565: "Years" (TWD: The Ones Who Live S1E1)

[00:00:00] I don't care why you're covered in blood, why the bombs go out and why they don't come back. Yes, you do. It's in my city. Those aren't my people. Everyone are your people, everyone alive. This isn't everything! You don't get to choose for the world.

[00:00:26] You don't get to choose for me. I don't? You did. You made the choice. My wife is my choice. My daughter, my life is my choice. You think I went what I went through? I did what I did to let anyone choose anything for me.

[00:01:13] A podcast dedicated to the show, The Walking Dead. Hey Zedheads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And this is The Cast of Us episode 565. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live, season one, episode one, years. Woo! Yay!

[00:01:39] The ones who live it up. I guess he wasn't at a resort. I'm still on the fence. I'm still on the fence. I mean he's trying to get in there. Yeah. He put his six years in. Yeah, I mean six, whatever. Well let's get into it.

[00:01:58] The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live, season one, episode one, years. The show we've been waiting for for years. I want to mention at the top there's something that happens in this episode that viewers

[00:02:09] of World Beyond have more knowledge of and rather than spoil it for people who didn't watch World Beyond we're going to have a spoilery section at the very end of the podcast. So if you saw World Beyond or you just don't mind being spoiled then keep listening after

[00:02:24] we sign off at the end and we'll get into it a little bit. But we don't want to spoil it for people in the middle. No. So what'd you think? I had a blast. I really enjoyed this.

[00:02:37] Can I say that we for the first time got screeners for this so I felt particularly fancy. Yeah, no, great. Really good. It is killing me to not watch the next three episodes but I haven't done it. I haven't done it.

[00:02:52] I just watched this and I cut it. You can watch it as soon as we're done talking. Yeah, I'm like okay so let's hurry up. Let's go, go, go. Five points. The next one only. No, I enjoyed it. I really did.

[00:03:04] There were some bits that felt, I don't know, surreal or strange but all in all I'm pretty psyched about it and I think it was a strong opener. How about you? I had a pretty different experience after first and second watch.

[00:03:20] I was thrilled to see Rick no matter what. I found parts of it great and intriguing but I was like man this is very bleak, it's depressing, it's kind of gimpily in not a great way after my first watch.

[00:03:35] On second watch digging really in, getting rid of some of the confusion I had which was part of why I wasn't as into it because I didn't quite understand where some people were coming from but really focusing in. Then I kind of loved it.

[00:03:48] I think it's a meatier, weightier, more consequential series than Dead City or The Daryl Show and I think that makes sense for Rick. It's exciting. It is very bleak but I'm thinking that'll just give him a place to come from and be

[00:04:07] triumphant in the end and it'll feel great. I will say, I think there was a lot of world building and exposition in this episode which not all of it was easy to pick up first time round. I had to go back and dig in a bit.

[00:04:24] Even though we know more because we saw World Beyond. I wonder if people who didn't see World Beyond might have more trouble with it or what. There are still some bits where I'm like hang on, what is the system of government? I don't understand.

[00:04:37] All in all I think it was strong and I think it didn't feel clunky with exposition but some bits I was like maybe it could be clunkier to make it easier for dumb-dumbs like me who don't understand what's happening. But we got there.

[00:04:49] There's a lot to take in. Yeah definitely. It really was. Definitely. I don't want to talk too much about World Beyond. We'll talk about it a little bit more at the end but while I'm thinking of it, I also kind

[00:04:59] of wondered if we hadn't seen World Beyond would we like it even more because it feels a bit like oh Rick's kind of plopped down into the World Beyond show. It does feel like that right? And all those concepts were really different and cool to us.

[00:05:17] That's one reason why we've talked up that show so much but we've already seen it and I kind of feel like if we hadn't seen it, it would be more mind-blowing to be like oh

[00:05:25] my god that's where Rick is versus oh yeah he's that place that we saw before. I think it's interesting because did we… I'm just going to call it Philly because I'm pretty sure it's Philadelphia that we're seeing. Yes it is. Did we make it there in World Beyond?

[00:05:39] I can never remember where we went in World Beyond. We went to New York right? I think we saw Kublick in Philly. In an apartment right? And then there was someone knocked on the door and we were like oh is it Rick?

[00:05:48] And it wasn't it was just some dude. But now I'm like it could have been Rick. That's fun. That's right. Well yeah but just for people who don't give a shit about World Beyond, let's put that behind us for now and get into our points.

[00:06:01] What do you got? Okay it's not a point it's just some context. So I will do my context and then do my point. I went into the timeline today so for our rewatch that we've been doing I've been really

[00:06:12] interested in the timelines of all the places in the Walking Dead universe and I got a bit confused watching this episode as to when everything was happening so I'm hoping this will help. I'm relating everything to real years but not the years that the show aired so like

[00:06:31] the years that it would have been in the show. So the bridge blew up in roughly 2014 so that's the last time we saw Rick. So if I understand. And that's about four years in? Yeah that's about four years and I think it's early 2011.

[00:06:47] I thought it was a little bit longer like five. So we saw about four or five years of his life on the show. And then he disappears. The show opens it says five years after the bridge.

[00:07:02] Rick is…so that's 20…going by what happens in this I think it's probably likely to be late 2018 early 2019 just bear with me because I do go into why this is. The one event that we do have firmly in the timeline on the wiki is that Omaha, the destruction

[00:07:20] of Omaha happens the same year that Magna and Luke and everyone are found by Judith and that year is 2019. So Omaha happens the year that Luke and Magna etc are found by Judith.

[00:07:31] Two years after that the main show kind of ends two or three years after that event so roughly 2022. So in this show when it says now I think we're roughly in 2023 or 2024. We might we're a little bit after the end of the main show.

[00:07:47] It makes sense roughly for where Michonne is but I think next week it's going to get thrown for a loop if it's a Michonne episode next week because we're going to see where she's been and stuff.

[00:07:57] But roughly just to contextualize we're looking at about eight-ish years is kind of where we're at now. Which is it's interesting because we saw about four years for maybe a little more I think

[00:08:09] but anyway around that much of his life on the show and he's actually been gone longer than that. Right. More time has passed for him than what we saw of him. I think it's interesting that yeah we can really link in what's happening in the main

[00:08:24] show with the kind of his decision to start training after Omaha Falls. So my first point is what is happening? So I'm going to tell you what I think is happening in this show. Make sure that I've watched the pilot right.

[00:08:40] So Rick is being held by the CRM. He has tried to escape five times by the end of this episode. What we saw in the finale of the main show was his third attempt at escape and it happened in the first five years of his imprisonment.

[00:08:54] He has spent five years as a consignee which is where all the bees go. So the bees, the people that are likely to obey and contribute rather than try and be a leader or lead an uprising are sent to be consignees and they can gain access to this

[00:09:11] big fancy city by doing service and various things like that. And if you watch World Beyond you'll know where the A's go but we're not saying that. Yeah we're not going to tell you anything about that. It's like we're on shilling for World Beyond here.

[00:09:23] We're like, well if you watch World Beyond you know. I know, I know. I just can't help but think about it. Hey all I'll say is Negan was nearly an A because GHS radios him in as an A. That's right. So things could have been different.

[00:09:35] That would have been awesome. Yeah I know right. So Rick has spent five years. The Negan show would have been a lot shorter. It would have just been the Maggie show.

[00:09:44] So he has spent five years as a consignee but we see in this episode that he decides to join the military and in this episode we see him commit fully to the military. He's then on a helicopter mission with Okafor or Explodafor as I've been calling him when

[00:10:00] their flight is shot down and this is the point at which he is reunited with Michonne but we have no idea how that reunion is going to go because they are both in shock and then we cut to black.

[00:10:12] Will it be a passionate embrace and a kiss or you know I just decided that I'm your enemy sorry. Or will they both just kill each other and the next five episodes will just be filler. So that is my understanding of what is happening.

[00:10:26] What is interesting is that Rick by the time he reunites with Michonne in this episode has given up on the idea of getting back to her and has committed fully to the military. He just recently like 10 minutes prior to getting on the helicopter. 10 seconds ago yeah.

[00:10:43] He was on the helicopter and he's like I'm fully committed to the military now. I think the reasons behind this ultimately are that he feels or understands that Okafor knows about Rick's family, he knows roughly where he could find them, he's seen some strange

[00:11:05] things happen, he knows that there are secrets upon secrets and he thinks it's safer for them if he doesn't try and find them anymore or try and go back. So that is my understanding of what is happening. Have I misunderstood anything? Listeners write in. No.

[00:11:23] Everything you just said I talk about in a couple different points and some of it in more detail. So I guess I'll just say that for now everything you said sounds right on to me. Yeah. Cool. How about you? What is your number one?

[00:11:41] My first one since it's so great to see Rick my first point is let's give Rick a hand. Oh my god I have thoughts about this. Do you know Reddit was going, I didn't talk about this in the podcast but Reddit was going

[00:11:57] wild about this before it aired. It was like. Like saying what? It was like he doesn't have a hand. I've looked at the trailer, I stopped the screen, he's cut his hand off.

[00:12:05] Like everyone was obsessed about whether or not he was going to have his hand cut off because in the comics Rick gets his hand cut off by the governor early on. Early on.

[00:12:15] They've said in the show repeatedly the reason they didn't do it was because it was going to be a pain in the ass to film with with green screen constantly. Yeah but Andrew Lincoln was up for it though.

[00:12:24] Well evidently because I think that's the reason they went for it and I. I mean they don't bother with green screen they just put something over it. Which they've learned with the many other limbless characters over the years.

[00:12:37] It's much more sustainable in a limited series I would say. Yes but we had Aaron you know and Merle for a whole season there. True true but like Andrew Lincoln I fully believe pushed for this.

[00:12:52] I 100% because I remember him saying that he quite wanted that to have happened because he thought it would be an interesting challenge. Yeah. So I'm like well you know what we went for.

[00:13:02] It's interesting that he lost his hand trying to escape and so did Merle and I wonder if that's you could see it as karma for Rick in a way. I don't know maybe that's a bit of a stretch but. No no I think there's an argument for that.

[00:13:16] So I mean I was shocked. I was um it happened really quick in the beginning of the episode and I was confused I think in part in denial. Like before you have a chance to think I'm like no what.

[00:13:30] No he's not he's trying to chop off his restraint right. But then that would be the logical thing to do. Well I meant like the cuff right. Because it's right there. I'm like he's trying to chop the cuff off and then I'm like well don't chop the cuff

[00:13:43] off just chop the cable off and then and then I'm like oh no no he's actually chopping his hand off and then I'm like still what about the cable. I cannot. Lucy kept like I try not to talk about the episode before but she kept writing to you

[00:13:57] over text what why did you chop the cable. I'm so upset by this. I'm like because then I watched it again I was like well maybe it was like a special cable and like well it was metal but the axe was hot. It would just try. Try.

[00:14:10] Give it a shot. You're absolutely dim anyway. I mean my you know like if Randy were to call in with the no prize I would think that he would say Rick knows that that cable is extra heavy duty and it would make sense for

[00:14:23] the CRM if they're going to bother to put him on a leash not to give him the tool that could easily cut that off right. But I'm still so so I think that's it right. He just he just knew.

[00:14:35] But man you'd think you'd at least try a couple of swats at it first. Also like I just it was so pointless like with two seconds it was like that didn't work at all. Great. Like I know.

[00:14:46] I mean I kind of like one reason why I liked that they did this is because I mean it really shows that the writers know the kind of determination that we want to see because. Oh yeah.

[00:15:02] Personally I'm like Rick hasn't seen his daughter in years and I want to know that he's been trying and and this shows how fucking desperate he is to get back. He's taking this huge risk where he will almost certainly just immediately be caught and he is.

[00:15:19] But that's how desperate he is that he'll he'll try this you know. And I think it was a good storytelling thing for him to do as hard as it was to see and

[00:15:29] it was fun is a weird word to way but because the comic you know we know that there's a similarity there. It's heartbreaking. I mean I made me think of a story King Stephen King story that I don't want to say because

[00:15:45] I don't want to spoil it but there's a Stephen King series of books that I love and the hero loses his hand in the second one. And I remember reading that going what no no no how you can't grow that back.

[00:16:00] And then the series continued on and I got comfortable with it and thought it was great. The idea of it being interesting to see how a hero deals with a permanent and severe loss like this.

[00:16:13] Then it happened to Rick in the Walking Dead comic and I was sort of prepped for it. I think I did have that moment of no no no but then I was like OK OK it'll be interesting to see.

[00:16:23] And these days I actually think it's good representation for people with disabilities to have something like this happen. This is a little bit of an aside but I recently kind of realized that I have a disability.

[00:16:37] I mean I always knew I had amblyopia which means I can't see very well out of one eye but but so lazy. You know but it seemed like a fairly minor inconvenience but there was this VR thing

[00:16:48] that I can't do and I can't see the 3D movies and I was I'm like oh I guess I have it's a small one but I have a kind of disability. Anyway I think it's interesting to have a loss like this for a hero that you can't come

[00:17:04] back from. And now that he got that cool like attachment that's in the shape of a hard fist with the knife that comes out he's almost even more lethal because of it you know. Aha. Well look at Aaron with his like mace hand.

[00:17:17] And also the other story I was thinking of was Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones. Oh yeah I forgot about that. Because in the books that's like the making of him is he loses the thing that makes him who he is and he becomes a better person.

[00:17:32] Yeah and it's his dominant hand there. And I on second watch I'm like he better not have chopped off his dominant hand and he didn't. It was his left hand. Yeah. Because it was his choice.

[00:17:42] I think he was I thought he was wearing a watch the first time I watched it and I was like oh no the nice watch and then I was like probably not they probably took that. He's like let me get this watch off really quick so I can.

[00:17:52] Just one sec just one sec. Just let me fiddle with it. But yeah it was it was brutal but it was such a good way to emphasize the stakes of like how difficult it was to get away. And the desperation that he had to get away.

[00:18:05] And he joins a pretty big group of other Walking Dead characters who've lost limbs and body parts over the years. I tried to find most of them. Merle cut off his own hand. Herschel lost his leg after a zombie bite at the jail. Chopped that off right.

[00:18:24] The governor lost an eye. Herschel's revenge. Yeah. Herschel's revenge. Things like that. The governor lost an eye in that fight with Michonne with the zombie heads in the tanks. She stabbed him with a piece of glass. Michonne actually I had totally forgotten this chopped off Tyrese's arm.

[00:18:42] This is a very morbid list by the way sorry guys but. Oh yeah. Chopped off Tyrese's arm after he got bitten but it was too late. Yeah it spread. Bob had his leg amputated by the termites. You're eating tainted meat. Tainted meat.

[00:18:58] Carl lost an eye when Ron shot him. Fucking Ron. Aaron lost his arm after it was crushed under a pile of logs. Father Gabriel I guess lost his eye or at least the use of it because of infection.

[00:19:14] And of course Tara ate it and Henry lost their heads. You missed one. Lydia. Lydia lost her arm. Holy shit. How did I not even remember that? Right in the last couple of episodes. Aaron amputates it. Oh shit. I totally forgot about that.

[00:19:34] Well good thing I'm here then. I know. And then on fear there's Alicia. Her arm. Oh yeah. Sorry. It's not funny. It's just a bit funny because it's fear. It's ridiculous. Because she uses her own skeleton hand as an appendage. So dumb. So dumb.

[00:19:52] See if Rick had done it though we'd be like oh that's so cool man. And then actually there's one from a game but I don't want to spoil in case people haven't played the game. But anyway. Pretty momentous thing. Yeah. What do you got next?

[00:20:07] Well I had like a whole thing on Rick fucking Grimes. So it was just really good to see him again. I'm just looking at so many notes for this. I went hard on writing a lot of things here.

[00:20:25] So when the episode opens we see him at like a super low ebb. Like he's about to attempt to take his own life and then we flash to five years before the bridge. Five years after the bridge sorry where he's on this voluntary mission to save some crops.

[00:20:40] Five years before the bridge would have been good. Five years before the bridge would have been wild ride. A wild ride. Laurie's like you never talk. You don't talk Rick. I think I'm going to have sex with Shane now. I've just written Rick does the dumbest shit ever.

[00:20:54] Cut the fucking wire you absolute unit. But I take it like it was still good. I will suspend my disbelief about that. You have to. Because it's not that he made a mistake. It's that he couldn't. It wouldn't have worked. It has to be. No.

[00:21:09] It has to be. It has to be otherwise he's going to be feeling really fucking stupid. I thought his accommodation at the CRM was very nice. I was like oh that's the nicest room that he's had but he's all alone so it's not as much of a problem.

[00:21:20] Yeah it was very, it felt dystopian. It really did. I'm just having a look through. So we see, I've decided that like rage Rick is going to be called red Rick and we kind

[00:21:31] of see a bit of red Rick when he's galing zeds at the wall because he usually ends up red and covered in blood. So we get to see red Rick which was a nice return when he's killing all the zeds at the wall.

[00:21:42] We also see slumpy Rick sometimes when Rick is like depressed or overwhelmed he slumps against the wall and sort of thinks deeply. So we got a slumpy Rick as well. So that was a nice return. And we also got drunk Rick.

[00:21:53] I love a bit of drunk Rick when he was drinking his whiskey and Thorin comes into the room to show him that Oma has been destroyed on television. So three classic Ricks. It was just lovely to catch up with him.

[00:22:08] I liked seeing his relationships with the people around him and this kind of power struggle with Okafor. I find his relationship with Thorin quite interesting. She wasn't a character I particularly warmed to, but she seems to be the one who finally

[00:22:24] persuades Rick to give up and he burns everything. He burns his letters, he burns… I don't know where he's getting the iPhones but he's burning them. I know. There's like maybe they just don't work anymore so people don't care about them.

[00:22:37] But she's like in parallel with him but slightly ahead of him, sort of leading him. I would say they're both A's, they're rebels and she's made the kind of decisions that we're seeing Rick then decide to give up trying to get away and to align with the CRM

[00:22:57] and that secrecy really is the safest way to go and everything. He has a classic kind of, I would say it's slightly Gimpley monologue about farm life and his life growing up on a farm.

[00:23:13] Now the only issue I have with this, and this is really nitpicky of me and I'm sorry everyone I really did like this episode but I'm just going to nitpick this, is have we ever heard about Rick growing up on a farm before? I can't remember.

[00:23:27] Because I really feel like it should have come up before now given that they live on a farm. And he became a farmer for a time. That's true, well maybe then it makes a little more sense that he became a farmer because he had some experience.

[00:23:40] It would explain a lot more about or adds a layer of depth to his relationship with Herschel as well. Yeah I don't disbelieve it, you know. If it had been like he used to work in IT it was reasonable that I might be a little like what?

[00:23:54] When I worked at Silicon Valley and you're like bitch I worked at Silicon Valley. I was at Apple for 10 years. I got all these iPhones. I designed this iPhone and you're like, Sheriff!

[00:24:07] So the story that he tells is about his father essentially raising the farm for the good of the family so like destroying the home, well not the home but destroying the land and himself because he ends up very scarred.

[00:24:21] It seemed like he kind of, I don't know if he planned that part. Yeah. Or you mar yourself just to make it look good or what? Yeah, so I think right there is maybe talking about how he's doing the same now.

[00:24:34] He's raising the ground for the good of his family and the world and he sort of says that in the letters to Michonne, you know, I'll save the world even if you don't know that it was me that did it kind of thing.

[00:24:46] So it's quite a nihilistic story in a way. Well I think we've seen from other shows, Fear, World Beyond and this show that the CRM is all about sacrifice and even Beale when he's talking to Rick, you know, how did you survive an ego sacrifice?

[00:25:03] And when we saw Isabel in Fear the Walking Dead it's like yeah this is all for the future. It's nothing for ourselves. And they're not afraid to kill and also secrecy. Those are like the two tenets of the CRM, secrecy and sacrifice.

[00:25:19] And so it's so important to keep our mission and that their mission is to bring the world back to where it was before the zombie apocalypse. So in order to do that they need to keep their mission a secret so that no one will threaten

[00:25:31] them or derail them and they need to be okay with making sacrifices. And so I think this is where Rick is finding some alignment with that, some way to relate to it. And that's what this story has in common with it that his father did this sacrificial thing

[00:25:50] by raising their crops and burning down their house and everything. And that ended up the crops came back better than ever next year. They got a new house and a new barn. And so it ended up being for the good of all, you know.

[00:26:04] I don't know why he couldn't have. I guess he had to keep it a secret because then the insurance wouldn't have paid. I don't know. Yeah. I was like, well your dad made some insurance for out there, Rick.

[00:26:14] But he did say he thought he was the most honest man I ever knew. So I thought that was kind of interesting, especially, you know, because of the rewatch we're doing, we're seeing like almost like baby Rick, like still has morality.

[00:26:27] Still not, you know, he always has morality, but it still has that kind of black and white way of looking at things. We've talked a lot about Rick recently because we've been doing this rewatch.

[00:26:35] If you guys are just listening to us coming back to us now, we are halfway through season two on our rewatch. Might be fun to go back and listen to that. But we've talked a lot about Rick and how at first he was a protector of all, maybe

[00:26:52] to the point of it being a flaw because he would go off and try to get this racist a-hole Merle save him in Atlanta and leave his wife and son unprotected. Right.

[00:27:03] And over the years on the show, that circle of care has shrunk down to the people very nearest to him and he will not give a shit about anybody else as long as he can keep them safe.

[00:27:14] So now I feel like one really interesting thing about this show is they get Rick to a place where he buys into the idea that I can't be with the people that I care about because that will put them in danger.

[00:27:26] So I either I'm going to kill myself or find a purpose and his purpose ends up being now that he's totally detached from anyone he cares about, widening that circle of care

[00:27:36] back out to the whole world that I think the idea of the CRM wanting to save the world appeals to that part of Rick that's been core to him since the beginning, being a protector, being a savior to borrow a phrase. So I think it's interesting.

[00:27:54] It really does fit in with his character more than I gave this whole CRM thing credit for until now. I think they've done a really convincing job of why he hasn't come back.

[00:28:04] Like I think that was the thing is the stakes going in were pretty high of like you're going to need to really sell it to us how Rick Grimes has not come back to his wife and kids. And I think they have.

[00:28:14] I don't, but I'm suspending my disbelief. I think they've come pretty close, but I still like when Michonne and Rick are face to face at the end there, I would expect Rick to be like Michonne, let's get the fuck out of here. Not like, you know, I've changed.

[00:28:30] I've thought about it and I realized that to save the world, I need to be a part of this secret organization and I can't be with you anymore, which I suspect is that we're going to see some version of that.

[00:28:40] And I don't think I'll believe it, but we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Maybe they just like jump each other and the next episode is just R rated and we're like, whoa, okay. Holy shit. I just tried to look.

[00:28:54] I liked that he shouted, we fight to the line. Now it reminded me of we fight to the fence from Terminus. So nice little Rick. Great flashback there. And I thought I liked that they didn't.

[00:29:09] So I know we both had kind of mixed feelings about the snapshot of Rick that we got at the end of the main show finale. I like that it wasn't for nothing and that they tied it in a little bit.

[00:29:20] I like that they referred back to the letter about him, you know, I see the dead or I think of the dead. And now him saying, I just see what's ahead because they had a hell of an arc to fit into one episode here.

[00:29:29] So seeing him kind of do the sort of Star Wars pyre of burning all the letters and the iPhones and things like that was pretty, pretty impactful. And his fight with Okafor I think was, I like the physical combat in this is quite good.

[00:29:45] Like I like the training montage and people sort of flipping each other over and things like that. That that is kind of close hand combat is quite fun to watch. Yeah, I love that.

[00:29:54] And they're all in formation and it just was great just seeing him be a part of this organization that we've seen be so lethal where they're wearing these black cool outfits with that three pronged gun, you know, and him just commanding forces. It's like, whoa.

[00:30:10] And I was thinking now, like at the beginning of the series in the pilot, Rick sees this helicopter way off in the distance. And then, you know, we see more helicopters a few times and then he gets taken away in a helicopter and now he's flying the helicopter.

[00:30:23] I know. I mean, that was a little I was a bit like when you just steal a helicopter and fly back to Alexandria. Yes. No, I mean, they'd find him. They'd like track him or something. That's what. Yeah, I think there's reasons.

[00:30:34] It's just because of reasons and him kind of screaming that his wife is his choice and his daughter is his choice. But that turn when he realizes that the family are compromised and that it would be easy for them to track Michonne and to track Judith is.

[00:30:48] Yeah, it's stakes. It's high stakes. I did find it. I find it quite funny that in his conversation with Esteban, Esteban's like make some joke like what you're going to join the military and use that as an excuse to escape or something.

[00:31:04] And Rick genuinely looks like, oh my God, that's an amazing idea. I never thought of that. That was a little hard to believe that he never thought of it. He turned around and he's like, is that really the first time he's thought of that?

[00:31:17] And I'm like, they're really framing it as though it is. So I'm going to go with yes. It was brilliant. But yeah, that's kind of my stuff about Rick. It was just good to see him. My whole point was just entitled Rick fucking Grimes because he's back baby.

[00:31:30] Yeah. I like to see I was thinking, would he really? Because like on Fear when they have big time jumps and it seems like not much has developed during that time, it bothers me or on any show.

[00:31:45] And so knowing that he's been there for five years or whatever, I'm like, wouldn't he have made some connections at this point? So I was glad to see that he had a friend, Esteban, you know, be a stand in for all that. And I love that.

[00:31:58] It's like, oh, can I? Oh, you got a stuff. Can I touch it? And Rick just gives it this glare. I will say this many times. Esteban spin off now. I want to see it. I want to see a day in Esteban's life. He's great. I love him.

[00:32:12] No notes. He's probably going to die horribly, but no notes. I love him. Well, let me I'll do my segment on where Rick's head is at throughout this. It'll probably overlap with a lot of what you said, but we'll see.

[00:32:24] So first off, I like that they're really aware on this show of the questions we've had, like where have you been and have you why haven't you come back? Because the first words out of his mouth were I tried. Yeah. As if he's answering us.

[00:32:40] It kind of reminds me of when it was revealed that Dante was a traitor. And then you and I were like, well, what about this and this and this? And then the next episode, they answered all those questions in like the first five minutes. Yeah.

[00:32:51] We're like, oh, that was surprisingly cool. Okay. Yeah. All right. No, no, it's cool. Thanks. This episode was sort of like that. And we see how desperately he wants to be back with Michonne and his people and how

[00:33:05] hard he tried and then come to the conclusion that he needs to give up and align himself with the CRM. That's the arc of this episode. So how desperately he wants to be back, he'll cut off his hand to get back.

[00:33:18] When he realizes he can't go back, he's contemplating killing himself. He's drawing sketches. You know, it makes sense now why he did all that because he's just has them on his mind and writing letters that he's not sure she'll ever get.

[00:33:36] And I'm sure we'll cover this in another point, but I think just daydreaming or whatever those dreams are about Michonne is all about just where his head's at and trying to keep that love and that spark and that hope alive and everything. Yeah.

[00:33:49] And he tried to escape five times. So what's keeping him there and aligned with the CRM by the end, he sees that it's hard or impossible to escape for one. He's failed four times. And this woman, Pearl, she thanks him for showing her that she can't get away.

[00:34:12] So which is a dubious honor. You know, it's like her seeing what he's gone through has convinced her. No, we're stuck here. And then also, even if you do escape, they'll come after you and kill the people that you care about. That's what I got from this.

[00:34:27] That seems to be it. When he says to Pearl, when he's trying to escape through the waterways or whatever, the sewage sewers or whatever, and then he decides to help this girl and she sees it. And he says, you said to ask for help. I'm asking.

[00:34:43] And she said, I am helping you. He would have found you and whoever you're running to. He knows about you. Grimes now come on. So the implication is that if he did go home, he could endanger all his people.

[00:34:53] Then later, Okafor pretty much tells him that he says he intercepted that note that we saw that you were just talking about at the walking finale of Walking Dead. And then it sounds like he went and found out about Michonne because he says her name wasn't is unusual.

[00:35:09] Right? Yeah, I think Rick must have written some reconnaissance. I think Rick must have written Michonne on the letter. But but he Yeah, but he found the letter. Oh, so you think he just knew it was from Rick because he'd heard that name before?

[00:35:24] Because I thought the implication was that he actually he went to the area and he found out something about Michelle. No, I think it was from the letter in the bottle because he loved chat because they love seen him throwing the stuff when the play.

[00:35:37] Yeah, I'm just saying he got the letter. He read the name Michonne. And then I thought maybe he found out maybe about Michonne from that. But maybe he was just saying that he connected it with Rick because of the name.

[00:35:48] Either way, it sounds like well, he says, you know, they would have sent me to clean up my mess and finally erase you. You're my charge. I'm the one who'd have to kill you and Michonne and anyone else you ran to out there just knowing about this.

[00:36:03] So he's pretty clearly saying that if Rick did get away, that Rick and the people he cares about would probably be killed. It makes me kind of wonder if Okafor told the CRM about Michonne and all that. He didn't say he did.

[00:36:21] Because if not, Rick could just kill Okafor and then run away. Okafor has exploded. He's dead now. Yeah, I think we have to assume that the CRM knows. Right? At least that's what I think. I took it the other way because I feel like he…

[00:36:37] Okafor is off on his own thing. I know. But the big thing we're forgetting in all of this is Jadis knows all this. Oh yeah, that's true. But like, is she going to tell? And she's going to be on the show too. Yeah, she's in the credits.

[00:36:50] Yeah, that's true because she feels aligned with Rick. So I'm a little unclear on that, but it makes more sense to me that it would be another thing keeping Rick there if he thought that if he left the people would be in danger.

[00:37:02] And now that Okafor is dead, I would assume that he thinks the rest of the CRM still would be able to find him and the people he cares about. Yeah, I do think so because they'll have known where he was picked up from and they'll

[00:37:17] have Jadis there to ask as well. So yeah. Yeah, I think so. I was surprised she wasn't in this episode. I mean, yeah, yeah. Looking forward to some Pollyanna McIntosh, but no. She'll be there. Hopefully it won't just be like a cameo.

[00:37:31] Another thing that helps keep him decided to stay there is that the CRM does what they're doing out of seemingly noble intentions. They're trying to bring the world back and they think secrecy is crucial to that mission. And I think this Omaha thing is really important.

[00:37:49] A community of 90,000 was attacked and killed apparently by the CRM enemies because they didn't keep their existence a secret. At least that's what Pearl says. They should have seen it coming. Omaha let people know who they were and then they died.

[00:38:03] So she takes it as that is a sign that keeping everything they're doing a secret keeps them alive and Rick Rick that helps him. Well he has to buy into it at least somewhat that secrecy is the right way to go and that

[00:38:17] there's merit to the CRM being so strict about people not being able to leave. They're so strict to the point that they'd kill Rick's people if he went back to them. And so it's major Department of Suspension disbelief to believe that he would align himself

[00:38:33] with a group who made that kind of a threat. But the idea behind the CRM is they believe that they're doing what they have to to safeguard the future of humanity sacrifice, you know, so if he can buy into that idea that we have

[00:38:46] to sacrifice in order to save the world and this is what that means. I think by the end he has bought into that. Yeah. And do you think do you think the CRM are like live and let live if their resources

[00:39:03] aren't getting compromised so because they know that Rick's come from a community. So why have they not gone in and done it? Because the other thing that makes me wonder about this is we had a conversation in the

[00:39:17] car about whether or not the CRM know about the Commonwealth and I'd forgotten that Lance talks about the bigger picture when he's talking to Eugene about things. So I'm like could it be the case that they know about the Commonwealth but because the

[00:39:31] Commonwealth is self-sustaining they just kind of leave them to it? I mean on the news report talking about Omaha the reporter says something like Omaha is one of three existing cities on the continent or populations or something but that could just be propaganda.

[00:39:52] It could be the CRM not wanting to reveal what they know, you know, so I don't know if they know about the Commonwealth. Basically what I'm seeing is I think that there should be a Lance Hornsby cameo in this series and if there's no I'm quitting.

[00:40:07] So either it's gonna be a flashback or he'll be a lump. Flashback, sex scene, I mean whatever they want to throw at me I'll watch so yeah. So another thing that's got him aligned with them is that as part of the CRM he thinks

[00:40:24] he can help save the world and bring it back to what it was including the people he cares about you know he says to Okafor if I'm an A if I think for myself why do you even think

[00:40:33] I'm gonna go along with all this and he goes because I believe if either one of you him or Pearl had a chance to save the world you would and that's appealing as I said to that

[00:40:42] protector side of Rick that wants to help everyone and so now if he can only he can help keep everyone safe but also if he can only keep his people safe by being nowhere near them then he'll do that.

[00:41:00] He says you know I'll keep you safe even if you didn't know I did it or something like that about Michonne in that final letter. And so then yeah in that last letter he says I thought about ending it just stopping it

[00:41:12] all but then it would just be nothing wouldn't it all of it for nothing but I still decided to die and I think by that he means giving up on seeing his people so he's sort of a

[00:41:21] part of him is dying and he says that's his last letter he says he's not gonna see he goes I don't see you anymore I just see what's ahead metal rotors and gun oil and blood what

[00:41:31] I have to do what I can do to help save the world even if you don't know I ever did that I love you so much please just know I tried and then burns the letters which is really sad. Would an iPhone burn?

[00:41:42] I was like Jason will know the answer to this would an iPhone can you burn an iPhone? It would release toxic fumes into the air. I would laugh if Rick was like I have finally decided to commit and then he blows the whole

[00:41:54] thing up and he's like ah shit. And then that story at the end I think about the farm just really shows that he's been thinking about it and finding a place where he can relate to the CRM's mission of sacrifice

[00:42:11] and secrecy and to doing things that seem destructive but are for the eventual greater good you know yeah twisting himself and not to align with these fuckers mission yeah mental gymnastics yeah and so I think it's a really interesting development actually for Rick to decide to

[00:42:35] genuinely take up the mission of the CRM and I want to believe it even more but I think they did about as good of a job as they could of setting it up so we believe yeah you know

[00:42:50] like I said I still am not sure I believe it but um I'll suspend my disbelief. I was also surprised that they the two of them met at the end of this episode that was that

[00:43:01] was a nice surprise I thought it was going to be you know drawn out more. I'm glad it wasn't and I think you know we played a clip from an interview from Danai Greer last week and she was talking about things that happen that people won't expect

[00:43:15] and that was definitely one of them it was like oh they're on opposing sides. Yeah I'm like they're yeah they're fucking in the same scene I'm so pleased about this um amazing okay well I want to talk a little bit I think I'll do what I understand about

[00:43:33] the CRM world for listeners who may like me have been a bit confused um so consignees can become citizens of the city after six years it seems like they win brownie points for doing missions because the mission that we see Rick on is voluntary that's made clear

[00:43:51] with the voiceover. That's what they say yeah. Yeah Philadelphia has become in essence a secret hidden city of hundreds of thousands something Rick says that I don't super understand is that the city is separate from the army

[00:44:06] the city governs itself and I'm like how does that work if the army are the ones who are deciding who comes in and who comes out so I don't know if the army just supervise

[00:44:15] the consignee program or whatever um yeah I think so before it seems to be part of the military. The city has its own government and the only thing that they well I don't know if it's

[00:44:30] the only thing but it sounded like one of the things that they agree to is to try to keep themselves secret so they can't really leave I guess yeah and oak forest seems to

[00:44:41] be part of the military but he has his own agenda which we learn a little bit more about it um no one allegedly no one wants to escape apart from Rick so they weren't sure what

[00:44:51] to do with him because there's no escape for the living we learned about A's and B's and I did laugh when Rick said fucking A's and B's because I think we've probably said that

[00:45:00] on the podcast before um A's are strong leaders who are sent away and killed and that is said in the episode that's not a spoiler yep but how they're killed is kind of interesting

[00:45:12] how they're killed is unknown at this point um B's are normal unless you watch Rovio right B's are compliant uh they're taken in and sent to be consignees um you can climb high if you choose to join the military and get what they call echelon briefings um which

[00:45:29] tell you about the upper workings of everything and you know more than 90 percent of any of the other CRM and more than 100 percent of the uh city people we also learn a bit of

[00:45:42] CRM history about the cities being napalmed at the start of the apocalypse philly was not and we learned that this was thanks to oak for switching sides and napalming instead the marines including his wife that's dark right and that's another instance of aligning

[00:46:01] with that idea of sacrifice to help the greater good you know sacrifice his own wife to help the citizens of philadelphia estelle estelle um you can get furlough days into the city if you're a consignee um estaban mentions this to rick when rick is wearing an absolutely

[00:46:23] disgusting outfit rick grimes did not look fit in that shirt i'm sorry um just putting that out there for anyone who's watching this for that um and we know from something rick says well two things he says really obliquely there are secrets upon secrets upon secrets

[00:46:40] so i get the feeling there's some secrecy going on but also he says to okafor um something about okafor as bombers going out and not coming back and okafor being covered in blood

[00:46:49] so rick clearly sees that there's some kind of other agenda being enacted at various points so from this episode not taking into account things we've picked up in in other shows that is my

[00:47:02] understanding of the crm world and at the head of it is major general beal who we meet briefly in this episode um who talks a little about the napalming of the cities and how that how it was

[00:47:15] that philly uh was protected from that yeah and he reveals something we didn't know that the crm sounds like it's an evolution of the pennsylvania national guard that's what he was a part of

[00:47:30] he also says that philadelphia or the secret city is um naturally well protected or like it's naturally quite well hidden i don't really know geography so i'm quite intrigued about that

[00:47:41] i might go and look it's at the convergence of two rivers and it looked like they were maybe deliberately not beautify or not taking care of anything the buildings look kind of decayed

[00:47:55] and overgrown still yeah so maybe from a distance it would look like it was uninhabited but it's still major department of suspension of disbelief to me that you could keep a major u.s city a secret

[00:48:09] for 12 years i mean yeah i ain't got a reply for that i will say shout out to my brother-in-law phil who is from philadelphia go eagles yeah i know and no one made fun of him for that before he

[00:48:26] married peter's sister i'm like what a waste um i know i was like your whole life nobody made fun of you for that um uh yeah so that was my understanding of the crm situation let me see so i

[00:48:39] have a point about them let me see if i have anything extra to add that they're the civic republic military and their overarching mission is to bring the world back to what it was before the

[00:48:48] za based in philadelphia which is known as the civic republic the civic republic is part of an alliance with two others uh rick said early on the military found two other cities portland and

[00:48:59] omaha not as big not as sophisticated and not keeping themselves secret all three cities became an alliance even though two don't know where the third is um we learned yeah let's see uh when rick's

[00:49:11] talking to beal he says i saw what federal forces did to atlanta they used napalm sir it was weird to hear him deferring to beal but i think he was just i find that dynamic really strange sir yes

[00:49:25] because he seemed like genuinely like oh oh it's general beal and it was so weird to see like that but we had heard him say in his thought monologue that he was just going to be playing along until

[00:49:37] he could escape so i assume he was acting there which is weird to think of him acting you know you're making me think of team america when the guy's like i will save you with my acting

[00:49:49] it's just it's not rick to be no subservient like that anyways i mean they both have like silver fox vibes maybe he was just overcome by karyo quinn's like i love lost baby blues

[00:50:02] he's like i love lost you're amazing in that like yeah uh so he said they used napalm and beal said monsters worse than the delts i guess delta force but this force as the pennsylvania

[00:50:13] national guard at the time we stopped them how sacrifice look calm which is another word that rick uses later when he's adopted the aligned himself with the crm and okofor and tells you

[00:50:26] know what he's just said ok for did another thing about them they bring new people in and those people aren't allowed to leave and rick said another point security and secrecy above all

[00:50:36] that's the army's code so no one can leave ever and he said the people they rescue which i'm like rescue isn't more like enslave um work in the outskirts killing walkers for energy growing food

[00:50:47] or managing the water and waste and that's what we saw him doing i guess there were walkers on fire that were threatening the food stores and the consignees were there to get rid of them all

[00:50:59] when rick chopped off his hand yep ruining that mission forever when i'll be okay i think the crops were saved and uh i think sylis was a consignee by the way i'm kind of hoping we

[00:51:14] might get sneaky little side yeah so then after six years yeah they get to go into the city i i was looking up the word consignee because to consign something is to deliver it to a person's

[00:51:26] custody and then normally the consignee is the person you've delivered it to but in this case i think consignee means one who has been consigned or in other words slave you know and and that the enslavement is all about the secrecy it's it's because once you know about

[00:51:45] the crm you either need to be um killed so you won't tell anyone else or kept there and that's why they only want bees because the bees are the compliant ones and they just don't want anyone

[00:51:56] knowing they exist because anyone who knows about them could turn into a threat so uh that's about all i had what else do you want to move on to another point or can i move on to another point

[00:52:06] since yeah absolutely about that so let's talk about okofor yes so he gives he's the one who gives the clearest delineation ever of what a's and b's are he says the crm designates people they

[00:52:23] find as a's and b's a's have a strength a's would die for what they believe in people follow a's the people we cross in the world the few we bring in they're classified as b's everyday people who

[00:52:34] are just trying to survive b's get in a's are sent away and killed so it really basically does mean alphas and betas i think that's why they used those letters you know and just to

[00:52:47] remind everybody the crm originally was told by jadis that rick was a b uh she we reminded you last time that in an episode of world beyond she told someone i had someone special i had an a but

[00:53:02] i said he was a b so he wouldn't end up in this lab i owed him that much but okofor clearly sees rick as an a it's not even mentioned that he was brought in as a b right and i think it just became

[00:53:15] clear when he tried to escape four times and chopped off his hand little things little indications here and there that he wasn't compliant you know yeah non-compliant and

[00:53:25] pearl too who tried to kill okofor um and he says rick tells ok for when he tried to escape the first time the army didn't know what to do with me and oak forces because no one tries no one wants to

[00:53:38] that's because they're all b's and um i think rick is the only one with a leash on i was trying to see in that scene where he has that leash i think because he kept trying to escape but no one else

[00:53:50] has a leash right and then when okofor said you know they're sent away and killed except for you two pearl says why and he says me the crm needs to change the crm needs strong leaders to change them

[00:54:05] being the monster to fight the monsters that can't last this is why i need the two of you so he's kind of saying crm is the monster that fights the monsters and he thinks that he doesn't really

[00:54:17] say how too much but he says he wants to change the inside and he thinks i think he thinks that he wants strong leaders rather than obedient followers and that the crm would be less of

[00:54:31] a dictatorship that's my guess about it you know more people driven little does he know that if you get rick involved you're risking bringing about a ricktatorship but uh didn't teach you that in your cold war textbook that's right you don't know what you're asking for uh

[00:54:49] so when pearl and and rick act out okofor has stood up for them keeping them from going to jail or being killed and recruits them both in the crm puts them on the leadership track

[00:54:59] where eventually they'll go into this upper echelons learn all the secrets and what i'm a little confused on is so beal when he meets with rick he he knows that i think okofor is an a2

[00:55:12] beal knows that rick is an a because he knows that rick's tried to escape and then okofor stood up for him but okofor is doing that because he wants to change the crm from the inside but why is he

[00:55:22] telling what is he telling beal why when he stands up for rick what is he saying i want to change the crm from the inside no he's keeping that to himself so yeah it's like what what was his

[00:55:34] this guy escaped four times but no he's uh great because he has great hair so you should keep him or something i don't know just look into his steely blue eyes that's all you need to do

[00:55:46] silver right that's right and beal was suspicious like did uh do i have any reason he asked rick do i have any reason to um be worried about okofor is he doing anything that he shouldn't be and

[00:55:57] rick's like uh no with his acting he's like no no and then and then he says um you know you know i he's suspicious about rick because rick why are you you tried to escape four times

[00:56:15] why are you here he's like do you still want to escape are you with us or something like that and rick says look into my eyes and i'm like i see the eyes of a man who wants to get the

[00:56:25] fuck out of here yeah so i guess it's acting right and that was a little bit of a weak point for me like beal i don't understand why beal doesn't just be like no you should just kill

[00:56:36] these guys and go with our usual thing of keeping the bs around and getting rid of the a's i just think that was raw sexual tension it was like a silver fox off it was just like icons icons

[00:56:47] and okofor believes in the mission of the crm clearly that to bring the world back and the way they need to do that is to be secretive and be okay with sacrifice he killed his own wife and

[00:57:01] that the people doing the work probably don't get to participate in the future they're striving for at least not yet when rick mentioned something about freedom okofor says no one's free and for people like us there's no escape for the living which is a total gimpalism

[00:57:14] um it's time to accept things for what they are it cost your hand last time next time it's your life do something about it learning that he bombed atlanta and la it sort of crosses this show over

[00:57:27] with the walking dead and fear the walking dead 2 which yeah i liked the la reference i was like oh yeah yeah yeah he a couple other things about him just random things he says there's a tipping

[00:57:39] point or a reckoning coming soon and he needs rick to help with it so that i feel like that was a little seed of vagueness you know mystery which is i think fine intriguing um and then he keeps

[00:57:52] saying to rick you already made the choice that that feels so much like a gimpalism like no yeah i didn't choose anything i i want to go home yeah literally the only thing i've wanted is to go home

[00:58:05] i chose to be in the crm so i could try to escape you idiot yeah he also likes millet he likes millet he wants to grow millet in a nice place

[00:58:18] i can figure out what no okofor he's like this is millet and i'm like millet like the stuff you make bird food out of it's like a grain and then he's talking about it again on the helicopter he's like

[00:58:29] you know where you can plant that millet and i'm like this is a i don't know how i feel about this metaphor but you know um so he likes millet and there's another thing about okofor he's obsessed

[00:58:41] with bird feed he also when he said to rick this is your path to the higher echelons of power and rick said i don't want power and that's another thing we said about rick recently you

[00:58:52] know we talked about our favorite things about him he he never wanted power for the sake of power so i was i felt gratified that he just said that really loud and yeah okofor said that's the

[00:59:02] thing you already have it so that's that happens with people sometimes the people who don't want power just for the sake of power are the people that other people line up behind absolutely well

[00:59:12] one of my points was non-rashon characters because we met a few in this episode uh one of whom is okofor i don't really have much to add yeah with okofor i've done bullet points so this is what

[00:59:24] i've learned about each character okofor likes millet and wants to plant it somewhere good he wants to make the crm army better he likes army theory like he wants them to do homework about the

[00:59:34] cold war um he has a backstory about killing his wife he knows about michonne and sort of blackmails rick with that information and then he explodes i was kind of bummed i sort of was interested in him

[00:59:47] and then yeah just really gruesome death uh at the end of the episode so god i didn't invest too much um thorne her first name what's her first name sorry paula pearl pearl that's the one

[01:00:01] she likes to smash glasses um she is south african uh she's quite prickly um she tells rick that they are gone but their loved ones are not she has a kind of funny backstory and i mean

[01:00:12] literally quite humorous about poker and being a really good poker player and then making it all the way to las vegas and then getting stuck and because of the the fall um which is didn't even

[01:00:22] get to gamble because all the lights didn't even get to gamble and i've often wondered about people who were like overseas when these things happened so i think rick the weird irish lady that he meets

[01:00:32] at the start of season four has a similar story about being oh yeah stuck in transit um so thorne seems to be quite similar to rick and the two of them seem to have a kind of understanding um

[01:00:44] yes i'm interested to see where that takes him she refuses to help him though when he asks in his failed attempt to get away um but she says that she is actually helping him by keeping him alive

[01:00:55] yeah that's part of what i think convinces him is her just reinforcing all these messages that people will be in danger if you escape and stuff like that she has someone she loves but she's not

[01:01:06] gonna be able to get back to them because they're over in she's a model yeah um hang on what i meant to say she's a model for him like because i thought you meant she was like in love with

[01:01:21] a model i was like whoa i don't think the only reason she's not going back to her people is because they're overseas but also because she fears for their safety i could just be reading

[01:01:31] into that but i think the idea is yeah if we go to our loved ones they'll be in danger from the crm fair fair um mayor general beale but more of a closed book um we meet him in a silver fox

[01:01:46] stare-off um he commands some respect uh he runs the whole operation he was very much bigged up in the world beyond so he really is the the person to whom everyone is looking for

[01:01:59] i don't know authority and respect he seems to like rick seems to like looking into his eyes and i enjoyed the shot of the two of them looking at the city together i thought that was a cool

[01:02:09] visual um and i did think it was funny just these two icons of like two of the most i don't know kind of influential tv series of the last 20 years sharing a scene i was like this is

[01:02:21] cool i always thought walking dead was kind of a spiritual successor to lost like yeah lost ended in i think may of 2010 and walking dead started in october and it was my next obsession after lost

[01:02:35] you know oh it's crazy how they ran into one another that way um and finally estaban uh i've written estaban is the best character ever um he doesn't like swamp ass uh he has given a lot of

[01:02:49] exposition it is a bit like rick i've worked my six years so that i can i'm like okay yeah no we get it you work six years blah blah um but there was something very likable about that character

[01:02:58] he was clearly a friend to rick um he talks about seeing the good life over the water in the city i liked his line when rick was like i should have got you a gift and he says what a scowl because

[01:03:07] i'm like yeah that's pretty pretty right um my heart broke for him because he wanted to tell rick all about his new girlfriend but ricky doodad didn't care he was just like off thinking about

[01:03:17] his escape i know i mean they seemed like almost from two different shows oh yeah estaban's like a sitcom character yeah and they weren't really connecting but you could tell that rick thought

[01:03:30] well he's a good guy yeah and estaban's like i just really want to tell you about my girlfriend and rick's like i don't care yeah it's like if uh norm showed up from cheers or something joey from friends turns up alexandria like

[01:03:46] he does help rick out later um tells him don't fucking die um i do worry that estaban is going to be a casualty because he seems too nice and pure for this world so i'm a little bit worried

[01:03:58] about him but he he made me laugh partly through how incongruous he was with the whole tone of the episode he was just like oh man my friend especially when he wanted to touch rick's stump

[01:04:08] oh my god it was so fun i was like all right uh-huh um so those those were the main non-released i think they were the only kind of named non-released characters that we got to know um apart from the

[01:04:18] little trump girl who like screamed and ran away and ruined rick's escape plan but you know another kid stupid another kid man another kid all right well i'm going to talk about the dream flirtations that's my last point too yay cool these fantasy interludes with rick and michonne

[01:04:40] i thought because one of the things that i was more negative on on first watch but came to embrace on second was the bleakness of what you know the episode and either way these scenes really warmed up the episode and i think were a much needed contrast

[01:04:58] to the bleakness of the story um they're some of my favorite parts and i think rick and michonne had maybe better chemistry than ever here very good uh and more definitely i think more than with any

[01:05:11] other woman he's ever had on the show i think i gotta say michelle was looking damn sexy oh yeah oh my god that purple blue outfit yeah she's all done up showing a little cleavage at the end there

[01:05:25] she has this flirty smile and a glint in her eye but kind of a little like teasingly standoffish very appealing denia gareer's smile could promote world peace like it's beautiful right especially because she doesn't just give it away willy-nilly so when you do see it it's really

[01:05:43] special absolutely and what's going on i think these are rick either it's like either a full-on daydream or dream that he's conscious of or it could just be kind of like a representation of

[01:05:58] what's in his heart you know it seems to happen when he has setbacks the first one was right after he cut off his hand and got recaptured and so i think it's like deep down in his soul where he

[01:06:10] keeps the spark alive for michonne and i like that in them he's lost and looking for direction which is a metaphor you know and yeah he's like this is where i need to be pointing on the map

[01:06:20] but i don't know where i am and michonne helps him because she's his north star that's what i get out of it and then he she says to him are you where you want to be and she means in life

[01:06:31] but he smiles and says yeah meaning yes sitting here with you and she gets that and smiles too and i just love when they have little bits of dialogue like that that aren't explicative and

[01:06:41] you can tell what's the subtext going on underneath you know and walking dead does that bravo great flirtation um and then the last one there's a few in there that i won't go into detail but the last

[01:06:54] one uh right after he's decided to move on and give up on being with her and look ahead and then they're together and they kiss but it's intercut with the things that he just talked about in the

[01:07:05] future rotors and fire and zombies and the fantasies fades and he's given up and then you when he tells his barn story you realize also intercut was scenes from when his barn was on fire

[01:07:20] when he was a little kid so that reinforces that nope now i'm in sacrifice mode i'm done with yeah the idea that i get to be with the people that i care about and i'm

[01:07:31] moving towards that sacrifice mode where i'm just trying to save the world i'm so sad yeah i would never do that i'm not nice i'm like nah someone else will figure it out i'll just do me

[01:07:49] i'm a sore b i'm like probably a c if c's exist i'm like plus oh amazing well i didn't have the michonne stuff fantasyland yeah i wrote michelle's michelle michonne is like his compass yeah and i love the idea rick being anxious about being late

[01:08:11] but like he's worried about not getting back quickly enough um and the five pizzas in a wedding ring sounds like an excellent wedding to me so count me in as a yes for that um and i think

[01:08:22] yeah totally we needed that and it was nice to see the two of them together and remember the excellent chemistry that they have and when they spend quite a lot this episode apart so

[01:08:32] yeah no i love them i really like that kind of thing i have one more point should i go into it go for it then we'll do notes so these are nitpicks or things that i at least wasn't

[01:08:46] sure about on first watch uh the bleakness how bleak and tragic i i think a while back i was we were trying to figure out what is this show going to be about and i thought wow it would be

[01:08:56] depressing if the story was just rick is basically a slave for years and that's kind of what we're getting yeah called it they set it up that way but you can't really say well maybe originally

[01:09:08] they thought he would be gone for less time because i think in the very episode that he left there was like a six-year time jump at the end of that right and that's when we first see

[01:09:17] judith yes so they just built that right into the story and it's not just about being enslaved but losing hope to the point of wanting to kill himself that's kind of depressing then you know

[01:09:29] giving up on returning to his family and instead aligning himself with what may be the bad guys against michonne that's like oh man um and also just the fact that like with denia guerrera

[01:09:44] you know in michonne rick's story happened because of behind behind the scene stuff where andrew wanted to leave to be with his family in the uk but instead of killing off rick they had to think

[01:09:54] of a way to keep him alive and make it make sense that he wouldn't be with his daughter and his wife and so he's been a slave for years and chops his own hand off and wants to kill himself it's just

[01:10:05] really bleak and i was feeling kind of down on this on first watch i think most agree that the worst era of the walking dead was season seven and eight when negan had rick under his thumb and

[01:10:16] all the fights had gone out of rick and we were like come on rick fight back and so that's sort of how i was feeling about this after the first watch on second watch i liked it

[01:10:26] much better for one thing the negan stuff was 32 episodes over two years and this is six episodes over six weeks also this is the walking dead so it's there's always bleak shit happening

[01:10:41] mm-hmm like it opens with most people on the planet dying that little chestnut yeah and it is it's such a depressing situation but i like i kind of said at the beginning i think that'll

[01:10:52] just make it all the sweeter to see rick triumph over it like this episode is putting him in a really low place because you know i i talk a lot about um characters arcs and how in a really long

[01:11:06] series like the walking dead it's hard to have an arc that goes from beginning to end because we tend to want to see character growth and so over that length of time you can have characters

[01:11:19] like morgan who flip-flop back and forth or um you can have characters that stagnate and don't grow and that's no good with rick i felt like he came to a place at the end of the walking dead where

[01:11:31] he was in a good place mentally and um spiritually and everything and so this is a way to sort of knock him back a bit to give him something he needs to recover from that will be fun to watch

[01:11:47] does that make any sense no i think it does i think it does i think it's natural to feel i mean we're all so excited about it it was kind of like oh oh dark dark and it's funny when i asked peter

[01:11:57] about it i was like did you enjoy it and he was like yeah it's a very it's a dark feel to it like even that first image of like rick looking out the window with the turbines and the ominous kind of

[01:12:09] music like yeah it really set the tone but and then but then having michonne appear at the end makes me think okay hopefully we're going to get into some some kind of uplifting stuff at some

[01:12:20] point hopefully i mean i i feel like they might play it almost like he's in a cult now then he's taken on the beliefs of the cult you know yeah but stockholm syndrome as well because they have

[01:12:33] they still have five more episodes he can't i mean they need to have him go get it quick man quick um so but i'm i after second watch i'm like okay i i like the bleakness i like

[01:12:46] i want to see how he overcomes it i like that it's big stakes saving the world and it's just great to see rick again and so i'm i don't know i had a pretty big difference in how i felt about

[01:12:59] it after first and second watch i'm like totally on board now and i can't wait to go watch the next episode um the the gimple enos of it that it was created by scott gimple deniger and andrew

[01:13:09] lincoln that's how it's credited but you can feel the gimpliness for sure and gimple has written many of the best episodes of the walking dead he led the show into its most popular years and also right

[01:13:20] out of them yes but uh he there's a lot to say for him but the negatives so i don't want the negatives to outweigh the positives but i'm in a nitpicky comment section so i feel like thinking

[01:13:34] about him the thing that bugs me the most is there's often an emphasis on some quirky storytelling elements often some kind of opaque piece of dialogue like you know what it is or i had to

[01:13:48] clear or i thought he was an a but he's a b or maybe in this case you already made the choice which okofor keeps repeating to rick that feels like the characters are repeating something

[01:13:59] mysterious or opaque and that's more important than them acting like real people like yeah it's it's uh it's weird and it feels like um an indulgent writing thing especially like at first

[01:14:12] it was kind of intriguing it was very intriguing but over time i think gimple's kind of worn out his welcome with this kind of thing and it just stands out as i don't want that i want rick you

[01:14:21] know and that's why when angela kang came in and he felt more emotionally connected the characters because i think she started with character and built story around it and she didn't have these

[01:14:32] weird things and they can i mean i still i think this is not gimple at his worth i think it's maybe not gimple at his best yet but i think it's pretty good like i was gonna say i fell over that yeah i

[01:14:44] felt it could have been worse like i was like oh there's bits of it but i feel like my gimple sense is finally honed so i'm like ah once it happens i'm like no don't do that ptsd in there

[01:14:54] uh-huh i'm like stop it no explain it i feel like there was more explanation and i think for me having the meat at the end of this episode i felt safer i was like okay it's not going to be a full

[01:15:05] opaque six episodes of like right it's gonna be the scenes with the fantasy scenes with michonne and rick i feel like maybe deni garira wrote all those i feel like it best good gimple but i think

[01:15:16] probably some because they felt very like something you would see in a play and human yeah but seeing a play in a good way like in terms of like good writing and character beats and

[01:15:26] absolutely yeah no it was cool cool so so i um because i i have been a stand for gimple over the years at times and i also understand the things that don't always go over so well but i

[01:15:38] feel like this could tip either way at this point but i'm feeling like it's a good good side for the most part i think having deny in there is the third falcon wheel might be sure a bit of a savior

[01:15:51] yeah um more nitpicks so just just department of suspension and disbelief uh you'd have to accept that this organization the crm would value secrecy to the point of killing to protect it

[01:16:04] including the secrecy of this community of 200 000 people who lived in what was once a major u.s city and that they could even keep its existence a secret and um so that's something that you have

[01:16:18] to just sort of buy into go with it that they would let rick be a soldier even though he's missing a hand i remember when i was 18 and the recruiter called me and i and he was really trying to um

[01:16:32] push me on joining the army and um i talked to him just because i was curious at where it would go and then when i told him about the lazy eye that i mentioned to you earlier he just almost hung up

[01:16:45] right away it's like okay well um yeah even though i would never have joined the army i felt a little rejected like oh you're like well i want to join you now let me do it i can do it that's their tactic

[01:17:00] so um and that i and more you know even more that they specifically sort for a's and b's and he's like the aist of the a and just because okofor pushes for him oh yeah beal is like oh all right

[01:17:13] we'll give it a shot so i i hope there's more story there that makes that make sense a little bit of filler would be nice a little bit of background to fill in would be useful i think

[01:17:22] and anything else um i just think if this story had happened within the walking dead and there wasn't this behind the scenes thing with andrew lincoln needing to take time away that rick would

[01:17:36] have found a clever way to escape you know he wouldn't be held somewhere for seven years or whatever it is it's hard to believe that he'd have failed are they that arsed like i just sometimes

[01:17:47] i'm just a bit like are you that bothered about this person getting away but apparently so so yes okay um anyone it doesn't yeah it's not just rick it's nobody can leave yeah i suppose it's it's uh

[01:18:04] it's hard to buy into that but you kind of have to for to enjoy the series so that's why it's called the department of suspension of disbelief and not the department of disbelief

[01:18:16] yeah exactly all right notes um yet not many the titles are cool but i did get a little bit of fear of the walking dead flashback when i saw the kind of tv analog effect because they toyed with that

[01:18:31] a bit in fear and i was like oh but overall good yeah i like the daryl ones best so far of they were fun but yeah um we still don't know who designed the uh drawings on the iphones because

[01:18:45] the one that michonne finds has like um i think it's japanese writing on it oh and i don't think rick speaks japanese i'm gonna go out oh we had an idea for that but just forget you in the next

[01:18:56] episode he's like konichiwa we're like oh okay he's like i i studied japan in college for a couple years before i started at apple and yeah i did a year in kyoto uh yeah and you're like all right

[01:19:09] uh um so i'm intrigued to know if we find that out um this big theme that they seem to keep pushing seems to be the time being right to make the right choice like you will know when the time is

[01:19:20] right you will know what choice to make and that gets repeated a lot and i'm like yeah okay um so we'll see what time and what choice that turns out to be um and that is that's it for my notes

[01:19:33] actually i've got some spoilery info for our after show but aside from that i'm i'm good all right um so coming back to rick's story after all this time in some ways i feel like this could be more

[01:19:49] like the real ending of the walking dead that we were you can't really have the walking dead end without knowing what happens to rick and actually angelica denier i keep talking about that they

[01:19:59] wanted to do this show because they wanted to finish the narrative and um we went back to the beginning on this podcast with a rewatch but i feel like we're skipping to the end

[01:20:09] but it does seem like there's reports and i'll read more in the news that gimples open to another season if it sounds to me like they're seeing how well it does so i don't know for sure maybe

[01:20:26] maybe there's more interesting interesting we'll see um okay more notes i kind of want one of those crm consignee jackets with a stripe like on the sleeve i think it looks cool future

[01:20:42] cosplay yeah i like that too uh we see rick killing walkers as a consignee with this spear-like weapon that he shoves into their foreheads and their brains just turn to mush

[01:20:56] those we saw those weapons in world beyond a lot and rick also had one in the walking dead finale they're called kill sticks in the world beyond if you couldn't really see people listening it has

[01:21:08] this sharp kind of screw top end and you jab it straight into the zed's head and it twists its brains into mush yum i think on the blunt end it has a retractable metal loop that you can capture

[01:21:23] walkers with it's pretty cool it's like a whisk for your face that's the um marketing line that they have yeah yeah i would still work in like advertising in the crm i'd be like i just do the banter

[01:21:42] who are we kidding i'd be dead face whisks um yeah and then uh last thing per okafor rick and pearl's next mission is to help convert a college to a battle ready operating base he said

[01:21:56] all top crm commanders would convene a summit there in one year to open the base so that's an interesting thing coming up oh and they finished the yeah they finished the building of

[01:22:10] it we see it in a montage okay so they're so that must be okay i feel like you've just yeah that will be the event at which something happens i reckon yeah for sure and i wonder if that's when he'll

[01:22:22] like learn all the secrets or something in the upper echelons i think okafor said that was i could be wrong about this we don't have subtitles because we got screeners so but i think he said it

[01:22:32] was in the cascades which is a mountain range in the pacific northwest in the united states it goes through oregon which is where portland is portland is one of the three cities in the alliance

[01:22:45] of the three with the pacific republic and omaha and it's also where elton iris and asha were headed in world beyond at the end of that show so maybe we'll see them i don't know oh that'd be cute

[01:23:00] yeah that would be really cute so hang on so is rick there when we see the montage of what they're working on i don't know i need to watch it a third time because i feel like there were mountains

[01:23:15] interesting it is not has not happened yet we know that no the summit has not happened the crm yeah all right i think that's good we'll take a little break there's a little bit more to

[01:23:26] come stay with us obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens the people it kills get up and tell are they slow moving chief yeah they're dead they're all messed up this is a walking deadcast news

[01:24:18] so we're recording this before the episode has aired and so there isn't much news we will most likely do a feedback episode in a couple days here so send us in your feedback if we get enough if not

[01:24:32] then we'll just do it you know next oh i don't think next week i don't think any of our listeners will have anything i mean you never know i would presume we'll get feedback but um either way not

[01:24:43] much news so i just want to reiterate what i said before how they're kind of being cagey about whether there will be a season two uh gimple said anything is possible even if rick dies in the last

[01:24:56] episode anything is possible why would you say that gimple god gimple i have not missed this aspect and i for the first time i think i've really realized yeah that sort of opaqueness that he

[01:25:12] sometimes writes within the show is also how he handles public relations yep yep but um if it is the case that amc's waiting to green light a second season until they see how season one does and then

[01:25:28] it doesn't get a second season that's kind of sad because dead city and the daryl show both got a second season so that if they really yeah soon as well like they weren't even at the end of the

[01:25:39] seasons by the time they got recommissioned so told so if if if it is a possibility for the ones who live and then it doesn't that means they really messed it up somehow yeah you know but at

[01:25:50] this point i'm guessing it will i can't see why not although i really don't want either of them to die i know i don't want either one of them to die either i i'm okay with their story ending

[01:26:03] but i don't want it to be from a death at this point too sad i've totally turned around when i first started the walking dead being like gotta be ready for anyone to die now i'm like no no not

[01:26:14] my friends not right especially rick all right that is our show episode 565 thank you so much for listening everybody i mean that's our show except stay tuned at the end if you want to hear

[01:26:31] some spoilery talk but uh next time we'll either be doing a feedback episode in a few days or we'll answer feedback on our episode 2 coverage next week so if you want to write in or leave us a

[01:26:44] voice message about the episode you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com and while you're there please check out our other podcasts i i'm late to the party but i

[01:26:55] just started watching the fall of the house of usher on netflix i'm so late to that part the party's gonna be like sold over by the time i get around to it but i really do want to

[01:27:05] it's good it's it's i love the mike flanagan shows and this one is different enough that it's like feels really fresh but it's got that mike flanagan feel to it too and it's got a lot of the same

[01:27:18] cast members in totally different kinds of roles and it's amazing and i just listened to the first episode of rima and peck's coverage today and i'm like oh man i i got four episodes in before i was

[01:27:30] i need to go back and listen to them and i'm like i should have been listening to them the whole time because they make it so much better and i i know so much more about what the hell i'm watching

[01:27:38] now because i listen to them so all that is to say definitely check out the fall of the house of usher and also um strange indeed's coverage of that show they're really at their best when

[01:27:49] they're covering that show those shows yes and i'll say this episode's made possible by patreon supporters like jeff sharp who've pledged their support at patreon.com slash jason cabassi so thank you to jeff a stand-up guy excellent all right that is our show thanks for listening don't get

[01:28:09] bit mary k owens all right so we're still talking and that's because we're about to talk about some spoilers about this show because we watched world beyond and it gave some pretty major

[01:28:23] plot things that are relevant to this episode so if you don't want to be spoiled if you didn't hear uh if you didn't watch world beyond and you don't want to be spoiled then you should stop listening

[01:28:35] right now thanks for listening and we'll talk to you soon bye bye okay okay so what it's kind of so the news report says omaha a city of 90 000 has fallen and the crm is investigating

[01:28:53] and as we know as we mentioned in our we actually did mention this if anybody caught it in our episode last week the crm killed omaha yeah they did and i've got the fucking monologue to prove

[01:29:04] it because jadis says to the endlings two years ago the crm's modeling revealed that the alliance would soon become a drain on the civic republic's resources omaha the campus colony portland had become too reliant they'd never be fully self-sustaining so it was only a matter of time

[01:29:22] before thousands faced a famine of devastating proportions at best those thousands would have died slowly at worst disease and conflict would have spread spread through the civic republic itself and then the light of the world extinguished forever death wins we made the choice to spare them

[01:29:38] by ending it quickly for them so that there could be a chance for humanity to survive what we did to your home was mercy boom guilty and that's another just plays into the whole thing

[01:29:51] about the crm is sacrifice and brutal sacrifice in order to supposedly for the greater good and what makes it even more sinister is because they learn this through modeling or something

[01:30:06] like some scientific method and it's like oh can you really count on that that's kind of what we talked about when we watched world beyond but also i think they use this like chlorine chemical

[01:30:16] compound gas that was prolonged the time before the reanimation so they could take advantage of while they're killing all these people to get more research specimens which feeds into the mission

[01:30:28] of figuring out how to stop the zombie apocalypse and by the way that's what happens to a lot of the anyways they become part of experiments where they're bitten and turned into zeds and so people

[01:30:38] can study the transformation and things like that so it is dark shit rick who are you in bed with rick jesus and they tried i think they didn't talk about any of that in this episode and even when he

[01:30:53] was talking to beal beal came off vibe wise like he could be a good guy and so i think they're trying to get people watching thinking yeah you know maybe rick i could see why rick would align

[01:31:09] himself with a group like this because even though it's a harsh reality they are trying to do good and even with how dark you realize they are in the world beyond you could still kind of argue that but

[01:31:21] it's a lot darker though oh 100 and it's interesting i read it a bit differently from in that i thought thorne had figured it out when she was saying like um we're here and omaha are

[01:31:35] not and then in the air the airplane in the helicopter okofor also says we don't want another omaha and rick sort of looks at him and i don't know i don't even know if okofor knows at

[01:31:49] that point but it interested me as like what is he saying is he saying he knew that the crm were doing that or that the crm were unable to protect them and that's how they died i don't know so

[01:32:00] pearl said she would have seen it coming omaha let people know who they were and they died and she's yeah my take on that is that she's just seeing that as evidence that they need to

[01:32:16] keep their existence a secret so you could be right i don't know but my take is that pearl doesn't know no it was not made explicit in any way shape or form yeah i think she doesn't know that the crm is

[01:32:28] the one this that did that because otherwise why mention about keeping their existence a secret i mean i think she would be more anti-crm but i i'm not sure about okofor maybe he did know you know

[01:32:40] yeah well it'll be intriguing to see where that goes but it's weird to have this big i think it's going to be presented as a plot twist right when rick finds out that the crm killed omaha and

[01:32:54] because omaha being destroyed is one of the things that convinced him to stay i think it's like yeah look what happens when we don't keep this secrecy someone else came in and killed them um and so

[01:33:06] they're gonna have a big plot twist where it's revealed to rick that the crm did it but if you watched the other walking dead spinoff you know that so and as a podcaster i kind of hope they

[01:33:17] reveal it soon so we don't have to keep pretending not to know what to keep being like whatever happened to omaha oh no i wonder what happened um yeah i mean you could read it that rick might

[01:33:29] suspect and he thinks that they'll do that to alexandria but i don't think that's what the i don't think that that's what the narrative is telling us i don't think so i think he's like

[01:33:40] yes i want to help save the world here yeah you know and beal seems like a good guy or something i don't know i understand why he's doing what he's doing um the other only other thing that i have is

[01:33:52] just what came up when you mentioned the relationship between the crm and the civic republic and from what i remember the civic republic aka philadelphia was self-governing and the crm was like a separate institution but they had a relationship but the

[01:34:10] i think the civ the crm was starting to encroach on the civic republic sovereignty or something and there was conflict there there was some kind of unrest for sure yeah yeah and they also haven't

[01:34:23] mentioned the campus colony which was kind of like an offshoot of omaha um it i mean i don't think they're not mentioning it for any specific reason i think it's essentially just a part of omaha but

[01:34:33] um yeah that was technically a slightly different bit that's true but no one cares about them no one cares they're all new now so who cares anything else why do you got that quote from

[01:34:46] yeah well i was curious i went off and did the research and was like oh yeah that's what happened cool all right that's it we'll talk to you guys soon bye bye very sweet ricky dicky dudas