558: "Save the Last One" (TWD S2E3 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast, I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is the Cast of Us episode 558. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 2 episode 3, Save the Last Dance. I mean, Save the Last Bullet. Save the Last Bullet for Otis.

[00:01:10] We have a special guest today, it's Karen Chee. Welcome to the podcast, Karen. Yay, thanks so much for having me on again. I'm really excited to talk about this episode. You had asked for this one in particular.

[00:01:22] Well, first let me mention Karen's a longtime listener and contributor, occasional guest co-host. You might have heard her on our episode about beef, which I think was a really good one. And we've had a lot of compliments about that. I loved it.

[00:01:36] And also the one we did on Minari, which was also great. What else? Have you ever guessed when we've talked about The Walking Dead? I don't think so. I did a few episodes of Dead City with Lucy and Ben. Yes. So that was fun.

[00:01:51] And then I think I did like a Zed Head show with Nathan Eshelman. That was fun. Oh yeah, that was great. But yeah, so this is your first Walking Dead proper, which is kind of cool. Yeah, I just, yeah.

[00:02:03] I didn't even realize that until you pointed it out. So it is season two, episode three, Save the Last One. This is a big episode. I kind of forgot. Well, I guess I was looking forward to talking about it, but it's a really big one.

[00:02:22] In the Walking Dead history. So in general, Karen, how was it for you to rewatch it? Have you watched, have you rewatched a lot? Yeah, I tend to like go back and watch some of my favorite seasons and episodes only,

[00:02:37] not like do a complete rewatch like some people. I'll kind of be selective. And this one I have rewatched a couple of times just because I'm a cheesy, sentimental person. And the thing about that we'll talk about later with the deer and how Carl looked at

[00:02:53] the deer, like it's a cheesy sentiment, but like it gets me every time sometimes just because I think it's so applicable to our lives. And we can talk about that more later.

[00:03:05] But I, yeah, I'm tempted to ask you about it now, but I know you were already going to plan to talk about it later, so we'll hear about it. Cool. So yeah, I mean, did you watch, how was it to watch it again this time?

[00:03:17] Yeah, it was, it was interesting. I've forgotten how well, I think it's pretty well paced, but I forgot some of the finer details of how much Shane struggled with Otis at the end. I know, I forgot about that too. Punching him and kicking.

[00:03:36] Yeah, so it was still a shock when I got to that point. And I think that's why a lot of people love this episode because it has like the slower moments, but it has this really big climactic scene at the end and, you know, action scenes as well.

[00:03:50] So it's a cool episode. So Lucy, what about you? Oh, it was a good one to come back to. I'd forgotten almost all of the B plots in this episode. I just remembered Shane and Otis.

[00:04:04] And it was interesting to watch from the perspective of knowing unambiguously what happened and trying to remember what it's like watching it for the first time, not knowing. And how they play it out with Shane arriving on his own.

[00:04:16] And then the reveal that it wasn't as quick as we thought. It's a smart bit of storytelling and a very compelling episode, I think. It was. Yeah. When you think back, you just remember this is the one where Shane shot Otis.

[00:04:33] And there was a big debate about whether that was OK or not, whether that was the right thing to do. But it was such the way it was structured, where it was told out of sequence really added to it.

[00:04:47] It really made it a great episode of TV for maximum drama, subverting your expectations and yeah, the pacing with the conversations interspersed with action. It was, I think, one of the better episodes so far of the rewatch, really, you know, season one and two combined so far.

[00:05:08] In fact, I think it was a really good episode. So maybe my opinion about season two is changing because I really think this is a great episode of The Walking Dead. I remember you saying at the start of the rewatch, Jason, that you'd changed your mind

[00:05:24] about stuff that happens in this episode. I think it was this you were talking about. Will we get into that later? We will. But I thought I had changed my mind because I remembered being very critical of Shane and now I think he did the right thing.

[00:05:40] And I'll say why later. But going back and I just like listened to skim through some of our original episode on this that Karen and I did back in 2011. And I felt pretty much the same way back then. I was shocked.

[00:05:54] I was like, oh, I guess I hadn't changed my mind. I already kind of thought. I mean, I think back then I thought maybe it was a little bit more debatable than I do now.

[00:06:02] But I was still thinking, yeah, I can understand why he did what he did, what he thought he had to do to save Carl. Yeah, it definitely rewatching it was more complex than I remembered. I remembered it being just Shane's a bad guy. He did this.

[00:06:17] Whereas now I'm like, oh no, it was a bit more layered. There were more beats to it. I mean, I think over time I have disagreed with more of what Shane has done than I've agreed with.

[00:06:27] And so I think in my mind I just thought, yeah, Shane, he was always doing bad things. And then I was like, well, but when I really think about the thing with Otis, maybe he did have a point. Maybe I was too hard on him.

[00:06:39] But then when I went back and listened, I wasn't hard on him. I felt exactly the same way I do now pretty much, which is shocking to me. Do you think it's a shock because it's the first time there's a human on human attack

[00:06:52] between the characters, main characters? Like the only other ones are Merle and the Vatos. I remember when I first saw it, first saw that moment, it was so out of the blue. It felt so out of the blue.

[00:07:08] You know, we were, cause I'm just going to go ahead since we're talking about it. When you see Shane in the bathroom looking at himself, he looks haunted. Some shit went down clearly and he's not feeling good about it.

[00:07:24] But then you see that he has a spot missing in his hair. And I'd forgotten about this, but when I listened back, Karen and I thought he'd been bitten and that now we're going to go see, oh shit, he's bitten and now Shane's going to die and

[00:07:39] he hasn't told anyone. So then when he goes, yeah. So then when he just turns and goes, sorry, and shoots Otis in the leg without having a chance to process, I'm pretty sure I just thought, oh wow, Shane is bad. That was just my thought.

[00:07:57] Like he just, I didn't even process why he would even think to do that. I just thought evil, evil, evil. And then, you know, you had to think about it a little bit and why, why the hell did you do that? Watch the episode again.

[00:08:10] But it was so shocking. Yeah. It was so out of the blue and yeah, just to kill someone like that was very shocking. But I'd forgotten how traumatized Bernthal plays it as well when he gets back to the farm, like he's not okay. Yeah.

[00:08:25] Back at the farm, like he's, he's shell shocked from what he's done and that hit different rewatching it. I remember being very like, oh, this is dark Shane. This is dark Shane. I think dark Shane doesn't shoot Otis.

[00:08:38] I think dark Shane comes from shooting Otis if that makes sense. Like I think it's a hardening rather than like his evil side came out and he shot him. It's more he shot him. He looks inside himself and then things get fucked up.

[00:08:51] This is the start of his unraveling almost. Or like it's like a organic regression kind of. Yeah. It sort of untaps the beast. It's similar, I think in a way, not exactly, but you know, we're seeing Carol and she seems

[00:09:10] so meek all the time and it's so weird because that's not how we're used to her. And I think her formative moment was seeing Sophia come out of the barn that started her change but I don't think it happened overnight.

[00:09:24] And I think it's sort of like that with Shane here. It's still, I think Shane's transformation is quicker, but it still doesn't happen overnight. Yeah. Like he's hot. He's not like, I'm a badass now. I'm just going to kill whoever. He's like, oh my God, what just happened?

[00:09:39] He comes back and they're like, we got clothes for you. They're Otis's. Oh no. Oh, awful. Awful. And he's standing in the bathroom like, in his incredibly like fit sculpted body. Like, yes, I have to wear these shitty down grease now. It's not good looking.

[00:09:57] And we only can take something different away in retrospect when Maggie says they're Otis's clothes. Like at first it's sad, but now it's like, oh, he must be so guilty. Feeling so guilty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. We didn't know yet. Right.

[00:10:14] We didn't know when she said that. We knew that he probably felt bad about having lost him. Yeah. And the whole like shaving of the head is so symbolic slash cathartic in that moment.

[00:10:26] Like he's trying to, it's like, it makes me think of like Lady Macbeth trying to wash her hands of the blood and Macbeth after all the murders and it's him getting rid of that stink of guilt.

[00:10:37] But the things that details that I noticed if we're getting into it about that, that I'd forgotten are one that Shane is badly injured. Like he's quite hobbled by having gone over his ankle.

[00:10:52] So in that sense, he and Otis are much more equal than I remembered them being. I just remembered it as like Otis is weighing him down. So he literally just shoots him. But no, actually Shane is, it becomes apparent at a certain point, I think that only one

[00:11:06] of them is going to get out. And at first Shane is like, you go without me, like leave me here. Oh Otis, I bet you wish you said yes. And then the two of them get on quite well and the Otis is actually quite smart in the

[00:11:21] plans that he makes. And he says, you know, you go here, I'll go there. I'll draw them away from you. He saved Shane's ass a couple of times. I'd forgotten all of those little details that make it more shocking.

[00:11:33] Like look at like in my head, I was like, oh, of course Shane was going to do that. He will. Whereas this, I'm like, oh, oh no. Oh my God. This is more complex than I remembered it being and more complex, I think, than like

[00:11:47] some of the bad seasons of The Walking Dead would have had it be. Like, you know, the middle, the saggy middle of The Walking Dead may not have had it be as nuanced. Here's why I think he's right because Carl's dying. He's having seizures.

[00:12:01] If Carl doesn't get back soon with the respirator, then Herschel's going to have to operate without it and he'll probably die, almost surely die. Shane and Otis have this respirator. They have meds, but they're stuck. Shane hurt his leg, like you said, he's severely hobbled.

[00:12:19] At times he's just not even limping, he's just hopping on his good leg. He fell down, you know, and dragged Otis down with him. And he's so hobbled that he's ready to give up and says, we're not going to make it. You go without me.

[00:12:35] And Otis says, no, I'm not leaving you behind. We got to try. So he was ready to sacrifice himself. And you know, I think a lot of people thought, me included, I mean, everybody considered, well, they maybe they could have just tried to outrun the zombies anyway.

[00:12:52] And I think that the writers intended it to be that that wasn't an option. You know, I think of course, when we see a zombie set up like this, we're always thinking about what could they have done differently?

[00:13:06] But I think that the question, the point of the way this was set up was not to say, what else could they have done? The question was, did they only had three choices that Shane did. He could allow the zombies to overtake them and kill them both.

[00:13:22] He could sacrifice himself to distract the zombies so Otis could get away and save Carl. He kind of tried that. Otis said no, he could shoot Otis to distract the zombies so he could get away.

[00:13:34] So like you said, Lucy, only I think the way the writers wanted it was that only one of them was going to get out of there or neither of them. If he picked the first choice, they would both die and Carl would probably die too.

[00:13:47] He did try to choose the second choice and sacrifice himself to his credit. And so the question is, is, you know, given that he only had two choices to either let

[00:13:55] them both die or to kill Otis so he could save himself and Carl, did he pick the right choice? And when you frame it that way, it's obvious that it's the right choice to me. It's either save Shane and Carl or save no one.

[00:14:06] Those are the two choices. You know what I mean? I mean, the only third choice potentially is for Shane to just go, fuck you Otis and throw his backpack at him and then run over into the zombies himself. That is a third choice.

[00:14:18] And you know, it's maybe riskier because he's not in control of what Otis does after that. Yeah. That's the thing is he doesn't. He knows he can do it. Does he know? Yeah. He knows he can do it. Um, so we've turned into a pro-shaming podcast.

[00:14:32] If you ever come on vacation with us, one of us, because if you make us late for the buffet, we will fuck you up. Because the question, I mean, some people might say, hey, Shane chose to sacrifice Otis in favor of Carl. So he chose Carl over Otis.

[00:14:47] But that's not, that's not right. It's either none of them or Shane and Carl. Those are the two choices, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sorry. Let's let's have Karen chime in. You're supposed to be the guest of honor and you just leapt right in.

[00:15:03] But why don't you chime in either with your thoughts on this or if you want to do another point? No, I think you guys like pretty much cover it because like, um, since we already know

[00:15:13] in retrospect that like Shane shot Otis, um, we can still admire the episode because of the way it's structured. Like you said, it slowly disseminates and releases this information to the viewer with cross-cutting to delay the impact of that climactic moment.

[00:15:30] And like with all the slow burns, with the other scenes and, and pairs of characters that we follow this climax makes it like everything more explosive. And one of my points is that, uh, where did it go?

[00:15:45] Sorry that, uh, oh yeah, I was going to say check off shaved head. It's an, it's another book ending technique, right? Cause we were left with a cliffhanger at the end of last week's episode with Shane and Otis just trapped behind a bunch of zombies.

[00:16:02] And then you see Shane in the bathroom was like, well what happened? And it could be anything for, we don't know Carl's alive. Like that, that's why I was thinking it's like when we see that we're like, why is he so sad? Is Carl dead? Like what's happened?

[00:16:16] Like anything could have happened. Yeah. Um, did you guys pick up the opening frame of this episode? I never noticed that picture that hangs in the bathroom. It says wherever you wander, wherever you roam, be happy and healthy and glad to come home.

[00:16:34] And it's like such a great juxtaposition to Shane coming back to the farm without Otis and having done this like really shocking thing. And the picture takes on meaning only when viewed in retrospect. That's incredible. Yeah. I love the whole greenhouse actually.

[00:16:52] I was thinking that I love the kind of weird oldie timey picture portraits of people in their family, all the old like vet equipment, the kind of kitschy farmhouse stuff. Yeah. I just love it as a set. I'd love to visit. Yeah. It's like lived in. Yeah.

[00:17:09] I mean, it's, uh, I was going to say, I'm pretty sure all of that was actually filmed in the farmhouse, not on a set. Yeah. Really? I think that's true. Yeah. So maybe it was the families.

[00:17:22] No, I think they had to redress all of it, but yeah, I think it was all in the farmhouse. I'm pretty sure. It made me think of like 12 years in the future when Connie and Virgil are stuck in the horror

[00:17:33] house and how that was probably a nice farmhouse once with the eyes scratched out and stuff. And I was like, oh, also I realized from this episode and from coverage of dead city and

[00:17:46] it definitely does happen in the comics, but we actually, we do have confirmation of it in the show that Maggie must go back to the farm at some point and let things or see things because she talks about taking her show there, baby Herschel.

[00:18:00] That made me kind of sad when she was looking at the pictures on the fridge thinking, oh, she's going to come back here and her life's going to be very different when she's next.

[00:18:08] I mean, I did think, you know, okay, can't they just let the herd pass and go back to the farm? But I think there's some fear the walking dead style geography thing where there was

[00:18:19] like water around the farm keeping the zeds away, but then it dried up a certain time of year or something like that. Stupid summer. So anything else on that, Karen? I think we kind of already talked about it, but one of my sub points or questions was

[00:18:37] why do we still root for Shane? Is this the start of a tragic hero? And I think it's because the character devolves into something far scarier than the walkers. Like it's a human that has agency.

[00:18:51] And at least for the first two episodes of the season, like you guys already talked about it, he seems to Shane seems to be more practical than Rick. Right. So we root for him. He has this attitude that he's made for the apocalypse.

[00:19:11] Like he has the right mindset for the apocalypse. And that's why Rick starts with that whole story about the Hyundai coupe. I love the Hyundai product place. And he's like, the gas car. Hyundai. Yeah. Yeah, I think I mean, the first couple of episodes of this season.

[00:19:32] As I've talked about on the previous two podcasts, are Rick fretting over his decisions and making, I think, a really bad decision to leave Sophia under that tree, but also, you know, bring Carl with them to find Sophia and then he gets shot and and just other little

[00:19:50] things to whether he should go try to find Shane or not. Just really stressing that he's doubting himself and other people may be doubting him, too. So that sort of brings him down a little bit. His leadership cachet, I guess.

[00:20:03] And in that context, Shane, this is all about him. And so I think the idea is to compare and contrast and also to start Shane down this path where he's I mean, when he's in the bathroom looking at himself in the mirror and

[00:20:23] he's really holding his own eye contact to me, that's like, yeah, I feel really bad about what just happened, but he's not ashamed of it. Like when you're ashamed, you can't look yourself in the eye.

[00:20:34] But he's just sort of coming to terms with this is the world we live in and this is how it's going to have to be now. And so I think starting the two episodes with shaky Rick and then having this is setting

[00:20:47] up a whole season of contrast between Shane feeling like he's the kind of leader who can keep more people alive than Rick can, you know, and then the whole Randall thing comes in and on different sides of that.

[00:21:00] And I forget what else, but I'll be interested to look and see. But I just feel like that's kind of the crux of season two is Rick style versus Shane style. So that when we get to the point where Shane decides it's in everyone's best

[00:21:12] interest to kill Rick, it makes sense from his point of view, thinking that, you know, more people are going to live with me as leader. And that's why for the rest of The Walking Dead, we always thought, how would Shane

[00:21:26] handle this? That's why that Walking Dead Destiny's game that came out has such a great idea to take things that happened in The Walking Dead. But you get to make different choices. And one of the choices in that game is to have Shane survive instead of Rick.

[00:21:39] But unfortunately, they sucked and it wasn't done well because I think it's a great idea, you know, and we always wonder what would Shane have done in this situation? And then you see how many people did die under Rick. And of course, it's a zombie show.

[00:21:52] People are going to die. But you sort of wonder how would things have gone with Shane? Maybe he would have been a better leader. I don't know. Yeah. The whole thesis of season two, I think, is survival of the fittest to retain your physical self or your soul.

[00:22:05] And we see that Shane, you know, I think a lot of people still root for Shane because Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like he's taking care of like your physical self. Like and that's more important than or like it's yeah, it's more logical and practical.

[00:22:21] And then you can worry about like making a new world later in season nine or whatever. Yeah. Because if you're dead, then nothing else. You can't really do anything else. Yeah. Right. That's kind of what you're saying, right? Like you have to be alive to.

[00:22:35] Yeah. So it's more concrete and people like understand that easier. I think as well in this episode, we see the start of Rick's obsession with finding a place. The place he starts to see. He talks to Laurie about it of like, maybe we'll find a place like this.

[00:22:53] Maybe this. I don't know. A place. And that becomes his fixation is if he can find a home, if he can find a place for people to be, he can make this safe place.

[00:23:03] And that's Rick's kind of arc for the rest of the the rest of his time on the show is all about this fixation with a location like that will solve everything. That will be the solution to the problem. And he's not wrong necessarily.

[00:23:16] Like a safe place will solve a lot of their problems. But he's often in pursuit of that over some of the things that are more immediate. And Shane is dealing with like immediate problem solving. Yeah. It interested me that I could not remember.

[00:23:35] I think we spoke about this on the last week's podcast episode about me being annoyed that Laurie then changes her mind and is like, Shane, stay, stay. Don't don't go away, Shane. Stay forever. And that's not a direct quote.

[00:23:47] She doesn't actually say that. And I'd forgotten completely that this episode is where she first says it. And it's because he has in effect saved Carl. And I'm toying with a different reading of it, which is. What Shane did to Laurie at the CDC is unforgivable.

[00:24:06] It's one of the lines that you should never cross in terms of sexual assault of another human being or any kind of assault like that. However. Of all the things he could do to earn her forgiveness, saving her son's life is probably high up there.

[00:24:21] So is that her way of saying we can move forward from that? Or is it something more deeper and emotional coming from her about her feelings about Shane or is it about Carl? So that gave me pause. This was the first moment in which she says it.

[00:24:36] And is that just a knee jerk response to what he's done? Or is it what she actually feels? And I'd forgotten that the two were kind of connected in that way. I'm just get from so far from her. I'm just getting Shane and Carl have a connection.

[00:24:52] Shane just saved Carl's life. Shane should be here with Carl. You can stay. I'm not getting anything about I still have feelings for you, Shane. I'm still keeping my eye open for that because I think it could be read that way

[00:25:04] depending on how it goes in the future. But I don't necessarily see any of that from Laurie right now. I think it's all about. I'm leaning more away from it, too. Yeah, I'm more like, oh, OK. It's tied up in that then. We'll see. It could. You never.

[00:25:18] In the next episode when she turns up in sexy underwear and says, stay the f*** with me then we'll know it's sexual. And about Rick thinking a place can solve all their problems. I don't think I don't think he thinks that I think it's part of it.

[00:25:33] But he's talking about this deer, you know, he's just trying to a good leader envisions a more positive future and then focuses people on that to try to achieve it. And I think that's what he's doing. She's just like, you know, what are they three days in?

[00:25:49] And she's like, it's all hell. We should just give up. And it's like, well, maybe we should hang out and see if we can do something, you know, in a place having a place is like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[00:25:59] You need security first and then you can do the other things. But he's also focused on beauty and it's all about that deer. And I'm like, it's a good thing they didn't see the season eight deer because there's no beauty. Mom, I saw it.

[00:26:14] It was f***ing terrible. I just want to die now, mom. Let me die. You should have seen it, mom. It was crap. I'm giving up on that. Laurie's like, right, that's it. Pull the plug. I don't care. I'm out. He talked about the deer, Laurie.

[00:26:36] He said it was garbage, Rick. He's like, oh, yeah. So anyway, where are we? Do you feel like Lucy, you haven't really done a point. Do you want to do a point? Yeah, I mean, I was kind of riffing on riffing on about Shane.

[00:26:51] Let me just check if I've got anything else to add to that. I guess that leads us kind of into Rick and Laurie's dilemma, which I think is going to feed into Karen's feelings about the episode, which I'm really keen to hear.

[00:27:03] But Laurie puts it to Rick that is this a world for children anymore? And it's not so much that it's crossed her mind, it's that she can't stop thinking it. And she needs Rick to tell her why it would be better another way.

[00:27:19] I.E. why would it be better for Carl to live rather than die? And I remember being really impacted by this the first time I watched the show because I was like, holy shit. It's two parents talking about the potential loss of their child. As a positive.

[00:27:35] Not as a... Yeah. Well, not yeah. I don't even know if it's a positive so much as like a release or a relief for the child. And I tried to think about where Carl goes after this relative to what Laurie predicts for him, which is like.

[00:27:52] A life of pain and running and hunger and fear. And I thought about Carl at Alexandria and how happy he and Rick and Michonne are for a really kind of brief time. And I thought, how much longer in the show does he actually live?

[00:28:05] It's a couple of years. I mean, I know Chandler Riggs ages about six years in the time that we see them. But he does have some moments of beauty. He gets to have a relationship with Judith. He gets to. Has a relationship with Enid a little bit, right?

[00:28:21] Do they actually have a boyfriend girlfriend relationship? They have a little smooch. Yeah. A little smooch in a tree. And he saves Sadiq. He saves a lot of different people. So I'm sort of thinking to myself like, no, I'm with Rick.

[00:28:34] But from where Laurie's standing, I can also see her point, which is a point of great despair and great fear. And yeah, I just sort of thought I would bring it up because I figured we would all have thoughts on it.

[00:28:48] I thought Sarah Wayne Calloway's and Andrew Lincoln acted the hell out of it. But it must have been really difficult material to work with. But I thought it was a brave thing to write because I don't think that Laurie is evil or morally bad to voice those fears.

[00:29:04] I think it's understandable given the situation that they find themselves in. But it also is very powerful at the end when you then see that Carl does pull through and you see the joy and relief on their faces.

[00:29:15] I think it's a nice emotional payoff to the conversations that have come before. I don't think it's evil, but I don't blame Rick for seeming offended, though. He he and he handled it. He wasn't too forceful about that.

[00:29:27] You know, he brought it around to the positive, but for to be like, what? Yeah, you guys get that. Laurie pretty much telegraphs what Shane did in this episode because she says she doesn't want Carl to run and run and run.

[00:29:43] And even if he survives, he ends up just another animal who doesn't know anything but survival. So she's talking about Shane at that point. Oh, yeah. We yeah. Yeah. Oh, I like that. But he wasn't.

[00:29:56] I mean, he got bitten and then he wrote really nice letters to all the people he cared about and Negan. And so I think he had a really he was a warm hearted person by the end there. You know, he wasn't some animal.

[00:30:12] He was an animal in season three. I'm talking about Carl. When he shot that little kid. Oh, that's that moment. We'll live on in infamy. Hershel's face like I saved this kid. Why? Oh, just died for you, man.

[00:30:29] I I approach this scene by also like anchoring it into my my reality in my real world. I know that some people like entertainment to escape and that's totally understandable. And also, I don't know, Jason, if you want to cut this out.

[00:30:45] But like, I looked at the scene with the context of the 2010s and I'm taking a page out of Penny and Kara's podcast because they always anchor their their podcast in a certain historical time and place. And which podcast is that still? So there's still slaying. Yes.

[00:31:10] Still slaying the Buffy Buffy. Which network can we find, though? You can website. You die. Sponsored by Hyundai.

[00:31:22] So, yeah, I took a look at the 2010s and like why the writers might have given this dilemma to Rick and Lori and how viewers at that time might have, you know, related to it.

[00:31:38] So there was the financial crises of 2007 and 2008, the worst depression since the Great Depression in the 1930s. There was Occupy Wall Street with a lot of class divide. There was the Arab Spring with revolutions and political unrest. And there was the war in Afghanistan was still going.

[00:31:59] Of course, there was the Haiti earthquake in 2010, an earthquake and tsunami in Japan in 2011. And then there was a deep water horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. So there was a lot of unrest in the world that persists until now, of course.

[00:32:16] So the question sadly kind of remains, like, why do we keep our children in this world or why? Why bring one into this world? I don't even know if Laurie knew she was pregnant at this point with Judith. Yeah.

[00:32:30] But so I was looking, I was thinking about it. And my friend who is a climate scientist, she was asked something similar. And she said, well, I brought a child into this world because there are no guarantees for a smooth life.

[00:32:46] Laurie laments that Carl, you know, if he dies, he never has to be afraid or hungry or angry. But that's the human experience. You know, that's part of living. That's the tax of living. And my friend, yeah. And my friend said, well, I don't know.

[00:33:03] My daughter could be a very mighty person in this world. And on one hand, she's very clear eyed about all the things happening in the world. She's really sober about it. But then she's also very optimistic that the next generation will be adaptable.

[00:33:22] You know, just like we see Carl and Judith adapt. And necessity breeds invention and the kids will learn to survive in the new world. Yeah. Like when we've talked about suicide before, I think a lot of times suicide happens when someone has a drop that has a loss.

[00:33:41] You know, they lose all their money or they get a they lose a relationship. A family member dies, something like that. But so it feels like you can't handle it because you're not used to it. In part, you know, I don't want to minimize what people go through.

[00:33:56] I'm just trying to analyze the psychology of it. But when you're a child who grows up under certain circumstances and that is what you're used to, then it's probably it's a different story. At least you can say that, you know, like they can adapt.

[00:34:12] But I think about that as a parent, you know, with especially climate change. That's what I'm the most worried about. What the hell is our future going to be like? And did I do the right thing bringing kids into this reality?

[00:34:24] So hearing your positive words that come from your climate scientist friend makes me feel better. I appreciate that. And also in the story, like in the story, Rick, I mean, Carl is Rick's engine from the start. Right.

[00:34:38] If we lose Carl, what's going to give Lori and Rick inspiration to continue on? I think having a child gives you that. Or what's going to give viewers any reason to watch this show anymore? Yeah. And Andrew Lincoln to stay on. As we know.

[00:34:58] So Rick and Lori, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think when you have kids, I don't know, I don't have kids of my own, but I have little people in my life who I love dearly, my nieces.

[00:35:10] And so they give you a drive and a purpose to do better, to learn new skills for them. Right. But then we have the example of Carol who lost her child and still had like still the queen of the apocalypse. So I don't know.

[00:35:26] I think that's so interesting. I think that's such an interesting point. Yeah. I had forgotten how much of a theme of is it worth living in this world was in the first couple of seasons.

[00:35:42] And I remember, of course, the CDC thing with Andrea wanting to stay and being mad at Dale for kind of manipulating her out of there.

[00:35:54] But I forgot that Lori was asking these questions that Glenn and Maggie are kind of talking about it a little bit with religion and that Andrea's with Darrell. And he's asking her if she still wants to live. And she says, it's just like a hat.

[00:36:08] I don't know if it's just a habit at this point, which I think sort of explains why she's still not ready to forgive Dale because she doesn't even know for sure if she wants to live. And I felt like, cut him a little break.

[00:36:22] But I guess, yeah, if you're just not sure if you're in a living hell, but you just live out of habit, then hopefully I don't remember if she ever does.

[00:36:31] But I would hope at some point when she does finally decide or if she does finally decide that she wants to live, she might say, OK, Dale, I forgive you.

[00:36:40] But anyway, I thinking about like whether it's it's worth living in the world and how that's I'd say over time an ongoing concern in The Walking Dead.

[00:36:51] But it's interesting how over time, like hearing Rick talk about this deer and equating that with beauty and life and that there are things worth focusing on living for.

[00:37:02] And then you see over the course of The Walking Dead as they become more acclimated and as more time passes that they have cocktail parties and they have like feasts and they have romance, you know, later on.

[00:37:14] And I was actually glad I remember thinking for the first several years of the show that there wasn't much romance or some, but not a lot of focus on it.

[00:37:23] And but then when they started focusing on it more later on, like with Eugene and what's that girl's name? Stephanie. Yeah, Max. That it made more sense then because they had figured out how to live in the world. And now they're ready. Like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[00:37:40] They've for the most part satisfied the lower parts. And now you need to be fulfilled in the arts. You know, there's people playing music and stuff like that.

[00:37:48] So just thinking about what's ahead to me validates my stance that at least try to make it through the hard times because there's good times ahead. Although I don't know, people are always dying throughout the whole series, too. So a life is a terminal condition. Yeah, that's right.

[00:38:11] Yeah, it happens. Yeah. All the scenes kind of dovetail with each other. Like you said, Jason, it's all about having faith in humanity and and yeah, hope. And I liked what Maggie said to Glenn. I know it's not my business and feel free to believe in God.

[00:38:30] But the thing is, you've got to make it OK somehow, no matter what happens. I wasn't exactly sure. That seemed like I don't even know if she was responding to him or what she felt coming from him, or maybe I didn't quite understand it.

[00:38:45] But what I get from that is just like you got to you got to make it OK, no matter what happens. You know, that's kind of what Rick is saying. Like that would have been good advice for Lori from Rick, maybe.

[00:38:57] And then he turns around and helps her, too, which was really beautiful. I don't really understand that line either, but I guess it's like, don't let the world completely crush you or literally consume you. So yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:13] And you kind of have to make the best of it, I think. Yeah. You've got to find a way to live within the life that you have and the conditions and limitations of the way that you have. But I'm with you, Karen.

[00:39:26] I felt the first time I was when I was listening to her, I was like, what is she talking about? But yeah, he doesn't care. He's just like, OK, farmer's daughter.

[00:39:38] I want to talk a little bit about just the impact of the moment, because it's it's a big holy shit moment in The Walking Dead.

[00:39:47] And the way that they, like I said, subverted your expectations, thinking that we were going to see him getting bitten or at least see Otis, you know, just killed by zombies in an accident or whatever, and then have it be that.

[00:40:02] And I was looking through some of my previous notes and saw that in episode 437 of this podcast, we did top five standout moments in The Walking Dead. And one of mine was it wasn't Shane shooting Otis. It was Shane getting his hair cut after killing Otis.

[00:40:22] I just felt like that stood out to me even more because I guess because that was the birth of Dark Shane or the start of that. And I don't know why, but that scene really stood out.

[00:40:33] But also going through my notes, I see I've referred to a few other moments as Shane Otis moments, like when Negan could have saved Maggie in the subway tunnel, but let her fall to the zombies.

[00:40:47] You know, turns out no one thought that was a very big deal for some reason. But in the moment, it seemed like I did. Or, oh, the characters didn't. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't.

[00:40:57] On Fear of the Walking Dead, there was a nuclear sub when Strand pushed Morgan into a bunch of zombies and said, you didn't want any of us to die. You're going to get your wish. I don't understand what that was all about.

[00:41:09] It was confusing, but I think the idea was if Morgan died, it would save the others or something. So that felt like an Otis moment. Or when Daryl is carrying Judith after she was shot by Pamela in season 11. Yes.

[00:41:24] I thought that was kind of like when Rick was carrying Carl after he was shot by Otis. So that's not a Shane Otis moment, but it's Otis related.

[00:41:30] So anyway, I just feel like more than I had realized that we referred back to this moment because it was a big deal. I remember it being like a cultural zeitgeisty moment on Twitter and stuff, talking about shaming somebody. I remember… I don't even remember the content.

[00:41:48] Actually, this is a terrible anecdote. You probably want to cut this, but this is like the early days of Twitter. So like 2011. And there was a comedian in the UK called Sarah Millican who tweeted something about a board game or a Walking Dead situation.

[00:42:04] And I replied to it and she asked me if I'd shamed my partner. And I was like, I would shame him if he did that. And I remember being very pleased that A, I got a tweet from Sarah Millican and B, that shaming was becoming a verb.

[00:42:15] And yet it didn't stick around. You gotta bring it back. Yep. Yep. Yep. I think Lucy touched upon the visual cues of the shaved head. For one, it started the Bernthal head rub that you guys talked about last week. Yeah.

[00:42:33] He's already been doing it, but it feels more pronounced now. Yeah. And also it's like military look. So it's like a war footing kind of a thing, right? Yeah. So I said it's associated…

[00:42:44] Shaved heads are associated with military athletes symbolizing strength, vitality and vigor, a signal of dominance. And Lucy, you said like taking control of their own body image, him washing away that guilt of killing Otis. Yeah.

[00:43:00] And proving to themselves that they're in control, that they can control what they look like and cementing a new identity. So there is before Otis and after Otis. Yeah. Just the fact that it was a change to something else. And to hide something. Yeah.

[00:43:16] Well, he hides a lot because the bigger sin is that he keeps lying about killing Otis. Yeah, that's true. Oh God, his lies are not great. And then he ran up and I was like, oh, and he's like, you must go Shane, you must live.

[00:43:28] And I was like, OK, Otis, I'll go live now. And then he died. Oh no, it's so sad. And I'm like, that was kind of an epic lie there. He's feeling…

[00:43:37] He's like, I did what I could, you know, he told me to go on and he covered me. And so I did. And he's lying. But I think the sentiment is true. Like, I did what I thought I had to do. You know, I'm sorry. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:43:55] What else? Do you have any more points? Yeah, about Darryl and Andrea's scene. You already talked about it, Jason. But yeah, that line that she says about living if she wants to live or if it's just a habit. It sounds simple, but it's really profound.

[00:44:16] And my takeaway from it isn't so extreme, like we don't have to talk about life and death, suicide or not. But I appreciate Andrea's line because I always try to challenge myself and question if I'm living my life the way that I want to or that

[00:44:30] I'm proud of or that resonates with me. And so I try to constantly ask myself, like, what are my values? Have they changed? Do I still believe in X, Y and Z?

[00:44:44] Or am I just doing it because it's comfortable or if it's a tradition or if it's for instance, our external gratification? Yeah. Because I think a lot of our lives are on autopilot just by muscle memory and being pulled by the tide, like she says, out of habit.

[00:45:01] And patterns are really, really hard to break. Yeah. With her. Yeah. I mean, what you're saying resonates with me more in the context of the monotony and drudgery of our day to day existence. Laundry dishes. Yeah. But with her, it's zombie apocalypse.

[00:45:24] So it's not quite like, oh yeah, today I had to shove a bunch of bodies out of the way or whatever. I don't know. But it is. Yeah. What's easier?

[00:45:35] You know, what's am I really just living because I want to live or just because it's the most comfortable, easy thing to do? Like, yeah, just choosing what you actually want. Yeah. Maybe she's thinking she's afraid to die. Mm hmm. Yeah. And she doesn't know. Yeah.

[00:45:56] I thought the scene with Daryl and Andrea was, I'd completely forgotten about it. But it was quite an interesting two-hander for kind of having this episode about life and being on the edge of life and death and what that means and how that plays out.

[00:46:14] I thought the poem was hilariously terrible on the tree. Like, we're all gone to shit. I was like, oh, it's a good thing this guy didn't try and commit to life as a poet.

[00:46:24] But I thought Andrea, I think I would have wanted to put that guy out of his misery. Yeah, I admired her for that. Yeah, I liked an answer for an arrow. I thought that was cool. Yeah.

[00:46:37] I did laugh when Daryl said it was when she was throwing up and he's like, that's revenge for laughing about my itchy ass.

[00:46:44] And you get more of a sense of Daryl as a person here and why he's so invested in Sophia because of the neglect he suffered with as a child. And that kind of very simple line about Sophia's at least got people looking for her, which he didn't have.

[00:46:58] And I think there's a lot of kind of. Psychology and pop psychology at the moment about sort of repaying parenting yourself and doing what you were not shown as a child or what you didn't understand as ways to parent as a child.

[00:47:14] And I think with Daryl, a lot of his journey is about that.

[00:47:18] The reparenting of both himself and the relationships he goes on to have as a mentor to younger people and how he then is able to step up to the plate for Judith and RJ when the ones who leave leave. That's their new name.

[00:47:33] Yeah, they're never not going to be the ones who leave.

[00:47:35] In particular, when Judith runs away in season 11 and he finds her in the church and tells her about the time that he used to or he used to always go back to the river when his dad would be drinking and get in that that his dad was a total fucking asshole.

[00:47:51] And he doesn't want to be that kind of a parent. And that totally echoes what's happening right now with Sophia just feeling like I don't want other kids to have to go through what I went through. And that's such a health.

[00:48:03] Well, it's a healthy thing to come from a very unhealthy situation. And I think it's really admirable. It's something I really like about Daryl is and I find it really funny when people are like, but Negan's good with kids.

[00:48:15] I'm like, yeah, but Daryl is genuinely really good with kids because he knows what it's like to be a shittily treated kid, which is something that a lot of people don't. Negan was about to fucking kill Carl with a bat until Shiva jumped in and saved him.

[00:48:30] Yeah, you know who's good with kids? Shiva. But I do the same thing. I mean, I try like I didn't have a father figure growing up.

[00:48:41] I had well, I had some bad stepfathers and so I I tried not to be like that at all with my own kids, you know? And so this like I'm having such a different relationship with Daryl now than I did going through the first time.

[00:49:00] That's way more admiration. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that because your first son hadn't been born when you were podcasting? He was just born. He was like at this point less than a year old or about a year old.

[00:49:15] Kirkman's relationship to the comic changed when he had a kid as well. Like I remember him saying in interviews like there's stuff in the first 50 or so issues that he's like, now that I'm a dad, I couldn't write that. I couldn't put people through that.

[00:49:29] And I'm like, oh, that's really nice. Much as I hate the kind of when people are like as a parent, I'm like, no, we can we can all still have thoughts and feelings about things.

[00:49:39] But I do think there must be a shift in your relationship with your art and your outlook on things when your world changes so dramatically. But I want to put it out there that even though Lucy doesn't like when people say as a parent, I like it.

[00:49:56] As a parent, I like it. As a parent, I really like it. We all have our perspectives. I mean, when I think about that, I'm like, OK, what if I didn't like it when someone said as a woman?

[00:50:06] Why do you get to have a special perspective just because you're a woman and I'm not? Well, we all have our perspectives. It's not so much as a parent. It's what usually follows it. It's usually something like as a parent.

[00:50:17] And I find watching that child massacre really difficult. And I'm like, oh, I fucking loved it. I had no problem with the assumption that follows from. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:27] I think that's it. I think you can definitely position yourself and say as a parent, I feel X, Y and Z. And I'm like, that's totally cool. But it's when the intimation after it is you are not a parent. You wouldn't understand. I mean, sometimes we do.

[00:50:41] Sometimes we don't. Sometimes. Yeah. But my therapist years ago told me, you know, your partner should be more important to you than your child. And I'm like, you don't have kids right now. And I'm like, you don't understand. I mean, sometimes I changed, you know, but anyway.

[00:51:05] But you mentioned the poison oak thing, how he said this is revenge for laughing at me with a poison oak.

[00:51:12] But I and I thought it was great that when she did laugh at him for that, because he said he had to wipe his ass with poison oak when he got lost. He laughed right along with her. Oh, he did. Yeah. Yeah. And that was cute.

[00:51:24] And it's just makes me like him even more because somebody could be offended at that. But he just laughed. And I felt like Norman Reed is laughing. I don't know. I like another line.

[00:51:33] Did you? That Darryl says that pretty much sums up Darryl to a T is when she when Andrew is retching and he's like, go ahead. If you got a puke, you know, or he says, yeah. And it's like, just do it. He's there for others.

[00:51:48] He doesn't judge them if they puke or whatever. And he lets people just be themselves. He doesn't mind the messiness or discomfort. So like that's that's Darryl. Yeah. Yeah. And it's I'm guessing Andrea and Amy had a very nice middle class upbringing.

[00:52:04] So I think Andrea and Darryl are two people who would not have communicated in high society before the pandemic. Yeah. And I did. I'd forgotten how much Merle is kind of a specter in these episodes in season two. Like his presence looms large.

[00:52:22] And so we hear that Merle was in juvie when Darryl was wiping his butt with poison ivy. And I loved, loved the scene with Patricia and T-Dog where she's like, oh, Merle Bixen, your friend. And he's like, I would call my friend.

[00:52:35] She's like, well, Merle Dixon's clap best in your safe girl life or something. And I'm like, that's great. Yeah. He goes, I don't want to. I try not to think about that. Yeah. And it was great too. Yeah. He's like he had the clap. I mean, venereal disease.

[00:52:49] Maggie is so into him. I know that in the next episode she's like, oh, you know, I don't care whatever. We'll just have sex. But she's she is high key interested in him in this episode. I have to say she is putting out signals.

[00:53:02] This is one area where my opinion did change because in my notes last time, 10 years ago or whatever, 12 years ago, I was like, I think she's not sure about him.

[00:53:12] But you know, once she sees what kind of a guy he is, then she'll really like him because I knew they got together in the comics. But here, I think every little thing he does, she thinks is cute. Yeah. I think she's into him.

[00:53:24] Like when he's fumbling around with his word. Oh yeah. Nice to see you again. Because we met once before. She's like smiling to herself. Like, oh, this guy is so cute. She loves it. She loves it. I will hear nothing against it. And then they get.

[00:53:39] And then when he says the clap, she thinks that's funny. And then she seeks him out on the porch and they immediately start talking about religion and deep subjects. And they're very comfortable. And then they their instinct is to try to help each other.

[00:53:52] She tries to help him feel better. And then he goes in and tries to help her feel better by just talking about the one she lost. And so they just are made for each other. It seems like. Kind of have a tangent on that.

[00:54:10] But if it goes too long, you can cut it out. Yeah. No, go. Like, I'm not cutting anything. Oh, I borrowed. I got into The Walking Dead because everybody at work was watching it. And so I borrowed the season one Blu-ray from my co-worker.

[00:54:25] And I was so, like, disgusted by guts that episode, the second episode where they hack everybody up, that I returned the Blu-ray to him. I'm like, thank you. I don't think this shows for me. I don't like horror at all.

[00:54:37] And then one day, for some reason, my YouTube algorithm gave me 60 reasons we ship Glenn and Maggie. And so I'm like, hey, that's the guy from The Walking Dead. I recognize him, but I haven't gotten to her yet because I didn't watch season two.

[00:54:51] And so I watched it and I think I just went down this like I yeah, I I it piqued my interest. So then I started season two for some reason. I didn't go back to season one. And then, you know, it ends with all these cliffhangers.

[00:55:07] But that's what brought me to this show. So Glenn and Maggie hold like a really significant part of my TWD journey. They're such a good couple. That's cool. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, he gets more than just being the sidekick. That. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of cool.

[00:55:26] He wanted even more and deserved even more. And I wish he'd had even more. But he did get more than just that. Yeah. They're a functional couple as well in The Walking Dead, which is unusual.

[00:55:37] Up till now we've just kind of seen quite, I don't know, unrequited love with Dale and Andrea. Maybe a bit with Shane and Laurie. Rick and Laurie's relationships clearly quite strained. And there's something about Glenn and Maggie. We get to see it from beginning to end.

[00:55:52] And it's just lovely. Is this the first time that Glenn's kind of like not goofy and funny for once? He is pretty serious in this episode, like straight faced. Yeah. Yeah. He's had some moments like when he's strategizing. Yeah. No.

[00:56:08] When he's being tactical in season one, like we're going to go down to the sewer and do this and that. Oh, wait, this kid's got something going for him. But then he's goofy with women.

[00:56:16] But yeah, here, like even when he said, why do you always sneak up on me? I thought that showed a little bit of guts. You know, he's not just gonna kowtow or whatever. Yeah. Even if he's just kind of teasing a little bit. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:56:33] So let me see if I have any more. I have another point. Oh, go for it. Not another point, but to go back to the Daryl and Andrea scene. I think we're still sympathizing with Walkers at this point, right? Because in season one we have Bicycle Girl.

[00:56:53] We have in guts Wayne Dunlop who Rick reads the eulogy for. I always forget his name. I think my brain just blocks it. I'm like, oh yeah, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then Andrea's sympathizing with the Walker here who hung himself.

[00:57:10] That's why she wants Daryl to put him out of his misery. But like we know after watching now, we know that Walkers pretty much become interchangeable and like endless fodder towards the end of this season series rather kind of like a zombie video game.

[00:57:28] And I love what Daryl says. Another great Daryl quote is we all got to eat. That's one thing that us and the Walkers have in common. So the show is still trying to draw a parallel between humans and Walkers at this point. Yeah.

[00:57:41] I think that might've been a Darabont thing. Yeah. And, and that might've been a disagreement between Darabont and Kirkman. And once Darabont was gone, that's when it really shifted, which is unfortunate because I prefer this exploration of the humanity of the Walkers and being

[00:58:01] compassionate towards them and stuff like that. Although, I mean, we do have, yeah. Cause the whole thing in season three with Milton is I think to put a nail in that coffin, you know, he's exploring the idea that there is something left and they decide, no, there's not.

[00:58:16] Right. I totally forgot about Milton. Yeah. Yeah. He's great. Yeah. I like that character. So Lucy, do you have any more points or should we go into notes? I will say that I thought Chandler Riggs was really freaking cute in this episode

[00:58:31] and my heart broke when he had his little seizure. Yeah. And when he woke up and spoke about the deer, oh, oh, he just looked so little in the bed and oh dear. Especially the, the seizure, mid seizure, they switched to top down view and that

[00:58:47] just made it seem even more horrifying and scary. A Laurie's face. They're just such a great family unit. Like you just really buy that they are this close, close knit little trio. And that moment where Herschel comes out and says he seems to have stabilized is,

[00:59:05] it's just so perfect. But then of course Rick feels he has to go and help Herschel tell Patricia, which is the difference between I think Rick and Shane is that moral goodness that is, that is both a help and a hindrance to Rick at times.

[00:59:20] Like it's neither, you know, sometimes you need to be a bit Shane, sometimes you need to be a bit Rick. Yeah. And Rick turns into, he does things darker than Shane ever did at times. I think Rick is much, much worse at moderating it sometimes than Shane was.

[00:59:36] But I can't remember. So Sarah Wayne Cowleys and Chandler Riggs when they were ever at Walker's Soccer together, you could feel that they had this great relationship in real life and they were always really close.

[00:59:50] And I think I may, either I'm making this up in my head, but I don't think so. I think I saw when Sarah Wayne Cowleys first met Kaylee Fleming on, it was on a Walker's Soccer cruise. So I saw Laurie meet Judith. They cast Judith so well. Yeah.

[01:00:08] Like looking at, looking at Laurie, I'm like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think the other thing that struck me from that whole scene was I'd forgotten how much, this sounds so dumb. I'd forgotten how much Otis meant to the Green family.

[01:00:24] I was like, well, he's just a random worker, but actually Maggie's like, he's part of the furniture. He's been here. He's been running the farm since before my mom died. And I felt like I got more of a sense of his importance and their loss this time

[01:00:35] around, especially poor Patricia, who they don't tell until the operation is done, which I completely understand. And it's the right call, but it's horrible to think about. She won't have to suffer for long. Well, that is true. That's really cruel to say.

[01:00:52] Uh, Otis, like he, um, he just seems like such a great guy more than I remembered. Interesting guy and a guy that would have been cool to follow a good character to follow, but they killed them off.

[01:01:05] And that was a Testament in my view to the walking dead in the first, you know, six or seven seasons where they would just kill off these characters that had such great potential to go forward. And that made you feel afraid for everyone else. Yeah.

[01:01:19] I was also just laughing to myself because I realized you don't see Jimmy and Beth at all this episode. And I'm like, Oh, I wonder where they are. They're upstairs unsupervised. Taking advantage of everyone being distracted. Taking advantage of this quiet time. Do you add another point, Karen?

[01:01:39] Um, well, I think what you were saying with Otis and how he meant so much to the green family. Um, I didn't do that much research or I try not to go back and see other people's views on this episode.

[01:01:51] But, um, I did see this one like five minute YouTube clip of inside the episode from the official walking dead. And Sarah Wayne Cowleys was saying, you know, of course she wanted, uh, Shane to

[01:02:04] stay because Shane is one third of the people she knew prior to the apocalypse. And as we know here that, um, I think you guys also mentioned it last week, like they knew each other in high school.

[01:02:15] So when you have so much history together, it's so hard not to cling to something familiar. And, um, especially when things are so uncertain in a literal wasteland. So, um, I sympathize more with, I sympathize a lot with Laurie more than most

[01:02:31] people, because I think it's very human for us to keep going back to what's familiar, even though it's problematic. Yeah. I know I sympathize with that too. Yeah. I think it was horrible what he did.

[01:02:42] Um, I think it's the zombie apocalypse and he, if he, if that was the only time he ever did anything and he was drunk, it's still fucking despicable. But I could see the other things outweighing that, that all everything you're talking about right now.

[01:02:54] And then if he ever did anything like that again, fuck you. Maybe. I don't know. That's just what my first thought about it. It reminded me a bit of some of the conversations we've had about bloody

[01:03:03] Negan where we're like, well, what could Negan ever do to make it up to Maggie? What he did. And the one thing we came back to was save Herschel or do something meaningful for Herschel or, and in the end I don't think that was enough.

[01:03:15] And I also say you're sorry. Yeah. Also say sorry. Like that's not hard. Um, but it made me think about like what is, who gets to decide what's enough to make up for something. And I dunno, it put me in an interesting headspace thinking about that. Yeah.

[01:03:31] Good question. Um, and I think the last thing was like, I read way too much into that 22 necklace that John Bernthal was wearing at the beginning. Because like, I didn't know if it was supposed to symbolize catch 22, the paradoxical situation with no apparent way out.

[01:03:48] It's like a damned if you do damned if you don't. Cause that, that, um, summarizes season two, you know, like all these situations that have no easy answers. Um, but apparently it was just John Bernthal's high school football number. That's it.

[01:04:05] So Jason, are you liking season two a little more now? I know you said it in the beginning kind of, but like now that we're talking more, I feel like there's a lot more grist to season two because of all the moral like

[01:04:19] dilemmas they're in and no easy answers. But, um, it does feel so proper. It could be. Yeah. I mean, I think they're making a lot of hay out of a really stupid thing that Rick did.

[01:04:31] And so to me that is, um, I guess, I mean, like I said, it brings him down to peg, which is what the season needs to make it make sense for Shane to feel like he should be the one to supplant Rick.

[01:04:47] But I feel like it's a little bit weak to have it be for such a, in my opinion, dumb thing that Rick did do like would, would, what the fuck Rick? So I don't know. Um, I, I mean this episode I thought was fantastic.

[01:05:02] And so, yeah, I would say I am liking it more so far. That's kind of the mark of The Walking Dead though. There's like always a few good episodes in the season and then a few not so hot. Yeah. A few stinkers. Yeah.

[01:05:19] Um, it's the first episode written by Scott Gimple. This one. Oh yeah. Yeah. I hadn't remembered. And I, I think he deserves so much credit for the success of the series. Last week's episode was written by Glenn Mazzara.

[01:05:36] Um, he, we'd wondered if that was his first, but he wrote one in season one, the wildfires episode five. So of the first half of this season, we have episode one written by Frank Darabont with Robert Hergman, episode two last week by Glenn Mazzara.

[01:05:54] This one by Scott Gimple and then number six by Angela Kang. So those are all The Walking Dead show runners in this first half wrote episodes, you know, I thought that was interesting. That's really cool. Yeah. I've loved how the episode opened with the monologue.

[01:06:13] I'd forgotten about that entirely. Rick telling this kind of almost comforting story from his high school years and Laurie just sort of listening, not really listening, but also listening. Um, and him just, it was kind of comforting him.

[01:06:26] And I sort of thought to myself like, what does it tell us about Shane? Like what, what is it that he's got guts? He's got chutzpah. He can run three miles quickly. It's, yeah, I just thought it was really interesting.

[01:06:40] It's about the love they have for each other and the kind of admiration as well. It's just, it's a nice thing to ponder. It's the story of when he stole the principal's car and parked it in a chicken

[01:06:51] coop with the windows rolled down and then made a joke to the principal about it. So it's sort of like a bad boy story, but it's fun. And you know, maybe if the principal was a dick, it was okay, but maybe

[01:07:04] it was kind of a dick thing to do. So it's already putting this thing with Shane, like, well, is that cool, Shane? Or I don't know. I agree. It's kind of like, yeah. Also, oh my God, that must have taken ages to clean.

[01:07:18] Yeah, probably like a lot of chicken poop in the car. Oh, got those poor chickens. Poor principal. It just makes me think of Norman Reedus because didn't he take chickens and put it in people's trailers as a prank?

[01:07:31] Yeah, he put feathers in Andrew Lincoln's, or glitter in his air conditioning ones. But I think he also took chickens and put them in somebody's trailer, if I'm remembering correctly, but yeah. In their coop. Yeah, in their coop.

[01:07:45] I wonder if he was already doing stuff like that this early before Darryl became such a superstar, or if he became emboldened to do his pranks after he got so much praise. Or he became a superstar because of his prank. They're dope. Let's see.

[01:08:03] I said Carol was seeming meek, but her crying, I totally do not blame her. I'd be going out of my mind if my kid was gone. But then Darryl and Andrea decided to go out and look for Sophia.

[01:08:17] And I'm like present day, Carol would have been out looking for Sophia by herself. I liked that Darryl wasn't annoyed at Carol. He just went and did something. Like it was like, oh shut up you moody woman. He's just like, okay, I'm going to go. The same cool.

[01:08:34] I'm going to go do something about it. Yeah. You mentioned Merle was still the ghost of Merle and Glenn thinks he's dead. He says, he's no longer with us. That was interesting. But I think at this point they already were hoping that they could get Rooker back.

[01:08:52] Well, he might be dead of venereal disease cause they've got his antibiotics. We didn't talk about Dale and Andrea, but I guess that's just an extension of last week. Yeah. I don't have any points about it. I thought his apology was dignified.

[01:09:10] I thought Andrea could have been maybe a bit nicer to him in response, but I thought we saw some growth. We saw some growth from Dale. Yeah. He said, I made a choice for you. It wasn't my choice to make.

[01:09:21] That said, can you please not kill yourself basically? And then do you forgive me? And she wouldn't commit to that, but she just needs some time. Yeah. All right. Let's move on to the IMDb stuff. All right. There's not much this week.

[01:09:38] The first is just a fact about Pruitt Taylor-Vince, who plays Otis. He was also in the X-Files episode Unruhe as Gerard Schnauz, who is a man who Mulder believes is capable of psychic photography. It's a very creepy episode of the X-Files season four. Definitely recommend checking it out.

[01:10:01] It did give me a funny flavor in my mouth when we were watching this episode for the first time and I'm like, oh, it's that creepy dude from the X-Files. I think he played some other psycho killer in something, but I'm not sure.

[01:10:13] Apparently, according to IMDb, he became an actor by accident because there was a computer error at his high school that enrolled him in a drama class. So thank you, that computer. That's awesome. We see Morley cigarettes again. Dale is sniffing a packet while he's keeping watch.

[01:10:30] Morley cigarettes are the fakie brand of cigarettes that appear in the X-Files and other shows. In the gym scene where Otis is being grabbed by a zombie without legs, that is a

[01:10:43] very good makeup job on a real amputee who was one of the kind of feature zombies of this episode. Right. Newman, Georgia is the location that the high school was in and that it was

[01:10:55] filmed. And the title, Save the Last One, refers to the last bullet that Shane saves for Otis. Although there's a couple in there, I feel like, right? Doesn't he shoot it more than once? He gets a fair kick in. Save the last few bullets.

[01:11:17] In terms of the apocalypse timeline, this all happens in the night of the 67th day and early hours of the 68th day. So we haven't moved on much from last week. It's still just under two weeks since Rick woke up from his coma.

[01:11:32] And what a time he is having. Is there another way to read Save the Last One? Because I always thought it could be a double meaning to save Carl as being the feature of it. Or that's the obvious reading of it. Yeah, I kind of thought it might.

[01:11:49] But is Carl the last one or is he just someone to save? Yeah. Save the cute one. What's your only on The Walking Dead this week, Jason? I didn't have a good one. Only on The Walking Dead would I be defending some douchebag who

[01:12:08] just shot an innocent guy and left him for dead. Only on The Walking Dead would we say, yay, venereal disease. That was mine, Lucy. Oh no! Sorry, Karen! Yeah. Is it beneficial for Merle to have gonorrhea, aka the clap? Also, I have another one that's kind of amazing.

[01:12:29] It's not as it's not sarcastic, but it's like it bothers me every single time I watch this episode is if you notice that scene between Glenn and Maggie. When Maggie is giving this meaningful advice to Glenn about you got to make it right

[01:12:44] somehow, there's a hair in her face. And I'm like, only on The Walking Dead did they have to turn around an episode in like eight days. Right. They're at this breakneck pace that they had to shoot it for relatively low budget and they couldn't do any reshoots.

[01:13:03] Did they not have another take to use for that? They can CGI a deer. Can't they CGI a hero? Actually, sorry, they can't CGI a deer. I've answered my own question. No, they cannot. All right, we're back. It's time for Listener Moans, Groans and Grunts.

[01:13:48] You wanna go first? All right. So our first piece of feedback comes from Nevada Randall. This episode always makes me sad. Poor Otis. Yep. Kirstie Keen says the point of no return for Shane. I sometimes forget just how well his descent into madness was done.

[01:14:11] Bernthal did a fantastic job. Yeah, he did. Yeah, I think. Yeah, just now it has me looking forward to tracking that over the course of the season. I remember feeling critical that I felt like emotional beats were repeated a lot though. So we'll see.

[01:14:30] We'll see. Megan Dively-Layman says my husband stopped watching The Walking Dead in the Negan era and rarely brings it up. But for some reason he mentions the Otis scene all the time. It's like it's burned into his brain.

[01:14:41] Actually, when I went back and looked at my notes, original notes for this episode 12 years ago, there was a message from her husband in there. No way! He said something like Shane should have just shot Otis in the head, you know, and

[01:14:59] eased his suffering. And my sort of no prize, Randy style rationale for that is that he wanted Otis to be thrashing around. And that would have been more of a distraction for the zombies. Yeah. All right.

[01:15:14] So next, Carly Jackson says I love that actor Pruitt Taylor Vince who plays Otis and was so heartbroken when that happened. Lots of horror elements in that episode. It really brought home to me the danger of a crowd of walkers. Yeah. Oh, God.

[01:15:29] Yeah. Those bits where they're hitting the fences and walkers keep appearing. Yeah. And it should be said to like what adds even more credence to the idea that Shane did the right thing is he shot Otis and then, man, he beat the hell out of him.

[01:15:48] And then when he got away, all the zombies converged on Otis and none came after Shane. So it worked. And then when he got back, he got back just seconds before Herschel was about to start operating on Carl without the thing.

[01:16:03] So and then Herschel used the respirator and immediately Carl was stabilized and presumably he got all the bullet fragments out and everything. So that's why like the whole we were thinking Shane is a hero for coming back with the

[01:16:16] medical supplies. But then like that one instance complicates everything else. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea Hatfield Olmsted says, hey, you guys, it's been a minute, but since it's my birthday, I'm going to comment on this episode.

[01:16:30] Shane was hands down one of my favorite characters and a very unpopular opinion as he would write from the beginning. But his special appearance was pretty awesome to see. Great episode. Hope all is well. Happy New Year's, you guys. And a happy new year to you too, Andrea.

[01:16:44] Happy birthday to you. Oh, and happy birthday. Oh, happy birthday, Andrea. Glad you wrote in. Kelly Burgess says, my daughter's watching with me. And when we finished this episode, she said she hates Shane even more.

[01:16:56] It's been a while since I've rewatched and the Otis scene was even worse than I remembered. I wouldn't say this start Shane's change to the dark side. I'd say it brought out his true colors. He's definitely not someone I trust or ever want to be left alone with.

[01:17:09] So it sounds like Kelly does not share the opinion that Shane did the right thing here. Yeah. Tiffane Tobolt says in a fight or flight situation, I don't think your reptilian brain, which is suddenly in charge, does not consult with your rational brain.

[01:17:25] Shane shooting Otis was certainly morally wrong, but in survival mode aren't all means necessary to justify the said survival. I agree that that is the underlying question behind why we enjoy this storyline. Yeah. I really need to catch up on the rewatch. Love that episode too. Oh, Tiffane.

[01:17:44] Josie Byrne Eftel says, Shane is crazy, but I think his decision here isn't as crazy as everyone thinks it is. He gave Otis the opportunity to move on without him first and tried to make it so they both escaped as well.

[01:17:55] It got to the point where they knew they couldn't both get out because no plan was made for escape. Seriously, how infuriating. But at the end of the day, he knew nothing mattered more than getting those meds for

[01:18:05] Carl. He did what it took to make it happen, though it was awful and inhumane. It saved Carl. I don't think he felt good about it either. So while this was part of his descent into madness, I don't think he was absolutely terrible for shooting Otis. Shrug emoji.

[01:18:19] Yeah, it was a good point that their plan wasn't great. I mean, they were kind of under time constraint, but maybe they shouldn't have used every single flare to get in and they should save some to get out. Save the last one.

[01:18:36] The title is actually just save the last one, you dickhead. Becky Fenner Anderson says, hey, T.W.D. fam, great episode. Poor Otis. That moment when he realizes he's doomed was a punch in the gut.

[01:18:52] I know this starts Shane's change to the dark side, but I don't think he thought he had any other choice. No way they both would have made it out. So in his mind, he was sacrificing one to save another.

[01:19:02] And I would argue he was it was either they all died. Carl, Shane and Otis or Shane and Carl survived. You could see all over his face the disappointment in himself for what he'd done. The look on his face in the mirror still gives me chills.

[01:19:17] The way the actor plays this is brilliant and forces us to ponder, is he really good or really bad? Glenn is precious. Carol annoyed me a bit, but I'm OK with it knowing what a badass she becomes.

[01:19:30] Daryl rocks. I hope you all have a safe and happy new year. Don't get bit. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, Becky. Just to follow up to that, Becky says the way the actor plays it. And I think at this point in the comics, Shane has already gone.

[01:19:43] Right. So it's great that I think they saw John Berenthal's potential and gave him this. Oh, yeah. So good. Yeah. I never thought about that way. I presumed that because I know Kirkman liked to switch things up in the show just to keep it fresh.

[01:20:00] And so it was always my presumption that he just wanted to try something different with the character. I think he also said that he killed Shane off early in the comic, in part because he always thought they were just going to cancel the comic.

[01:20:15] So he just wanted to get a bunch of stuff in before it was gone. Yeah. But but maybe you're right. Maybe it had something to do with Berenthal. Oh, I think it must have. I actually wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. All right. So Alma Contreras says badass Shane episode.

[01:20:29] LOL. This is the episode where Shane starts his spiral into villainy. I've always liked this episode because it was super intense. And as much as Shane shooting Otis is an evil choice, it was probably his only choice. And yes, I have always felt bad for Otis's demise.

[01:20:44] Shane was wounded and probably wouldn't have made it out alive and getting the medical supplies needed to save little Carl. Gosh, it's so hard thinking about what I would do. This is the kind of thing that has made the series so appealing

[01:20:56] because it always seems to put the audience in a difficult position where one questions their integrity and morals. So my question is this. Was Shane really wrong for shooting Otis? I look forward to hearing your all's thoughts. I think I might have died.

[01:21:12] I don't think I would have shot Otis and we'd both be dead and Carl would be dead. Yeah. I'm not a parent, so I probably would have just shot Carl. You know me. Val Leroy says. Oh, oh, Val Leroy got creative. Love this Val.

[01:21:38] Here's a follow up to the poem. Got bit, fever hit, world's gone to shit. Might as well quit. Darryl thinks I'm stupid. Andrea said shoot it, shoot it in the head. Now I'm twice as dead. Really? Hell yes. All right. We have one call.

[01:21:58] We have one call about this episode, then some messages about last week's episode that didn't come in on time. So because we're recording a weird schedule. So here's Gloria's call about this episode. Hey, Jason and Lucy, it's Gloria from Salem.

[01:22:14] This is for the dead season two, episode three. Save the last one. Once again, I could not watch any of Shane and Otis. No, thank you. No, I didn't understand Lori's feelings about giving up on Kyle and having no hope whatsoever. She seemed pretty resigned to it.

[01:22:35] And if it came to that, I don't have that in me personally. I believe there's always hope. But of course, I've never been in an apocalypse. Yeah. Absolutely love Maggie and Glenn. Fresh flirtations. So adorable. Darryl continuing to look for Sophia is pretty courageous of him.

[01:22:55] He just doesn't stop. And he does really have chemistry with everyone, doesn't he? He and Andrea laughing about his itchy ass. Pretty funny. And I have to say it, even though I'm totally gay, when Shane was in the bathroom getting ready to shower, Christ, that man is built.

[01:23:18] I may not want anything to do with this manly bits down there, but I can still appreciate human body. The upper half anyway. Then he had to ruin it by making himself look like a soldier ready for war. Oh, well, stay living. OK, that's it.

[01:23:38] Have a great weekend, guys, and hope you had a great new year. I don't know when this is going to. Be out there, but that's it. See you in the new year and episode four. I will be out Tuesday. That'll be 30, 31.

[01:23:56] Yeah, it'll be after the new year, actually. Oh, coming to you from the future. Um, she made me think about it's weird to hear Darrell actually have a tone to his voice and not just be talking like this. Yeah. My ass was itchy. Like, yeah, I wonder how

[01:24:18] Rita's, you know, what was the process of the development of that? What would he be in? Cool. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it's being cool. All right. So now we have some messages about last week's episode, Bloodletting. This was from Laura.

[01:24:37] She says this is probably late, but I started typing feedback and got distracted with holiday stuff. I hope you had a great holiday. I'm sure you did. She says, thank goodness for the Greens, especially Maggie. Unlike Jason Wink, season two is one of the favorites

[01:24:51] for the character and relationship building, but also for the introduction of the Green family. Quite honestly, I almost dropped off The Walking Dead after the season two opener. Though I did love the story and characters like Rick, Daryl and Glenn.

[01:25:04] The female characters were so insipid, weak and bitchy that I nearly dropped the show. Then Miss Maggie Green came writing in on her steed, wielding her baseball bat like the badass cowgirl she was, and I think I audibly cheered. Right there. The introduction of that character saved me.

[01:25:19] I'd later come to love all the Greens, especially Herschel, who I think could be one of my top faves. That's interesting. Same. Yeah, really? Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought about that, but that's I like it. Confessional time. I have a very unpopular opinion.

[01:25:35] I honestly could not stand Carol for a very long time. I know she was a victim. But when in the last episode she didn't fight Laurie to run after Sophia and later admits that she was aware of Ed's predatory nature towards their daughter

[01:25:47] but never left him, my ire for her kind of embedded itself in me. And even though her character Arch is complex and nuanced, I never could get past that or her autocratic decision to kill Karen and David or the way she puppeteered Rick into attacking porch dick.

[01:26:06] Sorry, that is forever his name and stoking his paranoia in season five. Carol's gone through a lot and made for great storytelling and Melissa McBride plays her with precision. I just never really warmed to her until she met King Ezekiel. That's way late into it.

[01:26:23] And Henry, her breakdown after Henry dies was the first time my heart truly broke for her. I'll have to see if during the rewatch, if I have the same feelings. So far, that irritation is still there. I remember Karen and I were pretty annoyed with her.

[01:26:38] Karen even more like Karen hated her. Karen was wanting just wanted her to die. I remember that back when we were podcasting on these seasons. That's great, Laura. Thanks. And we'll we'll we'll read.

[01:26:55] Yeah, if you guys don't get your messages in on time, don't worry, just send them and we'll read them next time. Here's one call from Archmaester Rennie, who I'm excited to hear from. Hello, Jason and Lucy, Archmaester Rennie here. Well, I have caught up to the rewatch.

[01:27:13] I went down a rabbit hole of watching every movie that was set in the alien universe, and there are more of them than you would think. So I was behind when you started the research, the rewatch. But now I'm with you.

[01:27:29] And it's a great fun to go back. To the beginnings of this show. So what I want to comment on in this episode is the introduction of Maggie. I had completely forgotten that she was portrayed as heroic and equal to any task from the very beginning.

[01:27:51] Yeah. First encounter her. She's keeping watch, and then Herschel says, you know, Maggie, get the IV. And she just, you know, is right there and up to doing whatever she needs to do. And then we get the big hero moment where she comes galloping up on the horse

[01:28:10] and wallops the walker that's menacing Andrea. And it's just such a relief to see a woman who is a badass after season one and its portrayal of women. So I was thrilled by that aspect of this episode.

[01:28:33] And I hope to be with you for the rest of the rewatch. Yeah, I already an email. Rennie, I love you. We should send you an email. Ask her if she wants to come on for one. That would be amazing. All right. That is our show episode 558.

[01:28:55] Thanks so much for listening, everyone. Thanks, Karen. I'm glad you wanted to come on for this episode. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It was really fun. It was such a pleasure. Yeah. It's always fun with you guys. Yay!

[01:29:09] Oh, next week is The Walking Dead season two, episode four. Cherokee Rose, which I remember not liking. So hopefully I will like it. And with those high expectations, if you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it,

[01:29:26] you can find all our content information at Podcastica.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts like the aforementioned Still Slaying, the Buffyverse podcast with Penny and Kara. I have not listened to a single episode of that, which was why I was genuinely

[01:29:42] curious about what they were doing on there, because I just haven't seen Buffy. But Karen and Penny, I mean, Kara and Penny are so good. That, man, I need to get on it and start watching just so I can listen to them. On there.

[01:29:56] This episode is also made possible by Patreon supporters like Michelle Curley, who pledged their support at Patreon.com slash Jason Kabassi. Thank you to Michelle and to everyone else who's pledging on there. I appreciate it so much. These rewatch episodes come out every Tuesday for most people.

[01:30:14] But whenever we record early and I manage to get it edited early, I have been publishing them early on the Patreon feed. And I think I'll just keep on doing that whenever I get a chance. So that's another perk.

[01:30:24] Also, we recently recorded our Patreon exclusive podcast, The Zed Head Show. And this month, it was me, Wendy and Sam, who you may have heard call in. But she's this was her first time podcasting. We talked about our favorite shows, movies and games from this year, 2023.

[01:30:40] There was a ton of great stuff this year. And it was cool that none of us had any repeats. So that was an awesome. I loved it. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it was fun to do.

[01:30:48] One of the shows we cover on this podcast was on my top five list. I'll let you guys guess which one that was. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Archmage Mr. Ready.