560: "Chupacabra" (TWD S2E5 Rewatch)

[00:00:00] Remember the name of that waitress at the Dairy Queen, the one we were in high school? I know you, Shane, well enough to know that there is only one sure-fire way of engaging you in a conversation.

[00:00:20] That is to start asking you about girls you did in high school. I don't want to, but I'm willing to do it if that's what it takes. Mary Ann. I told you about her. In excruciating detail. Excruciate my ass.

[00:00:35] I used to live for those details back in the day. I was impressionable, and I may have been living vicariously through you. Why wouldn't you? My impressive list of accomplishments. I was an artist in his prime. Protégé. You mean prodigy. Maybe.

[00:00:56] Prodigy, what you call a young high school stud banks 30-year-olds on the regular. What 30-year-old were you banging in high school? PE teacher. Mr. Daniel. Mrs. Kelly. The girl's volleyball coach? Wasn't she married? Oh, come on. You know what I just remembered?

[00:01:17] Why I never asked you about this stuff. We talked about your high school love life then, huh? Yeah, well that's a short conversation. It may even already be over. Isn't that right? It was Holly, right? Nope, that was me too. And then there was Sheila.

[00:01:34] That's the one you lied to me about. I never lied about Sheila. I just got mixed up about what the base is, man. I would just say, you know, a home run that usually means a sexual act. That's intercourse. Yeah, I realize that now.

[00:01:45] I think what you did was more like a ground rule double or something. I'm aware of the judge's ruling. Hey, Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is the cast of us episode 560.

[00:02:29] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season two, episode five, Chupacabra. Chupacabra, which is a real thing, maybe. We have a special guest today. It's our friend Dina. Welcome to the podcast, Dina. Glad to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:02:46] Dina's been writing some really thoughtful, fun, interesting messages. If you've been listening to us, you've heard us read those. And so Dina has a lot to live up to because she's got to be just as smart as all of us. That's evil. We've got live Dina. Live Dina.

[00:03:03] Oh dear. I'm not as funny in real life. Oh, darn it. You're going to be great. I'm excited. I wanted to know before we get into it, just sort of how you came to The Walking Dead and to the podcast.

[00:03:19] The Walking Dead, I started from the beginning watching it and that weekly, you know, you just couldn't wait for that weekly episode. And then the podcast, I don't remember. I told you in a letter, my best friend was urging me to watch the whole series.

[00:03:36] I dropped off season nine. So I did. And I think I was searching for interviews and I came across you that way. And I just started it and loved it. And it's such a great podcast. Thanks.

[00:03:51] So you've been watching since the very first episode, you watched the pilot when it aired? I watched the pilot. And then I, like I said, I gave up in season nine, right after Rick died. That jolt of the time jump just messed me up. That's right. Yeah.

[00:04:09] Karen lasted a little longer than that, but not too much longer. I'm glad I came back to it. You are? Yeah. Did you like the final two seasons? Yeah, I did. I loved The Whisperers.

[00:04:21] I liked The Commonwealth because it was so jarring and it was a sad reflection of the world we live in. Yeah, I know. That's what I liked about it too. Before we get into this week's episode, I have a new segment idea that I didn't tell Lucy about.

[00:04:39] I don't know if we'll actually do the segment right now, but I want to introduce it just in case and follow up on it later. But it's what lesson do we learn from whatever character? So I would say a character and you'd say what lesson we learned.

[00:04:51] So for example, Sherry reminds us to be nice to horses. Dwight reminds us to be careful ironing, you know, things like that. Yeah. Carol reminds us that flowers are beautiful. And dangerous. And dangerous. Dina, you think about it. Maybe you'll have one at the end or anytime. Okay.

[00:05:19] You could pop in with one. But in the meantime, we'll go ahead with The Walking Dead season two, episode five, Chupacabra. So Dina, you're the guest of honor. In general, how was it to go back and look at this episode?

[00:05:32] Oh, I mean, Daryl took his shirt off sort of. So you saw his arms. That's reason enough to watch. But I do enjoy this episode. I love the symbolism behind it. It's just a fun, good episode that sets up everything really.

[00:05:52] In my head when he has his accident, he's got a crossbow bolt through his side. He rips his sleeves off to make a tourniquet. In my head I heard, bow-ticka-bow-wow. What about you, Lucy? Oh, it was great.

[00:06:04] I had a moment, Dina, where I was like, why is Daryl wearing shirt sleeves? And I'm like, because he's going to rip them off. Exactly. He regressed only to go right back to where he was. It's almost like a Daryl Bottle episode in a lot of ways.

[00:06:24] Like I was looking through my notes, just to scene set for listeners. I'm not at home at the moment. I'm traveling. So I'm in a random hotel room near a Scottish loch and I'm on minimal podcast equipment.

[00:06:35] So instead of my notebook, I have a picture of the notes in my notebook on my phone that I'm referring to. So there'll be a bit more, I can't read what I wrote than usual. So enjoy that.

[00:06:46] But when I was looking through my notes earlier, yeah, I was like, most of what's good about this episode is Daryl centric, I think. His character is really building, which is fun. And you get to see the Dixon brothers together, kind of. So that's interesting.

[00:07:02] Yeah, I remember being glad that Michael Rooker came back for this. I think you're right that the Daryl part is the best part, but I liked the rest of it too. And I just found it all pretty enjoyable.

[00:07:18] And I remember this episode being one of the ones I didn't like as much, but I'm liking season two more, I think just because I am so attached to the characters now. And I realized that this show is all about character more than anything else.

[00:07:34] And so when you look at it through that lens, it's really good to just dive in and get deeper with the characters. Definitely. Very much so. So we'll go on to our points. Dina, do you want to go first? Do you want one of us to go first?

[00:07:51] We can go first. One of you go first. And I'll jump in. Lucy, why don't you go first? My first point is, have you ever seen a chupacabra? And if so, where and what did it look like?

[00:08:01] I didn't even bother looking it up this time because I figured one of you guys would. What the hell is it? Chupacabra. I don't know either. Someone will know. Dina knows. What is it? Yeah, I do. Because my husband goes around the house saying chupacabra sometimes.

[00:08:17] And I don't even know how that started. But it's a South American creature, cryptid. It's called the goat sucker, I think. And it goes around sucking the blood of livestock. It's interesting that Daryl mentioned it but didn't tell us the legend of the chupacabra

[00:08:36] as if everyone would know. I guess they figured we would go look it up, right? Yeah. Or maybe they're native to Georgia. They're like common there. Oh, it could be. Yeah, southern states for sure. Maybe. But yeah, it's not real. It might be.

[00:08:57] Did you hear that back in October, I think it was in Brazil, some hunters claimed that they shot and killed the chupacabra. The? Like the one? Well, not the one. One of them. But yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:12] And they ate it before they had a chance to take a picture of it. They took a picture of it. But most people think it's a petrified howler monkey. Oh, wow. Yeah, you'll have to look it up.

[00:09:24] We once went on a road trip from Canada down to Colorado to actually see Lara Willyswink and Claire Retro, who listened to the podcast. And I have this habit of if I'm not driving, I will instantly fall asleep. So Jason, have fun on our road trip this summer.

[00:09:45] I am not good company. I will fall asleep in a car. And I put on an audio book and it was the lore guide to like mythical beasts of the North Americas. And I think the chupacabra was one of them.

[00:09:58] And I woke up when we arrived at our hotel and Peter looked so stressed. He's like, get out of the car right now and run to the hotel. And I was like, what the fuck?

[00:10:06] And he's like, you fell asleep just at the bit that was about like beasts by the highway. So I've had to drive for three hours through Wyoming reading about all the horrible mythical beasts that can be found on the highway in the dark.

[00:10:18] And I'm terrified to come to this hotel, please. And I was like, so I don't know if he saw a chupacabra, but I will ask when I'm back home. Let us know. Do you know all about the Loch Ness Monster? I do.

[00:10:32] Obviously, that's an important part of Scottish education. Yeah, it's very real. Very real. Definitely a thing that is real. That's all I can say. I'm sworn to secrecy. My actual point is probably the interactions between Daryl and Merle because I thought they were really well done.

[00:10:54] And I was trying to remember if I realised that Merle was not real the first time I watched this because they do a really good job of keeping his hand hidden, because that's the tell is if he has two hands, he must be a vision.

[00:11:09] Because obviously we know that he's cut his hand off and they hold that right till the end of their first interaction. Does he have two hands when they do finally show him? Yes. Oh, OK.

[00:11:20] Yeah, I think that's the giveaway because they kind of have a little bit of a musical swell when you see that. But you get a sense of Merle and Daryl's relationship. And I think it's interesting because there is a kind of love there between Merle and

[00:11:37] Daryl and it's a kind of toxic love in a lot of ways. But Merle says, you know, he was the one to look after Daryl when he was little. He was the only one looking out for him.

[00:11:47] He's clearly protective of his little brother, but is also very, very kind of demeaning towards him. And it's interesting to see them revisit the fact that Daryl has stopped looking for Merle. It's like Merle is a projection of Daryl's conscience about not looking for him anymore.

[00:12:07] But Daryl does kind of come back to Merle and say, all you had to do was wait. Like Merle was hotheaded and ran off. You know, they did come back for him quickly.

[00:12:17] And that made me understand a little bit better why Daryl is perhaps not carrying a lot of guilt about not going back for Merle anymore. Why not? Well, because he feels that Merle left.

[00:12:28] He could have hung around and waited for them, but he went off and did his own thing. Well, that's like pretty dubious because of course you're going to get off of a roof and go somewhere else.

[00:12:40] You know, it's not like you're like, how dare you Merle not stay there on that hot roof and wait for us? But they also assume that he stole the van as well. I mean, I don't know if Merle went with the other van. He may have.

[00:12:53] I firmly believe he probably did steal the van. They should have had a meeting place set up. And then if Daryl went to the meeting place and Merle wasn't there, then I could see him being mad. You know? Yeah.

[00:13:06] The other thing I thought was interesting is, so we talked last week and the week before about T-Dog having this kind of paranoid outburst on the highway that we were like, well, actually, you know, some of that is rooted in truth and fear.

[00:13:19] But we also see, I think Merle is kind of a projection of Daryl's subconscious here and he is talking about how the group perceive him, talking about how they will perceive Daryl as being redneck trash. They ain't your kin. Nobody's going to care about you except me.

[00:13:35] And we also see a classic Merle use of the N-word talks about, you know, they're all Democrats and just, you know, very scathing about the people that Daryl is now part of that group. And it seems to spur Daryl on. Shane's a Republican. Yeah, I know.

[00:13:54] I was like, Shane's a Democrat? You remember that Merle? Okay. And the last thing I'll say from that first interaction is that I loved at the start when Merle starts talking to Daryl and Daryl just kind of goes, shitty day bro.

[00:14:14] And I'm like, yeah, it's a shitty day. Well done. You did just fall on your own arrow. So yeah, that first interaction between the two of them I thought was awesome. And I know we will all have a lot to say about that.

[00:14:24] So I don't want to monopolize the mic. So that will be my first point there. Sweet. Dina, do you want to follow up on that or go to some thoughts? No, that's definitely my top point as well.

[00:14:38] And I think the Chupacabra theme goes through the whole episode and not just with Daryl. But in this particular case, I think Chupacabra is negative self-talk. He's saying he believes about himself that isn't true. The same thing that Lucy just said, he's worthless.

[00:14:59] They'll wipe you off like dog shit on their shoe, blah, blah, blah. And he doesn't have a lot of self-confidence. And like you pointed out, I think Jason in the last episode, Rick pretty much tells him you're off the hook. You don't owe us anything.

[00:15:15] So that excludes him. So he doesn't hear anything but that. And even in this episode at the start, when Daryl suggests that he go take the horse and look for her, Rick says that's a great idea. And I think that's Rick starting to realize that he's valuable.

[00:15:33] But Daryl just doesn't hear that. He considers himself useless and worthless. And we all know he was abused. And whether his mom loved him or not, she died in that house fire. Do you remember them talking about that? Oh shit. Was that in still?

[00:15:52] Is that what the episode's called with the moonshine? No, it's in the prison, I think after Laurie dies. Oh no. And he's commiserating. Yeah, you'll see it. I mean, of course it'll come up. It'll come up. And then of course he gets there and he's stampeded.

[00:16:17] I don't know why they had so many people stampeding him. And Andrea shoots him. So frigging Andrea, man. Yes. So I guess that's my main point. It gives understanding his background. Absolutely. I love it. So I feel like this is a great Daryl episode.

[00:16:39] As we said, it's a bit of a Daryl thirst trap episode. He's a brooding loner. He just needs love. He's out being heroic, looking for this lost girl. I mean, it's all true. And then the thing about ripping his sleeves off and everything, exposing his muscular arms.

[00:16:56] But also it deepens the character so much that yeah, his struggle is feeling like he doesn't belong, that he's not worth caring about. Then when Jimmy laughs at him for believing in the chupacabra that you can sell that triggers

[00:17:11] him and he kind of lashes out as we've seen him do. And then Merle later, which I would say Merle personifies Daryl's inner critic. Same thing as negative self-talk. By the way, if your husband goes around saying chupacabra and it's negative self-talk, then

[00:17:27] he's like going around the house saying negative self-talk. I'll remember that. But anyway, ghost Merle says they're laughing at you behind your back. And this is all just what Daryl on some level thinks.

[00:17:43] I guess it's kind of similar maybe to T-Dog by the side of the road being delirious, you know. But with Daryl, I think it's more towards the surface. All of these thoughts. We got Daryl's classic line, people want in hell want slurpees here when he said he wanted

[00:18:02] a gun. But then when ghost Merle comes up and says, why don't you pull that arrow out dummy? Daryl smiles at that, which kind of goes to what you were saying, Lucy, about how they have this complicated relationship. He's glad to hear it.

[00:18:19] And he's so used to it. I mean, if Merle didn't say something toxic, Daryl would think it was weird. Like what's wrong, bro? And even when he's not delirious yet, when he's just trying to get up the hill and having

[00:18:34] trouble and he says, don't be such a pussy to himself. Well, that's an unfortunate turn of phrase. But also I thought he's internalized Merle's voice here. You know, maybe his father's voice. Yeah, because Merle's called him Darylina at this point and stuff like he's teasing

[00:18:49] him about being a girl, you know? Weak. Yeah. I mean, that's in his view weak. I'm not saying he's weak. But then yeah, Merle's playing on Daryl's fears that they don't even want him, that he's an outsider. He says, you're nothing but a freak, redneck trash.

[00:19:06] One of these days they're going to scrape you off their heel like you was dog shit. And I'm thinking, you don't know Merle. He's going to be one of the most valuable people in this group and eventually probably the last man standing. So you're totally wrong here.

[00:19:20] And then when Merle resolves into a Zed and wakes Daryl up, that was such a great moment. And then he just destroys it with so much aggression. I mean, maybe that's just what calls for it because his life's in danger.

[00:19:32] But also maybe it's a reaction or a rejection to what Merle just said on some level. I'd like to think so. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And then at the end, Carol brings Daryl dinner and kisses his head.

[00:19:46] And he's feeling doubt about whether he belongs or anyone cares for him. And then he gets this. So it's just more cementing of this bond between the two of them. And then she says, you did more for my little girl today than her own daddy ever did in

[00:20:01] his whole life. I'm gonna start crying. He says, I didn't do anything Rick or Shane wouldn't have done. And she goes, I know you're every bit as good as them every bit.

[00:20:10] And I'm just like, yeah, at the time when I heard her say this back then, I think I was probably like, well, that was really nice of her. But now I'm like, she is so fucking right.

[00:20:21] He is as good as I mean, better than Shane and every bit as good as Rick, at least maybe better than Rick too. And now we know that. And so it's just beautiful to see the seeds of that, their relationship and her supportiveness.

[00:20:34] It reminds me years later when he says to her, you know, you're my best friend. And she says, what are you 10? You know? Yeah. But it's just like so much more meaningful in hindsight to see this interaction that it was to me back then.

[00:20:49] And I probably thought it was nice back then too. But now it's even more. Yeah, it's more impactful. And she's a mother and she's mothering him in that moment. And they definitely become equals, but in the early days, she nurtures him.

[00:21:06] And I think there was an episode they're searching for Beth. She says something about herself and he says, what do you see when you look at me? Or I might be messing this up. And she said, I used to see a boy and now I see a man.

[00:21:24] I think that's when they start really equalizing. But we have a while to go, so I have to watch along. I think as well, there's like this tug with Daryl in this episode where he comes, it's almost like a baptism.

[00:21:38] Like he goes into the woods, meets with Merle and kind of reengages his feral Dixon and like takes the ears and, you know, like binds his own wound. And he looks like the one thing I will say in favor of Andrea is he looks a lot more like

[00:21:53] a walker than I remember him looking. So I'm like, oh, OK. Yeah. All right. I mean, Rick and Shane were right there a few feet away and thought he was a walker and he could have been, you know, they wait for him to talk and said something. Yeah.

[00:22:06] He should talk sooner. Yeah. But he's embracing that feral energy. But that that Carol just intervenes at the right moment, I think, to to soften that and prevent him taking a really different direction.

[00:22:19] And it's something I think we come back to in season three when the real Merle comes back and the Dixon brothers go out on their own and Daryl just doesn't fit anymore. It's just not him. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:30] I'm glad you said that because I wasn't quite sure what the point of the ear necklace was. And it was great because it took what otherwise could have been just a straightforward, maybe a little bit sappy episode about Daryl.

[00:22:42] I don't really think that, but a little bit and made it like a little edgy, like, whoa, you know, but it really is about him flirting with just being like, I'm a man of the woods. I don't need these people kind of vibe. Right. Yeah.

[00:22:56] I loved Rick's kind of harassed older brother. Like, we're just going to not tell Herschel about that. Like, oh, I'm going to keep that to ourselves. And it's a wise move. It's a wise move. Yeah. But why his pocket? Why his pocket?

[00:23:10] Why didn't he just throw them down? That was weird. Yeah. Well, he might want it later. Yeah. He's pretty messed up. He has just been shot. He might want his comfort necklace later, I guess. Maybe his father gave him this. No.

[00:23:25] But the only other thing is I just thought it was really funny that Daryl was on shrooms when he saw the chupacabra. I kind of like that. Oh, that was a good detail. So that's all my Daryl stuff. And I'll have that as my first point.

[00:23:43] So, Lucy, do you want to go next? Let's do this. All right. That cold open. I don't have a whole heap to say about it. I spent a lot of time thinking about why they showed this cold open in this episode.

[00:23:58] And I've chosen to interpret it as probably the first night that Shane and Laurie hooked up. That's my reasoning. But obviously we see Carol, Laurie, Shane, Ed and the kids on the highway. It's nice to see Sophia and Carl together again.

[00:24:14] Carol offers friendship to Laurie and Shane by offering them MRAs and Ed is a shit, as I've said in my notes, and prevents her from doing that. Sophia talks to Carl about his dad seeming nice, which is Shane and Carl points out he's not my dad. My dad.

[00:24:31] And he pauses a little bit and says, died. And then Laurie and Shane witnessed the napalm bombing of, I think, Atlanta. Although I have to say it didn't look that napalm bombed when Rick was in it. But anyway, right. And yeah, the Laurie is clearly very stricken.

[00:24:49] She kind of turns to Shane and he pulls her in and holds her close. And I just got the sense from that scene that they hadn't yet crossed the line, but that the line was going to be closer after that particular experience.

[00:25:01] And then of course we open with Laurie having slept in finding out that she's pregnant. So yeah, what did you both think of the cold open? The same. I think that hinted at the bond that Shane and Laurie were going to have and part of

[00:25:17] the reason he started being the protector, which makes sense, but why he also starts deluding himself at some point that he's the only one that can save them. I think that was the main point.

[00:25:29] I'm not sure, but that seems like the most likely reason why they had that. Aside from it just being kind of cool to see. Cool yet shocking to see what happened to Atlanta. I think this is the last flashback we get.

[00:25:45] We have this one and we have Laurie finding. Maybe we're really just seeing the story of Laurie and Shane's relationship in these flashbacks because we see the flashback to the Rick news and the flashback to this and then that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's really a good point.

[00:25:58] I mean, I was thinking, you know, we were also going to have a flashback showing what happened with that tank in Atlanta, but then AMC wouldn't give Darabont the budget for it. So that wouldn't quite go with the whole Shane-Laurie theory unless they were involved somehow.

[00:26:18] But imagine that'd be funny. But it does make me think if Darabont had stayed on, maybe there would have been more flashbacks. I remember after Glenn Mazar became showrunner, I used to listen to this podcast where they would interview writers and showrunners of TV shows.

[00:26:35] And Glenn Mazar was on there with Scott Gimple, who was just a writer at the time. And the interviewer asked about flashbacks. And I think Gimple was into flashbacks, but Mazar kind of shut him down and wasn't into it. Interesting.

[00:26:49] And so maybe after this, Mazar kind of set the tone for not having flashbacks on the show. And by the time Gimple came on, they just weren't really doing them, you know? It gone too far. Yeah. Yeah. I had just a few notes about this segment.

[00:27:06] I forgot we saw Sophia there. So it was like, oh, there's Sophia. Carl looks noticeably older here than he did in season one, even though it's the same time or, you know, even earlier. But what are you going to do? Yeah, kids.

[00:27:21] I wondered if Bernthal was wearing a wig. I think so. Oh, yeah, he must have been. I think so. I wondered if this is when Carol, Ed and Sophia met Laurie, Carl and Shane because they were

[00:27:35] stuck on the road together and got out of their cars and just struck up a chat. You know, I don't think we know for sure when they met. No, but that sounds like a viable point. Yeah, could be.

[00:27:48] I also thought Ed was a total dick, but also that he had a point. So maybe it wasn't, you know, it was how he said it, not what he was saying. Like maybe Carol could have said, hey, we have something that Carl could have and given

[00:28:01] him one of those. Not like we got a whole bunch of these, you know, when you're not sure how much time you're going to have and who you're going to trust and everything. Maybe that's me being selfish. I don't know.

[00:28:13] But and then just the military bombing Atlanta reminds me of The Last of Us, the whole scientist in Jakarta, not to get too deep into it because people might not have seen that. That part of the show and also major Resident Evil vibes.

[00:28:30] If you play those games, you know, there's oh yeah, this is often the reaction. You play those games? I do not. But you know, family and friends do. Yeah, there are always cities being blown up to get rid of all the zombies.

[00:28:45] Did they do that in that Will Smith? I am legend as well. Or did they just isolate people? Oh, but you know what? I totally don't have it in the news. So I'm going to say it now.

[00:28:57] But we just found out that Danny Boyle and Alex Garland, who wrote, well Alex Garland wrote, Danny Boyle directed 28 Weeks Later are now in talks. I think it is a Greenlit? I think it is to do 28 Years Later. I think it's Greenlit, yeah. Oh great.

[00:29:13] Do you think they'll get the OGs back? I'm so stoked. I don't know. Oh, I actually know because 28 Weeks Later was a different crew, wasn't it? Yeah. I don't think it matters. I don't really care. I don't even remember who they were. Cillian Murphy, did he?

[00:29:29] Cillian Murphy, I think in one ending he does. Okay. Yeah, I think the one that they went with he did. I'm excited because 28 Days Later is one of my favorite zombie movies ever. So anyway, anything else about the flashback before we move on? Not for me. Nope.

[00:29:52] Dina, why don't you go? All right. My second note was again, the chupacabra reality versus imagination. And I had it for every character pretty much, but I'd like to actually Andrea versus Carol, the comparison, which I don't know, I might be imagining. So Andrea is not facing reality.

[00:30:17] And I have to say, I really don't like Andrea's character. So I'm trying to be generous. But I think, well, I know and you know, before the whole apocalypse, she was a lawyer. She was independent. She could fish. She's not used to being not in control.

[00:30:38] And now she has no control and she's scared and she wants to protect herself and grow and learn. And it's great. And she's absolutely right. And she's starting to learn with Shane.

[00:30:50] However, all she does is bitch about not having a gun, how she doesn't want to do women's work. So she pretty much does nothing and she's useless. And then, of course, she you know, they all tell her don't shoot, don't shoot. Put the gun down.

[00:31:06] I can do it. She reminds me of a teenage boy who just gets his license and then thinks he knows everything about driving. So she endangers the whole group as a result, right? It's not just Darryl. She could hit any one of those guys.

[00:31:24] And then you have Carol, who is facing reality. She is doing she knows her limits and she's doing what she can to help everybody using her current capabilities. And we all know what Carol becomes and her capabilities grow and grow and grow. But she stays in the present.

[00:31:45] And just we see her grow more in season three and so on and so on. So I kind of just comparing them as women who started off in the apocalypse at the same level, weak and not sure what to do.

[00:32:02] That's, I guess, my notes on reality versus non-reality. I really like that. Lucy, I'm curious because what do you make of the whole thing with Andrea? Oh no, I'm completely with Dina on this. Like I want to root for her, but what she does is so stupid.

[00:32:24] Like not…I can understand the urge to be like, you can't tell me what to do. But also like the consequences could have been so dire, so dire that it's just aggravating.

[00:32:36] And she really is posturing up there on the RV and she kind of gets a bump back to earth through her error. And then it's quite interesting because Dale kind of tries to make a joke about Annie Oakley and she's like, I'm not having it, Dale.

[00:32:50] I'm doing something serious. But then he's the one who kind of comforts her when she's at her lowest ebb, when she's like, shot Daryl. And he's like, you know, we've all wanted to shoot Daryl, which admittedly is a great line.

[00:33:02] But she…it's pride before a fall, I think. And I think Carol is being very present and very…she's doing what she can with a shitty situation and that's in some ways more admirable. What do you think, Jason?

[00:33:17] I think Dale…I don't know if I thought this back then, but that comment, you know, don't be too hard on yourself. We've all wanted to shoot Daryl is funny, but it doesn't age well since we've all come to love Daryl even more.

[00:33:35] So it felt a little different this time. Like, what are you talking about? But it's still funny. But he kind of used Andrea's guilt as a way to get in with her. I thought, oh, you're an opportunist, buddy. A little bit. A little bit.

[00:33:50] But I…as far as Andrea, I feel a little less harshly towards her for the most part. I don't blame her for wanting to have a gun and not be relegated to what's traditionally considered women's work. Fuck that, you know?

[00:34:04] And she's up on the RV being a lookout just like Dale does most of the time. I mean, we have seen other things too, but yeah. So they need that. But when she saw what she thought was a walker and called it out, that's cool.

[00:34:19] Like, that's what a lookout should do. When she wanted to shoot it and they kept saying, don't, I was like, why don't you tell her? Why not? Like, I presume they don't want her to do it because noise would draw more walkers, but I'm not even sure.

[00:34:32] They just go, don't do it! Or upsetting Herschel. That was the other thing I wanted to say. It's not clear, right? And they go running out. And she was a good enough shot that she hit him from pretty far away.

[00:34:45] But I guess when all those other people were close, yeah, maybe they would have been in danger. I don't know. I just think this is definitely the first moment where it's like, okay, if you weren't sure whether you liked Andrea or not, now we know.

[00:35:01] We don't like her anymore. And I think it's kind of weird for the writers to be like, all right, let's have this woman who doesn't want to be relegated to quote women's work and wants to just be a person

[00:35:13] and have a role in protecting everyone and then have her really fuck up. And what does that say? Oh, you see what happens when a woman wants to step up? That's kind of what it feels like. Like, why would they write that?

[00:35:24] Well, I feel really, really similarly about when Laurie drives and flips that car. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's been criticism that the show is harder on women and in season one, I wasn't I didn't totally agree with that.

[00:35:45] It was more nuanced. But in this instance, I do feel like that. I'm like, why? Why would you write that? Yeah, absolutely. I think the show goes on. I was just watching an episode last night much later on. And I just realized there are so many badass woman.

[00:36:00] And what a great example for kids. But that's also jumping way ahead. And to go back to Andrea, I still hate her. But Shane, especially with his shirt off Mr. Macho Man best let us handle it.

[00:36:15] And he might as well have added little lady at the end of that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But at least Shane, I'm always like, I think of a contrary thing, but I don't disagree with that at all.

[00:36:27] But he's very ready to train anyone who wants to be trained, including Andrea to shoot, you know? Yes. So at least there's that. It's an interesting nod to the comics because in the comics, Andrea is like a dead shot. She's so good. Like she's amazing.

[00:36:40] So it's also quite annoying that she has crap aim. And that was great because Daryl lives. But yeah, it's quite funny. I mean, for that far, that's that's a pretty good that she even hit him. Still pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. She's Annie Oakley after all. Yeah.

[00:36:56] I think that she had pretty good aim in that, but I guess maybe not the best name. Okay. Whose turn is it? Is my turn? Yes. Okay. So I'm going to talk about Shane some more Shane's progression.

[00:37:08] Like back when we first watched this and I watched it like three times because back then on the podcast, we would watch it and then we would do a rewatch and then we would watch it again before the next season came out.

[00:37:19] So I felt the season dragged and I still do a little, but now I see it a lot as just the buildup of Shane turning against Rick and they want to really have that be earned

[00:37:34] and make it because they take so much time with it that when it does happen, maybe it's a little more believable and a lot more dramatic than if they'd rushed it. So there's a lot of the seeds of that in this episode. I think Rick already senses it.

[00:37:52] He's trying to connect with Shane by talking about all the women that Shane was with, the girls he was with in high school. And I'm sure you guys both probably hated that conversation. I thought it was a fun conversation. I thought it was fun.

[00:38:05] I thought it was quite funny. Oh, okay. Yeah. Good. All right. I shouldn't assume. I think Rick is clearly quite bad at kind of, I don't know, talking shit about girls like as a ground rule double or something like, yeah, that was funny.

[00:38:22] And he was so innocent back in the day. Yeah. And he's like, now I remember why I never wanted to talk to you about any of this. Yeah. But the main point of it is Rick is trying to connect in a familiar way and Shane rejects

[00:38:35] that because he feels the world's changed and he feels himself changing along with it. And he says, we shouldn't be talking about this stuff. That life's gone. Everyone in it. We're all old folk. All the people in our stories are all dead.

[00:38:48] And then he says, nostalgia is like a drug. It keeps you from seeing things the way they are when you've got people depending on you. I mean, that sentence, if you, we realize what it, what nostalgia means to me is my relationship with you, Rick.

[00:39:01] That's what Shane, I don't know if he's thinking that consciously, but it's what it is. It's what it means. And people depending on me means your wife and your son. And he, he pretty much says that later to Lori.

[00:39:12] The only thing I care about now in this world is you and Carl. Didn't mention Rick there, you know, and, and all his conversations with Rick are about you're too soft. You're not, you're not, um, you need to let that little girl go.

[00:39:26] Even if she is alive, I think he suggests you, your family should be more important to you right now. You should make the hard decision to let it go so that you can go conserve your supplies and get to Fort Benning.

[00:39:37] You know, he's just thinking like Rick, you're not, you're, you're too, you're too much of a bleeding heart for other people at the expense of your own family, which is kind of a criticism that you've had of Rick, uh, Lucy.

[00:39:49] And so I think you're on Shane's side here. Oh my God. Yeah, that's exactly right. Oh, I thought it did line up with what you're saying where he's like, Rick is quick to go

[00:40:00] off and save somebody else and not deal with what's happening at home is a little bit like maybe I'm more in line with Shane than what, what I realized, but yeah. Okay. I'll take it. I don't know. I don't want to put that.

[00:40:14] I just, I just thought about that. Like, Oh, that's a little bit like what it's not exactly right. I think you're saying that Rick does that because he doesn't want to have to deal with what's at home.

[00:40:24] And I think Shane is more just like you're too, you care about other people too much and it puts your people, you know, in danger because you're spreading yourself too thin, which is sort of similar but not exactly the same. You know, I think so.

[00:40:37] And I think with Rick, it's not that he doesn't want to, it's that he can't like, I think he finds it too difficult. I don't think he's like, Oh, would rather not today. I think it's more he's, he freezes, you know, he freezes up and that paralyzes him.

[00:40:51] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's very much his thing is about whether he's, he's just sort of in turmoil about whether he's making the right decisions and stuff like that. But focusing in on Shane, he's just like, yeah, you need to like this whole thing with Otis.

[00:41:06] He realizes, yeah, I killed Otis, but it saved Carl and Carl is what I care about. And he's, I think on some level, maybe subconsciously thinking to Rick, if you cared about Carl

[00:41:15] and Laurie as much as I did, you would get, you would not worry about this girl, Sophia. You would just get them to safety and, and conserve your, you know, Rick mentions fuel and ammo and food and stuff like that.

[00:41:27] So it's all just sort of building up to the point where Shane just fully thinks, no, man, you're, you're not good for these people. You're going to get them killed. You need to be out of the picture. Yeah. Yeah. I got that too.

[00:41:40] And I also, it reminded me gone with the wind, strangely, um, the difference between Scarlett and Melanie. Uh, cause when Shane said, don't look back, it'll drag you down. It's exactly what Scarlett says to Ashley and Nissy.

[00:41:56] I used to love gum at the wind when I was a kid. Um, whereas Melanie was more an idealist and would do the right thing because it's the right human thing to do. And Rick's Rick's kind of like that as well.

[00:42:10] Although I think he's driven to find Sophia out of guilt. It's out of guilt. It's both right. He feels he's responsible, but also I think he, you know, cause he said, what if it was Carl to Laurie?

[00:42:23] So he is thinking like trying to have empathy for other people. And he so loses that at some points in the story, there was one moment and I can't remember the exact context, but where he just really expresses like a few seasons from now. Like, I don't know.

[00:42:40] Some people are going to die from this decision. I just made, Hey, that's got, it's gotta be the way it is or something like that. Yes. Yeah. Or it wasn't Alexandria. He's like, well, if they don't comply, I'll we'll just take it.

[00:42:52] It's just that, but he could be, that's more Shane like, you know, he, and people have sort of theorized or suggested that over time Rick takes on characteristics of the foes that he defeats. So it might be kind of fun to examine that as we go along too.

[00:43:11] Yeah. I like that. Okay. I think it's Dina's turn. I thought it was Lucy's right. Oh, I'm sorry. Lucy's amazing. All right. Let's talk about Herschel is uncomfortable that people are getting too comfortable at

[00:43:28] the farm and it leads to the world's most awkward dinner party where poor Glenn who sat at the child's table makes a massive faux pas by passing sex notes to the host's daughter

[00:43:42] and asking to play the dead guy's guitar or not quite, but you know what I mean? We also find out that not everyone is exactly following Herschel's rules. Jimmy asks to be taken out on a run to look for Sophia lies about having Herschel's permission

[00:43:57] for that and Darryl takes nervous Nelly without asking. So Herschel is not having a good day. Things are not going well on the farm. They are as he feared, and it's leading to a lot of tension with Rick and the group.

[00:44:10] He's also worried about Maggie and the Asian boy and rightly so because they're about to go try and bang in a hayloft and find out all about his secrets. So yeah, Herschel is having a time and things are not looking good for the longevity of

[00:44:25] the group on the farm. And I think thoughts, I think I don't blame him for being upset about any of that. And I think in a situation like this, it would be totally par for the course for the two parties

[00:44:44] to have to sit down and have a discussion partway through and go, look, there's some things that I don't like the way they're going. And so here's what needs to change. And then if they don't change, then it's an issue.

[00:44:54] And they kind of had a shorthand version of that between Rick and Herschel where he said, you control your people all control mine. So now he's asserted his boundary, you know, so but now Glenn found the zombies in the barn. So that just complicates everything.

[00:45:12] And that's like Herschel not seeing reality. What's the first time we see it? But what's wrong with this guy? And that first go around when you know, when the episode first aired, I think I remember being is Herschel evil at that point?

[00:45:28] Of course, now it's not that simple. But yeah, he's kind of deluded himself. Yeah. At the end of this episode, Dean is going to say how you and I are not seeing reality. So yeah, sorry. I mean, my God. Chupacabras. I love it.

[00:45:50] I can see five chupacabras right now come at me. The mushrooms. It's the mushrooms. I shouldn't have taken so many before this episode. Damn it. We got to try that sometime. That'd be interesting. Oh my god. Do you have another one you want to go into?

[00:46:09] Just the comedy. I loved how much comedy there was in this episode. It was just great. You had Glenn posturing and Maggie shutting him down to be so sexy. I don't even know if I like you that much. Perfect. The whole period thing.

[00:46:27] Like, oh God, I'm going to advise you to keep that. Yeah, Dale's line about shooting Daryl and Daryl's little snarky comments. It was even, I did like Rick and Shane's banter. Well, one, it showed how easy they are with each other or were.

[00:46:48] But it was just the two guys, I guess. I don't know what guys talk about in locker rooms, but I'm assuming that's it. Maybe. That's it. Jason? I think we nailed it. I'm trying to remember.

[00:47:03] You know, I never had a conversation quite that jockey with anyone, but you know, I've probably said some things that I wouldn't want said with no one I really trusted and felt super comfortable with was around as I'm sure everyone, we all have, right? Yeah.

[00:47:20] Oh, you should hear what Jason edits out of the podcast, Dina. We just compare conquests. Oh dear. Lucy, I hope you have more under your belt skirt. Oh, well, you know, who's to say, who's to say. That's our other new segment. Yep. Yep. Lucy's conquest. No. All right.

[00:47:39] Lucy's conquest. All right. Good. My turn? Yep. Yep. So this kind of goes along with that Glenn and Maggie. The tension between the two of them is yeah, that she's unsure. I do think she's not totally sure if she wants anything more with him that he

[00:47:56] kind of needs to step up and show a little something, you know, and he definitely wants something more with her, but he's clueless about how to make it happen. And I love that. Yeah. I still have 11 condoms. You see 11 condoms. I see 11 minutes of my life.

[00:48:10] I'm never getting back. It wasn't that bad. Was it? It seems like maybe he was either a virgin or at least pretty inexperienced. Yeah. I'm guessing. Yeah. It seems that way. Yeah. It seems that way. And then, yeah, she's like, I don't even know if I like you,

[00:48:28] but you're thinking about it. You should. And then she walks off like, seriously? So funny. And I love that given that he did get more self-possessed later. And right now he's a young guy finding himself and trying out that persona of

[00:48:47] this cocky guy and it does not fit at all. And that's the look on Maggie's face like no, dude. And I know what that's like as a young person. Well, not now, but when I was young to try something on and be like, no, that didn't feel right.

[00:49:02] You know, until you kind of find yourself. Oh, yeah. So that makes me appreciate Steven Yeun more just sort of maybe if he did like shape that where I said it last week,

[00:49:13] but you get to see him become a man like he's sort of trying it out right now, but he really comes into his own as the series goes along. He really does. Golden Globe. Yes, that was wonderful. So well-deserved for beef. Yeah. For beef. Yeah. Damn.

[00:49:33] I don't have that in the news either, but that's great. So he's all perplexed. She started off being mean to me. Then she wanted to have sex with me and now she's being mean to me again. I'm like, yes, welcome to dating.

[00:49:45] You know, it's men and women act weird sometimes. You never know what you're going to what the hell's going on. And then, yeah, asking if the women are all are crazy and hormonal. And I'm like, dude, Rick left a little girl out in the woods. Everyone's anxious.

[00:50:04] Dale's anxious about Andrea. Herschel is anxious. Like everyone is crazy. It's not. But Glenn's just clueless and trying to figure Maggie out, I guess. It's so cute as him. This whole suggestion of that there are all the women are on their periods.

[00:50:24] When we were covering Yellow Jackets, there was an episode where all the because it's about this girl soccer team stranded in the woods and they were all on their periods. They had synced up. And so I looked it up and everything I looked up said that's a myth.

[00:50:39] Interesting. Periods don't sync up. Interesting. I don't know. Dina, you and I should we compare calendars? Yeah, I think we should start tracking and I'll write it. Let's do that. You have to move in together though. I'll text you. That's right. Oh, that's fine. I'll fly over.

[00:50:58] It's all good. No, no, no, no. It's for science. I'm coming to Scotland. Yeah. Oh, brilliant. We can go and catch the Loch Ness Monster. Anybody else, any other women go to Scotland? Yeah. We'll do a blood tithe. So Glenn, and he's so hapless like at that dinner.

[00:51:20] He says, does anyone know how to play guitar? And it turns out Otis did. And here I'm like, well, Glenn, that is a purely reasonable thing to like, hey, let's let's have a little cheer in here. You know, that's that's a great impulse.

[00:51:36] And it's no fault of Glenn's that he accidentally stepped in here. And that is... Otis did? Otis did. Okay. Oh, crap. But this is the writers playing to him being the butt of jokes. It is funny.

[00:51:50] But we do see a little of Glenn's solidness in this episode, too. When Dale's all upset that Glenn had sex with Maggie, he's like, Jesus, Glenn, what were you thinking? And I'm like, what kind of question is that? You know what he was thinking.

[00:52:03] But then Glenn says, I was thinking that I might be dead tomorrow. And I'm like, yeah, that really landed, you know? Yeah, absolutely. He sold it. Absolutely. He did. So then and when Herschel...

[00:52:19] Well, so Maggie says to Glenn, you know, I'm not even sure if I like you. And then when Herschel told Maggie that she shouldn't have any contact with Glenn, I'm like, Glenn, you should be thanking Herschel because he just did you a favor here.

[00:52:32] As soon as he said that to Maggie, I knew she was going to be back into Glenn again. Yeah. As soon as daddy said no. Hello, farmer's daughter. So then she gives him the note and they end up...

[00:52:46] Well, he wants to meet in the barn and she runs out there. And that was just a really great scene. I especially like that he first... His first indication that there were walkers in there was the smell. He's like, what is that?

[00:52:59] And then just the way it was revealed. They're all there. Yeah. You weren't supposed to say that. So good. So good. That was a great moment. Great cliffhanger. Yeah, perfect ending. I do need to share that anytime something happens in the house, like I drop something or whatever,

[00:53:16] I'm always like, there's been an accident. Come quick, there's been an accident. It's like, really? Again, I'm like, it's just funny. I hope you're carrying your baseball bat around too. I do. Also, I need to correct myself.

[00:53:32] Last week, I said that Maggie had never put down a walker or seen a walker get put down before last week. Completely wrong. She knocks one out with a baseball bat when she's saving Andrea. But I do wonder, is that out of character?

[00:53:43] Is it because it's definitely not someone she knows? I don't know. Good point. Yeah, I think they were just like, hopefully everyone will forget about this by the time we get into their story. We'll retcon it real quick.

[00:53:55] You know, I was thinking about last night too when I rewatched. And I gave the excuse that it's a stranger or not stranger. People are in danger. And in those cases, you wipe it out. Yeah, that would make the most sense. Yeah.

[00:54:13] And maybe it's both that she didn't know the person and people are in danger. Or the writer screwed up. Like you said. They might have just thought, hey, it's more worthwhile to have her come in swinging like a hero and have that little flub. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[00:54:32] Anything else? Anybody? I'm all out of points. I just have notes. I've just got notes too. Yep. Okay. Lucy, why don't you go first? All right. Darryl's saying that if the horse is smart, it left the country. He made me laugh.

[00:54:46] I did also laugh when Herschel said, it's a wonder you people have survived this long. And I'm like, I mean, you do have a point. The doll. There was a meme for ages of T-dog holding up the doll and essentially doing the same facial expression as the doll.

[00:55:01] And I'd forgotten it existed until I saw him holding up the doll. And then I was like, oh, caption competition. It's just such a dramatic shot. And he looks so like, and the doll is just like. I always call it the haunted doll.

[00:55:18] I'm like, oh, God, the haunted doll. Rick and Shane argue about the meaning of protege and prodigy. Oh, yes. Shane is right. Protege is a word, but I don't think it's the word he means there. Sadly, I think Rick is correct.

[00:55:32] Yeah, it could fit if he was saying you're my protege, then it would make sense. Yeah. He was talking about himself. In some ways, Shane is Rick's protege. And we get canon confirmation that Maggie is 22, which Jason and I spoke about in an earlier episode. So that's cool.

[00:55:51] Right, right. Dina? I don't really have any notes notes, but I have some little thoughts. The fact that our practical Daryl leaves in a chupacabra is just charming. Everyone's got something. Yep. And his accent. I miss that accent. It's so gentle and Southern and lulling.

[00:56:15] And now everyone's talked about how he sounds like Batman, which is also lovely. Yeah, I actually have some clips. So because I remember thinking there's such a contrast because he talks so gravelly now. And back then he had more of a tone in his voice.

[00:56:36] In this episode, it really came across that not only was it that he had a tone in his voice, but there was a Southern sort of accent to it. And then when he's talking to Ghost Merle, it's sort of foreshadowing for how he's going to talk later on.

[00:56:51] So here's an example of him with his tone. She's up there. I'll spot her like that. And then here he is talking to Ghost Merle. I mean, that could be season nine. Yeah, that's crazy. I guess he had it back then. Okay. What a contrast. Interesting.

[00:57:40] What else did I have? Merle, I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, but I just love him. He's such a reprobate and he acts so well. And every time Rooker comes on screen, it's just, he holds it. Yeah, it's he's wonderful.

[00:57:58] It reminds me, did you guys see, I don't know if you watch Ride with Norman Reedus. Did he do a Rooker episode? Oh my God, I watched it twice. He just like, pee your pants laughing. That guy's, he's a loose cannon.

[00:58:12] If you ever get a chance to go to a convention that he's at, you should go and see his panels. He's a fucking riot. Really? Okay. Yeah. That's worth it just for that. It is. The music. I love Bear McCreary. It was good, right?

[00:58:33] No, I mean the rest of the episode, it was the Western drumbeat, the tribal Darryl thing. Oh, I like it. Oh God. It's so basic. Jason and I disagree about it. I'm so basic. I'm like, that was cool. And he's like, no, no, it was not cool.

[00:58:47] I didn't know. I don't even know. It was just so stereotypical. I don't know. Yeah. It was, I don't know, a little cheesy. Sorry, Lucy. No, Dina, honestly, you are in the majority on this one. I'm like, yeah, no.

[00:59:01] And then finally, I just had a lesson learned. Do not use a car in the apocalypse because it'll get you nowhere. Yeah. Use a what? A car. But why? I don't, am I missing, I don't remember.

[00:59:14] Well, you know that cold open, I guess I should have thought of this then. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're just stuck. Yeah. And do you think that that was the same highway that Rick rode his horse up to go into the city? It looked different.

[00:59:32] Because it's going into Atlanta, you know, and there's a big traffic jam. Yeah. Yeah, I think it could be. I don't know for sure. It made me wonder who the group all met. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:45] I think those two groups may have just met right there, but we don't see how Glenn and T-Dog and Daryl and Merle became a part of it. And we'll never find out unless someone makes a good video game showing that stuff. Anything else you know?

[00:59:59] Oh, I guess they do have something else. You know how I got that crossbow for Christmas? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. So I started looking at crossbows. Merle. Yes, Merle, my beloved Merle.

[01:00:11] And I came across this blog written by an author and her husband hates the show because he's an avid crossbow hunter. And he, the main thing he hates, I mean, it's a wonderful, I'll send it to you afterwards.

[01:00:25] He hates, it's impossible for Daryl to have impaled himself with an arrow, which I don't know if I agree with, but it's a pretty interesting read. So I'll send it. I'll send it. Nice. And that's it. That's all I have.

[01:00:40] Great. I have a few. So this episode aired on Sunday, November 13th, 2011. And my first day as a zombie on set was Monday, November 14th, the next day. Oh, cool. Wow.

[01:00:59] And we did four days. So through Thursday, the 17th, and I'm pretty sure I was in a hotel in Atlanta as I was watching Atlanta get bombed in this episode. Wow. Cool. It's extra creepy.

[01:01:15] I've heard some listeners are going back and listening to our original Walking Dead cast episodes along with this rewatch.

[01:01:24] And I'm curious to go back and listen to the next one, which is season two, episode six, Secrets, because I already knew at that point that Sophia was in the barn because when I was an extra, that's when I learned that.

[01:01:38] And so I want to go back and listen. I asked Karen, did I spoil that for you back then? Because I can't remember if I told her and she said no, I let her find out from the show.

[01:01:48] But I want to listen to that episode and see if I was like hinting at it at all or something. Oh, that would be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Next, early in this episode, we see Rick giving out more search grids for the search for Sophia.

[01:02:05] And I remember watching this like the fifth episode and being like, God, when is this plot line going to be over? Like, I almost agree with Shane. That's enough. Yeah.

[01:02:16] But I think this was the first time in The Walking Dead that it felt like the plot was extended a bit too long just to make it to the midseason finale.

[01:02:25] And that's something that The Walking Dead over and over again, you know, you feel like this is going to be resolved in the midseason finale and then this is going to be resolved in the finale.

[01:02:34] And that's something that Angela Kang, I feel like, was aware of and kind of didn't do that so much. You know, she picked the pace up when she became showrunner. Yeah. Which I was very grateful for. Carol, she wants to cook a meal for the Greens as thanks.

[01:02:51] And that just got me thinking about how she throughout the series is a good cook and it's a skill and a hobby of hers that continues on.

[01:02:59] But it takes on a different feel because like in Alexandria, she uses it to make people think that she's still the way that she actually is right now. Yeah. Kind of harmless. Meanwhile, she's spying on them and stealing guns from the armory.

[01:03:13] And then little Sam finds her doing that. And so she tells him that if he tells on her, he'll be tied to a tree and eaten by walkers. That's good parenting. Blessing, Carol. And she bribes him with more cookies. And then she works in a bakery, right?

[01:03:29] In the Commonwealth, I think. Yeah. And then she makes stone soup. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then this guy that plays Jimmy is James Allen McCune. Super nice guy. He was at Walker Stalker a couple times.

[01:03:44] He asked me one time if he could have one of the Walker Stalker volunteers shirts. Not like a specific volunteer. I want their shirt, but he wanted one like that. So I hunted it down for him, but he was really nice. That's amazing.

[01:04:00] Blair Witch sequel that came out in 2016. Oh, yeah. Oh, cool. I liked when Dale said if I'd known the world was ending, I'd have brought better books. Yeah, big fear. Yeah. I can totally imagine thinking that too, you know? I don't even read that much anymore.

[01:04:18] But if, you know, the Internet was gone, then I'd be like, read more. Darryl, it's kind of interesting. He knows about the Chupacabra and he had this Cherokee Rose story last week. I wonder if they meant for him to have more like folksy things about him.

[01:04:33] Because I don't remember anything else like that, but it feels like those two go together. They kind of go hand in hand. Yeah. And that's about it. All right. Timeline. We're on day 69. Not much has changed. IMDB dive.

[01:04:54] Apparently during one of the Merle and Darryl scenes, a carpenter ant, which I believe is a really big ant, bit Norman Reedus mid-scene and made him flinch. But they kept it in because it looked like a good emotional reaction. And now he brings carpenter ants to every set.

[01:05:09] He has ants literally in his pants. This episode sees the first Dixon brothers scene together. We had a listener write in about this. Oh wow, I never thought about that.

[01:05:22] Yeah, about this next fact, which is that the 22 that Shane wears is actually John Bernthal's high school football number. The sign in Dale's RV offering a nice cup of shut the hell up is actually a nod to a line from Dawn of the Dead, which I didn't know.

[01:05:39] The scenes where Darryl sees Merle are filmed at Cochran Mill Nature Reserve in Palmetto, Georgia. Chupacabra, as we've mentioned, means goat sucker. Annie Oakley was a famous female sharpshooter in the early 20th century. This episode sees the first line spoken by Beth, who says Mr. Grimes.

[01:06:01] And interestingly, the arrow that you mentioned, Dina, is apparently according to IMDb a nod to deliverance where a character stabs themselves by accident with their own arrow. So I don't know if that's true or not. Right. I remember that.

[01:06:17] But this is what IMDb says. So yeah, some nice trivia this week. Yeah. Oh, I have one more actually. I just thought of with the horse. I read or watched some interview a long time ago. Norman Reedus is petrified of horses. Oh, no way. Just kind of fun.

[01:06:34] Maybe this is why. Yeah. He loved them before this episode. Oh, wow. That's tough. All right. What about Only on the Walking Dead? Only on the Walking Dead is finding a haunted doll a good thing. Only on the Walking Dead would an ear necklace be considered hot.

[01:06:55] Although I guess it's not. Depends on who you are. Yeah, that's right. This is a Walking Dead cast news update. So there was a two minute trailer for The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live this week. I didn't want to watch it or know too much about it.

[01:07:46] I'll put a link in the show notes. But did either of you watch it and was it any good? I didn't watch it. I don't want to either. You did, Lucy? Yeah. We open on Rick in a hammock on a tropical island.

[01:07:57] In the background we hear, if you like pina coladas, I'm getting caught in the rain. And he says, I'm so glad I don't have to take care of my children or my wife anymore. And then we fade to black. That's great. It sounds really good. Yeah.

[01:08:15] Honestly, I think it's going to be a relaxing watch. Yeah. I wonder if he just says that every morning when he wakes up. Yep. And then you hear the refrain of no women, no cry. Okay. Sounds good. The Ones Who Live It Up, it's called?

[01:08:31] The Ones Who Live It Up. I can't wait. I did watch. It wasn't super spoilery. It was a typical trailer. You know what I mean? I feel like some trailers you're just like, okay, cool. So yeah, we'll see.

[01:08:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll see. I think it did, I read it did have Terry O'Quinn in it, right? The guy? Yes, you do get a glimpse of the Beal, which is cool.

[01:08:57] Sweet. Yeah. I mean, we could report the hell out of that and dissect it, but I feel like that just takes all the fun out of it. So we're not going to do that, but go watch it yourself if you want to.

[01:09:08] I'll put a link in the show notes. And we also started a Walking Dead The Ones Who Live chat that's connected to our podcast Facebook group. If you guys want to start chatting about it. Yeah, it is.

[01:09:20] Join that. So next, The Last of Us just won several creative arts Emmys, which they're Emmys, but they come out before the main primetime Emmys and they're more for either technical or kind of behind the scenes stuff. And they won eight. Holy mother. Wow, that's great.

[01:09:39] Outstanding picture editing for a drama series for the pilots. No, for Endure and Survive, which was the one with Henry and Sam and the big bloater. Outstanding main title design, outstanding prosthetic makeup for Infected where we first saw the clickers in the statehouse.

[01:09:56] That was so good. Outstanding sound editing for drama series for When You're Lost in the Darkness, which was the pilots and outstanding sound mixing for that same episode.

[01:10:06] Special visual effects in a season. Outstanding guest actress in a drama series for Stormy or Storm Storm Storm Reed. Yeah, I'm thinking of a different person. Storm Reed, who's Ellie's friend, you know, girlfriend on Riley in Left Behind.

[01:10:26] And outstanding guest actor in a drama series for Nick Offerman, who played Bill. Oh, well deserved. Yes. Right? Yes.

[01:10:34] That was cool. And he gave a speech and I guess he kind of was nervous and had a few flubs. But so he published the text on his Instagram and I think it's kind of interesting.

[01:10:48] So I'm just going to read it. It says Fortune presents gifts not according to the book. Thank you to the Academy for this pat on the back and for even counting me among my fellow nominees, especially my magnificently generous partner and rightly lauded Aussie top man, the girth from Perth, Murray Bartlett.

[01:11:08] It would have been awfully tough to pull off a beautiful, richly veined two hander. I feel like there's some there's some imagery there. Thank you to HBO and Carolyn Strauss for continuing to produce wildly entertaining programs like this that arc towards decency and inclusivity to Neal Druckmann for thinking it up.

[01:11:25] Peter Hoare for conducting Evan Bolter for shooting it and Timothy Good for cutting it together. Connie Parker, Joanna Moreau, Chris Glimmsdale, Greg Ock and Cynthia Ann Summers for modeling call Molly coddling me on the set and creating my sexy or sign prepper look.

[01:11:40] And the rest of the astonishing band of artists on the last of us too many to name Pedro, who crafted this episode with such exquisite care. But God damn it, folks, we would all just be standing around with our thumbs in our asses if Craig Mason had not written this script. This is the best script I've ever been handed. If you enjoy what we do, then it's always an only because the writing is so good. And I'm so grateful to be able to participate in this tradition of storytelling as medicine, with which we demonstrate our devotion to each other.

[01:12:09] Because as Wendell Berry says, it all turns on affection. Speaking of Megan Mullally is not only my bride and legal property. Okay. She is my muse and my acting teacher. And I would certainly not be standing here without her patient tutelage. And that's not a euphemism. Thank you to Josh J. And Matt UTA.

[01:12:31] Hold on. It's almost done. Bob, Bob, Bob, thank you powerfully to Mother Nature and Linda Ronstadt each for their particular strawberries. And finally, to my own mom and dad who taught me to use tools in the kitchen and the garden and the woodshed as an expression of love and fidelity by way of what we do to care for each other, which we have learned once again from Craig Mason in this episode is the whole damn point. Thank you.

[01:12:55] That's beautiful. Love Nick Offerman. Yeah, there's been a casting update for Last of Us as well. Yeah, that was gonna be my next one. Amazing.

[01:13:06] So if you played Last of Us Part Two, which future seasons of the TV show will be based on, you know, the character Abby is a big character. And Caitlin Dever has been cast in that role.

[01:13:20] And she was in Justified, Last Man Standing, and the movie Booksmart. And she actually originally read for the part of Ellie. And also another character Jesse, who was in the game too, but not nearly as big of a role is going to be played by young Mazino, who was Paul Cho, the brother of Steven Yeun's character in Beef.

[01:13:43] Yes, that's great. Yeah, super cool. So that's it for the news. I mean, what did we say? There was a couple things we mentioned during the podcast that I Steven Yeun, Golden Globe. And 28 years later, there's some more news items that are cool. Yeah.

[01:14:03] So let's move on to the Lister Mones Grunge Grunts. So we'll just take turns reading these. Why don't you go first, Dina? Okay, I think I have a very short one. Joe Eiling loved Karen's insight on Cherokee Rose. Would be great to see her on another rewatch episode.

[01:14:27] Yeah, we love Karen. We love Karen and she'll definitely be back on at some point for something.

[01:14:34] Gemma, our friend from Wales says, I did not know there were walkers in the barn all those years ago. I remember shouting, Oh my God, there's walkers in the barn. I thought Glenn would fall or something. When Sophia came out, I was heartbroken and cried for ages. I think Herschel's farm is so peaceful and idyllic in contrast with everything else. It's hard to understand. He's literally got about 20 walkers in there.

[01:14:54] I never understood how he got them in there without letting them all out and if he actually knew Sophia was in the barn or not. I think he didn't know. I think it doubles down on the tragedy of Otis because he had that knowledge and because he got killed, he couldn't share it.

[01:15:09] Yeah, somebody was saying in the chat they thought that Otis is the one who would corral or at least corral Sophia into the barn. Yeah.

[01:15:21] Gloria Hernan says, Chupacabra. I really liked this episode. Rick and Shane coming to odds foreshadowing Glenn wanting more sex. Maggie being coy about it. Darryl's horse being spooked by a snake then hallucinates Merle. Well, at least he got him up that hill.

[01:15:37] Oh, Dale. Maggie's a grown ass woman. Don't be getting all judgy with Glenn. Yeah, he just can't help himself. She means Dale being judgy. Glenn does know about women's periods all syncing up. Smart kid. LOL. I'm telling you, look it up. Every scientific study or research study says that's not actually true.

[01:15:57] For the love of God, Andrea, you almost killed Darryl. Although the joke Dale made on the porch, don't be too hard on yourself. We've always wanted to shoot Darryl was pretty funny. That dinner yikes was way too quiet for me. Thank God for Maggie and Glenn. What a sweet scene between Carol and Darryl. Poor Glenn thinks he's going to he's going to the barn for a little action and gets the shit scared out of him again. Great episode.

[01:16:23] That is a good point. Last thing Glenn wanted to see. Glenn's gonna have a lot of sexual trauma I feel like. Although, I mean, he may have been but do you want to anyway? Or some very specific kinks. Oh boy.

[01:17:39] Sorry if I offended anyone who had this as the top 10 episode of all time. Don't get bit. Well, Rinaldi you've just offended all of our chupacabra listeners. All those little chupacabras listening in are like well, screw you Rinaldi. We're coming after you. We're coming to get you.

[01:17:57] Rinaldi has this like extensively noted list of, you know, he ranked all the episodes and made extensive notes on all of them. I love that. Where can you find that? I should do that sometime. Is it on online somewhere?

[01:18:13] Oh, I don't think he's, uh, has he posted it? I think he posted it in our Zedhead group. If you look up on our Zedhead Patreon page. Okay. Actually not the group but the page. You know, the Facebook. Yeah.

[01:18:30] Is that a group? That's a group. Yeah. I don't know. If you search on Rinaldi you might be able to find it there. Okay. I'll find out.

[01:18:37] Alex Kruger says, I'm going to start by saying when I first watched the series when the pandemic first started, I absolutely did not pick up on the clues about truth in the barn at all. Not one little bit. Interesting.

[01:18:48] Chupacabra is a major highlight of season two. Oh, Rinaldi. One of the first things that stands out to me is even though Shane is absolutely correct with his belief and assumption of Sophia's situation, he does an absolute crap job of selling it to his audience. Rick.

[01:19:03] Hindsight being 20, 20 makes it easy to say Shane is right, but the way he presents his argument would make me want to prove him wrong rather than trust. He may be right.

[01:19:10] Norman Reedus is 99% of the reason I relented and watch the show in the first place because I was a teenager when Boondock Saints came out and that just speaks for itself.

[01:19:19] I'm blown away by Darrell's acting sometimes. And this episode has been so much for him to work with. This episode has so much for him to work with. What a standout showcase. The fact that his first reaction when he thought Rick shot at him was I was joking is one of my favorite deliveries that line deliveries that he has.

[01:19:36] I really like the conversation between Dale and Glenn and greatly appreciated Dale teaching Glenn to never inquire if women's cycles are syncing up. Great advice for all young men. And lastly, only in The Walking Dead can you see a Walker ear necklace and think to yourself, I bet I can find that on Etsy. You know, you can. Thanks, Alex.

[01:19:56] Becky Fenner Anderson says, Hello, TWD fam. Here are my thoughts. Love the cold open. One of my favorite parts of these early seasons is the flashbacks. Yeah, like those two powerful moment when the bombing began more about before and right up to the apocalypse was what I was hoping we get a lot more with fear. Oh, well, yeah.

[01:20:14] Yeah. Seeing Ed being a dick to Carol reminded me of how glad I am he's gone. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yep. It was nice for a minute to see Shane and Rick laughing and reminiscing during the search. Cool view of their friendship before the world ended. I agree. That was nice. Yeah. And I think that was also part of the point because then Shane just kind of shat all over it.

[01:20:34] They have good chemistry between you and Jim was writing to me in chat just saying he's really admiring even more now Bernthal's performance. And so am I. And I John Bernthal is one of the more successful actors to come out of The Walking Dead, maybe the most even. I mean, it's him and Steven Yeun, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Punisher didn't eat a whole show. Yeah, he did. But he also he was in Sicario and yeah.

[01:21:04] Wall Street, I think. And the bear, the bear. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Shane's words. Wait, was that where it was? The Shane's words were harsh, but I do think he was speaking some truth. It's always funny when someone says, yes, I want the truth. Then you give it to them and they get mad. I didn't care much for Merle's moments. I think the point of him being there was to motivate Darrell to keep moving. But I didn't like his words. And I feel his rant went on too long. In my opinion, the end result was a bit of a shame.

[01:21:34] I don't think the end result would have happened without all that. Don't think it was necessary. It was necessary. I thought it was great. I didn't like his words either. No, I enjoyed watching it. The shot of the walker falling to the ground with the arrow stuck in his head was cool. That was awesome. Can't believe Darrell ate a raw squirrel. Oh my God. I can believe it. Definitely got worms.

[01:21:59] I'm going to nip this in the bud. Opinions vary.

[01:22:24] Not the barn Glen. I remember he was the one to discover the secret, but for some reason I thought it happened in a later episode. I'm glad at least that happened now. We needed something to move things along. I know the moment Maggie showed up was meant to be serious, but it made me chuckle. You weren't supposed to see that. You think? Another great Darrell and Carol moment. It was so sweet when she leaned over to kiss his head. Darrell's response about the stitches was so Darrell and so cute. I'm looking forward to more moments like this between them.

[01:22:52] After all the ugly Merle said in Darrell's visions, those words from Carol were perfect. I'm glad she shared them and let Darrell know he is needed, is wanted, and he's not alone. Not the most exciting episode, but it is a good one because of what it does to set up what's to come until next time. Have a great weekend. Well, that was great.

[01:23:09] Thanks Becky. That was wonderful. Thanks for having me. That scared me more than the zombies, to be honest. We didn't really mention that, but yeah, totally. What are you talking about?

[01:24:19] Tiege has a knack of bringing up the things we forget to mention. I love it. I think he's psychic. It's so good. I like it when that happens too. It's great.

[01:24:27] And Sarah Wayne Calley plays that moment brilliantly. It's like, oh, Sophia? Yeah, okay. No, she doesn't say that, obviously. But yeah, the relief on her face is palpable. You realize Shane actually wants to kill you? What a relief.

[01:24:42] Oh my god, he told you about the fucking? No, he told me about Sophia. Oh. What was it about fucking? Oh, nothing. Oh no, nevermind. I gotta go over there now. Bye. All right, here is Sam.

[01:24:56] Hi Sam from Boston. I am recovering from COVID. So I have the smoker's cough, even though I am a lifelong non-smoker. This is such a great episode.

[01:25:07] I forgot how funny The Walking Dead used to be. Like, I mean, it has its funny moments now. And I do enjoy the more like emo, grim future that it has now.

[01:25:19] I just, I'd forgotten how much the show used to also make me laugh. They just had some great one liners in there. And I forgot that Glenn made that sexist comment. I don't know. I just either avoided it or whatever.

[01:25:32] And then I like how Dale's like, you should keep that opinion to yourself. It's like, yeah, that's a good idea. Because Glenn, I know you're young.

[01:25:41] And Maggie's not giving you the clearest of signals, but you crashed on your family's farm. And she doesn't know you and everyone's just trying to figure themselves out in the apocalypse. But it's not her hormones, dude. Like what?

[01:25:53] Yeah, like, like Rick, Shane, Daryl are all acting super cool and chill. But yeah, no, it's not. It's not hormones. Glenn, keep that to yourself. Like the women don't have to cater to you.

[01:26:04] I get it. He's young. And obviously, it's just like a one off mistake. But it took me by surprise. I forgot he did that. I was like, oh, Glenn said that.

[01:26:12] And then he went back to our usual Glenn where he's like, I can sleep with Maggie if she wants to and I want to. We're two consenting adults. Yes, that's right.

[01:26:22] And then I, I knew that they brought back Rooker for the flashback. I don't know if it was like a narrative reason. But I it reminded me of when I ran a marathon in Chicago where there is a point where you get like physically and mentally worn out.

[01:26:38] And it's just at least for me and a few other people that I was friends with that ran the marathon you remind us go to like a dark space. And so like I'm running it being like if I survived my mom, I can survive this. Like, so I'm curious, like what you guys think about if that's why Daryl hallucinated his brother. To be fair, I did not have auditory or visual hallucinations during the marathon. Thanks so much for the podcast. You guys are doing wonderfully. I love it so much.

[01:27:05] I do think it helped motivate him.

[01:27:08] Yeah, yeah, sure. I think in therapy, they talk a lot about your sort of critical parent and your sympathetic parent and your inner child and stuff. And I think Merle is Daryl's critical parent. Like he's a crap parent, but he's his critical parent and his like negative force. And I think that was just an external kind of manifestation of that.

[01:27:30] Yeah, yeah. Like a dramatic representation. And I also think so many people who've done really notable things, great things are often motivated from dark things that happened to them in their lives. Absolutely. To run away from something or to overcome something or whatever.

[01:27:48] Yeah. Or they go the other way. But I agree with you. Yeah, for sure. All right. One more from Archmeister Renny.

[01:27:56] You asked on the last podcast about whether people who were not comic readers suspected that something was going on in the barn with Herschel. And I remember the first time that I saw the show having no idea about Herschel's odd relationship with zombies or that there was anything suspicious in the barn.

[01:28:22] I did think when Daryl was injured and at one point he looks over and he sees there's a bush and he hears it rustling before he tries to climb out the first time.

[01:28:36] I thought that zombie Sophia was going to be coming out of those bushes and was rather surprised that she didn't.

[01:28:46] One other thing I noticed in this episode is that when Daryl comes back out of his fever dream of Merle and he realizes that there's a walker trying to bite through his boot and it's not Merle kicking him.

[01:29:01] That's actually a great foreshadowing of Daryl ultimately seeing Merle as a walker. But that probably wasn't planned that way because at that point they probably didn't know they were going to bring Merle back as a walker. But nonetheless, it works anyway. All right. I like that.

[01:29:23] That's it for this episode. Love you, Renny. I'm pretty sure they were hoping to have Rooker come back as more of a regular at some point in the future. But, you know, I doubt they had those little details planned out.

[01:29:37] Yeah, he probably had more of a film career at that point than the rest of the crew. I mean, yeah.

[01:29:43] Oh, yeah. But he's gotten even more, yeah, even bigger since then. But about not knowing the zombies were in the barn or not thinking about that. I've also been reading in chat and I think, yeah, we got a couple other messages about that this time. It seems like no one really thought that, at least that's written into us or talked to us so far about it.

[01:30:06] Do you remember, Dina? I don't. I don't. So long ago. I know, it really was. It was. That's true. All right. That is our show. Episode 560. Thanks for listening as always, everybody. Dina, thanks for coming on. It was a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having me.

[01:30:30] It was so amazing to have you and you got me on an absolute chaos of a day. So I promise I'm not usually eating takeaway restaurant dessert on a sofa in a hotel room. Like, that's not my usual style. But thank you for putting up with it anyway.

[01:30:43] I wish you could have sent it through the Zoom. Oh God, it was good to not lie.

[01:30:48] Dina, you might remember when we've mentioned about her before that she is a novelist and also a fan fiction writer. And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that, whatever you want to talk about and where people can find your stuff.

[01:31:03] Oh gosh. So I've always been writing since I was a little kid. And my mom said I was going to be the next Louisa May Alcott, which obviously did not happen. But I did start writing romance novels back in the 2000s and they were published. And then I got the rights back and I re-edited and they're on Amazon.

[01:31:26] And I used to have a great little website, but I lost faith and took it down. Aww, Dina. I guess.

[01:31:35] Well, if you give me a link or I'll look it up and I'll put a link in the show notes for people who want to check that stuff out. Okay. Sounds good. Thanks.

[01:31:43] Also, we can cut this part if you want, but I think you said you've decided to go a level deeper in your expression of your love for Daryl recently?

[01:31:53] Yes. This is pathetic and I am 52 and clearly I'm having an affair, but it's on my thigh and it's Daryl's face. Amazing, Dina. You do you. What's the expression? He's smoldering. Of course. Do you want me to send a picture? Yes, absolutely. I will. I will.

[01:32:21] Absolutely own it. Shut your inner Merle up. Yes, you're right. I will. So that's cool. So next episode of this podcast will be The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 6, Secrets, where we will not tell you what we thought. No. It's like Hershel's secret rules.

[01:32:39] If you want to write in and tell us some secrets or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all of our contact information at podcastfury.com. And while you're there, please check out our other podcasts. Dina, do you listen to any of our other shows?

[01:32:55] I listen to The Haunting of Hill House and The Great British Baking Show. That's it so far. So those are both on Strange Indeed, which is hosted by Rima and Peg mostly with a few other guests sometimes.

[01:33:11] And if you haven't checked out Strange Indeed, I definitely recommend checking out. They cover all kinds of mostly dark Netflix shows and British Bake Off.

[01:33:20] But those Mike Flanagan shows in particular are really good. And of course they cover Stranger Things, which I guess they've just started working back on Season 5 now. So that's cool. Yay!

[01:33:30] This episode was made possible by Patreon supporters like Catherine Peters, who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash Jason Kabasi. So thank you so much to Catherine and everybody else who's doing that. I appreciate it. Yay! Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Chantelle Hizlop.