571: "What We" (TWD: The One's Who Live S1E4)

[00:00:00] Ah, ah.

[00:00:04] Ones Who Live.

[00:00:07] Oh, here.

[00:00:10] Give another masterpiece for your children because I'm not going to be the one to tell them

[00:00:19] that I found their father and he sent me away and chose not to come home to them.

[00:00:28] You said children.

[00:00:39] His name is Rick.

[00:00:42] We call him RJ.

[00:00:44] I was pregnant with the bridge happen.

[00:00:47] He's almost eight.

[00:00:53] You need to give me the PRB.

[00:00:56] What?

[00:00:57] Welcome to The Cast of Us.

[00:01:19] A podcast dedicated to the shuttle.

[00:01:22] The Walking Dead.

[00:01:28] He's Zed heads welcome to The Podcast.

[00:01:29] I am Jason.

[00:01:30] And I'm Lucy.

[00:01:32] And we're indoctrinating you into our cult this week.

[00:01:35] I'm just kidding.

[00:01:36] You guys are already in.

[00:01:37] Come on.

[00:01:38] This is The Cast of Us episode 571.

[00:01:41] And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live, Season 1, Episode

[00:01:45] 4.

[00:01:46] What We?

[00:01:47] It's a weird time.

[00:01:49] What We?

[00:01:50] What We.

[00:01:51] A couple things before we start.

[00:01:53] I just wanted to remind you guys if you haven't been checking out The Listener Feedback

[00:01:57] episodes, you might want to check them out.

[00:01:59] They're pretty interesting.

[00:02:01] And if you like hearing talk about The Walking Dead, which I assume you do, since you're

[00:02:05] listening to me, there's often new things that come up during the Feedback episodes,

[00:02:09] especially because listeners, I mean, the listeners have been really eloquent and insightful.

[00:02:14] And just little things like someone mentioned that when Oka 4 Pearl and Rick met in episode

[00:02:21] 1, they were in the field that Oka 4 had bombed when his wife was there.

[00:02:26] We didn't catch that.

[00:02:27] No, just little things that people catch.

[00:02:30] And it's fun because it feels like people are as enthusiastic as they were about the

[00:02:35] main show back in the day.

[00:02:36] And that's been a really nice vibe.

[00:02:38] Yes, that's true.

[00:02:39] I mean, there's a lot of buzz about the show.

[00:02:43] And yeah, the listeners, you guys seem really into it, which is cool mostly, unless you're

[00:02:47] Jenny Ryan who passionately hates it.

[00:02:49] So there's…

[00:02:50] But we passionately love Jenny so it bothers us.

[00:02:54] We've had a lot of fun.

[00:02:55] And I'm glad we get a different perspective on it too.

[00:02:58] So it's really good.

[00:03:00] Also, we've been doing more of the news in that episode since we have screeners, so not

[00:03:07] no news has come out by the time we're recording and then when we do The Listener Feedback,

[00:03:10] we do it then.

[00:03:11] So interview bits and stuff like that.

[00:03:12] It's really worthwhile.

[00:03:13] And I'll just check it out if you're curious at all.

[00:03:15] If you're not sure.

[00:03:16] No problem.

[00:03:17] Also, one other thing, a few of you have said that you like when Lucy and I go off on tangents

[00:03:23] and talk about things unrelated to the walking dead so I will no longer be editing.

[00:03:27] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:03:28] Yeah.

[00:03:29] Okay.

[00:03:30] Buckle up is going to be a long five years.

[00:03:32] Yeah, I should have.

[00:03:33] No, that gave me an idea for Patreon perks.

[00:03:37] Also I was listening to a favorite podcast of mine, Accidental Tech podcast and they started

[00:03:42] this new thing so we're just going to copy them.

[00:03:44] They call it ATP over time, so we're going to do podcast go over time, which is where

[00:03:48] we talk about a subject that one of you guys proposes and we'll try a few and see how

[00:03:53] they goes.

[00:03:54] They'll all be Patreon exclusive.

[00:03:56] Hopefully motivate some of you guys to help support the podcasting.

[00:03:59] The first topic.

[00:04:01] This one, we're going to actually record it right after record.

[00:04:03] This is from Kelly Burgess who asked which character from a book movie or TV show can

[00:04:09] you most relate to and why?

[00:04:11] We'll have a little discussion about that.

[00:04:12] It won't be too long, just a quick thing and that will be posted to Patreon at patreon.com

[00:04:16] slash Jason Kabassi.

[00:04:17] Yeah.

[00:04:18] As always the main podcast will continue to be free but if you're a Patreon pleasure

[00:04:24] you get ad free versions.

[00:04:27] All of that, Priyambal said let's get into the Walking Dead, the ones who live season

[00:04:31] one episode four, what we think about it.

[00:04:36] I think this is one of my top five episodes of the show ever.

[00:04:41] Ever.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:43] I love it.

[00:04:44] Are you just like, I fucking hate it.

[00:04:47] No, no, it was terrible.

[00:04:49] It was so good.

[00:04:50] It was deny-gareera and I was really hopeful that whatever she added would be great

[00:04:56] and it is.

[00:04:57] I mean, now we know she's a multi-award winning playwright.

[00:05:01] I've never seen any of her plays.

[00:05:02] Now I want to because I thought it was so good.

[00:05:06] It was like a really good, this is actually a compliment coming from me.

[00:05:12] It was like a really good fanfic.

[00:05:14] It was like really juicy character.

[00:05:16] Totally, yeah.

[00:05:17] I can see that.

[00:05:18] We sort of set up almost a bot episode but not situation and I just thought everything

[00:05:23] about it was just wonderful.

[00:05:25] I've got very little to criticize this week.

[00:05:28] Yeah, I don't, I can't think of any criticisms actually.

[00:05:31] I didn't even think about it until you just said that but I don't, maybe there's no,

[00:05:35] not really.

[00:05:36] I feared, honestly in the first 10 minutes I was like is this a dream?

[00:05:42] I was really worried for a bit.

[00:05:43] I was like, is this-

[00:05:44] Because it does feel surreal.

[00:05:45] It feels surreal.

[00:05:46] We're moving into a different style which Joaquin Dead does sometimes with that one

[00:05:52] with the people in the walls, you know.

[00:05:53] Yes, but there was just this part of me that was like the first time I watched it couldn't

[00:05:57] relax because I was like is this a dream though?

[00:05:59] But then by the time it got a bit halfway through I was like they would never pull back

[00:06:03] from this and be like, it was a dream because so much good stuff is happening.

[00:06:07] Yeah, it's like because they're falling out of a helicopter and if you blinked suddenly

[00:06:11] they're in a really upscale nice apartment with all the accoutrements and everything

[00:06:16] you'd think this is weird.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:19] I thought I loved how intimate it felt and super emotional.

[00:06:25] I was moved and you're right.

[00:06:28] It's good to label it as really good fan fiction because not so great fan fiction does

[00:06:33] that thing that I'm critical of a lot where people just want everything to be fine and

[00:06:38] everyone to act heroically.

[00:06:40] And there were some frustrating moments, heartbreaking moments in this.

[00:06:43] Very nice.

[00:06:44] And-

[00:06:45] I thought both- I can't wait.

[00:06:48] I've been so excited to record on this.

[00:06:49] I've watched it.

[00:06:50] Cool.

[00:06:51] I mean the first thing I thought because when we podcasted about the episode before I

[00:06:56] did have a whole point about how far, how deep in his Rick is he has he been brainwashed

[00:07:03] if so to what level.

[00:07:04] I'm not so sure and you were like Rick needs some serious deep programming and as I was

[00:07:08] watching this I'm like Lucy was right.

[00:07:10] I was like, do I do?

[00:07:13] Yes, you listen to every critique I had.

[00:07:17] There are some things that you know are based in good reasoning that he's thinking but

[00:07:22] that's true with any cult.

[00:07:24] Like you get into it because there's things that make sense and there's things that

[00:07:28] are appealing and then you get over after a while, you get into the crazier stuff but

[00:07:36] you've already sort of been indoctrinated and anyway we'll get into it.

[00:07:41] So let's-

[00:07:42] Oh yeah.

[00:07:43] Let's get into our points.

[00:07:44] Well let's go for it.

[00:07:45] I've got my one of my points is breaking Rick like this episode breaks and back down and

[00:07:49] builds them back up.

[00:07:50] And I just couldn't be happier with it.

[00:07:54] I just loved it.

[00:07:55] I thought one of the things I loved most about the episode overall is that Rick and Michonne

[00:08:00] felt so real like the way they were fighting and arguing and bickering and I feel like

[00:08:05] we just didn't see that from them in the main show.

[00:08:07] After they became a couple, they didn't become perfect but we didn't spend a lot of time

[00:08:13] with them in just sort of normal couple situations that tended to be as part of the bigger ensemble

[00:08:19] or they were part of a much bigger show so we didn't have the time to sit in that with

[00:08:24] them.

[00:08:25] Brief moments of little teases and stuff but yeah, not the focus like this.

[00:08:30] It was by no means like they disappeared but we didn't get to see the rough edges the

[00:08:36] all relationships have and just having them screen things each other like I can't believe

[00:08:40] you did that and I can't believe you said that which just felt really amazing.

[00:08:44] Or hug the wall god damn it.

[00:08:46] And I just thought that and I also said in a repeat back episode that they needed to bang

[00:08:52] it out and I think that how else would happen this episode.

[00:08:56] Yeah, but yeah the tension of Rick like I'm going to talk about Rick's sort of path in

[00:09:02] this episode and how he's broken down and things he does that I think are good and things

[00:09:07] he does that I think are bad and things he does that I think prove me right about things

[00:09:11] that I've said a couple of times.

[00:09:14] The tension of when they get in there, Michonne.

[00:09:19] I know this dynamic because I think a lot of relationships have it where one person knows

[00:09:24] the other one is absolutely about to go off and the other person is just like the hell

[00:09:30] are they going to do?

[00:09:31] Like what I'm in trouble, what the fuck is happening and Michonne is kind of stalking

[00:09:35] her in the apartment.

[00:09:36] She immediately divest herself with the CRM uniform and gets changed.

[00:09:42] She's fully getting changed in front of Rick to tease him, she knows what she's doing

[00:09:45] when she starts taking her clothes off and it works.

[00:09:48] He is checking her out his scar.

[00:09:51] It makes him very uncomfortable.

[00:09:53] I thought that's interesting.

[00:09:56] I didn't see it necessarily that she was trying to do something maybe that no maybe you're

[00:10:01] right like putting because to me it was just like the fact that she would change right

[00:10:08] in front of him just shows that they're a married couple and that's what I mean this

[00:10:13] episode had a lot of intimacy and there was so much in that moment of him looking at

[00:10:17] her.

[00:10:18] There was desire, there was him seeing the scar and just the realization that they've both

[00:10:23] been through a lot of things and they've been away from each other and so there's

[00:10:26] a lot of distance there but a lot of closeness at the same time and I didn't have that

[00:10:32] piece of maybe she was actually doing something on purpose but maybe part of it is like look,

[00:10:39] we are this intimate.

[00:10:41] We should be together you know.

[00:10:43] And it's forcing that intimacy on him that's a good way worse than I meant it to but it's

[00:10:47] a thing of like when they're both yeah when they're both in their CRM costumes and they're

[00:10:54] on a battlefield they have had this moment to be intimate and she's just immediately like

[00:10:58] I'm getting rid of this fuck this and he's like very very confronted by it.

[00:11:04] And Rick so they they have confrontations I want to talk a little bit but I actually found

[00:11:08] this episode really hard to write notes about because I wanted to talk about every single

[00:11:11] thing that happened so I'm going to be back and forth a bit more than I usually am.

[00:11:16] Rick, you're usually back for quite a lot so yeah I know I'm like Rick thinks he does

[00:11:23] that are good he admits that they cannot escape thanks to Judas he tells her that and I'm

[00:11:27] like fuck he lays out the situation.

[00:11:31] Although I would say that so since you're going to do a lot I'll jump in a little bit

[00:11:34] here and there but I think there's all these onion layers of rationale and he and that's

[00:11:40] just like the top layer you know of why he's staying in.

[00:11:45] And Rick he tells me shown he wants her to live which is I think she probably needs

[00:11:49] to hear because he's behaving so erratically she has come back for all of the situations

[00:11:54] she's like you know we'll kill her and then we'll find the evidence.

[00:11:57] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:58] We take care of this kind of thing dude come on.

[00:12:02] Exactly and you can just see in his face that Rick doesn't believe they can anymore and

[00:12:06] there's part of him that wants desperately wants Michonne to tell him they can do anything

[00:12:10] because he doesn't believe it.

[00:12:12] He can't feel that way and that's the first time she asks what did they do to you and

[00:12:17] he can't really answer and so they notice that the helicopter is crashed and they have

[00:12:20] this amazing Deus Ex-Mahana of the helicopter's crashed it's gone we're gone.

[00:12:27] And in my notes and capital letters it just says but Rick says no like a dick and this

[00:12:32] is the thing I've spoken about and it's Rick pulling back and picking action to avoid

[00:12:37] sitting in his emotions.

[00:12:39] He'd rather sit and be stubborn and stick with the CRM then go back and address a situation

[00:12:44] that is going to cut him to the core which is dealing with the fact he's been away from

[00:12:48] his family for eight years and he admits that in this episode he admits later on that

[00:12:54] he has been doing this to preserve himself because he'd rather live in belief that things

[00:12:59] will be okay than in the reality of them potentially not being okay.

[00:13:03] I don't think that makes him a bad person and I never have when I said it's a very human

[00:13:08] thing we all do it and things like way back in season one which we just be watching

[00:13:14] on the rewatch.

[00:13:15] I brought this up when we were talking about him going to get Murrell rather than sitting

[00:13:19] with Lorraine Carl and I don't think it's quite the same level as what's happening here

[00:13:23] obviously but Rick I think will always pick causes and missions distractions rather than

[00:13:28] being present in a situation and in a way he can reason that all the ways till Sunday

[00:13:33] and his reasons aren't always wrong like him saying I need to stay behind to make sure

[00:13:38] you get away.

[00:13:39] That's actually not insane.

[00:13:41] It's not the right decision but it's not insane but when he says I have to make sure you're

[00:13:46] protected to Michonne I think he also means he has to make sure that his emotions are

[00:13:50] protected because he can't cope with it because I don't even know if he was admitting

[00:13:53] that to himself but she saw it and so she pulled it out of him by the end that this is

[00:14:00] the core and I feel like that's a bit of a stretch honestly that I don't know it was a

[00:14:05] weird like I'm doing this because I can't stand being around you and the possibility

[00:14:12] that I might see you die so I'd rather be apart from you and imagine that you're still

[00:14:15] alive.

[00:14:16] That's a bit convoluted but I don't know if I bite but what I loved about that revelation

[00:14:20] is they're acting it was so beautiful.

[00:14:23] So there's a little bit of critique I guess.

[00:14:25] Yeah and then she says you know I saw you like a soldier attention and I realized he's

[00:14:29] a prisoner I have to break him out and I went haha I was right but then he says,

[00:14:35] he doesn't want to stay he has to and I'm like fuck off forever Rick Grimes like I was

[00:14:40] so annoyed by that I was like you don't have to.

[00:14:43] You're a good person who wants to do the right thing but this is a time when you can be

[00:14:48] selfish and you can go after your family and be with your wife and then there's this

[00:14:52] beautiful turning point where she leaves and he goes after her and I was really A I was

[00:14:58] really glad that he could open the door with his right hand because I was really worried

[00:15:01] that if it was like around door knob that with only you know he had to open it was this

[00:15:05] left hand he might not be able to get any time so that was a relief.

[00:15:10] But he goes after her and I just loved that and that's where things start to change they

[00:15:16] then get into the situation with the chandelier and he starts tell he starts saying the things

[00:15:20] that she needs him to tell her again like this is never happening I'm not going to leave

[00:15:24] you that is never happening you never have to thank me ever and then obviously they bang

[00:15:30] it out and then Rick lets himself ask about things like RJ if he looks like him what he's

[00:15:36] like but then Michonne calls him out and says that he's still lying to her and she finally

[00:15:41] breaks him by making him confess these things that he hasn't let himself think or feel

[00:15:47] and he talks about her being the love of his life and when she left it felt like his heart

[00:15:52] ripped itself out and walked out the door she says you're hurting me and that's not how

[00:15:56] you love and that's when he starts to talk about needing to get over all to protect

[00:16:01] himself and what prompts this and I just think this is such a redeeming moment for the

[00:16:07] Walking Dead universe as a whole is talking about Carl and the fact that he hasn't been

[00:16:13] able to think about Carl and Michonne literally gives him Carl back and I was just like

[00:16:18] I was gone I was like this is beyond they tell flashback of Chandler rigs and it was just

[00:16:27] so good and I think it was exactly the resolution we needed of why Rick is being the way he

[00:16:35] is and the systematic deconstruction of that and I have a lot to say about how Michonne

[00:16:39] handled it but I thought Andrew Lincoln was incredible in this episode I bought what

[00:16:45] he was selling he just seemed so wounded and he's so like I felt like I told him this on

[00:16:53] a panel that you know Rick got darker as we know over time yeah and he started to remind

[00:17:01] me of this debt dad I've had some of you might have heard me mention that was not a good person

[00:17:08] and it was so crazy because the vibe I got from Rick early on was I want to be close to you

[00:17:16] I can feel your heart you're such a good person as much as you may make some mistakes here

[00:17:21] in there you want you have love for humanity that kind of thing but over time that went away

[00:17:28] in a way that made sense for the character but just the point of me bringing this up is

[00:17:32] Andrew Lincoln so good at having his like kind of energy signature changed to reflect where he's

[00:17:38] at and here it's even different again because he just so wounded and so jumbled it's like there's a

[00:17:45] veil over his eyes that he can't like he's looking down a lot they're shame in there there's there's

[00:17:51] a fear and sadness and love too you know and and fierceness everything is contained in him and

[00:17:59] it comes out without him barely even having to say any lines half the time it's just

[00:18:02] so man I mean that freaking sexy and a quite explicit for the walking dead and he there was a lot

[00:18:09] going on there with like vulnerability and emotions they should have had like you jean peeking

[00:18:14] over the window that was made it stormed when the curtain like protocol this is not protocol

[00:18:23] skidadia

[00:18:27] but it was fantastic I just think both of them I don't know what they've

[00:18:31] they're just the you can I think it's just they're both really into it I think this whole season

[00:18:35] you can just tell that both actors love this shit she's a writer and who's also an actor

[00:18:41] and he's just an actor to actor I think you know he I'm sure he loved doing all of this

[00:18:47] yeah not was brilliant so that was my kind of thoughts about the breaking of Rick it will

[00:18:51] obviously come back to it in other points because so much you know about that yeah I'm gonna have

[00:18:55] to retread some of that ground yeah that to me was the kind of journey of him in this episode and

[00:19:01] I thought it was just so worth the wait for all that I was restricted with him in the last episode

[00:19:06] this made it better I think he did justified it for me it's I mean to me so I do think and it wasn't

[00:19:16] 100% explicit maybe it's not as um clear cut as we think it is but it seemed like he woke up

[00:19:23] at the end right and so that was a happy ending for this episode it was an upbeat song they're

[00:19:29] driving off together uh this is the finale by the way in case you guys didn't know I'm just gonna

[00:19:33] I kind of wish it was like I just I this is a weird thing to say but I'm like do you know what

[00:19:39] let us end it here I just like I just don't want whatever is coming next you know yeah

[00:19:45] but even if he hadn't woke up if he was still uh in his fog I would love this episode just because

[00:19:53] it felt so um human yeah it did it felt like a play like a good play of course yeah all right so uh

[00:20:04] I I have a whole thing about Rick too but I'll just take a step back from my first point and talk

[00:20:11] about because I do think this episode you're pulling for Rick and you want him to come to a senses at

[00:20:18] least that's how I see it I know probably not all listeners are the same way but I think you

[00:20:21] would hire and so there were a lot of little moments that felt like betrayals and then and so

[00:20:26] it's heartbreaking moments and twists um first they're in this luxury apartment and I don't even

[00:20:34] think they've said a word yet maybe they have or not and Rick's immediately reaching for that

[00:20:39] button to call the CRM it's still scared and I'm like oh my god oh my show you're just oh I got

[00:20:47] and um that if you don't remember um Pearl told Michonne about this thing last time it would

[00:20:53] signal any CRM helicopter within 300 miles but it's missing I guess it fell off in the fall right

[00:20:58] so Michonne gives him hers and he doesn't press he doesn't take it for now so that was I guess a good

[00:21:05] side um later Michonne says the word children and he goes children you said children and tells him

[00:21:15] about RJ his name is Rick we call him RJ and listeners had predicted as soon as he learned

[00:21:21] about a son that would snap him out of it but no he immediately asks for that communicator

[00:21:27] that was such a great great moment and that the fuck to Michonne off oh yeah she's like your son

[00:21:34] who you haven't asked about I know later yeah and that's a good point he didn't he wasn't curious um

[00:21:41] but I think learning about RJ made him want to call right away because in his mind he thinks he's

[00:21:48] doing the only thing he can to protect the people he cares about that's that's the ideology to the CRM

[00:21:53] self sacrifice for the greater good and he said you know I'm trying to keep you in him alive he

[00:21:58] said that right away you need to give me that thing so learning that he hasn't even another person

[00:22:04] to care about just made him want to go down that path again um so then they look out the window

[00:22:11] they see the helicopter they were in has crashed I guess because of the storm and Michonne says we can

[00:22:16] go home J.S. will think we died in here they all will and you can tell by his expression that he's

[00:22:22] not on board no no what did you say I'm not going home and that was a real turning point for the

[00:22:29] episode because yeah that's what I'm saying about levels you you think it's about just J.S.

[00:22:36] but no it's not there's more he's been using that excuse that the CRM will go after his people

[00:22:42] if they find out he escaped but he doesn't have that excuse and he still won't leave so that was

[00:22:47] another amazing twist um when yeah Michonne said just a heartbreaking moment when he

[00:22:54] said he talked about RJ and said your son that you haven't asked anything about

[00:22:58] and then says that she she tells Rick that they called Rick the brave man and it was clear

[00:23:06] she was thinking that's a joke you know yeah later he says yeah then Michonne is yelling at him

[00:23:18] for lying to her and saying maybe she should be afraid of him now and that she doesn't know what

[00:23:23] he's capable of and uh you don't know for sure how much she actually believes that but maybe

[00:23:28] somewhat and I wouldn't blame her for being worried uh that's I found that heartbreaking

[00:23:34] and then Michonne when she says you think I'm not beating myself up for not being with my kids right

[00:23:39] now that I'm not wondering how I'll ever live with myself if God forbid and he goes that's why you should

[00:23:44] go and she's floored by that and says I don't know who you are because the man I knew would never

[00:23:50] talk to me like that ever and I was just thinking well he's just trying to make sure that his kids

[00:23:55] are protected he wants you to go but he the fucked up sick part is he abandoned them he should be going

[00:24:00] along with her yeah it was very dismissive of like get back to the kids now okay I yeah I was kind

[00:24:06] of with her on that one I was like I thought you would be I thought in his mind he's like I want

[00:24:12] you to go home take care of him okay like but he should be going with her so it's fucked up yeah

[00:24:19] so that was just a few of those I mean that that was just one thing that made the episode

[00:24:24] even better is these moments where you think this would be a good opportunity for Rick to come

[00:24:30] around and he doesn't and it just makes it all even more fucked up I think if I can follow on from

[00:24:39] that I think the writing in this episode was incredible like it felt I was worried I always worry a

[00:24:45] bit when like I don't know I sometimes think writing for the stage and writing for the screen

[00:24:49] are quite different and sometimes you can tell when someone's kind of attuned to one and not the

[00:24:54] other but I thought this really really worked the style um I wanted to talk a little there is some

[00:24:59] particular writing bits that I thought were amazing um the framing device of the smart home

[00:25:05] the first when the first watch of it I was like oh this is like a play where like there's a

[00:25:09] strange off stage noise that's indicative that something's happening within the scene so I followed

[00:25:14] it the second time third time I was watching it so the smart home bits like hello um says welcome

[00:25:21] home when they arrive so that kind of sets the scene like they're together they're home for each other

[00:25:26] when they start arguing it then says your preferred temperature will be reached in 10 minutes

[00:25:32] which makes me think that something's boiling a temperature is building like what's going to happen

[00:25:37] here we see you're uh your preferred temperature will be reached in one minute and Rick who like

[00:25:42] isn't good with technology I'm gonna say after this episode it loses it and is like where is that

[00:25:47] that because he's very stressed out by it then temperature is reached just as Rick says you think

[00:25:54] I want to be with them and that's like this is the sweet spot is he's now gonna open up about what

[00:25:59] the fuck is actually happening temperature malfunction happens when Rick refuses to go after they see

[00:26:05] the helicopter so like shit's gone wrong this doesn't go on how you expected it to go it's malfunctioned

[00:26:11] then we don't hear anything again until after they've run out encountered the chandelier

[00:26:15] then they get one more welcome home after they finally started communicating like a bit of a team

[00:26:20] again and they're about to go and bang it out and I just loved that I just thought that was really

[00:26:24] smart I just liked that kind of symbolism of the house around them is malfunctioning the ceiling crash

[00:26:30] is in when Michele gives him Carl like that's like the house becomes symbolic almost of Rick's

[00:26:36] devotion to the CRM and we see it crash down behind them at the end of the episode yeah I'm when

[00:26:42] they first get there and uh they're standing kind of facing off in front of this huge bay window

[00:26:48] and there's this lightning storm outside and that's right when he reaches for that communicator button

[00:26:56] whatever and I felt like the storm to represented their relationship you know right now definitely

[00:27:02] and I loved the way DeNiger we were played her first kind of monologue um because it reminded me of

[00:27:09] like when you've been simmering with anger about something for a while and you've had a chance to

[00:27:14] think in your head that this is my fucking moment to tell you how angry I am and when she's like

[00:27:19] you've become something of creative right or I was like oh hear me fucking go she's been

[00:27:23] planning this absolute rinsing of Rick she's raging about the getaway boat she's talking about

[00:27:29] telling his children that he chose not to come home to them but before that she's also talking

[00:27:34] about this book Ramona I've never actually read it it's like a kids book very very very very

[00:27:40] past or something talks about her being like Judith get a little bit of Michonne back story that

[00:27:45] she was doing creative writing computing art history and creative writing again I thought maybe

[00:27:49] they would reveal what she landed on but they didn't I know Katana craft um right I decided to

[00:27:57] become a samurai I decided ninja um and then with the storm you get a thunder clap right after

[00:28:04] she let slip the R.J. exists and I just loved that I just thought tonight well that's cool

[00:28:11] that book too I like that she said um oh I loved her so much I think meeting the writer Beverly

[00:28:18] Cleary or maybe it was the protagonist I loved her so much I thought I was going to be a writer

[00:28:24] for a while there is a funny line for a writer to write in their episode yeah I like him other lines

[00:28:32] that I thought were brilliant where I don't like who you are with them um we just let them when

[00:28:36] they won a long time ago the date jesus brought me here I was like you know what Rick you're not wrong

[00:28:41] um when Michonne just asks him do you still love me it's such a vulnerable moment

[00:28:46] it's good question yeah I mean I'm like it's not fucking seem like it and he says always I've never

[00:28:51] stopped loving you but it's all about love really and that's what gimbal always says about these

[00:28:55] stories you know she says I found you but I didn't which is heartbreaking um I also loved

[00:29:03] when Michonne really called out Rick's reasoning for being bullshit so he kind of

[00:29:08] blitz on a little bit about okfor and he's like and they're when they were left to change things

[00:29:12] and then Michonne's like sort of to be clear you're not coming home because you're maybe changing

[00:29:17] the CRM who might come after her home one day and I was like yeah she's not wrong

[00:29:23] yeah she called about and he's kind of nodding yeah yeah that sounds good that sounds like a great

[00:29:28] plan top plan that's what I'm gonna do and she's like great I'm out um when she said I only feel

[00:29:33] safe when I'm with you I thought that was a really wonderful line and talking about how the hope in

[00:29:39] the CRM isn't real but family and love are real and it doesn't get denied I was like yeah

[00:29:44] but also my final point about the writing is the humor in this episode really tickled me

[00:29:49] uh Michonne saying we needed a time out the beckering defensible position and commando I was

[00:29:55] cracking up at that where he's like we need to take a defensible position and she's absolutely

[00:30:00] living she's like I don't have a weapon commando and he's like commando really um

[00:30:05] killing the walker together and she's like I heard it and he's like like some walker

[00:30:10] duper on her and she's like really he said I had it and yeah she goes silly and he goes sorry

[00:30:16] yeah I felt like in that moment they were not in sync and that's why she got trapped

[00:30:22] but then later when they are in sync they're doing fine killing the zombies when they run out

[00:30:28] um the roomba really made me laugh because of course Rick wouldn't have had a roomba or

[00:30:33] be expecting one to be there and his reaction of like what the fuck is that really tickled me

[00:30:38] and at the end as well that the kind of lightness of when they leave and they're having this

[00:30:42] profound moment and then a walker appears at the window and Rick's like okay let's go let's go um

[00:30:47] I just thought it was done with such a nice light touch that was really fitting for the kind of

[00:30:52] relationship they have and the history they have together so I hope that tonight we are against

[00:30:56] loads of kudos for this because I bet she'll get nominated for something

[00:31:01] I hope so can we nominate her listen because um our friend Kelly who is I think still is

[00:31:10] I'm not sure but was the listener of the podcast and started her own walking dead podcasts with

[00:31:15] we should do the name of that but um I recommend checking out all different walking dead podcasts so

[00:31:21] Kelly keen guists podcast but anyway she um had screeners too and she we were chatting about it

[00:31:29] and this was before you know we got our screeners actually so she had them and she goes uh do you

[00:31:34] have screeners have you seen episode four and I was like I don't watch ahead of time I think maybe

[00:31:41] we did just we had just got them but I was waiting for episode four after that just because she said that

[00:31:48] I did so good it's so I wonder if we're gonna get more um more screeners for episodes five

[00:31:55] I don't think so no it's gonna be a bit of a bit of a bugger but here we are so that means uh

[00:32:04] by the way that our episodes will probably come out at least a day later yeah if not yeah two

[00:32:09] days later so be ready for that guys you okay my turn yes so Rick is jumbled mess slash untangling

[00:32:19] his perspective he I think is brainwashed and that's a subject I've always been fascinated with cults

[00:32:27] and mind coercion and mind control and things like that I thought a weakness of having Rick be

[00:32:34] taken away in a helicopter and then be gone from his wife and daughter for years was that it would

[00:32:39] be unbelievable anything could keep him away that long but having this happened the way it's been

[00:32:45] laid out in the series ties it to our world because if you watch Netflix you'll see people do get

[00:32:52] sucked in by groups and their ideals you know there's plenty of cult documentaries out there if you

[00:32:56] haven't watched them I was I watched the vow and I was just transfixed by that on HBO with about

[00:33:02] the nexium cult and um you know Rick we're all in our internet bubbles and Rick has been in even more

[00:33:11] of a bubble and that's how cults work they close you off from other sources of information yeah other

[00:33:16] sources of anything of self esteem of sustenance and then you're swimming in the water of the

[00:33:22] cult leaders messaging for years and it changes your perspective and I think as much as Rick

[00:33:28] half the time he's talking about I'm afraid of the CRM you know I'm afraid of Jadis that was one level

[00:33:36] she's gonna kill us and she has this messaging thing or I mean file on us that they'll kill us

[00:33:42] okay well let's just kill her and get rid of it and then the helicopter crashes so they say oh she

[00:33:46] think or Michonne says she thinks we're dead no I still think the CRM might find our community one

[00:33:53] day and kill us so I have to prevent that but within that I was just looking to see how much

[00:34:03] Rick has taken on the ideology of the CRM which they keep repeating it's about sacrifice sacrificing

[00:34:13] your own life for the greater good they're the last light of the world but it's for the people

[00:34:17] later on he says he gave himself to Okofur's mission which was to change the CRM from the inside

[00:34:25] he knows the CRM kills into some people but he also like the question is how much of him cares

[00:34:35] whether changing the CRM will make them a real force for good or does he just want to change

[00:34:41] them to protect his people that matters to me because I want to know if he's internalized any of

[00:34:46] their ideology and I think he has because he says Michonne we've been crawling around in the dirt for

[00:34:51] so long losing the people we love this felt like a way to stop that not to surrender to it to fight

[00:34:56] for everyone so that's not about just protecting his people it's about the CRM's high ideals of

[00:35:01] saving the world right and so fine even if that's a worthy cause and an organization to join and

[00:35:07] try to change from the inside for the better should you abandon your child to do that your family

[00:35:13] no and if you think you should that means you've internalized this ideology of extreme self-sacrifice

[00:35:18] for the supposed greater good that's a cult you know they take you away from your family and make you

[00:35:22] they most cults have some kind of ideal that people think is worth cutting off connections to

[00:35:29] your loved ones for and I think more I think that plays on one of our ex tendencies anyway which is

[00:35:36] to feel drawn to solving bigger problems like to not be able to rest until a bigger problem is

[00:35:41] solved and to feel the way of solution and having to do that yeah um and I think that probably made

[00:35:47] him in a way once he stopped trying to escape even more vulnerable um yeah it's it's interesting

[00:35:56] because I yeah I really resisted all of that and this feels so much like what you had been saying

[00:36:04] when we were watching the early episodes and to me he seems different than he was back then but I'm

[00:36:09] I'm really thinking that because clearly you saw something that he's now an extreme version of that you

[00:36:16] know yeah I think that's the thing I don't but I think it's maybe it came off like I was saying

[00:36:23] it's a really bad thing because I think in healthy quant like everything in healthy quantities is

[00:36:30] not necessarily a bad thing and I think for Rick it's what makes him such a stand-up hero at the

[00:36:35] start of the show but that I just feel especially in season one I'm like be fucking horrible to be

[00:36:41] married to him because he's always got his eye on solving another problem or catching another bad guy

[00:36:47] or doing this and I think the CRM is like that times a million and to kind of see the show really

[00:36:53] bed into that is interesting I mean I kind of wish we could start over now and because I

[00:37:01] like the only example I can think of where he went off was to save Merl you know and I

[00:37:09] looking back on that I just don't see that as anything other than wow I left this guy up there

[00:37:16] handcuffed to the roof and he could be eaten and I feel guilty so I need to go help him

[00:37:21] I didn't see it as I'm running away from my family or I can't sit still or face anything it's more like

[00:37:28] this guy's gonna die because of me you know so they can but I just didn't see it that way

[00:37:35] while we're starting the rewatch again yeah we gotta start all over but anyway let me get back to

[00:37:40] this so absolutely so but I do see what you're saying now for sure this I mean and so that makes

[00:37:46] me think I might probably miss something going back to me too amazing we can finish the podcast

[00:37:51] I'm done so so so I think there's two factors here I mean there's the threat that the CRM

[00:37:58] actually does pose and then there's ricks distorted for perspective on them because they clearly

[00:38:03] do pose a huge threat and it's not it's totally reasonable for him to worry about what would

[00:38:09] happen if he escapes what jesus would do and but that's not the whole story because it's also

[00:38:15] that he's bought into the idea that there's no possibility of finding back and even worse that he

[00:38:20] needs to sacrifice his life to save the world which could mean using brutal methods and he doesn't

[00:38:25] think he's abandoned his his kids and his wife but he he really did and this story the way it's gone

[00:38:34] makes it clear to me that I don't think it would have been a good idea to start with ricks seemingly

[00:38:40] a willing part of the CRM you know like we because because we wanted that to um we wanted to see I

[00:38:50] think it was good to see him trying to get away because that's where we wanted him but then for

[00:38:54] it to be revealed that uh he's actually more in mesh than we thought you know yeah I think I think

[00:38:58] you're right yeah that I think this season will hang together a lot better when we've seen

[00:39:05] all of it if that makes sense but I really wish he would just end up for this episode

[00:39:10] and I know what happens next this is fine oh no I can't wait um you could just stop no y'all stop

[00:39:16] I'm like this is fine but I've actually been able to watch this dynamic of um

[00:39:23] you know the kind of similar to what Rick is facing first hand because I've been holding someone

[00:39:30] prisoner at my house for about six years now uh it's my cat Ash and he used to always try to get

[00:39:38] out but now when I open the door he's curious but very tentative and if and if he'll like take a few

[00:39:43] steps out but if anything goes wrong he bolts inside and he thinks he's safer with me because I've

[00:39:47] indoctrinated him yes and he's even better looking than under Lincoln he's a really cute cat so

[00:39:52] he is unless you shave him which is similar to Andrew Lincoln's

[00:39:55] oh my god your cat is Andrew Lincoln in front of you it's okay look at me like what

[00:40:03] what with like a mouse or something like covered in blood like what

[00:40:10] so that's my take on where he is I mean I have another point on his awakening but we'll get

[00:40:16] into that later all right I one of the things I like to this episode was hearing homage to the

[00:40:22] past of the show and it wasn't just the obvious things like Carl um there's a line

[00:40:29] I think it's Rick that says that says we do have to be afraid and it's to Michonne when they're

[00:40:34] in the lab or have just escaped from the lab and in season one at the CDC there's a scene where

[00:40:40] Rick stumbles into bed with Laurie and gives her hug and says we don't have to be afraid anymore

[00:40:46] and Laurie's really shaken up because that's just after she's been assaulted by Shane

[00:40:49] and I was like oh those circle women Rick's afraid again in a similar lab situation I don't know

[00:40:57] I thought that was cool it's great that we just started the rewatch because we got such a dose

[00:41:03] of early Rick and now comparing contrast let's go I love it because I was a bit like oh we fucked

[00:41:08] up by like being in season two and then this is happening but I'm like no this is great

[00:41:12] because it's just it's enhancing enhancing it um Rich Hatchup about Jocelyn I did I wondered

[00:41:18] part of he was like wouldn't it be great if like Michonne's like Darryl and I were out looking

[00:41:23] for you and Rick's like Darryl I gotta get back to Darryl and then like his games and he's like oh wait

[00:41:28] yeah my brother my brother let's go Michonne's like really really um I love that she didn't go into

[00:41:37] and Rick's just like you killed her good they didn't really mention what had gone down with the

[00:41:40] children no she said I don't want to really talk about it needed now we should remind listeners in

[00:41:46] case they don't remember the scar on Michonne's back the X came from when Jocelyn her friend Jocelyn

[00:41:53] showed up and I don't remember all the details she has to do with the kids and they branded her

[00:41:59] and Darryl and then Michonne had to kill all the kids or else she would have they would have killed her

[00:42:04] and um and what was this gonna say about oh that's sort of another cult like situation too

[00:42:11] Jocelyn was yeah it was it was I like that they didn't get too far into it um Michonne says I'm

[00:42:18] sorry for what they did to you which reminds me of recapologizing to bicycle girl um sorry this happened

[00:42:23] to you just do we should fix it I was like oh boy bicycle girl was like at least not gonna call

[00:42:32] I liked in the more recent past they paid homage to that uh Michonne says it's not time to go

[00:42:37] not until we know where we're going and Michonne talked about the mall adding context how long

[00:42:41] she'd gone and what she'd sacrifice she confirmed it was a year yeah yeah and Carl just stunning

[00:42:47] stuff from Andy Lincoln vindication for Chandler rigs and the original show being about Rick and Carl

[00:42:53] just the beautifully used of those flashbacks um the fact that he feels and that the Michonne dreams

[00:42:58] came after so the other thing that I thought was cool and I went into a bit of research about this

[00:43:04] is Rick's line I know how to be dead and live now um and I was like that really since

[00:43:10] familiar and I went and looked at it's like we're the walking dead right yeah season five F so 10

[00:43:15] them when they're in the barn just from the wiki so Rick's grandpa always told him that he was dead

[00:43:20] the minute he entered enemy territory and every day when he woke up he always told himself

[00:43:24] rest in peace and I get up and go to war and then after a few years of pretending he was dead he

[00:43:29] made it out alive I think that's the trick Rick concludes we tell ourselves that we are the walking

[00:43:33] dead Darryl disagrees saying we ain't them um and Rick tries to reassure him that they are indeed not

[00:43:39] but in this case he is I know how to be dead and live now and it's like his grandpa that's how you

[00:43:45] make it through yeah okay well I just yeah those moments of referring to the past and talking about

[00:43:52] it I just thought made this so much richer um and it was just really satisfying to see those two

[00:43:59] characters talk about events that had happened to both of them and it happened in the show that

[00:44:03] meant something yeah I'm just so bummed that like I don't know they couldn't find a way to have

[00:44:07] like ghost chanlar rigs there because I'd seen the universe at the premiere I was just thinking

[00:44:12] I almost wish like they would show at the very very ends like old Rick and Chandler up and heaven

[00:44:19] together I know looking down like well there you go son but yeah and I think that's also probably

[00:44:30] testament to Andrew Lincoln and Chandler rigs being very close as well I think they had a really good

[00:44:35] relationship um I was I sometimes wonder if it was a coincidence that Andrew Lincoln left so soon

[00:44:41] after Chandler rigs got written out because I don't think so no I think he that didn't sit well with

[00:44:47] him and it was just another reason for him to take off it kind of got Rick's storyline in a way

[00:44:52] you know yeah I think so yeah but yeah those past moments really really resonated with me I loved that

[00:45:01] they should have Chandler's long lost twin brother I mean Carl's long lost twin brother

[00:45:07] here was like what we saw the flashbacks he was like just think he's a DJ that

[00:45:12] oh yeah that's cool like do he want Chandler's cool he's in some like independent spider man movie

[00:45:20] yeah I was like he's doing stuff but he's fine he also went to the premiere which I thought

[00:45:26] was cute so you know of the ones who live no surprise what was of him with Deny and Andy which I

[00:45:32] thought was good yeah that's awesome cute I love that all right my next one is how to handle

[00:45:38] friends and loved ones who are in cults amazing practical advice let's do this I kind of wonder if

[00:45:46] some listeners think it's debatable whether Rick is exhibiting cult like behavior

[00:45:51] but just for the sake of argument let's say he is if you don't think so right in the list now I'm

[00:45:57] curious but Stephen Hassan is American writer and mental health counselor who specializes in cults

[00:46:04] and has written a bunch of books on the topic helps people with deep programming I read about him

[00:46:08] on the a little bit culty podcasts with Sarah and Nippy who used to be an ex-seem they bring

[00:46:13] on experts and ex cult members and talk to them it's great podcast if you're interested in that kind of

[00:46:18] but anyway per him here are some signs that someone is in a cult or like warning signs to look out

[00:46:24] for if you think someone you care about is in a cult they're involved in a group that wants to

[00:46:32] bring back the world after some of our I thought you were like they're involved in a fandom that

[00:46:38] is obsessed with zombies and they regularly listen to a podcast on my ass talk for hours

[00:46:43] they're involved in a group with principles and ideals that differs from the mainstream

[00:46:48] okay the person isn't in a specially vulnerable state if someone's dealing with emotional issues

[00:46:54] they can be more easily influenced by brainwashing techniques these are just four things to look for

[00:46:59] the person becomes close to a charismatic figure who begins to have influence over them

[00:47:04] I wouldn't say Rick is super close to Bill but all of this has me questioning

[00:47:10] yeah okofor but remember when Bill and Rick met by the river and Rick was acting very

[00:47:18] deferential yes and I thought maybe he was acting but the way he was doing it I'm like is

[00:47:25] I know Andrew Lincoln's that good of an actor but is Rick you know and so now I think there's

[00:47:32] something there and then they showed that scene last time with at okofor's funeral and

[00:47:38] Bill was giving the eulogy and Rick seemed to be listening very intently so I really wonder

[00:47:43] about their relationship whether maybe he's really bought in you know and really has respect for

[00:47:48] him and everything I don't know I mean let us not forget Rick was a cop that's what the OG

[00:47:54] system is not cult any law enforcement people listening I don't think the police is a cult

[00:47:58] but it is a it's a strict system of authority right yeah I mean when you're used to that then

[00:48:04] you could maybe buy into something like this a little bit more I don't know and then the last one

[00:48:09] is they're not able to step away from the community even for a short period of time Stephen Hassan

[00:48:15] said if you're sure you're not in a brainwash state or in a cult and prove it to yourself and

[00:48:19] prove it to your family step out of the experience for a week and Rick that very much fits yeah

[00:48:24] with him not being able to do it yeah and so um

[00:48:30] and I think this is a great way to handle the CRM to didn't make it sort of cult like like this

[00:48:38] and uh another thing is um it's common for people outside of a cult to look at those in the cult

[00:48:45] and be like how could they fall for that that's so stupid I've never fall for that but if you listen

[00:48:51] to any of these cult podcasts or watch documentaries more listen to the survivors the people who got

[00:48:59] out I should say um the intelligent people get taken in by cults all the time yeah and it's also

[00:49:07] it's people looking for something usually you know they want to have some purpose or

[00:49:14] something like that we all fall into that category sometimes and it's also typical for people

[00:49:21] when someone they love has been taken in by a cult for their first reaction to be like what's

[00:49:24] the matter with you you're in a cult stop being an ass nap out of it but the common wisdom in

[00:49:30] the real world is to not victim blame when people who are taken in by this and I would personally

[00:49:34] would totally as much as I was frustrated by some of the things Rick said I would I think that

[00:49:40] it's hard too but if I was my best self in that situation I would extend that courtesy of

[00:49:45] compassion towards Rick yeah you're supposed to meet them where their at-show kindness try to slowly

[00:49:50] gently get them to see how crazy their thinking is so in this book cults a practical guide by

[00:49:56] English antichultist Ian Howarth he lists some do's and don'ts for dealing with loved ones who

[00:50:01] you think are in a cult excellent so the don'ts do not rush into adapting a potential solution before

[00:50:08] carefully researching the cult problem do not say you're in a cult your brainwashed do not feel guilty

[00:50:15] it's not a problem caused by families I'm not sure what that means do not act in an angry or hostile

[00:50:20] manner towards the cult member I think she failed on that one do not underestimate the control the

[00:50:27] cult has over each member do not antagonize the cult member by ridiculing his or her beliefs do not

[00:50:33] be judgmental or confrontational do not antagonize any of the cult's leadership or other members

[00:50:39] do not give up hope of success no matter how long it takes do not neglect yourself or other family

[00:50:46] members and some of the do's do try to keep in regular contact via email or telephone even if

[00:50:52] there's little response do express sincere love for the cult member at every available opportunity

[00:50:58] oh do keep do keep a diary of comments attitudes and events associated with his or her life in the

[00:51:03] cult do always welcome back the cult member into the family home no matter what it said do try and

[00:51:10] bite your tongue if the cult member makes unkind comments do read all the recommended books related

[00:51:16] to cults mind control and specifically do seek help from organization specializing in counter cult work

[00:51:23] so this is all the ideal it's more in the real world I wouldn't be that dramatic if michelle did

[00:51:27] all this stuff and also like that's like when you're being your best self and haven't been on the

[00:51:33] road for a year and a half yeah trying to survive chlorine gas does ventilation but I think if this was

[00:51:42] I don't know Rick he does portray them as this dangerous group that he needs to go in and change

[00:51:53] but then he's talking about sometimes you need to burn the field to bring it back you know

[00:52:01] and the way the CRM burns the field is to kill innocent people and that's what he wants to change so

[00:52:07] that's why I sort of think his thinking is jumbled around this whole thing anyway but I guess

[00:52:14] I'm bringing that up because I don't know how at least consciously he feels like aligned to the

[00:52:22] group with it's all jumbled in together with having to protect other people from the group but

[00:52:26] there is definitely that part where he feels like if I change this group then it can be something great

[00:52:31] you know and so so if if you would criticize the group to someone who was really in that situation

[00:52:38] then that might just make them retreat into their shell even more you know anyway if you feel like

[00:52:44] you might be in a cult yourself if you're hearing my voice or you think someone you care about

[00:52:50] is that podcast I mentioned a little bit culty they have a page of great resources that could be

[00:52:56] a good starting point and figure out how to deal with it you can find that at a little bit culty.com

[00:53:01] slash resources and I'll put that link in the show notes there's a lot of good stuff there

[00:53:08] oh hill jason thank you thank you you make us say that after

[00:53:14] a podcast no that's good it's it's I think culture one of those things that we think are

[00:53:21] not a part like they're a thing that happens to other people but in reality we're all looking for

[00:53:26] meaning in some way and culture they're not just for stupid dumb dumbs they're actually for people who

[00:53:33] do have the power of rational thought and can think their way out of things but it just depends

[00:53:39] on who you are and your personal circumstances at that time it's really difficult and talks at

[00:53:42] relationships same thing it's it's the variations on I think same similar dynamics in

[00:53:49] relationships with narcissists you know it could be it's like a two person cult yeah cult personality

[00:53:58] yeah yeah um I had a point about my show but I think we've probably covered all of it just with

[00:54:05] other things I just thought it originally started as being a point about the performances that

[00:54:10] were I just thought both of them were outstanding I mean if if the walking dead was ever considered

[00:54:14] for Emmys or something they should get this episode but they walk because it's they never

[00:54:20] did with the walking dead and this is a spitt off yeah it's not gonna not gonna happen um

[00:54:26] michon's I know how it ends where she talks about origin calls Rick out on being a coward and says you

[00:54:31] know my friend to your people killed and this is interesting thinking about cults because next like

[00:54:35] not my people I'm not one of them and it's like well if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck

[00:54:41] it's a duck or is it a duck that thinks it's not a duck like I'm not sure um

[00:54:48] her trying to get him appeal to him to remember the life they had together in that moment where she

[00:54:52] walks out she leaves with a knife and a lamp leg and she cries just for a little and waits just

[00:54:58] for a little and and walks out and it's so good that Rick was after her um but there was part of

[00:55:04] me that was like he might know I really I really was like I mean he will he's got to but there

[00:55:10] was a part where I was just like oh god no I mean I think the one thing that is true for him

[00:55:19] is he he doesn't want her to live so but I think yeah the more the question there was more like

[00:55:26] do I want to just let her go right now not do I want to like it wasn't necessarily about the danger

[00:55:32] yeah it was just about whether to let her go and it's good that he did because that scary as

[00:55:37] helicopter turned up just a couple yeah that really sent chills down my spine seeing out the

[00:55:42] window I was like no when the helicopter by the way like shot down the crash helicopter in order

[00:55:50] because that's what the CRM does they want to erase any evidence of their existence because they

[00:55:54] want to keep themselves a secret that just brought up a major piece of departmentus suspension

[00:55:59] to disbelief that we mentioned probably a few times over on world beyond which is that the CRM

[00:56:03] is this organization where secrecy is one of their very highest ideals and yet they have this

[00:56:08] very memorable logo with the plastic plaster all over everything brand identity they're like I

[00:56:15] like it but can we add the logo and then they'll have to burn everything because we've left

[00:56:19] the logo and everything and then like one of the three and circles is now gone so like are they

[00:56:25] gonna rebrand like I don't know because it's supposed to be Portland Omaha and the

[00:56:30] Pacific Republic but you know now it's going to be like a wee infinity so like you need to change

[00:56:34] it to some other meaning that doesn't change that much let's rethink that. That could have been

[00:56:40] such an asset he had great style he was great at styling people but yeah Michelle I'm talking about

[00:56:49] having come to take Rick home and how they're going to love on each other because that's how it

[00:56:52] makes sense just wonderful stuff really wonderful and I thought her performance in this episode was

[00:56:59] just really grounding and passionate and I loved that. Yeah I mean she you got to think like

[00:57:07] indennaing her issues you've done the show for so long and now you're like oh you're going

[00:57:13] to be an executive producer on this spinoff that's about your character and you're gonna get a

[00:57:17] chance to show your writing chops by writing a whole episode which we will also star in and show

[00:57:22] run basically we learned if you listen to listen to feedback you heard that Gimbal said basically he

[00:57:27] let her do everything on this episode and so there's a lot of pressure I would think but she knocked

[00:57:34] at other park. Yeah I've got a hiccup some really sorry. I'll try to calm it. Come up on the

[00:57:39] recording I'll try not to talk around them but yeah should I go are you yeah go for it. Okay so I'm

[00:57:46] going to talk about intimacy it's very intimate episode in a lot of ways the most intimate episode

[00:57:52] I can think of on the walking dead I think it's interesting and great that so there was a cliffhanger

[00:58:00] of them falling you know diving out of this helicopter and then that was just a gambit to give these

[00:58:07] two characters some alone time to hash things out and they end up almost immediately one at one

[00:58:12] minute in in this perfectly clean fully appointed ready with running water electricity like luxury

[00:58:18] apartment mood lighting. Yeah disco lighting down by the lab I think Rick found that button

[00:58:26] and I wondered if it was a CRM complex. I thought that I was like beel or somebody's gonna walk in

[00:58:33] to be like why are you in my apartment or something? It was my vision home but it wasn't it was

[00:58:40] another group and I think the point was to show that these groups don't always work out Rick but

[00:58:45] anyway it was a way to make a little bubble or they don't have to deal with anything but what's

[00:58:49] between them you know for the most part they had to throw some zombie action in there of course but yeah

[00:58:54] when they were approaching the lab I was like holy shit is one of these people gonna be like

[00:58:59] a war beyond characters. Like there was part of me that was like you wanted Silas here is

[00:59:04] lumped against the wall. Yeah or any of the kind of scientists like when she was reading the note I was

[00:59:09] like oh my god she's just not from and I'm like oh no it's nobody. I know okay still sad.

[00:59:15] So some particularly other intimate moments was like I already mentioned this so I won't go

[00:59:21] into detail about when she's undressing in front of them and you see the scar you know just really

[00:59:27] all of a sudden you think of them as these two characters who love each other and are married but

[00:59:33] they there's so much complications in between them right now after Michonne got fed up and left

[00:59:39] and then Rick went after her and they fought some zombies and then they're back in the

[00:59:42] apartment so they'd argued like you said they bickered that whole time right she almost died.

[00:59:47] Then Rick comes on to her when they get home and my thought was I don't know if I would be okay

[00:59:54] with this if I was her because they're not in a good place you know I almost felt like I wouldn't

[01:00:00] have blamed her if she'd be like no Rick not right now but um but because he hasn't really met her

[01:00:07] where she's at yet but but there's a true love there and they're fanning those flames and that

[01:00:14] connection is actually I think a big part of what opened him up to her and led him to waking up you

[01:00:20] know so it was a good thing. I'm assuming no physical contact were quite some

[01:00:26] different years yeah and I think I do believe there is something to like the bickering and stuff

[01:00:31] being about because they've not had a chance to get that out of the room. So bang it out.

[01:00:34] To bang it out baby. Yeah.

[01:00:37] I know I just that moment I was like oh man he's just been like telling her that she needs to leave

[01:00:43] and that he and he even told her it's over between us and everything and it was broken and now

[01:00:48] he's like wanting to get some and I was about like get away from you dude but I'm glad that

[01:00:53] she didn't feel that way because it ended up being beautiful and then you know like he starts to

[01:00:58] kind of freak out yeah in the middle of it and she puts her his hand on her chest to calm him

[01:01:04] maybe bring him back to the present and it just shows how wounded he is but how she can show him

[01:01:11] and I think and that whole thing about saying you know that he dreamed about Carl and then he lost

[01:01:19] couldn't remember Carl's face and then he started dreaming about her

[01:01:24] and it was what kept him going and that's exactly what I thought those little interludes were

[01:01:30] yeah and it's interesting and notable to me that in those interludes he had this map but he couldn't

[01:01:36] find his way and she had to show him the way that's just kind of a huge red on the nose metaphor

[01:01:41] great no great yeah it's great great so another intimate thing I like that they showed his stump

[01:01:48] you know and that she studied it and it was very just right there in camera and the symbol of

[01:01:55] the lengths that he went to to try to get back to her and it made me wonder if you would cut

[01:02:00] something off to get back to Peter no no okay maybe I don't know like it depends oh I do

[01:02:10] I mean it depends I mean I think we'll see its context

[01:02:16] you like your ears

[01:02:19] he has a good life it's great but he's uh yeah no I think I have to say the world would you cut

[01:02:26] your hand off to get back home yeah I think so oh fuck off now you just made me look like a

[01:02:31] dickhead but I but I but I have two kids oh yeah forgot you got that makes a difference

[01:02:36] any cat yeah that's true I'd cut my hand off to get back to my cat 100% I just don't know if

[01:02:42] I did it for another human oh wow very feeling okay no I would so I would so was shown

[01:02:50] I mean in that same moment she says I still believe that you're in there and that you're trying

[01:02:55] to come home and she said you have that button and you could have hit it but you didn't so

[01:03:00] I don't know that's just another moment that was within that intimate moment between them

[01:03:05] I think she does a good job of meeting him where he's at at points in this episode like she

[01:03:10] I think she expresses anger that she is more than entitled to express but she also

[01:03:16] gives him space to be as messed up as he is and I think that that's I think seeing that stump in

[01:03:22] particular yeah brought it home to her like he's been through a lot yeah he's thinking that

[01:03:28] fucker did that otherwise you would never believe me that I've been reaching out for all right

[01:03:33] I was trying to get back really when oh like one time I don't know they call me I don't know I

[01:03:37] just stayed like yeah well I my last point is just the ending I love the ending I loved

[01:03:44] Rick and his like light blue sweatshirt not in his CRM uniform and it's daylight the vibes are

[01:03:50] just amazing like they're united they can do it the music starts kind of cinematic and then switches

[01:03:56] into this much more modern music one criticism I wouldn't have gotten the lift of a building that

[01:04:01] was about to collapse I would use the stairs but making out in the lift is hot so that's fine

[01:04:06] hmm they get into this crazy yellow Nissan that turns out to be a hybrid I laughed at the stick shift

[01:04:12] joke I couldn't tell if it would be hard to drive stick with one hand or if Rick just can't drive stick

[01:04:18] I my first thought was we can turn stick come on he Rick would be able to drive and then I'm like oh yeah

[01:04:22] you only has one hand so I'm sure that's what it was because you'd be having to use his prosthesis

[01:04:27] on the wheel and do the gears with his other hands so yeah I guess it's not ideal so um but that

[01:04:32] led to some very I'd really like that they couldn't keep their hands off each other when they were

[01:04:36] trying to move seats and things like that that felt very teenage and very uh very cool very hot

[01:04:43] Rick saying we can make this whole damn world ours if we want to felt like season five or six Rick

[01:04:48] like yeah is he like a cocky look on his face yeah my shone just really vibing with that like sounds

[01:04:54] like something I would say and then we see the condo fall in the background and Michonne grins and

[01:04:59] sodas Rick and I thought there's gonna be something's gonna happen like a helicopter is gonna turn

[01:05:03] up but they just let us have this really lovely happy ending to the episode yeah and it just makes me

[01:05:09] so nervous about what's gonna happen next week because of the screeners you don't get you don't get

[01:05:15] the preview and I'm just at my theory I think next week we're not going to see Rick and Michonne I

[01:05:21] think we're going to see stuff going down at the CIRM and then episode six is going to bring everyone

[01:05:26] back together but I don't feel like jadis is gonna be playing a wee part the thing is because yeah

[01:05:31] I did think even if the helicopters crashed if I was jadis I'd be thinking Rick and Michonne have

[01:05:38] done something to this helicopter to crash it and have escaped like I don't think there was

[01:05:42] off the hook as they think they are but who knows we'll see yeah I mean they can't be because

[01:05:48] there's two more episodes left so and I don't well let me go through this last part and then I'll

[01:05:54] talk about what I think might be next so my last point is Rick wakes up

[01:05:59] because as you said earlier Michonne kind of lays out what she's gathered from Rick you know so

[01:06:04] you're trying to keep us safe by maybe changing the CIRM one day who might come after our home

[01:06:09] and put it in danger that's it then he nods and she says that's not it you're lying and I'm like

[01:06:16] that's interesting that she sees something else but I couldn't figure out what it was I don't know

[01:06:22] what she's talking about and then later after they sleep together they're kind of lying they're

[01:06:27] in the afterglow talking about RJ and they're connected and he feels curious and he says he does

[01:06:33] have your good kind heart though and that got me I felt really moved by that and then the conversation

[01:06:42] came around to crops because they were talking about the food that this group has and how they

[01:06:47] sustain themselves and he said how you have to burn them sometimes to bring them back which is

[01:06:51] CIRM thinking and he says if I could change the CIRM there's a chance for future generations

[01:06:56] a real chance so that's another indication that he's also tied up in the mission of the CIRM not

[01:07:02] just protecting his people but she goes you're still lying to me you're lying to yourself

[01:07:10] and then she says what do they do to you I need to know what is really going on here what do

[01:07:17] they take from you and he says Carl they took Carl I lost him again and to everything we talked

[01:07:23] about how he meet up with him in his dreams and then he disappeared dreamt of a macho and all that

[01:07:28] during this whole conversation I thought was some of Andrew Lincoln's best acting in this show

[01:07:34] because he's so sad and broken and lost and he's vulnerable because they had sex they had

[01:07:44] this into a moment I think he's closer to his heart you know he's opened up and so he tells her

[01:07:53] yeah that he's afraid of losing her and in this twisted way feels like he needs to be away from

[01:07:58] her to protect her and he says I think at least if I think you'll live longer than me without knowing

[01:08:05] I can believe it's true seeing that loss I can't survive macho and I just won't and it's very

[01:08:12] emotional and then she gives in the phone of with the drawing of Carl on it and I want to play I

[01:08:22] just loved what she had to say here you've already alluded to it a couple times but I want to play

[01:08:26] a clip of it because I this is really I think what turn him around this is what woke Rick up here goes

[01:08:32] if Carl were here right now what would he say

[01:08:39] what would he want you to do with this new chance to be with those you love

[01:08:45] oh

[01:08:47] despite all the odds all the years I found you Rick

[01:08:57] I came here through the hell that we have both been through to take you home

[01:09:04] you think that's all for nothing

[01:09:15] for us just go our separate ways no we go home Rick

[01:09:26] and we figure out how to protect it together

[01:09:29] that's how we make it all make sense we love on each other as hard as we can

[01:09:41] while we can

[01:09:46] well and uh I've liked so did he agree because we didn't actually see that but then they're on the move

[01:09:56] together and she had said you know the building was crumbling down around him because of the helicopter

[01:10:01] and she's no we're not leaving until we decide what's next and now they're leaving so I took that

[01:10:05] to me yes they've decided they're kissing in the elevator so clearly he's said okay in some way or

[01:10:11] another and then he says yeah we can make this whole damn world ours if we want to and so I think

[01:10:17] he's back to himself but at least somewhat right he's had a major shift and I think he's decided

[01:10:24] to go home with her but maybe there's still gonna be some psychological complications in there

[01:10:30] you know it's not like okay that's done with you don't know yeah if he gets recaptured or in front

[01:10:35] to do difficult things and they can still appeal to his battery angels of like

[01:10:40] hurting people that he loves it's yeah yeah I mean I kind of hope

[01:10:46] that we are sort of I don't want to dwell on all of that too much but

[01:10:51] I just I guess I just don't think that he's just gonna be oh yeah he's completely back to his

[01:10:56] old self unscored you know yeah no absolutely no no you don't come back from that no easily yeah yeah

[01:11:04] so yeah so they're in the car and they take off and you know I partly wonder if Rick would

[01:11:12] be like well maybe we can go back to the CRM and change it from the inside together or something

[01:11:17] like that but they have kids at home and so I feel like they're probably not gonna do that you know

[01:11:23] she mishones that let's go home and figure out how to protect our people so I would presume that

[01:11:28] they'll be intercepted that that's you know yeah but who knows I mean I did laugh that you could

[01:11:33] fucking bright yellow car I was like it's gonna be very visible from my helicopter but sure why not

[01:11:42] Rick and Michelle on it yeah Rick and Dana okay got in a note finally had a couple yeah I love

[01:11:49] the jolly song at the start I'm coming home just knowing what we do about them throwing each

[01:11:55] throwing themselves out of the helicopter I love the contrast of that kind of music um I think

[01:12:00] we found out in this episode that the numbers that we saw in the wall were the kill count um you

[01:12:07] know last episode it was Grime 68 I think he calls her out in this episode for for breaking the

[01:12:12] kill count and I did laugh because I was like I know your mad because she blew her cover but I

[01:12:16] wonder if you're also mad because she broke your record because that was um I laughed when Michelle

[01:12:21] said that aside from RG's light brown skin you wouldn't know she had anything to do with it um

[01:12:25] I thought that was quite cute um the setting was cool I like the rainwater plumbing then she said

[01:12:32] he has my eyes and then she said he's stubborn like you and she said like like his mom

[01:12:37] and then like sounds like he's exactly like you Michelle yeah the um the rainwater plumbing

[01:12:46] and like the computer is still running really tickled me about this environment that they

[01:12:50] find themselves in and it must have just fallen like the day before greenwood progress and

[01:12:57] redemption through innovation keep hope alive the doctor Lakshmi says he failed to leave the

[01:13:02] world better than I found it which was just a really harrowing note to read um but then Rick found

[01:13:07] the disco lights to kill the zeds after um I thought the zeds were really cool in this episode and

[01:13:12] I enjoyed very much the zed kebab that Michonne made while she was under the chandelier um the two on

[01:13:19] one stick I thought that was very cool and I am vindicated in saying that I thought the PRBs would

[01:13:25] be an important plot point the buttons that they could produce so yeah they became quite central

[01:13:29] to this episode yeah it's it's a way for Rick it's like a button to push to do that thing that

[01:13:36] you've been saying he does you know but and he tried to but then he resisted yeah Michonne kept hers

[01:13:43] clipped to her put her for a bit and then handed it back over um yeah that that's the end of my notes

[01:13:49] really just stellar episodes loved it yeah um we didn't talk a whole lot about the greenwood group

[01:13:59] and uh I don't think we will because I feel like the heart of it was the Rick and Michonne stuff but

[01:14:05] maybe in the listener feedback if you guys have things to say or if you're interested in us talking

[01:14:10] about that more we will maybe that'll be an ash alone bracing yeah yeah uh but my one note then is

[01:14:17] just the helicopter like people were like how could they survive that and they fell in the water

[01:14:24] and in an interview deny it Guerrera said Michonne knew they were flying low over water or she would

[01:14:29] not have done that yeah so yeah maybe a bit of suspension disbelief but yeah turn to you see

[01:14:37] their lives as well which was convenient that's right yeah yeah and Rick was not wearing his seat belt

[01:14:43] like a good soldier for some reason rinks helicopter tendencies are not great I don't think he's a

[01:14:48] great helicopter pilot i'm gonna be honest with you i think it's not in his skill set but here we are

[01:14:54] obvious threat to untold numbers of citizens are people if kills get up and

[01:14:58] are they slow moving chief yeah they're dead they're all messed up this is a walking deadcast news update

[01:15:07] just a really quick news item i thought this was cool it's not

[01:15:11] walking dead related but it's podcast related and that's that apple podcasts you know if you

[01:15:17] listen to us on the apple podcast app they now have transcriptions on there so you can go

[01:15:24] on there and go to the start playing our thing and on the bottom right there's a little if you're

[01:15:29] on your phone there's a little like speech bubble tap that and you'll see a transcription of

[01:15:34] what we're saying and it does a pretty darn good job of doing it you know it's not perfect because

[01:15:39] it's all like machine learning but it knows how to spell the shown and it capitalized CRM correctly

[01:15:45] I think and it didn't get rj right even AI is biased against rj it's like nope but uh it's

[01:15:54] pretty good and you can like scroll down and if you can tap something and it'll skip right to

[01:16:00] that part in the podcast so that's great pretty neat that's really cool i've thought for a while

[01:16:05] that transcription would be a good thing for us to have some as good that they're automated

[01:16:08] things it's quite a lot of work to do you're done i think there's a way for us to download it too and we

[01:16:15] can maybe even edit it or post it somewhere if we want so i might look at some of that yeah

[01:16:25] all right that is our show episode 571 thanks so much for listening everybody next episode

[01:16:31] is listen your feedback for the walking dead the ones who live season one episode for what we

[01:16:36] i betcha will be at the lot i think so on that note if you want to write in or leave a

[01:16:41] voice message about it you can find all our contact information at podcastcada.com

[01:16:46] yeah go there uh this episode's made possible by patreon supporters like k c ravenson who

[01:16:52] pledged their support at patreon.com slash jason cabassy so thank you to k c k c gets to hear

[01:16:58] our new podcast go over time segment i mentioned at the beginning where lucey and i talk about

[01:17:04] which character from a book movie or tv show we can most relate to and why

[01:17:09] yes line is barney the purple dinosaur minus naked

[01:17:15] all right that is our show thanks for listening don't get bit ashley edward wolf