00:31:06] Look at us, Rick. Look at us. We're true assholes who'll do whatever we have to just to keep going. And the only difference is, I'm the one holding the gun. That doesn't make me any worse than you, Rick. That just makes me luckier.

[00:31:27] Because let's face it, if it wasn't me, if it was you holding the gun, I'd be brains out on the floor right now. You don't know that. And you do? Huh? I know. I wouldn't want to. Come on. Is that the best you can do?

[00:31:51] I'd at least try to find another way. Yeah, why? Because we knew each other for a few days back at the start? Look, I know. I wouldn't, I wouldn't choose... You want to know what I think? I think you can talk all you want.

[00:32:04] You can say all the words, Lori, Shane, Andrea, Glenn. They're all dead. And somewhere along the way, Officer Friendly died right along with them. Just like I did. That's what I know, Rick. Wait, no! You did? I know who it was. Don't matter. Not one little bit.

[00:32:48] I'd forgotten that scene entirely. I fully thought they just turned up and he just got shot. I did not remember that they had a conversation at all. Wow. And I remember at the time, it was... You're not used to hearing those names.

[00:33:00] Now we are because we're doing the rewatch, but... Yeah. You felt something to hear them mention Andrea and Dale and everybody. That is incredible. What was it like to hear that? Dark. It's made me dread season 8 a little bit. I know, that's where we're going.

[00:33:19] But it's good though. I think it's good. I don't know. No, it is. It's hard, you know. It's a shame that we lost moments like that in the bigger picture of season 8. Primo Rallis. This must all happen not long after losing his family and not getting to Birmingham.

[00:33:36] Yeah. The thing is, I think it's... Rick is constantly making bad, erratic decisions in the show. But I think what they set out clearly is he's very good at leading. He's very good at getting people to follow him. But he's not always right about the decisions he's making.

[00:33:56] Even going to the CDC, I'm not sure within the grander scheme if it really pays off. It's informative for the audience. But for the group, I don't think they get very much out of it.

[00:34:09] But I did want to just cycle back to the point you were making about Rick in his uniform looking somewhere between the police and a sheriff in an old western. Which is clearly where they're going with it.

[00:34:23] I think they're trying to do a tiny bit more as well. I think they're trying to talk about different kinds of authority. And that's why we have Shane also dressed as a police officer, but in a very, very different way.

[00:34:36] He's still in uniform, but he's wearing all of that militaristic clothing that we associate with authority through force rather than authority through some sort of moral standing. And I appreciate when you talk about the police, there's loads of context that you need to take care around there.

[00:34:55] But I think what the show is trying to express to us there are these two kinds of roles that authority figures can embody. And I think that is where Rick is consistent.

[00:35:07] He is a moral authority, someone who's seen as having something like the divine right of kings, I think, at this stage. When you say consistent, you mean throughout the series? Because I'm not so sure I agree with that. Yeah, I was going to say consistent.

[00:35:23] I just think he gets darker, you know? He does. He gets to the point where he's like calloused over. I do think he gets darker and I think he continues to make bad decisions and wrong decisions.

[00:35:36] But I think very rarely do we see the people around him not treat him as a rightful leader. He's very rarely treated as anyone. You know, where he goes wrong for me is, I mean, if he loves you, then he will try to take care of you.

[00:35:57] But if he doesn't know you, that's where it changes. If he doesn't know you early on here, he's still going to, like with Merle, you know, he tries to go back.

[00:36:07] But later on, he will shoot at people he doesn't know that turned out to be from the kingdom, which is a nice place. So that's dark to get to that place. He's quite all or nothing, Rick, I feel like.

[00:36:22] He struggles with balancing that morality and the actions that he takes. And I think he's very, it's almost like Shakespearean, heavy as the head that wears the crown. I know that's not the right quote. I know it's something different. We had an argument about this the other day.

[00:36:37] It's that kind of idea of like heavy as the head that wears the cowboy hat.

[00:36:40] He struggles with it in a way that, I don't think other leaders we see like Pamela Milton, Negan, I mean, I'm naming a whole heap of villains here, but they don't struggle with it. And maybe that's why they're villains. I don't know.

[00:36:54] But I had a point about this that I summarized as medicine versus guns, which is kind of what Shane and Rick's arguments are here. Do we go for medicine? Do we go and seek human help to heal?

[00:37:08] Or do we go to a military fortress to look for force? And I think that ties in with what you said, P, about Shane as a different kind of enforcer. A kind of, with a hint of, more than a hint of sort of militarism about him. Yeah.

[00:37:26] More about domination. Yeah. And that really came out for me in this episode. The arguments they're making are actually quite symbolic. Rick wants to go because he believes that there's still help and goodness. Shane wants to hunker down and go where there's force to keep him safe.

[00:37:43] And I think really Shane is right. We don't know that yet, though. I think if I was in their position at the beginning, I would want to be more helpful. But knowing what we know, they really needed to find a place they could fortify.

[00:37:58] And Fort Benning maybe could have been that. I looked it up in season two, episode one. They were headed to Fort Benning after they left the CDC. And then that's when the herd of walkers intercepted them on the highway and they got dispersed and they lost Sophia.

[00:38:15] So then they, that diverted them. They had to look for Sophia and ended up on the farm and didn't talk about Fort Benning anymore. But later in season two, they met Dave and Tony who are those bad guys in the bar. And they had said... Nebraska.

[00:38:30] It was overrun. Fort Benning was overrun, but we don't know if we can trust them. In season four, Mitch from Martina's camp said he was at Fort Benning when it was overrun. So apparently Fort Benning was overrun, which of course everything was overrun.

[00:38:44] But you kind of have to go in and clear a place out, right? And then fortify it. I think just that it's wild that in the canon of the show, the highway is like two days from now, like two or three days from this point.

[00:38:59] It's so strange to think of that when I've been looking at it, I'm like, oh yeah, like by next week they're in Herschel's farm. Isn't that nuts? Like Sophia's, Sophia's, we're counting down the days here and yeah, it's, it's so strange. But what do you think?

[00:39:12] I mean, based on what they know, it makes sense to try the CDC, but based on what we know, it doesn't, right? They just need to find a place that's fortifiable. Yeah. And start trying to bring people in that can help. Yeah.

[00:39:28] I did laugh when Rick said, you know, the government will protect the CDC at all costs. And I was like, some governments, that's all I'm saying. Um, yeah. All right, let's move on. Peter, what's your next point? I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

[00:39:51] So, uh, just, just Dale's reaction face. I miss it. I miss it so much. Every, every time the camera cuts to Dale, his jaw looses, eyes wide aghast at something's happening. It just brings me so much joy. It's so funny. I love it.

[00:40:09] And yeah, I think, um, I suppose trying to expand that into a point, um, talk about his eyebrows, talk about his eyebrows. I mean, it's a great moment where Shane is, it's so serious.

[00:40:24] He's got his gun pointed at his best friend and the camera shifts and Dale's like two feet away. It's almost like a comedy, right? And he's got the horrified look on his face and it was so effective. And he goes, Jesus. Yeah. I forgot that face. Jesus. Yeah.

[00:40:42] I think what we're, what we're seeing there is that, that transition that, that, that kind of scene isn't going to be as credible in later seasons where everybody, everybody's seen everything there. You know, everything's a bit Mad Max. Um, everybody has a cool leather coat at some point.

[00:40:58] Um, you know, the room for Dale who is probably more than any character, almost any other point, the one with still was one foot pre apocalypse. Yes. People are closer to their humanity here at the early part of this series.

[00:41:15] And that's, I think that's one reason why one good fit where it does have a leg up on later episodes because they're still in shock about all of this. I, I think as well, um, Peter, there is one reaction shot you like even more in season

[00:41:30] four, which is when Carl shoots a kid and it pans back to Herschel doing exactly the same face of like what the fuck just happened? I forgot about that. Oh, Carl.

[00:41:43] I wonder if I got a copy of walking dead destinies, if I could bring Dale forward to his reaction phase. I would love that. Just Dale react like you could do a meme. Couldn't you've just Dale reacting to situation. Everything that happens. I think that was it. Dale.

[00:42:03] I couldn't remember why Dale hated Shane so much. I was like, cause Dale has a real problem with Shane in season two and a lot of it is about Andrea. But I think this is the turning point of him being like, Oh, this guy's messed up.

[00:42:15] Um, for me too. When he's playing his gun at Rick, I think that's when I was like, okay, you're a motherfucker. Yeah. Okay. Yes. You pulled away, but you thought about it seriously. And Dale, Dale's the same and he and Shane are not friends after this.

[00:42:30] I don't think, and I was always on Dale's side when it came to their rivalry. Oh yeah. Well, especially given where Shane goes to next. Like, yeah, absolutely. Makes complete fucking sense. Yeah. But I think Dale got even threatening with, um, I mean not Dale.

[00:42:47] Shane got threatening with Dale in season two. He did. Oh, so dark. Well, dark Shane was, was one of my points. Um, which kind of just ties into that. Cause that is, that is the first moment I think of unsympathetic Shane.

[00:43:05] Cause I think when he's beating up Ed, it's dark. And I think the way he is in earlier episodes with Laurie is, is a little dark in terms of like how frustrated and angry he gets. But, but you, we don't know him yet.

[00:43:16] So no, we don't know him. And we were like, oh, he's in love with Laurie. He's trying to save her. But this is just dark because he's the one who suggests they do a sweep.

[00:43:27] Um, and you think how pre-med, and also just like a reality check, how would he explain that back at the camp? Like, oh, um, we went out. I'm the only one that's come back. Rick's been shot. Funny story. Thought he was a walker.

[00:43:41] Anyway, I'm your dad now, Carl. Let's move on. Like I just, it's anyway, it's bizarre. You had to all worked out, you know, he told Dale they should be wearing reflective vests.

[00:43:50] I think he was going to claim that he saw Rick eating some berries off of a bush somewhere. So you think it was a health and safety issue? You think he was going to report back?

[00:44:02] Rick was just moving so gracefully through the woods that I was convinced he was a deer. Perfect. That makes complete sense. I mean, he looked, he looks more realistic than some of the deer we will see on this show.

[00:44:13] So, oh, we've got a deer coming up soon, actually. I'm looking forward to that. Oh gosh, yes. What provokes Shane to go dark is you can see that Laurie and Rick are reconnecting. There's a really nice moment of communication with Laurie and Rick where there's a wee I

[00:44:30] love you moment where they both seem to mean it, which is very cute. Shane deeply frustrated that Laurie is, I mean, the Laurie thing. I don't know. He's frustrated that Laurie is not backing him on what he sees as the most viable plan.

[00:44:45] He says something like you're playing, like he says something that indicates if he doesn't think this, he at least hopes that she's just pretending to be in this family because Rick's back, but I know you really love me. That kind of vibe, you know? Absolutely.

[00:45:01] And she's like, nope, get out of my marriage. He talks about a habit that he needs to break. Like you're a habit. That's another thing I need to break. Like go away Shane. You're faultless. But he's angry. He's like you're my twin flame. Yeah.

[00:45:15] He is raging about that. And then he and Rick have a conversation in which Rick makes the throwaway comment of if it was your family, you'd feel the same. And that hits like… What you say to me boy? Uh huh.

[00:45:28] That hits like the raw nerve of like Shane had it all. He had the wife, he had the family, he had the kid and Rick's come back and to his eye fucked it all up. And that's what sets him off.

[00:45:38] And it's also like challenging his position as leader too of the camp, you know? And that is the moment where he becomes a sympathetic dark Shane to me. And yeah, I'd forgotten that Dale was integral in that moment.

[00:45:52] I don't know if they intended for that to be as funny as it is. I totally forgot it too. So it was such a joy. Absolute lol. Just the way it pulls out and Dale's like, oh Jesus. I love it. My favorite moment. So good. Yeah.

[00:46:06] He's sympathetic and what would make him sympathetic is if he would just go talk to someone and just say, okay, I got to let go of Laurie. Yeah. And that's it. But there's this dark possessiveness that is going to get pretty real in the next episode as well.

[00:46:25] That is just, yeah, I forgot how quick of a turn it was with Shane, but. But I mean, there's, he's all throughout season two and I have come to think differently about some one thing in particular in season two that I felt really strongly about when we

[00:46:42] covered it the first time. So there's a lot more to talk about with him. Oh, that's, that's a tease. I'm not going to tell you what it is without just going through the conversation. It's when he shoots Otis. Oh, okay. Okay. In the leg. Yeah.

[00:47:00] So we'll get to it. I would feel like there are some days honestly where if I could I shoot Peter in the leg because he's slowing me down. So like no shade Shane. I'm sure the feeling's mutual though. Oh no, no, it's definitely not. It's not.

[00:47:13] It's definitely Peter. You'd be amazed how long one man can spend looking for his keys trying to get out of the house. Awful. Our house is not that big. It's really not. You gotta find the keys though. Shooting him won't help. Terrible, terrible, awful.

[00:47:30] She doesn't need to shoot me. I don't have keys. I've got no way of getting out. This is why it's good that we have gun control in the UK. I'll just do a short point about Laurie since you brought her up.

[00:47:45] He's kind of, Rick is kind of getting vulnerable with her because the camp just got attacked and he's like, you know, do you think that was my fault because I wasn't here? And she's like, and then yeah, but we have guns now.

[00:48:00] And she's like, yeah, we have guns, but we lost people. Neither one of you is entirely wrong. So she's kind of not being fully supportive like he wants. And he's kind of like, what about going to the CDC? He wants her support with that too.

[00:48:14] And she's like, well, it's uncertain, you know, it's like, and I think there's probably a lot of people like, come on, Laurie, be a supportive wife. But I thought it was a great scene because she's being really honest with him, but she's

[00:48:28] keeping eye contact the whole time, staying connected. She's like vibing. Communication was great. I love you. Yeah. I love you. I'm going to tell you the truest truth here. They even say, I love you, but she's not going to sugarcoat it. I prefer pretending.

[00:48:41] I mean, no, I prefer honesty. I prefer pretending. You know, like being honest with each other, especially when it's just the two of them together. And so I don't judge Laurie for this.

[00:48:54] But then when Shane comes and tries to use her as leverage and then she kind of changed her tune a little bit and says, I was just telling Shane, I think we should trust your gut to Rick.

[00:49:04] And I think that was pretty good too, because when you're alone together and you're in a vulnerable moment, then she can give her honest thoughts. But then when this kind of threat comes along and it's sort of he's an outsider now, Shane

[00:49:14] is as far as their marriage is concerned, to put up a strong front in front of him. So I guess, I mean, I don't know, maybe she should have been a little more supportive.

[00:49:23] I do have that wonder too, but for the most part, I think I support how she handled that. Do you think if she wasn't feeling guilty about Shane, she would have been more in favor of Fort Benning? Maybe. Yeah. I wonder if that's another thing that comes in.

[00:49:39] And it also brings to the fore that she didn't tell Rick about Shane. So I don't think that was a very good thing to do. That could have helped with a lot of this actually, because then Rick could try to do

[00:49:50] something about it and he could understand that he shouldn't go do sweeps with Shane. Yeah. And then one last thing about Laurie, when they're at the CDC and the door's locked and Shane's like, I told you, and I'm like, that's not helping, dude.

[00:50:03] And Laurie's saying we can't be this far into the city after dark. I'm like, that is a good point. And you should have timed this better. Like, don't get there right as the sun is setting. Because what if the door's locked?

[00:50:16] So yeah, I think Shane and Laurie are not the most subtle when they were having that conversation outside the RV. I was like, oh, this is quite a risky conversation. Then Rick comes from two feet away and he's like, what are we talking about?

[00:50:31] And I'm like, oh my God, these people are going to get caught. They played it off, I guess. Yeah, they brazened it out. All right, Peter, got another one? Well, you actually, Lucy kind of segued me nicely into it. Talking about my keys.

[00:50:51] No, I promise we're not talking about my keys anymore. I know where they are. Where are they, Peter? They're in this drawer. Don't tell her where they are. She'll have no reason to keep you around. I'll have no reason to keep you around once you find them.

[00:51:05] No, it was actually Laurie talking about it getting dark outside the CDC. And what I was really interested in here, because we hear Morgan talk about it getting dark as well, and I'm pretty sure it's episode one. Maybe it's episode two.

[00:51:22] Morgan tells Rick that it's more dangerous at night, that somehow the zombies are more active. Which is one of these little ideas that they're evidently playing around with in season one. They largely jettison. I think that's kind of gone in later seasons.

[00:51:37] But it's kind of fun to see them playing around with little ideas that they won't use. And we see the same thing. I think, Jason, you were right about those kind of zombie flashes that Jim and Shane have. You're right.

[00:51:53] When you put those two together, at that point it seems like the show is leaning towards this is what everybody sees. And I think you're right that that goes and they kind of tweak it, I would argue a little bit

[00:52:07] into more people have fever hallucinations and dreams, which is better. But again, these are little ideas that shows trying out and evidently they're seeing what works. And the other one that really jumps out to me more through this season, I think, than this episode

[00:52:24] are the kind of faster, slightly more sophisticated zombies in season one. You've got a little bit of tool use. I would say most of the time they're faster than zombies in later seasons, maybe a bit more agile.

[00:52:39] And evidently these are all cases where the show looked back and said, no, these aren't quite what we want it to be about. Until they decided they did later and they made that canonical with the whole variant idea. Yeah, which I think is cool.

[00:52:55] I'm quite into the fast zombies. Me too. I wish they would have kept it. Yeah, but it's interesting that they decided that wasn't the tone for the walking dead, the main show. Actually, Jason, you've kind of answered the question I was going to ask anyway,

[00:53:09] which is were any of these things that the two of you would like to have held on to? Would you have liked It's More Dangerous at Night or probably not zombie strobing every time someone got bit? Zombie strobing? I love the zombie strobing.

[00:53:23] That's how I spend my weekends, y'all. I'm in two minds. I think there was a point where the zombies became almost comically not a threat, but then we just watched the finale of Fear this week. So I feel like everything in The Walking Dead is Oscar worthy now.

[00:53:42] I'm like, yes, it was all brilliant. Maybe the day and night thing. I think I'm happy with how things panned out, but it would have been interesting to see any of those variables in action. Yeah, for me, I would have rather they stayed faster.

[00:54:03] You know, they were jogging and climbing gates and using tools and also felt like they retained a little bit more of their humanity. I think they got rid of that too. And they seemed to more like dehumanized pests, which took away the drama of it to an extent.

[00:54:21] But also there is part of me that's like, well, maybe that would just be too hard to watch people. Emotionally wrecked every week. So that part I'm not so sure, but the part about them being faster and using tools, I think that would have been better.

[00:54:33] I need them to be more threatening than they were later on. But the day night thing, probably not because that would then take away a lot of situations with zombies in the day. And that makes them less threatening too. If they're only out at night,

[00:54:45] then you just don't go out at night, go out in the day. I guess you end up in Game of Thrones with the Battle of Winterfell, where it's all, everything is set. It's so dark. Sounds really cool. You can't see anything. The long night. Yeah, yeah. That's it.

[00:55:04] Yeah. Yeah. My TV showed that a little better than most, I think, which I felt pretty fortunate about. We get it Jason, you're ace. You have a good TV. Okay, we've got a crap little TV. And it was summer in Scotland, so we couldn't see anything.

[00:55:22] We have established we have a crap gigantic projection. Oh yeah, we have a crap gigantic projector and it is very fuzzy. We just got a smear of black across the wall. Yeah, Walking Dead destinies didn't look that weird to us really.

[00:55:35] That's how season two looked, was it not? One more zombie thing. The term walkers. Rick says to Morgan over the radio, or he's trying to radio Morgan, last night walkers came out of the woods. And I thought, okay, you're saying walkers because you're talking to Morgan

[00:55:54] and you know that's the term he used. And Morgan in this episode is still calling them geeks. But then Daryl does say zero tolerance for walkers and I'm probably reading too much into it, but it could be that it shows he's subconsciously aligning himself with Rick already,

[00:56:07] you know, using the term that this new guy uses. Yeah, the rest of my points are not like big, chonky points. Just on the Morgan point, I like that when Rick said the city belongs to the dead now, that's a cool line.

[00:56:28] He's very dramatic on his phone calls to Morgan. He's like very much like, this is very intense emotion. It was nice to kind of bookend the action with that as well. I think we got to give a shout out to the fact that we get

[00:56:46] all of Carol's rage at Ed in this episode. Oh yeah. Dark Shane, I can live without. Dark Carol, bring it. Yes, all of it. And I just remembered her just wailing away at his corpse and crying. I'm sorry. It was in my head, but watching it now,

[00:57:11] she only did it three times I think, so not as many as I had in my head. And her performance was just so good. She's sad to be doing this. It's not just rage. There is rage in there, but there's a lot in there. It's pain.

[00:57:30] It's pure pain. It's like you were a monster, you've brutalized me, you've led me to this, and I'm doing this now. I did quite like the dire on the background. It's like Jesus, he's having a bit of a Dale moment. Bloody hell.

[00:57:49] I'm not trying to say anything nice about Ed, but it's complicated. You've been with someone for many years and there's good times. But yeah, he got what he deserved. Absolutely. Even if that was all Carol ever did, even if that moment of her pain,

[00:58:05] because that's the other thing, I think it relates to what Peter was saying, that feels real. There are women and men and non-binary people in the world who, if they had the chance to decimate the corpse of the person who abused them, would do it

[00:58:21] because of the pain that they feel. That still feels very real. Fast forward four seasons and Carol's taking out people who have the flu just in case. There is a spectrum, but this moment I think is powerful both in and of itself

[00:58:37] and powerful in terms of where she ends up later. It seems like Carol comes out of this slightly lighter. She has a moment in the next episode where we speak about TS-19 that I'd forgotten about, but reminded me that Carol is actually amazing and often saves the day.

[00:58:54] Hmm. Alright. I want to talk about Radio Wing Morgan. So, they use radios all the time on FEAR and they're like magic radios and they're ridiculous. I think it's more believable that radios would still be a thing 30 days in or whatever right now. I can believe this.

[00:59:17] I also like that one of the first things Rick says is that Atlanta isn't what they thought because that was his excuse to want to go get his radio in Atlanta to warn Morgan and Duane that Atlanta's not safe. So, they stuck, you know,

[00:59:33] they were consistent with that. But he's also just trying to connect so that they can meet up. He says, as you said, do not enter the city. It belongs to the dead now. I was asking myself did Morgan hear any of this? We had this conversation.

[00:59:50] Where's Morgan at? Do you know? Yeah. So, I don't know exactly where he is but I have a clip from because the next time we see Morgan is season 3 episode 12 clear. So, here's a clip. He's, you know, delirious. He doesn't remember Rick. He's out of his mind.

[01:00:10] You found me. You fed me. You told me what's happening. You saved me. My name is Rick Grimes. You know me. I'm not wearing a dead man's face. I gave you this. I said I'd turn it on every day at dawn so you could find me. Rick?

[01:00:41] I know you. Oh, man, damn it. I know you. I know who you are. You said you'd turn yours on at dawn. That's what you said. I mean, I hadn't worked up to it yet and then I did. On the roof. Every morning for days,

[01:01:07] for weeks, being my boy and being me. Just static, though. Nothing but static and then nothing but nothing. You weren't there. You were never there. No, not when I tried. You said you would turn on your radio every day at dawn.

[01:01:32] You said that you would turn on your radio every day at dawn and you were not! So he's a little mad. I'd say Morgan's feeling abandoned. Sounds like he didn't hear it. Sounds like he also didn't do it at the right time on the first date. It's cool.

[01:01:55] It's Morgan's fault. He had to work up to it. I think he had more of a thicker southern accent in that portrayal than he was doing on Fear. He's so good. It says a lot that he can cross over to Fear

[01:02:08] and we can still say Lenny James is amazing. Yet he must have just not been listening that day, I guess. He didn't start listening until after Rick stopped calling. Rick gave it what two goes and then he was like, alright, that's it. He got pushed farther away

[01:02:29] or something like that. Excuses, excuses. You just had some notes left. I have like 5 million notes. No, I don't have 5 million notes. I had a little point about Jenner just so we could get a sense of his life. I couldn't remember if the pullback

[01:02:51] to reveal there was nobody else at the CDC was as big of a gasp the first time around but I like the actor who plays him very much and I think they do a good job of setting up what's to come. Yeah, no Emmerich

[01:03:06] and the stakes of what is happening when Rick and the group get to the door. There's also a moment on the I found the music of the drive to the CDC quite overbearing. I know you've said you're not that keen on the music in the first season, Jason

[01:03:22] and usually I disagree with that but I found it a bit like this is very movie-esque hard string emotions but there's this scene where Laurie's kind of smiling in the car and I'm sort of like, I wonder what's behind that smile. I forgot to mention

[01:03:38] that Rick and Shane are kind of disagreeing about whether or not Rick should have left and I guess the one thing none of us have spoken about really is Andrea and Amy. Was that one of your points, Jason? Go ahead. It's a really intimate and beautiful scene

[01:03:57] with Andrea and Amy and scary a little bit too. But I found myself kind of thinking fuck yeah, Andrea when she took control of the situation shot Amy said what she needed to say and then shot her I was like that's really beautiful

[01:04:13] I didn't know what to make of the Dale and Andrea scene in the middle about it the anecdote about Dale's dead wife I actually had to ask Peter to interpret that for me It is saying that Dale cares about Andrea and Amy

[01:04:24] and empathizes with them. It is also about the acceptance of death which again is interesting given where Dale and Andrea end up with that Because it seems like maybe Andrea's delusional like she's not accepting that Amy's dead and when Amy starts to breathe again because she's reanimating

[01:04:42] I think the first time you watch this you're thinking oh, she's out of her mind and she's out of her mind and doesn't realize that she's about to become a zombie and be dangerous so you're like come on, get away from her dummy

[01:04:54] why are you sitting there apologizing but then when she shoots her in hindsight you realize no, she had full awareness of everything and she's just getting this off her chest about not having been there for Amy and knowing that watching it now

[01:05:10] I started to well up. It was really touching She wanted it to be her and nobody else and yeah, she didn't express that in any kind of verbal way but looking at it now I actually have a lot of respect for that and

[01:05:28] that moment where Rick comes up to her and she spins on him with the gun and says I know how the safety works I I thought that was too much don't point your gun at somebody say something She does like doing that with Rick it has been established

[01:05:46] I thought it paid off it was a very emotional kind of scene it's the zombie turn I think everyone remembers even those who dipped out early, that's one that really sticks with you Did you tell me that in the comics Dale and Andrea are a couple

[01:06:02] Yeah, kind of a throuple with Amy as well I remember when you told me that I was like oh god, is Dale just telling Andrea that he's single Did I ever tell you my wife is dead and Andrea's like not the moment You keep saying that

[01:06:22] Dale, I know Dale, okay I have this theory that I maintain is true and keep an eye out for it in rom-coms which is that cinema is completely convinced that the sexiest relationship status is widower Every romantic hero in every rom-com always dead wife

[01:06:44] what is so hot about dead wife I know why, because it shows that this guy is a guy who will commit and his marriage ended through no fault of his own and he's also he's wounded and has a big heart or I don't know You've got Jason swooning

[01:07:00] Jason's like oh fuck, widow, yeah that's exactly my thing What else about this the only other thing I add I forgot she put the necklace on her so the necklace, the little dolphin thing or mermaid or whatever did get on her there was a jump scare because

[01:07:22] I was worried as she has her hands next to Amy's on her caressing her throat or whatever that Amy might bite her and then Dale with his pickaxe, I think that was on purpose I totally jumped Yes, the edit, it was like oh yeah

[01:07:36] that was a good one I think, well we'll talk about it next week but I think this is really what leads Andrea to want to commit suicide Yeah, I mean it's I mean by the time they get to the CDC Amy's been dead less than 24 hours

[01:07:52] everything happens so close together a lot of things that I was very judgmental about I'm now like re-looking at the terms, re-looking at them in terms of like oh, that was not that long ago even though we had to wait a year for it

[01:08:04] it actually happened two days ago like that's, yeah Okay, I only have one more point it's about the CDC and wildfire Yes In Jenner's tape it says Wildfire MSB 3417 active begin transmission and he just says Jenner here, it's day 194 since wildfire was declared

[01:08:30] and 63 days since the disease abruptly went global So I've noticed looking at the Walking Dead fan wiki, because you know I look in there for, to get information from the podcast that it has references throughout to the zombie virus as the wildfire virus so that's what

[01:08:50] somebody who, they decided that's what it's called and based on this it seems like yeah, that's maybe what they intended In the wiki of this episode it says the title of the episode refers to the name of the virus study given by the CDC

[01:09:08] I think I might have typed that wrong but, name of the virus given by the CDC the origins of its name could be due to the fact that in one of Dr. Edwin Jenner's video logs he explains that the infection spreads like a wildfire

[01:09:20] and then just talking about what the virus is, we all know this but I think it's kind of interesting to go over it Wildfire virus is a contagious disease that creates zombies in the Walking Dead The virus originated from La Biomedicine DDMI in France

[01:09:36] which I'd say the jury's still out but they are heavily suggesting that's what happened There are fingers being pointed at the French for sure Yeah, and that's if you haven't seen World Beyond or The Daryl Show, that's stuff that's sort of playing out in there

[01:09:50] and was discovered by the Center for Disease Control on 15th April 2010 The disease quickly spread worldwide and was declared a pandemic on the 25th of August 2010 The outbreak caused the collapse of society which resulted in the end of modern civilization and the near extinction of the human race

[01:10:06] The virus initially transmits through airborne particles and possibly direct contact. Following death, wildfire reactivates the hindbrain and resurrects deceased hosts into mindless aggressive vectors for the virus Zombies will attempt to devour any living being, spreading the active agent through bites, scratches, and other forms

[01:10:24] of contamination. The active agent results in an infection that causes death within 48 hours and subsequent resurrection. Due to the high infection and mortality rate, the planet was overrun by reanimated hosts Like I said, we kind of all knew all of that The only other question I have

[01:10:44] well, two things One, we saw some stuff with Jenner at the end of the World Beyond series that most, I think, people didn't watch. So I'll play some clips from that next time because it's more of a Jenner episode you know, might as well

[01:11:02] And then I just have a question. When Jenner was in his lab and all of a sudden it was like full decontamination and it burned up all his samples Why did that happen? Jenner knocks over some sort of solvent Remember, it's saying that they've detected a corrosive gas

[01:11:22] Okay Yeah, because it's very acidic or something And it burned up TS-19 which is, spoilers, his wife Yeah IMDb Deep Dive. Not that interesting today folks The CDC would not let them film in the actual CDC So what we see as the CDC

[01:11:44] I'm going to keep saying C in CDC Sounds like I'm in a Dr. Seuss book C in the CDC is actually the Cobb Energy Performing Arts Centre in Georgia Someone on IMDb speculates that Wildfire is a homage to Brighton's book The Andromeda Strain

[01:12:04] about a lab pathogen. So I don't know if that's something that the showrunner has built in Darabont's plan for the show was to stick to the comic but to have detours along the way and this was the first and I think one of the only Darabont detours

[01:12:16] because he left the show in season 2 I kept meaning to mention that I don't know if you know this Peter but Robert Kirkman, the writer of the comic book that the show's based on was on staff writing and I think he and Darabont, I don't know if you'd

[01:12:30] say clashed but heavily disagreed over this Kirkman did not want them to go to the CDC and he didn't like either like the exposition of anything about the virus. He just wanted it to be a mystery but Darabont insisted Yeah I was I was aware of that

[01:12:48] idea that Kirkman had which you can see playing out in all the subsequent seasons. They just jettison that almost completely. In fact in a way they they don't just jettison the point but they labour it by having Eugene come along and pretend

[01:13:04] that there's a cure and there's a solution and it all turns out to be complete nonsense So yeah I was aware of it and it's kind of what makes these episodes interesting in a way isn't it? Because there's this completely different show

[01:13:18] that could have played out if Darabont had won out that argument Sure. I mean with Daryl I feel like we're getting back to some of that which is at this point I feel like kind of interesting The tanks that you see

[01:13:32] and I'm sorry for any tank experts listening because I can barely read my own handwriting outside the CDC are Leyland Chieftain Mark 10s. They are a British kind of tank designated FV4201 They have an inverted V on them which shows that they were probably used

[01:13:48] as part of the Gulf War Coalition The Defence Department wouldn't allow their own tanks to be used and that's why British tanks are being used there In the RV when Jim is sweating it out you see an upside down American flag. This is a universal distress

[01:14:04] signal to see a flag upside down This is Emma Bell's last appearance as Amy. In season 3 we hear her in voice only when Rick is on the phone at the prison This is also, and Jim yeah, and this is also Morales' last appearance until the excerpt

[01:14:20] we heard earlier in All Out War In terms of the apocalypse timeline this episode spans day 62 which is the aftermath of the attack and day 63 which is pointed out by Jenner himself and takes place when they get up to the CDC. That's the 63rd day

[01:14:38] since Rick wakes up from his coma. And that is your IMDb Deep Dive and Apocalypse Timeline Cool Alright, Peter did Lucy tell you about Only on the Walking Dead? I actually did not Sorry! I was really looking forward to finding out what this was

[01:14:56] You just say a little something that would only happen on the Walking Dead. Did you have one Lucy? Yeah, Only on the Walking Dead would you see two kids staring at the side of an RV to wave goodbye to someone dying against

[01:15:08] a tree and not looking that traumatized by it I like when Jim's sat down by the tree and goes Oh, another tree The breeze is nice. Bye Uncle Jim Mine is Only on the Walking Dead would there be an episode centered on no less than eight hand-wringing choices

[01:15:28] Should Rick have gone to get the bag of guns? Should the survivors bury their friends who died in the zombie attack or burn them? Should they kill a guy who was infected? Season 4 Carol would say absolutely even if it's just the flu

[01:15:42] Should they let Andrea have a moment with her infected sister or snipe her from afar? Should Shane shoot Rick and take his family? Should they go to the CDC or Fort Benning? Should they leave soon-to-be zombie Jim by the side of the road? Should Jenner open the CDC

[01:15:58] or let these strangers die? I just started writing all these out and I'm like Wow, yeah, there's so many like Oh my god, what are we gonna do here? Which that really played into the Telltale Walking Dead game by the way. Only you are the one

[01:16:12] who are forced to make all these choices and it really did feel like Yeah, this is how I feel when I watch The Walking Dead. And that is why I got so stressed out. I never finished that game Peter can verify I was like, I can't do this!

[01:16:26] He's like, okay, you don't have to play it Do you have one, Pete? Ah, yes Only on The Walking Dead would you watch a woman slamming a pickaxe into her husband's head and think What a beautiful moment of grief Triumphant

[01:16:46] I was just so proud of her, you know Just so proud A serious threat to untold numbers of citizens The people it kills get up and kill Are they slow moving, Chief? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up This is a Walking Dead Cast News Update

[01:17:28] Okay, just one thing today and it's about what we already talked about The Walking Dead Destiny's game came out You can choose different story paths for the characters I think it only covers seasons 1 through 4 It does, yeah It's a great idea. Seems like the game's not so great

[01:17:42] Poor graphics, missing characters Bad reviews IGN has a headline The Walking Dead Destiny's the latest worst game of 2023 contender I recommend if you haven't go on the Walking Dead Reddit because some people have put sort of best, worst bits up and yeah, Peter was I work upstairs and

[01:18:04] this morning Peter had to come up the stairs to see if I was okay because I was laughing so hard at some of it I would still play it If it goes on sale I will play it but the graphics are not amazing and yeah, some of it's

[01:18:18] just quite funny I saw Merle's Teaching Kindergartners or something If any listeners have played it and have a different take, let us know I haven't played it I've only heard a few things I do know Nathan Eshelman got it

[01:18:34] Oh did he? I'd love to know what Nathan thought I think he said just what you said If you're a Walking Dead fan, maybe wait until it's on sale I can't quite describe the graphics in enough detail but there's this scene where Rick finds out Laurie has died

[01:18:54] someone's reposted it on Reddit with the headline Why does it sound like Rick is passing a kidney stone and I just I lost my mind at that point and Peter was like okay maybe go have some coffee now, stop laughing at Reddit Jason, am I right in thinking

[01:19:08] it's the same publisher that published the Gollum game this year as well Oh is it? And that one got panned too They're having a bad year Yeah, they need to switch something up Did they just reuse Gollum for Rick

[01:19:26] because it kind of looks like it in some of the scenes Anyway, I will still play it Carl, my precious Carl Alright, let's move on to Lister Mowes' Grounds of Grunts Peter, would you like to go first? I would love to First up we have Monica McGuire

[01:19:50] who says I'll just say I didn't like Laurie from the beginning She so played those two against each other as we will see and she was so mean to Shane and could have handled the situation so much better I remember really not liking

[01:20:06] Laurie and I can't remember why yet but I will come back to you on that Monica Yeah, yeah Me too, and now as I'm watching it, I'm finding myself feeling mostly more sympathetic towards her, which is really interesting

[01:20:22] I don't know if that's going to hold up, but so far I'm not saying I'm completely sympathetic but way less, feeling way less judgmental. The biggest thing for me as I've said a few times already is I think she should have told Rick what happened with Shane Yeah

[01:20:36] Our friend, Lara Willoughby Swink who I think we've all met, which is cool has shared some rewatch observations. As annoying as Andrea later turns out to be, this was a very touching scene between her and Amy and Amy's transformation was probably the most beautiful

[01:20:50] one we ever see on the show It's almost sweet in the way she reaches out to her sister Don't think we ever quite see the zombification of a character like that again Jim's transformation was great to see again too. The way he describes

[01:21:02] the decline of his body and how his bones feel like glass and the infection takes over is never again depicted in the same way I remember when Carl dies of a bite, it looks like he just has the flu. Though Darryl

[01:21:14] can be so callous in his words, he is no nonsense and speaks the uncomfortable truths that other characters won't. And in his first scene with Carol, we get a glimpse of future Carol as she nonchalantly takes a pickaxe to Ed's brain

[01:21:26] Jason, I like that you're taking a fair approach to examining characters and behaviours as we're re-watching a 13 year old show through an updated lens. When people have described old Darryl as racist, I never considered him that because of actions his character will take in the future

[01:21:40] Even in the last episode he expresses admiration for Glenn even though he doesn't have a politically correct way of doing it But I don't think he was ever bigoted at heart the way that Merle was I think his words were the product of his environment

[01:21:52] the same way we all said things back in the 80s that we'd never say today I think we'll see in future episodes that a person's race or sexuality is not something Darryl takes defence to. It's more are you part of our survivor group or not Fair point, Lara?

[01:22:06] Yeah, totally agree with that Thanks, Lara Nathan Eshelman says wondering what would have happened if Jenner didn't contaminate TS-19 would have been a great what-if episode for Walking Dead There's no sure thing it would have led to a cure but it looked promising

[01:22:24] I guess it's a good thing the CDC was a bust or we wouldn't have 10 more seasons to talk about Yeah, it's kind of silly that he accidentally did something that messed it all up after all of that He was sleepy. He was tired

[01:22:40] It's like, humanity's at stake. Be careful, asshole Humanity's at stake Wear your minion suit better, you dickhead And we have Danielle I apologize if I mispronounced your surnames there I like this episode a lot It's sad and it really shows how much everyone is unravelling

[01:23:00] The way Amy came back was so calm and slow, as if Walker was disoriented and confused I think that's the only time that we saw that Andrea really let Amy get awfully close to her but I suppose at this point she didn't

[01:23:14] really care if she lived or died as evidenced in the next episode Good point Jim's decision to be left behind alive is the only time I can remember seeing a character choose to let the virus kill them rather than being put down ahead of time

[01:23:28] Am I forgetting anyone? I do have a thought about that, actually It would have been cool to run into Jim as a walker at some point Shane seriously considering shooting Rick was intense How long was Dale standing there just watching him? Would he have intervened

[01:23:46] or just let Shane pull the trigger? And then the way Shane tries to talk Dale out of what he clearly saw is kind of funny Yes, Danielle, it really is I'm surprised Shane didn't kill Dale right then and there to protect his secret

[01:24:00] That's it for me this time Looking forward to the pod as always That is a good point How long was Dale there watching him? That moment lasted quite a while Who are you thinking of, P? I think Danielle's point is right that people don't embrace it. However,

[01:24:20] I think Sasha would count Oh yeah! The motivation is wildly different This is nothing about I'm just accepting my fate She doesn't choose to become a zombie That is true So she could try to get to Negan, right? So she could be on Star Trek That's right

[01:24:44] I don't think this is right I'm just remembering Eric Zombie Eric off in the distance and Aaron sees him I don't think that was a choice though but I did think Aaron should track him down and put him out of his misery as harsh as that sounds

[01:25:00] Just because I think there's a chance when you're a zombie it's not a fun life I think it seems really fun No, I don't You don't have any responsibilities Alright We have a call from Gloria Hernon Hey Lucy and Jason This is Gloria from Salem, Mass

[01:25:18] This is for episode 5 of the rewatch of The Walking Dead Andrea watching and waiting for Amy to turn was just heart breaking Pulling a gun on Rick was uncalled for though I mean bad form Andrea, bad form Carol swinging that ice pick at Ed It was gross

[01:25:40] Oh my god, early days That means they actually think help is out there and can do something if they're bitten So sad But they soon learn the truth I always liked Dale but he certainly was always in his business right? I mean

[01:26:02] I think Shane wanted to start a fight with Rick and then he actually contemplates shooting him What an asshole And of course Dale is right there Yep Oh my god, he is like always watching But when Eliza gave her doll to Sophia right before her family left

[01:26:24] Oh my god, as a mom that really got to me I felt so bad for Jim but I am glad that they gave him what he needed Then we get that lovely transmission Dr. Jenna, what a guy Spill some chemicals and voila Of course it's going to decontaminate

[01:26:44] Back to the wine for Jenna And finally he does the right thing I even thought Rick was crazy but nope Guess what Doors wide open I forget how much wine Jenna had left It's been so long but great to be rewatching They get to shower too

[01:27:04] God I don't remember Well off to the next one Take it easy guys Bye The doll Gloria Peter pointed out that's the doll that they find when they are looking for Sophia as well I didn't even notice that, it comes from Morales' daughter huh?

[01:27:24] Yeah I had forgotten that entirely Yeah I really hope they were planning that because it's a really nice touch Alright we have a couple of general messages Yes Brooke Seton says Hello Jason and Lissy, I found your podcast at the beginning

[01:27:40] of this year when I decided to rewatch all Walking Dead Universe content before all the spin-offs came out So it's funny that when I finally got caught up you guys are starting your rewatch Sorry Brooke, we sent you back to square one

[01:27:52] I've loved every minute of the podcast I'm so glad I found y'all and I've lost count of how many times I've rewatched the first seasons of The Walking Dead so I'm excited to hear all your thoughts on it Thanks so much for starting this podcast Jason

[01:28:04] It has brought me a lot of joy And Lissy, I'm so happy you became a regular co-host on the pod. Not that all the others weren't great but you and Jason are my favourite Your banter is so fun and your analysis

[01:28:14] is on point. Lots of love from a new Zed head named Brooke Oh Brooke! Amazing Yeah nice, glad you found us Also Brooke, let us know if you work in the army or not because the way these comments are formatted Peter thought your name was General Brooke Seaton

[01:28:28] so if you are in the army let me know about tax It's general comments from Brooke Seaton It's general comments Brooke's like, no I'm sergeant actually I'm like alright, yeah, cool And our friend Dina says Hello Jason and Lissy So in doing this 50,000 rewatch

[01:28:46] I don't know what that means, 50,000th of time I'm concentrating on the use of clocks and time in the series because it's an aspect of the show that fascinates me I want to go back to school and write a paper on it

[01:28:58] From the start, time is almost a secondary character from the stopped clock in the first episode to Aslan's watch in Daryl Dixon I think people tend to see what they want to see in religion and converts really go deep into the abyss

[01:29:12] The Walking Dead is a religion and I'm definitely a convert. Therefore I may be bat shit crazy like Bev in Midnight Mass and reading into something that just isn't there For all the reasons Jason and I must clarify that we are not religion or cult leaders

[01:29:26] and The Walking Dead is not a religion You cannot blame us for anything that you do as a result of the podcast, please go on Why have I been making these payments all this time? Shut up, no reason Just read the fine print Just read the fine print

[01:29:40] And yet as you discussed in your analysis of Vathos Dale quotes Faulkner and yes, key words from this quote as episode title season 5 maybe, yes season 5 at the end I forget but quote forget was one of the titles Rick always has a watch

[01:29:58] gives it away to the stranger in season 4 that was another Sam right? That's another guy named Sam That was Robin Lloyd Wright Robin Lloyd Taylor, not Robin Lloyd Wright He was an architect Frank Lloyd Wright, Robin Lloyd Taylor He's got beautiful designs gardens It's really good

[01:30:20] Anyway, what was going on here? Rick always has a watch, gives it away to the stranger in season 4 offering that stranger the gift of time Carol gives Rick Ed's watch Oh my god I forgot that's where that came from Maybe giving away her past time with Ed

[01:30:34] I like it. Herschel of course gives Glenn generational time with his pocket watch and then at some point says I never know what time it is anymore, it's always just right now which I also like

[01:30:46] I'm a bit ahead of you in the rewatch but not by too much In an upcoming episode featuring Daryl and Beth Daryl inexplicably writes a grandfather clock Why? What's the point? It begins ticking He starts time again But what does it symbolize? Does it symbolize anything?

[01:31:02] Is this theme a thing? Am I crazy? I'd love to hear if your other listeners are tracking this too More likely it's just that I've had too much free time and paranoia during COVID Maybe the set and costume designers really love clocks P.S. What a fabulous analysis

[01:31:20] you guys did for Vatos Made my day Oh thanks Dina, I think you're onto something with the clocks That's fascinating I remember Carol sees all the watches at Terminus lying out on the table and that is really harrowing It's like something out of World War II

[01:31:36] or something and she spots Rick's watch I presume Ed's watch as well and Herschel's watch and picks them up for the group which is really important I have definitely noticed they focus on watches and clocks a lot more watches, like you've laid out really well here

[01:31:56] I mean, I can't think of any for sure overarching theme but I always thought kind of what they were saying at this fish fry in the last episode like why do you even need that anymore? But maybe it's sort of holding on to something from before

[01:32:12] whether that's the idea of keeping track of time in such a granular way is important or not, but also watches are known to be long lasting heirlooms that get handed down so they're a way of remembering what's come to past as seen in the Pulp Fiction scene where

[01:32:30] Christopher Walken No, I won't go back into that again You know, that's a reference we mention a lot So will you give Nico your Apple Watch or do you think it will be defunct? Yeah, it's up my... no What level of watcher resistance does an Apple Watch have?

[01:32:48] Well, I guess we'll find out The problem is Apple Watches are... they go obsolete The first round of Apple Watches they had a gold version that went for $10,000 and those are now Apple will not service them because they're obsolete you know, like five or seven years later

[01:33:04] or whatever it is If you're the kind of person that buys a gold Apple Watch I don't have sympathy, but I'm looking at Jason's wrist and it's fine, I'm not gonna say anything It's not gold It's fine, it's regular Peter had a terrible smart watch

[01:33:18] that we nearly broke up over because it was giving us such bad sat-nav directions on a holiday once I was like, I'm done, I'm done with this watch You used it for about eight years I was like, kill it, kill it

[01:33:30] But yeah, we got a new one, thankfully I did stick very doggedly to that watch for a long time Worst for that, he's currently got a phone that's what, seven years old? Anyway, sorry Take it off the pod, Lucy, take it off the pod

[01:33:44] Alright, that is our show episode 553 Thanks so much for listening everyone Thank you Peter for coming on and joining us for this one, it was a pleasure Yay! Thank you, and thank you for always supporting my podcasting and re-watching even though sometimes you're just

[01:34:04] on your Switch and I'm writing notes I second that Tears of the Kingdom exists, I can sit happily anywhere Peter, why would you play that when you could play Walking Dead Destinies, what's wrong with you? Next episode will be The Walking Dead Season 1 Episode 6 TS 19

[01:34:22] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts, I think I might have already mentioned this but I just started a new

[01:34:34] podcast on Squid Games and that Squid Game The Challenge reality show came out So it's a reality show rather than a sequel to the Yes. Okay They did it up the exact same way and apparently the contestants, they want to make it feel immersive so the

[01:34:56] Squid Game people will come out in their red hooded jumpsuits with their triangle or square faces and not break character and they never see any production staff or anything and it really caused them to have anxiety attacks and stuff and I'm sort of like, wasn't Squid

[01:35:12] Game supposed to be sort of a satire that was sort of speaking out against stuff like this and now you're just like, let's just actually do it That's society though isn't it It's what we do. I mean I'm gonna watch it so. Yeah you're like, I'm podcasting

[01:35:26] on it so hey We're actually, I mean we might talk about it a little bit We're podcasting about the series and then we'll pick up with season 2 when it comes out next year. Oh amazing Yeah. Cool. And I want to say this episode is made possible by Patreon

[01:35:40] supporters like Randall Stephenson who I think is Randy and he pledges support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabasi so thanks so much to Randy Randy's a treasure. If you sign up with the Patreon you can hear ad free episodes of Welcome to the White Lotus which features Randy

[01:36:00] I did not realise until this exact moment that one of the professors in my department at uni was called Randall Stephenson and I don't, you know it could be him it could be Randy, who knows. Oh maybe it is. There's a couple of Randy Stephensons All Randy Stephensons

[01:36:16] are welcome. Yeah maybe he really likes a bit of Walking Dead, who knew If he's listening, thanks for all the tuition Alright that is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit Monica McGuire