554: "TS-19" (TWD S1E6 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Podcastico Well and when Carl is in Italy or France he can have some then. What's gonna hurt, come on? Eww! Temple, that's my pet. What? I'm just kidding. You uh, you just staked your soda pop there bud. Not you Glenn. What?

[00:00:48] Drinking little man, I wanna see how red your face can get. Oh no! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Eww! Cast of Us. A Podcast dedicated to the show. Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy.

[00:01:21] And this is the Cast of Us Episode 554. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead Season 1 Episode 6 TS-19, also known as the Season 1 finale. Ooh! We finished a season already. I know well, I mean you've been mentioning how all these episodes

[00:01:51] Have happened within a few days and it's weird And so of our recordings we've recorded on episodes four five and six over the last like four days Plus we did the fear the Walking Dead finale and I started a podcast it for fun in the squid game cast

[00:02:05] So it's been a busy fucking week. I just woke up from my coma last Saturday Just Yeah, it's we start the show on D plus 59 and we finish it on Day plus 64. So it's five days are covered in season one It's just nuts

[00:02:25] It is but it kind of makes sense, you know, I mean, it's very decompressed storytelling It's all the little moments between people not like a lot of yeah plot So let's get into the finale Season one episode 6 TS 19. What do you think in general on rewatch? I

[00:02:45] enjoyed it and it just sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of style and what the Walking Dead is about even more so because like the Walking Dead is so I Don't know the forests of Georgia

[00:02:59] Walking dead cool on the forests of Georgia. So having them be in a bunker is It's Wild and there's a lot I like to it. I think I'm probably keener on this episode than you

[00:03:11] but my main thought is that I'm really itching to start season 2 and doing a rewatch is difficult because This week I I watched Four five and six for the first time last weekend cuz I knew we were gonna be recording back to back

[00:03:26] But that kind of muddled it for me because I was like, oh no, they're all kind of blurred in my head So I'm trying to ration myself and do it week by week

[00:03:33] Yeah, I'm only doing like always watching one episode podcasting then watching the next one and now I'm just like So yeah, I'm frustrated I mean I right now season 2 lives in my head as

[00:03:48] One of my least favorites if not my least favorite. I think season 8 is the worst, you know, we ranked him recently We did so I don't know if it'll still be like that when we go back

[00:04:01] I'm eager to find out but um, I know there were some really good episodes in there for sure. But uh this one always Lived in my head as my least favorite of season 1 and it still is after rewatch

[00:04:16] But it was enjoyable to watch the whole way through like it wasn't bad. It was just silly I thought some of the thing and then the weirdness of juxtaposing the silly sci-fi Ness of it with Subjects like sexual assault and suicide is

[00:04:34] Only on The Walking Dead, I guess. I don't know but I think it is But um, anyway, it was it was a it was good watch it was fun to

[00:04:49] Make fun in my head of the things. I thought were silly and now we get to talk about on the podcast So you want to go first?

[00:04:56] Yeah, I'm just I have to get it out of my system at the top and what goes down between Shane and Laurie in this episode Isn't that okay? It's horrible. And to me, this is one of the worst things Shane ever does he

[00:05:09] he assaults her plain and simple like it goes from being a In fact, I know it doesn't even start sweet. He comes into the room and closes the door behind him in an intimidating way He's drunk. He is abusive aggressive he

[00:05:25] Puts his hand between her legs and continues to grow creative when she said no, it's clear that she's in pain from what he's doing He is a piece of shit and it really upset me rewatching the episode because I was just like I'd forgotten how bad that was

[00:05:39] Yeah, it just upset me rewatching. I thought it was it was painful. It was Difficult. I think the way Laurie plays those first couple of moments. She doesn't love Shane He was he was a mistake like I believe that watching this

[00:05:52] I don't think she's torn about saying to him. I don't love you. I think she's genuinely like oh shit this went further than I intended it to I Just yeah, I find it awful. And the thing that really struck me is

[00:06:06] Laurie's lying in bed crying and Rick comes in and says we don't have to be afraid anymore And I just had this very clear thought in my head, which is like Women always have to be afraid Yeah

[00:06:16] Laurie is going to continue to be afraid because this has happened to her and I just felt so fucking sorry for her in that So yeah, Shane douchebag. I wish he'd gouged his eye out rather than just scratched his neck. But here we are especially in that

[00:06:30] In that situation she thinks she's gonna be locked in this place with this guy. Yeah, just assaulted her Imagine how terrifying that would be like to think I could have to live out the rest of my days in this underground bunker

[00:06:42] Yeah with this asshole who will not leave me alone living with my guilt With my sweet husband who's just come back from you know The dead and we're working on our shit and he's delighted and everyone else can relax and I can never

[00:06:56] Never let my guard down and I think it's going to really color for me. How have you season two watching it? Oh, yeah together. Well, I mean it did for me during season two

[00:07:05] There we had a lot of listeners who were team Shane and I just kept thinking back to this moment I'm like, I I can't be team Shane after this I mean There's things he did

[00:07:19] That we will debate and I I think I feel differently about some of them now where I might actually be more on his side But that doesn't change that

[00:07:29] That I think doesn't mean he's a good person just because he did some things that maybe I agree with later on Could he be redeemed? I was thinking about it and I'm like, well, he'd have to do this this and this

[00:07:41] That's the same thing I thought with Negan if yeah one would show a deep understanding of what he did and that it was wrong To that he showed remorse. He said he was sorry

[00:07:51] We felt it was honest and three probably most important that he would prove that he changed over a long period of time You know with new behaviors that showed or just disappeared like he wants to in season two. He wants to go away

[00:08:03] Well, I don't know if that would redeem him But if I'm just I don't know if it would read to you I think with redemption it has to come from Laurie and I don't know having

[00:08:13] Thankfully not been in that situation myself. I don't know if you can ever forgive someone for that, you know yeah, I guess you're right, but I mean I'm just saying if If I was Laurie maybe this is what I would want to see

[00:08:27] You know if he did anything less than that then he couldn't be redeemed, you know if he Made excuses or tried to what whitewash it away or just acted nice that wouldn't be enough

[00:08:39] You'd have to show that he really understood. Oh, no, that was wrong. That was bad. I'm sorry Let me Let me be a different person for a while to show you that you can trust me And yeah, like you're saying even then maybe not

[00:08:52] He he also I don't think shows much remorse in the moment. He seems shocked, but I don't think he seems sorry It's kind of ashamed but in a way Like or something and the next morning when he's like not like me at all was just kind of yeah

[00:09:08] I was just like jabbing at her Awful. Yeah Yeah, I just absolutely I just feel very strongly and I'll say this Rick would never do that No, it would Darrell neither of them would ever know

[00:09:25] I'm on the way he just has and that's that's the line for me. I think that is the line for me is how Some of these characters treat women Like the way Negan treats women is the reason I will never

[00:09:36] Be on side with him the way he has treated women That way too ironing your face after you steal his wife Exactly, but I think the the one that people forget is the coercion of women

[00:09:47] Yeah, I don't and just yeah, you don't famously neither of us do that's like all of our listeners have just hung up Season one and they're already talking about me and I'm like, I think he's a dickhead. But yeah, I just it shocked me because I'd

[00:10:01] Same with Carol and Ed and same with Shane punching Ed in the face again great Shane moment punching Ed in the face he deserved that but there's a hypocrisy there of I'm better than you Ed But in this moment is he like yeah

[00:10:15] He's doing part of the reason he's punching her is because he's frustrated. He just got turned down by Laurie. So exactly, I mean Just just awful and Sarah Wayne Cowleys was brilliant in that and you know what Bernthal was brilliant in it

[00:10:28] Yeah, it was a powerful scene and I I wouldn't be surprised if that was really hard for him to do. I would hope so He didn't say I mean with anyone yes, but I feel like he and Sarah Wayne Cowleys are actually quite good friends

[00:10:40] Like they always came off as being very Connected and yeah, just poor Laurie. She must have felt so alone and fucked up and mm-hmm I mean the way she reacted after he left and she because I think a lot of times in those situations You're kind of all

[00:10:57] tightly wound while the person that's a threat is still there and as soon as they leave then you can kind of let it out And the way she showed that just a little like it was so

[00:11:06] It made me feel a lot that scene, you know anger and sadness anguish and they just have this beautiful Sort of symbolic shower cleansing scene where you see like lots of cool stuff about all the different people who are sharing like so like

[00:11:22] Rick and Laurie it's this moment of intimacy in the shower together. They're clearly having sexy shower times great they both seem into it Andrea's shell-shocked, Glenn's and T-dog are just ecstatic to be washing and

[00:11:33] Shane is standing there like braced against the wall swinging southern comfort looking absolutely murderous and For Laurie to go from that kind of safety and this moment with Carol of talking about like how they could read forever

[00:11:45] You know thinking that this is gonna be it to just have that like shattered is pretty going Just like I said last time he he can't let go He's fixated on Laurie and that's his downfall and and on and he believes being Yeah

[00:12:06] It's fucking dark that's that's a dark that that goes beyond like He's a bit creepy into like this is a very dark place to be like you love me. I know you love me

[00:12:16] We couldn't be together like that if you didn't love me, I'm like, I mean if I was his friend and I knew what was Going on I would say you need to let go if you don't it's no good for anyone

[00:12:28] You know like yeah, I don't know what else to say Yeah, exactly so I want to get that out because it was gonna I was just gonna sit and fizz about it otherwise But yeah, that's my that's my big grump about this episode

[00:12:42] Is that seen not even a bit because it's powerful and it's right. Oh, yeah But it's my the thing I found most upsetting about this episode was that Not the you know mass suicide and finding out the world is fucked and all that

[00:12:54] But yeah that I was just horrible because that shit happens every day. And yeah, yeah And it just made me sad it's I mean it's another it's the different like I've you know, there's how things impact us emotionally and then there's good storytelling and and

[00:13:13] There you know, I've said if something is offensive That doesn't mean I don't want it in the story because this is a story about hard things, you know racism and sexism and sexual assaults and all of that and

[00:13:31] I don't know. It's dark for sure, but I think it was done in a way that was gratuitous or anything No, it made it made sense for where he is at that moment. Yeah

[00:13:45] It's horrible. Yeah, and so and when he's in there like it wasn't friendly at first my It's sleazy drunk Shane Ogling her in her little nighty or whatever repeat Creepy as fuck and she looks so innocent with her little knees. Oh

[00:14:02] I'm gonna tell you a few things and you're gonna listen like that I want to punch him in the face If anyone's listening to this do not do not start a conversation with that in any situation

[00:14:17] He knows she's mad at him for saying Rick was dead. So he wants to justify his actions and And I guess I'll do my point on Shane and Laurie, but also the flashback

[00:14:31] Yeah, interesting. Actually, that's a good place to go. Yeah, so I forgot the flashback was this early on but uh flashing back on the what happened at the hospital and I think the reason why they showed us that right now is because then

[00:14:43] Later, he's trying to justify his actions to Laurie So he sees the military shooting people and that's pretty upsetting too It's hard to tell I you know, you presume

[00:14:54] Oh, they're probably bitten but I wouldn't necessarily assume that maybe we could zoom in on the picture and find out for sure But I think it could go either way. I think maybe the military would they don't know anything about the infection yet

[00:15:07] Maybe they just think the whole facility is contaminated and decided to go all Carol on everyone You know, I had a thought about this Jason we find out in world beyond What's her face and puck huck huck

[00:15:21] In her flashback we find out that the military had blanket orders to kill civilians, right? That's right. And I don't know if it would work in the timeline, but I did think of that

[00:15:33] It's in my notes. I'm like didn't have to do this in the world beyond so before I would have agreed with you But now I think they are just killing civilians, but it's a hospital. Yeah, maybe they're just

[00:15:45] Killing. I mean, maybe they just think this is a this is a This place is too far gone, you know, everyone here is is a vector we got to get rid of them and

[00:15:57] Then this zombie comes through the door. It gets the best of the military. It's so ridiculous. It's just It's kind of But then Shane we see Shane his first instinct is to carry Rick out

[00:16:18] I mean clearly he wants to get Rick out right or he wants Rick to be. Yeah For all I've just said about Shane at this point There is no doubt in my mind. He's trying to get Rick out Yeah

[00:16:29] Like his intention is to go in and get him out to like Penny had said Shane is a complex character I agree. He's a human being he's got conflicting drives like we all do and I think he has a love for

[00:16:43] Rick at the same time that he feels like Rick is a rival and So, I guess he's deciding well these soldiers are shooting everyone and there's zombies everywhere if I carry Rick I'll be a sitting duck and we'll both be dead. That's my guess

[00:16:57] So he says if you're gonna wake up I need you to do it now like I think he wants him to just get up and walk or it could be it's a

[00:17:04] Little darker, but just show me it's worth saving you. I need to know for sure. You're not brain dead or something you know, I don't know but um, anyway, he that's when the explosions start and He listens for a heartbeat later. He tells Laurie he didn't hear one

[00:17:19] But he still thought to block the door. So I don't know if we believe that but there was a lot of sounds I the way I read it and As is abundantly clear from what I've just said

[00:17:29] I'm like Shane's least favorite fan the way I read this scene was actually quite empathetic and I think Yeah, I Think he's I would say if you he's 95% sure that Rick is dead

[00:17:43] But there is so much noise and so much stuff going on that. He just can't be sure so he puts the What you call it gurney Stretch as well. I got one of those little paper hospital cups and just said in front of the door

[00:17:58] Yeah, like he'll knock it over if he wakes up I think that's his insurance policy But it did surprise me because I I don't think he's lying to Laurie when he says Rick is dead I think he's taking a chance. Yeah, it's not the full truth

[00:18:13] But it's not as outright a lie as I initially thought it was. Yeah, he thinks it's it's probably true but he And he tells Laurie here if if I told you what happened You would have gone back and you know

[00:18:30] He doesn't say exactly this but he thinks she would have gone back in that she could have died So and I and I also think part of the reason why he didn't risk

[00:18:37] Carrying Rick out is because he's trying to protect himself because he wants to protect Laurie and Carl who are presumably nearby But anyway, I was trying to think Do I

[00:18:54] Do I think he did the right thing or should he have tried to carry him out and I think he probably Did did the right thing by leaving but I still think he probably should have told Laurie the truth about what happened and dealt with

[00:19:11] The consequences of that. I don't I think you made a good point a few episodes ago that like he could have said look We'll go back. Yeah, that that would have also been okay I think he's right that she wouldn't have gone if he told her the truth

[00:19:26] And I think if he had tried to get Rick out at that point, they both would have died But I don't think that makes what he did. Yeah, right I just think yeah

[00:19:37] It was okay to leave him because it was maybe a death sentence not to but he should have probably told Laurie the truth and but Given that he didn't that he left Rick and didn't tell Laurie the truth. He shouldn't have shacked up with Laurie

[00:19:57] And it's his best friend and her husband No, I mean maybe if he told her the whole truth and she still wanted to be with him then okay Which is kind of the comics in a way because they're they're just having an affair in the comics

[00:20:12] Yeah, but the show I think the way the way it was played in this episode It was never her intention to have an affair at best. She was making a really erratic grief decision that she now regrets Yeah, so

[00:20:25] Laurie it comes off better in the show than the comic up to now anyway Yeah, absolutely. It's a bit moany I Remember a lot of details about I just remember feeling annoyed by her and maybe that the fans felt more annoyed than me

[00:20:44] I can't remember but we'll see I remember her death scene was maybe the most impactful scene of the whole series. Oh So brutal. Oh my god. She's so good in there. Good All right. What do you got next? What I got next Oh Carol Carol's origin story, man

[00:21:06] There was a moment in this episode that I fucking hated apart from the one that I was spoken about where the men are all trying to break their way out of the bunker and The women are holding the kids and crying And I'm like, all right

[00:21:19] but but to counter that to a few things about Carol one is I forgot that Carol and Laurie actually have quite a sweet friendship and It made me rethink kind of Carol's relationship with Judith and because Carol of everyone I think

[00:21:36] Knows Laurie from basically day one of the outbreak. She's friends with her throughout her pregnancy Yeah, she might be thinking about Laurie a lot when she is with Judith

[00:21:47] And that's amazing for Judith to have somebody who knew her mom like to talk about her except she doesn't ever that we know Yeah Apart from Daryl would be like, oh olive oil. I don't remember her like, you know, who's that? Carol though has

[00:22:04] Two great moments that I've written down here. Hang on Oh to one moment that I thought was interesting in one great moment One moment I thought was interesting was we find out in this episode that Carol is a little bit cross claustrophobic. Oh, yeah

[00:22:26] I like that what I hate is like in Star Wars when c-3po Says in in the first movie something like I'm not a very good storyteller and then in return of the Jedi

[00:22:38] He's wowing the Ewoks with his sound effects telling the story of the first two movies stuff like that Nice when they get it, right? That's cool, I like that that's gonna come back and of course Oh, but for listeners who don't remember I bet you there are none

[00:22:58] You're talking about when she's stuck in the cave Blows it up. Yes. She's having a panic attack and Connie has to Kind of talk her down and help her out and of course who has a grenade in their handbag

[00:23:17] Carol has a grenade in her hand and fucking Shane piece of shit Shane says To quote I don't think a nail file is gonna do it Carol And I was like fuck you two seasons later. She would have knifed you right in the face

[00:23:35] so piss off and and yeah, she hands over the Carol I don't think a nail file is gonna do it It's what he says Carol hands over a grenade and gets them all out of the fucking CDC. Boom. Carol is awesome And it's also we see her

[00:23:55] Having washed Rick's clothes and we see him pick it up and I was like, oh, this is quite good It's it's all tying in together. So yeah, Carol saved the day not for the first time and not for the last time

[00:24:03] Well for the first time not last time. Yeah, this is much More common than we probably thought at the time this kind of thing. Yeah That line though. I don't think a nail file is gonna do it. I don't mean to hear him say that

[00:24:16] Awful awful. There's no time for that kind of quick ass crappy comment. Anyway That's my comment. I can't help but laugh I have to admit it but he was quickly proven to be an idiot All right, my first one. Well second one is just entitled some ridiculousness

[00:24:35] so I Was very critical of the high-tech aspects of this episode the first time it seemed to sci-fi Oh, yeah, how is that aged? Well Jenner says Vi bring up the lights in the big room and the lights come on and I'm like, yeah, right and now

[00:24:52] I mean millions of people do that every day in their homes. Yeah, I can do What's this Alexa turn on all the lights see I just turned on a bunch of people's lights Just said something back Alexa play Barry Manilow

[00:25:12] So so it's funny I mean and later he says Vi say hello to our guests tell them welcome and by says hello guests welcome And so that is a little bit more than what Alexa and like Siri can do right now

[00:25:25] They're not that sophisticated but now that chap GPT and generative AI large language model tech that's come out I think I think Siri and Alexa are about to get like by in the next year, you know easily

[00:25:40] Yeah, but in 2010 you'd not have any of this and oh that was the future it was and That's why they put it in here. They wanted it to seem

[00:25:50] Beyond where we were because it was and I just thought it made this show that I liked that it felt aside from the one Supernatural conceit or whatever sci-fi can see the zombies it felt And Personal and suddenly it just felt really goofy I

[00:26:11] Show a modestly funded government building not some sci-fi fantasy. It really took me out of it Jenner says give me playback of TS 19 and it plays a video, but it's not a video

[00:26:23] It's an animated 3d rendering that responds to his command zoom in on this and take us in for EIV and enhanced internal view I think there's apps where you can do that with it's like a brain imaging but pulling it all together

[00:26:36] Connected to this AI voice displayed on this big screen We can't even do that now in 2023 or release people don't do that. So definitely not in 2010 That I mean, that's this is all like the least of it though

[00:26:48] We find out that when this clock counts down the generators run out of fuel And then the pole place is gonna blow up facility-wide decontamination The if there was a self-destruct mechanism at the CDC

[00:27:01] it wouldn't be set to automatically go off just because power runs out and there's absolutely not a self-destruct mechanism on the CDC and Also, it's pretty morbid to have this like dedicated digital count countdown meter up on the wall

[00:27:16] Just in case we have to blow the whole place up, you know, what's that for? What is that clock Nobody asked him before now if I came in and there was an ominous countdown I'd be like Don't worry about that

[00:27:34] They're sacrificing realism for the sake of drama and that's that's what they did, you know, they decided to do Let's make it really dramatic but it took me out if they might as well bring in aliens and superheroes at this point and

[00:27:45] then it got even worse like the Doomsday Clock reaches 30 minutes and Jenner raises this like Star Wars style blast door to lock them all in If this happened on fear the Walking Dead we'd be like I looked

[00:28:05] Just doing some searching and I guess PolitiFact had looked into some of the details of this episode They said officials at the CDC said the agency was not consulted during the production of this Shit

[00:28:18] And while the agency does have safeguards in case generators fail a sub nuclear blast is not one of them spokeswoman Karen Hunter said quote we do have systems in place, but none of them involve explosives and We do not have a doomsday scenario at the CDC

[00:28:33] And she said if for some reason the CDC were unable to operate from its main campus Designated employees would travel to another location and work from there So that's the official word you heard of hybrid working That's another option than self-destruct

[00:28:50] And then the last thing I have here is just I thought it was also ridiculous that shotguns couldn't break the windows in the CDC I Couldn't decide where I landed with that. I was like, I guess But that's a hell of a shotgun

[00:29:04] Like I just I was just like I don't know enough about windows, but it seemed dumb I did laugh when T-Dog got the chair though. I was like, yeah, that'll do it A little chair chairs not gonna help, honey For T-Dog doing his best

[00:29:22] so that's that that I really feel like if What if what if they had just done it like the real CDC would that have killed the drama? I mean it they wouldn't have been racing against the time to avoid

[00:29:39] Self-destruct and they wouldn't have had to deal with the whole suicide theme. So I guess it wouldn't have worked really, you know They would have had to come up with other hooks to make the story work Yeah It is gimmicky though having that kind of peril of

[00:29:54] The countdown and like no one can stop this and I'm like, I mean Do you feel the same way or not? Because I know a lot of listeners don't really care they're like you're just thinking about it too much I

[00:30:05] Think I minded it less the first time I watched the show but now I'm like it still sticks out as being weird like it's still

[00:30:12] sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of the episodes and one of the things from the IMDB dive that I did was the Kirkman obviously we've spoken at the fact Kirkman didn't like this episode and he says it his issue with it is that it

[00:30:25] Tells doesn't show which is interesting given what we were talking about on wildfire with with Peter about yeah, what was good about wildfire? but in terms of the sci-fi of it

[00:30:35] I think it's really hard to judge now because I was thinking of you and he was talking to Vi I was like, oh Jason's gonna have something to say about Siri because at the time they're all like

[00:30:43] Whereas now we'd be like, oh, yeah cool. My phone does that and so it just wouldn't be that exciting. Um The enforced peril feels quite filmic I think it's one of those things where you start to realize that

[00:30:57] Or you really feel that Darabont is a filmmaker and there's maybe taking some filmmaker tropes into this and this is one of the ones that really sticks out I Think the the talk about suicide in this episode is handled quite clumsily I

[00:31:14] think the moment with Jackie and Jenner is Beautiful, actually. I like that moment where Jackie and Jenner are just holding each other's hands and waiting but the stuff with Dale and Andrea is It's quite heavy-handed and deal

[00:31:29] Does something pretty bad I think in this episode in terms of but you're drifting away from the talk about yeah Sorry, you're like you're not talking about the side I Don't know I don't think I dislike it as much as you I'm kind of neutral on it. Mm-hmm

[00:31:45] That's fair. I guess that's the reason why I asked you because I don't want I Don't want to come off like if you like this episode you're what's wrong with you or something like that

[00:31:54] This is just my no not with it with you or anybody listening, you know, it's just my my issue with it Yes Yeah, I know people like it

[00:32:05] And I liked it like I said at the top it was still entertaining to watch it just had to sort of like All right, I gotta get past all this. I think the Department of just of suspension of disbelief is fooler after Others yeah, they have a good

[00:32:20] AI vocal assistant down there. They can help him handle a lot of it All right, what's next I drifted off. So where did I drift to and I'll talk about that? Um suicide stuff Yeah deals decision Andrea's decision Jackie's decision

[00:32:43] Yeah, Andrea is not in a good place in this episode. So let's talk about her and When you think about the timing Amy died early yesterday so she's really reeling from the shock of it and those scenes where she's in the shower and then

[00:32:59] Throwing up and her and Dale have this conversation where Andrea is just like there's nothing left. You saw generous face. There's nothing left. I am Yeah, I have very mixed feelings about what goes down with Jackie and Andrea choosing to stay and Dale trying to talk

[00:33:16] I'm very out of it. I think Dale's motivation is quite selfish I think in a weird way Jenner makes a case for his decision and that's Inarguable in some ways

[00:33:31] I think it's interesting that he finishes that chat with the the day will come when you won't be which they bring back in season 7 episode 1 Which is probably the day that Rick regrets Everything from the CDC, which is of course the Negan episode. Yeah, he said that because

[00:33:49] what Jenner finally allowed them to leave and he said Rick said I'm grateful and Jenner said the day will come when you won't be which is a reference to Negan when he meets Deacon basically you you're you're not gonna be grateful that I

[00:34:07] Gave you the chance to live which I think that's not true. Rick's still grateful after that episode. He's living his life He's in a show called the ones who live Just not in that episode He's like wouldn't life would be nicer if we just did it the CDC

[00:34:24] So with Andrea again both Andrea and Laurie characters. I previously not liked much I felt more sympathetic after this episode to them and I'm interested to see how that impacts me going into season 2

[00:34:35] I can also see where Dale was coming from in his fear of losing his friend and his upset and his grief but it I Don't know how do you feel about it? I

[00:34:48] Remember, yeah, I have a lot to say about this and I want to go through my old thing point my point But specifically on what Dale did I remember thinking of it as being more manipulative than it read to me this time this time I thought okay

[00:35:03] some people would argue that Andrea should have the choice to do this because she's Full-grown adult she can do this if she wants to Dale should have the choice to he doesn't want to go on living without Andrea

[00:35:16] Let him sit there. It's the same exact thing. I didn't I mean, I feel like maybe he's hoping that she will say no I'm gonna leave with you, but he's ready to kill himself and he doesn't seem to actually want to go on without her

[00:35:28] So in that sense, he's making the choice too and he should be given just as much leeway as anyone would give Andrea That's what I think True true hadn't thought of it that way in terms of him. I hadn't either actually not caring about the outcome

[00:35:43] Yeah, if you watch that scene, he's just like I don't want to be alone, you know Yeah Yeah, it's a difficult one It's interesting as we've spoken a lot about Suicide when we covered the last of us

[00:35:59] And it's something that will come up again in this show a couple of times and I just don't know that there's an easy or productive way to talk about it because the show it's such a

[00:36:13] Unreal situation and a wild amount of pressure. I think everyone in that situation has the right to kind of object It's interesting that no one's that bothered by Jackie They're like Somebody is like Okay, she doesn't want to let's go guys the rest of us. Let's go

[00:36:30] But they all leave Andrea to except for Dale They're not bothered about her either. Also, I was laughing. I was like is Dale gonna get up those stairs quickly Yeah, I feel like Andrea and Laurie going into season two I've got slightly shifted perspectives on both of them

[00:36:49] I'll see how long it lasts. Yeah. Yeah me too. Well, should I do my suicide point? Great. Yeah, let's keep it happy cheerful upbeat So so Jackie and Andrea chose to stay there and I don't like that I

[00:37:04] I feel like for one thing Jenner was sort of leading people towards the idea that it's What he was bringing up Suicide, I mean, I guess they asked him what happened And he said that most a lot of the scientists there decided to kill themselves

[00:37:22] Yeah, but what we find out later is as soon as he let them in It let our people in he thought he was deciding for them that

[00:37:30] You're gonna die and that but that's better than living in this world. He was making that decision for them. He thought that's not good That's unacceptable. Yeah, he's he's a grieving man over something that happened very recently the loss of his wife

[00:37:44] And I would say he hasn't really had time to process that So he's not in a good place emotionally to I would argue even decide suicide for himself much less a group of strangers and

[00:37:59] I think it's interesting that these scientists did do that because I think with suicide a lot of the time just based on what? I know from sort of osmosis over the years what I've heard and that when

[00:38:16] Someone has a sharp when their lives dramatically change for the worse. A lot of times that's when it will happen Like if somebody loses all their money in the stock market and they jump out a skyscraper or something but people who

[00:38:35] Stuck around after like well, so the zombie apocalypse That's a dramatic change for the worst for everyone, but people who stuck around An all-night bomber Yeah, but the people who stuck around and got used to the situation then a lot of them had fulfilling lives hard but fulfilling

[00:38:54] But I would personally try To stop a friend who was suicidal from killing themselves and let it most cases I mean, I guess the way I look at it is if you're in the middle of an emotional trauma Then I want you to have a chance to

[00:39:11] Process that and to heal and to get to a clearer place where you're not acting from that place of pain If possible, you know, like if someone has a terminal disease and they don't want to suffer

[00:39:23] I totally get that, you know assisted suicide in those cases. I'm supportive of that But if you're just hurting over something and feel you don't want to live if you've had that feeling for a long time

[00:39:35] You know six months or something and it's not going away and you're clear on it Then I would still maybe encourage someone to can you try to get some help or what if you've tried things like that?

[00:39:45] Then I'm more understanding of it. But if you if you just had something bad happen, then no I don't I don't agree with that and here where we've got Jenner just sort of arguing for suicide through the whole episode and

[00:40:02] Yeah, Andrea saying everything's over there's nothing left and I think that got into Jackie's head and she now there's a literal bomb timer going down like high-pressure situation I thought that was a shame Jackie showed a lot of life and she had this like glow about her and

[00:40:24] And I think it would have been great to see her in later seasons. I mean, this is storytelling I get it but just if this was real I Would feel like that was such a shame that I think cuz like even with Andrea

[00:40:38] Let's say you would argue that Dale robbed Andrea of this chance to do the thing that she wanted to do I just think later on Andrea would have I felt like she should thank him for that because she

[00:40:48] If she really thought that was the best thing then she could just do it later when she was on her own and had the choice You know, I just feel like once you get to a clear place

[00:40:57] That's a better place to decide something like that than when you're Freshly grieving or you're in this high-pressure situation So that's pretty much my thought I had more notes, but I'll just oh

[00:41:08] One more thing. I do want to get into because I think it's kind of interesting. So Jenner Is like telling everybody, you know, hey, it's better to just end it now because the world's a horrible place and I Was

[00:41:25] Looking around on that and I found this term suicide enabler It's a term quote used by some mental health experts and journalists to describe the person who provides methods Encouragement or even pressure to die to someone who's suicidal

[00:41:39] Suicide enablers may operate online or real life and they may have various motives such as sadism Attention-seeking or distorted sense of compassion, which I think is him Suicide enablers are different from suicide assistants who are people who help someone end their life in a legal and regulated way

[00:41:55] such as physician assisted suicide or euthanasia and the New York Times had an article about one specific website that provided methods encouragement and even Pressure to die and they said at least 45 deaths of people who frequented the website were confirmed

[00:42:09] Some of those just young teenagers, so I feel really strongly to like explore other options with people and not encourage that which is why That's one of the main knocks against Andrea to me is when Bethel alone with that knife when she was feeling particularly emotional it

[00:42:30] But isn't it interesting that that could perhaps be a response to deal What deal did for her? Yeah, could be I think it probably was yeah But I wouldn't like Dale for that like I said

[00:42:43] I really did see this differently to before with Dale because it seemed to me as much as he was like maybe if I Here it will convince Andrew to leave it seemed at least I think I'd say even more than 50% like well

[00:42:54] I don't want to live either if you don't want to live and I'm gonna make the same choice as you Yeah, it's a messy situation It's a really messy one it's Yeah, it's one of those ones that kind of

[00:43:08] provokes a lot of very deep questions, but it's also like I mean when I was a teenager I was 17 that's the only time I ever felt suicidal it was because a girl didn't like me and

[00:43:22] And I'm glad I didn't have access to one of these websites back then. You know I could be gone right now and and then You know sometimes when something bad happens, and you like Rick is saying you know there's always hope maybe it won't be you

[00:43:38] Maybe not here, but somebody somewhere You know I I like that and I wouldn't even be doing this like I said the guy who lost all his money in the stock market And so he jumps out a window

[00:43:50] But maybe this guy even with losing all his money still has more resources than a lot of people in the world It's all relative and you can start from where you are like Dale said something about it's a new start

[00:44:01] I mean, that's kind of ridiculous to say in the zombie apocalypse And so like I I lost my job before I started podcasting and if I felt so wrecked by that not suicidal But really depressed and if I hadn't lost that now in hindsight

[00:44:15] I never would have gotten into podcasting and so you just never know you never know what's possible You know it's worth worth a try I'd say the only time is if you have just this like sustained well I don't even want to encourage anyone to do that

[00:44:28] If you're in a certain place I Know it's fine. I think What's the suicide number I Guess there's only one in the United States nine eight eight so if you're having any thoughts like that just

[00:44:57] Text or call that number and get some help, please it won't be us the answer if that's any comfort Yeah, no it will be trained professionals Yeah, it's hard. I think um yeah, I think sadly a lot of a lot of suicides come from people who are

[00:45:24] chronically and long-term Depressed and unhappy as well like sometimes the idea of a reactive suicide is is not always the case of what happens, and it's just interesting I think that the show throws a lot of suicide out there. I think in a lot of these kind of

[00:45:43] situations and scenarios and Yeah It's this won't be the last time that we that we see a situation kind of like this and see people make decisions that are Not necessarily ones we would make or understand

[00:45:59] Yeah, or be stopped from making them or indeed in Andrea's case enabling other people to do them Hmm, I guess I guess yeah maybe I think because I remember when I was 17 and I just had a

[00:46:13] Period of time there where I just couldn't I felt like there was no reason to live and I remember telling my friend I don't I need some reason to live. Can you help me with that? And he's like chocolate. I don't know and I'm

[00:46:27] Nothing would make me laugh, you know and I've never felt like that before or since but I remember that still and and I'm so glad that I got through it and that There was so much that came after that that I wouldn't not have wanted to miss

[00:46:43] No, I think yeah, it's difficult Thing to kind of talk about and think but I I do remember once feeling a Couple of times over the years having points in my life where I felt like

[00:46:56] The thought that I wouldn't have to get up tomorrow a relief and that was always a scary point That was always the point where I was like now this has gone too far

[00:47:04] I need to do more of the stuff I do that keeps me from feeling like this a lot and whether it's therapy medication walking Joy yeah, yeah podcasting

[00:47:21] But it's difficult and it can creep up on you that's the other thing is it's not like you wake up one day and think Today I feel this way. Sometimes you're just thinking and you're like, oh Yeah, I know that's disordered. That's that's You know, yeah Absolutely

[00:47:38] So we still have Andrea I as I say, I find Jenner and Jackie a little touching but they have each other at the end They're but yes, it's pretty harrowing, you know, I mean, I like Jackie

[00:47:52] I would have liked to have seen more of her but that was a touching moment. I guess I mean I don't like Jenner anymore. I had forgotten the Forgot that he was like, yeah, it's better to die everybody. Come on

[00:48:03] I didn't even think of that in conjunction with him for some reason I like he's almost like some kind of creepy youth pastor at that. He's very preachy. I'm like, yeah

[00:48:13] But I wonder if he's looking to justify his own decisions. Yeah, and he's very much in his own experience Yeah, that's posing it on everyone else and but I think Noah Emmerich is is really good and he made that so watchable

[00:48:29] You know, so oh, yeah, he's a fantastic actor. He was the right person for that role for sure Mm-hmm All right, what else What else have I got on a lighter note? I

[00:48:41] one of the things I remember liking about this episode and that held up second watch is Everyone getting to let their hair down a little bit get a little drunk. Yeah some food. It's the opposite

[00:48:51] It's like a one of the darkest kinds of things to talk about and then one of like the best lightest. Yeah Everyone's letting off a bit of steam Silly shit from dinner parties when you're little like someone lets the kid try the wine someone gets too drunk

[00:49:09] You know, it's it's just nice to see the group Relaxed Darrell's coming out of his shell a little bit What he says a boo-yah It's just nice to see it's nice to see everyone and relaxed in that way It's a shame that is short-lived

[00:49:29] But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed seeing a little Chandler Riggs trying what I'm sure was just grape juice No Chandler was drunk. He was a drunkenness. I was he's an eight-year-old alcoholic And no, it was it was a really cute little bit

[00:49:45] And I like the hangovers the next day as well. We Glenn not able to hold his liquor T-dog mastering the hangover with some powdered eggs. He's the kind of guy I'd want around I didn't know there were powdered eggs. What it what the heck is that?

[00:49:59] Much what it seems like like dried egg that you can cook up into scrabbled eggs pretty grim It's kind of British wartime food. It was sweet of T. Doc to make breakfast for everyone though It was indeed and get some painkillers

[00:50:13] I've just noticed though in my notes. I've written when I Was gonna ask you how accurate this was cuz I know we used to work for Apple that Jenner's a bit like Steve Jobs when he's presenting TS 19 and his suicide plans. There's something of the

[00:50:27] Jobsian sort of imagine if you will your whole life the synapses what makes you you Yeah, so sorry I'm going all over the place tonight I think it's been a long week

[00:50:39] I did laugh when they were having dinner and Lori says when Carl is in Italy or France one day And The iconic response to everyone, you know, everything's fucked and we're all gonna die Darrell saying I'm gonna go get shit-faced drunk again

[00:51:02] It's kind of my attitude to things a lot of the time. It's definitely my attitude in the pandemic for sure And of course Rick or Shane I think clocks that Jenner is not engaging with the group. He's kind of checked out and

[00:51:15] Brings him in for that buzzkill moment Yeah of talking about how everything is kind of fucked and people have been opting out I Was sort of wondering why why isn't he enjoying the party with everyone else?

[00:51:27] Is it just because he's just uncomfortable with having these strangers here, but then you find out it's like oh He knows that they're already dead in 24 hours. Yeah, he's like, oh, I'm actually planning a mass murder Excuse me if I don't enjoy them or low

[00:51:43] You can have as much as you want though Yeah, how much as you want like I mean it's not going anywhere can't take it with you Yeah that I like the dinner scene a lot yeah, I am I

[00:51:57] Thought it was funny. And well Darrell says to Glenn keep drinking little man I want to see how red your face can get which again throwing a little racial stereotype with his bonding I

[00:52:12] Thought it was super cute and it shows that he's he's being really buddy-buddy with Glenn now Yeah, but he's I just thought I'd mention this I don't know if I don't know how many people know this but he's talking about this alcohol flush reaction

[00:52:27] That's sometimes called the Asian flush which is a condition where a person develops Flushes or blotches on the face neck shoulders and in some cases the entire body after drinking alcohol It's a result of an accumulation of

[00:52:41] acetaldehyde and a metabolic byproduct of the catabolic metabolism of alcohol and is caused by an aldehyde Dehydrogenase deficiency or something that was like Jenner was here speaking to me I was like It's frequent in

[00:53:06] East Asians with approximately 30 to 50 percent of Chinese Japanese and Koreans having it my wife Jenny has it She's Taiwanese So if she even has a little her face just turns red, but I didn't know this but doing research in it today

[00:53:22] I found out it can be as serious. I mean on a smaller scale it can be Accompanied by nausea headaches and a fast heart rate, but even with just moderate regular drinking There's a highly increased risk of cardiovascular disease

[00:53:37] Osteoporosis and esophageal cancer, so I'm gonna talk to my wife about that because I didn't even know that oh Man, yeah, that's an intervention for you tonight She's in the edible yeah, yeah different I guess

[00:53:58] And then just a little bit more on like the niceness of this place the showers I mean it made me it makes me think when I used to go to Burning Man for a week that first hot shower coming

[00:54:08] Home is so just ecstatic. Yeah, I did last though because Rick technically had one like two three days ago I'm like But now he's got a woman in there so it's nice yeah, no, it's like it's a sexy show rather than Morgan

[00:54:28] Carol they're all thinking and probably we were too I don't remember now, but when we were watching this the first time we might have been thinking oh, maybe this can be a place where they can hole up for a while and

[00:54:41] Carol thinks they might be there for years because when Laurie finds her in the rec room She says any good books and Carol goes enough to keep us busy for years Yeah, and really think they've come home Rick saying to Laurie. We don't have to be afraid anymore

[00:54:55] We're safe here makes it sound like he's planning to be there for a while, too As far as he's concerned he's been the solution to everything yeah Never true Okay, do you have any more Rick and Jenner's seen Rick

[00:55:15] Revealing that he's been keeping it in that he's been really scared. He doesn't know Which way is up? He doesn't believe that people are gonna live he's worried about survival and then Jenner

[00:55:25] Balkan throws him under the bus in front of all his people which isn't a very good move where he's like you think everyone's Gonna die don't you Rick and it's like oh, that's really a horrible thing to do That's true because it kind of shatters the group

[00:55:39] Faith in him shortly and I think this is the start of that pressure on Rick really starting to weigh on him and seeing him express that to Jenner is It's quite powerful

[00:55:52] And I wonder if that's one of the reasons why Jenner does open the door is because he remembers that Conversation that they've had the night before It's interesting you're bringing that up because I just over the years with The Walking Dead

[00:56:04] I remember the theme that I thought that I got the most tired of it was interesting at first, but they just kept Repeating and repeating it was can you come back from the dark things that you've done?

[00:56:15] Right that kind of a thing and I realized with Rick we haven't even really started down that path yet You know at the end of season one. We're not even there yet

[00:56:25] I probably in season two we're gonna get more of that. But anyway, I think this is like the germ of the seed of it We need to have like a Rick-o-meter of like where is he? Then

[00:56:40] Andrew Lincoln plays drunk really well. Some actors don't play drunk convincingly. I think Andrew Lincoln does a really good job of playing that I Didn't think you did that good. Honestly, no

[00:56:56] You think it was goofy oh that was good when he stumbled over yeah, but I don't know the way it was acting But Maybe they were all really drunk Rick overpowers Shane also when they're fighting Shane kind of starts raging and honestly

[00:57:12] This pissed me off. I like that Rick one It pissed me off though Cuz Shane's like I'm gonna blow your head off and that this guy has literally just told you that he intends to kill himself in The next 30 minutes. Why would you?

[00:57:23] Change anything about this situation if there's any way of getting out of this he might be a factor in it Yeah, just like yeah, that's right. Shoot the guy who can open the door So Rick overpowers him knocks him on the head

[00:57:39] It start you start to get the sense that they're quite evenly matched if it isn't the case that Rick is sometimes better Overpowering Shane so yeah the stuff with Rick in this episode was really

[00:57:50] About him scrabbling about him finding a solution but feeling the weight of this decision and needing it to go well and That seemed with Jenner I think I think Rick's interactions with Jenner in this episode are really formative for him going forward because

[00:58:03] He finds out what we later realize is that everyone is infected he looks to Jenner for solutions and help but is Massively let down by that and then at the last minute is is given this kind of state of execution and let out again It's it's powerful stuff

[00:58:24] Yeah, you're right like there. I mean Shane had a good point like I know we're having a party here But Rick you brought us here. We had an argument over where to go. We ended up coming here

[00:58:37] You what you thought this would be the answer to all our problems and there's just one guy here Yeah turned out to be a suicide enabler. So And apparently not a very good scientist. Also, he's like my wife was a good scientist. I like made the coffees

[00:58:50] He didn't make the coffees, but you know knocked over the last In my minion suit playing with the microscope I fucking burnt the lab down So yeah Jenner not necessarily the best scientist in the world

[00:59:06] But Rick, you know, yeah like it's all it's on his shoulders more and more now and you can see that it's weighing on him Yeah. Yeah, and he did that to himself. I mean, he's the one always wanting to be the authority. He's the one wearing the

[00:59:20] Police uniform. He's the one insisting on his decisions making the decisions and getting everyone into it And now he's feeling the weight of that but he did put himself in that position and of everyone there

[00:59:33] I think he probably is the best one to be doing it, right? I don't know who else would do it. I don't know He dog, I don't know Jackie probably should have been Planning she probably saw some dirty stuff and some of them like she was in so

[00:59:51] Yeah, so that's that me. Okay, let's do what we learned about the zeds So I was really hoping you would do this I had a whole thing written down I was like now Jason will cover this I was like, it's fine. I

[01:00:05] think it's I think a lot of the point of this episode was Let's get them Some knowledge and they you know, they're they're near the CDC

[01:00:15] So it kind of makes sense that they would find the person or at least the American who knows the most about the zombie apocalypse So we have our characters right with this guy who knows so much and he shows this visualization of TS 19 his wife

[01:00:34] That designation TS by the way comes back in world beyond when they Yeah, see them Experimenting on zombies and they're like TS 4.0 point 3 a or whatever That's subject. Yeah He Described how the brain works the normal human brain and I liked it

[01:00:53] He said somewhere in all that organic wiring all those ripples of light is you the thing that makes you unique and human? Those are synapses electric impulses in the brain that carry all the messages

[01:01:04] They determine everything a person says does or thinks from the moment of birth to the moment of death. I Think that's a poetic way of talking about Neurons in the brain that Communicate with other neurons which are cells through electrical impulses. They cause the release of neurotransmitter

[01:01:23] Neurotransmitters which are chemicals that act as messengers. So, you know, I think that's what he's talking about. You could say it's accurate If somebody's a scientist or has any more knowledge of that and doesn't agree with me, let me know

[01:01:38] But um, you know, we find out the test subject was bitten and infected and volunteered to have them record the process Which is pretty thrilling So we can see what happens in the brain during death It's morbid but fascinating and he said the adrenal glands hemorrhage

[01:01:53] The brain goes into shutdown then the major organs then death He said it's like meningitis by the way, which is basically a viral or bacterial infection in the brain And adrenal glands are glands that produce hormones like pituitary I think Jenner says resurrection times very wildly

[01:02:15] we had reports of it happening in as little as three minutes the longest we heard was eight hours and I think that was great to set up Options for storytelling later, you know, it always takes as long as is best for the drama is what I say

[01:02:32] Yes, so later we see when beta kills some residents at Alexandria and sits there meditating That they come back in a few minutes, I think Those baiters magic is so good. And then Carl of course lasted three months and had a great summer No, I

[01:02:52] He got bitten in the daytime with Sadiq and then I think it was that night that he got the fever. So He got the fever I don't think he died for like another day or two though, are you sure really I don't know

[01:03:06] I think so because you see this whole montage of him like having Yeah, because they had to he had to get them all out into the tunnels and that happens over more than one day So I think he had at least 24 hours. Look but I

[01:03:21] Read he spends the day helping Sadiq creating memories with Judith and writing the notes and then succumbed to the fever That night, but I could be wrong. Yeah, we should it depends when they go to the tunnels either way

[01:03:34] sometimes it takes longer sometimes shorter and then the infection restarts the brain stem gets the Gets them up and moving most of the brain is dead He says the frontal lobe the neocortex doesn't come back and they're just a shell driven by mindless instinct

[01:03:50] so I wanted to know if that meant there were no traces of memory or humanity left and Chat GPT that sometimes makes stuff up but said if Jenner's statement is true

[01:04:01] Then it would imply that the walkers have no consciousness or memory of their former lives as these functions depend on the neocortex however This may not be the case as some studies have suggested that the neocortex is not the only brain region that contributes to consciousness and memory

[01:04:15] For example, the limbic system which includes the amygdala hippocampus and other structures is also involved in emotional processing Learning and memory the limbic system is connected to the neocortex, but it's not clear if it can function independently of it

[01:04:30] Therefore it's possible that the walkers have some residual or rudimentary form of consciousness or memory Even if their neocortex is damaged or destroyed This may explain why some walkers show signs of recognition attachment or emotion towards certain people or objects such as Michonne's pets

[01:04:44] organs wife or the governor's daughter However, this is not to restore their humanity as they are still driven by their primal instincts to feed on the living Thank you. Bye for that answer. Thank you So Jenner doesn't know if it's microbial viral parasitic

[01:05:04] Fungal or the wrath of God and I thought oh it could be fungal like they might have more in common with the last Of us than we realized I hadn't remembered them talking about that. I

[01:05:15] Feel like you learned a lot but also not like where does it take us like, you know I mean It's like you learn stuff but also like the most important bit of information He whispers to Rick and then we don't find out till the end of season two

[01:05:26] Yeah, and so I got that here he whispers and then they're all out on the road in season two in the aftermath of the zombie attack on Herschel's farm and It's sort of after all this chaos Shane is gone

[01:05:43] I think they had seen zombie Randall, but they knew Randall hadn't been bitten or something And so here's a clip from that moment when Rick reveals what Jenner had said. This is like the season 2 finale You know, I found Randall right he turned they wouldn't bit

[01:05:59] How's that possible? What the hell happened? Shane killed Randall Just like he always wanted to and then the herd got him We're all infected What but the CDC Jenner told me? Whatever it is We all carry it and you never said anything What it made a difference

[01:06:36] You knew this whole time. How could I have known for sure you saw how crazy that is not your call Okay, I when I found out about the walkers in the barn I told for the good of everyone I thought it best if people didn't know

[01:06:49] Looking back on that what I think is funny is they're like So what happened to Shane and he's all we're all infected because he doesn't want to say what happened to Shane You're all infected you all got a disease no, but we're saying you're all infected

[01:07:07] Because then he pulls Gloria's side and tells her that he killed Shane but I think he was trying to distract them I mean, I think The fact that they're all infected. It's a big deal, but it's just kind of us

[01:07:22] The real big deal is that zombies killed everyone, you know, and now there's no society left And I mean to me unless I'm missing something knowing that we're all infected just means that you just have to be careful when someone dies

[01:07:36] Yeah, you know and they would have come to that conclusion sooner or later. Mm-hmm, I think yeah Also the gender took all their bloods that maybe he just means all of you and your group are in fact

[01:07:48] I don't want everyone else but it's clear that he means everyone everyone. Yeah, and when he was So when this happened? He whispered something into Rick's ear. I think we had speculated. He told Rick Lori was pregnant Because we knew they took their blood

[01:08:05] And I wasn't sure if the writers knew ahead of time what he actually said But when he's giving Andrea the blood test and she says what's the point if we were infected? We'd all be running a fever

[01:08:17] that line makes me think they had this in mind the whole time because the point is that he's just Studying them and probably checking to see if his hypothesis is true that everyone is already infected. You know what I mean?

[01:08:30] I agree and I have one more point. Should I do that before we go to notes? Yes Okay, it's the French so We in gender I'm gonna say this all in French The French were The last ones to hold out as far as I know

[01:08:51] While our people were bolting out of the doors and committing suicide in the hallways They stayed in the labs till the end which Makes them sound more noble the French scientists

[01:09:03] But as we learn in world beyond maybe it was because they were doing it out of guilt for starting the whole thing Jenner says they they thought they were close to a solution and someone said what happened and he goes the same thing that's happening here

[01:09:18] No power grid ran out of juice, but apparently they didn't have a self-destruct mechanism because we see the lab Later, so they weren't dumb enough to rig the lab to blow up if the power minions in France So the world what I'm talking about

[01:09:34] I I don't know if I've talked about this too much, but I feel like this is a good time Just because it's the Jenner episode so the post-credit scene in world beyond Was great. It actually had nothing to do with the rest of the series

[01:09:48] No, but it was more just Gimple's idea of what's going on in the larger Walking Dead world Which then ended up connected to the Dow show. So it was a lab in France and there's a graffiti saying Laman so Nessie see on the wall

[01:10:07] Which means the dead were born here or suggests that the Zia started in this lab we don't know for sure still I would say but that's what it suggests and There's a scientist woman in there and she

[01:10:21] It's abandoned. It's an abandoned lab and she's copying files from a hard drive under a computer and she's watching a video of dr Jenner and It's he references his wife and clearly she's still alive

[01:10:35] So the video is before was recorded before what we're seeing in this Walking Dead season 1 finale episode You can clearly hear the beginning of what Jenner says in the end, but there's action happening in the middle

[01:10:49] So people are talking over it. And so I'm just gonna read that part. But here's the first part of what Jenner says The problem as I see it is that the samples we have simply aren't fresh

[01:11:01] There's just too many variables involved in how the clock affects them and even after a few minutes We we can't get an accurate picture of the biology involved At least from the start we obviously Have seen the end Again and again

[01:11:22] Still we will have fresh samples soon. That's a certainty well in brighter news, I Reviewed the latest data on your side and the use of cardiac plaques as a host medium for steroidal therapies

[01:11:37] To jumpstart the circulatory system in the hopes of short-circuiting the brain or perhaps regaining function to cause nerve Confusion is a fascinating approach and we are all anxiously awaiting anything

[01:11:50] So it sounds like he's trying to figure out a way to bring them back after they've turned, you know Jumpstart and think about fresh samples is interesting. I don't know that the samples they're shipping over from France are fresh But they're different at least I guess yeah, when

[01:12:09] Eric Cain started bringing up all that stuff I was like should I get into my whole argument about why I think the Daryl show is good I'm like now we're talking about fear. I'll just let So then you heard a click here

[01:12:23] It's this man who came in and hold the scientists at gunpoint And he asked in French where the primrose team is And she says the team went to a conference in Ohio and was not in the lab when it happened

[01:12:34] No, they say Toledo because I was like, it's a little high, but we think it's Ohio. Oh They just said Toledo. I think it's Ohio though. I think so Yeah, because we find that elsewhere and we're all beyond I think okay So so the man accuses her

[01:12:52] Her lab of starting the virus and vows to kill the doctors if they return and then he shoots her dead and she and leaves and Then during all this the tape is still running in the background and he's Jenner saying we all have to work together here

[01:13:07] Solidarity right back to the matter is we only have so many supplies left. We're not getting any more So everything counts that much more every collection every test I almost broke a peach his all sort of little minutiae

[01:13:21] But I broke a Petri dish yesterday and almost put my fist through the wall. He broke a Petri dish I think that's funny. They put that in there. He's a klutz He's no good scientist, man

[01:13:32] Glad the other dr. Jenner stopped me from putting his fist through a wall. The infirmary is closed Yeah sealed actually we've been venturing out for the basics. The other dr. Jenner has gotten pretty damn good at it So she's better at zombie killing too, apparently. Yeah

[01:13:50] He goes but getting back to the data the idea of activating systems to work against reanimation is a promising idea but as so maybe that's after I Don't know preventing someone from reanimating

[01:14:01] But as we've discussed the systems themselves have to be studied to see exactly how they're working or not working For example, can we build up acids and bodies that don't have blood flow?

[01:14:10] Of course that gets right back to the that idea of jump-starting circulatory systems. We need to do two things simultaneously Observe this and attack this So then the scientists that got shot and dead Reanimates and bolts to the door and pounds against it

[01:14:29] Denton very quickly. Yeah, so it's like a stronger faster variant zombie first official variant we see I know we think we see variants in season one, but Yeah, this is after the writers thought of this whole concept of variance. Yeah

[01:14:46] Potentially retcon the season one loop, but this was the first intentional one yet So here's the last part of what Jenner said Variant cohorts you referred to in our last communication. We haven't seen anything like that here at all. Nothing close. I

[01:15:06] Hope this finds you as well as you can be I Hope you don't lose faith The day will come and when we are going to beat this thing So He's a lot more optimistic when his wife is still alive interesting use of the day will come

[01:15:33] Yeah as a positive thing, right? I think they're on purpose, huh? And and that's the thing too that it has me feel Critical of him because when his wife was alive

[01:15:45] He was like, yeah, maybe we can I mean, I guess he also thought she was the only one smart enough left to Come up with a cure or whatever. So all hope was lost and she was gone

[01:15:58] So that scene connects a few things for me it it has to do as we just said with the variants We saw near the end of The Walking Dead the ones that could climb and grab things and seem smarter We still don't know how they're created

[01:16:13] And then yeah, I think the writers had in mind that the Zed's were seeing in season one were this sort of Zombie to later on in the series as a retcon I also think it follows up on Jenner mentioning the lab in France, of course and

[01:16:29] In this episode we just covered and then the Daryl show I think is gonna connect to all of this and hopefully it will answer Questions I have like did the zombie apocalypse actually start from this lab. How did that happen? Why?

[01:16:43] Was an accident or what were the science trying to do who's this primrose team and what what are they doing? Why are there variants? Were they intentionally created or did they just naturally emerge somehow? Is it significance that some of these French scientists were in Ohio?

[01:17:01] And why did are they trying to say they introduced the zombie? virus to the US Did Janae the villain and Daryl and her scientists pick up their research, you know, I if they're gonna have

[01:17:19] Follow all this up at this point. I think it would be nice to get some answers to some of that stuff You know, I think so. I think the time has come to start pulling it together Yeah

[01:17:31] So that's all I had except for some notes. What do you got any notes same notes and my bits? Um Carl says his prayers Laurie says go to bed and say your prayers. Don't know if that's something

[01:17:42] I don't know didn't have the Grimes family down as being overtly religious. Yeah, but yeah interesting I think there's a lot of people in the US who are just They go to church on Sunday and they say their prayers

[01:17:58] I guess that's but but the I don't know if they consider themselves super religious, you know, it's just yeah Like no judgment about it. I just thought it was interesting because it It just hadn't really come up before

[01:18:13] I mean as far as I know, I don't know this for sure But from what I get if you're in like the South People just say hey, what church do you go to not? Do you go to church, you know?

[01:18:25] Jenner says to his wife that he did the best I could was the time I had when he's dressed up fancy for his his end which is Kind of heartbreaking, but I don't I'm not feeling less sympathetic towards him after our discussion today on that note Jenner

[01:18:43] Talks about the doors being like smash brief and Darrell says your head ain't which I thought was a great My suspension of disbelief about the grenade going off and only one window breaking no windows come in on any of the vehicles that are parked

[01:18:57] Not that far away. Nobody died Who didn't intend to die There's an amazing shot where Dale's eyebrows come up over the sandbags, which really made me laugh And the song that they play at the end is tomorrow is a long time by Bob Dylan

[01:19:13] I remember Karen loved that but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to remember it I Remember Karen loved that but apparently The music playing during the camp time is actually by Peter Gabriel. I was looking this up on tune find apparently It's one of his pieces

[01:19:29] My music tidbits, how about your notes? In the hospital outside Rick's room It's so interesting because I swear when we first started watching The Walking Dead I thought oh the zombie sound so much more whispery than

[01:19:47] the zombies I'm used to but now I think they got more and more raspy and whispery over the years because they just sound moany to me now there and I think that was less moaning than I was used to at the time

[01:20:00] But now in comparison to what we currently have it's more like the old Romero zombies Yeah, I do think that ties into that over the course over time on the Walking Dead They wanted to take away some of their human feel

[01:20:14] When our people are first let into the CDC Jenner's there with his shotgun Keeping his distance and he goes anybody infected and Rick says one of our group was he didn't make it and I'm like Is just no no Like let me tell you a story

[01:20:36] Yes, so Jim do you know Jim yeah, well Jim he's not here but Jim was in fact I'm like They would think he was more honest if he's radical honesty Rick said to Jenner you don't know what it's like out there

[01:20:57] You may think you do but you don't and I'm like neither do you Rick not yet? You're gonna find out Darrell talking about the doctor packing heat was quite funny as well

[01:21:09] He's like two doctors usually. Yeah, I keep and Jenner's like I learned he also has a little joke with Carl Where is that? I'm gonna keep my eye on you and Carl's a little smile. I'm like Carl does go to some dark place

[01:21:25] On the way out of the CDC I remember thinking man so badass when they were shooting the zombies in the head and Darrell Decapitated one and now that they we've seen that Stuff like that a million times. It's so much less for me

[01:21:41] I mean, I still remember appreciating it so I can appreciate that but it's just less impactful Yeah, this was the first time you really I think had a scene like that in The Walking Dead Yeah

[01:21:54] I have a quote from Kirkman about this episode, but do you know something about that in your I don't actually So in 2014 Robert Kirkman told The Hollywood Reporter quote if I had to do it again I wouldn't have done the CDC episode

[01:22:12] It possibly gave away too much information and was such a big change very early on in the series I feel like there might have been a better way to wrap up the first season. It ended up being a fun episode

[01:22:23] I love the character of dr. Jenner and thought Noah did an amazing job But there were things in out that episode that I think seemed very much not of The Walking Dead world

[01:22:31] He said I've been careful in the comic series to not say what's happening in other parts of the world There's something that's gonna be fun to explore in the spinoff series By which I'm pretty sure he means fear because it was back in 2014

[01:22:44] So he thought there would be possibilities for that He goes but the fact that France is mentioned in that episode and other things like that I probably would have steered away from that stuff if I had to do it all over again

[01:22:54] So I guess he was open to exploring other parts of the world in spinoffs But he wanted The Walking Dead proper to feel, you know, just of its area And people not to know what was happening Yeah So IMDB for this episode Not the most interesting

[01:23:16] It talks about Dara Bond firing most of the writers before season 2. I don't know how true that is I need to go back and actually look because I know Glenn Mazzara was a writer

[01:23:25] So I don't think he got fired and or maybe he got fired and brought back and just double-check that yeah, because I think Nobody else came back though Yeah, so what did it say Pardon, it just said he fired him didn't say why or anything? Okay. Yeah

[01:23:46] Edwin Jenner is probably a reference to Edward Jenner who was the inventor of the smallpox vaccination Um King County is Made up. There is no King County, Georgia It was probably an homage to Stephen King who's good friends with Frank Darabont

[01:24:04] it is the only IMDB season of The Walking Dead on IMDB who has which has no episodes under 8.0 out of 10. So it's the highest rated on IMDB And it is interesting no, it's IMDB that no windows are affected by the explosion and in the RV and

[01:24:23] You know, the grenade goes off and all the windows remain intact And in terms of our apocalypse timeline, this is day 64. Hmm. So Rick's been away for five days. Hmm Yeah Darabont has done several Stephen King adaptations the mist

[01:24:41] Green Mile, of course Shawshank Redemption, maybe more. I don't know That makes sense. So they've worked quite closely together King County All right, I I didn't have a good I couldn't think of a good only on The Walking Dead

[01:24:56] I said only on The Walking Dead would you see a medical scan of a bullet going through a brain and Melissa Silvestri because I asked in the chat said only in The Walking Dead

[01:25:05] Do you feed your guests a great meal and try to blow them up the next day? Yeah, I think so only The Walking Dead would you bother giving someone a painkiller for their hangover when you're blowing them up and less than two hours later, so Yeah So

[01:26:00] During an interview with comic book artist David Finch Robert Kirkman kind of let it slip that Steven Yen's gonna be playing This character called the sentry in the upcoming Marvel movie Thunderbolts. Did you hear that too?

[01:26:14] I read about it. I don't know anything about who this character is or what so I'm excited to hear more It's really fascinating and I actually don't know how much of the story I should tell because it might be

[01:26:26] Spoilery so but I read the early century comics and I loved it and the Thunderbolts Was crazy to the Thunderbolts basically is a bunch of antiheroes that team up and the sentry is Like Marvel's Superman he's super duper powerful, but also can be very unstable

[01:26:52] There are some real twists to his story that if they do in the movies will be really cool and I don't want to Reveal just in case I'd love to just talk all about it. But anyway, if it's true, it's very exciting

[01:27:05] We'll have to cover it. Oh, yeah When I mean, it'll probably be like a million years, but yes, that's really cool. I'm pleased for Steven Yeah, I just I was gonna save this for the end. But since you mentioned covering it I

[01:27:19] Put up a poll asking listeners if they would rather during Season breaks that we take a break and cover a movie or something and I'd mentioned specifically Return of the Living Dead because I know you hadn't seen nice

[01:27:35] And or if we should just go straight through like to season two and most people said the movie maybe because they want that one in Particular. Yeah, and then Nathan Eshelman has suggested if we keep doing that

[01:27:47] you know taking breaks and covering something else that we could either do like a zombie movie or a movie that Features an actor who's in the season that we just covered something like that. So that sounds like could be fun

[01:27:58] I really want to watch at some point for the podcast blood quantum which is the Michael Gray eyes isn't it who played to kill attacker and Fear the Walking Dead when it was still good and it's about indigeneity and zombie apocalypse

[01:28:17] Interesting to look at and I don't know existed. That'll be perfect when we do our fear the Walking Dead rewatch we can Yeah If it's good Yeah, I need to actually watch and see if it's decent or not. Um, but yeah, I thought that would be cool. Cool

[01:28:42] All right. Let's move on to listen bones groans grunts All right Jennifer McGinley hi Jennifer says Darrell in a high-pitched voice your heading funnier every time you watch I agree Yeah, I'm glad you're watching this along with us all you guys

[01:29:02] Kirstie Keene says a good finale lots of things laid in for the future the Andrea Dale conflict Shane's turn for the worst even hints Carol is not as mild as she seems to be

[01:29:13] well, that is a very good point Kirstie all that stuff is gonna play out and I You just made me like it a little bit more by mentioning that Agree. Okay, Melissa Sylvester. He says the first of many many times Carl saves the day seeing her hand tremble

[01:29:27] She held out the grenade made me smile. She has an epic character arc in the show. I Thought it was interesting. I thought it interesting that we don't see Darrell in the showers

[01:29:36] Yes, I wonder if the writers already knew about Darrell scars and therefore made the choice not to show some hot Darrell skin here To keep it a surprise Personally, I think it would have been intriguing and perhaps added a layer of compassion to Darrell for Darrell

[01:29:48] Or at least hinted there are reasons behind the way he is Melissa I love that. I'm gonna say though. I feel like Darrell might just not have showered because he doesn't in Alexandria Darrell doesn't take showers. Everyone knows that Darrell seems to not enjoy

[01:30:09] When in France, I don't I would guess they didn't know about the scars yet and In which case it's probably a good thing Then they wouldn't have been able to add that in later, you know, because we also don't see Carol or Jackie in the showers

[01:30:25] So that's interesting. Maybe it was yeah. Yeah only certain people maybe And and Darrell all took a shower together and they just didn't show that exactly just wasn't relevant to the main Yeah, it's interesting I think they all took showers honestly, but yeah You would

[01:30:47] Chandra right answers Melissa saying I thought it was interesting that timid Carol stashed a grenade in her handbag I wonder why she kept it why she didn't give it back to Rick earlier. Was it just so she could save the day later It's a good question

[01:31:00] Carol's tricksy you never know Becky Fenner Anderson says drunk Glenn was adorable loved seeing them get at least a brief time to relax and let their guard down The scene with Shane and Laurie was tough to watch

[01:31:14] I assume it was to show Shane star spiraled to the dark side and was well acted by both actors I was fascinated by the video of the test subjects progression into a zombie Jenner's calmness as he saw his end approaching was eerie

[01:31:26] I wish we could have seen some some flashbacks to the progression of how he ended up the last one left Andrea once again annoyed me great actor. I just cannot get behind the character. I was a nervous wreck watching the crew rush to escape

[01:31:40] Fair points all Becky I Bet you that scene was very disturbing to a lot of women in particular Unfortunately, alright, so let's play our one call from Gloria Hi, Lucy and Jason. It's Gloria from Salem. S this is for the finale of season one of The Walking Dead

[01:32:00] Wow, what a way to end a season that explosion was Catastrophic and the Bob Dylan song was perfect perfect song to ride them out Tomorrow is a long time and just like a woman are two of my favorite of Dylan's

[01:32:17] What are yours? Did you like them at all? Okay, I have to tell I don't really know Dylan's music that well, honestly get into it more. I don't want Dylan Gloria for me. It's don't think twice. It's alright

[01:32:32] That's great. I'm glad you had an answer to that. It's it's all about the lyrics with him, right the poetry of it Yeah, yeah He goes on you guys something that shot a Darryl in between Shane and Rick I think it was them

[01:32:45] I may be wrong. Let me know Reminding me of Bella Swan after she turns into a vampire I don't know if I like but the last movie of the series when she was first hunting I don't know She was sneaking up on the deer the mountain lion

[01:33:00] But all of a sudden we see her in between two trees and it looks like a horror movie It was so funny, I mean that was just hilarious to me not the situation at the CDC But the look on Darryl's face compared to on the hunt Bella

[01:33:15] Yes, I'm a dork say Livy It was really nice to see them all eating and drinking and laughing and just having a good time And totally getting a good night's sleep before all hell broke loose Shane Granted he was drunk, but there's no excuse On Laurie

[01:33:35] Love the actor. I hate the character one last thing You guys had said you expected to hear all of us sing. Well, that's perfectly fine with me I am a singer all have been not in a band, but back in the 80s

[01:33:48] I made a demo tape totally dating myself and I was prepared to move to LA to find my fortune Had my plane ticket and a place to stay and everything However

[01:33:59] Universe wasn't with me in a week before I supposed to leave those and a head-on collision with a drunk driver that changed my life Forever that was the short version

[01:34:08] So now I just go to karaoke bars and sing whenever I can. That's it for me. See you in season two I'm really sorry to hear about that that the accident and also where's the song like I was expecting

[01:34:24] I thought you were about to sing and then yeah, you really built us up there. Yeah more more We'd love to hear it She made me think when talking about Darryl look on Darryl's face the look on Dale's face because he had that same look that he

[01:34:41] Gave Shane last week When he I forget what it was exactly when he was figuring out that the place is gonna explode. He's just Got the big buggy eyes I All right, that is our show episode 554. Thanks for listening everyone

[01:35:06] We did it. We did our marathon. We did it. We did our marathon week pretty great as I said, it looks like next episode will most likely be return of the living dead and Then we'll move on to walking dead season two

[01:35:22] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcast Com And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts

[01:35:32] I saw someone recently had posted you should do a Ted Lasso podcast and I'm like we do Excellent the revisited podcast with Kristen and Ben. They're excellent Podcasters and they have great chemistry together. And if you like Ted Lasso, I would highly recommend checking that out

[01:35:50] Excellent this episode made possible by patreon supporters like Mandy binder who pledged their support at patreon.com Slash Jason cabassi. So thank you so much to Mandy and and everybody else who continues to pledge on there

[01:36:05] It's still ongoing. I can't believe it this next week. We're having Zen head Thanksgiving and we're all gonna talk about what we're thankful for All right, that is our show