559: "Cherokee Rose" (TWD S2E4 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Huh. Podcastica! Blessed be God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Praise be to Him for the gift of our brother, Otis. For his span of years, for his abundance of character. Otis, who gave his life to save a child.

[00:00:29] Now more than ever, our most precious asset. We thank you God for the peace he enjoys in your embrace. He died as he lived. In grace. Shane? Will you speak for Otis? The Cast of Us. A Podcast for the whole world. Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:20] I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us episode 559, I believe. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 2 episode 4 Cherokee Rose. Cherokee Rose. And we've prepared a song about the Cherokee Rose. Go ahead, Lucy. Let me just tune up my acoustic guitar.

[00:01:39] Oh wait, no, I don't have it. So what do you think? How do you like it? I like this episode a lot. There were bits of it that I really liked a lot more than the first time I watched it.

[00:01:54] And it was a really lovely one to come back to because those of you that were listening last week, if I sounded a little off, it's because I was getting COVID and I've just come out of a week of having COVID.

[00:02:03] So getting to watch some classic Walking Dead was actually quite comforting as I was sitting on the sofa feeling sorry for myself. So yeah, you're like, hey, at least my zombie daughter is not in a barn. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, it could be worse.

[00:02:19] I could be wearing those dungarees that Shane's wearing. How about you? I liked it. I yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. I was thinking, why am I liking it more? Because I remember being bored with the endless search for Sophia and also the lack of zombies

[00:02:38] when we first watched it because I think I was evaluating at least in part as an ongoing horror movie. And now I think I like it more just because I care about the characters a lot more now.

[00:02:50] I've come to know them and it's interesting to see the seeds of what will happen and the early versions of these characters knowing how they've evolved and everything. So I think really just having seen the whole series is having me appreciate this season more. I think so.

[00:03:06] They lay a lot of the groundwork in season two that pays off in seasons to come. And I think that's giving me in the same way a deeper appreciation of it looking at it now.

[00:03:16] And if I'm not like sitting there expecting or hoping for some scary zombie stuff, but rather just like seeing characters that I like and enjoying seeing them together, you know, that's the difference. And enjoying stuff like having Shane around because he's a dick but he's great to watch

[00:03:36] and there's so much to him and to his performance that I think they really…it was a loss when Jon Bernthal left the show I think because he was such a good actor and added so much to it.

[00:03:50] Yeah, in this season in particular his trajectory is really complex. And I can…I feel like he's so real. I can understand him because, I don't know, I feel like we all have these things about ourselves that we know.

[00:04:07] You know sometimes I get upset about whatever and I just go too far and then I have a chance to think about it and realize, oh my god I did it again. You know he's like that but with some really bad impulses.

[00:04:19] Yeah, and it's funny knowing the spanner that's about to get thrown in the works from the end of this episode of like Laurie's pregnant. Like that's a game changer. Like we were watching…maybe it was the…we were talking about when she throws up the

[00:04:37] pills in the next episode and Peter's like…she's essentially consigning herself to death. And I'm like yeah and I think she kind of knows it. Like I think like…yeah there's a lot to talk about with Laurie and the pregnancy but

[00:04:50] you know, yeah it's a bigger decision than just having an unwanted pregnancy and the apocalypse. It's about like can you survive it knowing that the only other child you've had was born by C-section. It's…yeah it's so layered. It's just…yeah.

[00:05:04] And knowing what happens, knowing both that we get Judith and what happens to Laurie this whole episode just becomes more, I don't know, rich for it knowing that that's what's lying ahead.

[00:05:15] For a second I was thinking did Maggie and Glenn risk that kind of pregnancy but no he had those condoms right there and… Famously not! He used it. I mean that…his little faux pas actually turned out to be a stroke of luck.

[00:05:29] Yeah I was gonna say we don't move on to the biz quick for another few seasons so we'll just leave that one there. Oh man. Alright so let's get into our points. Do you mind if I go first this week? Absolutely not, go for it.

[00:05:43] Okay, my first point is hope. This episode's a lot about hope with Carl stable the focus now shifts to searching for Sophia and by the way Maggie busts out her topographical map and it just shows that wow

[00:05:58] I thought of her as this kind of pleasant gentle farmer's daughter that evolved into this really capable leader but she was from day one just capable as hell with her bat you know I had totally forgotten about that. She's a woman who knows a map.

[00:06:13] So there's a whole bunch of expressions of hope and optimism in this episode about finding Sophia the title of the episode Cherokee Rose is about hope and all of this of course we

[00:06:24] know ends up being false hope but Walking Dead spends so much time on it in the episodes leading up to the infamous barn scene and I think that's one reason why that was so

[00:06:34] shocking and so iconic for the show because it was unexpected and I've heard more than one person say that scene is really what hooked them into the show you know that's when I

[00:06:46] like oh my god the show but as far as expressions of hope Dale and T-Dog are hopeful they're saying well T-Dog says hey man you think there's a snowball's chance we'll actually find the

[00:06:57] little girl and he Dale says for the first time in my life I'm betting on the snowball and he goes yeah me too so you're hearing all of that and it's like with any other show

[00:07:09] it would be leading up to finding this girl you know it's crazy thinking about how much they put into that now given what happened they go back to the highway to see if she

[00:07:19] showed up and there's the supplies with the sign that Daryl had mentioned Sophia's to hear we will come every day so that's showing that they still have hope that she's there the story of the Cherokee Rose Daryl says it's about American soldiers they were moving

[00:07:35] Indians off their land on the Trail of Tears and the Cherokee mothers were grieving and crying because they were losing their little ones along the way from exposure and disease and starvation and a lot of them just disappeared so the elders said a prayer asked for a sign

[00:07:49] to uplift the mother spirits and give them strength and hope and then this rose started to grow right where the mother's tears fell and then he says I'm not full enough to think there's any flowers blooming for my brother but I believe this one bloom for your little

[00:08:02] girl she's really gonna like it in here oh that whole interaction man yeah am I becoming a Daryl fan I don't know I think I might be it's lovely I thought it was so cheesy when

[00:08:15] I first watched this but now it's it's the start of this deep friendship that goes on to this day and culminates in a spin-off series yeah I culminate in Paris baby and and it's

[00:08:33] it's really nice it shows that he has this good heart and cares and it also is interesting it ties him maybe to indigenous people you know living off the land like there's a spirit

[00:08:46] connection there I feel like yeah but then I'm like honestly is it a hopeful story because the Cherokee children didn't come back to life and the mom's just got roses uh yeah I have like a

[00:08:59] whole point about the Cherokee okay yeah I'm holding my water but yeah I hear you let me I just had one more thing so then Carl at the end you know Rick's with him by his bedside and

[00:09:10] Carl says do you think we'll find Sophia and Rick goes I know we will well I don't know but I truly believe it and I mean they do they do find her but I don't know what he meant no I'm not sure

[00:09:23] so on any other show all this hope would lead to a positive outcome but the message is this is a darker show and uh that's the message we're going to get in a few episodes here

[00:09:32] and another aspect is darker too like right now things seem pretty idyllic with the greens you know they're just this helpful um graceful family and little do we know that they also have

[00:09:45] a dark secret you know it's not yeah so it's not right now I think the show feels maybe we were I was getting a bit impatient with how it felt a little boring because it's all nicey nice but um

[00:09:58] it's gonna take a turn yeah no I think so I like the I like thinking of the greens as graceful um I was admiring I know it sounds really silly but they're their whole aesthetic at the green farm

[00:10:12] it's like this out of time idyllic place and Herschel when he and Rick are out looking at the horizon in his like I don't know southern gentleman outfit with his like straw hat and his like white

[00:10:27] suit I was just like I love this it's like it's very pleasant yeah it's a very pleasant vision of an older way of life that you know Rick's group essentially fuck up massively

[00:10:42] of course well yes yes and the herd but also yeah that's true yeah I mean really yeah it isn't necessarily his fault except as we learn that if Rick shows up something's bad's going to happen

[00:10:57] whether it's his fault or not it's going to happen it just is yeah the man's a portent of doom he's beautiful but he's a portent man turn him away well I'm really glad you mentioned the

[00:11:11] Cherokee Rose because I know that we've had some back and forth with people about the fact that we've been talking about issues to do with racism on the show and how looking at it from the lens

[00:11:25] of it being 2023-24 has made us think differently or look at things differently but I actually think this scene puts Darryl in a really sympathetic light for knowing the story of the Cherokee Rose

[00:11:39] um I went off and looked it up because I was interested by it and I didn't know an awful lot about it so for those of you who don't know um the Trail of Tears refers to

[00:11:53] it's a route that was taken um through America through the states in the period 1830-1850 which was a period of ethnic cleansing and forced displacement of indigenous um Native American people approximately 60,000 people were displaced during this time and they came primarily from what

[00:12:15] were called the five civilized tribes so those were primarily Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Chickasaw and Choctaw um nations so they were removed from their homelands in the southeastern U.S. to west of the Mississippi and because of the Indian Removal Act which was passed in 1830

[00:12:34] this removal act authorized the Indian title to land claims to be completely extinguished in the southeast so it allowed settlers to remove indigenous people from their lands. Now Darryl talks about um the Cherokee children um passing away and their mothers crying for them and this

[00:12:54] obviously did happen so the largest death toll during the Trail of Tears comes post 1838 um the last forced removal um in 1838 was related to Georgia and the Gold Rush there

[00:13:08] um so it's a very strong tie to the Georgia area at this point the Cherokee were rounded up into larger groups of up to 700 people and so communicable diseases were rife there was exposure

[00:13:19] of violence and a lack of supplies because it had all been plundered for the Gold Rush so people were dying in droves and I think this is probably the point where the Cherokee Rose comes to be part

[00:13:30] of the mythology um it's obviously a really horrific part of history um and many countries across the world are culpable of things like that um but I think the Trail of Tears in particular

[00:13:43] is a particularly brutal one. I think it's really nice for the story to give Darryl that bit of exposition and not have him I don't know frame it in any kind of pro-America way he just tells the

[00:14:01] story as it is he just talks about what happened to the women and their children and as you say it kind of ties Darryl into this more I don't know free way of living this more way of living

[00:14:13] that's more in tune with the land. Yeah and it doesn't feel like he's making a big political point but no you can feel that he has sympathy. He has sympathy for them. He doesn't tell it as like

[00:14:24] this awesome thing that happened or anything he recognizes that it's a sad thing right but he's not using it necessarily to make a point about putting down what early Americans did although

[00:14:39] I don't like that I don't like what they do but um but I'm just saying that's not his point in telling it but but no it's not at all there's a sympathy and when I say he shares with them like

[00:14:48] he's also not only do they live off the land but also having gone through a lot of trauma I feel like he has a connection with them there too. And I just think it's unlike who told him that story

[00:14:56] that's really interesting that he knows that. Maybe it was his grandpa that was on D-Day wait I don't think he knew him. Yeah until he saw the flashback in Paris definitely wasn't Merle. Merle's version of the story would be very different I'm sure maybe his mom you never

[00:15:12] find out much about mom Dixon. Interestingly the rose itself I work because I'm also quite interested in in plants because as you know I had Covid and I had nothing better to do than

[00:15:22] ecology. The plants are actually an invasive species that come from China or Taiwan or further south like towards Laos and Cambodia and they came to America roughly in the 1780s. It's the

[00:15:37] flower of Georgia. So it's the state flower and they believe I think that the white petals are the tears and the center of the flower which is yellow gold symbolizes the gold that was taken

[00:15:49] from the indigenous people and the gold rush and caused that particular part of it. And that was something I didn't know about Georgia and that that was the state flower. And I just think

[00:16:00] something about that story that Daryl tells Carol is just right for that moment. It's not a story that like you say it doesn't necessarily have a happy happy ending because it doesn't because they've still lost their children but it's about yeah I mean growing from that pain.

[00:16:15] I don't know what the point for him was this Cherokee rose is a sign that she's still out there because right after he says that he's like she's going to really like it in here meaning

[00:16:24] I think in the RV and but if you really pay attention to the story that's not what it means it just means having strength and hope post trauma you know after this happened. And so

[00:16:39] I don't know if he's not really understanding his own story but he's got a point there like she will have strength after she finds out what really happened. It's the right story for that

[00:16:52] moment and it's clearly means a lot to Carol. Yeah I mean it's clear that he's offering some sympathy and encouragement you know optimism for her that's what he means to be doing. And it's really sweet. And I just think in like the evolution of Daryl and

[00:17:11] kind of a reminder to me as well like just because he says a few racist things doesn't mean that that's all he is or all he ever will be or he'll have all he'll ever think he's clearly capable of

[00:17:22] empathy and thinking differently about things and we see that time and time again in the show and how he responds to different people in different situations and I just thought it was nice to have

[00:17:31] that moment early on to really kind of and it's I think I remember being surprised by it the first time I watched the show because Daryl had been so gruff and feral up to that point and this is the

[00:17:41] first time he really does something that's just sweet and kind you know looking for Sophia's kind but he's doing it with you know Daryl aggression and Daryl annoyance at other people

[00:17:55] and things like that but this is just a very vulnerable moment for both of them and I don't know I liked it. I didn't like what I learned but I'm glad that I learned it. So yeah.

[00:18:05] That's in part why I was critical of it to start that it was the first time he did something quite so overtly sensitive. He'd already shown that he cared about finding Sophia and Rick has brought

[00:18:21] him in to be more of a part of the group and give gave him the duty responsibilities and stuff but this really was a new side of Daryl that we hadn't seen before and I thought I always feel

[00:18:38] like I like it when shows show flawed characters and that not everyone has to be redeemed in some storybook kind of a way because life is full of people who are many different shades of moral

[00:18:53] morals and things like that you know and attitudes and likeableness and I want to see all of that all of humanity not just the people that we can completely root for and and I do think that

[00:19:08] part of the reason why Daryl evolved the way he did is because Norman Reedus wanted to play a cool character you know yeah I think he said that in interviews I argued against Daryl being

[00:19:19] too racist and yeah and and I'm like okay well if I just need to accept that for what it is like this is not the story of an inherently and irredeemably racist guy like he came off at

[00:19:34] first it's a story of a guy who had potential to grow and then did grow and that's okay too like there are people like that and now that I've had a chance to spend years with Daryl and

[00:19:44] appreciate him more especially in more recent years than coming back to this I see him in a whole new light so I am still a little bit critical of that sort of ego of the actor who just wants the

[00:19:54] character to be cool kind of thing but I have to put that aside and appreciate it for what it is and I think with Daryl they they steered it in a way that didn't stretch the bounds of believability

[00:20:05] yeah I agree it didn't ask us to forgive the unforgivable whereas other characters who we won't go into talking about just yet we've got five more seasons without them and I don't think

[00:20:15] Daryl did anything unforgivable in my opinion no I don't see anything he did whereas when a cat an actor or fan response is driving a character from being a shit into being a lovable rogue when the story hasn't allowed for that that's a different kettle of fish

[00:20:35] yeah we'll get to that so yeah that was my my point about the the Cherokee Rose I like it one thing you mentioned you know looking at issues of racism from a 2023 lens and having

[00:20:50] some listeners push back against that I do see it somewhat that way but I also I don't even think we need the 2023 lens I think no the intent of the writers clearly was to talk about race in some of

[00:21:04] these early episodes just by what they're having the characters say having Daryl speak in stereotypes like that is about race and then having him sort of overcome that and um what T-Dogs even Herschel

[00:21:17] the Asian boy you know yeah I mean that's not something I don't see anything wrong with that but um having Herschel uh I mean T-Dog what he said last week you know at the roadside and

[00:21:32] this episode says I don't know why I said that that's not me and and we're thinking yeah but we don't blame you for having some of those feelings come out but uh I just think whatever

[00:21:43] your opinions are about the things that are being said they're there and so I I when listeners mention something to me I really try to think about it and think if they have a point in this

[00:21:58] case I just suspect that because in our culture right now there's a lot of criticism that some people see a lot of racism when it's not there or they're making mountains out of molehills or whatever that that's just like a knee-jerk response oh they're talking about racism they're

[00:22:11] doing that same thing that all these people do in society all the time I don't agree I think in this case with The Walking Dead where they are what they're having the characters say it's just

[00:22:20] another theme in the show and that's what we do we talk about the themes of the show so that's it also I like I I welcome that kind of discussion and pushback from listeners in a way because it

[00:22:33] gives us a chance to have these kind of conversations yeah that's a good point I'm not saying like you for saying that oh my god if you think we're being if you think we're

[00:22:40] being racist here's why we're not and here's why we're I'm just like yeah I think it's a valid point because it's probably not something that has come up as much before and it's cool to to

[00:22:50] chat a bit about it right and I hope like the fact that I don't agree with some of you guys on that that that doesn't mean you don't like me anymore and you don't want to listen to the podcast I mean

[00:22:59] we're not just constantly talking about that we have been bringing it up a lot more lately though because I feel like it's in these first two seasons but it wasn't I think it's becoming

[00:23:08] less and less it goes away I think by seasons three and four it really is just the living and the dead I don't think there's there's room for we'll see yeah we'll see but yeah yeah um

[00:23:21] I think we're gonna look at the rest of the series from a view of um critical race theory no I'm just yeah I think so let's do it let's go on NPR let's eat bitch

[00:23:34] okay uh my turn yeah go for it maybe I should do another Daryl point since we were just talking about Daryl this is kind of about Daryl his status as being in the group kind of being a loner too

[00:23:51] and it's you know he's going off to look for Sophia and Rick says you okay on your own he goes I'm better on my own which that so resonates with him throughout his history I mean the very

[00:24:03] last shot we see on The Walking Dead is him going off on his motorcycle but he is a part of the commonwealth he's just taken on this duty to go off and explore and find information about other

[00:24:15] people and I think that fits with his character where he wants to belong but he needs his alone time basically you know and uh and uh at the start here I think it was more about him um

[00:24:30] either not being sure he belongs or um the others not being sure he belongs like Rick said to the Vatos you know he's he's one of ours uh more or less just sort of a little bit of a dig

[00:24:45] there and here um there's a feeling that Rick doesn't consider him totally a part of the group again he says hey we got a base we can get this search properly organized now Daryl says you got

[00:25:00] a point are we just chatting and he goes my point is it lets you off the hook you don't owe us anything and Daryl says my other plans fell through and I'm not exactly sure what Rick is

[00:25:09] telling Daryl it sounds like you don't need to help us we have it covered and I think that hurts Daryl and I think Daryl's like dude I'm with you guys but it sounds like you're saying you don't

[00:25:18] need me and maybe don't want me but I think Rick is actually saying I feel like you don't really want to be with us and I'm letting you go and it feels like a couple who doesn't have good

[00:25:25] communication skills and they just need to sit down and talk it through you know what I'm hearing is but it did feel like Rick was blowing him off a little bit but I feel like Rick just thought

[00:25:42] maybe he didn't want to be involved but which is kind of dumb because he's clearly been very invested in searching for Sophia I mean he's like hundred percent forgotten about his brother

[00:25:51] from like a week ago so like I think he's fine even though I think the Cherokee Rose was actually blooming for Merle because he's coming back I mean Merle was such a stand-up guy yeah

[00:26:01] so that's all I have to say about him amazing is that a full-on point do you want me to move on to my next yeah sure yeah I just really belittle jumble is that point it's like your

[00:26:09] point yeah okay um I will talk about oh I think maybe our first iconic no not our first iconic zombie because we have a bicycle girl but while zombie hello I'd forgotten how disgusting this

[00:26:24] dude was um very just horrible I don't really know what to add like disgusting bloated zombie um yeah one of my one of my favorite memories when I was watching this is um when this show

[00:26:41] came out around about 2011 um this season I was still tutoring English to kids um as a private tutor and there was this one kid I really he was great actually I hope he's doing really well now

[00:26:52] but we were talking about um poem that had a well in it and he didn't know what a well was and I was like oh well and I was trying really hard to describe and he went oh like in the walking

[00:27:01] dead with that amazing zombie and I was like yeah so we talked about the walking dead for 10 minutes I was like yeah it was a really gross zombie um so that was a nice memory when watching this but

[00:27:11] it's just so gross and it's just such a classic like zombie conundrum you can't shoot it because it'll infect the water I don't know if I'd want to be drinking that water anyway to be honest

[00:27:22] I know well that's the thing Peter and I were sitting there we're like would you drink that and I'm like no would you it's like no so I anyway yeah that's why it's a bit dumb and they come off

[00:27:31] kind of um incompetent tying him to this pole that just falls over that's why you look at looks horrified and I'm like yeah don't blame me sweetheart it's pretty gross like everything

[00:27:44] about this is grim it's another case of needing to come up with believable danger but then because zombies are slow and stupid that they have to almost make the people seem stupid too you know

[00:27:58] and they're lowering this poor guy down and then the thing breaks and then you got like four people and they they're struggling to pull him up which was a little bit hard to believe so it's a bit like

[00:28:09] Keystone cops or something I don't know yeah and he still manages to loop the rope around a zombie I'm like sure I would probably just be like literally shitting my pants and crying so like

[00:28:20] well done Glenn for managing that yeah I mean that was a testament to his character like he yeah they said oh we're gonna have to do try something else or something and he goes says you

[00:28:31] I thought that was cool he was proud of himself and I think maybe one of the reasons why he agreed to do that was to show off for Maggie so he's showing off a little bit and in the end it kind

[00:28:39] of shows something different because Maggie gets annoyed that he doesn't value himself enough which I think is right we um there's some funny lines in this whole thing with the uh is that next week

[00:28:51] by the way I don't remember hearing her say that okay I think so it's next week yeah um they talk about the z being in there long enough to grow gills um I did like Laurie's line about the dead

[00:29:02] didn't come back to life to start reading her cupboards uh Glenn complimenting Shane on his haircut as he's getting lowered down you know he's like I really like your haircut you have a nice

[00:29:11] shaped head which I just thought was very funny um Maggie saying you people are crazy because she's not wrong and then at the end T-dog saying good thing we didn't shoot it um which I was like T-dog

[00:29:22] sass I like it because he was not wrong that probably would have been the sensible thing to do I also don't understand why they didn't just get Glenn to like knife it in the head and then anyway

[00:29:34] so there were a million other ways they could have done that well yeah maybe it would leak out but yeah I guess you're right but this is another um just a smaller scale little piece of hopes being

[00:29:45] shattered you know yeah that's what this shows is hope putting people through hell all the time nothing works out that aerial shot of the body splitting into everyone the best being pretty grossed out Maggie being absolutely horrified because we don't know at this point but

[00:30:02] what we'll find out she's never killed a walker and she I mean her brother and mother zombie mother and brother are in the barn and she's hopeful that they could be cured so anytime one

[00:30:15] of these guys gets killed I think to them it's almost like little Lizzie how she feels about it you know and you see that moment as well I totally missed this the first time I watched

[00:30:24] it with Maggie and Herschel where they're round the map and I think Shane quite rightly asks you know we've got to talk about what happens if we find Sophia and she's turned and the group kind

[00:30:35] of concedes well we deal with it you know we put her down and you see Maggie and Herschel look at each other yeah and now we know it's because that's that's right when Herschel decided you

[00:30:45] guys can't stay here yep yep and later on Herschel talks about there being reasons that he doesn't want them there that he doesn't want to go into and I'm like yeah he's like you gotta follow my

[00:30:56] secret rules that I can't tell you what they are but promise you will and Rick's like I love your secret rules Herschel sure and it's like okay we're coming around back I'm just gonna hogtie you up

[00:31:07] here no I don't know yeah I'm trying to think of some secret rules yeah on Wednesdays yeah yeah so my point was just well Walker nice to see him again not really nice to see him again could

[00:31:23] have lived without seeing him again but there he was I am impressed with how the walkers look I for some reason in my head I had it that they just kept looking better and better as the series

[00:31:34] went along but these are all great and I especially love how these early walkers have a little bit more of their humanity in them not so much this one though this was a full-on monster

[00:31:45] but it was still pretty well done it was well done well rendered but uh like uh when you know I talk about Greg Nicotero being such a horror effects geek and just you can feel the joy in it

[00:32:04] and that was maybe misplaced with I would say definitely with Glenn's death where you see the eyeball popping out and I could almost see Greg being like that looks so good not

[00:32:15] getting how it's going to crush a lot of people's spirits but in this case with this one at least for me I'm like yeah it feels like they used to do kind of a proper sort of zombie of

[00:32:26] the week situation and like a featured set and this was oh yeah it's the only one so yeah it's the only one in this episode so yeah it set the bar pretty high

[00:32:36] so it's all bloated and it got me thinking back over the course of the series how we've seen zet walkers zombies in water uh I looked it up in season four episode seven dead weight

[00:32:51] the governor kills one of his allies Pete and throws his weighted corpse into a lake and later Pete is seen there in the lake but he wasn't bloated in season five episode two

[00:33:05] strangers father Gabriel takes Rick and others to this uh to scavenge for supplies in this overrun food bank and there's walkers that have fallen into a flooded basement they weren't bogus yeah

[00:33:20] I think oh did he get bitten yeah I think that's right yeah I don't think they were bloated in season seven episode eight heart still beating Rick and Aaron retrieve supplies from an abandoned

[00:33:30] houseboat floating in the middle of a walker infested river I don't think those were bloated I mean maybe when we get there they'll be all bloated and I'll be like oh I didn't remember

[00:33:37] that but yeah but you don't know what this guy ate he might have had like a whole heap of like beer and pizza yeah I think he was already bloated yeah before that's like Maggie's uncle

[00:33:48] Bert he had gluten intolerance he ate a whole bunch of wheat and then fell down a well it was not good that's canon now that's what we're gonna say um yeah I just my whole thing about this scene

[00:34:02] is it just seems goofy it's it's well done as far as the look of the zombie but it seems like I don't think this is a good idea you guys and you fucked it up yes you fucked it up you fucked

[00:34:16] you done fucked up um but I want to go on to a full point about um Herschel and Maggie's perspective she kind of alluded to so first off we see Daryl Andrea Dale and Carol arrive with their you know caravan motorcycle Hyundai looking shiny and

[00:34:42] RV and I just had this feeling like from the greens perspective like okay more strangers are showing up how many are there how do you have more people coming and I can imagine how that

[00:34:55] might feel kind of intrusive especially when they've just lost Otis as well yeah yep and and I think I think Herschel is a good man and he can tell that they're good people and I think

[00:35:09] he would be open to letting them stay if not for his zombie wife and son and other relatives in the barn yes you mentioned you know Shane said what will happen we got to figure out what happens if

[00:35:24] Sophia Sophia we find Sophia and she's bitten and without hesitation Rick says you do it has to be done and I think it's notable he's clear-eyed about that and he actually ends up being the one to do

[00:35:36] that Shane hesitates if I remember right but um yeah Herschel and Maggie clearly don't agree and then when Rick suggests our people will set up close to the barn Herschel's like no why don't you stay closer to the house I'll just miss you if you're down there

[00:35:55] that's a stinky old barn and then when Shane wants to train everyone to use guns which I think is smart Herschel's saying he'd prefer them not carrying guns on his property which I felt

[00:36:07] like hey it's the zombie apocalypse maybe that's not smart but I think it's because he doesn't want to risk that they'll shoot his zombie relatives in the barn I think that's the main reason you know

[00:36:18] I think you might be right yeah yeah when T-dog bashes that well Zed's head in Maggie's horrified then Herschel tells Rick once you find Sophia and your son's okay for travel you guys need to

[00:36:32] move on I think the main reason he's saying that is because of all the stuff I just mentioned especially Rick saying if we if Sophia's bitten we'll have to shoot her then later it comes back

[00:36:44] and asks if come on can't we stay and he says he'll consider letting them stay if they respect his rules which he can't discuss secret rules you can be in my club if you follow my secret rules

[00:36:59] and I kind of wonder what people who were not following the comic if they were picking up on all this because I already knew there were zombies in the barn so it seems like some

[00:37:13] people would at least suspect something like that was going on right there's some ominous barn framing the way it's framed and shots are in the background so I'm like yeah I can't remember if I knew or not

[00:37:27] I genuinely knowing me I probably read somewhere that that was what happened but if any listeners remember if you didn't read the comic and you came to this episode were you like

[00:37:38] what's going on with this family or were you picking up on all this what they were putting down let me know let us know I could kind of buy that like Herschel's a bit of a gentleman who

[00:37:46] wouldn't want the guns on the farm but I remember that me too that's different from the comic for sure Herschel in the comics is is fine with weaponry on the farm um that he wouldn't want

[00:37:57] guns and even just that he would feel like all right like there's too many of you and I'm not comfortable with this that makes sense you know that there didn't have to be any other reason

[00:38:10] for it maybe but I don't know maybe everybody was just like what's going on with this guy um I was also kind of wondering why Rick is so sure that there's no hope if you're bitten but

[00:38:20] Herschel and Maggie aren't because they've all clearly seen some bad things Herschel's family was attacked by zeds but I wonder if it's Herschel's faith that might be the difference or maybe part

[00:38:32] of it is just that Rick met with Jenner you know CDC scientist who had been looking for a cure but had lost all hope to the point where he just thought we should all kill ourselves

[00:38:42] so uh the guy who one guy who maybe could have found a cure had given up hope maybe that had something to do with it I don't know he'd opted out yeah that's an interesting one is it faith

[00:38:52] versus science hmm yeah yeah right because there is that talk too with Herschel preaching to Rick and he's saying like you your son got shot but you made it okay and you you found your family

[00:39:10] you made it okay doesn't that say something to you and my thought is what about the billions of people who just died horrible deaths like if you're saying that God had something to do with

[00:39:24] Rick and his son making it through then what does that say about all those innocent men women and children who just lost their lives well that's kind of like what Maggie said last week isn't

[00:39:33] it there must have been a whole lot of prayers that went unanswered yeah yeah exactly yeah it's an interesting conversation between Rick and Herschel the one about God and faith and Rick coming out quite staunchly as someone who's lost his faith

[00:39:47] or didn't really have much to begin with he tested it out a little bit and now he's like yeah last time I talked to God my son got shot or whatever he said I mean he did get quite quite the ominous

[00:40:00] sign you know it was it was not great um it's an interesting dynamic in their relationship I think Rick and Herschel for sure I kind of have a point that carries on from that because

[00:40:18] I was thinking a lot about children and parents in The Walking Dead generally but specifically in this season and I think Rick and Herschel's conversation about fathers and sons is super informative about both of their characters although I wish we knew a bit about Rick's dad

[00:40:38] I realize that we don't really get a sense of Rick's family much at all I think he tells a story about his grandfather and we are not The Walking Dead but Herschel says that his father was

[00:40:49] a mean drunk that he didn't go to his deathbed and he doesn't regret it I had totally forgotten absolutely fair fucks to Herschel on that one yeah and he says something that um I wish I'd written

[00:41:00] down the exact quote but it's something that some men do not earn the love of their sons I don't see you having that problem yeah that's it because I'm very much of the belief that like just because

[00:41:09] your blood related to somebody doesn't mean that they you owe them shit if they're not right um and that Herschel and Rick relate to one another through their roles as fathers but also

[00:41:23] I really feel that Herschel becomes a father to Rick like I think that is the relationship they have is father-son relationship it was great because that it was in that moment where Rick

[00:41:36] Herschel was turning Rick down basically and Rick came back and asked hey can you give me a second thought or second chance and then Herschel just tuned into the problem I mean Rick was sort of

[00:41:48] wearing it on his sleeve I don't want to fail my son I lied to him earlier but Rick I mean Herschel just went right into like yeah father mode or counselor mode or something really sweet and I

[00:41:58] loved the exchange where he says um you're putting me on the spot here and Rick says I mean to like I like that it was very respectful but it was forceful in the right kind of way um assertive

[00:42:10] not aggressive yeah assertive and the the Rick does so much diplomacy with Herschel in this season in a way and that I think is the the difference perhaps between Rick and Shane's leadership

[00:42:24] styles is Rick will do soft diplomacy things at this stage anyway by the time we get to Alexandria like who's waving his gun around yeah in Alexandria he's like ah and Michonne's like well just knock

[00:42:38] him out it'll be fine at this stage in the game this stage of his development he's still doing the soft diplomacy and trying to play by the rules and he realizes that what you know when

[00:42:47] Michonne knocked him out that's right when he knew he found the right woman for him yeah that's my girl Laurie would have just sulked in the RV um but you see it's a strength I think and Herschel respects that whereas Shane is clearly

[00:43:06] doing more decisive actions in terms of killing Otis and getting Carl the medication and the supplies that he needed but he finds it harder to abide by rules than Rick although he is at this

[00:43:21] in this episode presumably out of guilt for Otis is trying a bit harder than he maybe does in later episodes because Andrea comes up to kind of try and I don't know suck up to Shane like give up

[00:43:33] our guns and Shane's just like we just got to respect it we just got to respect it that moment I was like Andrea I was a little annoyed like yeah Shane's got a point you are their guests like

[00:43:45] they've made this request but then I thought about a little bit more I'm like well yeah but Andrea didn't really get the choice like the men decided okay we're gonna go along with

[00:43:52] what our our hosts have requested and you have no choice and she's just sick of that and I don't blame her for that yeah that would be super frustrating um so I just I like it I like

[00:44:04] watching the the dynamic with Rick and Herschel develop I like the the mutual respect they have but also the way they push each other a little Herschel pushes Rick to consider open-mindedness

[00:44:16] to faith more uh Rick pushes Herschel to face reality a little bit more but also to give him guidance in and you see this a lot I think in season four at the prison um when Herschel's kind

[00:44:30] of my favorite version of Herschel which is the sort of chilled out Herschel who's got a little ponytail and only one leg and sort of he's all about just love thy neighbor I find this Herschel

[00:44:41] harder to warm to I have to say I don't love him at this point but I think what they're I like what they're bringing together and the tension and the the respect there is really

[00:44:54] powerful to watch I like him now but yeah I think I like him even more later but we've been watching the bad lip reading Walking Dead the one with Carl Papa oh Carl Papa Rick and I mean Herschel's like

[00:45:13] uh Carl's like do you want to do you want him hold my stick or something like that and yeah Herschel's like no no I forget what he said but then he just goes later tater and turns and

[00:45:27] but my son Bodhi who's he's wants to hear that Carl song over over and over again jiggy jar jar do it's so good you guys haven't seen that you should watch it we used to play it it's bad

[00:45:42] lip reading so they take scenes from different things in this case the Walking Dead and just make up what it seems like they're saying and sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't

[00:45:50] it's really really funny and it's on YouTube and um we used to play it in between I remember in between panels at the walk at the Walker Stocker and uh Chandler Riggs loved it in fact

[00:46:03] I found a Chandler Riggs reacting to that so you can go on YouTube and see him watching it it's the best one they do the Twilight one is quite good as well but Carl Papa is

[00:46:12] the best one I think because the song actually is a bop like it's actually quite because the guy who makes these I think he's some famous song producer but he hasn't revealed his name because

[00:46:23] he doesn't want to mess with his brand by saying he does this goofy stuff too or something oh my god it's cheesy it's cheesy isn't it um but I so I think the way that Herschel really influenced

[00:46:38] Rick here was he gave him a pep talk about his father his abilities as a father you know saying hey my father was shit basically but you're doing great and yeah and so and Rick had

[00:46:51] been saying I feel bad about having lied to Carl so after Herschel gave him this pep talk he goes right over to Carl apologizes about lying that Sophie is okay which I thought was really really

[00:47:02] nice and then there's a sweet moment where Carl says hey we're the same we we got we both got shot and um that's when Rick gives him the iconic sheriff's hat that Carl wears for years and then

[00:47:15] gets passed on to Judith and that I mean just thinking about the hat objects are so important to this show Rick's cult python and sheriff's hat Daryl's crossbow and angel wing vests Michonne's

[00:47:27] katana on and on and on mostly weapons but a lot of other things too and then this kind of confused me like Rick puts away his badge and uniform and it's and Laurie's like are you putting that away

[00:47:40] and I thought maybe had something to do with him saying to Herschel these people look to me for answers I wish they didn't but they do but I'm like you're the one who keeps making decisions

[00:47:51] and insisting on doing it going to the CDC doing it your way and I don't think he stopped doing that after this so I was like what does this signify nothing you're tired of wearing it

[00:48:01] His own worst enemy I mean it signifies that he's maybe a bit too comfortable in Herschel's house because I don't think he's sleeping in that room like Patricia's gonna be like looking for something to be like

[00:48:10] what the hell is this why the fuck is that in here like yeah no never mind um I'm gonna go for midi symbolism of I don't know being a dad not a cop I think he is sort of feeling like

[00:48:27] like I had been saying in the episodes leading up to this it's about his doubt in his um decision making ability and whether he's doing the right thing and even when he's talking to

[00:48:37] Herschel he's sort of saying that so he has this instinct to give it up but he's at war with himself maybe that's what I'm gonna say where he's like unsure but he just can't help himself

[00:48:49] and that's like Rick to a tee isn't it like that's what you see in future seasons is he can't not do it but he doesn't always want to do it and he doesn't always feel comfortable doing it um

[00:49:00] yeah yeah yeah and I still love him as a character he's still my favorite um and I just speaking of parenthood so yeah Laurie realizes she's pregnant she takes the pregnancy test

[00:49:16] and I think at this point probably the first question everyone has is I wonder if that was Shane or Ricks right when you're watching. For it to have shown up on the test it would need to be

[00:49:28] Shane's because Rick's only been there a week. It'd be really quick. It couldn't have been um before like how far are we after Rick went to a coma? At least two months. And so that she'd

[00:49:43] be too far along at that point? I think so and it didn't seem like they were super close before he got shot. Right totally and I think I mean Rick thinks it's Shane's he says so in season eight

[00:49:58] and even Andrew Lincoln thinks that too he said in an interview Rick is not Judith's father but he's her dad so yeah I think we're as sure as we can be that it's Shane's but I think maybe

[00:50:11] there could be a chance I don't know maybe I'm wrong about that like I don't think it's cut and shut but I do think it's very unlikely to be Rick. Yeah I mean what if they're one of

[00:50:23] those couples that just keeps on having sex even when they're fighting and they slept together the night before Rick got shot? Maybe but probably not. Maybe the other thing that makes gives me

[00:50:32] pause is that they only have one kid already and that kid is like seven or eight at this point and I'm like were they having first like I don't know I mean you can you can have just one kid I'm an

[00:50:45] only child we are great but yeah part of me is like are signs pointing to this? Yeah and in the wiki it says not that the wiki's 100% but it does list Shane as her father and Rick is her

[00:50:58] adoptive father so I think that's what everyone pretty much thinks. I think in The Walking Dead if you kill the parent you have to become the parent I think that's the rule of adoption is

[00:51:07] if you kill the dad you then have to be the dad those are the rules. Only in The Walking Dead. I just enforce them. All right um I want to talk about Glenn and Maggie and how Glenn

[00:51:19] treated and portrayed. I love this Glenn he comes off so funny funny and endearing he's he seems out of his depth and bewildered mostly about social things but he's always good-natured

[00:51:36] and capable um like it's funny Maggie recruited him to go to the pharmacy and she's all all right I'll go saddle your horse then and she takes off and he turns to Dale horse.

[00:51:50] I think Rick's playing matchmaker Rick's the one who says to Maggie um he's our go-to-town expert which is an innuendo if ever I heard one. I don't think he meant it that way. I think he was

[00:52:03] I think he was setting them up I don't think he meant go to town as in go to town I think I think he knew what he was doing. Okay I don't think so I think Rick's too got his mind on too many other

[00:52:14] things for that. I don't know I think it's his buddy Glenn. Glenn used to go into Atlanta a lot but then um Glenn is looking through his binoculars and seeing Maggie riding up on

[00:52:26] her horse and he goes hello farmer's daughter and then Laurie comes into view like the Tusken Raider in Star Wars on Tatooine in front of Luke you know ultimate buzzkill I need you to give me

[00:52:37] a pregnancy test like oh god yeah and then on the way to the pharmacy Glenn's like you know normally this is the kind of thing I do on my own solo sort of my thing you know I'm a loner and the tone

[00:52:49] sounds like he's trying to impress her which I think he is but also he's telling the truth if you think about it he used to go into Atlanta on his own. Yeah he did. And then in the pharmacy

[00:53:00] that whole thing where he's trying to hide the pregnancy test and she's like what you got there grabbed the nearest box which turned out to be condoms. Yeah. You got a girlfriend I don't know

[00:53:10] about? No. Then you're a pretty confident guy. No no no no no no. I would never have sex. Something wrong with me? I would never have sex. So uh it's so funny even when he gives Laurie the pregnancy test he's like here and he looks bewildered and beleaguered

[00:53:30] and doesn't say anything. And so I love all this in our interview with Stephen Young back in the day it was clear he didn't like the idea of being comic relief of Glenn being comic

[00:53:41] relief and I'm pretty sure Stephen Young influenced how Glenn was portrayed as the series went along basically he's a boy who we see become a man I would say or a young man become a man and um

[00:53:54] I miss this endearingly goofy Glenn but I also get where Stephen Young is coming from like we love Glenn but also I don't think he gets full respect from the other characters. I mean it's

[00:54:09] sort of fair he is young and inexperienced but um we get to see him grow into a man and you know a respectable person who's serious and now though because he he's clearly a capable person but just

[00:54:25] because he has this uh nature where he seems a little bit shaken and comes off that way people treat him worse than he deserves I think most notably that they volunteer him for dangerous

[00:54:41] things like when Andrea says you know they're standing around trying to figure out how to get this uh bloated zombie out of the well and she goes we need live bait and looks right at Glenn

[00:54:53] it's kind of funny but it's also very rude like yeah this is his life you're talking about here do we really need it that bad? She wouldn't have done that to Amy. Yeah yeah exactly and so um

[00:55:08] yeah when so so all that is in the background and then um when Rick suggests Maggie take Glenn down the supply run and Maggie goes I hear you're fast on your feet and know how to get in and out

[00:55:21] she knows what she's saying I don't think Rick did maybe I'm wrong but she knows what she's saying Rick didn't know that he was doing an inyandu but I think he knew I think he was doing Glenn

[00:55:31] a solid putting him with the pretty farmers group. All right we'll have to agree we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Because I think he's also hinting at Shane about Andrea in this. Oh really?

[00:55:41] Yeah I think there's a little bit of like I mean he's got motivation to get Shane away from his wife I guess. I think it's in the next episode I don't think it's oh okay okay interesting okay

[00:55:54] maybe um so anyway she's Maggie's clearly being provocative you're fast on your feet know how to get in and out knowing it'll throw him off balance I think she knows already that she's

[00:56:06] most likely gonna proposition him maybe and so when she says I'll have sex with you I remember feeling like that felt so out of the blue and it felt like it was put in just because that happened

[00:56:19] in the comics on rewatch it makes a little more sense because now I see that she was into him from the first moment she saw him I think and I still think maybe that's out of character for Maggie.

[00:56:34] I don't judge it I just it doesn't seem like the Maggie we know would do but then again we haven't seen her meet a lot of guys and maybe she's just like that some people surprise you you know maybe

[00:56:45] she's just forward. She says you're not the only one that's lonely. Yeah and he never said he was lonely but she could tell and I think that's cool they could read each other and I also think

[00:56:56] Walking Dead totally snuck a sexy farmer's daughter storyline in there right out of erotica. Yeah Glenn knew. Glenn is like hell yeah. And uh when she said that personally I might be a little

[00:57:10] put off by that like I'll have sex with you I'm like we don't even know each other but uh maybe if I was Glenn's age maybe not. But also like they might be dead tomorrow. That's true good

[00:57:21] point yeah that changed that'll change your behavior so that's a very good point then Glenn and Maggie are riding up on their horse afterwards she he's smiling and about to say

[00:57:30] something and she says don't spoil it which I thought was hilarious and he goes so it was good and she goes it's a one-time thing which I think means it could mean a few different things but

[00:57:41] that she was lonely and attracted to Glenn so she went for it but she does want to get to know him I still think she thinks there's possibilities there but she doesn't want him to take it for

[00:57:51] granted think that she's a given if anything's going to happen it does have to develop it's not just a given that okay we had sex now so we're together you know and and I and it's a challenge

[00:58:01] to him too like if you're really into me you're gonna have to try but um yeah but if I were him I would also have it in my head that I'm not a given either let's see how this goes you know

[00:58:12] but you know if you could tell straight away fucking Herschel oh yeah Herschel's like and she's like nothing happened and Herschel's like and I'm like oh he's like Herschel's like this again every week with you dad radar he's like Maggie's been doing that again

[00:58:32] okay maybe so oh funny I prefer show Maggie to comic Maggie um comic Maggie is a bit more I love them both erratic I like them both I especially like I actually think

[00:58:52] I like where comic Maggie ends up more because of where the story takes her but at this stage in the story they they definitely soften Maggie a lot for the show and that's one reason why that

[00:59:06] didn't make as much sense what she said yeah I think because she's a little bit more like a goth girl or something in the comic like in the comic she's she's more like Beth in some ways like

[00:59:17] Beth kind of dallys a bit with more sort of teenage emotions in terms of like wanting to self-harm and right being quite having quite bad mental health and a lot of understatement of the year for anyone

[00:59:32] in The Walking Dead um which is much more Maggie's storyline in the comics whereas the Maggie that we see in the show is is pretty stable like she was well adjusted yeah no more or less than kind of

[00:59:47] anyone else in that sense so yeah I do agree with you that it does seem a bit out of character for the Maggie we know here but when Glenn says you know I was thinking I would be dead tomorrow I am

[00:59:58] like oh yeah no you would do stuff differently if you really thought your life was on the line and you had just been dropped down in a well like a hand ham that's right yeah I can't disagree with

[01:00:09] that good yeah so that's kind of where I'm at with it I loved seeing them together I don't yeah I don't think Rick was like these guys are totally gonna f**k but I do think he

[01:00:23] would recognize that Glenn was sweet on Maggie and that it might be nice for them to hang out I don't know maybe Rick's really innocent I think he's oblivious I don't know why I think that

[01:00:33] I just think he's like yeah Glenn's the guy who got into town a lot I should put these two together not even because you don't believe in love no no I don't believe in Rick knows anything about love

[01:00:47] yes I mean fair yeah I what else um Lauren Cohen and Stephen Young are both super hot I'm just like yeah thank you for this this romance it's great and it's nice to see just

[01:01:06] an uncomplicated love story blossoming yeah that's true it is a good it is good I like complicated things but it's nice to have one that's not that complicated and it's just

[01:01:19] sweet it's just sweet and I want to kind of I know that's the thing something I want to just enjoy it um my last point is sort of the other end of the spectrum which is Shane and Andrea

[01:01:33] I find myself kind of rooting for Shane and Andrea as a couple which is really awful particularly like either of them but without Laurie around you can see them you know Andrea

[01:01:45] wants to learn Shane wants to teach her um there's a bit of an alliance there they are both kind of outsiders and you know what Andrea says about them kind of sticking out of the group because

[01:01:58] they're not part of any of those units is is true she said something to him and he just kind of shut it down a little bit but I think in a way that she found really attractive like yeah I'm gonna say

[01:02:10] I don't think Andrea's got great taste in men I mean oh my god as well I just want to give a moment for how like good horrific Shane looks in Otis's clothes like I was actually laughing my head off

[01:02:25] at the opening scenes of this where it's like short-haired John Bernthal with his ears sticking out like some kind of cartoon of a hillbilly in those overall dungaree situation things digging a

[01:02:36] grave for this dude that he's just killed it really made me laugh I was like you know what if you can still pull when you look like that then fine I didn't know you were such a lobe shamer but

[01:02:46] okay the way they were shooting it though I just I miss his lovely hair grow your hair back John looks nicer grow it nice and long yeah grow it long thank you I don't think that I don't think

[01:03:02] much happens with Andrea and Shane in this one she kind of sticks up for Dale a little bit like Shane is trying to suck up to her by being like oh Dale's worried that you're gonna blow your brains

[01:03:10] out etc etc but you can see them getting a bit closer which I think comes to fruition quite soon if I remember my timeline correctly and that could have been a nice you know in a world where

[01:03:23] Laurie wasn't pregnant and Shane didn't go quite as off the rails as he did you can maybe see a Shane and Andrea thing working out yeah but alas it is not to be I remember thinking when they

[01:03:37] hooked up I think I remember thinking man that seemed to come out of the blue too but now we're seeing the seeds of it in each episode there's a little interaction between the two of them so yeah

[01:03:49] yeah um and that that's it for my points I think that is one more it's also about Shane you know he he's feeling guilty about what he did with Otis and they're really making a lot of hay

[01:04:06] out of it like oh he has that monologue yeah they'd have lost Carl if not for Shane and I agree with that and that's the show reinforcing it but he you tell he feels uncomfortable hearing it

[01:04:18] and then yeah Herschel gives the eulogy for Otis and he's saying he died as he lived in grace and then you see Shane flashing back on this horror and it's hilarious stop punching me and then

[01:04:34] and it's it's sad but it's also kind of funny and then Herschel says Shane will you speak for Otis which is hilarious and Shane's like I'm not good at it sorry and Patricia you were the last one

[01:04:45] with him will you share his final moments oh Patricia's so into it well I shot him in the knee and then he started clawing at me yeah then he pulled my hair out dickhead

[01:04:57] then I got this haircut but I felt I actually felt bad for Shane here I mean yeah I mean it's one thing to do all that it's another thing to be like a wearing that disgusting outfit and be

[01:05:08] having to like sit through the funeral while everyone's like when people want you to speak and and yeah he's wearing the outfit too that just adds another level of horribleness to it

[01:05:20] and then he says if not for Otis I never would have made it out alive and that goes for Carl if any death ever had meaning it was his it was a nice thing to say and I was thinking it's too

[01:05:31] bad Shane can't tell the truth of what happened I don't think he could but I thought you know if you were to it would sound something like we were both hobbled if one of us didn't sacrifice himself

[01:05:42] to distract the walkers we both would have died and so would have Carl I told Otis to go ahead but he refused so I shot Otis to save myself and Carl if I hadn't done that all three of us would

[01:05:52] have died I don't know how Otis could have survived this no matter what I did you know something like that but I think if he said that then they'd be like get off our farm Patricia would have just like bitten his throat and it'd be like okay

[01:06:06] right oh I love Patricia and then when he's talking to Andrea about the guns he's giving her some a lesson paper targets is one thing easy to hit what ain't moving but taking

[01:06:21] down an assailant the one that's trying to kill you it's different they say in that kind of situation things slow down that's crap they speed up adrenaline high it'll cripple you if you let

[01:06:29] it you need to use your instinct you got to rule it out because somebody's going to die and you'd better hope that you're the one who's making that decision so he's talking about a situation where

[01:06:38] another person has a gun which I think is because of his police training you know doesn't really apply to zombies but I wonder if he's thinking about when Rick got shot and he blamed himself for

[01:06:49] not seeing the third guy yeah but it also seems relevant to Otis it's not at all the same situation where you have an assailant threatening you but Shane did make the decision here you know

[01:06:58] he said you better hope you're the one who's making the decision because someone's going to die and then he goes there ain't nothing easy about taking a man's life no matter how little value

[01:07:07] it may have but when you get it done you have to forget it I guess haven't quite got that last part down yet I think he's totally think about Otis here so he's telling her without telling

[01:07:16] her I don't think Andrea realizes but yeah I don't think so he's think she probably just thinks he killed someone in the line of duty or something yeah he's a bad boy that's why I love this guy

[01:07:28] yeah so notes I'm looking for my notes um Laurie takes the quickest pregnancy test in the world like they usually have to wait a few moments but she's like oh nope that's me pregnant

[01:07:43] um so pregnant it just came out so pregnant the test just exploded like um I did feel for her in the field on her own with that I mean that's got to be yeah devastating like I spoke about a

[01:07:59] little bit about this at the top but like not only is it kind of an unwanted pregnancy out of likely out of infidelity it's also like death sentence um right and that's unintentional infidelity but yeah exactly complicated yeah and she hasn't told Rick about that yet and

[01:08:18] I can't remember if she tells him about the pregnancy but I'm guessing not since she's been keeping it all a secret so it's very soap opera yeah I think he finds the both the morning after pills and the pronatal litmus so yeah it's a mixed message for Rick

[01:08:33] um and it's just quite a powerful scene to end on her on her own in the field like that um even hear the sound of the peeing which is quite an interesting choice yeah well done Sarah Wayne

[01:08:46] I know it was a sound effect but maybe not so when Herschel's giving his eulogy it's kind of striking to see pretty much everyone in the cast all lined up there except for Carl

[01:08:59] who's in bed and yeah I couldn't help but think how many of those are gone Patricia of course um and Jimmy but also Beth, Andrea, Lori, Shane, Dale and Glenn all gone and alive and Herschel

[01:09:18] god I can't believe I forgot him and also and alive are Maggie, Carol, Rick and Daryl that's wild and Judith if you count Judith as being seen yeah that's right that's right uh

[01:09:30] we see the barn as you said set off and I feel like this is really the first full view of the barn they're really they are starting to focus on it now to sort of hint that there's something

[01:09:40] about that barn um but I when I see it it's just one of my most vivid memories of being on set it's feeling the intense heat coming off of it when it went up in flames just like oh really hot

[01:09:53] really hot uh the shiny Hyundai is very prominent is this the first time it's been so prominent I don't know maybe not they've been they cleaned it in the first episode and it's uh it's getting

[01:10:06] there it's becoming a main character uh Shane asked Lori if she meant it when she asked him to stay yes and Lori kind of demurely goes I meant it and that did make me wonder if it's really all

[01:10:22] about Carl or if there's something more because if it's not if it is about Carl then she should have said I meant it for Carl's sake and that's all that I meant but otherwise I feel like it's

[01:10:32] just encouraging him because we know that he thought he should leave because I think because he couldn't let go of the idea of not being with Lori so she needs to make it clear that's not what

[01:10:41] it's about if that's not what it's about you know this is where it gets a bit murky I think I'm like yeah um I always thought it was weird to have people with similar names Darryl Dale Carol Carl

[01:10:56] and Merle you had to kill some of them off just to keep it clear I like that yeah that's fair point I always uh thought I was critical that there would be anything left in the pharmacy because

[01:11:11] I think people would just loot the hell out of everything especially a pharmacy but I think that's why they put the sign outside that said take what you need and god bless

[01:11:21] maybe that helps explain it a little maybe in a small town people might respect that and just take what they need I think that was the idea of that sign anyway I kind of doubt it but maybe

[01:11:31] like you it it's hope isn't it you hope that people would be like that in reality you'd be fighting over toilet paper like yeah yeah yeah maybe and then last uh t-dog says to

[01:11:43] Dale you know what I said on the highway I didn't know what that was or where it came from it wasn't me if it's okay I'd rather you never told anybody about that stuff I said and Dale

[01:11:52] said what stuff I couldn't get a word out of you all day which was a nice little exchange and then t-dog flashes his big smile and he's got such a great smile and it reminds me of when I was

[01:12:05] on the farm a bunch of us zombies were just milling around at night and irony singleton walks out and he's just like you know 10 feet away or something like that and I just was watching him

[01:12:19] like oh there's t-dog that is so cool and he just like turned and looked over and I guess he just saw me watching him and he just walked over to me through a few other zombies and gave me a hug

[01:12:33] and I never knew him or anything yeah I was like wow what a nice guy oh that's really cute it's good guy oh all right what about trivia uh not law I thought they'd be lords for this episode

[01:12:53] the IMDB told me that the Cherokee rose was a state flower of Georgia that it came to the USA in roughly 1790 not 1780 as I read elsewhere the beer bottle that Darrell puts the Cherokee rose in is from Sweetwater Brewery which is a Georgia brewery

[01:13:11] not too far from where the farm is so that's a little nod to the local area and for some reason this was a fact in IMDB in Victoria Australia there is a town called Glenmaggie

[01:13:26] so if we have any listeners from Glenmaggie uh let us know because I thought that was really interesting um and in our apocalypse timeline we are moving really at a snail's pace it's still

[01:13:36] only day 68 so all the Otis stuff went down in the small hours of the morning and this is so he died just the night before huh and this is yeah I would imagine round about one or two a.m.

[01:13:51] and this is them and Rex like can we stay here forever yeah please can we stay I guess Otis must have had a room like you know can we have his room like no no you cannot um it does say

[01:14:06] here Sarah Wayne Kelly's actually peed in the ep no I'm just kidding I am DP so only on The Walking Dead would they spend six episodes building up our hopes only to crush them

[01:14:20] I guess that comes a little later but that's what I was thinking of only on The Walking Dead would they I don't know waste a cooked ham on a zombie in a well it's that's my choice for this

[01:14:32] episode they're like we need to risk someone's life because water is important and then it gets all fucked up and they're like oh well seal off that dam I guess we'll figure out something else

[01:14:44] we'll use one of the other four that would have been great if uh Maggie would have been like well I guess we'll have to use one of them other wells yeah well there are there are five there are five

[01:14:57] what she's like there are five whales on our property dude that makes it even times stupider that's the one that the cows drink out of that's important yep yep those cows have been drinking skanky water route B I heard that gingerbread boy cause he's pretend bread boy

[01:15:21] little cookie man never waved to me so he got knocked out because I flow may not just flow just too shy No one warned, you're sticking to Yara. Obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens. The people it kills get up and tip. Are they slow moving, Chief?

[01:15:45] Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up. This is a Walking Deadcast News Update. Alright, just a couple of things, some speculation. If you follow the Marvel Cinematic Universe very closely, you know that the next big villain is, or maybe was, supposed to be Kang the Conqueror,

[01:16:06] who up to now has been played by Angela Kang, who's been played by actor Jonathan Majors. He appeared in the Loki TV series both seasons and in Ant-Man and Quantumania, and maybe something else, I can't remember, and an upcoming Avengers movie called Avengers The Kang Dynasty.

[01:16:25] But Jonathan Majors was recently fired by Marvel slash Disney because he was found guilty on charges of assault and harassment of a former girlfriend. And so now there's talk about what Marvel will do next, that there's been talk maybe they'll shift over to a new

[01:16:42] big bad guy, Doctor Doom or something, or maybe they'll recast the role. And the reason why I'm talking about this is I just read a couple of rumors that Coleman Domingo is being considered, who played Strand in Fear of the Walking Dead. That would be awesome.

[01:16:58] I see that. He's a good actor. I saw a trailer for a movie he's in that's on Netflix now called Rustin, which is about this gay civil rights activist, Bayard Rustin, who organized the March in Washington where Martin Luther King gave his I Have a Dream speech.

[01:17:15] And he looked great in the trailer. It made me want to watch the movie. He won a Golden Globe for it. He's also won an Emmy for his guest spot in HBO's Euphoria, and he's in the new version of The Color Purple.

[01:17:30] So he's been getting some work after Fear, which makes me feel really good. Why the fuck was he? Anyway, yeah. No, all the good things for Coleman Domingo. I'm just a bit worried about why he was still on Fear at the end.

[01:17:41] Yeah, I think you might be a good fit for that role. I do. I totally do. I think it'd be awesome. Do you know, have you seen any of that? I haven't. I think I missed Quantumania. I've caught bits and pieces of Loki because Peter's been watching it,

[01:17:58] but I haven't been watching it in earnest. I really enjoyed Jonathan Major's in Lovecraft Country. It's disappointing to see how things have turned out for him and the things he's done. But yeah, interesting to see where it'll take Marvel, I guess.

[01:18:12] And I'm not saying this just because it turns out that apparently he's a total douchebag, but I never really liked his acting that much. I didn't understand. He just is weird. He's acting all weird. So did you watch Lovecraft Country? No, I really didn't get into that.

[01:18:32] I think I saw the first episode. So yeah, I don't remember. But that's the only thing I'd really seen him in. Speaking of the MCU, we'd mentioned in a past episode that Steven Yeun was rumored to be playing this character called the Sentry in the upcoming Thunderbolts movie.

[01:18:49] I was excited, but now Variety reports that Steven Yeun has pulled out of the movie. But he's announced a new thing that he's in today. He's going to be Spider-Man. Yeah, he's going to be Spider-Man. According to ComingSoon.net,

[01:19:06] Steven Yeun is reportedly reteaming with Minari director Lee Isaac Chung for a new romance movie. According to IndieWire, killers of the Flower Moon, the Osage murders and the birth of the FBI author David Graham is writing a small love story for Lee Isaac Chung to direct.

[01:19:20] It will star Yeun, who played the lead role in Minari, and will be produced by Parasite director Bong Joon-ho. That's cool. I'm glad that Steven Yeun works with some of the same people. Bong Joon-ho, of course, directed Parasite, which was an amazing movie.

[01:19:35] It won Best Film a few years ago. But he also directed Okja, which Steven Yeun was in. Loved Okja. It was really good. And he's doing this movie called Mickey 17. It's a science fiction movie written, directed and co-produced by Bong Joon-ho.

[01:19:50] And it stars Robert Pattinson, Steven Yeun, Tony Collette, among others, Mark Ruffalo. Released March 29th, 2024. So I had forgotten about that. It was announced a while back. Oh, we'll need to cover that. That sounds interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I hope it's good.

[01:20:09] But yeah, great people to go back to work with. But I mean, you're suggesting that maybe he bailed out of Thunderbolts to do this movie. I don't know. I mean, he says it's timing and stuff. I mean, it probably is.

[01:20:22] But it seems like what we've said about Steven Yeun wanting to be taken seriously. I was surprised when I heard he was going to do Marvel. I was pleased, but I was a bit like, oh, okay. So this maybe makes more sense as a move for him.

[01:20:38] Thunderbolts, the one he was going to be in, is written or co-written by Beef creator Lee Sung Jin. So that might be how he got attached. Talking about why he left, he said to Variety,

[01:20:51] I think for me time passing and things shifting kind of pulled me out of it. But Jake Schreier, the director, I guess I know is going to do an incredible job. So that sounds a little nebulous. Like, I just realized over time I didn't want to do it.

[01:21:05] I mean, the news articles had been framing it as a scheduling thing. But from what he said, it doesn't sound like that. It sounds like there's more to the story. But he does say, I want to do a Marvel movie.

[01:21:16] It took a lot of drafts on email to make sure that I conveyed the sincerity of how sorry I was to have to back out. And then when they asked him what Marvel movie he would want to work on, he said,

[01:21:25] I think it's too early to say that. I probably pissed off too many people leaving. So I'm just going to say thank you for having me. I have some ideas. But I heard if you put it out there, you'll never get it.

[01:21:35] So I'll keep it close to my chest. So to me, that sounds like he does have an idea of what he might want to do for Marvel. And I don't know, man, the more Steven Yeun, I think he's just very particular about what he wants to do.

[01:21:49] I've said that before. He's careful. And maybe he just had second thoughts about this one. But if you can believe him, it sounds like he does have other ideas. Maybe the development of Thunderbolts, there was something that he didn't like. Yeah. Maybe he wants to be Kang.

[01:22:05] Maybe he wants to be Kang. That'd be awesome. Or maybe the Sentry ended up being comic relief and he's like, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. You never know. Maybe there was a well scene and he's like, I'm not doing that anymore. I've been down my last well.

[01:22:23] Like, OK. Yeah. For some reason, he just emailed us and said he's been down his last well and that was it. That diva with his no well writer. All right. Now it's time for some Lister Mone's Growns Grunts. We got kind of a bunch.

[01:22:43] I'm happy that you guys are engaged with this. It's great. Oh, I'm having fun. I feel like I should add feedback. I'm really enjoying doing the rewatch. But first up, we have Cara Latiole. Apologies if I pronounced that wrong.

[01:22:58] Do you want me to tell you how to say it right? Yeah, that'd be great. Latiole. That's how she says it. Latiole. Oh, that's a lovely name. Cara Latiole says, I was still all in for season two when this episode aired.

[01:23:09] I remember hating the wait between the previous episode and this one because I wanted to see how things played out with Shane after sacrificing Otis.

[01:23:16] That being said, I was pretty much over that damn farm from this episode right up until the finale with the exception of that Sophia reveal in episode seven.

[01:23:24] For this episode, I loved seeing the beginning of Carol and Daryl's friendship, Maggie and Glenn's romance and the utterly disgusting Will Walker. When Daryl gave Carol the Cherokee rose, he really started to grow on me.

[01:23:37] In a rewatch, it just makes me wish we'd gotten more Carol and Daryl moments overall. I'm trying to think if I agree with that. I do think this, given how their story developed, the scene just takes on a whole new significance and perspective.

[01:23:54] And it's really cool to see at this point. And when I first saw it, I thought it was cheesy, but now I think it's really sweet. Thanks, Cara. Val Leroy says definitely not enough zombies, although the one in the well ripping into made up for it.

[01:24:10] I did like seeing the beginning of Maggie and Glenn's romance and also the friendship between Daryl and Carol. Although I remember it made me cringe the first time I watched it. I'm right there with you. Carol isn't doing much at all except waiting around.

[01:24:21] I'm glad her character evolved later on. Oh, and I listened to the old podcast from this episode again. And I laughed when you, Jason, predicted that Merle was going to come back with Sophia in the next episode.

[01:24:33] I wish that prediction was right so we didn't have to wait another three episodes to be done with that storyline. Oh, what a terrible babysitter Merle would be. Oh, God. Thanks, Val. Alex Kruger says, hey guys, long time listener, first time commenter. Oh, thank you, Alex.

[01:24:54] This episode is a tough one to get through. Its pace is so slow, but there are some top shelf moments. The introduction of the Cherokee Rose, which Daryl also later puts on Carol's empty grave at the prison. The well walker and of course Maggie and Glenn's first tryst.

[01:25:08] Not to mention the first indication that a little ass kicker will be joining our merry band of survivors. Yet the episode is still just meh. This section of the series is a less effective version of the Game of Thrones staple, smart people in rooms having smart conversations.

[01:25:24] And it just doesn't hit right. The next few episodes are better, so we just had to get through this log. Great work on this rewatch so far team. Don't get bit. Aw, thanks, Alex.

[01:25:37] To me watching it now, I'm like, oh, this eulogy scene is twisted in a funny and sort of sad way for Shane. Because they're like, can you speak, Shane? And then, I mean, the scene with Maggie and Glenn, all their scenes are just gold.

[01:25:56] And what was the other aspect? I mean, the Herschel, like getting to know Rick is pretty good. Like, yeah, on rewatch, I like way more of it than I don't like. So I think there's a lot of great moments.

[01:26:11] The well scene is kind of dumb, but also really cool to see the gorishness of it. So I like it more. Absolutely. Chandra Wright says, it's hard for me to recall what I originally thought or felt during these episodes, but I've always been so fond of Herschel.

[01:26:27] He's calm, a great dad, a man of faith and becomes a good friend and sounding board, not only to Rick, but to so many characters he comes into contact with.

[01:26:35] This time around, it dawned on me that Daryl's insistence that Sophia was still alive was rooted in Merle's disappearance and his hopes for his brother. I should have realized before that the level of his intensity to find her was rooted in his own circumstance.

[01:26:51] If little Sophia could make it on her own, that would mean his brother could too. That's not to say he wasn't genuinely hoping to find her alive. I just realized it was also symbolic for him.

[01:27:01] I think I might've been thinking that early on too, but I don't know for sure. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I hadn't thought of that, Chandra. I like that. Jennifer McGinley says, What? This one was a belter. Loads of season 2 Daryl to schwang over.

[01:27:21] I do admit the Cherokee Rose speech to Daryl was a bit vomit inducing and totally out of character for Daryl who hadn't that long spat in Daryl's face. She ain't my kid. Paraphrasing. Ooh, flashback to Daryl's face. Tremendous acting. Well Walker, where's Glen? Glen, get in the well.

[01:27:38] Laughing my ass off. We trip to the pharmacy. What's not to love? Season 2 excites me. There's not a bad episode in it. Chupacabra and Nebraska are in my top 5 episodes. Sure, there's some shite in it. Beth's suicidal ideation and Andrew's involvement in that was a bit superfluous.

[01:27:55] Laurie's hilarious road traffic accident and killing a walker with a biro. Carol's utter stupidity getting Dale killed. I remember on first watch being so sad about Dale and every rewatch I'm like, oh fucking die you sanctimonious old bastard.

[01:28:12] Sorry, turning this into a review for the whole of season 2 later. P.S. I wasn't going to join your rewatch until season 3 as I've seen season 1 and season 2 so many times but I'm going to join you here at Cherokee Rose and watch along.

[01:28:25] And I'm not just saying that because Chupacabra's next. Or am I? I don't know Jennifer, are you? I think yes. Becky Anderson says, hello TWD fam here are my thoughts. Shane and Otis clothing looked ridiculous. I didn't even notice now I gotta go back and look.

[01:28:46] Sweet Carl asking about Sophia as soon as he wakes up. I'm not sure why I find Carl so annoying the first time around. Yeah like the first time he was like where's Sophia and I'm like shut up. Shut up dork.

[01:28:58] Bernthal did another great job when Shane was asked to give the speech. You could see every emotion out there run across his face before he agreed to speak and during the speech.

[01:29:09] He wasn't completely honest about what went down but I thought in the end when describing what kind of man Otis was, it was very meaningful. He twitches his head a lot when he's feeling ashamed. He does.

[01:29:21] It's weird to see Herschel helping plan the search for Sophia knowing what we do now. I couldn't understand why he was so insistent on why Rick's group leave ASAP and stay away from the barn. Now I know.

[01:29:33] I totally forgot about the swimmer in the well. The makeup department did an excellent job on that one. So gross.

[01:29:40] Glenn's response to them sending him down there was funny. Maggie's reaction when T-dog killed it was very telling. It's obvious now that it was most likely because she hadn't seen that much because Herschel won't let them be killed. Could also just be because that thing was really gross.

[01:29:56] Yeah. Shane's conversation with Andrea. I felt that whole bit was about what happened when Otis and his with Otis and his relationships with Carl and Rick. More good acting by Bernthal. You can really see how all of this is really messing with his mindset. Yeah.

[01:30:11] Glenn getting flustered when Maggie catches him with the condoms is so precious. He's just adorable. Though I did find his disapproving look at Laurie kind of shitty. Mind your business, Glenn. I don't think he was disapproving. I think he just didn't want to get involved. Right?

[01:30:26] I think he was worried. I think he's just a bit like, Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Is he judgmental? Maybe. Yeah, maybe you're right. I hadn't thought about that. You could be right.

[01:30:37] Darryl giving the Cherokee rose to Carol and telling her the story tugged at my heart. I think this is the beginning of their incredible bond. It's obvious how much he's grown to care about her and Sophia.

[01:30:49] The passing of the Sheriff's hat. I thought it was cheesy on first watch, but found it sweet this time. I also thought it was cute how Carl was so proud to have been shot just like his dad. Yeah, I could see him feeling that way. They're bonding. He's in the club now.

[01:31:05] The response to that pregnancy test. Laurie took is the fastest I've ever seen. Yes. Laurie's regret in that final scene was strong. Favorite quotes when lowering Glenn into the well, Shane says, we're going to get you out of here in one piece. Glenn says, living piece, living part is important.

[01:31:23] Herschel, when he and Rick were talking about fatherhood said, some men don't earn the love of their sons. I don't see you having that problem. Oh, Maggie and Glenn on their right on their ride after their quote ride.

[01:31:36] Winky face. Maggie, don't spoil it. Glenn with a cheesy grin on his face. So it was good. I really like this episode. Definitely one of the better ones of this season.

[01:31:46] I like that message a lot. Thanks, Becky. I also like Rick's line to Carl about Laurie would probably prefer if they just had the same eyes in common rather than being shot. Our friend Karen Shee, who was on last week with us. We love you, Karen says, Hmm.

[01:32:05] The well Walker lives in infamy as it showcases Greg Nicotero's disgusting brilliance. That said, it felt like the show just needed to check off a zombie quotas. So they made our characters do something completely stupid. Andrea says they can't shoot the Walker list. It's viscera contaminates the water. But on rewatch, I noticed that Maggie protests is killing because she still believes the Walker can be rehabilitated. Hence the glances she exchanged with Herschel earlier.

[01:32:31] Speaking of Herschel, I never noticed how much I love conversations between Rick and Herschel. There's so much mutual grace and respect between them, even as they have different philosophies about faith in God. I look forward to more of Scott Wilson's wisdom and warmth.

[01:32:44] I squealed internally to see the seeds of so many beautiful relationships in this episode. Rick and Darryl have an interesting interaction to eight for Darryl's need to ingratiate himself to the group, even as Rick tells him he has nothing to prove. It's a defence mechanism that I know well, and the same external validation that sends Glenn to always put himself on the line.

[01:33:04] Lastly, I love the pharmacy scene with Glenn and Maggie. Yes, it's funny to see Glenn stammer and squirm, but the scene is more complex than that. It runs through different emotions in the span of five minutes. Firstly, this shows that Maggie has been sassy and assertive from day one. She's firing off questions that Glenn doesn't let him answer because she enjoys rising him like the predator playing with its prey before pouncing on him completely.

[01:33:25] But then her guard comes down. She's completely vulnerable with him admitting you're not the only one who's lonely. She's intimate with him before they even get physical. It's a beautiful little scene that shows the importance of human connection. Sadly, when Glenn dies in season seven, she still has all the fire, but the playfulness and light behind her eyes are gone.

[01:33:45] Extra trivia, the music score that's played in this scene gets a reprise when Glenn asks Maggie to marry him in season three.

[01:33:57] Oh, and a follow up to last week's Save the Last One. I forgot to say that it is one of my favourite episodes of the series because I think it's definitive TWD. It has stakes, it has action, it has character moments and philosophical musings. When my friends who have never seen TWD ask me which episode is accessible yet represents it best, I always think of Save the Last One. What about you guys? Thanks again for all you do, Jason and Lucy. Much love. Aww, much love to you too, Karen.

[01:34:24] Good question about quintessential Walking Dead episode. Yeah, that's accessible because I'd have to think about that. But because my favourite is still probably the trough, which I think is season five episode one. It's a lot, right?

[01:34:39] Yeah, I don't know if I'd send someone there right away. Because the thing about this show too is it gets more and more violent as it goes along, at least for the first like seven seasons. And so you kind of need to be desensitized that not thrown into the deep end of the pool.

[01:34:59] Maybe the pilot or something from season two. I think you might be onto something, Karen, with Save the Last One.

[01:35:06] Yeah, yeah, right. Maybe so. All right. Tej says, Jason, Lucy, I'm so excited to have seen this because I normally don't pick up on this type of artistry in film and TV. I also can't track the plot in musicals because I feel the song. I feel the song so much that I forgot to track the lyrics.

[01:35:26] Anyway, this shot he sent a picture. This shot is so beautifully composed and was the first we saw of Rick and Laurie after they argued about killing Carl for his own good. It's beautiful. Rick in the light, Laurie in the dark, close physically, but yet so far apart. Sorry, I didn't get my rewatching on time, but I'm caught up now.

[01:35:45] Yeah, this is just a scene of Rick and Laurie sitting close to each other, but they're kind of back to back and both looking disconnected. And he's in the light and she's in the dark. It's a nice catch. Really like it.

[01:36:00] All right. We got a few calls. Here's Gloria. Hi, Lucy and Jason. It's Gloria.

[01:36:07] This is for The Walking Dead season two episode four. Cherokee Rose. So good to see Beth. Oh my God. I was half broken when she when she died. That's horrible. But not this season. I'm so sweet of Kyle to be thinking of Sophia when he wakes up. Oh, honey, it's not going to be pretty. No.

[01:36:31] That was a very nice speech that Shane made, but the audience certainly knew he was lying his ass off. After watching it again, I can't believe I'm saying this because I never was too fond of Shane right from the beginning.

[01:36:46] But he was right to leave Otis. Granted, he wasn't right to shoot him, but it was pretty clear that only one of them was going to make it out. Talk about a conundrum.

[01:36:56] Hello, farmer's daughter. Glenn is adorable. Thanks, Laurie. I'd love to pick up pick you up a pregnancy test. Sure. No problem.

[01:37:06] The swimmer walk more like a bloater. Jesus, poor Glenn. He must have been petrified. I never noticed before that Glenn had peed his pants. Did anyone else see that? I don't blame him. I would have no Jesus.

[01:37:20] I didn't do that. Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, a woman after my own heart. So bold and straightforward. Something wrong with me. I have sex with you. She's the aggressor. I love it. I have been more women like Maggie. TMI guys. Sorry, not sorry, but I'm pretty bold myself.

[01:37:41] I agree. Oh, Glenn, Mr. All smiles to that is so funny. And Daryl shocked as he goes in the trailer after Carol cleaned it up. I would have been too. Then one of the sweetest moments. How much a difference a single flower can make. Love that story about the Cherokee Rose. Quite poetic of Daryl and cow.

[01:38:07] Sweetheart, such a talented kid. Love that ending with Rick. Of course, the reveal that Lori's pregnant kind of expected it though. That's it for this episode. You guys take care. Ciao.

[01:38:21] I always think Andy Lincoln and Chandler Riggs have really nice chemistry when they're on screen together. Oh yeah, me too. Absolutely. And he I think I already told the story, but when I brought Nico backstage with him at Walker Strucker and he just like knelt down and had a little conversation with him when he was like seven years old. He's just really good with kids.

[01:38:42] That's so cool. I'm obviously going to go back and see if Glenn peed his pants. So yeah, if you can pee your pants in front of a woman who then wants to have sex with you a few hours later, you're doing well. I'm going to try that.

[01:38:58] Yeah, see what happens. I'll report back next week. All right, here's Archmaester Renny.

[01:39:06] I remember the first time that I watched The Walking Dead. I was not yet a comic reader, so I didn't have any idea what was coming or what was different. And I was very caught up in the Shane versus Rick tension.

[01:39:25] And in season one, I was team Shane all the way. And in season two, I very much became team neither one of them.

[01:39:38] And with the strength of hindsight back in season one, as soon as Rick showed up, I hope I might have seen the clash coming between these two guys who were going to both try to be the alpha.

[01:39:56] And I hope that I would have had the foresight to ask a few people if they would like to go off with me and concentrate on the mechanics of survival rather than interpersonal drama.

[01:40:07] I think I would have asked Andrea and Amy and Jackie and Jim if they would like to go off with me. And Lucy, if you'd been on the show, I would have asked you if you would like to come to.

[01:40:20] Jason was actually on the show and he was a walker, so he wouldn't have been able to come with us. Anyway, enjoying your coverage of the rewatch.

[01:40:34] Uh, thanks. No, I, uh, I, uh, I was a walker in season two, so maybe it would have, maybe I would have saved me. I don't know. But, um, I, I like that. I also think you need drama in these shows.

[01:40:51] And if any of these characters would have went off and the camera followed them, then some shit would have happened. You know what I mean? Like, yes, this is about two guys who are like trying to be the alpha for sure.

[01:41:06] But I just think no matter what, if you're going to have a show like this, then people are going to do dumb things and there's going to be conflict and drama and trouble. Yeah, I know. I agree. It's going to be boring.

[01:41:19] Yeah, I don't know. I quite like the thought of Renny's spin-off group though. Yeah, they're just doing everything perfect and never have any problems. Yeah, I think it'd be great to be in Utopia 100%. I like British Bake Off, so maybe I would have been there.

[01:41:32] Yeah, I've also just remembered there's a whole scene in this episode we didn't talk about where Daryl finds like a little hidey hole that Sophia could be hiding in. But it's very inconsequential. But yeah, we didn't discuss that one, but it's there. So I'm nodding to it now.

[01:41:52] Yeah, no, I always love hearing from Renny and I'm very privileged to be part of that group. And Renny's going to come on later in the season, so that'll be cool. Amazing. So we have one more call from Randy. Ooh, Randy!

[01:42:08] Hey, Jason and Lucy. It's Randy here with another No Prize Call-In. Last time I called in, I was trying to explain why there are zombies in cars. I actually meant to explain why there were just corpses in the cars, but that bled into this week's thoughts. So I'll add it here, but I'm glad Jason you asked. It reminded me.

[01:42:31] What I want to explain this week is why there are variants early on in The Walking Dead. Now, I'm really going to be pushing my art degree to the limits here. But as a virus replicates, it has to outcompete the previous variant to become more transmissible. In doing so, it generally becomes less deadly. So the virus does a lot of trial and error until it's as transmissible as possible.

[01:42:59] I think initially, the zombie virus probably killed humans with fever and it probably cooked too much of their brain for the virus to take control of. So I think that explains why there are some corpses in cars that didn't reanimate. They got the strain of the virus that was just too strong.

[01:43:23] So in order to become more transmissible, the virus had to mutate. And in this mutation, the virus killed the people, but it reanimated the hosts. I think this time though, it left them with varying recognizable human traits like speed, human recognition and climbing, which explains the variants we see early on.

[01:43:47] However, these zombies are too fast and efficient. So they'd like eat an entire person whole instead of just biting, killing and transmitting the zombie disease. So the virus had to put a stop to that. I'm anthropomorphizing a little bit here. But in order to spread fully, it had to create a better transmitter of the virus.

[01:44:12] So I think it eventually lands on slow moving reanimated humans. They are just going to catch somebody, bite them, and that person's probably going to get away. They'll die and the virus will fully spread into them.

[01:44:28] And one last point I want to cover because I can hear somebody already saying it, but everybody's already infected. Why would it matter? Well, technically the zombies spread death, not the virus. And the virus flourishes in a dead corpse. So more corpses, more virus.

[01:44:52] That's why I think there are corpses in cars. I don't think that people just sat there smiling until they died. I think they got an early strain that was too strong and why I think there are some variants around.

[01:45:05] If there are any virus experts out there who want to refute this argument, I would just say, how many cat portraits have you painted? I think we know who the real expert is here. Thanks for the rewatch coverage. It's been great. Ta-ta.

[01:45:24] My brain kind of hurts thinking about that. Oh no, Jason, don't die. Don't let your brain overheat. No.

[01:45:32] Totally with Randy, you know, about the early virus being too strong. And then you brought up that everyone had the virus already and then, but it's replicating or that it needs death. And I don't, I don't totally understand that part.

[01:45:52] But I do. It is interesting to think about, yeah, viruses, they get less lethal because they're evolved to spread, to survive and replicate. That's what evolution is. Whichever genetic mistakes or accidents lead something to be more successful at replicating, surviving are of course the ones that propagate and become dominant.

[01:46:16] And so among viruses, the less lethal ones become more prominent because they're the ones that spread around more. But anyway, I'm going to let the audience ponder everything he just said. And so will I. Yeah, I'm absorbing it. I like to listen to it a couple more times.

[01:46:37] Yeah. That's Randy. That was very cool. I think you, um, that was money well spent on that art degree. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Creative thinking. I love it.

[01:46:49] All right. We have two more messages to read. One is about last week's episode, season two, episode three, save the last one from Dina. She says, my husband gave me a crossbow for Christmas. Yeah, at least it's not a vacuum cleaner. Anyway, I've named it Merle. Is that true? That's great.

[01:47:07] Amazing.

[01:47:08] The problem is that the gift has changed my focus during this rewatch. I now look at the show entirely from the crossbows point of view and I'm enjoying the evolution of its arrows bolts from season one through season 11. I don't blame the crossbow for not accompanying its owner to France. It didn't blame Darryl when Dwight tore it from Darryl's arms. It knew that Darryl would find it and they'd be together again. The riffs started when Darryl shot Leah in the head with a gun. Now that was betrayal.

[01:47:35] That was a betrayal to the crossbow, not to Leah. The crossbow wanted to shoot Leah in the head. So when it asked to go to France, when it was asked to go to France, it rebelled. No way was it going to shoot snails for Laurent. It asked the producers to write it off the show and they complied if it agreed to star in one episode in the Darryl Dixon series. Crossbow, by the way, also laughed at Darryl's itchy ass story.

[01:48:01] I think that this episode, save the last one, sees the first impactful moral test in the series. That was quite a shift in transition there. Total shift there. Yeah.

[01:48:12] I like the crossbow story. Save the last one sees the first impactful moral test in the series. We don't kill the living is one of the first rules set in season one. When Shane decides to kill Otis, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. Cause Rick had said that.

[01:48:25] We changed the size of kill Otis. He's breaking this rule and severing his creed as a law officer. There was little doubt that they both would have died at the school. If both died, Carl would most certainly die. And Otis does tell him to leave him. Shane does not. He stands by his code at that point.

[01:48:42] It would be a no brainer to kill off Otis. If he were untrustworthy, like one of the claimers viewers would probably cheer. Shane is our hero and he's saving Carl Otis. However, is kind, honorable and brave. And Shane gives him a horrible death without the mercy of killing him first. And Shane is not thinking of Carl at all in this moment. He's not sacrificing Otis to save a child. He kills Otis to save himself.

[01:49:06] This episode is about teetering on the brink of life and death. One should call die as Lori believes if war breaks out in this country, what I want my kids to live through the years of suffering that will unfold. Nope. My husband takes Rick stance. They have to carry the fire. He says, quoting from McCarthy's book, the road.

[01:49:25] I gotta read that. And ultimately Lori chooses to try to save Carl's life to Andrea no longer knows if she wants to live or die. Maybe it's habit. She says, I suspect most of us would stay alive out of habit, even if we're too miserable to want to live three Shane. Shane really does want to do the honorable thing in his actions. Prove this a couple of times. He considers Otis to be a partner, but then it's very clear that he's going to die. He chooses to live probably out of instinct.

[01:49:52] He is a survivor after all, but it's still murder. Maggie says that it isn't enough to pray. You must square things with yourself. The anguish and guilt Shane feels is evident due to Bernthal's fantastic acting. Maybe if he had told Rick the truth, he wouldn't have gone all Macbeth in the end. Yeah. Instead, the life festers until he squares it with himself by telling himself that he did it for Carl. This false belief eventually justifies his decision to murder Rick, but that's further down the line. And there's a lot that happens with Shane before then such great characters.

[01:50:22] Okay. I'm off to target practice with Merle. Wish me luck. I can barely lift the damn thing. Oh, Dina. That's amazing. I want a picture of Merle.

[01:50:32] Well, Dina. Yeah, I think we're in pretty stark disagreement on one thing, whether Shane did that to save himself or to save Carl. And you got, I think, one little detail wrong here. You said that Otis told Shane to go on and Shane said no, but actually it was Shane that told Otis to go on.

[01:50:53] I think they both do it at different points. Are you sure? I think so. I'd need to go back and double check, but I'm sure there's a point where Shane doesn't leave Otis where he could.

[01:51:05] Okay. I was looking specifically for that and didn't find it, but maybe I missed it. I can get it. Because I know for sure that Shane tells Otis, you go on without me and Otis says, I'm not going to leave here without you. Yeah, that's for sure.

[01:51:21] Even if Shane had told Otis, I mean, if Otis had told Shane to go on at some point still, the fact that Shane told Otis to go on meant that he was ready to sacrifice his life for Carl.

[01:51:36] One of us is going to get out of here alive. I am telling you to go. That's what Shane said to Otis and Otis said no. So to me, that says he's not just saving his own life. He's trying to keep Carl alive.

[01:51:50] And when Otis refused him, that's when Shane decided to make the decision himself, which is clearly a debatable thing to do. Kill someone in any context.

[01:52:01] I don't know where I stand on it. I'm going to think on it. I think it is a bit about Carl. It's a lot about Carl, but there's got to be a bit of lizard brain self-preservation there again. I think the guilt does eat at him.

[01:52:18] He really made a point to keep him alive so he would be thrashing around. Well, no, that still could be about his own survival, but to get that damn backpack off of him, you know, and he needed to get that. Yeah, you wouldn't want to waste that.

[01:52:33] He had enough conscious thought to really make a point that I need this backpack. You know, I got to save Carl. If it was purely just survival, then he could have just shot him and ran. You know, both can be true. I'm going to leave it at that.

[01:52:52] Yeah, it can be a part of it. But I just think the fact that he did express willingness to sacrifice himself is also a factor there too. You know, he told Otis to go on.

[01:53:05] But yeah. Okay, we got one more message. This one's about one cut of the dead, which me and Karen Randy covered a few weeks back.

[01:53:15] Amazing. And Jennifer McGinley has written in to say, I watched Final Cut last night with my cyber friend who lives in another country. It's a French remake of the fabulous One Cut of the Dead reviewed not long ago and probably my most favorite film ever.

[01:53:27] I didn't watch One Cut of the Dead in anticipation of the podcast as it's not on any of my platforms, but I found it on YouTube last night.

[01:53:34] Yasss! Gathered Doritos and Christmas chocolates and stuff to settle down and watch it, by which time my cyber mate who refuses to watch anything zombie or subtitled had discovered the French remake and it was on BBC iPlayer and I talked him into watching that one.

[01:53:47] First 30 minutes or so the chat went, this is merde. How can you enjoy this shite? This is the worst thing I've ever seen. I don't know you. I kept saying wait, wait, you'll love it.

[01:53:56] Don't know if he loved it, but he did rate it. I loved it though, almost as much as the OG. Very well done. For anyone familiar with these films, I was moved more with the director's relationship with his daughter in the original.

[01:54:07] They spent more time investing and showing that their relationship was deteriorating. Therefore, the ending was so much more emotional. But other than that, brilliant remake. If you haven't watched it, please do so. Happy New Year and all that, by the way.

[01:54:20] Have we said Happy New Year? Happy New Year! Happy New Year everybody! Happy New Year to you Jennifer!

[01:54:26] And thanks for suggesting that. I think maybe your suggestion really kind of pushed us over to actually cover that movie, Jennifer. I'd been thinking about it for a while, but I saw that you said you were into it. So I think that's one reason why we did it.

[01:54:39] Yay! Thank you. It's a great one. Alright, that is our show. Episode 559. Thanks so much for listening everybody. That was fun. Next episode is The Walking Dead Season 2, Episode 5, Chupacabra.

[01:54:57] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about your own experiences with the chupacabras, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com I remember not liking that one either, but hopefully it'll be the same as this week. New year, new perspectives!

[01:55:16] This episode is made possible by Patreon supporters like Lisa Walker, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabasi. So thank you so much to Lisa.

[01:55:27] I think I mentioned this last week, but I've been putting these episodes out a little bit earlier for Patreon people and also with no ads. Yay! And by the way, if you do go to podcastica.com, there's a bunch of shows running right now to check out.

[01:55:44] I know that the From What Is From cast, they're getting ready to do a rewatch of the first two seasons of that show.

[01:55:54] If you haven't gotten into that show, I definitely recommend it. It is like a horror movie as a show, but it's a lot like Lost. It's very good. Also, Kirk Manley and his friend Lenny just covered all of What If... Season 2. Two episodes per podcast.

[01:56:11] Oh, we just started that! Yeah! And Kirk and Lenny are two old school geeky comic book guys. They're fun to listen to. It's like you're listening into a conversation with two geeks talking to each other about comics.

[01:56:26] They know all the details of the comics that the things came from. And because that show came out once a day for nine days and they just cranked out these podcasts, I don't think it got a lot of listens.

[01:56:36] But if you're just now getting around to watching What If... I recommend going in and checking it out. It's really fun. That sounds amazing. All right. That's our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit, Alex Kruger. The Jiggy Jar Jar Dude.